Monday Morning Bow

World • Views: 3,964

Here’s an open thread for Monday morning, for everyone who wants to yell at me some more for pointing out that by bowing to King Abdullah, Barack Obama was simply following the well-documented, well-known tradition of US Presidents to pander to the Saudis.

To sum up, presidential pandering to the Saudis has been going on for decades, it didn’t start with Barack Obama, and it’s purely hypocritical to make excuses for George W. Bush while screaming that Obama did something no other President has ever done.

America has been bowing to Saudi Arabia for a long time, and it’s going to continue until we wean ourselves off their oil.

UPDATE at 4/6/09 9:43:03 am:

And another wake-up call for anyone who thinks Americans shouldn’t bow to anyone: John Adams kowtowed before King George III.

From Adams’ letter to Secretary of State John Jay:

I went with his Lordership thro’ the Levee Room into the King’s Closet, the Door was shut and I was left with his Majesty and the Secretary of State alone. I made the three Reverences, one at the Door, another about half way and the third before the Presence, according to the usage established at this and all the Northern Courts of Europe, and then addressed myself to his Majesty in the following words…

Jump to bottom

452 comments
1 saberry0530  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:27:30am

America has been bowing to Saudi Arabia for most of the past century, and it’s going to continue until we wean ourselves off their oil.
0

AMEN!

2 Chicken Kiev  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:27:48am

another day in paradise

3 BLBfootballs  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:27:51am

Could not agree more -- our obeisance to the Saudis is a national, bipartisan problem. And it does not speak well to our national values.

4 wiffersnapper  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:27:58am

When King Abdullah get to fist pound with Barry?

5 CIA Reject  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:28:07am
"America has been bowing to Saudi Arabia for most of the past century, and it’s going to continue until we wean ourselves off their oil."

Without nuclear power plants? Don't hold your breath ...

6 doppelganglander  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:28:08am

I've got no problem with you pointing out the truth. I thought that's what we did around here.

In today's good news file, the Supreme Court turned down Mumia's request for a new trial.

7 mikalm  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:28:27am

Agree 100%. Kissing Saudi a$$ didn't start with 0bama, and it won't end until we decide to stop subsidizing them with petrodollars.

8 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:28:38am

This is Obama Derangement Syndrome, in your face. And for trying to bring a little sanity to the discussion, I'm getting hate mail and abuse.

Stone the unfaithful monkey!

9 Attaboid  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:28:47am

Oy well!

10 JacksonTn  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:28:48am

Well, if he starts saying morning prayers in Arabic ... can I then say his winds are blowing in the wrong direction ... oh, wait ...

11 Dianna  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:29:00am

Are we dead sure we won't go right on kow-towing, just from habit?

12 John  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:29:01am

I'm not expecting anything good to come about during the present administration, including weaning ourselves off foreign oil.

13 Shug  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:29:15am

Thanks for pointing this out.

Obama derangement syndrome does us no good

14 Big Steve  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:29:26am

Actually Charles......we know you killed the lounge but can you put the lizard back on the top right.....he was oddly comforting.

15 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:29:45am

What was engraved on that medallion that the Caravan Robber Chieftain King Abdullah hung around Bush's neck? "Property of the Ummah"?

16 pink freud  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:29:47am

re: #7 mikalm

Agree 100%. Kissing Saudi a$$ didn't start with 0bama, and it won't end until we decide to stop subsidizing them with petrodollars.

We really should put an end to their subsidizing our halls of higher education, also.

17 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:30:41am

Well, I'll say that my first reaction to the "bow" was that the US has been sucking up to the Saudis for years. I didn't know Bush bowed as well, but it doesn't surprise me.

And this is one reason I supported Rudy!

18 brookly red  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:30:59am

re: #16 pink freud

Good point.

19 Shug  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:31:09am

When does President Obama do his obligatory sword dance?

20 Big Steve  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:31:49am

re: #19 Shug

When does President Obama do his obligatory sword dance?

maybe can just have him barf on someone like Bush 1.

21 yma o hyd  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:31:56am

re: #8 Charles

This is Obama Derangement Syndrome, in your face. And for trying to bring a little sanity to the discussion, I'm getting hate mail and abuse.

Stone the unfaithful monkey!

That figures - shining light on ODS is like taking the security blanket from a child ... can't have that!

{Charles}


(I'm allowed a hug, I'm a Welsh granny!)

22 Killgore Trout  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:31:57am

re: #16 pink freud

I think Rudy was our only chance and fundamental change. He wouldn't have ended our relationship with the Hauz of Saud but there would have been a very different tone.

23 Ben Hur  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:31:59am

HOW WEIRD IS THIS?!?

Read this:

'Israel doesn't take orders from Obama,' minister Erdan says

"In voting for [Prime Minister Binyamin] Netanyahu the citizens of Israel have decided that they will not become the US's fifty first state,"

Heard this:

Youtube Video
24 medaura18586  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:32:09am

Charles,

My kudos. You've widened the front of war: anti-vaccination insanity, Obama Derangement Syndrome, pot banning, creationism,.. Am I missing something here?

I can't wait til abortion comes up explicitly. Will be enjoying the show!

No, truly though, I am impressed.

25 Nevergiveup  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:32:23am

re: #17 Kosh's Shadow

Well, I'll say that my first reaction to the "bow" was that the US has been sucking up to the Saudis for years. I didn't know Bush bowed as well, but it doesn't surprise me.

And this is one reason I supported Rudy!

I didn't have the stomach to watch the other day. Was Bush Bowing like Obama or bending over so the Despot could but the medal around his neck? Just asking.

26 albusteve  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:32:23am

I'm far more upset about the MofH Ball he blew off that POS...I believe that was a first

27 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:32:39am

re: #14 Big Steve

You reeeeeeeally liked that Lizard, didn't you?

28 wrenchwench  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:32:49am

That's a pretty stand-up post. Maybe it should be retitled. "Monday Morning Stand Up." Er, nevermind.....

29 Ben Hur  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:33:04am

The picture of Bush "bowing" yesterday was him lowering his head for the King to put a medal on him.

30 Leonidas Hoplite  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:33:11am

We've got bigger fish to fry than this. I wonder, did john Adams render the traditional respect to George III and if he did, does anyone really give a crap?

31 Afrocity  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:33:13am

re: #16 pink freud

We really should put an end to their subsidizing our halls of higher education, also.

I could not agree with you more. Every university i have worked at has huge endowments from them. The IVY's are really guilty of this. Less Americans are giving and they need to do something about it but I am guilty as I send money to my state school before the IVy i attended. I think the same goes for our landmark real estate.

32 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:33:17am

re: #8 Charles

This is Obama Derangement Syndrome, in your face. And for trying to bring a little sanity to the discussion, I'm getting hate mail and abuse.

Stone the unfaithful monkey!

I agree, Charles. I knew there was a reason I didn't jump right on the whole Obama bowing thing. It was just a feeling I had.

33 Big Steve  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:33:18am

re: #27 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

You reeeeeeeally liked that Lizard, didn't you?

Yes......I.......did.......and I want him back damnit!

34 victor_yugo  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:33:26am

"Bow"? I was thinking maybe a rainbow or a pink bow in a girl's hair.

Way to harsh my groove, Charles.

/

35 lawhawk  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:33:27am

Here's your Monday Morning Arrow. All signs are pointing down at the moment.

Charles is absolutely right that the US has been kowtowing to the Saudis for far too long and has done nothing to wean itself from its dependency on oil, particularly from the Middle East and other failed states like Venezuela. The Department of Energy was created to solve energy problems****, and yet here we are with no replacement technology on the horizon and the eco-left is still playing games to prevent alternative technologies from moving forward, including nuclear power to provide clean electricity to the grid that could power electric vehicles. Solar and wind installations are similarly thwarted because of eco-left concerns.

**** created by none other than President Jimmy Carter in 1977 to "solve" the energy crisis. The only thing it's done is create a new bureaucracy that has been unable to create a single watt of power.

36 ladycatnip  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:33:29am

So Bush has bowed to the king as well? I thought he just held hands with the guy. ;-)

37 Nevergiveup  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:33:39am

18:44 EU envoy: Annapolis `binding` on Israel because it was endorsed by UN (Reuters)

Hum? What about ICBM launches?

38 John  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:34:08am

The Dow's down 150, and the Teleprompter isn't even back in the country.

39 MandyManners  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:34:11am

re: #25 Nevergiveup

I didn't have the stomach to watch the other day. Was Bush Bowing like Obama or bending over so the Despot could but the medal around his neck? Just asking.

The latter.

40 Killgore Trout  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:34:12am

re: #29 Ben Hur

The picture of Bush "bowing" yesterday was him lowering his head for the King to put a medal on him.

The kissing was a mere display of affection.

41 Oxnuts  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:34:17am

I don't think I would ever bow to anyone to show a sign of submission. I would shake hands, or bow to the Japanese (as that is their form of handshake). But i would not bow to someone because they were a king or queen. I will not show that form of submission to someone who thinks they are above anyone else.

42 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:34:29am

re: #6 doppelganglander

I've got no problem with you pointing out the truth. I thought that's what we did around here.

In today's good news file, the Supreme Court turned down Mumia's request for a new trial.

Fry Mumia!

43 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:34:37am

re: #23 Ben Hur

Yep it's great news. Erdan basically told Obama that he can't just shout orders from atop his unicorn and expect Israel to simply obey.

44 alegrias  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:34:40am

In the case of President Bush I, the Saudis did allow us to put military bases in their country so we could attack Saddam Hussein in 1990/91.

THAT was a quid pro quo in my opinion. Too bad we didn't finish the job while the Saudis let us use their country as a staging area against Iraq at that time.

45 jcm  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:34:41am

re: #8 Charles

This is Obama Derangement Syndrome, in your face. And for trying to bring a little sanity to the discussion, I'm getting hate mail and abuse.

Stone the unfaithful monkey!

At least no one is spanking the monkey......

*runs*

46 LGoPs  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:35:10am

The bowing should be reversed. Abduallah should be bowing to us for several good reasons:
- His oil. Without our engineers and expertise the oil would still be in the ground
- For letting him keep the oil. If we really were as imperialistic and evil as we're accused of being, why wouldn't we just own his oil fiields. It's certainly not due to the prowess of his army that he keeps them.
- We saved his country from becoming part of Iraq

47 funky chicken  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:35:15am
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[Link: www.usgs.gov...]

48 jester6  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:35:26am

I agree we have been too light on the Saudis. But putting your head down to get a medal (a sign of honor from the granting party) is not the same as bowing to the Saudi King.

Even if it is not a sign of subservience, it is another sign of his lack of experience and skills. Add the bow to calling the UK England and referring to the language of Austria as Austrian and he does look like a light weight.

49 Gella  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:35:29am

bowing to Saudis is pretty much like making deal with a devil

50 MandyManners  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:35:35am

I don't understand why people would send nasty-grams to Charles just because he has a different POV. Differing POV's are what make life rich!

51 albusteve  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:35:35am

re: #44 alegrias

In the case of President Bush I, the Saudis did allow us to put military bases in their country so we could attack Saddam Hussein in 1990/91.

THAT was a quid pro quo in my opinion. Too bad we didn't finish the job while the Saudis let us use their country as a staging area against Iraq at that time.

seize their oil?....I agree

52 Nevergiveup  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:35:39am

re: #39 MandyManners

The latter.

Well that is different in a way. Still disgusts me but it is different. At least in my opinion. But all in all, I'd rather just build a few Nuclear Power Plants anyway.

53 ladycatnip  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:35:48am

#40 Killgore Trout

The kissing was a mere display of affection.

So they've held hands and now they're kissing...

54 Ben Hur  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:35:49am

re: #40 Killgore Trout

The kissing was a mere display of affection.


Hey. I made it clear during the original thread, that I held the "bow" up there in disgust just like the sword dance.

Just pointing out that the picture used yesterday was not of Bush bowing.

55 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:35:55am

I just missed Sri Lanka by 7,000 kilometers on a geography game.

Re-defining suck.

56 rexatosis  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:36:05am

We have a ton of energy supplies in this country, unfortunately the political class has made it damn near impossible to use any of them including hydro-electric, wind, and solar even without the ubiquitous solar panels (just try and hang your clothes on a clothesline in many suburban communities). So instead we go begging to others for energy.

57 lurking faith  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:36:07am

As soon as I realized how much the Saudis had to do with worldwide terrorism, every excessively friendly gesture on our side began to make me angry.

As always, Charles, I'm happy to hang out here, because here the truth actually matters to people.

58 Opinionated  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:36:35am

I responded on the dead thread before I saw this one, I'll copy it here:

Receiving a medal from the Saudis is bad. Dancing with them is bad. Doing business with them is bad. Not recognizing them for what they are is bad.

So Bush and other American Presidents acted badly.

I'm sorry, but this was different.

No one else bowed. Did someone in his entourage advice Obama to bow- that person should be fired.

Or is there something innate in Obama that causes an instinctive Bow to the Saudi King- and to the Saudi King ONLY.

I don't know how you now dismiss it Charles, when in real time it struck you enough to immediately post a thread.

Think me irrational and deranged but it bothers me.

59 S'latch  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:37:03am

This is an oddity:

It is generally acknowledged that Bush Derangement Syndrome harmed George W. Bush's presidency, and yet, there is legitimate fear that Obama Derangement Syndrome might benefit Barack Obama's.

I guess it depends on whose ox is deranged.

60 LionofDixon  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:37:45am

No American President should ever bow to another person....ever. The only fealty the President has is to the American people.

However, I will say this.....Obama looked like he had been practicing for a very long time the act of prostrating himself in front of an Islamic potentate. Something was all too natural about his bow.

61 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:37:54am

re: #47 funky chicken

[Link: www.usgs.gov...]

That's a rich find. Too bab the 0 won't let America touch a drop of it.

62 Afrocity  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:38:12am

re: #41 Oxnuts

I don't think I would ever bow to anyone to show a sign of submission. I would shake hands, or bow to the Japanese (as that is their form of handshake). But i would not bow to someone because they were a king or queen. I will not show that form of submission to someone who thinks they are above anyone else.

I would curtsy to the Queen of England.

63 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:38:19am

re: #48 jester6

I agree we have been too light on the Saudis. But putting your head down to get a medal (a sign of honor from the granting party) is not the same as bowing to the Saudi King.

Yes, it is. It's worse, in fact. Accepting praise from the Saudis is like getting kissed by the devil.

64 BLBfootballs  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:38:24am

re: #31 Afrocity

I could not agree with you more. Every university i have worked at has huge endowments from them. The IVY's are really guilty of this. Less Americans are giving and they need to do something about it but I am guilty as I send money to my state school before the IVy i attended. I think the same goes for our landmark real estate.

I think it's much more advisable for Americans to refuse to give money to any university that accepts money from Saudi Arabia or any other unfree country. Once a university shows it's willingness to reject blood money and tyranny cash, my willingness to donate in support will increase many-fold. My appreciation will be expressed monetarily.

I bet that the first universities that begin rejecting tyranny cash will reap an enormous windfall in private American donations that far outstrip the blood endowments.

65 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:38:34am
66 funky chicken  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:38:37am

re: #22 Killgore Trout

I think Rudy was our only chance and fundamental change. He wouldn't have ended our relationship with the Hauz of Saud but there would have been a very different tone.

McCain is a huge backer of nuclear power, and has been for years. He and Palin were also committed to domestic production of oil. You think Palin's an idiot, but she at least would have been a hell of a lot better than Obama on domestic oil production, and she would have been McCain's understudy.

67 LGoPs  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:38:40am

re: #53 ladycatnip

#40 Killgore Trout


So they've held hands and now they're kissing...

Both are common in that region. Holding hands connites friendship. I lived there and even though holding hands creeped me out it meant nothing but friendship. And as far as cjeek kissing goes, that is a tradition of respect that extends into Europe as well. Nothing conveyed other than respect and friendship.

68 ladycatnip  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:38:57am

#59 Lawrence Schmerel

I guess it depends on whose ox is deranged getting gored.

FIFY

69 albusteve  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:39:14am

re: #61 Dark_Falcon

That's a rich find. Too bab the 0 won't let America touch a drop of it.

it's criminal and even treasonous imo

70 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:39:16am

re: #66 funky chicken

McCain is a huge backer of nuclear power, and has been for years. He and Palin were also committed to domestic production of oil. You think Palin's an idiot, but she at least would have been a hell of a lot better than Obama on domestic oil production, and she would have been McCain's understudy.

Agreed.

71 Mithrax  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:39:28am

re: #50 MandyManners

I don't understand why people would send nasty-grams to Charles just because he has a different POV. Differing POV's are what make life rich!

Because far too many people assume that "my way is right and anything different is wrong".

I don't know for sure, but I'm starting to speculate that it's getting worse culturally.

72 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:39:37am

Charles, we'll have to agree to disagree. (Although I've never been clear about how two people can NOT agree to disagree... but anyway.) I am not part of the "impeach him for this!" crowd, and have certainly not sent you hate mail. But one was a bow, the other wasn't. Obama screwed up the protocol badly (kindest interpretation).

73 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:39:42am

re: #58 Opinionated

I don't know how you now dismiss it Charles, when in real time it struck you enough to immediately post a thread.

Think me irrational and deranged but it bothers me.

And when I posted that first thread, I pointed out the same thing. This outrage is hypocritical. All presidents pander to the Saudis. You're letting your dislike of Barack Obama lead you into intellectual dishonesty.

74 Nevergiveup  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:39:57am

re: #63 Charles

Yes, it is. It's worse, in fact. Accepting praise from the Saudis is like getting kissed by the devil.

I thought one of me ex girlfriends was the devil and I actually slept....ah ..never mind.

75 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:40:04am

re: #55 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I just missed Sri Lanka by 7,000 kilometers on a geography game.

Re-defining suck.

Good thing you weren't trying to find it on a ship, or you would have missed; you'd just Ceylon.

76 Ben Hur  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:40:06am

Saw a post on another site (can't remember where) comparing the NYTIMES coverage of a Hillary bow in the early 90s (They were outraged!) compared to the silence over The One's bow.

BBL

77 LGoPs  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:40:06am

connites = connotes.
I can't seem to type anymore.......
:(

78 Shug  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:40:21am

McCain wouldn't have bowed to the Saudis


/ ( he can't bend over)

79 S'latch  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:40:22am

re: #68 ladycatnip

Gore Derangement Syndrome?

80 Ford_Prefect  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:40:34am

The President of the United States of America should bow to NO ONE. This goes for any POTUS.

81 dhg4  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:40:38am

Apparently Truman didn't show sufficient deference to the Saudis.

It is the question of consultation that is the key. FDR wouldn't have made promises about what he would do in the future but he apparently agreed to consult with them. That was what became a big issue. They felt that Truman never consulted with them, except just before something happened.

For example, at the UN, Faisal, Abdulaziz's second son, was blindsided by the United States move forward for a Jewish state. It wasn't an active negotiation process. It wasn't even an active dialogue. They didn't feel they were consulted. Truman's response was, "Of course you were consulted. I was never unclear about what I was going to do."

In fact, Truman was unclear about what he was going to do. Truman heard arguments from both sides and wasn't really sure until three days before he decides on the recognition of Israel. That's the part the Arabs felt that FDR had promised them. If nothing else they would be consulted on how to proceed and it turned out they were not.

(Source: SUSRIS - this is a commemoration the first meeting between FDR and ibn Saud.)

82 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:40:45am

re: #62 Afrocity

I would curtsy to the Queen of England.

I would, too, just to freak her out.

83 ladycatnip  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:40:55am

#67 LGoPs

Thanks for the info. I forgot to put a sarc tag.

84 Opinionated  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:40:56am

re: #37 Nevergiveup

18:44 EU envoy: Annapolis `binding` on Israel because it was endorsed by UN (Reuters)

Charles will disagree but here is where you see where the Bow is going.

The Foreign Minister of Israel says that Annapolis is not binding on Israel because it was never legally approved in accordance with Israeli law- we Americans with Advice and Consent should easily understand that concept- and not days later Obama sticks it to Israel by his own interpretation that Israeli legal necessities mean nothing to him.

85 Ben Hur  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:40:57am

BEHEAD MEDAL WINNING OLYMPIANS!

ESPECIALLY THE TALL ONES!

86 limeshurbet  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:41:21am

1. I have no problem with Charles taking issue with ANY US President receiving a medal from any member of the Saudi royal family.

2. I have no problem with Charles taking issue with Obama BOWING to any member of the Saudi royal family while NOT receiving a medal.

3. I have a BIG PROBLEM with Charles claiming that Bush leaning over to receive a medal and Obama bowing FOR NO REASON WHATSOEVER is the SAME THING.

It isn't! And for Charles to claim it is is disingenuous at best, and what's worse, CHARLES KNOWS IT.

That is what makes this so very disappointing coming from him.

87 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:41:22am
88 Laugh a Lot  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:41:33am

Hey LGF,

I read you nearly every day, though I seldom post. Echo chamber and all that — it always seems boringly redundant. But I've got to say on this "bowing" matter you sound a little defensive. Perhaps because you know the headline and the video don't really jibe. GWB is leaning over so the fat Saudi misogynist can adjust George's lapdog collar. It's similar to Obama's submissive pose, I suppose, but different enough to expect such a dishonest posting at any number of far-left sites, but not here, where the honesty is always full on. There's no doubt that Bush "bowed" to the Saudis in any number of symbolic ways so we could continue to drink their oil, but since the intellectual efforts of reading symbolism are so often lost on the loony left, why give them a pretend picture to drive the point home. Must we do their thinking for them, too?

89 LionOfDixon  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:41:34am

re: #63 Charles

At least the devil will give you a little tongue! A kiss from an old Saudi prince is like......well, getting kissed by an old Saudi prince....er,..camel.

90 Ringo the Gringo  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:41:37am

At least President Obama didn't kiss him on the mouth or walk through the garden holding hands.

If anything, Bush's behavior has been worse....Of course President Obama is only just getting started.

91 Nevergiveup  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:41:45am

Rain and snow for the Met's Opener. Ah Baseball in April.

92 alegrias  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:41:48am

re: #19 Shug

When does President Obama do his obligatory sword dance?

* * * *
Military sword dances are traditionally done by warriors, in mock displays of war. So no, I don't see Obama doing something like that.

93 Afrocity  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:41:51am

re: #66 funky chicken

McCain is a huge backer of nuclear power, and has been for years. He and Palin were also committed to domestic production of oil. You think Palin's an idiot, but she at least would have been a hell of a lot better than Obama on domestic oil production, and she would have been McCain's understudy.

I want Palin to be my president someday. I know that is not a popular opinion here but I think she is brilliant.

94 KenJen  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:42:02am

Forget the bow. Lets focus on the Dow. Barry is going to kill this economy with taxes, taxes, taxes.

95 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:42:08am

re: #67 LGoPs

Both are common in that region. Holding hands connites friendship. I lived there and even though holding hands creeped me out it meant nothing but friendship. And as far as cjeek kissing goes, that is a tradition of respect that extends into Europe as well. Nothing conveyed other than respect and friendship.

Kissing ass, however....

96 Afrocity  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:42:22am

re: #79 Lawrence Schmerel

Gore Derangement Syndrome?

What someone put ice cubes in his organic cotton briefs?

97 funky chicken  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:42:23am

re: #59 Lawrence Schmerel

This is an oddity:

It is generally acknowledged that Bush Derangement Syndrome harmed George W. Bush's presidency, and yet, there is legitimate fear that Obama Derangement Syndrome might benefit Barack Obama's.

I guess it depends on whose ox is deranged.

Clinton Derangement Syndrome did huge damage to the GOP. It opened the big tent up to the lunatics who believe that Hillary somehow gave the USSS the slip to go to that park to shoot Vince Foster, among other bizarre stuff.

The dems have the media on their side, so CDS and ODS is going to be used to paint the GOP as a bunch of cranks.

98 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:42:23am
America has been bowing to Saudi Arabia for most of the past century, and it’s going to continue until we wean ourselves off their oil.

I usually don't take issue with you, Charles, but this is a bit inaccurate. America has only been bowing to the Saudis (and OPEC for that matter) since 1973. Previous to that, the oil exploration companies in Saudi were foreign-owned, and did not always do as the Saudis wanted. After the takeover of Saudi Aramco by the Saudi government, all the money from the profits of the oil taken out of Saudi Arabia went to them.

A short history of Saudi Aramco:

In the 1930s, oil was discovered on the Sadui Peninsula (Persian Gulf side). In 1933, Saudi Aramco was created as a concession by the Saudi government for Standard of California (Chevron). Three years later, Texaco bought into it. Other oil companies followed. In 1950, the Saudi king threatened to nationalize Saudi Aramco (as had already happened in Venezuela). Over the next 30 years, the Saudi kingdom bought into Saudi Aramco, and then took majority control in 1974. They completed the purchase in 1980. Wiki has a decent, albeit short, article on Saudi Aramco with a timeline.

99 victor_yugo  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:42:35am

re: #85 Ben Hur

BEHEAD MEDAL WINNING OLYMPIANS!

ESPECIALLY THE TALL ONES!

I thought Uday and Qusay were dead?

100 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:42:38am

re: #55 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I just missed Sri Lanka by 7,000 kilometers on a geography game.

Your application to Strategic Air Command has been DENIED.

:P

101 lifeofthemind  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:42:41am

re: #37 Nevergiveup

18:44 EU envoy: Annapolis `binding` on Israel because it was endorsed by UN (Reuters)

Hum? What about ICBM launches?

No time limits or intervening events for them? Okay then, the Treaty of Versailles is still in effect so Prussia goes back to Germany and Putin can get his troops out of Konigsberg. The Treaty of Sèvres is back in force, that should please the Turks no end. We can go on with this nonsense until the followers of Mohammed are brought up on charges for oath and treaty breaking and the Jews get back Yathrib.

102 Ford_Prefect  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:42:55am

re: #86 limeshurbet

Um, you know that Charles is here, right?

103 albusteve  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:42:58am

re: #86 limeshurbet

accepting the medal was worse than the bow to me....

104 LGoPs  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:43:00am

re: #72 Occasional Reader

Charles, we'll have to agree to disagree. (Although I've never been clear about how two people can NOT agree to disagree... but anyway.) I am not part of the "impeach him for this!" crowd, and have certainly not sent you hate mail. But one was a bow, the other wasn't. Obama screwed up the protocol badly (kindest interpretation).

I agree.

105 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:43:12am

re: #69 albusteve

it's criminal and even treasonous imo

Criminal and treasonous could describe many of Obama's actions. He doesn't see it that way, of course. He sees it as "protecting our natural beauty" while gaining Enviromentalist support. The damage done to America doesn't occur to him, and if it did, he'd say sending our wealth overseas is a good thing.

106 yma o hyd  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:43:40am

re: #37 Nevergiveup

18:44 EU envoy: Annapolis `binding` on Israel because it was endorsed by UN (Reuters)

Hum? What about ICBM launches?

Good question.
What about the Non-Proliferation Treaty, Iran?

107 Opinionated  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:43:44am

re: #73 Charles

And when I posted that first thread, I pointed out the same thing. This outrage is hypocritical. All presidents pander to the Saudis. You're letting your dislike of Barack Obama lead you into intellectual dishonesty.

American Presidents have pandered politically, the Bush's some even more.

A bow is a personal expression of subservience. Show me a comparison in a physical gesture Reagan ever did vis a vis a Saudi King and the subject is closed.

108 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:44:04am

re: #84 Opinionated

Charles will disagree but here is where you see where the Bow is going.

The Foreign Minister of Israel says that Annapolis is not binding on Israel because it was never legally approved in accordance with Israeli law- we Americans with Advice and Consent should easily understand that concept- and not days later Obama sticks it to Israel by his own interpretation that Israeli legal necessities mean nothing to him.

Why should Israeli law mean anything to him when the US Constitution doesn't?

109 Big Steve  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:44:25am

Bowing to Saudi King is certainly goofy and anachronistic and it is sad that we have to care about these guys at all. Presidents, regardles of whom they are, should take a page from the Olympics where the "US flag dips for no mortal man."

110 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:44:29am

re: #87 buzzsawmonkey

"I will be saturated with ever-fresh oil."

--Psalms

Sounds more like a quote from this source.

111 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:44:48am

re: #88 Laugh a Lot

GAZE

112 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:44:49am

re: #45 jcm

At least no one is spanking the monkey......

*runs*

heeeere monkey monkey monkey!

113 victor_yugo  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:44:50am

re: #96 Afrocity

What someone put ice cubes in his organic cotton briefs?

It's already a hundred below in there. Why do you think his mansion uses so much electricity?

114 Russkilitlover  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:44:50am

Bow - not a problem.
iPod - not a problem.

(DVD's? Okay, problem.)

I'm more fucking concerned about his asining positions, projection of weakness to the world, and his take over moves towards private corporate America!

115 saylorfam  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:45:09am

re: #6 doppelganglander


I am so very tired of this travesty of justice. Maureen Faulkner, is still trying to get her life back together and get justice for her murdered husband Officer Danny Faulkner. I am sorry his case continues to wast the courts time.

116 Ringo the Gringo  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:45:12am

This is why I like Rudy Giuliani, he would never have kised, bowed, sword danced or held hands with any of these Saudi creeps.

117 albusteve  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:45:21am

re: #105 Dark_Falcon

Criminal and treasonous could describe many of Obama's actions. He doesn't see it that way, of course. He sees it as "protecting our natural beauty" while gaining Enviromentalist support. The damage done to America doesn't occur to him, and if it did, he'd say sending our wealth overseas is a good thing.

that is a dangerous path....but I don't think he sees anything outside of his own utopia

118 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:45:47am

re: #63 Charles

Yes, it is. It's worse, in fact. Accepting praise from the Saudis is like getting kissed by the devil.

And they both probably have bad breath.

119 Wendya  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:45:48am

It's not just the oil. That is one reason we've been propping up the kingdom but it's not the only reason.

120 lurking faith  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:45:54am

POTUS bowing to the Saudi king = bad
POTUS accepting a medal from the Saudi king, plus many other extremely friendly gestures = bad

I think reasonable people can disagree over which is worse.

121 Nevergiveup  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:46:03am

re: #103 albusteve

accepting the medal was worse than the bow to me....

I gotta go with the bow being worse but I'll trade you 2 medals for one bow if we start building Nuclear Power Plants yesterday.

122 Shug  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:46:11am

re: #116 Ringo the Gringo

This is why I like Rudy Giuliani, he would never have kised, bowed, sword danced or held hands with any of these Saudi creeps.

I hope we get the chance to find out

123 Adrenalyn  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:46:21am

again, Bush is not President any longer
he is not part of the Saudi problem

he has nothing to do with 0bama bowing, curtsying, genuflecting or whatever it was he did with the King

score one for team 0bama for bringing Bush up again

124 wrenchwench  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:46:23am

re: #88 Laugh a Lot

There's no doubt that Bush "bowed" to the Saudis in any number of symbolic ways so we could continue to drink their oil, but since the intellectual efforts of reading symbolism are so often lost on the loony left, why give them a pretend picture to drive the point home. Must we do their thinking for them, too?

Do you mean we should pretend that Bush did not, symbolically or otherwise, bow to the Saudis because we might be able to fool the libs? I see no benefit in doing that.

125 LGoPs  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:46:32am

re: #116 Ringo the Gringo

This is why I like Rudy Giuliani, he would never have kised, bowed, sword danced or held hands with any of these Saudi creeps.

As I recall he famously refused money from a Saudi notable shortly after 9-11. He deserves great respect for that.

126 S'latch  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:46:55am

re: #97 funky chicken

I think you solved the puzzle. The media had Bush Deranged Syndrome. It was an affliction that they ignored to report. Now, the media can report Obama Derangement Syndrome without a hint of irony.

127 limeshurbet  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:46:56am

#102 - Um yeah. So?

#103 - I don't disagree. That, however, isn't my point.

128 vr430  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:46:57am

#58 You said it well.

While Charles is correct about the metaphoric bowing to the Saudis, for some reason he is refusing to acknowledge the physical act. And physical act perpetrated by 0bama is disgusting at best. Should he be impeached - of course not! But ridiculed - absolutely!

129 Dr. Shalit  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:46:58am

re: #25 Nevergiveup

I didn't have the stomach to watch the other day. Was Bush Bowing like Obama or bending over so the Despot could but the medal around his neck? Just asking.

Nevergiveup -

The bow was to get the medal as is clear from watching the whole clip rather than looking at a screen cap. Fauxtography is alive and well.

-S-

130 Afrocity  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:46:59am

re: #116 Ringo the Gringo

This is why I like Rudy Giuliani, he would never have kised, bowed, sword danced or held hands with any of these Saudi creeps.

I have mixed feelings about Rudy. He was my mayor. He will pander to the likes of Donald Trump who close a NYC 72nd street ramp just for his convenience.

131 Ringo the Gringo  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:47:01am

re: #125 LGoPs

As I recall he famously refused money from a Saudi notable shortly after 9-11. He deserves great respect for that.

Exactly.

132 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:47:02am
133 Adrenalyn  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:47:20am

re: #116 Ringo the Gringo

This is why I like Rudy Giuliani, he would never have kised, bowed, sword danced or held hands with any of these Saudi creeps.

yes !
not only did he refuse their money
he spanked them too

134 Nevergiveup  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:47:24am

re: #125 LGoPs

As I recall he famously refused money from a Saudi notable shortly after 9-11. He deserves great respect for that.

And he threw Arafat outa Lincoln Center!

135 BLBfootballs  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:47:34am

re: #98 Honorary Yooper

I usually don't take issue with you, Charles, but this is a bit inaccurate. America has only been bowing to the Saudis (and OPEC for that matter) since 1973. Previous to that, the oil exploration companies in Saudi were foreign-owned, and did not always do as the Saudis wanted. After the takeover of Saudi Aramco by the Saudi government, all the money from the profits of the oil taken out of Saudi Arabia went to them.

A short history of Saudi Aramco:

In the 1930s, oil was discovered on the Sadui Peninsula (Persian Gulf side). In 1933, Saudi Aramco was created as a concession by the Saudi government for Standard of California (Chevron). Three years later, Texaco bought into it. Other oil companies followed. In 1950, the Saudi king threatened to nationalize Saudi Aramco (as had already happened in Venezuela). Over the next 30 years, the Saudi kingdom bought into Saudi Aramco, and then took majority control in 1974. They completed the purchase in 1980. Wiki has a decent, albeit short, article on Saudi Aramco with a timeline.

Sorry, Yooper but Charles's description is correct. The Saudis tried to flex their whip in 1973, but the US (and England before it) has been bowing to the Saudi crown since at least the 1930s and '40s. Read about the history of early 20th Century oil exploration in the Arabian peninsula. By the 1940s FDR was basically kissing the feet of the Saudi king.

Subsequent American presidents of both parties have been walking in those footsteps....and wearing the rut ever deeper.

136 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:47:41am

re: #114 Russkilitlover

Bow - not a problem.
iPod - not a problem.

(DVD's? Okay, problem.)

I'm more fucking concerned about his asining positions, projection of weakness to the world, and his take over moves towards private corporate America!

And don't forget the multi-trillion dollar deficit spending.

137 lifeofthemind  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:48:02am

re: #116 Ringo the Gringo

This is why I like Rudy Giuliani, he would never have kised, bowed, sword danced or held hands with any of these Saudi creeps.

On the other hand Rudy has been known to wear a dress so they might like him.

138 Russkilitlover  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:48:05am

re: #60 LionofDixon

No American President should ever bow to another person....ever. The only fealty the President has is to the American people.

So they can never practice martial arts?
//////

139 albusteve  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:48:05am

re: #121 Nevergiveup

I gotta go with the bow being worse but I'll trade you 2 medals for one bow if we start building Nuclear Power Plants yesterday.

I said it before...SA is a disease, a blight on humanity...we should own that dirtpile....there is no excuse buddy up with these killers, none

140 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:48:07am

re: #79 Lawrence Schmerel

Gore Derangement Syndrome?

Lawrence, I dig your avatar. Who is that?

141 Zimriel  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:48:09am

Here is something that struck me about reading Jeff Goldstein this morning.

The meme out there on the Right is that LGF is an echo chamber; that here we only follow the party line. I say: the real echo chamber out there is in Goldstein / RSMcCain land, where all things hateful about Obama are aired, and the man is never EVER to be given the benefit of the doubt or viewed in American historical perspective.

Maybe they could have argued for a "hope Obama fails" perspective if they'd had a reputation for sober thinking and fairness; but it's clear that their stance has led them into madness. They have proven that they do not have an alternative to succeed should Obama fail. That is a recipe for anarchy and I must choose order.

So to hell with Goldstein and to hell with the extremists he has chosen. If I go over to their sites from here on, it is going to be to stand up for LGF and to mock their commenters.

142 Timbre  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:48:13am

I would never yell at you, Charles. You are the host with the most! You take great care to point out historical facts and realities that many are unaware or ignoring.

143 doppelganglander  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:48:23am

re: #115 saylorfam

I am so very tired of this travesty of justice. Maureen Faulkner, is still trying to get her life back together and get justice for her murdered husband Officer Danny Faulkner. I am sorry his case continues to wast the courts time.

That oxygen thief can't be executed soon enough for me. His death sentence was vacated in 2008 but he could be resentenced to death. The Supreme Court didn't rule on that.

144 gringo69  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:48:41am

I guess he is a muslim, after all, he still hasn't got the unclean dog for the kids. Bows to Saudis, geezers. spit

145 Zimriel  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:48:44am

On a related note, I have some patching up to do.

There are a few lizards that I have been harsh to over the past month. Some, I think, deserved it. One of them who certainly hasn't deserved it is Iron Fist. For what it is worth, Iron Fist, I am sorry for that comment I made about "not being sure I want you on my side". In general, I would prefer if we were on the same side; your posts are almost always eloquent and 90% of the time well reasoned, which is as good a track record as anyone else here.

146 alegrias  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:48:49am

re: #67 LGoPs

Both are common in that region. Holding hands connites friendship. I lived there and even though holding hands creeped me out it meant nothing but friendship. And as far as cjeek kissing goes, that is a tradition of respect that extends into Europe as well. Nothing conveyed other than respect and friendship.

* * *
This stuff goes on in Hollywood everyday.

147 lawhawk  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:49:00am

re: #130 Afrocity

Rudy wasn't mayor when the City closed that traffic ramp; that was on Bloomberg's watch.

148 S'latch  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:49:08am

re: #140 Ward Cleaver

It is I, and I did not evolve.

149 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:49:10am

re: #134 Nevergiveup

And he threw Arafat outa Lincoln Center!

Pity he couldn't have just looking at Arafish and said "Too little, throw him back in the East River." :D

/kidding

150 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:49:34am

re: #128 vr430

While Charles is correct about the metaphoric bowing to the Saudis, for some reason he is refusing to acknowledge the physical act.

The reason: it's stupid, and hypocritical, and intellectually dishonest.

151 Wendya  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:49:43am

re: #116 Ringo the Gringo

This is why I like Rudy Giuliani, he would never have kised, bowed, sword danced or held hands with any of these Saudi creeps.

It's a hell of a lot easier to do that as a Mayor than as a President. There is absolutely no gain at this point in time in alienating Saudi Arabia.

152 lawhawk  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:49:53am

re: #147 lawhawk

There's plenty of other stuff to knock Rudy on, but that isn't it. Rudy's close ties to Bernie Kerik for one thing.

153 Mr. In get Mr. Out  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:49:56am

re: #66 funky chicken

McCain is a huge backer of nuclear power, and has been for years. He and Palin were also committed to domestic production of oil. You think Palin's an idiot, but she at least would have been a hell of a lot better than Obama on domestic oil production, and she would have been McCain's understudy.

When the price of oil raises again, then others may be willing to make energy reform a greater issue. However, those "green" followers now calling for it tend to place too many restrictions on how the energy is produced. To become energy independent, it's going to take more than solar and wind. We need nuclear energy, but the infrastructure in this country too needs reformed. I don't know how much longer it will be feasible to have transportation without a viable rail system.

154 Nevergiveup  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:50:16am

re: #145 Zimriel

On a related note, I have some patching up to do.

There are a few lizards that I have been harsh to over the past month. Some, I think, deserved it. One of them who certainly hasn't deserved it is Iron Fist. For what it is worth, Iron Fist, I am sorry for that comment I made about "not being sure I want you on my side". In general, I would prefer if we were on the same side; your posts are almost always eloquent and 90% of the time well reasoned, which is as good a track record as anyone else here.

I don't remember you ever being harsh with me, but are there any cash prizes involved with these apologies?
/

155 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:50:19am

re: #148 Lawrence Schmerel

It is I, and I did not evolve.

Well, at least the pointy head would tend to deflect falling rocks.

156 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:50:26am

re: #129 Dr. Shalit

Nevergiveup -

The bow was to get the medal as is clear from watching the whole clip rather than looking at a screen cap. Fauxtography is alive and well.

-S-

Oh, bullshit. The video is right there, and I made it very clear that you should watch it in my post.

157 Opinionated  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:50:29am

re: #116 Ringo the Gringo

This is why I like Rudy Giuliani, he would never have kised, bowed, sword danced or held hands with any of these Saudi creeps.

America will never realize what it lost - particularly in this treacherous time both domestic and internationally- that Giuliani in not President.

Giuliani- the one American politician to ever publicly tell the Saudis to stick their crap back up their ass.

158 Big Steve  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:50:31am

The bowing issue is just a symptom, that Charles is trying to point out, of how politics has just become a "hurray for our side" thing. Everything that Obama does that makes your blood boil, you should first ask yourself, and do this honestly, would you have a different opinion if Reagan had done the same thing? I am sure if one looks hard enough we can find photos of Reagan following protocal with the Saudi's as well. Focus on the action, the intent, and what it might mean for the future and not the person.

159 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:50:46am

re: #119 Wendya

It's not just the oil. That is one reason we've been propping up the kingdom but it's not the only reason.

No, it's not just the oil. The Saudi royal family made a deal with the devil about a century and a half ago so they could control the peninsula (including Mecca and Medina). They made a deal with the Wahabbist fundamentalists. The royal family would get to control the holy cities, and they would leave the Wahabbis be to propogate their version of Islam. However, it is only the royal family right now that can keep a lid on the Wahabbis. Without the royals, it is entirely possible that the Wahabbis would be able to takeover Arabia in the same fashion the mullahs took over Iran in 1979.

160 Afrocity  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:51:10am

re: #147 lawhawk

Rudy wasn't mayor when the City closed that traffic ramp; that was on Bloomberg's watch.

I know, I was just using it as an example of the sort of muscle Trump uses and there were some things that Rudy allowed him to do involving the parks. Also the changing of the name of Central Park Children's zoo. I admire him but I would never vote for his as POTUS.

161 victor_yugo  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:51:31am

re: #149 Dark_Falcon

Pity he couldn't have just looking at Arafish and said "Too little, throw him back in the East River." :D

/kiddingNOT kidding

Better.

162 KenJen  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:51:34am

re: #133 Adrenalyn

yes !
not only did he refuse their money
he spanked them too

I dont know if it would be considered a step down for him but he would be great as the head of the RNC.

163 albusteve  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:51:36am

re: #151 Wendya

It's a hell of a lot easier to do that as a Mayor than as a President. There is absolutely no gain at this point in time in alienating Saudi Arabia.

they are killers...they finance murder and mayhem...what about the goddam principle of it?

164 alegrias  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:51:39am

re: #93 Afrocity

I want Palin to be my president someday. I know that is not a popular opinion here but I think she is brilliant.

* * * *
I prefer her heart of a lion & brain of a leader--an executive with humility, and all earned the hard way-- than what we have passing for leadership.

165 Nevergiveup  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:52:26am

re: #149 Dark_Falcon

Pity he couldn't have just looking at Arafish and said "Too little, throw him back in the East River." :D

/kidding

Well the Hudson River is closer.

166 Emerald  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:52:41am

Well, this just goes to show that the left has no monopoly on raving idiots so blinded by hatred that they can't see reality for what it is. Obama has plenty of real faults; getting hung up on the fake ones is counterproductive.

167 Laugh a Lot  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:52:42am

re: #124 wrenchwench

Do you mean we should pretend that Bush did not, symbolically or otherwise, bow to the Saudis because we might be able to fool the libs? I see no benefit in doing that.

No, not at all. I'm merely suggesting that fake pictures, or fake context — used to drive a point home for those who are largely incapable of reading — are what the other team uses. I'd prefer to see the discussion without the disingenuous props.

168 Pitiricus  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:52:57am

I know everyone condemn the French, but Sarkozy never bowed to the despot
Image: h-3-1082265.jpg

169 Adrenalyn  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:53:07am

for those who missed last nights thread about this
let me reiterate why I disagree with showing Bush leaning over to get a medal from the King

when Bush was POTUS, and my liberal friends and relatives would bash him, I would reply with
yeah, well Clinton did this too and that also

and their comeback was deadly effective

but Adrenalyn, Clinton is not President any more


I say the same thing about showing Bush getting a medal

he is not President any more

further, this is letting the left give it from both sides
it enables, emboldens and empowers them

170 wrenchwench  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:53:22am

re: #163 albusteve

they are killers...they finance murder and mayhem...what about the goddam principle of it?

You're not a politician, are you. What do principles have to do with it?

171 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:53:34am
172 Buck  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:53:38am

GWB walked ahnd in hand with the Oil Tick, and gave him a big smootch... I think that is worse than bowing.

The entire Bush family is wound up closer to the Saudi royals than anyone really knows.

GWBs pension plan is just starting to kick in, just like his fathers, and every other recent president...

AS we are too busy defending the "Jewish Lobby/influence" crap, we have never fully explored the all very real "Saudi Lobby/influence".

The funny part to me is that Mickey Moore did a pretty good job exposing the "Saudi Lobby/influence" in F/911. On that one point, Lizards and Mickey agree.

173 Afrocity  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:53:50am

My tummy is growling. Should get some lunch. Corned beef sandwich sounds good.

174 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:53:53am

re: #158 Big Steve

The bowing issue is just a symptom, that Charles is trying to point out, of how politics has just become a "hurray for our side" thing. Everything that Obama does that makes your blood boil, you should first ask yourself, and do this honestly, would you have a different opinion if Reagan had done the same thing? I am sure if one looks hard enough we can find photos of Reagan following protocal with the Saudi's as well. Focus on the action, the intent, and what it might mean for the future and not the person.

And wouldn't this act piss off the jihadis as well? I mean, by bowing to the king of an islamic country, don't the jihadis see this as bowing to a graven idol (compared to allah)?

175 Nevergiveup  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:53:59am

re: #168 Pitiricus

I know everyone condemn the French, but Sarkozy never bowed to the despot
[Link: medias.lepost.fr...]

Since I'm a tad vertically challenged myself, I will refrain from any height jokes. And anyway look at the babe he bagged?

176 Kragar  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:54:05am

They're at it again;

Israel harmed Gaza medical workers

Israeli and Palestinian human rights groups said Monday they have collected evidence that Israeli troops attacked Palestinian medical workers and delayed the evacuation of wounded people during the recent offensive in Gaza.

The Israeli branch of Physicians for Human Rights, along with the Palestinian Medical Relief Society, called for an independent investigation. The groups said they collected evidence from 44 people in Gaza. The testimonies were gathered by five international medical experts commissioned by the groups.

I wonder if our Norwegian medical friends were among the commissioned experts.

177 wrenchwench  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:54:15am

re: #167 Laugh a Lot

No, not at all. I'm merely suggesting that fake pictures, or fake context — used to drive a point home for those who are largely incapable of reading — are what the other team uses. I'd prefer to see the discussion without the disingenuous props.

What fake pictures and/or context?

178 JacksonTn  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:54:17am

You are so very right about it Charles ... I know for myself ... I don't even like the way Obama combs his hair ... I do not like so much about the man that it colors almost everything he says ... in my heart I can tell the difference between what he does and what almost every other president has and probably will continue to do ... it is just that from so many of Obama's past and present statements ... I just do not get the feeling that he always has America's best interest at heart ... I am hoping that he changes and performs for all Americans ... I especially hope he does for the sake of our military who continue to protect this country no matter who is in the White House ...

/posted this on the wrong thread before

Drill Here - Drill Now ...

179 Nevergiveup  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:54:34am

re: #173 Afrocity

My tummy is growling. Should get some lunch. Corned beef sandwich sounds good.

Sure your not Jewish?

180 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:54:38am

re: #86 limeshurbet

That is what makes this so very disappointing coming from him.

Somehow, I'll find a way to live with your disappointment.

181 albusteve  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:54:42am

re: #170 wrenchwench

You're not a politician, are you. What do principles have to do with it?

yea...touche

182 MandyManners  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:54:44am

re: #172 Buck

Google Baker Botts. That's Baker as in James Baker.

183 medaura18586  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:55:02am

re: #156 Charles

Oh, bullshit. The video is right there, and I made it very clear that you should watch it in my post.

Well, I didn't think Bush was literally bowing either, even after I watched the video. He needs to lower his head in order to get the medal around his neck.

But I don't think that's relevant to your general point that all U.S. presidents have displayed shameless servility toward the Saudis.

184 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:55:18am

re: #166 Emerald

Well, this just goes to show that the left has no monopoly on raving idiots so blinded by hatred that they can't see reality for what it is. Obama has plenty of real faults; getting hung up on the fake ones is counterproductive.

I'm not a raving idiot.
I'm not blinded by hatred.
Obama, in a formal greeting between heads of state, bowed to a Saudi monarch.
Bush did not.

Yes, there are much bigger issues with both the Obama presidency, with our relationship with the Saudis, etc. But one was a bow, the other wasn't.

Eppur si muove.

185 jcm  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:55:25am

re: #88 Laugh a Lot

I revise my earlier comment.

Someone is spanking the monkey.

186 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:55:44am

re: #87 buzzsawmonkey

"I will be saturated with ever-fresh oil."

--Psalms

5W-30?

187 BLBfootballs  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:55:47am
And another wake-up call for anyone who thinks American presidents shouldn’t bow to anyone: John Adams kowtowed before King George III.

I'd argue that context is everything.

re: #153 Mr. In get Mr. Out

I don't know how much longer it will be feasible to have transportation without a viable rail system.

Rail is probably not the answer -- it's likely that a road-and-car-based transport system is more economically sensible for large and geographically diffuse countries like the US and Canada.

188 Ford_Prefect  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:55:52am

Wow. It is pouring here right now.

189 Nevergiveup  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:56:14am

re: #188 Ford_Prefect

Wow. It is pouring here right now.

Where here?

190 albusteve  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:56:21am

re: #185 jcm

I revise my earlier comment.

Someone is spanking the monkey.

stand back everyone

191 Ford_Prefect  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:56:33am

re: #189 Nevergiveup

Where here?

Connecticut here.

192 jester6  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:56:42am

People grasp at things like this bow (which even though I think is worse than what Bush did it is relatively minor) because it is easy to explain.

There have been several events and credible reports about Obama seeking more control over the financial sector and refusing to take back tarp money. That issue should be a the number one issue every conservative commentator in the country is talking about - but it is too hard to put the pieces together and get people to read between the lines.

193 Capitalist Tool  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:56:54am

The world is and always has been ruled by Kings.
Doesn't matter what you call them, or even if you know their names.

194 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:57:00am

re: #172 Buck

GWB walked ahnd in hand with the Oil Tick, and gave him a big smootch... I think that is worse than bowing.

The entire Bush family is wound up closer to the Saudi royals than anyone really knows.

Yet despite that, Bush - for all his shortcomings even in this area - was the best friend that Israel has had in the White House since Reagan. And I doubt the Saudis were exactly thrilled with that.

195 Nevergiveup  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:57:04am

re: #191 Ford_Prefect

Connecticut here.

OK Right I remember now. I was in Groton from Thursday till Sunday.

196 Wendya  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:57:18am

re: #159 Honorary Yooper

No, it's not just the oil. The Saudi royal family made a deal with the devil about a century and a half ago so they could control the peninsula (including Mecca and Medina). They made a deal with the Wahabbist fundamentalists. The royal family would get to control the holy cities, and they would leave the Wahabbis be to propogate their version of Islam. However, it is only the royal family right now that can keep a lid on the Wahabbis. Without the royals, it is entirely possible that the Wahabbis would be able to takeover Arabia in the same fashion the mullahs took over Iran in 1979.

And without the United States by their side, there's a good chance the Royals would be removed. That would not be a good thing, regardless of how anyone feels about them. There are a lot of reasons why we continue to support the Saudis and oil is just one reason. I would wager it's not even the primary reason.

197 CIA Reject  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:57:24am

re: #184 Occasional Reader

I'm not a raving idiot.
I'm not blinded by hatred.
Obama, in a formal greeting between heads of state, bowed to a Saudi monarch.
Bush did not.

Yes, there are much bigger issues with both the Obama presidency, with our relationship with the Saudis, etc. But one was a bow, the other wasn't.

Eppur si muove.

I'm just happy that neither one of them curtsied.

/I'm easy to please I guess ...

198 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:57:30am

re: #167 Laugh a Lot

Keep insulting like this and I see a ban stick in your future.

GAZE

199 Buck  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:57:32am

re: #182 MandyManners

Google Baker Botts. That's Baker as in James Baker.

Of course, and high on the notable clients list... Prince Salman bin Abdul Aziz of Saudi Arabia

200 Afrocity  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:57:36am

re: #179 Nevergiveup

Sure your not Jewish?

LOL. I have a Jewish first name. I am also craving hamentashen and I wonder where can i get one in Chicago. I know it coming on Passover so they are popular now.

201 albusteve  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:57:41am

re: #191 Ford_Prefect

Connecticut here.

big whoop....it has not rained in ABQ in seven months...I'm starting to stink

202 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:57:50am

re: #183 medaura18586

Well, I didn't think Bush was literally bowing either, even after I watched the video. He needs to lower his head in order to get the medal around his neck.

But I don't think that's relevant to your general point that all U.S. presidents have displayed shameless servility toward the Saudis.

A bow is a bow is a bow. We can split hairs and say he bowed to receive a medal if you like -- but I see no difference whatsoever between that kind of bow and what Barack Obama did.

203 LionOfDixon  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:57:55am

re: #138 Russkilitlover

This was in his official capacity.....martial arts would be a private matter.

I can understand Obama's seemingly effortless display of subservience, obedience and humility. Marrying an angry, domineering, guilt-mongering shrew must engender such traits.

204 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:58:10am

re: #179 Nevergiveup

re: #173 Afrocity

My tummy is growling. Should get some lunch. Corned beef sandwich sounds good.

Sure your not Jewish?

No, she's a wannabe Irish, she's made that clear before!

:P

205 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:58:13am

Time for me to go. See you all this evening.

206 Ford_Prefect  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:58:18am

re: #195 Nevergiveup

OK Right I remember now. I was in Groton from Thursday till Sunday.

And you didn't stop in to say hi? I am insulted. /
Actually that is about 45 minutes from where I am.

207 Paul Sorene  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:58:25am

Obama was not bowing - he was contorting.

And he wasn't even contoring to Abdullah - he was meeting La Petit Garcon...

[Link: www.anorak.co.uk...]

208 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:58:37am

re: #176 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

They're at it again;

Israel harmed Gaza medical workers

I wonder if our Norwegian medical friends were among the commissioned experts.

Given that Hamas commandeered ambulances, etc., I'm sure some of the harm was done to "medical workers" whose main job was to perform a Jewectomy on the Mideaset.

209 Dr. Shalit  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:58:51am

re: #156 Charles

Oh, bullshit. The video is right there, and I made it very clear that you should watch it in my post.

Charles -

Respectful disagreement - saw the clip elsewhere before logging in. Where we agree is the bottom line that the Saudi regime is one we would pay no attention to and laugh at were it not for our petroleum needs, without which they would be as poor as the sands of the Arabian Desert.

-S-

210 The Monster  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:59:01am
And another wake-up call for anyone who thinks American presidents shouldn't bow to anyone: John Adams kowtowed before King George III.

Adams was not President when he did that; he was the first "Minister plenipotentiary". While I don't think it's good for an American diplomat to bow before a government official anywhere, it is particularly egregious for our President, himself both head of state and of government, to do so.

211 Nevergiveup  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:59:03am

re: #200 Afrocity

LOL. I have a Jewish first name. I am also craving hamentashen and I wonder where can i get one in Chicago. I know it coming on Passover so they are popular now.

Maybe your ancestors are from Ethiopia? You could be from my Tribe.

212 Ford_Prefect  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:59:05am

re: #201 albusteve

big whoop....it has not rained in ABQ in seven months...I'm starting to stink

So that's what that is.

213 subsailor68  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:59:10am

Dear President Obama,

With respect to the stimulus, the banks, AIG, the automotive industry, national health care, and any other economic areas in which you propose to involve government funding and/or oversight, there's someone who has a piece of advice for you:

"Government does not solve problems; it subsidizes them."
Ronald Reagan

214 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:59:47am

re: #153 Mr. In get Mr. Out

When the price of oil raises again, then others may be willing to make energy reform a greater issue. However, those "green" followers now calling for it tend to place too many restrictions on how the energy is produced. To become energy independent, it's going to take more than solar and wind. We need nuclear energy, but the infrastructure in this country too needs reformed. I don't know how much longer it will be feasible to have transportation without a viable rail system.

We do have a very viable rail transporation system in America. It's a myth that we do not have any what-so-ever. A large percentage of freight is transported by rail rather than by air or truck. Most containers that go to the coasts, for example, wind up on huge trains that take dozens of these containers (usually double-stacked) inland. What we do not have is a really viable passenger rail network outside of the Northeast (Bos-Wash). There are several reasons for this, and none of which will be resolved anytime soon. One of the major reasons has to do with distances. Unlike densely populated Europe, we have huge distances between cities. As stated before, we also carry far more feight by rail that Europe. US railroads carry four times as much freight as EU railroads.

215 Nevergiveup  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:00:00am

re: #206 Ford_Prefect

And you didn't stop in to say hi? I am insulted. /
Actually that is about 45 minutes from where I am.

I'm up there alot--next time.

216 Ringo the Gringo  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:00:02am

re: #159 Honorary Yooper

No, it's not just the oil. The Saudi royal family made a deal with the devil about a century and a half ago so they could control the peninsula (including Mecca and Medina). They made a deal with the Wahabbist fundamentalists. The royal family would get to control the holy cities, and they would leave the Wahabbis be to propogate their version of Islam. However, it is only the royal family right now that can keep a lid on the Wahabbis. Without the royals, it is entirely possible that the Wahabbis would be able to takeover Arabia in the same fashion the mullahs took over Iran in 1979.

That's the truth of it.

But without the oil, Saudi Arabia would as primitive as Afghanistan.

217 vr430  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:00:20am

re: #150 Charles

The reason: it's stupid, and hypocritical, and intellectually dishonest.

So in your view, bending to receive a medal and a subservient prostration bow are the same?

Again, I am talking about a physical act, not the metaphoric.

218 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:00:25am

Though I disagree with Charles on this or that detail and interpretation, his fundamental point (we've been groveling to the Saudis for decades regarding oil) is correct and is the operative issue here.

He's also correct that Obama Derangement Syndrome is present here in the threads. I stand chastized on that one.

/note that I say "present" -- grammar carefully chosen

219 lawhawk  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:00:49am

re: #151 Wendya

It's a hell of a lot easier to do that as a Mayor than as a President. There is absolutely no gain at this point in time in alienating Saudi Arabia.

You aren't alienating the Saudis by the President choosing not to bow to the King of Saudi Arabia. Apparently the Office of Protocol found it acceptable to bow to the King, just as it was acceptable to give Queen Elizabeth II an iPod stuffed with Obama memorabilia/mix tape or PM Brown got the DVD collection from Blockbuster.

220 Buck  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:01:19am

re: #194 Occasional Reader

Yet despite that, Bush - for all his shortcomings even in this area - was the best friend that Israel has had in the White House since Reagan. And I doubt the Saudis were exactly thrilled with that.

I don't disagree, but taking money from lobbyists and then saying that they didn't influence your judgment....
Well it doesn't wash with me.

How much of US military support went in the front door of the Saudi royal family, and then out the back door to terrorists?

IT IS A VERIFIABLE FACT that the USA, along with Canada and Mexico has enough oil to allow us to "Just say no" to anyone who isn't 100% with us.

All it would cost is a bit of money. I would pay that, long before I would AIG bailouts...

221 Noam Sayin'  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:01:20am

re: #207 Paul Sorene

Are you going to spam your blog with every post?

222 Bookworm  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:01:32am

I wonder if the John Adams example doesn't actually make the point. Aside from the fact that John Adams was feeling his way at that time, and that men in that era, rather Japan-like, routinely made reverences to those to whom they were showing respect, the fact is that John Adams had spent his entire life time under a King of England. Despite being a revolutionary, there was in him a deep instinct to bow to the king, regardless of the dramatic break the Americans had made.

As for Obama, while we Americans don't ordinarily bow to people, even those we respect, Obama spent many years in a culture that did routinely make reverence to imams -- and he suddenly found himself before the imam of all imams. Considering that Obama's words and associations indicate that his emotional ties to America are tenuous, at best, is it any surprise that, just as with John Adams more than 200 years ago, so too did Obama revert to habit?

Additionally, I do not believe that, during John Adams tenure, America had yet created a standing policy that American presidents pay respect, not homage, not foreign rulers.

223 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:01:52am

re: #187 BLBfootballs

Rail is probably not the answer -- it's likely that a road-and-car-based transport system is more economically sensible for large and geographically diffuse countries like the US and Canada.

For freight, rail is excellent for long distances, and the US railroads are actually doing a great job. Intermodal containers and trailer-on-flatcar have made it efficient to use trucks for the short distances, where they're efficient, and rail for the long distances, where it is most efficient.
For passengers, rail is good for medium distances, like the Northeast Corridor, where the Acela does very well, despite track that lets it get up to high speed only on a short segment.

224 Kragar  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:02:26am

Obama refuses TARP Repayments

I must be naive. I really thought the administration would welcome the return of bank bailout money. Some $340 million in TARP cash flowed back this week from four small banks in Louisiana, New York, Indiana and California. This isn't much when we routinely talk in trillions, but clearly that money has not been wasted or otherwise sunk down Wall Street's black hole. So why no cheering as the cash comes back?

My answer: The government wants to control the banks, just as it now controls GM and Chrysler, and will surely control the health industry in the not-too-distant future. Keeping them TARP-stuffed is the key to control. And for this intensely political president, mere influence is not enough. The White House wants to tell 'em what to do. Control. Direct. Command.

It is not for nothing that rage has been turned on those wicked financiers. The banks are at the core of the administration's thrust: By managing the money, government can steer the whole economy even more firmly down the left fork in the road.

If the banks are forced to keep TARP cash -- which was often forced on them in the first place -- the Obama team can work its will on the financial system to unprecedented degree. That's what's happening right now.

225 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:02:33am

re: #194 Occasional Reader

Yet despite that, Bush - for all his shortcomings even in this area - was the best friend that Israel has had in the White House since Reagan. And I doubt the Saudis were exactly thrilled with that.

Up until Annapolis.

226 Nevergiveup  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:02:44am

Opening day question for the Baseball fans out there. I know it is somewhat traditional to open the season in Cincinnati ( why I don't know ). But in the old days wasn't it traditional to open it in DC when there was a team there? Well there is again?

227 J.S.  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:02:46am

There's a New York Times article, circa 1994 about President Clinton's "bow" (or was it?) to the Emperor of Japan...In the article, there's a note about protocol -- that American Presidents do not bow to anyone. (According to the article, a President also merely shakes the hand of British royalty...doesn't incline the head/bow -- btw, Obama did that gesture, when greeting British royalty...) Anyway, no MSM media outlet (inside the U.S.) has covered the "bowing" of Obama. (It's been picked up on the blogs, and some newspapers outside the U.S.). (Personally, I don't like seeing the U.S. President being obsequious to "royalty" -- I don't care who's doing it -- a Clinton, a GW Bush, an Obama -- it's all equally problematic...and not 'excused" by claims: " But he did it too!" -- or the tu quoque fallacy..)

228 Adrenalyn  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:02:54am

re: #220 Buck

I don't disagree, but taking money from lobbyists and then saying that they didn't influence your judgment....
Well it doesn't wash with me.

How much of US military support went in the front door of the Saudi royal family, and then out the back door to terrorists?

IT IS A VERIFIABLE FACT that the USA, along with Canada and Mexico has enough oil to allow us to "Just say no" to anyone who isn't 100% with us.

All it would cost is a bit of money. I would pay that, long before I would AIG bailouts...

not so fast, dear poster

you have "the democrats" standing in the way of that oil

tough to forget them NOT wanting to drill or use nuke energy

229 Mr. In get Mr. Out  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:02:58am

re: #187 BLBfootballs

Rail is probably not the answer -- it's likely that a road-and-car-based transport system is more economically sensible for large and geographically diffuse countries like the US and Canada.

Rail is needed n highly-populated areas in order to cut back on traffic gridlock and increasing lane widening. Yes, it wouldn't be smart to run empty cars to the middle of nowhere.

230 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:03:23am

re: #200 Afrocity

LOL. I have a Jewish first name. I am also craving hamentashen and I wonder where can i get one in Chicago. I know it coming on Passover so they are popular now.

Nope; you missed Purim last month.
No good baked goods over Passover. Like matzah?

231 Nevergiveup  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:03:30am

re: #225 Kosh's Shadow

Up until Annapolis.

Yeah, and Bush was the Boss, but I think that was mostly Condi's baby.

232 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:03:37am

re: #220 Buck

How much of US military support went in the front door of the Saudi royal family, and then out the back door to terrorists?

Um... direct military support? I'd say roughly 0%. Unless we've been suffering al-Qaeda F-15 Strike Eagle attacks that I haven't heard about.

233 CIA Reject  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:03:38am

re: #224 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

It's like dealing with the Corleone Family: once you accept a favor from them they own you.

234 MandyManners  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:03:39am

re: #86 limeshurbet

Can you disagree without condescending?

235 vr430  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:04:01am

re: #200 Afrocity

LOL. I have a Jewish first name. I am also craving hamentashen and I wonder where can i get one in Chicago. I know it coming on Passover so they are popular now.

Dude, you got our holidays mixed up. Passover = Matza, Purim = hamentashen, and it is long gone...

236 lawhawk  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:04:39am

re: #224 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Indeed. It's all about control. Some banks didn't want to participate in TARP in the first place, but were told to do so to destigmatize the new program. Now, they're being told they can't get out of the program, even though they're not at risk of defaulting or going under. There's a bunch of NJ banks that want to opt out, but the government is pushing to keep them in, if for no other reason than to maintain control over the financial markets in ways that would make the Founding Fathers spin furiously in their graves. It's unprecedented, and it's wrong.

237 Buck  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:04:52am

re: #209 Dr. Shalit

Charles -

Respectful disagreement - saw the clip elsewhere before logging in. Where we agree is the bottom line that the Saudi regime is one we would pay no attention to and laugh at were it not for our petroleum needs, without which they would be as poor as the sands of the Arabian Desert.

-S-

They can sell every drop they pump to China and many others.... they would still be rich selling a barrel of oil it costs them $5 to pump for $40 to the world. The only reason they WANT to sell it to the WEST is to have the influence.

238 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:04:58am

re: #207 Paul Sorene

Hey jerk, why are you pimping your blog here? Go get your own traffic.

239 dhg4  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:05:06am

re: #122 Shug

I hope we get the chance to find out

I kind of doubt that, but according to Jennifer Rubin, he might be considering a run for governor. Given Paterson's problems, that actually might be doable.

240 Kragar  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:05:14am

re: #233 CIA Reject

It's like dealing with the Corleone Family: once you accept a favor from them they own you.

Until you excuse yourself to go to the restroom to grab a package

241 Buck  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:05:32am

re: #228 Adrenalyn

Of course, that is my point.

242 Afrocity  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:05:36am

re: #204 Occasional Reader

No, she's a wannabe Irish, she's made that clear before!

:P

"Haven't you heard of Black Irish"

-Bernic Mack as Bosley in Charlie's Angels- Full Throttle"

243 CIA Reject  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:05:59am

re: #240 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Until you excuse yourself to go to the restroom to grab a package

LOL!

244 iurockhead  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:06:05am

John Adams was not the head of state when he bowed to the English king. Big differrence between a president bowing, and a lesser official following protocol.

245 victor_yugo  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:06:05am

re: #235 vr430

Dude, you got our holidays mixed up. Passover = Matza, Purim = hamentashen, and it is long gone...

That's "Miss Dude" to you, and don't forget it!

246 lawhawk  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:06:20am

re: #227 J.S.

You're referring to this. At the time, the Times didn't like Clinton's movement towards a bow. Now, the Times has no problem with a full-on bow by Obama to the Saudi king.

247 laZardo  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:06:34am

Hmm. I notice I'm still on Goddessoftheclassroom's prayer list.

It's 1 AM and I can't sleep. How are you all this fine Tuesday morning?

248 albusteve  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:06:40am

re: #240 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Until you excuse yourself to go to the restroom to grab a package

the first pink mist

249 Mr. In get Mr. Out  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:07:13am

re: #214 Honorary Yooper

We do have a very viable rail transporation system in America. It's a myth that we do not have any what-so-ever. A large percentage of freight is transported by rail rather than by air or truck. Most containers that go to the coasts, for example, wind up on huge trains that take dozens of these containers (usually double-stacked) inland. What we do not have is a really viable passenger rail network outside of the Northeast (Bos-Wash). There are several reasons for this, and none of which will be resolved anytime soon. One of the major reasons has to do with distances. Unlike densely populated Europe, we have huge distances between cities. As stated before, we also carry far more feight by rail that Europe. US railroads carry four times as much freight as EU railroads.

I'm well award of the freight system and the Northeast corridor. I was talking more of passenger rail. For certain areas, like California, it would be sensible to have a good passenger rail network. Part of the problem lays in updating the grade of the rails to carry passengers, or having exclusive tracks for passengers to avoid freight and passenger confrontation. In highly-congested and populated areas, passenger rail could work well for the populace.

250 Russkilitlover  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:07:18am

Nobody is even talking about the REAL affront. In that photo of Obama bowing, his ass is pointed right at the camera; in other words, Kiss My Ass America.
////////////conservative equivalent of moonbat.

251 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:07:33am

re: #242 Afrocity

"Haven't you heard of Black Irish"

-Bernic Mack as Bosley in Charlie's Angels- Full Throttle"

And you're jonesin' for Irish cuisine no less.... gah!

252 Afrocity  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:07:45am

re: #235 vr430

Dude, you got our holidays mixed up. Passover = Matza, Purim = hamentashen, and it is long gone...

So why did they have hamentashen at the two sedars I attended?

253 ladycatnip  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:07:47am

#202 Charles

A bow is a bow is a bow. We can split hairs and say he bowed to receive a medal if you like -- but I see no difference whatsoever between that kind of bow and what Barack Obama did.

Personally, I would rather Bush had done a mini plie to receive his medal.

254 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:07:48am

re: #222 Bookworm

I wonder if the John Adams example doesn't actually make the point. Aside from the fact that John Adams was feeling his way at that time, and that men in that era, rather Japan-like, routinely made reverences to those to whom they were showing respect, the fact is that John Adams had spent his entire life time under a King of England. Despite being a revolutionary, there was in him a deep instinct to bow to the king, regardless of the dramatic break the Americans had made.

As for Obama, while we Americans don't ordinarily bow to people, even those we respect, Obama spent many years in a culture that did routinely make reverence to imams -- and he suddenly found himself before the imam of all imams. Considering that Obama's words and associations indicate that his emotional ties to America are tenuous, at best, is it any surprise that, just as with John Adams more than 200 years ago, so too did Obama revert to habit?

Additionally, I do not believe that, during John Adams tenure, America had yet created a standing policy that American presidents pay respect, not homage, not foreign rulers.

Your explanation is bullshit. Obama is not a Muslim, so, what has Imans and other stuff have to do with your point?

255 dhg4  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:08:01am

re: #157 Opinionated

America will never realize what it lost - particularly in this treacherous time both domestic and internationally- that Giuliani in not President.

Giuliani- the one American politician to ever publicly tell the Saudis to stick their crap back up their ass.

As much as I agree with this sentiment; the Presidency is something that Giuliani lost. (Though I have no idea how he'd have performed against Obama.) I really don't think he had his heart in it; else he would have almost certainly lapped the Republican field. It was said about McCain, that he couldn't tell his advisors why he wanted to be President. That applied every bit as much to Giuliani.

256 vr430  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:08:12am

re: #245 victor_yugo

That's "Miss Dude" to you, and don't forget it!

Hey, no offense. We are all dudes here!

257 Capitalist Tool  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:08:13am

re: #234 MandyManners

Can you disagree without condescending?

Got your tongue in your cheek already, eh?

258 Leonidas Hoplite  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:08:14am

re: #244 iurockhead

John Adams was not the head of state when he bowed to the English king. Big differrence between a president bowing, and a lesser official following protocol.

Fair point, but if jet travel were available back then and GW paid a call on the most important trading partner of the young country, do you think he would have shown George III the traditional signs of respect?

259 J.S.  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:08:16am

re: #246 lawhawk

There's also a Wiki article (soon to be deleted?) here...

260 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:08:29am

re: #236 lawhawk

It's unprecedented, and it's wrong.

Obama Derangement Syndrome!

/

261 brookly red  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:09:00am

re: #252 Afrocity

So why did they have hamentashen at the two sedars I attended?

/It's pretty hard to get rid of month old hamentashen :)

262 albusteve  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:09:00am

nit picking over a bow is not the point...the infatuation with exotic barbarians is sickening and it's multi generational as Charles pointed out....it's all about wealth and power...there isn't a scrap of decency to be found in the unholy alliance with these killers

263 BLBfootballs  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:09:10am

That's a good point -- as you and Yooper point out, we do have a very impressive freight/cargo rail transport system. (Something I should have remembered since I have a copy of Railway Age magazine right next to me!) Nothing beats rail's efficiency at moving huge masses of material over long distances.

Lots of people use Amtrak in America....but nowhere near enough to make it profitable. Even in the northeast, I believe the Acela Express has basically been a money pit for Amtrak. Only the standard Boston-DC standard service has been profitable. The Acela Express was a terrible misinvestment/overinvestment from a financial perspective. Amtrak will never recoup the cost.

We should be very cautious about hoping for rail or other forms of mass-transportation to become the personal-transport standard in the US. One of the reasons we have (...or...had) the world's most diverse economy is because we have the infrastructure that enables individuals to rapidly move precisely from place to place when they want to.

264 BLBfootballs  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:09:40am

#263 was

re: #249 Mr. In get Mr. Out

265 Wendya  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:10:07am

re: #219 lawhawk

You aren't alienating the Saudis by the President choosing not to bow to the King of Saudi Arabia. Apparently the Office of Protocol found it acceptable to bow to the King, just as it was acceptable to give Queen Elizabeth II an iPod stuffed with Obama memorabilia/mix tape or PM Brown got the DVD collection from Blockbuster.

No one said it was done from fear of alienating the Saudis. What I was pointing out is that it's a hell of a lot easier to say "screw you" when you're a mayor vs a president. They need us and we need them.

266 The Monster  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:10:09am
A bow is a bow is a bow. We can split hairs and say he bowed to receive a medal if you like -- but I see no difference whatsoever between that kind of bow and what Barack Obama did.

When an Olympic athlete lowers his head to receive his medal, he is not "bowing" in the way the subject of a monarch bows to acknowledge the latter's authority over him. Certainly one can object to the propriety of our President receiving any award from another country; the Constitution provides that no government official can accept any gift from a foreign government without approval of Congress. I presume then that President Bush received that approval, or some Representative or other would have used it as a pretext for impeachment.

Obama bent from the waist and abased himself. It was embarrassing. Saying "Well, Bush did it too!", even if it were true, would make it no less embarrassing

267 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:10:38am

re: #229 Mr. In get Mr. Out

Rail is needed n highly-populated areas in order to cut back on traffic gridlock and increasing lane widening. Yes, it wouldn't be smart to run empty cars to the middle of nowhere.

You mean something like commuter rail and subways?
They work well in densely populated areas, but the US has been spreading out.
I live 40 miles outside Boston, and if I work in Boston (5-6 years out of almost 30), the commuter train would be great if they'd run some more trains later in the evening.
But it would cost a huge amount to have a rail transit system that goes between all the suburbs where the business parks are and where most of the people who work in them live. And it might not be more efficient at all, especially after paying for the massive construction costs. Diesel trains would not be efficient; it would have to be smaller electric trains like LRV's (streetcars) and subway trains. But rail lines are very expensive to build.
Europe has more business in the cities; in the US it gets built in outlying areas to save on rent and make transportation by car easier.
But I wish I could commute by train. I'd get extra sleep that way.
As long as I don't get off at Willoughby.

268 avanti  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:10:40am

Glenn Beck will be discussing FEMA concentration camps this evening. This could be the new nirther story. Here's a link about this far out idea, complete with black helicopters. Let's hope Beck is fair and balanced on this one.

FEMA.

269 VioletTiger  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:10:53am

I see the sleeper trolls are out today.

270 jill e  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:11:34am

This difference with Obama is his support of the Saudi initiative, which would end Israel as a Jewish state.
Read more.

271 albusteve  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:11:39am

re: #265 Wendya

No one said it was done from fear of alienating the Saudis. What I was pointing out is that it's a hell of a lot easier to say "screw you" when you're a mayor vs a president. They need us and we need them.

no we don't...and you know it

272 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:11:56am
273 Afrocity  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:11:56am

re: #269 VioletTiger

I see the sleeper trolls are out today.

what is a sleeper troll? Also what is a moby?
Some lizards have used the terms calling someone a Moby.

274 yma o hyd  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:11:57am

re: #269 VioletTiger

I see the sleeper trolls are out today.

Nowhere else to go, now that the lounge is gone ...

275 Daryl Herbert  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:12:13am

Here’s an open thread for Monday morning, for everyone who wants to yell at me some more for pointing out that by bowing to King Abdullah, Barack Obama was simply following the well-documented, well-known tradition of US Presidents to pander to the Saudis.

Except you didn't say "pander." You said "bow." You claimed that Bush "bowed" to the Saudi monarchy, which is not true. He lowered his head so that the Saudi could put a medal around him. That's not the same thing as bowing.

If you say something false, even if it's a well-intentioned accident, you should fess up to it and move on.

Our president literally bowing to a foreign monarch is a big deal. It doesn't mean he's a Muslim or a Manchurian Candidate or a traitor. But it does mean he's an idiot, a boob, and a bumbler, far worse than George W. Bush.

276 Big Steve  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:12:21am

re: #266 The Monster

When an Olympic athlete lowers his head to receive his medal, he is not "bowing" in the way the subject of a monarch bows to acknowledge the latter's authority over him. Certainly one can object to the propriety of our President receiving any award from another country; the Constitution provides that no government official can accept any gift from a foreign government without approval of Congress. I presume then that President Bush received that approval, or some Representative or other would have used it as a pretext for impeachment.

Obama bent from the waist and abased himself. It was embarrassing. Saying "Well, Bush did it too!", even if it were true, would make it no less embarrassing

Medal? What F'-in medal would the President of the United States need to get from the Saudi's. Bow....receiving a bullshit medal.....no difference....it is the politics of suck-up.

277 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:12:29am

re: #229 Mr. In get Mr. Out

Rail is needed in highly-populated areas in order to cut back on traffic gridlock and increasing lane widening. Yes, it wouldn't be smart to run empty cars to the middle of nowhere.

There actually is a lot of rail in highly populated areas. However, the main problem with commuter rail is that it does not always go where the commuter needs it to go due to housing and job patterns. I'll use Chicagoland as an example.

In Chicagoland, we have an excellent commuter rail system (Metra) if you want to go into or out of the Loop. It sucks if you do not want to go into or out of the Loop. Many suburbanites do not work in the Loop, and live and work in vastly different areas of the region. Thus, while commuter rail is part of the solution, it is not the entire solution.

We also need to add lanes in targeted areas. A good example is I-355 between 75th Street and I-88 in DuPage County. Previously, it would backup between these two areas due to the volume of traffic that would get on at 75th Street and 63rd Street. By adding a lane through that stretch only, the delay was removed. Why was there a delay? The road could handle the traffic without the extra lane, but the drivers were, as usual, clueless about merging. Most traffic delays not caused by accidents are due to areas were people need to merge. Auxiliary lanes like the above aid people in merging.

278 Buck  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:12:38am

re: #232 Occasional Reader

Um... direct military support? I'd say roughly 0%. Unless we've been suffering al-Qaeda F-15 Strike Eagle attacks that I haven't heard about.

If you think that F-15s are our only export to the magic Kingdom, then you are delusional.

I will give you one example right now...
Training! You want to guess how many Saudi military are (not so) secretly aligned with AQ?

Pop quiz hot shot:
At the same time that US forces were station in the Saudi Desert... defending the kingdom from attack, and training Saudi forces (a policy that I place as much more grievous than bowing)... A great majority of attacks AGAINST US INTERESTS were made by what nationality?

Iranian? Nope... Palestinian? Nope... North Korean? BIG NO!

SAUDI? Big Yes...

279 albusteve  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:12:58am

re: #272 Iron Fist

well said and yes "they' are on the otherside

280 Occasional Reader  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:13:11am

re: #268 avanti

Glenn Beck will be discussing FEMA concentration camps this evening.

Ohferpetessake.

Beck should be consigned to late night radio, co-hosting with Art Bell.

281 lawhawk  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:13:49am

re: #263 BLBfootballs

Acela was a disaster because it was ill conceived and was poorly implemented. The trains can never achieve their full rated speed because the train line can't handle the speeds (whether because the overhead lines are incapable of dealing with the speed, or the banking on the trainsets is insufficient b/c of design defect, or the track spacing prevents the trains from banking without hitting oncoming traffic, etc.). The cost for an Acela ticket on the NE corridor is double the regular service, and you get only a marginal boost in time saving. Had Acela been properly implemented, boosting the speed throughout the entire NE corridor to 130 mph, they could have made Acela far more attractive to the intracity business class than flying since you could go between Union Station in DC to Penn Station or Grand Central in NYC in less time than flying. Since the trains can't go that fast, they're only an improvement over driving, and with the schedule, more people are going to drive than use the train.

282 itellu3times  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:14:00am

Don't care about John Adams, want to keep the outrage fresh.

283 vr430  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:14:21am

re: #252 Afrocity

So why did they have hamentashen at the two sedars I attended?

Not possible. Bread must be unleaven during Passover, hence Matza. Them must be some very unobservant hebrews!

284 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:14:23am

re: #268 avanti

Glenn Beck will be discussing FEMA concentration camps this evening. This could be the new nirther story. Here's a link about this far out idea, complete with black helicopters. Let's hope Beck is fair and balanced on this one.

FEMA.

I suspect you're not over the effects of drinking this weekend at the casinos. Don't post this shit.

285 albusteve  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:14:40am

we're all doomed...DOOMED!

286 limeshurbet  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:14:48am

#202: That's the disingenuous BS I am talking about.

LEANING DOWN to receive a medal and BOWING as President of the United States aren't the same thing.

And you know it, Charles. YOU KNOW IT.

And instead of being intellectually honest about it, you make a snarky comment about being able to live with my disappointment.

And what's worse, I AGREE WITH YOU about the Saudis.

Maybe its my own damned fault for believing that, whatever your opinion on something, you would always be fair to people that had a respectful disagreement.

287 jcm  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:14:49am

Obama in Turkey Says U.S. Not at War with Islam

"I know that the trust that binds us has been strained, and I know that strain is shared in many places where the Muslim faith is practiced. Let me say this as clearly as I can: The United States is not at war with Islam," the president said.

[snip]

Obama, who is left-handed, held notes in his right hand as he signed the guest book.

He wrote:

"I am honored to pay tribute to Mustafa Kamal Ataturk, a man who vision, tenacity and courage put the Republic of Turkey on the path of democracy and whose legacy continues to inspire generations around the world. As the 44th president of the United States of America, I look forward to strengthening relations between the U.S. and Turkey and supporting Ataturk's vision of Turkey as a…prosperous democracy giving hope to its people and providing 'peace at home, peace in the world.'"

He needs crib notes to write a tribute to Ataturk about himself.

288 A Man for all Seasons  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:15:19am

re: #247 laZardo

Hmm. I notice I'm still on Goddessoftheclassroom's prayer list.

It's 1 AM and I can't sleep. How are you all this fine Tuesday morning?


Long time no see Lazard..How is school?

289 Bloodnok  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:15:27am

re: #254 Walter L. Newton

Your explanation is bullshit. Obama is not a Muslim, so, what has Imans and other stuff have to do with your point?

You are correct, Walter. This is one of the reasons I am wary of saying that any bow Obama did was "worse". For one to believe there was different intent behind what Bush did and what Obama did is to go into "secret Muslim" territory, and that is not a place I can go.

290 laZardo  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:15:39am

Hrm. Guess I'll sneak back to bed then.

If you see GotC around, tell her to remove me from the list.

Cheers.

291 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:15:47am

re: #273 Afrocity

what is a sleeper troll? Also what is a moby?
Some lizards have used the terms calling someone a Moby.

See the LGF Dictionary, top-left of each page, on the Tools/Info drop-down menu

292 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:16:07am

re: #270 jill e

This difference with Obama is his support of the Saudi initiative, which would end Israel as a Jewish state.
Read more.

Yes. The Jerusalem Post also said that the White House supported it in a statement, that I have yet to find.
All the articles say the Saudi plan calls for "a just solution to the refugee problem", but they've never read it or the UN resolution it refers to.
The UN resolution requires all refugees who want to go back to their homes as of 1947 to be able to do so.
We can be quite sure the Arabs will make sure the Arab refugees have nowhere else to go than Israel, whether they really want to go there or not.

293 laZardo  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:16:26am

re: #288 HoosierHoops

Guess I could stay up for a bit.

Finals are approaching, same ol' projects need to be submitted before the end of the week. And if you still remember, I do not regret what I said in my fateful #429.

294 yma o hyd  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:16:28am

re: #270 jill e

This difference with Obama is his support of the Saudi initiative, which would end Israel as a Jewish state.
Read more.

From that link:
'One is left to wonder if the President is aware of the full implications of the Saudi-Arab peace initiative, or how he's put Israel behind the eight ball by praising King Abdullah's efforts to put it front and center in future peace negotiations.

Since Obama previously was quoted as saying that "the Israelis would be crazy not to support this initiative," it is past time for him to explain how he reconciles the real Saudi plan with Israel's real security challenges.'

Nothing will be forthcoming from PB0.
He's swallowed the ayrab propaganda and can't or won't see that its about making the area 'judenrein', not about just a tiny little state for the poor palis ...

295 Afrocity  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:16:31am

re: #283 vr430

Not possible. Bread must be unleaven during Passover, hence Matza. Them must be some very unobservant hebrews!

In both cases it was an interfaith couple (may or may not mean anything). I still like the hamentashen, so I am happy they introduced me to it. Once I had apricot and the other time it was prune.

296 Nevergiveup  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:16:37am

re: #242 Afrocity

"Haven't you heard of Black Irish"

-Bernic Mack as Bosley in Charlie's Angels- Full Throttle"

Or the Commander in the flight of the avenger

297 Laugh a Lot  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:16:44am

re: #198 Dark_Falcon

Keep insulting like this and I see a ban stick in your future.

GAZE

I'm not insulting anyone (well, perhaps I insulted some leftists by suggesting they can't read, but if they could read, well, they wouldn't be leftists, now would they?). I said I agree with the overall discussion about US dependence on Saudi oil and the obsequious behavior of our presidents toward that horrible little country and its faux royal family for decades now. But I found the photo to be a stretch when considered in its full video context. I realize others see both "bows" as the same. I do not. That's all. Where's the insult? In mere disagreement?

298 Afrocity  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:17:02am

re: #284 Walter L. Newton

I suspect you're not over the effects of drinking this weekend at the casinos. Don't post this shit.

(that was funny)

299 LionOfDixon  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:17:13am

Has anyone seen a real copy of the Saudi Prince's birth certificate?

300 debutaunt  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:17:14am

re: #136 Occasional Reader

And don't forget the multi-trillion dollar deficit spending.

He already spent most of the GDP from last year. The year is young.

301 A Man for all Seasons  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:17:45am

re: #293 laZardo

Guess I could stay up for a bit.

Finals are approaching, same ol' projects need to be submitted before the end of the week. And if you still remember, I do not regret what I said in my fateful #429.


Good Luck in school and on your journey in life
Kind regards

302 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:18:06am

re: #281 lawhawk

Acela was a disaster because it was ill conceived and was poorly implemented. The trains can never achieve their full rated speed because the train line can't handle the speeds (whether because the overhead lines are incapable of dealing with the speed, or the banking on the trainsets is insufficient b/c of design defect, or the track spacing prevents the trains from banking without hitting oncoming traffic, etc.). The cost for an Acela ticket on the NE corridor is double the regular service, and you get only a marginal boost in time saving. Had Acela been properly implemented, boosting the speed throughout the entire NE corridor to 130 mph, they could have made Acela far more attractive to the intracity business class than flying since you could go between Union Station in DC to Penn Station or Grand Central in NYC in less time than flying. Since the trains can't go that fast, they're only an improvement over driving, and with the schedule, more people are going to drive than use the train.

They do keep upgrading the track, but you are right that the price difference isn't worth it. But they schedule the Acela's when you want to go, and the regionals at other times.
However, the Acelas are packed between Boston and NYC; that's the part of the trip I travel, so I don't know the rest. I think if they had more capacity they'd still sell out. From that viewpoint, they're quite successful.

303 LC LaWedgie  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:18:54am
...it’s going to continue until we wean ourselves off their oil.

Ain't gonna happen, and it ain't their oil that is the problem.

As soon as the West "weans" itself, we'll find that **poof** they've invested everything in alternative energy projects.

304 Mr. In get Mr. Out  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:18:57am

re: #267 Kosh's Shadow

You mean something like commuter rail and subways?
They work well in densely populated areas, but the US has been spreading out.
I live 40 miles outside Boston, and if I work in Boston (5-6 years out of almost 30), the commuter train would be great if they'd run some more trains later in the evening.
But it would cost a huge amount to have a rail transit system that goes between all the suburbs where the business parks are and where most of the people who work in them live. And it might not be more efficient at all, especially after paying for the massive construction costs. Diesel trains would not be efficient; it would have to be smaller electric trains like LRV's (streetcars) and subway trains. But rail lines are very expensive to build.
Europe has more business in the cities; in the US it gets built in outlying areas to save on rent and make transportation by car easier.
But I wish I could commute by train. I'd get extra sleep that way.
As long as I don't get off at Willoughby.

Yeah, there are some problems with passenger rail transportation these days. After the interstate system and highways were built, many rail lines ceased running regularly and were sold (1980s - Rails-to-Trails). The passenger network has become so dilapidated, it may be impossible to bring back in a useful form.

As you noted, right now, convenience is only available to those that have schedules corresponding with the trains or live close to a station.

305 Opinionated  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:19:17am

re: #255 dhg4

As much as I agree with this sentiment; the Presidency is something that Giuliani lost. (Though I have no idea how he'd have performed against Obama.) I really don't think he had his heart in it; else he would have almost certainly lapped the Republican field. It was said about McCain, that he couldn't tell his advisors why he wanted to be President. That applied every bit as much to Giuliani.

Long before he announced he was running, many suggested that he had no chance considering the conservative groups that predominate the early process.

He ran but I think he too deep inside didn't believe he could overcome that obstacle: which is why he kept pulling back to hopefully fight in Florida. By then it was too late for him to be taken seriously as a contender.

If the primaries were to start in the North East or West, I believe he would have easily won. Also if he had taken the only course really available to him - he should have run Third Party.

I doubt he will, but I would be thrilled if he ran Third Party in 2012.

306 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:19:54am

re: #286 limeshurbet

#202: That's the disingenuous BS I am talking about.

LEANING DOWN to receive a medal and BOWING as President of the United States aren't the same thing.

And you know it, Charles. YOU KNOW IT.

And instead of being intellectually honest about it, you make a snarky comment about being able to live with my disappointment.

And what's worse, I AGREE WITH YOU about the Saudis.

Maybe its my own damned fault for believing that, whatever your opinion on something, you would always be fair to people that had a respectful disagreement.

Come on, let all that anger out. Direct it at me if you like. I'm a bad bad person for not toeing the line, I know.

307 ladycatnip  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:20:00am

#287 jcm

He needs crib notes to write a tribute to Ataturk about himself.

Where's Teleprompter?

308 Randall Gross  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:20:14am

Not to diminish Charle's point, but there are about 34 recognized royal families in the world, and I'm thinking it's established protocol to bow to all of them when meeting them. I'm trying to find the established WH protocol, but keep getting lost in Emily Post etiquette links, it's maddening.

309 jcm  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:20:29am

re: #299 LionOfDixon

Has anyone seen a real copy of the Saudi Prince's birth certificate?

Are you saying he might have been born in DeBeque?

/;-P

310 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:20:53am

re: #287 jcm

Obama in Turkey Says U.S. Not at War with Islam


He needs crib notes to write a tribute to Ataturk about himself.

I wonder what Erdogan was muttering under his breath as Obambi was writing that about Ataturk.

311 Fat Jolly Penguin  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:20:55am

re: #273 Afrocity

what is a sleeper troll? Also what is a moby?
Some lizards have used the terms calling someone a Moby.

Sleeper trolls make an account for themselves, but don't log in and start trolling for quite a while. As for mobys, I'll point you to the appropriate entry in the LGF Dictionary.

312 jill e  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:20:56am

More from Obama's speech to the Parliament of Turkey:

"An enduring commitment to the rule of law is the only way to achieve the security that comes from justice for all people. Robust minority rights let societies benefit from the full measure of contributions from all citizens. I say this as the President of a country that not too long ago made it hard for someone who looks like me to vote."

313 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:21:14am
314 limeshurbet  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:21:44am

#306 - And you know that isn't where I am coming from either.

315 Wendya  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:22:15am

re: #271 albusteve

no we don't...and you know it

Yes, we do.

What do you think would happen if Saudi Arabia went the way of Iran or Afghanistan?

316 Opinionated  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:22:34am

re: #308 Thanos

Not to diminish Charle's point, but there are about 34 recognized royal families in the world, and I'm thinking it's established protocol to bow to all of them when meeting them. I'm trying to find the established WH protocol, but keep getting lost in Emily Post etiquette links, it's maddening.

And if I ever see Obama bow to any other King, I will change my opinion of this particular bow.

317 deacon  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:22:41am
And another wake-up call for anyone who thinks American presidents shouldn’t bow to anyone: John Adams kowtowed before King George III.

This needs a correction. John Adams did not bow as a president. He bowed when he was a foreign minister appointed to the British.

318 JacksonTn  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:22:49am

re: #312 jill e

More from Obama's speech to the Parliament of Turkey:

"An enduring commitment to the rule of law is the only way to achieve the security that comes from justice for all people. Robust minority rights let societies benefit from the full measure of contributions from all citizens. I say this as the President of a country that not too long ago made it hard for someone who looks like me to vote."

That right there is the kind of crap that makes me not like him ... I guess Shelley loaned him even more of her chip off of her shoulders ... when will be go to another country and say that America is great ... when ...

319 Capitalist Tool  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:22:49am

re: #273 Afrocity

what is a sleeper troll? Also what is a moby?
Some lizards have used the terms calling someone a Moby.

Well, back in school, they called me Moby in the locker room... not sure about trolls.

320 horse  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:23:02am

Didn't realize the topic had continued onto a new thread. I see both sides of the argument here because there are two arguments, there is the physical bowing and the metaphoric bowing and behind kissing. Should American presidents physically bow when being introduced to royalty, probably not. Should American presidents metaphorically bow and kiss the behinds of foreign royalty who are the antithesis of what we stand for, definitely not.

I also believe my last post from the earlier thread is still applicable here:

To be clear, I do agree criticizing Obama's gesture while forgiving Bush's close relationship vis-a-vis the Sauds is overall hypocritical. I understand why Bush did what he did, and understand if Obama does the same, but I will still be critical of them both. I am rather surprised Obama is not charting a better course, and still do not understand why he would treat the Brits and Sauds so differently.
321 LionOfDixon  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:23:20am

re: #309 jcm

He don't look like no Ute to me.

322 itellu3times  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:24:10am

re: #312 jill e

More from Obama's speech to the Parliament of Turkey:

"An enduring commitment to the rule of law is the only way to achieve the security that comes from justice for all people. Robust minority rights let societies benefit from the full measure of contributions from all citizens. I say this as the President of a country that not too long ago made it hard for someone who looks like me to vote."

Shouldn't Obama have chosen some different topics to speak about? Especially not his own skin.

323 guitarguy  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:25:38am

OK.
Obama bowing to Saudi’s = Wrong.
‘W’ bowing – to receive a medal from Saudis = Wrong.
Why anyone would want a medal from the Saudi’s is beyond me.
Believe me, I would LOVE to finally see a world leader with a spine of steel stand up to the Saudi’s…..and others.

However……….

When Ted Kennedy was diagnosed with cancer months ago, any mention of Chappaquiddick was verboten at LGF.

Saudi’s = Fair game. (Agreed.)
Leave a woman to die and make every attempt to cover-up your involvement = Hands off. (…..scratches head…..)

324 Opinionated  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:26:16am

re: #312 jill e

More from Obama's speech to the Parliament of Turkey:

I heard it for several minutes and he was talking about providing healthcare- pretty much his domestic speech.

My impression was WTF.

325 LionOfDixon  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:26:42am

re: #322 itellu3times


When did this country make it hard for teleprompters to vote? I'm confused.

326 Opinionated  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:28:07am

re: #323 guitarguy

OK.
Obama bowing to Saudi’s = Wrong.
‘W’ bowing – to receive a medal from Saudis = Wrong.
Why anyone would want a medal from the Saudi’s is beyond me.
Believe me, I would LOVE to finally see a world leader with a spine of steel stand up to the Saudi’s…..and others.

However……….

When Ted Kennedy was diagnosed with cancer months ago, any mention of Chappaquiddick was verboten at LGF.

Saudi’s = Fair game. (Agreed.)
Leave a woman to die and make every attempt to cover-up your involvement = Hands off. (…..scratches head…..)

That belongs at nonsequiturs.com

If there isn't such a site, maybe there should be.

327 Wendya  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:28:36am

re: #308 Thanos

Not to diminish Charle's point, but there are about 34 recognized royal families in the world, and I'm thinking it's established protocol to bow to all of them when meeting them. I'm trying to find the established WH protocol, but keep getting lost in Emily Post etiquette links, it's maddening.

It is established protocol for an American President to greet an equal standing up straight with a handshake, where appropriate.

328 Mr. In get Mr. Out  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:28:54am

re: #277 Honorary Yooper

There actually is a lot of rail in highly populated areas. However, the main problem with commuter rail is that it does not always go where the commuter needs it to go due to housing and job patterns. I'll use Chicagoland as an example.

In Chicagoland, we have an excellent commuter rail system (Metra) if you want to go into or out of the Loop. It sucks if you do not want to go into or out of the Loop. Many suburbanites do not work in the Loop, and live and work in vastly different areas of the region. Thus, while commuter rail is part of the solution, it is not the entire solution.

We also need to add lanes in targeted areas. A good example is I-355 between 75th Street and I-88 in DuPage County. Previously, it would backup between these two areas due to the volume of traffic that would get on at 75th Street and 63rd Street. By adding a lane through that stretch only, the delay was removed. Why was there a delay? The road could handle the traffic without the extra lane, but the drivers were, as usual, clueless about merging. Most traffic delays not caused by accidents are due to areas were people need to merge. Auxiliary lanes like the above aid people in merging.

Chicago's rail is an excellent example of mass transit.

It'd be ideal to connect larger cities to cut down on short flights, such as in The Midwest Corridor. Trains will not be the answer in all areas, but they're part of the solution.

329 monkey den  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:28:58am

We don't tell at you...we respectfully disagree. Save the forked tongue for those much more deserving.

330 avanti  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:29:11am

re: #298 Afrocity

(that was funny)

We're your ears ringing this weekend ? I was discussing you with my friend Robyn after she pointed out a slot machine that hit right after she told me to try it. I then told her the red car story, kinda weird.

331 S'latch  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:29:19am

Nocht is your fairnes bot ane faiding flour, Nocht is your famous laud and hie honour Bot wind inflat in uther mennis eiris.

- Henryson, Robert

332 The Monster  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:29:26am

re: #289 Bloodnok

For one to believe there was different intent behind what Bush did and what Obama did is to go into "secret Muslim" territory, and that is not a place I can go.

Not at all. That Obama received a Muslim education in Indonesia is beyond dispute. Being indoctrinated at an early age that the King of Saudi Arabia holds a special place as the defender of the holy cities would be powerful programming to overcome.

Whether that makes him a Muslim or not is an entirely separate matter. By our standards, it does not; by the standards of Muslims, however, it apparently does. That he has proclaimed his faith in Jesus Christ afterwards makes him an "apostate Muslim", and we all know what the punishment for that is.

333 monkey den  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:29:36am

re: #329 monkey den

We don't YELL at you...we respectfully disagree. Save the forked tongue for those much more deserving.

correction

334 wrenchwench  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:30:16am

re: #297 Laugh a Lot

The word "disingenuous" is often (if not always) seen as a euphemism for "lying." Which is usually seen as an insult. I think it is disingenuous of you to claim ignorance of your insult.

335 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:30:22am

re: #323 guitarguy

OK.
Obama bowing to Saudi’s = Wrong.
‘W’ bowing – to receive a medal from Saudis = Wrong.
Why anyone would want a medal from the Saudi’s is beyond me.
Believe me, I would LOVE to finally see a world leader with a spine of steel stand up to the Saudi’s…..and others.

However……….

When Ted Kennedy was diagnosed with cancer months ago, any mention of Chappaquiddick was verboten at LGF.

Saudi’s = Fair game. (Agreed.)
Leave a woman to die and make every attempt to cover-up your involvement = Hands off. (…..scratches head…..)

Gee, I'm sorry you weren't allowed to spew venom at a man suffering from a stroke. Maybe you should find some other blog that will let you do that instead of whining about it to me, because that policy isn't going to change.

336 Randall Gross  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:31:32am

re: #316 Opinionated

And if I ever see Obama bow to any other King, I will change my opinion of this particular bow.

He "head bowed" to the Queen, but he didn't do the full waist bow, at least not on camera.

337 Clio  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:32:12am

John Adams was NOT PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES at the time of his audience with George III.

He was U.S. ambassador to Britain at the time, and the time was during the period of the Articles of Confederation -- that is before the adoption of the Constitution in 1787, when he became Vice President.

And it was in the 18th century when bowing was a standard social courtesy without political implications.

338 S'latch  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:32:38am

John Adams Derangement Syndrome?

339 Afrocity  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:33:10am

re: #330 avanti

We're your ears ringing this weekend ? I was discussing you with my friend Robyn after she pointed out a slot machine that hit right after she told me to try it. I then told her the red car story, kinda weird.


5 dreams came true this weekend.
How is that lady friend? ;-)

340 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:33:22am

re: #338 Lawrence Schmerel

John Adams Derangement Syndrome?

Why not? Hamilton, Jefferson, and Madison all had it.

341 Opinionated  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:33:41am

re: #336 Thanos

He "head bowed" to the Queen, but he didn't do the full waist bow, at least not on camera.

So what does that tell you?

342 bolivar  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:34:17am

re: #93 Afrocity

I want Palin to be my president someday. I know that is not a popular opinion here but I think she is brilliant.

Me too....but the media will never let it happen. They smelled blood and went in for the kill. The dhimmie machine did a real number on my favorite candidate and for that I will never forgive and forget. The more papers and rags that fail just vindicates my view. The lies and smears have begun to hurt them and payback is a bitch ain't it?

343 Jimmah  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:36:50am

re: #286 limeshurbet

LEANING DOWN to receive a medal and BOWING as President of the United States aren't the same thing.

But they both show deference towards and endorse the authority of the Saudi regime. That is the point.

344 Buck  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:37:00am

re: #286 limeshurbet

LEANING DOWN to receive a medal and BOWING as President of the United States aren't the same thing.

I would have no accepted the medal in the first place.


Please tell the King "no thank you"... And if could please return my call about Democracy reform and womens rights reform for the kingdom...

345 medaura18586  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:37:21am

re: #202 Charles

A bow is a bow is a bow. We can split hairs and say he bowed to receive a medal if you like -- but I see no difference whatsoever between that kind of bow and what Barack Obama did.

According to the quick 'n dirty online look-up:

bow: bend one's knee or body, or lower one's head; "He bowed before the King"; "She bowed her head in shame"

So I suppose you're technically correct. In my informal understanding of a "bow," lowering one's head was a necessary but not sufficient condition. I thought the gesture needed to be a gratuitous lowering of oneself to signal deference to the monarch. But it seems the distinction was just in my head, and a bow is a bow is a bow, as you put it.

I agree that the hair-splitting is useless. And I'm not a fan of making excuses for Bush. Speaking of whom, why don't we discuss the bailout! I'd like to see whether those who screech about Obama nationalizing the finance and auto industry will try to justify Bush's efforts in that same direction.

346 jorline  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:37:25am

I don't know how long we've been bowing, but we have been bending over for quite some time.

347 Zimriel  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:37:46am

re: #255 dhg4

As much as I agree with this sentiment; the Presidency is something that Giuliani lost. (Though I have no idea how he'd have performed against Obama.) I really don't think he had his heart in it; else he would have almost certainly lapped the Republican field. It was said about McCain, that he couldn't tell his advisors why he wanted to be President. That applied every bit as much to Giuliani.

I've said this on numerous occasions, and I always earn a few downdings for it, so I'll just gather in some more...

Giuliani, more so than McCain, doesn't understand conservatism outside the Northeast, and he doesn't want to understand it. His conservatism is fiscal and authoritarian. There's a place for both in American politics, and I can respect that, but those alone are a loser elsewhere - and, although no-one seems to want to admit it, it's not much of an winner in the Northeast either.

His attitude to social conservatives (I am one) is: vote for me, or else sit at home and let the Democrat win; I'd be fine with either one, because I don't care what you think. "I don't pander", he tells himself; and that absolves him of any effort to understand the philosophical underpinnings of (for instance) resistance to Roe v Wade and to a federal licence to bear arms.

348 Gus  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:38:14am

Someone mentioned a Wiki entry for this entitled: Media coverage of US President Obama's Bowing to King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia. There's a link to a recent article in World Net Nut Daily dated April 2, 2009. In that article they quote Jamie Glazov who comments on the bowing:

And people don't know what's going on here? Are we kidding? This is simply the continuation of fellow traveling.

Suddenly it appears that this event has taken on a life of its own. From the bowing now we have people claiming that "Obama is a fellow traveller with the Saudis." Going further on this angle reveals that they believe that the bow is an indication of Obama being "united" not only with Saudis but with Al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations.

I'm sure this will only feed into the "Obama's a muslim" conspiracy theory. Other conspiracy theories are sure to follow.

349 avanti  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:38:44am

re: #339 Afrocity

5 dreams came true this weekend.
How is that lady friend? ;-)

She's fine, we've been friends for 15 years. She loves to gamble, and stays up all night, and has a knack for picking slot machines for me, not bad at keno picks either.

350 Opinionated  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:39:29am

re: #347 Zimriel

Simple caraciture and not at all true.

351 Afrocity  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:39:41am

Avanti, I mean your OTHER lady friend. The one under your eyes but you cant see.

352 Opinionated  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:40:34am

re: #350 Opinionated

Caricature

353 Zimriel  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:41:31am

re: #350 Opinionated

Simple caraciture and not at all true.

That was at least an assertion and not a simple downding.

The next stage for our Rudy fans should be to show where my assertions are wrong. Or, you can just get mad and hit the minus.

354 Randall Gross  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:41:40am

It tells me that when he met the queen it was informal setting, when he met the king it was in formal, state setting. e.g. note the difference between a formal state visit here.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

355 realwest  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:42:41am

re: #214 Honorary Yooper
Hi HY! I agree with your analysis of railroads in this country, but the problem BEGINS with getting whatever you're shipping to the railhead, then picking it up at the train station to deliver it where it's needed.
NYC, for example, in spite of some genuine frustration with the MTA, has subways and buses that make it possible - with a map, compass and a whole lotta money - to get from point A to Point Z.
But that doesn't put food in the supermarkets, drugs in the drugstores, etc. etc.
America - despite the example of the French (who receive, iirc, 75% of their electrical power needs from nuclear reactors) is simply stymied by the Enviornmentalists and their political allies from using the ONE currently VIABLE alternative to fossil fuels.
And while electric powered vehicles seem to be making some headway (iirc Tesla has a vehicle that will now carry 5 adults a distance of 300 miles before recharging) they still need a source of electricity.
I never thought I'd say this, but I do think we should follow the example set by the French and get nuclear reactors on-line as soon as possible.
Someday Solar or Wind or something no one has thought of yet will be able to replace those fossil fuels, but until they do we are stuck with them.

356 limeshurbet  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:42:58am

When I say Charles is being "disingenuous" I mean to say that, while I agree with his larger point, how he is presenting his argument is "disingenuous" - in that he knows the two aren't the same thing in the far recesses of his mind, he is simply choosing to ignore that fact because it doesn't conform to the "narrative" he is presenting in support of his overall "this is all just mindless Obama bashing" comments.

Which makes someone I once thought of as beyond reproach in that area a little disappointing today. Especially when I tend to agree that all this bowing nonsense is exactly that - nonsense - and so very small in comparison to all the REAL problems Obama is causing.

357 avanti  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:44:24am

re: #351 Afrocity

Avanti, I mean your OTHER lady friend. The one under your eyes but you cant see.

Is is another dream or are we friends now ?

358 Right mind left  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:44:32am

re: #202 Charles

A bow is a bow is a bow. We can split hairs and say he bowed to receive a medal if you like -- but I see no difference whatsoever between that kind of bow and what Barack Obama did.

While I agree, there are some nuances that I believe are substantive in this debate. Not worthy of impeachment, but certainly an indicator of intent on Obama's part. This also is not entirely to defend Bush, just to provide the perspective of fact and circumstance. I truly believe Obama's actions are more contemptible, in context (post 9-11, Bush didn't run to visit him early or often, etc.)

Here is the clip of Obama, both with the Queen and then with the King...there is a huge difference in his displays to them, don't you agree?

Youtube Video

Now the scene with Bush and his receiving of that medal, in context, was in 2008, at the height of the oil shortage, it was his FIRST visit to Saudi Arabia (never before - I think that is saying something, albeit small, still it is much different than the Obama deep waisted bow IMHO) and he got the medal just like every other dignitary that goes before the king:

www.saudiembassy.net/Focus/IN-FOCUS-2008/08-FOCUS-01-15.pdf

JANUARY 15, 2008
FOREIGN POLICY
President Bush pays a state visit to Saudi Arabia
President George W. Bush arrived in Riyadh January 14 for a three ­day official
visit to Saudi Arabia. It is President Bush’s first state visit to Saudi Arabia, and
the first by a current US president since Bill Clinton met with King Fahd in 1994.
After a red­carpet welcome at the airport from King Abdullah bin Abdulaziz, the
King and President Bush held official talks at the royal palace in Riyadh. They
discussed regional issues, in particular the Middle East peace process and
international efforts to restart talks in light of the November 2007 peace
conference in Annapolis. They also reviewed the situation in Iraq, ways to boost
bilateral cooperation, and international counterterrorism efforts. King Abdullah
reiterated his call for the establishment of an international counterterrorism
center under the aegis of the United Nations.
King Abdullah hosted two dinners for President Bush. During the first, on January
14, the King awarded President Bush the King Abdulaziz Medal, an honor that is
given to world leaders and heads of state. On January 15, the King also hosted
the president at the royal ranch in Jenadriyah, where the two leaders continued
their official talks.

359 Opinionated  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:44:33am

re: #354 Thanos

It tells me that when he met the queen it was informal setting, when he met the king it was in formal, state setting. e.g. note the difference between a formal state visit here.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Actually it was exactly the opposite.

He met the Queen at an audience.

He met the King at a meet and greet with other heads of government - none of whom were seen to bow.

360 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:45:08am

A thought experiment for those who are frothing at me for pointing out the essential hypocrisy of bashing Obama while excusing Bush...

Would you have been:

A) More upset, or

B) Less upset

...if Obama had done exactly what Bush did, and bowed his head to receive a medal from King Abdullah?

If you're honest, you'll admit that you'd be screaming about that even more.

361 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:47:07am

re: #356 limeshurbet

When I say Charles is being "disingenuous" I mean to say that, while I agree with his larger point, how he is presenting his argument is "disingenuous" - in that he knows the two aren't the same thing in the far recesses of his mind, he is simply choosing to ignore that fact because it doesn't conform to the "narrative" he is presenting in support of his overall "this is all just mindless Obama bashing" comments.

Must be nice to be able to read minds.

362 jayzee  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:47:53am

Bush should not have sucked up to the Saudis and neither Obama. Bush should've been stronger with the Iranians and North Koreans and so too Obama.

Cheney and Bolton were right.

363 Right mind left  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:48:02am

re: #360 Charles

A thought experiment for those who are frothing at me for pointing out the essential hypocrisy of bashing Obama while excusing Bush...

Would you have been:

A) More upset, or

B) Less upset

...if Obama had done exactly what Bush did, and bowed his head to receive a medal from King Abdullah?

If you're honest, you'll admit that you'd be screaming about that even more.

Charles, I think it is a matter of context. It appears Obama is running to the Saudi King to kiss his feet. Bush visited the King long after being in office. I am not fomenting, it is just perspective on the differences between the two, their boundaries, etc.

By the way, as I posted, all heads of state get the same medal from this King...I wonder if all of them bow to allow it onto their persons or require it be given in a box...hmmmm.

364 Bagua  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:48:21am

re: #286 limeshurbet

#202: That's the disingenuous BS I am talking about.

LEANING DOWN to receive a medal and BOWING as President of the United States aren't the same thing.

And you know it, Charles. YOU KNOW IT.

.

Actually, if one carefully examines both video's,

Bush did not just lean his head down to accept the medal, he had his hands by his side and bowed low in a very formal gesture of respect and submission.

By contrast, Obama looked more like he may have stumbled, bowing mid stride in a very informal fashion standing at attention.

Further, Bush's bow was clearly well scripted and prepared in advance, whereas Obama's seemed spontaneous.

Bush bowed during a formal ceremony representing the USA with the full knowledge that he was being filmed and photographed.

Obama bowed during a casual gathering when people were just milling about, and what's worse he didn't kiss. The Saudi king must have been very insulted.

Bush by contrast showed himself a tame and respectful lap-dog of the Saudi's.

365 avanti  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:48:28am

re: #360 Charles

A thought experiment for those who are frothing at me for pointing out the essential hypocrisy of bashing Obama while excusing Bush...

Would you have been:

A) More upset, or

B) Less upset

...if Obama had done exactly what Bush did, and bowed his head to receive a medal from King Abdullah?

If you're honest, you'll admit that you'd be screaming about that even more.

He shoots, he scores. The odd thing is I check the news every day, and even Drudge has not touched it, that part does seem strange given the blog attention.

366 limeshurbet  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:48:54am

re: #360 Charles

Or..

C) Had the exact same reaction

Little easier to win the game when you rig it, huh Charles?

367 snowcrash  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:49:58am

re: #347 Zimriel
So true and obvious to anyone who doesn't live on either coast.

368 Opinionated  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:50:30am

re: #353 Zimriel

That was at least an assertion and not a simple downding.

The next stage for our Rudy fans should be to show where my assertions are wrong. Or, you can just get mad and hit the minus.

I didn't down-ding you, why would I.

Your assertions are wrong because they are not based on anything real. They are based on the myths you believe.

I was a New Yorker prior to and during his term. I know what he is like and what he did.

I don't like the guy personally. I wouldn't pick him as a friend. I do however understand his thinking, his politics and his competence.

He would make a great President. SoCons wouldn't give him the time of day to explain and we have Obama.

I think that's a bad thing. You?

369 bolivar  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:50:39am

re: #355 realwest

Hi HY! I agree with your analysis of railroads in this country, but the problem BEGINS with getting whatever you're shipping to the railhead, then picking it up at the train station to deliver it where it's needed.
NYC, for example, in spite of some genuine frustration with the MTA, has subways and buses that make it possible - with a map, compass and a whole lotta money - to get from point A to Point Z.
But that doesn't put food in the supermarkets, drugs in the drugstores, etc. etc.
America - despite the example of the French (who receive, iirc, 75% of their electrical power needs from nuclear reactors) is simply stymied by the Enviornmentalists and their political allies from using the ONE currently VIABLE alternative to fossil fuels.
And while electric powered vehicles seem to be making some headway (iirc Tesla has a vehicle that will now carry 5 adults a distance of 300 miles before recharging) they still need a source of electricity.
I never thought I'd say this, but I do think we should follow the example set by the French and get nuclear reactors on-line as soon as possible.
Someday Solar or Wind or something no one has thought of yet will be able to replace those fossil fuels, but until they do we are stuck with them.

Sorry realwest, the Tesla is only a 2 seater I believe. You are completely right otherwise. I usually do agree with your posts. Nuclear is the way to go for the immediate future. So many seem to be unaware that the earth is fueled by nuclear power to some extent. Scientists still cannot fully account for the increased radioactivity deep down and the safe reaction of fission can account for it pretty well.

Nuclear is what we should pursue right now. To hell with windmills - never gonna do it and they look like hell. The amount of good ground we have to give up is just not feasible. Sea based farms have some possibility but as long as the ol fossil swimmer is around it won't happen off Cape Cod. I mean, he just should NOT have to possibly see this from his palacial estate now should he?

370 Opinionated  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:52:16am

re: #367 snowcrash

So true and obvious to anyone who doesn't live on either coast.

Oh good. another Republican that believes the Americans living on the coasts- with all their Electoral votes- don't count.

Thank you for President Obama.

371 limeshurbet  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:52:21am

re: #361 Charles

I notice that isn't a denial.

372 Pupdawg  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:53:48am

From most recent reports or surveys the overwhelming majority of Americans would prefer that we wean ourselves from all foreign oil including the crude suckled from the teet of Saudia Arabia.
I am not 100% certain but I think John Adams bowed to King Goerge not in the position of POTUS. It was also common protocol instructed to him by the staff of King George, I also think.
...as reported after the POTUS and First Lady recently met the Queen, the staff of the Queen neither encourages nor dissuades dignitaries, heads of state or their spouses to touch or not to touch the Queen.

373 tryptic67  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:54:17am

Others have pointed out that John Adams did not become Vice President of the United States until 1789, or president of the United States until 1797, so this sort of comparison (Adams did it too) must elicit a huge "so what".

If that fact doesn't convince you, perhaps these will. Adams was a diplomat with barely any standing ... who had been continuously in Europe since 1779 as a diplomat .... living in quasi-isolation with his wife in London where Tory papers openly discussed whether he should be seized and hanged for his treason .... who needed to effect some sort of reconciliation with the United Kingdom so that his fledgling nation might survive .... who had to bow to the King, just like any other minister. Had he 'dissed' George III, the best he could hope for is to be dismissed from Court. Barack Obama, by contrast, is the President of the world's greatest power and just sucked up to a monarch he didn't need to suck up to ... while President ... in the most amazingly servile way possible.

Finally, had it been known that Adams did bow to George III, he might have feared for his safety at home from the Jeffersonian lunatics who would later brand him an "angloman" and a secret monarchist anyway .... base lies against a man, after all, who hazarded more than Jefferson ever did during the Revolution. Do keep in mind, this isn't hyperbole. John Jay was burned in effigy for the temerity of even making peace with the United Kingdom in 1794; anti British sentiment in the US during the early Federal period was infinitely higher than any anti-Saudi feeling today. So again, the comparison is utterly inapt.

Thus, to say "Adams did it" is tantamount to comparing 21st century apples to 18th century oranges. It strains credulity. It is fallacious. It is beneath you. I wish we could convince you to our position. What Obama did is just plain beyond the pale. But, apparently, we cannot get you to change your mind. Such is politics.

374 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:55:03am

re: #371 limeshurbet

I notice that isn't a denial.

Ooh, you got me there!

375 piraticalbob  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:55:50am

One of the tales told of Vlad Tepes (Dracula) of Wallachia is that two ambassadors from the Turks approached him without doffing their turbans in his presence. Dracula asked why they did not show him the customary respect, and the ambassadors said that it was not the custom of their country to remove their turbans as a greeting. "Commendable. Let me then reinforce you in your beliefs," declared Dracula, and summoned his guards, who were instructed to fasten the ambassadors' turbans to their head with nails.

Different customs are suitable to different time periods - - and different tyrants.

376 realwest  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 10:59:39am

re: #323 guitarguy
"Leave a woman to die and make every attempt to cover-up your involvement = Hands off"
WTF are you talking about?

377 realwest  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:03:40am

re: #369 bolivar
Well the other night - sometime last week - an LGFer pointed to a surprisingly "sexy" looking car made by Tesla and at the link to Tesla, they claimed it would seat 5 adults and two children in a rear-facing backseat.
But the important thing is IT RUNS ON ELECTRICITY and from where are we supposed to get that electricity ?
Yep, right now nukes or coal or oil.

378 snowcrash  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:03:40am

re: #370 Opinionated
I don't believe that at all and I didn't give you Obama either. I grew up in Boston and I like Rudy's style. He is an acquired taste that much of fly over America wouldn't get. No insult just what I see from living the last 20 years in TX.

379 Mad Mullah  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:03:47am

I don't believe that I suffer from Obama derangement syndrome, but I do believe that it is not correct to state that Bush bowed to the Saudis. Yes, the USA has been metaphorically bowing to that nasty nation for far too long, yet the only POTUS to actually bow to the Saudis is Obama. I posted a video in the other thread yesterday showing raw footage of Bush arriving in Saudi Arabia, and he most definitely does not bow when first meeting the ruler. He kisses on the cheeks and gives a handshake, and while that may be objectionable, it is not a bow.

Given Obama's upbringing in an Islamic country and his Muslim father and his ex-church and pastor which had very friendly relations with Islamic bigots such as Farrakhan and Obama's secret tape which the LA times refused to release, I believe that this episode will only strengthen the convictions of the crowd that believes that Obama is some sort of secret Muslim. I am not one of those nirth certificate loonies, but I can't really blame anybody for having doubts or concerns about Obama, because I have many concerns myself about the man. I am honestly not sure what he is or what his intentions are. His speech today in Turkey didn't do much to change my mind about him.

380 realwest  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:05:12am

Well I'm outta here for some lunch - have a great day you all and I hope I get the chance to see you all down the road.

381 Bagua  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:05:34am

re: #379 Mad Mullah

Did you not see the video in which Bush made a very formal bow?

382 Zimriel  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:07:27am

re: #368 Opinionated

Your assertions are wrong because they are not based on anything real. They are based on the myths you believe. I was a New Yorker prior to and during his term. I know what he is like and what he did. I don't like the guy personally. I wouldn't pick him as a friend. I do however understand his thinking, his politics and his competence.

I've already conceded his competence to make the trains run on time etc. "Competence" is necessary, but not sufficient, for a supporter of the Constitution. We don't want someone to competently succeed in reinterpreting it into a shred of paper.

He would make a great President. SoCons wouldn't give him the time of day to explain and we have Obama.

I think that's a bad thing. You?

Again, I don't want TR-style "greatness" in a Presidency. I want a humble servant of the Constitution.

You seem to be of the opinion that Giuliani could calmly explain, and re-explain, why his way is better for us. We both understand his thought; he is a fiscal conservative and an authoritarian. He explained that to us clearly enough.

I reiterate: Giuliani's thought is incompatible with a limited-government, conservative interpretation of the Constitution. It's not about creationism, or abortion, or guns; those are caricatures of the case against him. And that is why he can't, and shouldn't, win a primary among the Republicans.

383 Mad Mullah  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:08:00am

re: #381 Bagua

Did you not see the video in which Bush made a very formal bow?

I suppose that I did not. I am not sure which video you are referring to. If Bush actually did bow to the Saudis in the same way that Obama did, then that would alleviate some of my concerns regarding Obama.

384 medaura18586  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:08:11am

re: #347 Zimriel

I've said this on numerous occasions, and I always earn a few downdings for it, so I'll just gather in some more...

Giuliani, more so than McCain, doesn't understand conservatism outside the Northeast, and he doesn't want to understand it. His conservatism is fiscal and authoritarian. There's a place for both in American politics, and I can respect that, but those alone are a loser elsewhere - and, although no-one seems to want to admit it, it's not much of an winner in the Northeast either.

His attitude to social conservatives (I am one) is: vote for me, or else sit at home and let the Democrat win; I'd be fine with either one, because I don't care what you think. "I don't pander", he tells himself; and that absolves him of any effort to understand the philosophical underpinnings of (for instance) resistance to Roe v Wade and to a federal licence to bear arms.

I was rooting for Rudy throughout the campaign -- not because he represents my political ideal, but out of necessity for pragmatic optimization, given the other choices.

I liked his fiscally conservative rhetoric (the most sincere and least compromised out of all candidates, not counting Ron Paul, who is a kook for other reasons). No complains there.

I was not blind to the authoritarian vibes emanating from his persona, though I'm not sure what your beef with it is. If you are a social-conservative, as you declare yourself to be, authoritarianism is part and parcel of your political philosophy. What you seem to complain about is his particular flavor of authoritarianism: tough on drugs but not on abortion.

You are admittedly eclectic in your socially conservative pickings, as I remember on the Pot thread you came in favor of legalization. But you must admit that your constitution is rather unique. Should Rudy be burdened with adhering to your particular brand of authoritarianism or having to explicitly explain why his position differs from yours?

It's not as if he hasn't offered explanations for his view on abortion. Beyond that, if he still can't convince everybody, his position is that he can't be all things to all people. So he won't pander. But it's not as if he has dismissed his ideological opponents' worldview. He simply rejects it, and offers comprehensive reasons for doing so.

Where should the burden of proof lie? Please do explain your reasons for objecting to Roe v. Wade. I will likely disagree with them. In the end, if you were running for public office and meant to stay true to your convictions, you'd simply decide not to pander to likes of me. Pure and simple.

I also think Rudy's position on gun control has often been misinterpreted. He is pro Second Amendment, but he believes local authorities should be able to regulate the practicalities of gun possession -- a fairly reasonable stance.

385 Bagua  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:10:12am

re: #383 Mad Mullah

The one posted on the front page of this blog we are both reading. Bush made a very formal bow as part of an official ceremony.

No not exactly the same, Obama's bow was informal, Bush's was far more respectful.

386 Gus  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:14:04am

BREAKING NEWS!

Well, not exactly.

While speaking in Austrian Obama "mistakenly" uses the word "Austrian" in describing the language of that country:

It was also interesting to see that political interaction in Europe is not that different from the United States Senate. There's a lot of -- I don't know what the term is in Austrian -- wheeling and dealing -- and, you know, people are pursuing their interests, and everybody has their own particular issues and their own particular politics.

Checked with good old Wiki and there is Austrian-German or Österreichisches Deutsch. Using the word Austrian isn't very far off the mark.

Another day, another triviality.

387 Randall Gross  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:14:28am

There are others equally incensed that Obama bowed to the queen:

The First Black President Bows, the First Black Lady Curtsies before the Racist Royals
DarthDubious's picture

The sight of any U.S. President literally bowing to British Royals should be enough to make any red-blooded American literally retch. The fact that the latest to do so is America’s first black President made yesterday’s exchange between Obama and the Queen of England even more sickening.

Before meeting the Queen, and her infamously racist husband, Prince Philip, Obama announced that he “loves” her, and that “in the imagination of people throughout America” the queen stands for “decency” and “civility”.

How disgustingly ironic that the first black President of the so called “free world” should refer to the most entrenched prejudiced, and elitist institution in Europe as an icon of “civility”!

How repugnantly deplorable that the President should call “decent” a bloodline that has for centuries declared itself as God’s appointed rulers over half of the planet, killing, torturing, and maiming anyone who crosses it, in order to hold on to that mantle.

Stories circulated too, regarding Obama practicing bowing, and brushing up on courtly etiquette ahead of the meeting.

Royal protocol dictates that men do a neck bow, and women do a slight curtsy — though a handshake is considered acceptable as long as the Queen offers her hand first, Politico reported.

388 Gus  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:15:17am

Correction:

While speaking in Austrian Austria Obama "mistakenly" uses the word "Austrian" in describing the language of that country

PIMF

389 funky chicken  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:20:55am

re: #81 dhg4

Apparently Truman didn't show sufficient deference to the Saudis.

(Source: SUSRIS - this is a commemoration the first meeting between FDR and ibn Saud.)

Palin reminds me of Truman in a lot of ways.

390 Gus  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:25:54am

re: #387 Thanos

Looks like Darth Dubois is another conspiracy nutcase.

391 reine.de.tout  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:27:37am

re: #383 Mad Mullah

I suppose that I did not. I am not sure which video you are referring to. If Bush actually did bow to the Saudis in the same way that Obama did, then that would alleviate some of my concerns regarding Obama.

The video was posted in a thread last night, here.

Bush did indeed bow his head, to receive some sort of medal.

It was a different sort of bow than Obama's. The Bush/Saudi images that sickened me to the same degree that Obama's bow did were the ones taken in Crawford - the President's personal home, to which he invited these people! - and the walking around hand-in-hand.

Both men have shown great deference to the Saudis.

It's my opinion that any show of deference to the Saudis should disgust us, regardless of who it's from or what form it takes.

But I will also say that in the end, in the matter of having this country's best interests at heart, I trusted Bush a heck of a lot more than I trust Obama.

392 guitarguy  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:31:33am
Gee, I'm sorry you weren't allowed to spew venom at a man suffering from a stroke.

Venom?
Who spewed venom?
I didn't spew 'venom'.

I made the point that he lived to see another 40 years, and she didn't....because of him.

(....and you left out the part about him leaving a young woman to die.)

For what it’s worth;
Imagine being an observer of all that went down on that Chappaquiddick night.
How would you feel?
How angry would you be?
Now what has occurred in the past 40 years that would make anyone say: “Chappaquiddick, shmappaquiddick......Don’t embarrass the poor guy…”


If King Abdullah suffers a stroke, will that elevate him to 'Hands-off' status....?

393 Randall Gross  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:31:45am

re: #390 Gus 802

Looks like Darth Dubois is another conspiracy nutcase.

Yes he is, I"m just pointing out that there are protocols, and most pres. observe them.

394 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:33:04am

re: #392 guitarguy

Venom?
Who spewed venom?
I didn't spew 'venom'.

I made the point that he lived to see another 40 years, and she didn't....because of him.

(....and you left out the part about him leaving a young woman to die.)

For what it’s worth;
Imagine being an observer of all that went down on that Chappaquiddick night.
How would you feel?
How angry would you be?
Now what has occurred in the past 40 years that would make anyone say: “Chappaquiddick, shmappaquiddick......Don’t embarrass the poor guy…”

If King Abdullah suffers a stroke, will that elevate him to 'Hands-off' status....?

And with that, I will make it easier for you to find somewhere else to post your comments, by blocking your account. Buh-bye.

395 Zimriel  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:35:59am

re: #384 medaura18586

I was rooting for Rudy throughout the campaign -- not because he represents my political ideal, but out of necessity for pragmatic optimization, given the other choices.

I liked his fiscally conservative rhetoric (the most sincere and least compromised out of all candidates, not counting Ron Paul, who is a kook for other reasons). No complains there.

I was not blind to the authoritarian vibes emanating from his persona, though I'm not sure what your beef with it is. If you are a social-conservative, as you declare yourself to be, authoritarianism is part and parcel of your political philosophy. What you seem to complain about is his particular flavor of authoritarianism: tough on drugs but not on abortion.

You are admittedly eclectic in your socially conservative pickings, as I remember on the Pot thread you came in favor of legalization. But you must admit that your constitution is rather unique. Should Rudy be burdened with adhering to your particular brand of authoritarianism or having to explicitly explain why his position differs from yours?

My authoritarianism is on the side of science; that is, I have posted that there should be a state-supported doctrine of consensus science, and that this should be treated under the Judicial Branch. They, even more so than the courts, would be forbidden from implementing policy. Such doctrines could be changed only through the channel of peer-reviewed science, and never through legislation. This would of course have to hold precedence over the First Amendment clause on the establishment of religion (not on free speech and press, though).

That, I agree, is an authoritarianism, and I'll take my lumps for it.

I am still working out the kinks in my theory of government.

But I wasn't really talking about what I'm for; I was explaining what I was against. I've dealt with guns (and drugs) elsewhere; I'll explore the gun thing in more detail later on ("local authorities" seems like an end run about the 14th Amendment as well as the 2nd, but I'm just basing that on your post, so it's surely unfair), and see what I can dig up.

My opposition to Roe v Wade is focused on that decision; it was an act of interpretation which amounted to legislation. If the country passed an actual law mandating a pro-choice nation, I might not like it for moral reasons, but it would at least be ethical (Constitutional). I do not consider that "authoritarian". Rather the opposite actually.

396 Olderthandirt  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:38:19am

re: #222 Bookworm
There's nor record of John Adams meeting KG III while Adams served as president.

However, the incident referred to in Charles note happened when John Adams was our first ambassador to England and he was presented to KG III.

Still, I agree that no American should ever bow to a foreign potentate. It should be grounds for removing a American's citizenships.

397 funky chicken  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:38:52am

re: #305 Opinionated

Long before he announced he was running, many suggested that he had no chance considering the conservative groups that predominate the early process.

He ran but I think he too deep inside didn't believe he could overcome that obstacle: which is why he kept pulling back to hopefully fight in Florida. By then it was too late for him to be taken seriously as a contender.

If the primaries were to start in the North East or West, I believe he would have easily won. Also if he had taken the only course really available to him - he should have run Third Party.

I doubt he will, but I would be thrilled if he ran Third Party in 2012.

Third party run = democrat win, unfortunately.

I do wish McCain had chosen Giuliani as his VP though. But the Ingrahams and Coulters of the world were screaming that McCain HAD BETTER PICK A PRO-LIFER FOR VP OR ELSE.

I like Sarah Palin, but she wasn't the smartest pick, IMHO.

398 Zimriel  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:44:41am

Sigh. Another Giuliani post, another ding from funky...

medaura: Thank you for taking the time to critique my comments in a respectful and honest manner.

399 medaura18586  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:45:12am

re: #396 Olderthandirt

Still, I agree that no American should ever bow to a foreign potentate. It should be grounds for removing a American's citizenships.

Sorry but that's pretty crazy!

400 tryptic67  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:48:15am

# 386. I am certain Obama knew that when he said Austrians speak Austrian. Don't Americans, after all, speak American? So says Wikipedia! And all this time you thought you were speaking in English. Tch. Tch. I bet most LGF'ers think they speak English. And all this time, they were so far from the mark.

Oh, never mind evidence that reveals (a) Obama is absolutely out of his depth when speaking to Europeans without Mr. Teleprompter or (b) further proof of media bias [if such is necessary] ... when you know what the result would have been had W made the same mistake (ridicule, disdain, days of jokes from Messrs. Stewart, Letterman, Leno et al). Pointing out such trivialities is beneath us. Or as Robert Gibbs says, a distraction. The only good news about O's trip to Europe is good news. All other news is trivia. We have no rational basis to point out Obama ineptitude or try to bring him down to earth. We should all be happy to let Obama ride foot loose and fancy free. As Professor Glenn, says, what could go wrong?

After all, if good old conservatives can't apologize for Obama, who can they apologize for?

401 jihadnemesis  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:57:37am

As to being hypocritical for not criticizing Bush also, I couldn't agree more. Though I didn't suffer BDS, and don't suffer ODS, they are both poor representations of America. Bush for his grade school blunderings, critical international miscalculations, for getting the bailout ball rolling, and for handing the nation to Obama on a silver platter. Obama for his eloquent manner of saying nothing, his ability to fool the people into believing that he's more than just another power hungry corrupt politician, and for following Bush's lead tenfold, as we race down the highway of economic ruin. Neither one is good for America, as they pander to the Saudi's and other special interests, as they pave the way for the big bucks once they're out of office.

402 medaura18586  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:00:32pm

re: #398 Zimriel

Sigh. Another Giuliani post, another ding from funky...

medaura: Thank you for taking the time to critique my comments in a respectful and honest manner.

I remember your posts from the earliest Spencer threads. I've even read some of your blog entries. You're a smart and educated person whose points deserve serious consideration.

That being said, we all have our mental blind spots. It's just easier to notice them in others. I thought your opposition to abortion on moral grounds had colored your perception of Rudy, but that doesn't seem to be the case judging by your reply.

Your authoritarian scientism sounds like a pretty horrible idea, to tell you the truth. The details haven't been worked out yet, you say, but I fail to conceive the possible relevance of this scientific political body that doesn't have policy-making authority... What would its authority be, then? Should this consensus science determine that pot damages brain cells (it does) what would the implications be? Would you side with Zombie then? Do people still retain the autonomy to go against the recommendations or findings of consensus science in their private lives?

Also, have you by any chance read Karl Popper?

403 Ojoe  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:04:53pm

Respectfully, Charles, I don't think American citizens should bow to anybody, and I would hope eventually to see a world where all have immense dignity and if any bow occurs at all, it would be a 2 person mutual bow.

404 medaura18586  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:10:15pm

re: #403 Ojoe

Charles is not advocating that American citizens bow to anybody. He is merely pointing out that what Obama did was not unprecedented, and people who would give Bush a pass for similar servility but cry bloody murder over the "Obama bow" are hypocrites.

And he is right.

405 Yashmak  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:12:07pm

The President is a servant of the people of the United States. That's what he really is. Some of our finest Presidents have understood, and displayed such humility before the people of this nation, and other world leaders as well.

It's too bad, that in this day and age, we so easily forget this. A small display of humility is quite becoming of a man who is supposed to be a servant of his people.

406 Ojoe  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:17:01pm

re: #404 medaura18586

True that.

We have not had a leader that understands what our country is about, for a long time.

It is very sad.


BBL

407 Zimriel  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:26:52pm

re: #402 medaura18586

Your authoritarian scientism sounds like a pretty horrible idea, to tell you the truth. The details haven't been worked out yet, you say, but I fail to conceive the possible relevance of this scientific political body that doesn't have policy-making authority... What would its authority be, then?

Questions of social utility would go to Congress. It would be antiConstitutional (with this amendment) to support national or (by the 14th amendment) state standards which go against this scientific "Council of Guardians".

I am using terms like "authoritarian" and drawing the parallels with Iran deliberately, so that other readers are aware that I am aware how dangerous it is what I am proposing. I do not want an American Imamate. I am using these terms as red flags to warn me off should I head too far in that direction.

Should this consensus science determine that pot damages brain cells (it does) what would the implications be? Would you side with Zombie then? Do people still retain the autonomy to go against the recommendations or findings of consensus science in their private lives?

Private lives? That depends on the legislature (and the legal courts). The scientific council, whatever we call it, can't make policy. It can only constrain the policies which are enacted. Like the courts are supposed to do.

I hope the legislators don't restrict our lives, and will vote against those who do.

Also, have you by any chance read Karl Popper?

No, never.

I see from Wiki that he has independently come up with the same notion I have posted about Darwin, that his theory of evolution is more metaphysical than scientific (I've mused that even Newton would have ignored it at first). What saves Darwin for me, is that this metaphysic forced scientists to look for testable theories, and we quickly got that with Mendeleev's genetics and, at last, DNA. And also, Darwin documented everything. He might not have been a Newton but he was at least a Kepler, and that ought to be enough to humble his detractors.

Maybe I should read Popper.

408 mypetjawa  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:32:24pm

Uh, Charles, Adams was an Ambassador at the time (subordinate) not President of the United States (equal).

Also, Adams was an Anglophile of the highest order, something that would come back to haunt him as President and one of the causes of him not winning a second term in office.

The point about cowtowing to the Saudis is valid, but not about bowing.

Shaking hands and kissing and what not are acts of affection and/or greeting.

Bowing is always an act of subordination.

409 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:38:23pm

re: #408 mypetjawa

Uh, Charles, Adams was an Ambassador at the time (subordinate) not President of the United States (equal).

Also, Adams was an Anglophile of the highest order, something that would come back to haunt him as President and one of the causes of him not winning a second term in office.

The point about cowtowing to the Saudis is valid, but not about bowing.

Shaking hands and kissing and what not are acts of affection and/or greeting.

Bowing is always an act of subordination.

I didn't say Adams was president when this happened -- and I've since edited the post to remove the language that caused confusion for some people.

And I completely disagree that there's something horrible and different about Obama's bow. When Bush accepted Abdullah's medal, he made a very formal bow, hands at his sides, extremely deferential.

American presidents have been bowing to the Saudis for decades. Some do it outright, others do it figuratively, by giving them everything they want, treating them like royalty, and refusing to criticize or demand that they reform their brutish misogynistic society. It's standard US politics, and has been for a long, long time, and it's no more or less infuriating when Barack Obama does it than when any other president does it.

410 mypetjawa  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:45:46pm

You know me, I'm all about the nuance. It comes from the years spent arguing in grad school over the minutest of details.

I do think there's a distinction, though, even if it's only academic.

I was also under the impression that the Bush bow was kind of like the Luke Skywalker bow to Leah: you bow so that the medal could go around your neck? Maybe I'm wrong. Haven't replayed the tape over and over and over like some have with the Obama bow.

But I think your larger point remains valid and probably more important inasmuch as our alliance and policies toward the House of Saud have far more of an impact than symbolic acts, such as bowing.

411 robdouth  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 12:59:51pm

re: #50 MandyManners

I don't understand why people would send nasty-grams to Charles just because he has a different POV. Differing POV's are what make life rich!

No actually, Chocolate is what makes life rich. The answer was chocolate, but thanks for playing.

412 essayons7  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:15:07pm

It's just diplomatic protocol. People really need to grow up if they're foaming at the mouth about this.

Not that I care for it much, but when in Rome.

413 A.W.  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:18:40pm

Charles, Charles,

You seriously need to calm down about this, as does many of your commenters.

First, you post a video saying it was bush bowing. Then it turns out to be a little less than that, so you change your post without mentioning that you changed it. Then you move the goalpost to how we have metaphorically bowed for years. well, yes, but there is a difference between metaphorically doing it and actually doing it.

And then you go all the way back to John Adams to justify it. Um, you know if it was George Washington, that would be one thing, but John Adams was not a particularly good president. I mean just the alien and sedition acts shows he was not getting this whole democracy thing. I mean I suppose you will cite Jimmy Carter next?

So Obama went further than any modern president, and it’s a little shameful. Not the end of the world. Not impeachable, but if I was president, I would never do anything so humiliating even with a friend like the Queen of England, let alone this petty tyrant in Saudi.

Btw, who exactly was calling this an impeachable offense? Care to name names?

Oh and please stop printing letters of people who love you to death for attacking people on your side. Its so Andrew Sullivan.

414 Joel  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:18:41pm

re: #400 tryptic67

Oh, never mind evidence that reveals (a) Obama is absolutely out of his depth when speaking to Europeans without Mr. Teleprompter or (b) further proof of media bias [if such is necessary] ... when you know what the result would have been had W made the same mistake (ridicule, disdain, days of jokes from Messrs. Stewart, Letterman, Leno et al). Pointing out such trivialities is beneath us. Or as Robert Gibbs says, a distraction. The only good news about O's trip to Europe is good news.
After all, if good old conservatives can't apologize for Obama, who can they apologize for?


Absolutely correct. Bush was the one who handed the White House to Obama and was not a fiscal conservative or much of a conservative himself. However the only good news about The One's trip to Europe is that he is not here in America.

415 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:19:35pm

re: #413 A.W.

Charles, Charles,

You seriously need to calm down about this, as does many of your commenters.

First, you post a video saying it was bush bowing. Then it turns out to be a little less than that, so you change your post without mentioning that you changed it. Then you move the goalpost to how we have metaphorically bowed for years. well, yes, but there is a difference between metaphorically doing it and actually doing it.

I haven't changed a thing. Bush bowed.

416 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:20:00pm

re: #413 A.W.

Oh and please stop printing letters of people who love you to death for attacking people on your side. Its so Andrew Sullivan.

You don't like that? Too bad.

417 Joel  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:21:18pm

re: #398 Zimriel

Sigh. Another Giuliani post, another ding from funky...

He said that he wished that McCain had chosen Giuliani for V.P. and I agree with him. However the SoCons who believe in the purity of losing would not have him.

418 Ojoe  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:29:30pm

re: #412 essayons7

I think it is more than protocol; it is about wether the USA is different, or not, and wether in the sweep of human history we are going to leave behind the division between overlords and fawning underlings, or not.

So, I think all of these bows are a motion backwards in the story of humanity, and I don't like them.

419 Joel  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:33:10pm

re: #375 piraticalbob

One of the tales told of Vlad Tepes (Dracula) of Wallachia is that two ambassadors from the Turks approached him without doffing their turbans in his presence. Dracula asked why they did not show him the customary respect, and the ambassadors said that it was not the custom of their country to remove their turbans as a greeting. "Commendable. Let me then reinforce you in your beliefs," declared Dracula, and summoned his guards, who were instructed to fasten the ambassadors' turbans to their head with nails.

Different customs are suitable to different time periods - - and different tyrants.

I heard that same story (probably apocryphal in both cases) about Ivan the Terrible (Ivan IV) of Russia.

420 A.W.  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:42:32pm

Charles

Its so sad to see you digging in like this.

I always said about Dan Rather, the real sin wasn't airing the phony documents. Anyone could have done that. It was refusing to admit they were phony when people like you made it obvious. But its a hard thing to admit that you are wrong. i know, hell my wife can tell you how i had to work on that. But sometimes you have to.

i don't think you have been hoodwinked. i think you just saw something differently than us, but i know in your heart you recognize the difference and you are just too proud to admit your initial assessment is wrong.

Bush bending his neck forward to get a medal is not the same as bowing. Everyone knows that. That is why Obama's people aren't admitting he bowed: because they know the people back home aren't going to like it, and not just the people on the right. if there were people calling for impeachment over this, they are off base. but it is a new low in our lamentable relationship with the house of saud and to pretend it isn't is just ignoring reality. At the same time, while being a new low, it isn't a very serious break from what Bush recently did, holding hands and the like. its all very shameful, and obama is only slightly worse than most.

Btw, one more thing. John Adams wasn't president when he bowed, so he's got that. But then Adams is rightfully considered one of our worst presidents anyway, so i really don't particularly care about what he did. I'd say the only thing Adams did right was appoint a certain chief justice...

421 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:43:25pm

re: #420 A.W.

No, I do not agree, and I am not wrong.

422 Ojoe  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 1:54:43pm

And to think that this Saudi thing goes back to the British navy converting from coal fuel to oil.

423 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 2:03:52pm
424 Bookworm  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 2:07:33pm

re: #254 Walter L. Newton

Since you rely on obscenity, I assume you have little in the way of argument. However, I'll do you the courtesy of extending to you a single fact: Obama spent part of his young life raised within the Muslim tradition. I would not go so far as to say that he is currently a practicing Muslim. His faith is his own concern. I will say, however, that the practices we pick up during our impressionable years can die hard.

425 Opinionated  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 2:08:53pm

re: #382 Zimriel

I've already conceded his competence to make the trains run on time etc.

With that one sentence you telegraph your bias. So Giulaini is a Fascist? Because you know! You've been told!

Defamatory nonsense.


Again, I don't want TR-style "greatness" in a Presidency. I want a humble servant of the Constitution.

And it is you who decides who fits that criteria?

I wonder what holier then thou constitutional "servant" you support for President. Someone who would never have a chance in Hell to be elected- of that I am certain.

Excuse those of us who prefer to live in the real World. A real world where your attitude eliminates great men and leaves us with a Bush -and in reaction- an Obama.

426 gegenkritik  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 2:10:49pm

I think the question if Bush bowed or not, is absurd and irrelevant, since it's just a gesture. The problem aren't personal obeisances, but the fact that no US-President has cut the ties to one of the most barbaric regimes in the world, and this is one of the few points where Bush can be criticized.

427 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 2:21:16pm

re: #426 gegenkritik

I think the question if Bush bowed or not, is absurd and irrelevant, since it's just a gesture. The problem aren't personal obeisances, but the fact that no US-President has cut the ties to one of the most barbaric regimes in the world, and this is one of the few points where Bush can be criticized.

And this is the point I've been making over and over and over, while people continue to scream that it's "different" when Barack Obama does it.

428 gegenkritik  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 3:25:12pm

re: #427 Charles
Yes, it really seems a little strange when some people are insisting that there's a difference ("but it was a medal!" ... ). The (too) good relationships to Saudi Arabia have been a continuousness of America's foreign-policy for many years and I am afraid this won't change in the next decades.

429 Zimriel  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 3:57:10pm

As for Rudy's man-on-the-white-horse authoritarianism, if you need a New Yorker's opinion, I've found this by the NY Daily News.

Here's a fun quote from Rudy: Freedom is about authority. Woo. If I said that on here I'd get a bunch of downdings. As it is, I'll get 'em anyway for pointing out that Rudy said it and has never ceased thinking it. Keep firing, assholes!

Here's more on the Nifong of the North, from NYT. I could go on, but you are just as able to google the 1510 articles in Reason.com which mention "giuliani" as I am.

As for whom I'd choose instead, I'm not here to support a candidate. I'm here to explain that Rudy worship represents an "authoritarian progressive" strain in American thought. He's your candidate; you own him.

And please, find a better defence than "he's more electable than anyone you'd pick!" Looking around, I can see that he's not our President, so his electability is disproven right there.

430 Zimriel  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 4:00:53pm

You know, at least when I propose authoritarian ideas, I admit them, document them, defend them, and limit them. Rudy supporters just say, "give him power, I trust him".

Fun stuff.

431 N. O'Brain  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 4:03:25pm

Um, dude, the President is not bowing, he's leaning over to recieve a medal.

Try looking at what you're looking at.

As to John Adams, well, the non-bowing tradition hadn't been established yet, so I forgive him.

432 N. O'Brain  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 4:08:21pm

"I think the question if Bush bowed or not, is absurd and irrelevant, since it's just a gesture."

Is giving someone the finger is "just a gesture".

Leaning over to recieve a medal is a convenience.

Bowing before a foreign potentate is a disgrace.

433 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 4:09:57pm

re: #431 N. O'Brain

Uh, dude... Definition of bow:

bow (bo̵u)
intransitive verb

2. to bend down one's head or bend one's body in respect, agreement, worship, recognition, etc.

434 N. O'Brain  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 4:14:06pm

"2. to bend down one's head or bend one's body in respect, agreement, worship, recognition, etc."

Yep, that's what O!bama did. Good call.

435 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 4:27:54pm

re: #434 N. O'Brain

Good nickname, by the way. Fits.

436 gegenkritik  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 4:38:17pm

re: #432 N. O'Brain

"I think the question if Bush bowed or not, is absurd and irrelevant, since it's just a gesture."

Is giving someone the finger is "just a gesture".

Leaning over to recieve a medal is a convenience.

Bowing before a foreign potentate is a disgrace.


I meant that much more important than the gesture itself is the real foreign-policy. I wouldn't care too much if any President bows or follows any other official protocol, when at the same time he is making very clear words about the violations of human rights in Saudi-Arabia.

437 Yashmak  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 5:02:54pm

re: #432 N. O'Brain


Bowing before a foreign potentate is a disgrace.

No it's not. Not if the President remembers that above all else, he's a servant of the people, not a king.

438 Yashmak  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 5:03:43pm

re: #431 N. O'Brain


As to John Adams, well, the non-bowing tradition hadn't been established yet, so I forgive him.

Yeah, he was too busy following the already established tradition of bowing.

439 shaker  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 5:15:32pm

Charles, Bush lowered his head to receive a medal. Obama practically kissed the ground. I think there is a difference.

440 landivar  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 6:11:28pm

I don't care if Adams did it. He wasn't the freaking president at the time he was a diplomat. Charles, the president of the US should bow to no one. Bush was accepting a freaking medal and even that bothers me.


_________________________________

Don't bend your knee, don't bend your neck.
Not to any powers, not to any potentates.
I do not care who they are,
Short of God we should not submit
We should not bow, We are Americans.

As Esther's uncle Modekai
Head unbent he faced the gallows
Stood his ground, did what was right
And did not bow to Persian might

441 landivar  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 6:20:09pm

re: #93 Afrocity

I also like Palin, and not because she is attractive.

442 Grimace  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:22:55pm

I think the John Adams example actually goes fruther to prove the point Charles. He was one of the few Founding Fathers who had a liking of royalty. He even wanted certain royal salutations toward the President. His likings were in the minority.

443 [deleted]  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 9:54:21pm
444 Jimmah  Mon, Apr 6, 2009 11:02:21pm

re: #420 A.W.

Bush bending his neck forward

It's really quite funny to witness the rationalisation that is going on here. I fully expect to see someone use the phrase 'leaning down' before long.

The fact is - and this point has been made many times - 'bowing' and 'leaning down to forward-pitch your neck to receive a medal' - however you want to phrase it - BOTH indicate a level of respect and deference towards the Saudis that they do not deserve. It is hypocritical for either political side to express outrage over this.

Sad that you fell the need to persist in the denial of this glaringly obvious fact.

445 Cugel  Tue, Apr 7, 2009 3:27:55am

I don't see why you're getting hate mail on this, Charles. You won't get any from me.

I just don't think the bow was appropriate to his position in the modern context and certainly in regard to the Saudi context, regardless of whether anyone bowed to anyone anytime previously. To me, as a diplomat, it either suggests that he wasn't briefed appropriately or (more likely) he ignored advice and is just making his moves up as he goes along. I also think his speech in Turkey was embarrassing and weak. Personally, I think he's trying to please too many people who aren't Americans, or be known for great Statesmanlike speeches. He wants to be JFK, and be chummy with the European Left, but other generations will be left to deal with the reality.

Regards Turkey, specifically, sucking up to any religion is a losing game, especially if the religion has a militant sense of superiority and self-entitlement.

446 Yashmak  Tue, Apr 7, 2009 7:10:00am

re: #440 landivar

I don't care if Adams did it. He wasn't the freaking president at the time he was a diplomat. Charles, the president of the US should bow to no one. Bush was accepting a freaking medal and even that bothers me.

As well as being a servant of the people, the President is always a diplomat. How hard is that to understand?

It's not about the Saudis deserving respect or not. It's about being the bigger man and showing respect and humility even if it's not deserved. I can't fault either Bush or Obama for their diplomatic gestures.

447 frater eosphoros  Tue, Apr 7, 2009 7:16:40am

Zod is still waiting for his.

448 Ulpianus  Tue, Apr 7, 2009 8:47:00am

To Yashmak,

You said, "As well as being a servant of the people, the President is always a diplomat. How hard is that to understand?"

Nonsense, sometimes he is the commander and chief of the armed forces, and the leader of our military bowing before a foreign prince is a contemptible site, particularly since there was no necessity in it.

If you are going to embarrass yourself by prostrating yourself before an eastern prince, you best get something from the doing of it.

449 Jim D  Tue, Apr 7, 2009 9:02:14am

re: #443 Zack

Thanks dude. You're doing a super job confirming the conservative stereotype that we're all hateful, ignorant bigots.

450 Yashmak  Tue, Apr 7, 2009 10:46:47am

re: #448 Ulpianus


Nonsense, sometimes he is the commander and chief of the armed forces, and the leader of our military bowing before a foreign prince is a contemptible site, particularly since there was no necessity in it.

Nonsense? It's laughable to me that so many here seem to take it as a personal affront that the leader of our nation, when meeting a foreign dignitary, places primary importance on his role as a dignitary (rather than, I guess as you'd have it, some sort of military general), and acts accordingly. Some of us here have some pride issues if we feel somehow lessened because our President acts in a diplomatic manner when on a mission of diplomacy.

451 jsulman  Tue, Apr 7, 2009 2:37:16pm

re: #210 The Monster

Good point Monster. I was going say the same thing but thought I'd do a search to see if anybody had already posted it. You beat me to it!

To be completely honest the reference to Adams should be removed as an example.

452 jsulman  Tue, Apr 7, 2009 2:41:10pm

re: #442 Grimace

I think the John Adams example actually goes fruther to prove the point Charles. He was one of the few Founding Fathers who had a liking of royalty. He even wanted certain royal salutations toward the President. His likings were in the minority.

Hamilton's view was very close to Adam's on the liking of royalty. Some of them were not as anti-royalty as we were taught.

But I do not think Adams would have bowed to King George III while he was president.


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