re: #789 Obdicut

If it’s still a controversial subject, why are you surprised by me being unconvinced?

I’m not really surprised about that. What surprises me is how cold you view the world and that we are somehow so unique in it.

From my perspective the points about goodness, kindness, cognition, etc aren’t really critical to this issue. I see examples in all the kingdoms of life on the planet in which organisms are living and surviving together, sharing work and the rewards, giving others a free ride without shaming them as welfare commensalists, helping each other, forming relationships and family bonds, etc. Now if that isn’t good or kindness or whatever, fine. It is still showing a level of teamwork and cooperation that should shame us as a supposedly rational social species. Do they do these things because they are kind or just because evolution programmed them that way? I’d say in some cases both, but I’m not sure why the distinction even matters.

Is charity less good if the person does it because of social programming rather than because they empathize with the recipients?

but I really doubt the authors would say that they prove it, just that they add evidence.

I didn’t say prove.

Well, I wouldn’t. Or rather, I’d say that analoging ability forms a part of abstract thought.

What more is needed for abstract thought? An analogy is an abstraction. So if these animals are analoging then is that not a form of abstract thought?

A kind that involves abstract thought, rather than as you said, metacognition (a very squishy term) and causal reasoning.

What sort of kindness involves abstract thought? I suggest instead that kindness is an emotional response.

I’d also note it’s nearly impossible to separate causal reasoning from hardwired behavior.

I’m using the term metacognition specifically in reference to a sense of self, something demonstrated by several groups of animals.

As for causal reasoning, yes it is hard to separate from training. But it has been demonstrated in several groups by introducing animals to problems they have never seen before. For example, spontaneous sequential tool use:
physorg.com

Do you think that descends down all the way to protozoa?

Do I think what what descends all the way down to protozoa? And why stop there, why not all the way down to bacteria and archaea?