Swiss Vote to Ban Minarets

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Switzerland, the country that let everyone else in Europe do their fighting for them in World War II and turned Jews over to the Nazis to save their own skins, has now banned minarets.

Swiss voters have supported a referendum proposal to ban the building of minarets, official results show.

More than 57% of voters and 22 out of 26 cantons - or provinces - voted in favour of the ban.
The proposal had been put forward by the Swiss People’s Party, (SVP), the largest party in parliament, which says minarets are a sign of Islamisation.

The government opposed the ban, saying it would harm Switzerland’s image, particularly in the Muslim world.

The BBC’s Imogen Foulkes, in Bern, says the surprise result is very bad news for the Swiss government which also fears unrest among the Muslim community.

Our correspondent says voters worried about rising immigration - and with it the rise of Islam - have ignored the government’s advice.

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462 comments
1 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:25:49am

Dangerous precedent I'd say.

2 Athens Runaway  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:26:57am

I wonder how much of this move was due to NIMBYism and the green movement's emphasis on "preserving viewscapes."

3 Varek Raith  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:28:34am

re: #2 Athens Runaway

I wonder how much of this move was due to NIMBYism and the green movement's emphasis on "preserving viewscapes."

Very little, I'd wager.

4 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:28:41am

I don't think we've seen the last of blood and soil politics in europe play out yet. We will see more of this, as xenophobia continues to rise throughout Europe.

5 J.S.  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:28:41am

Tolerance -- European style.

6 Athens Runaway  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:30:18am

re: #3 Varek Raith

Very little, I'd wager.

Yeah, probably. That was the first thought that popped into my head though.

Wasn't there someone on LGF last night saying that Europe was more tolerant of minority religions than the US? I wonder how he feels about this.

7 gman  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:30:55am

I wonder if the thinking behind this is as simple as
"Minarets don't clash with swiss cottages"

8 jhrhv  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:31:51am

re: #6 Athens Runaway

People the world over are always saying how Americans are arrogant, xenophobic and ignorant. Guess none of them have ever been to or read the history of Europe.

9 J.S.  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:33:39am

re: #7 gman

ah, I don't think so. The anti-minaret campaigners were equating Islam with terrorists and extremism. It was based on playing-up Swiss xenophobia. (although, I believe there are obviously going to be legal challenges to this -- I don't see these types of laws lasting for very long -- it'll be overturned in the courts.)

10 gman  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:36:44am

re: #9 J.S.

ah, I don't think so. The anti-minaret campaigners were equating Islam with terrorists and extremism. It was based on playing-up Swiss xenophobia. (although, I believe there are obviously going to be legal challenges to this -- I don't see these types of laws lasting for very long -- it'll be overturned in the courts.)

Pretty scary. A majority of voters are behind this ban.

11 Racer X  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:38:07am

I'm wondering why they chose to ban minarets? Is it because of the noise from the call to prayers? If it is truly religious intolerance they would ban mosques, no?

12 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:38:17am
Switzerland is home to some 400,000 Muslims and has just four minarets.

After Christianity, Islam is the most widespread religion in Switzerland, but it remains relatively hidden.

Interesting. I wonder how the law is written. Could they build a minaret if it looked like a church tower? Could they put one up if it was really small? 6 feet? 2 feet? an inch?

13 aristopheles  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:38:42am

I remember telling my friends back around 2002 that the European political mainstream could either confront and deal with the problem of Islamism in Europe, or they could expect to see the resurgence of the fascists, who would be glad to propose solutions. I feel, by this date, that my point has been amply demonstrated by history, and not in the way I would have preferred.

Charles, I gather from your phrasing that you do not approve. Fair enough. You also carry a fair bit of weight as an observer and analyst. Have you written anything lately about your own proposed solutions to the problems of Islamic supremacist philosophy and practice in Europe?

14 Racer X  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:39:00am
The BBC's Imogen Foulkes, in Bern, says the surprise result is very bad news for the Swiss government which also fears unrest among the Muslim community.

This ban will fuel the fires for sure.

15 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:39:48am

re: #11 Racer X

Is it because of the noise from the call to prayers?


I don't think so. In most Western countries they aren't allowed to call prayers from the towers due to noise regulations.

16 J.S.  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:40:48am

re: #11 Racer X

I believe it's because the anti-minaret faction convinced people that the minarets were being built (taller than church steeples) so as to show/demonstrate that Islam was "dominant" over other religions or symbolic of Islamic triumphalism, etc.

17 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:41:58am

re: #13 aristopheles

Have you written anything lately about your own proposed solutions to the problems of Islamic supremacist philosophy and practice in Europe?


Architectural restrictions and building codes are going to do nothing to stop religious extremism.

18 filbert23  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:42:06am

I feel this is a good thing...the extreme Muslims (I call them Isla-maniacs) have so tarnished the REAL Muslims that people are starting to 'fight back'. If the real Muslims finally get fed up with being treated as pariahs, through not fault of their own, perhaps they will push away from the extremists. One can hope...

19 J.S.  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:42:26am

re: #12 Killgore Trout

The anti-minaret faction was also claiming that the minarets were symbolic of swords.. or spears (?)

20 Athens Runaway  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:43:36am

re: #19 J.S.

The anti-minaret faction was also claiming that the minarets were symbolic of swords.. or spears (?)

No, obviously they are phallic symbols of man's dominance over woman.

/femi-Nazi?

21 Racer X  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:44:08am

re: #18 filbert23

I feel this is a good thing...the extreme Muslims (I call them Isla-maniacs) have so tarnished the REAL Muslims that people are starting to 'fight back'. If the real Muslims finally get fed up with being treated as pariahs, through not fault of their own, perhaps they will push away from the extremists. One can hope...

I disagree. This will cause more moderate muslims to feel threatened, and perhaps turn a blind eye to the radical factions.

22 SixDegrees  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:44:09am

Will they also be banning cross-bearing spires?

23 S'latch  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:44:31am

Such a ban would be unconstitutional in the United States. I am a little surprised that it would be permissible in Switzerland.

24 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:45:14am

Good.

25 gman  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:45:40am

re: #9 J.S.

Yeah, I was just thinking about a trip I took to Switzerland. Everything was as idyllic and perfect as a post card. There's a reason for that. No matter how "progressive" and "open" the government might project itself, things are very rigid and regulated behind the scenes.

26 J.S.  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:46:20am

re: #20 Athens Runaway

(if that were the case, the Swiss probably wouldn't have had a problem...just joking...although, when were women allowed to vote in certain cantons, eh? The Swiss, btw, also eat cats..)

27 SixDegrees  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:47:14am

Are Swiss Army Knives a sign of Christianization?

28 countrockulot  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:47:29am

This is why the U.S. Constitution guarantees the civil rights of all citizens. Fundamental freedoms have no place being decided by popular vote. Religious expression; the rights to vote, to an eduction, to marry the person of your choice: these are not rights the majority should have the ability to take away from a minority. These are basic human rights that should be guaranteed to all and unaffected by the whims of popular sentiment.

29 Racer X  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:47:35am

re: #25 gman

Yeah, I was just thinking about a trip I took to Switzerland. Everything was as idyllic and perfect as a post card. There's a reason for that. No matter how "progressive" and "open" the government might project itself, things are very rigid and regulated behind the scenes.

Perhaps the Swiss people are concerned about losing their country's unique identity?

30 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:47:54am

Maybe the Swiss will reconsider when the Saudis allow church spires.

There's this little thing called reciprocity which the West seems to have forgotten all about.

I shall make sure to spend some time and money in Switzerland on my next trip to Europe.

31 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:48:40am

re: #29 Racer X

Perhaps the Swiss people are concerned about losing their country's unique identity?

Tourism= money.

32 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:48:49am

Nothing like letting the state determine what religious symbolism is allowed within the nation. It reminds me of The Soviet Union, China, North Korea, and other totalitarian states.

33 SixDegrees  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:49:16am

re: #30 Cato the Elder

Maybe the Swiss will reconsider when the Saudis allow church spires.

There's this little thing called reciprocity which the West seems to have forgotten all about.

I shall make sure to spend some time and money in Switzerland on my next trip to Europe.

While you're gone, we're going to rename "Swiss Chard" as "Freedom Greens".

34 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:49:20am

No to minarets, but yes to Dinnerjacket?

35 Cineaste  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:49:36am

I'm backing a ban on Cuckoo Clocks and toblerone - who's in?

36 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:50:28am

The Swiss we now know, lack the sense to mentally separate the violent from the law abiding Muslim.

They can shelter Roman Polanski but not build a minaret? WTF?!

37 aristopheles  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:50:40am

Killgore -

Describing confrontation of an abstract problem by practical means may make it look silly, but it in no way proves your point. For instance, my having to take off my shoes at the airport is going to do nothing to stop religious extremism either, but it will improve the odds of keeping me from sticking bombs in my shoes because of any religious extremism I might have. Now the question at hand is, does the minaret ban provide any good vis-a-vis extremists, and if so, is it accomplished at a reasonable price relative to agreed-upon political and religious liberties. Charles seems to answer "No," which I am willing to entertain as a fair conclusion. I'm not even requesting that he explain his conclusion; I think I understand. My curiosity is in regard to this point: given that I think we can all acknowledge that a problem exists - what does he think should be done?

38 Cineaste  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:50:40am

ps: not sure why I capitalized cuckoo clocks but not Toblerone in that last post... PIMF

39 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:50:51am

re: #35 Cineaste

I'm backing a ban on Cuckoo Clocks and toblerone - who's in?

For every Toblerone bar you don't buy, I'll buy six.

40 S'latch  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:50:55am

If the voters are worried about rising immigration, I wonder why they don't deal with it directly. Maybe it is easier in Switzerland to ban minarets than control immigration.

41 Boogberg  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:50:59am

re: #28 countrockulot

This is why the U.S. Constitution guarantees the civil rights of all citizens. Fundamental freedoms have no place being decided by popular vote. Religious expression; the rights to vote, to an eduction, to marry the person of your choice: these are not rights the majority should have the ability to take away from a minority. These are basic human rights that should be guaranteed to all and unaffected by the whims of popular sentiment.

Yeah. It would be nice if majority Muslim countries felt the same way.

42 SixDegrees  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:51:46am

re: #36 Rightwingconspirator

The Swiss we now know, lack the sense to mentally separate the violent from the law abiding Muslim.

They can shelter Roman Polanski but not build a minaret? WTF?!

Well, they're not exactly sheltering Polanski. It's because of the Swiss that he was finally apprehended.

43 Cineaste  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:51:47am

re: #39 Cato the Elder

For every Toblerone bar you don't buy, I'll buy six.

Damn you Cato, why do you hate freedom?

:)

44 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:51:48am

re: #36 Rightwingconspirator

The Swiss we now know, lack the sense to mentally separate the violent from the law abiding Muslim.

They can shelter Roman Polanski but not build a minaret? WTF?!

They can shelter criminals with their banking system, but let's be sure to limit religious freedoms.

45 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:52:20am

re: #36 Rightwingconspirator

The Swiss we now know, lack the sense to mentally separate the violent from the law abiding Muslim.

They can shelter Roman Polanski but not build a minaret? WTF?!

Polanski was arrested in Switzerland. The ones who sheltered him were the French.

Just like they shelter radical Islam. Just like they sheltered, aided, abetted and subsidized Khomeini.

Again I say, good on the Swiss!

46 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:53:06am

re: #45 Cato the Elder

Polanski was arrested in Switzerland. The ones who sheltered him were the French.

Just like they shelter radical Islam. Just like they sheltered, aided, abetted and subsidized Khomeini.

Again I say, good on the Swiss!

Heh.

Vdare agrees with you.

47 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:53:22am

re: #42 SixDegrees

Read about the Chalet (house )arrest? He is still there rather than here. Or refer to Sharmuta's point, she made a better point than I did anyway.

48 Racer X  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:54:36am

Iran announces plans for 10 new uranium enrichment plants

TEHRAN -- Iran's government will build 10 new sites to enrich uranium, President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said Sunday, a dramatic expansion of the country's nuclear program and one that is bound to fuel fears that it is attempting to produce a nuclear weapon.

Ahmadinejad told state news agency IRNA that construction of at least five nuclear facilities was to begin within two months.

The announcement comes just days after a censure of Iran by the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) over the Islamic republic's refusal to stop enriching uranium, a key demand of Western powers. The 35-member board of the agency also criticized Iran's construction of a second enrichment plant in Qom, southwest of Tehran.

Iran has insisted that its nuclear program is designed for energy production and denies it is seeking to build a nuclear bomb. Ahmadinejad said Sunday that his country's need for energy would grow dramatically over the next 15 years.

"We annually must produce between 250 to 300 tons of nuclear fuel," he said.

49 S'latch  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:54:46am

Even so, the government of Switzerland might do its best to ignore this popular referendum.

50 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:55:03am

re: #45 Cato the Elder
House arrest in a luxury chalet? Sorry that's pretty damn good shelter.
[Link: www.examiner.com...]

51 Cineaste  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:55:12am

re: #48 Racer X

And Israel just entered ten new coordinates into their missile guidance systems...

52 SixDegrees  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:55:52am

re: #47 Rightwingconspirator

Read about the Chalet (house )arrest? He is still there rather than here. Or refer to Sharmuta's point, she made a better point than I did anyway.

Yes, they have a legal process they have to slog through to determine whether to extradite him to the US. Stupid rule of law bullshit. /

53 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:56:10am

re: #45 Cato the Elder

And Ira Iahorne. (sp? So wrong)

54 Racer X  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:56:37am

re: #49 Lawrence Schmerel

Even so, the government of Switzerland might do its best to ignore this popular referendum.

Why ignore the wishes of the Swiss people?

56 Sheepdogess  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:56:47am

Hey, several years my city banned tall buildings. They felt the were a blight.

OT - Four Tacoma just cops murdered, ambushed, in cold blood while sitting at their laptops in a coffee shop. No other customers in the coffee shop injured.

57 Ericus58  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:57:03am

re: #45 Cato the Elder

I can't find fault for your points, Cato.
Myself, I'm thankful I live in the US of A where our freedoms are in writing and staunchly defended. Yes, some will try and "game" the system for their benefit but that's not the norm.
You made a good point also in bringing up Saudi's intolerance - which is not the only place.
And the Swiss are not like Totalitarian countries previously mentioned.

58 Cineaste  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:57:08am

re: #53 Cannadian Club Akbar

And Ira Iahorne. (sp? So wrong)

Though the swiss did shelter Mark Rich I believe.

59 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:57:18am

re: #48 Racer X

200-300 tons of fuel? Anyone here able to translate that and see if it is anywhere near a correct number for their energy needs, (apart from turning Tel Aviv into a permanent night light)?

60 Athens Runaway  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:57:21am

re: #26 J.S.

The Swiss, btw, also eat cats..

The jerks. re: #55 salt1907

The White House party crasher was a radical Islamist with ties to groups that support and enable HAMAS and Hezbollah in the U.S.

But they weren't security risks. Robert Gibbs told me so.

61 soccerdad  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:57:26am

re: #39 Cato the Elder

For every Toblerone bar you don't buy, I'll buy six.

Add 3 to that total for me. Good on ya Cato

62 Racer X  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:57:35am

re: #55 salt1907

The White House party crasher was a radical Islamist with ties to groups that support and enable HAMAS and Hezbollah in the U.S.

WHAT?!?

63 SixDegrees  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:57:46am

re: #55 salt1907

The White House party crasher was a radical Islamist with ties to groups that support and enable HAMAS and Hezbollah in the U.S.

Sourced to Deb Schlussel. Not credible.

64 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:57:54am

OT: 4 police officers shot dead in Wash


Four police officers were shot and killed Sunday morning in what authorities called a targeted ambush at a coffee house in Washington state, a sheriff's official said.

Officials at the scene told The News Tribune in Tacoma two gunmen burst into the Forza Coffee Co. and shot the four uniformed officers as they were working on their laptop computers, then fled the scene.

Pierce County Sheriff's spokesman Ed Troyer said investigators believe the officers were targeted, and it was not a robbery.

Troyer tells the newspaper "it was just a flat out ambush."

65 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:58:49am

re: #52 SixDegrees

Stupid laws will do that. Stupid laws can only pose as due process. What law calls for him to be put up in a chalet?

66 Ojoe  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:58:52am

Tit for Tat.

You cannot even bring a Bible into some countries.

67 JohninLondon  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 10:59:55am

I think that what lies behind the vote is the very large influx of Muslims into Switzerland - the BBC said approaching one million.

All over Europe there is concern that Governments have permitted, indeed encouraged, large-scale immigration, usually without any consultation with their own peoples,

Anyone who knows East London, for example, will know that there has been a complete and very rapid change in the neighbourhoods there.

And certainly as far as the UK is concerned, lots of the immigrants have resisted integration.

So - I think the objection to minarets is symbolic of deeper unease. And it is NOT an objection to mosques, the vote specifically concerned the towers. So some of the ant-vote could be on aesthetic grounds.

(I have the same aesthetic objection to large minarets in the streetscape of London. And to the monstrous wind towers sprouting all over the precious countryside of Britain.)

68 Ojoe  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:00:10am

re: #48 Racer X

Civilization needs to respond with force here.

69 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:00:11am

re: #64 Killgore Trout

OT: 4 police officers shot dead in Wash

Saw that earlier. Crazy, no, insane. Every week there's been some type of mass shooting or another in this nation. Especially this year.

70 Boogberg  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:00:53am

re: #66 Ojoe

Tit for Tat.

You cannot even bring a Bible into some countries.

Doesn't matter. If you talk the talk, you gotta walk the walk.

71 Cineaste  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:00:59am

re: #66 Ojoe

Tit for Tat.

You cannot even bring a Bible into some countries.

Well just because some places don't believe in freedom doesn't mean that we should follow their example. Totally disagree with you on this one Ojoe. Western Civilization is better and stronger than that.

72 Racer X  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:01:15am

Russia police issue appeal after blast derails train

Russian police are appealing for witnesses following a bomb blast which derailed an express train north of Moscow on Friday, killing 25 people.

The BBC's Richard Galpin, in Moscow, says investigators want to talk to a group of people seen close to the scene shortly before the derailment.

Forensic experts returned to the crash site on Sunday to comb the debris of the Nevsky Express for clues. No-one has claimed responsibility for the explosion.

Police said an "improvised explosive device" derailed the last three carriages of the express, one of Russia's fastest trains, which links Moscow with St Petersburg.

73 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:01:33am

re: #68 Ojoe

Civilization needs to respond with force here.

74 SixDegrees  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:01:36am

re: #65 Rightwingconspirator

Stupid laws will do that. Stupid laws can only pose as due process. What law calls for him to be put up in a chalet?

He isn't being "put up" in a chalet. He's under house arrest, paying for his lodgings out of his own pocket while enjoying restricted movement.

Personally, I think he's a flight risk, and would rather see him behind bars pending the outcome of his extradition hearing. But that's not my call.

75 dugmartsch  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:01:54am

re: #36 Rightwingconspirator

The Swiss we now know, lack the sense to mentally separate the violent from the law abiding Muslim.

They can shelter Roman Polanski but not build a minaret? WTF?!

Haven't like the swiss for a long time.

People using their bank accounts to escape paying taxes and alimony has always pissed me off.

Just another bullet point for me in the List of Reasons not to visit Switzerland.

76 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:01:58am

re: #73 albusteve

duh?

77 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:02:30am

Ah yes, the language of Baron Bodissey and GoV.

78 Racer X  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:02:47am

re: #68 Ojoe

Civilization needs to respond with force here.

Not gonna happen. We've missed out opportunity. A nuclear armed Iran is inevitbile. Inetbile. Inevitable!

79 Ericus58  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:03:31am

re: #64 Killgore Trout

We had breaking news on this earlier this morning with the details still being released - One or Two suspects, One firm discription being released is a black male in his 20's, scruffy in appearance in jeans and black coat.

Terrible. We just laid to rest one of Seattle's Finest that was executed on the 31st.

Hunt them.

80 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:03:55am

The freedom to practice your religion does not extend you the "right" to build whatever you damn well please wherever you damn well like, funded with Wahhabi money and sticking a thumb in the eye of the indigenous population.

This is a nontroversy. No one said anything about "you can't build a mosque". No one is losing the right to pray towards Mecca.

Again, let the Saudis allow one single church - even without a spire - or a synagogue to be built in Riyadh, and I'll thing about starting to cry big splashtears for the poor oppressed Mohametans in Switzlerland.

81 Ojoe  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:04:13am

re: #70 Boogberg

Disagree. islam can be taken many ways, some of them very bad. An advertisement for it will be seen by many, and taken in many ways, some of them bad. I would say after a century or two of good behavior, then minarets.

82 Ojoe  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:04:42am

re: #78 Racer X

They will use their new weapon IMHO.

83 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:04:52am

re: #74 SixDegrees

I should have written "allowed" rather than put up.
I'm with you on your last point. Allowing the wealthy to be in luxury custody instead of behind bars like an ordinary convict is the height of elitism, and unfairness. He's not a suspect this not an alleged crime-he is a convicted pedophile.

84 Racer X  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:05:24am

re: #80 Cato the Elder

I hate it when I agree with you.

85 Sheepdogess  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:05:29am

re: #64 Killgore Trout

Domestic terrorism by evil worthless scum.

The second ambush of police in a month. I live in King county in a nice quiet neighborhood and we now ha have a event at least once week. The crime in our neighborhood has increased 100%.

Did you get a chance to check out the comments?

86 Racer X  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:05:53am

re: #82 Ojoe

They will use their new weapon IMHO.

Yes they will. And there will be much hand-wringing afterwards.

87 Ericus58  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:07:29am

re: #85 Sheepdogess

The comments are the sickest, most vile by some I've read on this - the KOMO website has my blood boiling on some. yeah, sure some trolls are getting their jollies off but still...

88 Ojoe  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:07:49am

re: #86 Racer X

It will come to "The three conjectures" ? I hope not.
A horror, ever more possible.

89 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:07:58am

re: #84 Racer X

I hate it when I agree with you.

Agreeing with you seems to be bad for my spelling, too! ;^)

90 sagehen  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:08:39am

re: #29 Racer X

Perhaps the Swiss people are concerned about losing their country's unique identity?


So unique they've got two languages, neither of which is called "Swiss."

"In Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they also produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love -- they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock." -- Orson Welles

And secret banking, Orson. Don't forget they're the safe deposit box to despots throughout the world.

(personally, I thought Switzerland felt very much like Disneyland, only with better chocolate. I did not enjoy my visit.)

91 SixDegrees  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:08:44am

re: #83 Rightwingconspirator

I should have written "allowed" rather than put up.
I'm with you on your last point. Allowing the wealthy to be in luxury custody instead of behind bars like an ordinary convict is the height of elitism, and unfairness. He's not a suspect this not an alleged crime-he is a convicted pedophile.

True, as far as the United States is concerned. Switzerland, however, has to work through their own legal process - which they seem to be doing - in order to approve extradition. The only apparition of US law that applies in Switzerland is whatever sort of extradition treaties we have in place with them. We can't expect our sentences to be carried out by proxy.

92 Sheepdogess  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:08:49am

re: #56 Sheepdogess

OMG - PIMF

Hey, several years ago my city banned building all tall buildings. They felt they were a blight.

OT - Four Tacoma just cops murdered, ambushed, in cold blood while sitting at their laptops in a coffee shop. No other customers in the coffee shop injured.

93 Gang of One  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:09:57am

re: #56 Sheepdogess

Hey, several years my city banned tall buildings. They felt the were a blight.

OT - Four Tacoma just cops murdered, ambushed, in cold blood while sitting at their laptops in a coffee shop. No other customers in the coffee shop injured.

Damn. Narco-wars?
Prayers for the families.

94 sagehen  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:11:10am

re: #35 Cineaste

I'm backing a ban on Cuckoo Clocks and toblerone - who's in?


As long as I can still have my Lindt.

95 Boogberg  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:11:23am

re: #81 Ojoe

Disagree. islam can be taken many ways, some of them very bad. An advertisement for it will be seen by many, and taken in many ways, some of them bad. I would say after a century or two of good behavior, then minarets.

Well what are law-abiding, peaceful Muslims supposed to make of this?

96 Racer X  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:11:24am

re: #88 Ojoe

It will come to "The three conjectures" ? I hope not.
A horror, ever more possible.

I will never submit to any religion or cult, no matter the means they use to force submission.

97 Gang of One  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:12:18am

re: #66 Ojoe

Tit for Tat.

You cannot even bring a Bible into some countries.

Some of these "countries" don't permit Jews to enter.
The Magic Kingdom being one of them. IIRC.

98 Racer X  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:12:20am

re: #95 Boogberg

Well what are law-abiding, peaceful Muslims supposed to make of this?

Clean your house.

99 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:12:23am

re: #95 Boogberg

Well what are law-abiding, peaceful Muslims supposed to make of this?

who cares?...what do they think of extremist Islam?...

100 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:12:35am

re: #57 Ericus58

[...] I'm thankful I live in the US of A where our freedoms are in writing and staunchly defended. [...]

Even here in the US, the First Amendment says nothing about your right to a particular type of architecture. Try getting a building permit for a sun deck in a small New England town, and then ask the planning commission to approve a minaret. LOL.

101 J.S.  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:13:33am

re: #80 Cato the Elder

If this were indeed "not a controversy", then why the fuss? Why the uproar over minarets? As if minarets are a menace? It's ridiculous. (The proper attitude for non-controversies is indifference. The same attitude of indifference should have been extended for those publishing cartoons of Mo. Not hauling publishers before some HRC.)

102 salt1907  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:13:38am

re: #63 SixDegrees


Actually, this story (White House party crasher's Islamic ties) came from the New York Times (before they spiked it). And, BTW, Debbie Schlussel is very credible.

103 Gang of One  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:14:37am

Minarets or no minarets, I'm not that concerned. I can't help thinking that bottom line, the Europeans traded six million Jews for 30+ million Moslems.
let the flames begin.

104 Ojoe  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:14:41am

re: #95 Boogberg

They can patiently wait, and try to change the behavior of their own loonies.

105 SixDegrees  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:14:57am

re: #102 salt1907

Actually, this story (White House party crasher's Islamic ties) came from the New York Times (before they spiked it). And, BTW, Debbie Schlussel is very credible.

Not even a little. If you have a link to a real news source for this story, I'd be glad to look at it. Until then, it's eminently ignorable.

106 Racer X  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:15:10am
Dubai banks given extra liquidity

The central bank of the United Arab Emirates (UAE) has said it will provide banks with extra liquidity. The news comes days after the state-owned Dubai World said it would ask for an extension on repaying its debts, sending world stock markets tumbling.

The liquidity will be available to all UAE banks as well as foreign banks operating in the Emirates.

Stimulus!

107 Ojoe  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:16:09am

BBL

108 Gang of One  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:17:46am

re: #86 Racer X

Yes they will. And there will be much hand-wringing afterwards.

And after that, life will go on, poor, poor Jooos.
///

109 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:18:20am

re: #105 SixDegrees

Not even a little. If you have a link to a real news source for this story, I'd be glad to look at it. Until then, it's eminently ignorable.

Did you even look at the link?

110 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:19:39am

re: #101 J.S.

If this were indeed "not a controversy", then why the fuss? Why the uproar over minarets?

I'm sorry, but I, for one, don't want to see any damn minarets in Basel or Zurich until I can go to see a church spire in Medina.

I'd be most pleased if the rest of Europe would get a clue.

Again, freedom of religion does not include freedom to build your skinny towers in my town, if my town doesn't want them.

111 Racer X  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:19:48am
White House Party Crashers Almost Started Nuclear War

WASHINGTON (The Borowitz Report) - The couple who crashed the state dinner at the White House earlier this week made their way to the Oval Office and came within seconds of triggering a nuclear war, Secret Service officials admitted today.

According to a Secret Service spokesperson, the uninvited couple managed to reach the unlocked Oval Office without supervision and began "drunk dialing" Russian President Dmitry Medvedev before they were nabbed.

"They should not have been in the Oval Office and should not have been on the red phone trying to start a nuclear war," said Carol Foyler, the Secret Service spokesperson. "On behalf of the entire Secret Service, let me say, 'My bad.'"

The Obama White House said it was exploring a number of alternatives to prevent party crashing from occurring in the future, such as instituting a so-called "public option" for state dinners that would allow uninvited members of the public to attend.

Funny.

112 dugmartsch  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:20:22am

re: #80 Cato the Elder

The freedom to practice your religion does not extend you the "right" to build whatever you damn well please wherever you damn well like, funded with Wahhabi money and sticking a thumb in the eye of the indigenous population.

This is a nontroversy. No one said anything about "you can't build a mosque". No one is losing the right to pray towards Mecca.

Again, let the Saudis allow one single church - even without a spire - or a synagogue to be built in Riyadh, and I'll thing about starting to cry big splashtears for the poor oppressed Mohametans in Switzlerland.

So on land I own I can't build a holy proboscis because you disagree with my religion?

It's absurd and arbitrary. Unless you can connect the money back to terrorist organizations what right does any government have to tell me what I can and cannot build on private property that does not conflict with any local building codes that are probably bullshit anyway.

I thought most people here were conservatives.

113 SixDegrees  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:20:51am

re: #109 MandyManners

Did you even look at the link?

I did.

114 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:21:44am

re: #112 dugmartsch

So on land I own I can't build a holy proboscis because you disagree with my religion?

It's absurd and arbitrary. Unless you can connect the money back to terrorist organizations what right does any government have to tell me what I can and cannot build on private property that does not conflict with any local building codes that are probably bullshit anyway.

I thought most people here were conservatives.

Try building just anything you want on land you own in any city or town in America. You'll be in for a shock.

115 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:21:45am

re: #113 SixDegrees

Not quite CNN there.

116 dugmartsch  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:23:48am

re: #114 Cato the Elder

Try building just anything you want on land you own in any city or town in America. You'll be in for a shock.

Because I'm obviously ignorant since I disagree with you.

117 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:23:59am

re: #112 dugmartsch

So on land I own I can't build a holy proboscis because you disagree with my religion?

It's absurd and arbitrary. Unless you can connect the money back to terrorist organizations what right does any government have to tell me what I can and cannot build on private property that does not conflict with any local building codes that are probably bullshit anyway.

I thought most people here were conservatives.

so what if they want a triple minaret, taller than any other structure?...what if the want a six acre mosque?...where does it end?...there need to be restrictions of some sort, it's not a symbol, it's a biulding

118 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:25:06am

Architectural codes, zoning, CC&R's are part of the law of the land. Any that can be shown to discriminate in an illegal manner can be overturned.

119 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:26:16am

re: #118 Rightwingconspirator

Architectural codes, zoning, CC&R's are part of the law of the land. Any that can be shown to discriminate in an illegal manner can be overturned.

Equal Protection Clause - Fourteenth Amendment

120 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:28:40am

re: #119 Gus 802

Exactly.

121 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:29:04am

re: #117 albusteve

So place those restrictions on all religions then?

122 Boogberg  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:29:24am

I'm curious to see how the worst segment of the Swiss Islamic community reacts to this. If they start tearing shit up then they will confirm the majority Swiss' views.

123 Achilles Tang  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:29:25am

Minarets are supposed to be places where they call out the time to pray from, like church bell towers. I am sure that most if not all parts of Switzerland do not allow this noise 5 times per day, so the minarets are purely symbolic in such places. As such they are a matter of building codes, which can apply to any and all buildings in an area that wants to maintain a certain character.

This is not to say, however, that the sentiments expressed by the Swiss don't have baser motivations.

124 J.S.  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:29:37am

re: #110 Cato the Elder

Yes. The Swiss do have a democracy, and it's a referendum the people of Switzerland voted on. (Wouldn't it be amusing if a similar referendum were ever held in Saudi Arabia, and the people voted against the ruling monarchs?...although, the likelihood of having a referendum in the Saudi Kingdom is about as likely as seeing church spires in Medina.)

125 dugmartsch  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:30:21am

re: #117 albusteve

so what if they want a triple minaret, taller than any other structure?...what if the want a six acre mosque?...where does it end?...there need to be restrictions of some sort, it's not a symbol, it's a biulding

Right, this is all about building safety. We're all very concerned about the threat that poorly constructed minarets pose to the children.

Restrictions of some sort? Banning the building of perfectly well designed buildings on private property because you don't like someone's religion.

I'll say it again. I though you were conservatives. In what conservative worldview does the government tell you what you can build on private property.

126 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:30:43am

re: #121 McSpiff

So place those restrictions on all religions then?

yes, of course

127 Varek Raith  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:30:56am

re: #117 albusteve

so what if they want a triple minaret, taller than any other structure?...what if the want a six acre mosque?...where does it end?...there need to be restrictions of some sort, it's not a symbol, it's a biulding

So what if they wanted a triple steeple, taller than any other structure?... What if they wanted a six acre church?... Where does it end?... There need to be restrictions of some sort, it's not a symbol, it's a building.
/I can build strawmen, too.

128 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:31:51am

re: #125 dugmartsch

I'll say it again. I though you were conservatives. In what conservative worldview does the government tell you what you can build on private property.

Get real. In New England you need a freakin' permit to dig a well.

129 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:32:52am

re: #125 dugmartsch

Right, this is all about building safety. We're all very concerned about the threat that poorly constructed minarets pose to the children.

Restrictions of some sort? Banning the building of perfectly well designed buildings on private property because you don't like someone's religion.

I'll say it again. I though you were conservatives. In what conservative worldview does the government tell you what you can build on private property.

you are making stuff up...in Santa Barbera you can't even have a basketball hoop in your drive...or whatever...it's got nothing to do with conservatives

130 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:33:21am

re: #126 albusteve

Agreed in that case.

131 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:33:29am

re: #91 SixDegrees

I guess i have a hard time understanding the delay in extraditing a convicted man, who is not subject to the death penalty, who is not ill, etc. Can somebody show me the Swiss law that makes all that appropriate? If so I will shut the heck up.

132 Frogmarch  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:34:46am

Thank a radical Islamist.

133 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:34:53am

re: #127 Varek Raith

post whatever you want, I don't care

134 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:35:00am

re: #23 Lawrence Schmerel

Such a ban would be unconstitutional in the United States. I am a little surprised that it would be permissible in Switzerland.

I'm not. Europe's tolerance of religious and cultural difference is barely skin deep.

135 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:35:55am

re: #29 Racer X

Perhaps the Swiss people are concerned about losing their country's unique identity?

Switzerland's identity is being a country with no minarets?

136 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:36:08am

re: #132 Frogmarch

Thank the people that voted for this.

137 Jeff In Ohio  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:36:39am

Cases for banning minarets in Switzerland:
You can't dig a well in New England
You can't put up a hoop in Santa Barbara
The Saudi's hate Christians
You let them build 1, they'll want 3.
The Swiss like holes in their cheese.

138 SixDegrees  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:36:44am

re: #117 albusteve

so what if they want a triple minaret, taller than any other structure?...what if the want a six acre mosque?...where does it end?...there need to be restrictions of some sort, it's not a symbol, it's a biulding

The problem I see here is that the referendum is specifically directed against one particular religion's architectural element. It doesn't simply impose, say, maximum height requirements, or height-to-base-area requirements, or some other general constraint that applies to buildings regardless of religious purpose. It is specifically directed at a feature unique to mosques, and to no other structures of similar design or function.

139 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:36:52am

re: #30 Cato the Elder

Maybe the Swiss will reconsider when the Saudis allow church spires.

There's this little thing called reciprocity which the West seems to have forgotten all about.

I shall make sure to spend some time and money in Switzerland on my next trip to Europe.

Why should Swiss Muslims pay for the Saudis being bastards?

140 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:37:33am

re: #34 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey

No to minarets, but yes to Dinnerjacket?

He's too short to ruin the picturesque skyline.

141 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:39:14am

re: #138 SixDegrees

The problem I see here is that the referendum is specifically directed against one particular religion's architectural element. It doesn't simply impose, say, maximum height requirements, or height-to-base-area requirements, or some other general constraint that applies to buildings regardless of religious purpose. It is specifically directed at a feature unique to mosques, and to no other structures of similar design or function.

certainly it will have to face the test in court and it should

142 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:39:14am

re: #139 SanFranciscoZionist

People seem to forget that not all muslims come from foreign countries. Why someone born in switzerland should need to answer for the policy of a foreign power I'll never understand.

143 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:39:17am

re: #66 Ojoe

Tit for Tat.

You cannot even bring a Bible into some countries.

Yes, but we consider those countries BAD. Do we really want to play this game with them?

144 Jeff In Ohio  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:40:14am

From the Tower of Babel, Wikipedia:
"Minarets also function as air conditioning mechanisms: as the sun heats the dome, air is drawn in through open windows then up and out of the minaret, thereby providing natural ventilation."

Why do the Swiss hate green technology?

145 Racer X  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:40:41am

Culture.

What will the world look like in 100 years? 200? 500?

Will countries still have a separate, identifiable culture? Or will it be a mish-mash of whoever immigrated?

146 SixDegrees  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:41:01am

re: #131 Rightwingconspirator

I guess i have a hard time understanding the delay in extraditing a convicted man, who is not subject to the death penalty, who is not ill, etc. Can somebody show me the Swiss law that makes all that appropriate? If so I will shut the heck up.

It's basically a trial, with arguments and evidence presented before a judge. I believe the US side is ready to go at any time; however, Polanski's lawyers probably require time to assemble their case, given that they weren't exactly prepared for such an event. And like all legal proceedings, there are certainly a number of distinct parts it is broken down into, just like here and everywhere else: arraignment, pleading, assignment to trial and other such protocols.

It's not a quick process anywhere that I'm aware of.

147 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:41:05am

Also, I have to say that the characterization of Switzerland in the opening sentence of this post is vile.

Swiss neutrality was a recognized feature of European reality long before World War II. No one tried to garrison troops there or cross Swiss territory during the conflict, not even Hitler. Every able-bodied Swiss male was in the army, and any interference would have been stoutly resisted. Much as the free Swiss have decided they don't want minarets today.

As for handing over Jews, so did every country in Europe save Albania, according to Medaura.

Of course, there were also Jews who found refuge in Switzerland. I happen to know some of their descendants.

uiuat Heluetia!

148 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:41:19am

re: #98 Racer X

Clean your house.

How? You think law-abiding Muslims have some super-secret weapon?

149 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:41:59am

re: #102 salt1907

Actually, this story (White House party crasher's Islamic ties) came from the New York Times (before they spiked it). And, BTW, Debbie Schlussel is very credible.

Debbie Schlussel is a nutcase who wouldn't know fact-checking if it bit her on the ass.

150 Racer X  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:42:44am

re: #148 SanFranciscoZionist

How? You think law-abiding Muslims have some super-secret weapon?

Yes - their voice.

151 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:43:08am

re: #114 Cato the Elder

Try building just anything you want on land you own in any city or town in America. You'll be in for a shock.

There's a difference between denying a building permit, and deciding that no one will grant a building permit.

152 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:43:14am

re: #148 SanFranciscoZionist

How? You think law-abiding Muslims have some super-secret weapon?

strawman!
strawman!

153 Boogberg  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:43:29am

re: #147 Cato the Elder

Also, I have to say that the characterization of Switzerland in the opening sentence of this post is vile.

Swiss neutrality was a recognized feature of European reality long before World War II. No one tried to garrison troops there or cross Swiss territory during the conflict, not even Hitler. Every able-bodied Swiss male was in the army, and any interference would have been stoutly resisted. Much as the free Swiss have decided they don't want minarets today.

As for handing over Jews, so did every country in Europe save Albania, according to Medaura.

Of course, there were also Jews who found refuge in Switzerland. I happen to know some of their descendants.

uiuat Heluetia!

Yeah, that was a bit strong. Agree.

154 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:43:51am

re: #145 Racer X

Culture.

What will the world look like in 100 years? 200? 500?

Will countries still have a separate, identifiable culture? Or will it be a mish-mash of whoever immigrated?

And we heard the same arguments about everyone from the Jews to the Irish coming to America.

155 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:43:56am

re: #117 albusteve

so what if they want a triple minaret, taller than any other structure?...what if the want a six acre mosque?...where does it end?...there need to be restrictions of some sort, it's not a symbol, it's a biulding

I assume there ARE building restrictions and guidelines in Switzerland. I also assume that if they want a six acre mosque, they can apply for a permit.

156 dugmartsch  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:44:09am

re: #128 Cato the Elder

Get real. In New England you need a freakin' permit to dig a well.

Because you might hit a pipe in the ground you'd have no way of knowing about? Sounds reasonable.

Regardless, you're bringing public safety concerns into the issue when those are just straw men. The issue is what authority a government should have in passing laws that prohibit the building of structures on private property for religious reasons.

I don't live in Saudi Arabia for a reason. Even if I were a Muslim, I'd still be living in America. We might make the process onerous, but not prohibitive. And never because we disagree with you on religious grounds.

157 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:44:38am

re: #139 SanFranciscoZionist

Why should Swiss Muslims pay for the Saudis being bastards?

"They can't have minarets" does not mean they can't practice their religion. The minaret is nowhere mentioned in the Koran.

I'm sorry, but if any country, city, town or village wants to preserve its architectural identity by limiting what can be plopped down in the center of things even though it looks like it came from Mecca Disneyland, I have no problem with that at all.

158 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:45:51am

re: #151 SanFranciscoZionist

There's a difference between denying a building permit, and deciding that no one will grant a building permit.

And in this case, buildings that include minarets will be denied permits.

Big, fat deal.

159 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:45:52am

re: #155 SanFranciscoZionist

I assume there ARE building restrictions and guidelines in Switzerland. I also assume that if they want a six acre mosque, they can apply for a permit.

it was a referendum...the people voted and I agree with them...it's not the end

160 Racer X  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:46:13am

re: #154 McSpiff

And we heard the same arguments about everyone from the Jews to the Irish coming to America.

What argument? I was asking a question.

161 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:46:32am

re: #142 McSpiff

People seem to forget that not all muslims come from foreign countries. Why someone born in switzerland should need to answer for the policy of a foreign power I'll never understand.

Oh, I get it all the time, from people who want me to solve all of the Palestinian's problems for them before they stop picketing my cultural events.

Which is one reason I am a little dubious about behavior like this...

162 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:47:42am

re: #156 dugmartsch

Because you might hit a pipe in the ground you'd have no way of knowing about? Sounds reasonable.

Regardless, you're bringing public safety concerns into the issue when those are just straw men. The issue is what authority a government should have in passing laws that prohibit the building of structures on private property for religious reasons.

I don't live in Saudi Arabia for a reason. Even if I were a Muslim, I'd still be living in America. We might make the process onerous, but not prohibitive. And never because we disagree with you on religious grounds.

the issue is whatever posters want it to be...you disagree with the vote, okay

163 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:48:54am

re: #160 Racer X

What argument? I was asking a question.

I somehow managed to completely misread your previous post. Sorry that my reply doesn't make any sense.

164 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:49:31am

re: #157 Cato the Elder

"They can't have minarets" does not mean they can't practice their religion. The minaret is nowhere mentioned in the Koran.

I'm sorry, but if any country, city, town or village wants to preserve its architectural identity by limiting what can be plopped down in the center of things even though it looks like it came from Mecca Disneyland, I have no problem with that at all.

Hey. You brought up the Saudis and the churches.

165 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:50:30am

re: #156 dugmartsch

[...] Regardless, you're bringing public safety concerns into the issue when those are just straw men. The issue is what authority a government should have in passing laws that prohibit the building of structures on private property for religious reasons. [...]

I never mentioned public safety. That's your cuddly little straw man.

I happen to think that towns have the right to prohibit building that radically alters the character of the locale. If I have a three-hundred acre farm and no one can see my post-structurally-sound edifice except from the air, that's another matter.

The whole point of a minaret in Europe (or in Deerfield, Massachusetts) is to challenge the natives. It has nothing to do with religious freedom and everything to do with arrogance. Good for the Swiss for stamping hard on that.

166 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:50:38am

re: #159 albusteve

it was a referendum...the people voted and I agree with them...it's not the end

Voting to specifically limit one religion's ability to build religious structures is trashy as hell.

167 Gang of One  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:51:04am

re: #151 SanFranciscoZionist

There's a difference between denying a building permit, and deciding that no one will grant a building permit.

Isn't that the same thing?

168 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:51:13am

Architectural or zoning standard are irrelevant for the most part. While they may limit the size of the religious sign they will not set standards for the type of symbol. Anytown, USA will thus limit the size of something like Minaret but they will not ban it outright.

Another thing. Zoning creates zoning districts per use. So you will have areas dedicated for churches. So in many case you can't build and church or spire in residential districts -- as an example.

A civilized nation does not create laws and or statues in response to totalitarian states. So it is irrational to say that we, as civilized people, will create said laws and or statutes in order to respond in an equally uncivilized manner.

169 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:51:19am

re: #165 Cato the Elder

How is someone born in switzerland not native in your opinion?

170 J.S.  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:52:18am

re: #147 Cato the Elder

(and Bulgaria! link to ADL article: "ADL Honors Bulgaria for Saving Jews from Holocaust", etc. But we've had this argument before, a few years ago..)

171 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:52:41am

re: #167 Gang of One

Isn't that the same thing?

No. If it's the law that all buildings in certain zones need to match the cute Swiss cultural stuff, that applies to everyone. If you could potentially build a postmodern skyscraper next to the Old Charming Castle, but not a minaret, that's discriminatory.

172 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:52:55am

re: #164 SanFranciscoZionist

Hey. You brought up the Saudis and the churches.

In Saudi Arabia, Christians and Jews can't even practice their religion in the privacy of their own homes.

I am not going to accuse the Swiss of intolerance because they don't want minarets in Berne.

173 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:53:42am

re: #166 SanFranciscoZionist

Voting to specifically limit one religion's ability to build religious structures is trashy as hell.

too bad...did you read the language?...I didn't, but if I'm trashy so be it...I see no reason to let a few dominate the will of the many...nobody is inhibiting their right to worship...churches need restraint just like everybody else

174 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:53:55am

re: #172 Cato the Elder

In Saudi Arabia, Christians and Jews can't even practice their religion in the privacy of their own homes.

I am not going to accuse the Swiss of intolerance because they don't want minarets in Berne.

Why not? Because of the Saudis? The Saudis are horrible, everyone know that, but they're not some kind of world standard for behavior.

175 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:54:14am

re: #169 McSpiff

How is someone born in switzerland not native in your opinion?

Um...what's the definition of "native"?

176 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:54:56am

re: #161 SanFranciscoZionist

Exactly. If a country in Europe was placing restrictions on the building of synagogs specifically all you'd hear in this thread is about the anti-semistism of the euro-liberal.

177 Jeff In Ohio  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:55:17am

re: #165 Cato the Elder
The whole point of a minaret in Europe (or in Deerfield, Massachusetts) is to challenge the natives.

Source?

178 tokyobk  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:55:29am

Split on this ones.

Minarets are symbols of power and demarcation of land that belongs to the dar-al-Islam.

The Hagia Sophia in Istanbul got its minarets as a sign of Islamic conquest.

The current Turkish prime minister likened the towers to bayonets for the same reason.

On the other hand, I hate the idea of targeting one religion, however much some elements of Islam are really bringing it on themselves and their co-religionists.

179 Racer X  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:56:16am

The city of Santa Barbara requires all new buildings adhere to a certain architectural style:

Santa Barbara Architecture

The "Santa Barbara" architectural style is famous around the world. Although distinctly influenced by the architecture of Spain, it's actually a blend of genres, including Spanish, Mediterranean and Moorish/Islamic. Its key features are gleaming white stucco surfaces, the famous red tile roofs, courtyards, and the wrought iron used to ornament windows, light fixtures, staircases, and other accent elements.

This aesthetic is largely the work of engineer Bernhard Hoffman. He founded the City Planning Commission and worked with other organizing bodies to enforce building codes and architectural standards at the advent of the 20th century, demanding that all new construction conform to modern safety guidelines. The new style which emerged was a tribute to Santa Barbara's Spanish heritage and the predecessor of the "look" we know today.

In 1927, Pearl Chase became chair of the Plans and Planting Committee (in which capacity she served until her retirement in the 1970s) and further helped establish and enforce many of the standards that have kept Santa Barbara, in her words, "...a beautiful city, with an architecture in harmony with its historic background and adapted to its distinctive topography, its climate and its delightful location."

I don't hear a whole lot of people complaining.

180 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:56:57am

re: #176 McSpiff

Exactly. If a country in Europe was placing restrictions on the building of synagogs specifically all you'd hear in this thread is about the anti-semistism of the euro-liberal.

Damn skippy. From where I'm standing, it all looks like the same thing to me.

181 Achilles Tang  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:57:57am

re: #125 dugmartsch

Right, this is all about building safety. We're all very concerned about the threat that poorly constructed minarets pose to the children.

Restrictions of some sort? Banning the building of perfectly well designed buildings on private property because you don't like someone's religion.

I'll say it again. I though you were conservatives. In what conservative worldview does the government tell you what you can build on private property.

Maybe it is because many don't like the religion. Hell, I don't, but I also don't like my typical well established view of a traditional Swiss town cluttered up with outlandish towers that serve no function except to state "look at us, we are different from you and we intend to make sure you know it".

182 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:58:02am

re: #179 Racer X

The city of Santa Barbara requires all new buildings adhere to a certain architectural style:

I don't hear a whole lot of people complaining.

Because that's universal. Lots of places have similar restrictions, and as I said, if the Swiss decided that they wanted the whole country matchy-matchy with schlosses and quaint cottages, I'd have no problem.

183 Boogberg  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:58:20am

Last I heard, No building in St. Louis is allowed to be taller than the Arch. Just thought I'd throw that in. :D

184 tokyobk  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:58:23am

re: #180 SanFranciscoZionist

Damn skippy. From where I'm standing, it all looks like the same thing to me.

But it is not the same thing. No one is banning mosques. just minarets and the 4 that exist are not to be used for calls to prayer.

The better analogy, imo, would be to banning church spires and bell ringing.

185 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:59:17am

re: #184 tokyobk

But it is not the same thing. No one is banning mosques. just minarets and the 4 that exist are not to be used for calls to prayer.

The better analogy, imo, would be to banning church spires and bell ringing.

Reasonable distinction. But I think the same effect can be reached without making it a targeted thing.

186 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:59:29am

re: #182 SanFranciscoZionist

Because that's universal. Lots of places have similar restrictions, and as I said, if the Swiss decided that they wanted the whole country matchy-matchy with schlosses and quaint cottages, I'd have no problem.

you'd find one me thinks

187 tokyobk  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:59:41am

==> still thinks no building taller then William Penn's hat was a good idea.

188 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 11:59:50am

re: #183 Boogberg

Last I heard, No building in St. Louis is allowed to be taller than the Arch. Just thought I'd throw that in. :D

Wasn't there a battle to build a big minaret there about two years ago? I *think* there was a thread about it here.

189 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:00:00pm

re: #174 SanFranciscoZionist

Why not? Because of the Saudis? The Saudis are horrible, everyone know that, but they're not some kind of world standard for behavior.

No, because it's a ban on minarets, for cheeses' sake, not on mosques. A democratic referendum was held, and the majority decided thus.

I don't see anywhere in the First Amendment a guarantee of your right to build a minaret. In New England, the Catholic churches are indistinguishable from the Unitarians, externally. Poor, oppressed Catholics.

Really, this is such a friggin' non-issue. No one has banned mosques or Korans.

If the Swiss don't want minarets, let those who do move elsewhere.

190 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:00:19pm

re: #175 MandyManners

Um...what's the definition of "native"?

Sorry, just wondering how Cato is asserting that a minaret is to challenge the natives. My point is: who's a native? If a group of swiss born muslims want to build a minarets, would that be a 'challenge' to the natives? I just detest the idea that if you're a muslim, you aren't a real American/Canadian/Swiss. It's way too similar to the discrimination that faced Catholics and Jews for so many years, and I'd hate to see any other group go through that.

re: #165 Cato the Elder

I never mentioned public safety. That's your cuddly little straw man.

I happen to think that towns have the right to prohibit building that radically alters the character of the locale. If I have a three-hundred acre farm and no one can see my post-structurally-sound edifice except from the air, that's another matter.

The whole point of a minaret in Europe (or in Deerfield, Massachusetts) is to challenge the natives. It has nothing to do with religious freedom and everything to do with arrogance. Good for the Swiss for stamping hard on that.

191 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:00:52pm

re: #180 SanFranciscoZionist

Damn skippy. From where I'm standing, it all looks like the same thing to me.

Jewish groups oppose push to ban minarets in Switzerland


GENEVA (AFP)---Switzerland's biggest Jewish groups said Wednesday that a far-right push to ban the construction of minarets here was a "threat" to religious harmony and hindered the integration of Muslims.
"The referendum infringes religious freedom, a concept enshrined in the constitution," said the Swiss Federation of Jewish Communities and the Platform of Liberal Jews in Switzerland in a statement.

It "also poses a threat to peaceful relations between the religions and inhibits the integration endeavours of Muslims in Switzerland," they added.

SNIP

192 tokyobk  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:01:09pm

Some of the old sephardic shuls have towers not unlike minarets. I have seen a few in New England that are now churches.

193 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:01:10pm

re: #187 tokyobk

==> still thinks no building taller then William Penn's hat was a good idea.

uh ho...the Curse of Billy Penn...not again

194 J.S.  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:01:19pm

David Frum wrote an interesting column the other day, and I think some of what he wrote is apropo for this thread (even though this was not the topic of his article.) He wrote:

Through the Bush years especially, Dubai represented prime evidence of America’s supposedly looming decline. It was building the world’s tallest tower! It was buying American port facilities! It was emerging as the world’s leading banking centre!

Much of this talk was obviously foolish. Tower boasting especially reminded one of that old Soviet-era joke: “Our Russian computers are the biggest in the world!”


In other words, it's all based on the assumption that "bigger towers mean better towers". (Where's Ben Hur?)

195 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:02:18pm

re: #176 McSpiff

Exactly. If a country in Europe was placing restrictions on the building of synagogs specifically all you'd hear in this thread is about the anti-semistism of the euro-liberal.

Crap.

No mosques have been banned. Just minarets. A synagogue that wanted to build itself a replica of the First Temple in Lyons would probably not get very far, either. Little matter of blending in. Which synagogues tend to do, here and in Europe.

This is about architecture, not religion.

196 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:02:54pm

re: #186 albusteve

you'd find one me thinks

Really? I have no particular reason to want tons of minarets built in Switzerland, but this is the same goddamn country that prohibits kosher (and halal) slaughter, and didn't give Jews permanent citizenship until after the war. I don't trust these people worth a damn.

197 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:03:02pm

re: #188 MandyManners

Wasn't there a battle to build a big minaret there about two years ago? I *think* there was a thread about it here.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

198 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:03:02pm

re: #195 Cato the Elder

Crap.

No mosques have been banned. Just minarets. A synagogue that wanted to build itself a replica of the First Temple in Lyons would probably not get very far, either. Little matter of blending in. Which synagogues tend to do, here and in Europe.

This is about architecture, not religion.

these people are just like..NIRTHERS!

199 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:03:16pm

Referendum was promoted by the Swiss People's Party.

Letter from ADL:

Letters to the Editor
The New York Times December 10, 2003

To the Editor:

Along with the pronounced xenophobia and ultra-nationalism in the Swiss People's Party platform and pronouncements, Party leader Christoph Blocher has a record of making anti-Semitic statements. ("Switzerland Is Odd Piece in the Continent's New Mosaic," Dec. 10)

In 1999, a Zurich Court convicted Blocher of using anti-Semitic stereotypes in a speech two years earlier in which he stated, "Jews are interested only in money." In 1997, referring to a planned referendum on a government-initiated "Swiss Foundation for Solidarity" to help needy people, including Holocaust survivors, Mr. Blocher declared "They could blackmail banks, you can blackmail governments, you can blackmail national banks, you can force them to give in. (But) I would like to see if they can blackmail an entire people at the ballot box. They have to get through the eye of this needle, and I will do my utmost that we do not yield." Mr. Blocher's implication was clear that the "they" were Jews.

Sincerely,

Abraham H. Foxman
National Director

200 baldeagle  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:03:33pm

If I am not mistaken,,,everyone in Switzerland is reguired to own and know how to operate an M16, due to they have a required militia. Not sure if this is still a truism,,,but use to be. Good way to quell terrorism and crime.

201 Boogberg  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:03:43pm

re: #188 MandyManners

Wasn't there a battle to build a big minaret there about two years ago? I *think* there was a thread about it here.

Hmmm...interesting. Of course, it would have to be one helluva mineret to be taller than the Arch. That thing's huge.

202 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:03:45pm

re: #178 tokyobk

On the other hand, I hate the idea of targeting one religion, however much some elements of Islam are really bringing it on themselves and their co-religionists.

No religion is being targeted. An architecture style that fits the surroundings in Switzerland like my fist fits your eye has been restricted.

Where's the controversy?

203 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:04:26pm

re: #196 SanFranciscoZionist

Really? I have no particular reason to want tons of minarets built in Switzerland, but this is the same goddamn country that prohibits kosher (and halal) slaughter, and didn't give Jews permanent citizenship until after the war. I don't trust these people worth a damn.

you don't have to...you can disagree with the vote all you want...I'll still respect you (cough)...really!

204 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:04:45pm

ADL Concerned at Outcome of Swiss Elections

New York, NY, October 21, 2003 … The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) today expressed concern about the outcome of the Swiss national election in which the far-right Swiss People's Party received 27 percent of the vote and is demanding a major place in the governing cabinet.

"This vote is a telltale sign that xenophobia continues to be a problem in Europe," said Abraham H. Foxman, ADL National Director. "It points out what we were saying to Swiss leaders during the restitution discussions, that Switzerland must not only meet its financial responsibilities to survivors of the Holocaust but they must educate their people against racism and anti-Semitism."

The Swiss People's Party, which has made sizable gains in recent years, promotes an anti-foreigner agenda and isolationist positions including opposition to refugees and immigrants. The party's platform includes a call to reject Switzerland's participation in the United Nations and the European Union.

205 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:04:49pm

re: #200 baldeagle

Except the ammunition must be kept in sealed in tins, which is a crime to open if not ordered to do so by a commanding officer if I recall correctly. So they can't be used to defend against home invasion .

206 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:04:56pm

re: #199 Gus 802

The xenophobic political parties in europe, all across the continent, are gaing ground. That's not a good sign of things to come, imo.

207 tokyobk  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:05:03pm

re: #202 Cato the Elder

No religion is being targeted. An architecture style that fits the surroundings in Switzerland like my fist fits your eye has been restricted.

Where's the controversy?

Cato, respectfully, puhleeze. This is all about Islam as the people pushing it have said explicitly. Why does the poster also have a burka clad lady on it.

208 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:05:42pm

re: #202 Cato the Elder

No religion is being targeted. An architecture style that fits the surroundings in Switzerland like my fist fits your eye has been restricted.

Where's the controversy?

Then why exactly does the bill not say what you're claiming? Show me the words "architectural style" anywhere in the bill and you may have a chance.

209 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:05:46pm

re: #205 McSpiff

Except the ammunition must be kept in sealed in tins, which is a crime to open if not ordered to do so by a commanding officer if I recall correctly. So they can't be used to defend against home invasion .

'Well, officer, he had his gun loaded, so I assumed there had been an order I missed, because of being asleep. So I loaded mine, and shot him. Was I mistaken?'

210 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:05:56pm

Sorry- gaining. PIMF

211 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:05:56pm

re: #206 Sharmuta

The xenophobic political parties in europe, all across the continent, are gaing ground. That's not a good sign of things to come, imo.

This is a reflection of their ascension. It will not bode well in the end.

212 Earth56  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:07:39pm

re: #125 dugmartsch

Right, this is all about building safety. We're all very concerned about the threat that poorly constructed minarets pose to the children.

Restrictions of some sort? Banning the building of perfectly well designed buildings on private property because you don't like someone's religion.

I'll say it again. I though you were conservatives. In what conservative worldview does the government tell you what you can build on private property.

I live in New England and YES there are restrictions on what can be built. I don't like govt. on my back anymore than you but in the case of building a Mega Mansion or what some people consider as a house versus a factory next to a row of antique houses than I'm for restrictions.

213 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:08:36pm

re: #197 MandyManners

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Something else I found while searching.

IN A move widely seen to be bowing to Muslim pressure, Bolton Council has scrapped its Holocaust Memorial Day event.

The council is to replace it with a Genocide Memorial Day in June. This is in line with the policy of the Muslim Council of Britain, which continues to boycott HMD and is asking for a Genocide Day, which will also mark “the ongoing genocide and human rights abuses of Palestinians” by Israelis.

The council decision was made in consultation with the town’s Interfaith Council.

But Rabbi Joseph Lever of United Synagogue who has participated in the Bolton event for around three years was not consulted on the decision. He said: “I mourn the fact that the Holocaust Memorial Day event will not take place in Bolton this year.”

Louis Rapaport, president of the Jewish Representative Council of Greater Manchester, was equally disappointed that the Jewish community was not consulted.


SNIP

214 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:09:09pm

re: #209 SanFranciscoZionist

Open rifle locker, open tins, possibly assemble rifle, load rifle, shoot. This is not the process I think most Americans go through when defending against a home invasion was more my point. The system is a little different.

215 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:09:50pm

re: #206 Sharmuta

The xenophobic political parties in europe, all across the continent, are gaing ground. That's not a good sign of things to come, imo.

Europe will explode in our lifetime or certainly the next...Islam vs everybody else

216 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:10:09pm

re: #214 McSpiff

Open rifle locker, open tins, possibly assemble rifle, load rifle, shoot. This is not the process I think most Americans go through when defending against a home invasion was more my point. The system is a little different.

I was kidding. Just trying to think of a way around the rules.

I think they used to all be required to have pikes, which are easier to get ready, but that was a long time ago.

217 SixDegrees  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:10:29pm

re: #205 McSpiff

Except the ammunition must be kept in sealed in tins, which is a crime to open if not ordered to do so by a commanding officer if I recall correctly. So they can't be used to defend against home invasion .

True. But private gun ownership and membership in target shooting clubs and other gun organizations is huge in Switzerland. Even if you eliminate the military-supplied hardware, I'd guess that on a per capita basis, Switzerland has more gun owners than the US. And they also know how to use their weapons really, really well.

218 tokyobk  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:10:53pm

The thing that conflicts me is that I do believe that Islam needs a push-back in its truth claims, that as an ummah, it is has stepped over the lines where the freedom of religion becomes the need to protect freedom from religion, and in some cases is plain dangerous. Western racism was a time dangerous to all inhabitants to planet earth and there was a global push-back, and this period is one where the conflicts within Islam are spilling over to all societies from Europe to the Philippines.

So I cannot feel totally bad about the ban of the burkha or minaret though in the US they would be totally unacceptable legally, for good reason.

219 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:11:23pm

re: #208 McSpiff

Then why exactly does the bill not say what you're claiming? Show me the words "architectural style" anywhere in the bill and you may have a chance.

Quote from Charles's link:

"The Federal Council (government) respects this decision. Consequently the construction of new minarets in Switzerland is no longer permitted."

Not mosques - m-i-n-a-r-e-t-s. A minaret is an architectural element, not a house of worship. Are you really this dense?

220 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:11:49pm

re: #214 McSpiff

Open rifle locker, open tins, possibly assemble rifle, load rifle, shoot. This is not the process I think most Americans go through when defending against a home invasion was more my point. The system is a little different.

my shotgun is at the head of my bed, ready to go...just push the safty off and let fly...in the morning I dechamber one round tho

221 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:12:48pm

re: #217 SixDegrees

It's totally true. And the training is superb. So its not just a well armed populace, its a well trained one.

222 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:13:39pm

I'm waiting for someone to call me an "Islamophobe".

If supporting a democratic people's right to ban an intrusive, alien style of architecture makes me an Islamophobe, I plead guilty.

223 Jeff In Ohio  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:14:20pm

re: #219 Cato the Elder

Can't speak for him, but you had me a digging a well, er the natives will be intimidated, I mean they hate Christians in Saudi Arabia. Did you get the cheese I sent?

224 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:14:39pm

re: #222 Cato the Elder

What about the rights of the minority?

225 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:14:47pm

re: #217 SixDegrees

Ever seem Californians shoot?

226 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:14:51pm

re: #219 Cato the Elder

Not mosques - m-i-n-a-r-e-t-s. A minaret is an architectural element, not a house of worship. Are you really this dense?

Oh, I guess we were mistaken.

This was an architectural design campaign.

Right.

227 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:15:23pm

re: #224 Sharmuta

What about the rights of the minority?

in this case, too bad

228 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:15:49pm

re: #227 albusteve

in this case, too bad

I guess...

229 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:15:52pm

re: #227 albusteve

in this case, too bad

What he said.

230 SixDegrees  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:16:48pm

re: #218 tokyobk

The thing that conflicts me is that I do believe that Islam needs a push-back in its truth claims, that as an ummah, it is has stepped over the lines where the freedom of religion becomes the need to protect freedom from religion, and in some cases is plain dangerous. Western racism was a time dangerous to all inhabitants to planet earth and there was a global push-back, and this period is one where the conflicts within Islam are spilling over to all societies from Europe to the Philippines.

So I cannot feel totally bad about the ban of the burkha or minaret though in the US they would be totally unacceptable legally, for good reason.

To expand a bit: note that the West's issues with racism (and theocracy, in the more distant past) were recognized and resolved from within - not through the application of any external coercion. The same will certainly have to take place with Islam; it will have to have it's own equivalent of the Enlightenment or the Civil Rights Movement internally before real, substantive change takes place.

231 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:17:05pm

re: #226 Gus 802

Oh, I guess we were mistaken.

This was an architectural design campaign.

Right.

OK, so maybe a little fear over Iran's missiles played a role.

So much the better.

232 Gang of One  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:17:15pm

re: #218 tokyobk

... Western racism was a time dangerous to all inhabitants to planet earth ...

Just and only Western racism? Did the West invent this or any other type of racism?
/Not sure what to make of this statement Tokyo.

233 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:17:32pm

re: #226 Gus 802

Oh, I guess we were mistaken.

This was an architectural design campaign.

Right.

kind of a nasty poster, but that's beside the point...the vote was for or against towering minarets

234 Gang of One  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:18:50pm

re: #224 Sharmuta

What about the rights of the minority?

Like the minority that did not vote for Obama? Sometimes the majority wins.

235 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:19:46pm

re: #233 albusteve

kind of a nasty poster, but that's beside the point...the vote was for or against towering minarets

Towering minarets nothing, look at the size of that woman!

It's the new Islamofascist secret weapon, women the size of minarets with evil in their eyes!

/

236 dugmartsch  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:20:02pm

re: #212 Earth56

I live in New England and YES there are restrictions on what can be built. I don't like govt. on my back anymore than you but in the case of building a Mega Mansion or what some people consider as a house versus a factory next to a row of antique houses than I'm for restrictions.

Good for you?

How does that have anything to do with preventing the building of buildings because you disagree with their religion? This is a national ban. It has nothing to do with aesthetics, or quality of life, or property values, or anything you could use to make a good faith claim on behalf of the public good. This is xenophobia and anti-muslim backlash.

237 Varek Raith  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:20:22pm

re: #235 Obdicut

Towering minarets nothing, look at the size of that woman!

It's the new Islamofascist secret weapon, women the size of minarets with evil in their eyes!

/

Do they also have eye beams?
/:)

238 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:20:54pm

re: #234 Gang of One

Like the minority that did not vote for Obama? Sometimes the majority wins.

Non-Obama votes haven't had their rights infringed upon, so I fail to see how that's a good analogy.

239 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:21:25pm

re: #233 albusteve

kind of a nasty poster, but that's beside the point...the vote was for or against towering minarets

There are four minarets in Switzerland. 4.

Towering? Here's one:

Image: File:Moschee_Wangen_bei_Olten.jpg

Doesn't look towering to me.

And this initiaative was promoted by the far-right Swiss People's Party.

And it's being applauded at Vdare and other far-right blogs.

240 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:21:46pm

re: #219 Cato the Elder

Its an architectural element only used on the houses of worship of a single religion. You don't see any connection there? And the campaign against it wasn't about architecture, it was about religion as #226 just showed you.

If you think of Islam as being alien to europe, thats fine. But there are muslim families who have been european for hundreds of years longer than my family has been Canadian. So yes, I do respect their right to buy private land, and erect their houses of worship in accordance to the rules that all buildings must adhere to. If the law says "all buildings must look swiss" so be it. But to single out these groups as somehow alien or foreign and restrict them in this way in my mind is the same line of thinking that led to the creation of jewish ghettos. Apparently the people of Switzerland disagree. So be it.

241 Jeff In Ohio  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:21:56pm

re: #231 Cato the Elder

So let's see:
well digging
natives are afeared
Saudi's don't like Christians
architectural homogeneity
majority rules
Iran's got some missiles

did I miss one, because your making a compelling case for Swiss xenophobia.

242 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:22:18pm

re: #236 dugmartsch

This is xenophobia and anti-muslim backlash.

Backlash? To listen to you, you'd thing there was nothing to lash back against. So what the hell are you talking about?

243 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:22:19pm

Here's another one.

Image: File:Mahmud_Moschee1.jpg

lol What a joke. Look at that thing. It's not towering.

244 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:22:52pm

re: #236 dugmartsch

Good for you?

How does that have anything to do with preventing the building of buildings because you disagree with their religion? This is a national ban. It has nothing to do with aesthetics, or quality of life, or property values, or anything you could use to make a good faith claim on behalf of the public good. This is xenophobia and anti-muslim backlash.

may be...so what?...people don't want the minarets, you can blow all you want about phobias, but it won't change the vote...probably make it worse imo...why would you want to do that?

245 tokyobk  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:23:13pm

re: #232 Gang of One

I think it is fair to say that Western racism at a time was more dangerous than other types of prejudice but of course it is not the only kind -- witness the horrifying article today on African albinos. And as SixDegrees mentions, there was also anti-racism within the West that took over and is now the unquestioned norm. (BNP on the horizon?)

Islam, which really has since its birth been the West's main rival for The Truth is pushing us into a new paradigm (which many western liberals have yet to catch up with) wherein it is not bad West over the innocent, victimized world. Islam is quite confident of its claims to superiority, and this is becoming a problem, which is why when it is checked I cannot feel entirely bad.

246 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:23:16pm

re: #243 Gus 802

ha! Real threat to a nations identity there, oh my.
///

247 SixDegrees  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:23:33pm

re: #234 Gang of One

Like the minority that did not vote for Obama? Sometimes the majority wins.

And sometimes, the majority can be tyrannical, an early criticism of pure Democracy raised by the Greeks.

If it hadn't been for representatives in government overriding the will of the majority, we'd likely still have slaves today, and it's a certainty that blacks would still have their own drinking fountains, bathrooms and would be sitting in the back of the bus. Women wouldn't vote, and certainly wouldn't be wearing pants.

The whole point of representative Democracies is to protect the rights of minorities, not subvert them.

248 Varek Raith  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:23:49pm

re: #239 Gus 802

re: #243 Gus 802

Wow, those really are 'towering'... slightly above a telephone pole.

249 Gang of One  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:24:00pm

re: #238 Sharmuta

Non-Obama votes haven't had their rights infringed upon, so I fail to see how that's a good analogy.

I suppose because the minority have not been denied the right to worship as Moslems.

250 Racer X  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:24:37pm

re: #243 Gus 802

Here's another one.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

lol What a joke. Look at that thing. It's not towering.

Why does it look like a missile?

251 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:24:38pm

Opposition to Minaret Ban:

Religious organizations

Catholic bishops oppose a minaret ban. The bishops said in a joint statement that a ban would hinder interreligious dialogue and added that the construction and operation of minarets were already regulated by Swiss building codes. "Our request for the initiative to be rejected is based on our Christian values and the democratic principles in our country." The official journal of the Catholic Church in Switzerland publishes a series of articles on the minaret controversy. The Federation of Swiss Protestant Churches holds that the popular initiative is not about minarets, but is rather an expression of the initiators’ concern and fear of Islam. It views a minaret ban as a wrong approach to overcome such objections. Many other religious organizations find the idea of a complete minaret ban as lamentable. These are: the Association of Evangelical Free Churches and Communities in Switzerland; the Swiss Evangelical Alliance; the Old Catholic Church in Switzerland; the Covenant of Swiss Baptists; the Salvation Army; the Federation of Evangelical Lutheran Churches in Switzerland; the Orthodox Diocese the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople; the Serbian Orthodox Church in Switzerland; and the Anglican Church in Switzerland.

252 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:24:52pm

I suppose next you'll all be mewling because every building in Jerusalem has to be faced with local stone.

253 Gang of One  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:25:25pm

re: #245 tokyobk

I think it is fair to say that Western racism at a time was more dangerous than other types of prejudice but of course it is not the only kind -- witness the horrifying article today on African albinos. And as SixDegrees mentions, there was also anti-racism within the West that took over and is now the unquestioned norm. (BNP on the horizon?)

Islam, which really has since its birth been the West's main rival for The Truth is pushing us into a new paradigm (which many western liberals have yet to catch up with) wherein it is not bad West over the innocent, victimized world. Islam is quite confident of its claims to superiority, and this is becoming a problem, which is why when it is checked I cannot feel entirely bad.

Fair enough.

254 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:25:34pm

re: #250 Racer X

Why does it look like a missile?

Probably because of cheap construction.

255 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:25:35pm

re: #252 Cato the Elder

You dont see any difference between "Every building" and "muslim houses of worship"?

256 Boogberg  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:25:41pm

No reports of minaret violence yet.

257 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:26:08pm

I really fail to see how the rights of any minority anywhere include the "right" to a certain type of tower.

Must be time for me to take a break.

258 Earth56  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:26:16pm

re: #236 dugmartsch

Good for you?

How does that have anything to do with preventing the building of buildings because you disagree with their religion? This is a national ban. It has nothing to do with aesthetics, or quality of life, or property values, or anything you could use to make a good faith claim on behalf of the public good. This is xenophobia and anti-muslim backlash.


I was answering your last question and nothing more

" I'll say it again. I though you were conservatives. In what conservative worldview does the government tell you what you can build on private property"

259 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:26:47pm

re: #257 Cato the Elder

I really fail to see how the rights of any minority anywhere include the "right" to a certain type of tower.

Must be time for me to take a break.

Right. We'll leave the "rights" for KSM.

260 Gang of One  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:27:35pm

re: #247 SixDegrees

And sometimes, the majority can be tyrannical, an early criticism of pure Democracy raised by the Greeks.

If it hadn't been for representatives in government overriding the will of the majority, we'd likely still have slaves today, and it's a certainty that blacks would still have their own drinking fountains, bathrooms and would be sitting in the back of the bus. Women wouldn't vote, and certainly wouldn't be wearing pants.

The whole point of representative Democracies is to protect the rights of minorities, not subvert them.

I understand the pros and cons of direct versus indirect democracy. But I fail to see where any rights have been denied. If the Moslems have a right to place a minaret next to their mosque and they are a minority, does not the majority have the right to not have a minaret?

261 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:28:03pm

re: #255 McSpiff

You dont see any difference between "Every building" and "muslim houses of worship"?

No Muslim houses of worship were banned in the banning of minarets.

262 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:29:02pm

re: #239 Gus 802

There are four minarets in Switzerland. 4.

Towering? Here's one:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Doesn't look towering to me.

And this initiaative was promoted by the far-right Swiss People's Party.

And it's being applauded at Vdare and other far-right blogs.

Euro-fascist incrementalism.

263 Athens Runaway  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:29:43pm

re: #235 Obdicut

Towering minarets nothing, look at the size of that woman!

It's the new Islamofascist secret weapon, women the size of minarets with evil in their eyes!

/

Attack of the 50 Foot Immigrant!!

/videos found in Lou Dobbs' collection?

264 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:30:45pm

Just to be completely clear, you'd be accepting of banning christian churches from having steeples and bells?

265 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:31:21pm

re: #262 Sharmuta

Euro-fascist incrementalism.

Exactly.

From what I glanced over I doubt this will pass legal muster.

266 Gang of One  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:32:19pm

re: #264 McSpiff

Just to be completely clear, you'd be accepting of banning christian churches from having steeples and bells?

If the majority did not want them but left the freedom to build a church and worship in it intact, yes.

267 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:33:25pm

re: #66 Ojoe

Tit for Tat.

You cannot even bring a Bible into some countries.

An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth?

268 SixDegrees  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:33:41pm

re: #260 Gang of One

I understand the pros and cons of direct versus indirect democracy. But I fail to see where any rights have been denied. If the Moslems have a right to place a minaret next to their mosque and they are a minority, does not the majority have the right to not have a minaret?

When that prohibition is enacted for religious reasons, I find it odious in the extreme.

If they want to extend the ban to any towers that serve to call the faithful to prayer or to advertise their religious symbol over a wide area, I probably still wouldn't care much for it, but it wouldn't be nearly as objectionable as the suppression of one single religion's application.

On a purely practical level, I also don't see how this is supposed to solve anything. It strikes me that such a ban can only serve to make things worse by exacerbating tensions on both sides.

269 Earth56  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:34:17pm

I beleive in Ronald McDonald and I think that towns like Ridgefield Ct. and 200 other places in New England that don't allow 40 foot M's to be built next to my McDonalds is really a case of Ronaldphobia !

sarc/

270 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:34:24pm

re: #266 Gang of One

What's considered freedom to build? I and the majority of my country members don't really feel comfortable with churches as such... You can just worship in a private home tho right?

271 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:36:13pm

re: #269 Earth56

I beleive in Ronald McDonald and I think that towns like Ridgefield Ct. and 200 other places in New England that don't allow 40 foot M's to be built next to my McDonalds is really a case of Ronaldphobia !

sarc/

I was in Ridgefield yesterday, unfortunately for a funeral. What a cool little town it is. Classic New England!

272 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:36:29pm

re: #268 SixDegrees

On a purely practical level, I also don't see how this is supposed to solve anything. It strikes me that such a ban can only serve to make things worse by exacerbating tensions on both sides.

It's absolutely going to make things worse, because this initiative comes directly from the European far right. It's going to embolden the bigots, and it's going to further alienate Muslims. There's nothing good about this.

273 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:36:58pm

re: #268 SixDegrees

When that prohibition is enacted for religious reasons, I find it odious in the extreme.

If they want to extend the ban to any towers that serve to call the faithful to prayer or to advertise their religious symbol over a wide area, I probably still wouldn't care much for it, but it wouldn't be nearly as objectionable as the suppression of one single religion's application.

On a purely practical level, I also don't see how this is supposed to solve anything. It strikes me that such a ban can only serve to make things worse by exacerbating tensions on both sides.

yup, exactly...just another line drawn in the sand...all of Europe is watching this I'm sure...they have made their beds and now must sleep in them...if Europe is deIslamicized it will be bloody and civil rights are gonna take a huge hit...depends on who wants it more and how far they go to get it

274 dugmartsch  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:38:17pm

Those pictures are beautifure: #268 SixDegrees

When that prohibition is enacted for religious reasons, I find it odious in the extreme.

If they want to extend the ban to any towers that serve to call the faithful to prayer or to advertise their religious symbol over a wide area, I probably still wouldn't care much for it, but it wouldn't be nearly as objectionable as the suppression of one single religion's application.

On a purely practical level, I also don't see how this is supposed to solve anything. It strikes me that such a ban can only serve to make things worse by exacerbating tensions on both sides.

Exactly. This is childish, petty, authoritarian, vindictive and just plain stupid. I can't remember the last policy which accurately fit so many adjectives that had positive social results.

275 Earth56  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:38:19pm

re: #271 _RememberTonyC

I live down the road from Ridgefield but if you really like "Classic New England than take a drive up towards Litchfield County towards Cannan or Norfolk, especially during the fall season...beyond beautiful

276 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:38:28pm

Europe used its muslims strictly for cheap labor and made no bones about treating them as equals. I think their problems began there.

277 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:39:46pm

re: #275 Earth56

I live down the road from Ridgefield but if you really like "Classic New England than take a drive up towards Litchfield County towards Cannan or Norfolk, especially during the fall season...beyond beautiful

one of our two favorite restaurants is in Litchfield. it's called the West Street Grille. I have a funny feeling you've been there!

278 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:39:55pm

re: #275 Earth56

I live down the road from Ridgefield but if you really like "Classic New England than take a drive up towards Litchfield County towards Cannan or Norfolk, especially during the fall season...beyond beautiful

too many trees...you can't see far...I like the west myself

279 der_ich  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:40:42pm

I don't agree with the Swiss decision and I agree that the Swiss put much guilt on themselves when they did not help Jews and turned them away. But it is absurd and arrogant beyond belief to describe it as a "country that let everyone else in Europe do their fighting for them in World War". Did Sweden fight? Did Spain fight? Did much of France fight? It is very easy to call people cowards from a distance of 70 years and 10.000 km. If your country was tiny and had a military power next to it, which could easily destroy your country and kill many people, you might not have decided differently.

280 Earth56  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:41:09pm

re: #277 _RememberTonyC

one of our two favorite restaurants is in Litchfield. it's called the West Street Grille. I have a funny feeling you've been there!

Been there but try going to Norfolk Ct. as there are 3 great restaurants not to mention a great place to see live acts...whats the name ???

281 Gang of One  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:42:04pm

re: #268 SixDegrees

When that prohibition is enacted for religious reasons, I find it odious in the extreme.

If they want to extend the ban to any towers that serve to call the faithful to prayer or to advertise their religious symbol over a wide area, I probably still wouldn't care much for it, but it wouldn't be nearly as objectionable as the suppression of one single religion's application.

On a purely practical level, I also don't see how this is supposed to solve anything. It strikes me that such a ban can only serve to make things worse by exacerbating tensions on both sides.

I am not saying that there is no religious or cultural element to this. I am speaking about actual rights. None have been denied.

re: #270 McSpiff

What's considered freedom to build? I and the majority of my country members don't really feel comfortable with churches as such... You can just worship in a private home tho right?

Your question makes no sense. You have the right to pursue happiness, but you are not guaranteed a right to happiness. And you can worship own your own home as many do.

282 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:42:33pm

re: #280 Earth56

Been there but try going to Norfolk Ct. as there are 3 great restaurants not to mention a great place to see live acts...whats the name ???

is Norfolk near Kent and Cornwall ... northwest corner of the state?

283 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:43:32pm

re: #13 aristopheles

I remember telling my friends back around 2002 that the European political mainstream could either confront and deal with the problem of Islamism in Europe, or they could expect to see the resurgence of the fascists, who would be glad to propose solutions. I feel, by this date, that my point has been amply demonstrated by history, and not in the way I would have preferred.

Charles, I gather from your phrasing that you do not approve. Fair enough. You also carry a fair bit of weight as an observer and analyst. Have you written anything lately about your own proposed solutions to the problems of Islamic supremacist philosophy and practice in Europe?

Seems the fascists have proposed a solution, and it's passed.

284 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:43:33pm

re: #282 _RememberTonyC

is Norfolk near Kent and Cornwall ... northwest corner of the state?

the Infinity?...or something like that?

285 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:43:34pm

re: #276 _RememberTonyC

Europe used its muslims strictly for cheap labor and made no bones about treating them as equals. I think their problems began there.

Chickens coming home to roost?

286 Earth56  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:43:48pm

re: #278 albusteve

too many trees...you can't see far...I like the west myself


I have drivin thru 46 states and I love the West because of the open spaces especially Wyoming and Montana. Love driving the two lane highways to nowhere. The East is also beautiful because of the trees and its two different reasons to admire.

287 SixDegrees  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:44:15pm

re: #273 albusteve

yup, exactly...just another line drawn in the sand...all of Europe is watching this I'm sure...they have made their beds and now must sleep in them...if Europe is deIslamicized it will be bloody and civil rights are gonna take a huge hit...depends on who wants it more and how far they go to get it

One problem that seems to plague Europe is it's ongoing racism and bigotry. There's huge immigration throughout Europe, a lot of it from the Middle East, and it's encouraged because it provides workers that Europe's negative growth rate can't provide for itself. Similar to Mexico and the US. Europe, however, openly shoves it's (legal) immigrants into ghettos, makes them second-class citizens and provides no path for them to integrate into European society.

It strikes me that the solution is more forceful assimilation. Make sure their kids learn to speak English as their native language, and get indoctrinated into the culture in school and through association with native kids. Sell jeans to their women. Sell porn to their men. Let's face it: the West is pretty much irresistible - so long as it's presented properly.

288 Gang of One  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:44:33pm

re: #281 Gang of One

And you can worship own your own home as many do.

... in your own home ...
PIMF

289 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:44:38pm

re: #281 Gang of One

Your question makes no sense. You have the right to pursue happiness, but you are not guaranteed a right to happiness. And you can worship own your own home as many do.


Essentially I'm wondering if you think you have a right to a house of worship at all. Would it be acceptable to say that muslims can only worship in their homes? In groups of less than 20? etc.

290 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:45:46pm

re: #286 Earth56

I have drivin thru 46 states and I love the West because of the open spaces especially Wyoming and Montana. Love driving the two lane highways to nowhere. The East is also beautiful because of the trees and its two different reasons to admire.

I get back east once in a while...New Mexico is made for driving, no other state even compares for the remote, quality roads that go forever

291 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:46:10pm

re: #289 McSpiff

Essentially I'm wondering if you think you have a right to a house of worship at all. Would it be acceptable to say that muslims can only worship in their homes? In groups of less than 20? etc.

The Swiss banned mosques?

292 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:46:59pm

Even if this is ignored or repealed, damage has been done.

293 Earth56  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:47:17pm

re: #282 _RememberTonyC

is Norfolk near Kent and Cornwall ... northwest corner of the state?


Its about 13 miles east of Canaan Ct. and the place I was referring to for concerts is called.Infinity Hall
Great food by the way !

I prefer it up there because Fairfield County has become a bit too crowded and snootish.

294 Gang of One  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:48:49pm

re: #289 McSpiff

Essentially I'm wondering if you think you have a right to a house of worship at all. Would it be acceptable to say that muslims can only worship in their homes? In groups of less than 20? etc.

First Amendment -- the right to peaceably assemble, and that certainly includes worship, prayer, fellowship, etc. You have the right to worship. Period. No one has denied anyone the right to worship.

295 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:48:50pm

re: #285 MandyManners

Chickens coming home to roost?

jeremiah wright could not have said it better

296 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:49:38pm

re: #284 albusteve

the Infinity?...or something like that?

I don't get up there much ...

297 Earth56  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:50:46pm

re: #290 albusteve

I get back east once in a while...New Mexico is made for driving, no other state even compares for the remote, quality roads that go forever


A beautiful state I agree. Utah also, especially down south where all the national parks are. I did Route 66 and the Oatman Highway.

298 Boogberg  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:51:01pm

re: #279 der_ich

I don't agree with the Swiss decision and I agree that the Swiss put much guilt on themselves when they did not help Jews and turned them away. But it is absurd and arrogant beyond belief to describe it as a "country that let everyone else in Europe do their fighting for them in World War". Did Sweden fight? Did Spain fight? Did much of France fight? It is very easy to call people cowards from a distance of 70 years and 10.000 km. If your country was tiny and had a military power next to it, which could easily destroy your country and kill many people, you might not have decided differently.

Well there is a recent history of anti-Americanism in European and Scandinavian countries. You should expect some backlash when you make decisions like this minaret thing.

299 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:51:18pm

re: #291 MandyManners

Did I say that? Many people in this thread agree that you can place restrictions on a minority house of worship, above and beyond those that apply to other buildings. I'm simply wondering how far that line of logic goes. Would it be acceptable for the Swiss to ban mosques in their entirety? Does a minority religious group have a right to a construct of a house of worship solely for that purpose? Would a law banning mosques go too far? A 1,000 seat mosque? 100? Why can't muslims simply worship in the home of their Imam? All hypothetical, just wondering what Lizards think.

300 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:51:32pm

re: #296 _RememberTonyC

I don't get up there much ...

I have a good buddy in Bridgeport...we get around, the Infinity is a pretty cool music venue

301 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:52:02pm

re: #293 Earth56

Its about 13 miles east of Canaan Ct. and the place I was referring to for concerts is called.Infinity Hall
Great food by the way !

I prefer it up there because Fairfield County has become a bit too crowded and snootish.


Thanks for the info ... I will check out their website. If you try the West Street Grille in Litchfield, you will not be disappointed.

302 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:53:48pm

re: #299 McSpiff

But, they didn't ban mosques or limit the size thereof.

303 Earth56  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:54:08pm

re: #301 _RememberTonyC

Thanks for the info ... I will check out their website. If you try the West Street Grille in Litchfield, you will not be disappointed.


By the way..thanks for keeping Tony in our memorys alive. He was great guy. Are you from the Boston area ?

304 albusteve  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:55:06pm

re: #297 Earth56

A beautiful state I agree. Utah also, especially down south where all the national parks are. I did Route 66 and the Oatman Highway.

Utah is nice...for me Wyoming is my next favorite driving/scenery state

305 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:55:20pm

re: #302 MandyManners

Right, thats why I said hypothetical. I'm wondering what Lizards think about the questions I posed.

306 Gang of One  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:55:37pm

re: #298 Boogberg

Well there is a recent history of anti-Americanism in European and Scandinavian countries. You should expect some backlash when you make decisions like this minaret thing.

Anti-Americanism for a Swiss decision? Not sure I follow you ...

307 Gang of One  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:57:13pm

re: #299 McSpiff

Did I say that? Many people in this thread agree that you can place restrictions on a minority house of worship, above and beyond those that apply to other buildings. I'm simply wondering how far that line of logic goes. Would it be acceptable for the Swiss to ban mosques in their entirety? Does a minority religious group have a right to a construct of a house of worship solely for that purpose? Would a law banning mosques go too far? A 1,000 seat mosque? 100? Why can't muslims simply worship in the home of their Imam? All hypothetical, just wondering what Lizards think.

Again, nobody has denied the Moslems the right to worship nor to build a mosque. Fire codes can and do limit occupancy.

308 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:57:19pm

re: #305 McSpiff

I'm still pissed that Rock the Casbah has been yanked by YouTube.

309 Boogberg  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:57:52pm

re: #306 Gang of One

Anti-Americanism for a Swiss decision? Not sure I follow you ...

Well it could be a reason for Charles' harsh response. Not saying it is, but it could be.

310 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:58:56pm

re: #307 Gang of One

I fully admit the questions I posed do not reflect reality in any way. Simply looking for feedback. What, exactly, constitutes the right to worship?

311 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:59:21pm

re: #308 MandyManners

I'm still pissed that Rock the Casbah has been yanked by YouTube.

HA! Found another one.


[Link: www.wikio.com...]

312 Earth56  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 12:59:32pm

re: #304 albusteve

Utah is nice...for me Wyoming is my next favorite driving/scenery state

I once drove from Rapid City SD to Salt Lake City and took the back roads diagonally through Wyoming. Went through Atlantic City and South Pass which are two old mining communitys and a few Indian reservations. If you admire storm chasing than nothing beats the West as I hit a severe one in the middle of nowhere. Now that was a ride !

313 Gang of One  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:00:20pm

re: #309 Boogberg

Well it could be a reason for Charles' harsh response. Not saying it is, but it could be.

I see. I have no doubt that this will fan the flames, but whether or not one accepts the legitimacy of this vote, some within the Dar-ul-Harb will use it as an example of Islamophobia, blah, blah, blah. It seems to me to be like double-edged sword.

314 Gang of One  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:02:53pm

re: #310 McSpiff

I fully admit the questions I posed do not reflect reality in any way. Simply looking for feedback. What, exactly, constitutes the right to worship?

Surely you don't need me to explain that to you. Your right to worship ends at my right not to be threatened or harmed by your worship. Worship the devil, if you must, but your right to worship Satan ends where and when you choose to sacrifice an animal or human to your deity or deities.

315 Abdul Abulbul Amir  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:03:07pm
Switzerland, the country that let everyone else in Europe do their fighting for them in World War II...

And World War I, and the Franco-Prussian War. I don't know how sitting out a war means that you are letting others do the fighting for you. As to WWII, the Swiss being armed to the teeth in the mountains may have had something to do with Germany's decision not to invade.

316 Gang of One  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:03:27pm

re: #308 MandyManners

I'm still pissed that Rock the Casbah has been yanked by YouTube.

For true? No ...

317 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:03:53pm

re: #316 Gang of One

For true? No ...

Yep.

318 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:04:27pm

re: #314 Gang of One

Surely you don't need me to explain that to you. Your right to worship ends at my right not to be threatened or harmed by your worship. Worship the devil, if you must, but your right to worship Satan ends where and when you choose to sacrifice an animal or human to your deity or deities.

Aren't Santerians allowed to sacrifice animals?

319 Stuart Leviton  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:04:39pm
First they came for the minarets
but I did not speak up because ...
Then they came for the Menorahs...

Definition: minaret
1682, from Fr. minaret, from Turk. minare, from Arabic manarah, manarat "lamp, lighthouse, minaret," related to manar "candlestick," derivative of nar "fire."
Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2001 Douglas Harper

320 Gang of One  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:04:46pm

re: #313 Gang of One

I see. I have no doubt that this will fan the flames, but whether or not one accepts the legitimacy of this vote, some within the Dar-ul-Harb al-Islam will use it as an example of Islamophobia, blah, blah, blah. It seems to me to be like double-edged sword.

PIMF, again.

321 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:04:58pm

re: #314 Gang of One

How does sacrificing an animal harm you?

322 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:05:01pm
Switzerland, the country that let everyone else in Europe do their fighting for them in World War II and turned Jews over to the Nazis to save their own skins loot their bank accounts

FTFY

323 Gang of One  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:05:59pm

re: #318 MandyManners

Aren't Santerians allowed to sacrifice animals?

Not quite sure. I wonder if they get away with it as a form of ritual slaughter for food purposes, like kashrut or halal. And I thought about that when I hit the post button, Mandy.

324 SixDegrees  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:06:00pm

re: #318 MandyManners

Aren't Santerians allowed to sacrifice animals?

They are. So are Jews.

PETA doesn't care for it. But no one gives a shit about PETA.

325 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:06:12pm

re: #322 Alouette

FTFY

Weren't some rich Jews' looted property stored in Switzerland?

326 Boogberg  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:06:49pm

re: #317 MandyManners

Yep.

No, there's a link to it in the overnight thread. I played it! :D

327 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:07:03pm

re: #323 Gang of One

Not quite sure. I wonder if they get away with it as a form of ritual slaughter for food purposes, like kashrut or halal. And I thought about that when I hit the post button, Mandy.

I don't know about the food aspect.

328 Gang of One  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:07:19pm

re: #321 McSpiff

How does sacrificing an animal harm you?

Ask the animal.

329 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:07:32pm

re: #326 Boogberg

No, there's a link to it in the overnight thread. I played it! :D

Is it the one in No. 311?

330 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:07:40pm

re: #315 Abdul Abulbul Amir

Is that why they let the trains full of holocaust victims through unmolested, unquestioned? BTW the Soviets were armed to the teeth. That did not stop Hitler from opening a second front.

331 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:07:53pm

re: #324 SixDegrees

They are. So are Jews.

PETA doesn't care for it. But no one gives a shit about PETA.

I sure don't.

332 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:08:49pm

re: #325 MandyManners

Weren't some rich Jews' looted property stored in Switzerland?

Yes. Their bank accounts. The Swiss refuse to turn over the bank account information to the family survivors because they can't provide the official "proof of death" certificates.

333 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:08:50pm

re: #318 MandyManners

I sure hope not. Maybe food animals. When some Aztec wants a sacrifice I'm calling the cops.

334 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:09:28pm

re: #328 Gang of One

Ask the animal.

I would, but they can't speak. Or form complex thoughts like the concept of rights. Sure are tasty tho.

335 tradewind  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:11:20pm

I don't know, banning minarets? Seems like a mini-controversy.
Lots of style over substance. And there's plenty of substance to worry about.
In London, though, that ginormous mosque that's being planned in the shadow of the Olympic stadium is really going to cast a pall over the jolly olde English atmosphere that the organizers of the games are hoping to project. There are numerous websites springing up against its construction... wonder who is going to win in that one.

336 SixDegrees  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:11:46pm

re: #334 McSpiff

I would, but they can't speak. Or form complex thoughts like the concept of rights. Sure are tasty tho.

Some are, some not so much. Seal, for example, is extremely nasty.

337 Gang of One  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:12:27pm

re: #334 McSpiff

I would, but they can't speak. Or form complex thoughts like the concept of rights. Sure are tasty tho.

I suppose what I'm getting at is that aside from slaughtering an animal for food, any kind of ritual that harms an animal would be considered abuse and is illegal.
BAck in the 70s, I went to high school right of CPW in Manhattan. We found many a sacrificed bird or goat in the rocks off the Bridle Path.

338 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:12:54pm

re: #332 Alouette

Yes. Their bank accounts. The Swiss refuse to turn over the bank account information to the family survivors because they can't provide the official "proof of death" certificates.

How convenient.

Do the Swiss still have the cash and property?

339 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:13:19pm

re: #333 Rightwingconspirator

I sure hope not. Maybe food animals. When some Aztec wants a sacrifice I'm calling the cops.

Are there any left?

340 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:13:37pm

re: #336 SixDegrees

Odd you mention that. A friend of mine was saying just friday that she loves seal flipper pie. Sounded horrible to me.

341 Gang of One  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:13:41pm

re: #339 MandyManners

Are there any left?

Cops or Aztecs?

342 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:14:28pm

re: #326 Boogberg

No, there's a link to it in the overnight thread. I played it! :D

I found the post but embedding was denied.

343 tradewind  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:14:32pm

Oh, there's a newer thread on...climategate controversy.
Nothing like a fresh topic!///

344 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:14:48pm

re: #341 Gang of One

Cops or Aztecs?

Latter.

345 Boogberg  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:15:05pm

re: #329 MandyManners

Is it the one in No. 311?

No, #107.

Rock da Casbah:D

346 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:15:06pm

re: #343 tradewind

Oh, there's a newer thread on...climategate controversy.
Nothing like a fresh topic!///

Can we just hang out here for a bit? Sigh.

347 Gang of One  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:15:33pm

re: #339 MandyManners

Are there any left?

Just for you, my dear.

348 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:16:00pm

re: #345 Boogberg

No, #107.

Rock da Casbah:D

Embedding disabled by request.

349 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:16:38pm

re: #347 Gang of One

Just for you, my dear.

Dancing Aztecs?

350 tradewind  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:16:55pm

re: #332 Alouette
So tempted to ask what they would accept, but that would be in really bad taste.
The bastards.

351 Boogberg  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:17:17pm

re: #348 MandyManners

Embedding disabled by request.

Click "play on youtube"

352 SixDegrees  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:17:25pm

re: #340 McSpiff

Odd you mention that. A friend of mine was saying just friday that she loves seal flipper pie. Sounded horrible to me.

Oh, God - that's what I had, as a matter of fact, and it's the only thing I've ever encountered that I simply could not bring myself to eat, although I did manage to force down two small bites before pushing it away. It comes in a crust, and when you break the crust a smell comes wafting out that...well, have you ever been to the beach in the middle of summer on a really hot day, at low tide several hours after a big storm? Yeah, it's like that. That's what it tastes like, too.

I'm convinced it's the Canadian equivalent of Prairie Oysters, served to unsuspecting tourist with much snickering back in the kitchen.

353 tradewind  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:17:58pm

re: #340 McSpiff
That is just wrong, on so many levels.

354 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:18:23pm

re: #338 MandyManners

How convenient.

Do the Swiss still have the cash and property?

Yep. They have specific requirements for heirs to be able to claim property, in order to "safeguard the confidientiality of their clients" which includes official government-issued "death certificate" and notarized witnesses who were present at the deathbed in order to prove that the bank account owner is really deceased and didn't just decide to "disappear" and assume a new identity.

355 Gang of One  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:18:23pm

re: #349 MandyManners

Dancing Aztecs?

Are there any other kind?
These guys used to wake me up with their bells, flutes and drums on Sunday mornings. I lived about three blocks away from the Zocalo on Avenida Bolivar.

356 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:18:35pm

re: #351 Boogberg

Click "play on youtube"

*smooch*

357 tradewind  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:18:55pm

re: #346 McSpiff
That's my plan, since I got nuthin' for upthread.

358 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:19:03pm

re: #352 SixDegrees

Ha she also loved prairie oysters! So you're saying i just shouldn't take food suggestions from her.

359 Boogberg  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:19:11pm

re: #356 MandyManners

*smooch*

:D

360 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:19:23pm

re: #354 Alouette

Yep. They have specific requirements for heirs to be able to claim property, in order to "safeguard the confidientiality of their clients" which includes official government-issued "death certificate" and notarized witnesses who were present at the deathbed in order to prove that the bank account owner is really deceased and didn't just decide to "disappear" and assume a new identity.

No seven-year law?

361 SixDegrees  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:19:47pm

re: #358 McSpiff

Ha she also loved prairie oysters! So you're saying i just shouldn't take food suggestions from her.

Does she like to snipe hunt, too?

362 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:19:54pm

re: #355 Gang of One

Are there any other kind?
These guys used to wake me up with their bells, flutes and drums on Sunday mornings. I lived about three blocks away from the Zocalo on Avenida Bolivar.

They don't do human sacrifices anymore, do they?

363 Gang of One  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:20:22pm

re: #362 MandyManners

They don't do human sacrifices anymore, do they?

Not that I know of.

364 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:20:36pm

Now I'm thinking about Rocky Mountain oysters. Thanks, Lizards.

365 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:21:15pm

re: #303 Earth56

By the way..thanks for keeping Tony in our memorys alive. He was great guy. Are you from the Boston area ?

yes ... Brockton, MA ... His autographed photo hangs proudly in my office!

366 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:22:16pm

re: #349 MandyManners

Dancing Aztecs?

Dancing Aztecs

367 tradewind  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:22:19pm

re: #364 MandyManners
Who filled your head with that bull?

368 SixDegrees  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:23:01pm

re: #362 MandyManners

They don't do human sacrifices anymore, do they?

Well, no one's reported any...

369 McSpiff  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:23:46pm

re: #361 SixDegrees

I dont know what that is, and I'm not sure I want to...

370 SixDegrees  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:24:46pm

re: #369 McSpiff

I dont know what that is, and I'm not sure I want to...

If she ever asks you to go snipe hunting, find something else to do.

371 tradewind  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:26:15pm

Wow.. lawhawk just posted that the Israelis are freeing 998 Pals for Gilad.
Not that he's not worth a hundred thousand of 'em, but they should get him back and then send exactly one Pal back home.

372 SixDegrees  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:28:52pm

re: #371 tradewind

Wow.. lawhawk just posted that the Israelis are freeing 998 Pals for Gilad.
Not that he's not worth a hundred thousand of 'em, but they should get him back and then send exactly one Pal back home.

I've never understood such demands from the Palestinians. "Hey, look everybody - one Jew is worth a thousand of us! Ain't that great?"

It just doesn't seem like the kind of message I'd want to be sending.

373 tradewind  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:30:48pm

re: #372 SixDegrees
No one ever accused them of being rational thinkers.

374 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:31:06pm

re: #372 SixDegrees

I've never understood such demands from the Palestinians. "Hey, look everybody - one Jew is worth a thousand of us! Ain't that great?"

It just doesn't seem like the kind of message I'd want to be sending.

the message I am getting is this one: terrorism works. and if the IAF and IDF don't immediately make the hamassholes pay (as son as Shalit is safely back), they'll be looking at more of these "trades."

375 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:32:19pm

re: #371 tradewind

Wow.. lawhawk just posted that the Israelis are freeing 998 Pals for Gilad.
Not that he's not worth a hundred thousand of 'em, but they should get him back and then send exactly one Pal back home.

He's coming home?

376 tradewind  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:32:25pm

re: #374 _RememberTonyC
They should immediately take or expel 998 more. I realize that they would be opening themselves up to more kidnappings and retaliation, but that's going to happen anyway. Teach them at least one lesson after Shalit is home.

377 tradewind  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:33:15pm

re: #375 MandyManners
Many a slip between the report and the release, but that is the report: they will release him in exchange for 998 Pal terrorists.

378 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:34:00pm

re: #371 tradewind

Wow.. lawhawk just posted that the Israelis are freeing 998 Pals for Gilad.
Not that he's not worth a hundred thousand of 'em, but they should get him back and then send exactly one Pal back home.

I don't see that on his blog.

379 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:34:49pm

re: #372 SixDegrees

I've never understood such demands from the Palestinians. "Hey, look everybody - one Jew is worth a thousand of us! Ain't that great?"

It just doesn't seem like the kind of message I'd want to be sending.

No then they complain, "Jews are racist! They claim one Jew is worth 1,000 Palestinians" when they are the ones who set that value.

380 tradewind  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:36:07pm

re: #375 MandyManners
[Link: www.jpost.com...]
There is a rumor that Barghouti is among the Pals to be freed.
Ugh.

381 tradewind  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:36:24pm

re: #378 MandyManners
He posted a link on LGF.

382 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:36:47pm

re: #380 tradewind

[Link: www.jpost.com...]
There is a rumor that Barghouti is among the Pals to be freed.
Ugh.

Marwan?

383 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:37:47pm

re: #381 tradewind

He posted a link on LGF.

I didn't see it.

384 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:37:48pm

re: #382 MandyManners

Marwan?

i heard that too ... he is considered a possible successor to abbas.

385 tradewind  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:38:05pm

re: #379 Alouette
"Our sons are not terrorists" (nah, not much)... read it and gag..
[Link: desertpeace.wordpress.com...]

386 Boogberg  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:38:05pm

re: #374 _RememberTonyC

the message I am getting is this one: terrorism works. and if the IAF and IDF don't immediately make the hamassholes pay (as son as Shalit is safely back), they'll be looking at more of these "trades."

The Israelis are at a definite disadvantage here. I'm sure they're taking steps to prevent their guys from getting snatched in the first place.

387 tradewind  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:39:34pm

re: #382 MandyManners
You bet'cha... and I don't think they're talking about the villain from 24.

388 tradewind  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:41:24pm
There is no doubt that the Islamic liberation group, Hamas, would be the main winner in any prospective prisoner-swap accord with Israel.


From the link above. This makes me sick.

389 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:42:00pm

re: #386 Boogberg

The Israelis are at a definite disadvantage here. I'm sure they're taking steps to prevent their guys from getting snatched in the first place.

no question about that. but a message should be sent AFTER Shalit is home. something like a series of pinpoint bombings on hamas targets. just a little calling card for the scumbags.

390 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:43:03pm

I went to school with Hussein Barghouti. Really nice guy.

391 tradewind  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:45:16pm

re: #390 MandyManners
The same family?

392 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:46:33pm

re: #391 tradewind

The same family?

Yep.

393 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:47:25pm

re: #391 tradewind

We didn't have classes together. We hung out together at the Hub.

394 tradewind  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:49:48pm

re: #393 MandyManners
Wow. Closest brush I ever had with that was one of my roommates in NoLa ( after college ) dating Carlos Marcellos, Jr. He was pretty nice, too.
:)

395 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:54:38pm

re: #394 tradewind

Wow. Closest brush I ever had with that was one of my roommates in NoLa ( after college ) dating Carlos Marcellos, Jr. He was pretty nice, too.
:)

I had no idea how mobbed-up New Orleans was until I read James Lee Burke.

396 tradewind  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:57:13pm

re: #395 MandyManners
Back then, I was so dumb that I had no idea he had any connections or who his father was. I couldn't understand why my Dad was so freaked out that she was dating him. Looking back at the four years I lived there, yeah... it was super mob city.

397 tradewind  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 1:58:18pm

Back to straining stock.
More boring than watching paint dry, but at least you end up with soup.

398 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:01:26pm

I spent an afternoon drinking with OJ Simpson at the 1992 Olympics in Barcelona. That was the "pre murder OJ," who was a MAJOR blast to hang out with.

399 der_ich  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:03:40pm

re: #298 Boogberg

Well Scandinavian countries are European countries - why "and"? Switzerland did never strike me as the country leading European anti-Americanism. In any case one is always responsible for one's own prejudices. That some European states are stupid does not justify cheap shots in the other direction.

400 Bagua  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:05:30pm

re: #90 sagehen

So unique they've got two languages, neither of which is called "Swiss."[...]


Switzerland comprises three main linguistic and cultural regions: German, French, and Italian, to which are added the Romansh-speaking valley

401 AK-47%  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:08:44pm

Although Switzerland was militarily neutral in WWII, it was economically on the side of the Axis, although it had little choice, being surrounded by Axis territory.

But for that, the US once "accidentally" bombed the Swiss city of Schaffhausen on the German border, mostly as a warning to curtail shipments of strategic supplies to Germany, otherwise we might have had to to aim for some other German border towns and "accidentally" bomb Basel...

They stopped.

But one thing: America can breathe easier for a while, jihadists all over the world are going to be whipping up anti-Swiss sentiment and headed for the Alps with their plastic explosives to teach them a lesson on respecting The Prophet...

But they picked this fight, let them deal with it in their inimitable fashion.

Funny that a nation renowned for its military neutrality has just become a front-line state in the war against Radical Islam.

402 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:09:32pm

re: #390 MandyManners

I went to school with Hussein Barghouti. Really nice guy.

i seem to recall reading sometime back that marwan barghouti was somewhat mellowed by his time in prison and that when he was eventually released, he might be just the guy to lead the palestinians and make peace with Israel because he had the necessary "street cred" as a result of his time in an Israeli prison.

403 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:12:04pm

re: #402 _RememberTonyC

i seem to recall reading sometime back that marwan barghouti was somewhat mellowed by his time in prison and that when he was eventually released, he might be just the guy to lead the palestinians and make peace with Israel because he had the necessary "street cred" as a result of his time in an Israeli prison.

He's a killer and is serving five life sentences.

404 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:13:56pm

re: #403 MandyManners

He's a killer and is serving five life sentences.

I admit that the bar is set pretty low when it comes to "what constitutes a pelestinian moderate?" But here's a quick little piece on barghouti with some interesting stuff in it:

[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

405 der_ich  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:17:32pm

The logic behind banning those minarets is, that they are seen as an imperialistic symbol of Islam. If Islam means surrender or submit - those minarets are seen as a sign that the area is already surrendering or at least should do so. Sadly of course this kind of understanding of minarets is exactly the same as the understanding by the Islamists. The Swiss people decided by this vote that they agree with the interpretation of the Islamists and not the one of normal Muslims.

On a different level than the obvious: that banning minarets means an unjust limitation of freedom of religion the real issue is that this decision overshadows the real problems of Swiss-Islam relations.

The very same state that makes deals with Iran, that has its Foreign Minister wear a head scarf, that succumbs to pressure of the likes of Gaddafi now makes this useless symbolic policy while doing nothing to fight the worst Islamists: on the contrary: tries to do them nice.

406 gadlaw  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:20:57pm

re: #30 Cato the Elder

Maybe the Swiss will reconsider when the Saudis allow church spires.

There's this little thing called reciprocity which the West seems to have forgotten all about.

I shall make sure to spend some time and money in Switzerland on my next trip to Europe.

What he said. Exact reciprocity everywhere when it comes to the Religion of Peace and it's adherents seems fair enough to me. Having Freedom of religion makes no sense when the freedom you're giving to others would be in no way allowed under the religions you are curbing.

407 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:22:17pm

re: #404 _RememberTonyC

I admit that the bar is set pretty low when it comes to "what constitutes a pelestinian moderate?" But here's a quick little piece on barghouti with some interesting stuff in it:

[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

Unite Fatah and Hamas? Yeah, like that would help the Israelis.

408 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:26:40pm

re: #380 tradewind

[Link: www.jpost.com...]
There is a rumor that Barghouti is among the Pals to be freed.
Ugh.

I doubt it. Hamas is holding Shalit. They do not give a shit about Barghouti.

409 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:28:15pm

re: #407 MandyManners

Unite Fatah and Hamas? Yeah, like that would help the Israelis.

Mandy ... That was the opinion of the author and some Israelis ... not me. My opinion is that neither fatah or hamas is a reliable partner and a civil war between the two is necessary before the palestinians can even contemplate talking real peace with Israel.

410 der_ich  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:29:54pm

re: #44 Sharmuta

According to your logic: Disallowing torture is helping criminals. Giving them a fair trial is helping criminals. Not spying and collecting data on every citizen is helping criminals. Having gun laws is helping criminals.

Switzerland simply limits the power of the government to know everything about the citizens' money. That's it. Every freedom has downsides. And it is on the people to decide what they prefer.

411 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:32:29pm

re: #408 Alouette

I doubt it. Hamas is holding Shalit. They do not give a shit about Barghouti.

but hamas apparently RESPECTS barghouti. see the link I sent in message Number 404

412 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:34:40pm

i'm out for awhile ... have a good one

413 der_ich  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:39:48pm

re: #90 sagehen

They have four official languages.

German, French, Italian and Rhaeto-Romance.

414 AK-47%  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 2:40:47pm

The Swiss are certainly willing to cooperate with foreign investigators, even to the extent of allowing access to bank records, if the person being investigated is suspected of a criminal offense, such as drug running, extortion, racketeering, etc.

But here's the catch: tax evasion is not a criminal offense in Switzerland, it is a misdemeanor. So if a foreigner is merely suspected of evading taxes, the Swiss authorities will not cooperate.

For that, they have a simple tax system, with a low rate and a minimum of exemptions, deferrals or other loopholes, because they are not necessary.

And although banking and income records are private, it is a matter of public record how much a person has paid in taxes. Which has occasionally led to some Swiss actually paying more taxes than required in order to create the impression that their income is higher than it actually is.

I think they are pretty screwed up on this minaret issue, but when it comes to taxes, the Swiss are some of the most rational prople in Europe. Who else could come up with a system that encourages taxpayers to overpay?

415 sagehen  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 3:03:52pm

re: #400 Bagua

re: #413 der_ich

They have four official languages.

German, French, Italian and Rhaeto-Romance.


I stand corrected.

416 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 3:07:16pm

Maybe all this is just a clever ploy to bring out the radicals among Switzerland's Muslim residents.

That should be fun.

Somehow I don't think signs reading "Köpft die, die Islam beleidigen*" will be met with the scared-shitless "tolerance" of a London bobby.

*"Behead those who insult Islam."

417 Gang of One  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 3:15:09pm

re: #324 SixDegrees

They are. So are Jews.

PETA doesn't care for it. But no one gives a shit about PETA.

Just caught that ... where and when do Jews sacrifice animals, as in a korban, a ritual blood sacrifice by the Kohanim, since the Second Temple was destroyed in 70 AD by the Romans? This is news to me. Got a link?

418 Gang of One  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 3:17:13pm

Actually, the korban was a burnt offering. The animal was actually eaten. Most of it, anyway.

419 Boogberg  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 4:08:48pm

re: #399 der_ich

Well Scandinavian countries are European countries - why "and"? Switzerland did never strike me as the country leading European anti-Americanism. In any case one is always responsible for one's own prejudices. That some European states are stupid does not justify cheap shots in the other direction.

Well I never know what sort of prejudices you "Europeans" have against each other. You've been murdering each other for thousands of years whereas the US has only been doing it for two or three hundred.

420 J.S.  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 4:11:02pm

re: #405 der_ich

I have the impression that governments in the West are (on the one hand) doing all sorts of bizarre things to accommodate radical Islamism (allowing mosques to become recruitment grounds, etc.) or else focusing on some relatively trivial aspect of Muslims (such as women wearing head scarves or mosques with minarets) and coming down far too hard. Much of this seems "off-kilter"...or not striking the right balance...

421 Stuart Leviton  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 4:48:46pm

re: #404 _RememberTonyC

I admit that the bar is set pretty low when it comes to "what constitutes a pelestinian moderate?" But here's a quick little piece on barghouti with some interesting stuff in it:

[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

Hi TonyC. I so distrust news analyses. Here is a Jerusalem Post piece on Barghouti:
Analysis: Is Tanzim chief Barghouti: a Nelson Mandella or a PR gimmick?

422 Right Brain  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 5:03:11pm

Good for the Swiss, at least the 57% who voted against allowing the take-over of their country by an intolerant horde.

If they hadn't stopped having children they would not have this ninth-century immigration problem. Here's to feminism, the ultimate coitus interruptus.

423 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 5:12:03pm

Banning minarets is not a rational or worthwhile response to fears about Islamic fundamentalism, nor is it compatible with secularism. And it is not the 'European way' either.

424 erraticsphinx  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 5:15:45pm

Hey I'm a bit late to this party but, wow.

Pretty sad that some people are making "It's just architecture!" claims, when it's plain as sight that this was a blatant anti-Islam campaign run by a far right party known for general disagreeableness in the past. Just look at the posters they have had for this initiative and ones past.

I forget who said it but they said it best : This is fascist incrementalism.

The whole point is to prevent integration and stigmatize.
And the whole "Saudi Arabia does it!" argument is total bullshit.
"Yes, a totalitarian theocratic state does it! We must fart in their general direction with this initiative."

Gimme a break.

425 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 5:22:25pm

re: #423 Jimmah

Banning minarets is not a rational or worthwhile response to fears about Islamic fundamentalism, nor is it compatible with secularism. And it is not the 'European way' either.

It is, however, a democratic decision.

Unlike in the rest of Yurp, were minarets are jammed up the ass of the populace as a matter of Eurabian principle.

426 solomonpanting  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 5:36:33pm

re: #423 Jimmah

Banning minarets is not a rational or worthwhile response to fears about Islamic fundamentalism, nor is it compatible with secularism. And it is not the 'European way' either.

Except for the banning of scarves and religious symbols in public schools in Germany and France and discussions under way in Spain and Italy for similar bans, and Europe's centuries of anti-Semitism, you be correct.

427 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 5:38:47pm

re: #424 erraticsphinx

I forget who said it but they said it best : This is fascist incrementalism.

That was me. :)

428 captdiggs  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 5:45:33pm

I'm not going to pass judgment on the Swiss.
This is reactionary. I lived in Sweden and still have many friends there. Malmo was a city where people never locked their doors and crime was extremely low.
Now, after 20 years of north African and middle eastern immigration, violent crime is way up, there are muslim sections in the city where fire and ambulance personnel will not go without police escort. Violent rape is way up.
Many of these immigrants after 10 or more years in Sweden do not speak Swedish, do not work, and rely solely on the state. Islamist preaching is on the rise there and the Swedes are just plain scared of it.
This may or may not be similar to Switzerland, but I suspect it is.
People get fed up and they have little recourse. I think the vote was an outlet for some serious fear and frustration.

429 erraticsphinx  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 5:47:33pm

re: #427 Sharmuta

I knew it was someone smart !

re: #428 captdiggs

This is definitely reactionary. Doesn't make it right, though. I'm going to be looking very carefully what the next steps will be in Switzerland.

430 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 5:50:12pm

OT - Sort of.

Polanski will enjoy broad freedoms during house arrest at his Alpine chalet
November 29, 2009 %P% 2:44 pm

When Roman Polanski is released on bail in the next few days to be under house arrest at his Alpine chalet, he will have much more freedom than he did at his Zurich-area jail cell, according to reports from Switzerland.

A Swiss justice officials was quoted by AFP and Swiss news media as saying Polanski would be allowed to make unlimited phone calls and have full access to e-mail and the Internet. Although he cannot leave his house, he can invite friends over and throw parties at the tony chalet in the ski resort of Gstaad.

SNIP

Whatever you do Mr. Polanski, just don't build a minaret atop your chalet.

431 captdiggs  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 5:55:07pm

re: #429 erraticsphinx

I knew it was someone smart !

re: #428 captdiggs

This is definitely reactionary. Doesn't make it right, though. I'm going to be looking very carefully what the next steps will be in Switzerland.

I spent time in Switzerland too.
A ban on minarets is completely Swiss. It's one of the most regimented countries I have been too. It's how they maintain the picturesque nature. They have laws regarding everything aesthetic. Laws about polishing your door knocker, maintaining the flowers, sweeping the sidewalk in front of your house, strict noise level laws. At the time I was there they even had laws regarding when people could move, so as not to disturb the tranquility of the neighborhood.
Not saying the vote was about aesthetics, but it sure is very Swiss to regulate the view from your window.

432 erraticsphinx  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 5:58:07pm

I don't know if this question has been asked but, what if a muslim group decides to put up a minaret in a "churchy" style? I've seen some really squarish ones that could easily be mistaken for church spires.

Will they be arrested, jailed, fined what? Can't they claim it's not a minaret but simply a "tower". I mean, local codes already ban them from broadcasting prayers, so isn't it pretty accurate to say its just a tower and not a minaret?

Or will their simple Muslimness simply forbid them from building anything tower-like near anywhere they congregate?
I can already feel the religious freedom!
/

A lot of interesting questions in my mind.

433 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:01:35pm

re: #426 solomonpanting

Except for the banning of scarves and religious symbols in public schools in Germany and France and discussions under way in Spain and Italy for similar bans, and Europe's centuries of anti-Semitism, you be correct.

Such instances do not demonstrate that these anti-secular, anti-religious freedom measures are the norm. The fact that they are so controversial should be a clue to that. As for your bringing up Europe's 'centuries of anti-semitism', I could mention Americas centuries of racism and slavery, or the fact that even today her educational standards are threatened by brain-dead christian fundamentalists, but I'm not interested in engaging in any silly Europe vs America pissing matches.

434 solomonpanting  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:05:09pm

re: #433 Jimmah

I'm not interested in engaging in any silly Europe vs America pissing matches

Thank God for small favors.

435 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:08:37pm

re: #434 solomonpanting

Thank God for small favors.

Supporting secularism and opposing anti-religious freedom measures everywhere is the way to go.

436 Gus  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:41:47pm

I guess while they were busy voting to ban minarets they forgot to ban swastikas.

Swastika ban left out of EU's racism law

Published Date: 30 January 2007
By ETHAN MCNERN
GERMANY will not push during its presidency of the European Union for an EU-wide ban on the swastika and will leave it up to member states to decide whether to punish people who deny that the Holocaust happened, Berlin said yesterday.

Germany had said it wanted to harmonise rules throughout the 27-member bloc for dealing with Holocaust deniers and for punishing displays of the Nazi symbol, banned in Germany and several other states.

But, setting out plans for an EU-wide anti-racism law, it said it would not seek to prohibit "specific symbols such as swastikas".

It would also not try to push all EU states to say it is a crime to deny that six million Jews were exterminated during the Second World War.

Member states could decide not to make the denial of the Holocaust a crime "where the conduct is of a kind unlikely to incite to violence or hatred," the draft showed.

The EU's executive Commission proposed an EU-wide anti-racism law in 2001, but EU states failed to agree, struggling over the balance between freedom of expression and sanction of racism.

Germany's new draft suggests that incitement to racism and xenophobia would be punishable by at least one to three years of jail in all 27 EU states, while leaving to each state to decide on the specifics.

Effectively this means Switzerland now hold minarets as illegal while swastikas are legal. Odd priorities they have. Given that this measure was supported by the far-right party Swiss People's Party it should come as no surprise.

437 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:55:47pm

re: #435 Jimmah

Supporting secularism and opposing anti-religious freedom measures everywhere is the way to go.

Religious freedom, last time I checked, does not equal architectural licence.

438 Boogberg  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 6:59:34pm

How awful Europeans must feel after indirectly accusing Americans of racism all these years. We gotta black President, and you don't!

We win, you lose!

439 Ramona  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 7:01:48pm

re: #7 gman

440 Cato the Elder  Sun, Nov 29, 2009 8:34:15pm

re: #429 erraticsphinx

This is definitely reactionary. Doesn't make it right, though. I'm going to be looking very carefully what the next steps will be in Switzerland.

I'm sure the Swiss await your verdict with fear and trembling.

441 DemonFish  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 1:33:41am

re: #67 JohninLondon

Anyone who knows East London, for example, will know that there has been a complete and very rapid change in the neighbourhoods there.

What, you mean like when West Indians arrived in Notting Hill, Irish in Kilburn, Jews in Golders, Greeks in Wood Green...? Immigrants have been coming into London for centuries and (surprise surprise) they tend to stick together when they arrive.

442 Øyvind Strømmen  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 2:40:51am

re: #90 sagehen

So unique they've got two languages, neither of which is called "Swiss.

Four official languages, actually. And that is not too common ;).

The Swiss have voted for rubbish legislation. If the term Islamophobia has any meaning, this is it.

443 Øyvind Strømmen  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 2:45:45am

re: #2 Athens Runaway

I wonder how much of this move was due to NIMBYism and the green movement's emphasis on "preserving viewscapes."

As a Green, I can give you my five cents: Mosques - as other buildings, religious or not - should be governed through reasonable building regulations, not through banning minarets.

The Swiss Green party has - of course - strongly opposed this ban. In a press release they say (my translation from German):

The Greens are appalled by the recent referendum result. The approval of the minaret initiative is a slap in the face for our Muslim fellow citizens and for our politics. On this background, the Greens express their solidarity with the Muslim community.

444 Øyvind Strømmen  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 2:49:22am

re: #438 Boogberg

We gotta black President, and you don't!

You have a good point, and one which I occassionally make when I'm debating the hard left here in Norway.

However, Obama strikes me as a rather typical American, "of mixed race". Of course, using the word "race" at all is somewhat nonsensical, as if there were clearly definable subspecies of human kind. "Of mixed origin" would suit better. And with the exception of North Korea, which country in the modern world is homogenous anyway?

445 Wytnucls  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 2:50:20am

Slighty off-topic: Religion of peace in Russia
'A Russian Orthodox priest, Fr. Daniel Sysoyev, who carried out missionary work among immigrants from ex-Soviet republics, many of them Muslims, received over a dozen death threats before his murder.'
The whole article: [Link: www.orthodoxytoday.org...]

446 Øyvind Strømmen  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 2:55:06am

re: #436 Gus 802

Switzerland is not a member of the EU.

I have no clue whether the swastika is banned in Switzerland. An EU-wide ban would be nonsensical, both since it's a meaningless way to battle fascism (they use pick another symbol), and because it would give Finland a great deal of worry.

See: [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

447 Øyvind Strømmen  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 2:58:15am

re: #110 Cato the Elder

I'm sorry, but I, for one, don't want to see any damn minarets in Basel or Zurich until I can go to see a church spire in Medina.

I did not know Saudi Arabia was a model state.

448 Øyvind Strømmen  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 3:01:27am

re: #437 Cato the Elder

Religious freedom, last time I checked, does not equal architectural licence.

Building regulations have, would and should apply. Banning a specific kind of tower - which comes in a whole lot of variations - because of it's Islamic connotations - is an attack on religious freedom.

449 Øyvind Strømmen  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 3:07:45am

re: #428 captdiggs

Malmo was a city where people never locked their doors and crime was extremely low. Now, after 20 years of north African and middle eastern immigration, violent crime is way up, there are muslim sections in the city where fire and ambulance personnel will not go without police escort.

Say, when were you last in Malmö? I visited a couple of months back. It's not a big city, around 250.000 inhabitans. The alleged "Muslim sections" consist of a few streets, and are noticeable for mostly one thing: an amazing amount of falaffel stores. The whole idea that they are somehow "off-limits" is rubbish.

But you are correct: This is how to get people to vote for fascist politics. First scare them with something, it does not matter much if it is the truth, a half-truth or a pure propaganda lie. Then tell them you will bring them safety.

450 captdiggs  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 10:51:39am

re: #449 oslogin

I don't know which Malmo you are referring to but Malmo, Sweden has over 50,000 muslim immigrants that comprise between 20 and 25% of the population.

The whole idea that they are somehow "off-limits" is rubbish.

"Malmö fire-fighters will in the future be given a police escort when visiting the suburb of Rosengård. Fire-fighters have demanded protection after having been repeatedly subjected to stone throwing and death threats.
...Bus traffic has previously been interrupted on several occasions as buses have become a target for stone-throwing youths.

The bus operators' safety representative has highlighted the dangers faced by bus drivers working on routes through Rosengård and certain routes have been periodically declared off limits. "
[Link: www.thelocal.se...]

451 Øyvind Strømmen  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 1:03:40pm

re: #450 captdiggs

I don't know which Malmo you are referring to but Malmo, Sweden has over 50,000 muslim immigrants that comprise between 20 and 25% of the population.

Rubbish and more rubbish, yet again.

As I haven't only visited the city recently, but also am quite capable in the Swedish language, I can refer you to this article in the regional newspaper Sydsvenskan: [Link: sydsvenskan.se...]

There, you can read that Malmö now has 290.000 inhabitants. This number does not include only the city itself, but also several smaller communities.

Also feel free to check Statistics Sweden's website: [Link: www.scb.se...]

There you will find the figures for Malmö in line 797.

As for demographics, around a quarter of the population are foreign-born (75.000), the biggest groups being the Danes (Copenhagen is not far away), Iraq, former Yugoslavia (Serbia, Kosovo and Montenegro), Poland, Bosnia and Hercegovina, Lebanon, Iran, Hungary and Germany. (Source: Official statistics from Malmö municipality, 1. Jan 2009: [Link: www.malmo.se...]

Malmö is a rather charming city, by the way. Worth the visit.

As for the article in The Local which you refer too, this was published in connection with the riots in Rosengård; a very real and very worrying episode. To conclude from the ongoings in a riot situation to the actual situation today is - however - bizarre to say the very least. Frankly, there are lots of places in the U.S. I would be more in doubt about visiting.

Rosengård is a part of the city near the centre; where there are around 6.000 Kosovars (including 2. generation), some more than 3.000 Iraqis (including 2. generation) and around 3.000 Palestinians, and immigrants (including 2. generation) make up for 84% of the population. It has a total population of just above 20.000, and is somewhat over 300 acres in size. Look it up on Google Maps. Seriously.

As for Rosengård: It's an area with high unemployment, below standard housing (by Swedish standards, that is), and numerous social problems. But it's not a no-go zone, not for you and me, not for ambulances and firetrucks.

452 Øyvind Strømmen  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 1:16:01pm

re: #451 oslogin

And let me just add, before someone else does: Yes, there have some episodes in Rosengård the latest month, as well.

Last week, for instance, local newspapers report of a group of youngsters who lit fires to a container and a couple of utility trailers, as well as threw rocks at passing city buses. The police was also met with stones, called for backup, and quickly took control of the situation. This hasn't gained much media attention outside of Sweden (and not much there either, really). I'm not convinced a similar episode in East St. Louis would receive that much attention either.

453 Øyvind Strømmen  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 1:26:50pm

re: #451 oslogin

I misread your numbers and therefore over-reacted in regards to the population numbers. I'm sorry about that.

The number of Muslims (i.e. people within a family background in dominantly Muslim countries) are difficult to estimate; but there's a considerable Muslim population in Malmö - and not only in Rosengård. Of the immigrants, there are however thousands and thousands from European countries (Denmark, Poland, Hungary, Germany, the former Yugoslavia), and the total Muslim population is - my guess based on the statistics - somewhat below 20%. And G-d knows how many of those are anything more than Muslim in name.

The Rosengård kids who were behind the riots are quite simply f---ed up kids. Ideology played a very minor role, if any at all; although I'm sure you'd find fanatics there - and religion is a pretty superficial explanation.

454 captdiggs  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 3:16:51pm

re: #451 oslogin
it's not a no-go zone, not for you and me, not for ambulances and firetrucks.


I showed you the news articles that proved that it was, at least in the sense that Fire and Ambulance personnel need police protection, as well as bus drivers, with certain routes made "off limits".
Sticking to your erroneous claim means that it was not a simple mistake the first time you said it.

455 captdiggs  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 6:12:48pm

hmmm...and I remember the old days here of "Palestinian Car Swarm Watch".

456 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Nov 30, 2009 7:53:54pm

re: #1 McSpiff

Dangerous precedent I'd say.

This is more direct than some similar instances I've seen in the U.S. In some localities, communities try to keep mosques out by invoking maximum height ordinances (so no minarets), noise ordinances (so no muezzin calls at five am) and so on.

457 Øyvind Strømmen  Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:25:55am

re: #454 captdiggs

You showed one (that is 1) newspaper article in The Local, which was written while there were riots in Rosengård; and in that situation rescue personnel requested police backup, as they - too - were victims of the rioters.

As noted above, you can not conclude from an article written in a riot situation to the situation today; where there - in spite of the incidents such as the one referred above - are no riots in any true sense of the word (I think someone from Chicago would laugh). Let me quote the regional police, interviewed in the newspaper Kvällsposten:

– Det har varit väldigt lugnt ute i Rosengård en längre tid nu, säger Lars Karsten.

- It has been very calm in Rosengård for a longer period, says Lars Karsten.

And Rosengård is just a small part of a relatively small city in Sweden. If you want to find troubled (immigrant) neighborhoods in Europe, I'd start looking somewhere else. Now, let me point out that the police in Skåne (the region of Malmö) is indeed worried that new riots may break out, but that's about it. Rosengård is simply a troubled neighborhood with the often dangerous mix of many young people (by Swedish standards), many poor people (by Swedish standards) and a very high rate of unemployment (by Swedish standards, once again).

During the election campaign in Norway some months back, the populist right Progress Party (Frp) tried to pull of the Malmö stunt. Ilmar Reepalu, "the strong man of Malmö politics" (and - incidentally - Estonian-born) responded by inviting the Frp leadership to Malmö. He stated:

- Då ska de självklart få träffa politiker i stadsdelen Rosengård och få höra hur det fungerar där ute och bli av med alla de felaktiga rykten som de tydligen har hört.

- Then they will be able to meet politicians in the Rosengård part of city, and they can hear for themselves how it works there and get rid of all the fake rumours that they've obviously heard.

[Link: www.dn.se...]

The head of police in Rosengård also gave his reaction to the claims of Frp, as noted in this Norwegian newspaper article: [Link: www.vg.no...]

A longer quote from this article (my translation from Norwegian):

- Oslo and other large cities in Norway (like they even exist, my note) could get close to the conditions we see in Malmö: Where rescue personnel do not dare driving into certain parts of town, where sharia laws govern entirely and Swedish law is set aside, said Siv Jensen in her speech during the executive committee meeting of the Progress Party.

The head of police in Rosengård thinks the scare scenario of the Norwegian politician is completely wrong.

- This does not match at all. The police goes everywhere and it is Swedish law that apply in Rosengård, established head of police Børje Aronsson to VG Nett.

The head of police explains that there was a period during the riots last fall where the fire department did not go to certain parts of Rosengård in fear of being bombarded with stones from raging youth. In addition, ambulance personnell has experienced that people have stolen equipment and medicine from ambulances.

- But do you have the same control in Rosengård as in other parts of Malmö?

- We can't deny that there are areas in Rosengård which are very segregated and where we experience difficulties with for instance language. We especially have problems in the area around what's called Herregården, but for the most the security situation in Rosengård is as good as in the rest of Malmö, says Aronsson.

Debating the actual issues Rosengård (and other places) are faced with would be interesting. Debating the myths created by various international sources with a clear ideological agenda and by the nativist right Sweden Democrats is simply not that interesting.

458 Øyvind Strømmen  Tue, Dec 1, 2009 5:54:41am

As for your comment about rapes: Sweden has a very high number of reported rapes compared with all other EU countries. One of the reasons is that the crime is more likely to be reported in Sweden than in many other countries, but there are at least indications that the numbers are also higher in reality.

46 rapes are reported per 100.000 citizens per year. In Malmö 140 rapes or attempted rapes were reported in 2005 (the newest number I could find in a hurry), which adds up to about the same number as the rest of the country. According to the police, most of these happen indoors and the perpetrator is often someone in a near relation to the victim. However, it is true that a noticeable increase has been seen since the 1990s, and the number of women being attacked and raped outside has also increased, 40 rapists were reported in 2005; there was however one really disgustingly ugly gang rape case that accounts for a considerable part of that statistics (like the Oslo statistics, also referred widely on the internet, were largely ascribed to two-three serial rapists).

[Link: sydsvenskan.se...]

40 is an awful number for a relatively small city; and there is reason to believe that this has connections to both the high number of youth and to misogynism amongst for instance youth of Middle Eastern background, as described (in France) by Fadela Amara in her highly recommendable (although hardly enjoyable) book "Ni Putes, Ni Soumises". These are real issues that have to be handled, and one of truths or at least half-truths the Swedish far right also employ to in the scare tactics to win votes.

To put the numbers in perspective though, 90 forcible rapes per 100.000 inhabitants were reported in 2007 for Anchorage, Alaska.

459 Øyvind Strømmen  Tue, Dec 1, 2009 6:06:37am

re: #457 oslogin

"If you want to find troubled (immigrant) neighborhoods in Europe" should read "If you want to find seriously troubled (immigrant) neighborhoods in Europe". Rosengård is troubled. But it's far from what it is often being described as.

460 Malleus Dei  Tue, Dec 1, 2009 6:48:05am

Since when does banning a style of buildings equal religious oppression? There's way too much overreaction to what the Swiss did. I'd vote to ban minarets myself - I think they're an eyesore - but then I'd vote to ban any similar structure from any other religion and even ugly cell towers and skyscrapers as well. But never anyone's actual religion.

When the Swiss actually limit or ban a religion, instead of a buliding type, get excited. In the meantime, when it's all about architecture, just yawn.

461 Øyvind Strømmen  Tue, Dec 1, 2009 7:30:01am

re: #460 Malleus Dei

Since when does banning a style of buildings equal religious oppression?

Minarets come in many shapes and forms, and are not really "a style of buildings". The ban means that Muslims are not allowed to have towers on their religious buildings, and that does indeed equal religious suppression. To quote the Swiss Federation of Jewish Communities and the Platform of Liberal Jews:

"The referendum infringes religious freedom, a concept enshrined in the constitution".

And:

Says Dr Herbert Winter, the president of the Swiss Federation of Jewish Communities: “As Jews we have our own experience. For centuries we were excluded: we were not allowed to construct synagoges or cupola roofs. We do not want that kind of exclusion repeated.”

[Link: www.euronews.net...]

462 Øyvind Strømmen  Tue, Dec 1, 2009 10:02:35am

Oh, and just in case someone is still following this debate. Here is the Facebook page of the fire department station in Rosengård: [Link: www.facebook.com...]

There you can follow links to stories about a large manifestation against violence in Rosengård, as well as links to a story about two guys in their early twenties - Kushtrim Rugova and Marwan Khoder - who put out a fire in a kindergarten. The stories you did not get on FOX.


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