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1 Dark_Falcon  Apr 9, 2014 10:36:05am

Maybe we aren’t going to be the sole superpower, but recent events have made damn clear we better ensure we stay a superpower. If not we’ll get eaten alive.

2 palmerskiss  Apr 9, 2014 11:34:55am

re: #1 Dark_Falcon

Maybe we aren’t going to be the sole superpower, but recent events have made damn clear we better ensure we stay a superpower. If not we’ll get eaten alive.

with great power comes great responsibility - the neocons, what with torture, neverending internment, and aggressive warfare have not shown any responsibility that proves they are capable or worthy of being a power, super or not.

When you fuck things up - you lose credibility, significance, and power, but when you discard your own virtues and values, that ostensibly you are using as a basis for attacking others, you are just a hypocrite.

by ‘you’ of course i mean the neocons.

3 palmerskiss  Apr 9, 2014 11:38:38am

re: #1 Dark_Falcon

Maybe we aren’t going to be the sole superpower, but recent events have made damn clear we better ensure we stay a superpower. If not we’ll get eaten alive.

i will say this dark, and it has merit - if we, america, can not give justice to our own bad behaviour internationally, then we will find it very hard to make a case that we get to call the shots.

this is not a controversial idea, in fact, the U.S. is learning just how complicated being a hypocrite on the international stage can be.

It is not a stretch to suggest that our integrity matters.

4 Political Atheist  Apr 9, 2014 11:42:12am

So exactly how small must our military become to satisfy the critics of the Neocons? Anyone with real specifics? And the missing part of this discussion is our allies. Those that have a war guarantee for their existence. South Korea, japan, Europe.

For those who insist it is wrong for the US to have the largest military force in the world I have to ask-Who would they prefer have that status instead? When we invaded Iraq twice, we gave it back. When will Putin give Crimea back?

How stable would our less powerful allies be without our defense guarantees? Not very. Taiwan, Japan, NATO without the US…. well we know Japan would become a nuclear weapons player. How about South Korea? Anyone ask them about this proposed massive decline in our ability to fight?

Is the world more stable if we withdraw and many more nations become more powerful to see to their own defense? I don’t see how that can possibly end well.

5 palmerskiss  Apr 9, 2014 11:43:14am

re: #1 Dark_Falcon

off-topic - just wondering if you are a soccer fan, if you will be watching the world cup this summer?

6 palmerskiss  Apr 9, 2014 11:43:42am

re: #4 Political Atheist

So exactly how small must our military become to satisfy the critics of the Neocons? Anyone with real specifics? And the missing part of this discussion is our allies. Those that have a war guarantee for their existence. South Korea, japan, Europe.

For those who insist it is wrong for the US to have the largest military force in the world I have to ask-Who would they prefer have that status instead? When we invaded Iraq twice, we gave it back. When will Putin give Crimea back?

How stable would our less powerful allies be without our defense guarantees? Not very. Taiwan, Japan, NATO without the US…. well we know Japan would become a nuclear weapons player. How about South Korea? Anyone ask them about this proposed massive decline in our ability to fight?

Is the world more stable if we withdraw and many more nations become more powerful to see to their own defense? I don’t see how that can possibly end well.

not sure size is the issue, veracity is.

7 Political Atheist  Apr 9, 2014 12:01:45pm

re: #6 palmerskiss

not sure size is the issue, veracity is.

Now I’m confused. if bad policy is the issue I get it. Why mention “powerful” if size is not an issue? if it’s a declaration that we must not have a very large powerful military, I would point out that policy changes in an instant, and military capacity changes very slowly.

Our war in Afghanistan was not a war of choice. Our decision to not abandon a wrecked country like Afghanistan to the whims of it’s tribal and hostile neighbors while attempting to offer women and children better lives moving ahead is a good thing.

8 palmerskiss  Apr 9, 2014 12:12:46pm

re: #7 Political Atheist

Now I’m confused. if bad policy is the issue I get it. Why mention “powerful” if size is not an issue? if it’s a declaration that we must not have a very large powerful military, I would point out that policy changes in an instant, and military capacity changes very slowly.

Our war in Afghanistan was not a war of choice. Our decision to not abandon a wrecked country like Afghanistan to the whims of it’s tribal and hostile neighbors while attempting to offer women and children better lives moving ahead is a good thing.

because i do not believe the criticism of the neo-cons is based on size, but on how the power was used.

9 Political Atheist  Apr 9, 2014 12:36:28pm

re: #8 palmerskiss

Ah well I certainly have no disagreement there. But you depart from the article at that point.

For the argument towards stability, I ask simply: we have endured a war in Iraq, we still have thousands of troops in Afghanistan, we have waged secret wars in Pakistan and Yemen.

What is the problem with us being in Afghanistan for nation building? Yes we wage Not Secret wars on Al Qaeda and the Taliban. I don’t have a problen with that.

Let’s read the critics-
Invasions are bad, even when it’s a locale for a dangerous enemy.

Drone attacks are bad because they are not 100% accurate, or can kill nearby innocents.

Using local forces are bad because we arm people we don’t know well enough to trust.

In the end we are to do nothing, untuil such time as the critics want us back in the game because some tyrant is killing innocents en masse again.

we simply can not have it both ways. The globe is better off with a strong America and good policy. A less strong America would not really be any better in the absence of good policy.

So the answer is to have better policy. Well GWB has been gone quite some time now and unless you buy into the Obama is a war criminal thing, I really don’t see what there is to complain about at this time.

10 palmerskiss  Apr 9, 2014 12:45:37pm

re: #9 Political Atheist

Ah well I certainly have no disagreement there. But you depart from the article at that point.

Let’s read the critics-
Invasions are bad, even when it’s a locale for a dangerous enemy.

Drone attacks are bad because they are not 100% accurate, or can kill nearby innocents.

Using local forces are bad because we arm people we don’t know well enough to trust.

In the end we are to do nothing, untuil such time as the critics want us back in the game because some tyrant is killing innocents en masse again.

So the answer is to have better policy. Well GWB has been gone quite some time now and unless you buy into the Obama is a war criminal thing, I really don’t see what there is to complain about at this time.

no look - i didnt post the article because i stalwartly believe every tenet of it. for one - i tend to be harder to define than that - i was against pulling out of iraq in 2009, a position that was not popular - but honor and justice are important to me - and we broke it.

What is the problem with us being in Afghanistan for nation building? Yes we wage Not Secret wars on Al Qaeda and the Taliban. I don’t have a problen with that.

no neither do i, and i am a supporter of using drones to get it done.

I believe in strongly fighting terrorism.

we simply can not have it both ways. The globe is better off with a strong America and good policy. A less strong America would not really be any better in the absence of good policy.

just to drill this down - what ideas do you have about what makes us “less strong” - to me - justice and adhering to values makes us strong, the debate over army size, etc, is mostly irrelevant to this idea, as those arguments are about tactics/efficiency and not so much the dirtier “how we use/enforce our power”

11 palmerskiss  Apr 9, 2014 12:49:09pm

re: #9 Political Atheist

Let’s read the critics-
Invasions are bad, even when it’s a locale for a dangerous enemy.

Drone attacks are bad because they are not 100% accurate, or can kill nearby innocents.

Using local forces are bad because we arm people we don’t know well enough to trust.

does it have to be so black and white - could it not just as easily be:

‘invasions are bad when they do not clearly meet the requirements for adroit and virtuous action”

I think this idea highlights our place atm - i find it hard to believe troop force in syria would be against our virtue and values, i could see an argument about how that would be a good use of american force.

however, we cannot do something like this - because iraq.

iraq squandered our ability to provide force where it is really needed - how we get past this is by using justice to show our values still have merit.

just my take,

So the answer is to have better policy. Well GWB has been gone quite some time now and unless you buy into the Obama is a war criminal thing, I really don’t see what there is to complain about at this time.

no i do not disagree with this.

12 palmerskiss  Apr 9, 2014 12:50:57pm

btw - thanx dark and pol for the good debate…

13 Dark_Falcon  Apr 9, 2014 6:24:46pm

re: #12 palmerskiss

btw - thanx dark and pol for the good debate…

You’re welcome, and thank you for listening and for actually thinking. Too many people today just shout slogans, and I’m glad to see you’re made of better stuff.

And I should let you know I’m not a soccer fan. Hockey, yes, but not soccer.

14 palmerskiss  Apr 9, 2014 7:29:55pm

re: #13 Dark_Falcon

You’re welcome, and thank you for listening and for actually thinking. Too many people today just shout slogans, and I’m glad to see you’re made of better stuff.

And I should let you know I’m not a soccer fan. Hockey, yes, but not soccer.

okio - thanks - trying to gauge interest in a big world cup primer :)

15 klys  Apr 9, 2014 7:38:05pm

re: #14 palmerskiss

okio - thanks - trying to gauge interest in a big world cup primer :)

I would say do it, because although I don’t normally follow soccer, it’s a big world event and it would be nice to know what’s going on instead of being an ignorant American. :)

16 palmerskiss  Apr 9, 2014 7:43:24pm

re: #15 klys

I would say do it, because although I don’t normally follow soccer, it’s a big world event and it would be nice to know what’s going on instead of being an ignorant American. :)

:) k


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