Overnight Open Thread
Open • Views: 22,309
You’re not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on.
— Dean Martin
396 comments
1 |
Alexzander Sun, Sep 18, 2011 10:17:37pm |
I have a knack for coming home just in time for the first comment. In this case it is on topic too as I am drunk. This floor is a fucking rollercoaster.
| 2 |
FemNaziBitch Sun, Sep 18, 2011 10:20:51pm |
re: #1 Alexzander
I have a knack for coming home just in time for the first comment. In this case it is on topic too as I am drunk. This floor is a fucking rollercoaster.
But is it a good ride?
3 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Sep 18, 2011 10:37:17pm |
For PLL:
| 4 |
palomino Sun, Sep 18, 2011 10:38:45pm |
re: #3 Dark_Falcon
For PLL:
I hope Libya is the template for the US wars of the future. How many more Iraqs and Afghanistans can we afford?
| 5 |
FemNaziBitch Sun, Sep 18, 2011 10:39:16pm |
| 6 |
FemNaziBitch Sun, Sep 18, 2011 10:40:01pm |
| 7 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Sep 18, 2011 10:52:26pm |
re: #4 palomino
I hope Libya is the template for the US wars of the future. How many more Iraqs and Afghanistans can we afford?
I don’t think we can take it as a template. It has been more like what Kosovo was for us. Sometimes we need boots on the ground, sometimes not. Libya was one of those times when those boots were not needed. But we cannot limit ourselves to cases where that is true.
| 8 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Sep 18, 2011 10:54:11pm |
re: #5 ggt
This is a good thing—right?
Looks very cool.
Yes, it’s a good thing. Mine Wolf is used to clear land mines and unexploded ordnance (UXO) quickly and safely. It will help Libya recover and save lives.
| 9 |
palomino Sun, Sep 18, 2011 10:58:39pm |
re: #7 Dark_Falcon
I don’t think we can take it as a template. It has been more like what Kosovo was for us. Sometimes we need boots on the ground, sometimes not. Libya was one of those times when those boots were not needed. But we cannot limit ourselves to cases where that is true.
Sounds reasonable. But we’re in no position to take on any new ambitious nation building endeavors after our last two.
| 10 |
Dark_Falcon Sun, Sep 18, 2011 11:06:19pm |
re: #9 palomino
Sounds reasonable. But we’re in no position to take on any new ambitious nation building endeavors after our last two.
That is true for the time being. So for now we rest and reequip. We avoid such ventures if we can in the future but undertake them more wisely if ever again we must do so. We should only say “Not Again” to being underprepared.
Goodnight, all.
11 |
Lidane Sun, Sep 18, 2011 11:10:22pm |
A bit of late night humor for my fellow Lizards, except I think the author is actually serious:
The comments are hilarious.
12 |
Kragar Sun, Sep 18, 2011 11:19:31pm |
Plane in NV Crash Had ‘Radical’ Changes to Compete
The World War II-era plane that plummeted into an air-race crowd like a missile bore little resemblance to its original self. It was rebuilt for speed, if not for stability.
The 65-year-old “Galloping Ghost” underwent years of massive overhauls that took a full 10 feet off its wingspan. The ailerons — the back edges of the main wings used to control balance — were cut from about 60 inches to 32.
Pilot Jimmy Leeward had said the changes made the P-51 Mustang faster and more maneuverable, but in the months before Friday’s crash even he wasn’t certain exactly how it would perform.
“I know it’ll do the speed,” he said in a podcast uploaded to YouTube in June. “The systems aren’t proven yet. We think they’re going to be OK.”
13 |
Four More Tears Sun, Sep 18, 2011 11:44:51pm |
re: #11 Lidane
A bit of late night humor for my fellow Lizards, except I think the author is actually serious:
The comments are hilarious.
Not every day you come across an article whose comments from the author have been hidden due to low ratings.
14 |
Targetpractice Sun, Sep 18, 2011 11:58:21pm |
re: #12 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
If they were going strictly for straight-line speed, that would be one thing. But when you’re flying in a sport where you’re subjecting your bird regularly to 3-5g of force in turns, radically altering the design to sacrifice control for speed is lunacy. Even worse, it means that when you do lose control, you’re even less likely to regain it before something bad happens.
All it’s going to take now is for the final report to read that one of the modifications gave way, resulting in the crash, and Leeward’s family may be facing several wrongful death suits.
15 |
laZardo Mon, Sep 19, 2011 12:18:06am |
re: #4 palomino
I hope Libya is the template for the US wars of the future. How many more Iraqs and Afghanistans can we afford?
Libya might just make it one too many. After all, the corporate-war complex needs a stimulus too!
| 16 |
laZardo Mon, Sep 19, 2011 12:20:19am |
On a less cynical note, the Arab Games have already updated their flags.
17 |
OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Mon, Sep 19, 2011 12:39:19am |
re: #11 Lidane
A bit of late night humor for my fellow Lizards, except I think the author is actually serious:
The comments are hilarious.
Satire surpassing even Landover Baptist. Christwire is the best!
| 18 |
OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Mon, Sep 19, 2011 12:42:01am |
“Available Light” by Rush…it never gets old.
19 |
Dancing along the light of day Mon, Sep 19, 2011 12:52:03am |
Night, all.
Be well..
Watch out for the floor!
20 |
Sol Berdinowitz Mon, Sep 19, 2011 1:12:40am |
Sassy gay husband? All too funny, you’re right, this could be right out of Landoverbabtist…
21 |
Irenicum Mon, Sep 19, 2011 1:14:01am |
Just watched the Sufjan video. I went to school with him, though we didn’t hang out together at Hope. Still don’t quite get him. He reminds me in this song of Andrew Bird, who I prefer.
24 |
Pavlovian Hive Mind Mon, Sep 19, 2011 1:46:27am |
re: #8 Dark_Falcon
Yes, it’s a good thing. Mine Wolf is used to clear land mines and unexploded ordnance (UXO) quickly and safely. It will help Libya recover and save lives.
Must be a blast to drive.
| 25 |
Pavlovian Hive Mind Mon, Sep 19, 2011 2:00:18am |
Netflix renames DVD-by-mail service, adds video games
Ah, the old “rename our company and pretend we now got a good rep trick”.
;)
| 27 |
BongCrodny Mon, Sep 19, 2011 2:14:19am |
re: #25 Varek Raith
Netflix renames DVD-by-mail service, adds video games
Ah, the old “rename our company and pretend we now got a good rep trick”.
;)
I’ve got more entertainment value out of Netflix than any other entertainment choice I’ve made in years.
But I’m really beginning to believe that Wall Street’s sole purpose these days is to fuck things up.
30 |
researchok Mon, Sep 19, 2011 2:21:35am |
re: #29 RogueOne
Back at ya
I’m in cruise mode.
FT’s music selection is a part of my morning wakeup drill- that and coffee
| 31 |
Sol Berdinowitz Mon, Sep 19, 2011 2:31:34am |
Eleven users! We got a football team now!
32 |
RogueOne Mon, Sep 19, 2011 2:43:18am |
re: #27 BongCrodny
I’ve got more entertainment value out of Netflix than any other entertainment choice I’ve made in years.
But I’m really beginning to believe that Wall Street’s sole purpose these days is to fuck things up.
I’ve only used Netflix for the streaming. Do people still watch DVD’s?
33 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Sep 19, 2011 2:55:37am |
re: #32 RogueOne
I’ve only used Netflix for the streaming. Do people still watch DVD’s?
The 8 Track in my car doesn’t let me “watch” anything!!
| 34 |
RogueOne Mon, Sep 19, 2011 2:56:10am |
The Charlie Sheen roast is tonight, set your DVR’s!
| 35 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Sep 19, 2011 2:56:57am |
re: #31 ralphieboy
Eleven users! We got a football team now!
I’m not playing center
(not after the last time I bent over in front of another guy)
(((NTTAWWT!!!))
| 36 |
RogueOne Mon, Sep 19, 2011 3:03:28am |
re: #35 sattv4u2
Can you believe how well Cam Newton is starting off his career? He’s been impressive.
| 37 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Sep 19, 2011 3:12:36am |
re: #36 RogueOne
Can you believe how well Cam Newton is starting off his career? He’s been impressive.
Especially yesterday, seeing they were playing the Packers
| 38 |
RogueOne Mon, Sep 19, 2011 3:14:47am |
re: #37 sattv4u2
Especially yesterday, seeing they were playing the Packers
The best moment of the day yesterday was watching Vick being helped to the locker rooms. I’d like to see him get broken into little pieces this year. I can hold a grudge when it’s necessary.
| 39 |
RogueOne Mon, Sep 19, 2011 3:15:18am |
re: #37 sattv4u2
Oh, and I was rooting for the Pats yesterday. It hurt a little but I can’t stand Philip Rivers.
| 40 |
RogueOne Mon, Sep 19, 2011 3:20:05am |
The man who would be veep
thehill.com
The battle for the Republican presidential nomination is just heating up. But the choice of running mate is as good as settled, at least if the Beltway buzz is to be believed.
Many party insiders feel that the attractions of Sen. Marco Rubio (Fla.) for the second spot on the ticket are irresistible.
“Right now, he is head and shouders above everybody else,” Florida-based GOP strategist Rick Wilson told The Hill. (Wilson supported Rubio during his 2010 Senate bid, but did not work for the campaign.)
I think Romney could carry FL without Rubio, I’m not so sure about Perry. I wonder who Romney would like as a VP candidate. Would he grab for Rubio when he can carry FL on his own or grab someone from a state he needs, like PA or NJ.
| 41 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Sep 19, 2011 3:28:49am |
re: #39 RogueOne
Oh, and I was rooting for the Pats yesterday. It hurt a little but I can’t stand Philip Rivers.
Yeah
Brady had an off day! After throwing for 500+ yards last week, he only had 425 yesterday
BENCH HIM!!
| 42 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Sep 19, 2011 3:30:51am |
re: #40 RogueOne
The man who would be veep
[Link: thehill.com…]I think Romney could carry FL without Rubio, I’m not so sure about Perry. I wonder who Romney would like as a VP candidate. Would he grab for Rubio when he can carry FL on his own or grab someone from a state he needs, like PA or NJ.
Rubio has many more positives for Romney (or whoever) than just the Florida angle
he would cover Romneys right,,,, he’s Latino,,, he blunts the “Mormon” criticism Romney may endure from both in and out of the party
| 43 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Sep 19, 2011 3:36:24am |
re: #38 RogueOne
The best moment of the day yesterday was watching Vick being helped to the locker rooms. I’d like to see him get broken into little pieces this year. I can hold a grudge when it’s necessary.
I’m ambivalent RE: Vick
What he did was disgusting, no doubt (ESPECIALLY in that I’m a dog lover,,, have two now ,,, have and will take in strays/ fosters all the time)
OTOH , he did pay the price ,, did serve his time,,, etc
| 44 |
RogueOne Mon, Sep 19, 2011 3:36:50am |
re: #42 sattv4u2
Rubio has many more positives for Romney (or whoever) than just the Florida angle
he would cover Romneys right,,, he’s Latino,,, he blunts the “Mormon” criticism Romney may endure from both in and out of the party
All true but I don’t think a lot of people vote for the presidential candidate based on the VP except those from their home state. Cheney helped Bush (in the same way Biden helped Obama) and Palin helped McCain but they would have both been better, IMO, to pick someone that could have helped them pick up a state. For example, if Bush had picked Tom Ridge from PA I don’t think we would have had a fight over FL.
| 45 |
RogueOne Mon, Sep 19, 2011 3:37:46am |
re: #43 sattv4u2
I’m ambivalent RE: Vick
What he did was henious, no doubt (ESPECIALLY in that I’m a dog lover,,, have two now ,,, have and will take in strays/ fosters all the time)
OTOH , he did pay the price ,, did serve his time,,, etc
That means the state needs to cut him a 2nd chance, which I support, but I don’t have to give him one. I’m still rooting for karma to run him over with a bus.
46 |
RadicalModerate Mon, Sep 19, 2011 3:38:09am |
Three guesses which network censored a comedy routine poking fun at them?
EXCLUSIVE: The opening video for tonight’s Primetime Emmy Awards on News Corp-owned Fox was supposed to feature 30 Rock star Alec Baldwin playing a fictional president of television. But after a joke about News Corp topper Rupert Murdoch and the ongoing UK phone-hacking scandal involving his media empire was cut from the pretaped bit, Baldwin pulled out. He was replaced at the last minute by Star Trek veteran Leonard Nimoy, who re-did the skit sans the News Corp joke.
| 47 |
OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Mon, Sep 19, 2011 3:41:30am |
re: #40 RogueOne
The man who would be veep
[Link: thehill.com…]I think Romney could carry FL without Rubio, I’m not so sure about Perry. I wonder who Romney would like as a VP candidate. Would he grab for Rubio when he can carry FL on his own or grab someone from a state he needs, like PA or NJ.
Especially since nobody but the dumb confederates will buy that old pandering/tokenism act. Perry better write off Florida, if part of his schtick is knocking Medicare.
| 48 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Sep 19, 2011 3:42:21am |
re: #44 RogueOne
All true but I don’t think a lot of people vote for the presidential candidate based on the VP except those from their home state. Cheney helped Bush (in the same way Biden helped Obama) and Palin helped McCain but they would have both been better, IMO, to pick someone that could have helped them pick up a state. For example, if Bush had picked Tom Ridge from PA I don’t think we would have had a fight over FL.
I think the picking a VP to pick up “his” state is passe. Last time it was needed/ really worked was Kennedy with Johnson (and even that wasn’t “just” to pick up Texas,, it was for the entire south, to help blunt the “Catholic” stigma against Kennedy, and for Johnsons experience/ contacts)
Nowadays, with the 24/7 news cycle, the internet, et al, all these people are “known” to us nationally, not just in their states
| 49 |
RogueOne Mon, Sep 19, 2011 3:45:15am |
re: #48 sattv4u2
You trying to say I’m old? I can read between the lines butthole///
| 50 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Sep 19, 2011 3:46:16am |
re: #49 RogueOne
You trying to say I’m old? I can read between the lines butthole///
Hey ,,,, at the time ,, MY “knock” on Kennedy was that he was a KID!!!
:)
| 51 |
RogueOne Mon, Sep 19, 2011 3:49:45am |
I hear Bill Clinton is looking into the possibility of running for office in Italy:
Silvio Berlusconi wiretaps reveal boast of spending night with eight women
guardian.co.uk
Magistrates investigating an alleged prostitution ring in Italy have published wiretaps in which Silvio Berlusconi boasts of spending the night with eight women and complains that meetings with Gordon Brown and the Pope are interfering with his partying.
The wiretaps were released at the conclusion of an investigation into entrepreneur Gianpaolo Tarantini, who is accused of paying women to sleep with Berlusconi, 74, at his homes in 2008 and 2009. The Italian prime minister is not under investigation, although the wiretaps throw doubt on Berlusconi’s claims that he has never paid for sex.
| 52 |
BongCrodny Mon, Sep 19, 2011 3:57:51am |
re: #32 RogueOne
I’ve only used Netflix for the streaming. Do people still watch DVD’s?
I had the DVD option, until they doubled the price. I only watched four or five movies per month via the DVD option, so it didn’t make sense to do that any longer.
| 53 |
RogueOne Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:01:43am |
re: #11 Lidane
A bit of late night humor for my fellow Lizards, except I think the author is actually serious:
The comments are hilarious.
oh shit, I scored an 8 out of the 14 signs. All this time I thought those might be signs of a sex addiction (that way my behavior isn’t my fault) and it turns out I might be gay?
| 54 |
RogueOne Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:02:32am |
re: #52 BongCrodny
I had the DVD option, until they doubled the price. I only watched four or five movies per month via the DVD option, so it didn’t make sense to do that any longer.
Have you tried the streaming? It’s awfully handy.
| 55 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:03:19am |
re: #53 RogueOne
oh shit, I scored an 8 out of the 14 signs. All this time I thought those might be signs of a sex addiction (that way my behavior isn’t my fault) and it turns out I might be gay?
I’m not gay
But I think my boyfriend is!!
/
| 56 |
BongCrodny Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:03:59am |
re: #54 RogueOne
Have you tried the streaming? It’s awfully handy.
That’s what I meant; I kept the streaming option.
I would never have thought to watch “Hobo With A Shotgun” otherwise, so there you have it.
57 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:05:16am |
re: #53 RogueOne
oh shit, I scored an 8 out of the 14 signs. All this time I thought those might be signs of a sex addiction (that way my behavior isn’t my fault) and it turns out I might be gay?
That was a great wake-up article, my wife and I are analyzing it now.
Loved the author’s bio-block:
About The Author
Stephenson Billings is an Investigative Journalist, Motivational Children’s Party Entertainer and Antique Soda Bottle Collector all in one special, blessed package! Facebook me here or Fanmail me: Stephenson@Christwire.org !
| 58 |
RogueOne Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:06:07am |
re: #56 BongCrodny
That’s what I meant; I kept the streaming option.
I would never have thought to watch “Hobo With A Shotgun” otherwise, so there you have it.
+1 for Hobo with a shotgun! I like the access to a lot of old tv shows. I’m still working my way through 2 of my old fav’s, Rockford Files and Buffy.
| 59 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:06:39am |
re: #55 sattv4u2
I’m not gay
But I think my boyfriend is!!
/
Hmmm.. Your response sounds sarcastic and ironic to me.
60 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:08:21am |
Dear Minnesota Vikings,
Thank you for not realizing there are actually two halves to a football game.
Love,
CCA.
Morning honcos.
| 61 |
RogueOne Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:08:34am |
re: #57 Decatur Deb
That was a great wake-up article, my wife and I are analyzing it now.
Loved the author’s bio-block:
About The Author
Stephenson Billings is an Investigative Journalist, Motivational Children’s Party Entertainer and Antique Soda Bottle Collector all in one special, blessed package! Facebook me here or Fanmail me: Stephenson@Christwire.org !
I think “antique soda bottle collector” should be on the list.
| 62 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:10:37am |
re: #61 RogueOne
I think “antique soda bottle collector” should be on the list.
I’m impressed that he did it without mentioning Liza Minnelli.
| 63 |
BongCrodny Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:10:44am |
re: #57 Decatur Deb
That was a great wake-up article, my wife and I are analyzing it now.
Loved the author’s bio-block:
About The Author
Stephenson Billings is an Investigative Journalist, Motivational Children’s Party Entertainer and Antique Soda Bottle Collector all in one special, blessed package! Facebook me here or Fanmail me: Stephenson@Christwire.org !
I’m gonna take a guess and offer that 100% of all men answer “yes” to at least four of those questions.
Hell, no, I ain’t gonna tell which ones!
| 64 |
RogueOne Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:11:07am |
re: #62 Decatur Deb
I’m impressed that he did it without mentioning Liza Minnelli.
There was a good joke in there about “blessed package” but I let it slide.
| 65 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:12:04am |
re: #63 BongCrodny
I’m gonna take a guess and offer that 100% of all men answer “yes” to at least four of those questions.
Hell, no, I ain’t gonna tell which ones!
I was in deep doo-doo until he listed ‘fastidious around the house’.
| 66 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:13:05am |
re: #64 RogueOne
There was a good joke in there about “blessed package” but I let it slide.
Gotta book him to motivate our next children’s party.
| 67 |
RogueOne Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:13:28am |
re: #66 Decatur Deb
Gotta book him to motivate our next children’s party.
I hear he has a great hand puppet show.
| 68 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:14:16am |
re: #60 Cannadian Club Akbar
Dear Minnesota Vikings,
Thank you for not realizing there are actually two halves to a football game.
Love,
CCA.
Morning honcos.
“With the 1st pick of the 2012 NFL Draft, the Indianapolis Colts pick Andrew Luck, Quarterback, Stanford”
| 69 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:14:32am |
re: #67 RogueOne
I hear he has a great hand puppet show.
He bills it as “A Tribute to John Wayne Gacy”.
| 70 |
BongCrodny Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:14:49am |
re: #58 RogueOne
+1 for Hobo with a shotgun! I like the access to a lot of old tv shows. I’m still working my way through 2 of my old fav’s, Rockford Files and Buffy.
I’ve re-watched LOST, and the five seasons of Doctor Who, and am now watching Firefly. There are so many streaming options (at least for packaged television seasons) it’s tough to decide what to watch next.
| 71 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:16:01am |
re: #68 sattv4u2
OMG!!! The Eagles are the greatest team EVAH!! Just ask them!!!
| 72 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:17:06am |
I just weep for all you Lizards who got a gay rep for staying up all night sarc’ing on LGF.
73 |
Vicious Babushka Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:17:28am |
re: #25 Varek Raith
Netflix renames DVD-by-mail service, adds video games
Ah, the old “rename our company and pretend we now got a good rep trick”.
;)
I think Netflix “instant watch” streaming movies are Teh Suck.
| 74 |
Vicious Babushka Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:18:43am |
re: #32 RogueOne
I’ve only used Netflix for the streaming. Do people still watch DVD’s?
I have a Blu-Ray player.
| 75 |
RogueOne Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:20:12am |
re: #74 Alouette
Have you had problems using the streaming? I’ve always had a nice picture and no buffering.
| 76 |
RogueOne Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:22:11am |
re: #71 Cannadian Club Akbar
OMG!!! The Eagles are the greatest team EVAH!! Just ask them!!!
Speaking of surprisingly good starts, how about the Lions? If they can keep Stafford on the field they might end up in the playoffs.
77 |
iceweasel Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:22:28am |
Sorry Redheads, Sperm Banks Don’t Want Your Donations
Apparently being in a special club with the likes of Julianne Moore, Conan O’Brien, and Dana Scully doesn’t mean redheads have it easy. Everyday our flame-haired friends are experiencing discrimination when they try to make a donation at the sperm bank.
Sad.
Good morning LGF! Please change the salutation to be in keeping with your time zone.
| 78 |
BongCrodny Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:24:09am |
re: #61 RogueOne
I think “antique soda bottle collector” should be on the list.
“Now, kids, this is a Grape Nehi bottle. Did you know that Grap Nehi was the soda of choice of Corporal Radar O’Reilly in M*A*S*H? Yes, it was. And over here we have a vintage 1954 Royal Crown bottle from the Oklahoma City area. And this is my prized possession, a 1958 Diet-Rite soda bottle. Diet Rite, of course, was the first diet soda introduced in the United States, and…”
| 79 |
RogueOne Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:24:51am |
re: #77 iceweasel
Sorry Redheads, Sperm Banks Don’t Want Your Donations
Sad.
Good morning LGF! Please change the salutation to be in keeping with your time zone.
That is sad. I have a real thing for redheads.
| 80 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:25:55am |
re: #71 Cannadian Club Akbar
OMG!!! The Eagles are the greatest team EVAH!! Just ask them!!!
((from earlier)))
Tom Brady had an off day! After throwing for 500+ yards last week, he only had 425 yesterday
BENCH HIM!!
| 81 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:26:38am |
re: #76 RogueOne
Speaking of surprisingly good starts, how about the Lions? If they can keep Stafford on the field they might end up in the playoffs.
Years ago, the Bucs and the Cardinals both had great records in a 16 game run. But they both started mid-season. The Lions finished 4-0 last year. We’ll see.
| 82 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:26:57am |
re: #79 RogueOne
That is sad. I have a real thing for redheads.
Anne Margaret was an ,, umm,, inspiration to me as a teen!!
google.com
| 83 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:27:59am |
re: #80 sattv4u2
((from earlier)))
Tom Brady had an off day! After throwing for 500+ yards last week, he only had 425 yesterdayBENCH HIM!!
They played the fucking Miami game here yesterday. BLA!!! But I watched baseball instead.:)
| 84 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:28:19am |
re: #77 iceweasel
Sorry Redheads, Sperm Banks Don’t Want Your Donations
Sad.
Good morning LGF! Please change the salutation to be in keeping with your time zone.
*These findings not valid in Counties Mayo, Limerick, and Tipperary.
It’s spooky that people would try to control outcomes to that level of resolution.
| 85 |
iceweasel Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:30:07am |
re: #84 Decatur Deb
*These findings not valid in Counties Mayo, Limerick, and Tipperary.
It’s spooky that people would try to control outcomes to that level of resolution.
It is a little creepy. I guess parents want their baby to share their hair and eye colour?
| 86 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:32:23am |
re: #84 Decatur Deb
*These findings not valid in Counties Mayo, Limerick, and Tipperary.
It’s spooky that people would try to control outcomes to that level of resolution.
Is it that, or is it simply supply/ demand!?!?
(not minimizing the issue with the word “simply’, btw,,, just asking if a sperm bank has little to no requests for a particular characteristic trait, why would they “stock’ up on it”?)
| 87 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:34:19am |
re: #85 iceweasel
It is a little creepy. I guess parents want their baby to share their hair and eye colour?
“Let’s see..the physicist is on special, but I really want the cheerleader…”
| 88 |
Vicious Babushka Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:34:34am |
re: #75 RogueOne
Have you had problems using the streaming? I’ve always had a nice picture and no buffering.
I get buffering and poor picture quality.
| 89 |
RogueOne Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:34:41am |
re: #86 sattv4u2
Is it that, or is it simply supply/ demand!?!?
(not minimizing the issue with the word “simply’, btw,,, just asking if a sperm bank has little to no requests for a particular characteristic trait, why would they “stock’ up on it”?)
Survival seeds. When humanity starts to die out we’ll need redhead seeds to start over.
| 90 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:36:11am |
re: #86 sattv4u2
Is it that, or is it simply supply/ demand!?!?
(not minimizing the issue with the word “simply’, btw,,, just asking if a sperm bank has little to no requests for a particular characteristic trait, why would they “stock’ up on it”?)
re: #89 RogueOne
Survival seeds. When humanity starts to die out we’ll need redhead seeds to start over.
Stock up on non-hybrid heirloom seeds.
| 91 |
OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:36:21am |
re: #85 iceweasel
It is a little creepy. I guess parents want their baby to share their hair and eye colour?
Yeah, but who they foolin’?
I don’t understand that kind of weirdness.
92 |
Flounder Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:36:54am |
re: #77 iceweasel
Well I guess the saying, “treated like a red-headed step child” has some real meaning.
| 93 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:39:12am |
re: #92 Shropshire_Slasher
Well I guess the saying, “treated like a red-headed step child” has some real meaning.
Thats why, when I went to the sperm bank, I asked for the Rented Mule option!
| 94 |
RogueOne Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:39:30am |
The only red headed girl I have around anymore:
Image: shasta2.JPG
She looked sad there (probably because they were calling her “shasta”). She was at the rescue for an entire year because she has a tail.
| 95 |
iceweasel Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:45:02am |
re: #94 RogueOne
The only red headed girl I have around anymore:
Image: shasta2.JPGShe looked sad there (probably because they were calling her “shasta”). She was at the rescue for an entire year because she has a tail.
So cute!
| 96 |
RogueOne Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:47:46am |
| 97 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:49:13am |
re: #96 RogueOne
She’s a very sweet girl A 65lb killer lapdog.
Speaking of.. Ours has upped his demands to morning and evening hikes. BBL.
| 98 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:50:16am |
This is on Huffpo. Check out this line:
This article appeared in the October 3, 2011 edition of The Nation.
Magic!!
thenation.com
99 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:51:13am |
| 100 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:52:06am |
re: #99 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Who wants a baby that explodes when sun hits it?
/
Splody Babies would be a good name for a band.
| 102 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:53:08am |
re: #99 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Who wants a baby that explodes when sun hits it?
/
One Italian Astronaut to the other
“Lets go to the sun”
“We can’t. It’s too hot”
“It;s okay. We’ll go at night!”
| 103 |
RogueOne Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:53:21am |
| 104 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:53:52am |
| 106 |
Vicious Babushka Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:54:01am |
re: #98 Cannadian Club Akbar
This is on Huffpo. Check out this line:
This article appeared in the October 3, 2011 edition of The Nation.
Magic!!
[Link: www.thenation.com…]
Monthly publications tend to date their issues in advance.
| 107 |
iceweasel Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:55:04am |
re: #106 Alouette
Monthly publications tend to date their issues in advance.
So do some weeklies— at least, I know The New Yorker does.
| 108 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:55:12am |
re: #106 Alouette
Monthly publications tend to date their issues in advance.
That way, when you’re in the doctors waiting rooms, you won’t think you’re ready crappy old magazines ,,,, just crappy magazines
| 109 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:55:22am |
re: #106 Alouette
Monthly publications tend to date their issues in advance.
I know. I posted a page on this subject a month ago.
| 110 |
RogueOne Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:55:45am |
re: #104 sattv4u2
re: #105 iceweasel
I’ve been paying attention. In the last month my wife has had 3 of her co-workers move to Denver. One is living a mile from where I stayed for 6 months. I can see why they have so many outsiders moving in, there still isn’t a week that goes by that I don’t consider moving too.
| 111 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:58:28am |
re: #110 RogueOne
I’ve been paying attention. In the last month my wife has had 3 of her co-workers move to Denver. One is living a mile from where I stayed for 6 months. I can see why they have so many outsiders moving in, there still isn’t a week that goes by that I don’t consider moving too.
Nobody goes there anymore. It’s too crowded.
-Yogi Berra
| 112 |
iceweasel Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:58:59am |
My cat is sitting on the sofa beside me and drooling onto my right hand as I type. I think cats adapted to take advantage of their human servants.
| 113 |
RogueOne Mon, Sep 19, 2011 5:01:26am |
Rain has stopped here and my first appointment is in an hour. Time to get moving. Enjoy the rest of the day people!
| 114 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Sep 19, 2011 5:05:03am |
re: #112 iceweasel
My cat is sitting on the sofa beside me and drooling onto my right hand as I type. I think cats adapted to take advantage of their human servants.
(((note to self,, do NOT shake IceWeasels right hand!)))
| 115 |
thedopefishlives Mon, Sep 19, 2011 5:05:41am |
Morning Lizardim. Happy Monday from the wild north country. The Mrs. Fish and I definitely enjoyed our weekend getaway into the heart of the great wild north. Of course, the feline overlords were less than pleased when we got back, since they had no one to demand attention from.
| 116 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Sep 19, 2011 5:06:12am |
An Italian man who owned a hand-operated rotisserie (rotating spit for cooking meat) was barbecuing a chicken on a street corner when a hippie strolled by.
The hippie stood and watched for a couple of minutes and then said slowly, “Uh… I don’t want to bug you man, but your music’s stopped, and your monkey’s on fire.”
| 117 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Sep 19, 2011 5:08:28am |
decisions decisions
There’s more cereal in the box than I want for breakfast this a.m, but after I take as much as I want, there’s not enough left for another full serving!!
| 118 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Sep 19, 2011 5:09:24am |
re: #117 sattv4u2
Back yard bird food. That’s what I do with it.
| 119 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Sep 19, 2011 5:10:55am |
re: #118 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Back yard bird food. That’s what I do with it.
I’m at work,,,,,
I can just see my boss coming in later and saying “Satty,,, whats with all the cereal in the dish farm !?!?!”
| 120 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Mon, Sep 19, 2011 5:11:20am |
re: #117 sattv4u2
decisions decisions
There’s more cereal in the box than I want for breakfast this a.m, but after I take as much as I want, there’s not enough left for another full serving!!
I made a grilled cheese with egg and roast beef for breakfast yesterday. Yummy!!
| 121 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Sep 19, 2011 5:12:14am |
re: #120 Cannadian Club Akbar
I made a grilled cheese with egg and roast beef for breakfast yesterday. Yummy!!
whatthehelldoesthathavetodowithmycerealproblem!?!?!?
| 122 |
iceweasel Mon, Sep 19, 2011 5:12:59am |
re: #120 Cannadian Club Akbar
I made a grilled cheese with egg and roast beef for breakfast yesterday. Yummy!!
Grilled cheese = auto upding.
| 123 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Sep 19, 2011 5:13:53am |
re: #122 iceweasel
Grilled cheese = auto upding.
Auto upding for auto updinging grilled cheeses = auto upding
| 124 |
iceweasel Mon, Sep 19, 2011 5:14:37am |
re: #123 sattv4u2
Auto upding for auto updinging grilled cheeses = auto upding
We’re stuck in a recursive loop! And none of this helps you with your cereal problem!
| 125 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Sep 19, 2011 5:15:17am |
re: #124 iceweasel
We’re stuck in a recursive loop! And none of this helps you with your cereal problem!
I figured it out
I ated the rest!
{burp}
| 126 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Sep 19, 2011 5:18:53am |
Appears to be breaking news on CNN.
If a plane crashes at an airshow? It could be dangerous.
They’re interviewing an NTSB guy right now.
| 127 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Mon, Sep 19, 2011 5:21:45am |
re: #126 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Appears to be breaking news on CNN.
If a plane crashes at an airshow? It could be dangerous.
They’re interviewing an NTSB guy right now.
When they do the “Sun and Fun Fly in” in Lakeland, Lakeland Regional Airport becomes the busiest airport in the world for 2 days. I think they have a takeoff/landing every 42 seconds.
| 128 |
thedopefishlives Mon, Sep 19, 2011 5:23:24am |
| 129 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Mon, Sep 19, 2011 5:34:04am |
I always wondered what they taught at truck driving skools.
huffingtonpost.com
| 130 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Sep 19, 2011 5:37:59am |
OK. Will someone who is more hip than I give the breakdown on “Christwire”? I’ve just done a couple more of their articles and they can’t be real. The thought, spelling and grammar in the comments is just out of sync with the crazy crap in the articles.
131 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Sep 19, 2011 5:42:44am |
re: #130 Decatur Deb
It’s definitely satire. Many of the commenters don’t get that. Some of them are trying to join in on the satire and succeeding, others are failing.
| 132 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Sep 19, 2011 5:49:34am |
re: #131 Obdicut
It’s definitely satire. Many of the commenters don’t get that. Some of them are trying to join in on the satire and succeeding, others are failing.
Yeah—getting that. Seems kind of pointless, directing ridicule at fake insanity when there is so much genuine lunacy to mock. (Found the ‘Gay Hubby’ stuff to be dumb but credible in isolation.)
| 133 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Sep 19, 2011 5:51:28am |
re: #132 Decatur Deb
Yeah, it’s a lot of work, too. I don’t really get it. I guess the main point is to troll the actual religious extremists but I’m not sure how successful that can be.
| 134 |
thedopefishlives Mon, Sep 19, 2011 5:55:04am |
re: #133 Obdicut
Yeah, it’s a lot of work, too. I don’t really get it. I guess the main point is to troll the actual religious extremists but I’m not sure how successful that can be.
You’d be surprised. Being brought up in a setting that encouraged religious extremism, the folks that drink that Kool-aid are extremely susceptible to being trolled. They will suffer none to mock, impugn, or even cast dirty glances at their Most Holy Religion (tm).
| 135 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Sep 19, 2011 5:56:03am |
re: #134 thedopefishlives
Yeah, but what then? What does it matter?
| 136 |
thedopefishlives Mon, Sep 19, 2011 5:57:29am |
re: #135 Obdicut
Yeah, but what then? What does it matter?
That’s the whole point of trolling: There _is_ no point. It’s all for giggles, and once they’ve got their jollies, they move on. I’ve never really understood the troll culture on the Interwebs, and I am not a psychiatrist.
| 137 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Sep 19, 2011 6:01:24am |
re: #136 thedopefishlives
That’s the whole point of trolling: There _is_ no point. It’s all for giggles, and once they’ve got their jollies, they move on. I’ve never really understood the troll culture on the Interwebs, and I am not a psychiatrist.
If I really enjoyed pointlessness, I wouldn’t have retired to LGF.
| 138 |
thedopefishlives Mon, Sep 19, 2011 6:04:23am |
re: #137 Decatur Deb
If I really enjoyed pointlessness, I wouldn’t have retired to LGF.
If I wanted something pointless, I’d break a pencil.
| 139 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Sep 19, 2011 6:10:11am |
re: #136 thedopefishlives
That’s the whole point of trolling: There _is_ no point. It’s all for giggles, and once they’ve got their jollies, they move on. I’ve never really understood the troll culture on the Interwebs, and I am not a psychiatrist.
Don’t want to go all Culture-warrior, but we really have done some harm to ourselves with mass media. A jackass story is fun and instructional around a campfire, but gets worrisome when it’s filling the seats in a couple thousand cineplexes.
| 141 |
Vicious Babushka Mon, Sep 19, 2011 6:31:53am |
I started to watch an interesting movie last night. “The Conspirator” which is about the trial of Mary Surratt, who was convicted of being part of the conspiracy to assassinate Abraham Lincoln. The movie tried to make distinct parallels the Lincoln assassination and 9/11, especially the religious prejudice (anti-Catholic prejudice against Surratt, anti-Muslim after 9/11)
It was an OK movie, kind of boring at times. I’ll watch the rest of it tonight.
| 142 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Mon, Sep 19, 2011 6:34:22am |
This article is 3 days old, so if it has been posted, sorry. Oh, and I’m sorry for posting it.
latimes.com
| 143 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Sep 19, 2011 6:34:45am |
re: #141 Alouette
I liked the movie. Didn’t love it. Liked it.
If you haven’t seen “The Debt” yet; I highly recommend it.
| 144 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Sep 19, 2011 6:35:40am |
re: #140 Cannadian Club Akbar
D’oh!!
[Link: www.thesun.co.uk…]
What “Career” does that Ferrari have now ,, as a Yellow Submarine!?!?!
(and yes,, I know an alternate definition of career is a swift course , or speed, especially full)
| 145 |
Vicious Babushka Mon, Sep 19, 2011 6:36:51am |
re: #143 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I liked the movie. Didn’t love it. Liked it.
If you haven’t seen “The Debt” yet; I highly recommend it.
One thing bothered me slightly: the sets looked SO FAKE. Like the sets in “Defiance.” It just takes away your enjoyment of the movie which is supposed to look realistic.
| 146 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Sep 19, 2011 6:42:32am |
re: #145 Alouette
You obviously watch movies with more care than I. I was following the story. Honestly? I didn’t even notice a parallel with 911, other than the obvious freak out.
Personally, I think many of history’s total freak outs could parallel 911.
| 147 |
Vicious Babushka Mon, Sep 19, 2011 6:45:52am |
re: #146 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
You obviously watch movies with more care than I. I was following the story. Honestly? I didn’t even notice a parallel with 911, other than the obvious freak out.
Personally, I think many of history’s total freak outs could parallel 911.
The movie was clearly trying to show a parallel between 4/15/1865 and 9/11/2001. The anti-Catholic thing I did not know about, could that have been exaggerated?
148 |
darthstar Mon, Sep 19, 2011 6:47:12am |
re: #142 Cannadian Club Akbar
This article is 3 days old, so if it has been posted, sorry. Oh, and I’m sorry for posting it.
[Link: www.latimes.com…]
Don’t do that. Stories about creepy-crawlies going up penises give me nightmares.
| 149 |
darthstar Mon, Sep 19, 2011 6:47:34am |
Mornin’ everyone…hope you all had a good weekend.
150 |
lawhawk Mon, Sep 19, 2011 6:47:59am |
re: #146 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
There’s a good book about conspirators, anarchists, schemers and dreamers that I read a while back that has many parallels to the current sociopolitical and geopolitical plottings.
The World That Never Was: A True Story of Dreamers, Schemers, Anarchists, and Secret Agents
| 151 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Sep 19, 2011 6:48:57am |
re: #148 darthstar
Don’t do that. Stories about creepy-crawlies going up penises give me nightmares.
The Itsy Bitsy Spider Crawled Up The ,,,,,,,,,,
| 152 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Sep 19, 2011 6:49:30am |
re: #147 Alouette
The movie was clearly trying to draw a parallel between 4/15/1865 and 9/11/2001. The anti-Catholic thing I did not know about, could that have been exaggerated?
Needs some digging to measure that. I noted that last night one of the educational channels was treating the conspiracy (a pretty common tie-in to a mass-market film). It underlined that Booth used Catholic services to cover his meeting with his recruits at least once.
| 153 |
Vicious Babushka Mon, Sep 19, 2011 6:49:51am |
re: #150 lawhawk
There’s a good book about conspirators, anarchists, schemers and dreamers that I read a while back that has many parallels to the current sociopolitical and geopolitical plottings.
The World That Never Was: A True Story of Dreamers, Schemers, Anarchists, and Secret Agents
“Schemers and dreamers” is how American Girl dolls describe their characters.
It’s a Conspiracy!1!
| 154 |
darthstar Mon, Sep 19, 2011 6:58:06am |
re: #151 sattv4u2
The Itsy Bitsy Spider Crawled Up The ,,,
You know the guy was probably enjoying the little fuckers nibbling on his penis and gave the eel a straight shot to the bladder.
| 155 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Sep 19, 2011 6:58:59am |
| 156 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Sep 19, 2011 6:59:46am |
Here’s the Google return on Nativism Lincoln Booth Catholic. It would be a life’s work to sort out the inevitable biases from the various directions in such a question.
| 157 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Mon, Sep 19, 2011 6:59:57am |
re: #154 darthstar
You know the guy was probably enjoying the little fuckers nibbling on his penis and gave the eel a straight shot to the bladder.
This is my favorite part of the article:
This, the writer points out, is not the first time such an incident has been described: A teenage boy had to undergo emergency surgery to remove a 0.79-inch fish that climbed into his urethra while he was holding it and urinating.
(Superfluous health advice of the day: Don’t hold live animals while you’re relieving yourself. No matter how good an idea it seems at the time.)
Heh.
| 158 |
darthstar Mon, Sep 19, 2011 7:02:21am |
re: #157 Cannadian Club Akbar
This is my favorite part of the article:
This, the writer points out, is not the first time such an incident has been described: A teenage boy had to undergo emergency surgery to remove a 0.79-inch fish that climbed into his urethra while he was holding it and urinating.(Superfluous health advice of the day: Don’t hold live animals while you’re relieving yourself. No matter how good an idea it seems at the time.)
Heh.
Well, at least the kid didn’t get caught masturbating…that would have been embarrassing. Urinating…right.
| 159 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Mon, Sep 19, 2011 7:05:04am |
re: #158 darthstar
Well, at least the kid didn’t get caught masturbating…that would have been embarrassing. Urinating…right.
A friend from high skool used to skip lunch and go to his house with his GF. His step dad came home one time. He put his GF under the bed and jumped into the closet. His step dad found him naked in the closet. My friend never pointed out that his GF was under the bed.
| 160 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Sep 19, 2011 7:07:08am |
re: #159 Cannadian Club Akbar
A friend from high skool used to skip lunch and go to his house with his GF. His step dad came home one time. He put his GF under the bed and jumped into the closet. His step dad found him naked in the closet. My friend never pointed out that his GF was under the bed.
True gentleman.
| 161 |
darthstar Mon, Sep 19, 2011 7:07:16am |
Bottom line (and then I’ll let this story go): Penises are sacred to their owners. Nothing gets in the front door without permission - or at least a little help and encouragement. Hell, getting swabbed by a doc in college (negative!) was the most trauma I would ever dream of subjecting it to. Eels and fish? Those guys asked for it.
| 162 |
darthstar Mon, Sep 19, 2011 7:09:09am |
re: #159 Cannadian Club Akbar
A friend from high skool used to skip lunch and go
to his house with his GF. His step dad came home one time. He put his GF under the bed and jumped into the closethome to masturbate. His step dad found him naked in the closet.My friend never pointed out that his GF was under the bed.
Your friend lied to you.
| 163 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Mon, Sep 19, 2011 7:09:14am |
re: #161 darthstar
Bottom line (and then I’ll let this story go): Penises are sacred to their owners. Nothing gets in the front door without permission - or at least a little help and encouragement. Hell, getting swabbed by a doc in college (negative!) was the most trauma I would ever dream of subjecting it to. Eels and fish? Those guys asked for it.
Peter Rooter, that’s the name. Flush those troubles down the drain. Rotten peter, rotten peter.
(h/t-cheech and chong)
| 164 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Mon, Sep 19, 2011 7:17:09am |
this guy did this all wrong.
/
local10.com
| 165 |
lawhawk Mon, Sep 19, 2011 7:23:10am |
Image is everything, and yet there was one overlooked piece of imagery from this past weekend - and Mahmoud Abbas’ speech from Ramallah where he was pushing to declare statehood at the UN this week.
Take a good look at the mural behind Abbas.
It’s a photo of Jerusalem and it shows a Palestinian flag in tow behind a dove.
Yet, the flag isn’t flying over the West Bank and lands that diplomats and observers would expect to be part of a Palestinian entity.
It’s flying over Israel - within the Green Line and over the Old City. It shows the true aspirations of the Palestinians, regardless of whether they’re Fatah, Hamas, or Islamic Jihad.
It’s why Israel doesn’t have a partner in peace; the Palestinians continue to delegitimize Israel’s right to exist at every opportunity.
166 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Sep 19, 2011 7:29:48am |
Obama to give another budget/jobs speech….
t.co
“Pass this bill, pass the bill, pass it”
| 167 |
Vicious Babushka Mon, Sep 19, 2011 7:29:59am |
re: #165 lawhawk
Image is everything, and yet there was one overlooked piece of imagery from this past weekend - and Mahmoud Abbas’ speech from Ramallah where he was pushing to declare statehood at the UN this week.
Take a good look at the mural behind Abbas.
It’s a photo of Jerusalem and it shows a Palestinian flag in tow behind a dove.
Yet, the flag isn’t flying over the West Bank and lands that diplomats and observers would expect to be part of a Palestinian entity.
It’s flying over Israel - within the Green Line and over the Old City. It shows the true aspirations of the Palestinians, regardless of whether they’re Fatah, Hamas, or Islamic Jihad.
It’s why Israel doesn’t have a partner in peace; the Palestinians continue to delegitimize Israel’s right to exist at every opportunity.
Here is a perfect example of Palestinian Projection.
| 168 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Mon, Sep 19, 2011 7:33:01am |
Foo Fighters protest Westboro Baptist nuts.
nbcactionnews.com
169 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Mon, Sep 19, 2011 7:33:42am |
| 170 |
Vicious Babushka Mon, Sep 19, 2011 7:37:21am |
171 |
Romantic Heretic Mon, Sep 19, 2011 7:37:27am |
re: #32 RogueOne
I’ve only used Netflix for the streaming. Do people still watch DVD’s?
My wife and I are watching Babylon 5 on DVD at the moment.
| 172 |
sattv4u2 Mon, Sep 19, 2011 7:38:24am |
| 173 |
Vicious Babushka Mon, Sep 19, 2011 7:44:21am |
And the relentless promotion of Miss Hitler Cookies continues. (WTF? How much is Roseanne’s PR team paying “The Forward” and other media outlets? This is getting ridiculous)
| 174 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Mon, Sep 19, 2011 7:47:11am |
re: #173 Alouette
Tom Arnold really earned the money he got from her.
175 |
Shiplord Kirel Mon, Sep 19, 2011 7:48:01am |
re: #126 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Appears to be breaking news on CNN.
If a plane crashes at an airshow? It could be dangerous.
They’re interviewing an NTSB guy right now.
The breaking news is that the aircraft did indeed have video and data recording devices. Some memory cards have been recovered at the scene, but the data were also being sent by telemetry to the ground crew and NTSB has that as well. The story treats this as unusual for a racing aircraft, but I rather think it is SOP these days.
Media coverage of this crash has been a carnival of ignorance. An AP headline on Yahoo initially described the plane as a “jet,” leading to raucous howls of derision even from the notoriously brain-dead Yahoo commenters. It was soon changed but the same story treated the news that the aircraft had been radically modified from its military configuration as some sort of revelation.
176 |
Carlos Diggler Mon, Sep 19, 2011 7:50:50am |
Lawdible: statement implying that further discussion of a subject could result in litigation.
| 178 |
Shiplord Kirel Mon, Sep 19, 2011 7:58:39am |
The longest standing aviation speed record is that for piston-engine seaplanes, at 709 KPH (440 MPH). This was set by the Macchi-Castoldi M.C.72 on October 23rd 1934 and has not been exceeded to this day.
At the time, it was an absolute speed record, and stood as such for five years.
179 |
_RememberTonyC Mon, Sep 19, 2011 8:00:56am |
re: #177 Killgore Trout
“Pass it right away”
Former economic advisor to the President Christina Romer was unavailable for comment
| 180 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Mon, Sep 19, 2011 8:01:23am |
re: #177 Killgore Trout
“Pass it right away”
I don’t know anything about the author of this piece.
latimesblogs.latimes.com
| 181 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Sep 19, 2011 8:03:06am |
re: #180 Cannadian Club Akbar
I don’t know anything about the author of this piece.
[Link: latimesblogs.latimes.com…]
Meh, it’s never going to pass. The GOP might pick out a few provisions but nothing substantive is going to happen.
| 182 |
_RememberTonyC Mon, Sep 19, 2011 8:08:28am |
One thing I have felt for awhile is that the POTUS had the wrong “Number One item” on his agenda when he took office. “His” number one item was health care reform, but the country’s most urgent problem was the economy. It was true then and it’s true now. Had he put health care reform on the back burner until the economy got better, I think our economy would be much stronger now. Maybe not perfect, but better than where we are now.
183 |
Political Atheist Mon, Sep 19, 2011 8:10:21am |
re: #181 Killgore Trout
Meh, it’s never going to pass. The GOP might pick out a few provisions but nothing substantive is going to happen.
Why was this not so urgent in his first year? One year closer to a re-election fight maybe, or perhaps a misplaced sense of priority. (That’s my conclusion) Unemployment sure kills your healthcare fast. The fastest way to get medical care back to people who do not have it in get them jobs so they can buy it or get it with the job.
I can only speculate how much further we would be in a jobs plan if jobs had been a priority up there with TARP and ahead of medical reform.
| 184 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Sep 19, 2011 8:11:53am |
re: #182 _RememberTonyC
One thing I have felt for awhile is that the POTUS had the wrong “Number One item” on his agenda when he took office. “His” number one item was health care reform, but the country’s most urgent problem was the economy. It was true then and it’s true now. Had he put health care reform on the back burner until the economy got better, I think our economy would be much stronger now. Maybe not perfect, but better than where we are now.
I don’t think so. TARP and stimulus went through just fine but they weren’t enough. We need to make a sustained effort to keep the economy going. Obama had a once in a lifetime opportunity to pass healthcare reform. It should have been passed back in the 80’s, it might even be too late now.
| 185 |
Political Atheist Mon, Sep 19, 2011 8:12:21am |
re: #182 _RememberTonyC
GMTA
I could not agree more. And when I argued at the time this was backwards it was a quite unpopular point.
| 186 |
_RememberTonyC Mon, Sep 19, 2011 8:12:30am |
| 187 |
Shiplord Kirel Mon, Sep 19, 2011 8:12:39am |
| 188 |
Political Atheist Mon, Sep 19, 2011 8:16:14am |
re: #184 Killgore Trout
TARP was all about saving the banks and (as it turned out) bankers-all quite necessary I agree. The stimulus was needed, but in itself was held back by fundamentals left unchallenged, like offshore incentives, loss of manufacturing capacity, and wildly unfair trade policies. Wildly unfair to American employers, manufacturers and employees.
| 189 |
_RememberTonyC Mon, Sep 19, 2011 8:16:26am |
re: #184 Killgore Trout
I don’t think so. TARP and stimulus went through just fine but they weren’t enough. We need to make a sustained effort to keep the economy going. Obama had a once in a lifetime opportunity to pass healthcare reform. It should have been passed back in the 80’s, it might even be too late now.
I remember feeling at the time that the health care initiative was going to be costly, and nobody really knew how costly. And I remember hearing from small business owners that the uncertainty of their health care costs was a reason they would be very “bare bones” when it came to hiring people. I think there was a ripple effect from that health care situation that affected areas it was not expected to affect.
| 190 |
lawhawk Mon, Sep 19, 2011 8:16:33am |
re: #175 Shiplord Kirel
Indeed. The headlines about the Reno crash are beyond ridiculous.
It’s like a crash involving a NASCAR racing car. Sure, it’s supposedly a stock car, but it’s been so highly modified that it barely resembles the car upon which is was based. Time was, it used the same body type as the standard car, but now you can’t see the resemblance.
Same for the engines.
With these racing planes, they were built from an existing airframe, but they’ve been so highly modified that they can’t be considered the same plane. They have had the wings, canopies, engines, and other components so modified and rebuilt from their wartime configurations that they can’t and shouldn’t be considered the same plane.
| 191 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Sep 19, 2011 8:18:13am |
re: #183 Rightwingconspirator
Why was this not so urgent in his first year? One year closer to a re-election fight maybe, or perhaps a misplaced sense of priority. (That’s my conclusion) Unemployment sure kills your healthcare fast. The fastest way to get medical care back to people who do not have it in get them jobs so they can buy it or get it with the job.
I can only speculate how much further we would be in a jobs plan if jobs had been a priority up there with TARP and ahead of medical reform.
Well, I think part of the strategy is that entitlement reform and some of the major budget cuts require Republican counterbalance. The Dems on their own would have a hell of a time getting that done. In a normal political environmnet both sides would comprimise, get rid of the bush tax cuts for the rich while cutting entitlement spending. Both sides get something. The GOP throws a wrench into the gears by being unwilling to compromise so nothing’s going to get done.
| 192 |
lawhawk Mon, Sep 19, 2011 8:21:57am |
TARP and stimulus were only going to last so long as the enabling provisions let them. Everyone hoped and wished that would be sufficient - and that the economy would improve.
The history is different. The recession was much worse than anticipated, unemployment was much worse than anticipated, and the stimulus effects didn’t tamp down unemployment or provide as much stimulus as hoped for.
And now the stimulus package is pretty much over - the transfer payments have been spent, the infrastructure projects may still be underway, but the bulk of that money is by the boards.
The economy still hasn’t recovered, and the ongoing credit mess overseas weighs down the markets, and perhaps more importantly, the real estate markets domestically are weighing down on consumer spending, mobility, and all the remaining economic sectors that relate to real estate. Higher unemployment from the recession continues, and that too plays into the dismal real estate sector (which is considerably overbuilt in some parts of the country, but which needs growth in some parts and has contributed to largely stable pricing in places like NYC metro whereas the bottom fell out in NV, AZ, and FL among others).
| 193 |
_RememberTonyC Mon, Sep 19, 2011 8:23:07am |
So after hearing the POTUS’ speech (and before I head out for my 2.5 mile walk), I wanted to say that I was struck by the fact that he sounded frustrated that he has faced such opposition. He needs to get over it. He played the populist card, which is usually a winner for him, but that always works better when you are the challenger. He’s the boss now and he “owns” the economy whether he likes it or not. I think I’ll listen to some classic Tom Petty on today’s walk. Later all …
| 194 |
lawhawk Mon, Sep 19, 2011 8:23:14am |
re: #191 Killgore Trout
If nothing gets done, all the cuts expire in 2013 after the elections.
| 195 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Sep 19, 2011 8:23:23am |
re: #176 BigPapa
Lawdible: statement implying that further discussion of a subject could result in litigation.
We need a sniglet collection box.
| 196 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Sep 19, 2011 8:25:41am |
re: #193 _RememberTonyC
How one earth does he own the economy? The president is not a king.
| 197 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Sep 19, 2011 8:26:16am |
re: #178 Shiplord Kirel
The longest standing aviation speed record is that for piston-engine seaplanes, at 709 KPH (440 MPH). This was set by the Macchi-Castoldi M.C.72 on October 23rd 1934 and has not been exceeded to this day.
At the time, it was an absolute speed record, and stood as such for five years.
The Spitfire developed out of the Supermarine S6, part of that same seaplane racing era.
198 |
iossarian Mon, Sep 19, 2011 8:27:16am |
re: #196 Obdicut
How one earth does he own the economy? The president is not a king.
I think he meant in the sense of “talking heads on Fox say so, and the average voter is too uninterested to find out more”.
Fundamental weakness of a powerful legislative/prominent executive combination, obviously.
| 199 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Sep 19, 2011 8:27:40am |
re: #189 _RememberTonyC
I’m not sure why you think the health care initiative was ‘costly’. It reduced the project deficit.
As a small business owner, I can tell you that single-payer health care would be an amazingly good thing for me as a business owner. It would be great to be able to hire a full-time employee and not have to provide medical coverage. I can’t actually afford to hire someone and provide insurance for them.
Single payer would be a gigantic boon for small businesses.
| 200 |
iossarian Mon, Sep 19, 2011 8:30:12am |
re: #199 Obdicut
Yes, but we didn’t get single payer. And again, the fact that this is because of the Republicans is not something that the average voter will notice.
I think this column expresses it pretty accurately.
| 201 |
BongCrodny Mon, Sep 19, 2011 8:32:04am |
From Talking Points Memo:.
Sheriff Joe Arpaio Assigns ‘Cold Case Posse’ To Investigate Obama’s Birth Certificate
It’s never going to end, is it?
| 202 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Sep 19, 2011 8:32:12am |
re: #200 iossarian
True. But what we got was a small increment. People strangely act like if we didn’t pass it, we wouldn’t have had to be spending any money on health care.
The reality is that we already pay the costs of the uninsured. Directly, by subsidizing hospitals, indirectly, through higher insurance costs for those with insurance, and distantly, in the lost wages and other productivity that sick workers who can’t afford to get treatment bring.
We already have complete medical coverage in the US, we just have it in a very costly and ineffective manner. Yay.
| 203 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Sep 19, 2011 8:33:55am |
re: #200 iossarian
Yes, but we didn’t get single payer. And again, the fact that this is because of the Republicans is not something that the average voter will notice.
I think this column expresses it pretty accurately.
[Link: www.washingtonpost.com…]
The TPGOP has its 2012 strategy—Nothing Will Get Through. If it works for them, we are deeply screwed. We will also be screwed if newly-marginalized Dems adopt it for the years of the Perry administration.
| 204 |
iossarian Mon, Sep 19, 2011 8:34:26am |
| 205 |
Shiplord Kirel Mon, Sep 19, 2011 8:34:39am |
re: #201 BongCrodny
From Talking Points Memo:.
Sheriff Joe Arpaio Assigns ‘Cold Case Posse’ To Investigate Obama’s Birth Certificate
It’s never going to end, is it?
What a disgrace. I’m pretty sure Maricopa County has some unsolved murders these guys could be looking at instead.
| 206 |
Vicious Babushka Mon, Sep 19, 2011 8:34:50am |
re: #201 BongCrodny
From Talking Points Memo:.
Sheriff Joe Arpaio Assigns ‘Cold Case Posse’ To Investigate Obama’s Birth CertificateIt’s never going to end, is it?
Linky no worky
207 |
jaunte Mon, Sep 19, 2011 8:36:34am |
re: #200 iossarian
…the fact that the public still gives Obama’s individual policies high marks suggests that despite all the overall disapproval of Obama on the economy and jobs, the public is still prepared to hear him out on the topic. Even if things look very bleak right now, there’s still an opportunity for him win this battle, by getting some actual policies passed — they are popular, after all — or by driving home to the public who’s responsible for goverment paralysis in the face of the crisis.
The administration should start getting much more vigorous and straightforward about calling out the people blocking reform.
| 208 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Sep 19, 2011 8:38:57am |
re: #194 lawhawk
If nothing gets done, all the cuts expire in 2013 after the elections.
Good point. I guess I should have said nothing will change. The GOP’s new hostage taking strategy could result in those cuts being extended or made permanent depending on the value of the hostage. If Republicans find a way, they’ll make them permanent.
| 209 |
makeitstop Mon, Sep 19, 2011 8:39:49am |
| 211 |
jaunte Mon, Sep 19, 2011 8:42:07am |
re: #210 BongCrodny
“Sideshow Joe and the Birther Holdout Band”
| 212 |
BongCrodny Mon, Sep 19, 2011 8:42:16am |
re: #205 Shiplord Kirel
What a disgrace. I’m pretty sure Maricopa County has some unsolved murders these guys could be looking at instead.
Meth dealers, abusive husbands, perverts, rapists…
Nope. We’re gonna investigate the important stuff.
| 213 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Sep 19, 2011 8:43:32am |
re: #210 BongCrodny
Hmm…let me try again.
Worked.
I hope the TPs pour every dime they have into the effort.
214 |
bratwurst Mon, Sep 19, 2011 8:45:10am |
re: #212 BongCrodny
Meth dealers, abusive husbands, perverts, rapists…
Nope. We’re gonna investigate the important stuff.
You would think all of those headless bodies in the desert would demand SOME attention!
| 215 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Sep 19, 2011 8:50:51am |
Alec Baldwin walks out of Emmys after Fox removes Rupert Murdoch joke
Apparently, Fox was uncomfortable including a joke that Baldwin made that had to do with Murdoch and the much-publicized phone-hacking scandal, and they had it cut from Baldwin’s script. When EW talked to Fox, the network was very clear that the decision to cut the joke was made at the Fox level — not by anyone at News Corp. Fox also claims that the reason the joke was cut was not because of Murdoch’s name, but because it was in poor taste to make light of the serious allegations surrounding the phone-hacking scandal.
| 216 |
jaunte Mon, Sep 19, 2011 8:54:01am |
re: #215 Killgore Trout
You know it’s true, because of how serious Fox is about good taste.
| 217 |
iossarian Mon, Sep 19, 2011 8:54:44am |
re: #215 Killgore Trout
Poor widdle rupie can’t take a joke.
Should have thought of that before he took a gigantic shit on democracy.
| 219 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Sep 19, 2011 9:01:54am |
My daughter might be gay.
If I told you I was happy about it? I’d be lying.
220 |
allegro Mon, Sep 19, 2011 9:02:34am |
re: #218 Lidane
Yeah, after feeding his family he ONLY has about $400,000 left. If all those unwashed starving masses whine he might just not give them minimum wages jobs with no benefits. How dare they!
// no more patience with these assholes
221 |
William Barnett-Lewis Mon, Sep 19, 2011 9:03:08am |
re: #215 Killgore Trout
Painful to have to agree with Alex Baldwin…
| 223 |
Carlos Diggler Mon, Sep 19, 2011 9:03:53am |
Behind the poverty numbers: real lives, real pain
Last week, the Census Bureau released new figures showing that nearly one in six Americans lives in poverty — a record 46.2 million people. The poverty rate, pegged at 15.1 percent, is the highest of any major industrialized nation, and many experts believe it could get worse before it abates.
…..Overall, though, the figures seemed to be greeted with resignation, and political leaders in Washington pressed ahead with efforts to cut federal spending. The Pew Research Center said its recent polling shows that a majority of Americans — for the first time in 15 years of being surveyed on the question — oppose more government spending to help the poor.
I’m getting my head around the fact that the US is the wealthiest industrialized country, yet our poverty rates are also higher. Correlate that with this graph, and I’m pretty much done with the Cult of Ayn.
Conservatives who rail against communism by mocking faux communists with ‘it (communism) hasn’t failed, it’s just never been done right’ now have to account for the same scrutiny. I see these results as the legacy of conservatism: the rich really are getting richer, the poor are getting poorer, and fuck off if you can’t afford health care here’s some bootstraps you lazy ass laggard.
The Tea Party rhetoric is nothing but angry populist libertarian laced gobbledy gook logic being astro turfed by Koch Industries and like entities. They’ve leveraged what goes for a ‘debate’ by demonizing any $ spent by the government as ‘socialist’ or ‘liberal’ or ‘communist,’ unless that $ is being spent by the military or are subsidies for ag or fossil fuels.
Many of us have been duped.
| 224 |
allegro Mon, Sep 19, 2011 9:04:01am |
re: #219 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
My daughter might be gay.
If I told you I was happy about it? I’d be lying.
She might be gay? How old is she?
| 225 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Sep 19, 2011 9:05:15am |
re: #222 BishopX
Dunno. I want what ever parent wants. Their child’s happiness.
If it makes her happy?…
But, well? Shit. Don’t know how I feel.
| 226 |
Alexzander Mon, Sep 19, 2011 9:06:55am |
re: #225 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I think it is normal to have highly conflicted emotions. This is still a pretty homophobic world and it is scary to imagine a child entering it.
| 227 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Sep 19, 2011 9:09:39am |
re: #224 allegro
21. Starting to see some “hints”.
Honestly? I hope I’m wrong.
I’m only so enlightened.
She’ll get zero “pushback” from us.
| 228 |
BishopX Mon, Sep 19, 2011 9:10:22am |
re: #225 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Not knowing is perfectly fine. All this stuff is complicated and takes some time. Just let her know you love her and want the best for her and you’ll do your best. Everything will work out with time.
| 229 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Sep 19, 2011 9:10:32am |
Obama’s got our back…..
Is the Obama Administration Protecting Lizards at Expense of Jobs?
| 230 |
Carlos Diggler Mon, Sep 19, 2011 9:10:57am |
re: #218 Lidane
That guy is so full of shit. 500 workers @ $6.3m in revenue and he may have $400,000 left after feeding his family?
That’s about 8% net net profit. He’s not doing too bad. Somehow 7.5% net net is going to cause him to fire more people?
Did I say he’s full of it?
My business plan calls for me, wifey, and 2-3 guys doing over $1m a year. I’m hoping that she and I combined make over $100k until things get settled and cranking. We work our assess off, which is supposed to be some kind of virtue. However that douche said ‘success is a virtue’….no it’s not. Shows how swiss cheesed his brain is.
| 231 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Sep 19, 2011 9:11:17am |
re: #226 Alexzander
Completely mis-read your comment. Sorry.
| 232 |
Vicious Babushka Mon, Sep 19, 2011 9:11:40am |
re: #218 Lidane
[Video]
This is a very common, and false meme. Jobs are not created from individual’s personal income (unless you’re thinking about jobs like landscaping, chaffeuring, nanny, maid). Also, corporations can’t create jobs if they’re paying out millions in executive bonuses and parachutes.
| 233 |
recusancy Mon, Sep 19, 2011 9:12:57am |
re: #231 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Homophobic? A parent’s reaction to their child “coming out” is homophobic?
Fucking liberals.
No he meant the world that she’d be entering. Outside of her family.
| 234 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Sep 19, 2011 9:13:33am |
| 235 |
Vicious Babushka Mon, Sep 19, 2011 9:13:46am |
re: #232 Alouette
This is a very common, and false meme. Jobs are not created from individual’s personal income (unless you’re thinking about jobs like landscaping, chaffeuring, nanny, maid). Also, corporations can’t create jobs for ordinary people if they’re paying out millions in executive bonuses and parachutes.
| 236 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Sep 19, 2011 9:15:28am |
re: #234 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
If you need anyone to talk to, I literally used to help counsel parents whose kids had come out to them. Feel free to hit me up.
| 237 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Sep 19, 2011 9:17:05am |
re: #236 Obdicut
We’ll be fine. Her mother will take it much harder than I will.
| 238 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Sep 19, 2011 9:18:09am |
re: #237 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I know you will, but if it would make you feel any better or help you help her more, I’d be happy to. It’s a heavy thing. Lots of headlines suddenly become extra-meaningful.
I’m sure that you’ll always be the best dad for her, and I’m glad for her sake that she’s got you.
| 239 |
Lidane Mon, Sep 19, 2011 9:18:58am |
re: #228 BishopX
All this stuff is complicated and takes some time. Just let her know you love her and want the best for her and you’ll do your best. Everything will work out with time.
Yeah, this. I’m not a parent, but I have had plenty of gay friends over the years and that’s really the best thing to do. If she does end up coming out, just tell her you love and support her and that you just need time to adjust. I’m sure she’d understand.
| 240 |
Alexzander Mon, Sep 19, 2011 9:21:33am |
re: #231 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Completely mis-read your comment. Sorry.
S’all good. I could have worded it better.
241 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 9:21:35am |
A plumber (for example) earns $70,000 a year taxable income, and is taxed at 30% or $21,000. Again, these are examples and using rounded off figures.
This Hedge manager we all want to hate earns $5 million a year. So at the same 30% he should pay $1.5 million.
However only $250,000 is earnings from salary and bonuses. $4.75 Million is dividends which is today taxed at 15%.
So right now the evil Hedge Fund Manager only pays $712,500 on the dividends, and $75,000 on the regular earnings. Only $787,500 in total taxes, or 15.75% on the $5 million. You can change the ratio of earned income and dividend income and it doesn’t really change the bottom line very much. (For example, one million in earned income and four million in dividend income means a base tax rate of 18%, still far below the 30%)
What is the President suggesting? Well with no details, and only a rousing speech, we can only guess. Taxing dividend earnings at the same rate as earned income? Limiting dividend income? A surcharge on the rich? What kind of effect would that have on investments, and on the economy?
| 242 |
Alexzander Mon, Sep 19, 2011 9:23:51am |
re: #241 Buck
What is the President suggesting? Well with no details, and only a rousing speech, we can only guess. Taxing dividend earnings at the same rate as earned income? Limiting dividend income? A surcharge on the rich?
I’ve been wondering this too.
| 243 |
Carlos Diggler Mon, Sep 19, 2011 9:27:26am |
re: #241 Buck
A plumber (for example) earns $70,000 a year taxable income, and is taxed at 30% or $21,000. Again, these are examples and using rounded off figures.
This Hedge manager we all want to hate…
There, you lost me with your class warfare shit Buck, I quit reading the post. Have a down ding.
| 244 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 9:29:53am |
re: #243 BigPapa
There, you lost me with your class warfare shit Buck, I quit reading the post. Have a down ding.
Ya, I kinda expected a well reasoned argument with details would lose you. Let me interpret it for you:
How does Obama plan to kill and eat the Rich?
There you go.
245 |
wrenchwench Mon, Sep 19, 2011 9:30:17am |
re: #219 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
My daughter might be gay.
If I told you I was happy about it? I’d be lying.
When I was in high school, my best friend’s older brother came out to his family. Their mother said, “I never understood until now how someone could disown their child.” But she didn’t disown him. She got over it, and they had a great relationship thereafter (so far as I know; I’ve been out of touch for a long time.)
Is this the daughter with the injured boyfriend? Sorry, I don’t know whether you have more than one…
| 246 |
Carlos Diggler Mon, Sep 19, 2011 9:32:48am |
re: #244 Buck
Ya, I kinda expected a well reasoned argument with details would lose you. Let me interpret it for you:
How does Obama plan to kill and eat the Rich?
There you go.
Bullshit. The ‘hedge fund manager you all want to hate’ lost me. Either you don’t understand that or you’re purposefully being antagonistic, so don’t imply that you’re trying to be all adult like and we just can’t handle your big boy skillz.
If your argument was so fucking well reasoned you would not need to say moronic shit to make it interesting. Or was ‘hedge fund managers you all want to hate’ supposed to be a well reasoned point?
| 247 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 9:34:17am |
re: #246 BigPapa
Did I really say ‘hedge fund manager you all want to hate’?
No, but basically you are responding only to the tone of my post, and not the content.
| 248 |
Carlos Diggler Mon, Sep 19, 2011 9:36:31am |
re: #247 Buck
Did I really say ‘hedge fund manager you all want to hate’?
Does it really matter? No it doesn’t. Reading ‘you’ or ‘you all’ is still bullshit. Don’t parse where parsing doesn’t change the result.
| 249 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 9:39:12am |
re: #248 BigPapa
Does it really matter? No it doesn’t. Reading ‘you’ or ‘you all’ is still bullshit. Don’t parse where parsing doesn’t change the result.
I didn’t say ‘you’ or ‘you all’ …. I said we all. I think it does make a difference. However, you were turned off by the tone, and admit that you wont even bother to read the rest of the post. That is fine with me. I lost you. I get it. Do you want me to say I am sorry that you are so thin skinned that you can’t read a post once you dislike the tone?
| 250 |
Eventual Carrion Mon, Sep 19, 2011 9:43:14am |
re: #241 Buck
*snip*
However only $250,000 is earnings from salary and bonuses. $4.75 Million is dividends which is today taxed at 15%.
*snip*
Dividends should be taxed at 28%. Same as gambling winnings. Unearned income.
| 251 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 9:45:23am |
re: #250 RayFerd
Dividends should be taxed at 28%. Same as gambling winnings.
OK, maybe that is what the President is planning. What do you think would happen if the dividend tax rate was almost doubled over night? What do you think would happen to the stock market?
| 252 |
Carlos Diggler Mon, Sep 19, 2011 9:46:31am |
re: #249 Buck
I didn’t say ‘you’ or ‘you all’ … I said we all. I think it does make a difference. However, you were turned off by the tone, and admit that you wont even bother to read the rest of the post. That is fine with me. I lost you. I get it. Do you want me to say I am sorry that you are so think skinned that you can’t read a post once you dislike the tone?
You’re a classic case of arrested development. You’ve now tri-parsed the statement and the results still stay the same, and now you wish to discuss me and my emotional state, feelings, whatever. Is this supposed to be a big boy discussion about taxation or not?
How about instead of discussing my tone, you discuss yours. And not just your ‘tone’ but statements you make. Like the ‘hedge fund managers you/we/all/your mama hate.’ Class warfare, antagonism, whatever. My point was I that I was reading your post and giving it credence as a view point until that class warfare line. Instead of making me in error due to my being ‘thin skinned’ maybe you should look inward at your petty antagonism and consider that it is the issue, not the fact that people can’t handle your mad debate skillz. That’s 16 year old’s logic.
If you want to have an adult discussion act like one.
| 253 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Sep 19, 2011 9:48:35am |
re: #251 Buck
What do you think that would happen?
Taxes are on profit. It’d change investment profile in the stock market to be a bit more risk adverse.
It’d be great if we tied the tax to inflation so that the longer you held something, the more of a benefit you got when selling it. That’d reward longer-term investment.
| 254 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 9:50:30am |
re: #252 BigPapa
If you want to have an adult discussion act like one.
Your first reaction was to use the word “shit” and announce that you didn’t like my tone, and would not read the whole post.
I think you and I have a different definition of “adult discussion”.
| 255 |
Lidane Mon, Sep 19, 2011 9:50:30am |
re: #246 BigPapa
If your argument was so fucking well reasoned you would not need to say moronic shit to make it interesting.
Except that Buck says all kinds of moronic shit and it’s never interesting. It’s just a rehash of whatever the latest right wing talking points are.
| 256 |
Eventual Carrion Mon, Sep 19, 2011 9:54:04am |
re: #251 Buck
OK, maybe that is what the President is planning. What do you think would happen if the dividend tax rate was almost doubled over night? What do you think would happen to the stock market?
Not a damn thing different than what is going on now.
| 257 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Sep 19, 2011 9:56:17am |
re: #256 RayFerd
It would have a small effect, making people a little more risk-adverse— unless we also changed something else, like the amount of deduction from loss you could carry from year to year.
But it wouldn’t have a very strong effect, no.
| 258 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 9:59:32am |
re: #253 Obdicut
Taxes are on profit.
Well, sometimes taxes are on dividend earnings, and not profit. That hedge fund manager might invest in Microsoft stock, they pay a dividend. He earns that money, but he has not made a profit. The IRS wants the tax paid NOW, in the same year that he gets it. He might hang onto the stock for a decade, but in that time he will pay a tax on the dividend income.
Bill Gates (or Buffet if you prefer) hangs onto a big part of his stock, but he only earns dividend income from it. Are you suggesting he should be rewarded for hanging onto the stock? Of course that is sort of happening by only taxing the dividend income at 15%. If he sold the stock he would pay capital gains which is at a higher rate.
| 259 |
Carlos Diggler Mon, Sep 19, 2011 10:00:30am |
re: #254 Buck
Your first reaction was to use the word “shit” and announce that you didn’t like my tone, and would not read the whole post.
I think you and I have a different definition of “adult discussion”.
I see Buck. Your Logic Fu is weak.
Swear words like shit: not adult.
Antagonistic rhetoric becoming a teenager? Adult.
Somebody quits reading a post after reading teenage antagonism? Not adult, or thin skinned…..
Implying that somebody is thin skinned/(fill in the blanks) because they quit reading a well thought out post after teenage antagonistic comment: adult.
We could probably go on all day because the vigor of ego will always outlast reason. It’s not about you saying stupid childish shit Buck, it’s about me.
Riiiight.
| 260 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 10:03:04am |
re: #259 BigPapa
Like I say, I think you and I have a different definition of “adult discussion”.
| 261 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 10:06:07am |
re: #255 Lidane
Except that Buck says all kinds of moronic shit and it’s never interesting. It’s just a rehash of whatever the latest right wing talking points are.
Ad Hominem name calling, not actually addressing the substance of what I wrote.
262 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Sep 19, 2011 10:14:32am |
re: #225 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Dunno. I want what ever parent wants. Their child’s happiness.
If it makes her happy?…
But, well? Shit. Don’t know how I feel.
Here’s how you feel:
1) You love your daughter unconditionally.
2) You want her to be happy no matter what.
3) You will not necessarily ever like or approve of everything she does in her life.
4) You nevertheless love your daughter unconditionally and will support her no matter what.
5) If she is gay, you will eventually get comfortable with it once you see her life is not going to fall apart.
6) Did I mention you love your daughter unconditionally?
| 263 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Mon, Sep 19, 2011 10:17:36am |
re: #262 reine.de.tout
Purdy much.
Her mom’s gonna be crushed when she ends up with no “natural” (you know what I mean) grandbabies.
| 264 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Sep 19, 2011 10:17:48am |
re: #258 Buck
How the fuck do you figure a dividend isn’t a profit?
| 265 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 10:18:40am |
re: #257 Obdicut
But it wouldn’t have a very strong effect, no.
Really?… You don’t think that doubling the tax rate on dividend income would have a very strong effect? I just want to understand.
| 266 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Sep 19, 2011 10:21:01am |
re: #263 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Purdy much.
Her mom’s gonna be crushed when she ends up with no “natural” (you know what I mean) grandbabies.
Maybe.
But if there is a grand baby by another means (artificial insemination, adoption), I have a strong suspicion everybody will fall in love with the baby, no matter how it came to be in your family.
| 267 |
allegro Mon, Sep 19, 2011 10:21:15am |
re: #265 Buck
Really?… You don’t think that doubling the tax rate on dividend income would have a very strong effect? I just want to understand.
As long as the investor is making money - the idea behind investing, no? - then the investments will continue regardless of the resulting tax rate is 15% or 28%. What makes you think (apparently) that the investor will stop investing?
| 268 |
Carlos Diggler Mon, Sep 19, 2011 10:21:45am |
re: #260 Buck
Like I say, I think you and I have a different definition of “adult discussion”.
Ah yes. The ‘two sides to every story’ or ‘balance’ or ‘you say tomato I say tomatoe’ defense.
You said
This Hedge manager we all want to hate….
So right now the evil Hedge Fund Manager only pays….
I said a swear word.
You said
(parse) ….you were turned off by the tone, and admit that you wont even bother to read the rest of the post. That is fine with me. I lost you. I get it. Do you want me to say I am sorry that you are so think skinned that you can’t read a post once you dislike the tone?
You implied I was being childish by not reading the rest of your ‘well reasoned’ post because I am thin skinned.
This is not an issue of two different interpretations of what an adult discussion is. You have not the faintest clue of what an adult discussion is, or you do know how to have one and choose to act like a teenager. Your rhetoric is antagonizing, and when called on it, you continue the antagonism by calling me think skinned, the egotistically imply that your post was awesome, which implies that the real reason I quit reading it was because it was awesome.
What is awesome is that you believe this bullshit and think it’s ‘adult.’ At least make fun of yourself when pushing this line, I would appreciate the humor and self deprecating sassiness.
| 269 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Sep 19, 2011 10:23:30am |
re: #265 Buck
Yes Buck. That’s what I said. What effect do you think will happen? Where do you think that money will flow to instead?
If you believe a stock is going to make a profit for you, the criteria for investing in it is an equation. It’s the likelihood that the stock’s earnings will outpace inflation over time. If they do, it always makes sense to invest in it. The element of risk comes in when there’s the strong change that the stock may decrease a lot in value. You can hedge that very simply, obviously, by having diverse investments. But the risk means that you also consider how likely it is that the stock will underperform to the point where it never becomes profitable to sell it and/or has never paid out dividends equal to the worth + the price of selling it.
So it would have the effect of making people somewhat more risk adverse, though in the current climate— where people are buying US bonds like hotcakes, even though those bonds are going to be performing UNDER inflation— people are already seeking safety, so especially right now it would have a very small effect.
As I said, I’d prefer the rate tied to inflation, so that we rewarded long-term investment.
| 270 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 10:25:10am |
re: #264 Obdicut
How the fuck do you figure a dividend isn’t a profit?
I explained it. But let me use actual figures.
A person can own shares on a stock. Let’s say they spend $21 a share for 1000 shares or $21,000.
Now until they sell the stock, they don’t have any taxable profit or loss. The shares might go up, and it also might go down.
IN the meanwhile the company pays 63 cents/share/year in dividends. In this case the investor gets $630 a year in dividend income. It isn’t profit. The shares might have lost $3 in share value in that year. So the investor has lost $2,370 in that year. They have not profited from the transaction.
| 271 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 10:27:08am |
re: #267 allegro
As long as the investor is making money - the idea behind investing, no? - then the investments will continue regardless of the resulting tax rate is 15% or 28%. What makes you think (apparently) that the investor will stop investing?
Because not every investment works out. Many times they fail to make money. The idea of a lower rate on dividends is to give an incentive to take the risk. Sometimes it works out, and sometimes it doesn’t.
| 272 |
allegro Mon, Sep 19, 2011 10:34:13am |
re: #271 Buck
Because not every investment works out. Many times they fail to make money. The idea of a lower rate on dividends is to give an incentive to take the risk. Sometimes it works out, and sometimes it doesn’t.
Losses are deductible to a certain extent. If an investment fails to make money, bummer. No taxes owed on profits. If an investment works out, income taxes should be the same as on earned income.
| 273 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 10:35:28am |
Anyway, we have no clue what the President has planned. Other that try and make the two pay an equal amount of taxes (%).
Currently .2 of taxpayers earn the pre requisite minimum of a million dollars. That same group paying 20% of the total federal tax (from individual tax forms).
| 274 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 10:36:07am |
re: #272 allegro
Losses are deductible to a certain extent. If an investment fails to make money, bummer. No taxes owed on profits. If an investment works out, income taxes should be the same as on earned income.
You still have to pay the tax on the dividends… trust me.
| 275 |
allegro Mon, Sep 19, 2011 10:36:53am |
re: #274 Buck
You still have to pay the tax on the dividends… trust me.
I am aware of that. It is entirely appropriate since those dividends are income.
| 276 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Sep 19, 2011 10:40:15am |
re: #270 Buck
I explained it. But let me use actual figures.
A person can own shares on a stock. Let’s say they spend $21 a share for 1000 shares or $21,000.
Now until they sell the stock, they don’t have any taxable profit or loss. The shares might go up, and it also might go down.
IN the meanwhile the company pays 63 cents/share/year in dividends. In this case the investor gets $630 a year in dividend income. It isn’t profit. The shares might have lost $3 in share value in that year. So the investor has lost $2,370 in that year. They have not profited from the transaction.
Oh dear god. Yes, they’ve made a profit from the dividend. Money has flowed into their pocket. Unearned income. It’s not profit from sale of stock; it’s still profit. They have more money than they did before.
You’re acting as though the current stock price somehow changes it, and as though dividends are earned income. Neither is true.
| 277 |
iossarian Mon, Sep 19, 2011 10:50:37am |
re: #276 Obdicut
Oh dear god. Yes, they’ve made a profit from the dividend. Money has flowed into their pocket. Unearned income. It’s not profit from sale of stock; it’s still profit. They have more money than they did before.
You’re acting as though the current stock price somehow changes it, and as though dividends are earned income. Neither is true.
As was the case a short while ago (the “investment happens when stock prices go up” discussion), right-wing commenters often* have a very shaky grasp of corporate economic strategy fundamentals.
* not always, but often
| 278 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 10:52:21am |
re: #276 Obdicut
Oh dear god. Yes, they’ve made a profit from the dividend. Money has flowed into their pocket. Unearned income. It’s not profit from sale of stock; it’s still profit. They have more money than they did before.
You’re acting as though the current stock price somehow changes it, and as though dividends are earned income. Neither is true.
Oh dear god.
It is ok Obdicut, you can just call me Buck… you don’t have to be all formal that way.
Well again it turns out we have a different definition of profit.
Of course I am the one pointing out that dividends are NOT earned income, and should not be taxed at the same rate.
However, they do NOT have more money than they did before. In my example they have $2,370 less money than they did before they made the investment.
| 279 |
Carlos Diggler Mon, Sep 19, 2011 10:54:43am |
re: #270 Buck
I explained it. But let me use actual figures.
A person can own shares on a stock. Let’s say they spend $21 a share for 1000 shares or $21,000.
Now until they sell the stock, they don’t have any taxable profit or loss. The shares might go up, and it also might go down.
IN the meanwhile the company pays 63 cents/share/year in dividends. In this case the investor gets $630 a year in dividend income. It isn’t profit. The shares might have lost $3 in share value in that year. So the investor has lost $2,370 in that year. They have not profited from the transaction.
The investor did not lose any money. The money is lost when he sells the stock.
If you take a dividend in the same year but sell the stock at a loss, these are rectified in tax code.
| 280 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 10:56:41am |
re: #279 BigPapa
The investor did not lose any money. The money is lost when he sells the stock.
If you take a dividend in the same year but sell the stock at a loss, these are rectified in tax code.
If you look that the persons Balance sheet, in this simple example, they would have less money.
| 281 |
allegro Mon, Sep 19, 2011 10:59:54am |
re: #278 Buck
However, they do NOT have more money than they did before. In my example they have $2,370 less money than they did before they made the investment.
So the portfolio is worthless? That’s like saying that buying a house for $100,000 makes you $100,000 poorer regardless of the worth of the house. It makes a difference in the amount of cash in the bank but net worth is unaffected.
Are you really this… unaware?
| 282 |
Carlos Diggler Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:06:28am |
re: #280 Buck
If you look that the persons Balance sheet, in this simple example, they would have less money.
A stock is an investment. Changes in the investment are realized when the investment is sold as far as the IRS is concerned.
This IRS doesn’t not care if the value changed in the interim. If you have a stock that dropped 10% in value, you did not ‘lose’ 10% of your money. The loss is only realized if you then sell the stock. Then the IRS considers this a loss and is calculated into the tax equation.
If you sold the stock and made a profit, then your are taxed on the profit.
| 283 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:07:28am |
re: #278 Buck
No, dude. Having stock and having money are not synonymous. I have no idea why you think they are. They don’t have any less money than they did before. The stock has a lower value. They have a lower net worth. They have no less money. They had less money when they bought the stock— they changed money into stock ownership.
| 284 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:11:29am |
re: #281 allegro
So the portfolio is worthless? That’s like saying that buying a house for $100,000 makes you $100,000 poorer regardless of the worth of the house. It makes a difference in the amount of cash in the bank but net worth is unaffected.
Are you really this… unaware?
No, I am saying the asset (stock or house) has a value, and it is measured in dollars.
| 285 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:12:56am |
re: #282 BigPapa
A stock is an investment. Changes in the investment are realized when the investment is sold as far as the IRS is concerned.
This IRS doesn’t not care if the value changed in the interim. If you have a stock that dropped 10% in value, you did not ‘lose’ 10% of your money. The loss is only realized if you then sell the stock. Then the IRS considers this a loss and is calculated into the tax equation.
If you sold the stock and made a profit, then your are taxed on the profit.
OK, you are missing the key part of this discussion, in the meanwhile is dividends “profit”?
| 286 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:13:29am |
re: #284 Buck
But it is not the same as having dollars. Not at all.
His net worth is lower. But we don’t tax net worth as a whole. We tax income, the flow of money from one place to another.
| 287 |
allegro Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:13:39am |
re: #284 Buck
No, I am saying the asset (stock or house) has a value, and it is measured in dollars.
And that has what to do with how income is taxed? You appear to want to justify paying a lower tax rate on unearned investment income, which includes dividends paid. Your arguments are failing to support this justification.
| 288 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:14:22am |
re: #283 Obdicut
No, dude. Having stock and having money are not synonymous. I have no idea why you think they are. They don’t have any less money than they did before. The stock has a lower value. They have a lower net worth. They have no less money. They had less money when they bought the stock— they changed money into stock ownership.
OK, maybe “dude” is too informal….
Stock, in this example is an asset. It is measured in dollars.
| 289 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:15:47am |
re: #288 Buck
Yes. But it is not dollars. You cannot buy anything with stock. It is not dollars any more than my dresser or my socks are.
So, when you treat it as though it is dollars, you are misrepresenting what it is.
| 290 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:16:43am |
re: #287 allegro
And that has what to do with how income is taxed? You appear to want to justify paying a lower tax rate on unearned investment income, which includes dividends paid. Your arguments are failing to support this justification.
Actually this part of the discussion is about dividends ALWAYS being considered profit. I am saying it isn’t, Obdicut is saying it is.
| 291 |
allegro Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:18:04am |
re: #290 Buck
Actually this part of the discussion is about dividends ALWAYS being considered profit. I am saying it isn’t, Obdicut is saying it is.
Of course dividends paid are profit. Always.
| 292 |
Carlos Diggler Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:19:08am |
re: #285 Buck
OK, you are missing the key part of this discussion, in the meanwhile is dividends “profit”?
No, you are missing the key part of the discussion: stocks are not money. If your stock lost value you did not lose money.
| 293 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:19:41am |
re: #289 Obdicut
Yes. But it is not dollars. You cannot buy anything with stock. It is not dollars any more than my dresser or my socks are.
So, when you treat it as though it is dollars, you are misrepresenting what it is.
Really? I can take it to the bank and they will lend me money against my stock portfolio. Stock is a liquid asset. I don’t think your used socks are.
Once again we are speaking a different language that just happens to have the similar words.
| 294 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:20:23am |
re: #292 BigPapa
No, you are missing the key part of the discussion: stocks are not money. If your stock lost value you did not lose money.
OK, we disagree.
| 295 |
Carlos Diggler Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:20:29am |
re: #290 Buck
Actually this part of the discussion is about dividends ALWAYS being considered profit. I am saying it isn’t, Obdicut is saying it is.
Dividends always are profit.
A devalued stock is not lost profit until you sell it.
| 296 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:21:14am |
re: #291 allegro
If, over the course of the life of the ownership of the stock, dividends were paid out that never recouped the purchase price, it’s possible that the sale of the stock plus the dividends would not equal the purchase price of the stock.
But you’re never forced to sell stock. And if you do, and it sells for less than what you bought it for, then you can claim that as a capital loss— without accounting for how many dividends you got over the years.
And you’re never forced to sell your stock.
It’s like saying that getting rent from an apartment building you own isn’t profit, because the building depreciated in value over the years.
| 297 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:22:35am |
re: #293 Buck
Really? I can take it to the bank and they will lend me money against my stock portfolio. Stock is a liquid asset. I don’t think your used socks are.
Yes. They will lend you money— which is different than it being money.
If my dresser was a work of art, crafted by artisans in the 12th century, I could certainly get a loan against that. If my socks were the ones Elvis wore when he died, I could certainly get a loan against them. The only thing that matters in getting a loan is the value of the asset— not what form it has.
Do you understand?
| 298 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:24:28am |
re: #289 Obdicut
Yes. But it is not dollars. You cannot buy anything with stock. It is not dollars any more than my dresser or my socks are.
So, when you treat it as though it is dollars, you are misrepresenting what it is.
Are you still at it? I used to live next to a yeshiva gedola. Can you say “b’chavruta”?
| 299 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:24:59am |
re: #295 BigPapa
Dividends always are profit.
A devalued stock is not lost profit until you sell it.
OK, we disagree on your first point. I think dividends are a form of compensation, but not necessarily profit.
| 300 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:26:05am |
When I fill out my companies tax forms at the end of the year, I’m allowed to claim a certain amount of depreciation against my income— my profit.
I pay myself dividends throughout the year— oddly enough, these dividends directly lower the value of my company, since it’s money being paid from the company to me. Because I’m an S corporation, I’m allowed to treat that profit against my normal income tax— but every red cent I pay myself is considered profit. Either the corporation or I is judged to have made the profit.
| 301 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:28:45am |
re: #296 Obdicut
It’s like saying that getting rent from an apartment building you own isn’t profit, because the building depreciated in value over the years.
And I am saying it is not profit. Not all compensation is profit.
Let me try again. A store can sell every item in inventory and not make a profit.
| 302 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:32:41am |
re: #300 Obdicut
….. my income— my profit…..
I can see we disagree (again) on the definition. I don’t think income is always equal to profit.
Don’t confuse the issue but bringing in what the dividends are to the corp. Yes, they are probably profit for the corp, but we are talking about the stock owner.
| 303 |
Carlos Diggler Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:33:23am |
re: #299 Buck
OK, we disagree on your first point. I think dividends are a form of compensation, but not necessarily profit.
Dividends are corporate profits that are given out to shareholders. They are profits, technically speaking.
| 304 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:34:54am |
re: #297 Obdicut
Yes. They will lend you money— which is different than it being money.
If my dresser was a work of art, crafted by artisans in the 12th century, I could certainly get a loan against that. If my socks were the ones Elvis wore when he died, I could certainly get a loan against them. The only thing that matters in getting a loan is the value of the asset— not what form it has.
Do you understand?
That is just silly. You want to change “dresser and socks” to collectible’s fine, but don’t make out like that is what you meant in the first place.
| 305 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:36:15am |
re: #301 Buck
Sure. You can sell stock and not make a profit from the sale of stock.
You can receive dividends from that stock, and sell the stock, and never recoup your purchase price.
But you are never forced to sell that stock— comparing it to a retail item is obviously wrong— and the dividends, as they occur, are profit. They are recorded as profit.
Do you understand that you can get a loan based on stock as collateral because it has value, just as a work of art might have value, and that that does not mean it is equivalent to money?
| 306 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:36:31am |
re: #303 BigPapa
Dividends are corporate profits that are given out to shareholders. They are profits, technically speaking.
Don’t confuse the issue but bringing in what the dividends are to the corp. Yes, they are probably profit for the corp, but we are talking about the stock owner.
| 307 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:36:50am |
re: #302 Buck
I didn’t say income was always equal to profit. In my case, since I have no, or very low costs, it is. Likewise, owning stock has no costs associated with it, aside from whatever voluntary accounting is done.
| 308 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:38:01am |
re: #304 Buck
That is just silly. You want to change “dresser and socks” to collectible’s fine, but don’t make out like that is what you meant in the first place.
Oh boy. So I can’t pawn my dresser? That’s not possible?
What is a pawn, Buck? Isn’t it a loan?
It is. So, yes, I can get a loan for my non-designer dresser. I can get a bigger one, the more expensive it is.
Do you understand?
| 309 |
allegro Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:39:09am |
re: #299 Buck
OK, we disagree on your first point. I think dividends are a form of compensation, but not necessarily profit.
So dividends are just like a paycheck, i.e. compensation. We pay income tax on our compensation. Therefore dividends should be taxed at the same rate.
| 310 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:39:45am |
re: #305 Obdicut
Do you understand that you can get a loan based on stock as collateral because it has value, just as a work of art might have value, and that that does not mean it is equivalent to money?
No, I disagree with you. They are assets that are measured in dollars, or money.
Dollars = Money
These assets are not measured in inches, or Big Macs. They are measured in dollars. At the end of the year you can add up the values (again in dollars) of your assets and say “this is how much money I have”.
| 311 |
Carlos Diggler Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:41:18am |
re: #306 Buck
Don’t confuse the issue but bringing in what the dividends are to the corp. Yes, they are probably profit for the corp, but we are talking about the stock owner.
So you agree corporations are not people. But money is money, and stocks are stocks.
And dividends are profits. Pointing that out is not confusing the issue. Dividends paid out to stockholders are profits paid out to stockholders, which are considered income to that stockholder.
The stock’s decrease in value is not a loss in income.
I don’t understand why you are confused by this, this is business admin 101.
| 312 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:42:26am |
re: #309 allegro
So dividends are just like a paycheck, i.e. compensation. We pay income tax on our compensation. Therefore dividends should be taxed at the same rate.
And that might be what the President is suggesting. I think it will have a huge negative effect on the economy. AND it will not bring in that much more money to the tax rolls, as dividend income will be less desirable.
| 313 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:42:58am |
re: #310 Buck
I can measure the worth of anything in dollars, Buck.
Why on earth do you think you can’t? You don’t think I can assess how many dollars i could sell my dresser for?
At the end of the year you can add up the values (again in dollars) of your assets and say “this is how much money I have”.
Nope. You can say “this is my net worth”. Money is cash, is liquid assets, not other assets.
I own a portion of the family home in San Francisco. how much money do I have? Well, I certainly don’t have any of the money from the worth of the house. The money I have is what is in my bank accounts.
If wanted to change the house into money, I would have to sell it. If I want to change my stock into money, I have to sell it. It’s not magically the same thing as money.
| 314 |
iossarian Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:43:07am |
re: #311 BigPapa
I don’t understand why you are confused by this, this is business admin 101.
It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!
| 315 |
allegro Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:43:26am |
re: #312 Buck
And that might be what the President is suggesting. I think it will have a huge negative effect on the economy. AND it will not bring in that much more money to the tax rolls, as dividend income will be less desirable.
What makes it less desirable?
| 316 |
Carlos Diggler Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:45:39am |
re: #310 Buck
No, I disagree with you. They are assets that are measured in dollars, or money.
Dollars = Money
These assets are not measured in inches, or Big Macs. They are measured in dollars. At the end of the year you can add up the values (again in dollars) of your assets and say “this is how much money I have”.
But you don’t get taxed on how much money you have or your net worth, you get taxed on how much you make. That’s why, according to the IRS, dividends are income but changing stock prices are not taxed until you sell them.
| 317 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:45:49am |
re: #307 Obdicut
I didn’t say income was always equal to profit. In my case, since I have no, or very low costs, it is. Likewise, owning stock has no costs associated with it, aside from whatever voluntary accounting is done.
No, you did say dividends were always equal to a profit to the shareholder.
I said they were not.
318 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:49:41am |
I am thinking these three different meanings may explain some (not all) differences displayed in this thread:
Definition of PROFIT
1: a valuable return : gain
2: the excess of returns over expenditure in a transaction or series of transactions; especially : the excess of the selling price of goods over their cost
3: net income usually for a given period of time
| 319 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:51:20am |
re: #313 Obdicut
I own a portion of the family home in San Francisco. how much money do I have? Well, I certainly don’t have any of the money from the worth of the house. The money I have is what is in my bank accounts.
You value that house, in dollars, and calculate how much of a share (%) you have in that house. That is your share (in dollars) of the asset, and it increases your net worth by that amount.
Yes, the house is LESS liquid than stock (which is easy to sell), but it is yours, and it is an asset measured in money (dollars). Now becasue it is a family home, you probably don’t contribute to the expenses, or probably did not buy into it. So it is a really bad example.
| 320 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:53:11am |
re: #317 Buck
No, you did say dividends were always equal to a profit to the shareholder.
I said they were not.
And they are. Because the shareholder is never forced to sell stock, stock is never a loss for a shareholder until they choose to sell.
You are simply conflating “Making a profit overall” with making a profit. We assess profit and income at moments in time.
All you are noting is the trivial truth that stocks may not be profitable, with or without dividends, over time. So what?
Also, do you now understand that, just as I could pawn my dresser and get a loan for its worth, you can use your stock to secure a loan? The worth of the stock is as an asset, a security, not as money.
Stock is not money. Do you understand now?
| 321 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:54:46am |
re: #319 Buck
Yes. It increases my net worth. It doesn’t increase the amount of money I have. The only way that that could happen would be to sell the house, rent it out, or use it as a security.
The house on its own? Not money. Stock on its own? Not money. They both can become money.
But they are not money.
This is simple.
| 322 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:54:52am |
re: #316 BigPapa
But you don’t get taxed on how much money you have or your net worth, you get taxed on how much you make. That’s why, according to the IRS, dividends are income but changing stock prices are not taxed until you sell them.
All correct, but we are discussing if Dividends are always profit. I have always said they were income. Unearned income, and taxed at a lower rate than earned income in order to be an incentive for investment. Investment (over all) creates jobs and is good for the economy.
| 323 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:56:56am |
re: #258 Buck
Well, sometimes taxes are on dividend earnings, and not profit. That hedge fund manager might invest in Microsoft stock, they pay a dividend. He earns that money, but he has not made a profit.
What did you mean by ‘he earns that money’?
You didn’t mean that he, well, earns that money?
| 324 |
allegro Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:57:09am |
re: #322 Buck
All correct, but we are discussing if Dividends are always profit. I have always said they were income. Unearned income, and taxed at a lower rate than earned income in order to be an incentive for investment. Investment (over all) creates jobs and is good for the economy.
This (the bold) is the point that you totally fail to support. Why/how would taxing it at the same rate as any other income create less incentive for investment?
| 325 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:59:31am |
re: #321 Obdicut
But they are not money.
This is simple.
We disagree. I have made the argument that these assets are measured in dollars, and therefore can be considered money.
Maybe we are disagreeing over what money is. When I said “lost money” I meant that failed to make a profit. I could have said “lost dollars” or “had a reduced asset value”. All three meant the same to me. Lost money was just an expression. I didn’t mean that they didn’t know where it was.
| 326 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:59:48am |
re: #310 Buck
No, I disagree with you. They are assets that are measured in dollars, or money.
Dollars = Money
These assets are not measured in inches, or Big Macs. They are measured in dollars. At the end of the year you can add up the values (again in dollars) of your assets and say “this is how much money I have”.
You are very confused. Dollars, or rather, money in form of a specific currency, is a measurement because the value of assets is measured by being priced in dollars. So assets are priced in dollars. But that is not the same as there being actual dollars, nor makes it those assets actual dollars, even though any asset may have a dollar value.
Your logic equates a ruler with all the things it can measure (including itself).
| 327 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Mon, Sep 19, 2011 12:01:28pm |
re: #313 Obdicut
The money I have is what is in my bank accounts.
Technically incorrect, as you would notice if you ever happened to be late to a run on your bank. :-)
| 328 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Sep 19, 2011 12:02:16pm |
re: #325 Buck
We disagree. I have made the argument that these assets are measured in dollars, and therefore can be considered money.
That isn’t an argument. It’s an assertion. And one completely without merit. The entire point of money is that it is a store of value, not a thing of value. It is not an asset. You can use money to pay any debt, public or private. You cannot use stock to do so.
You are wrong, obviously so, and I appreciate you making your argument this obviously stretched and lame. It’s good for people to see the extent to which you’ll deny reality.
| 329 |
iossarian Mon, Sep 19, 2011 12:02:23pm |
re: #322 Buck
All correct, but we are discussing if Dividends are always profit. I have always said they were income. Unearned income, and taxed at a lower rate than earned income in order to be an incentive for investment. Investment (over all) creates jobs and is good for the economy.
Noted shift to RW talking point bullshit.
| 330 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Sep 19, 2011 12:03:44pm |
re: #327 000G
Technically incorrect, as you would notice if you ever happened to be late to a run on your bank. :-)
Heh. True. But, assuming no failure of the financial system, it is. I mean, we could also have the government collapse and money lose its value, too.
| 331 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Mon, Sep 19, 2011 12:05:00pm |
re: #330 Obdicut
Heh. True. But, assuming no failure of the financial system, it is. I mean, we could also have the government collapse and money lose its value, too.
And this is why GOLD!!!1
| 332 |
iossarian Mon, Sep 19, 2011 12:05:13pm |
Buck - re your assertion that “investment is good for the economy”:
Which has the greater economic impact?
- $1 of untaxed dividend paid to shareholder
- $1 of government investment in infrastructure
- $1 of food stamps
| 333 |
Carlos Diggler Mon, Sep 19, 2011 12:05:52pm |
re: #322 Buck
Unearned income, and taxed at a lower rate than earned income in order to be an incentive for investment. Investment (over all) creates jobs and is good for the economy.
Binary thinking. Raise taxes, less investment, de-creates jobs and is therefore bad for the economy?
Tell me something. If Capital Gains is raised from 17 to 23%, how many jobs will be lost?
| 334 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 12:07:30pm |
re: #324 allegro
This (the bold) is the point that you totally fail to support. Why/how would taxing it at the same rate as any other income create less incentive for investment?
Some unearned income is taxed at the regular income tax rate; other unearned income is taxed at a lower rate, often to encourage further investment. Making further investment less attractive would create less incentive for investment.
Supply and demand. If dividend income is in less demand (it is less attractive than it once was) then buying the instruments that provide dividend income would become more plentiful, and their values would drop.
| 335 |
Carlos Diggler Mon, Sep 19, 2011 12:08:26pm |
re: #332 iossarian
Buck - re your assertion that “investment is good for the economy”:
Which has the greater economic impact?
- $1 of untaxed dividend paid to shareholder
- $1 of government investment in infrastructure
- $1 of food stamps
Some dollars are more Equal than others Comrade.
| 336 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 12:11:40pm |
re: #332 iossarian
Buck - re your assertion that “investment is good for the economy”:
Which has the greater economic impact?
- $1 of untaxed dividend paid to shareholder
- $1 of government investment in infrastructure
- $1 of food stamps
Not a fair question. Not enough known about the investments. Untaxed dividend? I don’t know what that means. Is the $1 of government investment borrowed by the government? Is the $1 of food stamps borrowed by the government?
| 337 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 12:13:39pm |
re: #334 Buck
If dividend income is in less demand (it is less attractive than it once was) then buying the instruments that provide dividend income would become more plentiful, and their values would drop.
I meant to say:
If dividend income is in less demand (it is less attractive than it once was) then buying the instruments that provide dividend income would become less desirable, and therefore more plentiful, and their values would drop.
| 338 |
iossarian Mon, Sep 19, 2011 12:14:23pm |
re: #336 Buck
Not a fair question. Not enough known about the investments. Untaxed dividend? I don’t know what that means. Is the $1 of government investment borrowed by the government? Is the $1 of food stamps borrowed by the government?
It’s $1 of corporate profit. It either goes to a shareholder in his dividend or (because the tax rate goes up) it goes to the government and thence to infrastructure investment or food stamps.
| 339 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Mon, Sep 19, 2011 12:18:10pm |
re: #337 Buck
I meant to say:
If dividend income is in less demand (it is less attractive than it once was) then buying the instruments that provide dividend income would become less desirable, and therefore more plentiful, and their values would drop.
This is assuming that alternative investments would automatically be favored over stocks that pay out dividends because the latter get taxed more. This is not neccessarily true. Investment in stocks that pay dividends might still be the best possible investment for a lot of investors.
| 340 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 12:21:07pm |
re: #338 iossarian
It’s $1 of corporate profit. It either goes to a shareholder in his dividend or (because the tax rate goes up) it goes to the government and thence to infrastructure investment or food stamps.
Then the first is NOT untaxed. It is taxed (otherwise how does it end up in the governments hands.
In your example, the money has to travel first to a shareholder in order to be taxed. Without that happening first, the other investments can’t be made.
So number one doesn’t happen, and so what is left is #2 or #3. I think #2 is better for the economy.
| 341 |
iossarian Mon, Sep 19, 2011 12:26:10pm |
re: #340 Buck
Then the first is NOT untaxed. It is taxed (otherwise how does it end up in the governments hands.
In your example, the money has to travel first to a shareholder in order to be taxed. Without that happening first, the other investments can’t be made.
So number one doesn’t happen, and so what is left is #2 or #3. I think #2 is better for the economy.
OK, Buck, I have to go unfortunately, but this is what makes these debates frustrating - your lack of understanding of basic financial concepts. Sometimes, I’m afraid it appears to be willful.
I’m saying, this is a marginal dollar. At a lower tax rate, it would go to the shareholder. At a higher tax rate, it would go to the government.
In the first case, the whole dollar appears in Warren Buffet’s bank account. He can then decide what to do with it. In the second, it appears on a government revenue ledger and can be spent on various projects.
I think even you would agree that not all government spending is bad - it’s about finding the right amount. Blanket statements like: “this is investment, which creates jobs and is good for the economy” are just noise.
Anyway, got to go now.
| 342 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 12:27:33pm |
re: #333 BigPapa
Binary thinking. Raise taxes, less investment, de-creates jobs and is therefore bad for the economy?
Tell me something. If Capital Gains is raised from 17 to 23%, how many jobs will be lost?
Depends on how the economy is doing. Right now there are less capital gains. However if you were looking for an investment, you should consider what your exit plan is. Both if it goes up in value, or goes down. Getting a break on your cap gains might be a benefit that steers you to an investment that helps create jobs (rather than your mattress).
| 343 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Sep 19, 2011 12:30:24pm |
re: #342 Buck
Ah, so you think people will, as an alternative to investing in stocks, put their money in their mattresses.
Yeah, no. Unless you’re expecting deflation, you know, absolutely, you will lose money.
| 344 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 12:31:48pm |
re: #341 iossarian
I’m saying, this is a marginal dollar. At a lower tax rate, it would go to the shareholder. At a higher tax rate, it would go to the government.
Look you ask the question, and then when I say it is unclear you still fail to fully explain yourself, and you say I am ignorant when I didn’t read your mind. You are changing the question after I gave my answer.
Funny how that works.
| 345 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 12:35:21pm |
re: #339 000G
This is assuming that alternative investments would automatically be favored over stocks that pay out dividends because the latter get taxed more. This is not neccessarily true. Investment in stocks that pay dividends might still be the best possible investment for a lot of investors.
Ya, might be. But I am saying that my opinion is that dividends might still be the best possible investment for LESS investors. Not that the stock market will be completely abandoned.
| 346 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Sep 19, 2011 12:36:49pm |
re: #345 Buck
Dividends aren’t an investment.
| 347 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 12:37:01pm |
re: #343 Obdicut
Ah, so you think people will, as an alternative to investing in stocks, put their money in their mattresses.
Not all people and not really a mattress. That is an expression.
| 349 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Sep 19, 2011 12:38:05pm |
re: #347 Buck
Not all people and not really a mattress. That is an expression.
But please be explicit: Where would they put their money instead of investing it in stocks?
| 350 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Sep 19, 2011 12:39:37pm |
re: #348 Buck
Dividend paying stocks… nit picker…
Whether or not a stock pays a dividend is decided yearly. You can assume they’ll keep paying it, but you may very well be wrong.
So, to recap:
When you said the hedge manager earned the money he made in dividends, you didn’t actually mean he earned it.
Even though you can’t buy anything with stock, you’re convinced it’s money.
And I a nitpicker.
Yeah.
| 351 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Mon, Sep 19, 2011 12:41:14pm |
re: #349 Obdicut
But please be explicit: Where would they put their money instead of investing it in stocks?
I think he means stuff like this: littlegreenfootballs.com
| 352 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Sep 19, 2011 12:43:20pm |
re: #351 000G
Heh. But how can that be happening? We have a low capital gains rate.
Obviously we need to lower it!
//
| 353 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 12:43:32pm |
re: #349 Obdicut
But please be explicit: Where would they put their money instead of investing it in stocks?
Off shore? My uncle bought a house in Nassau and never paid a dime of income tax after that.
Would Buffet do that? Maybe not, but his portfolio would take a HUGE hit. You might tax his income at a higher rate (double), but if he earns half as much does the government come out ahead?
From my initial example, does the government want 15% of four million, or 30% of two million?
| 354 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Mon, Sep 19, 2011 12:43:36pm |
re: #345 Buck
Ya, might be. But I am saying that my opinion is that dividends might still be the best possible investment for LESS investors. Not that the stock market will be completely abandoned.
But the cost for investing has not been raised when gains on stocks get taxed more. So why would there be less investors when we can safely assume there would still be gains to be made from investing in stock?
| 355 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Mon, Sep 19, 2011 12:44:23pm |
re: #352 Obdicut
Heh. But how can that be happening? We have a low capital gains rate.
Obviously we need to lower it!
//
No, now we shift the debate to how the Bush tax cuts need to be made permanent in order to boost confidence.
| 356 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Sep 19, 2011 12:46:27pm |
re: #353 Buck
Off shore? My uncle bought a house in Nassau and never paid a dime of income tax after that.
So why aren’t they doing this in total now? I mean, there’s plenty of offshore investments in places with much lower taxes. So why aren’t they already solely investing overseas?
Would Buffet do that? Maybe not, but his portfolio would take a HUGE hit. You might tax his income at a higher rate (double), but if he earns half as much does the government come out ahead?
Are you purposefully ignoring that Buffet wants to pay a higher tax? And how would his portfolio take a hit? The value of his stocks wouldn’t change at all. So can you explain how his portfolio would take a hit?
| 357 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 12:47:06pm |
re: #354 000G
But the cost for investing has not been raised when gains on stocks get taxed more.
Are we still talking about the difference between Dividend earnings?
The cost for investing would go up if the tax on dividend income is raised.
| 358 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Sep 19, 2011 12:47:48pm |
re: #357 Buck
Oh really? How much would it cost for me to invest five million on stock if the tax on dividend income was raised?
| 359 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Mon, Sep 19, 2011 12:47:57pm |
re: #357 Buck
The cost for investing would go up if the tax on dividend income is raised.
Explain how.
| 360 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 12:50:47pm |
re: #356 Obdicut
Are you purposefully ignoring that Buffet wants to pay a higher tax? And how would his portfolio take a hit? The value of his stocks wouldn’t change at all. So can you explain how his portfolio would take a hit?
I am not ignoring anything. I am saying that he (and the President) fail to explain how to safely do that without causing damage to the economy.
And I explain how doubling the tax rate on dividend income would cause the value of the stock to go down in my #334
| 362 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Sep 19, 2011 12:52:46pm |
re: #360 Buck
Why would dividend income be less in demand? Can I remind you you’ve dodged the question of what else they’re going to spend their money on, either than stock?
| 363 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Sep 19, 2011 12:53:05pm |
re: #361 Buck
If in invested five million dollars tomorrow in stock, Buck, what would my costs for doing so be?
| 364 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Mon, Sep 19, 2011 12:53:57pm |
re: #360 Buck
And I explain how doubling the tax rate on dividend income would casue the value of the stock to go down in my #334
Which, aside from whether that is a true or correct explanation, does nothing to explain how taxing dividend income would make investing in stocks more costly. I think you actually shot yourself in the foot here: Stock going down in value would make it even more accessable as investment because with lowered prices for purchasing stock investors actually have less costs, not more.
| 365 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Mon, Sep 19, 2011 12:54:43pm |
| 366 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 12:55:52pm |
re: #363 Obdicut
If in invested five million dollars tomorrow in stock, Buck, what would my costs for doing so be?
I answered your question regarding how people might choose to not invest in the stock market if the government doubled the tax rate of dividend income.
That would depend on a lot of things. You might think it is $5 million, but it is not.
| 368 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Sep 19, 2011 12:57:09pm |
re: #366 Buck
What would my costs be if I invested five million in the stock market tomorrow, Buck, and how would the tax on dividends affect it?
If you’re unable to answer the question, just say so.
| 369 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Sep 19, 2011 1:01:05pm |
If you have capital to invest, there is no way to invest that capital that does not wind up with the income being unearned income. That is the nature of capital.
Your choices are to put the money in a mattress— where it will lose value according to inflation. Or you can spend it— you can buy goods and services, but of course there’s only so much you can consume.
You can buy tax-preferential status things, like bonds, which give tax-free investment income— at much lower rates of increase. Which is what a lot of people are now doing, because they’re scared by the lack of demand in the market. Not because taxes on dividends are at any specific level. Or taxes on capital gains. They’re seeking it because of the falling demand, caused by the decreased incomes in the middle and lower class.
That is the problem our society faces. an increasing divide between the very rich and the rest of society. Which means lower and lower demand.
| 370 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 1:01:20pm |
re: #368 Obdicut
What would my costs be if I invested five million in the stock market tomorrow, Buck, and how would the tax on dividends affect it?
If you’re unable to answer the question, just say so.
I already answered your question.
However you don’t provide enough data. I gave a couple of really good examples in my posts of how a higher tax rate on dividend income would mean the investment costs more to the investor.
OR that a lower tax rate on dividend income reduces the cost of a dividend paying investment for the investor, and can be an incentive to investment.
Either or…
| 371 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Mon, Sep 19, 2011 1:01:35pm |
re: #367 Buck
Yes I do.
No. You ramble a lot in there, granted. But you do nothing to explain how raising taxes on dividend income supposedly makes it more costly to invest in stocks. You can’t, because it would not. Dividend income gets taxed after you have already invested in stocks. And if you have not invested in stocks yet, you do not have any dividend income that is about to get taxed. So raising taxes on dividend incomes actually does nothing to raise costs of investing in stock.
| 372 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Sep 19, 2011 1:03:11pm |
re: #370 Buck
No, you dodged the question.
A higher or lower tax on dividends would not affect my costs at all, except to the extent that it depressed the price of the stock. It has no possibility of raising my costs. Your claim was false.
| 373 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 1:03:43pm |
re: #371 000G
No. You ramble a lot in there, granted. But you do nothing to explain how raising taxes on dividend income supposedly makes it more costly to invest in stocks. You can’t, because it would not. Dividend income gets taxed after you have already invested in stocks. And if you have not invested in stocks yet, you do not have any dividend income that is about to get taxed. So raising taxes on dividend incomes actually does nothing to raise costs of investing in stock.
I, and other investors calculate the whole cost. My tax bill should not be a big surprise. I have to factor my taxes into the decision.
| 374 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Sep 19, 2011 1:05:01pm |
re: #373 Buck
I, and other investors calculate the whole cost. My tax bill should not be a big surprise. I have to factor my taxes into the decision.
How can you factor taxes into the equation when you have no idea if you’ll receive a dividend?
How would a tax on the dividend be a cost for the investment? Why isn’t it, well, a tax on the dividend, that doesn’t affect the cost of the investment at all?
| 375 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Mon, Sep 19, 2011 1:06:47pm |
re: #373 Buck
I, and other investors calculate the whole cost. My tax bill should not be a big surprise. I have to factor my taxes into the decision.
You may calculate “the whole cost” all you want, that’s your prerogative. You still have not shown how the specific cost of making an investment by purchasing stock would have risen by having raised taxes on dividend income.
You could even argue, that raised taxes would leave you with less money to reinvest. However, that would still do nothing to show how the specific cost of purchasing stock would have grown due to raised taxes on dividend earnings.
| 376 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 1:08:25pm |
re: #369 Obdicut
“buy tax-preferential status things”
But then the government would not get the tax income. You seriously fail to see a lower rate on dividend (or cap gains) income to be a form of “tax-preferential status things”.
AND if they are buying other “tax-preferential status things” instead of dividend paying stocks, then the demand for dividend paying stocks would go down. The supply of dividend paying stocks would stay the same….
And the government would not get the huge windfall of tax income that it expects.
| 377 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 1:10:07pm |
re: #374 Obdicut
How can you factor taxes into the equation when you have no idea if you’ll receive a dividend?
When I buy the stock, I know if it is a dividend stock. Sure it might get cut, that is the risk, but I know (for example) that Microsoft pays a dividend.
| 378 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Sep 19, 2011 1:10:35pm |
re: #376 Buck
But then the government would not get the tax income. You seriously fail to see a lower rate on dividend (or cap gains) income to be a form of “tax-preferential status things”.
No, I don’t. At the moment, they do give tax-preferential status. Just not as much as bonds.
AND if they are buying other “tax-preferential status things” instead of dividend paying stocks, then the demand for dividend paying stocks would go down. The supply of dividend paying stocks would stay the same…
Why would the demand go down? The reason people are buying the bonds aren’t because of their tax status, but because of their surety.
And the government would not get the huge windfall of tax income that it expects.
Oh right, because they’d all just invest their money ‘offshore’.
Can you remind me again why you say they don’t already do this with all their money, since there’s plenty of places where taxes on capital gains are lower or non-existent?
| 379 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 1:12:19pm |
re: #375 000G
You may calculate “the whole cost” all you want, that’s your prerogative. You still have not shown how the specific cost of making an investment by purchasing stock would have risen by having raised taxes on dividend income.
You could even argue, that raised taxes would leave you with less money to reinvest. However, that would still do nothing to show how the specific cost of purchasing stock would have grown due to raised taxes on dividend earnings.
Well we disagree about how to calculate the cost of an investment. If I have a choice, all things being equal, I would try and invest in something that might cost me less in taxes rather than more.
| 380 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Sep 19, 2011 1:12:24pm |
re: #377 Buck
When I buy the stock, I know if it is a dividend stock. Sure it might get cut, that is the risk, but I know (for example) that Microsoft pays a dividend.
If Microsoft were to lose significant market share, they wouldn’t pay out a dividend. If their profitability were to drop massively, they wouldn’t pay a dividend. You don’t know it, you just expect it.
And that is not a cost on the investment, it is a tax you have to pay when receiving the profit from the dividend. It doesn’t make it any more costly to invest. It makes it a little less profitable to get a dividend.
That is all.
| 381 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Sep 19, 2011 1:12:38pm |
re: #379 Buck
But all other things are not equal, Buck.
| 382 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 1:13:51pm |
re: #380 Obdicut
I understand that you don’t see “more costly” as the same thing as “less profitable”.
I however do.
Such is life.
| 383 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Mon, Sep 19, 2011 1:17:51pm |
re: #379 Buck
Well we disagree about how to calculate the cost of an investment.
If by “we disagree” you mean that you just use a false definition of “cost of an investment” because you are not looking at the losses incurred during the actual transaction in question but at some hypothetical future net balance, then yes: We disagree.
If I have a choice, all things being equal, I would try and invest in something that might cost me less in taxes rather than more.
I would suggest investing in something that ultimatively strengthens your property positions rather than just running away from taxes. Taxes might actually bolster your property positions.
| 384 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Sep 19, 2011 1:20:40pm |
re: #382 Buck
Yes. I understand that a tax is not a cost— it is something I don’t have to pay if I make no profit. If I don’t get income, I have no cost. So, there is no way that a tax on dividends makes investment more costly.
I also understand the very, very basic fact of capitalism that stock is not money, which seems to have escaped you. Have you ever tried to pay for anything using stock? I’d have thought it’d have become readily apparent to you at that point.
And can you explain why you haven’t solely invested in places that have lower rates of taxation? Why do you invest at all in the US, Canada, or other places with significant capital gains taxes?
| 385 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 1:25:28pm |
re: #383 000G
a false definition of “cost of an investment” because you are not looking at the losses incurred during the actual transaction in question but at some hypothetical future net balance, then yes: We disagree.
OK, in your opinion it is false. Seriously.
If you ONLY considered the immediate cost (loss), then you would lose money on every transaction (commission). Or if you don’t have an initial cost then every investment is a break even (no commission). Why would you EVER invest anything with that as the only view you have of the transaction?
Of course you have to weight the risk and reward of “some hypothetical future net balance”.
You hope to have the judgement to reduce how hypothetical it is, but for sure that is what you are considering.
You want a sure thing? Play the “Make Change” machine next to the vending machine. You won’t make money, but you wont lose either…
| 386 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Sep 19, 2011 1:30:24pm |
re: #385 Buck
If you ONLY considered the immediate cost (loss), then you would lose money on every transaction (commission).
You do lose a little money on the transaction. You hope to gain it back in the future, and far more besides.
Of course you have to weight the risk and reward of “some hypothetical future net balance”.
Yes, absolutely. That doesn’t suddenly transform the tax on dividends into a tax on investment.
You want a sure thing? Play the “Make Change” machine next to the vending machine. You won’t make money, but you wont lose either…
Exactly, Buck! I’m glad you’re getting it. if you keep the money simply as money, you’ll lose value to inflation. The only use of capital is as investment.
Now, can you explain why you invest any money in the US or Canada, and not, say, in Barbados?
| 387 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 1:31:32pm |
re: #384 Obdicut
tax is not a cost
OK, again we disagree. Maybe we don’t agree on what a “cost” is. I mean an expense. It shows up on the Expense part of my Income and Expense sheet.
If I want to decide on an investment I want to know, up front, what my tax rate is on the return.
I invest in different countries for a number of reasons. Sometimes because I see an opportunity for higher gains. However, if the higher gains will be taxed away, I would probably not invest.
| 388 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Sep 19, 2011 1:32:22pm |
re: #387 Buck
Sure. It’s an expense. It’s an expense that comes with a profit. it does not come as a cost of investment.
I
invest in different countries for a number of reasons. Sometimes because I see an opportunity for higher gains. However, if the higher gains will be taxed away, I would probably not invest.
Why don’t you invest all your money in countries that have 0% capital gains tax, Buck?
| 389 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Mon, Sep 19, 2011 1:33:23pm |
re: #385 Buck
If you ONLY considered the immediate cost (loss), then you would lose money on every transaction (commission). Or if you don’t have an initial cost then every investment is a break even (no commission). Why would you EVER invest anything with that as the only view you have of the transaction?
It is not “the only view I have”. You are arguing a straw man.
You were the one who initially claimed that costs for investing in stocks would go up from taxes on dividend income being raised (you have not shown this one bit). This is why we are talking about this to begin with: You made this specific inane claim. And ever since you have diverted the discussion or made dodged when the inanity of it has been pointed out to you.
Of course you have to weight the risk and reward of “some hypothetical future net balance”.
Sure. But this is not the same as assessing what a specific cost for a specific transaction is going to be. And of course the difference between the two is meaningful. This is what you fail to comprehend or refuse to admit.
| 390 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 1:38:40pm |
re: #388 Obdicut
Sure. It’s an expense. It’s an expense that comes with a profit. it does not come as a cost of investment.
Why don’t you invest all your money in countries that have 0% capital gains tax, Buck?
Who is talking about capital gains?
You and I still disagree on if dividend income is profit. So for example Microsoft pays about 3% on the investment in dividends. I pay a lower tax rate on that income than I do on earned income. So I have an incentive to invest in a dividend stock (or dividend pension fund). I don’t know if I will get a profit, but I still have to pay the tax on the dividend income.
AND I DO SO WILLINGLY, however my point is that the incentive is there, and I think if you remove it, there will be a backlash. A cost to the economy.
| 391 |
Buck Mon, Sep 19, 2011 1:52:50pm |
re: #389 000G
costs for investing in stocks would go up from taxes on dividend income being raised
I have only failed to show that because YOU don’t agree that higher taxes on dividends means that there is a higher cost to the investor of a dividend paying stock.
| 392 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Mon, Sep 19, 2011 1:55:45pm |
re: #391 Buck
I have only failed to show that because YOU don’t agree that higher taxes on dividends means that there is a higher cost to the investor of a dividend paying stock.
This would be false even if we let aside the question whether taxes are costs because the investment gets made prior to the taxation. Hence the entry level for the investment, the actual cost for the investment, i.e. the purchase price of the stock, stays the same, no matter what the tax on the likely dividend is going to be. This is not a matter of opinion.
| 393 |
Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut Mon, Sep 19, 2011 2:40:33pm |
re: #390 Buck
Dividends are capital gains.
Why don’t you already invest all your money in Babados, with 0% capital gains?
Can you please stop dodging this question?
| 394 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Tue, Sep 20, 2011 2:17:12am |
Is this a follow-up?: littlegreenfootballs.com
| 395 |
Buck Tue, Sep 20, 2011 9:59:14am |
re: #394 000G
Is this a follow-up?: [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]
No really. I am talking about dividends, not capital gains.
Despite Obdicut’s “Dividends are capital gains”, they are not the same thing.
A capital gains tax (CGT) is a tax charged on capital gains, the profit realized on the sale of a non-inventory asset that was purchased at a lower price.
Dividends are payments made by a corporation to its shareholder members. There is no sale of the asset.
Sometimes a company, hedge fund or mutual fund can sell an asset and generate a cap gain. They can then distribute that cap gain to the shareholders. Sometimes that is called a Capital Gain Dividend. However it is not a dividend.
Dividend stocks can generate income for the shareholder. What I am trying to discuss is what effect there would be if that special (classified as unearned by the current tax code) income was taxed at the same rate as earned income. That is how many wealthy individuals currently pay a lower tax rate on their income. A portion is taxed at the flat rate of 15% because it is unearned income.
| 396 |
Buck Tue, Sep 20, 2011 10:06:29am |
re: #393 Obdicut
Dividends are capital gains.
Why don’t you already invest all your money in Babados, with 0% capital gains?
Can you please stop dodging this question?
I am not dodging anything. I answered you as best I could. It is a stupid question (again).
There is no general answer for why I buy one stock over the other. Maybe you make decisions that way, but I told you I don’t. “I invest in different countries for a number of reasons. ” That is the answer. Not the one you wanted, but the answer none the less.
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