Vegas Terrorists Planned to Take Over Courthouse and “Execute” Public Officials

Dangerous delusional idiots
US News • Views: 26,320

The Las Vegas Review-Journal has new details on the anti-government couple from hell, with the scary news that they were apparently planning to take over a courthouse building and execute public officials as part of their delusional crime spree.

The couple may have been planning a larger attack on an unidentified court building, but police said Monday the two appeared to be working alone and not part of a larger plot. …

Kelley Fielder lived next door to the Millers and called them her “best friends.” She said she didn’t know they were “that crazy.”

She was holding documents for the couple that included detailed plans to take over a courthouse and execute public officials. The file box full of documents, along with three empty rifle cases and an empty box for handcuffs, were confiscated by investigators during a search of Fielder’s apartment.

This is an eerie echo of Friday’s attack by “sovereign citizen” Dennis Marx, in which he tried (and failed) to drive an SUV into a Georgia courthouse, carrying weapons, explosives and zip ties to secure hostages.

Bad right wing craziness is afoot.

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389 comments
1 Gus  Jun 9, 2014 4:43:03pm
2 thedopefishlives  Jun 9, 2014 4:44:36pm

Can we call them terrorists yet?

3 Charles Johnson  Jun 9, 2014 4:45:20pm

re: #2 thedopefishlives

Can we call them terrorists yet?

I am.

4 Targetpractice  Jun 9, 2014 4:46:34pm

Curious as to why they were wanting to do this. Just for the lulz or did it have some connection to their attempt to join the Bundy “militia”?

5 Kragar  Jun 9, 2014 4:47:16pm

Sounds like classic Sovereign Citizen rhetoric

6 Kid A  Jun 9, 2014 4:47:31pm

They should all be considered terrorists, but because they are white and not Muslim they are considered “gunmen.” And the NRA hates that, too.

7 thedopefishlives  Jun 9, 2014 4:47:44pm

re: #3 Charles Johnson

I am.

I am too. But apparently that makes me the bad guy, or something. I get confused by the circular logic and cognitive dissonance of the derpstream.

8 Egregious Philbin  Jun 9, 2014 4:48:21pm

What were their Freeper names?

Amazing to see how the right is playing Helen Keller today, seeing, hearing, and saying nothing.

9 EPR-radar  Jun 9, 2014 4:48:30pm

re: #2 thedopefishlives

Can we call them terrorists yet?

The Las Vegas Review-Journal doesn’t seem to think so.

Chickenshits.

This is textbook RWNJ terrorism, perfectly analogous to the stuff that some nuts on the left did in the 60s and 70s.

10 Gus  Jun 9, 2014 4:49:46pm
11 Lidane  Jun 9, 2014 4:49:56pm

re: #8 Egregious Philbin

Amazing to see how the right is playing Helen Keller today, seeing, hearing, and saying nothing.

Freepers have been in full denial. Cries of FALSE FLAG OP! THEY’RE LIBERALS! NO TRUE TEA PARTY! have been happening all day.

12 Kid A  Jun 9, 2014 4:51:13pm

re: #10 Gus

HE’S A LIBERAL!!! FALSE FLAG!!!

13 Killgore Trout  Jun 9, 2014 4:51:15pm

re: #4 Targetpractice

Curious as to why they were wanting to do this. Just for the lulz or did it have some connection to their attempt to join the Bundy “militia”?

I think it was just generic libertarian rage about courts and tyranny.
Las Vegas Shooter Anti-Government Tirade
Liveleak Video

He talks about courthouses in his rant

14 Skip Intro  Jun 9, 2014 4:51:52pm

re: #2 thedopefishlives

Can we call them terrorists yet?

We can. The media doesn’t think that applies to anyone who isn’t from the Middle East.

15 Skip Intro  Jun 9, 2014 4:53:16pm

re: #8 Egregious Philbin

What were their Freeper names?

Amazing to see how the right is playing Helen Keller today, seeing, hearing, and saying nothing.

I was wondering that too after someone posted that all posts about these two were forbidden at RimJob’s House of Grift.

16 Targetpractice  Jun 9, 2014 4:53:18pm

re: #13 Killgore Trout

I think it was just generic libertarian rage about courts and tyranny.
Las Vegas Shooter Anti-Government Tirade
[Embedded content]

He talks about courthouses in his rant

So really, just for the lulz, go for a target that sums up all their philosophy.

17 Dr Lizardo  Jun 9, 2014 4:55:12pm

re: #11 Lidane

Freepers have been in full denial. Cries of FALSE FLAG OP! THEY’RE LIBERALS! NO TRUE TEA PARTY! have been happening all day.

Yeah, the Freepers are in full-on denial mode regarding this. It seems like a lot of people on the right are about this.

I wonder how they’ll handle it when the next Tim McVeigh sets off the next OKC bomb, leading to hundreds dead, and he does it in the name of the Tea Party? Or “fighting the Nazi-like Obama regime”? Or “Freedom!!”?

I suspect they’ll go even deeper into denial at that point. They simply cannot - ever - admit their culpability in such atrocities.

18 SpaceJesus  Jun 9, 2014 4:55:22pm

“I didn’t know they were ‘that crazy’, I thought they just didn’t care much for minorities, and horded weapons.”

19 Dr Lizardo  Jun 9, 2014 4:56:24pm

re: #15 Skip Intro

I was wondering that too after someone posted that all posts about these two were forbidden at RimJob’s House of Grift.

Not really ‘forbidden’, but definitely being downplayed as much as possible.

20 CriticalDragon1177  Jun 9, 2014 4:56:35pm

re: #2 thedopefishlives

Can we call them terrorists yet?

re: #3 Charles Johnson

I am.

So am I, and I’m glad these terrorists are no longer among the living. Now the Millers won’t be able to take the lives any more innocent people. Both of those maniacs are history, and thankfully the world will never have to deal with them again.

21 Rev_Arthur_Belling  Jun 9, 2014 4:57:04pm

I just posted this at the end of the last post, but wanted to mention this worthwhile article about the LV shooters and chemtrail theories that I paged:

littlegreenfootballs.com

22 Gus  Jun 9, 2014 4:57:18pm

re: #12 Kid A

HE’S A LIBERAL!!! FALSE FLAG!!!

Word clouds.

12 Words

24 Words

23 Skip Intro  Jun 9, 2014 4:58:45pm

re: #19 Dr Lizardo

Not really ‘forbidden’, but definitely being downplayed as much as possible.

Rimmy can really batten things down when he has to. I remember how every single post made by Tony Snow was removed from the site overnight after he was announced as Bush’s press secretary.

24 blueraven  Jun 9, 2014 4:59:37pm

re: #13 Killgore Trout

I think it was just generic libertarian tea party rage about courts and tyranny.
Las Vegas Shooter Anti-Government Tirade
[Embedded content]

He talks about courthouses in his rant

FTFY

25 Charles Johnson  Jun 9, 2014 4:59:39pm
26 Charles Johnson  Jun 9, 2014 4:59:57pm
27 Dr Lizardo  Jun 9, 2014 5:00:39pm

re: #23 Skip Intro

Rimmy can really batten things down when he has to. I remember how every single post made by Tony Snow was removed from the site overnight after he was announced as Bush’s press secretary.

That’s true. The admins seem to be downplaying this incident as much as possible.

28 Backwoods_Sleuth  Jun 9, 2014 5:00:50pm

On his FB page, he rants a lot about judges, the legal system, unconstitutional laws, etc.

29 jaunte  Jun 9, 2014 5:01:05pm

Chris Matthews helpfullly explaining that just because crazies shoot up the police, we can’t restrict free speech. I didn’t hear that being floated as a solution.

30 Charles Johnson  Jun 9, 2014 5:01:45pm

Meanwhile…

31 Gus  Jun 9, 2014 5:02:18pm

re: #26 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Not a chemtrail guy.

32 goddamnedfrank  Jun 9, 2014 5:02:38pm

The golf fringed flag of an admiralty court prolly touched his swimsuit area or something.

33 Feline Fearless Leader  Jun 9, 2014 5:03:49pm

Hmm, and a cable channel called “Retroplex” is showing a film called “The People That Time Forgot”.

34 Skip Intro  Jun 9, 2014 5:05:31pm

re: #27 Dr Lizardo

That’s true. The admins seem to be downplaying this incident as much as possible.

Rimmy rakes off a third of a million dollars a year from his site. I doubt he wants to invite any government scrutiny into who his posters are or where his money comes from.

35 piratedan  Jun 9, 2014 5:05:57pm

it is kinda funny that the same folks that cite chemtrails as some kind of government conspiracy that needs to be investigated more fully are the same group that denies that there’s any truth to the scientific evidence of climate change….

36 Shiplord Kirel  Jun 9, 2014 5:07:17pm
This is an eerie echo of Friday’s attack by “sovereign citizen” Dennis Marx, in which he tried (and failed) to drive an SUV into a Georgia courthouse, carrying weapons, explosives and zip ties to secure hostages.

2 incidents in 3 days. Soon it will be 3 in 2 days and then? I don’t think it will reach the level of the 1962 OAS rampage in Algeria, when that right wing terrorist gang was committing more than 100 attacks a day, but there is no reason to think it is impossible. We have seen plenty of terrorist outrages from the left, but nobody does it like the right.

37 EPR-radar  Jun 9, 2014 5:07:27pm

re: #34 Skip Intro

Rimmy rakes off a third of a million dollars a year from his site. I doubt he wants to invite any government scrutiny into who his posters are or where his money comes from.

Ugh. I didn’t need to know that running the cloaca of the political internet was so lucrative.

38 jaunte  Jun 9, 2014 5:08:05pm

re: #25 Charles Johnson

39 Shiplord Kirel  Jun 9, 2014 5:08:46pm

re: #30 Charles Johnson

Meanwhile…

Brad Thor ✔ @BradThor
Follow
Hmm: Did the US Also Pay a Ransom As Part of the Bergdahl Deal?

[Embedded content]

Don’t know, Brad, but I would have been happy to chip in if they had asked.

40 Rev_Arthur_Belling  Jun 9, 2014 5:08:46pm

Even if what #31 Gus posted is factual, I’m going to leave my page up, because I think the point made by the author of the piece I linked to is valid re: conspiracy theories. And I really like The Vane, generally.

I might revise my intro a little.

41 Stanley Sea  Jun 9, 2014 5:08:47pm

Mark Potok from the SPLC on Anderson Cooper right now. Nailing it.

42 S'latch  Jun 9, 2014 5:08:53pm

they’re basically anarchists

43 SteveMcGazi  Jun 9, 2014 5:09:45pm

re: #41 Stanley Sea

Mark Potok from the SPLC on Anderson Cooper right now. Nailing it.

So what’s he saying?

44 Skip Intro  Jun 9, 2014 5:10:26pm

The Fox News agenda for tonight.

Stockman to Obama: Did you pay terrorists?

stockman.house.gov

45 Stanley Sea  Jun 9, 2014 5:12:39pm

re: #43 SteveMcGazi

So what’s he saying?

Same stuff, correct stuff, but I appreciate the audience they are getting.

46 Stanley Sea  Jun 9, 2014 5:13:34pm

Bundy is responsible for this.

47 dog philosopher  Jun 9, 2014 5:14:21pm

Dear American Political Discussions,

Socialism is an economic system where the national government owns and operates major industries and private individuals and corporations are not allowed to

merriam-webster.com

Fascism is a political system where the government controls the lives of the people and in which people are not allowed to disagree with the government

merriam-webster.com

a capitalist country may have a fascist government - e.g., pinochet - and a socialist country may have a democratic government

PLEASE MAKE A NOTE OF IT

48 Dr Lizardo  Jun 9, 2014 5:18:50pm

re: #34 Skip Intro

Rimmy rakes off a third of a million dollars a year from his site. I doubt he wants to invite any government scrutiny into who his posters are or where his money comes from.

Yeah, those quarterly grift-a-thons add up the revenue. Must be nice; wish I was so unethical as to get me some of the sweet, sweet wingnut welfare. I’d be living like King Croesus over here.

49 GeneJockey  Jun 9, 2014 5:21:42pm

re: #47 dog philosopher

Dear American Political Discussions,

Socialism is an economic system where the national government owns and operates major industries and private individuals and corporations are not allowed to

merriam-webster.com

Fascism is a political system where the government controls the lives of the people and in which people are not allowed to disagree with the government

merriam-webster.com

a capitalist country may have a fascist government - e.g., pinochet - and a socialist country may have a democratic government

PLEASE MAKE A NOTE OF IT

As Newt says in “Aliens” about the Colonial Marines, “It won’t make any difference”

50 Shiplord Kirel  Jun 9, 2014 5:22:15pm

As far as I’m concerned the far right’s much-lusted for civil war has already started. Fort Sumter is behind us and we are in the farting around stage before Grant and Sherman came forward to take care of business.

51 GeneJockey  Jun 9, 2014 5:23:16pm

re: #50 Shiplord Kirel

As far as I’m concerned the far right’s much-lusted for civil war has already started. Fort Sumter is behind us and we are in the farting around stage before Grant and Sherman came forward to take care of business.

Ooooo! Let’s all take a picnic lunch out so watch the first battle!
///

53 sattv4u2  Jun 9, 2014 5:24:22pm

ugh ,,
10 hours today in engineer hell

Overnight operator had an issue with a piece of equipment failing while service was onair

10 hours later, equipment has been working fine under ‘test” conditions. Can’t replicate the problem

HENCE ,,, conundrum
Okay equipment for use (with the chance the same issue may bare it;s ugly head whilst i’m not here)
or take equipment out of use (problem with that is some service gets no backup)

ugh!!

54 Charles Johnson  Jun 9, 2014 5:24:43pm
55 GeneJockey  Jun 9, 2014 5:25:23pm

In addition to the ‘They wuz REALLY lib’ruls!’ approach Hoft et al. are taking, there’s also the ‘Crickets’ approach. Checked out my old stomping grounds on the Bowsite - not a single thread on it.

56 sattv4u2  Jun 9, 2014 5:25:27pm

And your day!?!?

57 Skip Intro  Jun 9, 2014 5:25:41pm

re: #52 Stanley Sea

A northern Indiana man has pleaded guilty to criminal charges in the shooting death of his girlfriend’s 3-year-old son while playing a gun game with the boy.

Grisham told police he forgot his gun was loaded before it fired, killing Lance.

Guns and morons. A match made in hell.

58 dog philosopher  Jun 9, 2014 5:26:08pm

re: #53 sattv4u2

ugh ,,
10 hours today in engineer hell

Overnight operator had an issue with a piece of equipment failing while service was onair

10 hours later, equipment has been working fine under ‘test” conditions. Can’t replicate the problem

HENCE ,,, conundrum
Okay equipment for use (with the chance the same issue may bare it;s ugly head whilst i’m not here)
or take equipment out of use (problem with that is some service gets no backup)

ugh!!

unreproducible bugs are agents of satan

59 Charles Johnson  Jun 9, 2014 5:26:15pm
60 sattv4u2  Jun 9, 2014 5:27:05pm

re: #58 dog philosopher

unreproducible bugs are agents of satan

Double Updings (I’ll put one on that and your next)

61 Shiplord Kirel  Jun 9, 2014 5:28:16pm

re: #54 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Wow, now he has TWO weird voices to try to listen to.

62 Skip Intro  Jun 9, 2014 5:28:33pm

re: #58 dog philosopher

unreproducible bugs are agents of satan

Reminds me of The Journal of Irreproducible Results from way back when.

Good stuff, that.

63 Charles Johnson  Jun 9, 2014 5:28:44pm

I don’t blame this psychologist that’s on CNN for trying to raise consciousness about mental disorders. But I continue to believe it’s incredibly wrong to apply the “insane” label to killers like these.

64 GeneJockey  Jun 9, 2014 5:29:05pm

re: #58 dog philosopher

unreproducible bugs are agents of satan

“I’m sorry, little lady, but it runs fine for me. Are you SURE it’s making that noise?”

65 S'latch  Jun 9, 2014 5:29:35pm

re: #57 Skip Intro

guns, morons and right wing ideology is a threesome from hell

66 HappyWarrior  Jun 9, 2014 5:29:35pm
67 Dark_Falcon  Jun 9, 2014 5:29:46pm

re: #5 Kragar

Sounds like classic Sovereign Citizen rhetoric

Partially, but it needs to be noted that the great majority of ‘Sovreign Citizen’ types seek to avoid government authority or impede it with bogus legal proceedings. Those who outright attack the government are rare, and this asshole actually doesn’t fit their profile. This is because he doesn’t seem to have felt trapped and attacked so much as he felt aggrieved and nihilistic.

This turkey’s adoption of The Joker as one of his personae is very telling: He didn’t want to return America to a “pre-Big Government state of being”, he just wanted to wreck havoc and watch things burn.

All that said, this dirtbag is a product of the far-right, don’t think he isn’t.

68 sattv4u2  Jun 9, 2014 5:30:05pm

re: #64 GeneJockey

“I’m sorry, little lady, but it runs fine for me. Are you SURE it’s making that noise?”

“umm,,,, the smoke coming out of the back of that is a feature, not a bug!!”

69 klys  Jun 9, 2014 5:30:10pm

re: #63 Charles Johnson

I don’t blame this psychologist that’s on CNN for trying to raise consciousness about mental disorders. But I continue to believe it’s incredibly wrong to apply the “insane” label to killers like these.

They’re only “insane” because they’re white. If they were black, they’d be thugs. If they were brown and/or Muslim, they’d be terrorists.

70 Minor_L  Jun 9, 2014 5:30:26pm

re: #63 Charles Johnson

It’s a red herring. And, it also paints the mentally ill as violent, which they’re not, as a group.

71 HappyWarrior  Jun 9, 2014 5:30:36pm

re: #63 Charles Johnson

I don’t blame this psychologist that’s on CNN for trying to raise consciousness about mental disorders. But I continue to believe it’s incredibly wrong to apply the “insane” label to killers like these.

I have to agree. The term “insanity” implies that the person in question can’t tell right from wrong. Seems to me that this wasn’t Miller or his wife’s problem.

72 GeneJockey  Jun 9, 2014 5:31:07pm

re: #66 HappyWarrior

Another “good guy with a gun.” Sigh. Enough of this.

Right up till the gun went off, he was another Responsible Gun Owner Whose Rights Must Not Be Infringed. Suddenly he became No True Scotsman.

And probably a Liberal.

73 Gus  Jun 9, 2014 5:31:35pm

74 Skip Intro  Jun 9, 2014 5:31:37pm

re: #71 HappyWarrior

I have to agree. The term “insanity” implies that the person in question can’t tell right from wrong. Seems to me that this wasn’t Miller or his wife’s problem.

Hell, they only announced their intentions for three damn years!

75 GeneJockey  Jun 9, 2014 5:31:51pm

re: #69 klys

They’re only “insane” because they’re white. If they were black, they’d be thugs. If they were brown and/or Muslim, they’d be terrorists.

DING DING DING! Yes! That’s the correct answer!

76 Charles Johnson  Jun 9, 2014 5:31:57pm

re: #69 klys

I was actually just typing this when you posted…

77 S'latch  Jun 9, 2014 5:32:00pm

re: #63 Charles Johnson

yes. being criminally stupid is not the same as being insane.

78 HappyWarrior  Jun 9, 2014 5:32:20pm

re: #69 klys

They’re only “insane” because they’re white. If they were black, they’d be thugs. If they were brown and/or Muslim, they’d be terrorists.

It’s sad but true. White guy going on a shooting spree is a nut. Black guy does the same and we talk about thugs and gang violence. Middle easterner does it and it’s about terrorism and or Islam.

79 klys  Jun 9, 2014 5:32:22pm

re: #76 Charles Johnson

Yeah, it’s a pretty clear ongoing theme. We can point it out, but the crickets will continue.

80 GeneJockey  Jun 9, 2014 5:33:32pm

re: #70 Minor_L

It’s a red herring. And, it also paints the mentally ill as violent, which they’re not, as a group.

It’s also a facile dismissal of any consideration of the real problem.

81 HappyWarrior  Jun 9, 2014 5:33:49pm

re: #72 GeneJockey

Right up till the gun went off, he was another Responsible Gun Owner Whose Rights Must Not Be Infringed. Suddenly he became No True Scotsman.

And probably a Liberal.

I was asking aloud about this downstairs but I’ll ask again here how the hell am I supposed to know the difference between a good guy with a gun and a bad guy with one. that is to say, if I am on the streets and I see a type like Elliott Rodger carrying and a type like the Texas concealed open carry on types carrying.
Edited because I meant open carry.

82 Mike Lamb  Jun 9, 2014 5:34:46pm

re: #67 Dark_Falcon

Partially, but it needs to be noted that the great majority of ‘Sovreign Citizen’ types seek to avoid government authority or impede it with bogus legal proceedings. Those who outright attack the government are rare, and this asshole actually doesn’t fit their profile. This is because he doesn’t seem to have felt trapped and attacked so much as he felt aggrieved and nihilistic.

This turkey’s adoption of The Joker as one of his personae is very telling: He didn’t want to return America to a “pre-Big Government state of being”, he just wanted to wreck havoc and watch things burn.

All that said, this dirtbag is a product of the far-right, don’t think he isn’t.

Stating the obvious truism that “those who outright attack the government are rare…” adds nothing. Of course far more people say rather than do. The problem is that you have a political party that is legitimizing a movement that should be shamed out of existence. Why? Because they don’t like a Democrat in office. And it’s unequivocally not a two way street.

I do not blame the GOP for what happened. The fault lies with the people that pulled the trigger. But the GOP is establishing an environment that appeals to and providing a megaphone for such people and ideologies.

83 Gus  Jun 9, 2014 5:34:50pm

re: #76 Charles Johnson

I was actually just typing this when you posted…

[Embedded content]

84 Minor_L  Jun 9, 2014 5:34:57pm

re: #80 GeneJockey

Yep. We never have to talk about any of the real reasons these things happen if we blame it on mental illness. That means we do absolutely nothing to prevent it in the future.

85 Dark_Falcon  Jun 9, 2014 5:35:11pm

re: #63 Charles Johnson

I don’t blame this psychologist that’s on CNN for trying to raise consciousness about mental disorders. But I continue to believe it’s incredibly wrong to apply the “insane” label to killers like these.

I agree. These two come across as psychopathic, not psychotic. They knew right from wrong, but they just didn’t care.

What I don’t know is what to do about psychopaths if they are discovered before they commit a significant crime. They aren’t insane and in any case they cannot be treated as most mentally ill people can be.

86 dog philosopher  Jun 9, 2014 5:35:13pm

re: #81 HappyWarrior

I was asking aloud about this downstairs but I’ll ask again here how the hell am I supposed to know the difference between a good guy with a gun and a bad guy with one. that is to say, if I am on the streets and I see a type like Elliott Rodger carrying and a type like the Texas concealed carry on types carrying.

use the same method the nsa uses to tell whether it is wiretapping a terrorist or an innocent person

87 Dr Lizardo  Jun 9, 2014 5:36:26pm

re: #80 GeneJockey

It’s also a facile dismissal of any consideration of the real problem.

The only reason I can imagine the media is so deeply reluctant to pin the “domestic terrorist” label on the Millers is that simply have no desire to provoke the inevitable howls of rage from the RW’ers; thus, they chalk it up to something else, with a different moniker.

88 GeneJockey  Jun 9, 2014 5:36:43pm

re: #81 HappyWarrior

I was asking aloud about this downstairs but I’ll ask again here how the hell am I supposed to know the difference between a good guy with a gun and a bad guy with one. that is to say, if I am on the streets and I see a type like Elliott Rodger carrying and a type like the Texas concealed carry on types carrying.

You can only tell in retrospect.

89 Romantic Heretic  Jun 9, 2014 5:38:02pm

re: #42 S’latch

they’re basically anarchists

That’s what I regard all the libertarians as.

As I’ve said before all libertarianism is a marketing strategy. A sneaky and very successful one.

First it cuts the libertarians off from history. Since they are no longer anarchists they no longer carry the baggage that anarchy carries, the various acts of terror and other batshit craziness anarchists perpetrated in the 19th and early 20th Centuries.

Secondly the new name sets the debate before it has even started. By using liberty as the root word of the new name it makes it appear that anyone who disagrees with libertarianism is disagreeing with the concept of liberty itself. It’s bullshit, of course.

The fact that so many people have fallen for this piece of misdirection illustrates how slow on the uptake many people are.

90 Dark_Falcon  Jun 9, 2014 5:38:19pm

re: #81 HappyWarrior

I was asking aloud about this downstairs but I’ll ask again here how the hell am I supposed to know the difference between a good guy with a gun and a bad guy with one. that is to say, if I am on the streets and I see a type like Elliott Rodger carrying and a type like the Texas concealed open carry on types carrying.

Corrected for accuracy. If the the people we’ve been talking about were only carrying pistols concealed in Texas, then there would not be a major issue. It’s the open and obnoxious carrying of semi-auto rifles that has triggered a brouhaha.

91 Charles Johnson  Jun 9, 2014 5:38:39pm
92 HappyWarrior  Jun 9, 2014 5:38:59pm

re: #88 GeneJockey

You can only tell in retrospect.

Exactly. I mean Rodger had no criminal record before his shooting spree. No one knew about his hatred of women. We’re often finding about these “bad guys” before it’s too late.

93 SteveMcGazi  Jun 9, 2014 5:39:42pm

re: #54 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

We did that at nursing school to try to learn what it might be like for a schizophrenic person. I realized that I was! For years actually. I never understood why people listened to the voices that tell them to jump off a bridge or hurt somebody. (If I told you to jump in front of a bus you would tell me to fuck off, and that’s what I always did). But the arguments I could never win were the ones where people I knew told me I was a fraud, that soon everybody would know what a failure I am, that the only way I could have friends was to act like somebody else. I thought I was functioning okay after all these years, but the fact is that my soul has rotted out from the inside. There is no SteveMcG, only some amalgamation of phony personas. People think I’m easygoing, but the fact is that I can’t think of anything I want. I’m always like “Let’s do what you want to do”. I tried getting help but everything got so much worse, so I quit the meds and the counselling and I’m trying to put the toothpaste back in the tube. And it’ snot working.
I guess the fact is that it’s one thing to simulate the auditory hallucinations, but try asking the nurse at Friends Hospital (my clinical rotation for psychiatric nursing last semester) for a med list while you’re locked IN the unit and all hell is breaking loose in your head. Try to do that and not let it show.

94 Killgore Trout  Jun 9, 2014 5:39:53pm

Cable networks should be forced to play this on a continuous loop for 7 days after a shooting
Charlie Brooker’s Newswipe 25/03/09
Youtube Video

95 Shazam  Jun 9, 2014 5:40:05pm

re: #81 HappyWarrior

I was asking aloud about this downstairs but I’ll ask again here how the hell am I supposed to know the difference between a good guy with a gun and a bad guy with one. that is to say, if I am on the streets and I see a type like Elliott Rodger carrying and a type like the Texas concealed carry on types carrying.

Well, if I was a RWNJ I’d say start applauding when they come into Cici’s and don’t stop unless they start shooting, then run. As a sane person, I say run the moment you see them, just in case.

96 GeneJockey  Jun 9, 2014 5:40:30pm

re: #87 Dr Lizardo

The only reason I can imagine the media is so deeply reluctant to pin the “domestic terrorist” label on the Millers is that simply no desire to provoke the inevitable howls of rage from the RW’ers; thus, they chalk it up to something else, with a different moniker.

There’s also the fact that the story is easier to write if they’re insane. And as Al Franken said, the Media aren’t biased towards Left or Right. They’re biased towards lazy.

97 HappyWarrior  Jun 9, 2014 5:40:45pm

re: #90 Dark_Falcon

Corrected for accuracy. If the the people we’ve been talking about were only carrying pistols concealed in Texas, then there would not be a major issue. It’s the open and obnoxious carrying of semi-auto rifles that has triggered a brouhaha.

Okay I meant open. My bad. My larger point is how the hell am I supposed to as a citizen without a gun who the hell means me harm? I don’t want to live in a society where I have to be worried about that but that to me is exactly the kind of culture of fear that by opposing any responsible legislation on arms that the NRA and like minded groups are and have been creating.

98 Romantic Heretic  Jun 9, 2014 5:41:02pm

re: #47 dog philosopher

a capitalist country may have a fascist government - e.g., pinochet

I believe that capitalism prefers fascist governments. It’s much easier to do business there.

As my favourite write puts it, “Capitalism was content under Hitler, happy under Mussolini, very happy under Franco and delirious under General Pinochet.”

99 jaunte  Jun 9, 2014 5:41:04pm

Hannity twitter: Las Vegas? What’s that?
twitter.com

100 Dr Lizardo  Jun 9, 2014 5:41:21pm

re: #91 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

But of course! You see, white people don’t do horrible things like mass murder for political reason, or the Bath School Massacre, or other assorted nasty things. Only the mentally disturbed do that.

But those other, swarthier folks? Yeah, fuck them, they’re all terrorists.

//

*smh*

102 GeneJockey  Jun 9, 2014 5:43:16pm

re: #92 HappyWarrior

Exactly. I mean Rodger had no criminal record before his shooting spree. No one knew about his hatred of women. We’re often finding about these “bad guys” before it’s too late.

I’m not sure it’s clear that NO ONE knew it. From what little I’ve read, he posted some pretty hateful shit a number of places. The thing is, those places are so full of hateful shit like that that it went unnoted.

That’s the thing about the Millers - their anti-government rhetoric doesn’t raise any alarms because it’s the same shit everyone’s wingnut uncle posts on FB all the friggin’ time!

103 Killgore Trout  Jun 9, 2014 5:43:26pm

re: #89 Romantic Heretic

That’s what I regard all the libertarians as.

As I’ve said before all libertarianism is a marketing strategy. A sneaky and very successful one.

First it cuts the libertarians off from history. Since they are no longer anarchists they no longer carry the baggage that anarchy carries, the various acts of terror and other batshit craziness anarchists perpetrated in the 19th and early 20th Centuries.

Secondly the new name sets the debate before it has even started. By using liberty as the root word of the new name it makes it appear that anyone who disagrees with libertarianism is disagreeing with the concept of liberty itself. It’s bullshit, of course.

The fact that so many people have fallen for this piece of misdirection illustrates how slow on the uptake many people are.

It also appeals to youth who want to be counter-culture and different from the generic liberal and conservative dichotomy. For adults it seems to thrive only in rural areas. Not many libertarians riding the subways.

104 Dark_Falcon  Jun 9, 2014 5:43:49pm

re: #97 HappyWarrior

Okay I meant open. My bad. My larger point is how the hell am I supposed to know as a citizen without a gun who the hell means me harm? I don’t want to live in a society where I have to be worried about that but that to me is exactly the kind of culture of fear that by opposing any responsible legislation on arms that the NRA and like minded groups are and have been creating.

I added a word based on what I presume you mean. I don’t have an answer though, if only because I’ve had too many cases where someone I thought was good turned out to be an asshole.

105 dog philosopher  Jun 9, 2014 5:43:56pm

re: #103 Killgore Trout

It also appeals to youth who want to be counter-culture and different from the generic liberal and conservative dichotomy

incorrect

106 SteveMcGazi  Jun 9, 2014 5:44:09pm

re: #93 SteveMcGazi

BTW I do know the difference between right and wrong. I have trouble sometimes discerning what’s real and not real, and that also happens to some truly insane killers. I will never handle a gun and just to be on the safe side I stay by myself away from the edge when I take the subway. I may think I’m under reasonable control but I’m not arrogant enough to be certain.

107 Charles Johnson  Jun 9, 2014 5:44:50pm
108 HappyWarrior  Jun 9, 2014 5:44:53pm

re: #98 Romantic Heretic

I believe that capitalism prefers fascist governments. It’s much easier to do business there.

As my favourite write puts it, “Capitalism was content under Hitler, happy under Mussolini, very happy under Franco and delirious under General Pinochet.”

Whose words are those? I’ve seen that quote before. That quote though does get at why I’ve seen many right wingers defending many fascist regimes especially ones like the Pinochet one. Sometimes, I think their only real beef with communist regimes is not the lack of human rights but rather the economics only. Frankly, this was and still is my big beef with many US foreign policy decisions during the Cold War whee being anti-communist meant more than having respect for human rights.

109 wrenchwench  Jun 9, 2014 5:45:00pm

re: #67 Dark_Falcon

Partially, but it needs to be noted that the great majority of ‘Sovreign Citizen’ types seek to avoid government authority or impede it with bogus legal proceedings. Those who outright attack the government are rare, and this asshole actually doesn’t fit their profile. This is because he doesn’t seem to have felt trapped and attacked so much as he felt aggrieved and nihilistic.

This turkey’s adoption of The Joker as one of his personae is very telling: He didn’t want to return America to a “pre-Big Government state of being”, he just wanted to wreck havoc and watch things burn.

All that said, this dirtbag is a product of the far-right, don’t think he isn’t.

From Gus’s Update #5:

Why am I any different when I have never been to prison yet I am a political enemy to the established oligarchy so they have papers that make me seem like a common criminal, who by the way, still deserve their rights to vote and own a firearm. If they don’t have those rights then they are not American citizens and therefore have immunity under their despotism. So, anyone trying to “get” me would find someone not even technically under their jurisdiction any longer. As far as I am concerned my government is a fascist enemy. Unlike all those loyal Nazis, I will not tolerate despotic rule over me and my family. My family has bled for this nation and our freedoms and I will not let their sacrifice go unanswered without my own sacrifice. So let them call me a criminal. Let them smear my name all over the place. George Washington would be proud to stand shoulder to shoulder with me and my wife. Who cares what all these loyalists think.

I think Jerad Miller thought he fit their profile.

110 jaunte  Jun 9, 2014 5:45:58pm

Statement from Michele Fiore, Assemblywoman District 4. (Cliven Bundy supporter):

Friends,

My heart hurts over the shooting this weekend. This is a tragedy for our community, and I urge you to join me in standing in support of our local law enforcement.

As a legislator and as a Nevadan, public safety is my number one priority. Members of our law enforcement put their lives on the line every day to keep our community safe, and Officers Alyn Beck and Igor Soldo made the ultimate sacrifice only because they were wearing their law enforcement uniforms.
….snip…..
I’m sure the media will bring forward all sorts of information in the coming days, and I urge you to not jump to conclusions until all the facts are known. One of the questions that weighs heavily on me is whether the shooters had access to mental health services and what types of drugs or medication they may have been using.
votefiore.com

Because they couldn’t have been encouraged by your support for lawlessness.

111 Rocky-in-Connecticut  Jun 9, 2014 5:46:14pm

more specific = Libertarian Terrorists

112 klys  Jun 9, 2014 5:46:57pm

re: #110 jaunte

Statement from Michele Fiore, Assemblywoman District 4. (Cliven Bundy supporter):

Because they couldn’t have been encouraged by your support for lawlessness.

I urge you not to jump to any conclusions but here’s a nice avenue for your speculation to pursue.

///

113 HappyWarrior  Jun 9, 2014 5:47:07pm

re: #104 Dark_Falcon

I added a word based on what I presume you mean. I don’t have an answer though, if only because I’ve had too many cases where someone I thought was good turned out to be an asshole.

My point is I guess if I’m in say a supermarket orwhere ever these open carry fuckwads want to carry. How the hell am I supposed to know if it’s just some coward who likes to feel tough with is gun or the next Elliott Rodger/Alex Holmes/Jared Loughner etc. What I’m getting at is this “good guy with gun and bad guy with gun” stuff is simplistic as hell.

114 Dark_Falcon  Jun 9, 2014 5:48:01pm

re: #109 wrenchwench

From Gus’s Update #5:

I think Jerad Miller thought he fit their profile.

Maybe he though that, but law enforcement couldn’t reach that conclusion due to the “clutter” created by haters and posers. Its tough to figure out who’s dangerous and who’s just a mall ninja.

115 Charles Johnson  Jun 9, 2014 5:48:15pm
116 EPR-radar  Jun 9, 2014 5:48:50pm

re: #113 HappyWarrior

My point is I guess if I’m in say a supermarket orwhere ever these open carry fuckwads want to carry. How the hell am I supposed to know if it’s just some coward who likes to feel tough with is gun or the next Elliott Rodger/Alex Holmes/Jared Loughner etc. What I’m getting at is this “good guy with gun and bad guy with gun” stuff is simplistic as hell.

What’s the problem here? Color coding should deal with most cases, and any infringement of the 2A is unthinkable anyway, so just deal with it.

117 Shazam  Jun 9, 2014 5:48:52pm

re: #97 HappyWarrior

The issue is gun lovers don’t know or care how they come across. When they walk around with guns, everyone is just supposed to know they’re the good guy. Like how Trayvon Martin was supposed to know the white guy chasing him with a gun was a good guy. I mean, Zimmerman wasn’t even dressed like the Joker!

118 HappyWarrior  Jun 9, 2014 5:49:19pm

re: #102 GeneJockey

I’m not sure it’s clear that NO ONE knew it. From what little I’ve read, he posted some pretty hateful shit a number of places. The thing is, those places are so full of hateful shit like that that it went unnoted.

That’s the thing about the Millers - their anti-government rhetoric doesn’t raise any alarms because it’s the same shit everyone’s wingnut uncle posts on FB all the friggin’ time!

You’re right, he was posting on forums that catered to his hateful views. I guess I meant no one in his immediate life seems to have known that this guy had some deep seated hatred towards women. I tell you what the most eerie thing for me watching the Rodger video was not his evil laugh but watching people in the background walking by and going on with their lives while Ellott Rodger was broadcasting his rationale for what ended up being a mass murder.

119 Pie-onist Overlord  Jun 9, 2014 5:49:33pm

re: #34 Skip Intro

Rimmy rakes off a third of a million dollars a year from his site. I doubt he wants to invite any government scrutiny into who his posters are or where his money comes from.

You’d think he could hire some web designers for that kinda dough.

120 klys  Jun 9, 2014 5:50:16pm

re: #119 Pie-onist Overlord

You’d think he could hire some web designers for that kinda dough.

Conservatives are too resistant to change for that to work.

/half

121 EPR-radar  Jun 9, 2014 5:50:29pm

re: #114 Dark_Falcon

Maybe he though that, but law enforcement couldn’t reach that conclusion due to the “clutter” created by haters and posers. Its tough to figure out who’s dangerous and who’s just a mall ninja.

Enough mall ninja chatter creates an environment more conducive to the extremist fringes acting out. Another example of stochastic terrorism.

122 Pie-onist Overlord  Jun 9, 2014 5:50:58pm

re: #46 Stanley Sea

Bundy is responsible for this.

Hannity even more so, for giving these insane assholes a bullhorn.

123 Dr Lizardo  Jun 9, 2014 5:50:58pm

re: #94 Killgore Trout

Cable networks should be forced to play this on a continuous loop for 7 days after a shooting
Charlie Brooker’s Newswipe 25/03/09
[Embedded content]

Video

A fair point.

The Port Arthur Massacre in Australia, perpetrated by Martin Bryant in 1996, was essentially a copycat of the Dunblane Massacre, which had taken place a couple of weeks earlier; apparently, Bryant had become obsessed with the non-stop, saturation coverage of the Dunblane Massacre and that seems to have served as the precipitating factor that set him off.

The problem of course is quite simple; if it bleeds, it leads. And tragedy means ratings, which in turn, means money. Lots and lots of money.

124 GeneJockey  Jun 9, 2014 5:51:34pm

re: #113 HappyWarrior

My point is I guess if I’m in say a supermarket orwhere ever these open carry fuckwads want to carry. How the hell am I supposed to know if it’s just some coward who likes to feel tough with is gun or the next Elliott Rodger/Alex Holmes/Jared Loughner etc. What I’m getting at is this “good guy with gun and bad guy with gun” stuff is simplistic as hell.

Consider the source - a bunch of folks who want the world to be simple, all black and white, no grays, no nuance.

The assholes who do the Open Carry shit pave the way for somebody or somebodies to “Open Carry” into a crowded public place where they’ll be accepted as Responsible Gun Owners Exercizing Their Rights, right up until they open fire and kill a bunch of people.

Is that really THAT hard to imagine?

125 wrenchwench  Jun 9, 2014 5:52:06pm

re: #114 Dark_Falcon

Maybe he though that, but law enforcement couldn’t reach that conclusion due to the “clutter” created by haters and posers. Its tough to figure out who’s dangerous and who’s just a mall ninja.

OK, but I don’t see any reason for you to dodge the conclusion, which I thought I saw in your #67.

126 Minor_L  Jun 9, 2014 5:52:39pm

re: #117 Shazam

Their behavior seems to me, at least in part, to be intended to intimate. They wouldn’t admit that, but it seems that they are saying, through their actions, “Just try to take my guns. See what happens. I’m armed to the teeth, as you can now see.”

(I’m talking specifically about the Open Carry Texas guys, but I realized your comment might have been more general.)

127 EPR-radar  Jun 9, 2014 5:52:53pm

re: #124 GeneJockey

Consider the source - a bunch of folks who want the world to be simple, all black and white, no grays, no nuance.

The assholes who do the Open Carry shit pave the way for somebody or somebodies to “Open Carry” into a crowded public place where they’ll be accepted as Responsible Gun Owners Exercizing Their Rights, right up until they open fire and kill a bunch of people.

Is that really THAT hard to imagine?

Not at all. The sequence of NRA press releases for such an event are probably already written out, with a few blanks left for date, location and body count.

128 Skip Intro  Jun 9, 2014 5:53:06pm

re: #87 Dr Lizardo

The only reason I can imagine the media is so deeply reluctant to pin the “domestic terrorist” label on the Millers is that simply have no desire to provoke the inevitable howls of rage from the RW’ers; thus, they chalk it up to something else, with a different moniker.

Advertising dollars. It’s that simple.

129 HappyWarrior  Jun 9, 2014 5:53:13pm

re: #124 GeneJockey

Consider the source - a bunch of folks who want the world to be simple, all black and white, no grays, no nuance.

The assholes who do the Open Carry shit pave the way for somebody or somebodies to “Open Carry” into a crowded public place where they’ll be accepted as Responsible Gun Owners Exercizing Their Rights, right up until they open fire and kill a bunch of people.

Is that really THAT hard to imagine?

If we ever get that world in our country, I become an ex-pat. I’ve got no issue with people who want guns at home for protection, hunting, collecting, or target shooting but if you need your gun visible and ready to fire when you’re getting a burrito at Chipotle or coffee at Starbucks, you’re creating a culture of paranoia and fear.

130 Romantic Heretic  Jun 9, 2014 5:53:24pm

re: #63 Charles Johnson

I don’t blame this psychologist that’s on CNN for trying to raise consciousness about mental disorders. But I continue to believe it’s incredibly wrong to apply the “insane” label to killers like these.

Pretty complicated actually. I’m certain people like these are basically psychopaths. They have trouble imagining others as people or empathizing with them.

But there is also what I term ‘information disease.’ Possibly these people were fed an information diet of the most poisonous type. All the racism and hatred of the formerly fringe Right was all they ever knew. It exacerbates their psychopathy to the point of psychosis.

Also possible that as teenagers, when as all teenagers do, they were desperately looking for an identity. Along came the batshit craziness of The Right and did the ‘power and glory (and victimization)’ seem like a wonderful thing and a perfect fit.

Bur I agree, insane is not the term I would use. Psychotic they might have been but they knew that by the standards of the society they lived in they were doing wrong.

131 Gus  Jun 9, 2014 5:54:06pm
132 Killgore Trout  Jun 9, 2014 5:54:09pm

re: #123 Dr Lizardo

The problem of course is quite simple; if it bleeds, it leads. And tragedy means ratings, which in turn, means money. Lots and lots of money.

…which helps to inspire more tragedies which means more ratings……

133 jaunte  Jun 9, 2014 5:54:51pm

re: #129 HappyWarrior

If we ever get that world in our country, I become an ex-pat. I’ve got no issue with people who want guns at home for protection, hunting, collecting, or target shooting but if you need your gun visible and ready to fire when you’re getting a burrito at Chipotle or coffee at Starbucks, you’re creating a culture of paranoia and fear.

And there’s a good chance you’ll drop it accidentally and shoot someone.

134 Charles Johnson  Jun 9, 2014 5:54:57pm

If MSNBC wanted to bring their network back to life, they’d re-hire Keith Olbermann.

He could be insufferable sometimes, and had a giant ego, but he brought a passion to his work that’s just not there now. Rachel Maddow still has moments of brilliance but the rest of the schedule is pretty vacant.

135 Skip Intro  Jun 9, 2014 5:55:37pm

re: #101 Romantic Heretic

To that jackass, always assume a gun is loaded, you dickwad.

Playing “point the gun” with a 3 year old? Dickwad hardly describes him.

NRA board member might.

136 GeneJockey  Jun 9, 2014 5:55:47pm

re: #131 Gus

[Embedded content]

Clearly a Liberal.
///

137 jaunte  Jun 9, 2014 5:55:48pm
138 HappyWarrior  Jun 9, 2014 5:55:52pm

re: #133 jaunte

And there’s a good chance you’ll drop it accidentally and shoot someone.

Was reading the other day about one of the Texas idiots leaving his in a toy section of a store. Way to go asshole.

139 EPR-radar  Jun 9, 2014 5:56:21pm

re: #130 Romantic Heretic

Pretty complicated actually. I’m certain people like these are basically psychopaths. They have trouble imagining others as people or empathizing with them.

But there is also what I term ‘information disease.’ Possibly these people were fed an information diet of the most poisonous type. All the racism and hatred of the formerly fringe Right was all they ever knew. It exacerbates their psychopathy to the point of psychosis.

Also possible that as teenagers, when as all teenagers do, they were desperately looking for an identity. Along came the batshit craziness of The Right and did the ‘power and glory (and victimization)’ seem like a wonderful thing and a perfect fit.

Bur I agree, insane is not the term I would use. Psychotic they might have been but they knew that by the standards of the society they lived in they were doing wrong.

Good points. IMO there’s a big difference between having a reasonable insanity defense if charged with a crime, and having a diagnosable mental illness.

The media tends to conflate these two very different things.

140 jaunte  Jun 9, 2014 5:56:23pm

Duck and cover, kids, just like Granddad.

141 SteveMcGazi  Jun 9, 2014 5:56:38pm

If one of those open carry meatheads came across somebody like me on the wrong day, there’s nothing they could do to keep that gun. Us nutters carry a lot of rage, almost like a continuous adrenaline rush. I wouldn’t dream of hurting anybody because I’m not about to make my problem somebody else’s, but I think I’m definitely in the minority. I still have this Pinocchio like fantasy that someday I’ll be a real person, and hurting somebody else (including me) will ruin it. It would also mean giving in to my voices, and I’ve fought too hard and too long to give up now.

142 Skip Intro  Jun 9, 2014 5:56:43pm

re: #119 Pie-onist Overlord

You’d think he could hire some web designers for that kinda dough.

He won’t allow anyone other than RimJob Jr. to see his precious 1990s code. Seriously.

143 Dr Lizardo  Jun 9, 2014 5:56:43pm

re: #131 Gus

[Embedded content]

That screed sounds like a typical post over at FR.

144 Gus  Jun 9, 2014 5:56:54pm

re: #136 GeneJockey

Clearly a Liberal.
///

Sounds like your average RWNJ.

145 GeneJockey  Jun 9, 2014 5:57:10pm

re: #129 HappyWarrior

If we ever get that world in our country, I become an ex-pat. I’ve got no issue with people who want guns at home for protection, hunting, collecting, or target shooting but if you need your gun visible and ready to fire when you’re getting a burrito at Chipotle or coffee at Starbucks, you’re creating a culture of paranoia and fear.

I’m more afraid of it becoming something no longer noteworthy, which is the point at which the massacre I described happens.

146 Targetpractice  Jun 9, 2014 5:57:17pm

re: #137 jaunte

[Embedded content]

Sad commentary on our society that, instead of finding ways to keep guns out of schools, we’re instead now putting work into protecting kids from the inevitable gun-wielding nutters.

147 Killgore Trout  Jun 9, 2014 5:57:28pm

Anyone know their Greek philosophy? I’m trying to remember a Greek parable or paradox. Plato, Socrates, one of those guys. It goes something like this: If you see two men running what’s the moral thing to do. Is one man being chased because he stole something? or is the man being chased by a robber. Who do you help?

148 klys  Jun 9, 2014 5:57:39pm

re: #137 jaunte

Discussed downstairs, was actually designed primarily for tornado protection.

Because building reinforced saferooms in public buildings takes too much money, and these totally won’t turn into giant sails but will instead protect children. Except not.

149 goddamnedfrank  Jun 9, 2014 5:58:30pm

re: #67 Dark_Falcon

Partially, but it needs to be noted that the great majority of ‘Sovreign Citizen’ types seek to avoid government authority or impede it with bogus legal proceedings. Those who outright attack the government are rare, and this asshole actually doesn’t fit their profile. This is because he doesn’t seem to have felt trapped and attacked so much as he felt aggrieved and nihilistic.

They all say the same shit about government, cops, and the courts, he just followed through.

150 sattv4u2  Jun 9, 2014 5:58:57pm

re: #147 Killgore Trout

Anyone know their Greek philosophy? I’m trying to remember a Greek parable or paradox. Plato, Socrates, one of those guys. It goes something like this: If you see two men running what’s the moral thing to do. Is one man being chased because he stole something? or is the man being chased by a robber. Who do you help?

There once was a girl from Nantucket

No,, wait ,, wrong philosophy

nevahmind!!

151 GeneJockey  Jun 9, 2014 5:59:05pm

re: #138 HappyWarrior

Was reading the other day about one of the Texas idiots leaving his in a toy section of a store. Way to go asshole.

Yeah. How many of us have left behind a phone, or keys, or sunglasses - whatever. You’re carrying something and only have two hands. You put it down for a moment to pick up something else. Ten minutes later, you look for it and you don’t have it. AFAIK, nobody’s been killed with a pair of sunglasses of a phone they found lying around.

152 Shazam  Jun 9, 2014 5:59:17pm

re: #126 Minor_L

Absolutely they’re trying to make a statement. There’s literally no other reason to walk around with a gun if you’re not a cop. But to them, the fact that they haven’t shot the place up is proof that they’re the good guys and you should just chill out. It’s the same mindset of someone who fancies themselves a neighborhood watchman expecting everyone else to just know they’re not a nutjob that might possibly harm them.

153 Killgore Trout  Jun 9, 2014 5:59:21pm

re: #134 Charles Johnson

If MSNBC wanted to bring their network back to life, they’d re-hire Keith Olbermann.

He could be insufferable sometimes, and had a giant ego, but he brought a passion to his work that’s just not there now. Rachel Maddow still has moments of brilliance but the rest of the schedule is pretty vacant.

It must be a money thing. It’s not like there’s a shortage of entertaining and bombastic liberals they could hire but it’s a cheap network and their business model is spending as little as possible on talent not to mention actual news gathering.

154 EPR-radar  Jun 9, 2014 5:59:30pm

re: #148 klys

Discussed downstairs, was actually designed primarily for tornado protection.

Because building reinforced saferooms in public buildings takes too much money, and these totally won’t turn into giant sails but will instead protect children. Except not.

Wingnut god seems to have a problem with target selection for his tornadoes, since they’re mostly in red states.

155 jaunte  Jun 9, 2014 5:59:31pm

re: #148 klys

It seems like they would easily blow away in a high wind.

156 Gus  Jun 9, 2014 6:00:03pm
157 Killgore Trout  Jun 9, 2014 6:00:42pm

re: #150 sattv4u2

There once was a girl from Nantucket

No,, wait ,, wrong philosophy

nevahmind!!

Pliny of Limerick

158 jaunte  Jun 9, 2014 6:00:43pm

re: #156 Gus

So he had a camo outfit too.

159 SteveMcGazi  Jun 9, 2014 6:00:51pm

I think those things might actually have merit if you put straps on them so you could wear it like a backpack while you run away from the sound of the gunfire.

160 EPR-radar  Jun 9, 2014 6:01:58pm

re: #159 SteveMcGazi

I think those things might actually have merit if you put straps on them so you could wear it like a backpack while you run away from the sound of the gunfire.

Why screw around? Issue bullet proof vests to all school children. //

161 Charles Johnson  Jun 9, 2014 6:02:21pm

Some people I really feel sorry for in the Vegas terror attack: the family of Joseph Wilcox, the guy with a CCW permit who thought he should confront Jerad Miller because he was one of the good guys with a gun.

162 GeneJockey  Jun 9, 2014 6:02:22pm

re: #156 Gus

[Embedded content]

That would be a creepy memory. I bet he didn’t come across as a babbling nutcase, either.

163 Bubblehead II  Jun 9, 2014 6:02:40pm

Night Lizards. Sleep well.

164 SteveMcGazi  Jun 9, 2014 6:02:44pm

re: #160 EPR-radar

Why screw around? Issue bullet proof vests to all school children. //

Look ma, our uniforms are made of Kevlar!

165 HappyWarrior  Jun 9, 2014 6:02:49pm

re: #151 GeneJockey

Yeah. How many of us have left behind a phone, or keys, or sunglasses - whatever. You’re carrying something and only have two hands. You put it down for a moment to pick up something else. Ten minutes later, you look for it and you don’t have it. AFAIK, nobody’s been killed with a pair of sunglasses of a phone they found lying around.

Yeah. I mean people misplace keys, credit cards, etc all the time. Not a stretch at all to think that something like this could and did happen with a gun. It’s a good thing that a child didn’t pick it up and try to play with it.

166 Dr Lizardo  Jun 9, 2014 6:03:06pm

re: #132 Killgore Trout

…which helps to inspire more tragedies which means more ratings……

Yep. I can’t help but wonder how much longer it’ll be before we hear of the next mass shooting incident? Today? Maybe later tomorrow or even the day after? Maybe this weekend perhaps?

Call me cynical, but I figure it’s not too far off. And heaven only knows the reasons for the next one - pissed off at co-workers. Angry at women. Angry at minorities. Angry at the government.

If this is how it’s going to be in the United States - that people are going to go out and blow away not only the objects of their particular rage, but everyone else who happens to get in the way, or hell…..anyone - then we might as rename the USA to the United Failed States of America, or perhaps New Somalia.

When mass murder becomes a daily occurrence, that’s pretty much game over from a societal point of view.

167 Skip Intro  Jun 9, 2014 6:03:17pm

re: #134 Charles Johnson

If MSNBC wanted to bring their network back to life, they’d re-hire Keith Olbermann.

He could be insufferable sometimes, and had a giant ego, but he brought a passion to his work that’s just not there now. Rachel Maddow still has moments of brilliance but the rest of the schedule is pretty vacant.

I think the days of partisan tv media are over - except for Fox. The last time I watched MSNBC was during the 2012 pres election season. After that, never.

168 Shazam  Jun 9, 2014 6:03:35pm

re: #137 jaunte

Seems like a company could make a killing with bulletproof lockers. When you hear gunshots, hop inside. The police will come get you out when it’s all over.

169 klys  Jun 9, 2014 6:04:11pm

re: #155 jaunte

It seems like they would easily blow away in a high wind.

Possibly with small children attached.

170 Gus  Jun 9, 2014 6:04:35pm

re: #158 jaunte

So he had a camo outfit too.

Not sure if that’s him yet.

171 GeneJockey  Jun 9, 2014 6:05:01pm

re: #166 Dr Lizardo

Yep. I can’t help but wonder how much longer it’ll be before we hear of the next mass shooting incident? Today? Maybe later tomorrow or even the day after? Maybe this weekend perhaps?

Call me cynical, but I figure it’s not too far off. And heaven only knows the reasons for the next one - pissed off at co-workers. Angry at women. Angry at minorities. Angry at the government.

If this is how it’s going to be in the United States - that people are going to go out and blow away not only the objects of their particular rage, but everyone else who happens to get in the way, or hell…..anyone - then we might as rename the USA to the United Failed States of America, or perhaps New Somalia.

When mass murder becomes a daily occurrence, that’s pretty much game over from a societal point of view.

The gun is kind of a slow motion Pandora’s box.

172 goddamnedfrank  Jun 9, 2014 6:05:04pm

re: #161 Charles Johnson

Some people I really feel sorry for in the Vegas terror attack: the family of Joseph Wilcox, the guy with a CCW permit who thought he should confront Jerad Miller because he was one of the good guys with a gun.

To be fair to the guy tag team spree killings are huge outliers, especially involving female accomplices.

173 GeneJockey  Jun 9, 2014 6:05:46pm

re: #158 jaunte

So he had a camo outfit too.

Yeah, but hell - so do I. Better camo, too.

174 Targetpractice  Jun 9, 2014 6:05:55pm

re: #161 Charles Johnson

Some people I really feel sorry for in the Vegas terror attack: the family of Joseph Wilcox, the guy with a CCW permit who thought he should confront Jerad Miller because he was one of the good guys with a gun.

I haven’t kept up with this story today. Did he actually make any difference in the whole matter or just end up another statistic instead?

175 Gus  Jun 9, 2014 6:06:03pm

Indeed it is.

176 Killgore Trout  Jun 9, 2014 6:06:32pm

re: #166 Dr Lizardo

Yep. I can’t help but wonder how much longer it’ll be before we hear of the next mass shooting incident? Today? Maybe later tomorrow or even the day after? Maybe this weekend perhaps?

Call me cynical, but I figure it’s not too far off. And heaven only knows the reasons for the next one - pissed off at co-workers. Angry at women. Angry at minorities. Angry at the government.

If this is how it’s going to be in the United States - that people are going to go out and blow away not only the objects of their particular rage, but everyone else who happens to get in the way, or hell…..anyone - then we might as rename the USA to the United Failed States of America, or perhaps New Somalia.

When mass murder becomes a daily occurrence, that’s pretty much game over from a societal point of view.

Even these killers in Vegas mentioned the wanted to have the “next Columbine massacre”. The shelf life on these media frenzies can be quite long.

177 Dark_Falcon  Jun 9, 2014 6:06:52pm

re: #137 jaunte

[Embedded content]

Those might be useful for setting up a protected fighting position or panic room in advance. I could see law enforcement applications for that (such as use for evacuating people from an area where a ‘active shooter’ is attacking) as well as ‘quickie’ fighting position creation for the military.

178 HappyWarrior  Jun 9, 2014 6:07:34pm

Everyone wants to be famous for all the wrong reasons.

179 EPR-radar  Jun 9, 2014 6:07:35pm

re: #174 Targetpractice

I haven’t kept up with this story today. Did he actually make any difference in the whole matter or just end up another statistic instead?

As I understand it, the CCW guy ended up being fatally shot in the back by the wife. Could have played out differently if there was only one shooter.

180 Charles Johnson  Jun 9, 2014 6:08:21pm

re: #172 goddamnedfrank

To be fair to the guy tag team spree killings are huge outliers, especially involving female accomplices.

I know. But that’s why we have police forces trained to handle situations like this. CCW licenses give people a false sense of power, and this is a prime example of it.

181 Romantic Heretic  Jun 9, 2014 6:08:30pm

re: #108 HappyWarrior

Whose words are those? I’ve seen that quote before. That quote though does get at why I’ve seen many right wingers defending many fascist regimes especially ones like the Pinochet one. Sometimes, I think their only real beef with communist regimes is not the lack of human rights but rather the economics only. Frankly, this was and still is my big beef with many US foreign policy decisions during the Cold War whee being anti-communist meant more than having respect for human rights.

The writer is John Ralston Saul and the specific quote is from my favourite book by him, The Doubter’s Companion: A Dictionary of Aggressive Common Sense.

It’s a book I read whenever I feel the need to have my compass reset.

182 Dr Lizardo  Jun 9, 2014 6:09:13pm

re: #176 Killgore Trout

Even these killers in Vegas mentioned the wanted to have the “next Columbine massacre”. The shelf life on these media frenzies can be quite long.

I still recall the coverage in the wake of the Columbine Massacre - it seemed to last for forever and a day; I thought it would never stop. It was to the point you’d think that absolutely nothing else whatsoever had happened anywhere else in the world.

183 Targetpractice  Jun 9, 2014 6:09:27pm

re: #179 EPR-radar

As I understand it, the CCW guy ended up being fatally shot in the back by the wife. Could have played out differently if there was only one shooter.

I’ve been out for most of the day, but I thought somebody had said he’d managed to wound one of the Millers, which is what forced them into committing suicide. Has that since been debunked?

184 HappyWarrior  Jun 9, 2014 6:09:30pm

re: #181 Romantic Heretic

The writer is John Ralston Saul and the specific quote is from my favourite book by him, The Doubter’s Companion: A Dictionary of Aggressive Common Sense.

It’s a book I read whenever I feel the need to have my compass reset.

Thanks.

185 jaunte  Jun 9, 2014 6:10:06pm

re: #182 Dr Lizardo

Lately I’ve been getting that sense from CNN and Fox on the Bergdahl story.

186 sattv4u2  Jun 9, 2014 6:10:09pm

re: #174 Targetpractice

I haven’t kept up with this story today. Did he actually make any difference in the whole matter or just end up another statistic instead?

No way to tell really. Did the CCW carrier prevent the couple from opening fire on MORE people at the entrance, taking all their focus on just him instead because he posed a threat, or were they going in to the Wal mart for cover and complete their suicide pact not planning on killing any civilians, having their blood lust satiated after killing the two cops

187 EPR-radar  Jun 9, 2014 6:11:57pm

re: #183 Targetpractice

I’ve been out for most of the day, but I thought somebody had said he’d managed to wound one of the Millers, which is what forced them into committing suicide. Has that since been debunked?

According to the linked article at the OP, Wilcox was killed without firing a shot according to a police statement.

188 Skip Intro  Jun 9, 2014 6:12:05pm

re: #166 Dr Lizardo

Yep. I can’t help but wonder how much longer it’ll be before we hear of the next mass shooting incident? Today? Maybe later tomorrow or even the day after? Maybe this weekend perhaps?

So far this year it’s been less than every other day.

189 Gus  Jun 9, 2014 6:12:22pm
190 Killgore Trout  Jun 9, 2014 6:12:30pm

re: #167 Skip Intro

I think the days of partisan tv media are over - except for Fox. The last time I watched MSNBC was during the 2012 pres election season. After that, never.

I do think there’s been a bit of public burn out on partisan anger and hate. There’s still a market for partisan news but I think there’s an opening for some new business models. Think about what’s been going on the web the past couple years. When was the last time a new partisan blog made a big splash? Breitbart is the most recent I can think of. The recent anticipated launches have been things like Vox and 538. Both kind of flopped but they’re targeting a market that exists and is undeserved.

191 Targetpractice  Jun 9, 2014 6:12:46pm

re: #187 EPR-radar

According to the linked article at the OP, Wilcox was killed without firing a shot based on a police statement.

So in other words, the “good guy with a gun” only served a purpose as a distraction. That gun made no difference whatsoever. Thanks.

192 Dark_Falcon  Jun 9, 2014 6:12:47pm

re: #161 Charles Johnson

Some people I really feel sorry for in the Vegas terror attack: the family of Joseph Wilcox, the guy with a CCW permit who thought he should confront Jerad Miller because he was one of the good guys with a gun.

Don’t feel sorry for them, as their kinsman died trying to save others from a murderous psychopath. Even though he did not stop the scumbag, he died doing the right thing for the right reason. Such a person should be mourned, but instead of being pitied they should be honored. Joseph Wilcox died as one of the best kinds of men and his family should be proud of him.

193 jaunte  Jun 9, 2014 6:13:11pm

Chandler AZ; Man relaxes because the gun was pink.
azfamily.com

194 HappyWarrior  Jun 9, 2014 6:13:26pm

re: #187 EPR-radar

According to the linked article at the OP, Wilcox was killed without firing a shot based on a police statement.

I think that shows you how things get simplified in the debate. I mean it sounds great on paper. Someone there to save the day and be a hero. And it probably has happened before but at the same time, I agree with Charles’ assessment that it does create a false sense of power.

195 Gus  Jun 9, 2014 6:13:33pm

Boom!

196 Charles Johnson  Jun 9, 2014 6:13:51pm

When you have a lot of armed people in a situation like this, what you really have is a recipe for disaster.

I really can’t believe parts of this country are actually trying to go back to some fantasy version of the Old West in which the good guys shoot the bad guys and everything’s fine. What the hell is wrong with us?

197 Skip Intro  Jun 9, 2014 6:14:00pm

re: #189 Gus

Anybody seen any video of Hannity interviewing him?

198 SteveMcGazi  Jun 9, 2014 6:14:09pm

re: #192 Dark_Falcon

Don’t feel sorry for them, as their kinsman died trying to save others from a murderous psychopath. Even though he did not stop the scumbag, he died doing the right thing for the right reason. Such a person should be mourned, but instead of being pitied they should be honored. Joseph Wilcox died as one of the best kinds of men and his family should be proud of him.

The man is dead. What good is honoring him going to do?

199 Romantic Heretic  Jun 9, 2014 6:14:10pm

re: #139 EPR-radar

Good points. IMO there’s a big difference between having a reasonable insanity defense if charged with a crime, and having a diagnosable mental illness.

The media tends to conflate these two very different things.

As somebody who is mentally ill I am acutely aware of how most of ‘the normals’ regard me. My depression is indistinguishable from homicidal psychosis in their minds.

200 Dark_Falcon  Jun 9, 2014 6:14:37pm

re: #191 Targetpractice

So in other words, the “good guy with a gun” only served a purpose as a distraction. That gun made no difference whatsoever. Thanks.

If he distracted those dirtbags and so let others escape, then he surely made a difference.

201 Dr Lizardo  Jun 9, 2014 6:15:25pm

re: #197 Skip Intro

Anybody seen any video of Hannity interviewing him?

If there is, you know damned well Hannity and his staff are lookin’ all over the intertubes so they can delete it ASAP.

202 Dark_Falcon  Jun 9, 2014 6:15:39pm

re: #198 SteveMcGazi

The man is dead. What good is honoring him going to do?

What good does honoring a fallen soldier who died saving others do?

/rhetorical

203 Charles Johnson  Jun 9, 2014 6:16:03pm
204 Targetpractice  Jun 9, 2014 6:16:31pm

re: #200 Dark_Falcon

If he distracted those dirtbags and so let others escape, then he surely made a difference.

Yes, he’s dead and that’s all there is to it. If he hadn’t been carrying a gun, he might still be drawing breath and the two still very likely would be dead. We’ll never be able to say with any authority that he made a damned bit of a difference that day.

205 HappyWarrior  Jun 9, 2014 6:16:42pm

re: #201 Dr Lizardo

If there is, you know damned well Hannity and his staff are lookin’ all over the intertubes so they can delete it ASAP.

Gotta assume that Jimmy Carter’s grandson is on the case then heh.

206 SteveMcGazi  Jun 9, 2014 6:17:06pm

Maybe the man shouldn’t be dead in the first place, like most fallen soldiers. I’m sure each and every last one of them would rather have survived their wars.

207 HappyWarrior  Jun 9, 2014 6:17:21pm

You know, it sounds good until you realize that we can’t click restart or reload here. We’re talking about actual breathing life.

208 Dr Lizardo  Jun 9, 2014 6:18:55pm

re: #203 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

I’ve said before I’m surprised there hasn’t been another OKC bombing yet; the level of rhetoric from the far-right exceeds that which was floating around before that atrocity.

Perhaps that’s the next step. The next logical escalation for the wingnuts. And I’m sure that while many of them would publicly condemn it, privately, they’d be high-fiving each other.

209 Dark_Falcon  Jun 9, 2014 6:19:26pm

Insight that kind of scares me: This rampage might have been even worse had Miller been using that Kalashnikov he was carrying at the Bundy Ranch.

210 Gus  Jun 9, 2014 6:19:52pm
211 Targetpractice  Jun 9, 2014 6:20:22pm

re: #210 Gus

[Embedded content]

Certainly seems welcome for a guy who was turned away for being a felon.

212 HappyWarrior  Jun 9, 2014 6:20:33pm

re: #210 Gus

[Embedded content]

Only liberals appreciate the value of a nutritious breakfast.//

213 jaunte  Jun 9, 2014 6:20:33pm

re: #210 Gus

214 Skip Intro  Jun 9, 2014 6:21:15pm

re: #203 Charles Johnson

All because a black guy got elected president.

215 HappyWarrior  Jun 9, 2014 6:22:58pm

re: #214 Skip Intro

All because a black guy got elected president.

Don’t even want to think about how these bastards are going react if we elect a woman or mass freakout mode a black woman.

216 Dr Lizardo  Jun 9, 2014 6:23:32pm

And with that, good night Lizards.

217 dog philosopher  Jun 9, 2014 6:24:55pm

Hillary Clinton Talks of Benghazi’s Personal Toll

why can’t i have a personal troll?

218 EPR-radar  Jun 9, 2014 6:25:29pm

re: #213 jaunte

Bingo. The most powerful form of propaganda is simply selecting which events to consider and which to ignore.

219 Dark_Falcon  Jun 9, 2014 6:25:29pm

re: #204 Targetpractice

Yes, he’s dead and that’s all there is to it. If he hadn’t been carrying a gun, he might still be drawing breath and the two still very likely would be dead. We’ll never be able to say with any authority that he made a damned bit of a difference that day.

And if he hadn’t died, two to four others might have died instead. It’s not a safe world, ultimately, and all decent people can do is to do their best stop evil when they find themselves confronted by it.

220 jaunte  Jun 9, 2014 6:26:08pm

Was this the first mass shooting of the year in which all the victims were armed?

221 Dark_Falcon  Jun 9, 2014 6:27:13pm

re: #220 jaunte

Was this the first mass shooting of the year in which all the victims were armed?

No, that distinction would go to the shitbird who killed three RCMP officers a week ago.

222 Targetpractice  Jun 9, 2014 6:27:43pm

re: #219 Dark_Falcon

And if he hadn’t died, two to four others might have died instead. It’s not a safe world, ultimately, and all decent people can do is to do their best stop evil when they find themselves confronted by it.

“Might” being the operative word. We’ll never know if his death saved lives or not. Which is why I have a hard time dubbing him a “hero” or suggesting his death was a “sacrifice” rather than the real-world intrusion on the illusion of guns as magic talismans.

223 Skip Intro  Jun 9, 2014 6:27:52pm

re: #209 Dark_Falcon

Insight that kind of scares me: This rampage might have been even worse had Miller been using that Kalashnikov he was carrying at the Bundy Ranch.

Which raises the question of where did he get that, being a convicted felon and all.

224 Gus  Jun 9, 2014 6:27:58pm
225 goddamnedfrank  Jun 9, 2014 6:28:17pm

re: #180 Charles Johnson

I know. But that’s why we have police forces trained to handle situations like this. CCW licenses give people a false sense of power, and this is a prime example of it.

CCW does seem to come with a whole bunch of liabilities. You’re either looking to use lethal force over property, which is fucked up, or you’re looking for that once in a million dare to be great situation.

One thing I learned a long time ago from cop coworkers and a psych nurse friend, people who deal with physical combatants frequently, is that the guy who turns to confront you is a lot easier to deal with than the guy who’s willing to do anything to get away when it’s your job to catch them.

The guy who turns to confront and fight is of a divided mind, has both self preservation and fighting instincts competing for his adrenaline limited attention span. He’s much easier to flank, much easier to outthink because his conscious and subconscious is divided, he’s processing information in two fundamentally different modes.

The guy who only wants to get away is of one mind, flight. He’s totally dedicated in his purpose and doesn’t give one shit about you. He’s committed to one clear plan of action, getting the fuck away. He’s much more likely to actually hurt you if he thinks he has to to get away, and he’s not going to hesitate or be elegant about it. He may bite, he may go for the eyes. If he thinks he’s cornered he will hide and ambush. These guys rarely ever kill because their motive is escape, but they fuck people up all the time. You never want to deal with this type of guy one on one.

226 EPR-radar  Jun 9, 2014 6:28:17pm

re: #220 jaunte

Was this the first mass shooting of the year in which all the victims were armed?

Seems likely. On a pedantic note, if the two perps are not counted as victims, the death toll is 3 which is below the threshold of 4 sometimes used to officially define a mass shooting.

So I suppose we’ll have to wait a few more days for the next mass shooting.

227 goddamnedfrank  Jun 9, 2014 6:30:11pm

re: #186 sattv4u2

No way to tell really. Did the CCW carrier prevent the couple from opening fire on MORE people at the entrance, taking all their focus on just him instead because he posed a threat, or were they going in to the Wal mart for cover and complete their suicide pact not planning on killing any civilians, having their blood lust satiated after killing the two cops

No. Miller walked in and fired a shot at the ceiling, mentioning some shit about a revolution. They seem to have had a hard on for cops and other authority figures, weren’t there to hunt the people of Walmart. Sad to say but this CCW holder seems to have accomplished little beyond his own death.

228 Skip Intro  Jun 9, 2014 6:33:56pm

re: #227 goddamnedfrank

Too many people in this country mistake movies and tv for reality.

As hard as it is to believe, when dozens of bad guys are firing thousands of rounds at you with fully automatic weapons, you probably won’t be able to kill them all with your handgun.

229 sattv4u2  Jun 9, 2014 6:34:39pm

re: #227 goddamnedfrank

No. Miller walked in and fired a shot at the ceiling, mentioning some shit about a revolution. They seem to have had a hard on for cops and other authority figures, weren’t there to hunt the people of Walmart. Sad to say but this CCW holder seems to have accomplished little beyond his own death.

Again, no way to tell. Yes, their target WAS an authority figure(s), but whose to say once they got in to Wal Mart they decided that the manager was an ‘authority figure”, or someone who yelled at them “HEY,, WHAT ARE YOU DOING”,,, or anything/ anyone else that set them off.

So again, no, there’s no way of telling if the CCW prevented others from being killed or wouldn’t have gotten killed had he not drawn.

230 goddamnedfrank  Jun 9, 2014 6:34:56pm

re: #223 Skip Intro

Which raises the question of where did he get that, being a convicted felon and all.

It’s Nevada. They’d deliver firearms in the drinking water if it wasn’t physically impossible.

231 Dark_Falcon  Jun 9, 2014 6:37:24pm

re: #222 Targetpractice

“Might” being the operative word. We’ll never know if his death saved lives or not. Which is why I have a hard time dubbing him a “hero” or suggesting his death was a “sacrifice” rather than the real-world intrusion on the illusion of guns as magic talismans.

You don’t have to think him a hero to regard him as a good man who died doing the right thing, given the situation he found himself in. Don’t get so deep into dislike for firearms that you see Joseph Wilcox as pathetic or some sort of fool. That way lies Code Pink and ANSWER.

232 sattv4u2  Jun 9, 2014 6:39:02pm

re: #230 goddamnedfrank

It’s Nevada. They’d deliver firearms in the drinking water if it wasn’t physically impossible.

In the state of Nevada, you can visit any firearms dealership and buy a gun without being required to have a gun permit or license. Upon visiting the dealership, you will be asked to provide proof of identity and complete a form with personal information to be used in a background check. The dealer will then perform the background check as part of the Brady Point of Sale (POS) program to determine if you are eligible by law to buy a gun. After passing the background check, you can then buy your gun; however, depending on where you reside in Nevada, you may be subject to a 72-hour waiting period until you can claim the gun from the dealership

233 urbanmeemaw  Jun 9, 2014 6:39:05pm

re: #6 Kid A

I believe someone on earlier thread referred to them as “Patriots”. Yeah, that’s good. “Patriots”. If they are hued they of course are “thugs” and “terrorists”.

234 sattv4u2  Jun 9, 2014 6:40:28pm

re: #230 goddamnedfrank

The dealer will then perform the background check as part of the Brady Point of Sale (POS) program to determine if you are eligible by law to buy a gun. After passing the background check, you can then buy your gun

I’m not sure if the background check is run by the state or a private company (companies) however

235 Lancelot Link  Jun 9, 2014 6:40:53pm

re: #226 EPR-radar

On a pedantic note, if the two perps are not counted as victims, the death toll is 3 which is below the threshold of 4 sometimes used to officially define a mass shooting.

So I suppose we’ll have to wait a few more days for the next mass shooting.

In that case, Sunday’s mass shooting took place in Florida, where a man shot his wife, three daughters and himself.

236 Dark_Falcon  Jun 9, 2014 6:41:17pm

re: #223 Skip Intro

Which raises the question of where did he get that, being a convicted felon and all.

First thought on that score: Was Amanda Miller a convicted felon?

237 Skip Intro  Jun 9, 2014 6:41:59pm

re: #232 sattv4u2

Or he could just have had his wife or a fellow “patriot” buy them for him.

BTW, I’ve read that Las Vegas LE are concerned that the armed drifters from Bundyville may be moving into the outskirts of the city.

This is what you get when the government backs down from a confrontation with terrorists.

238 sattv4u2  Jun 9, 2014 6:42:14pm

re: #235 Lancelot Link

In that case, Sunday’s mass shooting took place in Florida, where a man shot his wife, three daughters and himself.

Wish he had reversed the order!

239 HappyWarrior  Jun 9, 2014 6:42:34pm

There were screenshots of him earlier asking for a gun on Facebook.

240 Rightwingconspirator  Jun 9, 2014 6:42:46pm

re: #228 Skip Intro

Too many people in this country mistake movies and tv for reality.

As hard as it is to believe, when dozens of bad guys are firing thousands of rounds at you with fully automatic weapons, you probably won’t be able to kill them all with your handgun.

Good thing that has absolutely nothing to do with the guy that had the balls to step up.

241 urbanmeemaw  Jun 9, 2014 6:42:51pm

re: #33 Feline Fearless Leader

I believe they showed All About Eve last night. One of my favorite movies.

242 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 9, 2014 6:43:02pm

re: #219 Dark_Falcon

And if he hadn’t died, two to four others might have died instead.

First of all:

It’s not binary. You can honor him for the instincts to protect others while mourning his senseless loss. If carrying around a gun gave him the idea he had a responsibility in this situation that’s a minor tragedy in the background of this larger one.

243 Skip Intro  Jun 9, 2014 6:43:04pm

re: #239 HappyWarrior

There were screenshots of him earlier asking for a gun on Facebook.

Facebook allows that?

244 Dark_Falcon  Jun 9, 2014 6:43:33pm

re: #234 sattv4u2

The dealer will then perform the background check as part of the Brady Point of Sale (POS) program to determine if you are eligible by law to buy a gun. After passing the background check, you can then buy your gun

I’m not sure if the background check is run by the state or a private company (companies) however

The National Instant Check System (NICS) is run by the FBI.

245 Skip Intro  Jun 9, 2014 6:44:06pm

re: #240 Rightwingconspirator

Good thing that has absolutely nothing to do with the guy that had the balls to step up.

And get killed? Nope, nothing at all.

246 HappyWarrior  Jun 9, 2014 6:44:13pm

re: #243 Skip Intro

Facebook allows that?

I think it was one of those “Does anyone have a gun I can use, need it to protect against tyranny” type of spiels.

247 Dark_Falcon  Jun 9, 2014 6:44:16pm

BBL

248 EPR-radar  Jun 9, 2014 6:44:25pm

re: #237 Skip Intro

Or he could just have had his wife or a fellow “patriot” buy them for him.

BTW, I’ve read that Las Vegas LE are concerned that the armed drifters from Bundyville may be moving into the outskirts of the city.

This is what you get when the government backs down from a confrontation with terrorists.

Too true. I can see backing away from the initial confrontation at the ranch, since the Army had (imprudently) not been mobilized then, but there really needs to be a follow up to clean out this nest of vipers.

249 Targetpractice  Jun 9, 2014 6:44:34pm

re: #231 Dark_Falcon

You don’t have to think him a hero to regard him as a good man who died doing the right thing, given the situation he found himself in. Don’t get so deep into dislike for firearms that you see Joseph Wilcox as pathetic or some sort of fool. That way lies Code Pink and ANSWER.

Dark, the “right thing” was to protect himself, not others. If he didn’t have to fight, then the “right thing” was to run. That’s what we’re told guns are for, self-defense, not playing hero.

250 goddamnedfrank  Jun 9, 2014 6:44:36pm

re: #232 sattv4u2

In the state of Nevada, you can visit any firearms dealership and buy a gun without being required to have a gun permit or license. Upon visiting the dealership, you will be asked to provide proof of identity and complete a form with personal information to be used in a background check. The dealer will then perform the background check as part of the Brady Point of Sale (POS) program to determine if you are eligible by law to buy a gun. After passing the background check, you can then buy your gun; however, depending on where you reside in Nevada, you may be subject to a 72-hour waiting period until you can claim the gun from the dealership

Nevada has no requirement for private party transfers to go through an FFL. It’s a cash and carry state for face to face transactions. You can answer an ad on Armslist, meet some random stranger at a Starbucks parking lot and buy a handgun or twelve from the back of their van.

251 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 9, 2014 6:45:18pm

re: #231 Dark_Falcon

It may have been foolish of him to confront the guy. I don’t know; it probably was, I doubt many cops would say that’s what they’d like a civilian to do. But foolishness and bravery go together a lot. It’s like a civilian going into a burning building to rescue someone: it’s undeniably brave, and foolish as hell. I wouldn’t judge anyone who did that badly, even if I think they shouldn’t do it.

252 dog philosopher  Jun 9, 2014 6:45:46pm

background checks

mine was photoshopped

253 sattv4u2  Jun 9, 2014 6:48:04pm

re: #250 goddamnedfrank

Nevada has no requirement for private party transfers to go through an FFL. It’s a cash and carry state for face to face transactions. You can answer an ad on Armslist, meet some random stranger at a Starbucks parking lot and buy a handgun or twelve from the back of their van.

Thats anywhere!

I’m referring to legal purchases. You’re original post stating It’s Nevada. They’d deliver firearms in the drinking water if it wasn’t physically impossible.

254 Rightwingconspirator  Jun 9, 2014 6:48:05pm

re: #242 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

First of all:

It’s not binary. You can honor him for the instincts to protect others while mourning his senseless loss. If carrying around a gun gave him the idea he had a responsibility in this situation that’s a minor tragedy in the background of this larger one.

We have no evidence that is what was in his mind. The CCW critics seem to view him with more suspicion than an unarmed guy trying to do the same. He may have just thought he had the ability to stop a killer, and failed in a worthy effort. The law is very clear about the average citizens permission to stop a violent felony in progress with force.

255 Decatur Deb  Jun 9, 2014 6:48:18pm

re: #141 SteveMcGazi

If one of those open carry meatheads came across somebody like me on the wrong day, there’s nothing they could do to keep that gun. Us nutters carry a lot of rage, almost like a continuous adrenaline rush. I wouldn’t dream of hurting anybody because I’m not about to make my problem somebody else’s, but I think I’m definitely in the minority. I still have this Pinocchio like fantasy that someday I’ll be a real person, and hurting somebody else (including me) will ruin it. It would also mean giving in to my voices, and I’ve fought too hard and too long to give up now.

Because you’re medical, you should have a good idea of the resources available to you. What is the next avenue of repair? There’s always a Plan B,C, or D.

256 sattv4u2  Jun 9, 2014 6:48:25pm

and on that note, the long quiet drive home beckons

257 goddamnedfrank  Jun 9, 2014 6:48:31pm

re: #236 Dark_Falcon

First thought on that score: Was Amanda Miller a convicted felon?

Let’s assume she wasn’t. Is there a compelling public safety argument for allowing people who cohabitate with felons to own handguns? It’s one of the more abusable loopholes we have.

258 Targetpractice  Jun 9, 2014 6:49:58pm

re: #257 goddamnedfrank

Let’s assume she wasn’t. Is there a compelling public safety argument for allowing people who cohabitate with felons to own handguns? It’s one of the more abusable loopholes we have.

IIRC, there was a story last year of a fellow who shot up a barbershop…with his girlfriend’s gun. After he’d had his taken away when he was convicted of a felony and sentenced to jail time.

259 Skip Intro  Jun 9, 2014 6:50:03pm

re: #257 goddamnedfrank

Let’s assume she wasn’t. Is there a compelling public safety argument for allowing people who cohabitate with felons to own handguns? It’s one of the more abusable loopholes we have.

I’m sure the NRA has made sure that there’s no way for a gun dealer to run that kind of crosscheck, even if they wanted to.

260 goddamnedfrank  Jun 9, 2014 6:50:41pm

re: #253 sattv4u2

Thats anywhere!

No, it isn’t. That’s not California, Colorado, Connecticut, Illinois, New York, Oregon, Rhode Island, Hawaii, Maryland, New Jersey, Pennsylvania.

It’s also insane.

261 Decatur Deb  Jun 9, 2014 6:51:00pm

re: #254 Rightwingconspirator

We have no evidence that is what was in his mind. The CCW critics seem to view him with more suspicion than an unarmed guy trying to do the same. He may have just thought he had the ability to stop a killer, and failed in a worthy effort. The law is very clear about the average citizens permission to stop a violent felony in progress with force.

At best he was an ‘advanced amateur’. These clowns just went through two pros. It’s always going to tend that way because the bad guy has the initiative.

262 Charles Johnson  Jun 9, 2014 6:51:46pm

re: #251 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

It may have been foolish of him to confront the guy. I don’t know; it probably was, I doubt many cops would say that’s what they’d like a civilian to do. But foolishness and bravery go together a lot. It’s like a civilian going into a burning building to rescue someone: it’s undeniably brave, and foolish as hell. I wouldn’t judge anyone who did that badly, even if I think they shouldn’t do it.

I think we need to start getting the message out that this is the wrong thing to do. Because it is. This guy may have thought he was doing the right thing, but he wasn’t trained or prepared for what he was facing, and it got him killed.

The concealed weapon gave him a false sense of competence.

263 sattv4u2  Jun 9, 2014 6:53:40pm

re: #260 goddamnedfrank

When I stated “thats anywhere” I was referring to you stating meet some random stranger at a Starbucks parking lot and buy a handgun or twelve from the back of their van.

umm,,, yeah,,, thats anywhere!

264 Rightwingconspirator  Jun 9, 2014 6:54:08pm

re: #249 Targetpractice

Dark, the “right thing” was to protect himself, not others. If he didn’t have to fight, then the “right thing” was to run. That’s what we’re told guns are for, self-defense, not playing hero.

Yes, this is so. But let’s not say “playing hero”. The law and a certain morality gives us room to step up. Maybe to confront a rapist in the act, maybe a shooter scenario.

There are crimes where i would try if I thought I could. Especially if children were at immediate risk.

265 allegro  Jun 9, 2014 6:55:07pm

re: #262 Charles Johnson

I think we need to start getting the message out that this is the wrong thing to do. Because it is. This guy may have thought he was doing the right thing, but he wasn’t trained or prepared for what he was facing, and it got him killed.

The concealed weapon gave him a false sense of competence.

And it’s the romanticizing of guns such as we’re seeing here, i.e. talk of “honor” and “having balls” that make people carrying guns are going to be heroes. It defines the fun culture.

266 klys  Jun 9, 2014 6:55:16pm

re: #254 Rightwingconspirator

We have no evidence that is what was in his mind. The CCW critics seem to view him with more suspicion than an unarmed guy trying to do the same. He may have just thought he had the ability to stop a killer, and failed in a worthy effort. The law is very clear about the average citizens permission to stop a violent felony in progress with force.

There is a distinction between permission and responsibility. There’s also a very key distinction that we don’t know the answer to: would he have been willing to stand up and stop the gunman if he wasn’t carrying? Obviously some people out there would. However, if carrying is the only thing that gave him the confidence to confront him, then that’s a different perspective, and I think that’s the tragedy that Obdi was referring to: that it very well might be that he could have survived this if he hadn’t confronted the gunman.

Of course, all of this is might-have-beens and maybes, and it’s all speculation to start with, but I think that is where a lot of the pushback against the NRA rhetoric has come from - the possibility that someone felt he had a responsibility to act, to be the “good guy with a gun” stopping the “bad guy with a gun” and actively seeking to have that confrontation. (There are reports he had a conversation with a friend that he was going to confront them, implying a conscious decision.)

The notion that he saved lives is as much speculation as the notion that he would have lived if he hadn’t confronted the gunman, for what it’s worth. Both deal with might-have-beens. We don’t have substantive evidence to suggest either is the right answer yet.

267 urbanmeemaw  Jun 9, 2014 6:55:23pm

re: #84 Minor_L

I hate it when media treats domestic terrorism this way - (Media Bot Frownie Face)l “It’s (sigh) a senseless tragedy and we are powerless to stop it”.

Guns going off “accidentally” and killing/wounding innocent bystanders:
“It’s (sigh) a senseless tragedy and we are powerless to stop it.”

“Next: our exclusive investigation reveals a shocking discovery: people who go to war may die or be wounded for life. It’s (sigh) a senseless tragedy that we are powerless to stop that can only seen on Local 12”

Film at 11.

268 goddamnedfrank  Jun 9, 2014 6:56:38pm

re: #253 sattv4u2

Thats anywhere!

I’m referring to legal purchases. You’re original post stating It’s Nevada. They’d deliver firearms in the drinking water if it wasn’t physically impossible.

I’m curious, why do some people think that what they were referring to places certain limits on the conversation?

Also, private party transfers are legal purchases, so regardless your point was a stupid one.

269 urbanmeemaw  Jun 9, 2014 6:57:41pm

re: #107 Charles Johnson

Or like a speech by Rand Paul, Ted Cruz or the Rethug platform, etc. etc. etc.

270 Skip Intro  Jun 9, 2014 6:59:06pm

Maybe, just maybe, we should leave the capture of terrorists in the hands of the people who have been trained to do it.

“From there, the Millers went across the street to a Wal-Mart. Jerad Miller entered the front door, raised a handgun, fired a round and told the people to “Get out. This is a revolution. The police are on the way.”

Nearby, Joseph Robert Wilcox, 31, was at a checkout area and heard the commotion.

He told his friend he was going to confront the suspects,” McMahill said of Wilcox. “He was carrying a concealed weapon, and he immediately and heroically moved toward the position of Jerad Miller.”

But Wilcox didn’t know Jerad Miller wasn’t alone. As Wilcox confronted Jerad Miller, Amanda Miller shot Wilcox in the chest.

“He immediately collapsed,” McMahill said. The shot was fatal and the Millers had claimed their third victim in their revolution.”

271 Pie-onist Overlord  Jun 9, 2014 7:00:14pm

re: #264 Rightwingconspirator

Yes, this is so. But let’s not say “playing hero”. The law and a certain morality gives us room to step up. Maybe to confront a rapist in the act, maybe a shooter scenario.

There are crimes where i would try if I thought I could. Especially if children were at immediate risk.

Most rapist use roofie as their rape weapon of choice, how would you even recognize someone getting dropped a roofie, and how would having a gun protect against it?

272 EPR-radar  Jun 9, 2014 7:00:29pm

re: #265 allegro

And it’s the romanticizing of guns such as we’re seeing here, i.e. talk of “honor” and “having balls” that make people carrying guns are going to be heroes. It defines the fun culture.

The best typo of 2014 thus far. I assume “fun” should be “gun” above.

273 danarchy  Jun 9, 2014 7:01:11pm

re: #249 Targetpractice

Dark, the “right thing” was to protect himself, not others. If he didn’t have to fight, then the “right thing” was to run. That’s what we’re told guns are for, self-defense, not playing hero.

So the guy who stopped the Seattle shooter with pepper spray did the wrong thing? Unarmed teachers and administrators who tackle shooters are doing the wrong thing? The fact this particular guy who tried to do something had a gun is beside the point.

274 Targetpractice  Jun 9, 2014 7:01:19pm

re: #264 Rightwingconspirator

Yes, this is so. But let’s not say “playing hero”. The law and a certain morality gives us room to step up. Maybe to confront a rapist in the act, maybe a shooter scenario.

There are crimes where i would try if I thought I could. Especially if children were at immediate risk.

It may give us room, but we still have to have the common sense whether to exploit it or not. It’s the same common sense we expect any gun owner to operate on, that if you don’t have to draw your gun, you do not. Based upon all the evidence so far, the man had no need to confront Miller, but he did. He tried to act like a hero and instead got gunned down as a fool.

275 calochortus  Jun 9, 2014 7:01:39pm

re: #257 goddamnedfrank

Let’s assume she wasn’t. Is there a compelling public safety argument for allowing people who cohabitate with felons to own handguns? It’s one of the more abusable loopholes we have.

There was something posted earlier from a post she made at Infowars where she talked about how unfair it was that she couldn’t legally have guns while living with him. She didn’t seem overly concerned about breaking that law.

276 Rightwingconspirator  Jun 9, 2014 7:01:50pm

re: #271 Pie-onist Overlord

Then that’s a different scenario than I refer to.

277 Targetpractice  Jun 9, 2014 7:02:39pm

re: #273 danarchy

So the guy who stopped the Seattle shooter with pepper spray did the wrong thing? Unarmed teachers and administrators who tackle shooters are doing the wrong thing? The fact this particular guy who tried to do something had a gun is beside the point.

Yes, they did the wrong thing. The fact that they managed to succeed where this guy failed does not make it any more “right.”

278 Rightwingconspirator  Jun 9, 2014 7:02:56pm

re: #274 Targetpractice

Okay then there are those unarmed moments where one might step up. It’s the same thing.

279 goddamnedfrank  Jun 9, 2014 7:03:01pm

re: #271 Pie-onist Overlord

Most rapist use roofie as their rape weapon of choice, how would you even recognize someone getting dropped a roofie, and how would having a gun protect against it?

I waved a rifle at a dude who was beating the absolute shit out of a woman once, agreed to be a witness against him and got his ass sent to jail.

But it was the cops I called who actually ensured he didn’t walk off with her.

280 Pie-onist Overlord  Jun 9, 2014 7:03:33pm

TCOT has now officially adopted the guy who drove into Mexico with guns in the car, as their HERO.

What the fuck did he do that makes him a HERO? At the very best he was a dumb shit who missed the exit ramp, at the worst he is a liar who was smuggling weapons across the border of a nation with whom we have treaties.

281 goddamnedfrank  Jun 9, 2014 7:04:46pm

re: #279 goddamnedfrank

Also I was inside my own apartment looking down from my kitchen window, so this wasn’t some open carry situation. I just held the rifle out over my head and screamed down at the dude like that enraged Sand Person from Star Wars.

282 Charles Johnson  Jun 9, 2014 7:06:08pm

re: #273 danarchy

Yes, he absolutely did the wrong thing. He should have kept himself as safe as possible until the people who are trained to handle situations like this arrived.

Now his family is grieving.

283 NJDhockeyfan  Jun 9, 2014 7:06:10pm

Why did the chicken cross the road?

Because he was a junkie…

Two arrested in drug bust at former Steelers’ home

Two men were arrested after a huge heroin bust outside Pittsburgh Sunday night, at the home of a former Steelers cornerback.

There was also a chicken involved.

According to KDKA, the DEA and local authorities found 1,500 bricks of heroin. They also seized 16 guns, more than $100,000 in cash and jewelry, Cuban cigars, cars and a live chicken. (I don’t even want to know what they were doing with the poultry).

The bust was at the home of former Steelers cornerback Deshea Townsend, though there was no indication he was involved. He’s coaching at Mississippi State now.

284 dog philosopher  Jun 9, 2014 7:07:08pm

open carry

where i come from that refers to beer

285 Skip Intro  Jun 9, 2014 7:08:03pm

re: #282 Charles Johnson

Yes, he absolutely did the wrong thing. He should have kept himself as safe as possible until the people who are trained to handle situations like this arrived.

Especially since the terrorists told everyone to leave the store because the police were coming.

286 Rightwingconspirator  Jun 9, 2014 7:10:01pm

re: #271 Pie-onist Overlord

Most rapist use roofie as their rape weapon of choice, how would you even recognize someone getting dropped a roofie, and how would having a gun protect against it?

re: #279 goddamnedfrank

Since we are being specific- Let’s say I come home from work to hear screams from my home. I rush in and a man that broke in is raping my beaten bloody wife.

What would you say should happen next?

287 dog philosopher  Jun 9, 2014 7:10:20pm

i will be at home tonight doing some serious boding

i’ve been practicing at work i think that’s called ‘fore-boding’

but i warn you im new at it so i do not bode well

288 goddamnedfrank  Jun 9, 2014 7:10:23pm

re: #279 goddamnedfrank

Also I didn’t actually have to testify against him, he plead out the morning of the trial. Which was good because I told the prosecutor the odds of me being able to honestly identify the dude were slim to non-existent, as it had been midnight and I was four stories above the beat down.

I do remember seeing the woman in the street lights though, she had blood running all down her face and shirt, and I mean tons of it.

289 Pie-onist Overlord  Jun 9, 2014 7:12:20pm

re: #286 Rightwingconspirator

Since we are being specific- Let’s say I come home from work to hear screams from my home. I rush in and a man that broke in is raping my beaten bloody wife.

What would you say should happen next?

Did you ever actually have your house broken into? Maybe secure your home and put in an alarm system?

290 darthstar  Jun 9, 2014 7:12:38pm

They have courthouses in WalMarts now?

Here, have some comic relief…an honest trailer for the movie Top Gun.

Youtube Video

291 Targetpractice  Jun 9, 2014 7:12:53pm

There’s a reason why, among the things they tell employees about what to do and not do during a robbery, they make sure to emphasize that you do not confront the robber. Odds are that all he cares about is the money in the till and whatever he wants to steal. If you can get out, you leave, you do not look for a weapon or try to tackle the dude to wrestle his weapon away. And if you can’t get out, then you hide until he leaves or help arrives. Why? Because money and merchandise can be replaced, but you can’t. Plus it helps the company avoid the liability for your injury or death if they tell you flat out not to be a hero if you don’t have to be.

292 Skip Intro  Jun 9, 2014 7:13:40pm

Here’s the most complete catalog of events I’ve seen so far.

lasvegassun.com

293 Rightwingconspirator  Jun 9, 2014 7:14:30pm

Before i sign off for some work I’ll say this.

When judging a guy that steps up to stop a violent felony, like a rape, a deadly beating with a weapon or a bad guy with a gun, we should not be extra critical about the guy with a CCW or gun. That’s rather beside the point.

Self defense and the legit defense of others is a risk for anyone. Cop, soldier or citizen. Some will prevail and some will fall. I for one will not be terribly critical of those who step up legit and fall. Any of us would use the best thing available.

294 Skip Intro  Jun 9, 2014 7:14:38pm

re: #291 Targetpractice

And he might just have a partner that you overlooked.

295 goddamnedfrank  Jun 9, 2014 7:14:54pm

re: #286 Rightwingconspirator

Since we are being specific- Let’s say I come home from work to hear screams from my home. I rush in and a man that broke in is raping my beaten bloody wife.

What would you say should happen next?

First I would note that I’m being specific about something that actually happened and not some hypothetical.

Second it’s your home, not Walmart. I don’t see anybody arguing against castle doctrine or saying you shouldn’t defend your wife. Fuckin’ shoot the dude, empty the clip if you want to. At least in that scenario you’re not killing over property.

296 Decatur Deb  Jun 9, 2014 7:15:06pm

re: #286 Rightwingconspirator

Since we are being specific- Let’s say I come home from work to hear screams from my home. I rush in and a man that broke in is raping my beaten bloody wife.

What would you say should happen next?

You pull the gun and try not to hit her. The difference is that the two clowns seem to have been releasing the customers, not threatening anyone.

297 Killgore Trout  Jun 9, 2014 7:15:42pm

re: #291 Targetpractice

There’s a reason why, among the things they tell employees about what to do and not do during a robbery, they make sure to emphasize that you do not confront the robber. Odds are that all he cares about is the money in the till and whatever he wants to steal. If you can get out, you leave, you do not look for a weapon or try to tackle the dude to wrestle his weapon away. And if you can’t get out, then you hide until he leaves or help arrives. Why? Because money and merchandise can be replaced, but you can’t. Plus it helps the company avoid the liability for your injury or death if they tell you flat out not to be a hero if you don’t have to be.

Actually it’s more about liability from employee lawsuits if they get hurt.

298 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 9, 2014 7:16:08pm

re: #254 Rightwingconspirator

We have no evidence that is what was in his mind. The CCW critics seem to view him with more suspicion than an unarmed guy trying to do the same. He may have just thought he had the ability to stop a killer, and failed in a worthy effort. The law is very clear about the average citizens permission to stop a violent felony in progress with force.

I’m not a CCW critic. This guy might have been any number of CCW holders that I’m perfectly fine with having CCWs. Just having a CCW doesn’t get any sort of criticism from me.

I’m not sure what you said in any way differs from what I said. He thought he was able to stop a killer. He failed. I”ve never for a moment argued that it should be illegal to do what he did so I’ve got no idea why you’re saying that it was permissible. It’s permissible to jump into a rushing river to try to save someone’s life, too. It doesn’t mean it’s the best thing to do.

299 EPR-radar  Jun 9, 2014 7:16:18pm

re: #296 Decatur Deb

You pull the gun and try not to hit her. The difference is that the two clowns seem to have been releasing the customers, not threatening anyone.

There is also a huge difference between home defense and acting in public.

300 goddamnedfrank  Jun 9, 2014 7:17:05pm

re: #295 goddamnedfrank

Also I’m with Obdicut. I’m not going to condemn the guy for confronting Miller. It probably was stupid but so what, there’s a lot of overlap in the Ven diagram of bravery and stupidity.

301 Targetpractice  Jun 9, 2014 7:17:13pm

re: #297 Killgore Trout

Actually it’s more about liability from employee lawsuits if they get hurt.

Very true. It’s why a lot of businesses now make it a habit to fire employees who confront robbers instead of simply letting them go.

302 Decatur Deb  Jun 9, 2014 7:17:53pm

re: #300 goddamnedfrank

Also I’m with Obdicut. I’m not going to condemn the guy for confronting Miller. It probably was stupid but so what, there’s a lot of overlap in the Ven diagram of bravery and stupidity.

It’s not like our condemnation will ruin his day.

303 Backwoods_Sleuth  Jun 9, 2014 7:17:58pm

I’m off to sleep now…have to be up early to retrieve Doorframe from the animal hospital and hoping to get that done before the big thunderstorms arrive.

niters…

304 Rightwingconspirator  Jun 9, 2014 7:18:58pm

re: #289 Pie-onist Overlord

My home is quite secure. But that’s not about me it’s about the wide spectrum of what can happen. if I saw a man drop a pill into a womans drink my voice would be my weapon. Not a gun, not a fist. My loud and expletive laced voice and maybe my phone.

So let’s agree circumstances vary and the right response varies alongside. Fair enough?

305 Skip Intro  Jun 9, 2014 7:19:05pm

re: #296 Decatur Deb

You pull the gun and try not to hit her. The difference is that the two clowns seem to have been releasing the customers, not threatening anyone.

It now appears they wanted to have their last stand against the cops. Now there was no way for the CC guy to know that, and apparently it never occurred to him that there may have been more than one bad guy.

Fatal mistake on his part, and for no good reason at all.

306 Rightwingconspirator  Jun 9, 2014 7:20:20pm

re: #298 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

It doesn’t mean it’s the best thing to do.

Nor did I say it was best. Damn shame.

307 Rightwingconspirator  Jun 9, 2014 7:21:13pm

re: #296 Decatur Deb

You pull the gun and try not to hit her. The difference is that the two clowns seem to have been releasing the customers, not threatening anyone.

Maybe no gun. Maybe never mind the gun.

Good night all I do have to get to editing tonight.

308 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 9, 2014 7:21:33pm

re: #300 goddamnedfrank

Also I’m with Obdicut. I’m not going to condemn the guy for confronting Miller. It probably was stupid but so what, there’s a lot of overlap in the Ven diagram of bravery and stupidity.

And that he didn’t shoot, sadly, probably points to him being a restrained guy, not a cowboy type. He didn’t just start shooting. Which points to how difficult it is to size up and judge these situations, and how you can’t really teach that in a class very effectively.

I think a lot of shooters get taken down while reloading. Which makes sense.

309 allegro  Jun 9, 2014 7:22:09pm

re: #272 EPR-radar

The best typo of 2014 thus far. I assume “fun” should be “gun” above.

Grrrrr @ autocorrect on my Surface. That and dropping a few words as well.

310 Charles Johnson  Jun 9, 2014 7:22:38pm
311 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 9, 2014 7:23:11pm

re: #304 Rightwingconspirator

The point that was being made to you is that for most rapes, a gun isn’t going to protect you, because it normally comes from someone your guard is down around.

312 EPR-radar  Jun 9, 2014 7:23:25pm

re: #309 allegro

Grrrrr @ autocorrect on my Surface. That and dropping a few words as well.

Autocorrect is a big nuisance. Especially for essential words that have not yet made it into the dictionaries, like “derp” and “wingnut”.

313 RealityBasedSteve  Jun 9, 2014 7:23:35pm

re: #160 EPR-radar

Why screw around? Issue bullet proof vests to all school children. //

What’s wrong with “Fisher Prices My First Semi Auto Rifle” I mean really, I don’t see where it says that the 2nd amendment is limited to people over 18!!! /derp

314 NJDhockeyfan  Jun 9, 2014 7:23:56pm

Slender Man Now Linked to 3 Violent Acts

A fictional horror creature popularized by Internet memes is now linked to three violent crimes.

A week after two 12-year-old Wisconsin girls allegedly stabbed their friend 19 times to honor Slender Man, more real-life connections to the spooky character are emerging.

A man accused of killing two cops and a civilian before committing suicide with his wife in Las Vegas on Sunday often dressed up in costume as Slender Man, a neighbor told KTNV.

And a Cincinnati mom told WLWT she thinks her daughter may have been inspired by Slender Man when she attacked her with a knife in their kitchen, wearing a hood and white mask.

…It’s not clear why Slender Man has been linked to more crime, especially considering that the character himself is not outwardly violent.

“He doesn’t actively murder. It’s generally more mysterious than that,” Peck said. “The big thing is that he’s otherworldly, mysterious. It’s just odd that people are doing this in Slender Man’s name when part of the legend is that he’s just beyond us.”

315 goddamnedfrank  Jun 9, 2014 7:24:23pm

re: #305 Skip Intro

It now appears they wanted to have their last stand against the cops. Now there was no way for the CC guy to know that, and apparently it never occurred to him that there may have been more than one bad guy.

Fatal mistake on his part, and for no good reason at all.

I’m not sure his reasons were bad, but he clearly wasn’t operating with full knowledge of the circumstances. And who ever is in these situations?

It’s Vegas, darkly apropos in the grimmest sense that he should play his hand and lose everything.

316 Charles Johnson  Jun 9, 2014 7:25:49pm

re: #308 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

I’m not condemning him, either, just pointing out that he made a really irresponsible wrong decision at a time of extreme stress. If he hadn’t been carrying a gun, he wouldn’t have made this decision, and he wouldn’t be dead. If he was carrying a gun and understood he wasn’t prepared to deal with this situation, he also wouldn’t have been dead.

But it’s pretty obvious that it was the presence of a gun that made him feel like he could handle a situation he plainly was not trained to handle.

317 goddamnedfrank  Jun 9, 2014 7:25:51pm

re: #308 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

And that he didn’t shoot, sadly, probably points to him being a restrained guy, not a cowboy type. He didn’t just start shooting. Which points to how difficult it is to size up and judge these situations, and how you can’t really teach that in a class very effectively.

I think a lot of shooters get taken down while reloading. Which makes sense.

This goes to what I meant above about the opponent who confronts vs the one who tries to flee. How he’s divided in his mind and much easier to deal with.

318 Gus  Jun 9, 2014 7:26:08pm
319 Gus  Jun 9, 2014 7:26:49pm
320 Belafon  Jun 9, 2014 7:26:54pm

re: #314 NJDhockeyfan

A man accused of killing two cops and a civilian before committing suicide with his wife in Las Vegas on Sunday often dressed up in costume as Slender Man, a neighbor told KTNV.

He also dressed up as the Joker and a commando. He’s not exactly the best example.

321 Belafon  Jun 9, 2014 7:27:59pm

re: #319 Gus

Why aren’t these people afraid of being wrong?

322 Targetpractice  Jun 9, 2014 7:28:18pm

re: #318 Gus

[Embedded content]

I’d laugh, except I’m sure somebody’s working on a Nuclear Power Plant Simulator as we speak.

323 Skip Intro  Jun 9, 2014 7:28:21pm

re: #315 goddamnedfrank

I’m not sure his reasons were bad, but he clearly wasn’t operating with full knowledge of the circumstances. And who ever is in these situations?

It’s Vegas, darkly apropos in the grimmest sense that he should play his hand and lose everything.

It could have been worse (not for the CC guy) if he had gotten a shot off and the terrorists started shooting people at random in response, which is certainly something the female terrorist was capable of.

324 lawhawk  Jun 9, 2014 7:28:44pm

re: #282 Charles Johnson

Some people run towards gun fire. Others run away from it. It’s a judgment call, but having a gun doesn’t give you the needed skills or ability to save others. Heck, it didn’t help the two cops, who did have training and skills.

I totally feel sorry for his family since he’s no longer in his life, and he thought he could intervene to save others. In the process, he lost his own life.

The problem here isn’t that some people try to be heroes, but that people are being thrust into a situation where they need to be heroes in the first place because of extremists and gun nuts who think that everyone should be armed to the hilt and should be able to do as they please.

At the same time, you’ve got politicians and political organizations who are feeding these extremists and pushing this agenda to an extremist end, including open carry and CCW - all while fighting to prevent even the most modest of limitations or restrictions on the acquisition of firearms.

When everyone carries in the name of safety, no one is truly safe.

325 EPR-radar  Jun 9, 2014 7:28:54pm

re: #315 goddamnedfrank

I’m not sure his reasons were bad, but he clearly wasn’t operating with full knowledge of the circumstances. And who ever is in these situations?

It’s Vegas, darkly apropos in the grimmest sense that he should play his hand and lose everything.

His odds were good (most shooters are solo acts), but snake eyes (the accomplice) came up.

This is why I think the NRA’s propaganda about good guys with guns stopping bad guys with guns is so dangerous if it is extended to public affairs. The model it leads to (rather quickly) is a failed state where people are shooting each other in the streets for the hell of it.

326 HappyWarrior  Jun 9, 2014 7:29:24pm

I can’t really condemn the guy for trying but I think it’s been pointed out that he probably had no idea what to do once the situation presented itself. And I guess that’s the problem I have with what I’ll call a gung-ho attitude. You may think you’re ready for a situation like that but chances are that you are not.

327 Killgore Trout  Jun 9, 2014 7:30:03pm

re: #314 NJDhockeyfan

Slender Man Now Linked to 3 Violent Acts

Let the congressional hearings begin!

328 HappyWarrior  Jun 9, 2014 7:31:10pm

re: #323 Skip Intro

It could have been worse (not for the CC guy) if he had gotten a shot off and the terrorists started shooting people at random in response, which is certainly something the female terrorist was capable of.

That’s certainly a valid point too. I don’t deny the guy meant well and wanted to stop these people but at the same time, a bad situation could have gotten even worse.

329 RealityBasedSteve  Jun 9, 2014 7:31:15pm

re: #314 NJDhockeyfan

Slender Man Now Linked to 3 Violent Acts

now that’s something awful.

RBS

330 Skip Intro  Jun 9, 2014 7:33:13pm

re: #326 HappyWarrior

I can’t really condemn the guy for trying but I think it’s been pointed out that he probably had no idea what to do once the situation presented itself. And I guess that’s the problem I have with what I’ll call a gung-ho attitude. You may think you’re ready for a situation like that but chances are that you are not.

People who train for these situations as part of their job aren’t always ready when the real thing happens. As I tried to point out above, real life is quite a bit different from what you see in the movies or on tv.

331 Kragar  Jun 9, 2014 7:34:43pm

re: #314 NJDhockeyfan

Slender Man Now Linked to 3 Violent Acts

WE NEED TO LOOK INTO ALL THESE FICTIONAL CHARACTERS CAUSING GUN VIOLENCE!

332 HappyWarrior  Jun 9, 2014 7:35:33pm

re: #330 Skip Intro

People who train for these situations as part of their job aren’t always ready when the real thing happens. As I tried to point out above, real life is quite a bit different from what you see in the movies or on tv.

Exactly. A real life situation is never as cut and clear as it is in the movies.

333 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 9, 2014 7:35:38pm

re: #316 Charles Johnson

It’s possible he might have still gone and confronted the guy without a gun, but I do think that carrying a CCW indicates that you, well, are carrying a gun around in case of violence, so that you can respond to that violence with a gun. I really don’t think that’s a stretch. I know that what is recommended by the cops is for people to stay the hell away, and not try to be heros but CCW’s are granted with some pretty lax standards in some states, like in Florida where just doing a hunter safety training course is enough to get one. I don’t think in hunter safety they spend much time covering this sort of thing.

I do think that anyone carrying a gun should at least be trained as to what the cops would prefer them to do in the situation, which I’m pretty damn sure is not confront the person.

334 Targetpractice  Jun 9, 2014 7:36:25pm

re: #330 Skip Intro

People who train for these situations as part of their job aren’t always ready when the real thing happens. As I tried to point out above, real life is quite a bit different from what you see in the movies or on tv.

That’s because we as a species are naturally hardwired to flee from danger, whether we like to admit it or not. It takes a great deal of training to tamp down the fight-or-flight instinct and maintain your cool in a stressful situation, training that cops and others whose jobs require working in such situations have to maintain through constant repetition. Even then, there’s no guarantees in a confrontation, that the guy who was gung-ho to go to fight might not simply freeze up at the moment of truth instead.

335 Kragar  Jun 9, 2014 7:38:06pm

re: #333 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

It’s possible he might have still gone and confronted the guy without a gun, but I do think that carrying a CCW indicates that you, well, are carrying a gun around in case of violence, so that you can respond to that violence with a gun. I really don’t think that’s a stretch. I know that what is recommended by the cops is for people to stay the hell away, and not try to be heros but CCW’s are granted with some pretty lax standards in some states, like in Florida where just doing a hunter safety training course is enough to get one. I don’t think in hunter safety they spend much time covering this sort of thing.

I do think that anyone carrying a gun should at least be trained as to what the cops would prefer them to do in the situation, which I’m pretty damn sure is not confront the person.

Not only trained, but need to requalify every few years to make sure they’re still capable of being trusted with the CCW permit

336 NJDhockeyfan  Jun 9, 2014 7:38:13pm

re: #329 RealityBasedSteve

now that’s something awful.

RBS

From the comments:

My 12 year old daughter had a girl at her middle school who was really into this character. One night we started getting strange threatening texts to my phone from an unknown number. When I replied back to the texts that I was contacting the police, the girl texted back immedietly begging me not to because she was playing a game like Slenderman and pretending to stalk my daughter. She went as far as to download an app that disguised what number she was calling from so it appeared to be from a stranger. I mentioned that I’d call and talk to her mother. She wasn’t the least bit concerned about that. Her parents don’t care what she does. She just didn’t want me calling the police. I think parents don’t pay a darn bit of attention to anything their kids does if it takes time away from their social lives, cell phone time and texting time. I told this girl she needed psychological help and if it continued, I would take the texts and her admission to the school and the local police. It stopped.

My daughters don’t know who Slenderman is but I’ll keep an extra eye on what they are doing online anyway.

337 Charles Johnson  Jun 9, 2014 7:39:05pm
338 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 9, 2014 7:39:30pm

re: #336 NJDhockeyfan

That story makes no sense at all.

339 Decatur Deb  Jun 9, 2014 7:40:22pm

re: #337 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

If you’re crazy and don’t want to be noticed, an asylum is a good place to hide.

340 Kragar  Jun 9, 2014 7:41:25pm

re: #337 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

341 Gus  Jun 9, 2014 7:41:54pm
342 HappyWarrior  Jun 9, 2014 7:42:28pm

Down right eerie reading part of the interview with him. Reminds me of the footage showing McVeigh interviewed after Waco.

343 Targetpractice  Jun 9, 2014 7:44:17pm

I remember saying at the time that the BLM backed down that there were those in the Bundy crew, the wannabe martyrs, who would not be satisfied with getting the government to back down. That they’d not rest until they got the shootout with the government they’d been promised by the pundits who were agitating for a repeat of Waco. Guess the Millers decided not to wait for the revolution to come to them.

344 Decatur Deb  Jun 9, 2014 7:46:37pm

re: #341 Gus

[Embedded content]

Ms Chan might be earning an in-depth exclusive into the workings of the nutcase mind. No way she doesn’t draw threats.

345 Belafon  Jun 9, 2014 7:47:49pm

re: #336 NJDhockeyfan

I talked to my nine year old about it because he knows who Slender man is. What my son thought was strange was that the first two girls thought there was a real castle to go to.

346 Decatur Deb  Jun 9, 2014 7:48:13pm

Woman’s dad backs up the white supremacist angle.

chicagotribune.com

347 Belafon  Jun 9, 2014 7:48:44pm

re: #341 Gus

We should blame Batman for his actions.

348 Kragar  Jun 9, 2014 7:50:08pm

re: #347 Belafon

We should blame Batman for his actions.

I blame Thesues

349 Gus  Jun 9, 2014 7:50:31pm
350 Killgore Trout  Jun 9, 2014 7:54:25pm

re: #341 Gus

[Embedded content]

Irrelevant!
/Shhhh!

351 sagehen  Jun 9, 2014 7:55:47pm

OT: for those not watching the new season of 24 and wondering if you should… London is an excellent place for chase scenes and explosions. Those skinny weirdly angled and curved little roads make it far more dramatic than a similar scene in American cities or on the freeway.

352 Gus  Jun 9, 2014 7:57:47pm

re: #350 Killgore Trout

Irrelevant!
/Shhhh!

That’s his “call sign” and not about his costume. They were Batman fans you know.

353 EPR-radar  Jun 9, 2014 7:59:27pm

OT, but happy news. Apparently GOProud will soon be a thing of the past. en.wikipedia.org

In June 2014, reports surfaced that the GOProud leadership had decided to dissolve the organization.[38] Executive Director Matthew Bechstein issued a denial of the report, stating that it was untrue and that the organization would continue operating as it had. But the following day he admitted that “I posted what I had to on Facebook so I wouldn’t scare our members and thwart our fundraising efforts. I wanted to mitigate a disaster.”[39] He then stated that GOProud did indeed plan to file dissolution papers with the government.[40]

These quislings will not be missed. I like the pointless lying at the end. A perfect fit for the lying nonsense that GOProud was.

354 Amory Blaine  Jun 9, 2014 8:01:01pm

re: #318 Gus

I couldn’t get past the nuclear safety resolution level. The energy committee was chaired by a level 50 teabagger.

355 HappyWarrior  Jun 9, 2014 8:01:18pm

re: #353 EPR-radar

OT, but happy news. Apparently GOProud will soon be a thing of the past. en.wikipedia.org

These quislings will not be missed. I like the pointless lying at the end. A perfect fit for the lying nonsense that GOProud was.

It was always something of a sham to me. Coulter was on their board of directors. You know the woman who thought it was “humorous” to call John Edwards a faggot.

356 Kragar  Jun 9, 2014 8:01:42pm

re: #353 EPR-radar

OT, but happy news. Apparently GOProud will soon be a thing of the past. en.wikipedia.org

These quislings will not be missed. I like the pointless lying at the end. A perfect fit for the lying nonsense that GOProud was.

I always wondered how they could be proud of the GOP all things considered.

357 allegro  Jun 9, 2014 8:02:08pm

re: #353 EPR-radar

OT, but happy news. Apparently GOProud will soon be a thing of the past. en.wikipedia.org

These quislings will not be missed. I like the pointless lying at the end. A perfect fit for the lying nonsense that GOProud was.

Didn’t the original founder recently defect from the GOP stating his reason for doing so was because of the bigotry and hate?

358 Aunty Entity Dragon  Jun 9, 2014 8:03:20pm

Fuck it.

I was just looking in at Balloon Juice and noticed a number of the juicers are mocking the third shooting victim who was killed by Mrs MIller while trying to confront Jared at the Wal Mart. he didn’t know that the girl was also a shooter. (A mistake many cops would have made as well. Female shooters are almost unheard of)

This is the sort of smug, condescending bullshit that looses elections for Democrats.

Salt of the earth types may like progressive policies at 75% rate…but they also know when they or their values are being mocked…and it is utterly deadly for progressives. Sarah Palin gets that…which is why she is so effective at reaching blue collar types. Elitism and scorn will fucking kill progressives any and every day of the week…and we just…keep…doing it.

The guy tried to do something and he is dead because of a mistake that likely would have killed many professionals. It is damned lucky that the pepper spray guy in Seattle didn’t get killed as well. You always run that risk in an active shooter situation. Despicable comments at Balloon Juice accusing him of carry a handgun to protect white women from the negro hoards should be held as evidence that we progressives have some of the same sort of sorry assholes that you see at Red State.

359 Gus  Jun 9, 2014 8:04:35pm

re: #358 Aunty Entity Dragon

Fuck it.

I was just looking in at Balloon Juice and noticed a number of the juicers are mocking the third shooting victim who was killed by Mrs MIller while trying to confront Jared at the Wal Mart. he didn’t know that the girl was also a shooter. (A mistake many cops would have made as well. Female shooters are almost unheard of)

This is the sort of smug, condescending bullshit that looses elections for Democrats.

Salt of the earth types may like progressive policies at 75% rate…but they also know when they or their values are being mocked…and it is utterly deadly for progressives. Sarah Palin gets that…which is why she is so effective at reaching blue collar types. Elitism and scorn will fucking kill progressives any and every day of the week…and we just…keep…doing it.

The guy tried to do something and he is dead because of a mistake that likely would have killed many professionals. It is damned lucky that the pepper spray guy in Seattle didn’t get killed as well. You always run that risk in an active shooter situation. Despicable comments at Balloon Juice accusing him of carry a handgun to protect white women from the negro hoards should be held as evidence that we progressives have some of the same sort of sorry assholes that you see at Red State.

This is why I said this morning that I didn’t want to “go there.” We need to leave that poor guy alone.

360 EPR-radar  Jun 9, 2014 8:05:15pm

re: #357 allegro

Didn’t the original founder recently defect from the GOP stating his reason for doing so was because of the bigotry and hate!

Yes he did. Poor dear has a very slow mind. By the time he reaches his fifties, he might have mastered the addition and multiplication tables.

361 HappyWarrior  Jun 9, 2014 8:06:24pm

What the hell makes any gay person think the GOP will be friendly to them? The GOP hasn’t been decent on LGBT issues honestly ever on a national level.

362 Targetpractice  Jun 9, 2014 8:08:30pm

Another E3, another round of disappointment as Bethesda basically says that they’re not going to say anything about their next game until they’re a few months from launch. BAH!

363 Aunty Entity Dragon  Jun 9, 2014 8:08:47pm

Good night lizards. I needed to get that rant off my chest. I’m seeing the orthopedist on wednesday for my new back injury. I will let you know how it goes. *fingers crossed*

364 EPR-radar  Jun 9, 2014 8:10:48pm

re: #361 HappyWarrior

What the hell makes any gay person think the GOP will be friendly to them? The GOP hasn’t been decent on LGBT issues honestly ever on a national level.

A gay person that is rich enough to believe his wealth/power will shield him from the consequences of what the so-cons would unleash could plausibly lean GOP.

Unfortunately, gays have the normal proportion of Quislings and sociopaths.

365 Killgore Trout  Jun 9, 2014 8:11:39pm

re: #358 Aunty Entity Dragon

Fuck it.

I was just looking in at Balloon Juice and noticed a number of the juicers are mocking the third shooting victim who was killed by Mrs MIller while trying to confront Jared at the Wal Mart. he didn’t know that the girl was also a shooter. (A mistake many cops would have made as well. Female shooters are almost unheard of)

This is the sort of smug, condescending bullshit that looses elections for Democrats.

Salt of the earth types may like progressive policies at 75% rate…but they also know when they or their values are being mocked…and it is utterly deadly for progressives. Sarah Palin gets that…which is why she is so effective at reaching blue collar types. Elitism and scorn will fucking kill progressives any and every day of the week…and we just…keep…doing it.

The guy tried to do something and he is dead because of a mistake that likely would have killed many professionals. It is damned lucky that the pepper spray guy in Seattle didn’t get killed as well. You always run that risk in an active shooter situation. Despicable comments at Balloon Juice accusing him of carry a handgun to protect white women from the negro hoards should be held as evidence that we progressives have some of the same sort of sorry assholes that you see at Red State.

It’s sad but I suspect a lot of people really don’t mean it. They get caught up in the culture wars and they’re saying things and expressing opinions they think hurt their enemies on the other side. Deep down I think most people recognize the importance of self defense and the noble act of trying to save others. They aren’t shitty people they’re just saying shitty things.

366 HappyWarrior  Jun 9, 2014 8:11:44pm

re: #364 EPR-radar

A gay person that is rich enough to believe his wealth/power will shield him from the consequences of what the so-cons would unleash could plausibly lean GOP.

Unfortunately, gays have the normal proportion of Quislings and sociopaths.

True that.

367 EPR-radar  Jun 9, 2014 8:12:46pm

re: #363 Aunty Entity Dragon

Good night lizards. I needed to get that rant off my chest. I’m seeing the orthopedist on wednesday for my new back injury. I will let you know how it goes. *fingers crossed*

You make a very good point. The NRA’s propaganda of “good guy with a gun” needs a full-force push back, but this can’t involve mocking someone who at the end of the day was trying to do the right thing.

368 EPR-radar  Jun 9, 2014 8:14:16pm

re: #365 Killgore Trout

It’s sad but I suspect a lot of people really don’t mean it. They get caught up in the culture wars and they’re saying things and expressing opinions they think hurt their enemies on the other side. Deep down I think most people recognize the importance of self defense and the noble act of trying to save others. They aren’t shitty people they’re just saying shitty things.

Intent is not magic. If people want to be persuasive in politics, they need to get their points across without the splash damage from sloppy thinking and language.

369 HappyWarrior  Jun 9, 2014 8:14:53pm

re: #367 EPR-radar

You make a very good point. The NRA’s propaganda of “good guy with a gun” needs a full-force push back, but this can’t involve mocking someone who at the end of the day was trying to do the right thing.

This times a 1000. The guy shouldn’t be mocked. We do need to push back against that propaganda for sure but mocking this victim isn’t the way to do it.

370 HappyWarrior  Jun 9, 2014 8:15:30pm

The internet allows a lot of people to be dickheads because it’s a lot easier to say something callous behind a keyboard then to someone’s face.

371 Petero1818  Jun 9, 2014 8:19:36pm

re: #161 Charles Johnson

Some people I really feel sorry for in the Vegas terror attack: the family of Joseph Wilcox, the guy with a CCW permit who thought he should confront Jerad Miller because he was one of the good guys with a gun.

This entire episode is a clusterfuck for the NRA folks. Not only did their posterchild supporters open up on cops, but an innocent bystander carrying, gets killed for trying to intervene. Which of course goes against the narrative that carry proponents typically espouse.

372 Targetpractice  Jun 9, 2014 8:26:35pm

re: #371 Petero1818

This entire episode is a clusterfuck for the NRA folks. Not only did their posterchild supporters open up on cops, but an innocent bystander carrying, gets killed for trying to intervene. Which of course goes against the narrative that carry proponents typically espouse.

And they can’t even really argue that the third victim was just defending himself, as they argue all the time that guns are meant for. Kinda hard to argue a case of self-defense when you’re told to leave the store and instead decide you’re gonna try to take the crazed gunman down.

373 Dark_Falcon  Jun 9, 2014 8:42:39pm

re: #282 Charles Johnson

Yes, he absolutely did the wrong thing. He should have kept himself as safe as possible until the people who are trained to handle situations like this arrived.

Now his family is grieving.

I’m sorry, but I just cannot agree with you. If I were armed and had a good chance of stopping a scumbag like that and ran away instead, then my family would think me to be dogshit and they would be right to think that way.

374 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 9, 2014 8:49:27pm

re: #373 Dark_Falcon

I’m sorry, but I just cannot agree with you. If I were armed and had a good chance of stopping a scumbag like that and ran away instead, then my family would think me to be dogshit and they would be right to think that way.

How the hell do you know if you have a good chance or not?

No, people who follow what cops tell you to do and keep yourself out of harm’s way, you are not dogshit. If you toss babies behind you to slow down the pursuit, then you are. But just not trying to hero it out doesn’t make you dogshit.

Jesus fucking christ.

375 GeneJockey  Jun 9, 2014 8:55:01pm

re: #373 Dark_Falcon

I’m sorry, but I just cannot agree with you. If I were armed and had a good chance of stopping a scumbag like that and ran away instead, then my family would think me to be dogshit and they would be right to think that way.

Turned out he had zero chance to stop a scumbag. And if your family would rather you die that way, honestly, you need a different family.

376 Sionainn  Jun 9, 2014 10:01:58pm

re: #9 EPR-radar

The Las Vegas Review-Journal doesn’t seem to think so.

Chickenshits.

This is textbook RWNJ terrorism, perfectly analogous to the stuff that some nuts on the left did in the 60s and 70s.

The Las Vegas Review-Journal is of a Libertarian/conservative slant. Not surprising that they wouldn’t call this terrorism.

377 Sionainn  Jun 9, 2014 10:02:38pm

I don’t know why I’m posting on a dead thread. I’m up way too late. Sorry and good night.

378 TedStriker  Jun 9, 2014 10:11:57pm

re: #373 Dark_Falcon

I’m sorry, but I just cannot agree with you. If I were armed and had a good chance of stopping a scumbag like that and ran away instead, then my family would think me to be dogshit and they would be right to think that way.

WTFITS?!? WTF is wrong with you?!?

379 goddamnedfrank  Jun 9, 2014 11:29:49pm

re: #373 Dark_Falcon

I’m sorry, but I just cannot agree with you. If I were armed and had a good chance of stopping a scumbag like that and ran away instead, then my family would think me to be dogshit and they would be right to think that way.

I’ve frequently gotten the notion that you were raised in an incredibly fucked up and emotionally abusive environment, but that for some reason you’ve chosen to identify almost slavishly with your abusers. Things you’ve said about your Dad in the past; your deference to him as a full grown adult in your mid thirties, the continued abject fear of his disapproval, your frankly stunted interpersonal development - inability to form either meaningful romantic relationships or even empathize with women, the certainty you’ve expressed that you personally are going to hell and your unquestioning total gang loyalty when it comes to the GOP which you’ve described as stemming from your father and his side of the family.

This is just another piece of evidence in that vein. I think your relationship with your family has either profoundly damaged you or that for some unexplained reason you have internalized some truly horrible shit and adopted an unnaturally subservient attitude towards them. I find it impossible to believe that a healthy person would ascribe to their family or especially pre-legitimize such a profoundly vituperative opinion of themselves given the hypothetical in question. Your statement above is basically straight up pathological.

380 Blue Fielder  Jun 9, 2014 11:37:06pm

re: #373 Dark_Falcon

That is a sick complex you’ve developed and you need to get help for it, now.

381 Romantic Heretic  Jun 10, 2014 1:25:35am

Watching the standard debate about firearms and their use to stop the ‘bad guys’ I guess I’ll weigh in.

I’m thinking of Heinlein’s Tunnel in that Sky.

In this book someone had figured a way to screw with the shape of space-time by creating ‘hyper folds’. Essentially a door was created. On this side was Earth, on the other the surface of another planet. Mankind, as it is wont to do, is busily colonizing the galaxy.

As a result a course that can be taken, mandatory for explorers and colonists, is survival. It’s a college level course also sometimes available in high schools.

The final test consists of placing a class on a planet, they aren’t told which one, to survive for up to three local weeks. The failures don’t come back.

Near the beginning the main character, a high school senior who is preparing for his final test, asks his sister (She’s an Amazon, an out planet military unit consisting entirely of women) what gun he should take.

Her advice is Don’t take one at all. His purpose in the test is to survive, not to kill things. If he takes a gun he will like try to kill something he should avoid, and then he’ll be dead.

That’s what happened in Vegas on Sunday. That man who was killed got killed because his gun tempted him into getting into a fight that he shouldn’t have. The other people, those that survived, ran.

On thinking about this event it occurs to me that is what motivated the Millers and the man they killed. They had a frontier mentality. They believed they exist in a survival situation far from civilization and they need their guns to protect them from it. And in the case of the Millers they were trying to return the frontier by tearing down a civilization they hated.

382 Lidane  Jun 10, 2014 2:39:32am

re: #373 Dark_Falcon

I’m sorry, but I just cannot agree with you. If I were armed and had a good chance of stopping a scumbag like that and ran away instead, then my family would think me to be dogshit and they would be right to think that way.

Dude. Seriously? Therapy — invest in it.

The CCW carrier here bought into the “good guy/bad guy with a gun” bullshit that the NRA and the GOP spew like clockwork. He thought he had a chance to be the hero so he pulled his gun and approached. He died without ever getting a shot off. That means he died for no reason.

Most people run from danger. It’s the default flight or fight response. Armed crazy people shooting indiscriminately are a damned good reason to run for cover and to keep yourself safe. CCW or not, being armed or not, you can’t account for every variable. Sometimes self-preservation means more.

383 Rocky-in-Connecticut  Jun 10, 2014 4:16:15am

re: #331 Kragar

yeah….characters like Jesus! ..oh wait..

I wonder what the sum total number of people killed trying to bring back Jesus has been?

384 Flounder  Jun 10, 2014 5:42:24am

sheep

385 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 10, 2014 5:56:03am

re: #384 Flounder

sheep

Que?

386 Flounder  Jun 10, 2014 6:04:00am

re: #385 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

sheep

387 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Jun 10, 2014 7:16:26am

re: #386 Flounder

sheep

Sheep what, or who sheep, or just basically what the hell are you talking about?

Never get the point of cryptic comments.

388 De Kolta Chair  Jun 10, 2014 7:33:35am

“The dawn of a new day. May all of our coming sacrifices be worth it.”

Good ol’ American optimism!

389 Egregious Philbin  Jun 10, 2014 8:43:11am

Interesting to see the tea party trying to hide behind the Millers being “kicked out” of the Bundy camp. They can’t get their heads around the fact that, because Bundy was so celebrated by Fox and Alex Jones, and all the sundry crazy pandering media, the Millers went to be with Bundy.

When you whip up a crowd of unbalanced people and try to legitamitize them (looking at you Hannity), you shoulldn’t be surprised when they do crazy things. The fact is, the Millers bought into this crap and needed to feed off this never ending manufactured anger.

And what came of it? 3 dead (armed) people. And, in the SAME WEEK, we had Marx try to kill cops in Georgia, and the guy in Canada kill 3 mounties. All were cut from the same cloth, angry right wing nuts, pushed over the edge.


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Detroit Local Powers First EV Charging Road in North America The road, about a mile from Local 58's hall, uses rubber-coated copper inductive-charging coils buried under the asphalt that transfer power to a receiver pad attached to a car's underbelly, much like how a phone can be charged wirelessly. ...
Backwoods Sleuth
3 days ago
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