France, Spain and Portugal: We Didn’t Deny Landing Rights to Morales’ Plane

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When news broke yesterday that Bolivian president Evo Morales’s private jet had been re-routed to Austria on suspicion that Edward Snowden was aboard, Glenn Greenwald immediately jumped to the conclusion that France, Spain and Portugal had been pressured into denying the plane airspace rights by that evil old United States:

Wikileaks tweeted a series of angry rants about “imperial power” etc., culminating in this hyperbolic statement:

At Mother Jones, Kevin Drum titled his rant, “Obama Finally Shows His Chicago Thug Side for Real,” then changed the title (but didn’t back away from the claim) when people pointed out that he was endorsing a right wing racist dog whistle meme.

Glenn Greenwald, however, enjoyed Drum’s post with its original title:

Well, today: The Tale of the Re-Routed Bolivian President’s Plane Is Falling Apart.

Today, France and Spain disputed Choquehuanca’s claims, as reported by the AP.

Two officials with the French Foreign Ministry said Wednesday that Morales’ plane had authorization to fly over France. They would not comment on why Bolivian officials said otherwise. They spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to be publicly named according to ministry policy.

An official with Spain’s foreign ministry said Wednesday that the country on Tuesday authorized Morales’ plane to fly within its airspace and to make a refueling stop. The official said Bolivia asked again this morning for permission and got it.

The refueling stop was apparently in the Canary Islands, a stop which occurred Wednesday afternoon. The Guardian offers more clarity.

Spain, where Morales’s plane is due to refuel during its current journey, denied Bolivian claims that it only agreed to allow the plane to refuel in the Canaries if Bolivian authorities allowed it to be inspected. The foreign minister said this was not the case. The prime minister, Mariano Rajoy, said authorisation was given for the refuelling stop but that it was important that Snowden was not aboard.

The AP’s original article, which suggests that the plane was re-routed to Austria, quotes Choquehuanca as saying that the refusal of France and Portugal to allow Morales to fly overhead “put the president’s life at risk.” An audio recording between the plane’s pilots and air traffic control in Austria might explain why, as the Guardian pointed out.

Control tower: Do you need any assistance?

Pilot: Not at this moment. We need to land because we cannot get a correct indication of the fuel indication so as a precaution we need to land.

Why the plane landed in Austria isn’t clear, but it doesn’t seem to have been at the insistence of the Austrians.

UPDATE at 7/3/13 12:56:06 pm

The audio recording:

Also see
Snowden Case: France Denies Blocking Bolivia Plane

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137 comments
1 jaunte  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 12:50:04pm

Waiting for the “this-doesn’t-matter-jitsu.”

2 Gus  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 12:50:36pm

re: #1 jaunte

Waiting for the “this-doesn’t-matter-jitsu.”

Fake but accurate.

3 Backwoods_Sleuth  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 12:51:20pm
Control tower: Do you need any assistance?

Pilot: Not at this moment. We need to land because we cannot get a correct indication of the fuel indication so as a precaution we need to land.

Why the plane landed in Austria isn’t clear…

I think the pilot’s words are very clear as to why the plane landed in Austria.

idiots…

4 b.d.  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 12:52:04pm
“A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.” - Mark Twain
5 Kragar  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 12:52:46pm

This whole accuracy thing keeps going over Greenwald’s head, doesn’t it?

6 lawhawk  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 12:52:47pm

Why did plane land where it did? Because pilots noticed a fuel indicator wasn’t working properly. That’s why they landed in Austria.

Oh, and the airport they took off from? Apparently 27 miles from the one where Snowden’s shut in. So, unless someone got him to the other airport unnoticed, Snowden never left with Morales.

A whole nothingburger. Brilliant.

7 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 12:52:48pm

posted this in one of the more self righteous diaries on the wreck list at Dkos and happily tweeted the story to Drum and Greenwald. I guess they all think that facts should never get in the way of a good story.

8 abolitionist  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 12:53:06pm

So there were indications that the fuel indicator wasn’t properly indicating? Sounds serious.

9 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 12:54:21pm

re: #8 abolitionist

So there were indications that the fuel indicator wasn’t properly indicating? Sounds serious.

there are, however it had nothing to do with flyover rights.

10 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 12:54:34pm

re: #8 abolitionist

So there were indications that the fuel indicator wasn’t properly indicating? Sounds serious.

The CIA did it!
//

11 Kragar  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 12:54:38pm

re: #8 abolitionist

So there were indications that the fuel indicator wasn’t properly indicating? Sounds serious.

Obviously a case of sabotage by the CIA…

12 Big Steve  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 12:55:04pm

BTW for those following the abortion debate in Texas…..the links below give all Texas House and Senate members and most have email addresses if you care to write to them.

house.state.tx.us

senate.state.tx.us

13 Backwoods_Sleuth  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 12:55:13pm

I actually read something first thing this morning (about 9-10 hours ago) about the fuel indicator not working as the reason for diverting to Austria.
Just shook my head all day as the conspiracy outrage continued unabated.

14 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 12:55:55pm

It’s “Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego” for adults.

15 Kragar  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 12:56:20pm

Someone must have brought another truck load of fireworks to Tahrir, because another big volley just started going off.

16 Minor_L  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 12:56:47pm

re: #5 Kragar

CPAC should give him the “Accuracy in Media Award.”

17 ProTARDISLiberal  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 12:57:16pm

re: #15 Kragar

So happy for them!

18 Backwoods_Sleuth  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 12:59:19pm

The same piece I read this morning said Morales and entourage were relaxing in an airport lounge while a mechanic checked the problem.
Then, wingnuts went off about how the plane was being held and not allowed to leave.
My best guess (coming from an aviation family) is that, because of the unexpected amount of time resulting from the mechanical problem, the flight crew needed sufficient “down time” before taking off again.

19 Backwoods_Sleuth  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 12:59:43pm

re: #15 Kragar

Someone must have brought another truck load of fireworks to Tahrir, because another big volley just started going off.

Romney campaign delivers AGAIN!
//

20 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:00:04pm

The al jazeera live coverage is fascinating. Very pro Morsi.

21 Kragar  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:00:51pm

re: #19 Backwoods_Sleuth

Romney campaign delivers AGAIN!
//

I’ve been watching for close to 45 minutes and they’ve had a pretty steady stream going up the whole time.

22 wrenchwench  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:00:52pm

re: #18 Backwoods_Sleuth

My best guess (coming from an aviation family) is that, because of the unexpected amount of time resulting from the mechanical problem, the flight crew needed sufficient “down time” before taking off again.

They were being kept down by The Man!

23 b.d.  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:01:31pm

Me thinks there was some punking going on.

24 Backwoods_Sleuth  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:03:24pm

re: #21 Kragar

I’ve been watching for close to 45 minutes and they’ve had a pretty steady stream going up the whole time.

me too watching…it’s pretty amazing.
I’m also impressed at how well the crowd is at aiming the green lasers at the bottom of the helicopters so as to not blind the pilot (unless the pilot is wearing some sort of super-duper anti-laser eyewear).

25 Backwoods_Sleuth  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:04:09pm

re: #23 b.d.

Me thinks there was some punking going on.

more like a lot of full-of-their-own-importance BS going on.

26 HAL2010  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:04:19pm

Constant updates on Egypt

littlegreenfootballs.com

27 ProTARDISLiberal  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:04:55pm

It looks like a rave over there in Tahrir Square.

You know what? Why not follow the biggest protest in human history with the largest rave in human history?

28 b.d.  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:05:08pm

Where did the story that the airspace was closed come from, a tweet?

29 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:05:10pm

Not sad to see the Muslim Brotherhood getting tossed out. Not happy to see a military coup, either. No good options.

30 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:05:30pm

re: #28 b.d.

Where did the story that the airspace was closed come from, a tweet?

It was originally from the AP.

31 Justanotherhuman  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:06:04pm

More left/right nutjob convergence? Does anyone think before they tweet or write anymore? Or is it just these particular white guys?

32 Backwoods_Sleuth  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:06:28pm

re: #28 b.d.

Where did the story that the airspace was closed come from, a tweet?

it’s all tweets now…

33 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:10:51pm

Lot of talk about civil war from Morsi supporters. The Al Jaz rally just played a song about taking up arms and martyrdom. I still kind of doubt full blown civil war or widespread violence.

34 Kragar  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:12:33pm

re: #33 Killgore Trout

Lot of talk about civil war from Morsi supporters. The Al Jaz rally just played a song about taking up arms and martyrdom. I still kind of doubt full blown civil war or widespread violence.

Morsi supporters wouldn’t last long against Army troops

35 b.d.  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:14:29pm

LOL, Rec. List at Daily Kos

If Snowden Is a Criminal, Then So Too Are the Founding Fathers

Link

36 Justanotherhuman  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:14:31pm

re: #30 Charles Johnson

Charles, which AP story? This one, note date, or an earlier one? The tweets from Assange and Greenwald are dated 7/2 (and I’m assuming on Greenwich time).

By PHILIPP-MORITZ JENNE and CARLOS VALDEZ Associated Press
VIENNA July 3, 2013 (AP)

abcnews.go.com

So who started the rumor?

37 ProTARDISLiberal  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:14:57pm

re: #34 Kragar

Or the massive number of Anti-Morsi Supporters. They must number in into the hundreds of thousands at least.

38 Ian G.  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:15:35pm

re: #29 Charles Johnson

Not sad to see the Muslim Brotherhood getting tossed out. Not happy to see a military coup, either. No good options.

The Middle East remains FUBAR, film at 11.

39 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:15:41pm

re: #34 Kragar

Morsi supporters wouldn’t last long against Army troops

They wouldn’t last long and I don’t think there’s enough willpower or motivation. Egypt has problems but most Egyptians are well off (relatively speaking), they have jobs, food, TV, etc. A few nuts may choose to fight but most other people have better stuff to do.

40 Justanotherhuman  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:15:49pm

Well, Greenwich time for Assange anyway; don’t know what time zone GG is in right now.

41 Lidane  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:16:44pm
42 darthstar  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:17:17pm

BOLIVIAGATE!

I’m really happy to see Greenwald looking like a fool over this story as well.

43 Lidane  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:17:27pm
44 Kragar  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:17:37pm

re: #39 Killgore Trout

They wouldn’t last long and I don’t think there’s enough willpower or motivation. Egypt has problems but most Egyptians are well off (relatively speaking), they have jobs, food, TV, etc. A few nuts may choose to fight but most other people have better stuff to do.

A lot of the martyrdom talk is coming from leadership types in the tradition of “You guys go out there and die for the cause, we’ll be back here.”

45 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:18:00pm

re: #36 Justanotherhuman

The first place I saw it was this tweet - Charlie Kaye of CBS News quoting an AP story that hadn’t actually gone public yet:

46 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:18:08pm

Cognitive biases can make people so laughably credulous. How likely was it that european democracies would unilaterally violate the International Civil Aviation treaty at Obama’s behest? Normally it takes drugs to uncritically believe that kind of bullshit.

47 Gus  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:19:53pm

re: #36 Justanotherhuman

Charles, which AP story? This one, note date, or an earlier one? The tweets from Assange and Greenwald are dated 7/2 (and I’m assuming on Greenwich time).

By PHILIPP-MORITZ JENNE and CARLOS VALDEZ Associated Press
VIENNA July 3, 2013 (AP)

abcnews.go.com

So who started the rumor?

Twitter done it.

48 Ian G.  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:20:15pm

re: #35 b.d.

DailyKos, huh?

Yeah, there really is a lot of left-right convergence. Normally, it’s the right that projects its deranged fantasies onto the founding fathers (hence the whole Tea Party thing). Now it’s the left.

Sometimes, I wish we had just had a nice, slow, amicable drift towards independence from Great Britain, as Canada did. Sure, we’d still have to have various horsefaced royals on our money, but at least we wouldn’t have various misinterpretations and near-deification of the men who led the rebellion against King George.

49 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:20:19pm

re: #46 goddamnedfrank

Cognitive biases can make people so laughably credulous. How likely was it that european democracies would unilaterally violate the International Civil Aviation treaty at Obama’s behest? Normally it takes drugs to uncritically believe that kind of bullshit.

I could believe they all didn’t want the problem landing in their lap, but that’s about it. But it was always kind of weird, yeah.

50 engineer cat  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:20:42pm

re: #46 goddamnedfrank

Cognitive biases can make people so laughably credulous. How likely was it that european democracies would unilaterally violate the International Civil Aviation treaty at Obama’s behest? Normally it takes drugs morons to uncritically believe that kind of bullshit.

fxted

51 engineer cat  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:22:37pm

so, is zimmerman going to denounce the muslim brotherhood from the sheremetyevo airport hotel?

life is so confusing with the internets

52 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:22:55pm
53 AntonSirius  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:23:26pm

re: #20 Killgore Trout

The al jazeera live coverage is fascinating. Very pro Morsi.

[Embedded content]

Anti-coup does not necessarily mean pro-Morsi. It means pro-democracy.

54 engineer cat  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:24:17pm

so egypt has been demorsified?

55 ProTARDISLiberal  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:25:45pm

re: #53 AntonSirius

Morsi in November had a bunch of things passed that trashed the balance of power, and ran roughshod over the minorities and women. There are other processes as well that were not happening.

Democracy is more than elections. Morsi never understood that.

56 wrenchwench  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:26:00pm

re: #4 b.d.

“A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.” - Mark Twain

And that was before Twitter! And Velcro shoes!

57 piratedan  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:26:13pm

re: #45 Charles Johnson

The first place I saw it was this tweet - Charlie Kaye of CBS News quoting an AP story that hadn’t actually gone public yet:

[Embedded content]

I’m sure the AP will issue a correction shortly, pardon me while I hold my breath for it to happen……

58 Backwoods_Sleuth  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:26:53pm

re: #44 Kragar

A lot of the martyrdom talk is coming from leadership types in the tradition of “You guys go out there and die for the cause, we’ll be back here.”

More like “you guys go out there and die for the cause…we’ll hold your beer…”

59 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:27:18pm

re: #57 piratedan

I’m sure the AP will issue a correction shortly, pardon me while I hold my breath for it to happen……

Actually… Snowden Case: France Denies Blocking Bolivia Plane

60 Lidane  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:27:32pm
61 ProTARDISLiberal  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:28:15pm

It has been a good day today.

Youtube Video

62 Lidane  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:28:41pm

Geography is hard, y’all:

63 Justanotherhuman  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:28:43pm

re: #45 Charles Johnson

And the Wikileaks tweet was 8 secs later. Coincidence?

64 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:29:08pm
65 Backwoods_Sleuth  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:29:19pm

re: #45 Charles Johnson

The first place I saw it was this tweet - Charlie Kaye of CBS News quoting an AP story that hadn’t actually gone public yet:

[Embedded content]

and the AP story dated July 3 mentions:

In a midnight press conference, Bolivian Vice President Alvaro Garcia said that not only France and Portugal, but also Italy and Spain were denying the plane permission to fly through their airspace.

Teh twitters win!

66 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:29:45pm

re: #60 Lidane

I’m sure he won’t say it was because a bunch of religious fanatics took political power as a mandate to try to legally run roughshod over other groups in an attempt to disenfranchise them and lock down future political control.
//

67 Kragar  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:29:46pm

re: #53 AntonSirius

Anti-coup does not necessarily mean pro-Morsi. It means pro-democracy.

Morsi should have remembered that when he ran roughshod over the new government and tried to make himself the supreme leader.

68 piratedan  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:30:53pm

re: #59 Charles Johnson

not exactly a correction, it’s just those gosh darn Bolivian politicians that are to blame, “we report, you decide…..”

69 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:31:00pm

Note: all the claims that the plane had been denied airspace rights came from Bolivia.

70 Kragar  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:31:31pm

re: #64 NJDhockeyfan

[Embedded content]

Actually, the Founding Fathers would have had Snowden shot or strung up.

71 piratedan  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:33:03pm

re: #69 Charles Johnson

Note: all the claims that the plane had been denied airspace rights came from Bolivia.

guess they’ve been jealous of all of the international attention the Ecuadorans have been receiving ///

72 Backwoods_Sleuth  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:33:09pm

re: #70 Kragar

Actually, the Founding Fathers would have had Snowden shot or strung up.

or burned at the stake…

73 Kragar  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:34:14pm

Former Egyptian General: Morsi Welcome To Run For Office Again

Former Egyptian General Sameh Seif Elyazal told CNN anchor Christiane Amanpour Wednesday that newly-ousted President Mohamed Morsi would be “most welcome” to run for office in the upcoming presidential election.

“I don’t think there is any law to exile him from that. So he is most welcome to play his role again,” Elyazal said.

Elyazal also said the army does not intend to exile or imprison Morsi.

“He is in a very safe place. There is no intention whatsoever to put him in jail. There is no intention whatsoever to put anybody else in jail, at all,” Elyazal said. “And he is free, I guess he would be free to leave Egypt soon, or to live in Egypt, it depends on him.”

74 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:34:21pm

I think we can compare Snowden to John André

75 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:36:19pm

re: #73 Kragar

Former Egyptian General: Morsi Welcome To Run For Office Again

The campaign trail will be a tough ride.

76 AntonSirius  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:36:59pm

re: #55 ProTARDISLiberal

Morsi in November had a bunch of things passed that trashed the balance of power, and ran roughshod over the minorities and women. There are other processes as well that were not happening.

Democracy is more than elections. Morsi never understood that.

Oh, I know what’s happening over there. But a coup is a failure… there’s no sugar-coating it.

77 AntonSirius  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:37:20pm

re: #72 Backwoods_Sleuth

or burned at the stake…

#HailSatan

78 Kragar  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:38:02pm

re: #76 AntonSirius

Oh, I know what’s happening over there. But a coup is a failure… there’s no sugar-coating it.

The failure occurred months ago.

79 abolitionist  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:38:31pm

re: #73 Kragar

Former Egyptian General: Morsi Welcome To Run For Office Again

That’s welcome news. Sounds like …democracy.

80 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:38:51pm

re: #75 NJDhockeyfan

The campaign trail will be a tough ride.

I think the Islamist parties are still popular but I think Morsi’s going to have a tough time winning another election. Even the Muslim Bros are probably not going to do as well in the next election.

81 b.d.  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:39:10pm

So the Wikilieaks guy told the Bolivian Vice President that Portugal, Spain and France wouldn’t let the plane through and the VP called a press conference?

Is that the timeline I’m seeing?

82 Backwoods_Sleuth  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:39:11pm

oh my, when your bogus outrage fails, double down!

Bolivia files UN complaint over diversion

83 Backwoods_Sleuth  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:40:14pm

re: #75 NJDhockeyfan

The campaign trail will be a tough ride.

he should have given everyone Morsi-phones and other free stuffs…

//

84 AntonSirius  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:41:58pm

re: #78 Kragar

The failure occurred months ago.

The best outcome here is that the military just turfs out Morsi and steps away from power again, in which case it’s back to square one.

85 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:42:18pm

re: #80 Killgore Trout

I think the Islamist parties are still popular but I think Morsi’s going to have a tough time winning another election. Even the Muslim Bros are probably not going to do as well in the next election.

I doubt they will vote for another MB member again.

86 Justanotherhuman  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:43:20pm

re: #82 Backwoods_Sleuth

Who are they taking legal advice from, Greenwald?

87 Kragar  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:45:05pm

Head of Egypt constitutional court to be sworn in as interim head of state on Thursday - sources

CAIRO, July 3 (Reuters) - The head of Egypt’s supreme constitutional court, Adli Mansour, will be sworn in as interim head of state on Thursday after the armed forces overthrew elected President Mohamed Mursi on Wednesday, military and judicial sources said.

88 lawhawk  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:46:01pm

re: #51 engineer cat

so, is zimmerman going to denounce the muslim brotherhood from the sheremetyevo airport hotel?

life is so confusing with the internets

Obama’s fault. When life gets confusing, go with what brought ya. /

89 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:47:38pm

re: #88 lawhawk

Obama’s fault. When life gets confusing, go with what brought ya. /

Zimmersheremetyevoghazi?!?

90 Kragar  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:48:02pm

Some twit just chimed in on the Reuter’s feed:

“Don’t these people have jobs?”

91 Ian G.  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:50:30pm

re: #67 Kragar

Morsi should have remembered that when he ran roughshod over the new government and tried to make himself the supreme leader.

Yeah, this. Morsi is a lot like Hugo Chavez in a way. Democratically elected? Yes. Devoted to the principles of democracy, civil liberties, and pluralism? Hell no.

92 lawhawk  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:52:18pm

re: #85 NJDhockeyfan

I doubt they will vote for another MB member again.

51% of Egyptians voted for Morsi against a former Mubarak minister, Shafik.

63% approved of the constitution that Morsi and the Brotherhood pushed through.

To say that all those folks will now go quietly ignores that there’s quite a lot who did support Morsi. How much of that support withered away as the economy frittered and Morsi and the Brotherhood focused on everything but the economy?

Not enough to eliminate the possibility that they’d engage in violence? Some are already demanding martyrdom. A few might even get that chance, but the military clearly wants to be viewed as more secular (or at least less Islamist than the Brotherhood intends).

93 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:52:21pm
94 Justanotherhuman  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:53:02pm

re: #82 Backwoods_Sleuth

Did you notice that that story was from Australia?

95 lawhawk  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:54:07pm

re: #90 Kragar

Some twit just chimed in on the Reuter’s feed:

“Don’t these people have jobs?”

If they had jobs, they wouldn’t have overthrown: 1) Mubarak; and 2) Morsi.

The revolution and now apparent coup were due in large part to the failed economy and economic policies.

The next regime/government will have to make that its top priority, if they want any chance to last longer than Morsi did.

96 Kragar  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:55:34pm

Egypt Muslim Brotherhood TV taken off air

The television station of Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood was taken off air and its managers arrested hours after Islamist President Mohamed Mursi was overthrown by the armed forces on Wednesday, state news agency MENA reported.

The Egypt25 channel had been broadcasting live coverage of rallies by tens of thousands of pro-Mursi demonstrators in Cairo and around the country, with speeches by leading Brotherhood politicians denouncing the military intervention to oust the elected president.

97 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:57:25pm

I would have thought this was done days ago.

98 Kragar  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 1:59:59pm

re: #97 NJDhockeyfan

I would have thought this was done days ago.

[Embedded content]

They probably advised them to, but might be making it official/mandatory now.

99 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 2:02:06pm

re: #97 NJDhockeyfan

I would have thought this was done days ago.

[Embedded content]

There are various levels of non-essential. Most of them probably did leave days ago and now the embassy is going to a bare bones staff.

100 lawhawk  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 2:02:21pm

re: #29 Charles Johnson

Not sad to see the Muslim Brotherhood getting tossed out. Not happy to see a military coup, either. No good options.

Best case scenario would have been that Morsi got dumped and was rejected in the next election.

Now, you’re going to have MBers who are going to add this to the long list of grievances against the military and regime that follows Morsi.

Grievances that last a long long long time.

You’re right there are no good answers and a coup was among the worst of the answers - but a relatively bloodless coup was the least bad alternative considering.

It appears that the military didn’t want the protests dragging out the way they did under Mubarak, so they decided to interject themselves directly in short order. While most Egyptians are likely siding with the Army’s actions to dump Morsi, it continues a long line of regimes created and toppled by the military from Nasser to now Morsi.

Lose the support of the Army, and you lose the country.

Best way to stay in power? Keep the Army happy. And that means getting the economy going.

101 Backwoods_Sleuth  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 2:06:26pm

re: #94 Justanotherhuman

yes…when I saw the timestamp, I checked.

102 gwangung  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 2:07:19pm

re: #100 lawhawk

Best way to stay in power? Keep the Army happy. And that means getting the economy going.

That, coincidentally, will bring the rest of the country to your side.

Hm. Funny how that works.

103 Justanotherhuman  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 2:09:53pm

re: #69 Charles Johnson

So does that mean Greenwald and Wikileaks were pwned by Bolivia?

104 Weet  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 2:18:54pm

Even if it turns out that the U.S. had something to do with the Bolivia debacle, I don’t care. I’d like to see Snowden captured, and his name (mostly) out of the press.

105 or maybe so  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 2:44:05pm

Someone should tell France’s UN Mission that, because they’re apologizing for denying Morales access to their airspace. (And for any semanticists out there: yes, temporarily denying access is still denying access.)

franceonu.org

Lot of motivated reasoning going on around these parts. Don’t you think it’s a little credulous to dust your hands off and declare that the case is closed based on a single denial of a massively-embarrassing diplomatic snafu?

106 wrenchwench  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 2:45:47pm

re: #105 or maybe so

Greetings, hatchling.

107 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 2:47:31pm

re: #105 or maybe so

Maybe you should actually read what France said? They apologized for delays, and said:

He underscored that the authorization to fly over French territory was granted as soon as the French authorities had been informed that the aircraft in question was that of President Morales. He also indicated to him that there had, of course, never been any intention of refusing President Morales’s plane access to our airspace; President Morales is always welcome in our country.

This backs up the post, doesn’t contradict it at all.

108 Romantic Heretic  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 2:53:12pm

re: #55 ProTARDISLiberal

Democracy is more than elections. Morsi The GOP never understood that.

My first thought.

109 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 3:06:27pm

re: #105 or maybe so

And for any semanticists out there: yes, temporarily denying access is still denying access.

To address this point, here’s what the French statement says:

The minister of foreign affairs telephoned his Bolivian counterpart to extend to him France’s apologies following the setback experienced by President Morales as a result of the delay in granting the president’s plane permission to fly over French territory.

A “delay in granting permission” is not equivalent to “temporarily denying access.” It is, in fact, a semantic trick to imply that they’re the same thing.

110 or maybe so  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 3:09:07pm

re: #107 Charles Johnson

He underscored that the authorization to fly over French territory was granted as soon as the French authorities had been informed that the aircraft in question was that of President Morales.

In other words, until they “realized” it was Morales, access was denied. We’re in agreement there. The only quibble is that you believe it was an honest mistake and I don’t. They’re being diplomatic, Charles. Don’t be naive.

Funnily enough, you’re telling me I can’t read, yet I already anticipated and responded to this in my first post. “Semanticists?” Bueller?

111 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 3:10:54pm

re: #110 or maybe so

I did appreciate the way you tried to use a semantic trick to head off criticism, though.

112 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 3:12:20pm

re: #110 or maybe so

If I have to wait in line at the market, does that mean they’re “temporarily denying my ability to buy things?”

113 or maybe so  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 3:15:57pm

re: #112 Charles Johnson

You’re obviously going to believe what you want to believe. If this was a run-of-the-mill case of an aircraft requesting permission to enter a country’s airspace, why did France go out of its way to apologize? Again, it’s as though you’ve never heard of diplomatic language.

“Head off criticism.”

Yes, aka anticipating and responding to obvious lines of argumentation. And I was right in assuming that would be coming, so what’s the problem? Everything isn’t so sinister and dire. Not everyone who disagrees with you has vile intentions. Holy crap, man, calm down.

114 wrenchwench  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 3:18:45pm

re: #113 or maybe so

Not everyone who disagrees with you has vile intentions.

Right. Only 100% of those who start out this way:

Lot of motivated reasoning going on around these parts. Don’t you think it’s a little credulous to dust your hands off and declare…

115 AlexRogan  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 3:19:35pm

re: #113 or maybe so

You’re obviously going to believe what you want to believe. If this was a run-of-the-mill case of an aircraft requesting permission to enter a country’s airspace, why did France go out of its way to apologize? Again, it’s as though you’ve never heard of diplomatic language.

“Head off criticism.”

Yes, aka anticipating and responding to obvious lines of argumentation. And I was right in assuming that would be coming, so what’s the problem? Everything isn’t so sinister and dire. Not everyone who disagrees with you has vile intentions. Holy crap, man, calm down.

Thy name is irony.

You didn’t just register today and pop in for a frank and honest discussion, you came for a fight.

116 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 3:19:48pm

re: #113 or maybe so

You’re obviously going to believe what you want to believe. If this was a run-of-the-mill case of an aircraft requesting permission to enter a country’s airspace, why did France go out of its way to apologize? Again, it’s as though you’ve never heard of diplomatic language.

Nobody said it was a “run of the mill case.” Obviously there was some kind of alert about the aircraft that went out, and that led to the delay in granting permission to enter French airspace. That’s not at issue.

Yes, aka anticipating and responding to obvious lines of argumentation. And I was right in assuming that would be coming, so what’s the problem? Everything isn’t so sinister and dire. Not everyone who disagrees with you has vile intentions. Holy crap, man, calm down.

Holy crap, dude. Believe it or not, I’m perfectly calm.

117 thedopefishlives  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 3:20:45pm

re: #113 or maybe so

Your problem is that you’re equating “diplomatic language” with “lying”. He’s the president of a freaking country, they’re going to apologize if they made a mistake, but that doesn’t mean they have to lie to him if they didn’t.

118 or maybe so  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 3:21:37pm

And before you call me a Greenwald bot or whatever, do me a favor and read this. I unlocked it for you. It basically sums up where myself and a lot of others are at on all this. (I’m not Ames, just to make that entirely clear.)

nsfwcorp.com

You’ve been on a real “with us or against us”-esque tear with this stuff lately. I saw that horrible article on someone’s user page you tweeted out yesterday that basically said, “Snowden is un-American because you don’t ever blow the whistle on ‘your team’, ever, because I say so.” Getting mighty Bush-like in here, dude. Have a good one.

119 or maybe so  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 3:22:23pm

re: #115 AlexRogan

Sure thing. I guess people are only allowed to disagree with you guys when they’ve been registered long-term.

I’ll leave you all to your groupthink.

120 thedopefishlives  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 3:23:00pm

re: #119 or maybe so

Sure thing. I guess people are only allowed to disagree with you guys when they’ve been registered long-term.

I’ll leave you all to your groupthink.

You’re allowed to disagree. Have you been banned? You’re still here talking, aren’t you?

121 or maybe so  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 3:24:27pm

re: #118 or maybe so

Err, and this is addressed to Charles.

122 Gus  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 3:24:43pm

Yawn.

123 AlexRogan  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 3:27:44pm

re: #119 or maybe so

Sure thing. I guess people are only allowed to disagree with you guys when they’ve been registered long-term.

I’ll leave you all to your groupthink.

You don’t have the balls to actually stand by and debate your “positions” with provable, substantive facts, so you accuse everyone else of “groupthink” and threaten to take your ball and go home.

Gutless. Punk.

124 AlexRogan  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 3:28:27pm

re: #120 thedopefishlives

You’re allowed to disagree. Have you been banned? You’re still here talking, aren’t you?

Their gums are flapping, but I don’t hear anything of any substance issuing forth.

125 or maybe so  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 3:32:23pm

re: #123 AlexRogan

Yeah, ok. I came in here and based my argument around the provable fact that France’s UN Mission is apologizing. My interpretation of that tightly-parsed language is that they did in fact deny Morales access, and are doing their best to minimize the PR hit. Obviously you all disagree, but that doesn’t make your opinions on the matter any more factual than mine. And pretending you’re up for an honest ‘debate’ while calling me a punk and questioning what you assume to be my manhood is pretty rich.

I’d be happy to stay here but I need to go grocery shopping more than I need to argue on the Internet. Call that a victory if that’s how you roll; doesn’t bother me.

Oh and if anyone is looking at that NSFWCorp link, you can CTRL-F “Which brings me to Edward Snowden” if you want to skip the long preamble and get to the part where Ames actually talks about current events. The Russia stuff is fascinating background though and do recommend taking a look. But what do I know? I’m just a punk.

126 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 3:34:36pm

re: #119 or maybe so

Sure thing. I guess people are only allowed to disagree with you guys when they’ve been registered long-term.

I’ll leave you all to your groupthink.

We don’t agree with each other, though. On a lot of stuff.

127 thedopefishlives  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 3:35:08pm

re: #126 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

We don’t agree with each other, though. On a lot of stuff.

Hush. Facts have no place in this debate. It’s about our interpretation.

128 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 3:37:14pm

re: #118 or maybe so

And before you call me a Greenwald bot or whatever, do me a favor and read this. I unlocked it for you. It basically sums up where myself and a lot of others are at on all this. (I’m not Ames, just to make that entirely clear.)

nsfwcorp.com

You’ve been on a real “with us or against us”-esque tear with this stuff lately. I saw that horrible article on someone’s user page you tweeted out yesterday that basically said, “Snowden is un-American because you don’t ever blow the whistle on ‘your team’, ever, because I say so.” Getting mighty Bush-like in here, dude. Have a good one.

I’ve already read that article, thanks.

As for the LGF Page that apparently upset you greatly, I didn’t write it. If you have a problem with an opinion posted by someone else, take it up with them.

129 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:02:17pm

Let’s see… immediate aggressive comments, multiple goodbyes, accusation of “groupthink,” complaints about being insulted…

Are there some other troll requirements, or is that about the full boat?

130 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:03:02pm

Man, I wish I had a dollar for every time I’ve seen that pattern in our comments. I’d have … lots of dollars.

131 jaunte  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:05:30pm

re: #129 Charles Johnson

Plus hipsterism: “I unlocked this special link for you; it’s an obscure article, you’ve probably never heard of it.”

132 BroncD  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:06:22pm

“If this was a run-of-the-mill case of an aircraft requesting permission to enter a country’s airspace, why did France go out of its way to apologize?”

Because it was the President’s plane and France felt bad about the inconvenience?

133 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:39:52pm

Now, let me be semantically clear about this - I’m not accusing anyone of being a troll. Just saying, all the characteristics are present.

134 DHStone  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 5:03:48pm

re: #105 or maybe so

Actually, the statement says, “authorization to fly over French territory was granted as soon as the French authorities had been informed that the aircraft in question was that of President Morales.” This is consistent with what other countries’ so far unnamed officials have said. Isn’t it at least possible that someone with the Bolivian president’s staff or air force or who ever makes his travel arrangements had failed to make clear that the plane, which is actually a midsized private jet, carried Bolivia’s president? With all due respect to Bolivia and its president, his plane is not Air Force One, or Putin’s Ilyushin, or Xi Jinping’s Boeing 747. It is not readily recognizable, except maybe on the ground. France, Italy, Spain and Portugal certainly have a right to control the transit of private jets through their airspace, particularly if they think an aircraft might be carrying a fugitive. This is only an issue because Bolivia’s president was on board. If they didn’t know he was on board, then there really is no story.

135 wheat-dogghazi  Wed, Jul 3, 2013 9:11:02pm

re: #66 Feline Fearless Leader

I’m sure he won’t say it was because a bunch of religious fanatics took political power as a mandate to try to legally run roughshod over other groups in an attempt to disenfranchise them and lock down future political control.
//

Are you talking about Egypt … or Texas?

136 [deleted]  Sun, Jul 7, 2013 2:25:18am
137 BigPapa  Sun, Jul 7, 2013 8:04:32am

re: #136 or maybe so

Those stories have been debunked.


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