Taliban Maneuvering for Position in Northwest

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Long War Journal is keeping close tabs on the disturbing advance of the Taliban into Afghan and Pakistani territory: Pakistani military, Taliban maneuver for position in northwest.

The Taliban blocked a military convoy from moving into the main town in Swat as rumors swirl that the military will launch an operation in the region over the next two days.

The Taliban surrounded a military convoy as it attempted to enter Mingora, the administrative seat of Swat. The Taliban surrounded the convoy “from all sides,” Dawn reported, and forced the military forces to retreat. The military “warned that if such a situation developed again, the armed forces would not hesitate to use force.”

The Taliban’s move against the military is the latest violation of the ceasefire agreement that put the Taliban in full control of Swat and consolidated their hold of the Malakand Division, an administrative region that encompasses more than one-third of the Northwest Frontier Province and includes the districts of Malakand, Swat, Shangla, Buner, Dir, Chitral, and Kohistan.

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149 comments

1 gmsc  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:54:35am

Sounds like we need a SWAT team in there.

2 Athos  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:56:08am

Give them an inch and they'll try to take a country.

3 marsl  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:57:00am

War is coming to America.

First Swat, then the Northwest Frontier Province. After that, Pakistan will fall and jihadis will have nukes. Just a question of time until a atomic bomb being smuggled into NYC and reduce it to rubble.

Dark times, indeed.

4 albusteve  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:57:18am

will the Pakis fight it out or won't they?...do they have a strategy?...where are the nukes and will the Taliban go for them?...where is AQ?

5 Dustyvet  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:57:19am

The Taliban surrounded a military convoy as it attempted to enter Mingora, the administrative seat of Swat. The Taliban surrounded the convoy “from all sides,” Dawn reported, and forced the military forces to retreat. The military “warned that if such a situation developed again, the armed forces would not hesitate to use force.”


"We're surrounded. That simplifies the problem."
- Attributed to Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller, USMC


"All right, they're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of
us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time"
- Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller, USMC

6 J.D.  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:58:58am
The Taliban’s move against the military is the latest violation of the ceasefire agreement that put the Taliban in full control of Swat and consolidated their hold of the Malakand Division



A contract is only as good as the people who sign it.

7 Athos  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 11:59:35am

re: #5 Dustyvet

The Taliban surrounded a military convoy as it attempted to enter Mingora, the administrative seat of Swat. The Taliban surrounded the convoy “from all sides,” Dawn reported, and forced the military forces to retreat. The military “warned that if such a situation developed again, the armed forces would not hesitate to use force.”

"We're surrounded. That simplifies the problem."
- Attributed to Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller, USMC

"All right, they're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of
us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time"
- Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller, USMC

The main thing it seems the Pakistani military / government seems to lack is the will to execute the plan. They threaten, they warn....but do they have the will to execute? I have my doubts based on their past performance....and I am thinking that this is a defacto civil war.

8 albusteve  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:00:05pm

re: #6 J.D.

A contract is only as good as the people who sign it.

nobody in that entire region gives a shit about ceasefires...regroup, reload and keep moving

9 Dustyvet  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:00:21pm

re: #7 Athos

The main thing it seems the Pakistani military / government seems to lack is the will to execute the plan. They threaten, they warn....but do they have the will to execute? I have my doubts based on their past performance....and I am thinking that this is a defacto civil war.

I agree fully!

10 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:00:29pm

Gut check time, Mr. President.

11 J.D.  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:00:52pm

re: #8 albusteve

nobody in that entire region gives a shit about ceasefires...regroup, reload and keep moving

Those ceasefires can be really handy in the short term.
Yes indeedy.

12 Athos  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:03:11pm

re: #11 J.D.

Those ceasefires hudna can be really handy in the short term.
Yes indeedy.

FTFY

13 Mad Mullah  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:05:12pm

The people Obama is releasing and dumping on our shores are no better than the Talban. I am talking about the psycho Gitmo detainees who when given a tv to watch, got so upset by seeing a female with bare arms that one of them took the tv and smashed it to the ground. Obama should hire them as personal white house staff instead, let him play russian roulette with his own life, not with the lives of other Americans.

14 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:05:46pm

This was probably all pretty much inevitable since Musharraf left. I'm certainly not a fan of dictators but the country just isn't capable of maintaining a democracy.

15 funky chicken  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:05:50pm
The Taliban surrounded the convoy “from all sides,” Dawn reported, and forced the military forces to retreat. The military “warned that if such a situation developed again, the armed forces would not hesitate to use force.”

Does anybody else wonder WTF is going on here? Why the hell did they "hesitate to use force" this time?

They are dealing with a violent insurrection within their own borders by 12th century religious savages, but they don't want to use force?

youcannotbeserious

16 J.D.  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:07:42pm

re: #12 Athos

FTFY

Thanks.

17 pink freud  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:07:57pm

re: #10 Cannadian Club Akbar

Gut check time, Mr. President.

The gut was photoshopped.

18 albusteve  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:08:33pm

the Mujahideen were not afraid of the Soviets so it would seem they have the will to pursue their goals...they have jihad in their blood and will never give up...and there is an almost endless supply of manpower if you consider time on their side

19 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:08:40pm
The Taliban surrounded a military convoy as it attempted to enter Mingora, the administrative seat of Swat. The Taliban surrounded the convoy “from all sides,” Dawn reported, and forced the military forces to retreat. The military “warned that if such a situation developed again, the armed forces would not hesitate to use force.”

With an attitude like that, it's no wonder that the UN likes to deploy Pakistani troops so frequently on "peackeeping" ops.

20 rawmuse  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:09:20pm

How does one retreat when surrounded from all sides?

21 Dustyvet  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:09:29pm

re: #15 funky chicken

Does anybody else wonder WTF is going on here? Why the hell did they "hesitate to use force" this time?

They are dealing with a violent insurrection within their own borders by 12th century religious savages, but they don't want to use force?

youcannotbeserious

Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best; it removes all that is base. All men are afraid in battle. The coward is the one who lets his fear overcome his sense of duty. Duty is the essen...


General George S. Patton

22 J.D.  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:09:45pm

The End of the World as We Know It
Welcome to the “post-American era.”
by Mark Steyn

According to an Earth Day survey, one third of schoolchildren between the ages of six and eleven think the earth will have been destroyed by the time they grow up. That’s great news, isn’t it? Not for the earth, I mean, but for “environmental awareness.” Congratulations to Al Gore, the Sierra Club, and the eco-propagandists of the public-education system in doing such a terrific job of traumatizing America’s moppets. Traditionally, most of the folks you see wandering the streets proclaiming the end of the world is nigh tend to be getting up there in years. It’s quite something to have persuaded millions of first-graders that their best days are behind them.

Call me crazy, but I’ll bet that in 15-20 years the planet will still be here along with most of the “environment” — your flora and fauna, your polar bears and three-toed tree sloths and whatnot. But geopolitically we’re in for a hell of a ride, and the world we end up with is unlikely to be as congenial as most Americans have gotten used to.

For example, Hillary Clinton said the other day that Pakistan posed a “mortal threat” to . . . Afghanistan? India? No, to the entire world! To listen to her, you’d think Pakistan was as scary as l’il Jimmy in the second grade’s mom’s SUV. She has a point: Asif Ali Zardari, the guy who’s nominally running the country, isn’t running anything. He’s ceding more and more turf to the local branch office of the Taliban. When the topic turns up in the news, we usually get vague references to the pro-Osama crowd controlling much of the “northwest,” which makes it sound as if these guys are the wilds of rural Idaho to Zardari’s Beltway. In fact, they’re now within some 60 miles of the capital, Islamabad — or, in American terms, a couple of I-95 exits north of Baltimore: In other words, they’re within striking distance of the administrative center of a nation of over 165 million people — and its nuclear weapons. That’s the “mortal threat.”
...

23 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:10:31pm
The latest Swat incident comes as the Pakistani military is signaling it plans on launching a new operation against the Taliban. Military officials told Dawn that an operation will be launched against the Swat Taliban in the next two days. The paramilitary Frontier Corps and even some regular Army units are said to be mobilizing for an operation, US intelligence officials toldThe Long War Journal.

Since the summer of 2007, the Pakistani military has been defeated in its three offensives designed to oust the Taliban, led by Fazlullah. These defeats prompted the government to promise the implementation of sharia and an end to military operations in exchange for peace.

The outlook is not good.

24 albusteve  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:11:14pm

re: #19 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

With an attitude like that, it's no wonder that the UN likes to deploy Pakistani troops so frequently on "peackeeping" ops.

moving down a road in convoy and surrounded...good lord...zero intelligence and gravely inferior tactics...did they not think this through?

25 Athos  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:12:26pm

re: #24 albusteve

moving down a road in convoy and surrounded...good lord...zero intelligence and gravely inferior tactics...did they not think this through?

Probably busy planning the child pornography and prostitution efforts for their next UN peacekeeping deployment.....

26 Dr. Shalit  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:12:53pm

Just Wondering -

Is it REAL or is it a "MEMOREX" of Pakistani History. A "MEMOREX" would be disorder as a prelude to another military takeover prior to crushing the rebels. It has happened before over there. Discussion?

-S-

27 J.D.  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:13:09pm

re: #17 pink freud

The gut was photoshopped.

But of course! LOL!

28 Dustyvet  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:13:56pm

re: #24 albusteve

moving down a road in convoy and surrounded...good lord...zero intelligence and gravely inferior tactics...did they not think this through?

Pakistani Military surplus rifles, dropped once and never fired....!


*spit*

/S

29 albusteve  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:15:02pm

re: #25 Athos

Probably busy planning the child pornography and prostitution efforts for their next UN peacekeeping deployment.....

while inviting massacre...I agree that there is little hope for these people and I will include Afghanistan in there...the cost and the effort to purge the Taliban is too great

30 brookly red  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:15:11pm

re: #20 rawmuse

How does one retreat when surrounded from all sides?

They were allowed to retreat, the Taliban has no need to push the issue, they have time on there side.

31 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:16:14pm

"Pakistan's chickensss are coming home to roost."
/doing best Rev. Wright impression.

32 albusteve  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:17:30pm

it's a relief to know BO and Co. are way out in front of this situation with three or four contingency plans with regard to our response etc...whew!

33 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:17:48pm

re: #28 Dustyvet

Pakistani Military surplus rifles, dropped once and never fired....!

*spit*

/S

This may help ease the ammo shortage here in the States!
/

34 IslandLibertarian  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:18:07pm

When did the Taliban get the green light to make these moves?
It was surely after Jan 20.......

I miss a strong America.

35 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:18:40pm

re: #26 Dr. Shalit

Just Wondering -

Is it REAL or is it a "MEMOREX" of Pakistani History. A "MEMOREX" would be disorder as a prelude to another military takeover prior to crushing the rebels. It has happened before over there. Discussion?

-S-

A coup would probably be the least worst solution to this situation.

36 Athos  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:18:56pm

Need to run, wife and daughter are feeling under the weather so have errands / shopping to do. BBL.

37 Opinionated  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:20:19pm
The Taliban’s move against the military is the latest violation of the ceasefire agreement

I'm beginning to get a hint that you can't trust agreements made with Islamics.

38 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:20:36pm

Maybe Hillary can go there and have "a chat" with the Taliban. That almost always works.
///

39 rawmuse  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:21:27pm

re: #38 Cannadian Club Akbar

Maybe Hillary can go there and have "a chat" with the Taliban. That almost always works.
///

Don't forget the Reset button.

40 sonofsheldon  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:21:29pm

Hmm, appeasement as a basis for peace fails again. I wonder if there's some kind of pattern here.

41 IslandLibertarian  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:21:48pm

U.S. policy: We will have dialog, and apologize.
Taliban policy: We will advance, and kill you.

/yeah, I'm not giving "0" any slack.

42 J.D.  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:22:28pm

re: #39 rawmuse

Don't forget the Reset button.

Yeah.
That fixes everything.

43 albusteve  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:23:04pm

re: #37 Opinionated

I'm beginning to get a hint that you can't trust agreements made with Islamics.

they KNOW they can't trust each other...I don't want to make a bigoted judgement but it's always been this way...there is no honor among thieves and they are all thieves

44 Dr. Shalit  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:23:39pm

re: #39 rawmuse

Don't forget the Reset button.

rawmuse -

"...That Was Easy!..."

-S-

45 Opinionated  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:24:24pm

North Korea says it has restarted nuclear facilities

Our enemies are partying like it's 1977-1981 -the Carter years.

46 rawmuse  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:24:49pm
47 IslandLibertarian  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:25:30pm

re: #45 Opinionated

North Korea says it has restarted nuclear facilities

Our enemies are partying like it's 1977-1981 post Jan 20, 2009 -the Carter "0" years.

Be here now!

48 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:25:48pm

"All bombing of a Taliban strong hold was called off due to a swing set captured on satellite images." In a related story, the Taliban asked for tetanus boosters for the kids from said rusty swing set. No comment from Jenny McCarthy was reported at this time.
////

49 albusteve  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:26:19pm

re: #46 rawmuse

Summary justice by the Taliban

I can't watch that stuff...I saw the Danny Pearl thing and some others...can not do it anymore

50 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:26:37pm

#48 A bombing
PIMF

51 Opinionated  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:30:56pm

re: #47 IslandLibertarian

Be here now!

I don't want to, it's too frightening. And it's just begun.

52 IslandLibertarian  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:31:01pm

re: #49 albusteve

I can't watch that stuff...I saw the Danny Pearl thing and some others...can not do it anymore

This needs to be shown on the 6:00 pm news world wide, U.N., high schools, every ef'n university.
You shall know the truth and the truth will set you free.

53 Kosh's Shadow  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:31:46pm

So how close are the Taliban to the Pakistani nuclear facilities?
I hope they've secured their nukes, but that would probably take giving them to another country, and I don't exactly see Pakistan giving their nukes to anyone I'd trust with them.

54 Bob Dillon  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:32:36pm

re: #7 Athos

The main thing it seems the Pakistani military / government seems to lack is the will to execute the plan. They threaten, they warn....but do they have the will to execute? I have my doubts based on their past performance....and I am thinking that this is a defacto civil war.

- for nearly the past TWO YEARS (including the Bush administration), we have had repeated Pakistan public opinion polls showing that appx. 75 percent of the Pakistan public view that "Implementing strict Sharia law throughout Pakistan" as "important" for the Pakistan government.

-- See a summary of this at:
[Link: www.unitedstatesaction.com...]

55 albusteve  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:32:45pm

re: #53 Kosh's Shadow

So how close are the Taliban to the Pakistani nuclear facilities?
I hope they've secured their nukes, but that would probably take giving them to another country, and I don't exactly see Pakistan giving their nukes to anyone I'd trust with them.

I hope the phones are open with India

56 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:33:45pm

our president is focusing on afghanistan, or so he says. it appears the "ta-lee-bon" are doing the same. will obama be a badass or will he be a wuss?

this is his first test. he can either bring some serious heat against the medieval savages or look like a weakling who talked the the talk but won't walk the walk.

What's it gonna be Mr President?

57 J.D.  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:34:00pm

re: #53 Kosh's Shadow

So how close are the Taliban to the Pakistani nuclear facilities?
I hope they've secured their nukes, but that would probably take giving them to another country, and I don't exactly see Pakistan giving their nukes to anyone I'd trust with them.

See the article at #22.

When the topic turns up in the news, we usually get vague references to the pro-Osama crowd controlling much of the “northwest,” which makes it sound as if these guys are the wilds of rural Idaho to Zardari’s Beltway. In fact, they’re now within some 60 miles of the capital, Islamabad — or, in American terms, a couple of I-95 exits north of Baltimore: In other words, they’re within striking distance of the administrative center of a nation of over 165 million people — and its nuclear weapons. That’s the “mortal threat.”
58 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:34:45pm

re: #53 Kosh's Shadow
This article has been making the rounds.....
Does Pakistan's Taliban Surge Raise a Nuclear Threat?

I haven't had time to read it yet.

59 Jimash  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:35:53pm

I wonder what Hamid Gul is doing with his time ?

60 Banner  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:36:45pm

what, did these intellectual giants actually expect the taliban to honor a cease fire?

The stupidity of some people never ceases to amaze me, it's like they've never studied any kind of history, or any culture ever.

61 Opinionated  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:36:54pm

Don't worry people, any week now Obama is going to show just how tough he is really.

He is going to have a face to face meeting and tell the foreign leader that he will accept no excuse. He will demand obedience. He will tell the foreign leader to bow to his directive or there will be hell to pay. And he will mean it.

Hopefully, Netanyahu will tell him- nicely- to shove it up his ass.

62 albusteve  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:36:56pm

re: #58 Killgore Trout

This article has been making the rounds.....
Does Pakistan's Taliban Surge Raise a Nuclear Threat?

I haven't had time to read it yet.

Time?....is the title a joke?...DUH?...the Taliban won't use them they will sell them

63 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:39:00pm

62 albusteve
4/25/09 12:36:56 pm reply quote 0downupfavoritereport

re: #58 Killgore Trout

This article has been making the rounds.....
Does Pakistan's Taliban Surge Raise a Nuclear Threat?

I haven't had time to read it yet.

Time?....is the title a joke?...DUH?...the Taliban won't use them they will sell them

Ya know India is watching.

64 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:39:02pm

re: #58 Killgore Trout
Maybe this is will work out in the end. If Pakistan falls we enter and take their nukes. Pakistan breaks up into 2-3 seprate entities and without nukes of a central government to deal with we can take care of the taliban and stabilize Afghanistan.

65 IslandLibertarian  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:39:06pm

re: #60 Banner

"There was a frog sitting by a stream. Along came a scorpion..........."

/Rainbow-Unicorns have no common sense.

66 jcm  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:39:06pm

The Taliban won't give up. Until they have won or are dead.

Binary solution set. That's not me talking, that's the Taliban.

67 Dustyvet  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:40:27pm

Former CIA chief Goss: I can’t believe what a shameless liar Pelosi is


He doesn’t name any names but there’s no question who he’s aiming at.

Today, I am slack-jawed to read that members claim to have not understood that the techniques on which they were briefed were to actually be employed; or that specific techniques such as “waterboarding” were never mentioned. It must be hard for most Americans of common sense to imagine how a member of Congress can forget being told about the interrogations of Sept. 11 mastermind Khalid Sheik Mohammed. In that case, though, perhaps it is not amnesia but political expedience.

Let me be clear. It is my recollection that:

– The chairs and the ranking minority members of the House and Senate intelligence committees, known as the Gang of Four, were briefed that the CIA was holding and interrogating high-value terrorists.

– We understood what the CIA was doing.

– We gave the CIA our bipartisan support.

– We gave the CIA funding to carry out its activities.

– On a bipartisan basis, we asked if the CIA needed more support from Congress to carry out its mission against al-Qaeda.

I do not recall a single objection from my colleagues.

[Link: rpc.blogrolling.com...]

68 IslandLibertarian  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:41:20pm

re: #64 Killgore Trout

two to three separate entities, but none called "Talibanistan".

69 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:41:30pm

re: #62 albusteve

Read the article....

....if Pakistan collapses, the U.S. military is primed to enter the country and secure as many of those weapons as it can, according to U.S. officials.
.....
For starters, according to U.S. and Pakistani officials, there is no way a complete nuclear weapon can be plucked from Islamabad's stockpile, which is protected by about 10,000 of the Pakistani military's most elite troops. The guts of the nuclear warhead are kept separate from the rest of the device, and a nuclear detonation is impossible without both pieces. Additionally, the delivery vehicle — plane or missile — is also segregated from the warhead components.
70 albusteve  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:41:55pm

re: #64 Killgore Trout

Maybe this is will work out in the end. If Pakistan falls we enter and take their nukes. Pakistan breaks up into 2-3 seprate entities and without nukes of a central government to deal with we can take care of the taliban and stabilize Afghanistan.

in that event, we will have that coveted 51st state

71 Bob Dillon  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:42:27pm

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

[put a fork in Pakistan]
Islamabad officials have moved paramilitary forces to block a potential Taliban advance into the nation's capital as US officials question Pakistan’s ability to stop the creeping insurgency.
...
"The Pakistani Army is sitting on the sidelines as the Taliban march all the way to Islamabad's back door," one intelligence official said.
"Why is the government putting inferior troops in the path of the Taliban, only to watch them get chewed up and spit out. Where is the Army?
The Army is purposefully sitting on the sidelines, either demoralized by losses or unwilling to fight, while Pakistan is burning."

72 yma o hyd  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:42:46pm

re: #58 Killgore Trout

This article has been making the rounds.....
Does Pakistan's Taliban Surge Raise a Nuclear Threat?

I haven't had time to read it yet.

From that article:

'As America's top military officer, Mullen has traveled regularly to Pakistan — twice in just the past two weeks — for talks with his Pakistani counterpart, General Ashfaq Kayani, and others.'
(My emphasis)

Firstly - that is not exacly confidence-inducing, is it ...

But, secondly - thats the same top military officer who strangely (NOT!) had no time to see the Cheif of the IDF, Gen Gabi Ashkenazi, when he visited Washington a few weeks ago.

73 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:43:10pm

re: #70 albusteve

It's an awful chunk of realestate. I doubt we'd really want it. Let's invade Tahiti instead.

74 debutaunt  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:43:24pm

re: #38 Cannadian Club Akbar

Maybe Hillary can go there and have "a chat" with the Taliban. That almost always works.
///

As long as she gets them to sign an agreement and those silly Talibansters don't cross their fingers.

75 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:43:50pm

re: #72 yma o hyd

that is not exacly confidence-inducing, is it ...


Heh, no it's not.

76 stuiec  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:44:29pm

re: #15 funky chicken

Does anybody else wonder WTF is going on here? Why the hell did they "hesitate to use force" this time?

They are dealing with a violent insurrection within their own borders by 12th century religious savages, but they don't want to use force?

youcannotbeserious

Are you sure that the Pakistani military object to a Taliban takeover of the political system in Pakistan? Certainly the military are no great fans of representative democracy -- maybe they think a theocracy will be more to their taste.

77 albusteve  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:44:39pm

re: #69 Killgore Trout

Read the article....

I did read it...nothing new...the question is how many military people will turn to the Taliban?...Arabs are very patient....there was nothing there to indicate key components have been flown out of Pakistan...maybe they have, if not it's time

78 Opinionated  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:44:45pm

re: #64 Killgore Trout

If Pakistan falls we enter and take their nukes.

You do realize who is President, don't you?

We have to pray the Indians are sufficiently concerned to do something creative and successful.

And pray harder a nuclear war doesn't break out.

And pray extra hard that Obama and Clinton don't make a bad situation worse.

79 jcm  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:45:32pm

re: #75 Killgore Trout

Heh, no it's not.

I have a high degree of confidence..... that's it completely FUBARed.

80 debutaunt  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:45:36pm

re: #64 Killgore Trout

Maybe this is will work out in the end. If Pakistan falls we enter and take their nukes. Pakistan breaks up into 2-3 seprate entities and without nukes of a central government to deal with we can take care of the taliban and stabilize Afghanistan.

Tah -Dah!

81 albusteve  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:45:59pm

re: #73 Killgore Trout

It's an awful chunk of realestate. I doubt we'd really want it. Let's invade Tahiti instead.

the Tiki Bar is OPEN!

82 IslandLibertarian  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:46:48pm

re: #73 Killgore Trout

It's an awful chunk of realestate. I doubt we'd really want it. Let's invade Tahiti instead.



You first..........

83 hous bin pharteen  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:47:42pm

OH NO!

SEATLE IS IN DANGER!

THEN SAN FRAN!

oh....?
What?
They are going to surrender?
...............never mind

84 Bob Dillon  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:48:06pm

re: #80 debutaunt

Tah -Dah!

Only problem is that we admit that we do not know where all the Pak nukes are stashed.

85 stuiec  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:49:48pm

re: #69 Killgore Trout

Read the article....

Are you quite sure that once the Taliban assume power (if that should happen), the Pakistani military commanders won't obey an order from the new Taliban government to assemble and arm those warheads in anticipation of a US invasion?

Are you quite sure that the US Congress will back the President in an invasion of Pakistan, even a Taliban-led one?

Entering Pakistan isn't as easy as barging through the swinging doors of the saloon.

86 Bob Dillon  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:50:21pm

re: #81 albusteve

the Tiki Bar is OPEN!

[Link: www.clubbalihai.com...]

The bar with the best view in the world.

87 debutaunt  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:50:56pm

re: #82 IslandLibertarian


You first..........

Stunning!

88 DistantThunder  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:51:31pm

KT's article mentions that Pakistan had recently release AQ KHAN from house arrest - they refer him to the Johnny Appleseed of nuclear proliferation.

Our grandchildren will shake their heads and wonder how we could have let such a threat develop.

89 Cato the Elder  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:51:47pm

I never thought I'd end up missing Musharraf.

But then, the one who initiated the Islamization of formerly secular Pakistan was our good friend and close ally, Zia ul-Haq.

Have we always been this good at picking our buddies?

90 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:52:01pm

re: #80 debutaunt

....step 3: Profit

91 jcm  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:52:04pm

re: #84 Bobibutu

Only problem is that we admit that we do not know where all the Pak nukes are stashed.

We assisted with Pak nuc security. Secure facilities with the facilities for storage and maintenance aren't common. I think we might have a better handle on them than you might suspect.

92 rawmuse  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:53:06pm

Hands Off Tahiti!

93 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:53:10pm

re: #88 DistantThunder

Yeah, that's really bad. I think we could probably secure the Pakistani nukes but Kahn is a problem.

94 Render  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:53:17pm

re: #34 IslandLibertarian

No.

They've (the Taliban/al-Q) been working on this for at least three years. Or about the same time their largest form of income switched from Gulf State oil sheiks to Helmand Province poppy fields. The Predator strikes were only slowing them down, proving once again that air power cannot take ground. There was a brief halt in the Predator strikes around the time of our presidential transition that may have allowed the enemy some breathing space. But it was also around that time that the Shadow Army was first seen, in uniform, operating in organized combat squads, in broad daylight. They were also seen (sorta) in an al-Jazzera video from Swat, defeating a Pakistani Army column that included elements of a veteran Motorized Infantry Regiment (at least two companies in strength), a platoon (five) of Type 59/105 tanks, at least two Cobra helicopter gunships, and reported strikes by Pakistani F-16's.

They sent the tanks down the road by themselves first. When the tanks took dozens of RPG rounds from well trained Shadow Army squads, they broke and ran back through the truck column. The Pak infantry dismounted their trucks and moved off down the road toward the ambush point. A few rounds were fired and the infantry came tumbling back down the road, mounted their trucks and both trucks and tanks hauled off back to their bases while a Cobra unleashed a single volley of rockets in the general direction of the Shadow Army positions. Al-Jizz reported the air strikes as happening much later.

The tanks came from the local armor training school. Type 59/105's are obsolete even by Pakistani standards.

The real "strength" of the Pak Army remains squatting on the Indian border. Given that there are a large number of Taliban supporters within both the Pak military and ISI, it's very unlikely that the regular Pak Army will ever be involved in this war - against the Taliban.

MAKE
PLANS
ACCORDINGLY,
R

95 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:53:46pm

re: #92 rawmuse

Tahitian sovereignty is a myth!

96 debutaunt  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:54:12pm

re: #90 Killgore Trout

....step 3: Profit

Fer instance?

97 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:54:41pm

I think I have pig flu.

98 albusteve  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:55:27pm

re: #86 Bobibutu

[Link: www.clubbalihai.com...]

The bar with the best view in the world.

I'm halfway there bro....

99 debutaunt  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:55:43pm

re: #97 Killgore Trout

I think I have pig flu.

You could lose a few pounds.

100 albusteve  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:56:55pm

re: #97 Killgore Trout

I think I have pig flu.

ha!...what a ham

101 Dustyvet  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:57:38pm

re: #99 debutaunt

You could lose a few pounds.

So could she...:)

Image: AAAAAgSeF9UAAAAAAFtvGg.jpg

102 stuiec  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:58:04pm

re: #97 Killgore Trout

I think I have pig flu.

Wait - the pig flu? All the way from Mexico City?

Why was there no flying pig alert?

103 Bob Dillon  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:58:20pm

re: #91 jcm

We assisted with Pak nuc security. Secure facilities with the facilities for storage and maintenance aren't common. I think we might have a better handle on them than you might suspect.

Agreed. Just pointing to what was said by a U.S. General a month or so back IIRC.

104 Dustyvet  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 12:59:59pm

re: #102 stuiec

Wait - the pig flu? All the way from Mexico City?

Why was there no flying pig alert?

Flying Pigs...death from above!...:)


/S

105 jcm  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 1:01:47pm

re: #103 Bobibutu

Agreed. Just pointing to what was said by a U.S. General a month or so back IIRC.

I be very disappointed if we let them fall into Taliban hands. That would have been an intelligence and planning failure of catastrophic proportions.

106 IslandLibertarian  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 1:02:10pm

re: #94 Render

No.

They've (the Taliban/al-Q) been working on this for at least three years.

Making plans and executing said plans are not the same.
Would these events have transpired with a president McCain?
No way of ever knowing, I know, and I will not go down that road.
We have an "Apologist in Chief" and I think that is a factor.

107 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 1:02:16pm

We should drop pigs from Mexico City into Pakistan. THE HORROR!

108 albusteve  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 1:05:42pm

let's just stay home....


109 debutaunt  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 1:06:37pm

re: #104 Dustyvet

Flying Pigs...death from above!...:)


/S

Les Nessman would do a fine live report.

110 Nevergiveup  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 1:06:57pm

Look. I haven't been able to follow the detailed events, but why don't we just blast these bastards off the face of the earth. Are we being PC again? Listen Washington, this is a WAR, that is spelled W A R. Got it. This ain't no police action or legal procedure. Gee I'm getting mad. OK I just had a fight with my wife, but that aside, I's still be mad. And it's not like I can yell at her. I'll be groveling for forgiveness from her in 5,4,3,2,1

PS-I was right, but after 25 years it's hard to tell

111 Dustyvet  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 1:07:41pm

re: #107 Cannadian Club Akbar

We should drop pigs from Mexico City into Pakistan. THE HORROR!

Image: il_430xN.60178820.jpg

112 gregb  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 1:08:18pm

Re: giving and inch, maybe it's take a couple countries like Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, etc.

Re: swine-avian flu, so maybe pigs really can fly?

I like the Russian solution, bury them in pigskins and see how many multiply.

113 DEZes  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 1:08:41pm

Anyone know how many mobile nukes the Paki's have?

114 Nevergiveup  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 1:09:03pm

re: #107 Cannadian Club Akbar

We should drop pigs from Mexico City into Pakistan. THE HORROR!

Shit the best idea I've heard all day.

115 Dustyvet  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 1:09:10pm

re: #109 debutaunt

Les Nessman would do a fine live report.

I swear, as God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly!

116 abolitionist  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 1:10:54pm

This flu look serious: WHO warns of flu pandemic as Mexico City frets

"It has pandemic potential because it is infecting people," WHO Director-General Margaret Chan said in Geneva.

"However, we cannot say on the basis of currently available laboratory, epidemiological and clinical evidence whether or not it will indeed cause a pandemic.

The new flu strain -- a mixture of swine, human and avian flu viruses -- is still poorly understood and the situation is evolving quickly, Chan said.
[snip]

Mexico has said the new flu had killed at least 20 people and could be to blame for 48 more deaths. In all, more than 1,000 suspected cases have been reported nationwide. Most of the dead were aged 25 to 45, a worrying sign because a hallmark of past pandemics has been high fatalities among healthy young adults.

117 Nevergiveup  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 1:11:14pm

Well I'll be going back and forth between the Yanks-Sox and the NFL draft. Seems like half the Yankee team went on the DL today?

118 Bob Dillon  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 1:11:28pm

re: #105 jcm

I be very disappointed if we let them fall into Taliban hands. That would have been an intelligence and planning failure of catastrophic proportions.

Yes and it's not like we haven't seen this one coming for some time now (pre-Obama).

There have to be some interesting discussions with India's counterparts going on as well.

Gonna be a long, hot, challenging summer.

119 debutaunt  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 1:12:24pm

re: #117 Nevergiveup

Well I'll be going back and forth between the Yanks-Sox and the NFL draft. Seems like half the Yankee team went on the DL today?

And your wife has some sort of problem with you, you say?

120 Nevergiveup  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 1:14:34pm

re: #119 debutaunt

And your wife has some sort of problem with you, you say?

Nah that's over. We had alittle tiff. A little disagreement about one of the kids. She won , I lost, as usual. I am getting drunk and ready to grill the shrimp, lobster, and lamb.

121 Kosh's Shadow  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 1:15:36pm

Another question is, if the Taliban do get the nuke parts, will enough of the Pakistani technicians help put them together?
I would expect so, actually. For delivery mechanisms, terrorist techniques like trucks and donkeys are more likely than missiles.

And I don't think the Taliban are so concerned about retaliation, either. What are we going to do, nuke them into the stone age?

122 Dustyvet  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 1:15:55pm

re: #120 Nevergiveup

Nah that's over. We had alittle tiff. A little disagreement about one of the kids. She won , I lost, as usual. I am getting drunk and ready to grill the shrimp, lobster, and lamb.

Oh cool, Surf and Baa dinner...:)

123 debutaunt  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 1:16:49pm

re: #122 Dustyvet

Oh cool, Surf and Baa dinner...:)

I was thinking surf-surf-baaaaaaa.

124 Nevergiveup  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 1:16:59pm

re: #121 Kosh's Shadow

Another question is, if the Taliban do get the nuke parts, will enough of the Pakistani technicians help put them together?
I would expect so, actually. For delivery mechanisms, terrorist techniques like trucks and donkeys are more likely than missiles.

And I don't think the Taliban are so concerned about retaliation, either. What are we going to do, nuke them into the stone age?

Why don't we drop videos of me peeing on some Korans? I volunteer for that job.

125 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 1:17:07pm

#120
So, alcohol IS the answer?

126 Nevergiveup  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 1:17:35pm

re: #122 Dustyvet

Oh cool, Surf and Baa dinner...:)

And the shrimp and lobster are the kosher type!

127 albusteve  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 1:17:40pm

re: #125 Cannadian Club Akbar

#120
So, alcohol IS the answer?

man does not live by bread alone

128 debutaunt  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 1:18:10pm

re: #125 Cannadian Club Akbar

#120
So, alcohol IS the answer?

Odd, because he's a dentist and has access to the cool drugs.

129 rightside  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 1:18:19pm

re: #110 Nevergiveup

You forgot the lobster today, didn't you?

130 spinmore  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 1:18:33pm

Moral Relativism must always apply when one is 'tempted' to pass judgment on others; unless of course one believes in American exceptional-ism. This is the hypocrisy of the Left.

131 Nevergiveup  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 1:18:37pm

re: #125 Cannadian Club Akbar

#120
So, alcohol IS the answer?

And learning to give up beg for forgiveness real fast rather than waiting since it's gonna happen eventually anyway.

132 Bob Dillon  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 1:19:01pm

re: #113 DEZes

Anyone know how many mobile nukes the Paki's have?

Maybe India. I read an estimate of ~60 warheads total. Nothing on mobile.

here it is from FAS

[Link: www.fas.org...]

133 Nevergiveup  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 1:19:16pm

re: #128 debutaunt

Odd, because he's a dentist and has access to the cool drugs.

Can't my pee gets tested almost every month

134 Nevergiveup  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 1:19:38pm

re: #129 rightside

You forgot the lobster today, didn't you?

No I got it and she was happy about that.

135 jcm  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 1:20:40pm

re: #118 Bobibutu

Yes and it's not like we haven't seen this one coming for some time now (pre-Obama).

There have to be some interesting discussions with India's counterparts going on as well.

Gonna be a long, hot, challenging summer.

The Pakistan is swirling the drain, the Norks are uppity, Iran is pressing forward.

Every single one has been cooking for a long time, and all going critical about the same time.

And we've got a naif as POTUS cutting the military.

Bad mojo.

137 spinmore  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 1:21:06pm

Off Topic (sorry)

Lance
by cjmiller

Winning is a crime
But only if you're Lance
The Frenchman holds the cup
And he pulls down his pants

The rider takes a leak
And L'Equipe takes one too
The rider's in a vile
L'Equipe's is in the news

He's never been found dirty
It matters none the same
Clean piss is always dirty
If Armstrong is your name

138 DEZes  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 1:21:57pm

re: #132 Bobibutu

Maybe India. I read an estimate of ~60 warheads total. Nothing on mobile.

here it is from FAS

[Link: www.fas.org...]

I saw that too, I saw in another article of possible mobiles.
heres a link.
[Link: www.fas.org...]

140 shiplord kirel  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 1:24:09pm

The Pakistani armed forces could crush the Taliban if they wanted to, but that would have dire political consequences from the media-enslaved (pro-Talib, anti-American) masses in the rest of the country, as well as financial retaliation from the Talibs' primarily Arab backers.
This highlights the dangers of combining mass media and a more or less democratic voting process with a baclward and gullible population.

141 Bob Dillon  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 1:26:42pm

re: #135 jcm

agreed.

142 shiplord kirel  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 1:38:56pm

Pakistan today and Iran in the 70s are very different places in many respects but there are nevertheless some alarming parallels beyond the obvious one of Islamic mlitancy.
We have an idealistic and inexperienced administration in Washington, and a certain misplaced confidence in the strength and staying power of the other country's westernized elite. A constant factor, of course, is the media meme of insurgent forces (Khomeini then, the Taliban now) as the James Dean characters in a global melodrama.
I would not be surprised to see the Pakistani government collapse and the Taliban roll into Islamabad in a matter of weeks.

143 Dr. Shalit  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 1:56:21pm

re: #142 shiplord kirel

Pakistan today and Iran in the 70s are very different places in many respects but there are nevertheless some alarming parallels beyond the obvious one of Islamic mlitancy.
We have an idealistic and inexperienced administration in Washington, and a certain misplaced confidence in the strength and staying power of the other country's westernized elite. A constant factor, of course, is the media meme of insurgent forces (Khomeini then, the Taliban now) as the James Dean characters in a global melodrama.
I would not be surprised to see the Pakistani government collapse and the Taliban roll into Islamabad in a matter of weeks.

shiplord kirel -

Unless the Pakistani Army moves quickly and decisively - you are correct.

-S-

144 Render  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 2:31:46pm

re: #106 IslandLibertarian

I'm reasonably confident the the Talib/al-Q are quite unconcerned by who sits in our White House. Ubel might want to make nice-nice with them, but the Talib ain't interested. They never were and never will be, it's a holy war for them.

===

(nice job Al Davis, ya old fart, speed kills)

Where was I? Oh yeah...

===

IL: The Taliban/al-Q were planning this Shadow Army series of operations while W was in office. They began these operations while W was in office. They continue these operations while Ubel is in office. McCain wouldn't have had any other viable options available then Ubel or W have.

===

One cannot invade ones own supply lines without suffering the obvious results.

TRAFFIC
JAM,
R

145 Zimriel  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 3:26:52pm

re: #64 Killgore Trout

Maybe this is will work out in the end. If Pakistan falls we enter and take their nukes. Pakistan breaks up into 2-3 seprate entities and without nukes of a central government to deal with we can take care of the taliban and stabilize Afghanistan.

"We"? Obama is not George W Bush; he's not going to do squat unilaterally. If India did it, get ready for dozens of millions of deaths, a few exploded nukes and worldwide condemnation of Indian "aggression". Obama might then turn around (even if he said it was okay to begin with) and deplore India's "disproportionate" action.

/not angry at you, just frustrated at what looks like a trap with no nice way out

146 Zimriel  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 3:30:52pm

re: #89 Cato the Elder

I never thought I'd end up missing Musharraf.

But then, the one who initiated the Islamization of formerly secular Pakistan was our good friend and close ally, Zia ul-Haq.

Have we always been this good at picking our buddies?

Yes, while this is going on, let's have another round of "blame America". That'll be productive.
/

147 grumpy old codger  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 4:51:11pm

I suggest the USAF move lots of daisycutters and airbombs into the area. We can open up NWT and Swat as bombing target ranges. It would keep the enviroNazis happy, as we could then stop bombing Nevada. On the ground, anything that moved could be considered a target of opportunity. After all, if they want to go and meet allah, isn't it right to help them?

148 Turtler  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 4:59:26pm

Ok, this is bad.

Poll time: Who would win in an all-out war between the Anti-Islamist portions of Pakistan and the Jihad, assuming that it is a war to the death?

I'm not so sure.

The Pakistani military would seem to have a crushing advantage over the disaffected tribals and foreign Jihadis, but their performance has been mixed so far, and while the supply and equipment balances are firmly in their side, that could change if Iran chose to start aiding them.

Even better: while the Pakistani military has a clear numerical superiority on paper, we don't know how reliable that is, or to what degree that has been neutralized by Islamism in the ranks.

Not good, not good, not good.

149 stuiec  Sat, Apr 25, 2009 5:37:45pm

re: #121 Kosh's Shadow

Another question is, if the Taliban do get the nuke parts, will enough of the Pakistani technicians help put them together?
I would expect so, actually. For delivery mechanisms, terrorist techniques like trucks and donkeys are more likely than missiles.

And I don't think the Taliban are so concerned about retaliation, either. What are we going to do, nuke them into the stone age?

If the Taliban become the government of Pakistan, will enough of the Pakistani technicians accept certain death in order to keep usable (assembled and armed) nukes out of the hands of the Taliban?

Not bloody likely, in my opinion.


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