Rifqa Bary and the Religious Right

Religion • Views: 5,978

Rifqa Bary, the 17-year old girl raised as a Muslim who converted to Christianity and ran away from home, claiming her parents were going to murder her, suddenly turned up on a conference call a few days ago, led by Shirley Dobson, wife of Focus on the Family’s James Dobson, and featuring Tony Perkins of the Family Research Council.

And when asked to pray, she began raving incoherently about “Jesus.” Warning: this is pretty disturbing and creepy stuff.

Youtube Video

Florida authorities are investigating how she ended up on this call — because she’s supposed to be in protective custody and no one gave permission for it.

On Monday, DCF spokeswoman Carrie Hoeppner said the state agency “had no knowledge of this until it surfaced. Although she is 17, she remains in protective custody. Neither the Department nor do we believe her parents, gave permission for her participation in this call with strangers, which is of concern to us.”

“Right now, we are working to get more background on the video such as when it posted and who arranged it.”

Rifqa’s lawyer, John Stemberger, has not returned a call seeking comment.

Also see
‘No Evidence’ Rifqa Bary’s Parents Want to Kill Her

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181 comments
1 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:11:27pm

This is an endless exploitive fantasy that is ultimately very dangerous. It is one more myth being created about the evil government taking an innocent Christian away to be killed by her evil Muslim parents.

Isn’t it obvious the evil propaganda elements at play here…

1. The gov’t hates Christians so much that they will send a Christian girl to her death…

2. Muslims are evil, of course all of them would kill their kids if they transgressed the faith. (this also belittles the real cases of this).

3. Obama, who is a secret Muslim anyway, is behind it all.

4. It is time to take up arms and take America back.

This is a hateful and terrifying message that the gullible and frightened will believe. It combines religious fervor with nationalism, latent racism and a false sense of victimization.

Nothing at all good can come of it. These emotions fuel all manner of paranoid fantasy and they justify violence to those who buy them.

2 bofhell  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:11:39pm

Is it me or does the guy at the beginning sound like Chris Farley as Matt Foley?

3 Bubblehead II  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:11:48pm

Some thing smells. What I do not know. Just that little tingle that say some thing isn’t just right.

4 ryannon  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:12:26pm

“Our little sister’s on the line…”

Oh my.

sigh.

I’m far from being a trained mental health professional, but I hear a lot of sexual sexual hysteria in her voice…

The rest sounds like an exorcism…

5 ryannon  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:13:24pm

re: #4 ryannon

“Our little sister’s on the line…”

Oh my.

sigh.

I’m far from being a trained mental health professional, but I hear a lot of sexual sexual hysteria in her voice…

The rest sounds like an exorcism…

6 Jack Burton  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:13:58pm

Ok I’ll try this again. 1000 Quatloos on a meltdown after 50 and before 100.

7 Bubblehead II  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:14:20pm

re: #3 Bubblehead II

Of course it may be that it is connected to James Dobson.

8 Liberally Conservative  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:17:04pm

This isn’t out-of-character for the, ahem, emotional quarter of American Evangelical Christianity. This is more creepy to me than most, I’d guess, because this is familiar.

9 zephirus  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:21:06pm

This is scary, shocking, and downright cultish. The child seems mentally unbalanced. And she started on this “spiritual journey” at the age of 13??? 13??? Hardly past the age of reason. What would the response be if a Christian child did the same, ranting instead “Praise Allah”?

10 Ojoe  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:21:44pm

If the video has “incoherent… raving about “Jesus”, I am certainly not going to watch.

That kind of stuff set my spiritual journey back a lot of years.

Piss on them.

ALL good people are seamlessly connected at the deepest level.

ENOUGH with this division, us - them stuff.

AVAST.

11 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:22:52pm

Creepy sounding or not, this is standard charismatic praying, which can be found in many fundamentalist meetings any day of the week. This sort of babbling goes on all the time, and is the standard pattern for aesthetic, spirit-filled prayer.

On the flip side, she is being used by these people, which is evident by the set ups in the questions and comments being made to her and about her.

12 The Shadow Do  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:23:26pm

Well, she certainly seems, well, enthusiastic.

13 austin_blue  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:24:03pm

re: #10 Ojoe

If the video has “incoherent… raving about “Jesus”, I am certainly not going to watch.

That kind of stuff set my spiritual journey back a lot of years.

Piss on them.

ALL good people are seamlessly connected at the deepest level.

ENOUGH with this division, us - them stuff.

AVAST.

Wow. It reminded me of “Rosemary’s Baby” there at the end.

14 zephirus  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:24:25pm

re: #5 ryannon

Exorcism, agreed. But sexual hysteria? I don’t know what you mean by that.

15 ryannon  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:24:32pm

re: #10 Ojoe

If the video has “incoherent… raving about “Jesus”, I am certainly not going to watch.

That kind of stuff set my spiritual journey back a lot of years.

Piss on them.

ALL good people are seamlessly connected at the deepest level.

ENOUGH with this division, us - them stuff.

AVAST.


Avast is one of the best free real-time malware scanners, Joe…

[Link: www.avast.com…]

16 ryannon  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:25:42pm

re: #14 zephirus

Exorcism, agreed. But sexual hysteria? I don’t know what you mean by that.


It’s a Freudian reference.

17 Ojoe  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:25:52pm

re: #6 ArchangelMichael

Quatloos dot com

18 Ojoe  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:27:16pm

re: #13 austin_blue

Thanks for the report.

re: #15 ryannon

“Avast” means “Stop” in pirate !

19 zephirus  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:27:21pm

re: #10 Ojoe

Yes…the “us vs them” psychology is dangerous, deep and very dark.

20 AuntAcid  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:27:53pm

if she would amp it up a bit she could get a gig on the T-n-V. Jeezsus!

21 zephirus  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:28:11pm

re: #16 ryannon

Ah. Don’t know much about Freud. Will have to look that up.

22 Ojoe  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:28:17pm

re: #19 zephirus

Very well put.

23 The Shadow Do  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:28:51pm

re: #13 austin_blue

Wow. It reminded me of “Rosemary’s Baby” there at the end.

Reminded me a really bad porn movie, you know the big final orgy scene…

Yes! Yes! Yes! Jesus! Jesus! Yes! Jesus! etc etc etc…

24 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:29:35pm

re: #19 zephirus

Yes…the “us vs them” psychology is dangerous, deep and very dark.

Most “religion” has always been “us versus them” or haven’t you noticed? You know, we don’t eat pork because we are not like them. You are not a true Christian if you don’t believe in the Trinity.

Is this all new to you?

25 ryannon  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:30:55pm

re: #21 zephirus

Ah. Don’t know much about Freud. Will have to look that up.

Here’s a starter:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

26 Danny  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:31:09pm

Rifqa may have a promising carreer as an auctioneer.

27 albusteve  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:31:16pm

send her back to her parents…case closed

28 ryannon  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:31:49pm

re: #26 Danny

Rifqa may have a promising carreer as an auctioneer.

I woudn’t bid on it.

29 Bubblehead II  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:33:41pm

Bubblehead II bailing out

For those of you who wonder why. These threads tend to get nasty and self -destructive and I don’t want to be part of it.

30 Danny  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:35:17pm

Testing…am I still here?

31 AuntAcid  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:37:43pm

re: #28 ryannon

I woudn’t bid on it.

I gavel you’ve done this before?

32 TheAntichrist  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:38:18pm

Jeeesus!

33 Egregious Philbin  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:38:19pm

Wow…get that girl some Thorazine, stat!

34 AuntAcid  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:39:30pm

re: #30 Danny

Testing…am I still here?

Hell yes. shoot again.

35 ryannon  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:41:12pm

re: #31 AuntAcid

I gavel you’ve done this before?

Not really.

But I finally decided to go where the auction is.

36 funky chicken  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:41:16pm

I still have a nagging feeling about this girl. It seems she has a history of odd behavior and difficulty telling the truth. I kinda hope she’s playing these people for fools and hasn’t been indoctrinated into a cult.

37 Randall Gross  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:41:22pm

Interesting article here. Seems we have some long time culture warriors involved:

If Rifqa’s claims are indeed false, that raises the question of whether she may have been prodded by her new friends at Global Revolution Church to make the death-threat accusations, and whether she was somehow lured to Orlando by the Lorenzes via the Internet. The couple, who could not be reached for comment, have denied it to the media. But Beverly Lorenz has acknowledged that she talked by phone with Rifqa before the girl ran away. Blake Lorenz, who insists that Rifqa will be killed if she goes home, earlier this month made clear to reporters his Crusades-era belief that this is part of Christianity’s holy struggle against Islam: “These are the last days; these are the end times,” he said, “and this conflict between Islam and Christianity is going to grow greater. This conflict between good and evil is going to grow greater.”

As a result, says McCarthy, “you wonder if people have been stoking this fear in her head, telling her, ‘This is what the Koran says will happen to you.’ ” The Orlando lawyer who claims to represent Rifqa, conservative activist John Stemberger, head of the Florida Family Policy Council (which fought in 2005 to keep Terri Schiavo on life support), last week wrote in a petition to keep the girl in Florida that she “is in imminent threat of harm from the extreme radical Muslim community in her hometown of Columbus.”

38 Guanxi88  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:41:35pm

I think we expose ourselves to a real danger by ridiculing their modes of prayer. There are many faiths with profoundly ‘enthusiastic’ practices, and few of them catch the flak that these “spiritual language’ prayers do.

I’m not a Christian, nor was I raised one, but was raised in proximity to a sect of ecstatic mystics known as “The Church of G-d with Signs and Wonders”, a/k/a “snakehandlers,” and while one can make sport of them (channeling Karl from Slingblade) doing so overlooks the profoundly interesting aspects of it.

This sort of glossolalic prayer is not unheard of, and is not necessarily a sign of whackiness. In short, I worry more about their politics and respect for the rule of law than I do their unorthodox prayers.

39 BlackFedora  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:42:37pm

Well…

As someone who has spent an abundant amount of time in evangelical churches I can’t say the manner of prayer there disturbed me very much. I’m very much desensitized to this sort of thing.

However, this young lady is being exploited by the crazy Christian right to push their theocratic agenda and this in my mind is a sin.

40 Mark Pennington  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:43:14pm

Listening to that made me want to puke. She is being manipulated by some pretty bigoted folks who are using her to score points in the culture wars.

41 Randall Gross  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:43:15pm

It’s also notable that Lorenz has a “mission to Israel” in 2010, probably wants to “perfect” some Jews.

42 Guanxi88  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:43:16pm

re: #39 BlackFedora

My very thoughts, in many fewer words.

43 Guanxi88  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:44:08pm

re: #41 Thanos

It’s also notable that Lorenz has a “mission to Israel” in 2010, probably wants to “perfect” some Jews.

Good luck to him with that. My wife has tried it with me, and I still leave my socks in the living room and my coffee cups on the nightstand.

44 Bubblehead II  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:44:23pm

re: #30 Danny

So am I. My #29 was not a flounce. But I think I just screwed up in my linking as well as I don’t want to take part in these particular threads.

If that post was out of line, my apologize Charles

45 ryannon  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:44:42pm

re: #38 Guanxi88

I think we expose ourselves to a real danger by ridiculing their modes of prayer. There are many faiths with profoundly ‘enthusiastic’ practices, and few of them catch the flak that these “spiritual language’ prayers do.

I’m not a Christian, nor was I raised one, but was raised in proximity to a sect of ecstatic mystics known as “The Church of G-d with Signs and Wonders”, a/k/a “snakehandlers,” and while one can make sport of them (channeling Karl from Slingblade) doing so overlooks the profoundly interesting aspects of it.

This sort of glossolalic prayer is not unheard of, and is not necessarily a sign of whackiness. In short, I worry more about their politics and respect for the rule of law than I do their unorthodox prayers.

I completely agree.

But for me, there’s something unbalanced about this one…

46 avanti  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:44:52pm

re: #24 Walter L. Newton

Most “religion” has always been “us versus them” or haven’t you noticed? You know, we don’t eat pork because we are not like them. You are not a true Christian if you don’t believe in the Trinity.

Is this all new to you?

So much blood has been shed by the Church because of an omission from the Gospel: “Ye shall be indifferent as to what your neighbor’s religion is.” Not merely tolerant of it, but indifferent to it. Divinity is claimed for many religions; but no religion is great enough or divine enough to add that new law to its code.
- Mark Twain

47 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:45:03pm

re: #39 BlackFedora

Well…

As someone who has spent an abundant amount of time in evangelical churches I can’t say the manner of prayer there disturbed me very much. I’m very much desensitized to this sort of thing.

However, this young lady is being exploited by the crazy Christian right to push their theocratic agenda and this in my mind is a sin.

I said the same thing above, this is not creepy or disturbing, except to someone not familiar with charismatic spirit-filled praying.

But, there probably is no doubt that this girl is being exploited for her beliefs and her racial heritage.

That’s the real sin/crime here.

48 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:45:26pm

That was very disturbing. On many levels.

49 albusteve  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:45:33pm

creepy indeed…into the realm of the surreal…in the end I was laughing my butt off…just think when these people win the congress and the presidency…pray for your protection is right

50 Randall Gross  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:45:41pm

re: #44 Bubblehead II

So am I. My #29 was not a flounce. But I think I just screwed up in my linking as well as I don’t want to take part in these particular threads.

If that post was out of line, my apologize Charles

I assumed you were bailing on the thread, flouncers usually leave a long winded diatribe.

51 Guanxi88  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:45:52pm

re: #45 ryannon

I completely agree.

But for me, there’s something unbalanced about this one…

Well, nothing says they can’t be both unbalanced and sorta out there theologically. The two go together, and often the former is mistaken for the latter, and vice versa.

52 zephirus  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:46:20pm

re: #24 Walter L. Newton

No - not new to me at all. As a nonbeliever, I see clearly how religious fervor is the root cause of much conflict, yet religion does provide solace to some. Here’s a bumpersticker I like: “gods don’t kill people, people with gods kill people.”

53 AuntAcid  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:47:03pm

re: #35 ryannon

Not really.

But I finally decided to go where the auction is.

do you go standing up?

54 jaunte  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:47:10pm

re: #37 Thanos

Interesting article here. Seems we have some long time culture warriors involved:

That article says that the Lorenzes waited three weeks to report Rifqa Bary’s whereabouts to police. Isn’t that legally negligent in the case of a minor runaway?

55 Guanxi88  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:47:12pm

re: #47 Walter L. Newton


But, there probably is no doubt that this girl is being exploited for her beliefs and her racial heritage.

Walter, if you smoked cigars, and if I had one around, I’d give it you. Dead-on: exploitation is exactly what it is. Had she been a WASP-y methodist or UU, we’d never have heard about the case at all.

56 Liberally Conservative  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:48:10pm

re: #38 Guanxi88

I think we expose ourselves to a real danger by ridiculing their modes of prayer. There are many faiths with profoundly ‘enthusiastic’ practices, and few of them catch the flak that these “spiritual language’ prayers do.

I’m not a Christian, nor was I raised one, but was raised in proximity to a sect of ecstatic mystics known as “The Church of G-d with Signs and Wonders”, a/k/a “snakehandlers,” and while one can make sport of them (channeling Karl from Slingblade) doing so overlooks the profoundly interesting aspects of it.

This sort of glossolalic prayer is not unheard of, and is not necessarily a sign of whackiness. In short, I worry more about their politics and respect for the rule of law than I do their unorthodox prayers.

The problem is that this girl is 17, and FotF is using her to achieve their own ends.

If she was 30, this wouldn’t be nearly as troubling. But she’s 17, and she should be with her parents or other family, not giving publicity to a charismatic Christian group as a “modern-day persecuted ex-Muslim”.

57 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:48:13pm

re: #52 zephirus

No - not new to me at all. As a nonbeliever, I see clearly how religious fervor is the root cause of much conflict, yet religion does provide solace to some. Here’s a bumpersticker I like: “gods don’t kill people, people with gods kill people.”

Well, I’m an atheist, so none of it holds any water with me. But I am as versed in world religions as one can be.

58 albusteve  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:48:24pm

re: #47 Walter L. Newton

I said the same thing above, this is not creepy or disturbing, except to someone not familiar with charismatic spirit-filled praying.

But, there probably is no doubt that this girl is being exploited for her beliefs and her racial heritage.

That’s the real sin/crime here.

there is no question she has been exploited…so now what?…my guess is she becomes the next evangelical superstar

59 avanti  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:48:50pm

re: #50 Thanos

I assumed you were bailing on the thread, flouncers usually leave a long winded diatribe.

Premature flounceation.

60 Bubblehead II  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:49:00pm

re: #50 Thanos

Thanks. Even though he is gone. The Iron Fist rule still applies.

Night All.

61 Guanxi88  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:49:07pm

re: #56 Liberally Conservative

The problem is that this girl is 17, and FotF is using her to achieve their own ends.

If she was 30, this wouldn’t be nearly as troubling. But she’s 17, and she should be with her parents or other family, not giving publicity to a charismatic Christian group as a “modern-day persecuted ex-Muslim”.

Dead-on, LibCon, dead-on:

“In short, I worry more about their politics and respect for the rule of law than I do their unorthodox prayers.”

62 Randall Gross  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:49:12pm

re: #54 jaunte

That article says that the Lorenzes waited three weeks to report Rifqa Bary’s whereabouts to police. Isn’t that legally negligent in the case of a minor runaway?

I would say so. There’s also speculation or testimony from Rifqa, not sure which, that a church member might have picked her up instead of her riding a greyhound bus.

63 Guanxi88  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:49:24pm

re: #59 avanti

Premature flounceation.

Try thinking about baseball.

64 ryannon  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:50:40pm

re: #53 AuntAcid

do you go standing up?

I reserve the right to maintain silence on that one.

65 zephirus  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:51:10pm

re: #56 Liberally Conservative

Amen to that.

66 Egregious Philbin  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:51:20pm

What is scary is that these are the same Terribots from the Schiavo nuttiness.

They are so militant in their mania that I would not be surprised if there was an armed conflict. Yes, they are using her, it has a Patty Hearst whiff to it.

67 albusteve  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:51:51pm

in a year she will be free…then look out for a marketing blitz…they will probably saint her in the end

68 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:51:57pm

re: #55 Guanxi88

Walter, if you smoked cigars, and if I had one around, I’d give it you. Dead-on: exploitation is exactly what it is. Had she been a WASP-y methodist or UU, we’d never have heard about the case at all.

And I wouldn’t take it, I stopped over a year ago, but thanks. Yes, this is evident exploitation, that’s for sure. But it should not be some sort of damning against charismatics.

The girl’s prayer is very normal for thousand and thousands of charismatic and evangelical practitioners. It is not creepy or disturbing, unless you are not use to hearing this sort of praying.

I’ve heard 6 year olds pray like this.

69 Guanxi88  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:52:08pm

re: #66 Egregious Philbin


They are so militant in their mania that I would not be surprised if there was an armed conflict. Yes, they are using her, it has a Patty Hearst whiff to it.

Patty Hearst is a good parallel, and love the nic.

70 reine.de.tout  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:52:24pm

re: #38 Guanxi88

I think we expose ourselves to a real danger by ridiculing their modes of prayer. There are many faiths with profoundly ‘enthusiastic’ practices, and few of them catch the flak that these “spiritual language’ prayers do.

I’m not a Christian, nor was I raised one, but was raised in proximity to a sect of ecstatic mystics known as “The Church of G-d with Signs and Wonders”, a/k/a “snakehandlers,” and while one can make sport of them (channeling Karl from Slingblade) doing so overlooks the profoundly interesting aspects of it.

This sort of glossolalic prayer is not unheard of, and is not necessarily a sign of whackiness. In short, I worry more about their politics and respect for the rule of law than I do their unorthodox prayers.


did you listen to it?
That “prayer” was pretty creepy, at least to my ears.
And it didn’t sound completely sane to me.
And then the guy talking when she finished, sounding as if he’s on the verge of tears. Sounded too much like a Jimmy Swaggart type (or worse) for me.

71 ryannon  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:54:28pm

re: #70 reine.de.tout

did you listen to it?
That “prayer” was pretty creepy, at least to my ears.
And it didn’t sound completely sane to me.
And then the guy talking when she finished, sounding as if he’s on the verge of tears. Sounded too much like a Jimmy Swaggart type (or worse) for me.

Amen.

72 albusteve  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:54:40pm

this girl is a goldmine…I hate to sound crass but she’s a bigtime moneymaker

73 Guanxi88  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:54:50pm

re: #68 Walter L. Newton

And I wouldn’t take it, I stopped over a year ago, but thanks. Yes, this is evident exploitation, that’s for sure. But it should not be some sort of damning against charismatics.

The girl’s prayer is very normal for thousand and thousands of charismatic and evangelical practitioners. It is not creepy or disturbing, unless you are not use to hearing this sort of praying.

I’ve heard 6 year olds pray like this.

Wasn’t sure if you still indulged, and hence the proviso. I think it’s possible to weaken the case against these folk by indulging in too-great an emphasis on the otherwise benign aspects of their version of worship. Charismatics practice a faith that, at its roots, is probably a continuation of the oldest forms of human experience and communion with Divinity; if more people treated them with half the regard they have for, say, Yanomame shamans…

74 The Shadow Do  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:56:03pm

She is the ultimate trophy on Dobson’s mantle. She will be used and used again.

75 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:56:21pm

re: #70 reine.de.tout

did you listen to it?
That “prayer” was pretty creepy, at least to my ears.
And it didn’t sound completely sane to me.
And then the guy talking when she finished, sounding as if he’s on the verge of tears. Sounded too much like a Jimmy Swaggart type (or worse) for me.

Please attend a charismatic church sometime. You will hear hundreds of people praying like this, even children. It’s not scary, just different, and you are not use to it.

At the same time, it is evident that this girl is being used and exploited by these people in this case.

76 reine.de.tout  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:56:24pm

re: #72 albusteve

this girl is a goldmine…I hate to sound crass but she’s a bigtime moneymaker

That’s how I see it.

WTF was she doing on this radio show, anyhow?

77 zephirus  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:56:44pm

re: #57 Walter L. Newton

I too belong to the congregation of the damned.

78 ryannon  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:57:17pm

re: #73 Guanxi88

Wasn’t sure if you still indulged, and hence the proviso. I think it’s possible to weaken the case against these folk by indulging in too-great an emphasis on the otherwise benign aspects of their version of worship. Charismatics practice a faith that, at its roots, is probably a continuation of the oldest forms of human experience and communion with Divinity; if more people treated them with half the regard they have for, say, Yanomame shamans…

Just a thought, but how would they treat Yanomame shamans?

There’s a major difference here.

79 albusteve  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:58:46pm

re: #76 reine.de.tout

That’s how I see it.

WTF was she doing on this radio show, anyhow?

($$$)

80 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 4:58:48pm

re: #73 Guanxi88

Wasn’t sure if you still indulged, and hence the proviso. I think it’s possible to weaken the case against these folk by indulging in too-great an emphasis on the otherwise benign aspects of their version of worship. Charismatics practice a faith that, at its roots, is probably a continuation of the oldest forms of human experience and communion with Divinity; if more people treated them with half the regard they have for, say, Yanomame shamans…

No, I never indulged, unless you mean having attended these sort of meetings (and many sorts of meetings). I am an atheist, but have practiced many different flavors of worship.

This is not unusual at all.

81 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:00:26pm

re: #80 Walter L. Newton

No, I never indulged, unless you mean having attended these sort of meetings (and many sorts of meetings). I am an atheist, but have practiced many different flavors of worship.

This is not unusual at all.

Wait, indulged as in the cigar. I get it. No, I don’t smoke anymore, but my comment above still makes sense, maybe :)

82 theheat  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:00:33pm

re: #68 Walter L. Newton

Hearing a 6 year take leave of their senses in prayer, to me, is extremely disturbing, particularly because they are only emulating behavior. The fact adults become so carried away with their prayer also disturbs me. It’s like a floor show of nuts that all caught the same disease. When dogs behave like this, they’re usually labeled rabid.

Call me old school, but I like my prayerful friends that behave quietly and sincerely when they pray, not like they’re auditioning for American Idol.

83 KingKenrod  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:01:46pm

I’ve been reading through Davi Barker’s posts on this controversy. He is a muslim blogger at examiner.com. I don’t know his reputation, but his posts seem very clear, thoughtful, open minded, and well-detailed:

[Link: www.examiner.com…]

84 Randall Gross  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:02:39pm

I was right, he sees Jesus’s return as imminent, and considers Israel as his personal Armageddon machine (since god talks to him while he’s jogging) He helps with Aliyah with one goal in mind, Perfecting the Jews. Start about 1:30 into the vid if you want to skip to the meat.

Youtube Video
85 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:03:21pm

re: #82 theheat

Hearing a 6 year take leave of their senses in prayer, to me, is extremely disturbing, particularly because they are only emulating behavior. The fact adults become so carried away with their prayer also disturbs me. It’s like a floor show of nuts that all caught the same disease. When dogs behave like this, they’re usually labeled rabid.

Call me old school, but I like my prayerful friends that behave quietly and sincerely when they pray, not like they’re auditioning for American Idol.

Er, this sort of praying is old school, and you can trace it back, in Christianity to the 1st century church, and in many cultures to many rituals.

This is human nature, not rabies. For a matter of fact, would you say the same thing about many of the current world religions that have aesthetic praying as part of their ceremonies?

86 Ojoe  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:04:19pm

re: #85 Walter L. Newton

Very unseemly to do it in public, I think.

87 zephirus  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:04:41pm

re: #82 theheat

One wonders about the neurochemistry of it all.

88 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:05:09pm

re: #86 Ojoe

Very unseemly to do it in public, I think.

What is?

89 albusteve  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:05:25pm

re: #80 Walter L. Newton

No, I never indulged, unless you mean having attended these sort of meetings (and many sorts of meetings). I am an atheist, but have practiced many different flavors of worship.

This is not unusual at all.

Jamaica…I’ve seen the laying on and the healing…an intense fervor, lots of babbling and writhing around and generally incoherent appeals for salvation…hundreds of devout people, chanting and dancing and expressing extreme emotion…outside of Ocho Rios…a big tent healapalooza and it really freaked me out…the intensity of the whole scene was down right scary

90 theheat  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:05:25pm

re: #85 Walter L. Newton

would you say the same thing about many of the current world religions that have aesthetic praying as part of their ceremonies?


Absolutely, when it’s as howling and insane as this.

91 Guanxi88  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:06:02pm

re: #70 reine.de.tout

did you listen to it?
That “prayer” was pretty creepy, at least to my ears.
And it didn’t sound completely sane to me.
And then the guy talking when she finished, sounding as if he’s on the verge of tears. Sounded too much like a Jimmy Swaggart type (or worse) for me.

It’s creepy to those who’ve not been exposed to it. These are outpourings from the heart, pure effusions of wonder at contact with the Divine - of course it sounds crazy: the mind cannot long endure contact or communion with Divinity without some sort of alteration in behavior. Dervishes can twirl and dance for hours; shamans of any and all traditions can babble and see visions, and we regard it as interesting or beautiful or even something appealing. Let our neighbors do such a thing though, and it’s barbaric and benighted.

92 zephirus  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:06:10pm

re: #86 Ojoe

That’s the point…they go into some kind of borg-like, collective mode.

93 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:06:15pm

re: #4 ryannon

“Our little sister’s on the line…”

Oh my.

sigh.

I’m far from being a trained mental health professional, but I hear a lot of sexual sexual hysteria in her voice…

The rest sounds like an exorcism…

“We have a little sister, and she hath no breasts: what shall we do for our sister in the day when she shall be spoken for? If she be a wall, we will build upon her a palace of silver: and if she be a door, we will inclose her with boards of cedar.”

Apropos of nothing, except to say that I wish this little girl was in the hands of people who would not use her for their own ends.

94 Right Brain  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:06:43pm

re: #78 ryannon

Just a thought, but how would they treat Yanomame shamans?

There’s a major difference here.

Well you would treat Yanomami shamans with great wariness; scholars auditing Margaret Meads fabrications found that roughly 25% of the Yanomami males died by murder.

95 Guanxi88  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:07:57pm

re: #78 ryannon

Just a thought, but how would they treat Yanomame shamans?

There’s a major difference here.

Don’t deny a difference at all: They’d try to convert that Yanomame, who would simply slay them where they stand, as interlopers.

96 Right Brain  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:08:03pm

re: #36 funky chicken

I still have a nagging feeling about this girl. It seems she has a history of odd behavior and difficulty telling the truth. I kinda hope she’s playing these people for fools and hasn’t been indoctrinated into a cult.

Just a young girl trying to establish an identity separate from her parents. In a few months she will be off this and onto buying tattoos.

97 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:08:16pm

re: #90 theheat

Absolutely, when it’s as howling and insane as this.

Well then, at least you are honest.

Guess what? There are thousands and thousand of people in this country, and the world over, who pray like this every day.

Just because you know nothing of it, or because you would not do it, or because you deem something wrong about it, that doesn’t change a thing or make it dangerous or creepy.

It only makes it something that you would not participate in.

98 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:08:48pm

re: #89 albusteve

Jamaica…I’ve seen the laying on and the healing…an intense fervor, lots of babbling and writhing around and generally incoherent appeals for salvation…hundreds of devout people, chanting and dancing and expressing extreme emotion…outside of Ocho Rios…a big tent healapalooza and it really freaked me out…the intensity of the whole scene was down right scary

Fraidy Cat!

99 theheat  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:10:49pm

re: #97 Walter L. Newton

I’d venture to say the behavior is delusional, and viewed creepy by a majority. In other words, more people would agree with me than not.

So, they can continue with their creepy prayers as guaranteed by their right to practice whatever religion. And I can think it’s creepy. And I’m not alone.

100 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:10:49pm

re: #91 Guanxi88

It’s creepy to those who’ve not been exposed to it. These are outpourings from the heart, pure effusions of wonder at contact with the Divine - of course it sounds crazy: the mind cannot long endure contact or communion with Divinity without some sort of alteration in behavior. Dervishes can twirl and dance for hours; shamans of any and all traditions can babble and see visions, and we regard it as interesting or beautiful or even something appealing. Let our neighbors do such a thing though, and it’s barbaric and benighted.

Notice how the embracing of culture goes right out the window when someone doesn’t understand something, or refuses to simply let it be. Sort of the same thing like the missionaries forcing religion down the throats of other cultures.

Sick.

101 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:11:21pm

re: #99 theheat

I’d venture to say the behavior is delusional, and viewed creepy by a majority. In other words, more people would agree with me than not.

So, they can continue with their creepy prayers as guaranteed by their right to practice whatever religion. And I can think it’s creepy. And I’m not alone.

I said you are honest. Wrong, but honest. Congratulations.

102 ryannon  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:12:16pm

re: #85 Walter L. Newton

Er, this sort of praying is old school, and you can trace it back, in Christianity to the 1st century church, and in many cultures to many rituals.

This is human nature, not rabies. For a matter of fact, would you say the same thing about many of the current world religions that have aesthetic praying as part of their ceremonies?

Walter, like you, I’ve witnessed a very large range of devotional practices, both in out of the United States.

Personally, and this is just my subjective reaction of course, I would not dignify this particular manifestation as belonging to the same class of authentic, spontaneous manifestations of faith or religious fervor that you’re alluding to. To my ears, it rings hollow, contrived and at best, hysterical in the worst sense of the word. For me, there is nothing religious about it.

103 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:12:16pm

re: #58 albusteve

there is no question she has been exploited…so now what?…my guess is she becomes the next evangelical superstar

She’ll go on the circuit, I suppose, testifying or whatnot.

She will probably never have a close relationship with her family again. And that’s a pity. Enough people really have to give up their parents to be who they are, and in this case, I don’t think it had to happen.

104 poteen  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:13:39pm

re: #24 Walter L. Newton

Most “religion” has always been “us versus them” or haven’t you noticed? You know, we don’t eat pork because we are not like them. You are not a true Christian if you don’t believe in the Trinity.

Is this all new to you?


I am not religious and have the same particular dislike of specific evangelical or fundamental sects of any religion, however “us versus them” hardly applies to the Salvation Army or St. Vincent de Paul, nor any Catholic parish or Jewish Chabad with food and shelter programs. They are administered without regard for religious or social status.
Most “religion” may be an overly broad term.
// I have no personal knowledge but I think the Lutherans, Methodists and maybe even the Presbyterians do it too.//

105 albusteve  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:13:57pm

re: #98 Walter L. Newton

Fraidy Cat!

bullshit…I waded through the crowd and took pictures until they assaulted me with banana knives and took my camera…I paid body guards…me and my wife were deep into the throb and being the ONLY white people there highly suspicious…the shaman/priest was so spent they hauled him off in a pick up truck while others comforted the saved/not saved…it broke up in a haze of ganja and rum…one of the most bizarre experiences I’ve ever had

106 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:14:47pm

re: #1 LudwigVanQuixote


Isn’t it obvious the evil propaganda elements at play here…
[…]
2. Muslims are evil, of course all of them would kill their kids if they transgressed the faith. (this also belittles the real cases of this).

An important point which I refuse to forget, whatever happens in Rifqa’s case.

107 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:15:08pm

The parenthetical bit, I mean.

108 Interested and concerned CDN  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:15:29pm

I have great concern for this girl…Spirituality is many things…but it certainly should not have a bureaucracy applied to it, which, imho, is where religion enters… and the route to corrupted power and evil begins…

109 albusteve  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:15:42pm

re: #103 SanFranciscoZionist

She’ll go on the circuit, I suppose, testifying or whatnot.

She will probably never have a close relationship with her family again. And that’s a pity. Enough people really have to give up their parents to be who they are, and in this case, I don’t think it had to happen.

whatever…I’m sorta cold natured about that stuff…it is what it is

110 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:16:02pm

re: #102 ryannon

Walter, like you, I’ve witnessed a very large range of devotional practices, both in out of the United States.

Personally, and this is just my subjective reaction of course, I would not dignify this particular manifestation as belonging to the same class of authentic, spontaneous manifestations of faith or religious fervor that you’re alluding to. To my ears, it rings hollow, contrived and at best, hysterical in the worst sense of the word. For me, there is nothing religious about it.

Understood. We are saying sort of the same thing, but coming from a different direction. I think ALL OF IT IS HOLLOW AND CONTRIVED, including this girl.

I been there, done that, studied it, and I could easily go into the group dynamics and self-motivated psychology that brings this about, but than I would probably be stepping on your deep felt convictions.

111 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:16:06pm

re: #96 Right Brain

Just a young girl trying to establish an identity separate from her parents. In a few months she will be off this and onto buying tattoos.

Doubt it. She’s going to find it very hard to back away from these people. Can you imagine the rush of being told you’re a prophet come to save your people? Tattooing has nothing on it.

112 funky chicken  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:17:24pm

re: #58 albusteve

there is no question she has been exploited…so now what?…my guess is she becomes the next evangelical superstar

And with her background, that may have been a bit of a plan she had all along? It seems like she has a history of odd behavior also. I really feel for her parents, and hope she snaps out of it, for their sakes.

113 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:17:43pm

re: #19 zephirus

Yes…the “us vs them” psychology is dangerous, deep and very dark.

Someone tell the jihadists that.

114 ryannon  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:17:49pm

re: #110 Walter L. Newton

Understood. We are saying sort of the same thing, but coming from a different direction. I think ALL OF IT IS HOLLOW AND CONTRIVED, including this girl.

I been there, done that, studied it, and I could easily go into the group dynamics and self-motivated psychology that brings this about, but than I would probably be stepping on your deep felt convictions.

My only conviction is that the Gaza seagull was a cat, Walter.

But you already know that.

115 Dianna  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:18:01pm

What on earth?

That was just weird.

Is that girl under psychiatric care? Or is she just an hysteric? What was she doing on that call? Who authorized this?

What is going on here?

116 Danny  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:18:07pm

The kid needs professional help. Pronto.

117 wee fury  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:18:12pm

The voices on the video creep me out.

118 albusteve  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:18:32pm

re: #112 funky chicken

And with her background, that may have been a bit of a plan she had all along? It seems like she has a history of odd behavior also. I really feel for her parents, and hope she snaps out of it, for their sakes.

OTOH maybe her parents do want to kill her…nobody knows but them

119 zephirus  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:18:34pm

re: #97 Walter L. Newton

They can commune with their god however they wish, but when they become a mob, abandon all reason, and become convinced that their beliefs trump all others - then we have a problem.

120 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:18:40pm

re: #113 The Sanity Inspector

Someone tell the jihadists that.

I’d rather not get close enough, if it’s all the same to you.

121 Ojoe  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:19:21pm

re: #88 Walter L. Newton

Weirded-out ranting tranced praying.

122 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:19:38pm

re: #118 albusteve

OTOH maybe her parents do want to kill her…nobody knows but them

Maybe my husband is planning to kill me after I finish cooking dinner.

Nobody knows but him.

But I’ve made it almost ten years…

123 zephirus  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:19:55pm

re: #102 ryannon

Well said.

124 theheat  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:20:14pm

re: #122 SanFranciscoZionist

You’re probably a good cook. I don’t have that security.

125 Dianna  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:20:21pm

re: #121 Ojoe

Weirded-out ranting tranced praying.

I encountered that on “Maranatha Night” at Knott’s Berry Farm around 1980.

126 albusteve  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:20:36pm

re: #116 Danny

The kid needs professional help. Pronto.

so do I, but it ain’t gonna happen…the professionals who pay attention to me do not care about my wellbeing…hahaha!

127 SixDegrees  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:20:38pm

re: #96 Right Brain

Just a young girl trying to establish an identity separate from her parents. In a few months she will be off this and onto buying tattoos.

Or, she’ll find herself living under a narrow-minded, oppressive religious zealot who may do her grievous harm while acting out his bizarre ideological depravities on her.

And I’m not talking about her father.

128 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:20:40pm

re: #124 theheat

You’re probably a good cook. I don’t have that security.

Bean soup and cornbread tonight!

129 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:20:41pm

re: #105 albusteve

bullshit…I waded through the crowd and took pictures until they assaulted me with banana knives and took my camera…I paid body guards…me and my wife were deep into the throb and being the ONLY white people there highly suspicious…the shaman/priest was so spent they hauled him off in a pick up truck while others comforted the saved/not saved…it broke up in a haze of ganja and rum…one of the most bizarre experiences I’ve ever had

Steve, you’re talking to me… actually that sounded in the least exciting.

I’ve seen something similar, a real Sundance, six days of it, complete with all the flesh tearing and blood letting, including myself.

Only difference, I was one of the only white guys, but I was invited by one of the families, and was welcome (well, after a few days, some other families had to wait to see how I was reacting to the whole thing before they passed me the pipe).

130 Ojoe  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:21:07pm

re: #92 zephirus

I’ll take Gregorian chant in a stone monastery instead please.

131 albusteve  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:21:25pm

re: #122 SanFranciscoZionist

Maybe my husband is planning to kill me after I finish cooking dinner.

Nobody knows but him.

But I’ve made it almost ten years…

you must be a good cook!

132 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:22:07pm

re: #129 Walter L. Newton

Steve, you’re talking to me… actually that sounded in the least exciting.

I’ve seen something similar, a real Sundance, six days of it, complete with all the flesh tearing and blood letting, including myself.

Only difference, I was one of the only white guys, but I was invited by one of the families, and was welcome (well, after a few days, some other families had to wait to see how I was reacting to the whole thing before they passed me the pipe).

I am a little more impressed with you now, Ugarti.

133 ryannon  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:22:33pm

re: #115 Dianna

What on earth?

That was just weird.

Is that girl under psychiatric care? Or is she just an hysteric? What was she doing on that call? Who authorized this?

What is going on here?

A crisis of repressed adolescent sexuality disguised as religious fervor by a very confused young girl.

134 funky chicken  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:22:41pm

re: #118 albusteve

OTOH maybe her parents do want to kill her…nobody knows but them

highly unlikely. I read somewhere that she is/was a cheerleader and that her parents supported that. not really fundamentalist-sounding folks.

135 poteen  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:23:01pm

re: #125 Dianna

I encountered that on “Maranatha Night” at Knott’s Berry Farm around 1980.

All you’ll encounter now are gang bangers in the pk lot.

136 Randall Gross  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:23:09pm

Definitely weird, see Here and Here

137 zephirus  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:23:50pm

re: #130 Ojoe

Ah…that stuff almost makes a believer out of me.

138 albusteve  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:23:55pm

re: #129 Walter L. Newton

Steve, you’re talking to me… actually that sounded in the least exciting.

I’ve seen something similar, a real Sundance, six days of it, complete with all the flesh tearing and blood letting, including myself.

Only difference, I was one of the only white guys, but I was invited by one of the families, and was welcome (well, after a few days, some other families had to wait to see how I was reacting to the whole thing before they passed me the pipe).

you’re lucky…pipes, ahh yes

139 Dianna  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:24:21pm

re: #133 ryannon

A crisis of repressed adolescent sexuality disguised as religious fervor by a very confused young girl.

I do wonder about that.

140 Velvet Elvis  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:24:47pm

I’ve always thought it would be better if all children were raised devoid of any religious influence or teachings by third parties whatsoever. If they are interested, they can seek it out on their own after they turn 18.

141 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:25:22pm

re: #130 Ojoe

I’ll take Gregorian chant in a stone monastery instead please.

Nice stuff. Too bad you don’t extend that understanding to other people. Maybe the stone explains it.

142 Ojoe  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:25:26pm

re: #138 albusteve

Pipes

143 ryannon  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:26:54pm

re: #139 Dianna

I do wonder about that.

I’m also wondering what Mandy’s fine-tuned ear would pick up…

144 albusteve  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:27:29pm

re: #142 Ojoe

Pipes

my last wedding song…(sniff)

145 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:28:03pm

re: #59 avanti

Premature flounceation.

Try to think of baseball.

146 Dianna  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:28:55pm

re: #145 The Sanity Inspector

Try to think of baseball.

Batter up!

147 albusteve  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:29:40pm

re: #146 Dianna

Batter up!

squeeze play!

148 TheRealThing  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:30:13pm

Well, just do not know what to say. We deal with lots of assorted different people. Our family has members who moved to deep south east Texas just before and after the civil war. They are long time members of odd little Pentecostal Churches down there, as a child when required to visit aunts and uncles and attend church I came home and pleaded with my parents to never ever ask me to do that again.

149 Dianna  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:30:19pm

re: #147 albusteve

squeeze play!

Line drive to center!

150 Ojoe  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:30:59pm

re: #144 albusteve

I’ll take the religion that produced that song.

151 Dianna  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:32:25pm

re: #148 TheRealThing

Well, just do not know what to say. We deal with lots of assorted different people. Our family has members who moved to deep south east Texas just before and after the civil war. They are long time members of odd little Pentecostal Churches down there, as a child when required to visit aunts and uncles and attend church I came home and pleaded with my parents to never ever ask me to do that again.

My grandmother once told me that, when she and my grandfather moved back to Texas after they got married, on summer Sunday mornings, they would park outside the holy roller church - which would have its doors open - and watch the service. Finally, my grandmother became ashamed of herself and insisted they stop.

152 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:32:58pm

re: #142 Ojoe

Pipes

up-ding.

(massed pipes & bands … I’ll betcha it’s from a Tattoo)

153 albusteve  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:37:53pm

re: #149 Dianna

Line drive to center!

foul balls!

154 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:39:37pm

Let us not even ask what James “Depends” Dobson would propose if she were to turn out to be a “strong-willed child” (SWC).

We don’t need to ask, because he tells us:

“Q: How long do you think a child should be allowed to cry after being punished or spanked? Is there a limit?

A: Yes, I believe there should be a limit. As long as the tears represent a genuine release of emotion, they should be permitted to fall. But crying can quickly change from inner sobbing to an expression of protest aimed at punishing the enemy. Real crying usually lasts two minutes or less but may continue for five. After that point, the child is merely complaining, and the change can be recognized in the tone and intensity of his voice. I would require him to stop the protest crying, usually by offering him a little more of whatever caused the original tears.”

155 Dianna  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:42:35pm

re: #153 albusteve

foul balls!

Pop-up flies!

(I think we should stop here)

156 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:46:14pm

re: #155 Dianna

Pop-up flies!

(I think we should stop here)

Yes, you have grounded out enough.

157 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 5:55:59pm

Actually I do not agree that 13 is “too young” to come to some kind of decision about religion or other major life decisions.

I came to major life decisions younger than that.

But some of them, I changed.

This girl is being used.

158 ryannon  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 6:03:56pm

re: #157 Cato the Elder

Actually I do not agree that 13 is “too young” to come to some kind of decision about religion or other major life decisions.

I came to major life decisions younger than that.

But some of them, I changed.

This girl is being used.

In this case, I think it’s reciprocal. Both consciously and unconsciously and each to his/her own ends.

159 ryannon  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 6:06:56pm

re: #158 ryannon

In this case, I think it’s reciprocal. Both consciously and unconsciously and each to his/her own ends.

Which is why - and unlike Walter - I would not grace this nasty little charade with the appellation of being an authentic manifestation of religious fervor.

160 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 6:10:37pm

re: #157 Cato the Elder

Actually I do not agree that 13 is “too young” to come to some kind of decision about religion or other major life decisions.

I came to major life decisions younger than that.

But some of them, I changed.

This girl is being used.

Of course, only if it’s “your kind of religion.”

161 ryannon  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 6:25:11pm

re: #160 Walter L. Newton

Of course, only if it’s “your kind of religion.”

Youtube Video
162 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 6:27:44pm

It’s like she’s traded one cult for another. I don’t see this as an “upgrade” in religious belief.

FotF & FRC are using her, of course, for their own ends, of course.

163 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 6:33:45pm

re: #162 eclectic infidel

It’s like she’s traded one cult for another. I don’t see this as an “upgrade” in religious belief.

FotF & FRC are using her, of course, for their own ends, of course.

I did not mean to be so redundant with the phrasing. I apologize.

164 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 6:50:58pm

re: #160 Walter L. Newton

Of course, only if it’s “your kind of religion.”

As a parent, I would not let my kid get involved with this group. Because they are nuts.

If my child wanted to become a Christian, I would be very distressed, but would let them explore the possibilities. At a church where they don’t kidnap other people’s children, or tell young converts that God has chosen them to lead their people out of darkness.

165 Irish Rose  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 7:43:36pm

re: #11 Walter L. Newton

Creepy sounding or not, this is standard charismatic praying, which can be found in many fundamentalist meetings any day of the week. This sort of babbling goes on all the time, and is the standard pattern for aesthetic, spirit-filled prayer.

On the flip side, she is being used by these people, which is evident by the set ups in the questions and comments being made to her and about her.

Walter nails it.

I lived in the evangelical community for over 30 years and I’ve been to dozens of charismatic services where speaking in tongues, spontaneous healing and “spirit-filled prayer” like this is the norm.

The children in these congregations are able to mimic the adults around them at a very early age to fit into the church community… I’ve seen children as young as 3 or 4 praying like this.

She is absolutely being used, and it’s imperative that the DCF step in and do an investigation. The people who are exploiting this young girl for their own self-serving agenda need to be exposed, and held accountable.

166 dugmartsch  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 7:59:42pm

re: #47 Walter L. Newton

Totally uncreepy that a 17 year old girl that’s running away from her parents to join a cult is welcomed as some sort of rational agent to pray with and draw inspiration from.

Totally sane normal everyday behavior.

167 [deleted]  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 8:01:19pm
168 [deleted]  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 8:19:33pm
169 eff  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 9:41:21pm

whoa, didn’t see that one coming.

170 borgcube  Wed, Sep 30, 2009 11:04:50pm

Forced at gunpoint I’d choose to dance with snakes and roll around on the ground mumbling gibberish before I’d walk counterclockwise around the Kaaba babbling gobbledygook to a meteorite.

It’s not even close.

171 slouchingpoet  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 6:28:09am

Holy crap. Poor kid. Out of the frying pan and into the fire.

172 mph  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 6:58:49am

Mr. Show - The Hail Satan Network

Youtube Video

…featuring Tom Kenny (voice of Sponge Bob).

173 noahsatellite  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 7:04:53am

Didn’t see that one coming; it’s like someone just flicked on a switch and she starts yelling and talking in tongues.

I’m neither Christian nor Muslim but I still find it somewhat offensive that she’s asked to pray for all Muslims so that they can find Jesus.

174 mph  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 7:07:42am

re: #173 noahsatellite

I’m neither Christian nor Muslim but I still find it somewhat offensive that she’s asked to pray for all Muslims so that they can find Jesus.

It is as offensive (if you choose to be offended, that is) as when someone says says to you “Jesus loves you.” Just the statement itself implies classism. But whatever — so be it.

175 rabbiyoni  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 8:13:54am

“Use her, God, to be an Esther?” an Esther? I don’t think he understands the story as well as he thinks he does. Anyway, he probably didn’t read it in Hebrew. :)
Wow, a group ecstatic religious orgy centered on a teenage girl. Stay classy, religious right! Reminds me of the scene in “300”. Ew.

176 martinsmithy  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 8:33:27am

I decided to play the “Tim Blair” game (see next post) and, using the “apostasy” tag to go back to at least 2006, look at the posts Charles had made on the subject.

Most of the early posts have to do with the notorious case in Afghanistan. They involved a situation where various Afghanis were actually calling for the death of the convert involved.

Also several posts about Salman Rushdie appear in this category. No question that Muslims were bad actors in that case.

In contrast, no one except someone who is willing to paint Muslims with such a broad brush as to claim every single one of the one billion Muslims on the planet would automatically kill a convert, even if their own daughter, can find any evidence that this girl’s parents have or will try to kill her. Unfortunately, as we know, people like Robert Spencer and Pam Geller are such “someones”.

And the whole Focus on the Family angle with this story makes it look like a setup.

So I don’t see any inconsistency between Charles’ position on previous apostasy stories and Charles’ position on this one.

177 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 9:44:26am

re: #175 rabbiyoni

“Use her, God, to be an Esther?” an Esther? I don’t think he understands the story as well as he thinks he does. Anyway, he probably didn’t read it in Hebrew. :)
Wow, a group ecstatic religious orgy centered on a teenage girl. Stay classy, religious right! Reminds me of the scene in “300”. Ew.

re: #175 rabbiyoni

Some of the other Tribe members had a similar response to that. Nice to see you.

178 Richie  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 11:26:38am

Sounds like she’s gearing up for a career as a preacher.

179 elclynn  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 2:19:49pm

This is the kind of religion that has always made me nervous. It unnerved me as a youngster and still does. I honestly don’t understand it. I don’t even want to try. Sort of reminds me of the snakehandlers.

180 ronsfi  Thu, Oct 1, 2009 5:45:48pm

Wow! That sounds like the sound track to The Excorcist. Insane cultist lunacy. They’re all about the family. Except Muslim families of course.

181 jumbalia  Fri, Oct 2, 2009 4:43:34pm

I think we should leave them alone and not micro analyse how other people pray.


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