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19 comments

1 freetoken  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:03:59pm

Nice try.

But… have you considered that Lincoln could have been wrong, too?

At least, he’s overstated the case.

2 freetoken  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:05:45pm

You can try all you want to equivocate away the deep stupidity of Michele Bachmann, but it only makes you look like a magical balance fairy.

3 Lidane  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:16:01pm

Your desperation to prove that Bachmann was right is hilarious.

What’s next? Proving that David Barton is right and that John Calvin is more important in American history than Thomas Jefferson?

Please do. I’m bored at work and could use a laugh.

4 Buck  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:24:58pm

I could really care less about Bachmann or this issue. I am really fascinated how she is treated, in comparison to others.

In this case, let me put this out there: everyone will agree that Bill Clinton was NOT a homophobe, even though he signed what reads to be the most homophobic bill in US history (DADT). We excuse it because he was advancing the issue. It was better that what was, and it meant that the government was making a step in the right direction.

Maybe the founding fathers were doing the same thing? Unable to pass a complete anti-slavery constitution and bill of rights, they simply advanced the issue forward. As Article 1, Section 2, Paragraph 3 did. Yes calling someone 3/5ths of a person is offensive today…Maybe at the time is was a way to move towards fully equal. A compromise, a thin edge of a wedge.

Anyway… just putting it out there….

5 Buck  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:26:29pm

re: #2 freetoken

Obviously I am THE magical balance fairy. You say it like it is a bad thing. I get three weeks vacation, weekends off, and overtime pay during the week.

It’s a living….

6 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:28:18pm

re: #1 freetoken

Nice try.

But… have you considered that Lincoln could have been wrong, too?

At least, he’s overstated the case.

I wouldn’t criticize what Lincoln wrote. No one is claiming that there were not antislavery voices among the Founders, or that they did not, in many cases, hope for a future in which solutions might be found that would end slavery. (Lincoln presided over the final crunch on the matter.)

What is being argued against is the idea that ending slavery was a motivating force behind the Revolution, or that the Founders worked ‘tirelessly’ to end it. It was not, and they did not. Sam Adams and Ben Franklin might get that title. Mostly, they saw it as an unavoidable social evil, or, alternately, an acceptable social practice.

I am sick to death of people coming out with these insane, self-serving statements, and then having people try to find something that sounds sort of alike by someone with qualifications to prove it’s really so. Try again.

7 JamesWI  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:29:17pm

Every time Buck posts a story/comment, I always think “There’s no way I could take this man any less seriously than I do now.”

He always does his best to prove me wrong.

8 Lidane  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:29:40pm

re: #4 Buck

If you didn’t care about proving Bachmann right, you would have laughed at that bullshit from the Weekly Substandard and not bothered to post it.

Also, if the Founders cared about advancing the issue of ending slavery, they would have freed their own slaves, don’t you think?

9 JamesWI  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:30:00pm

re: #6 SanFranciscoZionist

Bingo.

10 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:35:56pm

re: #4 Buck

I could really care less about Bachmann or this issue. I am really fascinated how she is treated, in comparison to others.

In this case, let me put this out there: everyone will agree that Bill Clinton was NOT a homophobe, even though he signed what reads to be the most homophobic bill in US history (DADT). We excuse it because he was advancing the issue. It was better that what was, and it meant that the government was making a step in the right direction.

Maybe the founding fathers were doing the same thing? Unable to pass a complete anti-slavery constitution and bill of rights, they simply advanced the issue forward. As Article 1, Section 2, Paragraph 3 did. Yes calling someone 3/5ths of a person is offensive today…Maybe at the time is was a way to move towards fully equal. A compromise, a thin edge of a wedge.

Anyway… just putting it out there…

No one except for angry college kids and the occasional radical professor seriously believes that the Founders should be condemned (as opposed to criticized in context) for not doing more to end slavery. They were men of their time. The idea that everyone is tearing them down over it is, frankly, the lie at the core of this debate.

Now: some of the Founders were opposed to slavery, some merely had uneasy feelings about its morality and future, and others accepted it. They did not go to war with Britain over it. They did not end it, nor did they state a clear agenda in the Constitution to end it. Characterizing them as mad crusaders against slavery is perfectly silly.

Bachmann is talking like a fool.

Also, the three-fifths compromise had jack to do with ‘sort of’ recognizing the humanity of slaves. It had to do with counting population, and the people pushing for slaves to be fully recognized ‘population’ were the slaveowners, not the abolitionists. If you think that is a move toward equality, you’re missing some major points.

11 JamesWI  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:36:25pm

re: #4 Buck

Maybe the founding fathers were doing the same thing? Unable to pass a complete anti-slavery constitution and bill of rights, they simply advanced the issue forward. As Article 1, Section 2, Paragraph 3 did. Yes calling someone 3/5ths of a person is offensive today…Maybe at the time is was a way to move towards fully equal. A compromise, a thin edge of a wedge.

You do realize that it was the proponents of slavery who wanted the slaves to be counted as a full person, right? Because the whole point in counting slaves as full persons was to give the slave states more votes in the House of Representatives, thereby giving more power to the slave-holders? Good lord.

But just go on distorting basic history in order to serve your fucked up world view. You’ve never let facts get in the way of your arguments, so why would you start now?

12 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:44:36pm

What Bachmann said: “But we also know that the very founders that wrote those documents worked tirelessly until slavery was no more in the United States,” Bachmann added, claiming “men like John Quincy Adams… would not rest until slavery was extinguished in the country.”

This is not the hell true, unless in the sense that you assume that JQA would have kept working without rest until slavery was extinguished if only he had not unfortunately DIED in 1848. After that, he was forced to rest. But he was not, as has been clarified, a Founder.

13 The Ghost of a Flea  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:48:36pm

Um, you’re glossing over detail to make your point. Rep. Bachmann said that the Founding Fathers “worked tirelessly to end slavery.” When questioned about this statement, she specified that she was referring to John Quincy Adams. When further questioned, she insisted that the 8-year-old Adams was very active at the time of the Revolutionary War.

Had she mentioned the 3/5s compromise or the Northwest Ordinance she might have been building a meaningful argument—as Lincoln did—but she didn’t…and she still isn’t.

Even if Rep Bachmann had gone that route, it would still be a discussion, not a definitive claim, as to operationally define “tirelessly” would complicate interpretation, as would the blanket-grouping of the “Founding Fathers” with no distinction between them. Had she said “…some of the Founding Fathers, most of the time, fought against slavery” then she’d be making an accurate statement.

This is the shooter’s fallacy: you’re drawing the bullseye after the shots have been fired, retroactively locating “correctness” by elliding what was actually said with what you want to interpret the statement as meaning.

14 Charleston Chew  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:49:32pm
To be sure, many of the founders owned slaves.

Visualize me pointing to this quote then, like a blackjack dealer, clapping out, clearing my hands, and stepping to the side.

15 The Ghost of a Flea  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 1:51:50pm

I should add that when I cite the 3/5s compromise, it’s not because I’m selling the talking point that it was a step in the right direction: rather, that the fight involved demonstrated some of the friction regarding slavery at the time.

16 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 3:38:20pm

re: #13 The Ghost of a Flea

Um, you’re glossing over detail to make your point. Rep. Bachmann said that the Founding Fathers “worked tirelessly to end slavery.” When questioned about this statement, she specified that she was referring to John Quincy Adams. When further questioned, she insisted that the 8-year-old Adams was very active at the time of the Revolutionary War.

Well, he was active, just not in politics. To quote Cracked.com:

With his father away from home most of the time busying himself with the rebel cause, Adams, at age eight, was the man of the house. As if ensuring the safety and prosperity of an entire house before you even hit puberty isn’t daunting enough, Adams had to do it all during a fucking war. He, in fact, often talked about watching the battle of Bunker Hill from his front porch, constantly worried about being, as he wrote in his diary, “butchered in cold blood, or taken and carried…as hostages by any foraging or marauding detachment of British soldiers.” Remember when you were eight and you worried about missing Pokemon? Yeah. If you’re feeling, perhaps, a little wet right now, it’s because the ghost of an eight year old John Quincy Adams is pissing all over you as you read this.

Now, to be fair, Abigail was actually running things…but it can’t have been a picnic, either.

17 Stanghazi  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 5:19:50pm

You know what cracks me up? A Canadian so invested in protecting the GOP of America.

Ask me about the politics of Canada, hell, England. I know the names, but hell if I’m so deep into their issues. It’s their resident’s issues. Not really mine. No stake.

Puzzling, but we all kind of know that.

18 The Ghost of a Flea  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 5:33:12pm

re: #16 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, he was active, just not in politics. To quote Cracked.com:

Wow. Did not know that. I can’t image being that intimate of war that young.

19 Buck  Wed, Jun 29, 2011 8:21:46pm

re: #17 Stanley Sea

Ask me about the politics of Canada, hell, England. I know the names, but hell if I’m so deep into their issues. It’s their resident’s issues. Not really mine. No stake.

So what you are saying is that you are ignorant of the politics in countries around you, and you don’t understand why I am not ignorant like you?

I suppose you could look at an atlas and try and find Canada. Maybe you would figure out why anyone would take an interest in a country that has the longest unguarded border with you, and who is your largest trading partner.


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