Video Widget: Watchmen Preview

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The director’s cut of the incredible film Watchmen is now available at Amazon’s Video on Demand, to watch immediately over the web. Friends told me about the Watchmen graphic novel years ago; I bought it and started to read, but for some reason never got drawn in enough to finish it. But this film is really spectacular — not just for its special effects, but for its excellent acting, complex characters, and intelligent plot. It’s a great Saturday night movie. I highly recommend it, and give it three lizard tails.

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(If you follow the link from this post to watch the movie, LGF gets a small cut of the purchase price through Amazon’s Associates program. Or if you prefer, follow this link to get the movie through iTunes in widescreen resolution, with a Dolby Digital 5.1 soundtrack.) External Image

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423 comments
1 legalpad  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:26:12pm

Saturday night. What the hell are you doing home?

2 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:26:43pm

re: #1 legalpad

Saturday night. What the hell are you doing home?

Watching Watchmen, what else?

3 DEZes  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:27:10pm

re: #2 Charles

Watching Watchmen, what else?

Is it worth seeing?

4 legalpad  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:28:23pm

re: #2 Charles

Watching Watchmen, what else?

I just finished googling you. Wow. Don't ever do that. There are some crazy folks out there. It's exhausting reading.

5 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:28:24pm

re: #1 legalpad

Saturday night. What the hell are you doing home?

Plotting.

6 Cato the Elder  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:32:58pm

Link?

7 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:34:21pm

I'll wait for the director's cut on DVD, watching internet video is not my idea of entertainment.

8 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:35:50pm

re: #5 Sharmuta

Plotting.

And here I thought he was deep into scheming of how he could inhabit even more moonbat heads.

9 DEZes  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:35:51pm

re: #7 FurryOldGuyJeans

I'll wait for the director's cut on DVD, watching internet video is not my idea of entertainment.

The movie is on DVD now, came real close to buying it unseen.
They do have a 2 disk set, a directors cut maybe years away.

10 tedzilla99  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:36:43pm

I watched the theatrical version the other day - and having read the novel twice, I'll say that the film does a great job of capturing the novel, but the novel is better - which is nearly always the case. Charles, I'd encourage you to finish Watchmen - especially after having seen the film...there are some interesting differences that you might enjoy, if you enjoyed the film.

11 albusteve  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:36:49pm

3 LTs...a robust endowment

12 jcm  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:37:07pm

re: #7 FurryOldGuyJeans

I'll wait for the director's cut on DVD, watching internet video is not my idea of entertainment.

Not enough band width for HD?

13 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:37:44pm

re: #9 DEZes

The movie is on DVD now, came real close to buying it unseen.
They do have a 2 disk set, a directors cut maybe years away.

Then I can wait. The director's cut of of a movie is for me was well worth the wait usually. I've got more than enough movies in my library/Netflix/Blockbuster queues already for last me a while.

14 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:38:15pm

re: #10 tedzilla99

So- what was with your downding on Don Black inspiring racism?

15 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:38:54pm

re: #12 jcm

Not enough band width for HD?

I just prefer watching something on DVD, even with my 25 year old Sony Analog TV.

16 DEZes  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:39:20pm

re: #13 FurryOldGuyJeans

Then I can wait. The director's cut of of a movie is for me was well worth the wait usually. I've got more than enough movies in my library/Netflix/Blockbuster queues already for last me a while.

I have a nice collection as well, but I can be a tad impatient. ;)

17 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:39:56pm
Synopsis: A complex, multi-layered mystery adventure, "Watchmen" is set in an alternate 1985 America in which costumed superheroes are part of the fabric of everyday society...

I think I've seen this somewhere before.

Youtube Video
18 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:41:08pm

re: #16 DEZes

I have a nice collection as well, but I can be a tad impatient. ;)

I watch, on average, about 15-20 DVDs a week, so impatient I ain't. Add in my main interest being old TV shows or non-fiction documentaries and I am more than glutted.

19 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:42:00pm

Another alternate 1985 ?

Synopsis: A complex, multi-layered mystery adventure, "Watchmen" is set in an alternate 1985 America in which costumed superheroes are part of the fabric of everyday society, and the Doomsday Clock--which charts the USA's tension with the Soviet Union--moves closer to midnight.

Gees, Doc, what the hell did you bring back in the DeLorean ?

20 DEZes  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:42:44pm

re: #18 FurryOldGuyJeans

I watch, on average, about 15-20 DVDs a week, so impatient I ain't. Add in my main interest being old TV shows or non-fiction documentaries and I am more than glutted.

I see, You are satiated.

21 ladycatnip  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:42:52pm

Would that be three out of five lizard tails, Charles?

My DH and I watched Defiance last night - amazing story that was left out of the history books.

22 Silvergirl  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:42:59pm

Hi FurryOldGuyJeans. You have a mad down-dinger to your links on the front page. I added my plus to get rid of them.

23 Gus  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:43:01pm

re: #17 NJDhockeyfan

I think I've seen this somewhere before.


[Video]

He can repair all bicycles except those with a Kryptonite lock.

//

24 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:43:11pm
Youtube Video

Obama: 'Victory' Not Necessarily Goal in Afghanistan

"I'm always worried about using the word 'victory,' because, you know, it invokes this notion of Emperor Hirohito coming down and signing a surrender to MacArthur," Obama told ABC News.

/nice wiff "student of history"

25 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:43:48pm

re: #17 NJDhockeyfan

I think I've seen this somewhere before.


[Video]

Superman takes the bus.

LOL

26 legalpad  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:44:21pm

re: #24 Killian Bundy

[Video]Obama: 'Victory' Not Necessarily Goal in Afghanistan

/nice wiff "student of history"

So - why do people say this guy is "smart"?

27 albusteve  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:44:22pm

re: #22 Silvergirl

Hi FurryOldGuyJeans. You have a mad down-dinger to your links on the front page. I added my plus to get rid of them.

so what does that mean exactly?...up/down?

28 DEZes  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:44:51pm

re: #24 Killian Bundy

[Video]Obama: 'Victory' Not Necessarily Goal in Afghanistan

/nice wiff "student of history"

Victory is not the goal?
What the hell are our our troops, toys for an idiot?

29 Silvergirl  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:45:07pm

re: #27 albusteve

so what does that mean exactly?...up/down?

What? Am I being clear as mud again?

30 albusteve  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:45:09pm

re: #26 legalpad

So - why do people say this guy is "smart"?

because they are stupid

31 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:45:38pm

re: #23 Gus 802

He can repair all bicycles except those with a Kryptonite lock.

/heavy, but those are damn good bike locks

32 sillyquiet  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:46:15pm

Recommend the movie as well, but not for kids or people squeamish about gore and naughty bits. The movie is very successful at keeping the 1980s feel of it. The graphic novel was written in the 80s by a leftist British guy who is kinda weird even by leftist British guy standards, but even so, pretty good.

Bought the Blu-ray Director's Cut version of this movie. Also comes with a theatrical-release version 'digital copy' which you can keep on your iShiny if you like.

33 Cato the Elder  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:46:18pm

Nice Pat Buchanan impression in the trailer. Too bad he's not a comic hero instead of a real-life scumbucket.

34 WindHorse  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:46:21pm

re: #30 albusteve

and they act stupidly...

/like typical stupid people do...

35 albusteve  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:46:40pm

re: #29 Silvergirl

What? Am I being clear as mud again?

it's a passion that's over my head I guess...no offense

36 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:46:46pm

re: #24 Killian Bundy

[Video]Obama: 'Victory' Not Necessarily Goal in Afghanistan

/nice wiff "student of history"

Gibbs in Monday: "What he

meant

to say was..."

37 Gus  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:46:54pm

re: #31 Killian Bundy

/heavy, but those are damn good bike locks

I've got one here someplace. Makes for a good defensive "tool" as well.

38 DEZes  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:47:55pm

re: #26 legalpad

So - why do people say this guy is "smart"?

To them he is smart, which gives insight to their level of their brain functions.

39 Silvergirl  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:48:05pm

re: #35 albusteve

it's a passion that's over my head I guess...no offense

No offense taken. Especially since I don't know what you mean.

40 albusteve  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:48:59pm

re: #36 NJDhockeyfan

to say was..."

Gibbs is gonna have a medical condition before the year is out, bet me

41 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:49:08pm

Kinda related to the topic, The Bubblegum Crisis movie has been confirmed at Cannes and here's a offical teaser poster [Link: rocketraygun.deviantart.com...]


here'sa wiki on the subject

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

42 Panhandler  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:50:13pm

re: #24 Killian Bundy
President Articulate - "it invokes a picture---

43 srb1976  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:51:06pm

Later folks...4 am comes very early

44 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:51:16pm

re: #20 DEZes

I see, You are satiated.

One of the 'benefits' of being military disabled. So waiting for the "better" version of a movie is not that onerous, really. And for me a director's cut is usually much better than the theatrical version.

45 legalpad  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:51:30pm

re: #39 Silvergirl

No offense taken. Especially since I don't know what you mean.

He was originally inquiring about what you meant on your #22

46 albusteve  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:52:26pm

re: #39 Silvergirl

No offense taken. Especially since I don't know what you mean.

referring to the ding...and it's associated intricacies...who's dinging who, that sort of thing...people have actually posted "I want more dings!"...etc

47 legalpad  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:54:35pm

re: #38 DEZes

To them he is smart, which gives insight to their level of their brain functions.

I think they imagine him to be smart in their virtual world. Whoever perceive as agreeing with them is smart. It's a substitute for an argument containing facts and reasoning. "Smart people agree with us, so how can anyone disagree?"

48 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:54:51pm

re: #22 Silvergirl

Hi FurryOldGuyJeans. You have a mad down-dinger to your links on the front page. I added my plus to get rid of them.

No biggie to me; besides the karma ranking on a spinoff is not summated into a user's total, still I am militantly indifferent to the karma thing.

re: #46 albusteve

referring to the ding...and it's associated intricacies...who's dinging who, that sort of thing...people have actually posted "I want more dings!"...etc

It was about someone who doesn't bother chatting running rampant in the spinoffs with their dingy finger. See above for how it relates to me. ;)

49 Silvergirl  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:55:16pm

re: #45 legalpad

He was originally inquiring about what you meant on your #22

On the front page where the links are found, FurryOldGuyJeans has posted several. Someone came through and down-dinged every single one of them for whatever kooky reason. I was just telling him that he must have a "fan" in the form of a mad down-dinger. I was telling him they don't show as a minus because I dinged them all up to make them even.

50 DEZes  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:55:22pm

re: #44 FurryOldGuyJeans

One of the 'benefits' of being military disabled. So waiting for the "better" version of a movie is not that onerous, really. And for me a director's cut is usually much better than the theatrical version.

First off, let me thank you for your service, And I hate to hear you paid a heavy price.
Enjoy the movies as you will, you have earned it IMHO.

51 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:56:13pm

How bout some Gov't Mule for a Saturday night?

Youtube Video
52 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:56:59pm

re: #41 Jewels (AKA Julian)

Kinda related to the topic, The Bubblegum Crisis movie has been confirmed at Cannes and here's a offical teaser poster [Link: rocketraygun.deviantart.com...]

here'sa wiki on the subject

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

The main antagonist is Genom, a megacorporation with immense power and global influence. Its main product are boomers - cyborgs used for manual labor and military purposes.

I want a boomer. Sounds like an interesting show.

53 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:57:22pm

re: #41 Jewels (AKA Julian)

Kinda related to the topic, The Bubblegum Crisis movie has been confirmed at Cannes and here's a offical teaser poster [Link: rocketraygun.deviantart.com...]

here'sa wiki on the subject

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

That would be good news for the friends I have who are anime fans.

54 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:57:35pm

re: #49 Silvergirl

On the front page where the links are found, FurryOldGuyJeans has posted several. Someone came through and down-dinged every single one of them for whatever kooky reason. I was just telling him that he must have a "fan" in the form of a mad down-dinger. I was telling him they don't show as a minus because I dinged them all up to make them even.

Said person didn't down them all, just a wide and eclectic variety. Must not like that I don't spamvertise a blog, I link to actual news sources.

55 albusteve  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:57:54pm

re: #48 FurryOldGuyJeans

It was about someone who doesn't bother chatting running rampant in the spinoffs with their dingy finger. See above for how it relates to me. ;)

I may be just trying to start a ding squabble...is there a Board of Appeal?, I don't think people should be unfairly dinged...except me of course

56 legalpad  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:58:08pm

re: #49 Silvergirl

Found it. I've never looked at them before.

57 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:59:05pm

re: #55 albusteve

I may be just trying to start a ding squabble...is there a Board of Appeal?, I don't think people should be unfairly dinged...except me of course

On that I am MILITANTLY indifferent. ;)

58 JamesW  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:59:10pm

Charles, read the Graphic novel. Seriously. There are things they could not do in the movie or only alluded to that come in brilliantly in the novel.

59 Gus  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:59:24pm

re: #24 Killian Bundy

[Video]

Obama: 'Victory' Not Necessarily Goal in Afghanistan

/nice wiff "student of history"

Hirohito signed the formal surrender in front of MacCarthur? Really? And Hirohito was on the USS Missouri on September 2, 1945?

Obama gets it wrong again.

60 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:59:33pm

re: #55 albusteve

I may be just trying to start a ding squabble...is there a Board of Appeal?, I don't think people should be unfairly dinged...except me of course

9th Circuit ?

I've heard they're ding bats.

61 albusteve  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:59:36pm

re: #54 FurryOldGuyJeans

Said person didn't down them all, just a wide and eclectic variety. Must not like that I don't spamvertise a blog, I link to actual news sources.

really...I can't even imagine just one person disliking you...there must be scores...at least

62 Panhandler  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:00:11pm

re: #59 Gus 802

Hirohito signed the formal surrender in front of MacCarthur? Really? And Hirohito was on the USS Missouri on September 2, 1945?

Obama gets it wrong again.

When they dropped the bomb on Pearl Harbor?

63 DEZes  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:00:20pm

re: #59 Gus 802

Hirohito signed the formal surrender in front of MacCarthur? Really? And Hirohito was on the USS Missouri on September 2, 1945?

Obama gets it wrong again.

Big surprise aint it.

64 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:00:34pm

re: #59 Gus 802

Hirohito signed the formal surrender in front of MacCarthur? Really? And Hirohito was on the USS Missouri on September 2, 1945?

Obama gets it wrong again.

So far I doubt he has gotten any historical event correct.

65 Gus  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:00:36pm

re: #62 Panhandler

When they dropped the bomb on Pearl Harbor?

That was the British.

///

66 albusteve  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:00:55pm

re: #51 NJDhockeyfan

How bout some Gov't Mule for a Saturday night?


hell yeah...

67 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:00:57pm

re: #62 Panhandler

When they dropped the bomb on Pearl Harbor?

I thought the Germans did that.

//

68 Wishbone  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:01:04pm

Shit, boys and grls... It's a movie... and a bloody good one at that...

Jackie Earle Haley as Rorschach is a work of art... Anyone wanting to be f***ed up only wishes they can be that f***ed up.

You know... sometimes... they get it right.

69 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:01:12pm

re: #65 Gus 802

That was the British.

///

Nah, that was the French and the Germans!

70 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:01:19pm

re: #66 albusteve

hell yeah...

I knew you would like that.

71 Gus  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:01:28pm

re: #64 FurryOldGuyJeans

So far I doubt he has gotten any historical event correct.

But, but, I thought he was the smartest man on Earth! ;)

/

72 DEZes  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:01:40pm

re: #67 NJDhockeyfan

I thought the Germans did that.

//

Just before the Toga party.

73 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:02:00pm

re: #71 Gus 802

But, but, I thought he was the smartest man on Earth! ;)

/

That was your first mistake, thinking! ;)

74 ladycatnip  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:02:18pm

OT

Here's some highlights of the health care bill (thanks to The Anchoress):

Pg 22 of the HC Bill mandates the Government will audit books of all employers that self insure. Can you imagine what that will do to small businesses? Every one will abandon “self insurance” and go on Government insurance. So when Obama says that there will still be private health care, it’s simply a lie: this mandate will force employers to abandon their private plans.

Pg 30 Sec 123 of HC bill – a Government committee (good luck with that!) will decide what treatments/benefits a person may receive.

Pg 29 lines 4-16 in the HC bill – YOUR HEALTHCARE WILL BE RATIONED! (We all knew this, because health care is rationed in Canada and Britain, but Obama kept saying it would not be).

Pg 42 of HC Bill – The Health Choices Commissioner will choose your HC Benefits for you. You will have no choice!

Pg 58 HC Bill – Government will have real-time access to individual’s finances and a National ID Healthcard will be issued!

Pg 59 HC Bill lines 21-24 Government will have direct access to your bank accts for election funds transfer

PG 65 Sec 164 is a payoff subsidized plan for retirees and their families in Unions & community organizations (read: ACORN).

Pg 72 Lines 8-14 Government will create an HC Exchange to bring private HC plans under Government control.

Here's a link to the NYTimes article by Peter Singer, who explains why Obama's plan should ration health care.

In the current U.S. debate over health care reform, “rationing” has become a dirty word. Meeting last month with five governors, President Obama urged them to avoid using the term, apparently for fear of evoking the hostile response that sank the Clintons’ attempt to achieve reform.

75 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:02:57pm

re: #74 ladycatnip

Highlights for a 2000 page bill, that would be a novel in and of itself.

76 Gus  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:03:22pm

re: #67 NJDhockeyfan

I thought the Germans did that.

//

The sirens of the Ju-87s Stukas could be heard in downtown Honolulu.

//

77 ThingFish  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:03:27pm

I read "The Watchmen" back in junior high school. Just reread it in preparation for the movie about 6 months ago. The movie looks beautiful from the trailer, but I haven't seen it yet.

my $.02

78 Panhandler  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:03:48pm

re: #65 Gus 802

re: #67 NJDhockeyfan

re: #69 FurryOldGuyJeans
During the campaign last fall President Articulate made reference to when "the Japanese dropped the bomb (singular) on Pearl Harbor".

79 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:04:37pm

re: #59 Gus 802

Hirohito signed the formal surrender in front of MacCarthur? Really? And Hirohito was on the USS Missouri on September 2, 1945?

Obama gets it wrong again.

Ignorance and arrogance, a really bad combination and a combination found in our president. We're screwed.

80 legalpad  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:04:51pm

re: #74 ladycatnip

Great. Now we know who to bribe.

81 albusteve  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:04:52pm

re: #70 NJDhockeyfan

I knew you would like that.

one thing leads to another...backwards

Youtube Video
82 ladycatnip  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:04:54pm

Hi FOGJ,

That's the problem with all this crap Obama is ramrodding through Congress. No one has the time nor the desire to wade through it all.

83 Gus  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:05:11pm

re: #78 Panhandler

re: #67 NJDhockeyfan

re: #69 FurryOldGuyJeans
During the campaign last fall President Articulate made reference to when "the Japanese dropped the bomb (singular) on Pearl Harbor".

He did? I can believe it.

I've been thinking of him as President Platitude on my end.

84 DEZes  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:05:24pm

re: #79 Dark_Falcon

Ignorance and arrogance, a really bad combination and a combination found in our president. We're screwed.

The man is stupid, and smug about it.

85 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:05:37pm

re: #78 Panhandler

re: #67 NJDhockeyfan

re: #69 FurryOldGuyJeans
During the campaign last fall President Articulate made reference to when "the Japanese dropped the bomb (singular) on Pearl Harbor".

And that matters to the American Idol saturated voting public how?

86 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:06:15pm

re: #52 SasquatchOnSteroids

They recently released the 8 OVA's in Blu-Ray...and I'm seeing details I've never seen before. the show is somewhere between Streets of Fire and Blade Runner. and it'sa blast to watch

87 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:06:25pm

re: #83 Gus 802

He did? I can believe it.

I've been thinking of him as President Platitude on my end.

For my two cents he is Our Man Obama, a bad 60's TV show cool cat character.

88 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:06:30pm

re: #59 Gus 802

Hirohito signed the formal surrender in front of MacCarthur? Really? And Hirohito was on the USS Missouri on September 2, 1945?

Obama gets it wrong again.

Youtube Video

/cut him some slack, he's TOTUS

89 Gus  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:07:07pm

re: #84 DEZes

The man is stupid, and smug about it.

Next thing you know he'll say something about "Hitler surrendering to the Americans and the Russians."

90 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:07:28pm

re: #82 ladycatnip

Hi FOGJ,

That's the problem with all this crap Obama is ramrodding through Congress. No one has the time nor the desire to wade through it all.

The real kicker, for me, is that not even our elected representatives read the things they vote on.

91 legalpad  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:07:31pm

re: #75 FurryOldGuyJeans

Highlights for a 2000 page bill, that would be a novel in and of itself.

2000 pages. They should have announced it when they first started to write it so our hardworking congress people could get started on it.

92 Mad Al-Jaffee  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:07:38pm

Watchmen is an amazing book (not a comic book, not a graphic novel - it was a mini series that was republished as a trade paperback), and it changed comic books forever.

I first read it as a teenager in the 80s, in a time when it seemed like nuclear war was eventually going to happen. I read it many times later, after the fall of the Berlin Wall and I was still mesmerized by it.

I never thought a movie version would ever be possible when I first read if, but that was long before cgi and other effects came along. And since the visuals of the book are like a movie or a storyboard, I thought a movie of it should look exactly like the book and if it was ever made it should be a 12 hour or more made for HBO or another cable network series.

When I saw the movie, I was amazed. Snyder really got everything right with it, and changed things in the plot to make it work better as a movie. I'm going to wait until the next version of it comes out on dvd (apparently a box set with all kinds of extras), but I might get the director's cut from Netflix and watch it again.

I encourage all lizards to read the book (you can get it from your public library) and watch the movie.

It's not a superhero movie, it's more like a sci-fi story that asks how much would you sacrifice to save the world.

93 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:07:59pm

re: #84 DEZes

The man is stupid, and smug about it.

I curdled up over his "teachable moments" bullshit.

There are such things as learnable moments, but of course when you know everything...what more is there to learn ?

Back in line, ants.

94 albusteve  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:08:25pm

re: #87 FurryOldGuyJeans

For my two cents he is Our Man Obama, a bad 60's TV show cool cat character.

then there was Obama Knows Best...

95 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:09:36pm

re: #94 albusteve

then there was Obama Knows Best...

Not to put too fine a point on it, I was going for Bill Cosby's character in I Spy.

96 ladycatnip  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:10:03pm

#84 DEZes

The man is stupid, and smug about it.

I've never seen a guy with so many serious, disapproving, frowning, glaring, jaw-jutting, jaw-setting, down-turned lips and looking down the nose stern leader pics in all my life. I said before he must practice for hours to get it just right. Every time his pic is on Drudge there's a new nuanced look.

Love to see an SNL skit on that.

97 lurking faith  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:10:08pm

Watchmen was the comic that caused me to read comics as an adult.

I thought they did a very good job on the movie. Faithful without being slavish. I know some critics complained about it being too faithful, especially in the imagery, but the original art was so striking that I would have been disappointed if the overall look had been altered much. Simultaneously brightly colored and yet dark and gritty.

I do make a point of warning people who haven't read the comic that there are a few occasions of serious gore.

98 DEZes  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:10:34pm

re: #89 Gus 802

Next thing you know he'll say something about "Hitler surrendering to the Americans and the Russians."

People have mistaken sweet talk for intelligence.
Obama is happy to remove all doubt about his ignorance, and his worshipers are happy to celebrate it.
I need a drink.

99 legalpad  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:11:01pm

re: #87 FurryOldGuyJeans

For my two cents he is Our Man Obama, a bad 60's TV show cool cat character.

Top Cat?

100 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:11:11pm

re: #96 ladycatnip

#84 DEZes

I've never seen a guy with so many serious, disapproving, frowning, glaring, jaw-jutting, jaw-setting, down-turned lips and looking down the nose stern leader pics in all my life. I said before he must practice for hours to get it just right. Every time his pic is on Drudge there's a new nuanced look.

Love to see an SNL skit on that.

All of what you just wrote could be summarized by Spoiled And Petulant. ;)

101 DEZes  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:11:52pm

re: #96 ladycatnip

#84 DEZes

I've never seen a guy with so many serious, disapproving, frowning, glaring, jaw-jutting, jaw-setting, down-turned lips and looking down the nose stern leader pics in all my life. I said before he must practice for hours to get it just right. Every time his pic is on Drudge there's a new nuanced look.

Love to see an SNL skit on that.

We are all beneath him, it shows all too well.

102 Panhandler  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:12:07pm

re: #93 SasquatchOnSteroids

I curdled up over his "teachable moments" bullshit.

There are such things as learnable moments, but of course when you know everything...what more is there to learn ?

Back in line, ants.

He didn't learn anything, the teachable remark was diredted towards the bitter clingers.

103 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:12:21pm

re: #99 legalpad

Top Cat?

See my #95.

104 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:12:44pm

re: #102 Panhandler

He didn't learn anything, the teachable remark was diredted towards the bitter clingers.

well, duh, that was the whole point of my post ?

105 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:13:18pm

re: #101 DEZes

We are all beneath him, it shows all too well.

Of course we're beneath him. Most of us actually worked to get where we are, Our Man Obama got there on quota.

106 Gus  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:13:22pm

re: #98 DEZes

People have mistaken sweet talk for intelligence.
Obama is happy to remove all doubt about his ignorance, and his worshipers are happy to celebrate it.
I need a drink.

Yeah. You know how it is in the popular culture today. "Looking the part" is half the battle. Or harkening back to radio days "sounding the part" or in this case "sounding smart" yet not really knowing what he's talking about. It's all a part of that elocution trend that became popular during the late 70s around campuses.

107 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:13:32pm

Gates is now saying this "isn't about him."

I think it is; it is entirely about one person overreacting to a routine police request.

108 poteen  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:13:33pm

re: #88 Killian Bundy

Youtube Video

/cut him some slack, he's TOTUS

/I would if he had a public school education but his grandma paid for that shit!

109 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:14:16pm

re: #106 Gus 802

Yeah. You know how it is in the popular culture today. "Looking the part" is half the battle. Or harkening back to radio days "sounding the part" or in this case "sounding smart" yet not really knowing what he's talking about. It's all a part of that elocution trend that became popular during the late 70s around campuses.

Our Man Obama LOOKS Presidential, so that makes him such for all his worshipers.

110 lurking faith  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:14:17pm

Here we have a perfectly good movie/comics thread, and we're going on about TOTUS?

Yikes.

I'm gonna go get riesling or ice cream. Not sure which.

111 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:14:24pm

re: #81 albusteve

one thing leads to another...backwards


Excellent!

Have another.

Youtube Video
112 poteen  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:14:47pm

re: #99 legalpad

Top Cat?

See my avatar.

113 Panhandler  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:15:08pm

re: #104 SasquatchOnSteroids

Upon reflection and re-reading I sense the nuance of your post.

114 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:15:40pm

re: #76 Gus 802

The sirens of the Ju-87s Stukas could be heard in downtown Honolulu.

//

That's the problem: Most people don't know what a Ju-87 was, and they don't know much about WWII in general. I mentioned D-Day in relation to its 65th anniversary this year and got greeted with blank stares.

115 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:15:46pm

re: #104 SasquatchOnSteroids

well, duh, that was the whole point of my post ?

What? You actually try to make a point when you post something? Yeesh! ;)

116 DEZes  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:16:04pm

re: #107 EmmmieG

Gates is now saying this "isn't about him."

I think it is; it is entirely about one person overreacting to a routine police request.

Obama has made it all about himself. ;)

Seriously, gates is trying to sound humble.
He is a...
Any ladies in the room, cause I almost cussed like a sailor.

117 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:16:10pm

re: #113 Panhandler

Upon reflection and re-reading I sense the nuance of your post.

My fingers can't hold their liquor some nights.

118 Panhandler  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:16:19pm

re: #110 lurking faith

Reisling float?

119 legalpad  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:16:23pm

re: #112 poteen

See my avatar.

Beretta with cat?

120 Mad Al-Jaffee  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:16:40pm

All Watchmen fans here need to see this:

Youtube Video
121 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:16:53pm

re: #117 SasquatchOnSteroids

My fingers can't hold their liquor some nights.

Bad fingers! Bad!

122 Gus  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:17:27pm

re: #114 Dark_Falcon

That's the problem: Most people don't know what a Ju-87 was, and they don't know much about WWII in general. I mentioned D-Day in relation to its 65th anniversary this year and got greeted with blank stares.

Oh yeah. You know I'll mention current events to some people and get greeted with blank stares.

123 Racer X  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:17:51pm

re: #107 EmmmieG

Gates is now saying this "isn't about him."

I think it is; it is entirely about one person overreacting to a routine police request.

"This isn't about me"

Translation: I fucked up, but I'm not going to admit it.

124 ladycatnip  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:18:43pm

#100 FOGJ

All of what you just wrote could be summarized by Spoiled And Petulant. ;)

Love that! Economy of words - short, sweet and to the point.

125 DEZes  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:19:17pm

re: #124 ladycatnip

#100 FOGJ

Love that! Economy of words - short, sweet and to the point.

Conservative. ;)

126 albusteve  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:19:26pm

things happen

Youtube Video
127 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:19:38pm

re: #116 DEZes

Obama has made it all about himself. ;)

Seriously, gates is trying to sound humble.
He is a...
Any ladies in the room, cause I almost cussed like a sailor.

Our Man Obama's essential personality trait can't make it about anything else.

You need Sailor Cussing Lessons? ;)

128 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:20:10pm

re: #125 DEZes

Conservative. ;)

Calvin Coolidge is my hero! (at least for speaking)

129 legalpad  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:20:17pm

re: #123 Racer X

"This isn't about me"

Translation: I fucked up, but I'm not going to admit it.

You speak that language I see.

130 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:20:22pm

re: #122 Gus 802

Oh yeah. You know I'll mention current events to some people and get greeted with blank stares.

Painful, isn't it. That one of the reasons I like it here: I can discuss my interests with people who share them.

131 Panhandler  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:20:31pm

re: #126 albusteve

"embedding disabled - Don't they just though?
/

132 DEZes  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:21:29pm

re: #127 FurryOldGuyJeans

Our Man Obama's essential personality trait can't make it about anything else.

You need Sailor Cussing Lessons? ;)

I never turn down a good lesson.

133 Macker  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:22:13pm

re: #120 Mad Al-Jaffee

All Watchmen fans here need to see this:

Dang! The animation is even 1980s-ish! 1,000,000 updings!

134 quiet man  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:22:49pm

Air Force cussin is some good cussin, too!

135 ladycatnip  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:23:08pm

Well, 'nite all - thanks for the laughs about Our Man Obama, The Spoiled and The Petulant.

136 Silvergirl  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:23:44pm

re: #102 Panhandler

He didn't learn anything, the teachable remark was diredted towards the bitter clingers.

Obama's poll numbers will continue their dive and his followers will start waking up to what the man is about. What will be left for The Left will be their own bitter clinging to that warm and sunny idea of Hope and Change.

137 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:24:05pm

re: #122 Gus 802

Oh yeah. You know I'll mention current events to some people and get greeted with blank stares.

You mention ANYTHING outside the narrow blinkered views of David Letterman/American Idol/Oprah, and you get that thousand yard look of pole-axed cattle.

138 DEZes  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:24:11pm

re: #134 quiet man

Air Force cussin is some good cussin, too!

Any branch of the military is good cussing. ;)

139 Mad Al-Jaffee  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:24:28pm

re: #133 Macker

Glad you liked it!

140 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:24:35pm

How many gaffes did Bush get a pass for?

/this is getting hard to ignore

141 albusteve  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:24:42pm

re: #111 NJDhockeyfan

Excellent!

Have another.


I like that out take stuff...cool

142 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:24:53pm

re: #136 Silvergirl

Obama's poll numbers will continue their dive and his followers will start waking up to what the man is about. What will be left for The Left will be their own bitter clinging to that warm and sunny idea of Hope and Change.

The True Believers will never wake up, they are too entrenched in what they want reality to be.

143 quiet man  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:25:07pm

It is the middle left who have the furthest to fall. They didnt care who obama was when they voted for him and now we all reap that reward.

144 lurking faith  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:25:24pm

re: #118 Panhandler

Reisling float?

No, but if I drink enough of it, it kind of wobbles.

145 Mad Al-Jaffee  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:25:27pm

re: #133 Macker

And, I have to add, "knowing is half the battle!"

146 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:25:51pm

re: #140 Killian Bundy

How many gaffes did Bush get a pass for?

/this is getting hard to ignore

When ABC starts taking notice of Our Man Obama imitating Gaffe-y Joe, then I know the Rubicon has been crossed.

147 DEZes  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:26:03pm

re: #140 Killian Bundy

How many gaffes did Bush get a pass for?

/this is getting hard to ignore

Its past hard to ignore, they actually call us names for pointing it out.

148 Gus  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:26:28pm

re: #137 FurryOldGuyJeans

You mention ANYTHING outside the narrow blinkered views of David Letterman/American Idol/Oprah, and you get that thousand yard look of pole-axed cattle.

Exactly. Typically that's "what's on TV" or the latest actor or actress.

149 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:26:57pm

re: #134 quiet man

Air Force cussin is some good cussin, too!

PFFFT! Even a Seaman Recruit can swear the skin of some Air Force wimp! ;)

150 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:27:23pm

Something Obama is not.

Youtube Video
151 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:27:44pm

A fellow lizard recommended Spaced to me the other day. It's a Brit sitcom by the guy who made Sean of the Dead. Very funny and Ive been enjoying it immensely. 2-3 good belly laughs per episode, some good drug "humour " without the American Cheech and Chong cliches.

152 DEZes  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:28:01pm

re: #150 NJDhockeyfan

Something Obama is not.


I was looking for a very long list. ;)

153 quiet man  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:28:26pm

re: #149 FurryOldGuyJeans
I got one ID number for ya, pal

F-111D

experiences like that...

154 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:28:27pm

re: #151 Killgore Trout

A fellow lizard recommended Spaced to me the other day. It's a Brit sitcom by the guy who made Sean of the Dead. Very funny and Ive been enjoying it immensely. 2-3 good belly laughs per episode, some good drug "humour " without the American Cheech and Chong cliches.

Got the DVD set of it in my library hold queue.

155 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:28:55pm

re: #126 albusteve

things happen

I love Little Feat.

Thanks!

156 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:29:56pm
Youtube Video

/he needs more handlers

157 Silvergirl  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:30:06pm

re: #151 Killgore Trout

A fellow lizard recommended Spaced to me the other day. It's a Brit sitcom by the guy who made Sean of the Dead. Very funny and Ive been enjoying it immensely. 2-3 good belly laughs per episode, some good drug "humour " without the American Cheech and Chong cliches.

Glad to hear that, KT! Some of my recommendations have gone sour for people, but I'm glad this worked for you.

158 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:30:38pm

re: #153 quiet man

I got one ID number for ya, pal

F-111D

experiences like that...

Warthog. ;)

159 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:30:38pm

re: #154 FurryOldGuyJeans

It's really good. The premise is very American; kinda Friends/ 3's Company/Sienfeld but with much better writing. He also spoofs his previous movies, lots of good geek humor.

160 Panhandler  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:31:40pm

re: #136 Silvergirl

Obama's poll numbers will continue their dive and his followers will start waking up to what the man is about. What will be left for The Left will be their own bitter clinging to that warm and sunny idea of Hope and Change.

Now that rings a bell from last summer.

161 quiet man  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:31:54pm

Warthog ...whats not to love with one of them?

162 DEZes  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:31:56pm

re: #156 Killian Bundy

/he needs more handlers

Aside from his lack of an education on all things past, he seems to think victory may hurt someones feelings.

163 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:32:08pm

re: #142 FurryOldGuyJeans

The True Believers will never wake up, they are too entrenched in what they want reality to be.

Things like- the president is an evil genius moron? Or- the president only got to where he is because of special breaks?

Because I've seen both these things said about both Bush and Obama...

Just sayin'.

164 poteen  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:32:21pm

re: #119 legalpad

Top Cat - Obama -Beretta- Visit from Secret Service

"Never mind"

165 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:32:30pm

re: #157 Silvergirl

I can't thank you enough. I haven't even made it through season one and I've already started rewatching episodes. I love the painter although he's a stock "crazy neighbour" character. The actor is really good.

166 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:33:13pm

re: #162 DEZes

Aside from his lack of an education on all things past, he seems to think victory may hurt someones feelings.

/he can't find the exit door fast enough

167 Gus  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:33:36pm

re: #162 DEZes

Aside from his lack of an education on all things past, he seems to think victory may hurt someones feelings.

You mean like victory in The Post-American World?

168 MrPaulRevere  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:33:39pm

re: #156 Killian Bundy

Bush said much the same thing. I have no issue whatsoever with what Obama said.

169 DEZes  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:33:45pm

re: #166 Killian Bundy

/he can't find the exit door fast enough

Exactly.

170 legalpad  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:33:53pm

re: #164 poteen

Top Cat - Obama -Beretta- Visit from Secret Service

"Never mind"

Oh no, not again!
/

171 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:34:45pm

Sweet bejeebus !

12:35 and I have a 7:30 TEE Party.

Place is a time warp.

Nites.

172 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:35:00pm

re: #168 MrPaulRevere

Bush said much the same thing. I have no issue whatsoever with what Obama said.

/why are we still there?

173 avanti  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:35:47pm

re: #88 Killian Bundy

Youtube Video

/cut him some slack, he's TOTUS

Obama did not say Hirohito signed on the Missouri, he said.

"I'm always worried about using the word 'victory,' because, you know, it invokes this notion of Emperor Hirohito coming down and signing a surrender to MacArthur," Obama told ABC News.
A screw up, but not a major one since in another interview with AP where he more accurately said.

"Here you've got a situation where we have and other extremists who would gladly blow up Americans, and yet we don't have a clear terminal point, there's not going to be some surrender ceremony where Emperor Hirohito signs the papers."

Legally, Emperor Hirohito did sign, but trough his representatives and to the Admiral, I think, but this link confuses me a bit.
link.

174 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:36:54pm

re: #159 Killgore Trout

It's really good. The premise is very American; kinda Friends/ 3's Company/Sienfeld but with much better writing. He also spoofs his previous movies, lots of good geek humor.

I have enjoyed quite a number of Brit comedies, Black Adder is a hoot.

Check out My Hero and Red Dwarf if quirky Brit SciFi Comedy is your style.

175 MrPaulRevere  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:37:10pm

re: #172 Killian Bundy

If I recall correctly, Bush said this would be a long struggle without a conventional surrender ceremony.

176 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:37:48pm

re: #173 avanti

Ah, the patented avanti spin machine is in full working order I see.

177 quiet man  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:38:01pm

I love Red Dwarf..and are you being served and keeping up appearances

178 DEZes  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:38:07pm

re: #176 FurryOldGuyJeans

Ah, the patented avanti spin machine is in full working order I see.

With help now.

179 Gus  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:38:43pm

re: #178 DEZes

With help now.

/But Bush...

//

180 Panhandler  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:39:05pm

re: #161 quiet man

Warthog - A10
Aardvark - F111

181 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:40:15pm

re: #173 avanti

Obama did not say Hirohito signed on the Missouri, he said.

"I'm always worried about using the word 'victory,' because, you know, it invokes this notion of Emperor Hirohito coming down and signing a surrender to MacArthur," Obama told ABC News.
A screw up, but not a major one since in another interview with AP where he more accurately said.

"Here you've got a situation where we have and other extremists who would gladly blow up Americans, and yet we don't have a clear terminal point, there's not going to be some surrender ceremony where Emperor Hirohito signs the papers."

Legally, Emperor Hirohito did sign, but trough his representatives and to the Admiral, I think, but this link confuses me a bit.
link.

Hirohito didn't get anywhere near coming down to the Missouri.

/you sticking to that story?

182 quiet man  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:40:18pm

re: #180 Panhandler

re: #161 quiet man

I know the Aardvark well

Warthog - A10
Aardvark - F111

183 DEZes  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:41:33pm

re: #181 Killian Bundy

Hirohito didn't get anywhere near coming down to the Missouri.

/you sticking to that story?

If my washer had a spin cycle like Avanti's, I could sell my dryer. ;)

184 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:41:35pm

re: #175 MrPaulRevere

If I recall correctly, Bush said this would be a long struggle without a conventional surrender ceremony.

/you think we'll still be in Afghanistan when Obama leaves office?

185 MrPaulRevere  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:41:54pm

re: #172 Killian Bundy

There are plenty of legitimate reasons to criticize Obama. Hyperventilating over nonsense isn't helpful.

186 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:42:56pm

OT but Good News:

Barbara Boxer may have trouble keeping her Senate seat

187 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:43:02pm

re: #177 quiet man

I love Red Dwarf..and are you being served and keeping up appearances

I wish they would release Up Pompeii! on DVD sometime soon.

You like Are You Being Served?, then you might like Yes, Minister and Yes, Prime Minister.

188 Panhandler  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:43:19pm

re: #182 quiet man
Sorry, got confused on which post you were referring to. I'll go back to my corner now.

189 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:43:32pm

re: #178 DEZes

With help now.

And Whom might that be?

190 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:43:44pm

re: #185 MrPaulRevere

There are plenty of legitimate reasons to criticize Obama. Hyperventilating over nonsense isn't helpful.

Nonsense?

/troops are dying and CINC says victory isn't the goal

191 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:44:07pm

re: #183 DEZes

If my washer had a spin cycle like Avanti's, I could sell my dryer. ;)

I don't think that post was avanti. I think it was his hopeychange unicorn, pressing the keys with its horn.

/

192 DEZes  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:44:37pm

re: #189 FurryOldGuyJeans

And Whom might that be?

just watch. ;)

193 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:45:08pm

re: #192 DEZes

just watch. ;)

Egads, have I been away that long?!? ;)

194 Gus  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:45:52pm

re: #185 MrPaulRevere

There are plenty of legitimate reasons to criticize Obama. Hyperventilating over nonsense isn't helpful.

I'm not hyperventilating. I just finished a cup-o-soup and coffee.

I look at this as a "teaching experience" in which we get to learn about the surrender of Japan according to the facts. ;)

195 DEZes  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:46:41pm

re: #193 FurryOldGuyJeans

Egads, have I been away that long?!? ;)

I am gonna go put in a movie, and pet the cats.
Take good care.

Have a great one Lizards.

196 Silvergirl  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:46:59pm

re: #165 Killgore Trout

I can't thank you enough. I haven't even made it through season one and I've already started rewatching episodes. I love the painter although he's a stock "crazy neighbour" character. The actor is really good.

Yeah, Brian. He's a unique stock crazy neighbor! I agree about his acting. The characters all fit together in their deranged but sometimes utterly normal ways.

197 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:47:01pm

re: #194 Gus 802

I'm not hyperventilating. I just finished a cup-o-soup and coffee.

I look at this as a "teaching experience" in which we get to learn about the surrender of Japan according to the facts. ;)

Our Man Obama's facts are what the rest of the world would call "pulled it outa his arse".

198 Gus  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:47:07pm

re: #195 DEZes

I am gonna go put in a movie, and pet the cats.
Take good care.

Have a great one Lizards.

Yeah, me too. Or something.

See you later DEZes.

Later folks.

199 Gus  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:47:40pm

re: #197 FurryOldGuyJeans

Our Man Obama's facts are what the rest of the world would call "pulled it outa his arse".

Indeed!

Later

200 austin_blue  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:47:51pm

re: #158 FurryOldGuyJeans

Warthog. ;)

Aardvark!

201 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:48:43pm

re: #195 DEZes

I am gonna go put in a movie, and pet the cats.
Take good care.

Have a great one Lizards.

Have fun getting shed upon.

202 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:48:57pm

re: #185 MrPaulRevere

There are plenty of legitimate reasons to criticize Obama. Hyperventilating over nonsense isn't helpful.

If the TOTUS is going to lecture us by using historical facts to justify his foreign policy, he should at least get the facts right.

203 MrPaulRevere  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:49:06pm

re: #190 Killian Bundy

I'm sure you'll have another talking point tomorrow. Actually, I give Obama a good grade on the war on terror, or whatever they are calling it nowadays.

204 Silvergirl  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:49:17pm

re: #177 quiet man

I love Red Dwarf..and are you being served and keeping up appearances

I've never watched Red Dwarf. I like the other two. Absolutely Fabulous was another favorite of mine.

205 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:49:58pm

re: #202 NJDhockeyfan

If the TOTUS is going to lecture us by using historical facts to justify his foreign policy, he should at least get the facts right.

Getting facts straight is so October 2008.

206 MrPaulRevere  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:50:31pm

re: #202 NJDhockeyfan

I do my hyperventilating when I cut the grass.

207 Panhandler  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:50:37pm

re: #200 austin_blue

Aardvark!


So which German fighter of WW2 was nicknamed the Aardvark (anteater)?
Many meaningless kudos but a hearty upding for the correct answer.

208 Silvergirl  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:51:50pm

re: #191 Dark_Falcon

I don't think that post was avanti. I think it was his hopeychange unicorn, pressing the keys with its horn.

/

Good image. I had to laugh at that, just imagining a unicorn at the keyboard tapping out one letter at a time with its horn.

209 austin_blue  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:51:54pm

re: #203 MrPaulRevere

I'm sure you'll have another talking point tomorrow. Actually, I give Obama a good grade on the war on terror, or whatever they are calling it nowadays.

TWAT. Total War Against Terror.

Which has always been odd. How does one fight an adjective?

210 avanti  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:53:42pm

re: #176 FurryOldGuyJeans

Ah, the patented avanti spin machine is in full working order I see.

If you do a google search, you'll find plenty that describe the surrender the same, inaccurate way. Some say to Nimitz, some say MacArthur, some mention Hirohito, some his representatives. A error certainly, but one many make since the effect was that Hirohito did in effect surrender Japan that day..

Here's one.

"The official terms of surrender are signed aboard the USS Missouri by Hirohito and Admiral Chester Nimitz. After the war, the role of the Emperor as a god was forever lost as well. "

211 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:54:32pm

re: #203 MrPaulRevere

Actually, I give Obama a good grade on the war on terror, or whatever they are calling it nowadays.

/really?

212 Panhandler  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:54:39pm

re: #209 austin_blue

TWAT. Total War Against Terror.

Which has always been odd. How does one fight an adjective?

Would you prefer TWA coffee or TWA tea?

213 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:55:22pm

re: #210 avanti

Just keep on spinning, I need the laughs.

214 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:55:44pm

re: #211 Killian Bundy

/really?

What grade do you put on appeasement?

215 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:56:23pm

re: #214 NJDhockeyfan

What grade do you put on appeasement?

That is above the man's pay grade...

///

216 MrPaulRevere  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:56:37pm

re: #211 Killian Bundy

Yeah, really. Iraq seems stable, and we are engaging the enemy in Afghanistan. Sorry, I don't do blind Obama hatred.

217 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:56:56pm

re: #214 NJDhockeyfan

What grade do you put on appeasement?

Moving forward with the surge in Afghanistan is appeasement?

218 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:57:07pm

re: #210 avanti

If you do a google search, you'll find plenty that describe the surrender the same, inaccurate way. Some say to Nimitz, some say MacArthur, some mention Hirohito, some his representatives. A error certainly, but one many make since the effect was that Hirohito did in effect surrender Japan that day..

Here's one.

"The official terms of surrender are signed aboard the USS Missouri by Hirohito and Admiral Chester Nimitz. After the war, the role of the Emperor as a god was forever lost as well. "

Youtube Video

/or you could hust watch the video and not have to guess

219 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:58:39pm

re: #216 MrPaulRevere

Yeah, really. Iraq seems stable, and we are engaging the enemy in Afghanistan. Sorry, I don't do blind Obama hatred.

/again, do you believe we'll be in Afghanistan when Obama leaves office?

220 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:59:02pm

Photo Album - President Bush delivers farewell speech in Washington:

His Last Moments in Office

221 MrPaulRevere  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:59:57pm

re: #219 Killian Bundy

When I'm in the mood to be interrogated you'll be the first to know.

222 Panhandler  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:59:59pm

re: #218 Killian Bundy

Hirohito is third from the right - correct?

223 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:00:20pm

re: #217 Sharmuta

Moving forward with the surge in Afghanistan is appeasement?

/the ground commanders want tens of thousands more troops

224 jorline  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:00:46pm

Ten minute to kill?

Thick as a Brick

Youtube Video
225 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:01:17pm

re: #221 MrPaulRevere

When I'm in the mood to be interrogated you'll be the first to know.

Cut and Run. Good debate/discussion tactic there.

226 Macker  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:01:29pm

re: #186 Dark_Falcon

OT but Good News:

Barbara Boxer may have trouble keeping her Senate seat

Is Carly Fiorina a Democrat or Republican?

227 avanti  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:01:43pm

re: #213 FurryOldGuyJeans

Just keep on spinning, I need the laughs.

I'm done, proceed with surrendergate if you like, it take the attention off the important issues..

228 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:01:50pm

re: #222 Panhandler

Hirohito is third from the right - correct?

/um, no

229 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:01:58pm

re: #224 jorline

Ten minute to kill?

Thick as a Brick

Awesome!

I saw them in Boulder with The Who.

230 lurking faith  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:02:22pm

re: #187 FurryOldGuyJeans

I'm heartily sick of Are You Being Served?, which apparently is on every PBS station in the country, multiple times daily on some, until the end of time.

But I haven't seen an episode of Yes, Minister in over ten years. Too intelligent a show, I suppose.

Oh, well. At least they show some other good Britcoms here (Fawlty Towers, Vicar of Dibley, Waiting for God, etc.).

231 Panhandler  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:03:06pm

re: #226 Macker

Is Carly Fiorina a Democrat or Republican?

If Boxer screws up any more, Fiorina could be a Replicant and still win.

232 austin_blue  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:03:21pm

re: #224 jorline

Ten minute to kill?

Thick as a Brick


[Video]

Ah, a Jethro Tull freak. Back atcha, my man. I am so there.

233 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:03:41pm

re: #230 lurking faith

I'm heartily sick of Are You Being Served?, which apparently is on every PBS station in the country, multiple times daily on some, until the end of time.

But I haven't seen an episode of Yes, Minister in over ten years. Too intelligent a show, I suppose.

Oh, well. At least they show some other good Britcoms here (Fawlty Towers, Vicar of Dibley, Waiting for God, etc.).

Not here in my slice of reality in the Great Pacific NorthWet. But then I don't watch a lot of TV not provided by DVD.

234 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:05:05pm

re: #227 avanti

I'm done, proceed with surrendergate if you like, it take the attention off the important issues..

You surrender too easily. I just want to feel the breeze from all the spinning you do.

235 jorline  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:05:50pm

re: #232 austin_blue

Ah, a Jethro Tull freak. Back atcha, my man. I am so there.

My favorite Tull

Youtube Video
236 Gella  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:06:01pm

read and seen Watchmen, bought DVD, haven't seen it yet
book is awesome, movie was great, i hope extended version has all missing stuff :) i also bought Watchmen: Tales of the Black Freighter & Under the Hood

237 swamprat  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:06:21pm

re: #210 avanti

That is a red herring. The real meat is that when Bush could not give a specific date for withdrawal, the left respun those words to mean "unending war". Now Obama declares the same thing and the outcry is

inaudible
238 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:06:53pm

re: #217 Sharmuta

Moving forward with the surge in Afghanistan is appeasement?

No. Apologizing to our enemies around the world and letting Iran have the bomb come to mind. If I thought about it I could list more but it's 1:05 and I'm tired.

Time to hit the sack. Nite all.

239 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:07:13pm

Japanese Instrument of Surrender

/Hirohito ain't there

240 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:07:31pm

re: #226 Macker

Is Carly Fiorina a Democrat or Republican?

She worked for John McCain and the article doesn't say primary challenge so I would assume she's a Republican. That said, she's probably not socially conservative, but she has a business background, which bodes well on economic matters. Also, if both she and McCain are elected next year, she'd have decent mentor on Capitol Hill for her first term.

241 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:07:54pm

re: #239 Killian Bundy

Japanese Instrument of Surrender

/Hirohito ain't there

Shhh! Facts will only confuse and infuriate some people.

242 MrPaulRevere  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:08:24pm

re: #225 FurryOldGuyJeans

I don't respond to demands to answer questions, its a bullying tactic and antithetical to a real debate.

243 swamprat  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:08:47pm

re: #223 Killian Bundy

/the ground commanders want tens of thousands more troops

And the outrage against the "surge" is

inaudible
244 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:09:11pm

re: #223 Killian Bundy

/the ground commanders want tens of thousands more troops

Linky?

245 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:10:01pm

re: #237 swamprat

Avanti is right. Bush said it would be a long, untraditional war.

246 austin_blue  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:10:02pm

re: #235 jorline

My favorite Tull


[Video]

Yes. Charlie is Satan and the result is chaos.

247 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:10:11pm

re: #242 MrPaulRevere

I don't respond to demands to answer questions, its a bullying tactic and antithetical to a real debate.

Yup, cherry picking what you want to answer is just sooo Presidential.

248 jorline  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:10:14pm

It's a freaky music Saturday night.

One of my favorite Beatles remix.

Youtube Video
249 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:10:52pm

re: #239 Killian Bundy

Japanese Instrument of Surrender

/Hirohito ain't there

From your link.

The ceremony aboard the deck of the Missouri lasted twenty-three minutes and was broadcast throughout the world. The instrument was first signed by the Japanese foreign minister Mamoru Shigemitsu "By Command and on behalf of the Emperor of Japan and the Japanese Government" (9:04 a.m.).[1] Then General Yoshijiro Umezu, Chief of the Army General Staff, "By Command and on behalf of the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters" signed (9:06 a.m.).[2] Afterwards, U.S. General of the Army Douglas MacArthur, Commander in the Southwest Pacific and Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers, also signed (9:08 a.m.).[1] As witnesses, U.S. Lieutenant General Jonathan Mayhew Wainwright IV, who had surrendered the Philippines, and British Lieutenant General Arthur Percival, who had surrendered Singapore, received two of the six pens they used to sign the instrument. Another pen went to the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, and one to his aide. All of the pens used by MacArthur were black, except the last which was plum colored and went to his wife. A replica of it, along with copies of the instrument of surrender, is in a case on the Missouri by the plaque marking the signing spot.

After MacArthur's signature as Supreme Commander, the following representatives signed the instrument of surrender on behalf of each of the Allied Powers:

* Fleet Admiral Chester Nimitz for the United States (9:12 a.m.).[3]
* General Hsu Yung-Ch'ang for the Republic of China (9:13 a.m.).[4]
* Admiral Sir Bruce Fraser for the United Kingdom (9:14 a.m.).[5]
* Lieutenant General Kuzma Derevyanko for the Soviet Union (9:16 a.m.).[6]
* General Sir Thomas Blamey for Australia (9:17 a.m.).[7]
* Colonel Lawrence Moore Cosgrave for Canada (9:18 a.m.).[8]
* Général d'Armée Philippe Leclerc de Hautecloque for France (9:20 a.m.).[9]
* Luitenant-Admiraal C.E.L. Helfrich for the Netherlands (9:21 a.m.).[10]
* Air Vice-Marshal Leonard M. Isitt for New Zealand (9:22 a.m.).[11]

On September 6, Colonel Bernard Theilen brought the document and an imperial rescript to Washington, D.C., and presented them to President Harry Truman in a formal White House ceremony the following day. The documents were then exhibited at the National Archives.


Nope, not there.

250 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:11:11pm

re: #238 NJDhockeyfan

No. Apologizing to our enemies around the world and letting Iran have the bomb come to mind. If I thought about it I could list more but it's 1:05 and I'm tired.

Time to hit the sack. Nite all.

Bush appeased on Iran too then. Have a good night.

251 swamprat  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:12:30pm

re: #245 Sharmuta

Avanti is right. Bush said it would be a long, untraditional war.

Yes he did, and he caught hell for it.

252 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:12:33pm

re: #250 Sharmuta

Bush appeased on Iran too then. Have a good night.

You are right about that but we weren't talking about Bush that I know of.

253 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:13:00pm

re: #235 jorline

My favorite Tull


Very good stuff. My mother is a Jethro Tull fan and I developed an appreciation for him from her.

255 lurking faith  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:13:20pm

re: #233 FurryOldGuyJeans

Not here in my slice of reality in the Great Pacific NorthWet. But then I don't watch a lot of TV not provided by DVD.

Huh.
I guess that disproves my theory, then.

This calls for more riesling!

256 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:14:05pm

re: #252 NJDhockeyfan

You are right about that but we weren't talking about Bush that I know of.

If we're going to say the President is an appeaser because Iran's weapons program is still up and running, that buck can get passed backwards too.

257 MrPaulRevere  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:16:35pm

Speaking of non-stories, the 'Bush almost sent troops to Buffalo' was nonsense as well.

258 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:18:32pm

re: #256 Sharmuta

If we're going to say the President is an appeaser because Iran's weapons program is still up and running, that buck can get passed backwards too.

But why bring Bush into this? He is not the President. George Bush took the fight to the Islamic rat bastards when he was in charge. Obama doesn't seem to have the same drive to exterminate them. Yes he's adding troops to Afghanistan but is that all he's got?

259 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:19:23pm

re: #257 MrPaulRevere

Speaking of non-stories, the 'Bush almost sent troops to Buffalo' was nonsense as well.

It's not unheard of for discussions on hypothetical situations to get blown out of proportion. I agree it's nonsense.

260 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:19:32pm

re: #257 MrPaulRevere

Speaking of non-stories, the 'Bush almost sent troops to Buffalo' was nonsense as well.

It's just a feeble attempt to distract from a bad week at the WH.

261 The Left  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:20:05pm

re: #254 Killian Bundy

/10,000 More Troops for Afghanistan? The Pentagon Request Isn't Really New

They won't get the extra ten thousand, but they are getting 17,000 now and another 4,000 in mid august.

Btw, the troop presence there at the end of this year will be 68,000-- double what it was at the end of 2008.

So I don't see the point of complaining that Obama isn't sending an extra 10K, when he'll have doubled the troop presence by the end of the year.

link from July 1st

262 Macker  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:20:17pm

re: #256 Sharmuta

If we're going to say the President is an appeaser because Iran's weapons program is still up and running, that buck can get passed backwards too.

Lord knows, diplomacy has been tried countless times...through quite a few Presidents IIRC...to get Iran to stop. It is clear they will not.
It is my hope that the Iranian People will rise up against the Mullahs...and soon. Time is running out.

263 austin_blue  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:20:38pm

re: #250 Sharmuta

Bush appeased on Iran too then. Have a good night.

Iran is the enigma wrapped in a mystery inside a riddle. The dichotomy between the government and the governed is absolutely going to explode in the next few years. Hopefully, they will have not developed nukes before the inevitable change occurs (my wishful thinking, obviously). After seeing those kids on the streets after the last bastardized election, I would hate to think that a strike on Tehran would be in our best interest. They don't deserve to be slaughtered by us.

264 swamprat  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:22:36pm

When Obama says the very same things that caused Bush inordinate grief, nobody seems to raise an eyebrow.

This is called hypocrisy.

There is no other way to spin it.
Obama is absolutely correct, and so was Bush.

265 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:24:15pm

re: #258 NJDhockeyfan

But why bring Bush into this? He is not the President. George Bush took the fight to the Islamic rat bastards when he was in charge. Obama doesn't seem to have the same drive to exterminate them. Yes he's adding troops to Afghanistan but is that all he's got?

But that is your perception of Obama vs. reality. The surge in Afghanistan is underway. That doesn't look weak to me. Am I concerned about the rest of our foreign policy? You bet your sweet bippy. But I agree with PaulRevere- as far as the WoT is going, he's doing fine right now.

267 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:25:04pm

re: #261 iceweasel

So I don't see the point of complaining that Obama isn't sending an extra 10K, when he'll have doubled the troop presence by the end of the year.

/it's still half what the ground commanders requested, then again TOTUS did the happy dance on the Raptor and refuses to upgrade our nuclear warhead stockpile

268 MrPaulRevere  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:26:29pm

re: #258 NJDhockeyfan

"Obama doesn't seem to have the same drive to exterminate them." He supported a surge in Afghanistan, to his credit. Why can't we give credit where is due? I support our troops in the field, period.

269 The Left  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:26:43pm

re: #264 swamprat

When Obama says the very same things that caused Bush inordinate grief, nobody seems to raise an eyebrow.

This is called hypocrisy.

There is no other way to spin it.
Obama is absolutely correct, and so was Bush.

Some people on the left have no problems when Obama implements or continues certain Bush policies, even when they hated Bush for those policies.

Similarly, some on the right hate Obama for things which they'd give Bush a pass on-- or refuse to give Obama credit for decisions which they would find good, if someone else had made them.

BDS and ODS are mirrorimages of each other. Neither is good, and this isn't just hypocrisy--it's destroying our discourse.

270 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:27:52pm

re: #261 iceweasel

They won't get the extra ten thousand, but they are getting 17,000 now and another 4,000 in mid august.

Btw, the troop presence there at the end of this year will be 68,000-- double what it was at the end of 2008.

So I don't see the point of complaining that Obama isn't sending an extra 10K, when he'll have doubled the troop presence by the end of the year.

link from July 1st

The request was first made last summer. Seems Obama approved Bush era troop requests.

271 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:28:33pm

re: #265 Sharmuta

But that is your perception of Obama vs. reality. The surge in Afghanistan is underway. That doesn't look weak to me. Am I concerned about the rest of our foreign policy? You bet your sweet bippy. But I agree with PaulRevere- as far as the WoT is going, he's doing fine right now.

I do not feel safer since Obama took charge. He wants to bring Gitmo terrorists on to US soil for one thing and has our intelligence agencies worried that they may be prosecuted for doing their job. There is much more to the WOT than adding extra troops in Afghanistan.

272 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:29:14pm

re: #270 Sharmuta

The request was first made last summer. Seems Obama approved Bush era troop requests.

/and it's still way short of what the ground commanders are asking for

273 The Left  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:29:21pm

re: #267 Killian Bundy

/it's still half what the ground commanders requested, then again TOTUS did the happy dance on the Raptor and refuses to upgrade our nuclear warhead stockpile

It's not half. They'd requested 30K; they're getting 21K within the next month. It's possible that Obama will still deploy some more by the end of the year, but right now he isn't.

And again, we'll still have double the troops there by the end of the year than we did at the end of 2008, because of the troops he already deployed in Feb.

274 swamprat  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:31:01pm

re: #269 iceweasel


Iceweasel, when I find myself agreeing so vehemently with you, one of us has to be drunk.

275 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:31:09pm

re: #271 NJDhockeyfan

He wants to bring Gitmo terrorists on to US soil

That was nixed.

276 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:31:24pm

re: #273 iceweasel

It's not half. They'd requested 30K; they're getting 21K within the next month. It's possible that Obama will still deploy some more by the end of the year, but right now he isn't.

And again, we'll still have double the troops there by the end of the year than we did at the end of 2008, because of the troops he already deployed in Feb.

Anything's possible.

/we need to get serious or get out

277 The Left  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:32:40pm

re: #274 swamprat

Iceweasel, when I find myself agreeing so vehemently with you, one of us has to be drunk.

hee hee. Dammit, I know it's not me. This time. Give me a couple of hours and maybe I will be. :)

278 MrPaulRevere  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:33:07pm

"Similarly, some on the right hate Obama for things which they'd give Bush a pass on-- or refuse to give Obama credit for decisions which they would find good, if someone else had made them." Good comment! I was taught to support the boys (and girls) in the trenches, regardless of the political affiliation of the President.

279 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:33:07pm

re: #275 Sharmuta

That was nixed.

/really, where are they going to end up?

280 Bloodnok  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:34:59pm

re: #279 Killian Bundy

/really, where are they going to end up?

Maybe outside the US. Or at Gitmo.

/Anything's possible

281 Macker  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:35:44pm

re: #269 iceweasel

BDS and ODS are mirrorimages of each other. Neither is good, and this isn't just hypocrisy--it's destroying our discourse.

With all due respect, this is false. BDS stems directly from the 2000 Election. ODS sufferers go after БХО because of the color of his skin and won't give him credit when he does something right.
I don't give БХО credit for the surge in Afghanistan; it's a half-assed lip service to the Men and Women in Uniform.

282 The Left  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:35:47pm

re: #276 Killian Bundy

Anything's possible.

/we need to get serious or get out

By 'possible' I mean that Obama has not said he will not send more troops this year; he's said that right now he doesn't plan to.

And doubling our troop level there sounds pretty serious. He can hardly be accused of neglecting it.

283 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:36:32pm

re: #271 NJDhockeyfan

and has our intelligence agencies worried that they may be prosecuted for doing their job.

Again-that's not happening. Panetta said they were not going to prosecute waterboarding.

284 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:36:45pm

re: #275 Sharmuta

That was nixed.

Not so fast.

Supermax beds being cleared for Gitmo detainees; Sen. Inhofe asks ‘what kind of threat does this present to the American population?’

July 23, 2009

Since June 30, President Barack Obama has cleared two dozen beds at Supermax for Gitmo detainees and today Senate Democrats will attempt to block a vote on Senator Jim Inhofe’s amendment [S.Amdt.1559] to the Defense Authorization bill (S.1390) for FY 2010. The amendment would prohibit the transfer of detainees from Guantanamo to any facility in the United States. (A final vote on the Defense authorization may come as early as this evening.) In addition, Senator Inhofe is also sponsoring the ‘Guantanamo Bay Detention Facility Safe Closure Act of 2009′ (S.370). We join Sen. Inhofe in asking you to call your Senators [[no phone numbers allowed]] today and demand that they go on record, to vote ‘yea’ or ‘nay’ to keep terrorists out of America.

Previously, there was always a long waiting list to move infamous criminals, prisoners who had repeatedly assaulted guards or fellow prisoners, and high-security prisoners in grave danger in general population into Supermax. When President Obama took office there was one free bed. On June 30, 2009, Supermax inmate Eric Rudolph wrote Fox News saying it is already at capacity, “So even if they decide to move the detainees here I do not know where they would put them.”

9/11 Families for a Safe & Strong America asked Senator Inhofe for his reaction to the suddenly available space at Supermax:

“President Obama’s obsession with transferring terrorists out of Guantanamo Bay, Cuba (GITMO) to the United States is dangerous on a number of levels. Housing terrorist detainees in Supermax facilities in the United States creates terrorist targets here at home and provides an opportunity for the spread of their extreme ideology among the rest of the prison population. Even when 9/11 conspirator Zacarias Moussaoui was imprisoned and tried in Alexandria, Virginia, officials had to clear out an entire wing of the prison to accommodate him. I am very disturbed at mere suggestion that vacancies are being created in Supermax prisons to make way for the transfer of GITMO detainees. If this is the case, which highly dangerous criminals are being moved, where are they being moved to, and what kind of threat does this present to the American population?” – U.S. Sen. Jim Inhofe

285 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:39:34pm

re: #282 iceweasel

By 'possible' I mean that Obama has not said he will not send more troops this year; he's said that right now he doesn't plan to.

And doubling our troop level there sounds pretty serious. He can hardly be accused of neglecting it.

/he's looking for the exit door

286 Macker  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:40:25pm

re: #284 NJDhockeyfan

The ONLY way I would allow Terrorists in the US Supermax is in body bags, ready to be buried with their asses facing Mecca.

287 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:40:29pm

re: #284 NJDhockeyfan

What is Tim Sumner's source on this?

288 Macker  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:41:04pm

re: #285 Killian Bundy

Careful, that tag could carry a double entendre...

289 MrPaulRevere  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:41:15pm

So, when we had a Republican President, Iraq was an unwinnable mistake according to Democrats. Now the Republicans are arguing that Afghanistan is an unwinnable mistake since we have a Democrat President. And people wonder why the public tunes out partisan politics.

290 The Left  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:41:17pm

re: #284 NJDhockeyfan

I'm not inclined to take Inhofe's criticisms very seriously-- let alone Eric Rudolph's, of all people.

I'm not especially worried about housing them at the SuperMax. If there's one thing the US is excellent at, it's building and maintaining prisons. No one has ever escaped from a SuperMax.

On the other hand, I am disturbed about Obama's plans for indefinite detention.

291 NY Nana  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:41:28pm

It has been a busy day, and I do not know where the time went. There is a search party looking for it now. If anyone should see it sneaking around, please send it to me.

I am off to sleep!

G'nite, Lizards! Sweet dreams!

292 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:41:30pm

re: #280 Bloodnok

Maybe outside the US. Or at Gitmo.

/Anything's possible

/kind of like the current situation without the artificial deadline, eh?

293 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:43:04pm

re: #287 Sharmuta

What is Tim Sumner's source on this?

Here is an update from the 24th..

Senate Democrats took the coward’s way out last night; they blocked a vote that would have prevented the transfer of Guantanamo detainees into America’s prisons.

Here is the video.

Youtube Video
294 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:43:23pm

re: #288 Macker

Careful, that tag could carry a double entendre...

We're talking about Barack Obama, not Barney Frank. :D

295 austin_blue  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:44:15pm

re: #271 NJDhockeyfan

I do not feel safer since Obama took charge. He wants to bring Gitmo terrorists on to US soil for one thing and has our intelligence agencies worried that they may be prosecuted for doing their job. There is much more to the WOT than adding extra troops in Afghanistan.

We already have numerous terrorists in high level lock-up in the US. Various communities have said "send them to us" in recent months. There are around 220 people left in Guantanamo. There dispensation is the question.

296 lurking faith  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:44:48pm

re: #281 Macker

With all due respect, this is false. BDS stems directly from the 2000 Election. ODS sufferers go after БХО because of the color of his skin and won't give him credit when he does something right.
I don't give БХО credit for the surge in Afghanistan; it's a half-assed lip service to the Men and Women in Uniform.

I really don't think all ODS sufferers hate him for his color. He's been mentored by Marxists, terrorists, and racists, came to power through the Chicago machine, sneers at average Americans and the brave people who keep him safe, and wants to tear apart our way of life. I'm not surprised some people have reacted with a spot of derangement.

297 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:45:17pm

re: #289 MrPaulRevere

Now the Republicans are arguing that Afghanistan is an unwinnable mistake since we have a Democrat President.

Who's arguing that?

/ground truth is what it is

298 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:45:30pm

re: #289 MrPaulRevere

So, when we had a Republican President, Iraq was an unwinnable mistake according to Democrats. Now the Republicans are arguing that Afghanistan is an unwinnable mistake since we have a Democrat President. And people wonder why the public tunes out partisan politics.

I don't think we can't win the war, and neither do most Republicans. What we question is Obama's willingness to do what is needed to crush our enemies.

299 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:47:12pm

re: #295 austin_blue

We already have numerous terrorists in high level lock-up in the US. Various communities have said "send them to us" in recent months. There are around 220 people left in Guantanamo. There dispensation is the question.

The minute they step on to US soil they get the same rights as us, correct? (I'm no lawyer but that is what I understand.) If so there is a chance they could go to trial, be found 'not guilty', and be released on to our streets.

300 lurking faith  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:47:47pm

re: #283 Sharmuta

Again-that's not happening. Panetta said they were not going to prosecute waterboarding.

Have they come out and stated they would not attempt to prosecute those who provided legal advice?

I admit I've been missing a lot of news this summer - too much studying - but last I heard they were still thinking about going after the lawyers and any other advisors they could think of.

301 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:49:11pm

re: #295 austin_blue

There are around 220 people left in Guantanamo. There dispensation is the question.

More like 250, very nasty human beings.

/and?

302 swamprat  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:49:27pm

re: #296 lurking faith

And now he finds himself President. He prays more and is losing sleep. I imagine some of the intelligence briefings he had were real eye openers. Bush had nary a bad word to say about the man. He has been in his shoes, and knows the pressure.

303 Macker  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:51:04pm

re: #299 NJDhockeyfan

The minute they step on to US soil they get the same rights as us, correct? (I'm no lawyer but that is what I understand.) If so there is a chance they could go to trial, be found 'not guilty', and be released on to our streets.

Allow me to reprint an excerpt from a short story I wrote about a few years back:

The courtroom erupted. Osama looked up, totally taken aback but remained calm, as did his defense team and the prosecution. It took nearly an eternal five minutes to restore order to the court, involving repeated forceful raps of the gavel. As it came, the courtroom and by extension the world waited with baited breath.
The judge began again. “By the authority granted to me by this special law, I hereby set aside the death sentence and set free the defendant. No one in this courtroom, and no one in this building is to hinder or assist in the exit of Mister bin Laden from this building. Also, no one is to exit from this building until I give permission to do so.” As the judge rendered his decision, the bailiff walked over to the defense table and began to unlock bin Laden’s cuffs and shackles.
“Mister bin Laden, you are free to go. This court is adjourned.” He slammed down the gavel for the last time. It was followed by a silence felt around the world. Osama bin Laden rose from his chair a free man. He slowly walked out of the courtroom…only to find the corridors outside totally deserted and tranquil.
He could not believe what he was seeing. His pace quickened as he approached the main security checkpoints used for inspecting visitors and workers entering the courthouse. No one manned the posts and the doors to freedom and fresh air were just ahead.
He reached them and opened a door. Outside he looked up, saw the sunny skies, and found a lone car waiting at the base of the fifty steps to take him to Queens and John F. Kennedy International Airport. Again he found total desertion and tranquility.
He shouted at the top of his lungs in Arabic, “God is Great!” which echoed among the tall buildings of the city; he commenced running down the steps toward the waiting limousine. On the twenty-sixth step, a noise emanated from the streets so quickly that by the time he reached the thirty-seventh step, it was deafening. Osama witnessed a massive throng of New Yorkers bypassing the waiting limo and surrounding him.
It was at this moment that Osama bin Laden knew the finality of his life was at hand. He realized the softhearted mercy of the complacent American people was a fallacy. His eyes widened with terror as the crowd surged forward and engulfed him in their midst.
And Osama bin Laden got it in THE END!!

304 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:51:58pm

re: #293 NJDhockeyfan

I didn't ask for an update. What is his source? When does he think this is happening? Congress blocked money for transferring them.

305 The Left  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:53:41pm

re: #299 NJDhockeyfan

The minute they step on to US soil they get the same rights as us, correct? (I'm no lawyer but that is what I understand.) If so there is a chance they could go to trial, be found 'not guilty', and be released on to our streets.

No, absolutely not. Obama is contemplating a three-tiered system that would involve 1) real trials in real courts for some, 2) military trials for others, and 3) indefinite detention without ever having a trial for others.

The question of where they are isn't what will determine the kind of trial they have; basically that's being determined by how hard or easy it is to convict them. For people in the first category, few things are easier than obtaining a conviction in federal court on a charge of material aid to terrorists.

306 austin_blue  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:53:53pm

re: #298 Dark_Falcon

I don't think we can't win the war, and neither do most Republicans. What we question is Obama's willingness to do what is needed to crush our enemies.

Nice double negative!!

And what, specifically, would that entail? To win the war? Keep in mind, I am totally with the surge in A-stan. I just am a military guy who has taken a look at terrain and history. Brutal.

307 MrPaulRevere  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:54:22pm

re: #298 Dark_Falcon

To be fair, not all Republicans are opposed to the Afghan campaign. But there is a talking point/meme out there, put forth by the Paul/Buchanan wing of the GOP that we should withdraw and pull up the draw bridge. This is a formula for disaster.

308 Panhandler  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:54:46pm

re: #303 Macker
Ah yes, "An occurance at Owl Creek Bridge" - Things are going great until the end of the fall.

309 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:55:34pm

re: #299 NJDhockeyfan

The minute they step on to US soil they get the same rights as us, correct?

/trust me, the ACLU et al will be tripping over themselves to argue that exact point in every legal forum they can find

310 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:55:42pm

Good evening, Lizards!
How is everyone?

311 Macker  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:56:45pm

re: #308 Panhandler

Ah yes, "An occurance at Owl Creek Bridge" - Things are going great until the end of the fall.

Interesting, indeed...

312 The Left  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:57:24pm

re: #300 lurking faith

Have they come out and stated they would not attempt to prosecute those who provided legal advice?

I admit I've been missing a lot of news this summer - too much studying - but last I heard they were still thinking about going after the lawyers and any other advisors they could think of.

That's right. Currently what Holder is contemplating is prosecuting some of the low level lawyers who worked for Yoo. It's also possible that some interrogators will be prosecuted-- not for torture or waterboarding, but for slightly exceeding the guidelines laid out for how to waterboard-- too much water, too little time in between, rooms slightly colder, etc.

But they won't be going after any of the Bush admin, or people like Yoo.

Essentially what we would see (assuming we see any prosecutions at all) is a repeat of Abu G: low level functionaries will take the fall while the people who instituted these practices will never be mentioned.

313 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:59:14pm

re: #304 Sharmuta

I didn't ask for an update. What is his source? When does he think this is happening? Congress blocked money for transferring them.

I have no idea but by reading the blog he seems to be getting updates by email from Sen. Inhofe. I have no reason to doubt the story. Obama had plans to bring some of them to Virginia but canceled that idea when word leaked about it.

314 swamprat  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:59:52pm

re: #306 austin_blue
Such posts are not displeasing to me. A double negative is only incorrect when it is not meant to convey a positive. This literary technique was not unpopular many years ago.

315 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:00:03pm

re: #313 NJDhockeyfan

Inhofe has zero credibility in my book, and I'm sure I'm not alone.

316 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:00:31pm

re: #312 iceweasel

That's right. Currently what Holder is contemplating is prosecuting some of the low level lawyers who worked for Yoo. It's also possible that some interrogators will be prosecuted-- not for torture or waterboarding, but for slightly exceeding the guidelines laid out for how to waterboard-- too much water, too little time in between, rooms slightly colder, etc.

/gee, and the CIA is still supposed to do their job

317 lurking faith  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:00:51pm

re: #302 swamprat

I'm sure all of that's true, and I do think he's trying to do his best, or what he thinks is best, to keep us safe.

I also see ample evidence that he wants to redistribute the nation's wealth regardless of the overall effect on the economy and the people he claims to be helping, has reached in to private business and rewritten legal contracts to benefit his political supporters, fully intends to make energy of all kinds ruinously expensive, and is trying to wreck the portions of US healthcare that actually work.

All for our own good, mind you.

318 Flyers1974  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:01:12pm

re: #312 iceweasel

Good evening everyone, hello IW.

319 austin_blue  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:01:58pm

re: #299 NJDhockeyfan

The minute they step on to US soil they get the same rights as us, correct? (I'm no lawyer but that is what I understand.) If so there is a chance they could go to trial, be found 'not guilty', and be released on to our streets.

You mean the same rights that are guaranteed by the Constitution? The basis on which this country exists? Look, they are either guilty or not guilty of the crimes of which they are accused. That's the deal. If we can prosecute them, we should. If we can't, we should release them to their home countries where thy can be brutalized. Out of our bailiwick.

320 The Left  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:03:08pm

re: #318 Flyers1974

Good evening everyone, hello IW.

hey flyers! what's up?

321 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:04:46pm

re: #315 Sharmuta

Inhofe has zero credibility in my book, and I'm sure I'm not alone.


OK, now it's 2:00 and it's all your fault. ;)

G'nite all!

322 swamprat  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:05:12pm

re: #317 lurking faith

"All for our own good"
I have fond hope that he will be affected by the realities of economics and life and come to understand that his original plans don't work in real life. I hope he will. I think he is begining to find out.

323 Panhandler  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:05:18pm

re: #311 Macker
Ambrose Bierce wrote it, Twilight Zone did an adaptation in 1964 ,this is the final part.

324 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:05:28pm

re: #319 austin_blue

If we can't, we should release them to their home countries where thy can be brutalized. Out of our bailiwick.

And when their home countries are smart enough not to take them?

/closing Gitmo was first a Bush policy, although he didn't issue a foolish ultimatum

325 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:05:43pm

re: #321 NJDhockeyfan

Good night. :)

326 Soona'  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:07:50pm

re: #296 lurking faith

I really don't think all ODS sufferers hate him for his color. He's been mentored by Marxists, terrorists, and racists, came to power through the Chicago machine, sneers at average Americans and the brave p who keep him safe, and wants to tear apart our way of life. I'm not surprised some people have reacted with a spot of derangement.

I support the zero. I just don't support his marxist/alinsky attitude toward America, nor his economics, his foreign policy, his power hungry/union thug administrative team or his power drunk, kiss ass congressional leadership.

327 lurking faith  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:07:59pm

re: #312 iceweasel

You know, I was with you on that post right up until you suggested that Abu Ghraib was low level people taking the fall for higher-ups who instituted the policies.

It wasn't policy. It was an idiot NCO and a few pals following him. (They should have been trained and supervised better, yes. But this is not at all the same thing as saying the abuse was policy.)

328 Flyers1974  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:08:30pm

re: #320 iceweasel

Just got back from my first time white water rafting up in PA. What's everyone talking about tonight?

329 Throbert McGee  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:09:05pm

Q. Why exactly did they cut the giant genetically-engineered killer squid from the graphic novel?

A. Because the JEW-CONTROLLED HOLLYWOOD MACHINE conspires to keep hard-workin', soft-bodied cephalopods from ever gettin' a break...

/it's a trayf thing, you wouldn't understand

330 The Left  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:09:16pm

re: #324 Killian Bundy

And when their home countries are smart enough not to take them?

/closing Gitmo was first a Bush policy, although he didn't issue a foolish ultimatum

Bush is one of the reasons why closing Gitmo is such a nightmare. Why do you think these guys have been held for years without Bush bringing them to trial?

It's because the evidence collection, and the reasons why some of these guys were detained in the first place, was so shoddy. That's one reason why Obama is contemplating indefinite detention for some of them now. (Which I do not support either.)

331 swamprat  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:11:58pm

re: #326 Soona'

But other than that, he's "aces" with you!

332 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:11:59pm

re: #324 Killian Bundy

And when their home countries are smart enough not to take them?

/closing Gitmo was first a Bush policy, although he didn't issue a foolish ultimatum

I'm not sure where the line is here. Most my preferred solutions for these terrorist issues involve killing as an integral part of them. Given the forum rules, I'm reluctant to say something that might get me banned.

333 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:12:12pm

re: #330 iceweasel

Bush is one of the reasons why closing Gitmo is such a nightmare. Why do you think these guys have been held for years without Bush bringing them to trial?

It's because the evidence collection, and the reasons why some of these guys were detained in the first place, was so shoddy. That's one reason why Obama is contemplating indefinite detention for some of them now. (Which I do not support either.)

/gee, I guess you don't read Miranda rights or call in CSI to collect evidence, WHEN YOU'RE IN THE MIDDLE OF FIGHTING A WAR!

334 Soona'  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:13:03pm

re: #307 MrPaulRevere

To be fair, not all Republicans are opposed to the Afghan campaign. But there is a talking point/meme out there, put forth by the Paul/Buchanan wing of the GOP that we should withdraw and pull up the draw bridge. This is a formula for disaster.

Has anyone noticed that even though we have more troops in Afghanistan and plan to send more that we here very very little from the MFMSM about what's actually going on there. My bet is that before the zero leaves office, Pakistan will be our enemy.

335 ArchangelMichael  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:13:39pm

re: #307 MrPaulRevere

To be fair, not all Republicans are opposed to the Afghan campaign. But there is a talking point/meme out there, put forth by the Paul/Buchanan wing of the GOP that we should withdraw and pull up the draw bridge. This is a formula for disaster.

The Luap Nor/Pukecannon wing has always said this. They have always wanted us to pull all our forces out of everywhere and pull up the drawbridge and lower to portcullis on Fortress America. When Bush was president they were ignored and ridiculed. Now they are not thanks to ODS and Paulian entryism.

336 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:13:53pm

re: #332 Dark_Falcon

I agree with your sentiments & statements.

337 lurking faith  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:14:59pm

re: #326 Soona'

Suddenly, I'm reminded of Possum Lodge and the Man's Prayer:
"I'm a man, but I can change, if I have to, I guess."

338 The Left  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:15:04pm

re: #328 Flyers1974

Just got back from my first time white water rafting up in PA. What's everyone talking about tonight?

Cool. I've been white water rafting only once, out West. How was it?

We're talking about all the usual topics. Refighting old battles too. :)

339 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:15:07pm

re: #335 ArchangelMichael

The Luap Nor/Pukecannon wing has always said this. They have always wanted us to pull all our forces out of everywhere and pull up the drawbridge and lower to portcullis on Fortress America. When Bush was president they were ignored and ridiculed. Now they are not thanks to ODS and Paulian entryism.

Paulian entryism reminds of Frankian entryism.

/rimshot rimjob

340 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:15:22pm

re: #335 ArchangelMichael

I read your postings with much pleasure!
Thank you!

341 swamprat  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:16:21pm

re: #334 Soona'

Has anyone noticed that even though we have more troops in Afghanistan and plan to send more that we here very very little from the MFMSM about what's actually going on there. My bet is that before the zero leaves office, Pakistan will be our enemy.


Not at all. We're going to biuld schools for them, don' cha know!


/from the Obama debates where he says they won't mind invasion, 'cause we'll build them schools. You can't make this up. Hell, maybe it will work!

342 Syrah  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:18:11pm

I did not like the Watchmen.

Visually, it was an amazing experience. The acting was done well.

The characters were well developed.

I did not like the story.

Were there any other Lizards bothered by the message of the story?

343 swamprat  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:18:17pm

re: #330 iceweasel

Bush is one of the reasons why closing Gitmo is such a nightmare. Why do you think these guys have been held for years without Bush bringing them to trial?

Bush's fault;

Drink!

344 Soona'  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:18:50pm

re: #330 iceweasel

Bush is one of the reasons why closing Gitmo is such a nightmare. Why do you think these guys have been held for years without Bush bringing them to trial?

It's because the evidence collection, and the reasons why some of these guys were detained in the first place, was so shoddy. That's one reason why Obama is contemplating indefinite detention for some of them now. (Which I do not support either.)

They're there because they are a danger to the US's security. It's been proven before that the assholes they have released from Gitmo have returned to terrorism and have been involved with the killing of even more Americans. Let the fuckers rot.

345 The Left  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:20:21pm

re: #327 lurking faith

You know, I was with you on that post right up until you suggested that Abu Ghraib was low level people taking the fall for higher-ups who instituted the policies.

It wasn't policy. It was an idiot NCO and a few pals following him. (They should have been trained and supervised better, yes. But this is not at all the same thing as saying the abuse was policy.)

unfortunately, it appears that abuse was systematic and widespread and took place in places other than Abu Ghraib. The Taguba report (which was only about Abu G) found that the abuses were systematic and also involved members of the intelligence community.

In letters and e-mails to family members, Frederick repeatedly noted that the military-intelligence teams, which included C.I.A. officers and linguists and interrogation specialists from private defense contractors, were the dominant force inside Abu Ghraib. In a letter written in January, he said:


I questioned some of the things that I saw . . . such things as leaving inmates in their cell with no clothes or in female underpants, handcuffing them to the door of their cell—and the answer I got was, “This is how military intelligence (MI) wants it done.” . . . MI has also instructed us to place a prisoner in an isolation cell with little or no clothes, no toilet or running water, no ventilation or window, for as much as three days.

The military-intelligence officers have “encouraged and told us, ‘Great job,’ they were now getting positive results and information,” Frederick wrote. “CID has been present when the military working dogs were used to intimidate prisoners at MI’s request.” At one point, Frederick told his family, he pulled aside his superior officer, Lieutenant Colonel Jerry Phillabaum, the commander of the 320th M.P. Battalion, and asked about the mistreatment of prisoners. “His reply was ‘Don’t worry about it.’ ”

[Link: www.newyorker.com...]

I'm not especially interested in hashing out Abu G again, but it wasn't just a bunch of bad apples.

346 The Left  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:21:10pm

re: #343 swamprat

Bush's fault;

Drink!

hee. I probably should have a drink for that...

347 Throbert McGee  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:24:15pm

re: #281 Macker

With all due respect, this is false. BDS stems directly from the 2000 Election. ODS sufferers go after БХО because of the color of his skin and won't give him credit when he does something right.

I would gently suggest that if for some insane reason the Dems had nominated Kerry again and he'd somehow managed to win the election, we'd now be dealing with the problem of KDS rather than ODS.

348 Flyers1974  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:24:48pm

re: #338 iceweasel

Too much rain the night before made it less challenging than normal. Probably not a bad thing.

349 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:27:42pm

re: #345 iceweasel

[Link: www.newyorker.com...]

I'm not especially interested in hashing out Abu G again, but it wasn't just a bunch of bad apples.

I've heard that and yet I feel no outrage. Tactics like that strike me quite useful. More effective than killing a terrorist would to break his mind and crush his soul then send him home as shell of a man. A warning to his family and neighbors: There are worse things than death, and if you cross us badly we will do them to you.

350 ArchangelMichael  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:27:46pm

The one major difference between Pukecannon and Luap Nor is that Pukecannon is a little more consistent and realistic (I cant believe I said that either, but it's relative) where he seems to want complete isolation. No alliances, no immigration, no free trade. Do your best to pretend the world doesn't exist because there's nothing out there but barbarian heathens. Pat, such things have worked so well in the past haven't they?

Luap Nor on the other hand only wants to avoid military and diplomatic "interventionism" as he calls it. He's ok with free trade but lacks the grey matter to realize that it depends on stable governments and dealing with bad guys when they surface (ie military interventionism), rather than appeasing or ignoring them. Also don't even get me started on the Paulian economics of this: free trade + bad guys + service-based economy + gold standard = a disaster of biblical proportions.

351 Macker  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:28:38pm

re: #343 swamprat

And we're gonna hear that shit for the next three and one-half years...

Here, pass me my drink!

352 lurking faith  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:28:47pm

re: #342 Syrah

Which aspect(s) of the story do you mean by the message?

353 Macker  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:30:15pm

re: #347 Throbert McGee

I would gently suggest that if for some insane reason the Dems had nominated Kerry again and he'd somehow managed to win the election, we'd now be dealing with the problem of KDS rather than ODS.

Ah yes, Kerry and the Global Test.

354 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:30:42pm

re: #344 Soona'

They're there because they are a danger to the US's security. It's been proven before that the assholes they have released from Gitmo have returned to terrorism and have been involved with the killing of even more Americans. Let the fuckers rot.

Sure, we tried to collect intelligence from them with mixed results.

/in retrospect, they should have been summarily executed on the battlefield as unlawful combatants, no Gitmo problem

355 Syrah  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:30:55pm

re: #352 lurking faith

Which aspect(s) of the story do you mean by the message?

It was something that ran throughout but was made explicit at the end.

What did you think of the their reasoning for doing and covering up what they did?

356 The Left  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:34:37pm

re: #349 Dark_Falcon

I've heard that and yet I feel no outrage. Tactics like that strike me quite useful. More effective than killing a terrorist would to break his mind and crush his soul then send him home as shell of a man. A warning to his family and neighbors: There are worse things than death, and if you cross us badly we will do them to you.

I hear you...but I don't think I can agree. It sounds like you're endorsing torture or these humilation tactics as something purely punitive and retributive, is that right? (i might be misreading you). I can't endorse that, and one reason is that I think we have a responsibility to be better than our enemies. Another is that if we do it to them, they'll have no reason not to do it to us, particularly our troops. And I can't endorse tactics that wind up potentially causing them harm.

The other arguments for torture and these techniques are about interrogation: that waterboarding, et.al. are useful means of extracting information. Here I am divided. One reason is that there's reason to think it's not effective.

357 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:36:13pm

How many times does Khalid Sheikh Mohammed have to plead guilty?

/burn his [expletive deleted] ass at the stake!

358 freetoken  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:37:55pm

re: #347 Throbert McGee

I would gently suggest that if for some insane reason the Dems had nominated Kerry again and he'd somehow managed to win the election, we'd now be dealing with the problem of KDS rather than ODS.

Thought about this for a few minutes... I agree that if Kerry got elected there would be some who would have a form of "KDS" (especially tfk, whose fingers would be so bloody from typing that his keyboard would be red...)

However, the depth and intensity of the ODS among certain quarters goes beyond the idea that he is a "liberal" (even "leftist") elitist. As we've seen now with plethora racist GOP (often) jokes/emails/graphics, race is playing a part.

359 ArchangelMichael  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:40:31pm

re: #358 freetoken

He already does mention Kerry in 95% or more of his posts now.

360 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:43:32pm

re: #359 ArchangelMichael

He already does mention Kerry in 95% or more of his posts now.

He was there, in Vietnam, lived through it.

/I'll give TFK that

361 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:46:48pm

re: #356 iceweasel

I hear you...but I don't think I can agree. It sounds like you're endorsing torture or these humilation tactics as something purely punitive and retributive, is that right? (i might be misreading you). I can't endorse that, and one reason is that I think we have a responsibility to be better than our enemies. Another is that if we do it to them, they'll have no reason not to do it to us, particularly our troops. And I can't endorse tactics that wind up potentially causing them harm.

The other arguments for torture and these techniques are about interrogation: that waterboarding, et.al. are useful means of extracting information. Here I am divided. One reason is that there's reason to think it's not effective.

You are mostly correct: I am advocating humiliation and torture tactics as a punitive measure (though I would not announce it as such). The purpose would be to terrify their friends and families with the fear of what we will do to them if they attack us. I contend that they will use such tactics against us regardless of our actions. I do not advocate the random use of such tactics, as was done at Abu Grahib, but rather their being applied to the enemy's hard core fighters only. We weed out the worst of the worst and crush them as an example to the rest: "This is what it means to be the object of our hate."

362 lurking faith  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:47:46pm

re: #355 Syrah

It was something that ran throughout but was made explicit at the end.

What did you think of the their reasoning for doing and covering up what they did?

Doing? Wrong, in s Stalinist way. Covering up? Also wrong, but I do see the dilemma. Do you insist on pure justice regardless of the result?

Does the diary make any difference to how you view the ending?

I certainly can understand not liking the story, but I think it's important to recognize that the story does NOT say "this was the right choice."

363 The Left  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:49:43pm

re: #358 freetoken


However, the depth and intensity of the ODS among certain quarters goes beyond the idea that he is a "liberal" (even "leftist") elitist. As we've seen now with plethora racist GOP (often) jokes/emails/graphics, race is playing a part.

There's also a tie-in with nirtherism, I think. Nirtherism is the extremist expression of a general meme: the idea that Obama is somehow "not one of us". That basic sentiment runs through a lot of the ODS anger, whether it's expressed by claims that Obama is an elitist, or a seekrit Muslim, or is a seekrit terrorist, or hates America or is unamerican. The theme is the same, and race is certainly part of that idea.
Some of the language used to describe Obama has this undercurrent too, such as when he's referred to as a thug, or a street thug, or pimping something, or a hustler. It's hard not to feel that Obama is flushing all the secret and not so secret racist elements in society into the open, just like some of them were flushed out into the open here a couple of days ago.

364 charlesincharge  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:50:10pm

re: #322 swamprat

"All for our own good"
I have fond hope that he will be affected by the realities of economics and life and come to understand that his original plans don't work in real life. I hope he will. I think he is beginning to find out.

Not possible for a narcissist of BHO's caliber. The cognitive dissonance would be the end of him. His sub conscience mind knows this and won't let it happen.

The best we can hope for is that 8 to 10% of the people who bought that "hopey changy" BS have seen the light. And vote more sanely in 2010 and 2012.

365 Syrah  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:51:09pm

re: #362 lurking faith

Doing? Wrong, in s Stalinist way. Covering up? Also wrong, but I do see the dilemma. Do you insist on pure justice regardless of the result?

Does the diary make any difference to how you view the ending?

I certainly can understand not liking the story, but I think it's important to recognize that the story does NOT say "this was the right choice."

I must have missed that. How did the story indicate that this was not the right choice?

366 swamprat  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:54:02pm

re: #361 Dark_Falcon

You are mostly correct: I am advocating humiliation and torture tactics as a punitive measure (though I would not announce it as such). The purpose would be to terrify their friends and families with the fear of what we will do to them if they attack us. I contend that they will use such tactics against us regardless of our actions. I do not advocate the random use of such tactics, as was done at Abu Grahib, but rather their being applied to the enemy's hard core fighters only. We weed out the worst of the worst and crush them as an example to the rest: "This is what it means to be the object of our hate."

That is terrorism. We are against that. Such things should only be used to protect human life; i.e. Stop an attack.

That bit about "hearing the lamentations of their women" is for movies only, ok?

367 ArchangelMichael  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:55:01pm

re: #366 swamprat

That bit about "hearing the lamentations of their women" is for movies only, ok?

DAMN!

//

368 freetoken  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 11:58:23pm

re: #363 iceweasel

Agree that President Obama is strongly seen as "the other". Since then he is not "one of us", he is rejected as being President, and American, etc.

369 Syrah  Sun, Jul 26, 2009 12:00:07am

re: #362 lurking faith

The Diary did not make a difference. It seemed to only represent in its way how the best laid plans can go awry.

370 Killian Bundy  Sun, Jul 26, 2009 12:03:39am

re: #368 freetoken

Agree that President Obama is strongly seen as "the other". Since then he is not "one of us", he is rejected as being President, and American, etc.

/or he just has crazy, economy negative, policies

371 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 26, 2009 12:03:59am

re: #366 swamprat

That is terrorism. We are against that. Such things should only be used to protect human life; i.e. Stop an attack.

That bit about "hearing the lamentations of their women" is for movies only, ok?

Very well. It would not work as a generalized policy, and I know that. The only times I really would use such tactics would be to extract information of a relatively immediate nature. But in such cases, I would ensure that the interrogation breaks the subject.

372 The Left  Sun, Jul 26, 2009 12:11:03am

re: #371 Dark_Falcon

Very well. It would not work as a generalized policy, and I know that. The only times I really would use such tactics would be to extract information of a relatively immediate nature. But in such cases, I would ensure that the interrogation breaks the subject.

Here's my other problem though, apart from my general opposition to torture: intelligence experts tell us it doesn't work. In fact, it's in precisely the scenario where most people can be convinced that it's justified-- the ticking time-bomb scenario-- where it's least likely to work.

Religious extremists are the hardest cases. They ponder in their own private space, performing a kind of self-hypnosis. They are usually well educated. Their lives are financially and emotionally tidy. They tend to live in an ascetic manner, and to look down on nonbelievers. They tend to be physically and mentally strong, and not to be influenced by material things—by either the incentives or the disincentives available in prison. Often the rightness of their cause trumps all else, so they can commit any outrage—lie, cheat, steal, betray, kill—without remorse. Yet under suffi-cient duress, Koubi says, most men of even this kind will eventually break—most, but not all. Some cannot be broken.

"They are very rare," he says, "but in some cases the more aggressive you get, and the worse things get, the more these men will withdraw into their own world, until you cannot reach them."


The Dark Art of Interrogation

What really convinced me though is this piece by Malcolm Nance in Small Wars Journal on waterboarding:

I have stated publicly and repeatedly that I would personally cut Bin Laden’s heart out with a plastic MRE spoon if we per chance meet on the battlefield. Yet, once captive I believe that the better angels of our nature and our nation’s core values would eventually convince any terrorist that they indeed have erred in their murderous ways. Once convicted in a fair, public tribunal, they would have the rest of their lives, however short the law makes it, to come to terms with their God and their acts.

373 lurking faith  Sun, Jul 26, 2009 12:13:56am

re: #365 Syrah

I must have missed that. How did the story indicate that this was not the right choice?

Not what I said. I said the story did not say "this is right." I guess I should also have mentioned that the story also did not say "this is wrong."

The heroes disagreed about what they should do. I think that leaves it up to the audience to judge who was right.

But I have always thought that the primary message of Watchmen was simply that our leaders and protectors are human, with weaknesses and fallibility, and of course people can get it spectacularly wrong no matter how good their intentions.

374 Killian Bundy  Sun, Jul 26, 2009 12:14:41am

re: #372 iceweasel

/you do know that the CIA is chartered to break the law, right?

375 Syrah  Sun, Jul 26, 2009 12:24:19am

re: #373 lurking faith

Not what I said. I said the story did not say "this is right." I guess I should also have mentioned that the story also did not say "this is wrong."

The heroes disagreed about what they should do. I think that leaves it up to the audience to judge who was right.

But I have always thought that the primary message of Watchmen was simply that our leaders and protectors are human, with weaknesses and fallibility, and of course people can get it spectacularly wrong no matter how good their intentions.

The ambiguity was not enough for me.

The debate at the end, fistfight not withstanding, argued for an "the ends justify the means" morality.

The characters at the end were more concerned that somebody would find out what they did and unravel their scheme then whether or not what they had done was just.

They argument that they had was more about would it work then was it just.

376 The Left  Sun, Jul 26, 2009 12:26:13am

re: #374 Killian Bundy

/you do know that the CIA is chartered to break the law, right?

Nope.

377 Killian Bundy  Sun, Jul 26, 2009 12:28:10am

re: #376 ice weasel

Nope.

/welcome to an alternative universe that's not reality

378 The Left  Sun, Jul 26, 2009 12:34:19am

re: #377 Killian Bundy

/welcome to an alternative universe that's not reality

As Stephen Colbert pointed out, reality does have a well-known liberal bias. :)

379 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 26, 2009 12:36:07am

re: #376 iceweasel

Sorry about my earlier remarks. I find the issue of detainees a difficult one and I perhaps let my anger get the best of me.

380 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 26, 2009 12:36:41am

re: #378 iceweasel

As Stephen Colbert pointed out, reality does have a well-known liberal bias. :)

Colbert is full of crap, though you are not.

381 Killian Bundy  Sun, Jul 26, 2009 12:37:02am

re: #378 iceweasel

As Stephen Colbert pointed out

/wow

382 The Left  Sun, Jul 26, 2009 12:37:48am

re: #379 Dark_Falcon

Sorry about my earlier remarks. I find the issue of detainees a difficult one and I perhaps let my anger get the best of me.

Hey, nothing to apologise for! The detainee issue is horribly difficult. It's natural to feel angry about it too. I know I do.

383 The Left  Sun, Jul 26, 2009 12:39:46am

re: #380 Dark_Falcon

Colbert is full of crap, though you are not.

The best part of that White House Correspondents Dinner was how viciously he savaged the media, IMO. And colbert's not all bad-- he was pretty funny about Pat buchanan last week.

384 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 26, 2009 12:57:10am

re: #383 iceweasel

The best part of that White House Correspondents Dinner was how viciously he savaged the media, IMO. And colbert's not all bad-- he was pretty funny about Pat buchanan last week.

No, he's not all bad; His trip to Iraq showed real class and a sincere admiration for the armed forces not normally found in the entertainment industry.

385 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jul 26, 2009 12:57:28am

Moving to the next thread now...

386 Randall Gross  Sun, Jul 26, 2009 5:27:22am

I watched this, and as Charles says it's visually stunning, there are quite a few things I dislike about the film however. Mostly it's the good guys are bad guys who are good guys who are bad guys who can't decide if they are good guys aspects. The conclusion is well... don't want to wreck the show for anyone.

387 SixDegrees  Sun, Jul 26, 2009 5:55:35am

re: #374 Killian Bundy

/you do know that the CIA is chartered to break the law, right?

They're chartered to gather foreign intelligence. They don't have an open license to break laws, nor a mandate to do so as far as I know. Can you provide a reference to the legislation they're governed by that says otherwise?

388 Pupdawg  Sun, Jul 26, 2009 5:56:51am

The movie was very disappointing...if the giant, blue, nude guy's 'package-in-your-face' throughout the movie doesn't bother you then you were not sitting in the front row like my daughter and I. My daughter is an adult but the super-sized nudity was most disturbing. The movie had lots of problems, imo.

389 FrogMarch  Sun, Jul 26, 2009 6:52:52am

I watched this movie last night. - I thought it totally sucked.

But hollywood did manage to take a swipe at Ronald Reagan at the very end of the movie. You know- so American children who know nothing about politics or world history can have a negative notion about a great man.

390 FrogMarch  Sun, Jul 26, 2009 6:54:44am

The man who played the sort-of bat-man was very hot. That's about the only good thing I can say about this horrible movie. *meow*

391 FrogMarch  Sun, Jul 26, 2009 7:28:23am

A little something for the ladies: *Meow*

392 Drider  Sun, Jul 26, 2009 9:33:02am

Save your money folks.The Watchman was one of "the" worst movies I have ever watched.
Unless your some comic fan, you will more than likely hate it.

393 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jul 26, 2009 9:39:51am

re: #392 Drider

Save your money folks.The Watchman was one of "the" worst movies I have ever watched.
Unless your some comic fan, you will more than likely hate it.

I couldn't possibly disagree more. This was one of the best movies of its type I've ever seen.

394 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jul 26, 2009 9:41:32am

re: #388 Pupdawg

The movie was very disappointing...if the giant, blue, nude guy's 'package-in-your-face' throughout the movie doesn't bother you then you were not sitting in the front row like my daughter and I. My daughter is an adult but the super-sized nudity was most disturbing. The movie had lots of problems, imo.

Didn't bother me at all -- and two brief scenes is not "throughout the movie."

395 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jul 26, 2009 9:43:47am

re: #389 FrogMarch

I watched this movie last night. - I thought it totally sucked.

But hollywood did manage to take a swipe at Ronald Reagan at the very end of the movie. You know- so American children who know nothing about politics or world history can have a negative notion about a great man.

Richard Nixon makes a comment about "America will never elect a cowboy actor," but I didn't see that as a "swipe at Ronald Reagan" at all.

396 Aye Pod  Sun, Jul 26, 2009 9:46:29am

re: #375 Syrah

The ambiguity was not enough for me.

The debate at the end, fistfight not withstanding, argued for an "the ends justify the means" morality.

The characters at the end were more concerned that somebody would find out what they did and unravel their scheme then whether or not what they had done was just.

I don't think that last part is fair. They were only concerned about the 'scheme unravelling' because that would have resulted in man's annihilation.

397 Randall Gross  Sun, Jul 26, 2009 9:48:21am

re: #396 Jimmah

I don't think that last part is fair. They were only concerned about the 'scheme unravelling' because that would have resulted in man's annihilation.

It's not just that - it's that they are promoting terror as a valid means to achieve world peace. Way to encourage the megalomaniac self styled philosopher kings among us who think they know what's best...

398 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jul 26, 2009 9:53:47am

re: #397 Thanos

It's not just that - it's that they are promoting terror as a valid means to achieve world peace. Way to encourage the megalomaniac self styled philosopher kings among us who think they know what's best...

I have to disagree - I didn't see it as promoting what happened. The final scenes are loaded with ambiguity, and the main protagonist Rohrschach is pretty obviously not onboard with what happens.

Also, don't forget the plot at that point -- Richard Nixon was just about to launch a preemptive nuclear strike on the Soviet Union. That's one of the interesting moral dilemmas it creates. The "villain" isn't just doing it to bring about world peace -- he's doing it to prevent the end of the world.

399 Aye Pod  Sun, Jul 26, 2009 9:56:36am

I thought this was an excellent film. And I'm not a great fan of graphic novels, or superhero movies.

Some thoughts (it was quite thought provoking) -

The resolution of the movie suggested that there are times when we have to sacrifice even our ideals to guarantee survival. Rorsasch disagrees: "Never compromise even in the face of armageddon"

However, if humanity is destroyed, it's ideals go with it. In the movie it was easy to generate a sense of absolute certainty regarding the stakes; of course, in real life that's seldom if ever the case, and so in reality it's much more difficult to know whether such logic applies to the situation you are looking at and therefore much more difficult to arrive at such a conclusion.

It also made be think about the debate about torture, in particular the idea of torture with the aim of saving many lives.

400 Aye Pod  Sun, Jul 26, 2009 10:00:52am

re: #395 Charles

Richard Nixon makes a comment about "America will never elect a cowboy actor," but I didn't see that as a "swipe at Ronald Reagan" at all.

Yep - and as we all know America did indeed vote for the "cowboy actor". The joke was on Nixon.

401 Randall Gross  Sun, Jul 26, 2009 10:08:09am

re: #398 Charles

Sure, but Rorschach got killed for just wanting to tell the truth. This is an extension of "we know what's best for you, you can't deal with reality". The extreme caricaturization through leftist lenses of the politicos was also somewhat disturbing. Nixon if you recall was a moderate, and was much less likely to put us in a position to have a nuclear war than either Reagan or Kennedy if the facts are looked at. Was he somewhat slimy in how he operated politically? You bet.

402 revgdright  Sun, Jul 26, 2009 10:08:59am

Friend of mined gave me the book in the 80's. Read it then and liked it, but was a recovering alcoholic then and was into a lot of weird things. Sort of forgot all about it. Saw it twice in the theaters and bought the director's cut DVD. Still good, although the wife didn't like it. Younger guy I work with took his wife and she cried. It's one of those movies that if you grew up in the 60's and are not nostalgic about the 80's, you'll get. Why wasn't 99 Luftballoons on the soundtack CD?

403 RexMundi  Sun, Jul 26, 2009 10:16:56am

Loved the graphic novel. Didn't hate the movie, but, it's missing something. For the longest time, plenty of comic fanboys were saying that Watchmen was unfilmable. I couldn't see why then, and after it's been done, I still don't know what it is about it, but they're right. I still recommend that someone check it out, the movie isn't bad.

404 RexMundi  Sun, Jul 26, 2009 10:30:22am

re: #51 NJDhockeyfan

How bout some Gov't Mule for a Saturday night?

Nice. I have over 200 live Mule shows. ;)

405 Aye Pod  Sun, Jul 26, 2009 10:30:23am

re: #401 Thanos

Sure, but Rorschach got killed for just wanting to tell the truth. This is an extension of "we know what's best for you, you can't deal with reality".

You are neglecting to mention that if they had let him go to tell the truth, the world would have been lost.

406 Randall Gross  Sun, Jul 26, 2009 10:34:44am

re: #405 Jimmah

You are neglecting to mention that if they had let him go to tell the truth, the world would have been lost.

That's an assumption only made possible through the pathetic plot device of Dr. Manhattan knowing the future, but not well enough to prevent the deaths of fifteen million. In other words they created only two possible outcomes, one absolutely terrible, and the other worse just so they would have pretext to kill Rorschach.
It works ok in comics sometimes, but because they interwove it with alternate universe "reality" it got the big fail for me - things are much more complex than that, we can't predict the future, and megalomania was bad even in Alexander's days.

407 Aye Pod  Sun, Jul 26, 2009 10:46:45am

re: #406 Thanos

I don't see it as a pathetic plot device, I see it as a way of facilitating the thorough exploration of this thought, to it's most extreme end. I think you are supposed to understand that there is a difference between the situation created in the movie and real life, as I pointed out in post #399 above.

408 FrogMarch  Sun, Jul 26, 2009 11:28:22am

re: #395 Charles

Richard Nixon makes a comment about "America will never elect a cowboy actor," but I didn't see that as a "swipe at Ronald Reagan" at all.

Maybe I was tired - but at the very end - it wasn't Nixon who said it - it was the newspaper owner.

409 FrogMarch  Sun, Jul 26, 2009 11:32:35am

re: #408 FrogMarch

Maybe I was tired - but at the very end - it wasn't Nixon who said it - it was the newspaper owner.

(spoiler - don't read if you have not yet seen the movie)

I'm fairly certain in fact that it was the newspaper owner. After half of NY was destroyed, the Newspaper didn't have anything to report. Peace, love, hippies and communists were sprouting everywhere - and who needs a cowboy like Ronald Reagan. (I paraphrase - but that was the jist)

410 Charles Johnson  Sun, Jul 26, 2009 11:38:34am

re: #409 FrogMarch

(spoiler - don't read if you have not yet seen the movie)

I'm fairly certain in fact that it was the newspaper owner. After half of NY was destroyed, the Newspaper didn't have anything to report. Peace, love, hippies and communists were sprouting everywhere - and who needs a cowboy like Ronald Reagan. (I paraphrase - but that was the jist)

Yeah, you're right -- sorry! In any case, I still don't think it was a swipe at Reagan -- just an ironic note.

411 Randall Gross  Sun, Jul 26, 2009 11:42:13am

re: #407 Jimmah

Well there we will disagree, to me it's hollywood deus ex machina writ large.

412 FrogMarch  Sun, Jul 26, 2009 11:47:31am

re: #410 Charles

Yeah, you're right -- sorry! In any case, I still don't think it was a swipe at Reagan -- just an ironic note.

No biggie. After you said Nixon said it, I had to stop and think.
(did he?) Anyway, I took it as a swipe. (A small, fast one - but a swipe.) or maybe it's my super sensitive leftist-detecto-radar kicking in?

413 Salamantis  Sun, Jul 26, 2009 12:30:46pm

There are two major differences that I detect between the movie and the book. The first, of course, is the different ending. Although I would have loved to see the gigantic interdimensional squids attack, the diverted use of Dr. Manhattan's power instead, with his partial cooperation, adds an additional layer of complexity and ambiguity for me, and I prefer it.

The second major difference is the complete and utter absence of the internal sidestory, Tales of the Black Freighter, which served as a cryptic dark mirror subplot for the entire book.

But DC Comics has done us the service of animating it separately; here is the 25-minute mini-movie, which can be viewed full screen:

[Link: www.wisevid.com...]

414 Pupdawg  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:57:28am

re: #394 Charles

Didn't bother me at all -- and two brief scenes is not "throughout the movie."

Maybe it should have.
Those 'two brief scenes' were gratuitous, IMHO.
The movie actually sucked. It was one of the worst of the graphic-novel / comic-to-big-screen projects yet. In fact, the previews of this movie were much better than the finished product, again IMHO.
Dr. Manhattan might have done more damage if he had fought 'the war' completely nude as well. The sight of a huge blue weenie coming at you would be enough to level the battlefield. LOL
Rorschach was very good, though.

415 medaura18586  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:25:39am

re: #398 Charles

I have to disagree - I didn't see it as promoting what happened. The final scenes are loaded with ambiguity, and the main protagonist Rohrschach is pretty obviously not onboard with what happens.

Also, don't forget the plot at that point -- Richard Nixon was just about to launch a preemptive nuclear strike on the Soviet Union. That's one of the interesting moral dilemmas it creates. The "villain" isn't just doing it to bring about world peace -- he's doing it to prevent the end of the world.

I was intensely drawn to the movie previews from about a year ago -- it looked sci-fi, epic, heroic,.. larger than life. A family friend of us who is a big comic-book dork also recommended the graphic novel, and before the movie was out, he recommended the animated series, which Charles, if you liked the movie but couldn't bother reading the novel, you should most definitely check out. The animated rendition was excellent, the only awkward drawback being the use of a male voice for the female characters as well. An easily avoidable short-coming, but easy to zone out after a while.

The graphic novel is highly ambitious in exploring many unorthodox moral/societal scenarios. Ultimately, its great ambition is its undoing, because the questions it raises are more profound than the answers it provides. For example, Dr. Manhattan's interaction with Miss Jupiter on Mars, I thought was going somewhere very fundamental... yet the answer Manhattan comes up with for valuing human life is profoundly underwhelming: "Out of all the genetic combination of sperm and egg, a unique human being had to emerge." It is unsatisfying, and sounds fabricated just for the purpose of dragging Manhattan out of the nihilistic hole he had dug himself into. This was a major shortcoming as far as the realm of ideas is concerned, both in the novel and in the movie.

The film's ending was different from the novel's though, so I want to discuss that for a moment, since it's what Charles is referring to. I have to agree with Thanos's assessment and take it a bit further. The movie seems to condone the use of terrorism and the casual disposal of human lives as a means toward a grand end, achieving world peace or world unity. Not only that, but the utilitarian grounds employed are sickening: "I killed millions to save billions." -- as if human lives are subject to some maximization algorithm, and all interchangeable so long as the greatest number of them can be preserved of supported.

The moral ambiguity of the ending is belabored. Dr. Manhattan pretends to remain aloof, above human judgments of good and evil; he says "I neither condemn it nor condone it, but I understand it." But by killing
Rorschach he did in fact, condone what happened.

The only semblance of justice could have been rescued if Dr. Manhattan had killed Adrian Veidt in the end. The latter is self-righteous about his schemes but not self-less. He is authoritarian, kills gratuitously (his scientists), and suffers from delusions of grandeur (a self-styled Alexander the Great). If he is so intelligent that he can emotionally toy with Dr. Manhattan by orchestrating the talk-show meltdown and inducing his exile, why can't he instead convince him to intervene and disarm the Soviet Union before things escalate into the mutual-assured-destruction scenario he kills millions to prevent? So the whole necessity of the apocalyptic route Adrian Veidt settles for falls flat.

The world emerging from his scheme is also disgusting: cooperation and merger between the U.S. and the USSR, hybrid ideology and hybrid economic system. So the conclusion is a grand compromise with evil for the same of preserving a utilitarian balance.

No, the movie was subversive and its ideas are dangerous.

416 medaura18586  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:28:18am

re: #415 medaura18586

PIMF: So the conclusion is a grand compromise with evil for the sake of preserving a utilitarian balance.

417 medaura18586  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 8:36:11am

re: #415 medaura18586

More PIMFies:

...A family friend of ours who is a big comic-book dork also recommended the graphic novel...

...

"Out of all the millions of possible genetic combinations of sperm and egg, a unique human being had to emerge."

418 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 12:30:57pm

re: #414 Pupdawg

Maybe it should have.

No thanks -- I don't have any particular hangups about the human body, and don't want to acquire any.

419 Aye Pod  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 12:38:30pm

re: #415 medaura18586

Good post. I'm still thinking about this.

420 medaura18586  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 1:07:49pm

re: #418 Charles

No thanks -- I don't have any particular hangups about the human body, and don't want to acquire any.

Hard to believe of everything that was going on in that movie, that's what people got hung up over. Until someone mentioned it here, I hadn't even noticed, and I was sitting near the front row at the theater.

421 mph  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 1:33:11pm

I agree with everything Kejda says above, but also think the movie was well executed. Regardless of its morality (the same relativist undertones of Guy Fawkes of V for Vendetta), I was drawn to the characters and pulling for a good outcome.

422 medaura18586  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:22:33pm

re: #419 Jimmah

Something else for you to ponder may be Rorcheck's inconsistency of character: on the one hand he's a moral absolutist -- black and white, right and wrong, and won't compromise til the very end -- on the other hand, he justifies and whitewashes the Comedian's slips into immorality -- rape, murdering civilians. Or is he just crazy and thus absolved from any requirement of consistency?

So who does watch the watchmen? Other than Dr. Manhattan, none of them have superpowers. They're just average Joes who want to dictate morality to the masses, yet many of them (e.g. the Comedian) are just as abusive as the villains they are opposed to. So are they just self-righteous authoritarians?

423 medaura18586  Mon, Jul 27, 2009 5:22:58pm

And yes, the movie was very engaging and well executed, no doubt about it.


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