How PRISM Really Works, and How Tech Companies Protect Innocent Users

Facts, not hyperbole
Technology • Views: 27,313
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Josh Constine has a good piece at TechCrunch on how the PRISM system actually works, and how the tech companies accused by Glenn Greenwald of handing over your data to the NSA are actually building safeguards to protect their users’ privacy: Tech Giants Built Segregated Systems for NSA Instead of Firehoses to Protect Innocent Users From PRISM.

The NSA may have wanted full firehoses of data from Google, Facebook and other tech giants, but the companies attempted to protect innocent users from monitoring via compliance systems that created segregated data before securely handing it over as required by law, according to individuals familiar with the systems used by the tech companies targeted by PRISM.

The widely criticized corroboration with the NSA therefore may have benefited citizens rather than being to their detriment.

My sources confirm that the NSA did not have direct access or any special instant access to data or servers at the PRISM targets, but instead had to send requests to the companies for the data. These requests must be complied with by law, but only if the government narrowly defines what it’s looking for. The government may have initially requested a firehose of data, and was happy to take this full data dump from the tech companies and sort it itself. Had the tech giants simply accepted these requests at the minimum level required by law, many innocent citizens’ data could have been monitored.

By working to create “a locked mailbox and give the government the key” which the New York Times reported, rather than allowing widespread monitoring, the firehose is restricted to a trickle of specific requests. When the NSA has specific people they want to data about, they make a specific, legal request for that data that the tech companies are required to comply with. Google or Facebook then puts the specific requested data into the locked mailbox where the government can access it. This keeps requested data about suspected terrorists or other people who are threats to national security segregated from that of innocent users.

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201 comments
1 Randall Gross  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 12:09:25pm

Just as I suspected, it’s what we already knew, it just has a name now. This is key:

However, in the last year, there were only 1,865 FISA requests for data. Some believe those requests could include data pulls as broad as anyone who searched a specific term. Legal experts I’ve consulted, though, believe the requests must be more narrow than that for the tech companies to have not pushed back. That means the the number of people monitored by PRISM may have been in the thousands or tens of thousands, rather than in the tens or even hundreds of millions.

2 Gus  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 12:15:01pm

Greenwalded.

3 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 12:16:48pm

Glenn Greenwald’s “direct access” Powerpoint slides may have meant nothing more than these special locked mailboxes. But Greenwald engineered a giant anti-Obama freakout based on the false claim that the NSA had direct access to everything these tech companies had on their servers.

This really is a massive fail. I wonder if any of the Sunday shows who’ve invited Greenwald on will ask him about the fact that his entire “scoop” has collapsed to nothing?

4 Targetpractice  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 12:16:51pm

Does it seem that, with each passing week of this year, we’re getting a deeper glimpse into just how much of a joke the media is? Seriously, imagine Glenn Greenwald making these accusations even 20 years ago. The media would have breathlessly harped on it for days and we’d never have found out the truth because the denials by the named companies would be buried on page A16 or played on the 11pm news. There would be no way for them to get their message out to a larger audience because the only outlets would be controlled by media outlets invested in keeping the “scandal” alive to farm the ratings.

5 AntonSirius  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 12:18:47pm

This is just an NSA sting operation ordered by Obummer to try and discredit Greenwald as an authoritah on privicy and natonal security! He was getting too close to the truth!!!!!11!!111!1

6 piratedan  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 12:20:24pm

re: #3 Charles Johnson

that would suggest evidence that our MSM actually practices journalism, so I have to say that this presumes facts not in evidence. See examples:

ACA legislation
Shirley Sherrod
ACORN
Benghazi
etc etc etc

7 AntonSirius  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 12:20:53pm

re: #4 Targetpractice

Does it seem that, with each passing week of this year, we’re getting a deeper glimpse into just how much of a joke the media is? Seriously, imagine Glenn Greenwald making these accusations even 20 years ago. The media would have breathlessly harped on it for days and we’d never have found out the truth because the denials by the named companies would be buried on page A16 or played on the 11pm news. There would be no way for them to get their message out to a larger audience because the only outlets would be controlled by media outlets invested in keeping the “scandal” alive to farm the ratings.

20 years ago they wouldn’t have necessarily rushed the story out in a mad scramble to shout “first!” like a comment thread fanboy, and might not have screwed it up in the first place.

8 jaunte  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 12:20:56pm

re: #2 Gus

Greenwalded.

“Whiff of McCarthyite Jingoism.”

What a phrasemaker.

9 Stanghazi  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 12:22:24pm

re: #6 piratedan

that would suggest evidence that our MSM actually practices journalism, so I have to say that this presumes facts not in evidence. See examples:

ACA legislation
Shirley Sherrod
ACORN
Benghazi
etc etc etc

Pretty much guarantee this will be old news by Wednesday. The media will be onto it’s next freak out.

10 Targetpractice  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 12:23:15pm

re: #7 AntonSirius

20 years ago they wouldn’t have necessarily rushed the story out in a mad scramble to shout “first!” like a comment thread fanboy, and might not have screwed it up in the first place.

Yeah, I just don’t believe that anymore. They spent the 90s reporting breathlessly on everything that came out of the Whitewater “investigation,” were quick to treat “Monicagate” as an earth-shattering revelation, and then tried to act as if they were victims when the GOP’s house of cards came tumbling down.

11 jaunte  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 12:23:45pm
12 AntonSirius  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 12:24:26pm

re: #10 Targetpractice

Yeah, I just don’t believe that anymore. They spent the 90s reporting breathlessly on everything that came out of the Whitewater “investigation,” were quick to treat “Monicagate” as an earth-shattering revelation, and then tried to act as if they were victims when the GOP’s house of cards came tumbling down.

OK, 40 years then.

13 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 12:24:26pm

And Greenwald just released another article: Boundless Informant: The NSA’s Secret Tool to Track Global Surveillance Data | World News | guardian.co.uk

14 jaunte  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 12:25:13pm

“Against this backdrop, we do not believe the executive branch is operating pursuant to ‘secret law’ or ‘secret opinions of the Department of Justice,’ ” [Assistant Attorney General Ronald Weich] wrote. “Rather, the intelligence community is conducting court-authorized intelligence activities pursuant to a public statute, with the knowledge and oversight of Congress and the Intelligence Committees of both houses.”
nytimes.com

15 Targetpractice  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 12:25:37pm

re: #12 AntonSirius

OK, 40 years then.

Watergate and the spawning of the belief that the media possessed the power to “bring down a president.”

16 Gus  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 12:25:53pm

re: #13 Charles Johnson

And Greenwald just released another article: Boundless Informant: The NSA’s Secret Tool to Track Global Surveillance Data | World News | guardian.co.uk

Business model. Trickle down journalism.

17 piratedan  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 12:26:59pm

re: #16 Gus

ummm, I believe the correct term is trickle ON journalism…..

18 AntonSirius  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 12:28:26pm

re: #13 Charles Johnson

And Greenwald just released another article: Boundless Informant: The NSA’s Secret Tool to Track Global Surveillance Data | World News | guardian.co.uk

So, they have a tool that creates pretty maps and large numbers to impress the people who decide their budgets. This is a national security threat how?

Greenwald’s getting played, and badly, by whoever’s “leaking” this stuff to him. His ego has swallowed him whole.

19 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 12:29:37pm

Man, Greenwald’s fans are almost as obnoxious as Andrew Breitbart’s.

20 AntonSirius  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 12:29:48pm

re: #15 Targetpractice

Watergate and the spawning of the belief that the media possessed the power to “bring down a president.”

Right, but at least they weren’t just getting tossed a scoop and rushing it to print without doing any real work. There were actual acts of journalism going on.

21 Gus  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 12:30:18pm

re: #17 piratedan

ummm, I believe the correct term is trickle ON journalism…..

On and on and on. So everyone flocks over to the Guardian. Massive pages hits and more advertising revenue.

22 AntonSirius  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 12:31:59pm

re: #19 Charles Johnson

Man, Greenwald’s fans are almost as obnoxious as Andrew Breitbart’s.

As yet, we haven’t seen a wave of Twitter icons appropriating the image of their messiah hero…

23 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 12:32:04pm
24 Batman  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 12:33:56pm

So…the government doesn’t know which pictures I’ve fapped to? Thank God, err, Google.

25 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 12:34:37pm
26 A Mom Anon  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 12:34:48pm

re: #21 Gus

Nah, I’ve seen enough. Greenwald doesn’t deserve this much attention. He showed who he was way before this. I’m not clicking on anything he’s written again, he’s proven he’s a hack who can’t take any sort of criticism. If I wanted to deal with that I’d go hang with my wingnut neighbors.

I will say one thing though, the man is not a progressive and he sure as hell isn’t a liberal. At best he’s a Paulian type libertarian. No thanks.

27 Targetpractice  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 12:35:04pm

re: #20 AntonSirius

Right, but at least they weren’t just getting tossed a scoop and rushing it to print without doing any real work. There were actual acts of journalism going on.

And this was before the invention of networks like CNN and the 24 hour news cycle.

28 jaunte  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 12:35:57pm

Meanwhile in the real economy:

…The leaks will likely overshadow President Obama’s important meeting with his Chinese counterpart about cyberattacks, says Michael Shear in the Times. (What, I ask, won’t be overshadowed by this story?) Brookings scholar Ken Lieberthal is quoted in this BBC News story about the upcoming discussions. He said that “we have a good idea of what they are stealing and the quantity is enormous.”
lawfareblog.com

………..

A report last month by the independent Commission on the Theft of American Intellectual Property put losses to the US from IP theft at as much as $300bn (£192bn) a year. It said 50-80% of the thefts were thought to be by China.

bbc.co.uk

29 abolitionist  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 12:37:16pm

Something looks way wrong here - PRISM

Maybe it’s not working quite like they’re saying it’s working.

30 AntonSirius  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 12:38:26pm

re: #27 Targetpractice

And this was before the invention of networks like CNN and the 24 hour news cycle.

Exactly. News is now about clickrates and ad revenue so the incentive is to be first and most outrageous, not to get it right.

31 Randall Gross  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 12:38:44pm

Our media actually loves cascading shit storms like this, it keeps them employed even while many among them know that it’s all overblown. Everybody loves a vast (fill in the blank) conspiracy, real or not.

32 Gus  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 12:44:58pm
33 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 12:47:29pm

Greenwald has more in common with Alex Jones than he does with any real reporter.

34 Ace-o-aces  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 12:47:33pm

Still, PRISM and the FISA law are troubling for their potential abuse:

The government may have initially requested a firehose of data, and was happy to take this full data dump from the tech companies and sort it itself. Had the tech giants simply accepted these requests at the minimum level required by law, many innocent citizens’ data could have been monitored.

I don’t think I should have to depend on Mark Zuckerberg for my privacy, it should be protected by law.

35 Gus  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 12:48:24pm

Yes, the NSA has something called “Boundless Informant” to collect intelligence around the world. It’s done to keep America safe. So wait a minute here. Are these people suggesting the USA not maintain a global intelligence gathering network?

36 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 12:48:47pm
37 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 12:49:41pm
38 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 12:51:07pm

From Greenwald’s new article:

Other documents seen by the Guardian further demonstrate that the NSA does in fact break down its surveillance intercepts which could allow the agency to determine how many of them are from the US. The level of detail includes individual IP addresses.

IP address is not a perfect proxy for someone’s physical location but it is rather close, said Chris Soghoian, the principal technologist with the Speech Privacy and Technology Project of the American Civil Liberties Union. “If you don’t take steps to hide it, the IP address provided by your internet provider will certainly tell you what country, state and, typically, city you are in,” Soghoian said.

This is just completely simplistic and wrong. Your IP address does NOT “certainly” tell anyone your country, state or city. There are tools to look up this information but they are very often incorrect. And this:

IP address is not a perfect proxy for someone’s physical location but it is rather close…

…is also just flat wrong. Some IP addresses may help determine physical location, but lots and lots of them don’t, or at best will tell you something so general that they’re not very useful for finding people.

Even if you postulate that the NSA has access to better IP/location databases, this stuff changes constantly, and people who want their locations to be private have many options to mask or obfuscate their IP addresses - for example, the TOR system.

What crap.

39 Decatur Deb  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 12:51:27pm

re: #34 Ace-o-aces

Still, PRISM and the FISA law are troubling for their potential abuse:

I don’t think I should have to depend on Mark Zuckerberg for my privacy, it should be protected by law.

I feel ya, but it’s better to deal with Zuckerberg, who you know will sell you out, than a law that might be ‘interpreted’ or simply ignored. (Your shit is in the breeze either way. Welcome to the XXIst.)

40 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 12:52:09pm

Wow, Greenwald is one nasty piece of work.

41 Targetpractice  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 12:52:09pm

re: #25 NJDhockeyfan

So wait, he’s arguing that the Guardian’s intention from the beginning was to spark off a major outrage over the NSA digging through people’s data, implicating major companies in the operation, knowing it was all bullshit but looking to spark a public debate?

Call me crazy, but I don’t think the Guardians readers would appreciate it if the New York Times pulled a similar play, publishing a bullshit story about major British telecom companies working to share user data with the government for the purpose of sparking public outcry about something that’s not happening.

42 jaunte  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 12:52:47pm

re: #40 Charles Johnson

He’s not too busy to craft individual insults.

43 Decatur Deb  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 12:53:57pm

re: #42 jaunte

He’s not too busy to craft individual insults.

It’s the personal touch that closes the deal.

44 jaunte  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 12:54:32pm

re: #39 Decatur Deb

(Your shit is in the breeze either way. Welcome to the XXIst.)

“Government employees must be honor-bound not to observe semaphore or smoke signal communications.”

45 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 12:54:48pm

re: #42 jaunte

He sounds like a spoiled brat who has started a poo fling.

46 Gus  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 12:55:25pm

re: #40 Charles Johnson

Wow, Greenwald is one nasty piece of work.

47 Decatur Deb  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 12:55:46pm

re: #44 jaunte

“Government employees must be honor-bound not to observe semaphore or smoke signal communications.”

“Gentlemen do not read other people’s mail.”

(re: Zimmerman telegram, circa 1916.)

48 Ace-o-aces  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 12:57:19pm

re: #39 Decatur Deb

I feel ya, but it’s better to deal with Zuckerberg, who you know will sell you out, than a law that might be ‘interpreted’ or simply ignored. (Your shit is in the breeze either way. Welcome to the XXIst.)

And that’s why we need oversight.

49 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 12:57:24pm
50 Decatur Deb  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 12:58:09pm

re: #48 Ace-o-aces

And that’s why we need oversight.

That’s why we need to keep our own counsel.

51 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 12:58:55pm

re: #49 Charles Johnson

“Have someone show it to you.” This is a sentence fragment. He is far from literate.

52 Gus  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 12:59:59pm

re: #49 Charles Johnson

You getting the beardo swarm yet?

53 Gus  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:01:00pm

How dare you question His Majesty the Greenwald!

54 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:02:09pm

re: #53 Gus

I fully expect to hear/read the stream of insults. /

55 Sionainn  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:02:36pm

re: #10 Targetpractice

Yeah, I just don’t believe that anymore. They spent the 90s reporting breathlessly on everything that came out of the Whitewater “investigation,” were quick to treat “Monicagate” as an earth-shattering revelation, and then tried to act as if they were victims when the GOP’s house of cards came tumbling down.

That’s not 20 years!…oh, wait….

56 Amory Blaine  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:03:50pm

TOR is pretty easy to use too.

57 BroncD  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:04:21pm
…and how the tech companies accused by Glenn Greenwald of handing over your data to the NSA are actually building safeguards to protect their users’ privacy…

You don’t mean to suggest Greenwald pulled something out of his rear end, just on the off-chance it would make the Evil Obama look even more like George Bush? Because that’s just crazy.

58 dragonath  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:04:26pm

Jeez, is anyone ever going to tell Reddit?

59 abolitionist  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:05:21pm

June 7, 2013
Government Says Secret Court Opinion on Law Underlying PRISM Program Needs to Stay Secret

In a rare public filing in the secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISC), the Justice Department today urged continued secrecy for a 2011 FISC opinion that found the National Security Agency’s surveillance under the FISA Amendments Act to be unconstitutional. Significantly, the surveillance at issue was carried out under the same controversial legal authority that underlies the NSA’s recently-revealed PRISM program.

EFF filed a suit under the Freedom of Information Act in August 2012, seeking disclosure of the FISC ruling. Sens. Ron Wyden and Mark Udall revealed the existence of the opinion, which found that collection activities under FISA Section 702 “circumvented the spirit of the law” and violated the Fourth Amendment’s prohibition on unreasonable searches and seizures. But, at the time, the Senators were not permitted to discuss the details publicly. Section 702 has taken on new importance this week, as it appears to form the basis for the extensive PRISM surveillance program reported recently in the Guardian and the Washington Post.

A song by Jim Croce comes to mind here.

60 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:05:40pm

re: #56 Amory Blaine

TOR is pretty easy to use too.

Yeah, but I can’t figure how to do it with Ubuntu 13.04; it is cool - I had it on Windows XP.

61 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:07:50pm

re: #60 Dr Lizardo

Yeah, but I can’t figure how to do it with Ubuntu 13.04; it is cool - I had it on Windows XP.

Get the browser bundle from the tor site. You should just be able to click on the script that starts everything.

62 Ace-o-aces  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:08:28pm

re: #59 abolitionist

I think we need to take a step back and realize there is a real problem here. FISA is a bad law as currently written and we shouldn’t let that drop just because Glen Greenwald is a jerk on Twitter.

63 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:10:03pm

re: #61 Velvet Elvis

Get the browser bundle from the tor site. You should just be able to click on the script that starts everything.

I tried that - it doesn’t work.

Or I don’t know how to set it up within Ubuntu 13.04.

64 Gus  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:11:18pm

Shocking discovery! The NSA is carrying out its mission as defined by the executive and legislative branches with judicial oversight! Tune in tonight as we reveal more shocking discoveries!

65 piratedan  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:11:55pm

re: #62 Ace-o-aces

no argument, but GG didn’t put out a report that said we have a bad law or a flawed process, he instead leveled a charge of unsubstantiated government abuse with the WH being fully culpable and responsible for said abuse.

context, and what is it used for, etc etc etc

66 abolitionist  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:12:21pm

re: #38 Charles Johnson

From Greenwald’s new article:

This is just completely simplistic and wrong. Your IP address does NOT “certainly” tell anyone your country, state or city. There are tools to look up this information but they are very often incorrect. And this:

…is also just flat wrong. Some IP addresses may help determine physical location, but lots and lots of them don’t, or at best will tell you something so general that they’re not very useful for finding people.

Even if you postulate that the NSA has access to better IP/location databases, this stuff changes constantly, and people who want their locations to be private have many options to mask or obfuscate their IP addresses - for example, the TOR system.

What crap.

But we are not permitted by the powers that be (you) to access this site via TOR, according to policies you’ve expressed over several years. Is that still true?

67 Gus  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:13:51pm

Psst. Did you hear? The USAF and the US Navy have bombs.

68 jaunte  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:15:26pm
69 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:15:29pm

re: #66 abolitionist

No, that’s not correct - I don’t allow registration via TOR because of the obvious potential for abuse, but once you’re registered I don’t block it it in any way.

70 abolitionist  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:16:13pm

re: #69 Charles Johnson

Thanks for the clarification.

71 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:16:15pm

People (mostly on reddit) using the “freedom means some innocent people have to die every now and then” argument are driving me nuts. It’s the same thing the gun nuts say. Being 100% sure I’m free from government surveillance means my freedom to not be murdered in a public place is being infringed upon.

72 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:18:40pm

re: #63 Dr Lizardo

I tried that - it doesn’t work.

Or I don’t know how to set it up within Ubuntu 13.04.

Are you running 64 bit linux? It’s probobly a multi-arch thing if so. You need to install the i386 libraries.

help.ubuntu.com

73 Gus  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:18:56pm

re: #71 Velvet Elvis

People (mostly on reddit) using the “freedom means some innocent people have to die every now and then” argument are driving me nuts. It’s the same thing the gun nuts say. Being 100% sure I’m free from government surveillance means my freedom to not be murdered in a public place is being infringed upon.

Yeah, the old “should we just learn to live with terrorism in order to keep our freedom” argument. Right. Shouldn’t we just learn to live with mass shootings in order to keep our freedom? And we all know how “learning to live with terrorism” is working out in Pakistan.

74 Gus  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:19:18pm

Just learn to accept terrorism. What could go wrong?

75 jaunte  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:22:12pm

At the Atlantic, Conor Friedersdorf begins to worry that China might be able to spy on us.
theatlantic.com

SRSLY?

76 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:22:32pm

re: #51 PhillyPretzel

“Have someone show it to you.” This is a sentence fragment. He is far from literate.

It’s a complete sentence. What do you think is missing?

77 Gus  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:26:23pm

re: #75 jaunte

At the Atlantic, Conor Friedersdorf begins to worry that China might be able to spy on us.
theatlantic.com

SRSLY?

Oh brother. Please keep these people away from national security and military defense.

78 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:26:37pm
79 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:27:07pm

Now I’m an “Obama loyalist.”

80 jaunte  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:31:58pm

The Inerrancy of the Powerpoint.

81 abolitionist  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:32:00pm

re: #79 Charles Johnson

There are worse insults, surely.

82 Gus  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:32:16pm

re: #79 Charles Johnson

Now I’m an “Obama loyalist.”

That’s hilarious coming from a narcissistic man as Greenwald who has carefully crafted a cult following over the years.

83 wrenchwench  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:34:52pm

re: #81 abolitionist

There are worse insults, surely.

But to Greenwald, ‘Obama loyalist’ means you’d support him even if caught in the act of raping a nun. Greenwald said so in those words.

84 Targetpractice  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:35:28pm

re: #78 Charles Johnson

Greenwald’s accused of peddling bullshit, whines that the critics are attacking him for the peddling while asserting the bullshit should be taken seriously.

85 Gus  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:36:02pm

re: #83 wrenchwench

But to Greenwald, ‘Obama loyalist’ means you’d support him even if caught in the act of raping a nun. Greenwald said so in those words.

86 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:36:19pm

re: #84 Targetpractice

A brat throwing a hissy fit. /

87 boredtechindenver  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:37:42pm

And tonight, the stalkerblog will have a post praising Greenwald for “exposing” Charles.

88 Gus  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:37:59pm
89 Targetpractice  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:38:50pm

re: #88 Gus

Yeah, I’m working for the Obama Administration, but it’s only a side-job. I’m working in a sub shop for just above minimum wage because I’m a people person.

///

90 wrenchwench  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:43:54pm

re: #85 Gus

That’s actually worse than what I described.

91 Randall Gross  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:44:21pm

dni.gov

92 Gus  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:49:24pm
93 Randall Gross  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:50:12pm

From the DNI on Prism:

PRISM is not an undisclosed collection or data mining program. It is an internal government
computer system used to facilitate the government’s statutorily authorized collection of
foreign intelligence information from electronic communication service providers under
court supervision, as authorized by Section 702 of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act
(FISA) (50 U.S.C. § 1881a). This authority was created by the Congress and has been widely
known and publicly discussed since its inception in 2008.
 Under Section 702 of FISA, the United States Government does not unilaterally obtain
information from the servers of U.S. electronic communication service providers. All such
information is obtained with FISA Court approval and with the knowledge of the provider
based upon a written directive from the Attorney General and the Director of National
Intelligence. In short, Section 702 facilitates the targeted acquisition of foreign intelligence
information concerning foreign targets located outside the United States under court
oversight. Service providers supply information to the Government when they are lawfully
required to do so.
 The Government cannot target anyone under the court-approved procedures for Section 702
collection unless there is an appropriate, and documented, foreign intelligence purpose for the
acquisition (such as for the prevention of terrorism, hostile cyber activities, or nuclear
proliferation) and the foreign target is reasonably believed to be outside the United States.
We cannot target even foreign persons overseas without a valid foreign intelligence purpose.
 In addition, Section 702 cannot be used to intentionally target any U.S. citizen, or any other
U.S. person, or to intentionally target any person known to be in the United States. Likewise,
Section 702 cannot be used to target a person outside the United States if the purpose is to
acquire information from a person inside the United States.
 Finally, the notion that Section 702 activities are not subject to internal and external oversight
is similarly incorrect. Collection of intelligence information under Section 702 is subject to
an extensive oversight regime, incorporating reviews by the Executive, Legislative and
Judicial branches

94 Political Atheist  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:51:36pm

re: #81 abolitionist
re: #79 Charles Johnson

Now I’m an “Obama Facts loyalist.”

Fixed to fit the… fact.

95 Gus  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:51:55pm

re: #93 Randall Gross

From the DNI on Prism:

…used to facilitate the government’s statutorily authorized collection of foreign intelligence information from electronic communication service providers under court supervision, as authorized by Section 702 of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) (50 U.S.C. § 1881a).

96 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:52:12pm
97 Gus  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:52:59pm

re: #96 NJDhockeyfan

[Stares.]

98 Randall Gross  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:53:19pm

re: #95 Gus

Like I said at top of thread: nothing here we didn’t already know except the name of the government computer system the court ordered data releases are kept on.

99 Occam's Guillotine  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:53:56pm

I’ve been checking on the usual suspects today. The RWNJs are going absolutely ape-shit in their hyperbole and lies, and their desperation to get rid of the intrusive national security regime they were so eager to create just a few years ago.
They created DHS, they championed water-boarding, Gitmo, and secret legal proceedings. Before that they were the primary instigators of nearly every attack on civil liberties and privacy in this country in the last 50 years. To them, the constitutionally essential “Miranda warning” is an iconic and farcical example of liberal over-reach. They championed no-knock drug raids and the highway robbery known as drug asset forfeiture. They continue to gleefully advocate the death penalty despite the monumental scandal of dozens of death row exonerations.

It seems in fact that they only oppose authoritarian and intrusive government when they are not the ones in authority or doing the intruding.

100 Ojoe  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:54:31pm

I don’t believe any of these soft and fuzzy and perfumed reassurances from the government and the large communication companies.

101 BroncD  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:54:48pm

Greenwald really is one of the least-likable people in the world. No surprise that he attracts similarly unpleasant followers.

102 Political Atheist  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:55:11pm

re: #99 Occam’s Guillotine

It seems in fact that they only oppose authoritarian and intrusive government when they are not the ones in authority or doing the intruding.

Exactly.

103 Randall Gross  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:55:32pm

re: #99 Occam’s Guillotine

I’ve been checking on the usual suspects today. The RWNJs are going absolutely ape-shit in their hyperbole and lies, and their desperation to get rid of the intrusive national security regime they were so eager to create just a few years ago.
They created DHS, they championed water-boarding, Gitmo, and secret legal proceedings. Before that they were the primary instigators of nearly every attack on civil liberties and privacy in this country in the last 50 years. To them, the constitutionally essential “Miranda warning” is an iconic and farcical example of liberal over-reach. They championed no-knock drug raids and the highway robbery known as drug asset forfeiture. They continue to gleefully advocate the death penalty despite the monumental scandal of dozens of death row exonerations.

It seems in fact that they only oppose authoritarian and intrusive government when they are not the ones in authority or doing the intruding.

Glen might have actually steered us quite accidentally to a golden opportunity. If the wingnuts are all in a lather, maybe there’s the votes to eliminate or tone down FISA.

104 abolitionist  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:56:23pm

An equal-opportunity whistle-blower:
NSA Whistleblower: Everyone in US under virtual surveillance, all info stored.. Published on Dec 2, 2012

RT talks to William Binney, whistleblower and former NSA crypto-mathematician who served in the agency for decades.

I’d like to believe that some other lizards have heard of this guy.

105 A Mom Anon  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:57:16pm

re: #85 Gus

Asshole is the nicest thing I can think of to say. What is it with men and comparing bullshit with rape or using it to insult someone, or wishing in on anyone?

He’s loving all this shit too, he can be a victim, get attention and be on TV, maybe sell some more books. If I had his address, I’d send my copy of his first book back to him. I read his stuff back when he was a little old blogger on blogspot, about the time I began reading the early firedoglake blog. It’s like all those folks went off the rails at about the same time and they’ve only got worse since then.

106 Randall Gross  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:58:09pm

re: #104 abolitionist

Good find there, wouldn’t be surprised in the least if that’s the guy.

107 A Mom Anon  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:58:39pm

re: #79 Charles Johnson

Welcome to the dark side, mwahahaha! Not only do we have cookies, we have tiramisu and homemade ice cream.

108 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:58:48pm

WTF?

Paris museum opens exhibit of Palestinian ‘martyrs’

A Paris museum subsidized by the French government opened an exhibition of photos of Palestinian suicide bombers, which the museum calls freedom fighters.

The exhibition of 68 photos entitled “Death” by Ahlam Shibli opened on May 28 at the Jeu de Paume museum of contemporary art in Paris.

The museum’s website describes suicide bombers as “those who lost their lives fighting against the occupation,” and the exhibition as being about “the efforts of Palestinian society to preserve their presence.”

109 Gus  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:58:49pm

re: #104 abolitionist

An equal-opportunity whistle-blower:
NSA Whistleblower: Everyone in US under virtual surveillance, all info stored.. Published on Dec 2, 2012

I’d like to believe that some other lizards have heard of this guy.

Right. That’s why they stopped the Boston Bombers in time.

110 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 1:59:23pm

re: #103 Randall Gross

Glen might have actually steered us quite accidentally to a golden opportunity. If the wingnuts are all in a lather, maybe there’s the votes to eliminate or tone down FISA.

Why would that be good? Then it just goes back undercover like it was before the the courts. If you think this will ever stop, no matter what congress says & no matter who is president, I’ve got a bridge to sell you.

It was being done before I was born and will be going on long after I’m dead & I’ll 50 this year.

111 abolitionist  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 2:00:29pm

re: #106 Randall Gross

the guy ??

112 BroncD  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 2:01:08pm

re: #105 A Mom Anon

Here’s a crazy idea- idiots should stop comparing things to rape. Rape is a singularly horrible thing that doesn’t really invite comparison to anything else.
In other words, Transformers 2 didn’t rape anyone’s childhood.

113 Randall Gross  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 2:01:55pm

re: #110 William Barnett-Lewis

Why would that be good? Then it just goes back undercover like it was before the the courts. If you think this will ever stop, no matter what congress says & no matter who is president, I’ve got a bridge to sell you.

It was being done before I was born and will be going on long after I’m dead & I’ll 50 this year.

You make a good point, executive branch has always had extraordinary powers when it comes to foreign intel in foreign lands (past presidents used to intercept the real mail for instance.) I suspect if they put some more limits in it might tone down the number and depth of requests.

114 Randall Gross  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 2:02:37pm

re: #111 abolitionist

Glen’s whistle blower from the NSA - maybe it’s the same fellow that RT interviewed.

115 Political Atheist  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 2:03:47pm

Hmmm. A building populated with creative types, composer here, writer there, a couple photographers. A nice pool on a gorgeous day. Add a few beers and a couple GoPro cams with remote control and this could be an interesting afternoon.

116 abolitionist  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 2:06:22pm

re: #114 Randall Gross

Glen’s whistle blower from the NSA - maybe it’s the same fellow that RT interviewed.

Binny has said he quit the NSA in October 2001, because his work was being re-purposed for domestic surveillance, and not just foreign.

117 Gus  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 2:07:07pm

re: #116 abolitionist

Binny has said he quit the NSA in October 2011, because his work was being re-purposed for domestic surveilance, rather than foreign.

2001

118 abolitionist  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 2:08:09pm

re: #117 Gus

Oops. Right, 2001. [ed: my spelling is off today; Binney]

119 wrenchwench  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 2:17:30pm

re: #96 NJDhockeyfan



So the hard lefties are into being persecuted victims just like the hard righties.

120 jaunte  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 2:17:46pm

re: #119 wrenchwench

Bitching about the incompetent yet all-seeing government is a growth industry.

121 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 2:18:00pm

Whoever leaked those NSA docs is going to be in seriously hot water.

abcnews.go.com

122 wrenchwench  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 2:19:05pm

re: #110 William Barnett-Lewis

It was being done before I was born and will be going on long after I’m dead & I’ll 50 this year.

You’re older than you look.

123 Minor_L  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 2:20:12pm

The “Obama Loyalist” insult is a pathetic ad hominem. It demonstrates that the hurler of the insult can’t defend his positions or address the criticisms on the merits.

124 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 2:21:16pm

re: #122 wrenchwench

You’re older than you look.

???

125 wrenchwench  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 2:22:13pm

re: #124 William Barnett-Lewis

???

It’s not supposed to make sense, really. I thought you were younger.

126 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 2:22:49pm

re: #121 Charles Johnson

Whoever leaked those NSA docs is going to be in seriously hot water.

abcnews.go.com

They will become the next Bradley Manning.

127 Sionainn  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 2:23:15pm

re: #104 abolitionist

An equal-opportunity whistle-blower:
NSA Whistleblower: Everyone in US under virtual surveillance, all info stored.. Published on Dec 2, 2012

I’d like to believe that some other lizards have heard of this guy.

15-20 trillion records. When does common sense kick in? There is no way that we have close to enough people to wade through that stuff, not even if we took every single federal employee and tasked them with checking everything.

128 wrenchwench  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 2:24:30pm

re: #121 Charles Johnson

Whoever leaked those NSA docs is going to be in seriously hot water.

abcnews.go.com

Prosecuted victim, then. Or prosecuted perpetrator.

129 abolitionist  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 2:25:27pm

re: #127 Sionainn

15-20 trillion records. When does common sense kick in? There is no way that we have close to enough people to wade through that stuff, not even if we took every single federal employee and tasked them with checking everything.

Software doesn’t get tired. Except for the bitrot thing.

130 jaunte  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 2:25:50pm

USA Today: 5/11/2006

NSA has massive database of Americans’ phone calls

“…The government is collecting “external” data on domestic phone calls but is not intercepting “internals,” a term for the actual content of the communication, according to a U.S. intelligence official familiar with the program. This kind of data collection from phone companies is not uncommon; it’s been done before, though never on this large a scale, the official said. The data are used for “social network analysis,” the official said, meaning to study how terrorist networks contact each other and how they are tied together.”

131 Sionainn  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 2:26:18pm

re: #129 abolitionist

Software doesn’t get tired. Except for the bitrot thing.

Okay, so say software is doing something with all those records. What exactly is that telling anyone about all of us?

132 Ming  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 2:26:47pm

Very nice article by Josh Constine. I was struck by how he says, “Previously I accused Page, Zuckerberg, and other tech executives and companies of trying to hide the scope of their cooperation with the NSA. Their carefully worded denials of offering direct access or back doors to their data seemed to minimize how they were involved with the NSA. I still think they should be more specific on how requests are handled, and could have been despite FISA restrictions on what they could say. However, after speaking with sources, I’ve come to believe…”

This is something I wish I saw more often: a journalist reports the situation as best they can, draws conclusions when appropriate, doesn’t push an ideological agenda, but simply tries to (1) get at the truth, and (2) give a reasonable analysis when they can. This is JOURNALISM, and it’s a pleasure to read it and actually learn something.

Very much the opposite of the sensationalist crap we initially got from the Washington Post and you-know-who.

133 A Mom Anon  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 2:26:52pm

re: #119 wrenchwench

OFFS. I’m a pretty far left person and this is just freaking embarrassing. Honest to god, there are times when the far right and left have way more in common than they think they do. They ought to all just join the damned tea party and be done with it. Throw Code Pink and some of the idiot anarchists in there too. All of them are why we can’t have nice things.

Jackasses.

134 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 2:27:38pm

re: #125 wrenchwench

It’s not supposed to make sense, really. I thought you were younger.

Ah, that’s ok. I grew out a full beard this last spring and now it’s rather humorous to look in a mirror and see a grey goatee surrounded by brown. But it does show my years more than when I’m clean shaven & I ponder, sometimes, which I prefer.

135 Gus  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 2:29:25pm

re: #133 A Mom Anon

OFFS. I’m a pretty far left person and this is just freaking embarrassing. Honest to god, there are times when the far right and left have way more in common than they think they do. They ought to all just join the damned tea party and be done with it. Throw Code Pink and some of the idiot anarchists in there too. All of them are why we can’t have nice things.

Jackasses.

The Circle of Derp

136 krypto  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 2:30:15pm

re: #127 Sionainn

But I thought the purpose wasn’t to go snooping through all of that, but just to have the raw data stored so that the parts of it that are appropriate to look through in connection with some specific criminal issue exist.

137 wrenchwench  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 2:31:34pm

re: #133 A Mom Anon

OFFS. I’m a pretty far left person and this is just freaking embarrassing. Honest to god, there are times when the far right and left have way more in common than they think they do. They ought to all just join the damned tea party and be done with it. Throw Code Pink and some of the idiot anarchists in there too. All of them are why we can’t have nice things.

Jackasses.

The fringes meet around back by the trash cans. Best to not have them all in one party. Keep ‘em all separated by fine but crucial nuances of ideology.

138 Mattand  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 2:31:39pm

re: #3 Charles Johnson

This really is a massive fail. I wonder if any of the Sunday shows who’ve invited Greenwald on will ask him about the fact that his entire “scoop” has collapsed to nothing?

You’re funny.

139 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 2:32:02pm

Santa Monica shooting suspect, possible motive identified, officials say

The gunman accused of killing four people in a Santa Monica shooting rampage Friday was apparently angry over his parents’ divorce and had some mental health issues in the past, a law enforcement source told The Times.

The suspect was identified by five law enforcement sources in Washington and Los Angeles as John Zawahri, in his 20s.

Other sources with knowledge of the investigation said detectives believe the shooting was sparked by a family dispute of some kind but emphasized that the investigation was still in its early stages.

The suspect’s past mental health issues occurred when he was juvenile, the law enforcement source said, but no further details were offered.

The sources all spoke on the condition of anonymity because the case was ongoing.

These sources said the alleged gunman’s first victims were his father and brother, whose bodies were found in a burning home.

…Jerry Cunningham-Rathner had just watched her son walk out the front door of her home a few minutes earlier when she heard the shots. She rushed outside, fearing he had been hit.

Instead, looking across the street, she saw a house engulfed in flames. A man standing in front of the house was dressed all in black, with an ammunition belt around his waist and a large rifle in his hands, she said.

“He looked like a SWAT officer,” she said.

Firefighters later found the bodies of two men inside the house. Police sources said the men were Samir Zawahri, 55, the owner of the house and the father of the alleged gunman, and one of his adult sons.

You have to wonder what makes a person suddenly snap and kill their family?

140 Sionainn  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 2:32:08pm

re: #136 krypto

But I thought the purpose wasn’t to go snooping through all of that, but just to have the raw data stored so that the parts of it that are appropriate to look through in connection with some specific criminal issue exist.

*shrug* You got me. I have no clue. It just strikes me as silly all the people who claim the government is watching everything we do. It’s not even rational.

141 Gus  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 2:35:08pm

Guy Fawkes masks in profile pics people remind me a bit of people with the Eagle and the American flag pics.

142 krypto  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 2:36:19pm

re: #140 Sionainn

I leave all my email forever on my computer. If the police ever were investigating me for something (which I can’t remotely see happening in the first place) they’d get their hands on all my boring correspondence on my computer anyway.

The idea that the government has been saving, not even that, but just records of who called who, doesn’t really bother me at all. Frankly, given the need to track down people who just want to kill and maim Americans, it sounds like a very reasonable thing for them to be doing.

143 Gus  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 2:37:40pm

PATRIOT ACT MIGHT AFFECT ME! ZOMG! INTERNMENT CAMPS FOR WHITE PEOPLE! OMG! OMG! ZOMG! OBAMA!

//

144 jaunte  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 2:38:26pm

re: #140 Sionainn

It just strikes me as silly all the people who claim the government is watching everything we do. It’s not even rational.

“Dogs flew spaceships! The Aztecs invented the vacation! Our forefathers took drugs! Your brain is not the boss! Yes! That’s right! Everything you know is wrong!”

145 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 2:38:36pm

re: #131 Sionainn

Okay, so say software is doing something with all those records. What exactly is that telling anyone about all of us?

From what we know right now - and there could be plenty we don’t know - the NSA isn’t really doing anything besides storing that information. In order to actually carry out any analysis, they have to go through legal channels and demonstrate a need to access the data for that purpose.

146 Political Atheist  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 2:43:02pm

re: #145 Charles Johnson

This might be just the moment to remember our government will be far more restrained than some others. And a lot of this traffic is global. What stops any major power from doing exactly the same just by recording all the traffic they can and doing far worse with it? That is a totalitarians wet dream fulfilled. There is a lot of unguarded cable underwater.

147 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 2:44:06pm

DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE
WASHINGTON, DC 20511

June 8, 2013

DNI Statement on the Collection of Intelligence Pursuant to Section 702 of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act

Over the last week we have seen reckless disclosures of intelligence community measures used to keep Americans safe. In a rush to publish, media outlets have not given the full context-including the extent to which these programs are overseen by all three branches of government-to these effective tools.

In particular, the surveillance activities published in The Guardian and The Washington Post are lawful and conducted under authorities widely known and discussed, and fully debated and authorized by Congress. Their purpose is to obtain foreign intelligence information, including information necessary to thwart terrorist and cyber attacks against the United States and its allies.

Our ability to discuss these activities is limited by our need to protect intelligence sources and methods. Disclosing information about the specific methods the government uses to collect communications can obviously give our enemies a “playbook” of how to avoid detection. Nonetheless, Section 702 has proven vital to keeping the nation and our allies safe. It continues to be one of our most important tools for the protection of the nation’s security.

However, there are significant misimpressions that have resulted from the recent articles. Not all the inaccuracies can be corrected without further revealing classified information. I have, however, declassified for release the attached details about the recent unauthorized disclosures in hope that it will help dispel some of the myths and add necessary context to what has been published.

James R. Clapper, Director of National Intelligence

148 A Mom Anon  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 2:46:35pm

re: #139 NJDhockeyfan

In cases like this(from what we know so far)this wasn’t sudden. The guy had mental health issues when he was younger. Throw in a divorce and perhaps resulting fighting and bickering, and then you end up with someone who plans to end the whole mess because they see no other alternatives.

There is still tremendous stigma attached to mental illnesses of all sorts. The right treatment is expensive and in some cases difficult to find. We also lack the sheer numbers of practitioners and professionals needed to handle this problem properly. And to be honest, we simply do not know enough about the human brain to help a lot of people. I wish these incidents would make people understand and rethink what community means too, and embrace more of the people who seem odd or weird, isolation doesn’t help mental illness go away either.

149 AntonSirius  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 2:50:22pm

re: #78 Charles Johnson

Oh look, GG has another sock puppet defending him.

What a tiny, insecure person he is.

150 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 2:52:25pm

re: #148 A Mom Anon

In cases like this(from what we know so far)this wasn’t sudden. The guy had mental health issues when he was younger. Throw in a divorce and perhaps resulting fighting and bickering, and then you end up with someone who plans to end the whole mess because they see no other alternatives.

There is still tremendous stigma attached to mental illnesses of all sorts. The right treatment is expensive and in some cases difficult to find. We also lack the sheer numbers of practitioners and professionals needed to handle this problem properly. And to be honest, we simply do not know enough about the human brain to help a lot of people. I wish these incidents would make people understand and rethink what community means too, and embrace more of the people who seem odd or weird, isolation doesn’t help mental illness go away either.

It seems like this is happening more and more. I don’t remember reading or hearing about similar stories 30 years ago. Were there less killings like that or was the news just not reporting on them as much?

151 Gus  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 2:52:28pm

Oh brother.

152 AntonSirius  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 2:54:52pm

re: #105 A Mom Anon

Asshole is the nicest thing I can think of to say. What is it with men and comparing bullshit with rape or using it to insult someone, or wishing in on anyone?

He’s loving all this shit too, he can be a victim, get attention and be on TV, maybe sell some more books. If I had his address, I’d send my copy of his first book back to him. I read his stuff back when he was a little old blogger on blogspot, about the time I began reading the early firedoglake blog. It’s like all those folks went off the rails at about the same time and they’ve only got worse since then.

Would that be that book where he supports Bush’s Iraq policy in the foreword… a position he now vehemently denies he ever held?

153 abolitionist  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 2:56:32pm

re: #131 Sionainn

Okay, so say software is doing something with all those records. What exactly is that telling anyone about all of us?

re: #145 Charles Johnson

From what we know right now - and there could be plenty we don’t know - the NSA isn’t really doing anything besides storing that information. In order to actually carry out any analysis, they have to go through legal channels and demonstrate a need to access the data for that purpose.

It seems to me that the rational for massive data-collection and archiving is going to be something like, “Yeah, for many years, we collected all the data we could easily find on about 97 percent of the people in the whole frikin world, but it’s only illegal if we actually search our database targeting specific US citizens in ways that are overly broad and without proper authorization.”

I suspect Petreus and Broadwell would not find that line of argument very compelling.

154 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 2:57:12pm

re: #151 Gus

Oh brother.

If he puts that recording online lots of people are going to go nuts.

155 Gus  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 2:58:10pm

re: #154 NJDhockeyfan

If he puts that recording online lots of people are going to go nuts.

Yes. He’s in flight now. Says he’ll put it up this evening.

156 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 2:59:26pm

re: #155 Gus

Yes. He’s in flight now. Says he’ll put it up this evening.

Get the popcorn.

157 Gus  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 2:59:49pm

re: #156 NJDhockeyfan

Get the popcorn.

Tin foil. Check.

158 AntonSirius  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 3:01:11pm

re: #151 Gus

Oh brother.

And he knows that they are “US intel officers” and not four bros being douches how, exactly?

159 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 3:01:40pm
160 Gus  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 3:01:54pm

re: #158 AntonSirius

And he knows that they are “US intel officers” and not four bros being douches how, exactly?

My thoughts as well.

161 Targetpractice  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 3:01:57pm

re: #158 AntonSirius

And he knows that they are “US intel officers” and not four bros being douches how, exactly?

Big signs above their heads, which they must have at all times as required by law.

///

162 jaunte  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 3:01:57pm

re: #158 AntonSirius

Official “US intel official” nametags.

163 prairiefire  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 3:02:04pm

I am enjoying the debate! Bring it on, we need to shine a civil liberties lantern on this situation and make sure it’s still necessary PLUS going well. It’s a huge amount of power to hand over to one branch.

164 wrenchwench  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 3:02:43pm

re: #151 Gus

Oh brother.


I’m in a Greyhound Bus station listening to 4 officials of some sort saying loudly that they’re going to sit Greenwald on the bubbler, then stuff him in the trash can. One of them looks sort of familiar.

165 Gus  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 3:03:00pm

re: #162 jaunte

Official “US intel official” nametags.

TSA intelligence officers. They didn’t have nametags.

166 jaunte  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 3:03:03pm

re: #163 prairiefire

The congressional excuse at this point seems to be “we didn’t attend the briefing.”

167 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 3:03:26pm

re: #158 AntonSirius

And he knows that they are “US intel officers” and not four bros being douches how, exactly?

“Isn’t that Steve Clemons sitting over there?”

“Yes, I think it is.”

“Let’s fuck with his head.”

“OK!”

168 Targetpractice  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 3:05:22pm

Yes, the NSA is all-powerful and all-knowing, able to smite people at will without notice or care…but can never seem to catch the leakers before they managed to get the press.

Things that make you go “Hmmm….”

169 A Mom Anon  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 3:06:01pm

re: #150 NJDhockeyfan

Well, we have many more people in the country now than a few decades ago. We also do hear about more of this because of the internet and improvements in communication. There’s also way more high powered weaponry available than ever before. And for being such a well off country, there are alot of very unhappy people among us. Way more than there should be really.

Now, this is just my theory and I’m no expert by a long shot, so YMMV:

I do think we’re meaner as a culture now than we were even a couple of decades ago. Hell, we don’t even build new neighborhoods with sidewalks anymore. People don’t know their neighbors, families are divided up because of all sorts of things, from religion, to politics, to divorce, to domestic violence. More and more young people find themselves either the bully or the bullied. Something is wrong and IMHO it has much to do with losing touch and not being part of something productive that’s larger than ourselves. Now, this is not the reason for mental illness, that is an organic thing in the brain. But, there are many people we could be reaching but aren’t because there are some really fucked up notions about what’s normal and perfect and beautiful and acceptable in this culture and that does drive a lot of anger and depression. We’re also not doing well as a nation overall with coping with all this and we’re sure as hell not equipping our young people to handle things either.

Just my few cents, I’m missing a lot, but there’s much we’re missing and these incidents are clues we’re ignoring. We’re not devoting enough resources to any of this mess, and this won’t slow down til we do and stop fighting to arm people to the teeth with stuff that only the military used to have access to.

170 AntonSirius  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 3:06:08pm

re: #155 Gus

Yes. He’s in flight now. Says he’ll put it up this evening.

Poor Steve. That plane will never reach its destination. #ObamaDeathList

171 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 3:06:19pm
172 Gus  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 3:07:52pm

re: #171 NJDhockeyfan

Smells like a fish already.

173 Targetpractice  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 3:09:21pm

re: #171 NJDhockeyfan

“These are pictures of the subjects. Yes, they’re absolute shit and make a definitive ID hard if not impossible to attain, but it’s all the proof I need for my allegations!”

174 Gus  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 3:09:32pm

Never underestimate the ability of a journalist to make shit up just for the attention and cash.

175 jaunte  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 3:09:54pm

re: #168 Targetpractice

Yes, the NSA is all-powerful and all-knowing, able to smite people at will without notice or care…but can never seem to catch the leakers before they managed to get the press.”

Plus they get gabby about their planned hits in airport lounges, and let strangers take their pictures while plotting.

176 A Mom Anon  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 3:10:01pm

re: #152 AntonSirius

I honestly cannot remember what was in the forward, I read it right after it was published and never picked it up again. It’s in a box in the garage with a bunch of other books I culled from my library. I think he had some valid points in the beginning of his writing career about watching out for civil liberties and the like and keeping an eye on the courts and what was happening in that realm, but he went off the rails once he figured out he could get more attention by accusing the government of being evil and untrustworthy.

177 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 3:11:23pm

re: #169 A Mom Anon

I think talking to other people face to face is a big thing. That doesn’t happen as much anymore. I see people in their cars, walking down the street, in the mall, etc… texting. That’s all they do it text. I’ve been in restaurants where the entire family sitting down for a meal are all looking down at their cell phones texting. It’s a damn shame. I seriously think this somehow affects people.

178 Targetpractice  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 3:12:23pm

Swear to God, people really do seem to think that movies like Enemy of the State and the Bourne films are real life. That the NSA is sniffing through their mail, digging through their garbage, and listening in on all their calls because they said something mean about the government.

Get over yourselves!

179 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 3:12:33pm

re: #172 Gus

Smells like a fish already.

Cue the black helicopters.

180 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 3:13:26pm

re: #178 Targetpractice

Swear to God, people really do seem to think that movies like Enemy of the State and the Bourne films are real life. That the NSA is sniffing through their mail, digging through their garbage, and listening in on all their calls because they said something mean about the government.

Get over yourselves!

I’ve met people who will not get TV or internet. They want to ‘stay off the grid, man’.

181 Targetpractice  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 3:20:27pm

re: #180 NJDhockeyfan

I’ve met people who will not get TV or internet. They want to ‘stay off the grid, man’.

I hate to say it, but there is no privacy in the 21st century. We’re leaving parts of ourselves everywhere we go. People used to joke that if you wanted to avoid being tracked, you could camp out in the woods. But with modern satellites, IR cameras, and other digital tracking methods, even the bearded hermit living out in the woods could be found if the government really wanted to track his ass down.

182 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 3:23:23pm

re: #3 Charles Johnson

Glenn Greenwald’s “direct access” Powerpoint slides may have meant nothing more than these special locked mailboxes. But Greenwald engineered a giant anti-Obama freakout based on the false claim that the NSA had direct access to everything these tech companies had on their servers.

This really is a massive fail. I wonder if any of the Sunday shows who’ve invited Greenwald on will ask him about the fact that his entire “scoop” has collapsed to nothing?

Only if they think the resulting freakout will amuse their audience. Meanwhile Glen Greenwald’s powerpoint show seems to be the equivalent of one of Glenn Beck’s blackboards.

183 Eclectic Cyborg  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 3:23:48pm

Recently spotted on my Facebook feed:

OMG! Obama IS out of control! He’s got NASA spying on everything we do!!

(This IS how it was posted, I did not make any typos)

184 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 3:25:27pm

re: #183 Eclectic Cyborg

Recently spotted on my Facebook feed:

(This IS how it was posted, I did not make any typos)

People like that have become impossible to parody. No matter how crazy the fake dialog for the parody is written, the same thing is being said for real on the Internet.

185 jaunte  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 3:28:05pm

re: #174 Gus

Never underestimate the ability of a journalist to make shit up just for the attention and cash.

Guardian Humblebrags.

186 AlexRogan  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 3:29:24pm

re: #96 NJDhockeyfan

If Michael Moore approves of Greenwald and this “story”, it’s safe to say that this a big moonbat nothing burger.

187 wrenchwench  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 3:30:19pm

Interesting bits about William Binney at Wikipedia.

Binney was a Russia specialist and worked in the operations side of intelligence, starting as an analyst and ending as Technical Director then becoming a geopolitical world Technical Director.

(Interesting that he goes on Russia Today with his accusations….)

[…]

Whistleblowing

In September 2002, he, along with J. Kirke Wiebe and Edward Loomis, asked the U.S. Defense Department to investigate the NSA for allegedly wasting “millions and millions of dollars” on Trailblazer, a system intended to analyze data carried on communications networks such as the Internet. Binney had been one of the inventors of an alternative system, ThinThread, which was shelved when Trailblazer was chosen instead. Binney has also been publicly critical of the NSA for spying on U.S. citizens, saying of its expanded surveillance after the September 11th, 2001 attacks that “it’s better than anything that the KGB, the Stasi, or the Gestapo and SS ever had”[6] as well as noting Trailblazer’s ineffectiveness and unjustified high cost compared to the more effective yet far less intrusive and less expensive ThinThread.[7] He was furious that the NSA hadn’t uncovered the 9/11 plot and stated that intercepts it had collected but not analyzed likely would have garnered timely attention with his leaner more focused system.[5]

After he left the NSA in 2001, Binney was one of several people investigated as part of an inquiry into the 2005 New York Times exposé[8][9] on the agency’s warrantless eavesdropping program. Binney was cleared of wrongdoing after three interviews with FBI agents beginning in March 2007, but one morning in July 2007, a dozen agents armed with rifles appeared at his house, with one of them entering the bathroom where Binney was toweling off after a shower, pointing a gun at him. In that raid, the FBI confiscated a desktop computer, disks and personal and business records. The NSA revoked his security clearance, forcing him to close a business he ran with former colleagues, which cost him a reported $300,000 annual income. In 2012, Binney and his co-plaintiffs went to federal court to get the items back. Binney spent more than $7,000 on legal fees.[10]

During interviews on Democracy Now! in April and May 2012[11] with elaboration in July 2012 at 2600’s hacker conference HOPE[2] and a couple weeks later at DEF CON[12], Binney reported that he estimates that the NSA (particularly through the Stellar Wind project[13]) had intercepted 20 trillion communications “transactions” of Americans (such as phone calls, emails, and other forms of data but not including financial data). This includes most of the emails of US citizens. Binney discloses in sworn affidavit for Jewel v. NSA[14] that the agency was “purposefully violating the Constitution”.[4]

He may not be Greenwald’s leaker, but he seems to have a similar agenda.

188 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 3:31:23pm

re: #185 jaunte

Guardian Humblebrags.

Keep the readers coming and the subscriptions and advertising dollars flowing.

There’s a sucker born every minute.

189 Gus  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 3:35:55pm

re: #187 wrenchwench

Interesting bits about William Binney at Wikipedia.

(Interesting that he goes on Russia Today with his accusations….)

[…]

He may not be Greenwald’s leaker, but he seems to have a similar agenda.

Yes, I found that interesting as well. Call me old fashioned but I still hate what I see as basic anti-American bullshit going on around those parts.

190 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 3:37:22pm
191 A Mom Anon  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 3:38:27pm

re: #177 NJDhockeyfan

I know, our technological advances seem to have outstripped our wisdom to use them for our betterment and to know when to leave it alone. Hell, I’m guilty of it and I’m aware of the detrimental effect it can have. I do have a rule for our little family though. No texting while we’re talking to each other or hanging out together. My husband used to be awful about this, he would be texting constantly, and it was getting to the point where he never heard a thing I said to him. I finally just stopped telling him stuff that he ought to know, like the kid having trouble in school or the light fixture in the bathroom was shorting out, and then I’d pay a repairman or tell the school to call him. And then when he was all surprised, I told him why. Problem solved, mostly anyway. I think that is a part of the bigger picture.

And heaven knows this country has never been a haven of perfection, ever, but we have grown meaner and less trusting of one another. That leads to isolation and anger and unresolved, those things never go well.

192 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 3:39:47pm

re: #190 NJDhockeyfan

Post that on the next page as well, please.

193 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 3:41:01pm

re: #192 Dark_Falcon

Post that on the next page as well, please.

Will do!

194 abolitionist  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 3:42:49pm

re: #180 NJDhockeyfan

I’ve met people who will not get TV or internet. They want to ‘stay off the grid, man’.

OffTheGrid Excerpts:

A paper-based system for encrypting domain names into secure passwords.
…This “Off The Grid” technology is the only known system to provide secure encryption using nothing but a specially designed piece of paper.
…Even though we can no longer live “off
the grid” … at least our passwords can!

Might be of interest to some here, even if you are already using a password manager, and continue to.

195 AlexRogan  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 3:46:13pm

re: #181 Targetpractice

I hate to say it, but there is no privacy in the 21st century. We’re leaving parts of ourselves everywhere we go. People used to joke that if you wanted to avoid being tracked, you could camp out in the woods. But with modern satellites, IR cameras, and other digital tracking methods, even the bearded hermit living out in the woods could be found if the government really wanted to track his ass down.

I would say that worked for grabbing Ted “Unabomber” Kaczynski, the FBI nabbed him the old-fashioned way AFAIK.

However, that was before the Internet got huge…

196 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 3:47:06pm

re: #194 abolitionist

OffTheGrid Excerpts:

Might be of interest to some here, even if you are already using a password manager, and continue to.

This is what drives them nuts.

How to get targeted ads on your TV? Try a camera in your set-top box.

Verizon has filed a patent for a DVR that can watch and listen to the goings-on in your living room. In the application, the company proposes to use the technology to serve targeted ads appropriate to whatever you’re doing in the, uh, privacy of your own home—fighting, cuddling, or hanging out with your cats.

Verizon is far from the first company to think of this unassailably creepy use for a set-top box. Comcast patented similar monitoring technology in 2008 for recommending content based on people it recognizes in the room; Google proposed yet another patent for Google TV that would use audio and video recorders to figure out how many people in a room are watching the current broadcast.

Verizon filed for the application in May 2011, and it was just published last week. (By law, all patent applications are published after 18 months.) In the document, which was first noticed by FierceCable, Verizon gives two examples of the context-sensitive DVR’s use in a couple’s living room: sounds of arguing prompt ads for marriage counseling, while sounds of “cuddling” prompts ads for contraceptives. Charming.

Generally, these uses of cameras and mics frighten the living daylights out of customers (understandably so), so all of these patents have yet to be put to use. Still, the wheels continue to turn in content providers’ heads about how to get eyes and ears in your living room, even as the creepiness factor persists.

197 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 3:52:08pm

re: #196 NJDhockeyfan

This is what drives them nuts.

How to get targeted ads on your TV? Try a camera in your set-top box.

Yikes.

198 abolitionist  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 3:53:55pm

re: #196 NJDhockeyfan

This is what drives them nuts.

How to get targeted ads on your TV? Try a camera in your set-top box.

Topic for SecurityNow episode #408 scheduled for next Wed happens to be the surveillance state.

199 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 3:59:31pm

re: #197 Dark_Falcon

Yikes.

Intel wants to do it too.

Intel’s Cable Box Will Have A Camera That Tracks You As You Watch TV

We should reserve judgement until we see the actual product, but the initial description of Intel’s plan for a cable box sounds very creepy.

It’s planning to roll out a cable box with a camera that looks at who is watch TV to deliver a more personalized experience.

At the D:Dive Into Media conference, Intel Media leader Erik Huggers described Intel’s plan to disrupt the traditional cable business with a new Internet-based pay TV service. Its main selling points: A better interface, and the option to choose different, or smaller bundles of cable shows.

All of that sounds interesting, but we’re somewhat hung up on the camera that will watch us watch TV. Huggers tried to make it sound like it wasn’t weird, saying you can close the camera’s eye if you want and it won’t watch you.

Why even have it? Because Huggers thinks it will be able to offer a better, more personalized experience if it knows who is on the couch. Presumably, an adult would get different TV content than a kid if the camera could see who was watching.

Technology has gotten increasingly intrusive, so maybe people are ready for something like this, but we highly skeptical it’s going to work.

200 jfrentzen  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 5:26:10pm

I’m not about to trust the lukewarm promises of tech companies to safeguard us against the NSA and the U.S. government. Seems like LGF has gone on a “let’s trust Big Brother” trip. Let us quote Carlin, “I have certain rules I live by. My first rule: I don’t believe anything the government tells me. Nothing. Zero. Nope.”

201 wrenchwench  Sat, Jun 8, 2013 5:34:44pm

re: #200 jfrentzen

Greetings, hatchling.

Seems like LGF has gone on a “let’s trust Big Brother” trip.

There is no consensus.


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