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1 Sophia77  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:40:32pm

With respect, Destro, Bibi's cartoon may have been silly but his speech wasn't.

Did you listen to it?

2 Destro  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:44:14pm

re: #1 Sophia77

Yea, to me, Bibi on Iran and WMD sounded like how Colin Powell sounded at the UN over Iraqi WMD.

3 researchok  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:03:24pm

re: #1 Sophia77

Not silly.

There are lots of people who need cartoons to understand reality. And there are some people who need cartoons explained.

Finally, let's not kid ourselves- we're talking about a regime which cuts down young women Nida Soltan, Journalists Zahra_Kazemi, and thousands of others.

Then there is this- RAFSANJANI SAYS MUSLIMS SHOULD USE NUCLEAR WEAPON AGAINST ISRAEL

Finally, Bill Clinton on Iran/Ahmadenijad says it best

4 Archangelus  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:07:34pm

1) Iraq wasn't all but screaming to the world the equivalent of "we're building this and you can't stop us! Nyah Nyah Nyah!"
2) Plenty of proof and indicators pointing to the fact that the Ayatollahs have been developing nuclear tech for more than just seeking nuclear energy, ie weapons programs, if only on account of the fact that there are quite a few transactions pertaining to it as well as interviews from before the Iranian nuclear program became active. In the latter, the leadership admitted saying that it would pursue it if they could, citing "will of Allah for destroying Teh Ebil Jews. Hell, there's even the very words (in Farsi) from former Iranian President Ali Rafsanjenai in 2000 or 2001, who was eventually one of those responsible for overseeing part of the nuclear project (can someone say happy coincidence) where he not only justified nuking Israel but gave religious/moral justifications for the would-be deaths of any Muslims dying due to the use of a nuke on Tel Aviv and the effects of the fall out on neighboring countries (in Arabic ofc).
3) This is a country that had no problem with the use of WMDs in the past (see the Iran-Iraq War where both sides used Biowarfare against each other with figures in the tens of thousands of fatalities as a result).

4) Only 3 days ago, the current Iranian president publicly called for "eradicating" a country of 6.5 million people - a call which he has repeated before, along with openly denying the Holocaust, for which he seems to be wishing.


Bibi doesn't get a shred of credibility or respect from my general direction (for numerous reasons) but comparing this to Iraq is ridiculous, as was the premise for attacking Iraq in the first place. Iraq was never a threat, and no one in the region viewed it as such in more than a decade, just as no one took Saddam seriously in that part of the world (To this date, i've not met one Israeli who thought the wa made sense - to all of them, before and after, Saddam was a joke and a vocal nuisance sine '91, nothing more).
In contrast, Iran is a totally different story - pretty much everyone takes the Ayatollah regime seriously and Israel isn't the only ones concerned (case in point, the Gulf State arms race that's now underway because they're mortally terrified of a nuclear Iran even more than Israel)...

5 Destro  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:12:16pm

re: #4 Archangelus

Iraq was never a threat, and no one in the region viewed it as such in more than a decade.

Thousands of lives later and billions spent to invade Iraq and oops!!!

Am I the only one who remembers Netanyahu cheerleading the Iraq war?

6 Archangelus  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:17:24pm

Apparently, since Bibi was a then-disgraced EX prime minister then and retired from politics after 1999, returning only in late 2005...

7 Destro  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:17:57pm

re: #6 Archangelus

Apparently, since Bibi was a borderline disgraced EX prime minister then and retired from politics after 1999, returning only in late 2005...

Netanyahu was wrong about Iraq having nuclear weapons why is he right now? Cartoon bomb chart?

8 Archangelus  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:19:38pm

What part of "Bibi doesn't get a shred of credibility or respect from my general direction" didn't you understand? His words are not what I take into consideration when I evaluate what I know professionally about the Iranian regime (which is actually quite a lot)...

9 Archangelus  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 6:23:32pm

re: #3 researchok

BTW Nice catch on the Rafsanjenai bit, researchok - it's the one i was referring to (though not the full thing), but couldn't find...

10 Destro  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 7:02:44pm

re: #8 Archangelus

What part of "Bibi doesn't get a shred of credibility or respect from my general direction" didn't you understand? His words are not what I take into consideration when I evaluate what I know professionally about the Iranian regime (which is actually quite a lot)...

Then you and I and others agree Netanyahu appears ludicrous in this case. What we don't agree on is how much of a threat Iran is. I think Obama is managing Iran and isolating and containing the threat. Netanyahu is running around acting as if his hair is on fire without any credibility that I (or you it seems if I understood you correctly) recognize.

11 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 7:43:03pm

re: #2 Destro

Yea, to me, Bibi on Iran and WMD sounded like how Colin Powell sounded at the UN over Iraqi WMD.

Except this time the evidence is on the conservative side. Iran really has all that nuclear technology underway at multiple facilities. A vast difference exists between Iraq and Iran as Iran actually has the programs.

12 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 7:44:50pm

re: #7 Destro

Netanyahu was wrong about Iraq having nuclear weapons why is he right now? Cartoon bomb chart?

IAEA.
Bill Clinton.
Jut to start on who takes the Iran threat seriously based on direct physical evidence of an enrichment program.

13 Gus  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 7:48:43pm

re: #12 Daniel Ballard

IAEA.
Bill Clinton.
Jut to start on who takes the Iran threat seriously based on direct physical evidence of an enrichment program.

Yep.

[Dobro slide.]

Of course to others it's still "America the enemy."

14 Sophia77  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 8:16:35pm

Destro, as others have said above, there's no comparison between Iran and Iraq or between this situation and Iraq.

Iran has repeatedly threatened Israel, and no, it isn't just flowery language. The evidence that they're seeking weapons is supported by credible sources.

Also, Bibi rightly recalled the fact that people did not pay attention to the Nazis. We've heard over and over that modern day Jews and Israelis have an "extermination neurosis," because, duh, people have tried to exterminate us. And, it was only 70 years ago. That isn't ancient history.

Further to that, the destabilizing effect of a nuclear Iran would be great.

Really you need to back off from your prejudices just a bit and look at things more objectively.

15 Destro  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 9:02:43pm

re: #14 Sophia77

Iran is not Germany, it is a broke, militarily weak nation. Comparing Iran to the Nazi Germany (a economic and military superpower) is fear mongering.

Israel can wipe out Iran more easily than Iran can wipe out Israel.

See, the difference here is Netanyahu is calling for a preemptive strike on Iran's nuclear facilities in the hope it will knock out pre-production facilities.

Obama can do it with sanctions and smart covert means and no need for a war.

That's the difference.

I am not saying leave Iran alone. I am saying Netanyahu's strategic vision on this is crap.

16 Bob Levin  Thu, Sep 27, 2012 11:47:58pm

re: #15 Destro

Your version of WWII history is....unique. Others might call it 'fictional'.

Israel doesn't wish to destroy Iran. The feeling within the Iranian ruling class is not mutual.

Are you aware of Stuxnet and other computer viruses inhibiting the Iranian development. Do you think Israel is not involved in those projects? Do you think Israel has not already taken steps to protect itself? If not, why not? If so, then that would nullify your claim regarding Netenyahu's strategy.

17 Destro  Fri, Sep 28, 2012 6:14:43am

re: #16 Bob Levin

I offered no in depth history of WW2 other than to say Germany was a European super power. A fact. Iran is not an industrial power, it does not have the military sophistication of Israel, and has the US military as a buffer (in Iraq and the Persian Gulf) in between Israel and Iran. So please forgive me if I laugh at Bibi's hair on fire/the sky is falling/WW3 imminent danger routine.

Again, we see you imagine stuff not said or implied.


And I guess your delusion prevented you from reading my #15 where I wrote, and I quote myself:

See, the difference here is Netanyahu is calling for a preemptive strike on Iran's nuclear facilities in the hope it will knock out pre-production facilities.

Obama can do it with sanctions and smart covert means and no need for a war.

That's the difference.

I am not saying leave Iran alone. I am saying Netanyahu's strategic vision on this is crap.

So as you can see I approve of covert non violent means, to prevent and monitor Iran's weapons program.

Once again, reality based Destro thwarts paranoid delusional Bob Levin's imaginary version of Destro.

Maybe I should draw a cartoon chart for you?

18 Bob Levin  Fri, Sep 28, 2012 12:32:57pm

re: #17 Destro

Well Mr. Reality based, how about you answer the very real questions that I asked? You also ignore the reality that was mention above in other comments. Address that reality.

Having trouble with the first person pronoun? Becoming more detached?

What you actually said was

Comparing Iran to the Nazi Germany (a economic and military superpower) is fear mongering.

Germany was by no means an economic superpower as it struggled under the reparations terms of Versailles. They were militarily more powerful than nations whose technology was rooted in the previous century, that is, nations who still had a horse cavalry. Germany's most effective tool was the U-Boat, which was the exact same craft as the one that fought WWI. The French leadership was incompetent. So when Germany fought England, they could not prevail. Germany made great progress against Russia, until Russia unveiled the 20th century at Stalingrad--after that, Germany proved to be very weak. And Germany could not keep up with American production, as America successfully fought a war on two fronts--even though the US began the war with no effective military to speak of.

Despite Russia's clear advantage, it would not have been fear mongering for Russians to worry about the German military. Germany inflicted serious damage upon Russia.

So--your comic book version of the world is...a comic book version of the world. Draw that cartoon.

19 Destro  Fri, Sep 28, 2012 1:03:48pm

re: #18 Bob Levin

Your freaked out that I called Germany a superpower leading up to WW2?

Everything you said about pre WW2 Germany could be applied to the French, British and Soviets and the Americans.

The issue is you want to keep linking the Iranians to Hitler and Germany and the reality is that modern Iran is not anywhere near comparable in terms of military and economic power that Nazi (and Wiemar) Germany was in relation to her neighbors.

Iran is a basket case. Israel is a nuclear and chemical/biological regional military superpower. Israel has good credit around the world, Iran has oil that she can barely sell and that's about it.

I know for internal domestic political debate reasons every bad guy since the end of the Cold War has to be called Hitler to justify wars of American aggression (Milosevic, Qaddafi, Saddam, Iran, Assad, on and on) but they ain't Hitler - they are bad guys, criminals, etc. But these bad guys are not leaders of a potential world conquering industrialized advanced economies with a centuries old Prussian military tradition backing it.

Israel is the military power of the middle east par excellence. Iran could not even march her armies to the Euphrates against Saddam's chicken shit army.

So take your fear mongering to right wing-Bush war of choice loving websites where they never saw a preemptive war they didn't like and sell that message to those troglodytes.

20 Bob Levin  Fri, Sep 28, 2012 1:20:32pm

re: #19 Destro

This is what you call a freak out:

Your version of WWII history is....unique. Others might call it 'fictional'.

That's a mellow freak out, dude. However, you used the point to argue that Sophia was fear-mongering--which was a false accusation.

Everything you said about pre WW2 Germany could be applied to the French, British and Soviets and the Americans.

Not true at all. You may have missed this part of the war, but the British, Soviets, and the Americans kicked Germany's ass. So, who turned out to be the superpower? And which 'military power' turned out to be mass murdering criminals?

The issue is you want to keep linking the Iranians to Hitler and Germany and the reality is that modern Iran is not anywhere near comparable in terms of military and economic power that Nazi (and Wiemar) Germany was in relation to her neighbors.

Using this logic, explain the Six-Day war. The idea is to prevent Iran from reaching its goal of being able to kill millions of Israelis.

Oh my, you raise an interesting point. I need another sip of coffee.

What do you think is the difference between Hitler, Assad, Qaddafi, Saddam, and on and on?

It's expecting too much for you to actually answer the question, but you did raise the point.


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