Chesler on Honor Killings

Charles Johnson

ReligionFebruary 2009 • Views: 2,246

Here’s a good essay by Phyllis Chesler on the question: Are Honor Killings Simply Domestic Violence?

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102 comments

Bloodnok Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:07:02pm

Sick shit.

screaming_eagle Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:07:43pm

How about evil.

Vicious Babushka Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:07:51pm

Nobody calls wife beating "honor" beating.

Nevergiveup Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:07:54pm

How can people hurt their kids? I don't get it.

A Kiwi Infidel Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:09:32pm

Honour killing = cowardly murder

Afrocity Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:10:33pm

re: #5 A Kiwi Infidel

Honour killing = cowardly murder

I could not have said it better myself.

LGoPs Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:12:48pm

I'm reminded of a story from British colonial rule in India. I paraphrase of course but essentially the story consisted of a certain Indian tradition of burning the wife alive when the husband died.
Confronted with this act the British Governor confronted the elders and demanded a cessation to this practice. The elders complained, saying that it was a tradition. To which the governor replied that the British also had a tradition - hanging. And that he would apply that tradition to them if this ever happened again.
I know I butchered the story but I think the message remains.

jones Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:13:10pm

One quibble, domestic violence isn't a male only problem. That is just ignorant.

Sharmuta Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:13:21pm

A 2008 Massachusetts-based study found that "although immigrants make up an estimated 14 percent of the state's population, [they, nevertheless,] accounted for 26 percent of the 180 domestic violence deaths from 1997-2006."

The thing I would like to see the immigration offices change is to provide immigrant women with a list of their rights in this country. I'm pretty certain many of these women have no idea that they have rights and there are agencies that will protect them.

pious agnostic Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:14:05pm

If there is no difference between honor killings and "regular" domestic violence, that it has nothing whatsoever to do with religion or any particular culture, then it should be easily shown through a statistical analysis of such crimes. Correlation would not be shown.

mean Gene Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:14:28pm

What did I read today happened?
A man called police because his 5 or 6 year old was having trouble breathing.
When they got there he asked if they had a gun.
They didn't because this was in San Francisco.
He wanted to shoot the boy AND his mother if only he could find her.
I don't know if he admitted to trying to strangle the boy or not but police arrested him.
(And yes, he had a Muslim name.)

lawhawk Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:15:11pm

Where were the womens rights groups to carry out the studies and gather the information to help protect women from this abusive and misogynistic practice in which women are treated actually worse than chattel? Their basic rights are being deprived by men who follow the Sharia that gives them dominion to do as they wish - beating their wives if they disobey for instance. Women have no choice in the matter, and neither do the men, because if it's written in the sharia then a failure to follow is apostasy - a crime punishable by death. As Chesler notes:

The press has reported a number of honor killings in the United States, Canada, and Europe. These cases show the killings to be primarily a Muslim-on-Muslim crime. (See Table 2 and Table 3.) The victims are largely teenage daughters or young women. Wives are victims but to a lesser extent. And, unlike most Western domestic violence, honor killings are carefully planned. The perpetrator's family may warn the victim repeatedly over a period of years that she will be killed if she dishonors her family by refusing to veil, rebuffing an arranged marriage, or becoming too Westernized. Most important, only honor killings involve multiple family members. Fathers, mothers, brothers, male cousins, uncles, and sometimes even grandfathers commit the murder, but mothers and sisters may lobby for the killing. Some mothers collaborate in the murder in a hands-on way and may assist in the getaway. In some cases, taxi drivers, neighbors, and mosque members prevent the targeted woman from fleeing, report her whereabouts to her family, and subsequently conspire to thwart police investigations.[19] Very old relatives or minors may be chosen to conduct the murder in order to limit jail time if caught.
Seldom is domestic violence celebrated, even by its perpetrators. In the West, wife batterers are ostracized. Here, there is an important difference in honor crimes. Muslims who commit or assist in the commission of honor killings view these killings as heroic and even view the murder as the fulfillment of a religious obligation.

It's the precise opposite of the notion that some womens rights groups and media outlets make about the idea of honor killings being somehow dishonorable to those carrying them out. They see no shame or failing in carrying out an honor killing. It's their obligation and duty under Islamic law.

A person carrying out such a murder might otherwise feel shame or guilt after carrying it out, but in a honor killing, that's not likely. They're more likely to feel shamed that the woman they killed behaved badly and deserved her fate and relieved that they fulfilled their religious obligations.

Evil. It's just evil what this does to the women in this culture.

wrenchwench Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:15:51pm

re: #8 jones

One quibble, domestic violence isn't a male only problem. That is just ignorant.

From the article:

Domestic violence is a significant problem in the United States. Between 1989 and 2004, 21,124 women died at the hands of an intimate; 8,997 men died in domestic violence during the same time period.

It is not overlooked here.

Syrah Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:16:08pm

re: #9 Sharmuta

The thing I would like to see the immigration offices change is to provide immigrant women with a list of their rights in this country. I'm pretty certain many of these women have no idea that they have rights and there are agencies that will protect them.

Yes.

In their native language, and away from their husbands and male family members.

Sharmuta Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:16:56pm

re: #13 wrenchwench

And I appreciated that Dr Chesler mentioned it.

mean Gene Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:17:02pm

I read that Italy had a special light sentence for the man who killed his wife ''for the family honor" right up until 1978!

lawhawk Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:17:15pm

re: #9 Sharmuta

The problem is that these women and men think that they're obligated to this end should the women attempt anything that might be seen as disobeying the man - under Sharia these women are treated as chattel. Telling them their rights wont help; it didn't help Hassan's wife - she was attempting to divorce him and had sought the aid of the court. It didn't help.

jones Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:17:23pm

No, but on the chart it was "men *.* to women."

Afrocity Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:17:41pm

This is not covered in the MSM and when it is they treat it as a simple case of domestic violence. Where is the rage from all of the womens groups? Oh I forgot they are upset with Bristol Palin and Ann Coulter.

brandon13 Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:18:03pm

Here's the audio from the 911 call from one of the daughters that was murdered by her father.

It's pretty fucked up.

mean Gene Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:19:55pm

Somebody linked to a quote by a NOW spokeswoman (can I assume that?) to the effect that, yes, this was an honor killing and yes, it is egregious.
Too bad I can't seem to find it.

LGoPs Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:20:39pm

re: #19 Afrocity

This is not covered in the MSM and when it is they treat it as a simple case of domestic violence. Where is the rage from all of the womens groups? Oh I forgot they are upset with Bristol Palin and Ann Coulter.

And don't forget Sarah Palin's wardrobe. It took intense effort to dig out the sordid details of that escapade.
Too many Republicans to destroy....too little time. NOW motto.
/ *Spit*

DistantThunder Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:20:55pm

The term Honor Killing is Orwellian because it insinuates that honor is related to the crime. It's more like Twisted Shame Killing.

I think we play into their hands when we use their perverse term for the slaughter.

These women die ugly - and I don't mean their faces.

albusteve Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:21:43pm

Are Honor Killings Simply Domestic Violence?...

we can split hairs even finer...simply murder, simply Sharia...what's the point of the windage here?....it is what it is

Afrocity Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:22:02pm

re: #22 LGoPs

And don't forget Sarah Palin's wardrobe. It took intense effort to dig out the sordid details of that escapade.
Too many Republicans to destroy....too little time. NOW motto.
/ *Spit*

so true an pathetic. upding!

Sharmuta Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:22:13pm

re: #17 lawhawk

The problem is that these women and men think that they're obligated to this end should the women attempt anything that might be seen as disobeying the man - under Sharia these women are treated as chattel. Telling them their rights wont help; it didn't help Hassan's wife - she was attempting to divorce him and had sought the aid of the court. It didn't help.

And there are American women who do know their rights that end up with the same unfortunate end. Women will rationalize away the danger to themselves with thinking along the lines of, "Oh, he loved me deep down", or "he'll be better this time". We can't help the self-deluded, and that's a larger problem. But if one women isn't getting help because she has no idea that this treatment isn't acceptable in our society, then giving her a chance to know her rights might help.

DistantThunder Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:22:57pm

Discriminant slaughter with Malice. Heinous and Depraved.

Sharmuta Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:24:26pm

NOW did make a statement today about the Buffalo honor killing- we should welcome this and ask NOW and other feminist organizations to do the same even if in the past they've done a poor job.

ArmyWife Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:26:47pm

re: #17 lawhawk

It won't help when they have been brought up in this culture and they don't see it as an issue. They've been treated like chattel, they've been told they are chattel, they believe they are, in fact, chattel.

In a situation that would be too long to explain here, I was actually told by a Burka wearing "wife" that she felt sorry for me, and others like me, because I could be left, I could be alone. She felt security in her situation - being owned.

I don't want to say this is they way all women feel - but I would bet on gut feel alone, it's pretty pervasive.

[deleted] Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:27:59pm

mean Gene Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:28:40pm

Found it!
In a Canadian Newspaper!

About the murder, Marcia Pappas, New York State president of the National Organization for Women (NOW), stated that “[t]his was apparently a terroristic version of honor killing, a murder rooted in cultural notions about women’s subordination to men.”

[Link: canadafreepress.com...]

SummerSong Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:29:03pm

Well done, Ms. Chesler.

Bookmarked for future reference.

UberInfidel67 Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:31:53pm

I'm an American woman....I hit back.

Sharmuta Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:33:01pm

That's nice. Who dings down an article on violence against women?

Scion9 Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:33:43pm

re: #23 DistantThunder

You could call it a shame killing but that amounts to the same thing. The murder takes place because the woman's actions (sometimes actions outside of her control) violates the cultural code of honor, and shames her 'owner' into taking action to restore it. I don't find the term 'honor killing' inappropriate at all.

I'd prefer it be used to simply 'domestic violence' which can have many causes, or any other terminology that doesn't inform the public as to the motive. I think it's more Orwellian for the media to obfuscate in regards to the motives of honor killings by calling them domestic violence.

Domestic violence as a term, at least the way it gets used in the media is very reminiscent of any other kind of violence or crime that gets reported on. It is something that 'happens'; like a natural disaster, or an accident.

ArmyWife Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:35:04pm

re: #34 Sharmuta

Someone who feels we don't know our rightful place in society? May this person's personal circle in hell include someone with my personality and gift of gab for all eternity.

winston06 Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:37:38pm

Domestic violence? gotta be kidding me. What happened to this poor woman in NY happens in a massive scale to women of many middle-eastern countries. And they call it "Honor Killing". Seen it, felt it. It ain't domestic violence. It's a religious illness, IMO.

Sharmuta Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:40:08pm

re: #29 ArmyWife

It won't help when they have been brought up in this culture and they don't see it as an issue. They've been treated like chattel, they've been told they are chattel, they believe they are, in fact, chattel.

In a situation that would be too long to explain here, I was actually told by a Burka wearing "wife" that she felt sorry for me, and others like me, because I could be left, I could be alone. She felt security in her situation - being owned.

I don't want to say this is they way all women feel - but I would bet on gut feel alone, it's pretty pervasive.

There's a lot of truth in this. When a girl is raised to not have any respect for herself as an individual, it will be harder for her later in life to draw from the well of self respect one needs to stand up for themselves. This cuts across all cultures in respect to how girls are treated, and frankly the genders too. Lack of self respect is what abusers use as the victims own weapon against them.

Syrah Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:41:07pm

re: #34 Sharmuta

BakiShamil

Sharmuta Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:45:38pm

re: #39 Syrah

That's a very angry person, imo.

theheat Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:48:01pm

This was a very well written article, even more because she used specific cases and offered the particulars.

Domestic violence is never okay, whether it's in Brentwood, CA, some trailer part in Mississippi, or the home of some asswipe distinguished professional (as he). And it's really, really, REALLY not okay for the religions that encourage and protect it as some assbackwards cultural thing.

Islam is way overdue for the reformation they're unwilling to implement. It's as much a part of them as the rings of a tree trunk. Always has been, and it isn't changing. People have an easier time calling out and making fun of Scientologists. Makes no sense at all.

yesandno Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:48:07pm

Always said to be about shame....

But always about power and property.

When you contradict the authority of the person who claims to be in charge, you bring shame upon him in his eyes. A cultural, tribal, primitive belief in the pecking order. And it is ingrained so much that even the women of the culture buy into it.

Everything that exists in the culture is centered upon the male...everything else is chattel, property. When something on the fringes makes "him" look bad, it must be excised. There is nothing emotional about it. Your male line is more important then the female lines of your daughters...who are but barter to your own aggrandizement. If they do not flatter your image, get rid of them.

Women will have to put a stop to this. Women in that culture. We can help by charging the killers and prosecuting them to the full extent of the law. We can hold everyone up to OUR LAWS, not some backwards tribal law or Sharia law....one law for everyone. And honor killings should always be FIRST degree murder...they are cold, calulated, and pre-meditated.

A Man for all Seasons Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:48:30pm

re: #38 Sharmuta

There's a lot of truth in this. When a girl is raised to not have any respect for herself as an individual, it will be harder for her later in life to draw from the well of self respect one needs to stand up for themselves. This cuts across all cultures in respect to how girls are treated, and frankly the genders too. Lack of self respect is what abusers use as the victims own weapon against them.

This is where a young girls' parents have all the influence in the world..
it is mom and dad that that can instill strength, love, self-respect, the ways of the world, Spirituality, Family and support..

wiffersnapper Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:48:51pm

Backwards mindsets for backwards people.

Gretchen Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:49:49pm

If you are a liberal beheading is *just like* other domestic violence. It's just not part of our culture so we don't understand, it's really a lot like spanking kids. A lib I know once told me circumcision is *no different* than female genital mutilation. Really, she believes this -- we are "just as bad".

Sharmuta Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:52:52pm

re: #43 HoosierHoops

This is where a young girls' parents have all the influence in the world..
it is mom and dad that that can instill strength, love, self-respect, the ways of the world, Spirituality, Family and support..

That's why a lot of times you see DV victims come from DV families. There's a lot of learned behavior for a child to pick up on in any parental relationship they're witness too.

Sharmuta Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:53:14pm

re: #45 Gretchen

Did you even read this link?

jorline Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:53:15pm

If someones god justifies violence on another person they have a FUBAR god. I don't care what god you worship.

Sharmuta Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:55:48pm

re: #42 yesandno

It's my belief that real feminism, women demanding the right to self determination, that could be the most radical force islam has ever faced.

Bloodnok Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:56:03pm

re: #39 Syrah

BakiShamil

Such cheery posts. I sincerely hope he downdinged because he hates the practice so much. I don't even want to share bandwidth with someone who would consider thinking about maybe possibly wondering about supporting violence against women..

Afrocity Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:56:06pm

This goes on in the black community as well.
Rihanna is getting thrown under the bus by Black men.

A Man for all Seasons Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:56:14pm

re: #46 Sharmuta

That's why a lot of times you see DV victims come from DV families. There's a lot of learned behavior for a child to pick up on in any parental relationship they're witness too.

I'm sorry Sharm..What does DV mean?

Sharmuta Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:56:36pm

re: #52 HoosierHoops

Domestic Violence.

Bloodnok Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:57:26pm

re: #50 Bloodnok

or "she". It could ba a she.

UberInfidel67 Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:57:34pm

re: #51 Afrocity Really? In what ways? I am curious.

Syrah Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:58:17pm

re: #50 Bloodnok

We can hope his down-ding was a mistake, or that at least he will with some future post explain himself.

nyc redneck Tue, Feb 17, 2009 5:58:53pm

this just shows that islam trumps all.
even real love for daughters, sisters, wives and female cousins.
how could a group of people like this be a healthy family?
where women are related to w/ such a horrifying overlay of anger.
where love is conditional on such restrictive demanding behavior.

and death hangs in the balance for a woman who seeks her own path.
like getting an education, driving a car, or wearing make up instead of covering her face .
this is so beyond domestic violence.
it is systemic cultural evil and cruelty against women.
the men who do this are indoctrinated from birth, in the name of allah.

ArmyWife Tue, Feb 17, 2009 6:03:34pm

re: #51 Afrocity

Domestic violence knows no racial bounds. It strikes all social classes, and happens in many different age groups.

Salamantis Tue, Feb 17, 2009 6:06:40pm

re: #38 Sharmuta

There's a lot of truth in this. When a girl is raised to not have any respect for herself as an individual, it will be harder for her later in life to draw from the well of self respect one needs to stand up for themselves. This cuts across all cultures in respect to how girls are treated, and frankly the genders too. Lack of self respect is what abusers use as the victims own weapon against them.

It's the female version of the original Uncle Tom, who bemoaned the idea of Massa not taking care of him any more. For some, freedom is a frightening prospect, to be fled from.

Randall Gross Tue, Feb 17, 2009 6:09:39pm

I can tell some have not read the article. This contrasts the difference between domestic violence and honor killings. There's a great deal of difference, and the Islamist organizations wish us to blur the two. Please do read the article, this is one of the few I've read that gets it exactly right.
It points out that it's not just a problem for muslims, even though they have the greatest number. It points out the groups that won't acknowledge HK's, and the Islamic groups that recognize it as a real problem. That's a big step towards knowing which Islamic groups in the US are Islamists, and which groups are Islamic.

Syrah Tue, Feb 17, 2009 6:09:44pm

re: #59 Salamantis

It's the female version of the original Uncle Tom, who bemoaned the idea of Massa not taking care of him any more. For some, freedom is a frightening prospect, to be fled from.

Like adulthood. Some would rather be the dependent one than the responsible one.

Afrocity Tue, Feb 17, 2009 6:10:32pm

re: #58 ArmyWife

Domestic violence knows no racial bounds. It strikes all social classes, and happens in many different age groups.

True but in the AA community it is considered like a machismo.

Sharmuta Tue, Feb 17, 2009 6:11:53pm

Most important, only honor killings involve multiple family members. Fathers, mothers, brothers, male cousins, uncles, and sometimes even grandfathers commit the murder, but mothers and sisters may lobby for the killing. Some mothers collaborate in the murder in a hands-on way and may assist in the getaway.

And this point highlights what Dr Chesler taught me and I refer to as femal misogyny.

This brings me to the point made by 'yesandno' in #42. It is the women who need to stop perpetrating this culture. Until they start to demand the respect for themselves and daughters, little will change.

An example of this come from China, and the practice of foot binding. Once Chinese women stood up for their daughters, the practice was gone within a few generations.

This misogyny in islamic cultures can also been seen concerning FGM. Often times, it's the mothers and/or grandmothers insisting on this practice. Women enable the patriarchies that keep them down.

Afrocity Tue, Feb 17, 2009 6:13:40pm

re: #55 UberInfidel67

Really? In what ways? I am curious.

Black Male celebrities are coming out in support of Chris Brown. For years Tina Turner was beat by Ike. Halle Barry was rendered deaf in one ear by Wesley Snipes yet she protected him. There is a well known secret in the AA movie star community that a lot of domestic violence goes on yet no one says anything. Rapes on the sets of rapper videos. Rap music promotes this culture and it is accepted.

Sheepdogess Tue, Feb 17, 2009 6:15:56pm

Excellent article. Thank you.

Sharmuta Tue, Feb 17, 2009 6:16:36pm

re: #63 Sharmuta

And this point highlights what Dr Chesler taught me and I refer to as femal misogyny.

This brings me to the point made by 'yesandno' in #42. It is the women who need to stop perpetrating this culture. Until they start to demand the respect for themselves and daughters, little will change.

An example of this come from China, and the practice of foot binding. Once Chinese women stood up for their daughters, the practice was gone within a few generations.

This misogyny in islamic cultures can also been seen concerning FGM. Often times, it's the mothers and/or grandmothers insisting on this practice. Women enable the patriarchies that keep them down.

And it's this sort of female misogyny that I keep trying to get people to read more about when I promote Dr Chesler's book, Woman's Inhumanity to Woman.

jorline Tue, Feb 17, 2009 6:19:02pm

re: #64 Afrocity

Black Male celebrities are coming out in support of Chris Brown. For years Tina Turner was beat by Ike. Halle Barry was rendered deaf in one ear by Wesley Snipes yet she protected him. There is a well known secret in the AA movie star community that a lot of domestic violence goes on yet no one says anything. Rapes on the sets of rapper videos. Rap music promotes this culture and it is accepted.

I lived in far south TX for thirteen years. There, DV is cultural and a birth right.

Randall Gross Tue, Feb 17, 2009 6:19:49pm

The fault of Islamists in this it that they provide more ways to afront family and tribal honor (not wearing a hijab, showing your hair, etc.) and look the other way, or in some cases encourage it.
Honor killings were rampant in the subcontinent in pre Islamic times during Alexander's conquest, and the Islamists take what was once a limited tribal more, extend it's evil, and make it their own.

Sharmuta Tue, Feb 17, 2009 6:23:25pm

re: #64 Afrocity

And this it what I mean by the root sources of these problems being multicultural. Misogyny knows no bounds.

horse Tue, Feb 17, 2009 6:23:51pm

The best way to deal with this is the same as other serious societal ills, tremendous exposure and education via public venues (service announcements, training, etc...) Lets have a celebrity who is Muslim make a public service announcement that educates them on how this is unacceptable and will result in the all involved family members being imprisoned, and their children going into foster care. Threats will be treated as a crime, etc...

This "honor" killing cultural shtick is rather effective because it removes part of the decision making outside of the family. A "father" can threaten his family with a morbid kindness; "If it were up to me, I would forgive you. But our culture requires me to kill you in the most horrible way if you do not obey." The threatened young woman can not even rationalize or plead with her "father" in that situation. A horrible, horrible tradition that must be squashed preemptively.

Sharmuta Tue, Feb 17, 2009 6:24:14pm

re: #68 Thanos

Where is that link you had the other day about the Indonesian women demanding equality using the koran? That would be a great link to add to this thread.

UberInfidel67 Tue, Feb 17, 2009 6:33:32pm

re: #64 Afrocity Halle and Wesley? I had no idea! OMG. I am shocked. Seriously. Just.....WOW. My sister's ex hubby used to whoop her ass all the time! Then one day he tried to break through my front door and I told him if he came near her I would crack his skull with a skillet. I. Meant. It. The skillet was in my hand.

Marvo76 Tue, Feb 17, 2009 6:51:44pm

re: #48 jorline

The difference between Domstic violence and Honor killings is .....Nothing, in the religion of Islam, Both are acceptable to God, therefore You ignorant Kafirs can't understand but it must be done...in the Name of allah it must be done!//////

redmirabai Tue, Feb 17, 2009 6:55:19pm

re: #66 Sharmuta

Dr. Chesler's book, "The Death of Feminism,' begins with the story of her own marriage to an Afghani, and her experience in Kabul, living with his family. She had every right stripped from her, and found no allies among the other women in his family. Amina and Sarah Said are examples: their own mother apparently offered them up for their father to kill.
Dr. Chesler is almost alone, unfortunately, among the "Old Feminists" of the 60s, to see that the struggle of women's rights is today to convince women in Islam that freedom is a good thing, not a ticket to cultural oblivion. Islamic nations have over half of their intelligence and creativity literally under wraps.

Sharmuta Tue, Feb 17, 2009 7:01:20pm

re: #74 redmirabai

I know- I've read that book and it's what led me to reading more of her work.

phillygirl Tue, Feb 17, 2009 7:36:45pm

I'm surprised that the MSM decided to cover this story. I first read about it via the Canadian Press. It took two more days for it to reach CNN. This is what happens when people don't assimilate into our culture. Unlike other immigrants, many Muslims cling to their tribal ways. Women are regarded as chattel. If we don't watch out and if we continue to be PC, these beheadings and other forms of honor killings will become "common place." So much for the ROP.

Perpetua Tue, Feb 17, 2009 7:43:13pm

I notice Phyllis Chesler has written a book with Robert Spencer, The Violent Oppression of Women In Islam. Please remind me, isn't Robert Spencer on the bad list for LGF?

Sharmuta Tue, Feb 17, 2009 7:47:52pm

re: #77 Perpetua

You're really fixated on this, huh?

tsionguy Tue, Feb 17, 2009 8:01:47pm

re: #77 Perpetua

Phyllis Chesler is also a feminist activist. She was also once married to a Muslim. I guess it's hard to pigeon-hole people.

Sharmuta Tue, Feb 17, 2009 8:07:09pm

re: #79 tsionguy

Not only that, but I'm sure Dr Chesler's not following robert's associations closely. It's fairly recent information, for one. And second, she's a busy woman in her own right with her books, blog, and other activities. She's already backed away from supporting one euro-fascist in the past, and important to note.

Sharmuta Tue, Feb 17, 2009 8:07:44pm

re: #80 Sharmuta

And it's important to note. PIMF

Gretchen Tue, Feb 17, 2009 8:18:19pm

re: #47 Sharmuta
Yes, I read the link. I should have subsituted "honor killing" for "beheading".

It has taken "feminist" groups a long time to notice this phenomenon, mainly because the groups aren't really feminist at all, just leftist victim mongers. Speaking out about honor killing doesn't promote the leftist hate America (until Obama) agenda.

It would be interesting to see if Amnesty International and other lefty groups noticed honor killings during the Clinton era, before the "war on terror" changed the agenda to protecting any negative practice that could be associated with Muslims.

CMinMN Tue, Feb 17, 2009 8:19:27pm

Culture, Language, Borders. This has to become a priority. Watching our government is like watching a Buffalo Bills fan watch the Houston Oilers come back in an unimaginable situation. This is surreal.

CMinMN Tue, Feb 17, 2009 8:21:09pm

I meant the Bills coming back over the Oilers. I am a NFC fan. The AFC is like the PAC 10. Not a bad thing but...

nom de boom Tue, Feb 17, 2009 8:39:28pm

The portion of the article I found most striking was the comment that family members would pursue their intended victims in order to kill them. When I was growing up, I lived near two women who attended the same church as my parents. They were Middle Eastern, so I was very curious about them. My parents would frequently take them food, drive them around town, etc. Basically, they and some other members of the church adopted them. However, my parents made it very VERY clear to me that I was never to talk about them to my friends, nor mention their names to anyone. It wasn't until I was older that I was told they were fugitives from their own family members because they had made the (evidently fatal) mistake of converting to Christianity. They actually had to flee their homeland in order to avoid being slaughtered like animals, and even THAT wasn't good enough for their pathetic family. Every so often, they would have to pick up and move to a different town, because they were constantly being hunted. And that is precisely the right word to use. I'm proud of my parents' church for functioning as a "stop" in an underground railroad of sorts, and I hope there were many others who also looked after these two ladies. Churches need to be conscious of these kinds of people in their communities, and they need to make an effort to revive the old significance of the term "sanctuary."

perpetua Tue, Feb 17, 2009 8:48:57pm

re: #78 Sharmuta

You're really fixated on this, huh?

Fixated on what?

Perpetua Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:04:38pm

OK, I remembered what Charles said to do. I used the LGF search feature on Robert Spencer and found the post here at LGF from a few days ago that explained why there is a problem with him. The point is that he has associated with Euro-fascists. I am sorry to be slow to catch on.

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:39:01pm

re: #11 mean Gene

They didn't because this was in San Francisco.

Uh, SFPD are armed.

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:40:31pm

re: #14 Syrah

Yes.

In their native language, and away from their husbands and male family members.

I'm not going to argue. I am, however, going to note that some people on LGF threads have objected to the idea of medical care or translation being provided in an immigrant's native language. I wonder if this scenario changes anything for them, and if so, why.

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:42:46pm

re: #19 Afrocity

This is not covered in the MSM and when it is they treat it as a simple case of domestic violence. Where is the rage from all of the womens groups? Oh I forgot they are upset with Bristol Palin and Ann Coulter.

I'm just gonna add one thing, which is that 'just' domestic violence is not a good way to look at it. People die from domestic violence. Chesler makes a very good point, which is that the cultural triggers and norms are different, but believe me, a woman whose ex-boyfriend stabs her to death because he 'loves' her too much to lose her and a woman whose husband beheads her because she's humiliated him are just as dead as each other.

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:45:18pm

re: #88 SanFranciscoZionist

With guns.

Sharmuta Tue, Feb 17, 2009 9:57:06pm

re: #89 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm not going to argue. I am, however, going to note that some people on LGF threads have objected to the idea of medical care or translation being provided in an immigrant's native language. I wonder if this scenario changes anything for them, and if so, why.

I'm not one of those people.

SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Feb 17, 2009 11:25:06pm

re: #92 Sharmuta

I'm not one of those people.

Shouldn't have thought you would be, ma'am!

Sharmuta Wed, Feb 18, 2009 1:24:32am

re: #87 Perpetua

OK, I remembered what Charles said to do. I used the LGF search feature on Robert Spencer and found the post here at LGF from a few days ago that explained why there is a problem with him. The point is that he has associated with Euro-fascists. I am sorry to be slow to catch on.

And I'm sorry I'm not more patient at times.

Ledger1 Wed, Feb 18, 2009 3:14:23am

"...50 instances of North American honor killings"- Phyllis Chesler

No make that 52 North American honor killings.

In june on 2007 I was trapped on 91 freeway because of an 80 acre brush fire.

It later turned out that “boy friend” Iftekhar Murtaza extracted brutal revenge on his girl friend Shayona Dhanak who tried to break off relations with him.

He extracted revenge against his victims by beating and burning them, as the papers describe (but, he missed his prime target because she was gone at the time):

On May 22, authorities discovered the severely burned bodies of Jayprakash Dhanak, 56, and his 20-year-old daughter, Karishma, at the park, just steps from an entrance to Concordia. Hours earlier, wife and mother Leela Dhanak, 53, had been found severely beaten and unconscious outside the family’s home, which had been set ablaze. The victims had been strangled, bludgeoned, burned and stabbed, according to court records [note Leela Dhanaka gave evidence while in being treated which lead to the capture -ed].

Authorities described Murphy as a friend of Iftekhar Murtaza, 22 , of Van Nuys [and found in Arizona trying to flee the country--ed], the former boyfriend of the younger Dhanak sister, Shayona. She was away from home during the attacks.

Boyfriend sought in O.C. slayings is extradited

2nd man charged in Anaheim Hills slayings

Third man is held in double slaying

Note, I have not heard if the perps were punished or set free.

Ledger1 Wed, Feb 18, 2009 3:16:39am

In ~~june~~ may of 2007 I was trapped...

I am still so angry about the whole thing and can't type!

roberth Wed, Feb 18, 2009 4:10:40am

Officially sanctioned domestic violence.

wolfgang Wed, Feb 18, 2009 4:20:53am

Then Al Capone could have just plead innocent after the Saint Valentine's Day massacre by claiming they were honor killings sanctioned by his religion.
Ah yes, the wonders of Life under Sharia Law, and the Mysticical OBAMBI has promised to show us the way.

chicago blonde Wed, Feb 18, 2009 7:05:45am

In some cases, taxi drivers, neighbors, and mosque members prevent the targeted woman from fleeing, report her whereabouts to her family, and subsequently conspire to thwart police investigations.

Anyone else think that sounds like something out of Rosemary's Baby?

100

Emery Calame Wed, Feb 18, 2009 7:55:26am

Here in the US "Honor killing" is first degree murder due to the obvious element of premeditation. It's unambiguosuly against the law and one of the most heinous and inexcusable forms of criminal. It's a capital crime in fact. The guy confessed.

So let's put the muderous fool on trial and lock him up already (or execute him if that's what the sentence is).

101

irishlas Wed, Feb 18, 2009 8:30:13am

Same Shit > different day

102

perpetua Wed, Feb 18, 2009 12:46:36pm

re: #100 Emery Calame

Here in the US "Honor killing" is first degree murder due to the obvious element of premeditation. It's unambiguosuly against the law and one of the most heinous and inexcusable forms of criminal. It's a capital crime in fact. The guy confessed.

So let's put the muderous fool on trial and lock him up already (or execute him if that's what the sentence is).

Actually, in the New York beheading case, the newspapers are reporting the planned charge is second degree murder.

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