1 | Varek Raith Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:05:42pm |
John Williams. :)
2 | Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:10:31pm |
re: #1 Varek Raith
John Williams. :)
[Video]
Great score. john Williams started creating movie scores back in the 60's he's still turning out top notch work.
3 | Varek Raith Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:11:40pm |
re: #2 Dark_Falcon
Great score. john Williams started creating movie scores back in the 60's he's still turning out top notch work.
I heard this theme earlier today during Local on the 8s on the Weather Channel. I said, awesome out loud. ")
4 | Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:15:16pm |
re: #3 Varek Raith
I heard this theme earlier today during Local on the 8s on the Weather Channel. I said, awesome out loud. ")
My parents own multiple CDs of concerts he has conducted. One of them featured the background music from the Mos Eisley Cantina in Episode 4. I realized how well suited such s tune would have been to a Chicago speakeasy in the 1920's, which was perhaps the intention of Williams and Lucas.
5 | Spare O'Lake Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:18:53pm |
Bad Dinner Alert:
Some had convincingly argued that for the sake of finally achieving a timely end to the trial process for Gitmo terrorists, it was now too late to advocate a reversal of the KSM trial arrangements.
What then is to be made of the recent news that the KSM showtrial is now indeed likely to be moved out of NYC, and that no new venue has yet been chosen?
Will this breathe new life into the debate over military vs civilian trials?
Or maybe instead Obama will just skip the trial of KSM completely and move directly to his pre-ordained execution.
6 | Varek Raith Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:21:11pm |
Nobuo Uematsu
One Winged Angel (Advent Children version)
7 | Vicious Babushka Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:21:44pm |
I should be asleep. My flight leaves LA at 1:00 PM tomorrow. Which means I have to be at the airport by 11:00 AM. Which means I have to return my rental car by 10:30 AM. Which means I have to leave my parents' house by 9:30 AM. Which means I should be up at 7:30 AM to finish packing, eat breakfast, take final pictures with my 91 year old dad. Which means I should be in bed now.
But I'm not sleepy.
8 | SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:22:29pm |
re: #5 Spare O'Lake
Bad Dinner Alert:
Some had convincingly argued that for the sake of finally achieving a timely end to the trial process for Gitmo terrorists, it was now too late to advocate a reversal of the KSM trial arrangements.
What then is to be made of the recent news that the KSM showtrial is now indeed likely to be moved out of NYC, and that no new venue has yet been chosen?
Will this breathe new life into the debate over military vs civilian trials?
Or maybe instead Obama will just skip the trial of KSM completely and move directly to his pre-ordained execution.
Nah, nah, nah, we gotta give him a fair trial and THEN hang him.
/
10 | Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:22:40pm |
re: #5 Spare O'Lake
Bad Dinner Alert:
Some had convincingly argued that for the sake of finally achieving a timely end to the trial process for Gitmo terrorists, it was now too late to advocate a reversal of the KSM trial arrangements.
What then is to be made of the recent news that the KSM showtrial is now indeed likely to be moved out of NYC, and that no new venue has yet been chosen?
Will this breathe new life into the debate over military vs civilian trials?
Or maybe instead Obama will just skip the trial of KSM completely and move directly to his pre-ordained execution.
Thank you for that. By itself, it would not revive the military tribunal idea, but it does give those who favor tribunals an issue to use to argue for them. If ever thre was a time to push for tribunals, this would be it.
11 | Gus Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:23:43pm |
re: #4 Dark_Falcon
My parents own multiple CDs of concerts he has conducted. One of them featured the background music from the Mos Eisley Cantina in Episode 4. I realized how well suited such s tune would have been to a Chicago speakeasy in the 1920's, which was perhaps the intention of Williams and Lucas.
You ever see the underground tunnels they had during prohibition in Chicago. Amazing network which used to go from club to club.
12 | Gus Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:27:48pm |
re: #8 SanFranciscoZionist
Nah, nah, nah, we gotta give him a fair trial and THEN hang him.
/
13 | Vicious Babushka Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:30:49pm |
Goodnight you West Coast Lizards.
I'll register jewish-hollywood.org when I get back home.
14 | Gus Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:36:09pm |
15 | Varek Raith Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:38:37pm |
Two of my favorite video game songs.
Yuki Kajiura
Godsibb
Yuki Kajiura
The Battle for your Soul
17 | Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:45:03pm |
re: #7 Alouette
My advice? Keep drinking.
18 | Varek Raith Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:46:49pm |
19 | Gus Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:49:41pm |
re: #15 Varek Raith
Two of my favorite video game songs.
Yuki Kajiura
Godsibb[Video]
I used to lose myself in flight sim. Spent a lot of time and money tweaking and such. Still have FS2004, FSX and Combat FS Sim installed. Have a lot of pay ware also. My favorite was flying out of Innsbruck. I stopped almost 2 years ago and keeping telling myself to start it up again.
21 | Gus Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:51:36pm |
22 | Gus Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:58:15pm |
23 | Sol Berdinowitz Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:58:27pm |
Morning already here in Germany, light snow. Waiting for wood stove to warm up and coffee to take effect.
24 | Varek Raith Sun, Jan 31, 2010 11:59:59pm |
re: #23 ralphieboy
Morning already here in Germany, light snow. Waiting for wood stove to warm up and coffee to take effect.
Did you take the coffee through an IV??? Faster, that way!
;)
25 | Gus Mon, Feb 1, 2010 12:09:54am |
26 | Killgore Trout Mon, Feb 1, 2010 12:17:19am |
re: #25 Gus 802
Nice thumpin' on that upright bass.
27 | Gus Mon, Feb 1, 2010 12:21:03am |
re: #26 Killgore Trout
Nice thumpin' on that upright bass.
Great stuff. I'm thinking that's from the 40s.
28 | Varek Raith Mon, Feb 1, 2010 12:21:25am |
Ohhh, a shiny new game to distract Varek for a long period of time!
...once it's released, of course!
:)
31 | Sol Berdinowitz Mon, Feb 1, 2010 1:21:25am |
re: #27 Gus 802
Great stuff. I'm thinking that's from the 40s.
I believe this is from the movie "International House" starring W.C. Field
Check out the trumpeter with the tin hat in the back row.
33 | rwdflynavy Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:52:39am |
Good Morning Lizards!
East Coast is up and has the watch!
Watch looks pretty quiet...
34 | Decatur Deb Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:02:30am |
Hail and farewell, all. I'm only up for a few minutes. Stupid dog.
36 | RogueOne Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:33:53am |
Morning folks. Must have been a good night around here, I don't see any blood on the floor.
40 | iceweasel Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:02:18am |
re: #38 sattv4u2
Anyone know if FEB 11th has any significance on the Islamic calender!?!?
According to the snippet of the press.ir report on memorandum, (which also won't open) it's this years anniversary of the Islamic Revolution. (aka the Iranian Revolution)
41 | iceweasel Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:05:12am |
This period, from February 1 to 11, is celebrated every year in Iran as the "Decade of Fajr."[122][123] February 11 is "Islamic Revolution's Victory Day", a national holiday with state sponsored demonstrations in every city.[124][125]
42 | sattv4u2 Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:07:08am |
re: #40 iceweasel
According to the snippet of the press.ir report on memorandum, (which also won't open) it's this years anniversary of the Islamic Revolution. (aka the Iranian Revolution)
Tanks!
43 | sattv4u2 Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:07:32am |
BRB,,,, gotta drive my son to the school bus stop
44 | iceweasel Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:11:13am |
re: #36 RogueOne
Morning folks. Must have been a good night around here, I don't see any blood on the floor.
That's cause we have soothing music posted in the overnight.
I have a theory that if we all listened to freetoken's music choices in the early morning, we'd see less bickering during the traditional Bitching Hour on LGF (that period from roughly 4am-7am PST).
45 | Sol Berdinowitz Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:14:35am |
Bloodletting always seems worse when the theme is anything to do with global warming, which is only exacerbated by the enormous amount of flamage that it seems to generate...
46 | Nervous Norvous Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:18:12am |
Good morning all...not staying long...got to leave for work in a few....
47 | Varek Raith Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:18:32am |
re: #45 ralphieboy
Bloodletting always seems worse when the theme is anything to do with global warming, which is only exacerbated by the enormous amount of flamage that it seems to generate...
You need a +7 Protection from Fire suit of armor.
;)
48 | Nervous Norvous Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:19:41am |
re: #45 ralphieboy
I'm not sure it's the topic as much as it is the personalities involved, myself.
49 | iceweasel Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:21:19am |
re: #45 ralphieboy
Bloodletting always seems worse when the theme is anything to do with global warming, which is only exacerbated by the enormous amount of flamage that it seems to generate...
There's a few reasons for that here. Charles put the hammer down about that:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
Hopefully that comment will be heeded.
50 | freetoken Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:29:09am |
One of the best covers for the Economist, ever:
Image: currentcoverus_large.jpg
And the article that goes with it:
[Link: www.economist.com...]
51 | Varek Raith Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:31:25am |
Heh, am I one of the rare ones that thinks Apple is completely and utterly overrated?
/Puts on +7 Flame Suit. ;)
52 | Sol Berdinowitz Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:37:36am |
re: #49 iceweasel
There's a few reasons for that here. Charles put the hammer down about that:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]Hopefully that comment will be heeded.
Must be the combination of ideology-bordering-on-religion and nerdy scientific one-upmanship.
I remember chiming in to make a comment about how the Greenlanders made a pact with Satan to get rid of the Danes and got stomped on by someone who did see any cause of levity in such a serious case of comparing dicks.
54 | iceweasel Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:48:56am |
re: #52 ralphieboy
AGW threads tend to get a lot of troll action, too. By which I mean for days after they're posted, some denier or other (usually several) crawls out of the woodwork late at night to spam them with crap links and often random abuse.
It's very curious. We don't see that happen consistently with any other topic in the way it reliably happens with AGW threads.
I suspect it used to happen here a lot with creationist threads too, but I wasn't regged here then.
55 | SteveC Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:59:31am |
re: #54 iceweasel
AGW threads tend to get a lot of troll action, too. By which I mean for days after they're posted, some denier or other (usually several) crawls out of the woodwork late at night to spam them with crap links and often random abuse.
It's very curious. We don't see that happen consistently with any other topic in the way it reliably happens with AGW threads.
Usual Troll Thought Process: "Yeah, I went in there and told those LGF idjits da troof about AGW. And not a damn one of them said a word! A single word! I am the King Troll!"
Usual Lizard Thought Process: "Bring that foolishness into a live thread, bub, and we'll send you home in a box. A very small box."
56 | SteveC Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:01:45am |
re: #52 ralphieboy
I remember chiming in to make a comment about how the Greenlanders made a pact with Satan to get rid of the Danes and got stomped on by someone who did see any cause of levity in such a serious case of comparing dicks.
Satan: "I see. So, what would you have me to do for you?"
Greenlanders: "Help us get rid of all these Danes! And since you are Satan, after all, can you warm this place up a bit?"
57 | RogueOne Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:34:02am |
Scrolled through the spin-off links and didn't see this. I'm sure it was covered but I'd like to add my two cents:
Gibbs: Accused 9/11 plotter likely to be executed
"Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is going to meet justice and he's going to meet his maker," said President Barack Obama's press secretary, Robert Gibbs. "He will be brought to justice and he's likely to be executed for the heinous crimes that he committed in killing and masterminding the killing of 3,000 Americans. That you can be sure of."
They don't know where the trial is to be held, but they already know the results. If you're planning on putting on a trial to show the world how generous our legal system is maybe you shouldn't be running around telling everyone the outcome is already known. Just sayin.
58 | Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:37:36am |
re: #54 iceweasel
I suspect it used to happen here a lot with creationist threads too, but I wasn't regged here then.
You're correct on that assertion, though I rarely visited those threads myself. There was usually some talk about the presence of such trolls on the active thread the next morning.
59 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:39:24am |
re: #43 sattv4u2
BRB,,, gotta drive my son to the school bus stop
I used to have to walk to the bus stop; three miles each direction; up hill each direction; in the snow!
AND I LIKED IT!
60 | RogueOne Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:40:42am |
Gates Makes $10 Billion Vaccines Pledge
[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]
The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation will donate $10 billion over the next decade to research new vaccines and bring them to the world's poorest countries, the Microsoft co-founder and his wife said Friday.Calling upon governments and business to also contribute, they said the money will produce higher immunization rates and aims to make sure that 90 percent of children are immunized against dangerous diseases such as diarrhea and pneumonia in poorer nations.
That is an awfully nice pledge but I didn't realize you could get immunized against diarrhea. They should name it TB_2 after taco bell.
61 | SteveC Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:40:56am |
re: #57 RogueOne
They don't know where the trial is to be held, but they already know the results. If you're planning on putting on a trial to show the world how generous our legal system is maybe you shouldn't be running around telling everyone the outcome is already known. Just sayin.
It's sounding so much like a kangaroo court I wouldn't be surprised to hear that it is going to be held in Australia.
62 | SteveC Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:42:33am |
re: #59 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I used to have to walk to the bus stop; three miles each direction; up hill each direction; in the snow!
AND I LIKED IT!
Big deal. It snows so much here that we have to crap into a shotgun and fire it up the chimney.
63 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:46:20am |
re: #60 RogueOne
Dysentery... is epidemic in the third world...
It's really bad. Really fatal. Really yucky.
64 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:51:17am |
re: #57 RogueOne
Scrolled through the spin-off links and didn't see this. I'm sure it was covered but I'd like to add my two cents:
Gibbs: Accused 9/11 plotter likely to be executed
[Link: www.msnbc.msn.com...]
They don't know where the trial is to be held, but they already know the results. If you're planning on putting on a trial to show the world how generous our legal system is maybe you shouldn't be running around telling everyone the outcome is already known. Just sayin.
Remember when Lt. Col. Oliver North went on trial? The government found a jury ignorant enough that they'd never heard of him. I don't think that'll be the case here because everyone's heard of 9-11.
65 | RogueOne Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:52:00am |
Anyone see Roger Ailes slap around Arianna Huffington on ABC this weekend? She was trying to hammer him on Beck and he came back with some of the things said about him on the Huffington post.
66 | SasyMomaCat Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:55:47am |
good morning, all - heading into a meeting in about 5 - did I miss anything really big this past week?
67 | RogueOne Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:56:03am |
re: #63 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Dysentery... is epidemic in the third world...
It's really bad. Really fatal. Really yucky.
I thought dysentery had multiple causes?
I poop too much, then I get tired.
68 | SasyMomaCat Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:57:52am |
wow, small crowd this a.m. - and slow moving conversation.
70 | Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:58:20am |
re: #68 SasyMomaCat
wow, small crowd this a.m. - and slow moving conversation.
It's Monday. I imagine half the lizard population is still fumbling to get their caffeine IVs in.
71 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:59:01am |
Dunno... was just trying to some make sense of the Gates trying to cure diarrhea.
There's no immunization, but the anti-biotics necessary to fight it once the cause is figured out?
Yeah, I'm talking out my ass...
72 | Obdicut Mon, Feb 1, 2010 5:59:08am |
re: #65 RogueOne
If something could get the Huffpo to exercise more quality control, that'd be a good thing. Their heavy flirtation with all kinds of pseudo-science alone is shameful.
73 | SasyMomaCat Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:00:48am |
re: #70 thedopefishlives
good possibility - I wish I could get a bit more in my system before this meeting.
74 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:00:48am |
re: #62 SteveC
Big deal. It snows so much here that we have to crap into a shotgun and fire it up the chimney.
You know... that visual...
75 | Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:01:23am |
re: #73 SasyMomaCat
good possibility - I wish I could get a bit more in my system before this meeting.
You and me both, but I'm trying to cut back on the carbonated-beverage habit (as well as cutting back a bit on spending as I try to make the transition into the new fishbowl).
76 | DaddyG Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:01:54am |
re: #71 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Dunno... was just trying to some make sense of the Gates trying to cure diarrhea.
There's no immunization, but the anti-biotics necessary to fight it once the cause is figured out?
Yeah, I'm talking out my ass...
The Gates' foundation could be looking at underlying diseases that cause dyssentary (e.g. cholera).
/Of course the snarkier part of me wants to make a joke about Microsoft code and immunizing the world from some of the stuff that comes from Redmond WA.
78 | RogueOne Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:03:58am |
re: #72 Obdicut
I just found it amusing, Huffington lecturing someone else on proper behavior when dealing in political disagreements. "Pot meet Kettle" and all that.
79 | SteveC Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:04:06am |
re: #72 Obdicut
If something could get the Huffpo to exercise more quality control, that'd be a good thing. Their heavy flirtation with all kinds of pseudo-science alone is shameful.
I've highlighted this blog here before, Respectful Insolence. The author, who uses the name Orac, often writes about the "Woo" found at Huffington and other places.
80 | DaddyG Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:06:24am |
Speaking of dyssentary, third world and all...
It looks as if the aid may me saving Haiti from some of the worst after effects of disaster in poor nations like disease and starvation.
My thoughts have turned to the long term effect of this disaster and how the US and other nations in a position to provide substancial long term aid will handle Haiti's government going forward.
How do we help them with infrastructure and future development without the powers there using the aid to line their own pockets. On the other hand if we do take a strong position in terms of governing the rebuild how do we avoid the inevitable problems with looking like an imperial power and taking blame for everything that does go wrong?
81 | iceweasel Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:07:44am |
re: #65 RogueOne
Anyone see Roger Ailes slap around Arianna Huffington on ABC this weekend? She was trying to hammer him on Beck and he came back with some of the things said about him on the Huffington post.
I hadn't seen that yet, heard about it somewhere. I'll check it out-- I share Obdicut's opinion though of HuffPo, especially for the various crazy anti-science faux 'health' and medicine coverage there.
Krugman put a smackdown on Ailes this week though, calling out Fox News for deliberate misinformation.
83 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:08:40am |
re: #80 DaddyG
It might take us an entire thread to sort everything out and find the solution for Haiti's problems.
/
85 | DaddyG Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:10:26am |
I could personally care less about the major news outlets having peeing contests over who is more accurate and more-or-less ideologically driven. None of them have the credibility they presume to have.
86 | DaddyG Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:11:06am |
re: #83 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
It might take us an entire thread to sort everything out and find the solution for Haiti's problems.
/
Oh- at least a thread. But the world will be better off for us having put in the time. /
87 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:11:57am |
Female splodey-dope.
At least 41 people died and more than 100 were wounded in the attack, which took place in an industrial district on the northern edge of the city, according to initial reports from security officials, who said the toll could rise.
The bomber, perhaps because she was a woman, was able to mingle among Iraqis making an annual pilgrimage to Shiite Islam’s holiest shrine before detonating a hidden vest packed with explosives, an Interior Ministry official said.
SNIP
88 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:14:38am |
re: #87 MandyManners
Splodey-dope wearing an abaya. Could've been a boy.
89 | RogueOne Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:15:02am |
re: #79 SteveC
I've highlighted this blog here before, Respectful Insolence. The author, who uses the name Orac, often writes about the "Woo" found at Huffington and other places.
Nice site. I'm starting to think the hitler video meme is past the point of being played out. I just read something on FARK (I think) last week where the director of that movie thought all the remixes were great. His favorite was the Michael Jackson death ruining hitlers party.
90 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:15:27am |
"Ultimately ... we will have to capitulate and accept Macmillan's terms because Macmillan has a monopoly over their own titles, and we will want to offer them to you even at prices we believe are needlessly high for e-books," Amazon said in a message to customers on its website.
Amazon said Macmillan told them that they want to charge $12.99 to $14.99 for e-book versions of bestsellers and most hardcover releases. Amazon currently charges $9.99 for the e-book version of most new releases and bestsellers.
Amazon temporarily removed all titles published by Macmillan from its website, saying the move would express its "strong disagreement and the seriousness of (its) disagreement" on pricing. Macmillan titles, including "Sarah's Key" by Tatiana de Rosnay, were only available for purchase on Amazon's website through third parties on Sunday.
Amazon is facing pressure from publishers concerned about dwindling royalties, as well as new, formidable entrants like Apple Inc (AAPL.O) that could squeeze what e-booksellers make from each title. Apple unveiled its iPad tablet computer on Wednesday.
SNIP
91 | SteveC Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:15:30am |
re: #85 DaddyG
I could personally care less about the major news outlets having peeing contests over who is more accurate and more-or-less ideologically driven. None of them have the credibility they presume to have.
Given the scope of the medical need in Haiti, dropping the microphone and jumping into the fray to help wounded people is admirable. But doing so as a journalist also raises ethical concerns and charges of self-promotion.
92 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:21:06am |
Wakefield's study has since been discredited, and the MMR vaccine deemed to be safe. But now medical authorities in the U.K. have also ruled that the manner in which Wakefield carried out his research was unethical. In a ruling on Jan. 28, The General Medical Council, which registers and regulates doctors in the U.K., ruled that Wakefield acted "dishonestly and irresponsibly" during his research and with "callous disregard" for the children involved in his study.
(See the year in health 2009.)After the finding, Wakefield, who now heads an autism research center in Austin, Texas, described the decision as "unfounded and unjust." He added that he had "no regrets" over his work.
The General Medical Council, which will now decide whether to revoke Wakefield's medical license, highlighted several areas where Wakefield acted against the interest of the children involved in the 1998 study. It criticized Wakefield for carrying out invasive tests, such as colonoscopies and spinal taps, without due regard for how the children involved might be affected. It also cited Wakefield's method of gathering blood samples — he paid children at his son's birthday party $8 to give blood — and said that Wakefield displayed a "callous disregard for the distress and pain the children might suffer."
The panel also criticized Wakefield for failing to disclose that, while carrying out the research, he was being paid by lawyers acting for parents who believed their children had been harmed by the MMR jab.
SNIP
Despite this, the effects of the media frenzy surrounding Wakefield's research — a study found that MMR was the most written about science topic in the U.K. in 2002 — continue to be felt in Britain. Vaccination rates among toddlers plummeted from over 90% in the mid-1990s to below 70% in some places by 2003. Following this drop, Britain saw an increase in measles cases at a time when the disease had been all but eradicated in many developed countries. In 1998, there were just 56 cases of the disease in England and Wales; by 2008 there were 1,370.
SNIP
95 | Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:23:25am |
96 | freetoken Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:24:01am |
4.8 off the coast of Tijuana... not too big, but still too close:
[Link: earthquake.usgs.gov...]
97 | Political Atheist Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:24:37am |
re: #94 freetoken
I got nothin in LA. We are not too far apart, I think. What is your area?
98 | Mad Al-Jaffee Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:26:00am |
re: #93 freetoken
One of my Facebook friends this weekend posted a status saying something about all his friends in Memphis should be prepared, with plenty of supplies, if an earthquake hits there. If it does, our government won't help because they don't care what happens to black people.
I was tempted to reply that nobody should worry since Bush and Cheney no longer have access to the earthquake and hurricane machine. But I didn't feel like stirring anything up.
99 | Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:27:17am |
re: #98 Mad Al-Jaffee
One of my Facebook friends this weekend posted a status saying something about all his friends in Memphis should be prepared, with plenty of supplies, if an earthquake hits there. If it does, our government won't help because they don't care what happens to black people.
I was tempted to reply that nobody should worry since Bush and Cheney no longer have access to the earthquake and hurricane machine. But I didn't feel like stirring anything up.
I think it would've been worth it just to see the massive whinefest that would've ensued. I bet you could've gotten some Crazy Louie Farrakhan type comments if you'd pushed hard enough.
100 | Political Atheist Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:27:24am |
re: #96 freetoken
a rude awakening indeed.
101 | Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:27:49am |
re: #96 freetoken
4.8 off the coast of Tijuana... not too big, but still too close:
[Link: earthquake.usgs.gov...]
Is that what you crazy Californians use for alarm clocks or something?
102 | freetoken Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:28:55am |
re: #97 Rightwingconspirator
I'm in the middle of San Diego county... it was not a big quake, but I was close enough to it for the building to shake and for it get me out of bed.
The quakes seem to like to come in the early hours of the morning - suppose I should look into that and see if it is true.
103 | Political Atheist Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:32:21am |
re: #102 freetoken
1971 Sylmar, Northridge, both were maorning. '89 Loma Prieta-early evening. Some have speculated tidal forces play into the timing.
104 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:32:27am |
re: #98 Mad Al-Jaffee
Oh, go ahead and stir it up...
106 | SteveC Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:32:45am |
re: #102 freetoken
The quakes seem to like to come in the early hours of the morning - suppose I should look into that and see if it is true.
The same diabolical gremlins that makes the batteries in my smoke detector wear out in the middle of the night (causing it to beep every five minutes until they are changed!)
107 | Mad Al-Jaffee Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:32:57am |
re: #104 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Oh, go ahead and stir it up...
Too late. He already changed his status, and I can't access FB at work.
108 | Mad Al-Jaffee Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:33:58am |
re: #102 freetoken
Are you sure you just didn't have Taco Bell for dinner last night? :)
109 | Political Atheist Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:34:03am |
re: #98 Mad Al-Jaffee
There we have a very, very racist attitude. Reminds me Nagin and the "Chocolate City and his "hole in the ground" remarks.
110 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:34:10am |
re: #102 freetoken
I've spent three days in San Diego.
But, I was at the Del.
Lovely town you've got there. The lobby was beautiful. My room overlooked the marina. Seriously. Everyone should live in San Diego.
(never really left the hotel, was a convention thingy)
111 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:34:14am |
re: #98 Mad Al-Jaffee
One of my Facebook friends this weekend posted a status saying something about all his friends in Memphis should be prepared, with plenty of supplies, if an earthquake hits there. If it does, our government won't help because they don't care what happens to black people.
I was tempted to reply that nobody should worry since Bush and Cheney no longer have access to the earthquake and hurricane machine. But I didn't feel like stirring anything up.
Since when//
112 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:34:47am |
re: #102 freetoken
I'm in the middle of San Diego county... it was not a big quake, but I was close enough to it for the building to shake and for it get me out of bed.
The quakes seem to like to come in the early hours of the morning - suppose I should look into that and see if it is true.
everything (you, your neighbors) is ok, though, right?
113 | Mad Al-Jaffee Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:35:17am |
re: #111 Aceofwhat?
Since when//
Not on FB. Most of my friends there are pretty liberal and I don't like getting into political arguments/discussions with them.
114 | SteveC Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:36:08am |
Since all the West Coasters seem to be OK, I guess it's all right the post this...
115 | lawhawk Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:36:23am |
re: #96 freetoken
Sorry about that... just calibrating Grazer 1... //////
116 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:36:33am |
re: #113 Mad Al-Jaffee
Not on FB. Most of my friends there are pretty liberal and I don't like getting into political arguments/discussions with them.
Oh, yeah, gotcha - FB is a tough place to hash out sensitive subjects.
117 | Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:36:51am |
re: #115 lawhawk
Sorry about that... just calibrating Grazer 1... ///
You of all people should know, we don't play with the Zionist world-altering devices until AFTER 9:00 in the morning./
118 | Mad Al-Jaffee Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:36:58am |
re: #110 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
My housemate is from San Diego. I think she saw snow for the first time in her life in 2008.
119 | laZardo Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:38:33am |
MORNING HONCOS!
I'm all for cleaning up the environment, but according to Jalopnik, this new ad series sponsored by Audi literally redefines the term "Eco-Nazi."
/ Jeremy Clarkson will never let Audi live it down. :D
120 | SteveC Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:38:49am |
re: #115 lawhawk
Sorry about that... just calibrating Grazer 1... ///
How many times have we told you to have the safety switches set AND the planetary shift dampeners engaged before you fire that puppy up!?!?!
121 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:38:58am |
re: #110 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I've spent three days in San Diego.
But, I was at the Del.
Lovely town you've got there. The lobby was beautiful. My room overlooked the marina. Seriously. Everyone should live in San Diego.
(never really left the hotel, was a convention thingy)
I live in Jacksonville, not to far from the beach, and we can't hold a candle to the natural beauty + weather of San Diego. That city is nigh unto heaven on earth...
122 | lawhawk Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:39:22am |
re: #98 Mad Al-Jaffee
People should be prepared for natural disasters with go-bags and a supply of food and water that can last a couple of days to enable self sufficiency before any government assistance can be provided. That's just common sense, regardless of who's in office.
Besides, it's up to the state and local authorities to provide the first response (and the feds can come in only after they are invited pursuant to Posse Comitatus Act). If your local officials are mo-rons (as writ large in NOLA), then the response can and will be delayed/screwed up/ignore existing emergency plans). That's why you need to practice a certain amount of self sufficiency for natural disasters.
123 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:39:31am |
re: #118 Mad Al-Jaffee
"Easiest job in America? Weather man in San Diego. 'And now over to Bob with the weather...'. 'Nice!', Back to you Bill."
-Lewis Black
124 | lawhawk Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:39:56am |
re: #117 thedopefishlives
It's 9AM somewhere in the world... /bwhahaha
125 | lawhawk Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:41:17am |
re: #120 SteveC
Those who are responsible have been sacked.
Those who are responsible for the sacking have themselves been sacked. /
126 | Mad Al-Jaffee Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:41:33am |
re: #119 laZardo
I like the Perille calendar story on that site. Too bad I'm at work.
127 | Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:42:05am |
re: #125 lawhawk
Those who are responsible have been sacked.
Those who are responsible for the sacking have themselves been sacked. /
You need to hire a more competent staff to calibrate your weapons of mass distraction. Might I suggest a moose?
128 | SteveC Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:42:09am |
re: #124 lawhawk
It's 9AM somewhere in the world... /bwhahaha
Oh, no... Do not mess with the time shift settings, I don't wanna relive last week!
130 | laZardo Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:43:53am |
re: #129 mikey706
That is what the Loose Changers call "LIHOP." Letting It Happen On Purpose.
/HURR twoofer fuel.
131 | lawhawk Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:45:07am |
How long before this truthful AP headline gets replaced?
Obama unveils $3.83T budget with massive deficits
You can't blame that on Bush. That's his budget. He chose to massively expand the deficit (while claiming he's going to be a deficit hawk starting next year.
132 | Mad Al-Jaffee Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:45:07am |
OMG! Obama and Biden went to a Georgetown basketball game! They're so awesome, because they go to sporting events like regular people, and they're NOT Bush and Cheney!
[Link: dcist.com...]
133 | laZardo Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:45:21am |
re: #123 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
"Easiest job in America? Weather man in San Diego. 'And now over to Bob with the weather...'. 'Nice!', Back to you Bill."
-Lewis Black
134 | SteveC Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:45:50am |
re: #129 mikey706
Registered since: Dec 4, 2009 at 11:26 am
No. of comments posted: 4
Karma: 5
Al-Jaffee I know, and Dopefish I know, but who the fuck are you?
135 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:47:07am |
re: #127 thedopefishlives
Might I suggest a moose?
I never can see a sentence like that without thinking of John Candy saying, "Sorry folks, park's closed. Moose out front shoulda told ya."
136 | Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:47:30am |
re: #128 SteveC
Oh, no... Do not mess with the time shift settings, I don't wanna relive last week!
Apparently, it's too late for that, as it's snowing outside. Either he hit the weather control settings or it's last week all over again. Sigh.
137 | rwdflynavy Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:48:33am |
re: #121 Aceofwhat?
I live in Jacksonville, not to far from the beach, and we can't hold a candle to the natural beauty + weather of San Diego. That city is nigh unto heaven on earth...
I live in Jax as well! I'm inter-coastal west area.
138 | SteveC Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:48:43am |
re: #136 thedopefishlives
Apparently, it's too late for that, as it's snowing outside. Either he hit the weather control settings or it's last week all over again. Sigh.
I have no idea how this is going to turn out, but I can predict we'll be filling out forms for a MONTH!
139 | Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:49:23am |
re: #138 SteveC
I have no idea how this is going to turn out, but I can predict we'll be filling out forms for a MONTH!
Great. More delays for my Zionist check. Some people live or die by that money, buddy!
140 | iceweasel Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:51:08am |
re: #134 SteveC
Registered since: Dec 4, 2009 at 11:26 am
No. of comments posted: 4
Karma: 5Al-Jaffee I know, and Dopefish I know, but who the fuck are you?
He seems to be someone new trying to join the conversation, that's all. His comment certainly didn't seem to be endorsing that crazy HotAir stuff-- just the opposite.
Least, that's how I read it.
141 | Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:52:28am |
re: #140 iceweasel
He seems to be someone new trying to join the conversation, that's all. His comment certainly didn't seem to be endorsing that crazy HotAir stuff-- just the opposite.
Least, that's how I read it.
Yeah. He correctly identified the HotAir post as, and I quote, "completely batshit crazy", so I give him some credit.
Anyhow, off to an all-day meeting. Enjoy the day, lizards, and the troll barbecue is warmed and ready if you need it. Bacon-wrapped is the flavor of the day.
142 | laZardo Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:54:08am |
re: #141 thedopefishlives
Yeah. He correctly identified the HotAir post as, and I quote, "completely batshit crazy", so I give him some credit.
Anyhow, off to an all-day meeting. Enjoy the day, lizards, and the troll barbecue is warmed and ready if you need it. Bacon-wrapped is the flavor of the day.
Kosher members may find suitable alternatives in the kitchen. O:
143 | SteveC Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:54:38am |
One of those "Please answer ASAP!" emails just came in. I hope everyone has a good day!
144 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:54:45am |
Hey! Am I first?
HAPPY BLACK HISTORY MONTH!
146 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:56:19am |
re: #137 rwdflynavy
I live in Jax as well! I'm inter-coastal west area.
Beaches area for me. Love it here.
148 | Mad Al-Jaffee Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:58:03am |
re: #144 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Hey! Am I first?
HAPPY BLACK HISTORY MONTH!
Shortest month of the year. Coincidence?
/
149 | iceweasel Mon, Feb 1, 2010 6:59:42am |
re: #129 mikey706
I believe we may have a Hotair 'completely batshit crazy' quote of the day! And its only 9:42 am est
That really is 20 lbs of crazy in a 5 pound bag there. A wish for a successful terrorist attack on the US in the belief that it will 'wake us up' (huh?), the claim that no matter how many Americans die it will be 'worth it' because it will 'finish' the so-called Socialist Obama, and the hope that Obama will simply 'nuke' Iran. Because there aren't any civilians there who really want their government changed or anything, I guess.
HotAir is filled with murderous bastards, imo. I just hope they're all posting from their mother's basement and restrict their actions to violent internet postings.
150 | NJDhockeyfan Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:00:55am |
Good morning lizards!
Great story this morning...
Restaurant treats Army Reserve unit to steak dinner
LAVALE — Chefs at Western Sizzlin’ grilled enough steaks to feed an Army Sunday.
Literally.
A line of camouflage-wearing men and women stretched 20 yards outside the restaurant’s doors late Sunday morning as members of the 372nd Military Police Company of the U.S. Army Reserve gathered for lunch on the final day of their annual two-week training mission.
The unit, which has been eating lunch at Western Sizzlin’ every day since training began earlier this month, has received a “warning order” for possible deployment overseas in the months ahead.
“We decided we wanted to do something nice for them,” said Western Sizzlin’ owner Bruce Snyder, who fed the soldiers steaks on Sunday instead of just the buffet.
Inside the restaurant, a “We Support 372nd MP” banner included personal messages from Western Sizzlin’ employees. “Take care and come home safe,” one said. “Thank you for serving our country.”
Red, white and blue balloons and ribbons filled the dining area.
“We wanted them to have something real nice to remember,” Snyder said.
151 | lawhawk Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:01:07am |
re: #147 MandyManners
You've got your concerns (about quakes in the New Madrid fault zone).
I've got mine. I just don't want anything to blow until after I've gotten a chance to see it in person (which will be later this year - trip's already planned to hit Yellowstone, Grand Teton, Fossil Beds, Craters of the Moon and stops in between).
152 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:01:14am |
re: #149 iceweasel
Just another illustration of why I don't go to other sites.
154 | laZardo Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:02:21am |
re: #152 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Just another illustration of why I don't go to other sites.
Speaking of which, I had a tab open to 4chan when you posted your #144.
/i'm not racist. i hate EVERYONE.
155 | iceweasel Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:02:54am |
re: #152 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Just another illustration of why I don't go to other sites.
Last time I checked out the HotAir comments someone was offering his services to the admin there to track down and kill a liberal poster.
His crime? Calling someone an internet patriot.
158 | MrSilverDragon Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:07:11am |
Great morning, folks! I'm trying optimism today, but I have my doubts...
(Ah... humor.)
159 | lawhawk Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:07:46am |
While some folks looked at the Bush years as a job-less recovery (and that the overall number of jobs created during the 2000-2009 period were a measly 400,000; with the end of the recession due to back to back growth in 3Q and 4Q 2009, we may be seeing a job-loss recovery. Jobs keep hemorrhaging and the situation doesn't look promising.
160 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:09:38am |
re: #158 MrSilverDragon
Lieutenant Steven Hauk: I understand you're pretty funny as a dee-jay and, well, comedy is kind of a hobby of mine. Well, actually, it's a little more than just a hobby, Reader's Digest is considering publishing two of my jokes.
-Good Morning Vietnam
161 | SasyMomaCat Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:10:06am |
back from the meeting - and my map is still processing. I think there might be something wrong here, as it SHOULD be done . . . so, I'm only sort-of back. Gotta figure out this durn program's issues.
162 | laZardo Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:11:09am |
re: #158 MrSilverDragon
Great morning, folks! I'm trying optimism today, but I have my doubts...
(Ah... humor.)
I'm actually gonna volunteer at raising the positivity levels of this thread by...taking a shower. q: BBL.
163 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:11:26am |
re: #155 iceweasel
I do not doubt that something like that will happen one day. Gonna be a sad, sad day.
164 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:11:42am |
re: #151 lawhawk
You've got your concerns (about quakes in the New Madrid fault zone).
I've got mine. I just don't want anything to blow until after I've gotten a chance to see it in person (which will be later this year - trip's already planned to hit Yellowstone, Grand Teton, Fossil Beds, Craters of the Moon and stops in between).
I'm concerned for my relatives there, and for folks as far away from them as Chicago, New Orleans, Detroit, and a whole lot of other places. If you read through this compilation of accounts, another series of quakes like the ones starting in 1811, there will be incredible death and destruction.
165 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:13:17am |
166 | SasyMomaCat Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:13:41am |
re: #164 MandyManners
I've got friends and family that live along the New Madrid fault line. I remember earthquake drills from high school, which seemed really kind of weird, since most of us had never been in an earthquake that was actually detectable without instruments.
167 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:15:33am |
Blew me away. Pink at the Grammys.
168 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:21:25am |
A small shock was felt at Detroit on the 17th December. The atmosphere was serene, but cold. Thirty miles northwest of that village is a lake about nine miles in circumference, of an oval form, and which is supposed to have communication under ground with Lake Sinclair. In the centre of this lake there is an island of perhaps three miles in circumference, inhabited only by Indians. They relate, that on the said 17th December the waters of the lake appeared to tremble, and boil like a great pot over a hot fire; and immediately a vast number of large tortoises rose to the surface, and swam rapidly to the shore, where they were taken for food.
In this last shock, the water in the river Mississippi was thrown into commotion, bubbling like boiling water; and, in a few minutes, the whole atmosphere was filled with smoke or fog, so that a boat could not be seen within twenty paces from the water's edge; and the houses were so shrouded as not to be seen fifty feet; this smoke continued all the forepart of that day.
During the time of the shock, the heavens were very clear and serene; there being not a breath of air stirring; but in five minutes it became very dark; and a vapour which seemed to impregnate the atmosphere, had a disagreeable smell, and produced a difficulty of breathing. This darkness continued until nearly the break of day. During its continuance there were six more shocks. About half after six it cleared up. However, the danger was increased by another shock, which racked the houses violently, and threw down the chimneys. The darkness returned, and it was accompanied by loud noises, and a bounding motion up and down. Many persons were so alarmed that they formed encampments in the fields. The shocks were repeated from time to time, until the 28th, and then amounted to sixty-seven.
Accounts from Little Prairie (note 1) stated that ponds had been converted to upland, and dry land to lakes; that the banks of the river had sunk and fallen in to great extent; that cracks had been formed in the earth; that water had gushed out; and that there was a strange and chaotic mixture of the elements. In some places, sand, mud, water, and stone-coal were reported to have been thrown up thirty yards high.
Thirdly; a more full and circumstantial history of those eruptions and commotions was drawn up by Mr. William Leigh Pierce, who, at the time of their occurrence, was passing down the Mississippi in a boat.
After having described the occurrences of the 16th, 17th, and 18th, up to the 19th, he wrote from the Big Prairie, under date of December 25th, to his acquaintance in New-York, a very circumstantial account, which was published in the journals of the time. His narrative abounds with facts showing the irresistible and ruinous effects of the commotion, which he thinks might have been considered as protracted to the surprising length of one hundred and seventy-eight hours.
Fourthly; to these I subjoin another respectable communication, from Mr. Joseph Ficklin of Russelville, (Ken.) who thus describes the earthquakes, in a letter dated February 5, 1812: "The shocks continue. The accounts that you will see in the Nashville and Lexington papers may be confided in. I have conversed with several persons from New Madrid, all of whom confirm the above. The bottom of the Mississippi river, two under miles west of this place, was cracked in some places fifteen feet in width, and cast up warm water sufficient to inundate the settlement from one to two feet.
169 | albusteve Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:21:55am |
The president has openly declared we are at war with international terrorists. But his actions indicate he's waging a second, secret war against the defense industry here at home.
Read more at the Washington Examiner: [Link: www.washingtonexaminer.com...]
170 | Donna Ballard Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:21:57am |
re: #62 SteveC
Big deal. It snows so much here that we have to crap into a shotgun and fire it up the chimney.
Funny, but mental picture not appreciated. Good Morning and Happy Monday, BTW!
172 | Semper Fi Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:23:21am |
re: #167 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Blew me away. Pink at the Grammys.
Thanks. I missed the Grammys but I won't forget that soon. Outstanding.
Good morning, Lizard Nation.
173 | NJDhockeyfan Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:24:45am |
WTF...moonbat in NK?
Report: Detained American seeks asylum in NKorea
SEOUL, South Korea -- An American man detained by North Korea after allegedly entering the communist country illegally has sought asylum and wants to join its military, a news report said Saturday.
South Korea's Dong-a Ilbo newspaper said the man crossed into North Korea from China on Monday.
It said an unidentified source in North Korea told the newspaper the 28-year-old man said he came to the country because he did not "want to become a cannon fodder in the capitalist military," and "wants to serve in the North Korean military" instead.
The National Intelligence Service, South Korea's top spy agency, said it could not immediately confirm the report. The U.S. Embassy in Seoul said it had no such information.
On Thursday, the North's official Korean Central News Agency reported an American was arrested Monday for trespassing and his case was under investigation.
174 | Mad Al-Jaffee Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:25:18am |
175 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:26:18am |
re: #168 MandyManners
Interesting reading early accounts of geological phenomena from laity.
That was a cool read.
176 | Donna Ballard Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:27:26am |
re: #171 MandyManners
A volcano?
Nope, I believe its a really deep fault left over from when the super continent "Pangia" broke up and it slips every now and then. I love geology! Wish I'd gotten my degree in, but you know how hindsight is... Did you know that there is rift valley forming from New Mexico up through the middle of the United states? We have another one forming here in California, its called Death Valley. Cool huh?
177 | albusteve Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:27:48am |
What a lot of Americans don't know is that liberals can indeed make the connection, but they resist it for one simple reason: more private sector success equals less need for government. Less need for government equals less power for big-government liberals. Less power for big-government liberals with monstrous, "we know what's better for you than you do" egos equals an unacceptable trade off.
why not just make tax cuts illegal?....
[Link: jewishworldreview.com...]
178 | Donna Ballard Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:29:07am |
re: #175 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Interesting reading early accounts of geological phenomena from laity.?
Did you mean Italy?
179 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:29:23am |
re: #169 albusteve
The president has openly declared we are at war with international terrorists. But his actions indicate he's waging a second, secret war against the defense industry here at home.
Read more at the Washington Examiner: [Link: www.washingtonexaminer.com...]
I heard something this morning about the C-17 being on the chopping block.
180 | albusteve Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:29:27am |
181 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:30:05am |
182 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:30:31am |
183 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:31:07am |
re: #178 Dragon_Lady
No silly.
Laity. I know it has religious meanings too. I mean; The unschooled? Non-academia?
184 | Donna Ballard Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:31:13am |
185 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:31:58am |
re: #183 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
No silly.
Laity. I know it has religious meanings too. I mean; The unschooled? Non-academia?
The people who would say, "There, there be monsters..."
186 | Donna Ballard Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:32:14am |
re: #183 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
No silly.
Laity. I know it has religious meanings too. I mean; The unschooled? Non-academia?
ahhhh, you got me! I was never very good at Latin...hahaha!
187 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:33:02am |
re: #175 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Interesting reading early accounts of geological phenomena from laity.
That was a cool read.
"Laity" was all they had back then. I wonder what kind of accounts could have been collected from the inhabitants of Kansas and Olklahoma.
188 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:33:22am |
re: #176 Dragon_Lady
Nope, I believe its a really deep fault left over from when the super continent "Pangia" broke up and it slips every now and then. I love geology! Wish I'd gotten my degree in, but you know how hindsight is... Did you know that there is rift valley forming from New Mexico up through the middle of the United states? We have another one forming here in California, its called Death Valley. Cool huh?
What caused the water to boil?
189 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:33:58am |
190 | albusteve Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:34:08am |
re: #179 MandyManners
I heard something this morning about the C-17 being on the chopping block.
another golden example of liberal 'support' for the armed forces...the blurb also mentions cuts to the F-35 program, the very plane they said we needed
191 | lawhawk Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:34:13am |
re: #173 NJDhockeyfan
Someone like that will be honored and treated like royalty; it's a propaganda coup if true. They wont have to succumb to the daily grind like millions of North Koreans do - both to survive and to subsist - and that's not counting the millions more in the North Korean gulag archipelago.
Then again, the North Koreans are so damned screwed, this guy doesn't know what fresh level of Hell he's getting himself in to.
192 | Mad Al-Jaffee Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:34:20am |
re: #184 Dragon_Lady
Good, have you ever smelled that stuff? Man it stinks!
I like it! One of the things I love about Korean restaurants is all of the unique side dishes and condiments you get with your meal.
193 | The Sanity Inspector Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:34:24am |
194 | SasyMomaCat Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:34:27am |
re: #188 MandyManners
It's my guess that the water wasn't actually boiling but, rather, appeared to be because of the underwater upheaval.
195 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:34:36am |
re: #184 Dragon_Lady
Good, have you ever smelled that stuff? Man it stinks!
Well, then, I hope he has nothing but that to eat.
196 | NJDhockeyfan Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:34:40am |
Yahoo Wipes "Ariel, Israel" Off The Map, Replaces It With "Jenin, Palestinian Occupied Territories"
...Apparently someone has convinced Yahoo to go into their News Weather data, erase "Ariel, Israel" as a valid location, and replace it "Jenin, Palestinian Occupied Territories." The 20,000 residents from Ariel, where the relevant weather station is built, apparently don't deserve their own weather. Yahoo has decreed that it belongs to the residents of Jenin, which is 25 miles north and 850 feet lower. It's absurd that this kind of petty crap even has to be addressed, but inasmuch as it's part and parcel of a broad-based replacement geography campaign it's unfortunately not trivial.
197 | lawhawk Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:35:03am |
re: #194 SasyMomaCat
Probably due to gas releases from along the rupture zone (methane, co2, etc.).
198 | Ericus58 Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:35:49am |
re: #167 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Blew me away. Pink at the Grammys.
O...M...G
That was Cirque quality. Awesome.
199 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:36:09am |
re: #191 lawhawk
"Better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven".
-Milton, Paradise Lost
"I gotta know right now, will you love forever?"
-Meatloaf, Paradise by the Dashboard Light
201 | Donna Ballard Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:36:22am |
re: #188 MandyManners
What caused the water to boil?
Air bubbles come up from pockets in the sand as the ground settled, there were sand blows and all kinds of neat things going on at the time. Like the Mississippi flowed backward for three days after ward and tremors that went on for days. Weird, I know but I love this stuff...:-)
202 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:36:33am |
re: #190 albusteve
another golden example of liberal 'support' for the armed forces...the blurb also mentions cuts to the F-35 program, the very plane they said we needed
The F-22's gone and now they're going after the Joint Strike Fighter. I want to retch.
203 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:37:03am |
204 | Donna Ballard Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:37:09am |
Here we go again, dbl posts when I hit the button once. Sorry bout that folks.
205 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:37:52am |
re: #198 Ericus58
O...M...G
That was Cirque quality. Awesome.
While singing the whole time.
My second favorite Grammy moment of all time. My first was Metallica doing "One". Was the first time I had ever heard a Metallica song... the look, the sound, was crazy.
206 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:37:53am |
re: #194 SasyMomaCat
It's my guess that the water wasn't actually boiling but, rather, appeared to be because of the underwater upheaval.
One account said that the water was warm.
207 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:38:29am |
re: #204 Dragon_Lady
I think you're the only one who sees them. No worries.
208 | SasyMomaCat Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:38:49am |
re: #206 MandyManners
I would imagine gas being released from deep in the earth would tend to the warmer side, so would likely heat the water to some extent. Just a guess, though ... I'm certainly not a geologist.
209 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:39:06am |
re: #196 NJDhockeyfan
Yahoo Wipes "Ariel, Israel" Off The Map, Replaces It With "Jenin, Palestinian Occupied Territories"
What the bloody fuck?
210 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:39:44am |
re: #201 Dragon_Lady
Air bubbles come up from pockets in the sand as the ground settled, there were sand blows and all kinds of neat things going on at the time. Like the Mississippi flowed backward for three days after ward and tremors that went on for days. Weird, I know but I love this stuff...:-)
I grew up near Reelfoot Lake.
211 | SasyMomaCat Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:39:45am |
re: #206 MandyManners
Too, depending on what else came up through the rifts (i.e., magma), I suppose it actually could have boiled some along with all of the other "stuff."
212 | Donna Ballard Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:40:14am |
re: #192 Mad Al-Jaffee
I like it! One of the things I love about Korean restaurants is all of the unique side dishes and condiments you get with your meal.
Yeah, I've heard that it tastes better than it smells but I could never get past my nose. I used to work in an office that connected to a Korean owned business and the heated the Kimche on a regular basis for lunch. Quickest way to clear the office, let me tell you!
213 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:40:21am |
re: #208 SasyMomaCat
I would imagine gas being released from deep in the earth would tend to the warmer side, so would likely heat the water to some extent. Just a guess, though ... I'm certainly not a geologist.
And, that would account for the nasty smell in the air.
214 | The Sanity Inspector Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:40:44am |
An interesting backgrounder on honor killing is in Forbes magazine, of all places.
A much older code than Islam is at work here, one that Islam doesn't entirely repudiate as it tries to accommodate and sanctify tribal tradition. The more innocent the victim, the more she must be sacrificed because the curse is all the more palpably divine for being arbitrary. Muslim conservatives often try to retro-justify the situation by assertions that the girl no doubt behaved lewdly or failed to follow parental rules. Even if true, what law was the rapist following? The answer you will get, literally, is this: He was following the law of nature. He was possessed with desire, spontaneously and irretrievably, couldn't curb himself, shouldn't be blamed. In effect, he was possessed by the gods, or the Djinns, and became their instrument. He deserves merciful understanding.
215 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:40:45am |
re: #211 SasyMomaCat
Too, depending on what else came up through the rifts (i.e., magma), I suppose it actually could have boiled some along with all of the other "stuff."
Scared the turtles.
216 | NJDhockeyfan Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:41:08am |
re: #208 SasyMomaCat
I would imagine gas being released from deep in the earth would tend to the warmer side, so would likely heat the water to some extent. Just a guess, though ... I'm certainly not a geologist.
An Earth fart?
217 | SasyMomaCat Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:41:12am |
re: #213 MandyManners
true - can you imagine that much methane released into the atmosphere at one time? Whew, and I think it's bad when my son has something "gassy" for lunch!
218 | SasyMomaCat Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:42:22am |
re: #215 MandyManners
ha, yeah - they got a rude awakening, for sure! and then ended up as dinner ...
219 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:42:39am |
re: #214 The Sanity Inspector
An interesting backgrounder on honor killing is in Forbes magazine, of all places.
Will CAIR pitch a fit?
220 | Donna Ballard Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:42:41am |
re: #210 MandyManners
I grew up near Reelfoot Lake.
Pardon my ignorance but where is that? Near the Mississippi river?
221 | The Sanity Inspector Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:42:42am |
re: #196 NJDhockeyfan
Yahoo Wipes "Ariel, Israel" Off The Map, Replaces It With "Jenin, Palestinian Occupied Territories"
Drip drip drip delegitimization of the Jewish State is after all the strategy du jour.
Good line.
222 | albusteve Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:42:52am |
More than 22,000 meals have been distributed to stranded storm victims, along with nearly 27,000 gallons of water, 2,500 blankets from the Red Cross and 125 cots. The rescue effort covers some 20,000 square miles across the Navajo and Hopi reservations, much of it covered by 5- to 8-foot snowdrifts that make road travel impossible.
this is right here...In America...anybody interested?
[Link: www.azcentral.com...]
donate to these guys, they are one of the best...
[Link: www.nrcprograms.org...]
223 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:43:04am |
224 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:44:08am |
re: #217 SasyMomaCat
true - can you imagine that much methane released into the atmosphere at one time? Whew, and I think it's bad when my son has something "gassy" for lunch!
Speaking of the devil, The Kid's out of school for in-service training for the teachers today. We're both having a lazy day--he's just now getting out of bed. bbiab
225 | SasyMomaCat Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:45:58am |
re: #224 MandyManners
Ah, enjoy your day together! Mine is out due to driving conditions - still icy from the weekend, especially out in the county, so school is out. Wish I was home with him instead of here at work . . .
226 | Mad Al-Jaffee Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:46:11am |
re: #212 Dragon_Lady
It tastes like spicey, garlicy cabbage.
227 | SasyMomaCat Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:46:29am |
re: #226 Mad Al-Jaffee
That actually sounds pretty good . . .
228 | Donna Ballard Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:46:38am |
re: #207 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I think you're the only one who sees them. No worries.
Thank you FBV. I hope you're right, I would hate to think you guys were stuck with seeing my posts twice as often and think I was screwing up somehow. :-)
229 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:48:48am |
re: #220 Dragon_Lady
Pardon my ignorance but where is that? Near the Mississippi river?
It was created by the New Madrid Quakes when the Mississippi ran backwards.
230 | SasyMomaCat Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:48:57am |
ack, I think my map problem was operator more than program. I forget how long it takes to "theme" Texas . . . .
231 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:49:11am |
re: #228 Dragon_Lady
No worries, anyway. We're all friends. Typos are forgiven, and the occasional butchering of the English language is expected.
232 | lawhawk Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:52:05am |
re: #205 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Actually, that was the last show I saw; I pretty much stopped watching the Grammys because Metallica didn't win for Best Hard Rock/Metal Performance Vocal or Instrumental, which went
to Jethro Tull in 1989.
And yes, I'm still bitter about that.
233 | Donna Ballard Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:53:29am |
re: #226 Mad Al-Jaffee
It tastes like spicey, garlicy cabbage.
I like cabbage, but the fermented part just gets me. I like my Korean friends but have you ever sat next to one for any length of time? I can only take so much garlic smell before my asthma sets off and unfortunately they tend to eat so much of the stuff I can't get near them for long. I accidentally offended a friend of mine once, that is until I explained the smell sensitivity to him. He was cool after that, but for a few minutes there I thought I had lost a friend and his daughter tried very hard to limit the garlic smell after that. Very sweet people.
234 | Mad Al-Jaffee Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:53:42am |
re: #227 SasyMomaCat
That actually sounds pretty good . . .
It is! I But I couldn't imagine it hot. Room temp, but not heated.
235 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:54:06am |
The leader of the rebels, Abdul-Malik al-Houthi, issued a statement on Saturday accepting the government’s terms for a cease-fire. But on Sunday, Yemen’s National Defense Council said it would cease military operations only after the rebels had complied with those terms, which include disarming, releasing captured soldiers and property, removing roadblocks and withdrawing from strategic positions.
Another condition was that the rebels cease all attacks on Saudi Arabia, which lies just across the border from the rebels’ terrain in northwestern Yemen, and vow not to attack it again. Last week Mr. Houthi declared a unilateral cease-fire with Saudi Arabia, but Saudi officials have rejected that offer, insisting that the rebels withdraw from the border.
SNIP
The rebels say they are defending themselves against unjust government policies, but Yemeni officials accuse them of trying to revive the religious system of government that prevailed here before 1962.
SNIP
236 | albusteve Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:54:15am |
re: #232 lawhawk
Actually, that was the last show I saw; I pretty much stopped watching the Grammys because Metallica didn't win for Best Hard Rock/Metal Performance Vocal or Instrumental, which went
to Jethro Tull in 1989.And yes, I'm still bitter about that.
rock and roll is not about TV show awards...pffft...the Grammys are all about the viewer
237 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:54:34am |
re: #232 lawhawk
You didn't see when Metallica won the next year? And Lars did the acceptance speech? He said, "First, we'd like to thank Jethro Tull for not making an album this year, and letting us win."
The sarcasm was just dripping...
239 | Donna Ballard Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:54:49am |
re: #229 MandyManners
It was created by the New Madrid Quakes when the Mississippi ran backwards.
Ah, they didn't go into that kind of detail on the show I watched. Thats very cool though!
240 | RogueOne Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:54:52am |
Amazon and Macmillan finally got their stuff squared away:
[Link: consumerist.com...]
After refusing to sell any Macmillan books or ebooks for three days, Amazon.com today gave in to demands by the publisher that it start charging $15 for Macmillan ebooks, rather than Amazon's customary $9.99. In a statement, Amazon warned that customers might "rebel against such a high price for books that cost far less to distribute than physical books."
241 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:54:59am |
re: #235 MandyManners
there's something...reaping and sowing...it's on the tip of my tongue//
242 | NJDhockeyfan Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:55:59am |
Auctioning Off The Secret Police
February 1, 2010: The government agreed to investigate the purchase of $85 million worth of ADE 651 explosives detectors. Iraqi officials bought thousands of these hand held devices last year, for up to $60,000 each. But the British manufacturer is being prosecuted in Britain for fraud, when it was discovered there that the ADE 651 is a scam. The device contains useless components, and repeated tests showed that it could not detect anything. Apparently a large chunk of the money Iraq paid for the ADE 651 was kicked back to the Iraqi officials who approved the sale. The ADE 651 is very cheap to make, and the manufacturer made a huge profit even after paying the bribes. No one in Iraq tested the ADE 651, they just took the governments word that the device worked, and it is still being used.
243 | Mad Al-Jaffee Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:56:10am |
re: #232 lawhawk
I have NEVER watched the Grammys and I'm a musician. Don't care for any of those awards or awards shows.
244 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:56:10am |
245 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:56:22am |
246 | Silvergirl Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:56:26am |
re: #231 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
No worries, anyway. We're all friends. Typos are forgiven, and the occasional butchering of the English language is expected.
But does not go without notice. Cato, where are you? :-)
247 | Donna Ballard Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:57:01am |
248 | Mad Al-Jaffee Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:57:21am |
re: #233 Dragon_Lady
I like cabbage, but the fermented part just gets me. I like my Korean friends but have you ever sat next to one for any length of time? I can only take so much garlic smell before my asthma sets off and unfortunately they tend to eat so much of the stuff I can't get near them for long. I accidentally offended a friend of mine once, that is until I explained the smell sensitivity to him. He was cool after that, but for a few minutes there I thought I had lost a friend and his daughter tried very hard to limit the garlic smell after that. Very sweet people.
Racist!!!!
//
I've heard that many Asians think we smell like milk since they don't have much dairy in their diets.
249 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:57:28am |
re: #243 Mad Al-Jaffee
I have NEVER watched the Grammys and I'm a musician. Don't care for any of those awards or awards shows.
Me neither, although i don't play well enough to call myself a musician. Still, these shows remind me of European royalty. Highly incestuous...
250 | Donna Ballard Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:58:28am |
re: #248 Mad Al-Jaffee
Racist!!!
//
I've heard that many Asians think we smell like milk since they don't have much dairy in their diets.
Try explaining that to my asthma, would you? I've tried but it doesn't seem to want to listen...:-(
251 | Silvergirl Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:58:37am |
re: #244 MandyManners
First time I saw that movie, the Statue of Liberty shot stunned me out of my seat. That visual sticks with me a zillion years later.
252 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:59:05am |
re: #251 Silvergirl
First time I saw that movie, the Statue of Liberty shot stunned me out of my seat. That visual sticks with me a zillion years later.
Dr. Zaius: I see you've brought the female of your species. I didn't realize that man could be monogamous.
George Taylor: On this planet, it's easy.
253 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:59:16am |
re: #239 Dragon_Lady
Ah, they didn't go into that kind of detail on the show I watched. Thats very cool though!
It's a gorgeous area. It has bald eagles.
254 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 7:59:39am |
re: #241 Aceofwhat?
there's something...reaping and sowing...it's on the tip of my tongue//
Karma's a bitch with big, sharp teeth.
255 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:00:06am |
256 | Mad Al-Jaffee Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:00:57am |
re: #252 Aceofwhat?
Ape: Help, the human's about to escape.
Troy: Get your paws off me, you dirty ape.
Apes: [gasping] He can talk!
Apes: [in unison, rythmed]
He can talk
He can talk
He can talk
He can talk
He can talk
He can talk
Troy: [singing] I can siiiiiing!
[funky beat of "Rock Me Amadeus" starts playing]
Female Nurse Ape: Ooh, help me Dr. Zaius!
Apes: [in unison]
Dr. Zaius, Dr. Zaius
Dr. Zaius, Dr. Zaius
Dr. Zaius, Dr. Zaius
Oh... Dr. Zaius
Ape: Dr. Zaius, Dr. Zaius.
Troy: What's wrong with me?
Zaius: I think you're crazy.
Troy: Want a second opinion.
Zaius: You're also lazy.
Apes: [in unison]
Dr. Zaius, Dr. Zaius
Dr. Zaius, Dr. Zaius
Dr. Zaius, Dr. Zaius
[one ape starts breakdancing]
Oh... Dr. Zaius
Ape: Dr. Zaius, Dr. Zaius.
257 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:02:12am |
258 | Donna Ballard Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:02:20am |
re: #253 MandyManners
It's a gorgeous area. It has bald eagles.
Excellent! I've never seen a Bald Eagle, I hope to see one someday... We do have some Red Tailed Hawks and other birds of prey around here though. The doves and rodentia don't like them very much though...can't imagine why!/
259 | Donna Ballard Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:03:07am |
260 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:03:42am |
re: #251 Silvergirl
First time I saw that movie, the Statue of Liberty shot stunned me out of my seat. That visual sticks with me a zillion years later.
261 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:04:00am |
re: #246 Silvergirl
But does not go without notice. Cato, where are you? :-)
shhh. (I'm setting her up...)
262 | generalsparky Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:04:12am |
re: #131 lawhawk
How long before this truthful AP headline gets replaced?
You can't blame that on Bush. That's his budget. He chose to massively expand the deficit (while claiming he's going to be a deficit hawk starting next year.
Headline now reads:
Obama unveils 2011 budget with $3.83T in spending
Heh.
265 | Donna Ballard Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:05:17am |
re: #262 generalsparky
Headline now reads:
Obama unveils 2011 budget with $3.83T in spending
Heh.
He calls that getting the deficit under control? Humph!
266 | rwdflynavy Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:06:13am |
268 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:06:37am |
re: #243 Mad Al-Jaffee
I have NEVER watched the Grammys and I'm a musician. Don't care for any of those awards or awards shows.
Last night it was opposite the "Pro-Bowl". I'm not big on award shows, but I do watch the Oscars and the Grammys.
Oscars help me re-live, Grammys help me catch up.
269 | NJDhockeyfan Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:06:43am |
Academy chapel to add outdoor circle to worship areas
U.S. AIR FORCE ACADEMY, Colo. -- The Air Force Academy chapel will add a worship area for followers of Earth-centered religions during a dedication ceremony, which is tentatively scheduled to be held at the circle March 10.
The circle, located atop the hill overlooking the Cadet Chapel and Visitor Center, will be the latest addition to a collection of worship areas that includes Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, Muslim and Buddhist sacred spaces.
...Earth-centered spirituality includes traditions such as Wicca, Druidism and several other religious paths that, while relatively new, trace their roots to pre-Christian Europe, Sergeant Longcrier said. Gerald Gardner founded the first Wiccan tradition in England in 1952, with neo-Druidism following in the early 1960s.
Some Earth-centered traditions involve the worship of gods and goddesses, whereas others may involve only one deity or none at all. Reincarnation is a popular concept, as is rebirth and celebrating the cycle of the seasons.
270 | Silvergirl Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:06:59am |
My fun here is already over. Responsibility rears its ugly head once more and raises its big foot to boot me out for the day. Have a fabulous Monday everyone!
271 | albusteve Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:07:37am |
re: #268 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Last night it was opposite the "Pro-Bowl". I'm not big on award shows, but I do watch the Oscars and the Grammys.
Oscars help me re-live, Grammys help me catch up.
do yourself a favor and go buy a subdudes CD
274 | rwdflynavy Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:09:31am |
275 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:11:54am |
re: #262 generalsparky
Headline now reads:
Obama unveils 2011 budget with $3.83T in spending
Heh.
Think someone at AP got a call?
276 | Dark_Falcon Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:13:06am |
re: #275 MandyManners
Think someone at AP got a call?
Yep. They were asking why their leg was not appropriately tingling at the words from the Anointed One.
/
277 | generalsparky Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:13:25am |
re: #265 Dragon_Lady
He calls that getting the deficit under control? Humph!
I don't think President Obama understands that you can't spend your way out of debt.
278 | Donna Ballard Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:13:59am |
Bbiab, gonna heat up my coffee and watch some Star trek Enterprise for a while. See ya!
279 | generalsparky Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:14:09am |
280 | SasyMomaCat Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:14:14am |
re: #277 generalsparky
If we just keep digging, we'll eventually get out of this hole!////
281 | NJDhockeyfan Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:14:59am |
re: #275 MandyManners
Think someone at AP got a call?
The former headline is here.
Obama unveils $3.83T budget with massive deficits
WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama sent Congress a $3.83 trillion budget on Monday that would pour more money into the fight against high unemployment, boost taxes on the wealthy and freeze spending for a wide swath of government programs.
The deficit for this year would surge to a record-breaking $1.56 trillion, topping last year's then unprecedented $1.41 trillion gap. The deficit would remain above $1 trillion in 2011 although the president proposed to institute a three-year budget freeze on a variety of programs outside of the military and homeland security as well as increasing taxes on energy producers and families making more than $250,000.
How are they going to blame George Bush for this? You know they will try.
282 | rwdflynavy Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:15:00am |
Anybody know Saturn had a moon named Prometheus? Me neither!
283 | Dark_Falcon Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:15:05am |
re: #277 generalsparky
I don't think President Obama understands that you can't spend your way out of debt.
He has no grasp of economics and he's never had a real job. His ignorance is no surprise.
284 | rwdflynavy Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:15:41am |
re: #281 NJDhockeyfan
How are they going to blame George Bush for this? You know they will try.
Bush broke the economy. Obama had no choice but to spend Trillions to fix the mess!!
//
285 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:17:33am |
re: #282 rwdflynavy
Anybody know Saturn had a moon named Prometheus? Me neither!
shepherd moons. cool stuff.
286 | albusteve Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:17:47am |
His colleague Sam is less understanding. “I don’t think he done nothing, the situation’s got worse and worse for me,” he complained. “His slogan was change but now he’s saying change is not just up to me. Well, that wasn’t what he said in the elections.”
disallusioned in the heart of Chicago....BOs homies
[Link: www.timesonline.co.uk...]
287 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:18:28am |
My best Black History month story...
I saw a militant Black guy at a convention, (we worked in the same industry) and I knew of him, rather than knew him. He was wearing a Malcolm X sweatsuit. Big Xs all over it and occasionally the word "Malcolm" appeared.
I approached him and asked (as innocently as I could), "Who's Malcolm Ten?" He replied, (sharply and in puzzlement) "Uh, Hugh. That's Malcolm X. He was a great civil rights leader." I said, (not understanding) "Oh. Sorry." and walked away.
A few weeks later, I got a call from him, he had found out that I was funning him. He got the joke. Laughed his ass off.
I had lightened up an angry black guy. One of my prouder, more fun moments.
Black History Month, with FBV.
288 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:18:59am |
re: #280 SasyMomaCat
If we just keep digging, we'll eventually get out of this hole!///
Appropriately, in China.
289 | NJDhockeyfan Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:19:27am |
re: #286 albusteve
His colleague Sam is less understanding. “I don’t think he done nothing, the situation’s got worse and worse for me,” he complained. “His slogan was change but now he’s saying change is not just up to me. Well, that wasn’t what he said in the elections.”
disallusioned in the heart of Chicago...BOs homies
[Link: www.timesonline.co.uk...]
Related...
The curtain has come down on what can best be described as a brief un-American moment in our history. That moment began in the fall of 2008, with the great financial panic, and gave rise to the Barack Obama phenomenon.
The nation's faith in institutions and time-honored ways had cracked. In a little-known senator from Illinois millions of Americans came to see a savior who would deliver the nation out of its troubles. Gone was the empiricism in political life that had marked the American temper in politics. A charismatic leader had risen in a manner akin to the way politics plays out in distressed and Third World societies.
There is nothing surprising about where Mr. Obama finds himself today. He had been made by charisma, and political magic, and has been felled by it. If his rise had been spectacular, so, too, has been his fall. The speed with which some of his devotees have turned on him—and their unwillingness to own up to what their infatuation had wrought—is nothing short of astounding. But this is the bargain Mr. Obama had made with political fortune.
290 | SasyMomaCat Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:20:04am |
re: #286 albusteve
a politician that doesn't live up to his campaign promises. Imagine that!/
It never ceases to amaze me, regardless of candidate affiliation, how much stock some people put in campaign promises. Especially those that are obviously well beyond the scope of a given office. Of course, then again, the basic understanding of civics is in a sad state, so I guess it shouldn't surprise me.
291 | Mad Al-Jaffee Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:20:10am |
re: #287 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Good one! That's like posting on a movie discussion board that you haven't seen Malcom X yet because you want to watch Malcom parts I-IX first.
292 | albusteve Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:20:33am |
re: #277 generalsparky
I don't think President Obama understands that you can't spend your way out of debt.
he does not care about debt...he cares about growing the federal govt and there he has done a great job...other than that he only cares about his own skin, therefore, the new, idiotic blather about rising deficits....the American people on the whole will not fall for his Chicago schtick
293 | Dark_Falcon Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:21:11am |
re: #289 NJDhockeyfan
The problem with Obama's spell be broken is that he's still in office till 2012. It'll be a long two years.
294 | albusteve Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:21:21am |
re: #287 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
My best Black History month story...
I saw a militant Black guy at a convention, (we worked in the same industry) and I knew of him, rather than knew him. He was wearing a Malcolm X sweatsuit. Big Xs all over it and occasionally the word "Malcolm" appeared.
I approached him and asked (as innocently as I could), "Who's Malcolm Ten?" He replied, (sharply and in puzzlement) "Uh, Hugh. That's Malcolm X. He was a great civil rights leader." I said, (not understanding) "Oh. Sorry." and walked away.
A few weeks later, I got a call from him, he had found out that I was funning him. He got the joke. Laughed his ass off.
I had lightened up an angry black guy. One of my prouder, more fun moments.
Black History Month, with FBV.
now tell us a White History Month story
295 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:21:25am |
re: #283 Dark_Falcon
He has no grasp of economics and he's never had a real job. His ignorance is no surprise.
"We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle."
Churchill always makes me smile...
296 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:22:24am |
re: #289 NJDhockeyfan
Honestly, I was kind of hoping that some of the "hopey" shit might work. Was rooting on a Reaganesque great healing/reawakening of an American Spirit.
Really, I was.
297 | albusteve Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:23:00am |
re: #290 SasyMomaCat
a politician that doesn't live up to his campaign promises. Imagine that!/
It never ceases to amaze me, regardless of candidate affiliation, how much stock some people put in campaign promises. Especially those that are obviously well beyond the scope of a given office. Of course, then again, the basic understanding of civics is in a sad state, so I guess it shouldn't surprise me.
yup....explain that to the people that voted for him
298 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:23:22am |
re: #276 Dark_Falcon
Yep. They were asking why their leg was not appropriately tingling at the words from the Anointed One.
/
Or, maybe the editor had a brief moment of honesty and clarity but then got back in line and rewrote it.
299 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:24:02am |
re: #294 albusteve
I wasn't born a poor black child, was born into a lower middle class white family. Went to predominantly black schools growing up.
That's all I've got.
300 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:24:13am |
re: #281 NJDhockeyfan
How are they going to blame George Bush for this? You know they will try.
It's ALL Pres. Bush's fault.
301 | Dark_Falcon Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:24:19am |
re: #292 albusteve
he does not care about debt...he cares about growing the federal govt and there he has done a great job...other than that he only cares about his own skin, therefore, the new, idiotic blather about rising deficits...the American people on the whole will not fall for his Chicago schtick
Chicago is falling for the schick less and less. Tomorrow Todd Stroger will lose the Democratic nomination for Cook County Board President. Public disgust with his tax hike will have done him in.
302 | generalsparky Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:24:47am |
re: #290 SasyMomaCat
a politician that doesn't live up to his campaign promises. Imagine that!/
It never ceases to amaze me, regardless of candidate affiliation, how much stock some people put in campaign promises. Especially those that are obviously well beyond the scope of a given office. Of course, then again, the basic understanding of civics is in a sad state, so I guess it shouldn't surprise me.
Oh, but the most educated/enlightened folks told me that Senator Obama was "different" and he was going to bring hope, change and transparency to Washington when he was elected president. And educated idiot is still an idiot.
303 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:24:56am |
re: #283 Dark_Falcon
He has no grasp of economics and he's never had a real job. His ignorance is no surprise.
But, he was a community organizer and a perfesser!
304 | lawhawk Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:25:39am |
re: #275 MandyManners
Ah, but at least I managed to screen cap the old version before it went down the memory hole.
305 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:25:58am |
re: #301 Dark_Falcon
Chicago is falling for the schick less and less. Tomorrow Todd Stroger will lose the Democratic nomination for Cook County Board President. Public disgust with his tax hike will have done him in.
Really...the dynastic line is ending soon? I was still living in Chicago when he was nominated to replace daddy. Never saw anything like it in American politics before...
306 | NJDhockeyfan Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:26:11am |
re: #296 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Honestly, I was kind of hoping that some of the "hopey" shit might work. Was rooting on a Reaganesque great healing/reawakening of an American Spirit.
Really, I was.
Everyone wants a successful presidency because it lifts up our spirits. Too bad Obama hasn't back up those promises. He has 3 more years to turn things around. I HOPE things will CHANGE by then.
307 | Dark_Falcon Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:26:11am |
308 | vxbush Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:26:13am |
re: #303 MandyManners
But, he was a community organizer and a
perfesser!
Lecturer. Not quite as high and mighty.
309 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:26:18am |
re: #289 NJDhockeyfan
Has that woman figured out yet that no one is gonna' pay her mortgage for her?
311 | Mad Al-Jaffee Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:28:01am |
312 | SasyMomaCat Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:28:03am |
re: #310 vxbush
here, have a cup of coffee - I'll see if there's a chocolate chip muffin around here somewhere. Between the coffee and caf., maybe we can help you get de-zombified.
313 | NJDhockeyfan Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:28:19am |
re: #309 MandyManners
Has that woman figured out yet that no one is gonna' pay her mortgage for her?
Or the one in Florida who wants a new kitchen & car.
314 | lawhawk Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:29:09am |
re: #283 Dark_Falcon
He's supposed to have advisers who can help him figure out what to do. The best advice to the Administration would be simple - follow Clinton's lead and stick to the economy. Job losses keep piling up and everyone sees through the phony rhetoric of "jobs saved or created". Continued use only shows just how far removed he and his advisers are from the reality on the ground.
If he had so much trouble with the Bush Administration's handling of the economy, why did he keep Geithner around (even after Geithner's tax troubles came to light during the nomination). Geithner was deeply involved in TARP and a break with the Bush Administration would have made sense; but the fact was that he kept Geithner on so as to ease the transition on the economic front.
315 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:29:17am |
re: #290 SasyMomaCat
a politician that doesn't live up to his campaign promises. Imagine that!/
It never ceases to amaze me, regardless of candidate affiliation, how much stock some people put in campaign promises. Especially those that are obviously well beyond the scope of a given office. Of course, then again, the basic understanding of civics is in a sad state, so I guess it shouldn't surprise me.
He and the Progs in Congress still have time to tax the living shit out of us through income tax and a whole host of fees and licenses.
316 | vxbush Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:29:28am |
re: #312 SasyMomaCat
here, have a cup of coffee - I'll see if there's a chocolate chip muffin around here somewhere. Between the coffee and caf., maybe we can help you get de-zombified.
Very sweet of you, Cat, but I don't do coffee. Now, if you've got some lovely English Breakfast tea, I'll take that in spades.
I actually need to make muffins but I haven't had enough energy to do it for about 4-5 days. My bananas are almost too far gone to use.
317 | Dark_Falcon Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:29:51am |
re: #305 Aceofwhat?
Really...the dynastic line is ending soon? I was still living in Chicago when he was nominated to replace daddy. Never saw anything like it in American politics before...
By hiking sales taxes, he drove shoppers out of Chicago. Mayor Richard M Daley and his brother John (who is a member of the County Board) wanted the tax hike repealed, and Stroger blocked the repeal. By so doing, he provoked the ire of the Daley Dynasty, which remains far stronger than Stroger.
318 | NJDhockeyfan Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:30:03am |
re: #304 lawhawk
Ah, but at least I managed to screen cap the old version before it went down the memory hole.
It's right here still.
319 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:30:11am |
320 | albusteve Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:30:24am |
one and done...the greatest political laugher of this century....Jimmy Carter x 10
322 | SasyMomaCat Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:30:54am |
You know, what's really telling in all of this is how shortsighted Mr. Obama was in allowing the wild expectations to go without challenge. He had to know that they were out there and that he couldn't possibly live up to them. Of course, I'm talking about the "paying my mortgage" folks here. He didn't think one moment, apparently, about the consequences that would certainly be there when he failed to meet the expectations of so many. He just rode the wave and hoped for the best. The disillusionment is not the change he hoped for.
323 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:31:15am |
re: #304 lawhawk
Ah, but at least I managed to screen cap the old version before it went down the memory hole.
I'd hoped you did.
324 | Mad Al-Jaffee Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:31:26am |
Yesterday I saw a car with two bumper stickers:
"The Emperor Has No Brains" with a picture of Bush and Obama (iconic hope and change logo.)
Who's the Emperor now?
325 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:31:46am |
327 | generalsparky Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:31:55am |
re: #301 Dark_Falcon
Chicago is falling for the schick less and less. Tomorrow Todd Stroger will lose the Democratic nomination for Cook County Board President. Public disgust with his tax hike will have done him in.
I haven't been paying a whole lot of attention to what's going on in my part of the state because I have kept my FL residency instead of switching over to IL, but someone here is campaigning as not gonna be a "lapdog for Pelosi".
328 | vxbush Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:32:19am |
re: #322 SasyMomaCat
You know, what's really telling in all of this is how shortsighted Mr. Obama was in allowing the wild expectations to go without challenge. He had to know that they were out there and that he couldn't possibly live up to them. Of course, I'm talking about the "paying my mortgage" folks here. He didn't think one moment, apparently, about the consequences that would certainly be there when he failed to meet the expectations of so many. He just rode the wave and hoped for the best. The disillusionment is not the change he hoped for.
And yet, at the NAACP meeting some time ago (not sure how long), he did say a lot that sounded like personal responsibility. Where is that link? Gotta go find it.
See, not functioning well. Serious caffeine infusion needed.
330 | Mad Al-Jaffee Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:33:21am |
331 | SasyMomaCat Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:34:14am |
re: #316 vxbush
ah, yes - there's some tea in the cabinet ... tea kettle on the burner now. :)
Re. the bananas, stick them in the freezer. The peel will turn black, but the bananas will be fine. Then, when they thaw, they are soft and mushy - just the right consistency for making muffins or banana bread or any other baking. And, you don't have to worry about them going beyond usefulness.
332 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:34:41am |
re: #322 SasyMomaCat
You know, what's really telling in all of this is how shortsighted Mr. Obama was in allowing the wild expectations to go without challenge. He had to know that they were out there and that he couldn't possibly live up to them. Of course, I'm talking about the "paying my mortgage" folks here. He didn't think one moment, apparently, about the consequences that would certainly be there when he failed to meet the expectations of so many. He just rode the wave and hoped for the best. The disillusionment is not the change he hoped for.
I think he not only knew about those expectations but, he evoked and promoted them.
333 | Dark_Falcon Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:35:27am |
re: #327 generalsparky
I haven't been paying a whole lot of attention to what's going on in my part of the state because I have kept my FL residency instead of switching over to IL, but someone here is campaigning as not gonna be a "lapdog for Pelosi".
I'd ask you to switch if practical before the General Election. We need every vote we can get to take Obama's old Senate seat and the Governorship this fall.
334 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:35:31am |
335 | SasyMomaCat Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:36:23am |
re: #328 vxbush
I must have missed that - but, I'll certainly agree with anything that encourages personal responsibility. Apparently, that message didn't make it to the folks that were expecting rainbows and unicorns.
336 | vxbush Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:36:46am |
re: #328 vxbush
And yet, at the NAACP meeting some time ago (not sure how long), he did say a lot that sounded like personal responsibility. Where is that link? Gotta go find it.
See, not functioning well. Serious caffeine infusion needed.
Here's one link about the speech.....
[Link: www.aolnews.com...]
"We have to say to our children, `Yes, if you're African-American, the odds of growing up amid crime and gangs are higher. Yes, if you live in a poor neighborhood, you will face challenges that someone in a wealthy suburb does not,'" Obama said, returning to his tough-love message familiar from his two-year presidential campaign."But that's not a reason to get bad grades, that's not a reason to cut class, that's not a reason to give up on your education and drop out of school," he said. "No one has written your destiny for you. Your destiny is in your hands and don't you forget that."
Emphasis mine.
337 | vxbush Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:37:08am |
re: #331 SasyMomaCat
ah, yes - there's some tea in the cabinet ... tea kettle on the burner now. :)
Re. the bananas, stick them in the freezer. The peel will turn black, but the bananas will be fine. Then, when they thaw, they are soft and mushy - just the right consistency for making muffins or banana bread or any other baking. And, you don't have to worry about them going beyond usefulness.
Bless you, Cat. Always helpful.
338 | SasyMomaCat Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:37:22am |
re: #332 MandyManners
I agree - I think that was largely the case.
339 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:38:30am |
re: #332 MandyManners
and his supporters multiplied the effect.
340 | SasyMomaCat Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:38:50am |
re: #336 vxbush
Oh, yes - I do recall that. But it was after he had taken office. I'm talking about during the campaign.
341 | NJDhockeyfan Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:39:32am |
Dem. senators spent weekend with bank, energy, tobacco lobbyists
Twelve Democratic Senators spent last weekend in Miami Beach raising money from top lobbyists for oil, drug, and other corporate interests that they often decry, according to a guest list for the event obtained by POLITICO.
The guest list for the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee's "winter retreat" at the Ritz Carlton South Beach Resort doesn't include the price tag for attendance, but the maximum contribution to the committee, typical for such events, is $30,000. There, to participate in "informal conversations" and other meetings Saturday, were senators including DSCC Chairman Robert Menendez; Michigan's Carl Levin and Debbie Stabenow; Bob Casey of Pennsylvania; Claire McCaskill of Missouri; freshmen Kay Hagan of North Carolina and Mark Begich of Alaska; and even left-leaning Bernie Sanders of Vermont.
Across the table was a who's who of 108 senior Washington lobbyists, including the top lobbying officials for many of the industries Democrats regularly attack: Represented were the American Bankers Association, the tobaco company Altria, the oil company Marathon, the Edison Electric Institute, which has battled climate regulation, several drug manufacturers, the defense contractor Lockheed, and most of the large independent lobbying firms: Ogilvy, BGR, Quinn Gillespie, Heather Podesta, and Tony Podesta.
The retreat's guest list is a marked contrast to Menendez's recent rhetoric, which has echoed the White House denunciation of "special interests" and "fat cats."
/SHOCKA!
342 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:39:53am |
I might be wrong but, Planet of the Apes is a pro-science movie but, Beneath the Planet of the Apes seems to be a warning about worshipping science.
343 | lawhawk Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:40:17am |
re: #313 NJDhockeyfan
Or this case in NY, where someone ran the numbers and found something just doesn't add up.
This house originally cost $100,000. In 2005, as the housing market heated up and I needed cash, I refinanced it. An appraiser said it was worth $154,000 -- which I thought was too high but nonetheless accepted. I cashed out the house at that value.Today, with the housing market in bad shape, the house is worth about $120,000. On top of that, it is starting to fall apart. Several thousand dollars worth of repairs here; a thousand dollars there -- it all adds up. At 51, I am in no condition to do the repairs myself, with a bad leg and a touch of arthritis. Why would I invest my money, anyway, on a declining asset I never intend to own?
The main toilet is broken upstairs; the roof is leaking into the kitchen ceiling, the ceiling is falling down. The floor in the back room is coming apart.
The woman in this article bought the house for $100k, refinanced at $154k in 2005 (cashing out in the process), and the house now worth $120k (more than when she bought it, but more than what she has on hand to cover the mortgage).
Whose fault is that - it isn't the banks fault; it isn't the government's fault. It's on the homeowner who took the money and paid for whatever it is that she did with the money. Her current mortgage is $1,450, which means that she's essentially has a 6.5% mortgage rate, $5k in taxes, and $900 in homeowner insurance (roughly $1,450 monthly payment). If her taxes are lower, the interest rate would be higher.
344 | SasyMomaCat Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:40:25am |
re: #339 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
And by not curbing the rise of those expectations, he set himself up for a fall.
345 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:40:38am |
346 | vxbush Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:41:15am |
re: #340 SasyMomaCat
Oh, yes - I do recall that. But it was after he had taken office. I'm talking about during the campaign.
Ah. My mistake. What I found more fascinating was that he wasn't held accountable for rarely voting in the Senate.
347 | Killgore Trout Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:41:30am |
Taxes!
Obama unveils $3.8 trillion budget
The budget calls for $53 billion in tax cuts and $50 billion job-creating measures, including small-business tax cuts, as well as new investments in green technology and infrastructure programs for work on roads and bridges.
The budget proposes new tax breaks and incentives for small businesses that hire new employees or boost wages, which would cost $30 billion. There would also be tax breaks for small businesses that make new investments.
The budget includes a one-year extension of Making Work Pay tax breaks, delivered as a part of last year's stimulus package, which would cost $22 billion. This credit resulted in slightly higher paychecks for 110 million families, according to the White House.
It would make permanent tax cuts passed during the Bush administration for all except high-income households making more than $250,000 a year.
Tea Party!
348 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:43:01am |
re: #343 lawhawk
Or this case in NY, where someone ran the numbers and found something just doesn't add up.
The woman in this article bought the house for $100k, refinanced at $154k in 2005 (cashing out in the process), and the house now worth $120k (more than when she bought it, but more than what she has on hand to cover the mortgage).
Whose fault is that - it isn't the banks fault; it isn't the government's fault. It's on the homeowner who took the money and paid for whatever it is that she did with the money. Her current mortgage is $1,450, which means that she's essentially has a 6.5% mortgage rate, $5k in taxes, and $900 in homeowner insurance (roughly $1,450 monthly payment). If her taxes are lower, the interest rate would be higher.
Note how she also seems to think that the repairs are not her responsibility.
350 | _RememberTonyC Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:43:19am |
some of the best news i heard over the weekend was that we are going to be more serious about building more nuclear power plants. it's a win/win because it helps curb greenhouse gas and also lessens our dependence on our enemies for energy.
351 | SasyMomaCat Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:43:21am |
re: #346 vxbush
Agreed - his voting "present" so much should have been a flag that he was unable or unwilling to make decisions or express opinions in a capacity that requires such.
352 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:43:33am |
re: #346 vxbush
Ah. My mistake. What I found more fascinating was that he wasn't held accountable for rarely voting in the Senate.
PRESENT.
353 | lawhawk Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:43:51am |
re: #320 albusteve
one and done...the greatest political laugher of this century...Jimmy Carter x 10
We're dealing with Carter's missteps 30 years later (and still no national energy policy!). We're dealing with Reagan's failures to deal with the Islamists in Iran as well (besides actually dealing with 'em in Iran-Contra).
The failures pile up, and Obama's just going to add to the pile - in the form of massive debt that is the result of unprecedented spending on domestic policy stuff that would make LBJ and FDR blanch - combined.
354 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:44:52am |
re: #347 Killgore Trout
Taxes!
Obama unveils $3.8 trillion budget
BHO and Biden kept on lowering that $250,000.00 amount during the campaign. IIRC, they lowered it to around $70,000.00.
Tea Party!
356 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:45:16am |
re: #350 _RememberTonyC
some of the best news i heard over the weekend was that we are going to be more serious about building more nuclear power plants. it's a win/win because it helps curb greenhouse gas and also lessens our dependence on our enemies for energy.
I don't believe it will come to pass.
357 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:45:50am |
re: #347 Killgore Trout
Taxes!
Obama unveils $3.8 trillion budget
Tea Party!
BHO and Biden kept on lowering that $250,000.00 amount during the campaign. IIRC, they lowered it to around $70,000.00.
358 | generalsparky Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:47:26am |
re: #348 MandyManners
Note how she also seems to think that the repairs are not her responsibility.
We bought our house last January and it was a foreclosure. Buffer house in a good neighborhood. The couple that lost the house had some very messed up priorities. They bought new carpet and put in a fancy wooden fence around the backyard instead of paying their mortgage or fixing the rotted cedar siding. I just don't get it!
359 | Obdicut Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:47:38am |
Ben Stein decides to lend his sagacity to the James O'Keefe affair;
His argument, such as it is, is a weak tu quoque combined with an interpretation of their actions that is so far on the side of generous as to be out of sight.
360 | Killgore Trout Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:49:10am |
re: #357 MandyManners
Yeah, I think 250,000 is fine.
361 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:49:30am |
re: #343 lawhawk
Honestly, Hawk? I'm in a dilemma about that.
Yeah, the homeowner is at fault. But for someone of limited means to turn down 54,000.00 of apparently free money is also a bit much to ask for. It looked like a good deal to the bank too.
Banks and Consumers were looking at an endless source of money (growing equity) and took full advantage of it as much as the law would allow.
I am holding the lawmakers responsible for this.
Or, am I completely wrong? I'll trust your opinion here...
362 | lawhawk Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:49:55am |
re: #347 Killgore Trout
Out of the $3.8 trillion, they're talking $53 billion in making certain tax cuts permanent.
$53 billion - out of $3.8 trillion. Drop. In. The. Bucket.
The new stimulus package is another $50 billion, which includes some jobs tax breaks.
The devil is in the details; tax credits and exemptions are one thing, making the rate changes permanent are another. He's changed withholding (which has meant headaches for those who have to figure out their tax obligations for tax year 2009 who didn't end up withholding enough). No word on the estate tax changes. In fact, the CNN article you cite is silent on the estate tax, which is estimated to run in the 10s of billions by itself if it were to come back.
That has spillover effect since states have tied their estate tax to the federal (piggybacked). If the feds bring back the estate tax, the states will be reimposing their estate taxes as well (if they haven't decoupled, that is).
363 | SasyMomaCat Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:50:29am |
re: #356 MandyManners
I hope you are wrong but fear you are right.
364 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:50:44am |
re: #342 MandyManners
I might be wrong but, Planet of the Apes is a pro-science movie but, Beneath the Planet of the Apes seems to be a warning about worshipping science.
I just watch them and say, "Heh; that monkey talks..."
365 | abolitionist Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:51:52am |
Fifty years ago today --remembering the Greensboro Four sit-in.
Sit-in vet: 'Never request permission to start a revolution'
There's a video (scroll a bit).
366 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:51:57am |
re: #358 generalsparky
We bought our house last January and it was a foreclosure. Buffer house in a good neighborhood. The couple that lost the house had some very messed up priorities. They bought new carpet and put in a fancy wooden fence around the backyard instead of paying their mortgage or fixing the rotted cedar siding. I just don't get it!
I don't get that, either, unless the previous carpet was utterly destroyed and the HOA required a fence.
367 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:51:58am |
re: #327 generalsparky
I haven't been paying a whole lot of attention to what's going on in my part of the state because I have kept my FL residency instead of switching over to IL, but someone here is campaigning as not gonna be a "lapdog for Pelosi".
Gee, i wonder why someone would ever want to retain their FL residency...the taxes in Illinois are so reasonable///
368 | Killgore Trout Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:52:04am |
re: #362 lawhawk
No word on the estate tax changes. In fact, the CNN article you cite is silent on the estate tax, which is estimated to run in the 10s of billions by itself if it were to come back.
Nice catch. I forgot about the estate tax mess.
369 | Mad Al-Jaffee Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:52:32am |
re: #364 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I hate every ape I see, from chimpanz a to chimpanzee, but you'll never make a monkey out of me....
370 | albusteve Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:53:09am |
re: #353 lawhawk
We're dealing with Carter's missteps 30 years later (and still no national energy policy!). We're dealing with Reagan's failures to deal with the Islamists in Iran as well (besides actually dealing with 'em in Iran-Contra).
The failures pile up, and Obama's just going to add to the pile - in the form of massive debt that is the result of unprecedented spending on domestic policy stuff that would make LBJ and FDR blanch - combined.
maybe I'll move to Haiti for some peace and quiet
371 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:53:10am |
re: #360 Killgore Trout
Yeah, I think 250,000 is fine.
I don't.
Don't forget that both Biden and BHO lowered it repeatedly during the campaign.
372 | vxbush Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:53:28am |
re: #367 Aceofwhat?
Gee, i wonder why someone would ever want to retain their FL residency...the taxes in Illinois are so reasonable///
I don't understand why they would move to Illinois, unless the job offer was too good to pass up. I'd avoid the snow as much as possible.
373 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:53:51am |
re: #361 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Honestly, Hawk? I'm in a dilemma about that.
Yeah, the homeowner is at fault. But for someone of limited means to turn down 54,000.00 of apparently free money is also a bit much to ask for. It looked like a good deal to the bank too.
Banks and Consumers were looking at an endless source of money (growing equity) and took full advantage of it as much as the law would allow.
I am holding the lawmakers responsible for this.
Or, am I completely wrong? I'll trust your opinion here...
Did someone hold gun to her head when she signed those papers?
374 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:54:12am |
How much does the Earned Income Tax Credit cost the taxpayer (or the Chinese, for that matter)?
375 | Vicious Babushka Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:55:18am |
re: #343 lawhawk
Or this case in NY, where someone ran the numbers and found something just doesn't add up.
The woman in this article bought the house for $100k, refinanced at $154k in 2005 (cashing out in the process), and the house now worth $120k (more than when she bought it, but more than what she has on hand to cover the mortgage).
Whose fault is that - it isn't the banks fault; it isn't the government's fault. It's on the homeowner who took the money and paid for whatever it is that she did with the money. Her current mortgage is $1,450, which means that she's essentially has a 6.5% mortgage rate, $5k in taxes, and $900 in homeowner insurance (roughly $1,450 monthly payment). If her taxes are lower, the interest rate would be higher.
In LA, there are a bunch of houses that were worth in the millions during the real estate bubble, but for sale signs are hanging on almost every property. Worse even than in my 'hood.
377 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:55:27am |
re: #362 lawhawk
No word on the estate tax changes. In fact, the CNN article you cite is silent on the estate tax, which is estimated to run in the 10s of billions by itself if it were to come back.
That has spillover effect since states have tied their estate tax to the federal (piggybacked). If the feds bring back the estate tax, the states will be reimposing their estate taxes as well (if they haven't decoupled, that is).
Damn rich folks have no right to pass on their estates without giving up lotsa' money to those who never earned it.
378 | lawhawk Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:55:44am |
re: #361 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
The homeowner apparently knew that the appraisal was high (she thought it was high), but went along with it, because it was "free money" to her. Her choice to take the $53,000 was just that - her choice. She could have accepted a smaller amount to pay out. The bank, operating on the appraised value, issued the new mortgage accordingly. The report suggests no wrongdoing on the bank's part.
So, it isn't the bank's fault. The loan doesn't appear to have been written on bad terms, and the interest rate looks about right.
I don't think its the government's fault here; they didn't force the homeowner to refinance and take out the money; the bank based it on the appraisal at the time; and now everyone is looking to the government to bail them out of a bad business decision (the bank and the borrower). The borrower is now looking to walk away - the money was spent. The bank would get the property and resell at a much lower price, taking a loss.
The only winner here would be the person buying the house at a much more affordable price (about $120k according to the story).
379 | Sol Berdinowitz Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:56:30am |
re: #244 MandyManners
Take your stinking paws of me, you damn, dirty ape.
[Video]
When they pry you out of my cold, dead ape paws!
380 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:56:36am |
382 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:58:02am |
re: #379 ralphieboy
When they pry you out of my cold, dead ape paws!
383 | albusteve Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:58:30am |
this guy just has too much fun....I'd love to have my own island....KING!
[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]
384 | Mad Al-Jaffee Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:58:50am |
All of this talking ape talk reminds me of one of my favorite childhood shows: Lancelot Link, Secret Chimp.
385 | generalsparky Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:58:54am |
re: #366 MandyManners
I don't get that, either, unless the previous carpet was utterly destroyed and the HOA required a fence.
I don't know about the state of the carpet before replacing but the fence was definitely not a must. We have one the few fences in the subdivision. I felt a bit uncomfortable buying a house that was taken from another family but my husband told me I needed to get over that. He is much more practical than I am ;-)
386 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:59:30am |
re: #378 lawhawk
People with limited means have entirely different thought processes. But, you, of course are right.
387 | generalsparky Mon, Feb 1, 2010 8:59:32am |
re: #372 vxbush
I don't understand why they would move to Illinois, unless the job offer was too good to pass up. I'd avoid the snow as much as possible.
Military :-)
388 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:00:52am |
re: #383 albusteve
this guy just has too much fun...I'd love to have my own island...KING!
[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]
Kate Moss looks healthy.
389 | Dark_Falcon Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:01:37am |
re: #380 MandyManners
Well, whose fault was it that she took that money?
To be fair, Mandy, a lot of people have gotten slugged by the fall in real estate prices. My home is now worth less than what I paid for it, and its put me in something of a bind. So, she might have goofed, but she wasn't alone.
390 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:01:40am |
re: #385 generalsparky
I don't know about the state of the carpet before replacing but the fence was definitely not a must. We have one the few fences in the subdivision. I felt a bit uncomfortable buying a house that was taken from another family but my husband told me I needed to get over that. He is much more practical than I am ;-)
I can understand the feeling.
392 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:02:02am |
re: #372 vxbush
I don't understand why they would move to Illinois, unless the job offer was too good to pass up. I'd avoid the snow as much as possible.
chicago in the summer is worth chicago in the winter imho. but rarely have so many public employees been paid so much to do so little.
393 | Sol Berdinowitz Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:02:29am |
re: #390 MandyManners
I can understand the feeling.
One can assume that these people lost a lot of money or a major source of income rather suddenly.
Sound familiar?
394 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:02:44am |
re: #389 Dark_Falcon
To be fair, Mandy, a lot of people have gotten slugged by the fall in real estate prices. My home is now worth less than what I paid for it, and its put me in something of a bind. So, she might have goofed, but she wasn't alone.
She admits she knew the appraisal was high.
395 | albusteve Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:03:11am |
The Roman Army Knife: Or how the ingenuity of the Swiss was beaten by 1,800 years..cool picture
Read more: [Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]
396 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:03:26am |
re: #393 ralphieboy
One can assume that these people lost a lot of money or a major source of income rather suddenly.
Sound familiar?
Or, they wracked up outrageous credit card bills.
397 | generalsparky Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:03:30am |
re: #367 Aceofwhat?
Gee, i wonder why someone would ever want to retain their FL residency...the taxes in Illinois are so reasonable///
Heh. Besides the fact I felt like my vote would be thrown away in IL (although DF may have persuaded me that may not be necessarily true), taxes are #1 reason I am keeping my FL residency. It is bad enough that we have to pay an insane amount in property taxes to IL, but the state of IL wanted $144 for each vehicle registration. FL wanted $31.50. That's a no brainer for me.
398 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:03:54am |
re: #393 ralphieboy
One can assume that these people lost a lot of money or a major source of income rather suddenly.
Sound familiar?
BTW, what's that "sound familiar" bit about?
399 | Mad Al-Jaffee Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:04:35am |
This isn't good:
Singer Etta James hospitalized with a serious infection
And Bobby Blue Bland turned 80 last week.
401 | lawhawk Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:05:04am |
re: #391 Obdicut
In 2001, the floor (estate over the amount) that was taxable was $675,000. It's my understanding that if the tax comes back in 2011, it would hit estates worth $1 million or more - many small businesses would be affected, since businesses are often the prime asset. During the runup in real estate, many found homes to have that kind of valuation as well, and it would have hit the estate tax forcing sales if the floor were kept at the lower levels ($675,000).
402 | vxbush Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:05:35am |
re: #387 generalsparky
Military :-)
Well, then, that explains it. Your personal preference (or common sense) were not involved.
403 | generalsparky Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:06:31am |
re: #393 ralphieboy
One can assume that these people lost a lot of money or a major source of income rather suddenly.
Sound familiar?
Actually they didn't. They made a lot of bad financial choices. The couple that owned my very modest house were both professionals. He is a lawyer with a state job and she is a Realtor. They now live about a half a mile away at her mother's house. (My next door neighbor is friends with them.)
404 | lawhawk Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:06:55am |
re: #389 Dark_Falcon
I bought in 2007 (as the bubble was breaking, so got a relative deal on the house), and I figure that the house has lost about 10% in value - if I didn't do anything to the house; with improvements, I'm probably about where I bought it. I also intend to hold on for more than 7 years, so we'll weather the storm; if someone had to sell, they'd get whacked on the underwater valuations - particularly if the house was bought into the height of the bubble.
405 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:07:15am |
re: #399 Mad Al-Jaffee
"At Last" the most perfectly sexy song ever recorded...
406 | albusteve Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:07:22am |
re: #399 Mad Al-Jaffee
This isn't good:
Singer Etta James hospitalized with a serious infection
And Bobby Blue Bland turned 80 last week.
saw Etta last year....she looked positively awful...he time is short I think
407 | Spare O'Lake Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:07:57am |
MAKE THE RICH PAY!
CORPORATE WELFARE BUMS!
- All time favourite Canadian socialist memes
408 | NJDhockeyfan Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:07:59am |
Athiest group goes postal on Mother Teresa stamp
The atheist group Freedom from Religion Foundation is urging its supporters to boycott a soon to be released U.S. Postal Service stamp, which will feature the late Mother Teresa of Calcutta.
The commemorative stamp depicting the 1979 Nobel Peace Prize winner is scheduled to go on sale Aug. 26, which would have been her 100th birthday.
The U.S. Postal Service said in a press release in December that the stamp honors Mother Teresa’s service to “the sick and destitute of India and the world.” The stamp also honors her “humility and compassion,” the U.S. Postal Service said.
A spokeswoman for Freedom from Religion, Annie Gaylor, told Fox News this week the stamp violates postal rules honoring religious people.
“Mother Teresa is principally known as a religious figure who ran a religious institution,” Gaylor told FoxNews.com. “You can't really separate her being a nun and being a Roman Catholic from everything she did.Postal Service spokesman Roy Betts told Fox he was surprised at the protest, since there have been other stamps honoring others with religious backgrounds like Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and Malcolm X.
409 | Walter L. Newton Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:08:01am |
re: #395 albusteve
The Roman Army Knife: Or how the ingenuity of the Swiss was beaten by 1,800 years..cool picture
Read more: [Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]
Neat picture... but I can't stand the stupid hype... this is nothing new, in the sense that archeologist have know about these sorts of artifacts for a couple of hundred years... what I am saying, this is not a NEW discovery, yet the article states...
"The world's first Swiss Army knife' has been revealed..."
No, these artifact have been hanging around in museums for years.
410 | webevintage Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:08:04am |
re: #391 Obdicut
What is the floor for the estate tax?
3.5 million?
Miz Blanche, my Senator, is always was railing agin' the death tax and how horrible it is for poor Arkansas farmers who just want to pass their legacy on to their kin folk, except Blanche has never been actually able to produce a farm family that was hurt by the estate tax.
She is really more interested in the Walton family's huge wealth being protected...which is why in the end she will be re-elected this year.
411 | Vicious Babushka Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:08:59am |
Good morning Lizardia. Got half an hour before I go to the airport. I'm packing all my food in the laptop bag. Won't get home until 8:30 tonight (that's not including the drive home from the airport)
412 | generalsparky Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:09:20am |
re: #402 vxbush
Well, then, that explains it. Your personal preference (or common sense) were not involved.
Well, we did have some say. IL was our second choice. I am from MO and I wanted to be close to my family so we put in for all the bases close to home. There are many days I wonder what in the hell we were thinking though ;-)
414 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:09:52am |
re: #404 lawhawk
We bought our house in 2002. We purchased a hundred and fifty grand below where we were "qualified" and finally stopped using the real estate agent who was showing us houses a minimum of a hundred grand above where we told him we wanted to be.
Don't really regret it.
415 | lawhawk Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:10:10am |
re: #410 webevintage
For 2009, you're right that the floor is $3.5 million.
For 2010, the tax disappears for one year.
For 2011, the tax reappears, and it would likely be at 55% on estates over $1 million.
416 | vxbush Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:10:19am |
re: #392 Aceofwhat?
chicago in the summer is worth chicago in the winter imho. but rarely have so many public employees been paid so much to do so little.
I like visiting Chicago, but I don't think I'd want to live there.
417 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:10:22am |
re: #410 webevintage
3.5 million?
Miz Blanche, my Senator, is always was railing agin' the death tax and how horrible it is for poor Arkansas farmers who just want to pass their legacy on to their kin folk, except Blanche has never been actually able to produce a farm family that was hurt by the estate tax.
She is really more interested in the Walton family's huge wealth being protected...which is why in the end she will be re-elected this year.
Why, the family didn't pay taxes on their wealth as they were accumulating it?
419 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:10:27am |
re: #399 Mad Al-Jaffee
This isn't good:
Singer Etta James hospitalized with a serious infection
And Bobby Blue Bland turned 80 last week.
420 | NJDhockeyfan Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:11:31am |
421 | Dark_Falcon Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:11:59am |
re: #409 Walter L. Newton
Neat picture... but I can't stand the stupid hype... this is nothing new, in the sense that archeologist have know about these sorts of artifacts for a couple of hundred years... what I am saying, this is not a NEW discovery, yet the article states...
"The world's first Swiss Army knife' has been revealed..."
No, these artifact have been hanging around in museums for years.
Well, it is the Daily Mail. They're not the sharpest knife in the wood block.
422 | albusteve Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:12:29am |
re: #409 Walter L. Newton
Neat picture... but I can't stand the stupid hype... this is nothing new, in the sense that archeologist have know about these sorts of artifacts for a couple of hundred years... what I am saying, this is not a NEW discovery, yet the article states...
"The world's first Swiss Army knife' has been revealed..."
No, these artifact have been hanging around in museums for years.
I love that sort of stuff...maybe someday I'll visit Pompeii
424 | Dark_Falcon Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:12:48am |
re: #392 Aceofwhat?
chicago in the summer is worth chicago in the winter imho. but rarely have so many public employees been paid so much to do so little.
Quite Concur.
425 | rwdflynavy Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:12:54am |
re: #417 Aceofwhat?
Why, the family didn't pay taxes on their wealth as they were accumulating it?
Tax the Rich to feed the Poor, til their ain't no Rich no more...
426 | garhighway Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:13:07am |
re: #380 MandyManners
Well, whose fault was it that she took that money?
Hers, of course. But the more interesting question is "Whose fault was it that the banks did untold thousands of such deals, all of which were built on the implicit or explicit assumption that real estate prices would rise forever?"
As a matter of politics or public policy, this isn't about her little drama. It's about how the banks damn near put us in a Depression, and as of this moment, nothing has changed to prevent them from doing it again.
We need one of two things: a regulatory scheme that keeps that from happening, or one that keeps the size of any given player small enough so that his failure due to such a misadventure is manageable.
427 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:13:09am |
re: #411 Alouette
Good morning Lizardia. Got half an hour before I go to the airport. I'm packing all my food in the laptop bag. Won't get home until 8:30 tonight (that's not including the drive home from the airport)
Vaya con Dios!
428 | rwdflynavy Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:13:16am |
re: #425 rwdflynavy
Tax the Rich to feed the Poor, til their ain't no Rich no more...
PIMF there, not their...
429 | Walter L. Newton Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:13:47am |
re: #418 Stanley Sea
Morning Walter!
Morning. Email just sent your way, have a quicksilver question.
430 | _RememberTonyC Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:13:51am |
re: #356 MandyManners
I don't believe it will come to pass.
bummer ..... i heard a handful were under construction and 30 more were in the "permit" stage
431 | albusteve Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:14:03am |
re: #415 lawhawk
For 2009, you're right that the floor is $3.5 million.
For 2010, the tax disappears for one year.
For 2011, the tax reappears, and it would likely be at 55% on estates over $1 million.
highway fucking robbery...the worst
I hate the feds...they have no right to that money
433 | rwdflynavy Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:14:34am |
re: #429 Walter L. Newton
Morning. Email just sent your way, have a quicksilver question.
Don't mess with it, it will make you mad as a hatter!!
Hi Walter!
434 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:15:04am |
re: #415 lawhawk
For 2009, you're right that the floor is $3.5 million.
For 2010, the tax disappears for one year.
For 2011, the tax reappears, and it would likely be at 55% on estates over $1 million.
55% is just mind-numbing.
"Congress can raise taxes because it can persuade a sizable fraction of the populace that somebody else will pay."
Milton Friedman
435 | NJDhockeyfan Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:15:42am |
Scientists say crack HIV/AIDS puzzle for drugs
LONDON, Jan 31 (Reuters) - Scientists say they have solved a crucial puzzle about the AIDS virus after 20 years of research and that their findings could lead to better treatments for HIV.
British and U.S. researchers said they had grown a crystal that enabled them to see the structure of an enzyme called integrase, which is found in retroviruses like HIV and is a target for some of the newest HIV medicines.
"Despite initially painstakingly slow progress and very many failed attempts, we did not give up and our effort was finally rewarded," said Peter Cherepanov of Imperial College London, who conducted the research with scientists from Harvard University.
The Imperial and Harvard scientists said that having the integrase structure means researchers can begin fully to understand how integrase inhibitor drugs work, how they might be improved, and how to stop HIV developing resistance to them.
436 | lawhawk Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:17:08am |
re: #426 garhighway
A regulatory scheme that does what exactly - that prevents prices of real estate to rise according to market pressure?
That's exactly what's implied by your statements.
Prices rise and fall - and the risk of loss on any business decision is to be borne by the parties to the decision - the banks and the individuals.
Since the banks have more exposure - they're lending to more people while the borrower only has to worry about their particular instance, it behooves the banks to be more conservative in lending practices.
That's where the government gets involved - because they want to expand lending to meet social policy agendas - increased homeownership, minority homeownership, etc.
And by dumbing down the lending standards, we got people incapable of repaying borrowing vast sums that could never conceivably be repaid even in flush times - and the moment the real estate market corrected, threw vast portions of bank portfolios into the crapper. In fact, banks that were more conservative in their lending managed to survive the crisis alright (and bought up those that didn't).
437 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:18:16am |
re: #435 NJDhockeyfan
Did the reporter sample said crack before writing the headline? Seriously, what editor reads that headline and then doesn't transfer the writer to janitorial duties?
438 | Killgore Trout Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:18:53am |
Palin goes Paulian.....
Sarah Palin Endorses Rand Paul In Kentucky Senate Race
Kentucky Senate candidate Rand Paul, a conservative activist and son of Rep. Ron Paul (R-TX), has just put out a press release officially announcing the endorsement of Sarah Palin. Paul also announced that his campaign has received a "generous contribution" from Palin's PAC."Governor Palin is providing tremendous leadership as the Tea Party movement and constitutional conservatives strive to take our country back," Paul said in the press release. "Sarah Palin is a giant in American politics. I am proud to receive her support."
439 | Walter L. Newton Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:19:38am |
re: #426 garhighway
[snip]
We need one of two things: a regulatory scheme that keeps that from happening, or one that keeps the size of any given player small enough so that his failure due to such a misadventure is manageable.
How about...
We need one of two things: a regulatory scheme that tells you what you should be making for the amount of work you do, or one that keeps you from advancing in your employment opportunities so if you fail, you are not a burden on the system and your misadventures are manageable.
Does that work for you now?
440 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:19:50am |
re: #426 garhighway
Hers, of course. But the more interesting question is "Whose fault was it that the banks did untold thousands of such deals, all of which were built on the implicit or explicit assumption that real estate prices would rise forever?"
As a matter of politics or public policy, this isn't about her little drama. It's about how the banks damn near put us in a Depression, and as of this moment, nothing has changed to prevent them from doing it again.
We need one of two things: a regulatory scheme that keeps that from happening, or one that keeps the size of any given player small enough so that his failure due to such a misadventure is manageable.
Oh. I thought most of these deals were built on the explicit assumption that the borrower could afford the payment. How naive of me...
441 | lawhawk Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:21:15am |
re: #434 Aceofwhat?
That's nothing.
That's for an estate tax where the income thresholds are in the millions of dollars.
As recently as the 1980s, the top tax bracket for income tax was 70% of income over $215,000. (Historical rates here). And during the 1950s-1960s, it got up to 91%. And anyone making any money back then would get hit at the rate of 20%.
442 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:21:22am |
re: #436 lawhawk
exactly. there aren't a lot of loans going where Fannie and Freddie haven't already created a path. silly banks, thinking that they could trust Fannie Mae.
443 | NJDhockeyfan Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:21:54am |
Firefly Mission to Study Terrestrial Gamma-ray Flashes
High-energy bursts of gamma rays typically occur far out in space, perhaps near black holes or other high-energy cosmic phenomena. So imagine scientists' surprise in the mid-1990s when they found these powerful gamma ray flashes happening right here on Earth, in the skies overhead.
They're called Terrestrial Gamma-ray Flashes, or TGFs, and very little is known about them. They seem to have a connection with lightning, but TGFs themselves are something entirely different.
"In fact," says Doug Rowland of NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center, "before the 1990s nobody knew they even existed. And yet they're the most potent natural particle accelerators on Earth."
444 | Sol Berdinowitz Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:22:05am |
re: #398 MandyManners
BTW, what's that "sound familiar" bit about?
Because it seemed to happen to a lot of people rather suddenly
445 | Dark_Falcon Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:22:37am |
re: #438 Killgore Trout
Palin goes Paulian...
Sarah Palin Endorses Rand Paul In Kentucky Senate Race
Luap Dnar!
446 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:22:53am |
re: #430 _RememberTonyC
bummer ... i heard a handful were under construction and 30 more were in the "permit" stage
How many permits will be granted? How long is the process?
447 | Ericus58 Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:23:56am |
re: #399 Mad Al-Jaffee
This isn't good:
Singer Etta James hospitalized with a serious infection
And Bobby Blue Bland turned 80 last week.
Her singing "At Last" was the first dance song for my wife and I for our wedding... very sad.
448 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:24:11am |
re: #441 lawhawk
That's nothing.
That's for an estate tax where the income thresholds are in the millions of dollars.
As recently as the 1980s, the top tax bracket for income tax was 70% of income over $215,000. (Historical rates here). And during the 1950s-1960s, it got up to 91%. And anyone making any money back then would get hit at the rate of 20%.
Boggles the mind. Let's identify the most productive individuals in our country, the ones best able to invest in and create jobs for their fellow citizens, and let's go "deliverance" on their silly asses.
It really is the rape of the few through the vote of the many.
449 | Dark_Falcon Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:25:29am |
re: #446 MandyManners
How many permits will be granted? How long is the process?
The process can take a decade. Eviro-crazies take every opportunity to object and delay the process. I seriously think there should be a way to ban certain people and organizations from objecting, since they do not do so in good faith.
450 | Stanghazi Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:25:37am |
re: #440 Aceofwhat?
Oh. I thought most of these deals were built on the explicit assumption that the borrower could afford the payment. How naive of me...
I've shared this more than once here, I know quite a few folks in the real estate, mortgage and appraisal biz. These people were huge during the bubble, selling homes to everyone and anyone, making it up as they went along. I still wait for an investigation into the mortgage broker business, they did everything possible to get that commission. And got quite wealthy doing it. One of my friends quit because he was sick of seeing people getting new docs in front of their faces at the last minute that they didn't understand etc.
There are many aspects to the problem, but this is one I had hoped would be looked into more.
451 | Killgore Trout Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:26:23am |
News Busters picks up Crazy Pam's scoop.....
Obama Using Public Schools To Recruit Agenda Advancing Interns
452 | albusteve Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:26:36am |
re: #446 MandyManners
How many permits will be granted? How long is the process?
each permit will be blocked with lawsuits, favorable to activist judges
453 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:28:09am |
re: #450 Stanley Sea
I've shared this more than once here, I know quite a few folks in the real estate, mortgage and appraisal biz. These people were huge during the bubble, selling homes to everyone and anyone, making it up as they went along. I still wait for an investigation into the mortgage broker business, they did everything possible to get that commission. And got quite wealthy doing it. One of my friends quit because he was sick of seeing people getting new docs in front of their faces at the last minute that they didn't understand etc.
There are many aspects to the problem, but this is one I had hoped would be looked into more.
I was a mortgage broker a long time ago...late nineties. For every shady broker, there are 10 shady customers. If somebody wants a loan, they'll falsify whatever documents they need to get it.
454 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:28:22am |
re: #449 Dark_Falcon
The process can take a decade. Eviro-crazies take every opportunity to object and delay the process. I seriously think there should be a way to ban certain people and organizations from objecting, since they do not do so in good faith.
There's a little thing called the First Amendment.
455 | Mad Al-Jaffee Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:28:51am |
re: #447 Ericus58
Her singing "At Last" was the first dance song for my wife and I for our wedding... very sad.
It's probably been the first dance song at millions of weddings.
456 | albusteve Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:29:06am |
re: #448 Aceofwhat?
Boggles the mind. Let's identify the most productive individuals in our country, the ones best able to invest in and create jobs for their fellow citizens, and let's go "deliverance" on their silly asses.
It really is the rape of the few through the vote of the many.
it's flat out criminal...another example of the feds insatiable lust for your money...they are legal thieves
457 | Stanghazi Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:29:50am |
re: #453 Aceofwhat?
I was a mortgage broker a long time ago...late nineties. For every shady broker, there are 10 shady customers. If somebody wants a loan, they'll falsify whatever documents they need to get it.
And that's where the RE agent came in. I take no blame away from the buyers, but they had help from those who would benefit.
458 | subsailor68 Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:29:51am |
Morning all! This is just my - admittedly amateur - take on the market. By the market, I don't mean the stock market, but rather the classic "market" - the billions of individual transactions made by millions of people every day.
It seems to me to be very like a river. It is what it is, and will continue to be what it will be. Regulations, legislation, taxation, income redistribution...the political decisions made by politicians for their own reasons...these are like levees. The levee will attempt to hold back - or reroute the river - but even the best ones have unintended consequences.
While the levee looks good around one city, it may be - over time - devastating to other cities downstream - and if not properly constructed, to the very city it was designed to protect.
Political attempts to direct or impact the market may look good in the short term, but be devastating in the longer term. But, politicians aren't psychologically constructed to think beyond the next election.
The Community Reinvestment Act of 1977 -- given teeth during the Clinton administration, and used as a weapon to force banks to lend during the Clinton and Bush administrations - looked like a fine piece of legislation.
Until the levee broke.
459 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:30:31am |
re: #450 Stanley Sea
I've shared this more than once here, I know quite a few folks in the real estate, mortgage and appraisal biz. These people were huge during the bubble, selling homes to everyone and anyone, making it up as they went along. I still wait for an investigation into the mortgage broker business, they did everything possible to get that commission. And got quite wealthy doing it. One of my friends quit because he was sick of seeing people getting new docs in front of their faces at the last minute that they didn't understand etc.
There are many aspects to the problem, but this is one I had hoped would be looked into more.
Did any mortgage broker hold a gun to their heads, forcing them to sign? Did any mortgage broker hold a gun to their heads, forcing them to not retain an attorney to review and interpret the documents?
460 | albusteve Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:30:44am |
re: #451 Killgore Trout
News Busters picks up Crazy Pam's scoop...
Obama Using Public Schools To Recruit Agenda Advancing Interns
is the story untrue?
461 | vxbush Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:30:49am |
re: #457 Stanley Sea
And that's where the RE agent came in. I take no blame away from the buyers, but they had help from those who would benefit.
I made more real estate agents and mortgage folks mad by saying I was going to take a fixed APR loan and I wasn't going to go over a certain amount. They couldn't believe me. I had to leave a few in the dust to make my wishes clear.
462 | Dark_Falcon Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:31:04am |
re: #454 MandyManners
There's a little thing called the First Amendment.
They should be able to speak, but they should have any legal challenges they file dismissed as being filed in bad faith. I favor simply stamping such a challenge "leftist abuse of procedure" and then throwing them in the trash.
463 | Ericus58 Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:31:29am |
re: #455 Mad Al-Jaffee
It's probably been the first dance song at millions of weddings.
My wife allowed me the honor of choosing our song, and I came to Etta. For us being married later in life together was fittingly highlighted by her words and message.
It truly is "At Last" for us ;)
464 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:32:02am |
re: #462 Dark_Falcon
They should be able to speak, but they should have any legal challenges they file dismissed as being filed in bad faith. I favor simply stamping such a challenge "leftist abuse of procedure" and then throwing them in the trash.
That's for a court to decide.
465 | Dark_Falcon Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:32:30am |
re: #458 subsailor68
Morning all! This is just my - admittedly amateur - take on the market. By the market, I don't mean the stock market, but rather the classic "market" - the billions of individual transactions made by millions of people every day.
It seems to me to be very like a river. It is what it is, and will continue to be what it will be. Regulations, legislation, taxation, income redistribution...the political decisions made by politicians for their own reasons...these are like levees. The levee will attempt to hold back - or reroute the river - but even the best ones have unintended consequences.
While the levee looks good around one city, it may be - over time - devastating to other cities downstream - and if not properly constructed, to the very city it was designed to protect.
Political attempts to direct or impact the market may look good in the short term, but be devastating in the longer term. But, politicians aren't psychologically constructed to think beyond the next election.
The Community Reinvestment Act of 1977 -- given teeth during the Clinton administration, and used as a weapon to force banks to lend during the Clinton and Bush administrations - looked like a fine piece of legislation.
Until the levee broke.
Very good Mississippi River / New Orleans analogy.
466 | Killgore Trout Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:32:54am |
467 | _RememberTonyC Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:33:15am |
re: #446 MandyManners
How many permits will be granted? How long is the process?
i don't know ... but i was hoping this would work out ...
468 | Ericus58 Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:33:43am |
469 | Dark_Falcon Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:33:50am |
re: #464 MandyManners
That's for a court to decide.
That takes too long. The permitting process needs to be greatly speeded up, and that means some objections need to be steamrolled.
470 | albusteve Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:34:01am |
re: #462 Dark_Falcon
They should be able to speak, but they should have any legal challenges they file dismissed as being filed in bad faith. I favor simply stamping such a challenge "leftist abuse of procedure" and then throwing them in the trash.
that would require BO to fire judges and install new ones favorable to nuclear expantion...imagine the shrieking that would result...
472 | vxbush Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:35:28am |
re: #471 MandyManners
He's on the roof again. bbl
Have him take down the Christmas decorations while he's there.
/
473 | Dark_Falcon Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:35:31am |
re: #468 Ericus58
Chinese warn Boeing over Taiwan
[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]
What to do, what to do...
That threat might work. Boeing might well refuse the missile order to preserve its Chinese sales.
474 | Obdicut Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:35:56am |
re: #401 lawhawk
Are you sure about that? I think the current rate is two million, and what you're remembering is from 2001.
Did this just change or something?
475 | Mad Al-Jaffee Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:36:13am |
476 | albusteve Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:36:58am |
re: #466 Killgore Trout
Probably.
then the document is fake?...seems like that alone would be a big story...sounds legit to me otherwise
477 | Killgore Trout Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:37:12am |
Friends of Spencer and Crazy Pam riot and attack police.....
English Defence League Riot in Stoke
Saturday 23 January 2010: The English Defence League (EDL) reappeared on the streets of England for the first time this year, this time in Stoke-on-Trent in the Midlands.
Within minutes of the 500-strong protest tried to breach police lines and the scene quickly deteriorated into heavy violence. 17 people have so far been arrested.
The EDL have continually claimed to be non-racist and non-violent. Again this video shows a very different reality.
479 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:38:10am |
480 | albusteve Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:39:38am |
re: #479 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
And that was when the fight started...
-Howard Cosell
heh...I remember that...I loved those guys, perfect blather for a football game
481 | Mad Al-Jaffee Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:40:51am |
re: #480 albusteve
heh...I remember that...I loved those guys, perfect blather for a football game
I love the scene in Sleeper where Woody Allen is shown a tape of Cossell and says that's what they forced criminals to watch.
482 | Killgore Trout Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:41:08am |
re: #476 albusteve
The syllabus on the application is for a program that ended in November (possibly from last year) but the guy says it was handed out to his child last week. It's for an old program. The application is probably real but where it came from is unknown. We've seen that a lot of people are just making stuff up to stoke outrage, Crazy Pam is one of the worst offenders. I woouldn't trust her as a source for anything.
483 | Dark_Falcon Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:42:15am |
re: #482 Killgore Trout
The syllabus on the application is for a program that ended in November (possibly from last year) but the guy says it was handed out to his child last week. It's for an old program. The application is probably real but where it came from is unknown. We've seen that a lot of people are just making stuff up to stoke outrage, Crazy Pam is one of the worst offenders. I woouldn't trust her as a source for anything.
I concur with your assessment.
484 | Feline Fearless Leader Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:43:02am |
re: #462 Dark_Falcon
Ah, procedural obstructionists. World has too many of them, doesn't it?
485 | Obdicut Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:44:11am |
re: #478 lawhawk
Oh, okay. You are acknowledging that their currently is no estate tax. I'm not sure why you cited only 2001 as a previous rate in your other post-- that's what confused me.
What do you think a reasonable level for the estate tax is? Especially given that, in the case of small businesses, it's very easy to transfer ownership over time so as to avoid the estate tax?
486 | Dark_Falcon Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:44:27am |
re: #484 oaktree
Ah, procedural obstructionists. World has too many of them, doesn't it?
Only when they get in the way of something I want. When they stop something I oppose, I tend to like them. I know that's hypocritical, but there it is.
487 | Feline Fearless Leader Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:46:05am |
re: #486 Dark_Falcon
Refreshing to see the honesty of that position openly stated. In most other places it is either totally tap-danced around, or some of the standard logical fallacies are rolled out in order to justify it.
488 | MrSilverDragon Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:46:11am |
re: #486 Dark_Falcon
Only when they get in the way of something I want. When they stop something I oppose, I tend to like them. I know that's hypocritical, but there it is.
I wouldn't call it hypocritical, I'd call it living in reality.
489 | albusteve Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:46:18am |
re: #482 Killgore Trout
The syllabus on the application is for a program that ended in November (possibly from last year) but the guy says it was handed out to his child last week. It's for an old program. The application is probably real but where it came from is unknown. We've seen that a lot of people are just making stuff up to stoke outrage, Crazy Pam is one of the worst offenders. I woouldn't trust her as a source for anything.
what about the original doc posted...the internship overview?...that's the gist of the thing...is that a real document published by Organizing for America?
490 | Ericus58 Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:46:37am |
re: #473 Dark_Falcon
That threat might work. Boeing might well refuse the missile order to preserve its Chinese sales.
Perhaps, but I don't think they would. I would be shocked actually if the company refused to sell the hardware to Taiwan.
Airbus already has A320's being built in China... Boeing has jointed ventures as well in Commercial aviation. The Chinese want the tech transfers for their own use, to enable commercial aviation being homebuilt and for possible export in the future - they have a better shot at this than the Russians over the long term.
When the Chinese feel they have nothing left to gain in commercial aviation - or in any field that the west has an advantage - that's when the hammer falls.
In the meantime, the ChiComs are unhappy.
491 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:46:42am |
re: #469 Dark_Falcon
That takes too long. The permitting process needs to be greatly speeded up, and that means some objections need to be steamrolled.
Due process must be followed.
492 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:46:57am |
re: #485 Obdicut
Oh, okay. You are acknowledging that their currently is no estate tax. I'm not sure why you cited only 2001 as a previous rate in your other post-- that's what confused me.
What do you think a reasonable level for the estate tax is? Especially given that, in the case of small businesses, it's very easy to transfer ownership over time so as to avoid the estate tax?
0%
493 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:47:22am |
re: #472 vxbush
Have him take down the Christmas decorations while he's there.
/
I was tempted to use my nail gun to afix him to it.
494 | jeremy0114 Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:47:55am |
Seems to me at this point there is just going to be a lot of living trusts created by the wealthy... which actually have some great advantages for the people you leave behind.
For the not-so-wealthy (like me) you can have a trust be formed at the time of your death, then specify it all out in your will...
Anyone know the implications of creating a living trust and the estate tax?
495 | lawhawk Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:48:46am |
re: #485 Obdicut
Because the estate tax disappears for 2010 and comes back in 2011 - using the rates as in effect prior to the enactment of the EGTRRA and JTTRA tax bills (the Bush tax cuts). That means that the rates would be those as in effect prior to the enactment of the estate tax cuts - the 2001 rate - subject to what Congress decides to do.
And to your point that you can take steps to avoid the estate tax - there are lifetime caps on what you can transfer tax free. Over the cap, and you're hit with the tax. States have different takes on GSTTs (generation skipping transfer taxes), estate taxes, and gift taxes, to collect revenues from various transfers.
I generally see the estate/gift taxes as additional taxes on income that has already been taxed previously. I understand various governmental demands for money to balance their books, but it appears as little more than double dipping on the taxes.
496 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:48:46am |
re: #475 Mad Al-Jaffee
Little monkey!
Stood up at six months and was using the little poles under the banister to climb the outside of staircase at seven months. ADHD to the max.
497 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:49:05am |
re: #494 jeremy0114
Seems to me at this point there is just going to be a lot of living trusts created by the wealthy... which actually have some great advantages for the people you leave behind.
For the not-so-wealthy (like me) you can have a trust be formed at the time of your death, then specify it all out in your will...
Anyone know the implications of creating a living trust and the estate tax?
Just to make sure i understand...you're saying "leave the tax, since we can all get around it anyway"?
498 | albusteve Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:49:28am |
re: #485 Obdicut
Oh, okay. You are acknowledging that their currently is no estate tax. I'm not sure why you cited only 2001 as a previous rate in your other post-- that's what confused me.
What do you think a reasonable level for the estate tax is? Especially given that, in the case of small businesses, it's very easy to transfer ownership over time so as to avoid the estate tax?
zero...why should the feds levy an estate tax in the first place?
499 | Walter L. Newton Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:50:39am |
re: #476 albusteve
then the document is fake?...seems like that alone would be a big story...sounds legit to me otherwise
This document may be a fake, but the "program" is not... here is a detailed insight to the massive grass roots projects that Organizing for America is venturing forward with...
[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]
"I thought about Patrick's story from high school when I met Jacob Manser, a 16 year-old who is serving as the canvass coordinator for his neighborhood team in the heart of Columbus. The team's FO, Steph Lake, took me by the beginning of an afternoon phone bank that the team was coordinating. All the team members were playing their different roles: The team's volunteer coordinator, a semi-retired software developer named Robert Hughes had prepared the call lists in conjunction with the team's phone bank coordinator, Leslie Krivo-Kaufman, another high school student. Team leader Janeen Sands oversaw the whole event. And another volunteer, who was not even a team coordinator (yet) had donated her house for the event. Jacob helped out that day by collecting the data from the event. The team was still looking for a data coordinator and other members were sharing that role. Later that night, Steph and I stopped by his house to get the tallies (though volunteers organized by the team would do the actual data entry). They made the exchange in the street in front of Jacob's house, talking softly so as not to disturb any neighbors. It was about 10:00 PM—on a school night!"
There is a lot of activity going on.
500 | Killgore Trout Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:51:24am |
re: #489 albusteve
is that a real document published by Organizing for America?
Yeah, that seems to be genuine.
501 | Feline Fearless Leader Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:51:25am |
re: #494 jeremy0114
Not a lawyer, but my parents did that. Set up an irrevocable trust while they were still alive. When my father died, half the estate was split off into a separate trust, it paid the necessary estate taxes at that time, and from then on the only money in that trust that was taxable was the additional income it generated via its investment. When my mother died the other half was handled likewise and both trusts paid out to the designated inheritors.
502 | abolitionist Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:52:45am |
re: #468 Ericus58
Chinese warn Boeing over Taiwan
[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]
What to do, what to do...
re: #473 Dark_Falcon
That threat might work. Boeing might well refuse the missile order to preserve its Chinese sales.
It's not just Boeing.
China to punish companies involved in US-Taiwan arms sales - Summary
China takes tough stance on U.S. arms sales to Taiwan
Boeing, Lockheed, Raytheon could face sanctions
And United Technologies
503 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:52:49am |
504 | jeremy0114 Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:53:00am |
re: #497 Aceofwhat?
Actually if I had a greater point it would be to say that there isn't a tax an accountant can not get around. And people did not become millionaires without a lot of pre-planning... Exceptions as always...
I think that it all becomes a dog/pony show (yeah were gonna get the rich) to make the less wealthy think the bums in DC that they actually give a crap...
505 | Dark_Falcon Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:53:06am |
re: #477 Killgore Trout
Nasty stuff. I still can't figure out why those assholes rioted.
506 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:53:57am |
507 | recusancy Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:54:25am |
For all the nuclear power fetishists, here's some porn for you.
509 | albusteve Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:54:35am |
re: #499 Walter L. Newton
I'm hardly outraged...but it's just more meddling and intrusion by the feds, the beast feeding itself, one meal at a time comrade
510 | Obdicut Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:54:40am |
re: #495 lawhawk
I generally see the estate/gift taxes as additional taxes on income that has already been taxed previously
I'm sorry, but that always makes me giggle. Income gets additionally taxed all the time-- I have to pay income tax on income and then pay sales tax when using that income. I'm not sure why people treat some situations of 'double taxation' as bad and wrong and others as completely fine. Money is taxed when it changes hands, typically; that's what happens when an estate passes on. Those receiving the estate are not receiving the fruits of their own labors, but a gift.
And to your point that you can take steps to avoid the estate tax - there are lifetime caps on what you can transfer tax free. Over the cap, and you're hit with the tax. States have different takes on GSTTs (generation skipping transfer taxes), estate taxes, and gift taxes, to collect revenues from various transfers.
Well, no, not entirely true. There are mechanisms of transfer that do not have any actual caps on them, like transfers into trusts. They all have their limitations, but that's because in order to avoid estate tax, you have to give up a measure of control.
By the way, I'm going to be-- or rather, my parents will be-- subject to the estate tax due to a house that we own, so this is more than academic for me and my family.
So is your answer that you think there should be zero estate tax?
511 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:55:30am |
512 | albusteve Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:56:08am |
513 | Obdicut Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:56:18am |
re: #498 albusteve
Because money is transferring hands from one entity to another in the form of a gift.
Or, to put it another way: Why should money you earn with the sweat of your brow and the performance of your skills be taxed, but not money being inherited?
514 | Dark_Falcon Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:56:32am |
re: #502 abolitionist
It's not just Boeing.
China to punish companies involved in US-Taiwan arms sales - SummaryChina takes tough stance on U.S. arms sales to Taiwan
Boeing, Lockheed, Raytheon could face sanctions
And United Technologies
The Chinese plan seems to be to put pressure on US corporations and thereby get them to spike the arms sales. If it works then Taiwan joins China sooner rather than later. In the long run, Taiwan is toast anyway with a birth rate of only 1.26 children per woman (below the 1.3 'lowest-low').
515 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:56:45am |
re: #510 Obdicut
So is your answer that you think there should be zero estate tax?
That's my answer.
516 | Mad Al-Jaffee Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:57:10am |
Time for this lizard to eat lunch. Laterz.
517 | Dark_Falcon Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:57:35am |
re: #513 Obdicut
Because money is transferring hands from one entity to another in the form of a gift.
Or, to put it another way: Why should money you earn with the sweat of your brow and the performance of your skills be taxed, but not money being inherited?
Because it has already been taxed. The government shouldn't get two bites at the same apple.
518 | Obdicut Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:57:51am |
re: #515 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Okay. Can you explain why it is appropriate to tax earned income but not tax unearned income, in that case?
519 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:58:21am |
re: #517 Dark_Falcon
Because it has already been taxed. The government shouldn't get two bites at the same apple.
How about this? All of your money goes to the state when you die?
520 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:58:55am |
re: #518 Obdicut
Because the people who earned it, already paid tax on it and ain't earning it no more.
521 | Dark_Falcon Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:59:15am |
re: #519 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
How about this? All of your money goes to the state when you die?
There are many Obama supporters who would favor that.
522 | Obdicut Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:59:35am |
re: #517 Dark_Falcon
As I said above: double taxation-- triple quadruple-- occurs all the time. Taxation occurs when money transfers hands. Why is the estate tax somehow specially wrong in this regard, when 'two bites' happens all the time-- as in any time you spend money on anything with sales tax, just as the easiest example?
523 | jeremy0114 Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:59:39am |
re: #510 Obdicut
I know a lot of people who like the idea of an estate tax just because they believe it makes taxpayers out of the Paris Hilton types who did nothing in life and enjoyed being a millionaire while doing it. But im sure her balance sheet is nothing to be impressed about, and she is receiving trust payments anyways...
I think it is a farce, she is just living on Hilton welfare, so to speak. She wont have the grand estate her Grandfather left. No taxes to pay here.
re: #518 Obdicut
Unearned income? Like growth on your 401k? Your house appreciating? Just curious what you define as....
524 | Killgore Trout Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:59:50am |
re: #505 Dark_Falcon
Nasty stuff. I still can't figure out why those assholes rioted.
They are just racist soccer hooligans and skinheads. They really don't need a reason.
525 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 9:59:58am |
re: #513 Obdicut
Because money is transferring hands from one entity to another in the form of a gift.
Or, to put it another way: Why should money you earn with the sweat of your brow and the performance of your skills be taxed, but not money being inherited?
Oh, good gravy.
526 | lawhawk Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:00:55am |
re: #510 Obdicut
You can giggle, but I was confining the discussion to the estate tax. I know that income is double/triple/quadruple taxed all the time. It's one of the reasons that a VAT has some merit, since the multiple levels of taxation are eliminated. One of the reasons that we have so many levels of taxation is that the government has figured out that they can do so - not whether it's the right thing to do or even the most efficient way to collect/gather/report tax.
As for your particular instance, what is the house valued at and subtract $1. /just kidding.
Actually, setting the level at $3 or $5 million and adjusted annually for inflation might work, with a tax rate of 10-15% might make sense. It provides some revenue, but allows those who made that money pass it on to their heirs and assigns. It could greatly benefit charitable foundations and other charitable works (though I could see the counter argument that such giving would be hurt by same).
527 | Sol Berdinowitz Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:01:33am |
re: #525 MandyManners
Oh, good gravy.
it is like saying you should not pay income tax becasue you work for your parents...
528 | rwdflynavy Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:01:57am |
re: #522 Obdicut
As I said above: double taxation-- triple quadruple-- occurs all the time. Taxation occurs when money transfers hands. Why is the estate tax somehow specially wrong in this regard, when 'two bites' happens all the time-- as in any time you spend money on anything with sales tax, just as the easiest example?
Hey sorry about your Dad dying and all. Here is half of the money he left you.
529 | albusteve Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:03:34am |
re: #513 Obdicut
Because money is transferring hands from one entity to another in the form of a gift.
Or, to put it another way: Why should money you earn with the sweat of your brow and the performance of your skills be taxed, but not money being inherited?
to me it is not a matter of precedent or numbers or percentages...it's simply a matter of principle...it's not the govts money and if you don't draw the line somewhere we'll all end up resembling CA with tea parties howling, and anarchist screaming...the feds can go too far...they work for the people, not the other way around and that's where we see things differently
530 | jeremy0114 Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:03:36am |
re: #527 ralphieboy
Heh, you can use the life insurance slogan to sell that one....
"The estate tax.... its for the living...."
531 | Ericus58 Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:05:39am |
Enough of the freakin' bowing....
[Link: news.yahoo.com...]
She's an American mayor of an American city.... the last I checked with my Asian friends and co-workers, there was no bowing to each other. A well-meant handshake while looking them sincerely in the eyes is what we do...
does he even know who he is anymore?
532 | jeremy0114 Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:05:55am |
re: #527 ralphieboy
I dont think I would berate anyone who has got an inheritance from a deceased parent by saying they were 'working' for them.
533 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:06:03am |
re: #519 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
How about this? All of your money goes to the state when you die?
If--upon our deaths--the state has the right to take what we earn with our bodies while we're alive, what's to stop it from taking our bodies when we're dead? Is property not an extension of our bodies? Do we not earn it by the toil we exert? Are we not allowed to control the fruits of our labors?
534 | albusteve Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:06:21am |
re: #522 Obdicut
As I said above: double taxation-- triple quadruple-- occurs all the time. Taxation occurs when money transfers hands. Why is the estate tax somehow specially wrong in this regard, when 'two bites' happens all the time-- as in any time you spend money on anything with sales tax, just as the easiest example?
I think you are missing the point...intentionally of course...people will expect some reasonable tax to operate govts at all levels...it's a matter of degrees...you can ask all the convoluted questions you want but the answer is always the same
535 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:07:15am |
I've told this story before, I think I'll probably tell it again.
There is an organization located up near Mt. St. Helens. It teaches, through a dramatic presentation, about NW Native Americans. The man who started it and was the artist who made all the artifacts they used was named Don Smith, but had the right to use the name Chief Lelooska.
He died suddenly. His family, who had always been part of the program, really didn't have money to pay taxes* on the value of the business and the masks/drums/longhouse that Lelooska used.
Estate taxes were going to shut things down. They would have to sell off the items to pay the taxes. Thousands of schoolkids who had previously enjoyed this experience would now have to get their learning out of a book.
A foundation was formed to slowly buy the masks and capes and so on from their heirs to keep things running. Without the hard work and generosity of people who care about living history, this wonderful program would have been shut down.
Nobody forms foundations for Mama and Papa's two taco stands that they built from nothing.
My personal opinion is that working capital should have a ceiling more like 30 million.
536 | Obdicut Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:07:31am |
re: #520 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I'm sorry, but how is that an answer? If I spend forty hours busting my gut to make $40,000, I am taxed on that-- and taxed again if I spend it. If someone inherits $40,000, having done nothing to earn them that money, they are not taxed.
I'm not sure what the rationale is that money needs to be taxed once. Money isn't taxed-- wealth isn't taxed. Income is taxed-- the delta of money is taxed.
537 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:07:41am |
re: #510 Obdicut
I'm sorry, but that always makes me giggle. Income gets additionally taxed all the time-- I have to pay income tax on income and then pay sales tax when using that income. I'm not sure why people treat some situations of 'double taxation' as bad and wrong and others as completely fine. Money is taxed when it changes hands, typically; that's what happens when an estate passes on. Those receiving the estate are not receiving the fruits of their own labors, but a gift.
that makes me giggle. Once i've paid my income taxes, i can generally choose how to avoid further taxes. i can minimize purchases, for example.
comparing a ~6% tax that can be minimized and is dependent on behavior with a 55% tax on something that should be between you and your family is no kind of comparison at all.
538 | Olsonist Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:07:45am |
re: #528 rwdflynavy
Hey sorry about your Dad dying and all. Here is half of the money he left you.
Score! Since the exclusion amount in 2009 was $3.5 million your Dad must have left you a lot of money.
539 | jeremy0114 Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:08:18am |
re: #534 albusteve
And I have said this a ton of times, TAXES are not the problem... ALL THE DAMN WASTE IN GOVERNMENT is the problem...
The pols wouldnt be looking for ways to tax dead people if there wasnt so much waste, making them need the money so bad....
Oh wait... yes they would...
540 | Dark_Falcon Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:08:18am |
re: #531 Ericus58
Enough of the freakin' bowing...
[Link: news.yahoo.com...]
She's an American mayor of an American city... the last I checked with my Asian friends and co-workers, there was no bowing to each other. A well-meant handshake while looking them sincerely in the eyes is what we do...
does he even know who he is anymore?
It's simply meant to show respect to other cultures. I don't think he means more than that.
541 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:09:12am |
re: #538 Olsonist
Score! Since the exclusion amount in 2009 was $3.5 million your Dad must have left you a lot of money.
542 | Obdicut Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:09:35am |
re: #526 lawhawk
That sets the rate considerably below what someone would pay if they actually earned that money. Can you explain what the rationale is for taxing that income below the level of income tax?
544 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:09:57am |
re: #536 Obdicut
We have different philosophies. We will probably never agree.
I believe that the government takes way too much and wastes way too much.
You appear to believe that government does not take enough and should find ways to spend more.
That's okay. Just different outlooks.
545 | Obdicut Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:10:07am |
re: #538 Olsonist
I've joked with my parents that if they felt like faking their own deaths, this year would be a great one to do it.
546 | Nervous Norvous Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:10:07am |
The question is do we want a landed aristocracy (albeit economic)? Paris Hilton being a perfect example of this.
548 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:10:16am |
re: #535 EmmmieG
I forgot my asterisk.
They live up by their longhouse, and it is abundantly clear they are not wealthy.
550 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:11:10am |
re: #540 Dark_Falcon
It's simply meant to show respect to other cultures. I don't think he means more than that.
Yeah, i agree. To me, bowing is like speaking softly and respectfully. We still have the biggest stick.
551 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:11:19am |
re: #546 PT Barnum
The question is do we want a landed aristocracy (albeit economic)? Paris Hilton being a perfect example of this.
Why do people insist on throwing her up when speaking of the rich? SHE'S NOT RICH through inheritance.
552 | Obdicut Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:11:39am |
re: #544 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
We have different philosophies. We will probably never agree.
I believe that the government takes way too much and wastes way too much.
You appear to believe that government does not take enough and should find ways to spend more.
That's okay. Just different outlooks.
No, that is a caricature of my view that ignores that I am focusing on the question of why one type of income is treated more favorably than another.
I do not feel that the government 'does not take enough', nor do I think that they should 'find ways to spend more'. Especially on the subject of spending, which I haven't even talked about it in this conversation-- can you explain how you came to the conclusion I want to government to spend more?
553 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:12:00am |
re: #547 Olsonist
And your point is?
In my No. 533:
If--upon our deaths--the state has the right to take what we earn with our bodies while we're alive, what's to stop it from taking our bodies when we're dead? Is property not an extension of our bodies? Do we not earn it by the toil we exert? Are we not allowed to control the fruits of our labors?
554 | NJDhockeyfan Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:12:30am |
Watch state spend wildly at new website
The state's budget mess is a ticking time bomb and now Illinois residents can watch as it explodes.
A Web site launched by the Civic Committee of the Commercial Club of Chicago displays a ticker that counts up Illinois' debt. On Friday evening, the number was around $128,586,300,000 and swiftly on the rise.
The site, [Link: www.IllinoisIsBroke.com,...] is coupled with a media campaign that asks voters "Which candidates will be the best ones to fix the mess?"
The civic committee isn't in the business of political endorsements, so don't ask them who those candidates are. However, President Eden Martin said he hopes voters take a better look at the individuals running for office.
555 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:13:17am |
re: #552 Obdicut
I can't. Was just being a smart-ass.
Fortunately, my children will never be concerned. I promise my estate will not be above the lower limits.
556 | jeremy0114 Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:13:38am |
re: #551 MandyManners
I think the BIGGEST problem people have with Paris Hilton, is they are not Paris Hilton....
557 | Dark_Falcon Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:13:54am |
re: #551 MandyManners
Why do people insist on throwing her up when speaking of the rich? SHE'S NOT RICH through inheritance.
Correct. She's actually made more money through endorsements, Paris Hilton-themed products and appearance fees than she ever would have inherited.
I've got to get to work. BBT
558 | Olsonist Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:14:04am |
re: #553 MandyManners
So your argument is against all taxation whatsover, not specifically against the estate tax.
559 | Obdicut Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:14:23am |
re: #553 MandyManners
The state has firm laws about what you can do with bodies after death. A friend of mine is Zoroastrian and could tell you long tales about it. Zoroastrians believe that bodies need to be laid open to the sky and plucked clean by the birds after death. The US government disagrees.
In addition, the government reserves the right to rummage through your body if it is evidence in a crime. Or to quarantine it and possibly incinerate it if you were carrying particular diseases.
Personally I worry more about what the government wants to do with my body when I'm alive.
560 | albusteve Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:14:29am |
re: #552 Obdicut
No, that is a caricature of my view that ignores that I am focusing on the question of why one type of income is treated more favorably than another.I do not feel that the government 'does not take enough', nor do I think that they should 'find ways to spend more'. Especially on the subject of spending, which I haven't even talked about it in this conversation-- can you explain how you came to the conclusion I want to government to spend more?
because the govt says they are different, and treats each accordingly...pretty simple
561 | lawhawk Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:14:33am |
re: #542 Obdicut
What's the rationale for having a tax substantially higher than the top tax rate? /two can play that game
The impetus for a lower tax rate is to facilitate easier transfers, minimize disruptions on transfers and avoid having to sell assets (like businesses, real estate) to meet estate tax obligations.
562 | Nervous Norvous Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:14:45am |
re: #551 MandyManners
Okay..let me rephrase that..
Those with material wealth are significantly more likely to be able to pass resources on to their children, which then allows them to be significantly able to pass resources to their children and so on and so forth, because each generation starts with a few hundred thousand head start. This will tend to stratify class population, in that those in the upper class tend to stay there not out of any talent or hard work of their own but because they are born there.
I'm not sure that's a good thing.
563 | Dark_Falcon Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:15:28am |
564 | soap_man Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:15:31am |
Hey! The company I work for just reported that 2009 was far better than expected.
But no raises. Eh, that's okay right? We all need to tighten our belts because things are still a bit rough. But wait, the top hundred or so executives are receiving raises and bonuses.
A rising tide lifts all ships, eh?
565 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:16:08am |
re: #559 Obdicut
I'd like to have my (ample) body taken to the wilderness and fed to wild animals. No fuss, no muss, full bellies... win/win.
566 | jeremy0114 Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:16:13am |
re: #562 PT Barnum
So the estate tax is the epitome of "keeping it fair?"
567 | Ericus58 Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:16:26am |
re: #540 Dark_Falcon
It's simply meant to show respect to other cultures. I don't think he means more than that.
You know, I'd almost buy that... prior to running for office, did Obama greet individuals of other ethnic groups with a bow? Because if not, it comes across as being fake and silly.
568 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:16:42am |
re: #542 Obdicut
That sets the rate considerably below what someone would pay if they actually earned that money. Can you explain what the rationale is for taxing that income below the level of income tax?
Forgive me for butting in, it's an interesting topic.
For me, it has to do with privacy. All of the other taxes that you cited (income, sales tax, etc) are relatively transactional in nature. But the freedom to give your already-taxed money to your relatives, as you see fit, feels far more private.
Think of it this way. Let's say my folks die and want to pass along 5 million to me (not exactly a realistic scenario, sigh). No new net income, business venture, or real wealth creation occurred outside of the little bubble of our family. Our family had 5 million, and we still have 5 million.
I didn't "make" 5 million. I took over an account. It's private, therefore different than the taxes i'd rightfully pay if i chose to buy a yacht. I can always choose not to buy a yacht, and therefore save myself the taxes. But my parents can't choose not to die.
Big difference, there at the end...
569 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:16:46am |
re: #564 soap_man
Work hard! Get thyself up into that upper management!
570 | albusteve Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:17:07am |
re: #562 PT Barnum
Okay..let me rephrase that..
Those with material wealth are significantly more likely to be able to pass resources on to their children, which then allows them to be significantly able to pass resources to their children and so on and so forth, because each generation starts with a few hundred thousand head start. This will tend to stratify class population, in that those in the upper class tend to stay there not out of any talent or hard work of their own but because they are born there.
I'm not sure that's a good thing.
then it's time for the lower and middle classes to get smart and start making their own money...the resources are there
571 | webevintage Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:17:10am |
re: #562 PT Barnum
in that those in the upper class tend to stay there not out of any talent or hard work of their own but because they are born there.
Like winning the lottery of birth.
and we tax lottery winnings, don't we.
572 | Nervous Norvous Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:17:12am |
re: #566 jeremy0114
Not so much as I think there are reasons not to have an aristocracy. They don't tend to do well in revolutions when push comes to shove. The French Revolution comes to mind.
573 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:17:40am |
re: #558 Olsonist
So your argument is against all taxation whatsover, not specifically against the estate tax.
Piss-poor job of trying to put words into my mouth.
574 | Nervous Norvous Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:17:49am |
re: #571 webevintage
Like winning the lottery of birth.
and we tax lottery winnings, don't we.
BINGO!
575 | Walter L. Newton Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:17:50am |
re: #546 PT Barnum
The question is do we want a landed aristocracy (albeit economic)? Paris Hilton being a perfect example of this.
Because people make money, they give money, they inherit money, who cares. Jealous?
I hate people that whine about other people having money. Go out there and make a fucking fortune yourself, then see how willing you would be to scatter it to the four winds.
To bad, so sad... big deal, you're not stinky wealthy and you just can't stand it.
No one is stopping you from having all the money you want. And if you don't feel a need to be rich, then leave the ones who are alone.
576 | soap_man Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:18:22am |
re: #569 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Work hard! Get thyself up into that upper management!
I plan on it; in fact I already work very hard and have for the years I've been here. But if they deserve a raise, so do I.
577 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:18:36am |
re: #559 Obdicut
The state has firm laws about what you can do with bodies after death. A friend of mine is Zoroastrian and could tell you long tales about it. Zoroastrians believe that bodies need to be laid open to the sky and plucked clean by the birds after death.
Oh, that has to make it difficult for you sometimes, given your propensity for snark!
578 | lawhawk Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:18:43am |
re: #561 lawhawk
Oh, and 10-15 percent does correspond with the tax imposed on long term capital gains (which is 15%).
579 | MandyManners Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:19:03am |
My poor keyboard cannot take any more abuse lest I break it.
Gonna' go pay some sales tax. Bye.
580 | Obdicut Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:19:28am |
re: #561 lawhawk
What's the rationale for having a tax substantially higher than the top tax rate? /two can play that game
Well, my rationale would be that it's unearned income, and that the floor for it is high enough that a very small percentage of US citizens will be affected by it. Including myself, of course.
The impetus for a lower tax rate is to facilitate easier transfers, minimize disruptions on transfers and avoid having to sell assets (like businesses, real estate) to meet estate tax obligations.
Why is avoiding assets having to be sold a good thing? And could you be clearer on how a low or non-existent estate tax makes for easier transfers and minimized disruptions?
581 | Nervous Norvous Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:19:33am |
re: #575 Walter L. Newton
I frankly don't care..I've got my own problems. But I do think it's not good for the country to have a bunch of people who continue to own and control lots of resources for no other reason than accident of birth.
582 | Sol Berdinowitz Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:19:51am |
A CLOSE RELATIVE RECENTLY IN LAGOS, NIGERIA, DIED AND LEFT BEHIND MILLIONS THAT WILL GO TO WASTE THROUGH THE ESTATE TAX UNLESS YOU LET US DEPOSIT IT ALL IN YOUR ACCOUNT....
583 | subsailor68 Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:20:17am |
re: #572 PT Barnum
Not so much as I think there are reasons not to have an aristocracy. They don't tend to do well in revolutions when push comes to shove. The French Revolution comes to mind.
Well, it didn't work out all that well for Robespierre, Marat, and the gang either. The class warfare thing - demonizing the rich - not such a good idea it seems.
;-)
584 | Olsonist Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:21:03am |
re: #573 MandyManners
Not really. You should pay more attention to what you say.
Are we not allowed to control the fruits of our labors?
That seems to me an argument against all taxation, not an argument against the estate tax.
585 | rwdflynavy Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:21:09am |
re: #538 Olsonist
Score! Since the exclusion amount in 2009 was $3.5 million your Dad must have left you a lot of money.
My Dad is fine. Thanks for asking!
586 | DaddyG Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:21:26am |
re: #531 Ericus58
Enough of the freakin' bowing...
[Link: news.yahoo.com...]
She's an American mayor of an American city... the last I checked with my Asian friends and co-workers, there was no bowing to each other. A well-meant handshake while looking them sincerely in the eyes is what we do...
does he even know who he is anymore?
She was born in Maine to an Italian immigrant father so he can't claim it was deference to her family culture. Someone tell me- is bowing big in Tampa?
He may want to rethink his mannerism - or at least be conscious of when he admires other dignitaries shoes lest he be accused of kowtowing.
587 | albusteve Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:21:26am |
re: #580 Obdicut
Why is avoiding assets having to be sold a good thing? And could you be clearer on how a low or non-existent estate tax makes for easier transfers and minimized disruptions?
your rationale is redistribution of somebody else's money via the federal govt...spice it up all you want, but that's the bottom line
588 | reine.de.tout Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:21:29am |
re: #460 albusteve
is the story untrue?
The story says:
A rather disturbing document surfaced on the Internet Saturday with grave implications concerning how the Obama administration is recruiting interns from public schools to assist in advancing the President's agenda along with his desire to get Democrats including himself elected.
From that link, this is what Pammie says:
An Atlas reader, Chuck, has a student in the eleventh grade in an Ohio High School. Her government class passed out this propaganda recruiting paper so students could sign up as interns for Obama's Organizing for America.
Who in the government class passed this out? The teacher? Another student? A guest speaker? Who? What was the purpose of passing this out? Did the teacher instruct them to sign up as interns? Was signing up as an intern a class requirement? There's a lot here that is NOT being said.
Poor decision on the part of a teacher at that school to hand this out or allow it to be handed out?
Perhaps so.
Evidence that the Obama administration is recruiting students, which is what Pam's hysteria is all about?
Nothing there.
589 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:21:39am |
re: #562 PT Barnum
Okay..let me rephrase that..
Those with material wealth are significantly more likely to be able to pass resources on to their children, which then allows them to be significantly able to pass resources to their children and so on and so forth, because each generation starts with a few hundred thousand head start. This will tend to stratify class population, in that those in the upper class tend to stay there not out of any talent or hard work of their own but because they are born there.
I'm not sure that's a good thing.
Eh. A fool and his money are soon parted. How is an "unworthy" heir any different than a foolish lotto winner? It's amazing how many lotto winners end up poor before they die. Idiotic heirs are society's carrion, IMHO...lots of nutrition from those fat bodies will go back into the societal ecology to feed a lot of other creatures...
590 | jeremy0114 Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:21:41am |
re: #572 PT Barnum
I believe there still was a definite caste to that society.
And lest not forget, people tend to not respect and piss away inherited wealth. I see it every day around here. There has been rich people having kids through the history of this country, and we still dont have more than 2 networks on TV showing reality shows 24/7...
I also think in wiping out generational wealth, you would kill a lot of philanthropy in the process...
591 | Walter L. Newton Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:22:01am |
re: #581 PT Barnum
I frankly don't care..I've got my own problems. But I do think it's not good for the country to have a bunch of people who continue to own and control lots of resources for no other reason than accident of birth.
You do care, or you wouldn't keep mentioning it. You go fix your own problems then and stop whining about people who have money. There is nothing stopping you from being as filthy rich as you want to be.
592 | simoom Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:22:19am |
re: #289 NJDhockeyfan
Related...
The Obama Spell Is Broken
Wow, nice WSJ op-ed.
So President Obama's election was "un-american" (a result of the electorate's un-american sentiment) and that election resembled those of "third world countries" involving "the politics of the Arab world and Latin America"? I wonder if Mr. Ajami was trying to be offensive (especially when describing an election that marked a surge in democratic participation).
I also like how he states the electorate abandoned empiricism, as if it wasn't possible to rationally prefer Obama/Biden over McCain/Palin.
593 | jeremy0114 Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:22:29am |
re: #574 PT Barnum
So now inheriting your parents' fortune is winning the lottery? WOW
594 | albusteve Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:22:45am |
re: #584 Olsonist
Not really. You should pay more attention to what you say.
Are we not allowed to control the fruits of our labors?
That seems to me an argument against all taxation, not an argument against the estate tax.
quite a stretch imo
595 | Nervous Norvous Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:23:18am |
re: #591 Walter L. Newton
I won't try to analyze you if you don't try to analyze me, Walter.
596 | reine.de.tout Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:24:02am |
re: #584 Olsonist
Not really. You should pay more attention to what you say.
Are we not allowed to control the fruits of our labors?
That seems to me an argument against all taxation, not an argument against the estate tax.
Oh, come on.
That statement was the last one in this post clearly mentioning what happens upon death.
If--upon our deaths--the state has the right to take what we earn with our bodies while we're alive, what's to stop it from taking our bodies when we're dead? Is property not an extension of our bodies? Do we not earn it by the toil we exert? Are we not allowed to control the fruits of our labors?
597 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:24:22am |
re: #571 webevintage
Like winning the lottery of birth.
and we tax lottery winnings, don't we.
bleh. intruding into my family affairs and taxing money that i won from the state are the same thing? that's like comparing apples and sand.
598 | Obdicut Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:24:23am |
re: #568 Aceofwhat?
Your parents can choose to die without a large estate, however, unless they're very unlucky. As I said, there's lots of mechanisms to transfer wealth. But aside from that, your argument is based on one of a feeling that this transaction is more private than others. I am sensitive to the cultural and psychological importance of inheritance-- especially since if I don't finesse things right, I'll have to sell the family home when my parents die to pay the tax on it-- but the reading of wills and the enforcement of fair distribution of property is a very grave and definite responsibility of the government. Huge amounts of court time and cost is spent overseeing the distribution of estates.
re: #577 Aceofwhat?
Why would it make it difficult? He's also Iranian. Nice dude.
599 | soap_man Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:24:48am |
re: #593 jeremy0114
So now inheriting your parents' fortune is winning the lottery? WOW
My friend, who has wealthy parents, says he is a part of the LSC. The "Lucky Sperm Club."
600 | Walter L. Newton Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:24:52am |
re: #595 PT Barnum
I won't try to analyze you if you don't try to analyze me, Walter.
Sorry... I can state my opinion if I want... deflection stinks.
601 | Gus Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:24:57am |
Estate Taxes:
Your family estate leaves you a nice comfortable home. Uncle Sam says it's a deal but first you have to give us the master bedroom and master bath before we can proceed.
/
602 | albusteve Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:24:57am |
re: #595 PT Barnum
I won't try to analyze you if you don't try to analyze me, Walter.
based exactly on what you typed, no more
603 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:26:13am |
re: #595 PT Barnum
I won't try to analyze you if you don't try to analyze me, Walter.
If you put your hand on the scanner, Walter, and email it to me, I'll tell your fortune.
/jk. The closest I've come to reading palms is seeing what the boys had for lunch...and breakfast...
604 | webevintage Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:26:56am |
re: #593 jeremy0114
So now inheriting your parents' fortune is winning the lottery? WOW
It is all about luck and fate and who your parents just happen to be.
No one chooses their parents or we would ALL choose to have wealthy parents who would leave us tons o' cash that we never did anything for except to get born into that family.
We can talk all we want about how hard people work and bootstaps and all that crap, but in the end wealth is just as much a chance of fate and good luck as it is about how hard someone works.
605 | lawhawk Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:27:33am |
re: #580 Obdicut
10-15% is not a nonexistent rate as you imply. It would simply be not as high as the rates previously imposed.
As to how this plays out:
Say someone has an estate worth $3 million. $2.7 million is a business operation. $300,000 is liquid assets.
If the estate tax was imposed on estates over $1 million at 45%, where exactly is exactly is the $900,000 to be paid (the 45% on the amounts over $1 million floor - 45% of $2 million)? You've got the liquid assets covering $300k, but the other $600k has to come from somewhere - and that somewhere would be the home or business.
606 | Obdicut Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:27:42am |
re: #601 Gus 802
Income tax:
Your employer gives you enough money to buy a nice full dinner with an apple pie finisher. The government says, "Mmm, pie!" and loads up its fork.
/
607 | jeremy0114 Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:27:50am |
re: #599 soap_man
Well to each their own I suppose, I guess I remember my mother hand making our clothes cause we couldnt afford to go to Sears...
Inheriting her estate is nothing I will consider myself lucky to do, although it will make me a good deal wealthier...
608 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:28:48am |
re: #598 Obdicut
Making sure that an estate is properly distributed is one thing (although an unnecessary thing if the estate is prepared correctly). Using that as justification to take HALF of my family's wealth because we're changing names on the bank account is as big of a stretch as i've ever seen you make.
And when the state has to manage the redistribution of an individual's holdings, they take their chunk to cover operational costs...and then some. That's not the subject under discussion.
609 | jeremy0114 Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:28:56am |
re: #604 webevintage
What if my parents piss it all away before they die? Because i was an ass who thought I was gonna 'win the lottery' with their passing?
I think luck is a bad choice of words in this case
610 | Nervous Norvous Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:29:52am |
re: #602 albusteve
My question was about whether or not having a small group of people controlling the majority of the resources generation after generation was a good thing in general. The extent to which Walter tries to make it personal isn't my problem, and I won't make it my problem.
611 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:30:20am |
re: #599 soap_man
My friend, who has wealthy parents, says he is a part of the LSC. The "Lucky Sperm Club."
And resenting him enough to try to grab half of what his family leaves him is just horrible. He'll either use it wisely (and therefore the money will be invested in the economy and nonprofit orgs) or unwisely (and therefore the money will be returned to the economy anyway!)
612 | jeremy0114 Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:30:29am |
613 | DaddyG Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:31:17am |
As I have illustrated for my kids...
Life - has brussel sprouts and traffic
Fair - has cotton candy and ferris wheels
Life is not fair.
614 | Spare O'Lake Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:31:23am |
The deck is stacked,
It ain't no sin,
The cards are marked,
So I can win.
The dice are loaded,
But don't you complain,
The wheel is weighted,
So I'll screw you again.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
615 | Obdicut Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:31:41am |
re: #605 lawhawk
Sorry, let me rephrase the question. My thinking was that given that you are asserting that disruptions are limited by lower estate taxes, they'd be even more limited by a non-existent tax.
So in the particular case where the assets inherited are a business or a house, rather than, say, shares of stock or other liquid assets, a low inheritance tax will prevent disruptions-- though the sale of companies is not generally perceived as a 'disruption' in the business world, and of course the inheritors have every right to immediately sell the business, thus causing that 'disruption'.
Now, do you feel that rationale holds when the assets are in liquid form as well, and if so, why? Or is there a different rationale for limited the estate tax on liquid assets?
616 | webevintage Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:32:07am |
re: #609 jeremy0114
What if my parents piss it all away before they die? Because i was an ass who thought I was gonna 'win the lottery' with their passing?
I think luck is a bad choice of words in this case
Then you'd be unlucky and stupid...
617 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:32:11am |
I dislike the inheritance tax not because I'm going to inherit any money, (I won't) but because the trusts create generations of worthless human beings.
The entailment laws of England created a class level that considered it beneath them to earn thehir money. Do we really want to reapeat that?
Let them blow it all in the first generation. We can't tax it away, because anyone smart enough to get that rich is smart enough to a. make friends with congressfolk and b. hire good accountants.
618 | Nervous Norvous Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:32:14am |
re: #612 jeremy0114
Keep in mind I like exploring issues without investing myself too much in whether or not I agree with the answers...it's more about the discussion.
621 | soap_man Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:33:17am |
re: #607 jeremy0114
Inheriting her estate is nothing I will consider myself lucky to do, although it will make me a good deal wealthier...
I oppose the estate tax, but anyone who is inheriting that much money should consider themselves to be somewhat lucky. Nobody chooses their parents. He didn't choose to be born into a family of corporate executives, it was luck. I didn't choose to be born into a family where I was raised by a secretary and a tow truck driver, it was luck.
But it's important to not that while I had a lower-middle class upbringing, I still consider myself very lucky. First of all to have a loving family, but also to be born here in America. Lower-middle class here is very well-off by global standards. For God's sake, I could have been born in the fucking Congo.
622 | Spare O'Lake Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:33:24am |
re: #595 PT Barnum
I won't try to analyze you if you don't try to analyze me, Walter.
Can analysis be worthwhile?
Is the theater really dead?
623 | DaddyG Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:33:46am |
re: #617 EmmmieG
The entailment laws of England created a class level that considered it beneath them to earn thehir money. Do we really want to reapeat that?
Before I respond:
Which level do I get to be in? /
624 | soap_man Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:34:04am |
re: #611 Aceofwhat?
And resenting him enough to try to grab half of what his family leaves him is just horrible. He'll either use it wisely (and therefore the money will be invested in the economy and nonprofit orgs) or unwisely (and therefore the money will be returned to the economy anyway!)
Who said I resented him? I know I didn't.
625 | webevintage Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:34:06am |
re: #611 Aceofwhat?
And resenting him enough to try to grab half of what his family leaves him is just horrible.
But why is saying it is free money and he should pay taxes it on it "resenting him"?
626 | jeremy0114 Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:34:16am |
BTW this lurker turning poster is going to have to do some work, or the IRS will be knocking at my door before im on my death bed... Have a good day all!
627 | Olsonist Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:34:24am |
re: #596 reine.de.tout
Hers was a slippery slope argument.
If Joe gives Sally $1M, then Sally has $1M of income
whether or not Joe is Sally's father.
If Joe bequeaths Sally $1M, it seems reasonable that Sally
still has $1M of income.
My dog in this fight is fairness. Income is income whether it comes from a rich daddy or a blue collar job.
628 | Nervous Norvous Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:34:55am |
re: #622 Spare O'Lake
Can analysis be worthwhile?
Is the theater really dead?
This is a dangling conversation, isn't it?
629 | Obdicut Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:35:03am |
re: #608 Aceofwhat?
If I changed the name on my bank account from my own to that of my very good friend, I'd have to pay an enormous amount of money in taxation, as it would be a gift. If you changed the name on the bank account while everyone was alive you'd have to pay an enormous amount of money in taxation. Do you feel that transfers of money among living family members should also be tax-free?
And when the state has to manage the redistribution of an individual's holdings, they take their chunk to cover operational costs...and then some. That's not the subject under discussion.
Really? So if someone files a will correctly, and that will is safeguarded, read, and goes through probate, the probate court actually charges the estate? I'm not talking about when there is no will.
630 | albusteve Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:35:23am |
re: #623 DaddyG
Before I respond:
Which level do I get to be in? /
now let's take a look at what's behind Level #2!...curtain please!
631 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:35:24am |
632 | Nervous Norvous Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:36:00am |
Well I gotta go back to work..it's been fun...
633 | subsailor68 Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:36:54am |
The estate tax discussion is really interesting guys - regardless of which position folks want to take.
The estate tax - to me - is symptomatic of an approach to taxation that I find troubling. It is based on social engineering and political positioning, in that it is sold not as a necessary mechanism for generating needed revenue, but as a "fairness" issue. It's an easy deal for politicians - "only the rich will be affected" or "it's unearned income" etc.
I have the same problem with using the income tax for social engineering or political reasons. For example, if the feds decide it's a good thing for me to have a house - they incorporate the mortgage interest deduction. If on the other hand, they decide it's not a good thing for me to have a yacht, they incorporate the luxury tax (which pretty much blew up the economy in Rhode Island when it was tried).
Just freakin' set a reasonable level of taxation to fund government and stop using it as a tool (or weapon) for social "fairness" or any other such nonsense.
634 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:37:16am |
re: #621 soap_man
If you'd have the conversation I had this last Friday with a new acquaintance, you'd call up your parents right now and spend half an hour telling them how terrific they are.
635 | lawhawk Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:37:33am |
re: #615 Obdicut
It's a disruption to the family who is probating the estate, particularly if in the case of a family-owned business, other members of the family are working in the business.
Businesses can survive transfers, but we're talking about the family affected by the estate - where selling could mean the end of a lifestyle/livelihood.
That's the argument against a low threshold/low rate.
636 | albusteve Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:37:41am |
re: #627 Olsonist
Hers was a slippery slope argument.
If Joe gives Sally $1M, then Sally has $1M of income
whether or not Joe is Sally's father.
If Joe bequeaths Sally $1M, it seems reasonable that Sally
still has $1M of income.My dog in this fight is fairness. Income is income whether it comes from a rich daddy or a blue collar job.
it always pissed me off that my child support was never taxed as income...the govt makes the rules, however they want....fairness has nothing to do with it
637 | SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:37:52am |
re: #583 subsailor68
Well, it didn't work out all that well for Robespierre, Marat, and the gang either. The class warfare thing - demonizing the rich - not such a good idea it seems.
;-)
Because the pre-Revolution French aristocracy earned their money, and the Third Estate should have done likewise!
///
638 | reine.de.tout Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:38:17am |
re: #627 Olsonist
Hers was a slippery slope argument.
If Joe gives Sally $1M, then Sally has $1M of income
whether or not Joe is Sally's father.
If Joe bequeaths Sally $1M, it seems reasonable that Sally
still has $1M of income.My dog in this fight is fairness. Income is income whether it comes from a rich daddy or a blue collar job.
My parents worked hard all their lives, and saved.
Their income was taxed, whether they spent it or saved it. The interest on their savings and the earnings on their investments were taxed.
And then it's supposed to be taxed again when they leave it to me? How many times do you propose to tax a particular portion of money? In my book, fairness would be to tax it once, then no more.
639 | William Barnett-Lewis Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:38:24am |
re: #519 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
How about this? All of your money goes to the state when you die?
Works for me. You wouldn't have earned it without the state (education, defense, infrastructure, police & fire protection, etc) anyway.
//maybe maybe not. You decide.
William
640 | Olsonist Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:38:39am |
re: #633 subsailor68
... It is based on social engineering and political positioning, in that it is sold not as a necessary mechanism for generating needed revenue, but as a "fairness" issue. ...
Yes, it is a fairness issue. Income is income whether it comes from a rich daddy or a blue collar job.
641 | SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:38:45am |
re: #586 DaddyG
She was born in Maine to an Italian immigrant father so he can't claim it was deference to her family culture. Someone tell me- is bowing big in Tampa?
He may want to rethink his mannerism - or at least be conscious of when he admires other dignitaries shoes lest he be accused of kowtowing.
Not sure that's actually what he's doing.
642 | Guanxi88 Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:39:00am |
The estate tax is easily one of the best arguments out there for dying broke. That's been my estate plan from the start, and I've been very consistent in following the plan thus far.
643 | lawhawk Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:39:06am |
re: #635 lawhawk
Ooops - typo - that's the argument for a low threshold/rate not against it.
644 | lawhawk Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:40:03am |
re: #639 wlewisiii
If you die without any heirs - that's exactly what happens. Your estate escheats to the state.
645 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:40:11am |
"The three most important people in the world" in "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure" are Clarence Clemons (E Street Band, Sax), Martha Davis (The Motels, Lead singer) and Fee Waybill (The Tubes, Lead Singer)...
I just learned that. I'm feeling most excellent right now.
646 | Guanxi88 Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:40:30am |
re: #641 SanFranciscoZionist
Not sure that's actually what he's doing.
Looks like he's leaning in to hear or be heard. Just a guess.
647 | Obdicut Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:40:51am |
re: #638 reine.de.tout
So once I earn money, it should never be taxed again?
When I pay for a product, it should not be taxed?
When the person who I bought it from uses to pay his employee, it should not be taxed?
648 | albusteve Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:41:03am |
re: #640 Olsonist
Yes, it is a fairness issue. Income is income whether it comes from a rich daddy or a blue collar job.
says who?...the feds...doesn't make it right or fair, just makes it the law
649 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:41:38am |
re: #644 lawhawk
If you die without any heirs - that's exactly what happens. Your estate escheats to the state cheats.
Little artistic license there...
650 | Olsonist Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:41:45am |
re: #638 reine.de.tout
My parents worked hard all their lives, and saved.
Their income was taxed, whether they spent it or saved it. The interest on their savings and the earnings on their investments were taxed.And then it's supposed to be taxed again when they leave it to me? How many times do you propose to tax a particular portion of money? In my book, fairness would be to tax it once, then no more.
I'm glad your parents worked hard and hopefully they instilled those values in you. But income is income.
651 | Sol Berdinowitz Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:41:49am |
re: #583 subsailor68
Well, it didn't work out all that well for Robespierre, Marat, and the gang either. The class warfare thing - demonizing the rich - not such a good idea it seems.
;-)
re: #637 SanFranciscoZionist
Because the pre-Revolution French aristocracy earned their money, and the Third Estate should have done likewise!
///
The American ideal is of people who earned their money from scratch and just want to leave it behind so their heirs can expand the company and employ even more people at well-paid jobs with beneifits.
The reality migh vary a bit, but we don't want this ideal tqampered with
652 | Guanxi88 Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:41:57am |
re: #647 Obdicut
So once I earn money, it should never be taxed again?
When I pay for a product, it should not be taxed?
When the person who I bought it from uses to pay his employee, it should not be taxed?
It's taxed every single time it changes hands, in the examples you provide. Not quite the same thing at all.
653 | SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:42:18am |
654 | soap_man Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:42:23am |
re: #642 Guanxi88
The estate tax is easily one of the best arguments out there for dying broke. That's been my estate plan from the start, and I've been very consistent in following the plan thus far.
Hopefully you or someone else can answer this question for me, as I don't know everything about the Estate Tax.
Is it all money transferred from parent to child, or just money transferred at the time of the parents' death?
655 | DaddyG Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:42:56am |
re: #641 SanFranciscoZionist
Not sure that's actually what he's doing.
It could be a nod with a handshake. A moving picture would tell more. Either way with the shenanigans and goings on about previous bows (or un-bows) his handlers ought to talk to him about head feints while shaking hands or greeting other dignitaries.
I've already given this more thought than it deserves. Hyperventilating over this nontroversy in 3... 2... 1...
656 | albusteve Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:43:12am |
re: #650 Olsonist
I'm glad your parents worked hard and hopefully they instilled those values in you. But income is income.
so you are saying it's fair simply because an inheritance is defined as income?
657 | SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:43:13am |
re: #646 Guanxi88
Looks like he's leaning in to hear or be heard. Just a guess.
That said, if Obama wants to bow to the mayor of Tampa, I may be confused, but I have no quarrel with it.
658 | Guanxi88 Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:43:40am |
re: #654 soap_man
Hopefully you or someone else can answer this question for me, as I don't know everything about the Estate Tax.
Is it all money transferred from parent to child, or just money transferred at the time of the parents' death?
Estate taxes kick in at death. It's easier (and a lot better all around) to just gift the money to people while you're alive. The annual limits are sufficiently generous that one can move quite a bit of cash without getting the recipient subject to a taxable event.
659 | Obdicut Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:43:49am |
re: #635 lawhawk
Again: I'm asking you about this as it applied to liquid or semi-liquid assets. You are still talking about family-run businesses.
Businesses can survive transfers, but we're talking about the family affected by the estate - where selling could mean the end of a lifestyle/livelihood.
That's the argument against a low threshold/low rate.
I'm sorry, what's the argument there-- that we shouldn't lay taxes that disrupt people's lifestyles?
660 | Obdicut Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:44:50am |
re: #658 Guanxi88
Plus, using trusts is a great way for definite expenditures-- like college-- and a good, if tricky way-- to deal with high-ticket real-estate.
Tricky, though. Don't hire an incompetent lawyer, as my family did.
661 | Guanxi88 Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:45:02am |
re: #659 Obdicut
Again: I'm asking you about this as it applied to liquid or semi-liquid assets. You are still talking about family-run businesses.
I'm sorry, what's the argument there-- that we shouldn't lay taxes that disrupt people's lifestyles?
I think the gist of the argument is that the taxable event generated by the death and transfer of, say, a business, could be sufficiently large as to require the liquidation of the underlying taxed asset in order to cover the liability. That kills the business.
662 | soap_man Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:46:04am |
re: #658 Guanxi88
Estate taxes kick in at death. It's easier (and a lot better all around) to just gift the money to people while you're alive. The annual limits are sufficiently generous that one can move quite a bit of cash without getting the recipient subject to a taxable event.
Barring sudden and unexpected death, that seems like the best option. Transfer the money to the kids when you get really old and let them pay for any bills that come along. (Unless, of course, the children are assholes who will take the wealth and throw mom and dad in a dirt-cheap, cut-rate nursing home.)
663 | SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:46:06am |
re: #651 ralphieboy
The American ideal is of people who earned their money from scratch and just want to leave it behind so their heirs can expand the company and employ even more people at well-paid jobs with beneifits.
The reality migh vary a bit, but we don't want this ideal tqampered with
So don't bring in 'class warfare' and the French Revolution. There are no parallels.
I stay out of these discussions for good reason, but that I just had to comment on.
664 | webevintage Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:46:24am |
re: #661 Guanxi88
I think the gist of the argument is that the taxable event generated by the death and transfer of, say, a business, could be sufficiently large as to require the liquidation of the underlying taxed asset in order to cover the liability. That kills the business.
But can't the liability be mitigated with proper planning?
665 | subsailor68 Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:46:35am |
re: #640 Olsonist
Yes, it is a fairness issue. Income is income whether it comes from a rich daddy or a blue collar job.
I don't disagree with your point. My point is that the estate tax is a political tool. If, for example, I earn $100,000 and the income tax on that is levied at 20% (just for illustration purposes), but if I inherit $100,000 and the estate tax levied is at 55% -- that isn't a tax policy, that's a social policy. The same amount of money taxed at two rates based on what someone - generally politicians - thinks is "fair".
666 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:46:43am |
re: #629 Obdicut
Stay on target. We're talking about tax rates on estates, not how to fund courts.
Unless funding the court is the only need for which you wish to levy an estate tax.
667 | reine.de.tout Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:47:16am |
re: #647 Obdicut
So once I earn money, it should never be taxed again?
When I pay for a product, it should not be taxed?
When the person who I bought it from uses to pay his employee, it should not be taxed?
We were talking about taxing upon death money saved, I thought, not spending it while alive.
I personally do not think sales taxes are particularly "fair", they have a bigger negative effect on poor folks than those with money. But they exist, and so we pay when we buy something.
And if I leave my money to my kid, she will pay sales tax if she buys something with it. My whole issue is that once I have paid INCOME tax on the money I've earned and saved, then no, she should not have to pay INCOME tax again.
668 | Guanxi88 Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:47:22am |
re: #657 SanFranciscoZionist
That said, if Obama wants to bow to the mayor of Tampa, I may be confused, but I have no quarrel with it.
I hold no brief for the man, and dislike his politics intensely, but what we see there is a tall man leaning in to make conversation a bit easier. It looks awkward, because it is.
And if he is a sort of reflexive bowing type of guy, I'll just chalk it up to personality quirks, which tend to make me like a person more than otherwise I might.
669 | Obdicut Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:47:23am |
re: #661 Guanxi88
It doesn't kill the business, though-- it transfers it. Or for the example of a house-- the house doesn't get burned to the ground.
If someone has to sell their hardware store small business that their dad worked his fingers to the bone, it's heartbreaking-- but the business still remains. It's just the sale of a business, it's not different than if the inheritor simply sold it because they wanted to.
670 | Olsonist Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:47:41am |
re: #656 albusteve
Yes. Sentiment aside, money+property go from one person to another. That's income.
671 | Spare O'Lake Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:48:11am |
re: #651 ralphieboy
The American ideal is of people who earned their money from scratch and just want to leave it behind so their heirs can expand the company and employ even more people at well-paid jobs with beneifits.
The reality migh vary a bit, but we don't want this ideal tampered with
I thought that the American dream is that if you work your ass off and live within your means then you can make a good living, own a home, support your family, give your kids a decent education and save enough to retire in comfort.
Nothing in there about giving the next generation a free ride or building perpetual monuments.
672 | Guanxi88 Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:48:39am |
re: #664 webevintage
But can't the liability be mitigated with proper planning?
Well, yes, and, in general, the liquidation to pay taxes thing doesn't have to happen. Easiest way is a life insurance policy on the owner, payable to the others upon his death.
673 | Obdicut Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:48:40am |
re: #667 reine.de.tout
But you paid income tax on it when it was your income. She pays estate tax on it when it becomes income to her. It follows the same pattern as all those other taxes; money is taxed when it changes hands.
674 | albusteve Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:48:41am |
re: #661 Guanxi88
I think the gist of the argument is that the taxable event generated by the death and transfer of, say, a business, could be sufficiently large as to require the liquidation of the underlying taxed asset in order to cover the liability. That kills the business.
well duh!...what a novel concept, altho it seems a bit much for taxaholics to swallow
675 | lawhawk Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:48:55am |
re: #659 Obdicut
If it's semi-liquid or liquid assets, then there isn't a problem covering the costs, but most people these days have illiquid assets. They are largely real estate or businesses, and my concern is that for a family business - the estate tax would effectively kill the business via liquidation of assets to fulfill the tax obligation.
Moreover, if the rate is lower, you could potentially get the tax revenue without the additional costs necessary for trusts and various other methods used to avoid and shelter assets from expected tax obligations (or it minimizes such needs).
I've yet to hear your rationale for taxing estates at 45% or 55% as would be expected come 2011 (either rate is well above the top tax rate).
676 | Sol Berdinowitz Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:48:56am |
re: #663 SanFranciscoZionist
So don't bring in 'class warfare' and the French Revolution. There are no parallels.
I stay out of these discussions for good reason, but that I just had to comment on.
If I created that impression, then let me say that I am not bringing in "class warfare" here: am not, are few parallels between the American social system and that of pre-revolutionary France.
677 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:49:02am |
re: #650 Olsonist
I'm glad your parents worked hard and hopefully they instilled those values in you. But income is income.
My parents and I together are worth X. They die. Our worth remains X. Wherein came the income?
678 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:49:04am |
re: #659 Obdicut
Without the smartiness of earlier...
I think it is fair to say that we will never agree on this issue.
Hail, fellow well met.
679 | webevintage Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:49:09am |
re: #668 Guanxi88
I hold no brief for the man, and dislike his politics intensely, but what we see there is a tall man leaning in to make conversation a bit easier. It looks awkward, because it is.
And if he is a sort of reflexive bowing type of guy, I'll just chalk it up to personality quirks, which tend to make me like a person more than otherwise I might.
When did being gracious and having good manners become such a controversy in this country?
680 | DaddyG Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:49:19am |
re: #659 Obdicut
Again: I'm asking you about this as it applied to liquid or semi-liquid assets. You are still talking about family-run businesses.
I'm sorry, what's the argument there-- that we shouldn't lay taxes that disrupt people's lifestyles?
If my lifestyle is working in a shop for a guy who's father just passed away and gave him the company. Yes- I would rather the government didn't step in and take X% off the top.
681 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:49:57am |
re: #660 Obdicut
Plus, using trusts is a great way for definite expenditures-- like college-- and a good, if tricky way-- to deal with high-ticket real-estate.
Tricky, though. Don't hire an incompetent lawyer, as my family did.
What rate do you believe is fair, by the way?
682 | Olsonist Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:50:31am |
re: #665 subsailor68
I don't disagree with your point. My point is that the estate tax is a political tool. ...
I almost agree with you. Taxes are a political tool and estate taxes are a tax. I just want taxes to be fair in their application (John and Joe have the same income ... they should pay the same tax) Tax level is another matter and spending another matter again.
Full disclosure: I pay a lot of taxes.
683 | albusteve Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:50:32am |
re: #670 Olsonist
Yes. Sentiment aside, money+property go from one person to another. That's income.
so if the definition was changed so property and money was defined as something else, you would be okay with that?...just a matter of nuance?
684 | SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:50:37am |
re: #676 ralphieboy
If I created that impression, then let me say that I am not bringing in "class warfare" here: am not, are few parallels between the American social system and that of pre-revolutionary France.
I was just just commenting on subsailor's comment. It was a side snark. Misinterpreted your quoting. Carry on.
685 | Olsonist Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:51:30am |
re: #677 Aceofwhat?
My parents and I together are worth X. They die. Our worth remains X. Wherein came the income?
Your parents and you are not worth X. They are worth A and you are worth B. A+B=X.
686 | SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:51:42am |
re: #677 Aceofwhat?
My parents and I together are worth X. They die. Our worth remains X. Wherein came the income?
You're assuming a family corporate status which the law does not assume. I think.
687 | albusteve Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:52:01am |
re: #677 Aceofwhat?
My parents and I together are worth X. They die. Our worth remains X. Wherein came the income?
it's in the signature...changing the name is income
688 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:52:16am |
re: #669 Obdicut
It doesn't kill the business, though-- it transfers it. Or for the example of a house-- the house doesn't get burned to the ground.
If someone has to sell their hardware store small business that their dad worked his fingers to the bone, it's heartbreaking-- but the business still remains. It's just the sale of a business, it's not different than if the inheritor simply sold it because they wanted to.
what's the difference whether the house is still standing or not, once the government has evicted you through taxation?
689 | SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:52:21am |
re: #679 webevintage
When did being gracious and having good manners become such a controversy in this country?
Last year around this time...
690 | sattv4u2 Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:52:53am |
re: #677 Aceofwhat?
My parents and I together are worth X. They die. Our worth remains X. Wherein came the income?
Not to mention your parents portion of X had been taxed every step of the way till they died
691 | Stanghazi Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:53:09am |
re: #679 webevintage
When did being gracious and having good manners become such a controversy in this country?
Probably around the time that empathy became a bad word.
692 | reine.de.tout Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:53:12am |
re: #661 Guanxi88
I think the gist of the argument is that the taxable event generated by the death and transfer of, say, a business, could be sufficiently large as to require the liquidation of the underlying taxed asset in order to cover the liability. That kills the business.
Exactly.
This is a particular problem for family farms.
The wealth is the property; there is little cash as many farmers operate on a shoestring from one year to the next.
This whole issue is actually not a problem for me; my estate will never be substantial enough for an estate tax to kick in.
The people it hurts are folks like farmers; the tax is on the value of the property; the heirs do not have that sort of cash and so the family farm must be sold in order to pay the estate tax. I think this is criminal.
693 | webevintage Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:53:20am |
re: #677 Aceofwhat?
My parents and I together are worth X. They die. Our worth remains X. Wherein came the income?
Your parents are worth X.
You are not until they die.
Then what they as a couple were worth is given to you.
Then you are worth X.
695 | Guanxi88 Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:53:32am |
re: #669 Obdicut
It doesn't kill the business, though-- it transfers it. Or for the example of a house-- the house doesn't get burned to the ground.
If someone has to sell their hardware store small business that their dad worked his fingers to the bone, it's heartbreaking-- but the business still remains. It's just the sale of a business, it's not different than if the inheritor simply sold it because they wanted to.
Well, it's a bit different in that the asset, intended to provide a livelihood for the inheritors, has to pass into the hands of another to cover an imagined obligation imposed by the state on the inheritors.
696 | Olsonist Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:54:12am |
re: #683 albusteve
I don't know where you are going with this but my interest in the matter is that John and Joe are treated fairly regardless of the relationship between John and Joe.
697 | Olsonist Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:55:33am |
698 | albusteve Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:55:35am |
re: #696 Olsonist
I don't know where you are going with this but my interest in the matter is that John and Joe are treated fairly regardless of the relationship between John and Joe.
where I'm going is that the govt decides what is fair, not based on anything else besides collecting money
699 | sattv4u2 Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:55:39am |
re: #693 webevintage
Your parents are worth X.
You are not until they die.
Then what they as a couple were worth is given to you.
Then you are worth X.
And again, that "X" had been taxed the entire time the parents accumulated it
So taxing accumulated "X" when they die (and pass it to you) is double taxing that money/property
700 | subsailor68 Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:56:15am |
re: #682 Olsonist
I almost agree with you. Taxes are a political tool and estate taxes are a tax. I just want taxes to be fair in their application (John and Joe have the same income ... they should pay the same tax) Tax level is another matter and spending another matter again.
Full disclosure: I pay a lot of taxes.
Heh, we're on exactly the same page here. I absolutely agree with your example (John and Joe). It seems to me that it's because taxes are used as a political tool that in many cases, John and Joe end up in different categories. One example would be if John lives in NYC and can't afford to buy a house (or condo), but Joe lives in Topeka and can afford a four-bedroom house - oops, same income for both, but different outcomes tax-wise.
701 | Olsonist Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:56:39am |
re: #698 albusteve
where I'm going is that the govt decides what is fair, not based on anything else besides collecting money
That's true and we elect our representative.
702 | sattv4u2 Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:56:48am |
703 | SixDegrees Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:58:13am |
re: #658 Guanxi88
Estate taxes kick in at death. It's easier (and a lot better all around) to just gift the money to people while you're alive. The annual limits are sufficiently generous that one can move quite a bit of cash without getting the recipient subject to a taxable event.
In general, recipients of gifts are not liable for taxes. The giver, however, can only claim $12,000 per individual per year as a reduction against their estate; gifts over that limit are counted, in part, against the estate's total worth when the day of reckoning comes. So there's no real tax advantage for the gift giver in giving away more than $12,000 per year, to as many individuals as they see fit.
The person who receives the gift almost never pays tax on what they receive, regardless of the amount, except under a few esoteric circumstances.
704 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:58:13am |
re: #685 Olsonist
Your parents and you are not worth X. They are worth A and you are worth B. A+B=X.
WE are a family. I am differentiating this tax from all other taxes because I find it far more intrusive.
However, in your example, let me fix your equation.
Pre mortem
A+B = X
Post mortem
0+X = X
where's the income? why can't this transaction remain between me and my parents? they didn't PAY me to perform a service. I am TAKING their money.
705 | subsailor68 Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:58:22am |
re: #684 SanFranciscoZionist
I was just just commenting on subsailor's comment. It was a side snark. Misinterpreted your quoting. Carry on.
Hi SFZ! Heh, I was commenting on P.T. Barnum's post about the aristocracy and the French Revolution - just to note that it wasn't just the aristocracy that was consumed in the flames.
;-)
706 | Guanxi88 Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:58:52am |
re: #701 Olsonist
That's true and we elect our representative.
We have a perfect instance of that here in Austin; I imagine most other cities have much the same experience;
The number of voters greatly exceeds the number of property owners, and, by an amazing coincidence, the electorate tend to favor having their projects funded with property tax revenues.
707 | Olsonist Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:59:03am |
re: #700 subsailor68
Or if Joe bought a house in CA in 1970 and I bought an identical house next door in 2010. Then I have to pay 10 times more in property tax? Not good. Not fair.
708 | subsailor68 Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:59:44am |
re: #707 Olsonist
Or if Joe bought a house in CA in 1970 and I bought an identical house next door in 2010. Then I have to pay 10 times more in property tax? Not good. Not fair.
Absolutely concur!
;-)
709 | albusteve Mon, Feb 1, 2010 10:59:47am |
re: #701 Olsonist
That's true and we elect our representative.
who in turn do not represent your best interests, especially in financial terms which leads to the travesty of inheritance taxes, or pole dancer taxes, or soda pop taxes...they will go too far if allowed and we have
710 | rwdflynavy Mon, Feb 1, 2010 11:00:11am |
Those that are very wealthy will avoid the estate tax. Only those who are moderately wealthy will be impacted. As lawhawk states, the biggest challenge can be in family owned businesses.
Warren Buffet (a fan of the estate tax btw) won't pay any estate tax as he has set up a charitable trust to give the majority of his wealth to the Bill Gates foundation.
711 | Olsonist Mon, Feb 1, 2010 11:00:13am |
712 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 11:00:32am |
re: #693 webevintage
Your parents are worth X.
You are not until they die.
Then what they as a couple were worth is given to you.
Then you are worth X.
I am not asking because i lack the understanding and require an explanation. I am writing it out in simplistic terms because no new net income was created...i simply took their money. I am saying that this is a far, far more private affair than sales tax, income tax, property tax, etc. Those, at least, are transactions. This is family.
713 | Sol Berdinowitz Mon, Feb 1, 2010 11:00:51am |
Parents create a corporation, and name children to board of directors.
Inheritance problem solved.
Corporations have the same rights as real people in modern America, and certain advantages that poor working stiffs who build up a family business cannot dream of.
714 | reine.de.tout Mon, Feb 1, 2010 11:00:56am |
re: #650 Olsonist
I'm glad your parents worked hard and hopefully they instilled those values in you. But income is income.
?
No, of course they didn't instill those values in me, I'm a completely lazy bum.
/
715 | Olsonist Mon, Feb 1, 2010 11:01:25am |
re: #709 albusteve
I sure hope pole dancers pay income taxes.
716 | albusteve Mon, Feb 1, 2010 11:02:00am |
re: #704 Aceofwhat?
WE are a family. I am differentiating this tax from all other taxes because I find it far more intrusive.
However, in your example, let me fix your equation.
Pre mortem
A+B = X
Post mortem
0+X = X
where's the income? why can't this transaction remain between me and my parents? they didn't PAY me to perform a service. I am TAKING their money.
there is no income in reality...the govt calls it income to tax it...simply make believe
717 | webevintage Mon, Feb 1, 2010 11:02:02am |
re: #692 reine.de.tout
The people it hurts are folks like farmers; the tax is on the value of the property; the heirs do not have that sort of cash and so the family farm must be sold in order to pay the estate tax. I think this is criminal.
Estate Taxes and family Farms
[Link: www.factcheck.org...]
[Link: www.ctj.org...]
Most farms are sold off to pay off debts and local property taxes, not for the estate tax.
718 | Guanxi88 Mon, Feb 1, 2010 11:02:11am |
re: #713 ralphieboy
Parents create a corporation, and name children to board of directors.
Inheritance problem solved.
Corporations have the same rights as real people in modern America, and certain advantages that poor working stiffs who build up a family business cannot dream of.
Eh, the corporate route can be very tricky, indeed. It's better to give out as much as you can while alive, "sell" assets to would-be inheritors, and, in general, to make sure that everybody has his or hers before you go to your eternal reward.
719 | rwdflynavy Mon, Feb 1, 2010 11:02:54am |
re: #715 Olsonist
I sure hope pole dancers pay income taxes.
Your tips don't count. You still have to pay your taxes!!
//
720 | reine.de.tout Mon, Feb 1, 2010 11:03:48am |
re: #717 webevintage
Estate Taxes and family Farms
[Link: www.factcheck.org...]
[Link: www.ctj.org...]Most farms are sold off to pay off debts and local property taxes, not for the estate tax.
Probably so.
As I said, farmers operate on a shoestring.
So - those lucky enough NOT to sell the farms for debts and local taxes - should end up having to sell to pay the estate taxes?
721 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 11:04:09am |
re: #711 Olsonist
That is income.
Not beyond the family. And i greatly resent this governmental intrusion into what ought to be a private affair.
722 | Obdicut Mon, Feb 1, 2010 11:04:17am |
re: #680 DaddyG
I would rather that too. But if you look at any individual story of any tax, they all seem evil and unfair. That's why we all hate them. But we can't base tax policy on individual situations like that. That situation, for example, tells us nothing about what should be done in the case of the son just inheriting large amounts of stock.
I'd always rather the government didn't take money from me, or anyone else, except as needed. That doesn't mean, however, that I think that someone inheriting money deserves that money more than someone who earned that money through hard work.
723 | Olsonist Mon, Feb 1, 2010 11:06:50am |
re: #714 reine.de.tout
?
No, of course they didn't instill those values in me, I'm a completely lazy bum.
/
Well, somebody has to not get work done around here.
724 | Obdicut Mon, Feb 1, 2010 11:07:25am |
re: #681 Aceofwhat?
Oh god, that's so hard for me to answer, because I might lose the house that I love so dearly due to the estate tax. It's also heavily related to my feelings on the capital gains tax-- any time one kind of income is privileged above another, that kind of social engineering makes me a little annoyed. At the same time, I do think there's economic utility in allowing a high floor for the inheritance tax. I would actually favor a higher rate and a higher floor-- but perhaps not coincidentally, that would suit my particular situation just fine.
I'm not saying that i have the answers. I'm just saying that most of the arguments against the estate tax are either narrative arguments about particular situations, and not about the nature of inheritance itself, or are based on the 'double taxation' meme that I find completely unconvincing.
725 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 11:07:46am |
re: #711 Olsonist
That is income.
no, it's not.
Income
noun. the monetary payment received for goods or services, or from other sources, as rents or investments.
726 | SasyMomaCat Mon, Feb 1, 2010 11:09:27am |
I leave for a while and come back to a tax discussion. Looks lively. IMO, simple is better. The tax codes/types are WAY too complex. And the complexity of the code necessarily requires additional bureaucracy, which costs more money, which requires more taxes, which adds to the complexity, which -- is anyone noticing a pattern here?
Certainly, we have to have taxes to fund necessary government functions. And there is a LOT of discussion about which functions are actually necessary and to what degree.
I know, that was a bit broad for the discussion on estate taxes.
re: #410 webevintage
*waves at webvintage*
Hey! What part of AR, if you don't mind my asking? I grew up there and all of our family still lives there.
727 | webevintage Mon, Feb 1, 2010 11:11:26am |
re: #726 SasyMomaCat
*waves at webvintage*
Hey! What part of AR, if you don't mind my asking? I grew up there and all of our family still lives there.
Little Rock area, but in Saline Country.
728 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 11:13:48am |
re: #724 Obdicut
Oh god, that's so hard for me to answer, because I might lose the house that I love so dearly due to the estate tax. It's also heavily related to my feelings on the capital gains tax-- any time one kind of income is privileged above another, that kind of social engineering makes me a little annoyed. At the same time, I do think there's economic utility in allowing a high floor for the inheritance tax. I would actually favor a higher rate and a higher floor-- but perhaps not coincidentally, that would suit my particular situation just fine.
I'm not saying that i have the answers. I'm just saying that most of the arguments against the estate tax are either narrative arguments about particular situations, and not about the nature of inheritance itself, or are based on the 'double taxation' meme that I find completely unconvincing.
Interesting, and honest too. Thanks. To me, it's about drawing a small, tight circle around a family and saying "we ought to be able to transfer monies between us in the privacy of our family". Because, as you say, a family can transfer money back and forth all they want, but once they want to invest or spend it, they'll be paying taxes on it. So the money's still available for taxation, but there's a tight circle of privacy there that I'd exempt from the harsh intrusion of taxation.
729 | SasyMomaCat Mon, Feb 1, 2010 11:14:44am |
re: #727 webevintage
My brother lives in Benton - I'll wave at ya next time we pass through for a visit ;)
731 | Olsonist Mon, Feb 1, 2010 11:16:42am |
re: #725 Aceofwhat?
I struggling with Google to find the IRS definition.
732 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 11:17:07am |
re: #724 Obdicut
And you're right, as lawhawk said, income is taxed eight ways 'til sunday, so it's not about double taxation.
However, unlike all of the other transactions that, while taxed, can be greatly minimized if not avoided altogether...death is inevitable.
It feels a little bit like saying that once you turn 50, you HAVE to buy a house...and then levying enormous property taxes on the house. Death and the resulting transfer is seductive as a source of taxation because it's inevitable. That doesn't mean it's just...
733 | Obdicut Mon, Feb 1, 2010 11:17:19am |
re: #720 reine.de.tout
But that's not an argument against the estate tax, just an argument against the estate tax in particular cases-- family farms. And if the goal is to preserve the family farm, should we prevent the inheritors from selling the farm?
re: #728 Aceofwhat?
I can find no good moral or ethical grounds for that circle, though. And again, the privacy argument really doesn't work for me, because wills are not private, nor could they function if they were private.
734 | garhighway Mon, Feb 1, 2010 11:18:34am |
re: #436 lawhawk
A regulatory scheme that does what exactly - that prevents prices of real estate to rise according to market pressure?
That's exactly what's implied by your statements.
Prices rise and fall - and the risk of loss on any business decision is to be borne by the parties to the decision - the banks and the individuals.
Since the banks have more exposure - they're lending to more people while the borrower only has to worry about their particular instance, it behooves the banks to be more conservative in lending practices.
That's where the government gets involved - because they want to expand lending to meet social policy agendas - increased homeownership, minority homeownership, etc.
And by dumbing down the lending standards, we got people incapable of repaying borrowing vast sums that could never conceivably be repaid even in flush times - and the moment the real estate market corrected, threw vast portions of bank portfolios into the crapper. In fact, banks that were more conservative in their lending managed to survive the crisis alright (and bought up those that didn't).
There are no doubt many ways to skin the regulatory cat: restrictions on leverage, restrictions/disclosure on the use of swaps, restrictions (via the tax code) on the overall size of an enterprise, restrictions on the use of securitization, better transparency over the ratings process...(And repealing the laws of supply and demand is clearly not on the agenda, but thank you for the straw man exercise.)
I don't have a clue which is right. What I DO know is that the "financial regulation is bad, evil and unnecessary" theme died under the hundreds of billions of dollars WE had to pay to recapitalize the banking system. (And please don't trot out the "the government made them do it" argument. That is simply false. Nobody made Countrywide or New Century sell NINJA loans, and nobody made Citi securitize them and keep the crap tranches for their own account.) The old scheme failed. There can be no denying this. The real question is "what comes next?", and I don't pretend to have a definitive answer to that. But I am distressed that the question itself seems to have fallen off the back of the sled.
I am not comfortable trusting Citi, B of A, Goldman and JP Morgan Chase with our public fisc. But so long as they are "too big to fail", that is just what we have done. They gamble, and if they win, THEY win, and they lose big, WE lose. How is that acceptable to you? Blaming the damage caused by the collapse of the real estate bubble on individual homeowners is utterly disingenuous. It is as if the entire banking and finance system were simply innocent bystanders. They weren't.
So my question to you is: what's YOUR answer? Steady as she goes? No change needed? Lloyd Blankfein seems like a nice guy, so we'll let him hang onto the keys to Fort Knox? Whatta ya got?
735 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 11:18:53am |
re: #731 Olsonist
I struggling with Google to find the IRS definition.
That would be tautological. Of course the IRS describes it as income...they wouldn't be taxing it otherwise...my point is that the IRS description (which you were touting) is at odds with the otherwise commonly accepted definition of the term.
736 | Olsonist Mon, Feb 1, 2010 11:20:11am |
re: #735 Aceofwhat?
Fine. I'll accept that the IRS definition of income is different from the Websters definition of income.
738 | webevintage Mon, Feb 1, 2010 11:24:40am |
re: #720 reine.de.tout
Probably so.
As I said, farmers operate on a shoestring.
So - those lucky enough NOT to sell the farms for debts and local taxes - should end up having to sell to pay the estate taxes?
My point is that Family Farms, while subject to the estate tax are protected by various tax laws that mitigate the effect of the tax and that most of the "family farms" that are subject to the estate tax upon the death of the owner are not sold to pay that tax.
Now yes, it sucks of the farm is lost to debts (like a 2nd or 3rd mortage) or local property tax issues, but those have nothing to do with the estate tax.
739 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 11:25:00am |
re: #733 Obdicut
But that's not an argument against the estate tax, just an argument against the estate tax in particular cases-- family farms. And if the goal is to preserve the family farm, should we prevent the inheritors from selling the farm?
re: #728 Aceofwhat?
I can find no good moral or ethical grounds for that circle, though. And again, the privacy argument really doesn't work for me, because wills are not private, nor could they function if they were private.
Come on. A will is a public record of a very private transaction. Don't conflate the recording of a deed with our discussion of the deed itself. The recording of the deed to my house is not private, nor could our real estate market function if it could. Guess what, though, without a warrant the state can fuck off if it tries to walk through my door.
You can find no good moral or ethical ground for saying that some affairs that remain self-contained within a very tight family nucleus ought not be interfered with by the state? I don't need the state's permission every time i do something nice for my wife just because we live in a house with a publicly recorded deed. Why does the state get to bust in the door because a family transfer is recorded on a public document?
(this is the sound of me winning. surely you can do better.)
740 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 11:25:21am |
741 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 11:28:24am |
re: #734 garhighway
I don't know about lawhawk, but obscuring the role of Fannie and Freddie here is like blaming a hospital for a fatal cobra bite. Yeah, the hospital probably should have had antivenom. Can we go back to the part where the dude was playing with a cobra?
For me, your post isn't worth answering because it utterly fails to ascribe proper fault to the key players in the system.
742 | Spare O'Lake Mon, Feb 1, 2010 11:29:27am |
re: #739 Aceofwhat?
Come on. A will is a public record of a very private transaction. Don't conflate the recording of a deed with our discussion of the deed itself. The recording of the deed to my house is not private, nor could our real estate market function if it could. Guess what, though, without a warrant the state can fuck off if it tries to walk through my door.
You can find no good moral or ethical ground for saying that some affairs that remain self-contained within a very tight family nucleus ought not be interfered with by the state? I don't need the state's permission every time i do something nice for my wife just because we live in a house with a publicly recorded deed. Why does the state get to bust in the door because a family transfer is recorded on a public document?
(this is the sound of me winning. surely you can do better.)
The children asked him if to kill was not a sin,
"Not when he looked so fierce!", his mommy butted in...
743 | reine.de.tout Mon, Feb 1, 2010 11:32:05am |
re: #738 webevintage
My point is that Family Farms, while subject to the estate tax are protected by various tax laws that mitigate the effect of the tax and that most of the "family farms" that are subject to the estate tax upon the death of the owner are not sold to pay that tax.
Now yes, it sucks of the farm is lost to debts (like a 2nd or 3rd mortage) or local property tax issues, but those have nothing to do with the estate tax.
And my point - governmental practices, whether estate tax or property tax, that make it difficult or impossible for a family to retain their property - farm or otherwise - are just wrong, imo.
744 | Spare O'Lake Mon, Feb 1, 2010 11:36:37am |
re: #743 reine.de.tout
And my point - governmental practices, whether estate tax or property tax, that make it difficult or impossible for a family to retain their property - farm or otherwise - are just wrong, imo.
We are all one big happy family on this Earth, so let's share.
745 | reine.de.tout Mon, Feb 1, 2010 11:38:18am |
re: #733 Obdicut
But that's not an argument against the estate tax, just an argument against the estate tax in particular cases-- family farms. And if the goal is to preserve the family farm, should we prevent the inheritors from selling the farm?
It is an example of how an estate tax might work to tear apart what a family has put together. I have a huge problem with that; I do not believe that what a person earns belongs to the government, except for that which the government allows said person to keep. I believe that what I earn is first of all MINE, and I will pay the government required taxes. But I believe the government is wrong and does a great disservice to its citizens when taxes are so prohibitive that families must sell their property in order to pay the tax. In my mind, there's a huge difference between HAVING to sell in order to give over to the government; and selling because it is what I want to do.
746 | reine.de.tout Mon, Feb 1, 2010 11:40:47am |
re: #744 Spare O'Lake
We are all one big happy family on this Earth, so let's share.
I share plenty though my charitable donations.
The problem with the "one big happy family" bit, of course, is that "let's all share" really means "some of you share with the rest of us".
747 | Dancing along the light of day Mon, Feb 1, 2010 11:44:13am |
re: #743 reine.de.tout
Which is why California has Proposition 13, so that a parent or grandparent can leave the family home to a child, and the property taxes don't reset to market value. My folks pay $8,000 or so a year in property taxes, the people next door pay $33,000. Parents bought in 1970 and neighbors in 2007.
748 | Obdicut Mon, Feb 1, 2010 11:46:55am |
re: #739 Aceofwhat?
I'm sorry, but I feel that your definite of 'private' isn't working for me. Wills are not private instruments. They are public to prevent anyone being cheated out of what they were left in the will. A person can make a will and leave nothing to his children. Even if you feel that the transaction of money inside a family 'should' be protected from the government, you're just asserting that, not actually constructing an argument for it. The basis of estate tax is that the income is unearned and a gift. Your argument is that the government should butt out of family affairs-- though still, of course, adjudicate the will fairly and impartially. I do not find that is even an argument.
(this is the sound of me winning. surely you can do better.)
And you can do much better than declare yourself 'winning'.
749 | aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 12:35:11pm |
re: #748 Obdicut
I'm sorry, but I feel that your definite of 'private' isn't working for me. Wills are not private instruments. They are public to prevent anyone being cheated out of what they were left in the will. A person can make a will and leave nothing to his children. Even if you feel that the transaction of money inside a family 'should' be protected from the government, you're just asserting that, not actually constructing an argument for it. The basis of estate tax is that the income is unearned and a gift. Your argument is that the government should butt out of family affairs-- though still, of course, adjudicate the will fairly and impartially. I do not find that is even an argument.
And you can do much better than declare yourself 'winning'.
And a deed is not a private instrument...if i feel that my neighbor has intrude upon my property, i will call upon the government to adjudicate it. That does not give the government the right to enter my door.
The basis of the estate tax is that we have voted in such a way that it is so. I am saying that I believe there should be no limits on private gifts within a limited family circle. There should be a moral or ethical reason why the government can take my family's possessions, not a moral reason why the government should NOT take my family's possessions.
The argument, which i will restate, is:
1. A family gift is a very private affair, wholly unlike a "transaction" such as a purchase, an investment, a hire, a utility bill, or a job. I find it far more repulsive to have the state intrude on the former.
2. The government is not required for the proper adjudication of a well-planned estate. Even if they were, that does not in itself identify the subject matter as more or less fit for taxation than any other subject.
3. A family gift is only "income" in the IRS definition of the term. Elsewhere in the land of clear thinking, gifts and income mean two different things.
4. No ethical reason should be required to state that a tax is unfair. Rather, a tax needs to state an ethical reason why it is fair.
750 | Obdicut Mon, Feb 1, 2010 1:06:08pm |
re: #749 aceofwhat?
1. A family gift is a very private affair, wholly unlike a "transaction" such as a purchase, an investment, a hire, a utility bill, or a job. I find it far more repulsive to have the state intrude on the former.
And again, that's an assertion, not an argument. That you find it repulsive doesn't matter.
2. The government is not required for the proper adjudication of a well-planned estate. Even if they were, that does not in itself identify the subject matter as more or less fit for taxation than any other subject.
Only a perfectly-planned state escapes probate, and even then, the contracts and legal mechanisms drawn up to avoid probate are likewise provided for and safeguarded by the government. Without the government, inheritance becomes a killing affair. History shows this well enough.
. A family gift is only "income" in the IRS definition of the term. Elsewhere in the land of clear thinking, gifts and income mean two different things.
Sure. And if anything, gifts should be taxed more highly than income, by that definition. Income is something someone worked for.
4. No ethical reason should be required to state that a tax is unfair. Rather, a tax needs to state an ethical reason why it is fair.
Right. And the estate tax is fair because it's taxing unearned income, or a gift, or whatever you want to call it. Money is changing hands, and it's not fair to not tax that money because it's inheritance, but tax someone else for actually working hard to earn the same amount of money.
751 | reine.de.tout Mon, Feb 1, 2010 1:10:59pm |
re: #750 Obdicut
Right. And the estate tax is fair because it's taxing unearned income, or a gift, or whatever you want to call it. Money is changing hands, and it's not fair to not tax that money because it's inheritance, but tax someone else for actually working hard to earn the same amount of money.
Not fair to whom?
And why are we concerned about fairness to the people who don't have that money, but unconcerned about fairness to the person who does have the money?
And you keep bringing up the "income" idea - if it is income, as you say, then why is it taxed as an "estate" tax and not as income tax?
752 | Obdicut Mon, Feb 1, 2010 1:22:01pm |
re: #751 reine.de.tout
And why are we concerned about fairness to the people who don't have that money, but unconcerned about fairness to the person who does have the money?
I don't understand that question. I'm concerned about everyone who has to pay taxes. I'm asking why we should privilege gift money above money that someone worked to earn.
And you keep bringing up the "income" idea - if it is income, as you say, then why is it taxed as an "estate" tax and not as income tax?
Functionally? It's taxed that way since really the people who inherit aren't paying taxes, the estate is. We could change the law to make it pure income tax, but then that would actually penalize those people even more, unless there were a hell of a lot of 'em.
If you mean why do I consider them both income, it's because in both cases money is coming in to the person.
753 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 1:23:51pm |
re: #750 Obdicut
#1 is an argument why your ASSERTION that the estate tax was akin to other taxes is not necessarily true. I then asserted that i find the notion repulsive. Please be more careful with ASSERTING that i have not made an argument.
Right. And the estate tax is fair because it's taxing unearned income, or a gift, or whatever you want to call it. Money is changing hands, and it's not fair to not tax that money because it's inheritance, but tax someone else for actually working hard to earn the same amount of money.
You are asserting that the estate tax is "fair because it's taxing unearned income, or a gift, or whatever you want to call it". (I want to call it whatever the dictionary calls it, by the way. Let's stick with that.)
Fair enough. I am asserting that the estate tax is unfair because once i have paid my fair share of taxes on my income, i wish to be able to give whatever portion i desire to a family member without losing another percentage to the state. If i have $10MM and i wish to give $5MM to my daughter, i will actually give her $5MM plus the amount to be taxed so that she ends up with $5MM. My ARGUMENT is that you are taxing the donor, not the recipient.
The recipient is not taxed. The ESTATE is taxed. You know the one that the ESTATE OWNER already paid taxes on.
754 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 1:25:59pm |
re: #752 Obdicut
Wow, you even wrote in your own post that it's actually the estate who is being taxed.
Make up your mind. You can't argue that gifts should be taxed but that the estate should be taxed.
One or the other.
(n.b. it is my assertion that you find yourself accidentally contradicting yourself because the estate tax embodies the contradiction that I rail against.)
755 | Obdicut Mon, Feb 1, 2010 1:33:49pm |
re: #753 Aceofwhat?
is an argument why your ASSERTION that the estate tax was akin to other taxes is not necessarily true. I then asserted that i find the notion repulsive. Please be more careful with ASSERTING that i have not made an argument.
It is akin to the other taxes. That you find it repulsive doesn't make it different, it makes your reaction to it different. I could find taxes on gifts to best friends repulsive-- it doesn't mean that the taxes are really functionally different.
I'm sorry, but I really don't find an argument from personal revulsion to be anything but assertion. I'm sorry it angers you, but it's my honest opinon.
You are asserting that the estate tax is "fair because it's taxing unearned income, or a gift, or whatever you want to call it". (I want to call it whatever the dictionary calls it, by the way. Let's stick with that.)
Which dictionary? Which definition in the dictionary?
Fair enough. I am asserting that the estate tax is unfair because once i have paid my fair share of taxes on my income, i wish to be able to give whatever portion i desire to a family member without losing another percentage to the state.
I know that you want that. I'm asking why it's fair to let you to, whereas if I, once I have paid my fair share of taxes on my income, want to purchase something, I have to pay taxes on that purchase.
If i have $10MM and i wish to give $5MM to my daughter, i will actually give her $5MM plus the amount to be taxed so that she ends up with $5MM. My ARGUMENT is that you are taxing the donor, not the recipient.
Well, in the case of estates, that's perfectly true-- the estate is taxed, not the recipient. However, it's still taxing the transfer, not just taxing because someone died. The taxes are only on the money that's being transferred.
The recipient is not taxed. The ESTATE is taxed. You know the one that the ESTATE OWNER already paid taxes on.
Yeah, but it's a lot more logically true to say that the transaction is being taxed, not the estate. The common sense of what's occurring is that the inheritors are receiving money and assets that they did not have before, and that that transaction is taxed.
I am asking, again, why that transaction should be privileged above the transaction of me working hard to earn that amount of money.
I'm sorry that I upset you. I'm not trying to do anything other than explain my position, and I think you're really not getting where I'm coming from if you're focusing on whether or not it's the estate or the inheritor being taxed.
By the way, gift tax actually functions the same way as inheritance tax, so when you give your daughter five million, you can give her five million and pay the gift taxes on it yourself.
Make up your mind. You can't argue that gifts should be taxed but that the estate should be taxed.
I'm not getting that statement at all. Why not?
756 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 1:52:40pm |
re: #755 Obdicut
I can't say it more clearly. The repulsive statement was just an aside. The argument was the first sentence. If you can't look past the aside, then you don't want to have a serious discussion about this.
757 | Obdicut Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:02:26pm |
re: #756 Aceofwhat?
Ace, that's unfair. Your #1 was " 1. A family gift is a very private affair, wholly unlike a "transaction" such as a purchase, an investment, a hire, a utility bill, or a job. I find it far more repulsive to have the state intrude on the former."
To me, this is still assertion. You're saying that it's private and the government shouldn't butt in because it reaches some level of privacy you think should be privileged. It doesn't explain what metric you're using for 'private' that this reaches but other things don't. It doesn't explain how it's private when wills are public, and very few people manage to settle all accounts so as to bypass probate. Those that do are still being overseen by the government in forms of the endorsement and protection of all the legal mechanisms they used in order to avoid probate. It doesn't explain why something being a private affair should be privileged in taxation. It doesn't explain why this is private but a gift between two good friends isn't, or a gift between family members-- unless you really do want that tax-free as well.
Again, I'm sorry that I angered you, and it wasn't my intention. I really, really am trying to make the case that most of the arguments used to support an end to or a significant lowering of the estate tax are variations on special pleading that do a disservice to those paying taxes on earned income.
758 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:04:35pm |
re: #755 Obdicut
Which dictionary? Which definition in the dictionary?
The definition of "income" as something earned, as opposed to "gift", which is not. Unearned income is a gift.
I know that you want that. I'm asking why it's fair to let you to, whereas if I, once I have paid my fair share of taxes on my income, want to purchase something, I have to pay taxes on that purchase.
Because, as i said earlier, you can choose to avoid most purchases. So there is a tax on a discretionary behavior...as opposed to dying, which is not discretionary. I can choose not to invest (and avoid capital gains), i can choose not to live in a house (and avoid property taxes), etc...but i can't choose not to die. Eventually i have to give my things to someone else. That's one argument for why it's fair. If you WANT to purchase something, you have to pay taxes on it. At least you can factor in the taxes as part of your decision to make a purchase (again, i'm generalizing, of course we purchase necessities but even then the sales tax can be minimized by purchasing inexpensive necessities). You can alter when and what you purchase to pay less sales tax if you choose. Death is not a choice, ergo the tax is inherently less fair.
Yeah, but it's a lot more logically true to say that the transaction is being taxed, not the estate. The common sense of what's occurring is that the inheritors are receiving money and assets that they did not have before, and that that transaction is taxed.
Untrue. The estate is taxed at a rate that is independent of the gifts. Whether I have one child or fifteen amongst whom i wish to spread my estate, the tax is first applied to the estate, then the remainder is passed along. If the taxation were a function of the transaction, it would apply on a transaction basis.
Don't worry, i'm not upset. I am a little bit frustrated at the nitpicking between assertions and arguments. That's counterproductive. Just tell me where you disagree and why and I'll do my best to do the same!
759 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:10:11pm |
re: #757 Obdicut
I'm a little frustrated, not angry. don't worry - i'm very hard to anger.
forget that i ever said i found it repulsive. it's distracting us.
I made the argument that a gift from me to my child is a far more private affair than the other transactions that I listed.
Now i will add to that, after having read what you wrote. The existence of a legal framework to document and support my gift is not nearly the same as conducting a transaction with an entity outside of my family.
I am denying your statement that business between me and another entity is the same as business between me and my family. There are legal constructs to support the record that my family exists, to support our right to call ourselves a family, etc. Those same constructs do not allow the state to rush into my house when it chooses and meddle in my affairs. My argument is that a private transfer of funds between family member A and B is more like any other private matter between family member A and B than a matter between family member A and outside entity X.
Is that closer to what you were looking for?
760 | Obdicut Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:10:31pm |
re: #758 Aceofwhat?
The definition of "income" as something earned, as opposed to "gift", which is not. Unearned income is a gift.
Well, unearned income includes stuff like rental property and capital gains, so... I'm sorry, I've lost where you're going with that bit.
Because, as i said earlier, you can choose to avoid most purchases. So there is a tax on a discretionary behavior...as opposed to dying, which is not discretionary.
There is no tax at all on dying, though. There is a tax on the estate. That's entirely avoidable as well. So I really don't get your argument here; it seems to be an argument for the estate tax. If you don't want to pay estate tax, then use the many mechanisms to reduce your estate below the level that it'll take effect at, including giving gifts-- and being taxed on them.
Estate tax is not inevitable, as easily shown by the 99.75% of people who paid zero estate tax when it was at its $3.5 million mark. So what do you mean by it being inevitable?
Untrue. The estate is taxed at a rate that is independent of the gifts. Whether I have one child or fifteen amongst whom i wish to spread my estate, the tax is first applied to the estate, then the remainder is passed along. If the taxation were a function of the transaction, it would apply on a transaction basis.
I meant gifts while you were alive.
Don't worry, i'm not upset. I am a little bit frustrated at the nitpicking between assertions and arguments. That's counterproductive. Just tell me where you disagree and why and I'll do my best to do the same!
I am.
761 | Obdicut Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:12:54pm |
re: #759 Aceofwhat?
Yes, that's more what I'm looking for.
So you really do believe that family members ought to be able to transfer money between themselves without paying any tax on it or having that tracked in any way by the government?
And why is your family more private than my close friendship? What objective measure is there that you're using of privacy to make that demarcation?
762 | Obdicut Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:15:41pm |
re: #759 Aceofwhat?
And thanks for letting me know you're not angry. But I'm still sorry to frustrate you.
763 | Obdicut Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:17:26pm |
Here's a really great article that pretty much-- but not entirely-- sums up my feelings on the common-sense thinking about the estate tax, as opposed to ethical.
[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]
764 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:21:18pm |
re: #760 Obdicut
Well, unearned income includes stuff like rental property and capital gains, so... I'm sorry, I've lost where you're going with that bit.
You said "which dictionary". Unearned income is a tax term that is more clearly stated as "investment income" or "capital gains". I am proposing that we stick to the typical english dictionary terms. Just answering your question. A gift is not income in the English dictionary.
Estate tax is not inevitable, as easily shown by the 99.75% of people who paid zero estate tax when it was at its $3.5 million mark. So what do you mean by it being inevitable?
The percentage is irrelevant. What percentage of the people who paid zero estate tax had an estate that qualified in the first place? You don't need to answer the question, i'm just illustrating why the percentage was irrelevant and not helpful to the discussion. We are clearly debating a case that IS relevant.
In the case we are debating, an individual who wishes to give their $10million estate to their child(ren), it is impossible to use mechanisms to reduce the estate by ~66% without giving most of the estate away, which is not what the individual wants to do.
Therefore, it is inevitable that the government will swipe a very large percentage of that person's estate, because not even their death is momentous and private enough to keep the government from biting off a large chunk before "allowing" the individual to give their hard-earned possessions to their children. There is no choice, unlike the rest of our non-income taxes.
765 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:21:31pm |
re: #762 Obdicut
And thanks for letting me know you're not angry. But I'm still sorry to frustrate you.
i'm already over it!
766 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:27:07pm |
re: #761 Obdicut
Yes, that's more what I'm looking for.
So you really do believe that family members ought to be able to transfer money between themselves without paying any tax on it or having that tracked in any way by the government?
And why is your family more private than my close friendship? What objective measure is there that you're using of privacy to make that demarcation?
Why is my family more private than your close friendship...huh. That one caught me by surprise! I'm not really going to dig up the myriad legal and governmental constructs which treat family far, far differently than friendships. I'm following the existing demarcation, not creating my own. What bundle of rules, laws, and regulations would lead you to believe that the government regards your close friendship with anything similar to the recognition, support, and structure that has been created around immediate family in this country?
767 | Obdicut Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:37:06pm |
re: #766 Aceofwhat?
You're not following existing demarcation, because existing demarcation is to tax the gifts to family members.
What bundle of rules, laws, and regulations would lead you to believe that the government regards your close friendship with anything similar to the recognition, support, and structure that has been created around immediate family in this country?
The ones that say that any contract between me and a friend is identical to one with a family member with the same language.
As far as economic stuff goes, family members really aren't that privileged by law. Aside from your spouse, that is-- and you'll note that's a non-blood family member.
Hell, I don't even know what you mean when you say 'family'? Do you mean your second cousins? Just descendants?
768 | Obdicut Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:37:59pm |
re: #767 Obdicut
And:
Given that most estates are left to family and others, is your argument about the estate tax only confined to cases where the estate is left to family members, not to friends or other individuals?
769 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:50:47pm |
re: #768 Obdicut
And:
Given that most estates are left to family and others, is your argument about the estate tax only confined to cases where the estate is left to family members, not to friends or other individuals?
Yes and no. One of my arguments is that family is different, and I mean "wife, parents, children". I don't really know how to respond to #767...the point is not that a contract differs whether it's with a family or a friend. The point is that i am comfortable making the assertion (heh) that the life events shared between parents, spouses, and children throughout our lifetime is far different and special, on balance, than what occurs between friends. Much of our social and legal structure supports that assertion.
A friend can be simulated for the purposes of disguising actual income as a gift. Family is recorded, registered, very limited, and different. Family is special, as evidenced by the society that we live in.
771 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:53:28pm |
re: #767 Obdicut
As far as economic stuff goes, family members really aren't that privileged by law.
They are recognized by law. That would be, as opposed to your friend (although i'm sure your friend is a very nice person)
772 | Obdicut Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:56:45pm |
re: #769 Aceofwhat?
Much of our social and legal structure supports that assertion.
But it really doesn't. You have very little legal rights in reference to your children once they hit majority. Almost none. Can you name one that you think has bearing on the discussion?
A friend can be simulated for the purposes of disguising actual income as a gift. Family is recorded, registered, very limited, and different. Family is special, as evidenced by the society that we live in.
That's a good distinction, that family is mutable in a limited way. However, it still doesn't say why they should have this privilege, just a way that they're different. And the demarcation line of spouse, children, parents-- so not siblings? Someone dying and leaving his estate to his brothers and his nephews would, I believe, not fall under your definition of 'family'. So your cut off seems rather arbitrary.
In the end, it seems to me that your idea privileges someone who dies suddenly with five children above someone who dies without issue. Is that your intention, to have taxation function as social engineering and reward the family unit?
773 | Obdicut Mon, Feb 1, 2010 2:58:34pm |
re: #771 Aceofwhat?
Actually, he's a jackass. But he's awesome. You know the type.
And I wouldn't leave him my money, because he'd blow it all. I might leave him a trust, though, if I were so inclined.
774 | garhighway Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:11:22pm |
re: #741 Aceofwhat?
I don't know about lawhawk, but obscuring the role of Fannie and Freddie here is like blaming a hospital for a fatal cobra bite. Yeah, the hospital probably should have had antivenom. Can we go back to the part where the dude was playing with a cobra?
For me, your post isn't worth answering because it utterly fails to ascribe proper fault to the key players in the system.
I don't have the stats regarding what percentage of the failed CDOs (and the subprime paper that composed them) passed through Fannie and Freddie's hands, but I am under the impression that it was pretty low. Their underwriting standards were higher than (again, for example) Countrywide's or New Century's, and if they were involved, there wouldn't have been any need for people like Merrill, Citi, Lehman, Bear and the rest to structure and underwrite the RBMS's.
More simply put, Fannie and Freddie didn't kill Merrill, Merrill did. Ditto the others I named. And the pain surrounding the takeover of those two isn't what collapsed the credit markets. That happened when Lehman failed, and I haven't seen any responsible financial commentator lay that failure at the feet of Fannie and Freddie. (I note that in my earlier comment, I wasn't talking about Fannie and Freddie, I was talking about the oft-mentioned conservative theory that the Community Reinvestment Act was responsible for the housing bubble and credit crisis. But I wasn't clear on that point. Sorry.)
I have no particular ax to grind regarding those two entities, and I certainly agree that their whole reason for being is worth reconsideration. But if they simply ceased to exist, we would still have the risks we have today, and we would have done nothing meaningful to address them. That is what bothers me.
Finally, feel free not to answer posts of mine that fall below your standards. I promise not to read your silence as assent.
775 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:30:26pm |
re: #772 Obdicut
That's a good distinction, that family is mutable in a limited way. However, it still doesn't say why they should have this privilege, just a way that they're different. And the demarcation line of spouse, children, parents-- so not siblings? Someone dying and leaving his estate to his brothers and his nephews would, I believe, not fall under your definition of 'family'. So your cut off seems rather arbitrary.
In the end, it seems to me that your idea privileges someone who dies suddenly with five children above someone who dies without issue. Is that your intention, to have taxation function as social engineering and reward the family unit?
Not quite, although any tax applied unevenly is social engineering, right?
My idea is not so concrete as to debate specific family lines. Let's say for the sake of this debate that we're only discussing family = wife and children. I'm not privileging anyone. Watch-
Two people with $10M estates die suddenly. In my example above, neither can give tax-free to individuals who are not their wife or children.
See? Even stephen.
To your comment farther above - "That's a good distinction, that family is mutable in a limited way. However, it still doesn't say why they should have this privilege, just a way that they're different. "
Ask someone with children if it's a reasonable proposition to debate about whether their relationship with their children is more, less, or equally special than their relationship with their friends. Come on. The sky is blue, and one's kids are different from one's friends.
It's one of several logical places within a family where one could logically draw a circle and say "within here, we will respect your privacy by allowing you to gift your hard-earned money to whichever family member you choose at whatever time you choose to do so".
776 | Aceofwhat? Mon, Feb 1, 2010 3:34:10pm |
re: #774 garhighway
Fannie and Freddie utterly failed to manage their risk too. See: ginormous government bailout.
777 | Obdicut Mon, Feb 1, 2010 4:18:26pm |
re: #775 Aceofwhat?
Ask someone with children if it's a reasonable proposition to debate about whether their relationship with their children is more, less, or equally special than their relationship with their friends. Come on. The sky is blue, and one's kids are different from one's friends.
Okay. But I asked for examples of this distinction made in the law at any point. You haven't given any. I submit to you that there are very, very few cases where a child-parent relationship is in any way privileged by the way when it comes to economic matters.
Two people with $10M estates die suddenly. In my example above, neither can give tax-free to individuals who are not their wife or children.
See? Even stephen.
I don't think that analogy works. Here it is in another form:
Two people who want to marry the persons they love. Neither can marry someone of the same gender. The first person is gay, the second person is straight.
See? Even stephen.
It's one of several logical places within a family where one could logically draw a circle and say "within here, we will respect your privacy by allowing you to gift your hard-earned money to whichever family member you choose at whatever time you choose to do so".
But I don't find that in the least bit logical. I don't see any logic why that is a good thing to occur, but me taking my heard-earned money and giving it to a friend who truly deserves and needs it, through my judgment, should be taxed highly. Hell, if anything, I'd be more confident that people who wanted to give money to their friends were doing so out of honest intentions than those giving to family.
778 | garhighway Tue, Feb 2, 2010 5:10:11am |
re: #776 Aceofwhat?
I agree.
But they didn't nearly destroy our economy. (People are already forgetting what a close call it was in September 2008. The credit markets were FROZEN. People were accepting negative returns in exchange for liquidity!) That was the subprime lenders, their syndicators and the rating agencies. And while it was real estate that time, it could be something else next time. So long as we let those players take such huge risks that their losses can cripple our economy, we remain exposed to exactly the same thing happening again.