The Red Museum

Middle East • Views: 2,449

Here’s Jerry Weinberger’s Iraq Journal, on a visit to Saddam’s chamber of horrors.

There is nothing cold about the faces one sees on the walls of the Red Museum, where from 1979 until the uprising in 1991, Saddam tortured and killed in pursuit of the Kurdish rebels. Though Saddam usually buried his victims in mass graves as far as possible from where they lived, he had no scruples about compiling a photographic record of the killing. The first photo one sees freezes the blood. It looks like a picture in a college yearbook: a class of 13 young men, perhaps a debating or a Latin club, except for the anxiety evident in their eyes. The legend informs that it was taken in the prison in 1986 and that all but one of these young men were tortured and executed. Then photo after photo shows a bloody body crumpled at the foot of the stake to which the victim was tied to be shot. In one photo, two Baathist security men, grinning widely beneath their mustaches, hold up a headless corpse, their free hands raised in the victory salute. Next comes a picture of three women—child, mother, and grandmother—with faces frozen in fear just before their execution for suspected connection with rebels in the mountains. Numerous images record the last minutes in the lives of such women and children.

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269 comments
1 Kragar  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:54:39am

Nothing about panties on the head, so how can it be torture?

/

2 debutaunt  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:55:12am

Incomprehensible horror.

3 Cato  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:55:31am

OT already

[Link: news.sky.com...]

4 MrSilverDragon  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:55:44am

Anyone who had any doubts about taking Saddam out of power should read this, and if they still believe we did wrong, they're a lost cause.

5 VegasRick  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:56:09am

re: #1 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Nothing about panties on the head, so how can it be torture?

/

"At least he didn't waterboard anyone!"
/pelousy

6 Kragar  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:56:21am

re: #4 MrSilverDragon

Anyone who had any doubts about taking Saddam out of power should read this, and if they still believe we did wrong, they're a lost cause.

They know, and they are long lost.

7 ilzito guacamolito  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:57:32am

Will this museum be on Pelosi's itinerary the next time she is in Iraq?

8 MrSilverDragon  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:58:10am

re: #6 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

They know, and they are long lost.

One would hope that this light would at least be a catalyst towards changing their minds... but perhaps that's the optimistic part of me, which rarely makes an appearance.

9 VegasRick  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:58:14am

re: #4 MrSilverDragon

Anyone who had any doubts about taking Saddam out of power should read this, and if they still believe we did wrong, they're a lost cause.

To them, it's only wrong if a Republican does it.

10 Son of the Black Dog  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:58:24am

I just read the article from the links. Horrifying.

11 Kragar  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:58:47am

re: #7 ilzito guacamolito

Will this museum be on Pelosi's itinerary the next time she is in Iraq?

Pelosi was not informed about the Museum directly, but one of her staffers was supposed to go and brief her.

/

12 simonml  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:59:38am

re: #4 MrSilverDragon

Anyone who had any doubts about taking Saddam out of power should read this, and if they still believe we did wrong, they're a lost cause.

"We had no right to invade that friendly peaceful nation!"

/

13 VegasRick  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:59:46am

re: #11 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Pelosi was not informed about the Museum directly, but one of her staffers was supposed to go and brief her.

/

The CIA misled her.

14 ErnieG  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:59:48am

To paraphrase Crocodile Dundee: "That's not torture. THIS is torture.

15 Son of the Black Dog  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:00:39am

The MSM and the left in this country need to get a clue as to what real torture is. As opposed to something that resembles a fraternity pledge hazing from the 1960's.

16 redc1c4  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:00:41am

re: #11 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Pelosi was not informed about the Museum directly, but one of her staffers was supposed to go and brief her.

/

the staffer's going to put panties on her head?

17 VegasRick  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:01:51am

re: #16 redc1c4

the staffer's going to put panties on her head?

Red, did you and Killian get that thing worked out?

18 simonml  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:02:38am

But but but Saddam was elected democratically with 99.9% of the vote. He must be a good guy to get more votes than Obama

/

19 sattv4u2  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:03:09am

"If it wasn't for the failed policies of past republican administrations Saddam, who we had contained, would not have had to resort to putting down the violent protests our CIA fostered in the sovreing country of Iraq"

//auditioning for a job as Nana Pelosi's speech writer

20 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:03:38am

That is really bad but we all know who the REAL terrorists & torturers are...Bush & Cheney!

///

21 funky chicken  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:03:41am

GHWB should have listened to Schwartzkopf instead of Powell and the Saudis.

Imagine the billions we wouldn't have spent patrolling no fly zones. Imagine no Khobar Towers bombing (our large Saudi footprint was for support of those no fly zones.) Imagine no oil for palaces program greasing Kofi Annan's palms.

etc, etc, etc

22 redc1c4  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:03:43am

re: #17 VegasRick

Red, did you and Killian get that thing worked out?

naw.......... Killgore's still mad at me

23 Kragar  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:04:53am

re: #18 simonml

But but but Saddam was elected democratically with 99.9% of the vote. He must be a good guy to get more votes than Obama

/

You aint seen nothing yet.

/Acorn

24 opnion  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:05:02am

re: #15 Son of the Black Dog

The MSM and the left in this country need to get a clue as to what real torture is. As opposed to something that resembles a fraternity pledge hazing from the 1960's.

It amazes me that after viewing the snuff films with heads being sawed off, that some people see a moral equivalence with water boarding.

25 debutaunt  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:06:00am

re: #23 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

You aint seen nothing yet.

/Acorn

Those scamps will get the percentage well over 100%.

26 doppelganglander  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:06:22am

The only differences between Saddam and a sexually sadistic serial killer are resources and scale.

27 debutaunt  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:06:39am

re: #24 opnion

It amazes me that after viewing the snuff films with heads being sawed off, that some people see a moral equivalence with water boarding.

That is what they want to see.

28 Kragar  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:06:43am

re: #25 debutaunt

Those scamps will get the percentage well over 100%.

It will match the inflation.

29 simonml  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:06:44am

IMO a systematic campaign to torture and kill the Kurds was a WMD.

30 MrSilverDragon  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:06:44am

re: #24 opnion

It amazes me that after viewing the snuff films with heads being sawed off, that some people see a moral equivalence with water boarding.

Didn't you know? Extreme discomfort is the same as death.

/mad

31 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:06:54am
32 funky chicken  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:06:55am

And yes, imagine the over 4000 members of the US military still alive today, if only GHWB had listened to Schwartzkopf instead of Powell and the Saudis.

33 JammieWearingFool  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:07:38am

I just hope nobody was waterboarded. It might enforce some retroactive rage from the left.

34 VegasRick  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:08:41am

re: #23 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

You aint seen nothing yet.

/Acorn

Didn't the zero get around 106% of the vote in some areas while McCain only got about 48% in those same areas?
/

35 ladycatnip  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:08:46am

#21 funky chicken

GHWB should have listened to Schwartzkopf instead of Powell and the Saudis.

Imagine the billions we wouldn't have spent patrolling no fly zones. Imagine no Khobar Towers bombing (our large Saudi footprint was for support of those no fly zones.) Imagine no oil for palaces program greasing Kofi Annan's palms.

etc, etc, etc

It's a frightening reality how the decision of one or a few can have such a horrific impact on the many.

We're now entering a new era and I shudder to think of the impact the O's decisions will bring down the road.

36 Kragar  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:08:50am
37 pat  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:09:03am

Saddam went to some lengths to appear like Stalin. And not just in the mirror.

38 debutaunt  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:09:19am

re: #34 VegasRick

Didn't the zero get around 106% of the vote in some areas while McCain only got about 48% in those same areas?
/

The Diebold voting machines malfunctioned.

39 Eowyn2  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:09:42am

re: #19 sattv4u2


//auditioning for a job as Nana Pelosi's speech writer

Will you be briefing her on your audition prior to auditioning or will your aides brief her aides without telling anyone that the audition for speech writer must be briefed to speech being told to brief the aides who need to be told to be briefing the auditioner and auditionee?

40 simonml  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:09:57am
By the end of the Anfal campaigns in August 1988, according to historian David McDowall, Saddam’s vast apparatus of murder had killed perhaps as many as 200,000 men, women, and children, produced hundreds of thousands of desperate refugees in Turkey and Iran, and left Kurdistan bereft of rural village life.

Vast apparatus of murder = weapon of mass destruction, no?

41 ilzito guacamolito  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:09:58am

re: #25 debutaunt

Those scamps will get the percentage well over 100%.


Ha! I love that word. It makes me think of the Lil' Rascals. ACORN, however, are not the Lil' Rascals. More like Big Ole Radicals.

42 opnion  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:10:27am

re: #30 MrSilverDragon

Didn't you know? Extreme discomfort is the same as death.

/mad

The Army Manual does not allow for screaming.

43 VegasRick  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:10:39am

re: #38 debutaunt

The Diebold voting machines malfunctioned.

Funny how that happens.

44 sattv4u2  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:11:04am

They had their heads, fingers and feet chopped off! They were whipped with leather straps with shards of metal on them. They were thrown from roofs with their hands tied behind their backs


but thank GOD leashed dogs didn't bark at them!

//

45 Kragar  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:11:21am

re: #42 opnion

The Army Manual does not allow for screaming.

Crazy glue or a staple gun can take care of that.

/

46 VegasRick  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:11:38am

re: #41 ilzito guacamolito

Ha! I love that word. It makes me think of the Lil' Rascals. ACORN, however, are not the Lil' Rascals. More like Big Ole Radicals.

Suckwheat?

47 dhg4  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:13:13am

re: #36 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Some might consider this a slight warning sign:

General commander of the Iranian army: It will take us 11 days "to wipe Israel out of existence"

Would this be the source of "... Netanyahu's hysterical views on Iran?"

No doubt Roger Cohen has an innocuous explanation for such bloodthirsty claims.

48 calcajun  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:13:32am

This is a reason we invaded Iraq. If we leave before the job is finished--this will all happen again.

49 calcajun  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:14:19am

re: #44 sattv4u2

And they weren't waterboarded--horrors.

50 doppelganglander  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:14:40am

So when is Katie Couric going to Iraq for a special report on the Red Museum? Will that be before or after Keith Olbermann devotes a whole hour to showing the photos and naming the dead?

51 HDrepub  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:14:43am

re: #24 opnion

It amazes me that after viewing the snuff films with heads being sawed off, that some people see a moral equivalence with water boarding.

It's the noble savage thing, their culture and we shouldn't oppress them or interfere with their barbarism.
dripping sarcasm/

52 SummerSong  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:14:49am

re: #20 NJDhockeyfan

That is really bad but we all know who the REAL terrorists & torturers are...Bush & Cheney!

///

I saw a license plate frame over the weekend that said -"my next license plate will be made by Bush and Cheney". In his dreams...

53 Kragar  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:14:57am

re: #47 dhg4

Would this be the source of "... Netanyahu's hysterical views on Iran?"

No doubt Roger Cohen has an innocuous explanation for such bloodthirsty claims.

Perhaps the Israelis can drop a nuke out in the middle of the Gulf as a warning to Iran?

/

54 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:15:27am

re: #35 ladycatnip

#21 funky chicken

It's a frightening reality how the decision of one or a few can have such a horrific impact on the many.

We're now entering a new era and I shudder to think of the impact the O's decisions will bring down the road.

Such as Carter's decision to not back the Shah.

55 acwgusa  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:15:35am

To hell with the WMD debate, to hell with the anti-war crowd, to hell with the whining apologist at the U.N. for Saddam, taking his money in oil for food.

After reading this, any small shred doubt I had about the invasion of Iraq is GONE. To Hell with those who thought Saddam didn't deserve a neck stretch!

56 Desert Dog  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:15:35am

I guess the world is actually better off without Saddam, eh Defeat-o-crats? Or, would it be better if this monster and his evil spawn were still alive doing these unspeakable things?

57 HDrepub  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:16:23am

re: #50 doppelganglander

So when is Katie Couric going to Iraq for a special report on the Red Museum? Will that be before or after Keith Olbermann devotes a whole hour to showing the photos and naming the dead?

I recall when we invaded Iraq this little airhead twit Couric on the Today Show asked, where is Sadaam, in Syria. We hope, she added.

58 Ward Cleaver  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:16:24am

The MSM will ignore this.

59 Desert Dog  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:16:32am

Forward this to that fat f*ck Michael Moore. There's no kite flying and smiling children in this report.

60 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:17:06am

re: #55 acwgusa

To hell with the WMD debate, to hell with the anti-war crowd, to hell with the whining apologist at the U.N. for Saddam, taking his money in oil for food.

After reading this, any small shred doubt I had about the invasion of Iraq is GONE. To Hell with those who thought Saddam didn't deserve a neck stretch!

He didn't - hanging was too merciful for the monster.

61 Eowyn2  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:17:31am

re: #14 ErnieG

To paraphrase Crocodile Dundee: "That's not torture. THIS is torture.

"so, its to be torture,
I can cope with torture"

62 Kragar  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:18:45am

re: #61 Eowyn2

"so, its to be torture,
I can cope with torture"

Where did you put the albino's wheelbarrow?

63 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:19:20am

re: #58 Ward Cleaver

The MSM will ignore this.

The same ones who have 'Free Tibet' bumper stickers on their cars.

64 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:20:18am

But, but.. Saddam got 99% of the vote!

65 gander  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:20:29am

Saddam did these things because he was frustrated by American support for Israel.

66 Vicious Babushka  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:20:32am

re: #63 NJDhockeyfan

The same ones who have 'Free Tibet' bumper stickers on their cars.

That's only because they think it's some far East casino.

67 dhg4  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:20:37am

The late Michael Kelly rejected the use of the term "chickenhawk" hurled at those who supported with Saddam. He didn't see photos. He went to the morgue after Saddam was chased out of Kuwait.

Uday was well known for his torture of athletes who didn't make the grade. Sports Illustrated actually had a rather complete account of his sadistic treatment of the athletes under his authority.

68 Desert Dog  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:20:53am

re: #63 NJDhockeyfan

The same ones who have 'Free Tibet' bumper stickers on their cars.

don't forget the "COEXIST" sticker that's also attached to the Prius....and the smug look of the Starbuck's slurping twit driving it.

69 Eowyn2  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:21:10am

re: #40 simonml

Vast apparatus of murder = weapon of mass destruction, no?

I gave up the wmd arguements when liberals kept claiming that the ONLY wmd was a nuke. No other wmd exists. I know they are right because, well, they yelled louder than I did.

70 acwgusa  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:21:17am

re: #60 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

He didn't - hanging was too merciful for the monster.

I'm sometimes confused/surprised/sorry we stopped whacking dictators at Iraq. In the words of Martha Stewart - Dead Dictators - it's a good thing.

71 Eowyn2  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:21:49am

re: #62 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Where did you put the albino's wheelbarrow?

On the Albino I think

72 Vicious Babushka  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:22:21am

re: #68 Desert Dog

don't forget the "COEXIST" sticker that's also attached to the Prius....and the smug look of the Starbuck's slurping twit driving it.

Smug Alert

73 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:22:29am
74 simonml  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:22:41am

re: #18 simonml

But but but Saddam was elected democratically with 99.9% of the vote. He must be a good guy to get more votes than Obama

/

re: #64 cannadian club akbar

But, but.. Saddam got 99% of the vote!

GMTA or plagiarism? j/k

75 Eowyn2  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:23:21am

re: #67 dhg4

The late Michael Kelly rejected the use of the term "chickenhawk" hurled at those who supported with Saddam. He didn't see photos. He went to the morgue after Saddam was chased out of Kuwait.

Uday was well known for his torture of athletes who didn't make the grade. Sports Illustrated actually had a rather complete account of his sadistic treatment of the athletes under his authority.

Worst day in your life. Making the Iraq national soccer team.

76 pegcity  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:23:28am

re: #21 funky chicken

GHWB should have listened to Schwartzkopf instead of Powell and the Saudis.

Imagine the billions we wouldn't have spent patrolling no fly zones. Imagine no Khobar Towers bombing (our large Saudi footprint was for support of those no fly zones.) Imagine no oil for palaces program greasing Kofi Annan's palms.

etc, etc, etc

now just imagine israel had not bombed Osiraq, this monster would still be in power and control the entire middle east.

77 Desert Dog  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:23:35am

re: #72 Alouette

Smug Alert

That's why those guys are so good....they cut through the PC BS and get right down to the point of the matter....that episode was hilarous

78 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:23:37am
79 simonml  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:24:11am

re: #69 Eowyn2

I gave up the wmd arguements when liberals kept claiming that the ONLY wmd was a nuke. No other wmd exists. I know they are right because, well, they yelled louder than I did.

I know. I just think we all knew that Saddam was evil and WMD became some sort of "proof" of his nature when in actuality he was the WMD all along.

80 turn  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:24:16am

I didn't see this pointed out upthread but this lies in stark contrast to how the US military treated him when he was captured. We treated him humanely and went out of our way to make sure his was kept in good health. That's a taste of the real America for ya world.

81 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:24:35am

re: #74 simonml

GMTA or plagiarism? j/k

Jumped right in, didn't see quote. My bad. Plagiarism= Biden.

82 dhg4  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:25:08am

re: #73 buzzsawmonkey

I'd never heard of Tony Karon before following your first link.

Wow. An editor at Time, a South African Jew who worked with the ANC during apartheid (read "communist"), with links to Juan Cole and to a Jewish--or supposedly Jewish--organization dedicated to "remembering the Nakba."

What a cesspool.

Glad I could educate you. At Time, Mr. Karon is ably assisted by the likes of Scott MacLeod, Tim McGirk and Andrew Lee Butters. It is hard to imagine a more skilled group of terror apologists working for the same publication in the United States.

83 SeafoodGumbo  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:25:12am
The hardest thing to see was the cell used to hold children before they were murdered. My translator Alan read some of the messages carved into the wall.

“I was ten years old. But they changed my age to 18 for execution.”


link

84 soxfan4life  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:25:19am

re: #65 gander

Saddam did these things because he was frustrated by American support for Israel.


The jooos made him do it, so the UN was fine with it.

85 Andrew Brehm  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:25:28am

I wrote about Suli on my blog here:

[Link: web.mac.com...]

Michael Totten also had several excellent articles on Sulimaniya.

86 Vicious Babushka  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:25:37am

re: #80 turn

I didn't see this pointed out upthread but this lies in stark contrast to how the US military treated him when he was captured. We treated him humanely and went out of our way to make sure his was kept in good health. That's a taste of the real America for ya world.

But-but-but they tortured him! They showed him scenes from the "South Park Movie" where he is having sex with Satan.

87 Eowyn2  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:26:17am

re: #74 simonml

GMTA or plagiarism? j/k

acorn

88 simonml  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:26:23am

re: #80 turn

I didn't see this pointed out upthread but this lies in stark contrast to how the US military treated him when he was captured. We treated him humanely and went out of our way to make sure his was kept in good health. That's a taste of the real America for ya world.

No. We took pictures of him in his underwear and fed him Cheetos. TORTURE!

/MSM reported on this more than anything

89 Yankee Division Son  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:26:28am

OT -

Scientists Unveil Missing Link In Evolution

"Researchers say proof of this transitional species finally confirms Charles Darwin's theory of evolution, and the then radical, outlandish ideas he came up with during his time aboard the Beagle."

90 Desert Dog  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:27:08am

re: #86 Alouette

But-but-but they tortured him! They showed him scenes from the "South Park Movie" where he is having sex with Satan.

Yes, I am sure that was pure torture for Satan.

91 Cheesehead  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:27:11am

The anti-Iraqi war types should be strapped to a chair with their eyes taped open and forced to view picture-after-picture-after picture of Saddam's torture victims, until they scream. Maybe they'd get it then.

92 FrogMarch  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:27:35am

I'm still waiting for left-wingers to sport Uncle Saddam t-shirts. (right along with there murderous commie thug che shirts)

93 FrogMarch  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:28:06am

their.

94 turn  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:28:14am

re: #86 Alouette

But-but-but they tortured him! They showed him scenes from the "South Park Movie" where he is having sex with Satan.

ha, they should/could have shot that fucker on the spot when they pulled him out of that spider hole. btw, that was a remarkable piece of detective work they did to find him.

95 pegcity  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:28:16am

re: #89 Yankee Division Son

OT -

Scientists Unveil Missing Link In Evolution

"Researchers say proof of this transitional species finally confirms Charles Darwin's theory of evolution, and the then radical, outlandish ideas he came up with during his time aboard the Beagle."

Lets see the discovery institute explain this one away, im sure they will just post an episode of the Flintstones as a rebuttal

96 sattv4u2  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:29:13am

re: #91 Cheesehead

The anti-Iraqi war types should be strapped to a chair with their eyes taped open and forced to view picture-after-picture-after picture of Saddam's torture victims, until they scream. Maybe they'd get it then.

doubtful ,, see my #19,,, , thats how they would view it

97 soxfan4life  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:29:35am

re: #91 Cheesehead

The anti-Iraqi war types should be strapped to a chair with their eyes taped open and forced to view picture-after-picture-after picture of Saddam's torture victims, until they scream. Maybe they'd get it then.


All they would do is tell you George H.W. Bush is to blame. Had he only recognized Iraqs right to annex Kuwait none of this would have happened.

98 harrylook  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:30:09am

Let's not forget that our lousy-ass President thought it would be cool to let this sadistic murdering racist pig stay in power.

99 debutaunt  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:30:17am

re: #69 Eowyn2

I gave up the wmd arguements when liberals kept claiming that the ONLY wmd was a nuke. No other wmd exists. I know they are right because, well, they yelled louder than I did.

Words and concepts have been completely redefined. Cool.

100 soxfan4life  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:30:56am

re: #99 debutaunt

Words and concepts have been completely redefined. Cool.

Liberalism is the most destructive WMD available today.

101 Desert Dog  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:31:06am

re: #98 harrylook

Let's not forget that our lousy-ass President thought it would be cool to let this sadistic murdering racist pig stay in power.

I've noticed now that he is President Obama, as opposed to Candidate Obama, he is singing a different tune? Funny how that works?

102 pegcity  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:31:32am

re: #99 debutaunt

yellow cake is merely a component in the most awesomest cake ever, thats why Saddam wasn't allowed to have the 500 pounds we seized.

103 turn  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:32:02am

re: #95 pegcity

When I read about that fossil hanging undiscovered on a wall for 20 years I thought maybe that was a good thing, had it come out 25 years ago it might have been squelched by the creationists.

104 debutaunt  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:32:32am

re: #79 simonml

I know. I just think we all knew that Saddam was evil and WMD became some sort of "proof" of his nature when in actuality he was the WMD all along.

Saddam did say he had WMDs. Clinton and his administration believed Saddam had WMDs.

105 karmic_inquisitor  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:32:34am

We ought to build a museum in this country that shows the cruelty and torture unleashed on humanity by leftist regimes.

And it should be located in Berkeley.

The fact that this will never happen should illustrate how brave and clear headed Iraqis are to build this museum. That poses a stark contrast to the confused left who see themselves as libertines yet acted against and still resent the liberation of Iraq.

106 Eowyn2  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:32:57am

re: #102 pegcity

yellow cake is merely a component in the most awesomest cake ever, thats why Saddam wasn't allowed to have the 500 pounds we seized.

The Yellow Cake was the secret to destabilize Big Twinkie

/

107 debutaunt  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:33:38am

re: #80 turn

I didn't see this pointed out upthread but this lies in stark contrast to how the US military treated him when he was captured. We treated him humanely and went out of our way to make sure his was kept in good health. That's a taste of the real America for ya world.

I'm pretty sure we force-fed him snack foods.

108 soxfan4life  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:33:46am

re: #101 Desert Dog

I've noticed now that he is President Obama, as opposed to Candidate Obama, he is singing a different tune? Funny how that works?

According to the news today he is governing from the center. If you want to believe that.

109 simonml  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:34:01am

re: #102 pegcity

yellow cake is merely a component in the most awesomest cake ever, thats why Saddam wasn't allowed to have the 500 pounds we seized.

Yum. Its always so warm even after its been out of the oven for hours.

110 RoughRider  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:34:10am

re: #89 Yankee Division Son

OT -

Scientists Unveil Missing Link In Evolution

How can we be sure this wasn't Photoshopped together on the same Hollywood back lot where the moon landings were staged?

/s

111 Ward Cleaver  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:34:20am

re: #106 Eowyn2

The Yellow Cake was the secret to destabilize Big Twinkie

/

Mmmmmm... Yellowcake...

112 turn  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:34:25am

re: #107 debutaunt

kos, is that you?
/

113 dhg4  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:34:32am

re: #5 VegasRick

"At least he didn't waterboard anyone!"
/pelousy

Note this:

The cells’ walls are scratched with the names of prisoners who tried to leave some vestige of their existence. In one is a small statue of a teacher, Ma Masta Ahmad, who after six months of confinement and torture was subjected to 24 hours of hanging by his wrists. To end this torment he told everything he knew—and then was shot. On the wall is etched his pathetic little calendar, which he kept to keep some contact with an outside world that he never saw again. Of the thousands of men, women, and children who came through the doors of the Red Museum, almost none came out alive. Those who did not perish were sent to Abu Ghraib in Baghdad to be hanged.

At least they weren't humiliated there.

114 harrylook  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:34:55am
I've noticed now that he is President Obama, as opposed to Candidate Obama, he is singing a different tune? Funny how that works?

0bama doesn't believe in a damned thing except getting and staying in power. He's an uber-coward. The guy makes me sick to my stomach.

115 MrSilverDragon  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:35:18am

re: #106 Eowyn2

The Yellow Cake was the secret to destabilize Big Twinkie

/

What about... the big Twinkie?

116 zombie  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:35:25am

When reading this description of Saddam's torture chambers and what life was really like in Baathist Iraq, never forget that miillions of self-professed liberal moonbats actively supported Saddam and the Baathists against US forces, during anti-war protests.

The Left will never live down this shame, as far as I'm concerned.

117 turn  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:35:43am

re: #114 harrylook

0bama doesn't believe in a damned thing except getting and staying in power. He's an uber-coward. The guy makes me sick to my stomach.

Tell us what you really think.
/

118 zombie  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:36:04am

re: #98 harrylook

Let's not forget that our lousy-ass President thought it would be cool to let this sadistic murdering racist pig stay in power.

So true. And most of his fellow leftists felt the same way.

119 Eowyn2  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:36:44am

re: #105 karmic_inquisitor

We ought to build a museum in this country that shows the cruelty and torture unleashed on humanity by leftist regimes.

And it should be located in Berkeley.

The fact that this will never happen should illustrate how brave and clear headed Iraqis are to build this museum. That poses a stark contrast to the confused left who see themselves as libertines yet acted against and still resent the liberation of Iraq.

It would do as much good as the factual histories of said regimes.

120 debutaunt  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:36:51am

re: #102 pegcity

yellow cake is merely a component in the most awesomest cake ever, thats why Saddam wasn't allowed to have the 500 pounds we seized.

I sent two different links about the yellowcake to a moonbat I know. She didn't care. Reality is unimportant.

121 turn  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:36:54am

re: #116 zombie

she looks like a female grim reaper.

122 Salamantis  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:36:57am

re: #100 soxfan4life

Liberalism is the most destructive WMD available today.

Nope. Classical John Sturt Millian liberalism is fully as respectable as is classical Edmund Burkean conservatism. You're thinking of communist anticlassist leftism, which is as different a doctrine from true liberalism as fascist racist rightism is different from true conservatism.

123 pegcity  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:37:00am

re: #116 zombie

The Left Never met a murdering Dictator they didn't love.

I am always amazed that i can start a conversation with a liberal and within 4 minutes get them advocating genocide.

Very angry people Leftists are.

124 MrSilverDragon  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:37:14am

re: #116 zombie

When reading this description of Saddam's torture chambers and what life was really like in Baathist Iraq, never forget that miillions of self-professed liberal moonbats actively supported Saddam and the Baathists against US forces, during anti-war protests.

The Left will never live down this shame, as far as I'm concerned.

Seems to me that they can, because they have no shame. Or guilt. Or conscience.

125 CommonCents  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:37:16am

It can't go without saying that the Baath party was organized by the Gestapo and you can certainly see the parallels.

I'm sure 99% of those here already know that but for the 2000 lurkers and trolls it's worth repeating.

126 soxfan4life  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:37:25am

re: #114 harrylook

0bama doesn't believe in a damned thing except getting and staying in power. He's an uber-coward. The guy makes me sick to my stomach.

Don't be fooled 0bama believes whole heartedly in the fact that America is to blame for all the worlds problems.

127 Kragar  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:38:05am

re: #116 zombie

When reading this description of Saddam's torture chambers and what life was really like in Baathist Iraq, never forget that miillions of self-professed liberal moonbats actively supported Saddam and the Baathists against US forces, during anti-war protests.

The Left will never live down this shame, as far as I'm concerned.

You have to have honor to feel shamed. They have none.

128 debutaunt  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:38:41am

re: #110 RoughRider

How can we be sure this wasn't Photoshopped together on the same Hollywood back lot where the moon landings were staged?

/s

I know! Did you see the number on one of the rocks?

129 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:38:42am
130 sattv4u2  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:38:50am

re: #116 zombie

The Left will never live down this shame, as far as I'm concerned.
Problem is, they don't think going to Iraq as Human Sheilds WAS shameful. They beleive it was rightuous!

131 CommonCents  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:39:00am

re: #102 pegcity

yellow cake is merely a component in the most awesomest cake ever, thats why Saddam wasn't allowed to have the 500 pounds tons we seized.

Fixed it for ya.

132 Desert Dog  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:39:38am

re: #108 soxfan4life

According to the news today he is governing from the center. If you want to believe that.

Yes, I believe that there are people saying that right now, and they believe it to be true too. However. once that notion is adjusted for reality, I think they will see it is just not the truth.

133 Mike McDaniel  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:40:16am

When the Allies discovered the Nazi death camps, they made a point of making the local German population go through...and help clean up. This hammered the horror home so forcefully that a fair number committed suicide.

We need to take the American quislings who interfered with the conduct of the war (not the war opponents, disagreement and disloyalty are different things), ship them to Iraq, and do the same thing. Let them see what they were really supporting.

134 soxfan4life  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:40:22am

Here is another argument for federally funded campaigns. And (gasp) it involves Dems and illegal campaign contributions.

[Link: www.comcast.net...]

135 pegcity  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:40:54am

re: #133 Mike McDaniel

i remember that from Band of Brothers, they made the towns people pile the dead bodies

136 John Neverbend  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:41:36am

re: #36 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Some might consider this a slight warning sign:

General commander of the Iranian army: It will take us 11 days "to wipe Israel out of existence"

But let's go ahead and link our opposition to Iran's nuclear program to the imposition of the two-state Endlösung. Who on earth is advising Obama?

137 CommonCents  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:42:42am

re: #135 pegcity

i remember that from Band of Brothers, they made the towns people pile the dead bodies

Greatest movie / mini-series of all time.

138 zombie  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:42:47am

re: #125 CommonCents

It can't go without saying that the Baath party was organized by the Gestapo and you can certainly see the parallels.

I'm sure 99% of those here already know that but for the 2000 lurkers and trolls it's worth repeating.

Yes, definitely worth noting:

Ba'ath Party

Underlying political philosophy

...Tellingly, Baath party co-founders Michel Aflaq and Salah al-Bitar both studied at the Sorbonne in the early 1930s, at a time when center-left Positivism was still the dominant ideology amongst France’s academic elite.

The “Kulturnation” concept of Johann Gottfried Herder and the Grimm Brothers had a certain impact. Kulturnation defines a nationality more by a common cultural tradition and popular folklore than by national, political or religious boundaries and was considered by some as being more suitable for the German, Arab or Ottoman and Turkic countries.
Germany was seen as an anti-colonial power and friend of the Arab world; cultural and economic exchange and infrastructure projects as the Baghdad Railway supported that impression. According to Paul Berman, one of the early Arab nationalist thinkers Sati' al-Husri was influenced by Fichte, a German philosopher and Nazi precursor, famous for his nation state socialism economic concepts, his antisemitic stance and his important influence on the German unification movement.

... during General Rashid Ali al-Gaylani's short-lived anti-British military coup in 1941, Iraq-based Arab nationalists (Sunni Muslims as well as Chaldean Christians) asked the Nazi German government to support them against British colonial rule.

139 MrSilverDragon  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:43:40am

re: #136 John Neverbend

But let's go ahead and link our opposition to Iran's nuclear program to the imposition of the two-state Endlösung. Who on earth is advising Obama?

His narcissistic ego.

140 soxfan4life  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:44:02am

OT This ought to get the lefties panties in a bunch.


[Link: www.comcast.net...]

141 pegcity  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:45:37am

re: #137 CommonCents

Greatest movie / mini-series of all time.

yeah really looking forward to the pacific series based on Eugene Sledge's time in the pacific

142 debutaunt  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:46:25am

re: #123 pegcity

The Left Never met a murdering Dictator they didn't love.

I am always amazed that i can start a conversation with a liberal and within 4 minutes get them advocating genocide.

Very angry people Leftists are.

And, oddly enough, they are no less angry in power.

143 Jimmah  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:46:36am

re: #116 zombie

When reading this description of Saddam's torture chambers and what life was really like in Baathist Iraq, never forget that miillions of self-professed liberal moonbats actively supported Saddam and the Baathists against US forces, during anti-war protests.

The Left will never live down this shame, as far as I'm concerned.

Leaving the centre, pro-intervention left out of it of course. As for the others on the left, neither will they ever feel it unfortunately, save for the few actually capable of rational reflection and self-correction.

144 CommonCents  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:46:40am

re: #140 soxfan4life

OT This ought to get the lefties panties in a bunch.


[Link: www.comcast.net...]

Jack Cafferty is already bunched up on this. Ironically he lastest tirade invokes almost everything referenced on this thread. Emails, WMD's, phony war, torture. The guy is such a tool.

145 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:46:41am
146 Kragar  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:47:17am

re: #137 CommonCents

Greatest movie / mini-series of all time.

Almost as good as Rome.

147 CommonCents  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:47:24am

re: #144 CommonCents

Jack Cafferty is already bunched up on this. Ironically he his lastest tirade invokes almost everything referenced on this thread. Emails, WMD's, phony war, torture. The guy is such a tool.

no habla
pimf

148 Eowyn2  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:47:46am

re: #113 dhg4

At least they weren't humiliated there.

One of the things that continually amaze me is the picture of the batteries and hood person. Do people really think that the US soldiers brought this stuff with them? I'm not saying they didnt use them to scare the hell out of former guards and bad guys, but would puting a person up on the block like that and giving them a small charge be any worse than forcing the camp guards at buchenwald bury their victims?

The dogs were very useful. Considering the typical Muslim distrust of the EVIL dogs, they probably could have gotten away with ankle biters instead of real dogs. Lots of little brown and black dachunds to keep the prisoners in line. Cheaper on food.

149 CommonCents  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:48:06am

re: #146 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Almost as good as Rome.

I disagree but I won't down ding you on opinions.

150 John Neverbend  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:48:06am

re: #89 Yankee Division Son

OT -

Scientists Unveil Missing Link In Evolution

This is a marvellous achievement. I notice that experts "have been secretly researching the 1ft 9in-tall young female monkey for the past two years." I would hope that as a result, they'll be able to make their published research completely IDiot proof.

151 ilzito guacamolito  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:49:03am

re: #136 John Neverbend

But let's go ahead and link our opposition to Iran's nuclear program to the imposition of the two-state Endlösung. Who on earth is advising Obama?

This guy?

152 doppelganglander  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:49:14am

re: #144 CommonCents

Jack Cafferty is already bunched up on this. Ironically he lastest tirade invokes almost everything referenced on this thread. Emails, WMD's, phony war, torture. The guy is such a tool.

What the hell happened to him, anyway? I remember him from the local news in New York in the '70s and '80s. He used to just read the news like a normal person. Now it's nothing but sneers, snide comments, unsupported allegations and general mouth-frothing.

153 John Neverbend  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:49:45am

re: #139 MrSilverDragon

That sounds like a description of Rahm Emanuel.

154 Eowyn2  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:49:58am

re: #115 MrSilverDragon

What about... the big Twinkie?

Big Twinkie is ripping off our yellowcake

155 CommonCents  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:50:03am

re: #89 Yankee Division Son

OT -

Scientists Unveil Missing Link In Evolution

"Researchers say proof of this transitional species finally confirms Charles Darwin's theory of evolution, and the then radical, outlandish ideas he came up with during his time aboard the Beagle."

This explains the banana binge I've been on lately.

156 pegcity  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:50:04am

re: #152 doppelganglander

guy is a miserable prick

157 Erik The Red  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:50:40am

re: #151 ilzito guacamolito

More like this "Guy"

158 Kenneth  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:51:28am

re: #152 doppelganglander

What the hell happened to him, anyway? I remember him from the local news in New York in the '70s and '80s. He used to just read the news like a normal person. Now it's nothing but sneers, snide comments, unsupported allegations and general mouth-frothing.

He wants a piece of that Olbermann action. Hysterical shrieking pays.

159 ilzito guacamolito  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:51:46am

re: #157 Erik The Red

More like this "Guy"

So Obama is advising himself.

160 experiencedtraveller  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:51:56am

I testify that I personally visited some of the torture rooms in Kuwait and spoke first hand to many Kuwaiti's whose friends and relatives were executed by the fascist dictatorship of Saddam Hussein.

161 Eowyn2  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:52:05am

re: #146 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I have to rent Rome over Memorial Day Weekend. I understand that Cyrian Hind plays Ceasar and, well, I think Hind looks like a MAN.

162 healem  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:52:25am

re: #91 Cheesehead

The anti-Iraqi war types should be strapped to a chair with their eyes taped open and forced to view picture-after-picture-after picture of Saddam's torture victims, until they scream. Maybe they'd get it then.

But that would be torture
/

163 Erik The Red  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:52:32am

re: #159 ilzito guacamolito

So Obama is advising himself.

That is even more scary.

164 Eowyn2  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:52:56am

re: #152 doppelganglander

What the hell happened to him, anyway? I remember him from the local news in New York in the '70s and '80s. He used to just read the news like a normal person. Now it's nothing but sneers, snide comments, unsupported allegations and general mouth-frothing.

Nothing quite like taking yourself too seriously.

165 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:53:05am
166 Mike McDaniel  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:53:23am

re: #145 buzzsawmonkey

The point is, the Allies made a point of rubbing the Germans' noses into what had happened. Smashing their faces into it - hard enough to drive the point home.

It would be worthwhile to do the same thing to the treacherous Left.

167 Kragar  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:54:13am

re: #161 Eowyn2

I have to rent Rome over Memorial Day Weekend. I understand that Cyrian Hind plays Ceasar and, well, I think Hind looks like a MAN.

Just finished watching Season 1, still have to go pickup Season 2. Lots of good work in that series. Kevin Mckidd and Ray Stevenson worked great together.

168 Salamantis  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:54:13am

re: #105 karmic_inquisitor

We ought to build a museum in this country that shows the cruelty and torture unleashed on humanity by leftist regimes.

And it should be located in Berkeley.

The fact that this will never happen should illustrate how brave and clear headed Iraqis are to build this museum. That poses a stark contrast to the confused left who see themselves as libertines yet acted against and still resent the liberation of Iraq.

What is Old and What is New in the Terrorism of Islamic Fundamentalism?
Jeffrey Herf
[Link: www.bu.edu...]

excerpt:

Islamic fundamentalism is closer to the fascist and Nazi traditions in its celebration of values which depart from rationality. Marxism-Leninism was a doctrine whose erroneous interpretation of history, politics, and economics nevertheless contained elements of rationality and possibilities of empirical assessment. Moreover, while Communists certainly fostered a cult of martyrdom, they did not make death a virtue. The elements of rationality within Marxism-Leninism combined with the self-interest associated with possession of the huge state of the Soviet Union. As a result the Soviet leaders believed that they had more to lose than to gain by unleashing a nuclear war with the United States. Because the Communists possessed this minimum of rationality, it was possible for the West to arrive at a nuclear stalemate with Moscow for half a century. Nuclear deterrence rested on the assumption that both players preferred survival to self-destruction. Given Hitler’s fundamental contempt for rationality and his celebration of the will, combined with the paranoid structure of his interpretation of international politics, the chances that such a peaceful nuclear stalemate could have been sustained with Nazi Germany for half a century would have been far less likely. A Nazi leadership would have been far more likely to go over the brink to war, even if that meant the nuclear devastation of Nazi Germany.

However enamored Hitler and the Nazis were of an apocalyptic end, Nazism as an ideology celebrated the victory of the "master race," not its death and revival in heavenly paradise. It was a secular totalitarianism. On the other hand, terrorists inspired by Islamic fundamentalism have an attitude towards their own death which is quite different precisely because it is inspired by a religious radicalism that envisages a heavenly paradise in the next world. Radical Islam convinces its adherents that a martyr’s death is a prelude to this paradise. Their otherworldly visions clearly inspired the murderers of September 11th just as they have inspired the one hundred suicide bombers who have attacked Israel since 1993, thirty in the past year. They are visions with a profound consequence for the future of world peace and security. Should a radical Islamic group or state come to possess weapons of mass destruction (chemical, biological, or nuclear) and the means to deliver them, there is no reason to assume that the prospect of nuclear retaliation by the United States would deter war. This is so because, in their view, their own death is a prelude to certain entry to a better life in the heavenly paradise to come. For people with such belief, nuclear retaliation may be a blessing rather than a threat.

169 Nevergiveup  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:54:41am

I wonder in all the desperate days before one of these unfortunate souls was executed, if even one ever cast his/her eyes to the West and prayed for deliverance from " Nancy Pelosi" ?

170 Vicious Babushka  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:55:15am

re: #166 Mike McDaniel

The point is, the Allies made a point of rubbing the Germans' noses into what had happened. Smashing their faces into it - hard enough to drive the point home.

It would be worthwhile to do the same thing to the treacherous Left.

Pete Seeger thinks that because he wrote a "parody" song about Stalin in 2007, that he's off the hook for his entire lifetime of cheerleading Communism.

171 doubter4444  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:56:09am

You know, to all those who feel this not just vindicates the invasion, but justifies it, I gotta call bull s@#t.

Sorry, but if's that the case what about Mayanamar, and Darfur, most of Africa, and North Korea, Syria, all the 'stans and even China?

Terrible stuff happens across the globe every moment of every day.

We pick strategic instances to use our might and the force of arms, and our national treasure, not because someone is evil and should be deposed or killed.
That's just the cold hard reality.

If "he was a terrible person" was or becomes the reason we went in, the invasion does not hold up. And frankly sounds like a liberal point of view, I mean, are we the worlds policeman, as GWB said in 2000?
We went in for reasons that were ginned up.
Post rationalization can make it more palateable, but the bottom line remains that it was a decision made for number of geo political reasons that the previous adminstration thought important enough to do what essentially amounted to a gigantic roll of the dice in the region.
Time will tell if it worked, but it was a hugh gamble, and I don't like gambling.

Make no mistake: Saddam deserved what he got and a thousand times worse. Now that we've done it and he's dead, I think it's a good thing, but I'm not going to pretend that his heinous-ness (I may have just made up that word) alone was worth the tremendous cost in US blood, nor the vast sums we've spent there and will have to for the foreseeable future.

172 Nevergiveup  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:57:01am

A Qassam rocket fired by Palestinian militants in the Gaza Strip exploded in the yard of a western Negev home on Tuesday, causing extensive damage to the building and lightly wounding one person

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

Hey Obama! It's all about settlements right? Oh wait there are none in Gaza. Never Mind.

173 gatorbait  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:57:11am

Fuck evil.

174 Nevergiveup  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:57:30am

re: #173 gatorbait

Fuck evil.

Before it fucks you

175 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:58:19am

I've been picking on Allah Pundit a bit lately but he still has his sense of humor.....
Darwinists rejoice: Missing link found

I love the smell of fossilized monkeys in the morning. Smells like … victory. If anyone needs me, I’ll be at the bar drinking champagne with Charles Johnson.

176 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:58:25am
177 Ward Cleaver  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:58:58am

re: #172 Nevergiveup

A Qassam rocket fired by Palestinian militants in the Gaza Strip exploded in the yard of a western Negev home on Tuesday, causing extensive damage to the building and lightly wounding one person

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

Hey Obama! It's all about settlements right? Oh wait there are none in Gaza. Never Mind.

What, you don't have empathy for the Palis?

/hell, neither do i

178 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:59:20am

I smell a Paulian.

179 Erik The Red  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:59:48am

re: #168 Salamantis

What is Old and What is New in the Terrorism of Islamic Fundamentalism?
Jeffrey Herf
[Link: www.bu.edu...]

excerpt:

Islamic fundamentalism is closer to the fascist and Nazi traditions in its celebration of values which depart from rationality. Marxism-Leninism was a doctrine whose erroneous interpretation of history, politics, and economics nevertheless contained elements of rationality and possibilities of empirical assessment. Moreover, while Communists certainly fostered a cult of martyrdom, they did not make death a virtue. The elements of rationality within Marxism-Leninism combined with the self-interest associated with possession of the huge state of the Soviet Union. As a result the Soviet leaders believed that they had more to lose than to gain by unleashing a nuclear war with the United States. Because the Communists possessed this minimum of rationality, it was possible for the West to arrive at a nuclear stalemate with Moscow for half a century. Nuclear deterrence rested on the assumption that both players preferred survival to self-destruction. Given Hitler’s fundamental contempt for rationality and his celebration of the will, combined with the paranoid structure of his interpretation of international politics, the chances that such a peaceful nuclear stalemate could have been sustained with Nazi Germany for half a century would have been far less likely. A Nazi leadership would have been far more likely to go over the brink to war, even if that meant the nuclear devastation of Nazi Germany.

However enamored Hitler and the Nazis were of an apocalyptic end, Nazism as an ideology celebrated the victory of the "master race," not its death and revival in heavenly paradise. It was a secular totalitarianism. On the other hand, terrorists inspired by Islamic fundamentalism have an attitude towards their own death which is quite different precisely because it is inspired by a religious radicalism that envisages a heavenly paradise in the next world. Radical Islam convinces its adherents that a martyr’s death is a prelude to this paradise. Their otherworldly visions clearly inspired the murderers of September 11th just as they have inspired the one hundred suicide bombers who have attacked Israel since 1993, thirty in the past year. They are visions with a profound consequence for the future of world peace and security. Should a radical Islamic group or state come to possess weapons of mass destruction (chemical, biological, or nuclear) and the means to deliver them, there is no reason to assume that the prospect of nuclear retaliation by the United States would deter war. This is so because, in their view, their own death is a prelude to certain entry to a better life in the heavenly paradise to come. For people with such belief, nuclear retaliation may be a blessing rather than a threat.

Nuclear deterrence rested on the assumption that both players preferred survival to self-destruction

The KEY sentence.

180 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:00:01am
181 Walter L. Newton  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:00:31am

re: #175 Killgore Trout

I've been picking on Allah Pundit a bit lately but he still has his sense of humor.....
Darwinists rejoice: Missing link found

Piltdown Monkey.
/

182 Kragar  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:01:12am

re: #181 Walter L. Newton

Piltdown Monkey.
/

2 MORE GAPS!

183 Kenneth  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:01:20am

re: #168 Salamantis

1 million updings. Brilliant.

184 CommonCents  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:01:31am

re: #167 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Just finished watching Season 1, still have to go pickup Season 2. Lots of good work in that series. Kevin Mckidd and Ray Stevenson worked great together.

What was it about Rome that you think made it better than Band of Bros.?

185 Walter L. Newton  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:01:35am

re: #178 Killgore Trout

I smell a Paulian.

It's a fat lesbian. How does her lawn look this morning? Pretty good I imagine.

186 Eowyn2  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:02:13am

re: #145 buzzsawmonkey

Correction: the Allies did not liberate "death camps": the death camps were all in Poland, and those which the Nazis did not destroy were captured by the Soviets. The Allies liberated slave-labor concentration camps.

The inmates of concentration camps died of disease, starvation, overwork, exposure, random brutality, and occasional torture and murder. But they were not herded into gas chambers en masse; the concentration camps did not have gas chambers. Populations which were to be gassed were shipped East to the death camps, such as Treblinka, Chelmno, Sobibor, Auschwitz II (Birkenau).

Dachau, Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald and the other camps liberated by the Allies were places of death, and hell on earth. But they were not "death camps."

Comparatively speaking of course.

I think you are picking just a bit. The male half of Bergen-Belsen had the ovens and the showers. The National Archives in DC have vids of those ovens with the remains still inside the ovens. They were just not as efficient as Treblinka, Chelmno, Sobibor, Birkenau.

187 Mr Spiffy  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:02:27am

re: #19 sattv4u2

"If it wasn't for the failed policies of past republican administrations Saddam, who we had contained, would not have had to resort to putting down the violent protests our CIA fostered in the sovreing country of Iraq"

//auditioning for a job as Nana Pelosi's speech writer

perfect moonbat impersonation--even down to the misspelling

188 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:02:37am

re: #185 Walter L. Newton

Sorry, not interested.

189 Kenneth  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:03:21am

Ida, the Link.

Excellent resource on the new lemur/monkey fossil.

190 Walter L. Newton  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:03:57am

re: #188 Killgore Trout

Sorry, not interested.

Good. I'm waiting for someone to jump on me for using the term. Maybe there is a whole new bar that has been set here. Let's see.

191 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:04:56am

What Saddam got was Justice.
This was as it should be.

/however

Mindful of the admonitions at the top of the page, I'm now leaving the room.

bbl

192 Kragar  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:04:59am

re: #184 CommonCents

What was it about Rome that you think made it better than Band of Bros.?

I'm a Roman history and culture buff

193 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:05:22am

Ok, no signs of intelligent life here. I'll check back later.

194 S'latch  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:05:28am

I remember some liberal folks telling me before and during (some even after) the war that stories like these are just pro-war propaganda.

195 Mr Spiffy  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:05:44am

re: #21 funky chicken

GHWB should have listened to Schwartzkopf instead of Powell and the Saudis.

Imagine the billions we wouldn't have spent patrolling no fly zones. Imagine no Khobar Towers bombing (our large Saudi footprint was for support of those no fly zones.) Imagine no oil for palaces program greasing Kofi Annan's palms.

etc, etc, etc

shoulda, woulda, coulda...
Truman should've listened to Patton,too

196 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:05:49am
197 WindHorse  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:05:55am

wait a minute, I thought the whole reason for going to Iraq was to line the pockets of George Bush and Dick Cheney and Haliburton and..... no blood for oil man.....

///

198 eddiebear  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:06:09am

re: #190 Walter L. Newton

I'll be in my bunk

199 Nevergiveup  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:06:34am

re: #195 Mr Spiffy

shoulda, woulda, coulda...
Truman should've listened to Patton,too

Or Churchill

200 Erik The Red  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:07:14am

re: #193 Killgore Trout

Ok, no signs of intelligent life here. I'll check back later.

FUCK OFF KT. You have just insulted all of us. You self opinionated prick.

201 calcajun  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:07:16am

re: #168 Salamantis

...and this is why a nuclear exchange within the next decade is more likely than not in that region of the world if Iran becomes an atomic power.

The only thing that would give Iran pause is the prevailing winds might blow any fallout from Israel back across Jordan and into the mullah's faces. Not much of a deterrent, really.

202 opnion  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:07:21am

re: #179 Erik The Red

Nuclear deterrence rested on the assumption that both players preferred survival to self-destruction

The KEY sentence.

That is key. The jihadists are knee deep in other wordly fantasizing.
Death becomes attractive because they expect an eternal reward.
A true Soviet Communist valued his life, because he had nowhere to go after death.

203 Salamantis  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:07:36am

re: #171 doubter4444

You know, to all those who feel this not just vindicates the invasion, but justifies it, I gotta call bull s@#t.

Sorry, but if's that the case what about Mayanamar, and Darfur, most of Africa, and North Korea, Syria, all the 'stans and even China?

Terrible stuff happens across the globe every moment of every day.

We pick strategic instances to use our might and the force of arms, and our national treasure, not because someone is evil and should be deposed or killed.
That's just the cold hard reality.

If "he was a terrible person" was or becomes the reason we went in, the invasion does not hold up. And frankly sounds like a liberal point of view, I mean, are we the worlds policeman, as GWB said in 2000?
We went in for reasons that were ginned up.
Post rationalization can make it more palateable, but the bottom line remains that it was a decision made for number of geo political reasons that the previous adminstration thought important enough to do what essentially amounted to a gigantic roll of the dice in the region.
Time will tell if it worked, but it was a hugh gamble, and I don't like gambling.

Make no mistake: Saddam deserved what he got and a thousand times worse. Now that we've done it and he's dead, I think it's a good thing, but I'm not going to pretend that his heinous-ness (I may have just made up that word) alone was worth the tremendous cost in US blood, nor the vast sums we've spent there and will have to for the foreseeable future.

Saddam had his eye on the Persian Gulf nations, as he proved in the first Gulf War. Had Israel not bombed the French built nuclear ractor at Osirak, it is entirely likely that Saddam would have backed up his aggression with the threast of nuclear retaliation to any defenders. And he had not given up such ambitions, as the 500 tone of yellowcake Uranium ore seized in Iraq and the nuclear centrifuge components dug up from a Baghdad rose garden abundantly proved. He called his atomic scientists his nuclear mujaheddin.

Hed we not acted when we did, Saddam would have continued his bribing subversion of the UN sanctions and oil-for-food regime until they crumbled, then employed his country's vast oil wealth to fund a nuclear program, then would have returned to finish what he started in Gulf War I. Once he seized the Saudi oilfields and choled off Iran's ability to export oil by closing off the Persian Gulf, he (or his psychotic sone Uday and Qusay) would have subjected the world economy to global energy blackmail, backed up by newly built nukes. And the world would not, in fact could not, have allowed such a move to stand. But it would have cost us vastly more to defeat it, in both blood and treasure.

204 Walter L. Newton  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:07:47am

re: #199 Nevergiveup

Or Churchill

Or Lawrence Waterhouse.

205 CommonCents  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:08:06am

re: #171 doubter4444

So you were in favor of looking the other way in Rwanda? What is the threshold of evil that you think would justify U.S. action against another nation?

This story in itself does not justify the invasion, but combined with everything else, it's an important piece of the justification.

206 ilzito guacamolito  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:08:47am

re: #157 Erik The Red

More like this "Guy"

Upon further reflection, I am convinced it is this guy.

207 experiencedtraveller  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:09:02am

re: #171 doubter4444


but it was a hugh gamble...

Isn't that the British actor who was caught with street hooker a few years back?

(big MIDDLE finger doubter)

208 anubis_soundwave  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:09:09am

re: #171 doubter4444

I agree that as an American, I am tired of being "World Police". Unfortunately, that's just the reality we're in. We're stuck with the job that no one else wants to do.

Toppling Saddam served our strategic purposes and saved millions of lives. Win-win. Whenever we have the will and ability to, we should topple a bad regime.

However, we have to act in the United States' best interests, so the best way to do this involves putting the onus on these malefactors. In Saddam's case, he was harboring terrorists in Iraq. That gave us casus belli.

Ultimately, it's only when other countries in the respective trouble regions do the work that we're doing that we can stop being "World Police". Until the day other nation-states see dictator-toppling as a priority to their own interests, we do what we have to do to protect our interests.

209 Walter L. Newton  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:09:28am

re: #200 Erik The Red

FUCK OFF KT. You have just insulted all of us. You self opinionated prick.

And it's to be expected, considering all the "love" he has for his fat lesbian next store neighbor. Gee, with friends like him, who needs enemies.

210 Erik The Red  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:10:16am

re: #206 ilzito guacamolito

Upon further reflection, I am convinced it is this guy.

Or this guy. God save us all

211 avanti  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:10:21am

Bible quotes on war briefings stopped with Obama. Seemed kind of strange to me that we had them.

Scripure.

212 debutaunt  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:10:47am

re: #175 Killgore Trout

I've been picking on Allah Pundit a bit lately but he still has his sense of humor.....
Darwinists rejoice: Missing link found

The comments are umm rangy.

213 Salamantis  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:11:12am

re: #201 calcajun

...and this is why a nuclear exchange within the next decade is more likely than not in that region of the world if Iran becomes an atomic power.

The only thing that would give Iran pause is the prevailing winds might blow any fallout from Israel back across Jordan and into the mullah's faces. Not much of a deterrent, really.

Yep. The Iranians are planning to steal a page from Saddam's playbook, and seize the Persian Gulf and the Saudi oilfields, and perpetrate the selfsame global energy blackmail that Saddam previously envisioned. And one of their prices would be tacit permission to perpetrate the unhindered destruction of Israel.

214 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:11:19am

re: #171 doubter4444

Not that you don't have a point, but if you mention Sudan only as Darfur, you're a poser. Myanmar is popular right now, too.

As to "terrible things happen everywhere and all the time", yes, they do.

However, you're a fool if you think that Saddam, someone that vile, in charge of a substantial section of an important resource, in the middle of a volatile area, apt to invade and otherwise destabilize his neighbors isn't something a major power is truly obliged to do something about.

This goes for Iran, as well. It's astonishing to me that the Bush administration and the current Obama administration don't recognize it.

215 Eowyn2  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:12:13am

re: #196 buzzsawmonkey

No. Bergen-Belsen had ovens for corpse disposal, but gas chambers for the purpose of genocide were a feature of the camps in the East, not those liberated by the Allies.


Okay, I will go home tonight and dig out the tape which shows certain members of the allied command going through the showers and showing how the gas delivery system worked.
THEN, tomorrow, I will let you know what I find out. I promise to name names.

The footage of the camps the US liberated was deplorable enough.
My utmost respect to the men (and eventual women) who walked in and did what had to be done in the cleaning, feeding, etc of the survivors let alone the graves for the ones who never made it.

216 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:12:15am

re: #193 Killgore Trout

Honestly, KT, that's not necessary.

217 Kenneth  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:12:23am

re: #211 avanti

Bible quotes on war briefings stopped with Obama. Seemed kind of strange to me that we had them.

Scripure.

Now they quote Chomsky, Marx, Mao & Che Guevara.

218 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:12:50am

re: #209 Walter L. Newton

Please don't start picking a fight.

219 Noam Sayin'  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:13:08am

re: #217 Kenneth

Now they quote Chomsky, Marx, Mao & Che Guevara.

Alinsky, Ayers, Davis, Chavez...

220 Fenboy  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:14:03am

Victory salute huh? I wonder what kind of salute that could be. Probably the same kind of salute a quick google image salute for 'hamas salute', or 'hezbollah salute' turns up, considering the openly fascist nature of Saddam's regime.

221 Son of the Black Dog  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:14:43am

re: #201 calcajun

...and this is why a nuclear exchange within the next decade is more likely than not in that region of the world if Iran becomes an atomic power.

The only thing that would give Iran pause is the prevailing winds might blow any fallout from Israel back across Jordan and into the mullah's faces. Not much of a deterrent, really.

IMHO, the most likely scenario for the use of nuclear weapons in the world is the point in time when the Israelis decide that the Iranians are getting too close to having a workable bomb, and that a conventional strike against Iran would be either impractical, ineffective, or both. The longer we allow the Iranians to continue, the more likely this becomes.

222 John Neverbend  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:14:44am

re: #217 Kenneth

Now they quote Chomsky, Marx, Mao & Che Guevara.

Is that Groucho Marx?

223 John Neverbend  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:15:30am

re: #222 John Neverbend

Is that Groucho Marx?

Actually, it's probably Chico. "Dat's a no good boss."

224 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:15:34am
225 Jimmah  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:16:12am

re: #171 doubter4444

You know, to all those who feel this not just vindicates the invasion, but justifies it, I gotta call bull s@#t.

Sorry, but if's that the case what about Mayanamar, and Darfur, most of Africa, and North Korea, Syria, all the 'stans and even China?

We don't have either the resources or political will to take down every dictator on the planet(although I wish we did). This is a poor argument for not taking action in those cases where we have the opportunity to do so.

226 subsailor68  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:16:30am

re: #223 John Neverbend

Actually, it's probably Chico. "Dat's a no good boss."

Well, to quote the famous Harpo:

....

227 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:16:39am
228 calcajun  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:16:51am

re: #213 Salamantis

Another reason to get off the oil teat. It's like legalizing drugs; take away their revenue stream and they'll be back to selling rugs and pistachios within a generation. Can't buy a lot of uranium with the profits from selling nuts and floor covering --no matter how many "going out of business" sales they have.

229 gmsc  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:17:40am
230 MrSilverDragon  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:17:51am

re: #171 doubter4444

So, we know in the past that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction (look up Halabja). We also know in the past he intended to get more, and we know he wanted to have nuclear weapons in his arsenal (yellowcake in Baghdad).

These are not reasons to go in?

231 Salamantis  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:18:30am

re: #228 calcajun

Another reason to get off the oil teat. It's like legalizing drugs; take away their revenue stream and they'll be back to selling rugs and pistachios within a generation. Can't buy a lot of uranium with the profits from selling nuts and floor covering --no matter how many "going out of business" sales they have.

It can't just be the US; the whole world has to wean itself, because as long as nations are oil-dependent, they are blackmailable by a threat to halt supplies.

232 Kenneth  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:20:17am

The Taliban Can Be Stopped


The Taliban are not ten feet tall, and there is no horde of Taliban supermen overrunning either Afghanistan or Pakistan. That is not how they operate.
233 debutaunt  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:20:32am

re: #226 subsailor68

Well, to quote the famous Harpo:

....

*honk* *honk*

234 calcajun  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:20:57am

re: #231 Salamantis

It can't just be the US; the whole world has to wean itself, because as long as nations are oil-dependent, they are blackmailable by a threat to halt supplies.

I know--there's China and the whole of southern Asia. We could learn from history and what Matsushita did to Sony with VHS technology in the 80's; take the technology and license it for pennies as opposed to selling at a high price.

235 doppelganglander  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:23:36am

re: #209 Walter L. Newton

And it's to be expected, considering all the "love" he has for his fat lesbian next store neighbor. Gee, with friends like him, who needs enemies.

Did you really need to bring it up again? You're just spoiling for a fight and I don't blame KT for declining to participate.

236 Noam Sayin'  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:25:15am

re: #171 doubter4444

Ginned up?

There's simply no excuse for being so woefully ill-informed.

237 doppelganglander  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:25:30am

re: #211 avanti

Bible quotes on war briefings stopped with Obama. Seemed kind of strange to me that we had them.

Scripure.

Is it my turn to set you straight? If you read closely, you'll see that the examples cited are from April 2003. The individual responsible for the quotes retired in August of that year. There is no suggestion the quotes continued beyond that date. Fail.

238 avanti  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:26:25am

Great day, I'm out on my deck with the lap top so I can watch the Blue Angels wheel over my house practicing for the Naval Academy graduation. The weather is perfect, and the fly overs are so cool to watch. Made me think of the mid I sponsored, now graduated and at flight school, think I'll call him.

239 Jimmah  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:31:01am

re: #212 debutaunt

The comments are umm rangy.

It's just wall to wall with the festering stupidity and ignorance over there. Just one example from many:

that does it for me! I suppose I’ll just ignore all evidence that proves we didn’t evolve. . . WE FINALLY FOUND IT! We actually DID evolve from single cell organisms by chance! As dae put it. . . Thank GOD!

Hot Air is completely 'unpostable' as far as I'm concerned.

240 avanti  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:31:42am

re: #237 doppelganglander

Is it my turn to set you straight? If you read closely, you'll see that the examples cited are from April 2003. The individual responsible for the quotes retired in August of that year. There is no suggestion the quotes continued beyond that date. Fail.

You need set the Pentagon straight in their announcement from yesterday.

05/19/09 07:04 AM
Pentagon removes Bible quotes from briefings for White House
ASSOCIATED PRESS
WASHINGTON — The Pentagon said Monday it no longer includes a Bible quotation on the cover page of daily intelligence briefings it sends to the White House as was the practice during the Bush administration.

Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman said he did not know how long the Worldwide Intelligence Update cover sheets quoted from the Bible. Air Force Maj. Gen. Glen Shaffer, who was responsible for including them, retired in August 2003.

link.

241 Occasional Reader  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:32:57am

re: #171 doubter4444

If "he was a terrible person" was or becomes the reason we went in

... since, of course, there can only be one, single reason for doing anything.

242 Occasional Reader  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:35:04am

re: #171 doubter4444

Time will tell if it worked, but it was a hugh gamble, and I don't like gambling.

Hugh Gamble... didn't he star in Notting Hill?

Anyway. Please explain how leaving Saddam in power would NOT have represented a "huge gamble". Thank you.

243 Buck  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:35:57am

re: #171 doubter4444

Ya, either stop ALL evil, at the exact same time, or do nothing.


OR MAYBE beat the living crap out of one evil dictator, and put the fear into some of the others....

THEN when you threaten the next evil dictator on the list, maybe he thinks twice about how he is going to get away with continuing....

Maybe...

244 Salamantis  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:42:40am

re: #242 Occasional Reader

Hugh Gamble... didn't he star in Notting Hill?

Anyway. Please explain how leaving Saddam in power would NOT have represented a "huge gamble". Thank you.

In economics, it's called an opportunity cost, which is what you have to pay when you do nothing when presented with a dire situation.

245 hellosnackbar  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:43:50am

re#168 Salamantis,
The best analysis on the Islamist mindset I've ever read!
Great stuff Sal!You are a serious educator.

246 Noam Sayin'  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:44:07am

I think Hugh Gamble was the announcer for Green Acres and Petticoat Junction.

247 calcajun  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:47:52am

re: #242 Occasional Reader

Hugh Gamble... didn't he star in Notting Hill?

If we go to Vegas, will Hugh Gamble?

248 eddiebear  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:07:55am

re: #231 Salamantis

True. My only question is what will replace oil safely and at a minimal pain to the wallet? Unicorn droppings? Wind?

249 drcordell  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:08:54am

Wonder how many of them were waterboarded into confessing crimes against Saddam's regime? This really does show what a sick, twisted fuck Saddam Hussein was. But it still bothers me that the invasion was launched under the false pretense of a threat to the American homeland.

Yes he deserved to be overthrown, yes he deserved to die a painful death. But that's not why we were told Iraq needed to be invaded. I'd prefer Osama bin Laden's head on a pike any day than Saddam's. We wasted our resources hunting down the wrong asshole.

250 eddiebear  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:08:56am

re: #239 Jimmah

Ironically, the comments at HA are one thing, though Allah seems to only want to antagonize them in some sort of performance art.

251 doubter4444  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:14:08am

re: #214 Dianna

Not that you don't have a point, but if you mention Sudan only as Darfur, you're a poser. Myanmar is popular right now, too.

As to "terrible things happen everywhere and all the time", yes, they do.

However, you're a fool if you think that Saddam, someone that vile, in charge of a substantial section of an important resource, in the middle of a volatile area, apt to invade and otherwise destabilize his neighbors isn't something a major power is truly obliged to do something about.

This goes for Iran, as well. It's astonishing to me that the Bush administration and the current Obama administration don't recognize it.

But that's my point, there were many reasons to do this, but now it's all about how bad he was... my opinion (which I did not put in the post above) has always been about timing. I think it was the wrong time to do it, and I think the administration had to fudge to get it through. Decisions like this are a, as I said earlier a HUGE (or hugh, if you prefer!) decision and need to be made with long term goals firmly in place, and I think need to be stated clearly and truthfully to, if not the nation, to those who need to know.

I don't think adequate planning for the aftermath was done.
I don't think that invading Iraq was the correct thing to do at the time it was done.
I do think Iran is and was more dangerous to US interests in the world and the region.
I do think we've shot our load and can't dealt with them effectively in large part due to our invasion of Iraq (or at least doing so will be a much more trying experience).

252 Salamantis  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:24:08am

re: #249 drcordell

Wonder how many of them were waterboarded into confessing crimes against Saddam's regime? This really does show what a sick, twisted fuck Saddam Hussein was. But it still bothers me that the invasion was launched under the false pretense of a threat to the American homeland.

Yes he deserved to be overthrown, yes he deserved to die a painful death. But that's not why we were told Iraq needed to be invaded. I'd prefer Osama bin Laden's head on a pike any day than Saddam's. We wasted our resources hunting down the wrong asshole.

There were seventeen separate articles in the US authorization for the use of force in Iraq.

Here's what Jeffrey Herf had to say on the matter:

The "New World Order": From Unilateralism to Cosmopolitanism
[Link: www.zeit.de...]

I have two key points to make. First, it been a disappointment that after a half century of a vital and important, if often unpopular, tradition of Vergangenheitsbewältigung , a left of center German government refused to participate in – even if supported by the United Nations – a war against Saddam Hussein’s Iraq, the most dangerous regime rooted in the aftereffects of European fascism and anti-Semitism to appear on the world stage since 1945. Second, however, this same tradition may offer a foundation for German contributions to the democratization of post-Baath Iraq and to a coming to terms with the Baath past in that country.
...

The deeper source of trans-Atlantic disagreement concerns the war in Iraq. By its very nature, every preemptive war will be controversial as it must rest on a set of political judgments and intelligence assessments, almost always about dictatorial regimes whose expertise lies in deception and terror. I am not an expert on intelligence assessments. There remain literally thousands of documents in Iraq to examine. The Iraqi regime had a great deal of time to destroy evidence of its weapons programs. The argument for a preemptive war against Iraq rested on the best intelligence at the time, on Saddam’s continued refusal to display what his government had been doing but also on the nature of the Iraqi regime, its past policies and misjudgments but also on the potentially enormous financial resources at its disposal due to the possession of the world’s second largest reserves of oil. In my view, the nature of the regime received far too little attention from opponents of the war.
The most important book and the most important author to influence liberal opinion in the United States about these issues was the 1989 work, The Republic of Fear: Saddam Hussein’s Iraq by Kanan Makiya, then writing under the pseudonym, Samir Al-Khalil. Unfortunately it has not been published in German translation. The Republic of Fear did for liberal understanding of tyranny in the Middle East what Hannah Arendt’s The Origins of Totalitarianism did for the liberal understanding of Nazism and Communism after World War Two. Just as Arendt drew out the intersection of terror and ideology,. Makiya (al-Khalil) examined the melange of ideology and terror, French fascism, Stalinism and anti-Semitism which defined Baathist Iraq. He discussed both the human rights catastrophe which Saddam’s torturers were inflicting on their fellow Iraqis as well as the disaster of the Iran-Iraq war and revealed the horror of this regime even before it attacked Kuwait. Lost in the focus on UN arms inspectors was the obvious point that over time a regime of this nature in possession of vast oil reserves would eventually, without repeating the blunders of invading Iran or Kuwait, would use the money from the sale of oil to build weapons of mass destruction, including nuclear weapons. Iraq could then confront the world with the fait accompli at which point any thought of a preemptive war would be precluded by the prospect of Iraqi nuclear retaliation.

to be continued...

253 doubter4444  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:24:09am

re: #244 Salamantis

In economics, it's called an opportunity cost, which is what you have to pay when you do nothing when presented with a dire situation.

If Saddam was an immediate threat then the need was to get him, then and as quickly as possible.
If not, he was contained and COULD have been dealt with at the time when it benefited us best.

It's my belief that the time to depose him and invade was not ripe.
And I think that had it been, then a honest explanation could have been made to those who need to know and perhaps even the country (what a concept).
Instead, they sold the invasion on a "smoking gun" scenario.
I think they should have waited till Afganistan was in decent shape and concentrated on destroying the Taliban.
IMO, if that had happened and then we deposed Saddam, we just may have been able to make it work there. We still might.

254 charles_martel  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:24:52am

The photos should be required viewing for all liberals. Although I have my criticisms of the prosecution of the war, I hear so many liberals say that Saddam was not really a bad guy! And I know that that disinformation will only grow with the years.

255 Salamantis  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:26:05am

continued...

The essential dilemma of a policy of preemption is that it must rest on a set of political judgments made in conditions of uncertainty defined by intelligence estimates about tyrannical governments and murderous terrorist organizations who specialize in deception and secrecy. It cannot rest, as the Gulf War of 1990 did, on a response to aggression already undertaken. To judge by the howls of protest coming from many in Germany, one might think that debates about preemption did not play a role in thinking about German history. It seems that indeed, they have played a much too small a role. Though Saddam Hussein was not a carbon copy of Hitler, the dilemmas of preemption in the late 1930s remain relevant for the recent decision to go to war in spring 2003. Unfortunately, neither Winston Churchill’s The Gathering Storm , and, more recently in the scholarly literature, Williamson Murray’s The Change in the European Balance of Power, 1938-1939: The Path to Ruin appear to have made an impact on the German debate over Iraq. Everyone remembers that Churchill was a critic of appeasement but fewer recall that he labeled World War Two “the unnecessary war.”
He meant that if the democracies and/or the democracies in alliance with the Soviet Union had made a credible threat of force in the late 1930s, Hitler might have been overthrown by a military coup in 1938 and would have been deprived of the opportunity to launch a war at the time and place of his choosing. Williamson Murray, in his important but not widely read work, made a powerful case that a preemptive war by Britain and France in 1938 or 1939 at a time and place of their own choosing would have caught Nazi Germany at a vulnerable moment well before it had the resources necessary to defeat them. Murray offered an abundance evidence that Nazi Germany before the aggressions and expansion of 1940 was in a precarious economic position, lacked access to natural resources vital for armament in depth and was thus vulnerable to a preventive war. But, he continues, Britain and France consistently made the wrong strategic choices, minimized the reality of the Nazi threat and exaggerated German military capabilities. The clear implication of Murray’s detailed and far too neglected analysis is that Britain and France could have defeated Nazi Germany with a preemptive war which would have been far shorter than World War Two. Had they done so, there would have been no Holocaust as Nazi Germany had not yet occupied the rest of Europe along with its mineral and agricultural resources and did not have control over those areas of the continent, especially Eastern Europe, where the great majority of Europe’s Jews lived.

The uncertainties and imponderables surrounding such a war would have been considerable. There would have been no construction blueprints of gas chambers for victors to discover as these had not been drawn by 1939. There would have been few, if any, planning documents for Operation Barbarossa, such as the “Kommisarbefehl.” The enormous paper trail of meetings and decisions by Hitler, Himmler and Heydrich of summer and fall 1941, minutes of the Wannsee Conference of January 20, 1942 and speeches by Goebbels informing the world in 1941 that Hitler’s prophecies about exterminating the Jews were “now” being realized, all this would not yet have existed for the victors to demonstrate what it was they had prevented.

to be continued...

256 Salamantis  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:27:31am

continued...

Indeed, if the British and French had attack before January 30, 1939, Hitler’s infamous “prophecy” about the extermination of the Jewish race in Europe would not have been publicly uttered at all. In the aftermath of a successful preemptive war, there would have been legions of German nationalists and unreconstructed Nazis who insisted that Hitler had been a man of peace who merely the latest the latest in a long line of victims of British and French imperialism, and/or of Soviet Communism. In short such a preemptive war, which could have spared Europe the Second World War it got and prevented the Holocaust, would have been extremely controversial resting as it would have on a set of political judgments about what Hitler would do in the future if he had the opportunity to do so. The only things Churchill could point to was a set of political judgments, hunches, assessments, informed opinions based on a determination to assume that Hitler meant what said and wrote, a prescient close reading of Mein Kampf combined with a worst case assessment of the relationship between Hitler’s intentions and German armament programs in the 1930s.

do not raise this hypothetical to assert an identity between the threat between Hitler and Saddam though there are more of such similarities than the war’s opponents have been willing to acknowledge. Rather I do so to point out that even faced with the Nazi regime, a preemptive war, which would have been the right thing to do, would have rested on political judgments and intelligence assessments that were subject to great uncertainties. The grim option of a smaller war now rather than a larger and more terrible war later was, unfortunately not taken in 1938 or 1939 but fortunately was taken in the spring of 2003.

There is another comparison to the 1930s which concerns international organizations. The League of Nations lost credibility in no small degree because it failed to use force to check the rise of the fascist dictatorships. The term “United Nations” emerged during World War II as the name given to those countries which were united in alliance against Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. Had the UN failed to see its resolutions enforced in Iraq, it too would have been deeply weakened. It would have been only a matter of time before France and Russia gutted sanctions completely and Saddam or his sons could resume armament programs with oil flowing without interruption. Had Saddam, with help from France, Russia and yes, Germany, successfully faced down the United States and the UN Security Council, he would have been even more lionized both by the secular Arab nationalists as well as by Islamic fundamentalists. The radicalization of the region would have been enhanced. Sooner or later he would have built an arsenal able to make credible threats of military blackmail to other oil producing states. The prospects of a nuclear armed Iraq would put Israel’s security at risk thus adding tension to the region and increasing pressures for other Arab states to acquire weapons of mass destruction, this in a region with more political fanatics per capita facing less stable regimes than anywhere else on the planet.

As Makiya revealed in 1989, the regime of Saddam Hussein was torture chamber. While weapons of mass destruction have not yet been found, graves of over 300,000 people have been, many machined gunned to death in ways reminiscent of the Einsatzgruppen on the Eastern Front in World War II. Can there be any real doubt that if such a regime could do such things to its own citizens, it would comprise a grave threat to the world should it have acquired the arsenal Saddam was seeking?

to be continued...

257 Salamantis  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:27:57am

continued...

What is clear beyond dispute is that Saddam’s dictatorship is over. No longer with the vast oil reserves under the ground in Iraq be available to the Baath Party and its visions of dominating the region, threatening Israel, blackmailing the world economy through influence over oil supplies and possibly attacking the United States either alone or in association with radical Islamists. The possibility now exists for the first time of establishing a liberal democracy in the Middle East and to overcome its backwardness not only in relation to Europe and the United States but to democracies in Asia and Latin America.
The successful democratization of Iraq is a goal which I hope Europeans share with the United States. German journalists, lawyers, scholars and policy makers could draw on Germany’s experience dealing with the Nazi past after 1945 and the Communist regime after 1989 to help the Iraqis tell the truth about the Baath era. Kanan Mikaya is now in Iraq and directs the Iraqi Memory Foundation . While disagreements about the Iraq war will continue, I hope people in this country will draw on its experience with Vergangenheitsbewältigung of the two German dictatorships to liberal democratic government in Bagdad, restoration of the rule of law, emergence of a vital civil society in Iraq and public revelation in trials, oral histories, journalism and historical scholarship of the truth about the past regime’s crimes.

258 Salamantis  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:37:05am

For those who are geostrategically inclined, it might be noticed that our topplings of Saddam and the Taliban have boxed in Iran between US troops both east and west. If we do decide to topple Iran, this situation makes it much easier to do so waging a multi-front campaign; if we don't do so, we nevertheless benefit from the threat of such an action, and the moderating influence it must have on Iran's behavior (who knows how bad it would have been had we not been in our present position?). Their only action against us has been to attempt to undermine those campaigns, and they have been unwilling to escalate their support for indigenous Shia and infiltrating Al Qaeda elements beyond a certain rather low point, for fear of what it would tip us into in response.

However, if we DO decide to move on Iran, I believe that it would be preceded by a toppling of Assad's Syria, not only to guard our western flank against attack from behind, but also to open up their eastern Mediterranean seaports for use to transship massive amounts of military and materiel.

259 Cato  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:41:43am

re: #258 Salamantis


But Putin has been selling us as being "overextended" and has been selling Iran antiquated systems to deal with us if we are not.

260 doubter4444  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:51:41am

Buzzsaw:
All international diplomacy--of which war is a subset--is a "gamble." Always, everywhere. Yet international diplomacy is necessary--sometimes including war. There is no avoiding the gamble.

Agreed.
You gamble when the odds are best with you if you can, and put your head down and slog through when they are not. In this case I think we had the time to wait.

As far as the "tremendous cost in US blood," without minimizing in any way a single death or casualty it is necessary to point out that the US losses were, and remain, astonishingly low, as measured by any comparative endeavor and previous conflicts. They would have been lower still had the US not voluntarily hampered itself by rules of engagement which mandated greater risk to our own troops for the sake of minimizing civilian casualties.

But that's case in almost every engagement... there are rules of engagement, unless you think there is no war short of total war, which is an opinion, for sure. The US Army has alway tried to keep cilivian casualties as low as reasonably possible. I'm not sure what more we would do in a harsher fashion that would have made a difference, but I'd be interested to see.

As far as the cost in dollars, the same goes: we could have done things much faster and cheaper, if we had been prepared to be more brutal at the outset. One may argue over whether or not that was a good idea, as long as one is prepared to recognize that this was done in part to appease the vocal antiwar sentiment in the US, which it utterly failed to do.

I don't want to conflate the lack of preparation for the post war era with appeasing anti war protesters.
I think you are saying that if we went in stronger then there would be been less mess in the aftermath?
I think we did an amazing job in the beginning, and in getting Saddam out of power. The mess has been after that, are you saying pandering to the anti war crowd hampered that? How? It's a interesting point.

261 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 12:10:17pm
262 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 12:33:32pm
263 quiet man  Tue, May 19, 2009 1:53:48pm

re: #251 doubter4444

There wasn't anyone with enough guts to topple Saddam at the moment when liberals wanted him toppled. I love the idea of timing, tho...always it was the left who opposed any real action against Saddam...and why? the timing was inconvenient for them..
all of that concept is based on the idea that the Iraqis can wait a few more years...screw 'em..no reason for the US to act...all we really need to do is talk big and allow the slaughter to continue..same as we did with the Sudan.

Here is the problem with the whims of the left here...you guys never see anything worth fighting for..no more Berliners in the dem party..no more lovers of freedom and justice there either.

264 hous bin pharteen  Tue, May 19, 2009 2:05:38pm

Iron Fist, Zombie, don't fret. I have got your back.
This "water-boarding" is political nonsense. I have been 'water boarded" myself.
In ranger training with the Army. Sure, it was scary, but thats all. We had some training with what to do if you were captured. It was in the field, so no Doctor's watching. It was just like learning to swim in catholic grade school where you end up trying to breath underwater. But I also had to deal with many "liberals" during college then. They were anti-military then, but they always loved dictators like Che, Fidel, Marx, etc. But there idea of being strong then was protests followed by pot parties. Colleges were filled by nut-job proffesours, who loved to teach, but not have a real job where you had to "work" for a living. But kids had to borrow and pay so much money to make those worthless faculty members rich and then take long summers off.
Those faculty and trained liberal students would shit there pants and cry for there parents in just a little of military training.

265 hous bin pharteen  Tue, May 19, 2009 2:12:39pm

But I must confence. Having crew cuts and suntanes drove the libs nuts. Having long hair and beards did not work as well with the ladies. Having a crew cut always made the ladies want to run their fingers over it. ;-)

266 blangwort  Tue, May 19, 2009 2:57:46pm

I'm going to part ways with most of you lizards.

This has nothing to do with whether or not we torture potential intelligence targets. This has to do with why we went in to Iraq.

If we torture or even threaten a prisoner captured by the military, no matter who it is, we're no better than the thugs who ran Iraq. Saying dumb stuff like That's not Torture, THIS is torture evades the question. If we're not truly bringing a better way of life to them or removing them as a threat to us, then what are we doing?

We must show them that their ways are wrong. We must show them that our ways work. We need to win their hearts and minds, or all this will be for nothing.

I supported the Iraq war. I thought it was the right thing to do and I still do. Don't prove me wrong by diminishing what happened in Abu Ghreb.

267 swamprat  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:05:46pm

re: #266 blangwort

I'm going to part ways with most of you lizards.

This has nothing to do with whether or not we torture potential intelligence targets. This has to do with why we went in to Iraq.

If we torture or even threaten a prisoner captured by the military, no matter who it is, we're no better than the thugs who ran Iraq.

Unless we refrain from mass murdering the citizens, give them the right to vote, use torture only when lives are at ststake, so that we trade life itself for mere extreme discomfort; Yes if we don't do these things, we are no better than those who were murdering their own citizens.

Saying dumb stuff like That's not Torture, THIS is torture evades the question. If we're not truly bringing a better way of life to them or removing them as a threat to us, then what are we doing?

Apparently, the right to vote and guide your own future holds no value to you; this is a typical stance of the dictator-loving left, that is why they love Che and Castro and Stalin and Lenin, and Mao and Ho Chi Min, etc

We must show them that their ways are wrong. We must show them that our ways work. We need to win their hearts and minds, or all this will be for nothing.

Perhaps we can achieve this by giving them the right to vote, and overthrowing their overlords.

I supported the Iraq war. I thought it was the right thing to do and I still do. Don't prove me wrong by diminishing what happened in Abu Ghreb

Because nothing says torture like making prisoners form a human cheerleader tower.
.


But hey, it's all good 'cause you support the troops!

Thanks. It's been awhile since I had this much fun!

268 Turtler  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:59:30pm

Firstly, I must say that is a sickening find Charles, in a "good" way: in this apparently unrewarding slog to the top, we can only keep one eye on the light at the end of the tunnel and the other at what would have happened had we not acted.

re: #171 doubter4444

Alright, it appears that somebody needs a few lessons....

You know, to all those who feel this not just vindicates the invasion, but justifies it, I gotta call bull s@#t.

Firstly, you may call "bull s@#t" all you want, but it does not make it so.

Secondly, as for you point about the various crackpots, may I point out that most of Africa cannot launch a massive attack on our allies for the sake of shutting our lifeline in the Persian Gulf (and YES, the oil) while funding attacks against us in our own backyard?

As for the China-North Korea-"Mayanamar" (re: Myanmar, or legitimately Burma), do you realize that one does not go to war against a superpower- particularly a NUCLEAR superpower with the largest standing military on the planet- lightly? Such an event would almost certainly lead to a conflict the size and cost of WWI or WWII, if not far greater.

Sadly, that particular time bomb will probably happen sooner or later, but there is no need to do so now, when we are facing Russia and the Global Jihad.

The Syrians are probably on our hitlist, and we'll probably take them out a few years down the road.

As for the 'stans, if we need to to prevent Russian, Chinese, or Islamist intervention, than we should. But that will not be easy, given their locations.

And yes,, Saddam was a terrible person, and $hit does happen at every moment across the world.

But Saddam WAS a great strategic threat, considering his arsenal, his ambition, and his ties to the Islamists. And this is without paying attention to the WMD or Gulf War Ceasefire breaches.

Tripe like this was merely the icing on the cake.

As for the whole "world policeman" tripe, it is true. But the fact is that SOMEBODY has to. Had the British and French not been so 1880-1914 and 1919-1949, who were the alternatives: Bismarckean Germany, Nazi Germany, Imperial Russia, the USSR, or the Japanese Empire?

If we decide to call it quits, who steps into the vacuum? China? Russia? The Jihad? It is not an easy burden, but unless you desire to sleep at night entrusting our freedoms and lives to the likes of them, we must do this thankless tripe over and over again.

Ultimately, this is merely the icing on the cake of our justification, not the justification itself.

But it is damn potent icing.

269 blangwort  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:55:29am

re: #267 swamprat

I'll only ask you this: what happens to most slaves when you take off their chains after a lifetime of knowing nothing else? The answer: NOTHING. The chains they have are usually mental. They'll keep doing what they've always done.

Why do you think Iran descended from the Shah to Ayatollah Khomeini? They didn't know any better! Carter had his head up his ass if he really thought that leaving them alone would make for a stable, democratic government.

There is a bootstrap that we can use to bring democracy to the Middle East, but it won't happen simply because they all immediately see its value. Exposing a large Arab society to freedom after a lifetime of cowering before thugs and knowing nothing else does not work. You have to spoon a society slowly until democracy takes hold. It's a long, slow process.

You treat it as if it were a trivial detail. These things take generations to sort out. Regardless of what GWB said about nation building, that's exactly what we're doing in Iraq. We have no choice. There are no shortcuts.


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