Jump to bottom

514 comments
1 freetoken  Tue, Aug 9, 2011 10:58:47pm
Man is condemned to be free; because once thrown into the world, he is responsible for everything he does.

I think I was more or less pushed (via my mother's pelvic muscles) out into this world, not exactly "thrown".

2 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Aug 9, 2011 11:06:02pm

Sartre is responsible for his defense of Stalinism.

3 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Aug 9, 2011 11:07:47pm

re: #1 freetoken

I think I was more or less pushed (via my mother's pelvic muscles) out into this world, not exactly "thrown".

It's an existentialist term (also popular with Heidegger et al).

Apropos:

Youtube Video
4 EdDantes  Tue, Aug 9, 2011 11:20:24pm

re: #1 freetoken

I think I was more or less pushed (via my mother's pelvic muscles) out into this world, not exactly "thrown".

Riders on the storm
Into this house we're born
Into this world we're thrown

5 laZardo  Tue, Aug 9, 2011 11:24:17pm

re: #4 EdDantes

Riders on the storm
Into this house we're born
Into this world we're thrown

Youtube Video
6 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Aug 9, 2011 11:30:59pm

re: #1 freetoken

I think I was more or less pushed (via my mother's pelvic muscles) out into this world, not exactly "thrown".

Indeed. However, if you keep up with your smarmy pedantry, you'll be on the fast track to getting "thrown" out of this world.
/kidding

7 laZardo  Tue, Aug 9, 2011 11:34:25pm

Evening folks. Went to see Cowboys & Aliens while mom and aunt had friends over for some bible study class.

Also, new page. :D

8 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Aug 9, 2011 11:39:58pm

re: #7 laZardo

I just drew shit and drank beer today, oh also I threw a bunch of crap in my garage away because I need more space for drums

9 laZardo  Tue, Aug 9, 2011 11:45:53pm

re: #8 WindUpBird

I've seen what you've drawn. I don't want to know what comes out when you draw drunk. ;__;

anyhoo time for bed nighty

10 3CPO  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 12:00:15am

Hey, freetoken!

We had a miserable time in San Diego, but we did find a few bright spots. Have you been to Hodad's? The most amazing burgers we've ever had. We went three times in one week.

We also found a great Irish pub called Stout. We at there three times as well. Mmmmmm.....

11 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 12:20:59am

yo, wassup

13 Winny Spencer  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 12:49:19am

Obama plan: Destroy Romney

"Weird", really? What a Dog whistle to Evangelicals.

14 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 12:50:54am

Hey, look what I found in a Picasa album:

Image: hellovader.jpg

15 3CPO  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 1:00:22am

Okay. Mitt Romney's superPAC is called "Restore Our Future." Can someone please tell me how one can restore something that doesn't exist yet?

16 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 1:07:42am

re: #15 3CPO

Okay. Mitt Romney's superPAC is called "Restore Our Future." Can someone please tell me how one can restore something that doesn't exist yet?

Magnets, and a sophisticated heat beam which we call a "laser."

17 3CPO  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 1:17:35am

re: #16 goddamnedfrank

I believe lasers are burning my toast. You can't explain that!

18 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 1:18:19am

I really need to stop going to bed so early. I know I'm only gonna sleep for 6 hours and then be wide awake.
And good morning honcos.

19 Alexzander  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 1:18:47am

re: #18 Cannadian Club Akbar

I really need to stop going to bed so early. I know I'm only gonna sleep for 6 hours and then be wide awake.
And good morning honcos.

What time is it for you right now?

20 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 1:21:06am

re: #19 Alexzander

What time is it for you right now?

4:21AM.

21 Alexzander  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 1:22:34am

re: #20 Cannadian Club Akbar

4:21AM.

That certainly is early to be waking. 1:21 for me - going to bed soon. On an overnight shift.

22 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 1:24:31am

re: #21 Alexzander

That certainly is early to be waking. 1:21 for me - going to bed soon. On an overnight shift.

I started watching TV about 9 last night. Fell asleep. As long as I get 6 hours, I'm good. And if I wake up and I'm not still tired, I stay awake. The body clock doesn't lie.

23 Alexzander  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 1:28:12am

re: #22 Cannadian Club Akbar

I started watching TV about 9 last night. Fell asleep. As long as I get 6 hours, I'm good. And if I wake up and I'm not still tired, I stay awake. The body clock doesn't lie.

My sleep varies a lot; sometimes I'm awake and thats the end of the story. Other days I can go back to sleep quite easily.

24 3CPO  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 1:30:11am

Good morning!

25 Alexzander  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 1:31:26am

Where there any hatchlings in the previous thread?

26 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 1:31:49am

You damn West coasters and your late nights!!!

27 3CPO  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 1:32:37am

I thought it was early morning...?

28 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 1:35:07am

re: #27 3CPO

I thought it was early morning...?

Na. 1:30 your time is still late night. But, I use the Taco Bell drive through as a barometer.:)

29 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 1:36:02am

re: #27 3CPO

I thought it was early morning...?

It's afternoon, duh.

30 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 1:57:59am

If it were up to me, all the people associated with the Gulf oil spill, which is murdering the Gulf, would be executed. That would be part of the function of a state.
[Link: deepgreenresistance.org...]

Okie dokie.

31 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 1:59:11am

re: #30 Cannadian Club Akbar

If it were up to me, all the people associated with the Gulf oil spill, which is murdering the Gulf, would be executed. That would be part of the function of a state.
[Link: deepgreenresistance.org...]

Okie dokie.

Are those of that "let's kill all humans to save kitties and sluggies" crowd?

32 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 2:00:04am

re: #30 Cannadian Club Akbar

We treat corporations as people with all their according rights, but you cannot throw a corporation in jail to be sodomized.

33 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 2:02:28am

re: #31 Sergey Romanov

Are those of that "let's kill all humans to save kitties and sluggies" crowd?

Yes. They should lead by example.

34 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 2:03:12am

Mother of the Year candidate.

35 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 2:06:55am

re: #34 Cannadian Club Akbar


Home Schooling in film production?

36 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 2:07:11am

I also remember ELF (earth liberation front) who sets shit of fire (car dealerships, ski lodges under construction) to protest humans destroying the planet. Kinda defeats the purpose, though.

37 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 2:08:25am

re: #35 ralphieboy

Home Schooling in film production?

Maybe she was hoping for her own YouTube channel.
/

38 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 2:10:15am

re: #33 Cannadian Club Akbar

Yes. They should lead by example.

There was this wacko who was worried about "bunnies" etc., he was covered here at LGF. Lazy to search.

39 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 2:13:34am

re: #38 Sergey Romanov

There was this wacko who was worried about "bunnies" etc., he was covered here at LGF. Lazy to search.

I also remember a story from years ago about a young woman who wanted a hysterectomy to prevent her from "polluting" the planet. I wanna say she was in the UK.

41 Decatur Deb  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 2:37:31am

Blogging is other people.

42 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 2:40:33am

re: #41 Decatur Deb

Blogging is other people.

Soylent Green blogging?

43 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 2:45:26am

re: #32 ralphieboy

We treat corporations as people with all their according rights, but you cannot throw a corporation in jail to be sodomized.

I'm just waiting for legalized corporation-corporation marriage. Although, we already do have mergers.

44 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 2:49:47am

re: #43 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I'm just waiting for legalized corporation-corporation marriage. Although, we already do have mergers.

They will just have to establish at the outset whether they are "male" or "female" corporations.

45 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 2:50:51am

re: #44 ralphieboy

They will just have to establish at the outset whether they are "male" or "female" corporations.

Maybe Tractor Supply will merge with Lane Bryant and make things easier.

46 RogueOne  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 3:06:15am

Morning folks

47 researchok  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 3:19:21am

Morning, all.

48 RogueOne  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 3:27:52am

The Danger to China’s Economy
[Link: the-diplomat.com...]


The questionable returns on this building frenzy are beginning to affect the financial system. China’s banks are exposed to a variety of questionable and interdependent real estate financing schemes including off-book lending to skirt Beijing's attempts to reign in the sector. Fitch estimates a rise in non-performing loans to 30 percent in the next 3 years. UBS and Credit Suisse are voicing increasing concerns as well. Without accurate assessments of total liabilities firmer figures are hard to come by, adding to the sector’s uncertainty.

Government officials have instructed state-owned banks to re-evaluate their property exposure, one in a string of new policies over the last year to tamp down speculation, control inflation, and rein in massive outlays for spending on development projects.

I hope they don't need their money back anytime soon.

49 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 3:32:43am

“Pres Obama, show some guts & arrest the CEO of Standard & Poors. These criminals brought down the economy in 2008& now they will do it again,” Mr. Moore wrote.

Mr. Moore went on to note that the “owners of S&P are old Bush family friends,” continuing a theme he has developed through several films about capitalism as essentially a crony system for the rich and Wall Street, especially the Bush family.

[Link: www.washingtontimes.com...]

Heh.

50 RogueOne  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 3:33:28am

Crime lab finds another 3,000-plus untested rape kits
[Link: www.chron.com...]


For years, the Houston Police Department has conceded about 4,000 rape kits — all untested — are stored in a property room freezer, but a recent inventory shows there are potentially thousands more containing never-examined evidence from sexual assault cases.

"I think that's a disgrace and a disservice to women and the victims," said Johnny Mata, an activist with the Greater Houston Coalition for Justice. "What's happening right now is not acceptable"

According to department officials and figures compiled for a grant awarded to HPD from the National Institute of Justice this year, more than 3,000 kits stored in air-conditioned sections of the property room may not have been tested in addition to the 4,220 untested kits in a property room freezer. The estimate of additional kits is based on a random sampling.

Not only can untested sexual assault evidence cause delays in justice for rape victims, it also can lead to the conviction of innocent people.

Last month, the Houston Chronicle reported on a 1995 rape case that was solved after DNA evidence in the case, never previously analyzed, was tested. The suspect in the case, Roland Ali Westbrooks, was serving a prison sentence for a similar rape committed two years later.

51 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 3:37:38am

re: #50 RogueOne

Crime lab finds another 3,000-plus untested rape kits
[Link: www.chron.com...]

The recent grant money of about $1 million, Rios said, will be used to study factors that have prevented the crime lab from testing thousands of rape kits. A previous $1.1 million federal grant awarded to HPD last year will be used to complete processing on 2,300 untested kits in the property room freezeer


Using grant money to find out why you didn't properly use grant money?

52 RogueOne  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 3:38:48am

After watching more videos of the riots in London I'm wondering did the UK ban tear gas and water cannons? They're talking about jumping straight to using rubber bullets which is a bad idea.

53 RogueOne  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 3:40:34am

re: #51 Cannadian Club Akbar

The recent grant money of about $1 million, Rios said, will be used to study factors that have prevented the crime lab from testing thousands of rape kits. A previous $1.1 million federal grant awarded to HPD last year will be used to complete processing on 2,300 untested kits in the property room freezeer

Using grant money to find out why you didn't properly use grant money?

Houston has a long running problem with their local PD. They're the detroit of the south.

54 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 3:41:14am

re: #52 RogueOne

After watching more videos of the riots in London I'm wondering did the UK ban tear gas and water cannons? They're talking about jumping straight to using rubber bullets which is a bad idea.

[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

55 RogueOne  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 3:43:51am

re: #54 Cannadian Club Akbar

[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

FTA:

"the way we police is by consent."

I don't think that plan is working.

56 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 3:44:12am

Warren Jeffs Sentenced To Life For Sexually Assaulting Children

The Warren Jeffs trial came to a close today when the polygamist leader was given a life sentence for sexually assaulting two of his underage "spiritual wives." The Texas jury, which quickly found Jeffs guilty last week, deliberated for less than 30 minutes before giving Jeffs the maximum sentence of 99 years for one charge and 20 years for the other.

57 RogueOne  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 3:45:08am

re: #56 iceweasel

I saw something last night that said he still has roughly 1000 followers. Unbelievable.

58 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 3:46:20am

re: #57 RogueOne

I saw something last night that said he still has roughly 1000 followers. Unbelievable.

Yeah. At least he's finally going to jail.

59 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 3:47:47am

re: #56 iceweasel

Sexual assaulting underage girls? In Texas? He'll be just fine in prison. (I'll set the over/under at 18 months)

60 RogueOne  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 3:49:34am

re: #54 Cannadian Club Akbar

More FTA:

“I find it strange that we are willing to use these sort of measures against the Irish yet when Englishmen step out of line and behave in this atrocious and appalling way, we are happy to mollycoddle them,” he said. “If the police want cannon then they should be allowed to use them. I have used water cannon myself and I found them extremely effective.”

In the late 80's my university (which had a rep as a party school) won it's first NCAA basketball tourney game. The celebration turned into a riot. No one got hurt, no major property damage, and a lot of fun was had until they came out with the water cannon. They put out the little fires and cleared the streets pretty quickly.

61 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 3:51:43am

re: #60 RogueOne

Gonzaga?

62 RogueOne  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 3:52:12am

re: #61 Cannadian Club Akbar

Gonzaga?

Ball State! Testicle tech...I'd rather BallU than IU..etc..

63 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 3:52:53am

re: #62 RogueOne

Ball State! Testicle tech...I'd rather BallU than IU..etc..

David Letterman went there, correct?

64 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 3:53:11am

98-Year-Old Woman Reaches Judo’s Highest Rank

Our inspiring story of the day concerns Sensei Keiko Fukuda, who was just promoted to 10th degree black belt, judo's highest level. The 98-year-old overcame gender discrimination that kept her at a lower rank than less skilled men for decades. Fukuda still teaches judo and is now one of only three people in the world to reach the rank of 10th dan.

65 RogueOne  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 3:53:38am

re: #63 Cannadian Club Akbar

David Letterman went there, correct?

Yes. He still gives a lot of money.

66 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 3:54:54am

re: #64 iceweasel

98-Year-Old Woman Reaches Judo’s Highest Rank

I hope she celebrated by kicking the asses of a bunch of young punks.
///

67 RogueOne  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 3:55:34am

re: #66 Cannadian Club Akbar

I hope she celebrated by kicking the asses of a bunch of young punks.
///

In her case, 80yr olds. Get off her lawn!

68 RogueOne  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 3:56:36am

Time to run. Enjoy the day people. Give peace a chance and all that.

69 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 3:59:11am

Alex Jones calls UK riots "race wars", alleges media blackout over riots being racial, blames "cultural marxists":

Youtube Video

See also Katharine Birbalsingh @ The Telegraph: "These riots were about race. Why ignore the fact?" (prominently linked by Drudge, see also "flash mobs", as mentioned by Alex Jones, linked on Drudge)

70 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 4:00:37am

re: #69 000G

Caveat: Actually agree with the last part about Greenspan talking BS. Heh.

71 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 4:06:31am

re: #56 iceweasel

Couldn't happen to a nicer guy.

72 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 4:16:37am

re: #69 000G

Slightly different tone from yesterday, too:

Youtube Video
73 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 4:17:39am

I wonder if the state of Wisconsin could have found something more effective to do with a half a million dollars.

74 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 4:19:23am

G'Morning, honcs.

75 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 4:22:01am

re: #72 000G

The Mayor of Philly's pretty pissed too.

76 Obdicut  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 4:23:01am

re: #73 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I wonder if the state of Wisconsin could have found something more effective to do with a half a million dollars.

It was a lot more than that. Special-interest money poured into the election.

77 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 4:23:09am

re: #75 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The Mayor of Philly's pretty pissed too.

As is the USOC.
[Link: www.sunjournal.com...]

78 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 4:27:23am

re: #76 Obdicut

It was a lot more than that. Special-interest money poured into the election.

Oh. 30 million spent on the election. 25 million was outside money. But that didn't come out of the State's coffers; 450,000.00 was the cost to the state. The party's can spend what they want.

Just thinking that most states could think of something good to do with a half a mil.

79 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 4:38:02am

re: #78 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

You'd think a lot more states would hold recall elections if they could generate a 5,000% ROI...

80 Obdicut  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 4:48:54am

Vonnegut Library Director Fights School District's 'Slaughterhouse-Five' Ban

I like this bit:

The Vonnegut Memorial library responded to Slaughterhouse's banning by offering up 150 free copies to send to the school district's students. In a note on the library's website called "Stop the Madness!" the organization writes to Republic's students, "We think it’s important for everyone to have their First Amendment rights. We’re not telling you to like the book…we just want you to read it and decide for yourself."

81 Ziggy Standard  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 5:02:58am

Morning folks!

English riots condemned for "growing absurdity":

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

82 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 5:04:45am

Wisconsin senators face recall vote - The Boston Globe
www.boston.com/news/politics/.../wisconsin_senators_face_recall_vote/
5 hours ago – Wisconsin senators face recall vote. Voters in Onalaska, Wis., ... shift control of the Wisconsin Senate to Democrats and provide a new ...


I found this doing a googly search. The page isn't there, though.

83 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 5:07:21am

re: #81 Jimmah

Morning folks!

English riots condemned for "growing absurdity":

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

I went looting and all I got was this Gremlin!!! (or whatever that thing is!!)

84 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 5:09:01am

re: #81 Jimmah

Morning folks!

English riots condemned for "growing absurdity":

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

I am waiting to see the Katrina beer looter guy.

85 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 5:12:08am

re: #84 Alouette

I am waiting to see the Katrina beer looter guy.

After Katrina hit, all the beer bound for NOLA was rerouted. We were getting 12 packs here for $6. Budweiser did send a shitload of canned water to NOLA, though.

86 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 5:12:59am

Are there Wisconsin democrats facing recall next week?

87 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 5:14:38am

re: #86 Cannadian Club Akbar

Are there Wisconsin democrats facing recall next week?

Yep. 2. Won't change things, though.

88 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 5:20:20am

re: #79 ralphieboy

You'd think a lot more states would hold recall elections if they could generate a 5,000% ROI...

Hullva point, that.

89 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 5:22:55am

re: #84 Alouette

I am waiting to see the Katrina beer looter guy.

Black people loot:

Image: katrina1.jpg
Image: katrina2.jpg

White people borrow:

Image: katrina3.jpg

90 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 5:26:34am

re: #89 Sergey Romanov

At least the guy in the 2nd pic had his priorities inline.
/

91 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 5:32:41am

Morning Lizardim. The Twin Cities metro area got absolutely rocked by a deadly accident inside the Lowry Tunnel underneath Minneapolis's west side. Right at the beginning of rush hour, no less. Good thing this dopefish knows a little bit more than "swim swim hungry..."

92 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 5:38:05am

re: #91 thedopefishlives

Wow. At first I was thinking "How many cars were involved"!!!

93 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 5:38:26am

re: #89 Sergey Romanov

Black people loot:

Image: katrina1.jpg
Image: katrina2.jpg

White people borrow:

Image: katrina3.jpg

The captions describe the black people as "looters" but the white people as "finders"

94 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 5:40:30am

re: #93 Alouette

The captions describe the black people as "looters" but the white people as "finders"

The captions were from 2 different sources, though. AP for the first 2 and AFP for the 3rd.

95 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 5:41:54am

re: #94 Cannadian Club Akbar

The captions were from 2 different sources, though. AP for the first 2 and AFP for the 3rd.

But all looters, don't get me wrong.

96 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 5:42:22am

re: #92 Cannadian Club Akbar

Wow. At first I was thinking "How many cars were involved"!!!

Cars? We don't need no STINKIN' cars!

97 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 5:43:47am

re: #94 Cannadian Club Akbar

The captions were from 2 different sources, though. AP for the first 2 and AFP for the 3rd.

The photos were from different sources. Whether the captions were from those sources or from Yahoo - I don't know.

98 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 5:44:02am

re: #93 Alouette

The captions describe the black people as "looters" but the white people as "finders"

We white folk are just naturally lucky. We ... find things. And we're so happy when we find them, because we're grateful for our inborn luck.

99 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 5:44:59am

re: #98 Sergey Romanov

That guy looks like he's on meth. Heh.

100 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 5:45:15am

re: #97 Sergey Romanov

True.

101 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 5:52:15am

re: #93 Alouette

The captions describe the black people as "looters" but the white people as "finders"

I remember there was some controversy over the captions when they came out, but it was generally buried in the general clusterf*ck of outrage over katrina and its consequences.

102 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 5:53:35am

Populist/nationalist Ratigan loses it on his MSBNC show, blasts banking system, calls congress bought

MSNBC Video
103 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 5:58:29am

re: #89 Sergey Romanov

Who said that?

104 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 5:59:19am

re: #103 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Oh. They did say that. Holy fuck!

105 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:00:06am

re: #102 000G

The girl on the right is cute. And I like that he blasted both parties.

106 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:00:39am

Wow. The sky just turned black. It is about to hammer here.

107 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:01:12am

re: #106 Cannadian Club Akbar

Wow. The sky just turned black. It is about to hammer here.

Why does Thor hate you?

108 iossarian  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:02:42am

Relatively unbiased* piece on "who are the looters" in London:

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

* I think this is an example of good reporting (as discussed yesterday).

109 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:03:11am

re: #107 Alouette

Why does Thor hate you?

Not sure. I wish he would hate some of our Texas lizards for a couple weeks, though.

110 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:04:52am

re: #108 iossarian

Relatively unbiased* piece on "who are the looters" in London:

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

* I think this is an example of good reporting (as discussed yesterday).

Will be so much fun when our societies finally collapse :)

/

111 iossarian  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:07:33am

re: #110 Sergey Romanov

Will be so much fun when our societies finally collapse :)

/

Interesting comment a friend of mine made yesterday about the rioters. People reach for the term "anti-social" but they're really not - they're actually very social, in the sense of generating their own (albeit very unstable) society of rioters, looters and assorted onlookers (something which the article linked above describes quite well).

112 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:10:31am

morning all!

How is it going?

113 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:10:57am

re: #111 iossarian

Are there any "hierarchies", to your knowledge?

114 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:11:01am

re: #111 iossarian


anti-established society, yes.

But face it, they have been watching a business and political elite loot their country for decades now, whatever they are doing on the streets makes for more interesting TV coverage, but is chump change compared to what the guys in suits are doing every day.

115 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:11:15am

Mob leader: Let's go beat up the man!
Mob: Yeah! Down with the man!
Mob: Uh... Where's the man?
Mob leader: Uh... that guy!
That guy: Huh? I just came out to get an ice cream.

116 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:11:56am

re: #114 ralphieboy

Does that excuse them?

117 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:12:13am

There's nothing funny about the riots.

But, if the rioters chanted, "Cake or Death!"; I'll bet that some people would laugh.

118 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:13:42am

re: #114 ralphieboy

That's nonsense. Nothing to do with it. An excuse to bust shit up.

119 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:13:42am

My favorite "rioters" are the girls who proclaimed "Down with the Gubment" while drinking wine. Prolly in a loft of some sort.

120 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:13:52am

re: #116 Sergey Romanov

Does that excuse them?


I do excuse either the guys in suits or the guys in hoodies, we are just talking about some of the factors that brought these riots about. any sound discussion should center on what to do to keep things from boiling over like this again.

121 iossarian  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:14:06am

re: #113 Sergey Romanov

Are there any "hierarchies", to your knowledge?

The article mentions possible criminal gang involvement in the looting, but I was thinking of the more unstructured social acts, particularly looting, where people wait for safety in numbers, seek tacit approval from their peers, and look out for each other by raising an alert when the police arrive.

These are all social acts, just as the "plausible deniability" of investment banks and news organizations stems from sophisticated social interactions within those firms.

122 reine.de.tout  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:14:16am

Speaking of news reporting (a conversation I participated in yesterday).

It's odd how things happen.

There is a FB page "You know you're from MyCity if you remember . . .", that I was looking at yesterday afternoon.

A former co-worker (and boss) of my dad popped in during a discussion of the town's newspaper, and made this comment:

"CW was long-time city editor of (the newspaper name). helped hone skills of many young journalists and he covered news with no sacred cows or personal agenda. A newsman's newsman.

I took it as high praise.

123 iossarian  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:14:49am

re: #116 Sergey Romanov

Does that excuse them?

As the guy interviewed on the street said: if people had paid any attention to the peaceful protests, maybe there wouldn't be riots now.

124 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:15:00am

re: #120 ralphieboy

Good that you don't.

125 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:15:10am

re: #120 ralphieboy

I do excuse either the guys in suits or the guys in hoodies, we are just talking about some of the factors that brought these riots about. any sound discussion should center on what to do to keep things from boiling over like this again.

I do NOT excuse the guys...

126 Obdicut  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:15:13am

re: #116 Sergey Romanov

Does that excuse them?


Nope. There is no excuse for rioting and looting.

However, it also does not excuse those who do looting through balance sheets, but who are doing it within the letter of the law.

I have no sympathy for the looters. I have no sympathy for those who put other people's safety on the line, burning buildings, stopping police (and ambulances) from being able to help people.

But the cause of the riots is still important to look into.

127 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:15:21am

re: #122 reine.de.tout

Nice.

128 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:15:26am

re: #123 iossarian

As the guy interviewed on the street said: if people had paid any attention to the peaceful protests, maybe there wouldn't be riots now.

Does that excuse them?

129 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:16:07am

re: #126 Obdicut

But the cause of the riots is still important to look into.

Of course, nobody says otherwise.

130 reine.de.tout  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:16:14am

re: #127 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Nice.

Was, indeed.
BBL

131 iossarian  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:16:20am

re: #116 Sergey Romanov

Does that excuse them?

It doesn't, but it might explain them.

132 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:17:04am

This article states they are arresting people based on CCTV footage. How effective is that when the rioters are wearing masks?

133 Winny Spencer  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:17:29am

re: #102 000G

Populist/nationalist Ratigan loses it on his MSBNC show, blasts banking system, calls congress bought

[Link: www.msnbc.msn.com...]

An imperious, over caffeinated and testosterone-soaked buffoon.

134 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:17:30am

when a house catches fire the first priority is to put the damn thing out, then to figure out what caused it and then to take steps to see that it does not happen again.

the discussion on the riots quickly gets all three confused and conflated, those who try to talk about the rioters motives are often then branded as sypathizers or trying to rationalize/justify their actions.

135 Obdicut  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:18:08am

re: #129 Sergey Romanov

Of course, nobody says otherwise.

I don't think what Ralphieboy said can be reasonably interpreted as offering an 'excuse', though, either.

136 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:18:11am

re: #131 iossarian

It doesn't, but it might explain them.

Maybe, maybe not. 2000 demonstrated he said, IINM? What if that amount was demonstrating every day, or at least regularly? Did they just demonstrate for one day and give up? Sorry, I don't believe they couldn't have gained attention by peaceful means. No evidence that they had all venues exhausted.

137 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:18:25am

I remember years ago there were riots in St. Pete. The rioters burned down a Babcock Furniture store. The store gave tons of money every year to help needy kids get skool supplies. They didn't rebuild.

138 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:19:34am

re: #135 Obdicut

I don't think what Ralphieboy said can be reasonably interpreted as offering an 'excuse', though, either.

It was close to the apologetic rhetoric I've seen elsewhere, which is why I asked him.

139 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:21:16am

If I thought the majority of the rioters were actually using a the riot as a form of protest, might take them seriously. I get the idea they are young adults using violence as a means of extreme partying.

140 iossarian  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:24:32am

re: #136 Sergey Romanov

Maybe, maybe not. 2000 demonstrated he said, IINM? What if that amount was demonstrating every day, or at least regularly? Did they just demonstrate for one day and give up? Sorry, I don't believe they couldn't have gained attention by peaceful means. No evidence that they had all venues exhausted.

He wasn't rioting, was he? He was offering the suggestion that maybe if people had paid more attention to the issues underlying these riots, they wouldn't have happened.

The rioters don't feel that they owe anything to "decent society". I wonder why that is?

141 Obdicut  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:24:48am

re: #138 Sergey Romanov

It was close to the apologetic rhetoric I've seen elsewhere, which is why I asked him.

I don't think it was, though. I mean, I'd say exactly the same thing. The reasons for the riots are complex, but part of them is definitely based in a lack of belief in economic mobility in the groups they are rioting, and that is partially fueled by an increasing divide between rich and poor and cuts in social services that provided an economic pathway out of that social strata.

I don't think that means that a riot is therefore acceptable, allowable, or a good idea. Calling any attempt to explain the reasons for the riots close to an attempt at apologetic seems to me to derail conversation for no apparent reason.

142 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:25:16am

For example, from dKos, of course:

The morality of the London riots
by
Abscondo

Despite the breathless shock and the pleading rationalizations of TV news anchors, I don't believe that the rioters, looters, and vandals in London over the past week have any responsibility to explain or to morally justify their actions at all. These are angry, frustrated people living under a national and global system that, itself, cannot be morally justified...one that is designed to exploit its citizens economically, indiscriminately murder them in wars based on lies, rob them through slick financial instruments, and systematically loot the world of all of its natural resources. This is a system that is designed and run to destroy lives and destroy the world for the benefit and pleasure of the elite billionaires. How dare they ask the rest of us to morally justify anything.

When the world is, indeed, run by entirely selfish elite bankers, big oil, big defense, big pharma, etc., and no real democracy exists which would give its citizens the opportunity to instrument any real, fundamental change in the system (at least in the US or UK), when the government itself is clearly corrupt and illegitimate, then any action that involves the looting or destruction of property is probably not unjustifiable at all.

If individuals exist who are willing to risk enormous consequences (prison) to go out there and express this anger and frustration, then so be it. When you oppress, sometimes people get fed up and fight back. It is what it is and it should be totally expected.

143 iossarian  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:25:30am

re: #141 Obdicut

I don't think it was, though. I mean, I'd say exactly the same thing. The reasons for the riots are complex, but part of them is definitely based in a lack of belief in economic mobility in the groups they are rioting, and that is partially fueled by an increasing divide between rich and poor and cuts in social services that provided an economic pathway out of that social strata.

I don't think that means that a riot is therefore acceptable, allowable, or a good idea. Calling any attempt to explain the reasons for the riots close to an attempt at apologetic seems to me to derail conversation for no apparent reason.

Indeed.

144 lawhawk  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:26:07am

re: #132 ggt

The London police have a very impressive CCTV system that makes the system currently in place in NYC seem to be child's play. It would appear that they've got the ability to track movements from where the rioting occurred back to where these rioters were living. They're also getting tips from people who were affected by the rioting and helping to make arrests that way as well.

In other words the CCTV isn't preventing crime, but it's helping to bring about arrests of those involved in the rioting (which has apparently spread from London to several other cities while the massive police presence in London helped calm things significantly last night).

145 Political Atheist  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:27:13am

Volatile market is volatile.
New York Gold August 10, 2011

146 Obdicut  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:27:24am

re: #139 ggt

If I thought the majority of the rioters were actually using a the riot as a form of protest, might take them seriously. I get the idea they are young adults using violence as a means of extreme partying.

I think a lot of it is the opportunity to steal shit that you couldn't afford. Another part of it is to get to punch people you wanted to punch. Both of these are basic, criminal urges that humans have, which are kept in check by civil society.

Part of the way that they are kept in check is by civil society providing economic opportunity to citizens, so that they do not feel that they will never have a chance to own X. It doesn't excuse the theft in the least. But it is as much of a failure of civil society that the riots occurred as it is that they couldn't protect their citizens from these thefts.

147 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:28:28am

re: #144 lawhawk

The London police have a very impressive CCTV system that makes the system currently in place in NYC seem to be child's play. It would appear that they've got the ability to track movements from where the rioting occurred back to where these rioters were living. They're also getting tips from people who were affected by the rioting and helping to make arrests that way as well.

In other words the CCTV isn't preventing crime, but it's helping to bring about arrests of those involved in the rioting (which has apparently spread from London to several other cities while the massive police presence in London helped calm things significantly last night).

Knowing Big Brother is watching doesn't seem to have an impact on these young people.

148 Obdicut  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:28:46am

re: #142 Sergey Romanov

What inherently self-contradictory crap. If the looters were only looting the big corporate stores, that might have some internal consistency to it, though it'd still be a shit argument. But the rioters are looting mom-and-pop stores too, not to mention beating the crap out of people, attacking Mosques, etc.

149 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:30:02am

re: #146 Obdicut

I think a lot of it is the opportunity to steal shit that you couldn't afford. Another part of it is to get to punch people you wanted to punch. Both of these are basic, criminal urges that humans have, which are kept in check by civil society.

Part of the way that they are kept in check is by civil society providing economic opportunity to citizens, so that they do not feel that they will never have a chance to own X. It doesn't excuse the theft in the least. But it is as much of a failure of civil society that the riots occurred as it is that they couldn't protect their citizens from these thefts.

But these are young people. When I was 20 I never thought I be able to own a home or travel or whatever, I couldn't think past my next dismal paycheck. At that age, any concept of the future is scewed --can we blame society for that?

150 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:30:40am

I know how to break up the riots: Throw job applications at them!!
///to soon?

151 iossarian  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:30:53am

I mean, we had a quotation here yesterday, I believe, of a guy in one of the ratings agencies, literally saying that he knew what he did was wrong, but he did it so as not to lose business.

In other words: he knew that he was doing wrong, but he did it so he could buy a new Lexus.

That guy was quoted by name. He isn't in jail, is he? All this "you can't excuse the rioters" shit is just hot air unless you actually address the very real reasons why they don't feel they should sign up for a shit life and nothing at the end of it.

152 Obdicut  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:30:55am

re: #147 ggt

Knowing Big Brother is watching doesn't seem to have an impact on these young people.

I don't know the situation of violence in these communities, but in the worst inner-city environments in the US, spending time in prison actually extends your life expectancy. When your life is already pretty shit, the penalty of prison is rather low. Of course, some people see the solution to this as making prison harsher. I don't find that a compelling argument.

153 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:31:07am

re: #145 Rightwingconspirator

Volatile market is volatile.
New York Gold August 10, 2011

Lots of people trying to make money with gold trades in the wake of the debt crisis news. Some of them more quickly than others.

154 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:31:08am

re: #126 Obdicut

Well, no. To repeat:

But face it, they have been watching a business and political elite loot their country for decades now, whatever they are doing on the streets makes for more interesting TV coverage, but is chump change compared to what the guys in suits are doing every day.

Why the "chump change" comparison if not to excuse it not that big of a deal? It's like that Dawkins debacle, where he was comparing the girl in the elevator and the life circumstances of women in Islamic theocracies.

RB says it was not an excuse and I believe him, but the question was absolutely justified.

155 Obdicut  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:32:57am

re: #149 ggt

But these are young people. When I was 20 I never thought I be able to own a home or travel or whatever, I couldn't think past my next dismal paycheck. At that age, any concept of the future is scewed --can we blame society for that?

First of all, it's not just young people. Second of all, I disagree entirely that young people can't think about the future. Lots of kids plan out their careers starting in high school, many more, at age 20, in college or in their first jobs, are thinking about the future. I was.

I think that we think of young people as far more different from adults than they actually are.

156 darthstar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:34:02am

Mornin' kids...so, Wisconsin Republicans hold their majority, but now it's a majority of one vote - and remember that one Republican had voted with the Democrats against Walker's union-busting bill that spawned these recalls. So at least he won't be able to pull that kind of shit again this term.

157 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:35:34am

The wave-ride is still on:

-309.89 (-2.76%)
[Link: www.google.com...]

158 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:36:47am

re: #157 000G

The wave-ride is still on:

-309.89 (-2.76%)
[Link: www.google.com...]

DJIA=Sybil

159 iossarian  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:36:58am

re: #154 Sergey Romanov

Well, no. To repeat:

Why the "chump change" comparison if not to excuse it not that big of a deal?

I'm really not sure what your point is here. That some people are excusing the rioters? Maybe they are. I'm not - I'm explaining that, if you disenfranchise huge swathes of the population, you're going to get rioting.

Cause. Effect.

If society leads people to find self-worth in consumer products, then you're going to get executives looting their companies' pension funds to reward themselves. That doesn't excuse that, either.

Cause. Effect.

160 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:38:19am

re: #142 Sergey Romanov

dude, don't put DKos words in my mouth.

once again: when a house is burning down, first priority is to put out the fire. then to determine what caused it and then to figure out how to prevent it from happening again.

let us not get the three all confused. i am talking about what will need to change if we do not want to see more of this sort of thing.

161 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:38:55am

re: #160 ralphieboy

dude, don't put DKos words in my mouth.

once again: when a house is burning down, first priority is to put out the fire. then to determine what caused it and then to figure out how to prevent it from happening again.

let us not get the three all confused. i am talking about what will need to change if we do not want to see more of this sort of thing.

Education and Contraception are my only answers.

162 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:39:07am

re: #159 iossarian

I'm really not sure what your point is here.

The point is that the question was justified.

That some people are excusing the rioters? Maybe they are. I'm not - I'm explaining that, if you disenfranchise huge swathes of the population, you're going to get rioting.


That's a truism at this point. I don't know why people need to repeat it that often.

163 darthstar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:39:24am

re: #159 iossarian

I'm really not sure what your point is here. That some people are excusing the rioters? Maybe they are. I'm not - I'm explaining that, if you disenfranchise huge swathes of the population, you're going to get rioting.

Sometimes tweeting ones anger isn't enough to let the steam off adequately.

164 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:39:54am

re: #160 ralphieboy

dude, don't put DKos words in my mouth.

Which I never did, of course.

165 Gus  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:40:31am

re: #158 Cannadian Club Akbar

DJIA=Sybil

Another temper tantrum from the DOW? What for this time?

Morning.

166 Gus  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:41:21am

3 bumble bees die in New Zealand. DOW plummets...

//

167 Political Atheist  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:41:30am

Okay just my observation-When gold is more than platinum (or close) we have epic distortions going on. Compare anything you want about those metals and you see why this is nonsense. Platinum is way more scarce and way harder to produce now or refine later in recycling.

Like now.

168 darthstar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:41:50am

re: #165 Gus 802

Another temper tantrum from the DOW? What for this time?

Morning.


Because they can

169 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:42:41am

My guess is that these initial plunges will go on for a while. A lot of smartasses try to make money by shorting early when trading starts.

170 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:42:58am

Screw the DOW. I'm gonna party like it's 1987!!!
/

171 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:43:52am

re: #161 ggt

the UK has a reasonable education system and its people have access to contraception. what they no longer have is an empire, one which allowed enough leeway for people to rise in society without challenging the established elites.

but socialy mobility is highly restricted, the working class in Britain is seeing itself as becoming improverished by the changes in the ecnonomy, the middle class is desperately trying not to sleip down into the working class and the ruling class is getting richer.

this is the sort of social configuration that is all but going to guarantee instability for a very long time.

172 Obdicut  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:44:26am

re: #154 Sergey Romanov

Well, no. To repeat:

Why the "chump change" comparison if not to excuse it not that big of a deal?

Because it really is chump change. It really is, comparatively, a much smaller amount of economic damage.

It's like that Dawkins debacle, where he was comparing the girl in the elevator and the life circumstances of women in Islamic theocracies.

I don't think that's a good analogy at all. It doesn't appear to have any relationship to the current situation at all. Ralphieboy was not writing to someone who was hurt in the riots, he wasn't saying that the riots are okay, or to be grateful that things aren't worse.

blockquote>RB says it was not an excuse and I believe him, but the question was absolutely justified.

I know you think it was. I disagree. It gets tiring to me that anyone attempting to explain why, for example, petty crime is associated with poverty has to explain that this is not making an excuse for those who are poor and commit petty crimes.

The way the legal, economic, and justice systems are set up is really such that a rich, powerful person can both get away with more within the bounds of the law, and provide a much better defense for themselves after being caught. The times when someone really gets held to account, like Madoff, are few and far between.

Part of my feelings on this are colored by the Enron scandal. Enron deliberately distorted energy prices and engaged in incredibly fraudulent accounting practices, leading to destitution for many people in California. A very small number of actual convictions came out of this, even with a veritable mountain of evidence.

These things are related to the riots, because they reflect inequities in our society that we have not addressed successfully.

I don't know if you've read Going Postal by the great Terry Prachett, but it contains a great bit where a man-- actually, a golem-- tells a con-man who prides himself on never using violence that his actions have resulted in 2.4 deaths. The man protests, but the golem points out that poverty, homelessness, and the other results of such cons do lead to death.

When I read Ralphieboy's statement, I see nothing close to an excuse for the rioters. I see a pained notation that when a building is burned down by rioters, it is easy to make arrests, easy to point the finger at the violence. When a factory is closed down and the jobs moved off-shore, it is perfectly legal, but the harm it may cause to that society can be far greater.

I am also concerned about such violence occurring in the US as our rich-poor divide grows greater and greater. I don't think that we can prevent it by condemnation of the rioters and looters as very bad people. I think we need to address the actual roots of the problems.

173 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:49:03am

re: #171 ralphieboy

the UK has a reasonable education system and its people have access to contraception. what they no longer have is an empire, one which allowed enough leeway for people to rise in society without challenging the established elites.

but socialy mobility is highly restricted, the working class in Britain is seeing itself as becoming improverished by the changes in the ecnonomy, the middle class is desperately trying not to sleip down into the working class and the ruling class is getting richer.

this is the sort of social configuration that is all but going to guarantee instability for a very long time.

Which is something I cannot understand. I didn't grow-up in it.

A Caste? system.

174 Gus  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:49:14am

Take 2.

Good morning experts!

175 Obdicut  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:49:36am

re: #173 ggt

The US has very low social mobility right now by a large number of measures as well, I'm afraid. That's part of what concerns me.

176 iossarian  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:50:06am

re: #173 ggt

Which is something I cannot understand. I didn't grow-up in it.

A Caste? system.

Social mobility is just as restricted in the US. The idea that the US doesn't have a class system is laughable.

177 lawhawk  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:50:11am

re: #163 darthstar

So, break other people's stuff instead?

Youtube Video
178 Obdicut  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:50:18am

re: #174 Gus 802

*steeples fingers*

Now what seems to be the problem?

/aside from AT&T sucking like a whale shark.

179 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:50:22am

re: #175 Obdicut

The US has very low social mobility right now by a large number of measures as well, I'm afraid. That's part of what concerns me.

No, but if you aren't making it in LA, you can move to Waterloo. England is not so big or diverse.

180 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:51:45am

re: #176 iossarian

Social mobility is just as restricted in the US. The idea that the US doesn't have a class system is laughable.

I guess I don't understand what is meant by

social mobility.

I"m not sure too many Americans are truly concerned with it.

181 Obdicut  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:52:10am

re: #179 ggt

No, but if you aren't making it in LA, you can move to Waterloo. England is not so big or diverse.

Being able to move takes a fair chunk of money to do, unless you're completely without possessions. Movement is not a panacea, especially over long distances.

I agree that the UK is not as diverse, and obviously not as big. However, the problems with social mobility exist in large portion in the US, so whatever ameliorative effects our size and diversity have, they're not enough to prevent social stratification occurring here as well.

182 McSpiff  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:52:13am

re: #175 Obdicut

The US has very low social mobility right now by a large number of measures as well, I'm afraid. That's part of what concerns me.

But when you look at the size and scope of the welfare state in the UK, if it also has a low social mobility I'm nearly to the point of saying it's not a problem that can be fixed. Social housing, much higher access to secondary learning, job centres, much higher welfare, etc.

What more can society do for these people?

183 iossarian  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:52:42am

re: #180 ggt

I guess I don't understand what is meant by

I"m not sure too many Americans are truly concerned with it.

Usually, it's defined as ending up in a different socio-economic group than the one you started in. I.e., making more money than your parents did.

It's sometimes referred to as the American Dream.

184 Obdicut  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:52:43am

re: #180 ggt

Social mobility is economic mobility; the ability to better your economic conditions, usually measured as relative to your parents.

185 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:53:48am

re: #184 Obdicut

Social mobility is economic mobility; the ability to better your economic conditions, usually measured as relative to your parents.

hmmm, I've never had that as a goal.

186 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:54:19am

re: #182 McSpiff

But when you look at the size and scope of the welfare state in the UK, if it also has a low social mobility I'm nearly to the point of saying it's not a problem that can be fixed. Social housing, much higher access to secondary learning, job centres, much higher welfare, etc.

What more can society do for these people?

You can lead a horse to water . . . .

187 Obdicut  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:54:31am

re: #182 McSpiff

But when you look at the size and scope of the welfare state in the UK, if it also has a low social mobility I'm nearly to the point of saying it's not a problem that can be fixed. Social housing, much higher access to secondary learning, job centres, much higher welfare, etc.

What more can society do for these people?

A lot of that stuff has been cut back heavily, first under Thatcherism and now as well. A lot of the traditional civil service jobs that were a way out, especially for immigrants, have been reduced as well.

It's very true that you can't fix the problem simply by spending a lot of money on it; you have to use programs that actually work. But the UK is not the welfare paradise that the GOP makes it out to be.

188 darthstar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:54:47am

re: #177 lawhawk

So, break other people's stuff instead?


Whatever happens, we'll blog about it.

Riots, flotillas, invasions, elections, erections, convictions, afflictions...and if it gets really bad, we'll contact our congress-critters by phone and ask them to do something about it.

Now it's time to take my dogs for a jog so I can come back and blog about that.

189 iossarian  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:55:03am

re: #182 McSpiff

But when you look at the size and scope of the welfare state in the UK, if it also has a low social mobility I'm nearly to the point of saying it's not a problem that can be fixed. Social housing, much higher access to secondary learning, job centres, much higher welfare, etc.

What more can society do for these people?

The UK welfare state, though better than that in the US, is still not as supportive as some in continental Europe (Germany for example), particularly when it comes to education.

Access to education is a large factor in social mobility. So it's disheartening that the US is actively reducing access to education for its lower classes at the moment.

190 Gus  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:55:15am

re: #178 Obdicut

*steeples fingers*

Now what seems to be the problem?

/aside from AT&T sucking like a whale shark.

It logged off. The modem just shuts down. Apparently they're working on the "towers". Again. Who knows. Wireless internet sucks big time. DSL or broadband are the only way to go. 4G is a lot better and I'm on a 3G card. This also has a 5G monthly limit. Anywho. I miss my apartment and my DSL. Been a long fucking weird summer and I'm still broke as hell; had an infection on my left (subcutaneous -- think 1" carbuncle) requiring me to take some Dynapen; my hernia keeps growing; no where to go yet; car insurance running out next month and registration; hot afternoons; etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

191 Gus  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:56:06am

So basically I have my own reasons to riot but I think I'll pass.

//

192 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:56:14am

re: #173 ggt

Which is something I cannot understand. I didn't grow-up in it.

A Caste? system.


Access to the highest levels of business and government is based on being able to afford a private education, state school graduates are terribly under-represented at those levels.

And the Working Class has a strong sense of identity, too, they almost see it as betraying their heritage to move out of it. all rather odd in comparison to the US where it is all but expected that the children should do better than their parents.

193 iossarian  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:56:34am

re: #185 ggt

hmmm, I've never had that as a goal.

Maybe because your parents had a decent standard of living? I think that there are lots of people out there, though, who would quite like to get out of the reality of low-income life in the US.

194 Obdicut  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:57:06am

re: #190 Gus 802

I'm still waiting to hear from my main client about this year's schedule. I may suddenly have to find another large client, or back to an office job.

It definitely is another long hot summer.

195 Gus  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:57:20am

Hi Ice! I see you! You can upding but you can't hide!

//

196 Gus  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:57:56am

re: #194 Obdicut

I'm still waiting to hear from my main client about this year's schedule. I may suddenly have to find another large client, or back to an office job.

It definitely is another long hot summer.

Yeah. Can't wait for your GOLDEN YEARS?

//

197 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:58:03am

re: #172 Obdicut

Because it really is chump change. It really is, comparatively, a much smaller amount of economic damage.

My point is not whether it is or not a chump change, but why the comparison was brought up in the first place. It's not the facts that are the issue here.

There is a fact that the Communist regime was murderous. There is a fact that some Soviet serial killer killed a lot less people than the Soviet regime. If I'm saying "sure, this guy did kill a dozen or so people, but he was living under the regime that killed so much more people that whatever he did is a chump change compared to what the regime did", it is only fair to ask why the heck am I trying to weigh these things on a balance scale. Maybe I'm not excusing anything, but again, it's a fair thing to ask. Which is all I did.

I don't think that's a good analogy at all. It doesn't appear to have any relationship to the current situation at all.

Yes it does - the balancing of things which aren't really, eh... balanceable.

I know you think it was. I disagree. It gets tiring to me that anyone attempting to explain why, for example, petty crime is associated with poverty has to explain that this is not making an excuse for those who are poor and commit petty crimes.

It's not necessary to explain at length, a simple "I don't excuse this, and here's why this happens" is enough.

E.g. when 000G was recently trying to explain the current dark undercurrents in the Baltic countries having to do with neo-Nazism and whatnot by bringing up the Soviet repressive policies, he was very careful to state that this is in no way an apology of these things. Just to give an example.

198 darthstar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:58:13am

re: #180 ggt

I guess I don't understand what is meant by

I"m not sure too many Americans are truly concerned with it.

That's because anyone can buy an iPad - and if you have that, then you're somebody. We value ourselves based on our bling...a nice car, a big zirc in our ear, a Coach purse...get a couple of nice things, and you can mask the poverty you feel inside. Just don't tell anyone you're not satisfied...that would be unpatriotic.

199 Political Atheist  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:58:21am

At 7am this should launch on a crucial test of Prompt Global Strike. Any target on the planet in an hour or less.

Vote well when you vote for President.

200 Gus  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:58:28am

Golden years. Bleh. Right. Those days are gone if they ever even existed. The American Dream lasted 15 minutes.

201 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:58:43am

re: #193 iossarian

Maybe because your parents had a decent standard of living? I think that there are lots of people out there, though, who would quite like to get out of the reality of low-income life in the US.

Frankly, the only thing I see from my experience that keeps people in a low-income state is having too many babies or having them too early. Which is, of course, what the dominionists want.

202 McSpiff  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 6:59:15am

re: #187 Obdicut

re: #189 iossarian

Sure there are other countries that have a more comprehensive welfare state. That wasn't the point I'm trying to make. I'm also not repeating GOP talking points (jeeze, thanks Obi...). I'm using my first hand experience of knowing guys that grew up in Council Estates, had to use the social welfare system and ended up with good degrees and good jobs. No one I've talked to can point to short comings in the existing system, other than to say they must exist if chavs are rioting.

203 darthstar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:00:16am

re: #200 Gus 802

Golden years. Bleh. Right. Those days are gone if they ever even existed. The American Dream lasted 15 minutes.

Don't let me hear you say life's taking you nowhere...

Youtube Video
204 lawhawk  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:01:59am

Single mom/investment banker invigorates advertising sector with advertisement: Thanks for the Downgrade.... You should all be fired.

An investment banker and single mom from St. Louis was so pissed about the S&P downgrade that she hired a plane to buzz Wall Street with an angry message

BTW, lost in the US downgrade, followed quickly by downgrades of several insurers and Berkshire Hathaway, S&P also downgraded about 10,000 munis - from AAA to AA-. That means that thousands of municipalities around the country are now going to find it more difficult to raise bonds to do everything from capital projects to pay off older debt.

Now, one has to question why S&P waited until now to let loose with the downgrades, rather than lower those thousands of munis months or years ago - they knew or had reason to know that these weren't as safe investments as the S&P purported them to be. S&P wants its cake and eat it too. It wants the business of rating these agencies, but doesn't get any pain when it so completely misses out on the true risk for these paper.

205 Obdicut  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:02:06am

re: #196 Gus 802

Well, in a way, I'm cheating. I'm terribly concerned about my ability to make money during the next few years, but my wife's stipend as a MD/PhD student would (barely) cover the rent and I'm a workaholic so I'm sure I can find some sort of employment. Long-term, I'm going to inherit a house in San Francisco that's worth millions and my wife is going to be a doctor, so our income will be okay.

I have nothing to worry about compared to most people in the US. At all. I'm immensely privileged and know it.

But I'd really rather my main client came through with the projects, and I didn't have to upend my life. It's a selfish desire, but hey, I'm human.

206 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:03:29am

re: #199 Rightwingconspirator

The #2 reference didn't display a page.

207 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:05:19am

doggies seem to be settled in for the morning.

I think I"ll join them.

have a great day all!

208 Obdicut  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:06:27am

re: #197 Sergey Romanov

here is a fact that the Communist regime was murderous. There is a fact that some Soviet serial killer killed a lot less people than the Soviet regime. If I'm saying "sure, this guy did kill a dozen or so people, but he was living under the regime that killed so much more people that whatever he did is a chump change compared to what the regime did", it is only fair to ask why the heck am I trying to weigh these things on a balance scale.

That's also a terrible analogy, though.

There is a relationship between the economic state of the urban poor in Britain and the hyper-wealthy who have so much more relative power in the political system. There is no such relationship between the serial killer and the Communist regime.


It's not necessary to explain at length, a simple "I don't excuse this, and here's why this happens" is enough.

I think it'd be a lot easier to discuss the subject if people didn't have to say "I'm not excusing this" every time. Those right-wing morons writing about Brevick who say "I'm not excusing this" then do go on to excuse it. The excuse, or lack thereof, is in what follows, not in the platitude.

I think the default position should be that someone is not excusing the violence and looting, unless they specifically say they are, because it is such an extreme position to take.

209 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:07:58am

lightning from hell. out.

210 Gus  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:08:23am

re: #199 Rightwingconspirator

At 7am this should launch on a crucial test of Prompt Global Strike. Any target on the planet in an hour or less.

Vote well when you vote for President.

"What does this button do?"

//

211 Obdicut  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:09:26am

re: #202 McSpiff
I'm using my first hand experience of knowing guys that grew up in Council Estates, had to use the social welfare system and ended up with good degrees and good jobs. No one I've talked to can point to short comings in the existing system, other than to say they must exist if chavs are rioting.

Well, talk to more people , then. I don't know what to say. Even most of the stories on the riots have talked about some of the problems.

Like, for example, this:

[Link: chronicle.com...]


In a move that drew new rounds of violent protests by students, British lawmakers on Thursday approved a contentious bill to allow universities in England to increase undergraduate tuition to as much as £9,000 a year—or more than $14,000— from the current rate of £3,290.

Now, that's taking place as part of the current crisis, but have you seriously never heard a Brit talk negatively about Thatcherism?

212 lawhawk  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:11:13am

Taliban who claimed to have knocked down chopper carrying SEAL Team 6 members found out that they didn't have much time to gloat.

A US kinetic action eliminated that batch of Taliban.

"The strike killed Taliban leader Mullah Mohibullah and the insurgent who fired the shot associated with the Aug. 6 downing of the CH-47 helicopter, which resulted in the deaths of 38 Afghan and coalition service members," the NATO-led International Security Assistance Force said in a statement.

Get the latest on this story from breakingnews.com

The statement did not say explicitly that the Taliban fighters had shot the helicopter down, although it was the clearest indication yet that was the likely cause.

The top U.S. commander in Afghanistan also announced the same news.

"We dealt with them in a kinetic strike," General John Allen, the commander of U.S. and NATO forces in Afghanistan, told reporters at the Pentagon.

213 Winny Spencer  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:11:59am

Bring out the water cannons already, Cameron.

214 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:12:06am

The usual suspects (EDL, Free Republic, etc.) are doing their best to spin the British riots into their "black people behaving badly" meme, despite the notably multi-ethnic appearance of the mobs and the fact that it is happening in a different country.
This meme is huge in the tea party hinterland, though seldom discussed directly in the media. That doesn't keep Drudge, Limbaugh, and others from reinforcing it whenever possible, but it is understandably below the attention threshold of most national media. In that respect, it resembles the extreme brand of Christian activism espoused by people like Michelle Bachmann, which has grown into a pervasive sub-culture almost without notice.

215 Gus  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:12:15am

Too many people. Too much greed. Not enough jobs. Too much criminal culture. Too many wars...

216 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:13:19am

re: #192 ralphieboy

Access to the highest levels of business and government is based on being able to afford a private education, state school graduates are terribly under-represented at those levels.

And the Working Class has a strong sense of identity, too, they almost see it as betraying their heritage to move out of it. all rather odd in comparison to the US where it is all but expected that the children should do better than their parents.

Monty Python episodes arte 40 years old, but they still show a general idea of the social divides in English society. It is blurred a bit, but I think to a degree it's still accurate. And a lot of their humor is pointing out and laughing at the various class stereotypes.

217 lawhawk  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:14:55am

re: #210 Gus 802

Youtube Video
218 Gus  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:15:25am

re: #216 oaktree

Monty Python episodes arte 40 years old, but they still show a general idea of the social divides in English society. It is blurred a bit, but I think to a degree it's still accurate. And a lot of their humor is pointing out and laughing at the various class stereotypes.

Lucky for us in America. We don't have any social divides and class privileges. We are all equal.

//

219 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:16:31am

re: #208 Obdicut

That's also a terrible analogy, though.

There is a relationship between the economic state of the urban poor in Britain and the hyper-wealthy who have so much more relative power in the political system. There is no such relationship between the serial killer and the Communist regime.

Oh no, it's a great one. Whether or not there is a relationship is not the issue. The relationship you write about does not explain the rhetorical "chump change" comparison, where the wrongdoings (and not the wealth itself) of the guys in suits are compared to the wrongdoings of the rioters without a causal link between them offered in the comparison itself. The analogy stands.

220 iossarian  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:17:16am

re: #218 Gus 802

Lucky for us in America. We don't have any social divides and class privileges. We are all equal.

//

Yup, no underclasses with a strong sense of identity, who view people moving up and out ambiguously at best, and negatively at worst.

No sirree bob.

221 iossarian  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:18:27am

re: #219 Sergey Romanov

Oh no, it's a great one. Whether or not there is a relationship is not the issue. The relationship you write about does not explain the rhetorical "chump change" comparison, where the wrongdoings (and not the wealth itself) of the guys in suits are compared to the wrongdoings of the rioters without a causal link between them offered in the comparison itself. The analogy stands.

I thought you said that the causal link was a truism which didn't need to be repeated at this point?

At least get your talking points straight.

222 McSpiff  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:19:25am

re: #211 Obdicut

You're talking about people who weren't even alive when Thatcher was in power. I'm not talking about people who got their degree in the 60's under the height of the welfare system. I mean in the last year or two.

Using the tuition raise as an example also shows that you might not be as informed on what's going on as you think. The increases are means-tested. So they'll have a large impact on the middle class, while those who are currently rioting would likely qualify for enough government assistance to take them through their degree.

You're right in one sense, the rioters have nothing to lose. If they get arrested, they'll do a couple years in prison, go back to the same council housing, get the same benefits and generally return to the same life they had before. If they don't get arrested, they have a new TV. They haven't hit rock bottom, society just hasn't been able to figure out a meaningful way to punish these people.

Put another way, the riots were being organized via Blackberry messenger. These poor and destitute have smart phones. We aren't talking about bread riots in Egypt here.

223 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:19:35am

re: #173 ggt

Which is something I cannot understand. I didn't grow-up in it.

A Caste? system.

Sure you did. But America, via Hollywood, still presents a fantasy of real upward mobility to the world. Reality is different. We are born in a class and most of us will die in our class. Of the rest more will become poorer than richer.

Perhaps in the past it was different, but in the modern US, there are three ways to actually go up in social class: entertainment (music/acting/politics), entertainment (athletic spectacles), or invent something everyone wants and be smart enough to sell out before Apple/Google/Microsoft copy it.

224 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:19:41am

re: #218 Gus 802

Lucky for us in America. We don't have any social divides and class privileges. We are all equal.

//

Heh. We just claim there aren't any. But we have our "nobility", it's just referred to as "old money" or "new money" in certain circles.

Two generations back my family was working in the western PA coal fields. Of seven children my father was the only one they scraped together enough money to send to college. He raised a set of children that were expected to attend college and be at least middle class. I've been exposed to enough "upper class" (or even upper middle class) society to know that I feel very uncomfortable in it. I don't know the right people, and was not trained in the right things.

Therefore, I do so why there are some pressures to not try to break into a different "class". Not to mention the fact that there are pressures attempting to keep you pulled down from within - the whole concept of "uppity".

225 jamesfirecat  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:20:12am

re: #220 iossarian

Yup, no underclasses with a strong sense of identity, who view people moving up and out ambiguously at best, and negatively at worst.

No sirree bob.

It's all crabucket is what it is....

(Things you learn from reading Terry Pratchett...)

226 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:20:32am

re: #221 iossarian

I thought you said that the causal link was a truism which didn't need to be repeated at this point?

At least get your talking points straight.

Um, no, I said no such thing. What you "think" I said is quite irrelevant.

227 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:20:49am

Dow -386

228 Obdicut  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:20:55am

re: #219 Sergey Romanov

Oh no, it's a great one. Whether or not there is a relationship is not the issue. The relationship you write about does not explain the rhetorical "chump change" comparison, where the wrongdoings (and not the wealth itself) of the guys in suits are compared to the wrongdoings of the rioters without a causal link between them offered in the comparison itself. The analogy stands.

If you like. The analogy seems terrible to me. If you're content with it, then you successfully communicated with yourself, but not with me.

That the causal link wasn't mentioned doesn't remove the fact that there is a causal link.

You can keep asking people who are talking about the roots of the problem, or talking about the problem caused by the moneyed class if they're excusing the rioters. I don't think you'll ever get any interesting answer from doing so.

229 Gus  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:21:43am

re: #227 Killgore Trout

Dow -386

So seriously. What now? I haven't looked at Bloomberg yet.

230 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:22:23am

re: #222 McSpiff

society just hasn't been able to figure out a meaningful way to punish these people.

Sell their labor force to China?

231 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:22:29am

re: #190 Gus 802

Our ATT DSL is as bad. Roughly a dozen times a day, the link is dropped for up to 5 minutes. About 6 times a week its for 15 minutes to a half an hour.

"But sir, there is nothing wrong with your connection."

I'd almost rather go back to 56k dialup. At least you can listen to the whale-song when your connection gets dropped.

232 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:22:38am

re: #228 Obdicut

If you like. The analogy seems terrible to me. If you're content with it, then you successfully communicated with yourself, but not with me.

That the causal link wasn't mentioned doesn't remove the fact that there is a causal link.

But there's the rub. Your criticism would be correct if I didn't merely ask for a clarification, but instead began to make conclusions about what Ralphieboy wrote.

233 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:23:49am

New CNN Poll: Majority want tax increase for wealthy and deep spending cuts

According to the poll, 63 percent say the super committee should call for increased taxes on higher-income Americans and businesses, with 36 percent disagreeing. And by a 57 to 40 percent margin they say the committee's deficit reduction proposal should include major cuts in domestic spending.

But cuts in defense spending get a mixed review: Forty-seven percent would like the committee to include major cuts in military spending, with 53 percent saying no to such cuts.

Nearly two-thirds say no to major changes to Social Security and Medicare. And nearly nine in ten don't want any increase in taxes on middle class and lower income Americans.

234 iossarian  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:23:59am

re: #226 Sergey Romanov

Um, no, I said no such thing. What you "think" I said is quite irrelevant.

Here's what I "think" you said:

The relationship you write about does not explain the rhetorical "chump change" comparison, where the wrongdoings (and not the wealth itself) of the guys in suits are compared to the wrongdoings of the rioters without a causal link between them offered in the comparison itself.

re: #162 Sergey Romanov

I'm explaining that, if you disenfranchise huge swathes of the population, you're going to get rioting.

That's a truism at this point. I don't know why people need to repeat it that often.

235 iossarian  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:24:23am

re: #230 000G

Sell their labor force to China?

That'll learn'em.

And build more prisons.

236 Gus  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:24:26am

re: #231 wlewisiii

Our ATT DSL is as bad. Roughly a dozen times a day, the link is dropped for up to 5 minutes. About 6 times a week its for 15 minutes to a half an hour.

"But sir, there is nothing wrong with your connection."

I'd almost rather go back to 56k dialup. At least you can listen to the whale-song when your connection gets dropped.

My Earthlink was almost perfect for years. Then one day... After that I was getting blackouts once a month. Nothing daily though which was good. Then I had to call their useless call center only to find out the obvious.

237 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:24:26am

re: #229 Gus 802

So seriously. What now? I haven't looked at Bloomberg yet.

I think it's just volatility. It'll bounce around like crazy today.

238 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:25:17am

re: #234 iossarian

Here's what I "think" you said:

re: #162 Sergey Romanov

That's a truism at this point. I don't know why people need to repeat it that often.

You quoted two barely related statements. What do you expect me to say?

239 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:25:46am

My tea party ex-friend has fallen completely for the "black people behaving badly" meme. He hangs on Drudge's every report along that line, completely oblivious to the practice of cherry-picking suitable incidents from the vast array of daily crime in such a large country. He is convinced somehow that this is all a recent development and it is tied to Obama's election. He doesn't actually say they are getting "uppity" but he might as well. He does say Obama has made them a lot bolder.
Actual police and reporters I know, needless to say, scoff at this and call it utter bullshit. There were criminals under previous previous administrations, including rioting mobs, and there are criminals today.
I predict that "black people behaving badly" will be the most successful dog-whistle campaign in history next year, the unspoken sub-text of the whole GOP effort.

240 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:26:14am

re: #235 iossarian

And build more prisons.

I recently got told by an English professor that in the US they figure out the number of prisons to build in the future from the reading test results in school today.

241 Gus  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:26:29am

re: #233 Killgore Trout

New CNN Poll: Majority want tax increase for wealthy and deep spending cuts

There ya' go. But you do realize who would have to compromise on "deep spending cuts". Unless we're all finally game for deep spending cuts at the Pentagon. Lots of other sacred cows out there. Otherwise, we're only looking at fixing half the problem. If we're going to pay attention to the questionable S&P.

242 McSpiff  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:26:35am

re: #235 iossarian

That'll learn'em.

And build more prisons.

If you arrest a few thousand people for rioting, looting,murder and arson; what else can you do other than send them to prison? What's plan B? These riots happened. These people committed very real crime. Let them go home with an apology that society is very, very sorry that they aren't rich?

243 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:26:44am

Very sad....
Birmingham riots: three men killed 'protecting homes'

A murder investigation has been launched after three people were killed “doing the job of the police” during widespread rioting.
244 Gus  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:27:19am

Cameron's Katrina?

245 iossarian  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:27:46am

re: #238 Sergey Romanov

You quoted two barely related statements. What do you expect me to say?

In one statement, you're saying that it's bad to compare the wrongdoings of rich people exploiting society with the wrongdoings of poor people reacting to that exploitation without pointing out a causal link.

In the other statement, you're saying that the causal link between people being disenfranchised in society and their wrongdoings is a "truism" and doesn't need to be repeated quite so often.

I don't really know what I expect you to say at this point. Probably that the rioters are bad, can't be excused, and should be locked up.

246 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:27:57am

BBL.

247 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:28:32am

re: #239 Shiplord Kirel

My tea party ex-friend has fallen completely for the "black people behaving badly" meme. He hangs on Drudge's every report along that line, completely oblivious to the practice of cherry-picking suitable incidents from the vast array of daily crime in such a large country. He is convinced somehow that this is all a recent development and it is tied to Obama's election. He doesn't actually say they are getting "uppity" but he might as well. He does say Obama has made them a lot bolder.
Actual police and reporters I know, needless to say, scoff at this and call it utter bullshit. There were criminals under previous previous administrations, including rioting mobs, and there are criminals today.
I predict that "black people behaving badly" will be the most successful dog-whistle campaign in history next year, the unspoken sub-text of the whole GOP effort.

And CNN had a couple of Congress critters from the Black Caucus on this morning complaining that Obama is not doing enough to help the black unemployment numbers.

248 iossarian  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:28:35am

re: #243 Killgore Trout

Very sad...
Birmingham riots: three men killed 'protecting homes'

Yup. British Asians apparently, coming out of a mosque. Haven't seen anything about the accused yet (not sure they even have him, though they do have the car).

249 McSpiff  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:28:35am

re: #245 iossarian

Can they be excused?

250 Gus  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:28:36am

There's been riots in Chile as well. Plus 1000s are being slaughtered in Syria.

251 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:30:00am

re: #224 oaktree

my family much the same: grandparents came over from europe, found work wherever they could. parents managed a high-school education, dad got regular work at the steel mill.

all of us kids attended college or married colege grads and became middle class, one brother made it big in business, retired a millionaire, one sister married a major muckety much with dow chemicals and also retiired wealthy.

there is some upward mobility possible in britain, but it is alot more restricted than in the US. They used to have an emprie where any young, enterprising upstart could go off and make a fortune to come home and retire on, but those days have all but faded.

252 McSpiff  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:30:17am

re: #250 Gus 802

There's been riots in Chile as well. Plus 1000s are being slaughtered in Syria.

I had to laugh at the Very Serious way it was discussed that rubber bullets have never been used by British police forces. Northern Ireland is finally free of Britain and all it took was riots in London!

253 iossarian  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:30:40am

re: #249 McSpiff

Can they be excused?

I don't really care whether they can be excused or not. Probably the justice system can take care of that part.

What I care about is making the justice system more fair, so that people get locked up for "anti-social" behavior regardless of their income level and social background.

254 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:30:50am

re: #240 000G

Correction:

The discouraging outlook for low-performing students is reflected in the high incidence of reading difficulties among the prison population. Some states even estimate future prison populations based on third-grade reading scores. Thus not only do reading problems affect students, but they also have a host of negative effects on the economy: the average cost to educate a child in Connecticut is close to $11,000 annually while the average cost to house an inmate here is about $28,000.

[Link: www.haskins.yale.edu...]

255 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:31:00am

re: #219 Sergey Romanov


In Soviet Russia, chump changes you!

256 iossarian  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:32:07am

re: #251 ralphieboy


there is some upward mobility possible in britain, but it is alot more restricted than in the US.

With respect, I don't believe this is true. But I would be happy to see figures showing that it is, since after all, that's what the US is meant to be about.

257 Bulworth  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:32:11am

Anybody else having issues with the Page function today? It isn't letting me create a page and within the "Featured Pages" I can't see the various shortcuts like Bold, Italics and so forth, that I can see for this post above.

258 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:32:12am

re: #250 Gus 802

There's been riots in Chile as well. Plus 1000s are being slaughtered in Syria.

So we will quickly get into the nuances of the different sorts of riots/protests. Syria as compared to Egypt, UK, or elsewhere.

Probably all they have in common is that folk are feeling heavily unrepresented and/or repressed, and that there are opportunists that will take advantage of the situation to loot or otherwise gain for themselves.

259 Gus  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:32:21am

re: #254 000G

Correction:

[Link: www.haskins.yale.edu...]

11 grand. Lovely isn't it? We have some strange priorities in this country though.

260 Obdicut  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:33:17am

re: #222 McSpiff

You're talking about people who weren't even alive when Thatcher was in power.

No, I'm not. I mean, factually that's simply incorrect unless all the rioters are under 20. It's also kind of bizarre to think Thatcherism didn't continue under Major, or didn't have long-term effects.

The increases are means-tested. So they'll have a large impact on the middle class, while those who are currently rioting would likely qualify for enough government assistance to take them through their degree.

It's actually a combination of means-tested direct grants and loans, not just direct assistance. And yes, the absolute poorest will actually be somewhat better off under the new system. But those in the upper-lower and lower-middle class may very well be worse off. The fees are increasing; that's a flat truth.

If they don't get arrested, they have a new TV. They haven't hit rock bottom, society just hasn't been able to figure out a meaningful way to punish these people.

Ah, so you think that punishing them is the solution. Great. Yeah, that'll work.

261 McSpiff  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:33:30am

re: #253 iossarian

I don't really care whether they can be excused or not. Probably the justice system can take care of that part.

What I care about is making the justice system more fair, so that people get locked up for "anti-social" behavior regardless of their income level and social background.

I agree 100%. When the bankers start throwing rocks at police and torching homes, I too will demand they receive the same punishment.

262 Obdicut  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:34:03am

re: #232 Sergey Romanov

But there's the rub. Your criticism would be correct if I didn't merely ask for a clarification, but instead began to make conclusions about what Ralphieboy wrote.

My point is that it wastes time and derails the discussion into a sub-category of at what point explanation merges with excuse-making, which personally makes my eyes glaze over instantly.

263 McSpiff  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:34:41am

re: #260 Obdicut

Right, you aren't excusing the rioters. You just don't want to see them punished. How very socially aware and noble of you.

264 iossarian  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:35:01am

re: #261 McSpiff

I agree 100%. When the bankers start throwing rocks at police and torching homes, I too will demand they receive the same punishment.

Quoted without further comment.

265 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:35:05am

re: #245 iossarian

In one statement, you're saying that it's bad to compare the wrongdoings of rich people exploiting society with the wrongdoings of poor people reacting to that exploitation without pointing out a causal link.

In the other statement, you're saying that the causal link between people being disenfranchised in society and their wrongdoings is a "truism" and doesn't need to be repeated quite so often.

I don't really know what I expect you to say at this point. Probably that the rioters are bad, can't be excused, and should be locked up.

> In one statement, you're saying that it's bad to compare the wrongdoings of rich people exploiting society with the wrongdoings of poor people reacting to that exploitation without pointing out a causal link.

I'm not saying such a thing, of course, so that's another point that whooshed right past you.

I'm saying that uncontextualized comparison out of the blue reminds me very much of an excuse (though it's not necessarily such), not that it's always bad to compare such wrongdoings under any circumstances and in any context.

> In the other statement, you're saying that the causal link between people being disenfranchised in society and their wrongdoings is a "truism" and doesn't need to be repeated quite so often.

Sure. I don't see where these intersect, as you apparently think they do.

The causal link in the second statement (people disenfranchised by the society and the state will riot) is not the same as the assumed causal link in the first statement (there is a relationship between how much the upper classes loot and how much the rioters loot).

266 jamesfirecat  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:35:39am

re: #261 McSpiff

I agree 100%. When the bankers start throwing rocks at police and torching homes, I too will demand they receive the same punishment.

One could argue what some Bankers did to our countries economy is even more anti-social than hurling rocks at the police.

267 Gus  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:35:47am

re: #258 oaktree

So we will quickly get into the nuances of the different sorts of riots/protests. Syria as compared to Egypt, UK, or elsewhere.

Probably all they have in common is that folk are feeling heavily unrepresented and/or repressed, and that there are opportunists that will take advantage of the situation to loot or otherwise gain for themselves.

I wasn't comparing. Just a quick report. One could compare I suppose.

268 McSpiff  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:37:14am

re: #266 jamesfirecat

One could argue what some Bankers did to our countries economy is even more anti-social than hurling rocks at the police.

Well, don't keep me hanging. Make the points.

269 Obdicut  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:37:27am

re: #263 McSpiff

Right, you aren't excusing the rioters. You just don't want to see them punished. How very socially aware and noble of you.

I don't feel you're looking for an actual conversation at this point.

I don't think punishment does jack shit to prevent stuff like this from happening, unless taken to a very ludicrous extreme-- which then causes more problems. We punish the living fuck out of dealing in crack cocaine; it has not done a whit of good in reducing the amount of crack cocaine use.

We punish the god-almighty out of murder, and yet we have an insanely high murder rate.

I don't think that the youths going out are looking up the various sentences they could receive before doing these riots. I don't think they care.

And yes, I'd rather see them rehabilitated than punished. Why that is comical to you, I have no idea.

270 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:37:57am

re: #263 McSpiff

Right, you aren't excusing the rioters. You just don't want to see them punished. How very socially aware and noble of you.

Obdi, of all people, is not excusing the rioters.

271 Gus  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:37:57am

Maybe the USA can invade London. First step would be to drop palettes of cash for the war lords gang leaders there.

//

272 iossarian  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:38:08am

re: #265 Sergey Romanov


The causal link in the second statement (people disenfranchised by the society and the state will riot) is not the same as the assumed causal link in the first statement (there is a relationship between how much the upper classes loot and how much the rioters loot).

See, that's where we disagree. The whole point, for me, is that the upper class looting, which goes largely unpunished, is part and parcel of the disenfranchisement of the rioters.

Rich people find ways to squeeze money out of society -> poor people are disenfranchised -> they riot.

273 iossarian  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:39:19am

re: #271 Gus 802

Maybe the USA can invade London. First step would be to drop palettes of cash for the war lords gang leaders there.

//

Step 2, find an ineffectual and polarizing "leader" to back.

I nominate Boris Johnson.

274 Atlas Fails  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:39:26am

re: #239 Shiplord Kirel

My tea party ex-friend has fallen completely for the "black people behaving badly" meme. He hangs on Drudge's every report along that line, completely oblivious to the practice of cherry-picking suitable incidents from the vast array of daily crime in such a large country. He is convinced somehow that this is all a recent development and it is tied to Obama's election. He doesn't actually say they are getting "uppity" but he might as well. He does say Obama has made them a lot bolder.
Actual police and reporters I know, needless to say, scoff at this and call it utter bullshit. There were criminals under previous previous administrations, including rioting mobs, and there are criminals today.
I predict that "black people behaving badly" will be the most successful dog-whistle campaign in history next year, the unspoken sub-text of the whole GOP effort.

Their racism became obvious to me when they started pushing the "angry black man" meme about Obama. WTF? You couldn't ask for a less racially radical or divisive politician. He was raised primarily by his white grandparents for God's sake. And unlike a certain black Republican, he has never played the race card, even when he would have been justified in doing so. It became clear that the teabaggers hated him for not knowing his place. They only like "good" blacks like Herman Cain, who remind them that they're not racist and tell them what they want to hear.

275 Gus  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:40:10am

Upper class looters: ENRON; Silverado Savings and Loan; Bear Stearns; Goldman Sachs; Bernie Madoff...

//

276 Obdicut  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:40:12am

re: #273 iossarian

Step 2, find an ineffectual and polarizing "leader" to back.

I nominate Boris Johnson.

He has the side benefit of being absolutely hilariously bad at PR.

277 sattv4u2  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:40:23am

re: #237 Killgore Trout

I think it's just volatility. It'll bounce around like crazy today.

I don't think so

What I do think will happen is for the rest of today the slide will slow down some, then tomorrow and Friday will keep going down but at a very slow rate

Come Monday, the bargain hunters will come out on force and the market will make gains through the week (contingent on nothing traumatic happening over the weekend)

278 jamesfirecat  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:41:12am

re: #268 McSpiff

Well, don't keep me hanging. Make the points.

How about the recent story from the Daily Show where a bank "foreclosed" on a group of people who not only didn't have a mortgage with that bank, they didn't have a mortgage at all?

Luckily the story has a happy ending for the people who owned the home....

[Link: www.digtriad.com...]

279 Gus  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:41:56am

AT&T... Base to Earth. Testing. Major Tom to ground control.

There. Working again. Whew.

280 RadicalModerate  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:41:57am

re: #261 McSpiff

I agree 100%. When the bankers start throwing rocks at police and torching homes, I too will demand they receive the same punishment.

Which is why the CEO who steals millions from people gets maybe two years at Club Fed while the inner city individual who burglarized the local liquor store gets twenty years to life.

281 sattv4u2  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:42:20am

re: #279 Gus 802

AT&T... Base to Earth. Testing. Major Tom to ground control.

There. Working again. Whew.

Finally paid your bill, huh?
/

282 Slap  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:43:37am

re: #239 Shiplord Kirel

Just popping in for a sec.

You may have hit a nail on the head here. Yesterday, I glanced at this story about flash mobs in the sacbee yesterday, and I was more than a little taken aback by the breadth and detail of that meme that shows up in the comments. I've been sick and avoiding the news, but this vicious thrust of ugly links and even uglier mindsets surprised me. Not because of the ugliness of it -- sadly, such ugliness is only surprising to those who are in a vegetative state -- it's that it seemed to just explode as a fully-developed concept in a local comments page.

See for yourself.

Your observation now makes me realize it's possibly even uglier than it looks like on the surface.

Me, I'm going to go put something on the stereo and try and think about other things.

283 McSpiff  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:45:52am

re: #280 RadicalModerate

Which is why the CEO who steals millions from people gets maybe two years at Club Fed while the inner city individual who burglarized the local liquor store gets twenty years to life.

You'll find very few sentences that long in the UK justice system.

284 Obdicut  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:46:30am

re: #278 jamesfirecat

Ah, but you see, foreclosing without adequately checking the paperwork first is a policy of the banks doesn't make for good pictures of a burning building, so it's hard to get people to pay attention to it.

Maybe if the bankers wore masks, it'd be easier to draw attention to the criminality of it.

285 Gus  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:46:49am

re: #280 RadicalModerate

Which is why the CEO who steals millions from people gets maybe two years at Club Fed while the inner city individual who burglarized the local liquor store gets twenty years to life.

In the USA. More money has been stolen with the tip of a pen than all the money taken with the barrel of a gun.

286 Atlas Fails  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:47:03am

WAAAHHH!!!

287 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:47:47am

Rioters and looters are common criminals. They should be locked up or beaten down until they stop. People are expected to obey the law, especially the prohibitions on violence, whatever their circumstances. Otherwise civilization cannot exist.
None of that, however, relieves us of the responsibility for taking a hard look at the social, cultural, and economic conditions that fuel these outbreaks. That there are such conditions goes without saying, you don't see middle class white people rioting, let alone the rich (except after certain athletic contests or during spring break.)
It is the rioters' they are rioting and looting, and they should pay, but they are not the only ones at fault.

288 Gus  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:48:17am

I still think it's hilarious though to see the working class Teabaggers come to the defense of the upper class.

289 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:48:23am

re: #282 Slap

Just popping in for a sec.

You may have hit a nail on the head here. Yesterday, I glanced at this story about flash mobs in the sacbee yesterday, and I was more than a little taken aback by the breadth and detail of that meme that shows up in the comments. I've been sick and avoiding the news, but this vicious thrust of ugly links and even uglier mindsets surprised me. Not because of the ugliness of it -- sadly, such ugliness is only surprising to those who are in a vegetative state -- it's that it seemed to just explode as a fully-developed concept in a local comments page.

See for yourself.

Your observation now makes me realize it's possibly even uglier than it looks like on the surface.

Me, I'm going to go put something on the stereo and try and think about other things.

The interesting thing I'm seeing is how the term and behavior of a "flash mob" has been converted into a totally (or near totally) evil activity. Dig back in the internet a bit and you see groups of people doing it in a relatively benign manner as a sort of performance art. Such as dressing in the right color of blue shirt and descending on a Best Buy in large numbers.

On the flip side I get to read the local papers with Mayor Nutter in Philadelphia railing on how the same technique (generally) is being used by youths to gather and carry out assaults, minor riots, and/or looting. Thus the reason Philadelphia has a youth curfew in effect, with threats of a bigger crackdown on the way.

Thus, we see how the technology is neutral in scope. It can be used for both good or evil activities.

290 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:48:45am

re: #286 Atlas Fails

WAAAHHH!!!

"via Weasel Zippers"

high honors indeed

291 Gus  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:49:16am

re: #284 Obdicut

Ah, but you see, foreclosing without adequately checking the paperwork first is a policy of the banks doesn't make for good pictures of a burning building, so it's hard to get people to pay attention to it.

Maybe if the bankers wore masks, it'd be easier to draw attention to the criminality of it.

Short of masks perhaps sinister looking mustaches and top hats.

//

292 Gus  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:49:48am

re: #290 000G

"via Weasel Zippers"

high honors indeed

[vomit]

293 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:50:26am

re: #287 Shiplord Kirel

Rioters and looters are common criminals. They should be locked up or beaten down until they stop. People are expected to obey the law, especially the prohibitions on violence, whatever their circumstances. Otherwise civilization cannot exist.
None of that, however, relieves us of the responsibility for taking a hard look at the social, cultural, and economic conditions that fuel these outbreaks. That there are such conditions goes without saying, you don't see middle class white people rioting, let alone the rich (except after certain athletic contests or during spring break.)
It is the rioters' they are rioting and looting, and they should pay, but they are not the only ones at fault.

My belief is that a major reason for creating and supporting a social safety net is to protect society. If your policies create a class or large group who feel they have nothing to lose in rioting - you will get riots.

294 McSpiff  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:50:36am

re: #283 McSpiff

You'll find very few sentences that long in the UK justice system.

Hell, I'll be nice and even do the research for you. The crown sentencing guideline for robbing a small business states:

Sentencing Advisory Council: Robberies of small businesses
Less sophisticated commercial robberies

...

Type/nature of activity: A weapon is produced and used to threaten, and/or force is used which results in injury to the victim

Starting point Adult: 4 years
Range Adult: 2 to 7 years
Starting point Youth: 3 years detention
Range Youth: 1 to 6 years detention

And most in the UK won't serve a full sentence. Two years for robbing a liquor store would be average. Plus the UK doesn't have the same restrictions on felons. So, they receive the same sentence in most cases.

295 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:51:14am

re: #288 Gus 802

I still think it's hilarious though to see the working class Teabaggers come to the defense of the upper class.


It is one of the oldest tricks in the book: the British Empire has always had its lowest classes in the front lines, proudly dying for the privileges of the upper class.

American slave holders did it with poor whites in the south as well. The Confederate Draft Act provided an exemption for any man who owned more than 20 slaves...

296 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:51:20am

Crazy lady tackles the important issues.....
Bachmann Promises No Teleprompters, Czars or Apologizing

297 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:51:31am

re: #291 Gus 802

Short of masks perhaps sinister looking mustaches and top hats.

//

That explains "Bank Error in Your Favor" for the Monopoly guy. He has the top hat and mustache. Since they're white/gray he is probably a retired banker.
//

298 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:51:52am

re: #280 RadicalModerate

Which is why the CEO who steals millions from people gets maybe two years at Club Fed while the inner city individual who burglarized the local liquor store gets twenty years to life.

The CEO would still steal the whole store, put the mom and pop owners on welfare, and get, not a jail sentence, but the congratulations and thanks of his fellow looters.

299 iossarian  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:52:39am

re: #295 ralphieboy

It is one of the oldest tricks in the book: the British Empire has always had its lowest classes in the front lines, proudly dying for the privileges of the upper class.

This is largely true but with certain major exceptions, most notably the first world war.

300 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:53:28am

-432

301 Lidane  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:53:35am

re: #296 Killgore Trout

Crazy lady tackles the important issues...
Bachmann Promises No Teleprompters, Czars or Apologizing

The teleprompter meme is one of the stupidest things ever. Reagan used teleprompters, for fuck's sake.

302 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:54:04am

re: #293 oaktree

My belief is that a major reason for creating and supporting a social safety net is to protect society. If your policies create a class or large group who feel they have nothing to lose in rioting - you will get riots.

My belief is that a major reason for bailing out insolvent banks is to protect the economy. if you create a class or a large group who have nothing to lose in ruining companies - you will get economic chaos

303 McSpiff  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:54:09am

re: #287 Shiplord Kirel

Rioters and looters are common criminals. They should be locked up or beaten down until they stop. People are expected to obey the law, especially the prohibitions on violence, whatever their circumstances. Otherwise civilization cannot exist.
None of that, however, relieves us of the responsibility for taking a hard look at the social, cultural, and economic conditions that fuel these outbreaks. That there are such conditions goes without saying, you don't see middle class white people rioting, let alone the rich (except after certain athletic contests or during spring break.)
It is the rioters' they are rioting and looting, and they should pay, but they are not the only ones at fault.

QFT.

304 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:54:50am

re: #272 iossarian

See, that's where we disagree. The whole point, for me, is that the upper class looting, which goes largely unpunished, is part and parcel of the disenfranchisement of the rioters.

It's not that we disagree. It's that these are still different things, although one _may_ be part of another/they may intersect. Your point is that I was self-contradictory, and I wasn't, and that is even if I actually agree with you on this point.

When I see the verbal disconnect in the "chump change" comparison (the lack of the causal link), the fact that I acknowledged "dis-t -> riots" as a truism is quite irrelevant - I have no idea whether there is _supposed_ to be a causal link there at all, or whether the comparison was _intended_ as an excuse. It could be one or another. Which is why I asked in the first place.

305 Slap  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:55:02am

In case anyone is wondering about my choice of therapy, Crystal Silence is slowly working its magic.

Here's what I mean....

Youtube Video

Maybe I'll drop back in later....

306 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:56:11am

re: #293 oaktree

My belief is that a major reason for creating and supporting a social safety net is to protect society. If your policies create a class or large group who feel they have nothing to lose in rioting - you will get riots.

Exactly. The tea partiers and dominionists will never understand that we don't do this out of the goodness of our own hearts or soft-headed liberalism. FDR very probably headed off a totalitarian revolution with the New Deal, and he knew it.
Many welfare kids do indeed become criminals. Many others, though, become doctors and scientists who would either be illiterate or too stunted from hunger to study if their parents hadn't received various "giveaways."

307 Gus  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:56:15am

re: #298 Shiplord Kirel

The CEO would still steal the whole store, put the mom and pop owners on welfare, and get, not a jail sentence, but the congratulations and thanks of his fellow looters.

Of course. "Greed is good" was celebrated in this country. It still is. "Gordon Gekko" was admired by many people even the very same lower classes that are affected by economic injustices perpetrated by the likes of greed. Hostile corporate take-overs were and still are the rage with many business leaders. A lot of people entered business school to be just like the proverbial "Gordon Gekko". One could ask, "when does a heightened level of greed become a form of criminality"? Many times there are no codified laws but they become breaches of common morality and ethics. Yet, some of this behavior is now celebrated in churches across America. There's a reason why we have "Free Market Jesus".

308 Slap  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:58:18am

Well, that didn't work right.

Senor Mouse -- Live 1978

309 McSpiff  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:58:27am

re: #269 Obdicut

I don't feel you're looking for an actual conversation at this point.

I don't think punishment does jack shit to prevent stuff like this from happening, unless taken to a very ludicrous extreme-- which then causes more problems. We punish the living fuck out of dealing in crack cocaine; it has not done a whit of good in reducing the amount of crack cocaine use.

We punish the god-almighty out of murder, and yet we have an insanely high murder rate.

I don't think that the youths going out are looking up the various sentences they could receive before doing these riots. I don't think they care.

And yes, I'd rather see them rehabilitated than punished. Why that is comical to you, I have no idea.

I think the problem is you're discussing two very different countries, with two very different legal systems. Yes, the American legal system absolutely overdoes punishment. 3 strikes laws are beyond insane. But that doesn't automatically mean that the UK also over-emphasizes punishment or provides enough of a deterrent.

We now have a situation where the lower class feels that can torch a city and get away with it. You either rehabilitate/teach them why that's a bad idea for everyone including themselves or you show them that no, you can't actually torch a city and get away. You support the latter, me the former.

310 Obdicut  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:58:52am

In a way, this discussion reminds me of that about the Roma in Europe.

It is absolutely true that Roma groups have a high percentage of con artists, petty thieves, and other such minor criminals. Many people in Europe use this as an excuse for their ghettoization, the removal of their camps, etc.

The roots of this behavior in the Roma, of course, is not some inherent part of Roma culture, but the legacy of centuries of persecution, lack of assimilation, ghettoization, slavery, etc.

Fixing it is not easy. The Roma don't trust the government or the authorities, since they are so often the agents of their own oppression. It's an incredibly difficult problem to solve.

Does that mean a Roma who just bilked someone out of a couple thousand should get a lighter sentence? No.

It does mean that it is a moral imperative for Europe to figure out a way to help the Roma.

311 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 7:58:59am

re: #308 Slap

Well, that didn't work right.

Senor Mouse -- Live 1978

Well, that didn't work at all.:)

312 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:02:19am

re: #310 Obdicut

The roots of this behavior in the Roma, of course, is not some inherent part of Roma culture, but the legacy of centuries of persecution, lack of assimilation, ghettoization, slavery, etc.

Isn't there a point when a reaction to persecution and the rest of the things you list _becomes_ a part of culture? And if so, how can culture be changed, if at all? Not, of course, a Roma-only question, pertains to all of us.

313 McSpiff  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:02:22am

re: #310 Obdicut

Updinged and agree, but I would say that it has in fact become a part of the Roma culture. There is an acceptance and justification of why petty crime is 'ok' that continues to get taught to each generation.

I think you've said it earlier, but parents are the big factor here. I think that goes with the UK's current situation as well. Its counter-balancing what can be the negative influence of parents that is the real issue IMO. Or in many cases, the lack of influence perhaps.

314 Obdicut  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:02:36am

re: #309 McSpiff

I think the problem is you're discussing two very different countries, with two very different legal systems. Yes, the American legal system absolutely overdoes punishment. 3 strikes laws are beyond insane. But that doesn't automatically mean that the UK also over-emphasizes punishment or provides enough of a deterrent.

I don't think punishment provides a real deterrent at all, though. Again: We have harsher sentencing laws than the UK but we have higher rates of crime, and immensely high rates of recidivism. If punishment works, why is it failing in the US so badly?

We now have a situation where the lower class feels that can torch a city and get away with it.

Do you actually mean to be making such a broad-based statement about the lower-class? I doubt it.

You either rehabilitate/teach them why that's a bad idea for everyone including themselves or you show them that no, you can't actually torch a city and get away. You support the latter, me the former.

You got latter and former mixed up, I assume. I don't think your assumption that they think they'll get away with it is correct. I think that they think that a certain percentage of them will get away with it, and some will get arrested, and like any statistical chance, humans are terrible at figuring out the odds and generally always feel they'll be part of the privileged one.

I think what you're saying is an absolutely massive oversimplification of what leads people to commit illegal acts.

315 Slap  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:02:51am

re: #311 Cannadian Club Akbar

WTF???? I copy/pasted the embed code from You Tube, and that happened? How did I fuck that up so thoroughly????

My COMPLETE apologies -- Charles/Stinky, PLEASE delete my 308.

316 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:03:36am

re: #307 Gus 802

Are you blaming an attitude towards an emotion?

317 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:04:04am

re: #315 Slap

Open the YouTube page, copy/paste the address. Makes it easier.

318 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:04:09am

re: #312 Sergey Romanov

Or to put it in a different way, what are the real-life examples of fixing the problems, short of full assimilation?

319 Gus  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:04:10am

In any event. I do not condone the rioting in London at all. They should have sit-in, block traffic, march, pull out the bullhorns, etc. Anything but burning down your own neighborhood and worse (including homicides at this point) from what I've read.

320 iossarian  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:04:38am

re: #304 Sergey Romanov

OK, I get it now, and I apologize for my annoyance with you above. I suppose I think it's unlikely that anyone would intend the "non-causal excuse" interpretation of "rich people steal from society, so poor people stealing from society is OK", which is why I didn't account for it.

321 Obdicut  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:05:58am

re: #312 Sergey Romanov

Isn't there a point when a reaction to persecution and the rest of the things you list _becomes_ a part of culture? And if so, how can culture be changed, if at all? Not, of course, a Roma-only question, pertains to all of us.

Absolutely. And they're a legitimate part of the culture, too. You can't just say "Hey, you don't need that anymore" when Italy is burning the Roma's camps and not investigating their murders.

I don't have any easy solution. It involves working with Roma leaders who are willing to talk to outsiders and yet retain credibility inside the Roma community; a very tricky prospect.

There's also the fact that, because of their disenfranchisement, the Roma culture has some terrible aspects to it, like the role of women being positively medieval. It's funny, my wife is very strong about fighting for the rights of Roma, but one of the main reason she wants it is so that the Roma will be more assimilated and the more egregiously misogynistic parts of their society will be ameliorated by enlightenment society.

I keep spelling words with repeated syllables; is there a name for that? I wrote enlightenment as enlightightenement.

322 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:05:58am

re: #301 Lidane

The teleprompter meme is one of the stupidest things ever. Reagan used teleprompters, for fuck's sake.

Her "staring into the void" everyday stare makes her look like she's reading from a faraway teleprompter--that only she can see.

323 Varek Raith  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:07:31am

re: #322 Alouette

Her "staring into the void" everyday stare makes her look like she's reading from a faraway teleprompter--that only she can see.

She has truly reached teleprompter Zen.
:)

Morning!

324 Slap  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:07:36am

re: #317 Cannadian Club Akbar

I must be rusty. That's what I tried to do in 305.

I still wonder how a You Tube embed code takes you to a dogshit location.

(I know, that insults dogshit.)

325 Gus  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:07:38am

Sort of like being pissed off at your parents and then proceeding to burn down your own house and shooting grandma.

326 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:08:06am

re: #320 iossarian

Again, I was conditioned for this (and annoyed) by things I read elsewhere which made exactly this type of comparison in a "bad" way, to excuse the rioters. So I had to make sure for myself that it wasn't happening here. I also apologize if it seemed rude or something - wasn't my intent.

327 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:08:46am

re: #324 Slap

Your 305 worked fine. 308, not so much.

328 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:08:51am

My original rant about "welfare revolutionaries", from June 4th. I think this is one of my best posts. I was furious at the blind fools who make an industry out of attacking the "welfare state" without a thought for how it came to be or why we keep it.

329 Romantic Heretic  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:08:55am

HUMANISM An exaltation of freedom, but one limited to our need to exercise it as an integral part of nature and society.

We are capable of freedom because we are capable of seeking the balance that integrates us into the world. And this equilibrium in society depends on our acceptance of doubt as a positive force. The dignity of man is thus an expression of modesty, not of superior preening and vain assertions.

These simple notions are central to the Western idea of civilization. They are clearly opposed to the narrow and mechanistic certainties of ideology; those assertions of certainty intended to hide the fear of doubt.

The Doubter's Companion - John Ralston Saul

330 iossarian  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:09:12am

re: #326 Sergey Romanov

Again, I was conditioned for this (and annoyed) by things I read elsewhere which made exactly this type of comparison in a "bad" way, to excuse the rioters. So I had to make sure for myself that it wasn't happening here. I also apologize if it seemed rude or something - wasn't my intent.

Thanks! The rough and tumble of LGF continues.

331 McSpiff  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:09:44am

re: #314 Obdicut

I did switch the two up, sorry. And Canada has a legal system that has punishment that falls somewhere between the UK and the US and I believe a lower crime rate than either. I truly believe that neither 100% punishment or 100% rehabilitation would be successful. And I think the US is close to 100% punishment with a crime rate to show for it.

No, I didn't mean to point the whole lower class with such a broad brush, you're right. Especially since they have born the brunt of the loss of property, etc. I should have narrowed that statement down to the rioters.

I disagree with an implicit assumption you're making. You're assuming that getting arrested and serving a sentence doesn't count as 'getting away with it'. For many of the rioters, I don't think that part really matters.

332 lostlakehiker  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:09:47am

re: #15 3CPO

Okay. Mitt Romney's superPAC is called "Restore Our Future." Can someone please tell me how one can restore something that doesn't exist yet?

Restore the prospects. Good grief. You had to have known that's what he meant.

As to responsibility, here's an editorial from the Brit paper, Telegraph: Hard Truths, Responsibility, and a Messenger Applauded.

333 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:10:29am

re: #325 Gus 802

Sort of like being pissed off at your parents and then proceeding to burn down your own house and shooting grandma.

Logic is not a default human strong point. And emotions and the short range view often override our own best interests.

334 sattv4u2  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:10:38am

re: #318 Sergey Romanov

Or to put it in a different way, what are the real-life examples of fixing the problems, short of full assimilation?

How about a little of both?

i.e,, Italian immigrants flooded the USA at one point (including my maternal grandparents and paternal grandfather)

They all became citizens in time,, they all worked within the system here,,, BUT,, they all maintained 'their' culture in their homes and even had their own enclaves in the city (shops, restaurants, voting in "their" rep to city councils, et al)

335 darthstar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:11:15am

re: #324 Slap

I must be rusty. That's what I tried to do in 305.

I still wonder how a You Tube embed code takes you to a dogshit location.

(I know, that insults dogshit.)

Speaking of dogshit (see? I said I'd blog about my run with the boys)...I'm bending over to pick up Banjo's pile, and Fozzie starts to kick dirt over me...WTF? Is he trying to send me a message? At least I know my day can mostly go uphill from here.

336 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:12:19am

re: #335 darthstar

I like both dogs even more now.
/

337 sattv4u2  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:12:32am

re: #335 darthstar

Speaking of dogshit (see? I said I'd blog about my run with the boys)...I'm bending over to pick up Banjo's pile, and Fozzie starts to kick dirt over me...WTF? Is he trying to send me a message? At least I know my day can mostly go uphill from here.

Maybe he thought you were keeling over dead, and was trying to bury the evidence!

338 iossarian  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:13:42am

re: #332 lostlakehiker

Restore the prospects. Good grief. You had to have known that's what he meant.

As to responsibility, here's an editorial from the Brit paper, Telegraph: Hard Truths, Responsibility, and a Messenger Applauded.

FTA:

While the perpetrators of the violence last night are of course responsible for this atrocity, that doesn’t let the rest of us off. We too are responsible for these riots because we have allowed a culture of moral relativism to rule, where anything goes, where we refuse to hold others and ourselves to account. Mark my words: if we continue to deny the part we play in this, there will only be more riots to come.

Completely agree. Lock up the Murdoch executives and the bankers, and start paying attention to the peaceful protestors. You'll see a lot less rioting.

339 Gus  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:14:20am

re: #333 oaktree

Logic is not a default human strong point. And emotions and the short range view often override our own best interests.

I know. I felt that yesterday afternoon. The same with greed, evil, etc. Immorality is a human condition if you will. Morality is there to curb it. However, evil is a natural state as much as good. That doesn't mean that people are born evil as some would have us think. Just that there is always that potential and that potential comes out quite easily with the human species. Of course now some people will say "but we weren't talking about evil". Maybe.

340 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:14:50am

re: #321 Obdicut

Absolutely. And they're a legitimate part of the culture, too. You can't just say "Hey, you don't need that anymore" when Italy is burning the Roma's camps and not investigating their murders.

I don't have any easy solution. It involves working with Roma leaders who are willing to talk to outsiders and yet retain credibility inside the Roma community; a very tricky prospect.There's also the fact that, because of their disenfranchisement, the Roma culture has some terrible aspects to it, like the role of women being positively medieval. It's funny, my wife is very strong about fighting for the rights of Roma, but one of the main reason she wants it is so that the Roma will be more assimilated and the more egregiously misogynistic parts of their society will be ameliorated by enlightenment society.

I keep spelling words with repeated syllables; is there a name for that? I wrote enlightenment as enlightightenement.

Sort of interesting how the bolded part corresponds with the solution suggested about dealing with Islamic societies and other hotspots around the globe. Build a connection with the moderates who can maintain legitimacy within their society and then build out from there.

341 McSpiff  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:16:53am

re: #321 Obdicut

The issue becomes, and I think this is a large part of the issue with the UK too, how do you maintain that link and that credibility during the integration process, while still enforcing societies laws at a point where they probably don't agree with them and are likely to view it as more persecution?

342 Varek Raith  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:17:21am

Instant coffee makers are most certainly not instant.
HURRY UP MR. COFFEE!

344 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:19:18am

re: #342 Varek Raith

Instant coffee makers are most certainly not instant.
HURRY UP MR. COFFEE!

You own a copy of 6 minute Abs, don't you?

345 Gus  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:19:59am

Quid pro quo. Tit for tat. Point counter point. Who will win today's round of "I'm the smartest man on the internet!™"

//

346 sattv4u2  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:20:10am

re: #344 Cannadian Club Akbar

You own a copy of 6 minute Abs, don't you?

Yes

I also own a treadmill

It makes a great clothes hanger!!!

347 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:20:42am

re: #345 Gus 802

Quid pro quo. Tit for tat. Point counter point. Who will win today's round of "I'm the smartest man on the internet!™"

//

A woman?
/
I forgot, there's no wimmin on the internets.

348 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:21:15am

I saw a fundy preacher declaring that the British rioters "need Jesus." Setting aside that the Big J was himself initially arrested for rioting in the Temple, it really depends on which Christian sect brings the message. Certain Christian groups and leaders have indeed done a lot to mitigate suffering and encourage people to behave responsibly. AFA and Rick Perry's buddy David Barton are not among these however. If rioting hooligans heard Barton declare that Jesus opposed the minimum wage, they would probably start in on churches.

349 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:21:19am

re: #346 sattv4u2

Yes

I also own a treadmill

It makes a great clothes hanger!!!

My stationary bike has an ashtray. And drink holder.

350 sattv4u2  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:22:05am

re: #347 iceweasel

A woman?
/
I forgot, there's no wimmin on the internets.


There aren't??

DAMN ,, and I just maxed out my credit cards getting what I thought was a virtual "massage" by a one!!!

351 iossarian  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:22:11am

re: #345 Gus 802

Quid pro quo. Tit for tat. Point counter point. Who will win today's round of "I'm the smartest man on the internet!™"

//

Is there a category for "most determined to make one simple point, over and over?"

'Cause I'm JUST GETTING STARTED.

352 Gus  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:23:32am

re: #347 iceweasel

A woman?
/
I forgot, there's no wimmin on the internets.

Yeah. There's no "trust" on the internet either. I think the "there are no wimmin on the internets" meme can become rather absurd. So if there are no women then there are no men.

No wimmin and we're all Murican!

Passport and tax returns please.

//

353 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:23:33am

The internet isn't about winning or losing, it's about porn.

354 lostlakehiker  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:24:28am

re: #314 Obdicut

I don't think punishment provides a real deterrent at all, though. Again: We have harsher sentencing laws than the UK but we have higher rates of crime, and immensely high rates of recidivism. If punishment works, why is it failing in the US so badly?

Do you actually mean to be making such a broad-based statement about the lower-class? I doubt it.

You got latter and former mixed up, I assume. I don't think your assumption that they think they'll get away with it is correct. I think that they think that a certain percentage of them will get away with it, and some will get arrested, and like any statistical chance, humans are terrible at figuring out the odds and generally always feel they'll be part of the privileged one.

I think what you're saying is an absolutely massive oversimplification of what leads people to commit illegal acts.

You reverse cause and effect. Punishment is set at the lowest level that seems to suffice as a deterrent. We have higher rates of crime, and so we must have stiffer punishments.

In Leningrad during the siege of 1941-1944, people were executed for stealing a loaf of bread. The incentives for stealing food were so high, with people dying of hunger by the hundreds and on bad days the thousands, that nothing less would suffice to deter food theft. And of course, the theft of food was no little thing, not when everybody was starving.

We don't have a famine, so we don't have that penalty for that crime. But there are huge differences around the world in what risks offenders will take for what gains. Penalties must be sufficient to put the risk/reward ratio into the negative for most prospective offenders if there is to be any sort of civil order.

Naturally, the reward ratio, if it can be moved by state measures such as soup kitchens (going back to the food shortage example) is also something to think about. If the state has the ability, it needs to avoid situations where otherwise tolerably-behaved folk turn to crime out of biological necessity.

But punishment does work. Turnstile jumping is less common when it is monitored, when subway police are out in force and chase and catch offenders, and when courts then convict, than when enforcement is slack. Bratton and Giuliani turned NYC around by observing that it wasn't just about those tiny crimes, it was about a mindset. They found that turnstile arrests often netted an illegal handgun in the pockets, or an outstanding warrant, etc. Scofflaws scoff at every law, while those who've been once burned for a small crime are twice shy about committing a larger one.

355 lawhawk  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:24:48am

re: #353 Cannadian Club Akbar

Indeed.

Youtube Video
356 Gus  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:25:43am

TLDNR TLDNR TLDNR TLDNR TLDNR TLDNR TLDNR TLDNR TLDNR TLDNR TLDNR TLDNR TLDNR TLDNR

357 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:26:25am

re: #356 Gus 802

TLDNR TLDNR TLDNR TLDNR TLDNR TLDNR TLDNR TLDNR TLDNR TLDNR TLDNR TLDNR TLDNR TLDNR

I like your new avatar. So gentle. :)

358 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:26:50am

re: #321 Obdicut

The biggest problem is probably how the majority and minority should interact *while* the awaited integration happens. Obviously, if the groups are insulated from one another, then it's all for naught - no integration can happen. Otherwise, on the other hand, inevitably there will be clashes, both because of the ingrained elements of the minority society that aren't very compatible with the ways of the majority, including all the things that you mentioned, but which can be even worse (in Russia it's drug dealing, for example), and from the majority - the usual racism/prejudice and lack of understanding. But this leads to perpetuation of the old problems.

BTW, a historical note: the Bolsheviks tried a sort of an experiment, which resulted in failure, here's an article in Kritika you may be interested in:

[Link: muse.jhu.edu...]

359 Gus  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:27:00am

re: #357 iceweasel

I like your new avatar. So gentle. :)

If they only knew. ;)

360 Varek Raith  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:27:36am

re: #357 iceweasel

I like your new avatar. So gentle. :)

Yesterday we were discussing its gayness.
///
:P

361 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:27:58am

re: #334 sattv4u2

How about a little of both?

i.e,, Italian immigrants flooded the USA at one point (including my maternal grandparents and paternal grandfather)

They all became citizens in time,, they all worked within the system here,,, BUT,, they all maintained 'their' culture in their homes and even had their own enclaves in the city (shops, restaurants, voting in "their" rep to city councils, et al)

One has to want to integrate though. If we're talking specifically about the Roma culture, this presents a whole load of problems.

362 sattv4u2  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:28:04am

re: #357 iceweasel

I like your new avatar. So gentle. :)

That it is

He beat the snot out of a 12 year old girl for it!!

363 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:28:24am

bbiam

364 Obdicut  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:28:45am

re: #354 lostlakehiker

You reverse cause and effect. Punishment is set at the lowest level that seems to suffice as a deterrent.

This is not a true claim, no.

We have higher rates of crime, and so we must have stiffer punishments.

This is either a false statement or a terrible idea, I can't tell which.

Penalties must be sufficient to put the risk/reward ratio into the negative for most prospective offenders if there is to be any sort of civil order.

First you have to get people to actually think about the risk and reward. Then you have to actually catch and prosecute the people. Both of those, especially the latter, is far more important than the actual sentence length.

Bratton and Giuliani turned NYC around by observing that it wasn't just about those tiny crimes, it was about a mindset.

Please don't act as though that is a proved concept. Crime rates fell all over the country not just where the 'broken window' theories were in effect.

Scofflaws scoff at every law, while those who've been once burned for a small crime are twice shy about committing a larger one.

Absolutely untrue. The recidivism rate, and the correlation between juvie convictions and later convictions, shows that the opposite is true. I have no idea why you think otherwise.

365 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:28:52am

re: #362 sattv4u2

That it is

He beat the snot out of a 12 year old girl for it!!

Imagine what he'd do for one with a kitten.

366 sattv4u2  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:29:26am

re: #361 Sergey Romanov

One has to want to integrate though. If we're talking specifically about the Roma culture, this presents a whole load of problems.

Agree,, I was responding to your "what are the real-life examples short of full assimilation"

367 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:29:55am

Jimmah has discovered ebay. Someone help me stop him before he buys more stereo equipment!

368 Varek Raith  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:30:35am

re: #367 iceweasel

Jimmah has discovered ebay. Someone help me stop him before he buys more stereo equipment!

Ruh-roh!

369 lawhawk  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:30:56am

Entire US stealth fighter fleet remains grounded.

But after building more than 170 F-22 Raptors and a handful of F-35 Joint Strike Fighters, not a single one is available for service. The Air Force currently has zero flyable stealth fighters. None.

The vaunted F-22 has been grounded with a possible faulty oxygen system since May. Production of the last few Raptors is even on hold, because the jets can’t fly from the factory.

Last week, test flights for the newer F-35 were suspended, too, because of a valve problem in the plane’s integrated power package. It’s the third time this year that JSFs have been grounded. Tests may resume as early as next week. Then again, they may not.

That leaves no stealth fighters available - the F-117 was retired in advance of the F-22 arrival. Only the B-2 remains available for action as a bombing platform until the kinks are worked out on the other fighters.

Problem is that those fighter programs are costing tens of billions of dollars, and a shrinking budget means that they are likely to face additional budget cuts adding costs to the per-unit price.

370 Ziggy Standard  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:31:02am

re: #345 Gus 802

Quid pro quo. Tit for tat. Point counter point. Who will win today's round of "I'm the smartest man on the internet!™"

//

We want to see fiskings, refiskings and multi-tiered 8-level hierarchy nested mega fiskings.

371 Varek Raith  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:31:06am

Forces in Afghanistan kill militants involved in downing of copter

372 Gus  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:31:25am

re: #360 Varek Raith

Yesterday we were discussing its gayness.
///
:P

The irony of course is that sunflowers eventually become sunflower seeds. The favorite snack for macho Pennsyltuckians and their cusins 'cross Murica.

//

373 sattv4u2  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:31:37am

re: #367 iceweasel

Jimmah has discovered ebay. Someone help me stop him before he buys more stereo equipment!

On the bright side, if he buys speakers that are larger than a couch, it gives you somewhere to hide the body

374 Varek Raith  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:32:27am

re: #373 sattv4u2

On the bright side, if he buys speakers that are larger than a couch, it gives you somewhere to hide the body

Run, Jimmah, RUN!

375 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:33:00am

New rule: no ebay while drunk!

376 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:33:34am

re: #358 Sergey Romanov

BTW, a historical note: the Bolsheviks tried a sort of an experiment, which resulted in failure, here's an article in Kritika you may be interested in:

[Link: muse.jhu.edu...]

For those interested, the whole article seems to be at [Link: findarticles.com...] (findarticles is usually a temporary location).

377 sattv4u2  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:33:45am

re: #375 iceweasel

New rule: no ebay while drunk!

EBAY just lost 98% of it's business

378 Lidane  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:33:52am

re: #343 Killgore Trout

Boehner Claims S&P Downgrade Happened Because Democrats Blocked The GOP’s Attempt To Eliminate Medicare

Because people are demanding that Medicare gets eliminated. Really.

What planet do these people live on?

379 lostlakehiker  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:33:53am

re: #295 ralphieboy

It is one of the oldest tricks in the book: the British Empire has always had its lowest classes in the front lines, proudly dying for the privileges of the upper class.

American slave holders did it with poor whites in the south as well. The Confederate Draft Act provided an exemption for any man who owned more than 20 slaves...

That wasn't a trick. The Confederacy may not have been nice, but it wasn't entirely stupid. Slaves don't labor because they love Massa. They work because they're compelled. The big owner is running a business, grinding out the sinews of war. Take him out of the picture and off to the Front, and production on the home front slows. The runaway "problem" intensifies.

It's not just the rich who are exempted in time of war. It's anyone who is essential in the job he's in. Britain, during WW2, had exemptions for coal miners.

The Union allowed men to simply buy an exemption. That's a much better example of letting the rich off the hook. The Union may have been nice, but it could sometimes be really stupid.

380 Gus  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:34:01am

re: #369 lawhawk

Entire US stealth fighter fleet remains grounded.

That leaves no stealth fighters available - the F-117 was retired in advance of the F-22 arrival. Only the B-2 remains available for action as a bombing platform until the kinks are worked out on the other fighters.

Problem is that those fighter programs are costing tens of billions of dollars, and a shrinking budget means that they are likely to face additional budget cuts adding costs to the per-unit price.

We're all gonna die! Seriously though. They can still fly near the deck. We've done without stealth fighters before. I think it's funny how we've become so obsessed with stealth technology. The F-22 is a hangar queen.

381 Ericus58  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:34:40am

re: #375 iceweasel

New rule: no ebay while drunk!

Drunk Dialing... Drunk Shopping.
No good will come of it
/

382 Political Atheist  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:34:56am

re: #369 lawhawk
They will get this fixed. I seem to recall some major groundings when the now venerable "electric jet" the F-16 with fly by wire was first deployed.

383 McSpiff  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:35:40am

re: #369 lawhawk

Entire US stealth fighter fleet remains grounded.

That leaves no stealth fighters available - the F-117 was retired in advance of the F-22 arrival. Only the B-2 remains available for action as a bombing platform until the kinks are worked out on the other fighters.

Problem is that those fighter programs are costing tens of billions of dollars, and a shrinking budget means that they are likely to face additional budget cuts adding costs to the per-unit price.

Good article, but you have your nomenclature a little off. The F-117 was never a true 'fighter' as it never had an air-to-air capability. Its mission was ground-attack. The fighter moniker was mostly disinformation about its actual capabilities. The B-2, (B for bomber) likewise is a ground attack platform.

While the F-22 does have a ground attack capability, its primary role is air superiority fighter. Its the first true stealth fighter the US has produced.

There is very little overlap in the mission between the B-2 and the F-22. In that sense, it makes the grounding of the even F-22 worse.

384 Buck  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:36:10am

re: #343 Killgore Trout

Boehner Claims S&P Downgrade Happened Because Democrats Blocked The GOP’s Attempt To Eliminate Medicare

Did Boehner really say the GOP attempted To eliminate medicare?

I doubt it.

385 Gus  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:36:40am

Uh oh. Here comes the "Jane's all World Military" again.

386 iossarian  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:37:13am

re: #380 Gus 802

We're all gonna die! Seriously though. They can still fly near the deck. We've done without stealth fighters before. I think it's funny how we've become so obsessed with stealth technology. The F-22 is a hangar queen.

That's what you think. It's stealth, remember?

Ever wonder how those big holes in the roads got there? HMMM?

387 McSpiff  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:37:39am

re: #385 Gus 802

Uh oh. Here comes the "Jane's all World Military" again.

I'm done, just explaining why grounding the F-22 is even more of a boondoggle than lawhawk said.

388 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:37:39am

To Infini-Tea And Beyond: 'Tea Party In Space' Aims To Stop NASA's 'Socialism'

An offshoot of the South Florida Tea Party called "Tea Party In Space" is looking to break apart the government's socialist takeover of the final frontier.

Andrew L. Gasser launched Tea Party In Space in June as a way to "bring fiscal responsibility" into the space program, he told TPM Tuesday. He called the group, which was formed in conjunction with the South Florida Tea Party, the first "issue-specific" tea party in the country.

Gasser explained that the group aims to bring the free markets into the space program, because right now, he say, there is only the government -- which amounts to socialism.

"It is socialism when you have the government coming down and saying, 'this is what we want to build, and this is how we want you to build it,'"

he said.

Socialists in Space!

389 jamesfirecat  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:37:49am

re: #384 Buck

Did Boehner really say the GOP attempted To eliminate medicare?

I doubt it.

Maybe you could read the Article and tell us all one way or another instead of just guessing Buck?

390 lostlakehiker  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:38:07am

re: #364 Obdicut

This is not a true claim, no.

This is either a false statement or a terrible idea, I can't tell which.

First you have to get people to actually think about the risk and reward. Then you have to actually catch and prosecute the people. Both of those, especially the latter, is far more important than the actual sentence length.

Please don't act as though that is a proved concept. Crime rates fell all over the country not just where the 'broken window' theories were in effect.

Absolutely untrue. The recidivism rate, and the correlation between juvie convictions and later convictions, shows that the opposite is true. I have no idea why you think otherwise.

Oh puhleeze. Of COURSE a juvenile conviction is predictive of adult crime. The question is whether a series of juvenile offenses, at a given severity, that go unpunished, is more likely to lead to adult crime, than a couple of juvenile offenses that do trigger punishment. That argument, that a juvenile conviction is predictive of adult crime, rests on an elementary misunderstanding of conditional probability.

Crime rates fell particularly sharply in NYC. Please don't act as though this is an unproved concept. The idea was taken as a model and implemented in many other cities. It worked there too.

391 Gus  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:38:31am

I think it's funny how we go from "not enough money for the poor!!" to military lust that costs billions in here within one hour. It's like neocon-liberalism or something.

392 Varek Raith  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:38:55am

re: #382 Rightwingconspirator

They will get this fixed. I seem to recall some major groundings when the now venerable "electric jet" the F-16 with fly by wire was first deployed.

Of course, a single F-16 doesn't cost 400 million bucks a pop.

393 iossarian  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:39:31am

re: #388 iceweasel

To Infini-Tea And Beyond: 'Tea Party In Space' Aims To Stop NASA's 'Socialism'

he said.

Socialists in Space!

Where do I sign up to go to space in the cheap, no-regulations, no-government-interference TeaMobile?

394 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:39:33am

re: #391 Gus 802

I think it's funny how we go from "not enough money for the poor!!" to military lust that costs billions in here within one hour. It's like neocon-liberalism or something.

Schizophrenia?

395 Varek Raith  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:39:44am

re: #388 iceweasel

To Infini-Tea And Beyond: 'Tea Party In Space' Aims To Stop NASA's 'Socialism'

he said.

Socialists in Space!

Whut.

396 sattv4u2  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:39:47am

re: #389 jamesfirecat

Maybe you could read the Article and tell us all one way or another instead of just guessing Buck?

Boehner

We passed a budget through the House in April that includes entitlement reform


No mention of "elimination"

397 McSpiff  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:39:59am

re: #391 Gus 802

I think it's funny how we go from "not enough money for the poor!!" to military lust that costs billions in here within one hour. It's like neocon-liberalism or something.

Who's lusting Gus?

398 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:40:03am

re: #393 iossarian

Socialists in Space!

Where do I sign up to go to space in the cheap, no-regulations, no-government-interference TeaMobile?

I want my gubbmint funded socialist space bucks!

399 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:40:28am

re: #367 iceweasel

Jimmah has discovered ebay. Someone help me stop him before he buys more stereo equipment!

Is there Craigslist in the UK?

400 Ziggy Standard  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:40:36am

Just spotted an interesting 'mood lighting' system on ebay that I am sure iceweasel would appreciate...

Image: 7be837f98e8c72c7ece299f41283f6ee_f28.jpg

401 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:40:42am

re: #391 Gus 802

I think it's funny how we go from "not enough money for the poor!!" to military lust that costs billions in here within one hour. It's like neocon-liberalism or something.

Military stuff needs to be washed and poor people are on probation and need to finish community service hours!! Win/Win!!

402 Gus  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:40:49am

re: #397 McSpiff

Who's lusting Gus?

I don't know. Is she good looking?

//

403 iossarian  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:40:57am

re: #390 lostlakehiker


Crime rates fell particularly sharply in NYC. Please don't act as though this is an unproved concept. The idea was taken as a model and implemented in many other cities. It worked there too.

Not that Freakonomics is the be-all-and-end-all of truthiness, but they did suggest that the fall in crime was correlated with increased spending on police activity rather than a specific "broken window" philosophy of policing.

404 Buck  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:41:09am

re: #396 sattv4u2


No mention of "elimination"

Ya, I thought that was obvious to anyone who was following the news.

405 sattv4u2  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:41:20am

re: #402 Gus 802

I don't know. Is she good looking?

//

Isn't everyone on the internet?

406 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:41:34am

re: #399 Alouette

Is there Craigslist in the UK?

There is, but it just isn't used that much. I don't know why it didn't take off here in the same way.

407 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:41:40am

re: #379 lostlakehiker

The reasoning was clear: somebody had to stay home and hold the whip so the slaves would continue to be happy in their work.

The point was that they had the poor whites who did not own slaves defending the rich whites who did own slaves.

408 iossarian  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:42:06am

re: #398 iceweasel

I want my gubbmint funded socialist space bucks!

Space helmet seals cost extra. The individual can choose whether or not to seal his or her space helmet!

THUS DRIVING DOWN THE COST OF SPACE CONQUEST.

409 Gus  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:43:13am

re: #394 iceweasel

Schizophrenia?

That rare hybrid. The "cruise missile liberal". Tomorrow we invade Iran! "Bomb bomb bomb. Bomb bomb Iran!" Just like McCain! But "we hate him" right? Whew. Confusing I tell ya'.

410 sattv4u2  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:43:15am

re: #408 iossarian

Space helmet seals cost extra. The individual can choose whether or not to seal his or her space helmet!

THUS DRIVING DOWN THE COST OF SPACE CONQUEST.

and unless you're an Inuit,,, you can't club them!

411 Obdicut  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:43:39am

re: #390 lostlakehiker

Oh puhleeze. Of COURSE a juvenile conviction is predictive of adult crime. The question is whether a series of juvenile offenses, at a given severity, that go unpunished, is more likely to lead to adult crime, than a couple of juvenile offenses that do trigger punishment.

Sure. And you have no factual basis at all to believe that it does. None. Zero. Zip.

Crime rates fell particularly sharply in NYC. Please don't act as though this is an unproved concept. The idea was taken as a model and implemented in many other cities. It worked there too.

It is an unproven concept. It's a strong theory. The criticism of it is very, very strong too.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

I know that you believe it, and you want it to be true. That is not the same thing as it actually being a proven theory. There may be some parts of it that have merit; the theory as a whole is demonstrably not always true.

For example:

In the Winter 2006 edition of the University of Chicago Law Review, Bernard Harcourt and Jens Ludwig looked at the later Department of Housing and Urban Development program that re-housed inner-city project tenants in New York into more orderly neighborhoods. The broken windows theory would suggest that these tenants would commit less crime once moved, due to the more stable conditions on the streets. Harcourt and Ludwig found instead that the tenants continued to commit crime at the same rate.

412 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:44:07am

re: #409 Gus 802

That rare hybrid. The "cruise missile liberal". Tomorrow we invade Iran! "Bomb bomb bomb. Bomb bomb Iran!" Just like McCain! But "we hate him" right? Whew. Confusing I tell ya'.

Apparently McCain had to face a lot of angry teabaggers at a recent meeting, who were angry that he'd called them hobbits.

413 Varek Raith  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:44:47am

re: #412 iceweasel

Apparently McCain had to face a lot of angry teabaggers at a recent meeting, who were angry that he'd called them hobbits.

And that the UN was going to take their guns and farms.

414 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:44:54am

re: #354 lostlakehiker

You are assuming that offenders are always rational actors and that all crimes are committed out of careful deliberation and not irrational passion of the moment.

Your assumptions are false. This is most clearly demonstrated in the stark difference between white-collar crime and blue-collar crime.

415 McSpiff  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:45:24am

re: #409 Gus 802

That rare hybrid. The "cruise missile liberal". Tomorrow we invade Iran! "Bomb bomb bomb. Bomb bomb Iran!" Just like McCain! But "we hate him" right? Whew. Confusing I tell ya'.

...are you even reading the same website as the rest of us?

416 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:46:19am

re: #415 McSpiff

...are you even reading the same website as the rest of us?

"Let him go. He's on a roll".

417 HappyWarrior  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:46:25am

re: #388 iceweasel

To Infini-Tea And Beyond: 'Tea Party In Space' Aims To Stop NASA's 'Socialism'

he said.

Socialists in Space!

I am sure President Eisenhower is rolling over in his grave hearing NASA compared to socialism. Seriously Tea Party idiots just because you don't like something doesn't make it socialism. Bunch of children they are.

418 iossarian  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:46:32am

re: #412 iceweasel

Apparently McCain had to face a lot of angry teabaggers at a recent meeting, who were angry that he'd called them hobbits.

Toleration of redundancy is something I will not tolerate.

419 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:46:32am

While we're on the subject of Roma, my crop of Roma tomatoes was a complete fail. All the fruits developed blossom end rot, but this only affected the Roma tomato plants. All the other tomato plants are OK.

420 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:46:38am

re: #413 Varek Raith

And that the UN was going to take their guns and farms.

Oh that's right! I'd forgotten that bit and it was the best part!

421 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:46:40am

re: #408 iossarian

Space helmet seals cost extra. The individual can choose whether or not to seal his or her space helmet!

THUS DRIVING DOWN THE COST OF SPACE CONQUEST.

They say they are infavor of "public-private partnerships", which means that tax money can flow in, but there is no transparency as it is a private contract...

it is this knee-jerk reaction to anything they choose to define as "socialism", along with a knee-jerk reaction to anything to do with science (evolution, AGW) and Islam that characterizes the Tea Party and has become the defning force in our current political discourse.

422 Gus  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:46:53am

re: #415 McSpiff

...are you even reading the same website as the rest of us?

Good one. Ask around my friend. Ask around.

423 McSpiff  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:47:40am

Well, when the going gets weird, the weird get going. Have a good day all.

424 Varek Raith  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:47:46am

re: #420 iceweasel

Oh that's right! I'd forgotten that bit and it was the best part!

It's truly a wonder that they are able to get out of their beds in the morning and not hurt themselves.

425 Idle Drifter  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:48:00am

re: #395 Varek Raith

Socialists in Space!

Whut.

Ren and Stimpy Spaced Dogged

[Link: www.123video.nl...]

426 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:48:11am

re: #239 Shiplord Kirel


I predict that "black people behaving badly" will be the most successful dog-whistle campaign in history next year, the unspoken sub-text of the whole GOP effort.

And why wouldn't it work. It's been working on the dumb bigots since at least the days of Nat Turner.

427 sattv4u2  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:48:20am

re: #416 Cannadian Club Akbar

"Let him go. He's on a roll".

TOGA TOGA TOGA TOGA

428 Gus  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:48:33am

re: #423 McSpiff

Well, when the going gets weird, the weird get going. Have a good day all.

Say hi to Bagua.

429 HappyWarrior  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:48:36am

re: #412 iceweasel

Apparently McCain had to face a lot of angry teabaggers at a recent meeting, who were angry that he'd called them hobbits.

I am surprised he didn't call them paranoid idiots. Tough for them that they got their feelings hurt. They dish it out but they obviously can't take it.

430 iossarian  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:48:38am

re: #421 ralphieboy

They say they are infavor of "public-private partnerships", which means that tax money can flow in, but there is no transparency as it is a private contract...

Public-private partnerships! The public comes up with the money, and it goes to private enterprise!

It's a partnership, see!

431 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:49:09am

Time to make dinner. Chili-- it's freakin cold and rainy here. BBL

432 iossarian  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:49:31am

re: #431 iceweasel

Time to make dinner. Chili-- it's freakin cold and rainy here. BBL

Scotland duh.

433 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:49:58am

re: #412 iceweasel

Apparently McCain had to face a lot of angry teabaggers at a recent meeting, who were angry that he'd called them hobbits.

Gollum was a hobbit, before he became Gollum.

434 Varek Raith  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:50:12am

re: #432 iossarian

Scotland duh.

FFFFRRRREEEEDDDDOOOMMMMM!!!!
...
What?

435 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:50:43am

re: #430 iossarian

Public-private partnerships! The public comes up with the money, and it goes to private enterprise!

It's a partnership, see!

The private sector is way more effective than the public sector. Which is why I NEED public money to send my kids to parochial school or else I'll cry it's not fair oh wait..

436 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:50:52am

re: #434 Varek Raith

FFFRRREEEDDDOOOMMM!!!
...
What?

Why so blue?
/

437 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:51:02am

re: #430 iossarian

Public-private partnerships! The public comes up with the money, and it goes to private enterprise!

It's a partnership, see!


And defense is all about the no-bid, cost-plus contract and limited transparency because of security concerns. But that is not socialism, socialism is inefficient and results in multi-billion dollar programs that produce nothing but expensive weapons that nobody can use...

438 Varek Raith  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:53:30am

Later gators.

439 iossarian  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:53:54am

re: #437 ralphieboy

And defense is all about the no-bid, cost-plus contract and limited transparency because of security concerns. But that is not socialism, socialism is inefficient and results in multi-billion dollar programs that produce nothing but expensive weapons that nobody can use...

Massive GOP state jobs program stat.

440 Schadenfreude 'r' Us  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:54:08am

re: #412 iceweasel

Apparently McCain had to face a lot of angry teabaggers at a recent meeting, who were angry that he'd called them hobbits.

Isn't someone going to speak up for hobbits? They deserve better than to be compared with teabaggers. At the very least, they throw better parties.

441 Obdicut  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:54:52am

re: #440 C1nnabar

Isn't someone going to speak up for hobbits? They deserve better than to be compared with teabaggers. At the very least, they throw better parties.

Seriously. Hobbits were agrarian boffos who were mildly socially conservative but also pretty damn nice, too.

442 HappyWarrior  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:54:53am

I really think the TPers have this myth they've created in their mind thanks to people like Beck that this country and other ones at one point unregulated capitalism. After all, the big issue facing the country along with slavery in the 19th century was the issue of a tariff. Unions and guilds have been around since before Marx. I could go on and on. And of course, they never think about the conditions that led to people like Teddy Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson doing the reforms they did. Unless the TPers like their food unsafe which I doubt.

443 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:55:05am

We have

Youtube Video
444 iossarian  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:56:45am

re: #442 HappyWarrior

I will do my own food safety checks thank you very blerghhhh...

Ahem. Excuse me.

445 lawhawk  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:57:59am

re: #380 Gus 802

On its face, you'd be right, except that the USAF and USN are phasing out their older aircraft (F-15, F-16 and F-18 series) and were counting on these new planes to replace airframes that have gotten quite a bit of use over Afghanistan and Iraq.

Thing is that you don't need stealth to fight the Taliban or to pound the ground. You need more of the Warthog from hell. So, it's a plane without a mission there.

446 HappyWarrior  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:59:07am

re: #444 iossarian

I will do my own food safety checks thank you very blerghhh...

Ahem. Excuse me.

Haha, seriously though, they forget that before industrialization and the many reforms that came with it, people didn't live as long. Is government the solution to everything? No, it's not but to completely rule out any government economic remeady as socialism while overlooking any benefits is foolishness. I still contend that a mixed economy works best.

447 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 9:05:22am

Trichinosis is the reason people eat applesauce with pork chops.

448 Political Atheist  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 9:05:56am

re: #392 Varek Raith

The F-16 was the "cheap light/export fighter". The F-15 was the big budget WW3 nuclear air war dominance plane of the day. Which had epic $$$ problems with its doomsday feature radar system early on. Funny thing is I have watch aerospace budget battles since the inception of the F-14. The specs and the $$ change, but not the debate.

449 McSpiff  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 9:06:43am

re: #428 Gus 802

Say hi to Bagua.

Think I'm going to get banned for discussing the F-22?

450 sattv4u2  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 9:06:56am

re: #447 Cannadian Club Akbar

Trichinosis is the reason people eat applesauce with pork chops.

Then they should stop eating that poisoned fruit!
/

451 iossarian  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 9:09:09am

re: #447 Cannadian Club Akbar

Trichinosis is the reason people eat applesauce with pork chops.

Aren't diseases great? Pork and apple, gin and tonic...

452 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 9:09:52am

re: #447 Cannadian Club Akbar

Trichinosis is the reason people eat applesauce with pork chops.

I'm presuming that this would be because pork really needs to be well done to ensure it's safe? Hence the applesauce?

I prefer to fry them till well done in butter with diced carrot & then use the juices to make a tarragon/parsley cream sauce and serve over a bed of rice.

453 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 9:11:26am

re: #452 wlewisiii

Needed, actually. You can order chops medium now. And ding for the recipe.:)

454 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 9:13:54am

Mmmm... pooork.

455 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 9:14:36am

re: #454 Sergey Romanov

Mmmm... pooork.

My friend puts in in his Sunday Gravy. Yum.

456 Political Atheist  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 9:16:23am

re: #445 lawhawk

That plane (IMO) is all about Asia. NK, or heaven forbid, China.

457 HappyWarrior  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 9:16:26am

mmmm breaded pork chops with mashed potatoes and apple sauce.

458 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 9:17:39am

re: #457 HappyWarrior

mmm breaded pork chops with mashed potatoes and apple sauce.

Dammit.

/ you can tell i'm hungry

459 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 9:21:35am

re: #457 HappyWarrior

mmm breaded pork chops with mashed potatoes and apple sauce.

[Link: allrecipes.com...]

460 tnguitarist  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 9:21:48am

Watching George Will on Charlie Rose. He's using Woodrow Wilson to show an example of the progressive agenda.

461 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 9:22:02am

re: #457 HappyWarrior

mmm breaded pork chops with mashed potatoes and apple sauce.

WHY DO YOU HATE JEWS AND MUSLIMS!1!1!!

462 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 9:22:08am

re: #367 iceweasel

Jimmah has discovered ebay. Someone help me stop him before he buys more stereo equipment!

Tell him he is also allowed to buy Scottish built stereo equipment since the rest is obviously crap by default. ;)

463 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 9:22:22am

re: #456 Rightwingconspirator

That plane (IMO) is all about Asia. NK, or heaven forbid, China.

What they need to do is leak the F-22 tech to China so that their stealth program gets messed up too. Kinda like the USSR pipeline we sabotaged by leaking incorrect computer specs to...

464 sattv4u2  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 9:22:41am

re: #452 wlewisiii

I'm presuming that this would be because pork really needs to be well donere: #453 Cannadian Club Akbar

Needed, actually. You can order chops medium now. And ding for the recipe.:)

Yes
Nowadays you don't have to cook pork till it's shoe leathery

465 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 9:23:39am

re: #453 Cannadian Club Akbar

Needed, actually. You can order chops medium now. And ding for the recipe.:)

You're welcome. While I could order them medium, I think I've got it too burned into my brain to not freak at pink in a chop :D

466 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 9:23:55am

re: #441 Obdicut

Seriously. Hobbits were agrarian boffos who were mildly socially conservative but also pretty damn nice, too.

Nice, until they are pushed out of their tidy routines. Look how vicious Sam got regarding large spiders and messing with Frodo in general...
/

467 HappyWarrior  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 9:24:02am

re: #460 tnguitarist

Watching George Will on Charlie Rose. He's using Woodrow Wilson to show an example of the progressive agenda.

I am no great fan of Woodrow Wilson but do people like Will realize what the country was like in the 1910's? There's a very good reason why the Progressive Era occurred.

468 HappyWarrior  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 9:24:41am

re: #462 oaktree

Tell him he is also allowed to buy Scottish built stereo equipment since the rest is obviously crap by default. ;)

Heh, can't help it, I love pork. It's why I could never be a faithful Jew or Muslim.

469 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 9:26:12am

re: #468 HappyWarrior

Heh, can't help it, I love pork. It's why I could never be a faithful Jew or Muslim.

I bet you won't say that to Alouette!!!
/

470 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 9:26:15am

re: #468 HappyWarrior

Heh, can't help it, I love pork. It's why I could never be a faithful Jew or Muslim.

I wasn't aware that there was halal or kosher stereo equipment...

471 tnguitarist  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 9:27:15am

"Would George Will have been glad to see GM go under?"

Will: "Absolutely!"

472 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 9:28:02am

Alrighty. Nap time. bbiab.

473 HappyWarrior  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 9:29:00am

re: #469 Cannadian Club Akbar

I bet you won't say that to Alouette!!!
/

Well I am not a good Christian either. But yeah I'd struggle in any religion that forbids the eating of pork. Favorite meat and all.

474 Gus  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 9:29:47am

re: #449 McSpiff

Think I'm going to get banned for discussing the F-22?

Calm down. That wasn't what I was attempting to do. I just thought I'd respond to your douchey comment with my own douchey comment. Carry on.

475 lawhawk  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 9:31:31am

Heh... a project being backed by both Al Franken and Michelle Bachmann is getting panned. They want to get an exemption to the federal Wild and Scenic Act so that they can build a $700 million bridge between MN and WI. Problem is that they (and a few other bipartisan members of the WI and MN delegations) are the only ones who seem to think that it isn't a boondoggle. There are less costly options that aren't being considered, and by tying up so much money on this one project, thousands of other bridges in both states can't get needed attention.

The NYT points this out as a bit of hypocrisy on porkbarrel spending from Bachmann, but it's really an issue confronting all politicians when it comes to infrastructure spending.

This $700 million project would go to replace a bridge that is overcapacity and serves 18,000+ commuters daily.

$700 million would go a long way to replacing the Pulaski skyway, which needs to be replaced and is obsolete and a safety hazard for those driving (or working underneath). The Pulaski handles... 67,000 drivers a day - but truck traffic must be diverted because it has weight limits and that overburdens nearby highways and roads.

$700 million would go a long way to replacing the Portal Bridge in NJ that is a major bottleneck for hundreds of thousands of commuters on the NEC.

$700 million would go a long way to improving the ATC infrastructure.

Oh, and this project is nearly 2x the cost to replace the I35 bridge that collapsed, and yet would handle a fraction of the traffic and is a fraction of the size.

476 tnguitarist  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 9:35:49am

Will applauds a law (Texas?) that says you have to put 20% down to buy a house.

I would have never been able to buy a house. I put 0% down. I've never missed a payment. I will pay off what was originally a 30 year loan in 12 years or less. But to Will, it is "social justice' to give loans to people that can't afford 20% down.

477 jaunte  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 9:36:09am

re: #475 lawhawk

A major interstate highway crossing, Interstate-94, is just six miles away.


The money-saving answer seems obvious.

478 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 9:36:51am

re: #473 HappyWarrior

Well I am not a good Christian either. But yeah I'd struggle in any religion that forbids the eating of pork. Favorite meat and all.

Whatever. You can have my share, and CuriousLurker's too.

479 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 9:38:21am

re: #464 sattv4u2

I'm presuming that this would be because pork really needs to be well donere: #453 Cannadian Club Akbar

Yes
Nowadays you don't have to cook pork till it's shoe leathery

Try katsu don, panko-breaded pork cutlet.

Or, Japanese schnitzel.

480 Kragar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 9:38:48am

Geller: 'Muslims Face No Discrimination In The United States'

481 HappyWarrior  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 9:39:35am

re: #480 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Geller: 'Muslims Face No Discrimination In The United States'

Uh huh Pam which is why movements to ban mosques from communities never get off the ground. Oh wait.

482 sattv4u2  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 9:40:28am

re: #479 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Try katsu don, panko-breaded pork cutlet.

Or, Japanese schnitzel.

Among the varied ways we serve pork, that's one that's already in the meal planner rotation

483 HappyWarrior  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 9:42:13am

One of the coolest things I remember in Central Europe was the roadside stops where they sold cold breaded schnitzel sandwhiches. I love chicken fried steak too and chicken parm.

484 iossarian  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 9:42:29am

re: #476 tnguitarist

Will applauds a law (Texas?) that says you have to put 20% down to buy a house.

I would have never been able to buy a house. I put 0% down. I've never missed a payment. I will pay off what was originally a 30 year loan in 12 years or less. But to Will, it is "social justice' to give loans to people that can't afford 20% down.

His money-lending masters won't be pleased.

I mean seriously, when is this whole "predatory lending was the evil work of Bill Clinton and the government" zombie meme going to die?

485 HappyWarrior  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 9:43:06am

re: #476 tnguitarist

Will applauds a law (Texas?) that says you have to put 20% down to buy a house.

I would have never been able to buy a house. I put 0% down. I've never missed a payment. I will pay off what was originally a 30 year loan in 12 years or less. But to Will, it is "social justice' to give loans to people that can't afford 20% down.

Heh he's quite the elitist isn't he?

486 lawhawk  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 9:43:29am

re: #479 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Most everything tastes better with panko (and fried).

488 tnguitarist  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 9:45:20am

re: #484 iossarian

re: #485 HappyWarrior

I understand that you can't just lend to anyone. But I would have had to come up with $24000 to buy my house. Do they realize how long it takes to save that kind of money?

489 tnguitarist  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 9:46:01am

George Will: fighting the good fight for rich folks everywhere.

490 HappyWarrior  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 9:47:51am

re: #488 tnguitarist

re: #485 HappyWarrior

I understand that you can't just lend to anyone. But I would have had to come up with $24000 to buy my house. Do they realize how long it takes to save that kind of money?

I really honestly don't think they do. Will lives in a fantasy land. He's not a dumb man but he's wholly out of touch with the average American's hopes and concerns. Plus he's got a pathological hatred of jeans too.

491 HappyWarrior  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 9:48:50am

re: #487 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Gaffney claims Christie committed treason over Sharia law stance

Does dumbass know what treason is? Egads this man was an under cabinet officer for god's sake.

492 Political Atheist  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 9:51:44am

re: #406 iceweasel
re: #400 Jimmah

Hello you two!
(Lurkin & workin')

493 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 9:53:18am

Video shows police beating suspect
I say tune 'em up.

494 Obdicut  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 9:55:17am

re: #493 Killgore Trout

Unlikely to help, likely to cause more problems.

I'm fine with police using whatever force necessary to take someone down who's setting fire to buildings or robbing someone.

But as soon as they're down, you're wasting time and inflaming the problem-- not to mention massively violating their rights-- by beating them.

495 iossarian  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 9:55:17am

re: #493 Killgore Trout

Video shows police beating suspect
I say tune 'em up.

Trouble.

496 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 9:59:28am

Well, I think tonight calls for a pot of leek potato soup. Time to go start simmering some veggies. BBL.

497 garhighway  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 10:00:14am

re: #302 ralphieboy

My belief is that a major reason for bailing out insolvent banks is to protect the economy. if you create a class or a large group who have nothing to lose in ruining companies - you will get economic chaos

We have such a class. They are called "management".

And they gave us chaos.

Hypothesis confirmed.

498 Kragar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 10:00:31am

Bryan Fischer's unique perspective on State's Rights

499 garhighway  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 10:01:45am

re: #498 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Bryan Fischer's unique perspective on State's Rights

Let me guess:

Red States get rights from Evangelical Christian God. Blue States are spawn of Satan.

Was I close?

500 blueraven  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 10:02:58am

re: #476 tnguitarist

Will applauds a law (Texas?) that says you have to put 20% down to buy a house.

I would have never been able to buy a house. I put 0% down. I've never missed a payment. I will pay off what was originally a 30 year loan in 12 years or less. But to Will, it is "social justice' to give loans to people that can't afford 20% down.

The problem wasn't the loans themselves, it was the predatory nature; loaning money to those who could in no way afford the payments, especially those with balloon notes, lying on the application forms etc...
Anything to get the signature on the dotted line.

501 HappyWarrior  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 10:03:05am

re: #498 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Bryan Fischer's unique perspective on State's Rights

Maybe he should give up the whole constitutional scholar thing since it's obviously not working. Meh at least he didn't threaten to scalp the New York republican senators that voted for marriage equality.

502 Kragar  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 10:06:35am

re: #499 garhighway

Let me guess:

Red States get rights from Evangelical Christian God. Blue States are spawn of Satan.

Was I close?

Close. Apparently, State's Rights mean if you can get enough states to amend the constitution, then all the other states should shut up and fall in line.

503 garhighway  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 10:09:43am

re: #476 tnguitarist

Will applauds a law (Texas?) that says you have to put 20% down to buy a house.

I would have never been able to buy a house. I put 0% down. I've never missed a payment. I will pay off what was originally a 30 year loan in 12 years or less. But to Will, it is "social justice' to give loans to people that can't afford 20% down.

I thought he was a free enterprise guy. I guess now he's a "government intervention in the marketplace" guy. I didn't see that coming.

504 iossarian  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 10:11:14am

re: #503 garhighway

I thought he was a free enterprise guy. I guess now he's a "government intervention in the marketplace" guy. I didn't see that coming.

When people start defaulting on their loans, obviously it is only right and proper for the government to make such defaults illegal.

505 blueraven  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 10:15:59am

re: #503 garhighway

I thought he was a free enterprise guy. I guess now he's a "government intervention in the marketplace" guy. I didn't see that coming.

There is also a law in TX which limits borrowing to 80% of the value of the home. I think that is a good law, and probably helped TX in avoiding much of the housing bubble mess.

506 albusteve  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 10:18:23am

this is kinda cool....what should have happened regarding the debt ceiling
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

507 garhighway  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 10:25:36am

re: #505 blueraven

There is also a law in TX which limits borrowing to 80% of the value of the home. I think that is a good law, and probably helped TX in avoiding much of the housing bubble mess.

I'm no fan of many of the loans that caused the bubble/crash, but I also do not think it is The State's place to tell you or I how much we can borrow. That ought to be between us and our lender.

I mean, really. If I want to borrow 80% from the bank and 20% from my parents I am a criminal? Even if I am completely credit-worthy? That makes no sense at all.

508 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 10:56:08am

re: #498 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Bryan Fischer's unique perspective on State's Rights

Yeah, right in the pocket. States have the "right" to kick around whatever minorities they feel like, Constitution or no.

509 [deleted]  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 10:56:51am
510 Ziggy Standard  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 11:11:33am

re: #509 Gus 802

[Link: twitter.com...]

Wow. That's fucked up.

511 lostlakehiker  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 3:16:43pm

re: #259 Gus 802

11 grand. Lovely isn't it? We have some strange priorities in this country though.

11K per year per student ought to suffice. If a teacher has 20 students, that's 220K to be split between teacher salary, building overhead, etc.

How can that NOT be enough? How can society even come up with a lot more? If we spent 22K per child per year, would the reading scores even budge? In Kansas City, MO, they tested this, and no, the scores did not improve.

512 Gus  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 3:26:58pm

re: #511 lostlakehiker

11K per year per student ought to suffice. If a teacher has 20 students, that's 220K to be split between teacher salary, building overhead, etc.

How can that NOT be enough? How can society even come up with a lot more? If we spent 22K per child per year, would the reading scores even budge? In Kansas City, MO, they tested this, and no, the scores did not improve.

Well guess what? I looked back at the comment now and realized that I thought he was talking about average college costs being around $11,000 per year. That being said 11 grand should be a good enough sum to educate a child. However, the comparison of how much we spend for the prison-industrial complex and on each prisoner -- especially those incarcerated for drugs charges -- is an important one to ponder. Money that could be better spent on other things. America's priorities are screwed up and no one can convince me otherwise.

513 lostlakehiker  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 3:34:01pm

re: #411 Obdicut

Sure. And you have no factual basis at all to believe that it does. None. Zero. Zip.

It is an unproven concept. It's a strong theory. The criticism of it is very, very strong too.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

I know that you believe it, and you want it to be true. That is not the same thing as it actually being a proven theory. There may be some parts of it that have merit; the theory as a whole is demonstrably not always true.

For example:

The very idea of punishment would not exist if it basically didn't work. Your example makes my point. Some people who were behaving badly were REWARDED by being transferred to a nicer place. Their response to the stimulus of a reward for bad behavior was---more bad behavior. Go figure.

514 Obdicut  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 3:35:42pm

re: #513 lostlakehiker

The very idea of punishment would not exist if it basically didn't work.

Of course it would. That line of reasoning justifies any punishment. What idiocy.

Most criminals don't even know the jail terms for the things they're arrested for. Only the real pros do. You're imagining, as you so often do, a world with perfect information.

Some people who were behaving badly were REWARDED by being transferred to a nicer place. Their response to the stimulus of a reward for bad behavior was---more bad behavior. Go figure.


Oh, so you just don't even understand the claims that the Broken Window theory makes. Okay.


This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.

Jump to top

Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT LGF User's Guide RSS Feeds

Help support Little Green Footballs!

Subscribe now for ad-free access!Register and sign in to a free LGF account before subscribing, and your ad-free access will be automatically enabled.

Donate with
PayPal Cash.app
Recent PagesClick to refresh
Best of April 2024 Nothing new here but these are a look back at the a few good images from the past month. Despite the weather, I was quite pleased with several of them. These were taken with older lenses (made from the ...
William Lewis
Yesterday
Views: 140 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 4
Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ...
Cheechako
3 weeks ago
Views: 398 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1