Ferguson Police Chief Resigns Following Scathing DOJ Report

The dominos fall
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Ferguson Police Chief Tom Jackson announced his resignation today, and he’s getting a full year’s salary and health insurance despite the fact that he presided over one of the most notably corrupt police departments in the United States.

Ferguson Police Chief Tom Jackson announced Wednesday that he will resign from the leadership of a police department embroiled in scandal after the U.S. Justice Department concluded it routinely and systematically engages in racially discriminatory policing tactics.

Jackson’s resignation, which was sought for months by some community leaders and protest groups, is the third major shakeup in the St. Louis suburb’s leadership in the week since the Justice Department issued its report, which said the city’s officer’s used racially-disproportionate policing to raise revenue — targeting black residents for stops, tickets and warrants.

In the days immediately following the killing of Michael Brown, Jackson decided to plead his case on right wing radio and Fox News, which speaks volumes.

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188 comments
1 Charles Johnson  Mar 11, 2015 6:41:09pm
2 Eclectic Cyborg  Mar 11, 2015 6:41:57pm
Ferguson Police Chief Tom Jackson announced his resignation today, and he’s getting a full year’s salary and health insurance despite the fact that he presided over one of the most notably corrupt police departments in the United States.

Contrast this with a 20-year Microsoft veteran, put in an honest days work every day of his life, suddenly laid off. Benefits gone, no severance.

Just society my ass.

3 austin_blue  Mar 11, 2015 6:42:16pm

And, of course, given the fundamental lawlessness of his Department, he’ll be stripped of his pension, right?

Right?

4 Eclectic Cyborg  Mar 11, 2015 6:42:47pm

re: #1 Charles Johnson

I fail to understand how rap music would turn white kids into a bunch of racist idiots.

5 Nyet  Mar 11, 2015 6:42:56pm

re: #1 Charles Johnson

“LOOK! SQUIRREL! NOW LOOK THERE! THAT’S A RED HERRING!”

6 HappyWarrior  Mar 11, 2015 6:43:37pm

re: #1 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

I missed the part where listening to rap music by African American artists makes you want to forbid them from joining your frat. But I guess these are the same people who convinced themselves that Frozen is about lesbianism too.

7 #FergusonFireside  Mar 11, 2015 6:43:59pm

Shut the whole thing DOWN. This is just the tip of the iceberg.

Thankful as I can be to the Ferguson protesters. As Goldie said today, without them it would’ve been a local incident, not reported one day later.

8 HappyWarrior  Mar 11, 2015 6:44:38pm

re: #7 #FergusonFireside

Shut the whole thing DOWN. This is just the tip of the iceberg.

Thankful as I can be to the Ferguson protesters. As Goldie said today, without them it would’ve been a local incident, not reported one day later.

Yes, they made this a national issue rather than a blurb.

9 jaunte  Mar 11, 2015 6:45:05pm

re: #1 Charles Johnson

From a 2003 puff piece about Joe Scarborough:

Perhaps the hottest things have gotten was when Mr. Scarborough raised the issue of a controversial comment Mr. O’Reilly was recently reported to have made at an inner-city fund-raiser he was M.C.’ing. (Referring to a group of students who were late, Mr. O’Reilly had said, “I hope they’re not in the parking lot stealing our hubcaps.”) Mr. Scarborough brought this up with a guest, The Washington Post ‘s Lloyd Grove, who had reported the O’Reilly comment. For just mentioning the incident, Mr. Scarborough felt heat from the right.
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10 Nyet  Mar 11, 2015 6:45:44pm

Hmm. Apparently Putin hasn’t been seen in public for a week now.

newsru.com

11 #FergusonFireside  Mar 11, 2015 6:45:54pm

re: #8 HappyWarrior

Yes, they made this a national issue rather than a blurb.

OU’s President mentioned Ferguson. It is everywhere. And it is bullshit.

12 Charles Johnson  Mar 11, 2015 6:46:31pm
13 #FergusonFireside  Mar 11, 2015 6:46:42pm
14 A Cranky One  Mar 11, 2015 6:47:13pm

re: #10 Nyet

Hmm. Apparently Putin hasn’t been seen in public for a week now.

newsru.com

He’s out with OJ looking for the real killers. //////

15 Charles Johnson  Mar 11, 2015 6:47:52pm
16 Varek Raith  Mar 11, 2015 6:47:55pm

Witchcraft of conquered peoples
/Rotating title nominee

17 HappyWarrior  Mar 11, 2015 6:48:30pm

re: #12 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Dean Ginger Dickhead,
When you stop posting the musings and rants of deranged Neo-Nazi and Anti-Semitic clowns who repeatedly engage in actual dehumanization than we can talk. Until then kindly shut the fuck up about dehumanization.
- Your concerned SJW/”parasite”

18 Nyet  Mar 11, 2015 6:48:37pm

re: #14 A Cranky One

There is anonymous info that he is ill.

19 klys (maker of Silmarils)  Mar 11, 2015 6:48:56pm

re: #2 Eclectic Cyborg

Contrast this with a 20-year Microsoft veteran, put in an honest days work every day of his life, suddenly laid off. Benefits gone, no severance.

Just society my ass.

In before the comment on unions.

Because actually, that would be an argument for why the Microsoft employee could use a union.

20 Belafon  Mar 11, 2015 6:49:28pm

re: #7 #FergusonFireside

Shut the whole thing DOWN. This is just the tip of the iceberg.

Thankful as I can be to the Ferguson protesters. As Goldie said today, without them it would’ve been a local incident, not reported one day later.

And the reason i will never dis twitter.

21 HappyWarrior  Mar 11, 2015 6:50:46pm

re: #15 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

I guess it’s like when Glenn Beck tried to make it into a negative and got some backlash from Catholics. Social justice? Yeah you mean wanting all people to get treated fairly? That’s a bad thing? Maybe if you’re a reactionary right wing asshole who can’t get over the 13th-15th amendments and the 19th amendment but to the rest of us, I’d wear that as a badge of honor. I’d much rather be a SJW than a conservative. Conservatives don’t seem to see the merits of progress and reactionaries like Chuckles see it as wrong.

22 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge  Mar 11, 2015 6:52:33pm

re: #18 Nyet

There is anonymous info that he is ill.

Better check for polonium….

23 HappyWarrior  Mar 11, 2015 6:53:07pm

re: #18 Nyet

There is anonymous info that he is ill.

Cancer perhaps?

24 GlutenFreeJesus  Mar 11, 2015 6:53:23pm

Dude should be in prison. How many residents of the town he’s supposed to protect were assaulted, harrassed, KILLED because of his (lack of) leadership? *spit*

25 jaunte  Mar 11, 2015 6:56:15pm
26 The Mother Of All Pies  Mar 11, 2015 6:56:16pm

re: #2 Eclectic Cyborg

Contrast this with a 20-year Microsoft veteran, put in an honest days work every day of his life, suddenly laid off. Benefits gone, no severance.

Just society my ass.

But before he goes, has to train his H1B replacement.

27 Targetpractice  Mar 11, 2015 6:56:48pm

re: #19 klys (maker of Silmarils)

In before the comment on unions.

Because actually, that would be an argument for why the Microsoft employee could use a union.

Speaking of which, I wonder how Roorda is responding to this, since he was declaring the DOJ report a “flimsy tortilla” just a few days ago.

28 The Mother Of All Pies  Mar 11, 2015 6:56:53pm

re: #4 Eclectic Cyborg

I fail to understand how rap music would turn white kids into a bunch of racist idiots.

That tune is not rap music.

29 Nyet  Mar 11, 2015 6:57:13pm

re: #22 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge

Better check for polonium….

There are two levels of anon info on this.
The more “believable” level is Reuters’ anonymous source that simply says that Putin is not well.
The less believable is a purely anon source on RusMonitor that says that rumors are circulating among the doctors of the Central Clinical Hospital that Putin’s had a stroke.
Whatever it is, it seems significant, because on 11.03 there was supposed to be the signing of a treaty between RF and South Ossetia, and it was canceled without any reason given, so that even pro-govt media like Vzglyad can’t explain what happened.

But I guess Putin will show himself in public again tomorrow, because anything else would be too good to be true, IYKWIM.

30 Great White Snark  Mar 11, 2015 6:58:14pm

Hooray the chief is gone. Now about that next several levels of upper and middle command… More please.

31 Eclectic Cyborg  Mar 11, 2015 6:58:31pm

re: #25 jaunte

Oh shit…here we go again?

32 jaunte  Mar 11, 2015 6:58:41pm
33 WhatEVs  Mar 11, 2015 6:59:18pm

re: #12 Charles Johnson

What’s a SJW?

34 HappyWarrior  Mar 11, 2015 7:00:15pm

re: #33 WhatEVs

What’s a SJW?

Soclal Justice Warrior. One of those anti-American rabble rausers that actually believes that people should be treated fairly regardless of gender, race, or sex orientation. You know a communist.// As opposed to a real American who just believes in FREEDOM.

35 A Cranky One  Mar 11, 2015 7:00:45pm

re: #26 The Mother Of All Pies

But before he goes, has to train his H1B replacement.

Been there, done that. Was actually told that my performance evaluation would be based in part on how well the replacement was trained.

But we were considered management so we couldn’t unionize. Freedom!

36 austin_blue  Mar 11, 2015 7:00:46pm

re: #29 Nyet

There are two levels of anon info on this.
The more “believable” level is Reuters’ anonymous source that simply says that Putin is not well.
The less believable is a purely anon source on RusMonitor that says the rumors are circulating among the doctors of the Central Clinical Hospital that Putin’s had a stroke.
Whatever it is, it seems significant, because on 11.03 there was supposed to be the signing of a treaty between RF and South Ossetia, and it was canceled without any reason given, so that even pro-govt media like Vzglyad can’t explain what happened.

But I guess Putin will show himself in public again, because anything else would be too good to be true, IYKWIM.

Note that Sergey uses European notation. 11.03 is March 11th. And his missing that signing is a very big deal.

37 HappyWarrior  Mar 11, 2015 7:01:16pm

It’s kind of like when they tried to make President Obama being a community organizer out to be a bad thing in his younger days. Wait so you have a problem with someone trying to improve a community? I thought you guys were always accusing liberals of being all talk and no action when a CO does a lot.

38 Nyet  Mar 11, 2015 7:03:09pm

But the jokes are already pouring in.

39 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge  Mar 11, 2015 7:03:13pm

Jeez, you just know if anything happens to Vlad the Pooh, it will somehow be Obama’s fault.

40 A Cranky One  Mar 11, 2015 7:03:43pm

re: #39 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge

Jeez, you just know if anything happens to Vlad the Pooh, it will somehow be Obama’s fault.

Thanks Obama!

41 jaunte  Mar 11, 2015 7:03:46pm
42 dog philosopher ஐஒஔ௸  Mar 11, 2015 7:03:49pm

and where are the Social Justice Warrior League of America superhero t-shirts and comic books?

43 austin_blue  Mar 11, 2015 7:05:00pm

re: #37 HappyWarrior

It’s kind of like when they tried to make President Obama being a community organizer out to be a bad thing in his younger days. Wait so you have a problem with someone trying to improve a community? I thought you guys were always accusing liberals of being all talk and no action when a CO does a lot.

To be a modern Conservative requires you to embrace three contradictory ideas as true facts before breakfast.

44 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge  Mar 11, 2015 7:05:38pm

re: #42 dog philosopher ஐஒஔ௸

and where are the Social Justice Warrior League of America superhero t-shirts and comic books?

You’ll win the costume contest if you can get Penny to dress as Wonder Woman….

45 Targetpractice  Mar 11, 2015 7:06:22pm

re: #37 HappyWarrior

It’s kind of like when they tried to make President Obama being a community organizer out to be a bad thing in his younger days. Wait so you have a problem with someone trying to improve a community? I thought you guys were always accusing liberals of being all talk and no action when a CO does a lot.

You have to read between the lines sometimes. They believe that if there’s any community organizing to be done, then it should be done through a church. People like the President who help the poor and disadvantaged, particularly by making them aware of the things they’re entitled to as citizens and can help fix their lives, are “socialists” because they’re not preaching that people should just grab their bootstraps and lift themselves up.

46 WhatEVs  Mar 11, 2015 7:07:43pm

re: #34 HappyWarrior

Thanks! I saw that after posting the question.

I’m a SJW. Who knew?

47 jaunte  Mar 11, 2015 7:08:47pm
48 austin_blue  Mar 11, 2015 7:09:18pm

re: #38 Nyet

But the jokes are already pouring in.

[Embedded content]

You’ll have to fill us in. Are they better than the one’s about Brezhnev’s eyebrows?

49 A Cranky One  Mar 11, 2015 7:09:48pm

re: #42 dog philosopher ஐஒஔ௸

and where are the Social Justice Warrior League of America superhero t-shirts and comic books?

What size?

50 HappyWarrior  Mar 11, 2015 7:10:22pm

re: #45 Targetpractice

You have to read between the lines sometimes. They believe that if there’s any community organizing to be done, then it should be done through a church. People like the President who help the poor and disadvantaged, particularly by making them aware of the things they’re entitled to as citizens and can help fix their lives, are “socialists” because they’re not preaching that people should just grab their bootstraps and lift themselves up.

True, true. It’s just a stupid put down though.

51 HappyWarrior  Mar 11, 2015 7:10:41pm

re: #43 austin_blue

To be a modern Conservative requires you to embrace three contradictory ideas as true facts before breakfast.

Pretty impressive stuff.

52 WhatEVs  Mar 11, 2015 7:10:44pm

re: #44 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge

You’ll win the costume contest if you can get Penny to dress as Wonder Woman….

With the black wig!!

53 Nyet  Mar 11, 2015 7:10:59pm

re: #48 austin_blue

You’ll have to fill us in. Are they better than the one’s about Brezhnev’s eyebrows?

This one I don’t fully get myself, but I guess it’s something like “meet your new president” (That’s Ramzan Kadyrov on the photo).

54 dog philosopher ஐஒஔ௸  Mar 11, 2015 7:13:05pm

re: #49 A Cranky One

What size?

want!

55 WhatEVs  Mar 11, 2015 7:13:30pm

re: #50 HappyWarrior

True, true. It’s just a stupid put down though.

Conservatives aren’t known for their brilliance. Or sense of humor. Or tolerance. Or integrity. Or honesty. Or… Or… Or….

56 jaunte  Mar 11, 2015 7:13:53pm
57 dog philosopher ஐஒஔ௸  Mar 11, 2015 7:14:09pm

re: #49 A Cranky One

What size?

holy shit, social justice batman!!

google.com

58 Targetpractice  Mar 11, 2015 7:14:21pm

re: #50 HappyWarrior

True, true. It’s just a stupid put down though.

Not to people who believe poverty is itself or the result of a moral failing, and thus helping the poor is something that a church should do by getting people back on the “moral” path. Helping people without first beating into their heads that they’re the cause of their poverty and thus must suffer unless they get right with God is viewed as “perpetuating the cycle.”

59 HappyWarrior  Mar 11, 2015 7:15:26pm

re: #58 Targetpractice

Not to people who believe poverty is itself or the result of a moral failing, and thus helping the poor is something that a church should do by getting people back on the “moral” path. Helping people without first beating into their heads that they’re the cause of their poverty and thus must suffer unless they get right with God is viewed as “perpetuating the cycle.”

Yeah I guess so. I really underestimate the influence of Calvin on their mindset.

60 jaunte  Mar 11, 2015 7:15:41pm

re: #58 Targetpractice

without first beating into their heads that they’re the cause of their poverty and thus must suffer unless they get right with God

This is why the help must be dribbled out sparingly.

61 Charles Johnson  Mar 11, 2015 7:15:59pm

I realize this is supposed to be “inspiring,” but I have to say it irritates the shit out of me when rich privileged hucksters pretend to have a direct line to a deity.

Now resisting the impulse to tweet something really insulting to this asshole. Because I know a lot of people would take it the wrong way.

62 jaunte  Mar 11, 2015 7:16:52pm

God put Joel Osteen here to get his teeth whitened.

63 jaunte  Mar 11, 2015 7:17:15pm

I’d say he’s done.

64 thedopefishlives  Mar 11, 2015 7:18:22pm

re: #61 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

I realize this is supposed to be “inspiring,” but I have to say it irritates the shit out of me when rich privileged hucksters pretend to have a direct line to a deity.

Now resisting the impulse to tweet something really insulting to this asshole. Because I know a lot of people would take it the wrong way.

As far as I’m concerned, Osteen can eat a bag of dicks. Even in Christian circles, he is not very highly regarded except by a hardcore subset of wingnuts.

65 Nyet  Mar 11, 2015 7:18:32pm

Chuck retweets Roosh.
Roosh tweets a link to Steve Sailer’s piece “Are Jews Losing Control of the Media?”

66 HappyWarrior  Mar 11, 2015 7:19:20pm

re: #65 Nyet

Chuck retweets Roosh.
Roosh tweets a link to Steve Sailer’s piece “Are Jews Losing Control of the Media?”

He just likes alternative perspectives that’s all. Turner Diaries? Just a different perspective ya know.

67 jaunte  Mar 11, 2015 7:21:01pm
68 jaunte  Mar 11, 2015 7:21:42pm

“Country Club Hills” police department.

69 jaunte  Mar 11, 2015 7:22:44pm

Population 1,274
en.wikipedia.org

70 BeachDem  Mar 11, 2015 7:23:15pm

re: #21 HappyWarrior

I guess it’s like when Glenn Beck tried to make it into a negative and got some backlash from Catholics. Social justice? Yeah you mean wanting all people to get treated fairly? That’s a bad thing? Maybe if you’re a reactionary right wing asshole who can’t get over the 13th-15th amendments and the 19th amendment but to the rest of us, I’d wear that as a badge of honor. I’d much rather be a SJW than a conservative. Conservatives don’t seem to see the merits of progress and reactionaries like Chuckles see it as wrong.

Yeah, I don’t get it. I think it’s a compliment to be called a Social Justice Warrior (although I’m not crazy about the word warrior.) Who would think it was a bad thing to fight for social justice—other than a right-wing asshole.

71 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate  Mar 11, 2015 7:23:28pm

re: #12 Charles Johnson

Freedom is tyranny. War is peace. Non-offensive language is racist. Makes perfect sense.

72 Joe Bacon  Mar 11, 2015 7:24:23pm

re: #61 Charles Johnson

Joel 0$teen is the King of the Pulpit Pimps.

73 Targetpractice  Mar 11, 2015 7:24:58pm

re: #61 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

I realize this is supposed to be “inspiring,” but I have to say it irritates the shit out of me when rich privileged hucksters pretend to have a direct line to a deity.

Now resisting the impulse to tweet something really insulting to this asshole. Because I know a lot of people would take it the wrong way.

That has gotta be one of my biggest berserk buttons: “God has a plan.” Because it assumes that you have no free will, that whatever you do is part of a grand plan that was laid out eons ago. And that nothing you do matters because the results have been preordained.

74 HappyWarrior  Mar 11, 2015 7:25:40pm

re: #72 Joe Bacon

Joel 0$teen is the King of the Pulpit Pimps.

Prosperity gospel guy right?

75 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate  Mar 11, 2015 7:27:07pm

re: #74 HappyWarrior

Prosperity gospel guy right?

Osteentatiously

76 jaunte  Mar 11, 2015 7:29:02pm
77 BeachDem  Mar 11, 2015 7:29:55pm

re: #73 Targetpractice

That has gotta be one of my biggest berserk buttons: “God has a plan.” Because it assumes that you have no free will, that whatever you do is part of a grand plan that was laid out eons ago. And that nothing you do matters because the results have been preordained.

And that God shared it with Joel Osteen, of all people. Uh huh.

78 Romantic Heretic  Mar 11, 2015 7:30:38pm

re: #73 Targetpractice

That has gotta be one of my biggest berserk buttons: “God has a plan.” Because it assumes that you have no free will, that whatever you do is part of a grand plan that was laid out eons ago. And that nothing you do matters because the results have been preordained.

Isn’t that pretty much Calvinism wrapped up in a single paragraph?

79 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate  Mar 11, 2015 7:31:12pm

re: #15 Charles Johnson

You did catch UpChuck criticizing U Oklahoma for Affirmative Action practices they abandoned three years ago, right? He found some report by a RW think tank dated 2012, and used it to demonstrate that the REAL RACISM at Oklahoma was not the drunken frat boys using the n-word, but admission policies that gave non-whites a leg up in admissions.

Oh, the horror!

Here’s the kicker. He buried in his story that the policies were abandoned, then suggested they are still being used — no evidence offered.

Naturally, gotnwes.com blogged it.

80 HappyWarrior  Mar 11, 2015 7:31:35pm

re: #75 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate

Osteentatiously

Those disgust me big time. It’s basically if you’re wealthy, it’s because God has blessed you and if you’re poor, you deserve it.

81 A Cranky One  Mar 11, 2015 7:31:42pm

re: #77 BeachDem

And that God shared it with Joel Osteen, of all people. Uh huh.

God sometimes confuses prophet with profit. English isn’t his first language after all.

82 jaunte  Mar 11, 2015 7:31:53pm

re: #73 Targetpractice

you have no free will, that whatever you do is part of a grand plan that was laid out eons ago

Not sure how they turn the corner from that to “now give me a tenth of your income.”

83 HappyWarrior  Mar 11, 2015 7:32:10pm

re: #78 Romantic Heretic

Isn’t that pretty much Calvinism wrapped up in a single paragraph?

Yep though some Lizards more versed in the subject have explained that even that was too far for Calvin even somewhat.

84 thedopefishlives  Mar 11, 2015 7:33:01pm

re: #73 Targetpractice

That has gotta be one of my biggest berserk buttons: “God has a plan.” Because it assumes that you have no free will, that whatever you do is part of a grand plan that was laid out eons ago. And that nothing you do matters because the results have been preordained.

To be fair, a lot of us Christians believe that God has a plan, but that we are perfectly capable of ignoring it and going our way because God does not force us to obey. Mr. Osteen, however, has to pimp his prosperity gospel for all it’s worth, and that requires that there be some tangible benefit for following his - er, I mean, God’s - plan.

85 HappyWarrior  Mar 11, 2015 7:33:08pm

And God said on to him, give that minister down the road who is worth ten million bucks a little more even though you need the money to put your children through college.

86 A Cranky One  Mar 11, 2015 7:33:24pm

re: #80 HappyWarrior

Those disgust me big time. It’s basically if you’re wealthy, it’s because God has blessed you and if you’re poor, you deserve it.

Just remember, the only way to get blessed is to keep tithing! /////

87 HappyWarrior  Mar 11, 2015 7:33:48pm

re: #86 A Cranky One

Just remember, the only way to get blessed is to keep tithing! /////

The Robertson method.

88 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate  Mar 11, 2015 7:34:05pm

re: #78 Romantic Heretic

Isn’t that pretty much Calvinism wrapped up in a single paragraph?

It’s a powerful tool in the right hands. “Oh, your gay son died of AIDS? It was God’s plan.” “Oh, you went bankrupt and lost your house? It was God’s plan.” A tornado came and killed your entire family. It was God”s plan.”

To avoid future calamities, pray a lot and, oh, by the way, tithe 10% or more to us!

89 austin_blue  Mar 11, 2015 7:34:35pm

re: #61 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

I realize this is supposed to be “inspiring,” but I have to say it irritates the shit out of me when rich privileged hucksters pretend to have a direct line to a deity.

Now resisting the impulse to tweet something really insulting to this asshole. Because I know a lot of people would take it the wrong way.

Joel Osteen’s “church” is the former arena where the Houston Rockets played basketball.

90 calochortus  Mar 11, 2015 7:35:05pm

re: #86 A Cranky One

Just remember, the only way to get blessed is to keep tithing! /////

“Send me that $20 you owe God.”
Actual quote from radio evangelist a few decades ago. Now he’d probably want $100.

91 thedopefishlives  Mar 11, 2015 7:35:47pm

re: #86 A Cranky One

Just remember, the only way to get blessed is to keep tithing! /////

See, this is what presses my berserk button. The church is not a for-profit entity. The tithe is supposed to be used to further the church’s work, not to buy the pastor a private jet and a pimped-out Lincoln.

92 HappyWarrior  Mar 11, 2015 7:36:22pm

I think it’s an old Onion article in one of their earlier compilations but there’s a story about Oral Roberts being struck down by God for not raising enough money.

93 Nyet  Mar 11, 2015 7:37:17pm
Basically, Calvinism is known by an acronym: T.U.L.I.P.

Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)

94 HappyWarrior  Mar 11, 2015 7:37:23pm

re: #91 thedopefishlives

See, this is what presses my berserk button. The church is not a for-profit entity. The tithe is supposed to be used to further the church’s work, not to buy the pastor a private jet and a pimped-out Lincoln.

Exactly. My great uncle was a parish priest. He didn’t live like a movie star.

95 Targetpractice  Mar 11, 2015 7:38:09pm

re: #84 thedopefishlives

To be fair, a lot of us Christians believe that God has a plan, but that we are perfectly capable of ignoring it and going our way because God does not force us to obey. Mr. Osteen, however, has to pimp his prosperity gospel for all it’s worth, and that requires that there be some tangible benefit for following his - er, I mean, God’s - plan.

True enough. I think what turns me off so much about evangelists is it’s hard sometimes to tell where the dividing line between them and cultists are. That idea that they have a direct line to the Almighty and thus know all the answers, but you gotta put a little more money in the plate before they’ll let you in on them.

96 Charles Johnson  Mar 11, 2015 7:38:53pm
97 thedopefishlives  Mar 11, 2015 7:39:00pm

re: #95 Targetpractice

True enough. I think what turns me off so much about evangelists is it’s hard sometimes to tell where the dividing line between them and cultists are. That idea that they have a direct line to the Almighty and thus know all the answers, but you gotta put a little more money in the plate before they’ll let you in on them.

Which is absurd on its face, because the basic premise of Christianity is that anyone can have a direct line to God. No special mumbo-jumbo required.

98 A Cranky One  Mar 11, 2015 7:39:09pm

re: #92 HappyWarrior

I think it’s an old Onion article in one of their earlier compilations but there’s a story about Oral Roberts being struck down by God for not raising enough money.

He didn’t need the Onion.

Roberts’ fundraising was controversial. In January 1987, during a fundraising drive, Roberts announced to a television audience that unless he raised $8 million by that March, God would “call him home.” [37][38] However, the year before on Easter he had told a gathering at the Dallas Convention Center that God had instructed him to raise the money “by the end of the year” or he would die.[39] Regardless of this new March deadline and the fact that he was still $4.5 million short of his goal,[40] some were fearful that he was referring to suicide, given the impassioned pleas and tears that accompanied his statement. He raised $9.1 million.[41] Later that year, he announced that God had raised the dead through Roberts’ ministry Wikipedia

99 austin_blue  Mar 11, 2015 7:39:26pm

re: #94 HappyWarrior

Exactly. My great uncle was a parish priest. He didn’t live like a movie star.

Didn’t know how to work the grift, your great uncle.

100 HappyWarrior  Mar 11, 2015 7:40:35pm

re: #99 austin_blue

Didn’t know how to work the grift, your great uncle.

Haha I don’t know. I never knew the man.

101 HappyWarrior  Mar 11, 2015 7:41:23pm

Pat Robertson and his ilk are just modern day Charles Ponzi’s. It really is sick to see Robertson begging poor widows to give him their money.

102 austin_blue  Mar 11, 2015 7:41:27pm

re: #96 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Well, now you’re just baiting him.

I’m popping corn and sitting back…

103 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate  Mar 11, 2015 7:41:53pm

re: #96 Charles Johnson

There may be reasons for his behavior. There are no excuses for it.

104 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate  Mar 11, 2015 7:42:42pm

re: #102 austin_blue

Well, now you’re just baiting him.

I’m popping corn and sitting back…

Charles just wants Chuck to call him “honey.” //

105 GlutenFreeJesus  Mar 11, 2015 7:44:57pm

re: #61 Charles Johnson

God’s a kid with an ant farm, lady. He’s not planning anything.

106 team_fukit  Mar 11, 2015 7:45:17pm

Osteen got it honest, too. Inherited his daddy’s church. He’s sooo sure God has a plan for your suffering.

107 Nyet  Mar 11, 2015 7:45:59pm

re: #105 GlutenFreeJesus

God’s a kid with an ant farm and a magnifying glass, lady. He’s not planning anything.

ftfy

108 Charles Johnson  Mar 11, 2015 7:46:22pm

re: #102 austin_blue

Was it that obvious? ;)

109 Feline Fearless Leader  Mar 11, 2015 7:46:59pm

Good evening Lizards from cloudy Byron, GA.

Spent yesterday and part of today between Pensacola, FL and Mobile, AL. Visited a battleship, Dauphin Island (aquarium), rode a ferry, watched on a Gulf Coast beach, and visited the Naval Aviation Museum. Then drove about six hours to get up near Macon, GA. (losing an hour due to going from Central to Eastern time enroute.) Many pictures taken.

Tomorrow’s plan is starting geology activities if the weather permits.

110 austin_blue  Mar 11, 2015 7:47:24pm

re: #104 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate

Charles just wants Chuck to call him “honey.” //

Here’s what I want to see (put a ginger wig on that man!!)

…

111 WhatEVs  Mar 11, 2015 7:47:45pm
112 Targetpractice  Mar 11, 2015 7:48:13pm

re: #97 thedopefishlives

Which is absurd on its face, because the basic premise of Christianity is that anyone can have a direct line to God. No special mumbo-jumbo required.

My boss at my last job passed on that bit of knowledge to me years ago, which has stuck with me because he was such a unique guy. He was a Persian, born and raised in Iran til he left in ‘77, and he’d lived in America ever since. And even though he told me he was Muslim, he had to be the most liberal Muslim I’ve ever met. Never had more than a mustache and some stubble, never prayed during the day, was known to sneak a piece of ham ever now and then, and came to work on more than one occasion with a hangover. Yet he had a dog-eared Koran at his desk, and he used to ask me from time to time about any good churchs in the area.

Worked with that guy for 10 years and, if the shop was still open, probably would still be working for him. Yeah, the pay wasn’t great and the hours stank on ice, but I still liked the guy enough to stay.

113 austin_blue  Mar 11, 2015 7:48:30pm

re: #108 Charles Johnson

Was it that obvious? ;)

That’s VALUE for our Entertainment Dollar!

114 Targetpractice  Mar 11, 2015 7:49:09pm

re: #111 WhatEVs

[Embedded content]

Day late, dollar short.

115 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate  Mar 11, 2015 7:50:50pm

re: #112 Targetpractice

My boss at my last job passed on that bit of knowledge to me years ago, which has stuck with me because he was such a unique guy. He was a Persian, born and raised in Iran til he left in ‘77, and he’d lived in America ever since. And even though he told me he was Muslim, he had to be the most liberal Muslim I’ve ever met. Never had more than a mustache and some stubble, never prayed during the day, was known to sneak a piece of ham ever now and then, and came to work on more than one occasion with a hangover. Yet he had a dog-eared Koran at his desk, and he used to ask me from time to time about any good churchs in the area.

Worked with that guy for 10 years and, if the shop was still open, probably would still be working for him. Yeah, the pay wasn’t great and the hours stank on ice, but I still liked the guy enough to stay.

Sufi?

116 Amory Blaine  Mar 11, 2015 7:51:11pm

A grown-ass man pooping on the floor raises red flags.

117 Targetpractice  Mar 11, 2015 7:52:00pm

re: #115 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate

Sufi?

I think he might have been, never really probed the subject more than the occasional philosophical discussion when business was slow.

118 A Cranky One  Mar 11, 2015 7:52:02pm

re: #99 austin_blue

I’ve met many clergy (of different faiths) who were admirable, amazing people. For example, a nun who devised a formula, using locally available ingredients, to re-hydrate sick infants and traveled Africa teaching it to the locals. Dehydration from sickness is a very common cause of death among infants and children; don’t know how many lives she saved. I could go on for quite a while listing others who dedicated their lives not only to their god but to humanity.

I detest the grifters, con men and those who protect the church (institution) instead of the church (people). But I don’t use a broad brush. Know them by their actions instead of their words.

119 BlueGrl21  Mar 11, 2015 7:53:30pm

re: #64 thedopefishlives

As far as I’m concerned, Osteen can eat a bag of dicks. Even in Christian circles, he is not very highly regarded except by a hardcore subset of wingnuts.

Prosperity Gospel. Otherwise known as “manning the tables at the temple, waiting for Jesus to kick your ass.”

When I want to see my Episcopalian priest work himself into a spittle-filled rant, I bring up Joel. He loses all sense of dignity and rants like a drunken uncle at Thanksgiving. It’s awesome.

120 William Barnett-Lewis  Mar 11, 2015 7:54:54pm

re: #93 Nyet

I read a revision of that the other day:

T = Triune Love
U = Universal Election
L = Limitless Reconciliation
I = Inspiring Grace
P = Passionate Saints.

Not sure it makes any difference to a non-believer but to me the shift in emphasis is rather more interesting than Calvin’s errors.

121 HappyWarrior  Mar 11, 2015 7:55:08pm

It’s ironic to me at least to see evangelical Protestants, the same sects founded because they thought the RCC was getting too greedy become just that themselves.

122 dog philosopher ஐஒஔ௸  Mar 11, 2015 7:56:33pm

re: #120 William Barnett-Lewis

I read a revision of that the other day:

T = Triune Love
U = Universal Election
L = Limitless Reconciliation
I = Inspiring Grace
P = Passionate Saints.

Not sure it makes any difference to a non-believer but to me the shift in emphasis is rather more interesting than the Calvin’s errors.

i wonder where all that jesus stuff about the least of these fell through the grate and got disappeared you know practical stuff like taking care of the sick and food and things

123 Feline Fearless Leader  Mar 11, 2015 7:56:47pm
We’re Not in Kansas anymore Toto!

Grocery store sighting this afternoon.

124 goddamnedfrank  Mar 11, 2015 7:57:06pm

He’s just getting his feet wet. This is how it starts, with “follow the money.” Soon he’ll start openly talking about how “they control everything.”

125 William Barnett-Lewis  Mar 11, 2015 7:57:22pm

re: #119 BlueGrl21

Prosperity Gospel. Otherwise known as “manning the tables at the temple, waiting for Jesus to kick your ass.”

When I want to see my Episcopalian priest work himself into a spittle-filled rant, I bring up Joel. He loses all sense of dignity and rants like a drunken uncle at Thanksgiving. It’s awesome.

Heh. My (Episcopalian as well) priest doesn’t get that way but opposing the Prosperity Gospel Heresy has inspired several of his best sermons.

126 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate  Mar 11, 2015 7:58:34pm

I wish American TV presenters would do this with some politicians here.

Lebanese TV presenter cuts short interview with Islamist scholar

Rima Karaki tells London-based Sheikh Hani Al-Siba’i: ‘In this studio, I run the show,’ during tense exchange on al-Jadeed TV about Islamic State

Go to link to see English-captioned video.

127 William Barnett-Lewis  Mar 11, 2015 7:59:21pm

re: #122 dog philosopher ஐஒஔ௸

i wonder where all that jesus stuff about the least of these fell through the grate and got disappeared you know practical stuff like taking care of the sick and food and things

That’s why I work on that essay of mine that Orthopraxy (right actions) is far more important than Orthodoxy (right belief) to actually being the kind of person Jesus wanted us to be. Hopefully I’ll get it done one of these days…

128 austin_blue  Mar 11, 2015 8:00:48pm

re: #118 A Cranky One

I’ve met many clergy (of different faiths) who were admirable, amazing people. For example, a nun who devised a formula, using locally available ingredients, to re-hydrate sick infants and traveled Africa teaching it to the locals. Dehydration from sickness is a very common cause of death among infants and children; don’t know how many lives she saved. I could go on for quite a while listing others who dedicated their lives not only to their god but to humanity.

I detest the grifters, con men and those who protect the church (institution) instead of the church (people). But I don’t use a broad brush. Know them by their actions instead of their words.

I have great respect for People of Faith of all religions who do good works for those who need them, as long as it is apolitical.

I have no respect for grifters who utilize any religion as a profit center to take advantage of the gullible.

And I have no dog in the hunt. I’m a Deist. It’s a maybe yes/maybe no dichotomy for me, but it does not require an active God. There is too much pain in this world for that to make sense.

I don’t see a lot of difference between Theists and Atheists. It takes a tremendous amount of blind faith to believe in either position.

129 HappyWarrior  Mar 11, 2015 8:01:19pm

re: #127 William Barnett-Lewis

That’s why I work on that essay of mine that Orthopraxy (right actions) is far more important than Orthodoxy (right belief) to actually being the kind of person Jesus wanted us to be. Hopefully I’ll get it done one of these days…

Please do link to it when you post it. Should be a good read. I’m not a religious person myself but I really respect people like yourself who value actions more so than beliefs. That’s the one thing that has always bothered me about Evangelicalism.

130 Feline Fearless Leader  Mar 11, 2015 8:01:40pm

Walking on beach near Fort Morgan* near sunset when a Great Blue Heron just flies down and lands on the beach. Couldn’t get much closer than this, and I used the iPhone since I was afraid that getting the regular camera out would scare it away.

* - Fort Morgan is on the east side of the main entrance to Mobile Bay. Historically famous from the US Civil War.

131 austin_blue  Mar 11, 2015 8:02:52pm

re: #124 goddamnedfrank

[Embedded content]

He’s just getting his feet wet. This is how it starts, with “follow the money.” Soon he’ll start openly talking about how “they control everything.”

Bilderbergers…New World Order…

132 Amory Blaine  Mar 11, 2015 8:04:56pm

re: #123 Feline Fearless Leader

I’d eat that whole jar in a drunken frenzy, sucking every pig knuckle dry.

133 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate  Mar 11, 2015 8:05:10pm

re: #126 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate

TV host says positive reaction to her cutting off rude guest surprised her.

Karaki said she had not expected the video of her standing up to Sibai to cause a furore. But it did, bringing her an avalanche of support online and in the local press. She said she believed it had had a positive impact, particularly in patriarchal societies, where she said female journalists faced many more challenges than their male colleagues.

“Some people think men have a birthright to exert control over women, but there are a lot of women now who are breaking this image and a lot of men who support this, although more so for women because we have a patriarchal society,” she said. “I don’t feel like a hero, I feel like any man or woman with self-respect.

“I don’t think any man would accept that his wife gets insulted and doesn’t respond, or his mother gets insulted and doesn’t respond, or his daughter. He doesn’t have to respond on her behalf, too. She can do that. If he gets out of the way, he would be surprised that she can stand up for herself.”

Karaki said the positive response to the video gave her hope that these patriarchal tendencies could be controlled, and that women in the media in particular could play a strong role in reversing them.

theguardian.com

I like this woman.

134 GlutenFreeJesus  Mar 11, 2015 8:06:00pm

re: #107 Nyet

I don’t even think God cares enough about us to even pay attention.

135 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate  Mar 11, 2015 8:06:13pm

re: #123 Feline Fearless Leader

My mom liked them, and sometimes would bring home a jar when I was a kid.

136 calochortus  Mar 11, 2015 8:07:05pm

re: #128 austin_blue

I don’t see a lot of difference between Theists and Atheists. It takes a tremendous amount of blind faith to believe in either position.

Atheists don’t believe in a deity. We don’t necessarily believe there is no deity. We just don’t see evidence for it.

137 BeachDem  Mar 11, 2015 8:08:58pm

re: #92 HappyWarrior

I think it’s an old Onion article in one of their earlier compilations but there’s a story about Oral Roberts being struck down by God for not raising enough money.

Not the onion, Roberts himself.

Roberts’ fundraising was controversial. In January 1987, during a fundraising drive, Roberts announced to a television audience that unless he raised $8 million by that March, God would “call him home.”

138 wheat-dogghazi-mailgate  Mar 11, 2015 8:10:01pm

re: #137 BeachDem

Not the onion, Roberts himself.

Roberts’ fundraising was controversial. In January 1987, during a fundraising drive, Roberts announced to a television audience that unless he raised $8 million by that March, God would “call him home.”

It’s a larger version of “I’ll hold my breath until you give me another cookie!”

139 Nyet  Mar 11, 2015 8:10:10pm

re: #128 austin_blue

Most generally, atheism is lack of belief in God, so while there are atheists who believe that there is no God, there are also those who simply don’t believe that there is one, i.e. they don’t have the faith you imply they do.

Moreover, saying that it takes as much faith to believe in God’s non-existence as to believe in the opposite claim is akin to claiming that it takes as much faith to believe in non-existence of the Invisible Pink Unicorn as to believe in its existence.

140 Kragar  Mar 11, 2015 8:10:54pm

re: #128 austin_blue

I’m agnostic. There very well could be a deity of some sort, but I don’t see any evidence of it, and no religion has the right to force its beliefs on anyone.

141 prairiefire  Mar 11, 2015 8:11:18pm

re: #109 Feline Fearless Leader

Good evening Lizards from cloudy Byron, GA.

Spent yesterday and part of today between Pensacola, FL and Mobile, AL. Visited a battleship, Dauphin Island (aquarium), rode a ferry, watched on a Gulf Coast beach, and visited the Naval Aviation Museum. Then drove about six hours to get up near Macon, GA. (losing an hour due to going from Central to Eastern time enroute.) Many pictures taken.

Tomorrow’s plan is starting geology activities if the weather permits.

Macon has some Hopewell type Indian mounds.

142 Kragar  Mar 11, 2015 8:11:36pm

re: #137 BeachDem

Not the onion, Roberts himself.

Roberts’ fundraising was controversial. In January 1987, during a fundraising drive, Roberts announced to a television audience that unless he raised $8 million by that March, God would “call him home.”

If Heaven is so awesome, why would he want to stay here?

143 Jenner7  Mar 11, 2015 8:13:25pm

So, John Huntsman Jr. is on Mike Lee’s team to get him re-elected. Whatever respect I had for him is now gone.

144 HappyWarrior  Mar 11, 2015 8:15:28pm

re: #137 BeachDem

Not the onion, Roberts himself.

Roberts’ fundraising was controversial. In January 1987, during a fundraising drive, Roberts announced to a television audience that unless he raised $8 million by that March, God would “call him home.”

Yeah I am aware of that but in the Onion story, Roberts is actually struck down by lightning and there’s a comment by God I believe.

145 Jenner7  Mar 11, 2015 8:15:48pm

Stay safe DeRay and Netta!

146 HappyWarrior  Mar 11, 2015 8:16:38pm

re: #143 Jenner7

So, John Huntsman Jr. is on Mike Lee’s team to get him re-elected. Whatever respect I had for him is now gone.

He lost mine when he started talking about gutting the EPA all together. What good are you as a Republican who accepts science if you want to get rid of an agency that does a lot of good. And to think Huntsman is a moderate in today’s GOP. Tells ya something about that party.

147 austin_blue  Mar 11, 2015 8:17:46pm

re: #136 calochortus

Atheists don’t believe in a deity. We don’t necessarily believe there is no deity. We just don’t see evidence for it.

Then you are not an Atheist. Atheist’s have no doubt. Hence the name.

If you are a yes, there is a prime mover (of any description), but that after the Big Bang it is a hands-off Deity, you are a hard Deist.

If you are maybe yes/ maybe no, but do not believe in an active God in this world, you’re a soft Deist, like me.

I judge people by their works, and the work done by any number of People of Faith, and People of No Faith, amazes me. They are living saints to me, just not in the way they have been brought up to believe. Their good works stand alone in the light of humanity, not in the light of God.

148 Nyet  Mar 11, 2015 8:18:16pm

re: #147 austin_blue

Then you are not an Atheist. Atheist’s have no doubt. Hence the name.

Bullshit.

149 jaunte  Mar 11, 2015 8:20:02pm

re: #148 Nyet

How about Meh-thodist?

150 goddamnedfrank  Mar 11, 2015 8:20:09pm

re: #140 Kragar

I’m agnostic. There very well could be a deity of some sort, but I don’t see any evidence of it, and no religion has the right to force its beliefs on anyone.

Exactly. Agnosticism is about knowing yourself, it’s not about making an assertion regarding the nature of the divine.

…

151 Charles Johnson  Mar 11, 2015 8:20:47pm

Man, this cold just won’t quit.

152 Kragar  Mar 11, 2015 8:21:00pm

And for the zealots out there who claim Atheists can’t be moral because they don’t believe in whatever mythology they choose to preach, my answer is this:

If this is the only life we get, why would you choose not to make it a better place for people to live a happy life in? If the only reason you act morally is because you’re afraid of reprisals, the question I have is what the fuck is wrong with you?

153 austin_blue  Mar 11, 2015 8:21:09pm

re: #148 Nyet

Bullshit.

re: #149 jaunte

How about Meh-thodist?

Atheism is hard work and Meh-thodism is funny as shit!

154 calochortus  Mar 11, 2015 8:21:30pm

re: #147 austin_blue

Actually, atheist includes both disbelievers and those who just don’t believe. On the other hand agnostic covers those who don’t know if there is a deity and those who feel the nature of the deity is unknowable.

Nonbelief isn’t covered well by our existing terminology.

155 goddamnedfrank  Mar 11, 2015 8:21:47pm

re: #150 goddamnedfrank

Edited: replied to wrong comment.

156 Kragar  Mar 11, 2015 8:21:55pm

re: #147 austin_blue

So any Christian who has doubts isn’t a Christian? The same goes for any belief system?

157 austin_blue  Mar 11, 2015 8:22:34pm

re: #152 Kragar

And for the zealots out there who claim Atheists can’t be moral because they don’t believe in whatever mythology they choose to preach, my answer is this:

If this is the only life we get, why would you choose not to make it a better place for people to live a happy life in? If the only reason you act morally is because you’re afraid of reprisals, the question I have is what the fuck is wrong with you?

I completely agree. People should be judged by their works, not by their faith.

158 calochortus  Mar 11, 2015 8:22:57pm

re: #149 jaunte

How about Meh-thodist?

Apathist. Don’t know, don’t care.

159 Belafon  Mar 11, 2015 8:23:30pm

re: #136 calochortus

Atheists don’t believe in a deity. We don’t necessarily believe there is no deity. We just don’t see evidence for it.

You’re describing an agnostic ( from the google query): a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.

An atheist (from wikipedia): Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, atheism is the absence of belief that any deities exist.

Neil Degrasse Tyson describes himself as an agnostic because, as he says, he hasn’t seen the evidence one way or the other.

160 austin_blue  Mar 11, 2015 8:23:57pm

re: #154 calochortus

Actually, atheist includes both disbelievers and those who just don’t believe. On the other hand agnostic covers those who don’t know if there is a deity and those who feel the nature of the deity is unknowable.

Nonbelief isn’t covered well by our existing terminology.

Agreed. I stated my opinion on a very squishy semanticism.

161 HappyWarrior  Mar 11, 2015 8:24:11pm

re: #152 Kragar

And for the zealots out there who claim Atheists can’t be moral because they don’t believe in whatever mythology they choose to preach, my answer is this:

If this is the only life we get, why would you choose not to make it a better place for people to live a happy life in? If the only reason you act morally is because you’re afraid of reprisals, the question I have is what the fuck is wrong with you?

It’s a damn good question.

162 goddamnedfrank  Mar 11, 2015 8:24:39pm

My opinion is that if you’re spending time defining the terms other people use to label their personal belief systems that’s just a little bit dickish. Let it go.

163 jaunte  Mar 11, 2015 8:25:46pm

He’s not truly a Scotsman.

164 William Barnett-Lewis  Mar 11, 2015 8:26:03pm

re: #152 Kragar

And for the zealots out there who claim Atheists can’t be moral because they don’t believe in whatever mythology they choose to preach, my answer is this:

If this is the only life we get, why would you choose not to make it a better place for people to live a happy life in? If the only reason you act morally is because you’re afraid of reprisals, the question I have is what the fuck is wrong with you?

“The Gospel is not a fire insurance policy for the next world, but a life assurance policy for this world.”
-Richard Rohr

But then anyone who worries about heaven or hell has missed the point as far as I’m concerned.

165 calochortus  Mar 11, 2015 8:26:08pm

re: #159 Belafon

You’re describing an agnostic ( from the google query): a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.

An atheist (from wikipedia): Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, atheism is the absence of belief that any deities exist.

Neil Degrasse Tyson describes himself as an agnostic because, as he says, he hasn’t seen the evidence one way or the other.

Oxford English Dictionary: atheist: A person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

166 Nyet  Mar 11, 2015 8:27:00pm

Atheists and agnostics overlap, it’s that simple. It’s a matter of emphasis too. I usually describe myself as an atheist, or, when I need a certain emphasis, as an atheistic agnostic.

167 HappyWarrior  Mar 11, 2015 8:27:33pm

If you had to press me on it, I’m probably an agnostic. I really don’t know if there is a God or not.

168 Nyet  Mar 11, 2015 8:27:42pm

(Because “weak atheist” sounds weak :P)

169 austin_blue  Mar 11, 2015 8:27:54pm

re: #156 Kragar

So any Christian who has doubts isn’t a Christian? The same goes for any belief system?

Interesting question, isn’t it?

From this retired Catholic, it’s pretty clear:

“I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.”

That’s a pretty clear on/off switch. I didn’t believe it, so I left the Church.

170 Feline Fearless Leader  Mar 11, 2015 8:29:05pm

re: #141 prairiefire

Macon has some Hopewell type Indian mounds.

Since I am traveling with two geologists I suspect the target tomorrow will be Cretaceous rock formations and not Indian mounds. ;)

I’ll probably be charged with finding a good BBQ place for lunch.

171 calochortus  Mar 11, 2015 8:29:11pm

And I hope we’ve all enjoyed another episode of Semantics Talk. Join us again next week…

172 CleverToad  Mar 11, 2015 8:29:25pm

re: #151 Charles Johnson

Can an upding count as ‘hope it gets gone sometime soon?” There’s a nasty lingering strain going around this year.

173 Belafon  Mar 11, 2015 8:29:43pm

re: #166 Nyet

Atheists and agnostics overlap, it’s that simple. It’s a matter of emphasis too. I usually describe myself as an atheist, or, when I need a certain emphasis, as an atheistic agnostic.

Which would be like me describing myself as a right-handed lefty because, while I write and play tennis left handed, I shoot pool, bows, and guns right handed (I’m actually right eyed). There’s a subtle difference. If you say you’re not sure about the existence of a deity, you are agnostic.

174 A Cranky One  Mar 11, 2015 8:29:52pm

re: #160 austin_blue
Once and a while I see a phrase and wonder to myself how many times it’s been used. So I grab the phrase and google it.

Congratulations!!!!! You are a rare winner.

“squishy semanticism” yielded no hits. I’m impressed ;)

175 Kragar  Mar 11, 2015 8:30:03pm

re: #162 goddamnedfrank

My opinion is that if you’re spending time defining the terms other people use to label their personal belief system that just a little bit dickish. Let it go.

I live under the belief that I could talk to the vast majority of men my age on the planet and we would be worried about the same things. Paying our bills, taking care of our wife and kids, being left alone so we can enjoy whatever makes us happy, and keeping away from assholes who cause trouble.

176 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi  Mar 11, 2015 8:31:15pm

re: #96 Charles Johnson

Grew up listening to Limbaugh.

177 William Barnett-Lewis  Mar 11, 2015 8:31:44pm

And of course since an interesting discussion is going on, it’s time to leave for work. I’ll check in an hour or so, hopefully.

178 Belafon  Mar 11, 2015 8:32:31pm

re: #156 Kragar

So any Christian who has doubts isn’t a Christian? The same goes for any belief system?

If you have any doubts in the existence of Jesus as the son of God and that he’s the path to heaven, then I would say you are not a Christian. If you believe that, but are always doubting whether you measure up, but try, then you are the best kind of Christian in my opinion.

179 HappyWarrior  Mar 11, 2015 8:32:58pm

re: #176 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi

[Embedded content]

Grew up listening to Limbaugh.

Yep that will do it.

180 prairiefire  Mar 11, 2015 8:35:19pm

re: #170 Feline Fearless Leader

Since I am traveling with two geologists I suspect the target tomorrow will be Cretaceous rock formations and not Indian mounds. ;)

I’ll probably be charged with finding a good BBQ place for lunch.

I have not been down that way for years, but keep an eye out for the place that has a lot of local traffic, trucks in the parking lot, etc. That is usually the tell.

181 austin_blue  Mar 11, 2015 8:35:43pm

re: #178 Belafon

If you have any doubts in the existence of Jesus as the son of God and that he’s the path to heaven, then I would say you are not a Christian. If you believe that, but are always doubting whether you measure up, but try, then you are the best kind of Christian in my opinion.

Wow. You are spot on.

182 Nyet  Mar 11, 2015 8:36:28pm

There are two levels here, two modes of conversation, if you will:

1. Yes, ultimately I don’t know whether there is God. There is no credible evidence for God’s existence but that by itself doesn’t prove his non-existence. So I’m also comfortable calling myself an agnostic. Or better yet, an atheistic agnostic, not a “neutral” one, because I judge the overall probability to be on the atheistic side, while not claiming absolute knowledge.

2. That said, that’s not how we talk in real life, do we? That’s good for philosophy, but in philosophy we also can’t prove the existence of the external world, at most we can say something like cogito ergo sum. So does that mean that solipsism is as probable as non-solipsism or that in everyday language we should also use qualifiers like “if the world is real, then…”? We don’t do it. We always make these linguistic leaps of faith: the apple is red (without asking whether the apple exists at all…). So in this mode: yeah, there is no God. God is on the level of IPU or Santa.

But this should not be taken as denial of the philosophical agnosticism from (1).

183 Nyet  Mar 11, 2015 8:37:37pm

re: #173 Belafon

Which would be like me describing myself as a right-handed lefty because, while I write and play tennis left handed, I shoot pool, bows, and guns right handed (I’m actually right eyed). There’s a subtle difference. If you say you’re not sure about the existence of a deity, you are agnostic.

An atheist can be an agnostic.

184 William Barnett-Lewis  Mar 11, 2015 8:38:14pm

re: #178 Belafon

If you have any doubts in the existence of Jesus as the son of God and that he’s the path to heaven, then I would say you are not a Christian. If you believe that, but are always doubting whether you measure up, but try, then you are the best kind of Christian in my opinion.

I don’t quite agree with the first half (my definition is far more accommodating than that) but the second half is spot on.

Now I really gotta go ;)

185 austin_blue  Mar 11, 2015 8:38:49pm

re: #170 Feline Fearless Leader

Since I am traveling with two geologists I suspect the target tomorrow will be Cretaceous rock formations and not Indian mounds. ;)

I’ll probably be charged with finding a good BBQ place for lunch.

My wife tells me that traveling with one geologist is a living hell.

;-)

You have my deepest sympathies. Try the nut log at Stuckey’s.

186 WhatEVs  Mar 11, 2015 8:39:28pm

re: #176 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi

[Embedded content]

Grew up listening to Limbaugh.

With grandma. Fun times.

187 CleverToad  Mar 11, 2015 8:48:11pm

It’s difficult — and presumptuous — to measure the strength of another person’s faith.

It is possible to assess how well their actions follow the stated precepts of the particular doctrine they profess.

Prosperity Gospel flunks the red-letter test.

188 Nyet  Mar 11, 2015 8:50:21pm

re: #187 CleverToad

It’s difficult — and presumptuous — to measure the strength of another person’s faith.

It is possible to assess how well their actions follow the stated precepts of the particular doctrine they profess.

Prosperity Gospel flunks the red-letter test.

The one doing the assessment must take not his or her interpretations into account, but only the interpretations of this particular sect.

There is no doubt that they have their own interpretation of every purported word of Jesus. If they fail to live up to their interpretations - not those of some outside observer - then they indeed fail.


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