Laughable Headline of the Day

Middle East • Views: 10,338

As the Holocaust-denying puppet Prime Minister of the Palestinian Authority meets with Barack Obama, our laughable headline of the day is from the Associated Press: Abbas pushing pan-Arab peace with Israel.

Is there any diplomat anywhere who really believes there’s going to be a “pan-Arab peace with Israel,” if Israel agrees to withdraw to the 1967 borders? Is it really difficult to see that this enormous concession will only be the impetus for more demands, more attacks, more terrorism?

Arab diplomats said earlier this month that the U.S. had asked the 22-member Arab League to amend the 2002 Saudi initiative so that it would be more palatable to Israel.

“What we are discussing today is a combined approach of bringing together Arabs, Europeans and the United States as a team to create the circumstances over the next several months that allow Israelis and Palestinians to sit at the table, but also with Lebanese, Syrians and Arab nations,” Jordan’s Abdullah said at the time during a conference in Berlin.

It’s very easy to predict that any such meetings will quickly dissolve into discord and disaster. The only real question is whether the collapse would happen after a day or a week.

The so-called peace process in the Middle East has absolutely no chance of advancing until this bizarre denial of the fact of Arab rejectionism ceases. It doesn’t matter how many concessions Israel makes, and it doesn’t matter whether settlements keep expanding or whether they’re completely eliminated. The agenda of the Arab states is the destruction of Israel; they’re prepared to wait as long as it takes, and to sign any agreements they need to sign (and immediately break them) for that purpose — and in the meantime, any concessions will only embolden them into believing that goal is within reach.

Dealing honestly with this reality is the first step that needs to take place in any real peace process.

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275 comments
1 insanity police  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:17:27am

You are totally right Charles.

2 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:17:34am

If "Pan-Arab Peace Deal" means that Israel will have to be all Arab in composition for a peace deal to take place, then I do believe a Arabs could agree to a Pan Arab Peace Deal

3 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:18:20am

Hey Abbas...Fuck You

4 Bubblehead II  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:18:33am

"Dealing honestly with this reality is the first step that needs to take place in any real peace process."

Which is why it will never happen.

5 EaterOfFood  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:18:48am

Abbas is a war criminal.

6 insanity police  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:18:54am

Why would the rest of the Arab world listen to Abbas when he can't even get a majority of Palestinians to support him? (i.e. the majority supports Hamas and/or no peace with Israel).

7 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:19:04am

Any treaty or agreement Arab states sign with Israel have as much value as the newspapers that print such idiotic headlines and stories.

8 Cato the Elder  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:19:41am

The sleep of reason breeds monsters.

9 Dave the.....  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:20:05am

Every 6 mos...from 1980 something to today we see this headline. Or a similiar one saying if Israel will accept a 2 state solution, everything will be fine. Don't the MSM writers feel foolish recycling this?

10 Ward Cleaver  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:20:16am

Honesty and reality are in short supply in the Arab world.

11 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:20:30am

re: #4 Bubblehead II

"Dealing honestly with this reality is the first step that needs to take place in any real peace process."

Which is why it will never happen.

Well also, if we did deal honestly, where would we be?

12 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:20:35am

Here's what Abbas says
Abbas to present peace plan to Obama

In his meeting with US President Barack Obama on Thursday, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas is expected to propose the establishment of a supervisory committee, which would work under the Middle East Quartet in order to ensure that both Israel and the Palestinians are complying with their commitments.

According to Israel Radio, in a meeting in Washington on Wednesday night, Abbas said that he will present Obama with new ideas connecting the Road Map plan and the Arab League peace initiative.

Regarding the Palestinians right of return, Abbas said that he is not asking that 5 million Palestinian refugees return to Israel and noted that he had reached an understanding on the issue with former prime minister Ehud Olmert.

"We will not destroy Israel," he reportedly pledged. [KS- in English; in Arabic, he added "We have other groups to do that."]


(Brackets my interpretation)
He'll have the UN form the committee which will promptly blame Israel for everything.
And he'll demand something like 4,999,999 "refugees" get to "return".
And he's found that outright trying to destroy Israel won't work, so he's going to try to get Israel to destroy itself. That won't work either.

13 quickjustice  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:20:49am

The real reason there has been no permanent peace between Israel and the Palestinians is that the Palestinians have become cats paws and cannon fodder for other interests, including the Iranians, the Syrians, and their Hezbollah proxies. Peace is not in the interest of these regional players, so they continue to stir the pot.

Until Iran, Syria, and Hezbollah are dealt with, Israel will not be at peace.

14 kynna  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:21:22am

These peace deals often end up with someone getting a lot of money. No peace, just lined pockets. Obama has declared us broke. What's he going to bribe the Palistinians with? DVDs?

15 BatGuano  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:21:29am

Charles, for your commentary on that, you are my new bestest buddy!

16 Baier  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:21:32am

I agree with you Charles 100%. Until diplomats admit that antisemitism is the root of the conflict nothing will get done. But, if they admitted that antisemitism is the cause of the conflict, what would they be saying about themselves. The truth is too costly for them to admit.

17 davinvalkri  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:21:40am

re: #4 Bubblehead II

"Dealing honestly with this reality is the first step that needs to take place in any real peace process."

Which is why it will never happen.

Sad, but not completely unexpected. There needs to be some major regime change in the Middle East, and perhaps worldwide in those offices that contact the Middle East, for it to work. Oh well...

18 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:21:42am

Reality is in short supply.

Diplomacy is now and always has been based on convenient fictions. It is currently convenient politically and economically, since the Arabs have oil, I mean really, would anyone give a damn what they said if they didn't, to pretend that the emperor has no clothes.

This will obtain until we get off of oil.

There is no other way. If we want real peace in the middle east we have to develop alternative energy sources.

19 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:21:43am

re: #7 FurryOldGuyJeans

Any treaty or agreement Arab states sign with Israel have as much value as the newspapers that print such idiotic headlines and stories.

They won't even sign anything that doesn't have loopholes big enough to fit a truck bomb.

20 Honorary Yooper  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:22:01am

re: #11 SanFranciscoZionist

Well also, if we did deal honestly, where would we be?

At a real two-state solution, only it is called "Israel" and "Jordan". West and east of the River Jordan, respectively.

21 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:22:05am

re: #14 kynna

These peace deals often end up with someone getting a lot of money. No peace, just lined pockets. Obama has declared us broke. What's he going to bribe the Palistinians with? DVDs?

He can always start returning state gifts other presidents have received.

22 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:22:19am

re: #9 Dave the.....

Every 6 mos...from 1980 something to today we see this headline. Or a similiar one saying if Israel will accept a 2 state solution, everything will be fine. Don't the MSM writers feel foolish recycling this?

I don't know. There are a lot of weird things that keep getting recycled. My favorite is that this is a thousands-years-old ancient conflict. HUH?

23 yma o hyd  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:22:19am

Thing is - Western diplomats, any Western colonial power really, have never ever grasped the concept of taqqiya.
Thus they will keep on believing what any Arab head of governmet/diplomat tells them.

It seems they never compare all those flowery Arab phrases with the reality on the ground, or even with their own experience.

Israelis of course know better.

24 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:22:40am

re: #14 kynna

These peace deals often end up with someone getting a lot of money. No peace, just lined pockets. Obama has declared us broke. What's he going to bribe the Palistinians with? DVDs?

Excess GM inventory so they can make car bombs.
///////

25 2by2  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:23:10am

Thank you Charles,
this is an excellent post, one wishes that there would be others in the media who can see as clearly.

26 davinvalkri  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:23:18am

re: #23 yma o hyd

Thing is - Western diplomats, any Western colonial power really, have never ever grasped the concept of taqqiya.
Thus they will keep on believing what any Arab head of governmet/diplomat tells them.

It seems they never compare all those flowery Arab phrases with the reality on the ground, or even with their own experience.

Israelis of course know better.

Taqqiya...that's the right to lie about yourself and others in the advancement of Islam right? Do any other religions or cultures have that?

27 Baier  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:23:33am

re: #18 LudwigVanQuixote

Reality is in short supply.

Diplomacy is now and always has been based on convenient fictions. It is currently convenient politically and economically, since the Arabs have oil, I mean really, would anyone give a damn what they said if they didn't, to pretend that the emperor has no clothes.

This will obtain until we get off of oil.

There is no other way. If we want real peace in the middle east we have to develop alternative energy sources.

I disagree with you. Israeli policy is a handy way to be openly antisemitic. The Arabs need us to buy oil too much.

28 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:23:41am

re: #19 Kosh's Shadow

They won't even sign anything that doesn't have loopholes big enough to fit a truck bomb.

Why bother with even having loopholes when they can just ignore the signed provisions because the Koran demands it.

29 JohnnyReb  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:23:42am

re: #13 quickjustice

The real reason there has been no permanent peace between Israel and the Palestinians is that the Palestinians have become cats paws and cannon fodder for other interests, including the Iranians, the Syrians, and their Hezbollah proxies. Peace is not in the interest of these regional players, so they continue to stir the pot.

Until Iran, Syria, and Hezbollah are dealt with, Israel will not be at peace.

Just my opinion, but I suspect that when Iran tests a Nuke the Pali problem will vanish overnight. I suspect that all the players will drop the Palis like a hot potato and concentrate on holding back Iran. However, I could be just a very naive kinda guy.

30 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:23:50am

re: #20 Honorary Yooper

At a real two-state solution, only it is called "Israel" and "Jordan". West and east of the River Jordan, respectively.

Sounds good. Won't happen, any way that I can see.

31 bosforus  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:24:07am

The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Asia...

32 MJ  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:24:12am

Meanwhile, the Obama Administratio has told Israeli Jews to just die already:

"He wants to see a stop to settlements — not some settlements, not outposts, not 'natural growth' exceptions," Clinton said, referring in the last case to population growth on existing Israeli settlements in the West Bank from births and from allowances for adult offspring of settlers to buy homes near their parents.

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

33 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:24:48am

re: #28 FurryOldGuyJeans

Why bother with even having loopholes when they can just ignore the signed provisions because the Koran demands it.

For some reason, though, they haven't been able to say they accept Israel as a Jewish state, even if they'll go back on their word a millisecond later.

34 Danny  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:25:09am

I can only assume Bebe's chat with Barak didn't sink in.

35 yma o hyd  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:25:25am

re: #26 davinvalkri

Taqqiya...that's the right to lie about yourself and others in the advancement of Islam right? Do any other religions or cultures have that?

Christians have lied till the cows came home, and will go on lying - but it is not 'sanctioned' by their religion, to the contrary!

36 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:25:48am

re: #34 Danny

I can only assume Bebe's chat with Barak didn't sink in.

Obama can't remember much without a teleprompter.

37 lawhawk  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:25:55am

The media and the diplomats continue to spout off on the pseudoreality of the situation. They invent their own reality and substitute their own wishful thinking for the facts as they are.

Those facts include that the PA has refused to fulfill its obligations under Oslo. The world demands more concessions from Israel in the name of peace without making demands that the Palestinians do anything - like give up its war crimes of firing rockets and mortars against Israeli women and children.

Those facts include indoctrinating kids into jihad and hating Israel, which are specifically mentioned under Oslo.

That includes denouncing jihadis killed or captured while attacking Israel, instead of treating them as martyrs and honoring them as conquering heroes (hey, Samir Kuntar, I'm looking at you).

It means demanding that the UN deal with Hizbullah and disarm the terrorist group under UN SCR 1701, because they still threaten to attack Israel at the time and place of its choosing.

It means giving up the whole idea that settlements are an obstruction to peace. Unilateral withdrawal from Gaza shows that Israel can and has withdrawn from territories and communities, and the results have been war - the rocket war (which would have been war by suicide bomber but for the security fence, which itself is attacked for being too harsh on Palestinians). Stop attacking Israel, and you don't have security checkpoints and fences.

I believe that Israel can and would give up the West Bank in the name of peace, but even that wouldn't be enough since the Palestinians demand Jerusalem as well. That's a nonstarter, and until such time that the world recognizes Israel's right to Jerusalem, this conflict continues. Heck, the Arab world refuses to recognize Israel generally, except as a target for their ire (to deflect attention from their own inadequacies), or to secretly thank them when the Israelis take out major threats to their own regime (like terrorist masters and nuclear programs).

38 quickjustice  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:25:56am

The Iranian grab for regional hegemony, best exemplified by its development of a nuclear weapon, has scared the Sunni Arabs. It may provide an opening for Israel to work with the Sunnis to foil Iranian ambitions.

We'll see how smart the Arabs are about their own self-interests.

As for oil, Pickens, among others, thinks that Saudi production has peaked, and that they have a ten-year supply left. In strategic terms, that's not much time.

39 davinvalkri  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:26:18am

re: #30 SanFranciscoZionist

Sounds good. Won't happen, any way that I can see.

Sad ain't it, since most of the Palestinians are (ethnically or culturally? can't remember which) close to Jordan in nature. It'd be a perfect fit. Agh.

40 insanity police  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:26:52am

re: #13 quickjustice

The real reason there has been no permanent peace between Israel and the Palestinians is that the Palestinians have become cats paws and cannon fodder for other interests, including the Iranians, the Syrians, and their Hezbollah proxies. Peace is not in the interest of these regional players, so they continue to stir the pot.

Until Iran, Syria, and Hezbollah are dealt with, Israel will not be at peace.

I agree in part. The regional players are surely an impediment to peace. However, the Palestinians hate Israel as much as anyone, and likely would not agree to peace even without the regional players. The Palestinians are like an evil puppet, the ones pulling their strings are evil, but so is the pupet itself.

41 rhino2  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:26:55am

What did my mom call it when I was a kid? Oh right...selective hearing..hearing what you want to hear. Seems to me our current and past presidents suffer seriously from it when it comes to Middle East peace processes. They can hear "We want peace with Israel so long as they withdraw", but can't hear "wipe Israel off the map"?

42 kynna  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:26:55am

re: #34 Danny

I can only assume Bebe's chat with Barak didn't sink in.

*snort* President Obama was probably texting through the entire thing.

43 lawhawk  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:27:11am

re: #9 Dave the.....

No more so than my having to write every six months that the media and the diplomats and those who think that the peace process needs more concessions from Israel to make it happen.

44 Guanxi88  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:28:17am

re: #31 bosforus

The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Asia...

But only slightly less well-known is this: Never go against a Sicilian when death is on the line.

45 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:28:43am

re: #33 Kosh's Shadow

For some reason, though, they haven't been able to say they accept Israel as a Jewish state, even if they'll go back on their word a millisecond later.

Ok, so ONE loophole, but it is such a tiny, minor thing, hardly worth noticing.

/ is it sarcasm, or it is memorex?

46 quickjustice  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:28:47am

A great book on this topic: Dore Gold's "The Fight for Jerusalem".

47 albusteve  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:28:54am

re: #26 davinvalkri

Taqqiya...that's the right to lie about yourself and others in the advancement of Islam right? Do any other religions or cultures have that?

liberals?

48 Tumulus11  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:28:58am
'Obama's meeting with Abbas is the third of four key sessions the administration had planned as the president tries to reinvigorate the push for Middle East peace, an accord that has eluded American leaders, the Israelis and their Arab neighbors for more than a half-century.'


. A peace accord has eluded Israel's Arab neighbours for more than half a century just as it eluded Nazi Germany until May of 1945.

49 Sabnen  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:29:03am

Watching the "Peace Process" in the Middle East go on and on and on, around and around and around, for years and years and years, is like watching a hamster run on its' exercise wheel. What's the point?

Yes, I know the hamster gets exercise, but this Middle East "Peace Process," in its' present form, is leaving everyone brain dead. Nothing new hear.

50 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:29:04am

re: #26 davinvalkri

Taqqiya...that's the right to lie about yourself and others in the advancement of Islam right? Do any other religions or cultures have that?

Well, Judaism does, if you believe half of what these websites that cherry-pick the Gemara for damning quotes say!

Which leads me to this--can someone provide me with some source by a reputable scholar that discusses the general interpretation or acceptance of taqqiyah in different parts of the contemporary Muslim world? I see it used as a catch-phrase around here, mostly.

51 yma o hyd  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:29:09am

re: #32 MJ

Meanwhile, the Obama Administratio has told Israeli Jews to just die already:

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

But:
Israel rebuffs Hillary Clinton's call for halt in West Bank settlements

From that link:
'Israel’s new right-wing government was set for its first stand-off with the Obama Administration today, after it openly rebuffed a call from Washington to a total freeze on all Jewish settlements in the West Bank.'

And:
'A spokesman for Mr Netanyahu – who clashed with then president Bill Clinton when he was prime minister in the late 1990s – said that permission would be given to continue construction in existing settlements, some of which are sprawling towns built in the four decades that Israel has occupied the West Bank.
“Normal life in those communities must be allowed to continue,” said spokesman Mark Regev.'

52 debutaunt  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:29:33am

re: #44 Guanxi88

But only slightly less well-known is this: Never go against a Sicilian when death is on the line.

And don't criticize my spaghetti sauce.

53 bosforus  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:29:39am

re: #44 Guanxi88

But only slightly less well-known is this: Never go against a Sicilian when death is on the line.

Viccini vs. Ahmadinejad. Now that'd be fun.

54 kynna  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:29:54am

re: #44 Guanxi88

But only slightly less well-known is this: Never go against a Sicilian when death is on the line.

Ah ha ha ha ha h.....

55 Baier  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:30:12am

re: #42 kynna

*snort* President Obama was probably texting through the entire thing.

"Yo Rahm. In meetn w/leadr of joos. I h8 u peeps"

56 quickjustice  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:30:38am

re: #52 debutaunt

It's never a good idea to criticize a Sicilian wife's cooking. ;-)

57 Honorary Yooper  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:30:43am

re: #38 quickjustice

The Iranian grab for regional hegemony, best exemplified by its development of a nuclear weapon, has scared the Sunni Arabs. It may provide an opening for Israel to work with the Sunnis to foil Iranian ambitions.

We'll see how smart the Arabs are about their own self-interests.

As for oil, Pickens, among others, thinks that Saudi production has peaked, and that they have a ten-year supply left. In strategic terms, that's not much time.

They have a decent supply left. Ten years is a bit low, IMHO, but then again, Pickens is pushing his natural gas and wind power schemes.

58 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:30:49am

re: #52 debutaunt

And don't criticize my spaghetti sauce.

PFFFFFT! Spaghetti sauce.

Now diss my pasta sauce and there will be contention! ;)

59 davinvalkri  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:31:00am

re: #47 albusteve

liberals?

Ha ha ha...booo...

60 zombie  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:31:01am

Just saw a film called The Band's Visit.

If anybody wants to watch a rare non-offensive movie about Israelis and Arabs living together peacefully, check it out.

It's a comedy about an orchestra of Egyptian police musicians who travel to Israel to play a concert -- and take a wrong turn and end up getting lost in the most desolate isolated and boring village in all of Israel. The quirky Israelis, led by the town's sex-starved waitress, decides to play host to the befuddled and confused orchestra, and feeds them and puts them up for the night. In the process, much low-key hilarity and mutual understanding occurs.

Not the greatest film ever made, but it's one of the few "can't we all just get along?" fantasies that isn't abrasive or unrealistic.

61 Golem Akbar  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:31:15am

Drive-by comment: Charles, you are so right.
bbl

62 kynna  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:31:22am

re: #55 Baier

"Yo Rahm. In meetn w/leadr of joos. I h8 u peeps"

ROFLMAO

63 albusteve  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:31:25am

re: #49 Sabnen

Watching the "Peace Process" in the Middle East go on and on and on, around and around and around, for years and years and years, is like watching a hamster run on its' exercise wheel. What's the point?

Yes, I know the hamster gets exercise, but this Middle East "Peace Process," in its' present form, is leaving everyone brain dead. Nothing new hear.

the point is to wear down Israel and her allies..it's working, obviously, judging from the spectacular rise of totally unfounded anti-Semetism around the world

64 abolitionist  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:31:53am
The so-called peace process in the Middle East has absolutely no chance of advancing until this bizarre denial of the fact of Arab rejectionism ceases. It doesn’t matter how many concessions Israel makes, and it doesn’t matter whether settlements keep expanding or whether they’re completely eliminated. The agenda of the Arab states is the destruction of Israel; ...

Not laughable. It's maddeningly perverse. They think in terms of wealth, status, etc as a zero-sum game. This is the sad legacy of a caravan raider.

65 JPL17  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:31:57am

re: #29 JohnnyReb

Just my opinion, but I suspect that when Iran tests a Nuke the Pali problem will vanish overnight. I suspect that all the players will drop the Palis like a hot potato and concentrate on holding back Iran.

Except that the Iranians are arming Gaza, and will continue to do so after they test a nuke, maybe even more so. I don't think the problem's going away any time soon.

66 MJ  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:32:29am

The Clinton/Obama team of terrorist appeasers are trying to weasel out of US commitment to Israel. Here's th exchange from yesterday's press briefing:

QUESTION: Does the Obama Administration regard itself as bound by the contents of the letter that then-Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon received from President Bush in 2004?

MR. KELLY: That’s an excellent question, James, and I’ll get you the information on that.

QUESTION: Taken question?

MR. KELLY: Yeah, taken question.

Excellent question?
Fuck you.
This was the basis of the withdrawal from Gaza.
It contains explicit U.S. commitments to Israel regarding defensible borders and the Roadmap, and formal U.S. recognition of certain “realities” regarding settlement blocks and refugees. The letter was endorsed by a resolution of Congress.

So the answer for the Jew-hating Obama and Clinton is YES- the Obama Administration is bound by this letter.

67 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:32:41am

re: #39 davinvalkri

Sad ain't it, since most of the Palestinians are (ethnically or culturally? can't remember which) close to Jordan in nature. It'd be a perfect fit. Agh.

Both. But Jordan has treated the Palestinians very badly, and will NOT take them in in any large numbers. If they would, I'd say it was easy.

Unfortunately, being ethnically and culturally similar has never ensured that people will treat one another nicely.

68 [deleted]  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:34:31am
69 Last Mohican  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:34:31am

I believe it was less than a month ago when Abbas said he would never recognize a Jewish state, wasn't it?

70 Sabnen  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:34:47am

re: #63 albusteve

I think you are right. The two are related.

71 MJ  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:34:50am

re: #51 yma o hyd

But:
Israel rebuffs Hillary Clinton's call for halt in West Bank settlements

From that link:
'Israel’s new right-wing government was set for its first stand-off with the Obama Administration today, after it openly rebuffed a call from Washington to a total freeze on all Jewish settlements in the West Bank.'

And:
'A spokesman for Mr Netanyahu – who clashed with then president Bill Clinton when he was prime minister in the late 1990s – said that permission would be given to continue construction in existing settlements, some of which are sprawling towns built in the four decades that Israel has occupied the West Bank.
“Normal life in those communities must be allowed to continue,” said spokesman Mark Regev.'

Yeah, saw that. Let's hope it will continue but I don't hold out much hope for Netanyahu. He bent over for Clinton so I'd expect him to do the same here.

72 davinvalkri  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:35:00am

re: #67 SanFranciscoZionist

Both. But Jordan has treated the Palestinians very badly, and will NOT take them in in any large numbers. If they would, I'd say it was easy.

Unfortunately, being ethnically and culturally similar has never ensured that people will treat one another nicely.

Bah...well that throws a wrench in my perfect Middle East plan...
1) Get the Arab leaders to STFU
2) Transplant "Palestinians" to Jordan
3) ?
4) Profit
Hey, why aren't we complaining to Jordan about Palestinian "right to return" if most of the Palestinians are culturally from Jordan...?

73 pat  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:35:05am

The idea that this two bit dictator has any real influence over other Arab States is ludicrous.

74 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:35:06am

re: #27 Baier

I disagree with you. Israeli policy is a handy way to be openly antisemitic. The Arabs need us to buy oil too much.


Which is why we can dance the other side and have supported Israel more or less for so long. I agree it is getting less.

But as a thought question... Suppose we did not need oil. Suppose Europe didn't need it either. Now suppose that the Islamists and the Arab states continued to play the same shenanigans. How long do you think it would take for people to begin to notice the head choppingness of these regimes and their support of all sorts of things we would normally despise?

Suppose no one needed them and Israel really did cut loose militarily? Would there be as much outcry as there is for Darfur? (Not that Israelis would go that far, G-d forbid). If the poor black Christians being slaughtered in Darfur had something the West wanted, our news would be full of our "righteous crusade" to save them. But they don't so we let them die at the hands of Arabs who do have something we need.

Nope, the end of the day comes down to oil. I am not debating that there aren't tons and tons of other factors. I am not trying to take the complexities of the situation away for an instant. However, much like we could discuss the many causes and factors of the Civil War ad-nauseum, it is impossible to not inevitably come back to slavery, the slave economy, and the lifestyle and class system made possible by slavery.

Much as we can discuss anti-semitism, left leaning political movements and the rise of fascism - and all of that is true - none of it would matter if there was not oil. The typical Westerner would suddenly remember that (s)he thinks honor killings, state supported terror and medievalism are terrible things. Seriously it is like saying the Civil War was about States Rights - that is of course true - but they were fighting of the rights of those States to maintain their slave owning lifestyles and economies. Everything else was added rhetoric.

Same here with oil.

If we want to fix the ME, we need to stop needing oil.

75 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:35:41am

re: #69 Last Mohican

I believe it was less than a month ago when Abbas said he would never recognize a Jewish state, wasn't it?

He keeps repeating it.

76 Sharmuta  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:35:57am

I don't think there will be peace until the indoctrination of rabid anti-Semitism stops. The children are taught to hate Jews before anything else.

77 albusteve  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:36:01am

re: #69 Last Mohican

I believe it was less than a month ago when Abbas said he would never recognize a Jewish state, wasn't it?

oh, don't trot out that old news...that was a long time ago

78 Bob Dillon  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:36:33am

"Dealing honestly with this reality is the first step that needs to take place in any real peace process."

What is honesty? - reminds me of everyone being stoned at a party wanting a pizza - everyone has the munchies but no one can agree on the toppings.

As Bubblehead II points out - it ain't gonna happen ... probably never - sadly. Been going on for over 100 years now.

79 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:36:46am

re: #72 davinvalkri

Bah...well that throws a wrench in my perfect Middle East plan...
1) Get the Arab leaders to STFU
2) Transplant "Palestinians" to Jordan
3) ?
4) Profit
Hey, why aren't we complaining to Jordan about Palestinian "right to return" if most of the Palestinians are culturally from Jordan...?

Because we know we won't get anywhere. :)

80 davinvalkri  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:36:51am

re: #74 LudwigVanQuixote

There's always Alaska, and the continental shelf (?) and Texas, and Alberta, and...well, I'm also all for developing alternate energy to say "screw you" to the Sauds, but there are other places we could get the oil if we were willing.

81 MJ  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:37:00am

re: #76 Sharmuta

I don't think there will be peace until the indoctrination of rabid anti-Semitism stops. The children are taught to hate Jews before anything else.

You mean the indoctrination in Rev. Wright's Church?

82 Preposter S  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:37:00am

The Is-Pal "peace" charade is meaningless right now.

The NKorean situation has to be what is lighting up the diplomatic phone lines.

On the peninsula itself, war could break out at any moment. It is unclear what the Korean leadership wants; what is very clear is the Chinese and Russians are displeased with North Korea and its leader. The test bomb went off 100 miles from Vladivistok, Russia's main Pacific port.

Previous UN sanctions did not work on this regime; they are utterly lawless and their leadership's saber rattling indicates they are willing to get what they want and threaten nuclear war to get it. If the world caves in and meets their demands, it will just encourage them. But what gives anyone the right to risk entire cities in Asia?

So what to do? Probably the only answer is prepare for the worst, use diplomacy to attempt reasoning with these maniacs and hope our boneheaded VP doesn't say something so stupid Hiroshima gets nuked a second time.

The best plan is get US ABM capable ships surrounding North Korea and not start anything. The people best able to stand on North Korea's windpipe are the Chinese: Beijing must be wondering if Kim's gulag would fire a nuke at them. North Korea's recent behavior may have convinced the Chinese the Answer is yes. Once that happens, North Korea stops being a friend and ally to become a danger and an enemy. China does not like to be threatened.

North Korea would be crazy to attack, but they are crazy and may just start a war. A war US leadership is incapable of dealing with.

83 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:37:45am

re: #58 FurryOldGuyJeans

PFFFFFT! Spaghetti sauce.

Now diss my pasta sauce and there will be contention! ;)

Don't call my gravy "pasta sauce" and everything will be cool.

84 BatGuano  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:38:41am

Until Israel defeated the combined Arab nations in 1948, there was no such thing as a Palestinian. A Palestinian is an Arab that no Arab nation wants.

85 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:38:55am

re: #83 Who Watches the Watchmen?

Don't call my gravy "pasta sauce" and everything will be cool.

Now that I wouldn't dream of. ;)

86 Guanxi88  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:38:59am

re: #53 bosforus

Viccini vs. Ahmadinejad. Now that'd be fun.

re: #55 Baier

"Yo Rahm. In meetn w/leadr of joos. I h8 u peeps"

One of my dearest friends, a professor, and easily one of the greatest minds of the second half of the twentieth century, looked just like that guy, but sounded like Kissinger.

87 rhino2  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:38:59am

re: #69 Last Mohican

I believe it was less than a month ago when Abbas said he would never recognize a Jewish state, wasn't it?

If so that's exactly what I'm talking about in my #41. Let's just pretend he didn't say such things, and only listen to him when he claims he wants peace.

It's not a good tactic.

88 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:38:59am

re: #74 LudwigVanQuixote

...If we want to fix the ME, we need to stop needing oil.

If that was the case, we would have not much interest in supporting Israel or much interest in any of the politics in the middle east as long as the bullshit didn't spill over into the west.

We would issue harshly-worded letters, that's about it.

89 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:39:06am

re: #83 Who Watches the Watchmen?

Don't call my gravy "pasta sauce" and everything will be cool.

Is it sauce in the pot and gravy in the boat?

90 yma o hyd  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:39:54am

re: #71 MJ

Yeah, saw that. Let's hope it will continue but I don't hold out much hope for Netanyahu. He bent over for Clinton so I'd expect him to do the same here.

Iran was building nuclear weapons then, was it ...

91 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:39:59am

re: #80 davinvalkri

There's always Alaska, and the continental shelf (?) and Texas, and Alberta, and...well, I'm also all for developing alternate energy to say "screw you" to the Sauds, but there are other places we could get the oil if we were willing.

True, but not forever, and not enough to remove the China and Russia factor from the equation.

92 JohnnyReb  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:40:03am

re: #38 quickjustice

The Iranian grab for regional hegemony, best exemplified by its development of a nuclear weapon, has scared the Sunni Arabs. It may provide an opening for Israel to work with the Sunnis to foil Iranian ambitions.

We'll see how smart the Arabs are about their own self-interests.

As for oil, Pickens, among others, thinks that Saudi production has peaked, and that they have a ten-year supply left. In strategic terms, that's not much time.


Just as a heads up, Pickens has been saying the Saudi oil fields have about 10 years left for about the last 30 years.

93 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:40:07am

re: #84 BatGuano

Until Israel defeated the combined Arab nations in 1948, there was no such thing as a Palestinian. A Palestinian is an Arab that no Arab nation wants.

Unfortunately, too true. The Palestinians are the guys who got caught standing when the music ended and everyone sat down.

94 Baier  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:40:45am

re: #74 LudwigVanQuixote

I think you make a good point. Most situations that get bad like this are a combination of many factors. I was wrong to simplify it. If one of the factors was removed from the equation, then perhaps a satisfactory conclusion can be reached.

95 Lee Coller  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:40:58am

"Withdraw to the 1967 borders"? As Dennis Ross points out in his book, A Missing Peace, there isn't even agreement on where the 1967 borders with Syria are.

96 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:41:12am

re: #88 Walter L. Newton

If that was the case, we would have not much interest in supporting Israel or much interest in any of the politics in the middle east as long as the bullshit didn't spill over into the west.

We would issue harshly-worded letters, that's about it.

True, and then if the Israelis were allowed to stand for themselves the issue would be settled militarily, like it was in any other war of establishment.

97 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:41:55am

re: #82 Preposter S

...North Korea would be crazy to attack, but they are crazy and may just start a war. A war US leadership is incapable of dealing with.

Korea is looking for a small-scaled war. They need help, they need money, they need food, and they are trying to rattle enough cages, push just enough to case a breakout of fighting, loose and then get their Marshall Plan worked up for the restoration of the country.

98 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:42:18am

re: #95 Lee Coller

"Withdraw to the 1967 borders"? As Dennis Ross points out in his book, A Missing Peace, there isn't even agreement on where the 1967 borders with Syria are.

The 1967 borders are more a state of mind than an actual set of borders...

99 Sharmuta  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:43:18am

re: #81 MJ

The indoctrination that we've seen exposed here for years. The little "kindergarten" shows and the hamas mouse and bee and rabbit. The little children praising their "martyred" mother. Really sick stuff to teach children.

100 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:43:19am

re: #35 yma o hyd

Christians have lied till the cows came home, and will go on lying - but it is not 'sanctioned' by their religion, to the contrary!

Since the thread moving kind of slow I thought I'd ask - what do you mean by this? This sounds as though maybe you think it's only Christians that lie?

101 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:43:47am

I bet after President Hopeinchange and Abbas get out of their meeting they with both have ear to ear grins.

102 Sabnen  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:43:50am

re: #37 lawhawk

I believe that Israel can and would give up the West Bank in the name of peace, but even that wouldn't be enough since the Palestinians demand Jerusalem as well. That's a nonstarter, and until such time that the world recognizes Israel's right to Jerusalem, this conflict continues.

I still think Jerusalem should belong to no one. An international city. Swiss guards all around. Home base to religious think tanks from all the faiths.

103 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:43:56am

re: #97 Walter L. Newton

Korea is looking for a small-scaled war. They need help, they need money, they need food, and they are trying to rattle enough cages, push just enough to case a breakout of fighting, loose and then get their Marshall Plan worked up for the restoration of the country.

Well, if they're trying to do a Grand Fenwick, they should just say so.

104 pink freud  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:44:37am

Yesterday Drudge had up in red top left the link to the photos of stoner-0bama. They were removed rather quickly. Today, not only can they not be found anywhere in his opening-page offerings, but a search of his archives turns up zip, nada. LOL

105 davinvalkri  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:45:06am

re: #103 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, if they're trying to do a Grand Fenwick, they should just say so.

Mouse that Roared, right?

106 Ward Cleaver  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:45:13am

re: #84 BatGuano

Until Israel defeated the combined Arab nations in 1948, there was no such thing as a Palestinian. A Palestinian is an Arab that no Arab nation wants.

It's because the Palis are such troublemakers wherever they go. Ingrates.

107 P. Aaron  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:45:20am

Let's ask Colin Powell what his honest opion of this developement is.

I am sure we'll get a thoughtful, concise and well articluated position on this touchy subject.

108 Cato the Elder  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:45:55am

Palestinian "refugees" are legally not able to become citizens many (any?) Arab States.

First step if the Arab States are serious:

Offer immediate and full citizenship to any second-generation (or later) Palestinian "refugees" who want it.

Hey, presto! Large percentage of your "right of return" demand eliminated by the stroke of a pen.

109 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:46:34am

re: #102 Sabnen

I believe that Israel can and would give up the West Bank in the name of peace, but even that wouldn't be enough since the Palestinians demand Jerusalem as well. That's a nonstarter, and until such time that the world recognizes Israel's right to Jerusalem, this conflict continues.

I still think Jerusalem should belong to no one. An international city. Swiss guards all around. Home base to religious think tanks from all the faiths.

I have no objection to the think tanks, but strong ones to 'international city' status.

110 rhino2  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:46:51am

re: #106 Ward Cleaver

It's because the Palis are such troublemakers wherever they go. Ingrates.

Wanting the complete genocide of a nation, and openly trying to make that happen, tend to make you a 'troublemaker'.

111 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:47:02am

Ace of Spades has a post up today calling Sonia Sotomayor a "pin-headed retard brain."

The right-wing blogosphere is going nuts.

112 Guanxi88  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:47:07am

re: #102 Sabnen

I believe that Israel can and would give up the West Bank in the name of peace, but even that wouldn't be enough since the Palestinians demand Jerusalem as well. That's a nonstarter, and until such time that the world recognizes Israel's right to Jerusalem, this conflict continues.

I still think Jerusalem should belong to no one. An international city. Swiss guards all around. Home base to religious think tanks from all the faiths.

Why not do the same with Philadelphia, PA? Free-market and limited government and rule of law think tanks from all...

113 Cato the Elder  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:47:15am

re: #108 Cato the Elder

PIMF "in many"

114 Ward Cleaver  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:47:22am

re: #100 unrealizedviewpoint

Since the thread moving kind of slow I thought I'd ask - what do you mean by this? This sounds as though maybe you think it's only Christians that lie?

She's pointing out that lying is considered a sin by Christians, whereas it's not in islam (i.e., taqiyyah and kitman).

115 Orangutan  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:47:30am

I try to imagine everything these so-called concessioneers say is delivered in the voice of Dryden from Lawrence of Arabia. It's not a stretch, I admit.

116 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:47:40am

re: #102 Sabnen

I believe that Israel can and would give up the West Bank in the name of peace, but even that wouldn't be enough since the Palestinians demand Jerusalem as well. That's a nonstarter, and until such time that the world recognizes Israel's right to Jerusalem, this conflict continues.

I still think Jerusalem should belong to no one. An international city. Swiss guards all around. Home base to religious think tanks from all the faiths.

It is not yours to give away or think that way about.

I care that other people think the city of my ancestors is holy. I care about that enough to protect their holy sites and their freedom of religious expression.

However, you would not even consider telling the Brits to give up London, or America to give up Philadelphia just because others were attached to those cities too.

The claim that others find it holy is a non-starter. It is not theirs. It never was theirs.

117 Cato the Elder  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:47:49am

re: #111 Charles

Ace of Spades has a post up today calling Sonia Sotomayor a "pin-headed retard brain."

The right-wing blogosphere is going nuts.

Not just nuts. Regression to kindergarten nuts.

118 davinvalkri  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:47:58am

re: #111 Charles

Ace of Spades has a post up today calling Sonia Sotomayor a "pin-headed retard brain."

The right-wing blogosphere is going nuts.

Oh come on. There are legitimate objections to her nomination, but that's just juvenile.

119 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:48:09am

re: #111 Charles

Ace of Spades has a post up today calling Sonia Sotomayor a "pin-headed retard brain."

The right-wing blogosphere is going nuts.

That is becoming as predictable as the sunrise, the right-wing learned the insanity lessons well from the last 8 years.

120 Lee Coller  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:48:15am

re: #111 Charles

Ace of Spades has a post up today calling Sonia Sotomayor a "pin-headed retard brain."

The right-wing blogosphere is going nuts.

So much for any fantasy that the right is different than the left. Plenty of immature children on both sides.

121 insanity police  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:48:30am

re: #102 Sabnen

I believe that Israel can and would give up the West Bank in the name of peace, but even that wouldn't be enough since the Palestinians demand Jerusalem as well. That's a nonstarter, and until such time that the world recognizes Israel's right to Jerusalem, this conflict continues.

I still think Jerusalem should belong to no one. An international city. Swiss guards all around. Home base to religious think tanks from all the faiths.

You'd have to take it from our cold dead hands.

122 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:48:51am

re: #105 davinvalkri

Mouse that Roared, right?

Yup. God, I love Peter Sellers.

123 rhino2  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:48:51am

re: #111 Charles

Ace of Spades has a post up today calling Sonia Sotomayor a "pin-headed retard brain."

The right-wing blogosphere is going nuts.

I used to listen to Rush everyday, had a rather large blogroll I read, it's sad how far people have gone since loosing the election.

124 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:48:59am

re: #111 Charles

Ace of Spades has a post up today calling Sonia Sotomayor a "pin-headed retard brain."

The right-wing blogosphere is going nuts.

That's stupid and insulting. I think racist sums her up nicely.

125 allan5oh  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:49:14am

I'm sure one of their conditions will be the "creation of a Palestinian state". Of course, Jordan IS that state.

126 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:49:33am

re: #122 SanFranciscoZionist

Yup. God, I love Peter Sellers.

Being There is one of the best political satires of all time.

127 yma o hyd  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:49:45am

For me, its quite clear that the continuous 'Peace Process' between israel and the rest of the Arab world is down to one thing only.
That is the Jew Hate which is not only prevalent in Arab countries, never mind the Palestinians, but also to a greater or lesser extent in the countries trying to get this peace deal done.

When the sri Lankans put paid to the Tamil Tigers, the usual howls of 'war crimes' etc were heard from the usual suspects - and the UNHRC had a session about it.

This is what happened:
Sri Lanka forces West to retreat over ‘war crimes’ with victory at UN

Put 'Israel' for 'Sri Lanka' - and does anybody here seriously think that the outcome would have been the same, if Israel had decimated Hamas in teh same way as Sri Lanka decimated the Tamil Tigers?

Thought not ...

128 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:49:54am

re: #98 SanFranciscoZionist

The 1967 borders are more a state of mind than an actual set of borders...

"1967 borders" is code for "shrivel up and die."

129 Guanxi88  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:49:58am

re: #126 FurryOldGuyJeans

Being There is one of the best political satires of all time.

You're soaking in it right now. (Madge, Palmolive)

130 lawhawk  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:50:09am

re: #124 Walter L. Newton

Ah, I see you're going for the pithy quip.

131 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:50:23am

re: #124 Walter L. Newton

That's stupid and insulting. I think racist sums her up nicely.


She is a member of the anti-white hate group La Raza.

132 BatGuano  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:50:52am

What is the Ace of Spades and what is the "right wing" blogoshere? I'm missing a lot.

133 Macker  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:51:01am

re: #111 Charles

Ace of Spades has a post up today calling Sonia Sotomayor a "pin-headed retard brain."

The right-wing blogosphere is going nuts.

There are ways to oppose Judge Sotomayor other than stooping to call her names. She's already attacked Justices Ginsburg and O'Connor, and then there's her 60% overturn rate.
Ace is stupid.

134 Bob Dillon  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:51:03am

re: #97 Walter L. Newton

Korea is looking for a small-scaled war. They need help, they need money, they need food, and they are trying to rattle enough cages, push just enough to case a breakout of fighting, loose and then get their Marshall Plan worked up for the restoration of the country.

Worked well for Germany and Japan.

135 zombie  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:51:23am

re: #111 Charles

Ace of Spades has a post up today calling Sonia Sotomayor a "pin-headed retard brain."

OK, I had to go check that out. And not only is the title a disaster ("Top Ten Other Qualifications and Rich Life Experiences of Pin-Headed Retard-Brain Sonia Sotomayor"), I couldn't even figure out the humor in the post itself. For example,

"4. Sometimes gets her legal opinions confused with her Mad Libs; she recently decided the case of Awesome Sparkle Princess v. Smelly Bananafarts."

What? Has everybody taken the brown acid? What am I missing here?

136 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:51:39am

re: #108 Cato the Elder

Palestinian "refugees" are legally not able to become citizens many (any?) Arab States.

First step if the Arab States are serious:

Offer immediate and full citizenship to any second-generation (or later) Palestinian "refugees" who want it.

Hey, presto! Large percentage of your "right of return" demand eliminated by the stroke of a pen.

Only thing I will ever give Saddam any credit for--he did take in some Palestinian families. This fails to outbalance thirty-some years of homicidal dictatorship, to put it mildly, but he does get some small points for putting his money where his mouth was.

137 Sharmuta  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:51:45am

re: #132 BatGuano

What is the Ace of Spades and what is the "right wing" blogoshere? I'm missing a lot.

Actually- you're missing very little.

138 Ward Cleaver  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:51:48am

re: #111 Charles

Ace of Spades has a post up today calling Sonia Sotomayor a "pin-headed retard brain."

The right-wing blogosphere is going nuts.

Is he letting a fourteen-year-old write under his byline now? I just read that top ten, and I just can't imagine an adult writing something like that.

139 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:51:49am

re: #127 yma o hyd

For me, its quite clear that the continuous 'Peace Process' between israel and the rest of the Arab world is down to one thing only.
That is the Jew Hate which is not only prevalent in Arab countries, never mind the Palestinians, but also to a greater or lesser extent in the countries trying to get this peace deal done.

When the sri Lankans put paid to the Tamil Tigers, the usual howls of 'war crimes' etc were heard from the usual suspects - and the UNHRC had a session about it.

This is what happened:
Sri Lanka forces West to retreat over ‘war crimes’ with victory at UN

Put 'Israel' for 'Sri Lanka' - and does anybody here seriously think that the outcome would have been the same, if Israel had decimated Hamas in teh same way as Sri Lanka decimated the Tamil Tigers?

Thought not ...

That is because of the oil. Yes they hate us. Take oil from the Arabs though and the Euros will hate them too.

140 yitzy  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:51:54am

Was listening to Air America here in NYC a few days ago when then host asked the open question "What do you fear most in today's world?". Couldn't believe it when a couple of callers said they feared "Israel" because of their "nuclear stockpile and destabilizing effect in the Middle East". Oh brother.

I was equally shocked when the host just took them at face value, and didn't give even a hint of rebuttal or objection of any kind. Oy, my head hurts.

141 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:51:59am

re: #129 Guanxi88

You're soaking in it right now. (Madge, Palmolive)

I wish it was strictly satire. Reality is never funny.

142 Guanxi88  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:52:01am

re: #132 BatGuano

What is the Ace of Spades and what is the "right wing" blogoshere? I'm missing a lot.

No, you're not.

143 yma o hyd  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:52:21am

re: #100 unrealizedviewpoint

Since the thread moving kind of slow I thought I'd ask - what do you mean by this? This sounds as though maybe you think it's only Christians that lie?

No, thats not what I meant - but being a Christian, I refrained from naming any of the other big Religions.
I know that I lied, and regret it, striving not to do so again.
And i do know that lying is not sanctioned by any Shristian dogma.

144 pink freud  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:52:29am

re: #135 zombie

OK, I had to go check that out. And not only is the title a disaster ("Top Ten Other Qualifications and Rich Life Experiences of Pin-Headed Retard-Brain Sonia Sotomayor"), I couldn't even figure out the humor in the post itself. For example,

"4. Sometimes gets her legal opinions confused with her Mad Libs; she recently decided the case of Awesome Sparkle Princess v. Smelly Bananafarts."

What? Has everybody taken the brown acid? What am I missing here?

The Inner-Children have been set free to run and play.

145 Sharmuta  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:52:29am

re: #142 Guanxi88

GMTA

146 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:52:36am

re: #114 Ward Cleaver

She's pointing out that lying is considered a sin by Christians, whereas it's not in islam (i.e., taqiyyah and kitman).

I guess...Out of that exact context. Yikes!

147 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:52:37am

re: #136 SanFranciscoZionist

Only thing I will ever give Saddam any credit for--he did take in some Palestinian families. This fails to outbalance thirty-some years of homicidal dictatorship, to put it mildly, but he does get some small points for putting his money where his mouth was.

Of course, Saddam's money was going to the families of homicide bombers.

148 lawhawk  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:52:50am

re: #102 Sabnen

Ah, the Sum of All Fears approach. Yeah, it might have worked in 1948, but the Arab world rejected that, and everything since. There's no reason to revisit it now, not when Jerusalem has lawful right to the entirety of the West Bank, Gaza, and the Golan under its rights as a sovereign state to conquer and hold territory captured in war - UN SCR 242 and 338 notwithstanding (after all, land for peace doesn't mean Israel has to return all the land). Besides, who is it returning land to. It gave Gaza to the Palestinians, who promptly started a war from it. No reason for Israel to try that experiment again, though they will be pressured into doing so.

149 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:52:51am

re: #131 NJDhockeyfan

She is a member of the anti-white hate group La Raza.

That's the third time today I've read that here. Where's the proof?

150 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:53:21am

re: #130 lawhawk

Ah, I see you're going for the pithy quip.

She has had judicial decisions which indicate a racial preference (as in the fireman case), she has made pronouncement from the bench that she feels the law is not fair to minorities when she has to give them a sentence that is mandated for all convicted of that same crime and she has made outright claims about here Latina heritage giving her some sort of advantage over other judges.

No, I'm going for facts.

151 rhino2  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:53:28am

re: #140 yitzy

Was listening to Air America here in NYC a few days ago when then host asked the open question "What do you fear most in today's world?". Couldn't believe it when a couple of callers said they feared "Israel" because of their "nuclear stockpile and destabilizing effect in the Middle East". Oh brother.

I was equally shocked when the host just took them at face value, and didn't give even a hint of rebuttal or objection of any kind. Oy, my head hurts.

On Air America? Sounds about right, if not a little underwhelming compared to what I'd expect from that source.

152 P. Aaron  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:53:38am

re: #111 Charles

Ace of Spades has a post up today calling Sonia Sotomayor a "pin-headed retard brain."

The right-wing blogosphere is going nuts.

Whereas the moderates...they stay heroically moderate. While the left trounces them.

But don't be critical of the left, you might upset them. It may make Colin Powell vote...democrat!

153 Cato the Elder  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:53:38am

re: #136 SanFranciscoZionist

Only thing I will ever give Saddam any credit for--he did take in some Palestinian families. This fails to outbalance thirty-some years of homicidal dictatorship, to put it mildly, but he does get some small points for putting his money where his mouth was.

Did he actually grant them Iraqi citizenship? I didn't know that.

154 Dianna  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:53:58am

re: #111 Charles

Ace of Spades has a post up today calling Sonia Sotomayor a "pin-headed retard brain."

The right-wing blogosphere is going nuts.

Ace writes humor; I'm not entirely sure he isn't mocking some of the reaction, if that's Ace himself.

155 Lee Coller  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:54:31am

re: #152 P. Aaron

Are you defending Ace of Spades?

156 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:54:51am

re: #149 Who Watches the Watchmen?

That's the third time today I've read that here. Where's the proof?

American Bar Association website.

In addition to her work on the bench, Judge Sotomayor is an adjunct professor at New York University School of Law and a lecturer-in-law at Columbia Law School. She is a member of the American Bar Association, the New York Women’s Bar Association, the Puerto Rican Bar Association, the Hispanic National Bar Association, the Association of Judges of Hispanic Heritage, and the National Council of La Raza. She has received many honors including, most recently, an award from the National Association of Women Lawyers.

157 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:54:52am

re: #143 yma o hyd

No, thats not what I meant - but being a Christian, I refrained from naming any of the other big Religions.
I know that I lied, and regret it, striving not to do so again.
And i do know that lying is not sanctioned by any Shristian dogma.

Beaver's dad set me straight.

158 Bob Dillon  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:55:29am

re: #131 NJDhockeyfan

She is a member of the anti-white hate group La Raza.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

The Truth About 'La Raza'
humanevents.com

Interesting take.

159 Mad Mullah  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:55:56am

Somebody should tell the deluded and miserable Arab-Muslim countries that there are no such things as mulligans in war. They lost, they should stop whining and just get over it - otherwise Israel is going to have another can of whoop ass ready for them which is going to be far more potent than the previous cans were.

Israel has already given away far too much. All the evidence and facts show that the people they are dealing with are bat shit insane and they have zero intentions of any peace.

160 Sharmuta  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:56:00am

re: #154 Dianna

Ace writes humor; I'm not entirely sure he isn't mocking some of the reaction, if that's Ace himself.

He's no Iowahawk.

161 yma o hyd  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:56:06am

re: #143 yma o hyd

No, thats not what I meant - but being a Christian, I refrained from naming any of the other big Religions.
I know that I lied, and regret it, striving not to do so again.
And i do know that lying is not sanctioned by any Shristian dogma.

Oh PIMF!

Thats 'Christian' - I think I'll switch the auto-button off ...

(Hides under the table in shame ...)

162 debutaunt  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:56:13am

re: #135 zombie

OK, I had to go check that out. And not only is the title a disaster ("Top Ten Other Qualifications and Rich Life Experiences of Pin-Headed Retard-Brain Sonia Sotomayor"), I couldn't even figure out the humor in the post itself. For example,

"4. Sometimes gets her legal opinions confused with her Mad Libs; she recently decided the case of Awesome Sparkle Princess v. Smelly Bananafarts."

What? Has everybody taken the brown acid? What am I missing here?

It turns out that there is an even deeper end to go off.

163 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:56:35am

re: #125 allan5oh

I'm sure one of their conditions will be the "creation of a Palestinian state". Of course, Jordan IS that state.

Practically, it isn't, though, because we've got a lot of actual Palestinians who can't get in.

164 lostlakehiker  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:56:46am

re: #18 LudwigVanQuixote

Reality is in short supply.

Diplomacy is now and always has been based on convenient fictions. It is currently convenient politically and economically, since the Arabs have oil, I mean really, would anyone give a damn what they said if they didn't, to pretend that the emperor has no clothes.

This will obtain until we get off of oil.

There is no other way. If we want real peace in the middle east we have to develop alternative energy sources.

The population of Saudi Arabia today is some 29 million. There's been a huge run up in that number and it's ongoing; 38% of those are 0-14. So you have an exponentially increasing population fed by purchases of food from abroad, paid for with money from the extraction of a finite resource that's running low.

Saudi Arabia has to get on the solar energy bandwagon before the oil wagon runs dry. They couldn't feed themselves by conquering Israel even if that were militarily feasible. They can't get on the solar energy bandwagon without some technical assistance; cutting edge physics is not their strong suit. They need a partner, preferably a local partner with experience in solar energy and a feel for cultural nuances of the middle east.

Israel.

165 yitzy  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:57:11am

Ooops. Forgot the disclaimer: I only listen to Air America for as much as I can tolerate just to see if they make ANY valid points (none so far...or nearly so) and mostly during the commercials in Limbaugh's, Hannity's, and Levine's shows.

166 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:57:37am

re: #136 SanFranciscoZionist

Only thing I will ever give Saddam any credit for--he did take in some Palestinian families. This fails to outbalance thirty-some years of homicidal dictatorship, to put it mildly, but he does get some small points for putting his money where his mouth was.

Maybe these were families of suicide bombers?
$25K and/or transplant to Iraq.

167 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:57:48am

re: #127 yma o hyd

For me, its quite clear that the continuous 'Peace Process' between israel and the rest of the Arab world is down to one thing only.
That is the Jew Hate which is not only prevalent in Arab countries, never mind the Palestinians, but also to a greater or lesser extent in the countries trying to get this peace deal done.

When the sri Lankans put paid to the Tamil Tigers, the usual howls of 'war crimes' etc were heard from the usual suspects - and the UNHRC had a session about it.

This is what happened:
Sri Lanka forces West to retreat over ‘war crimes’ with victory at UN

Put 'Israel' for 'Sri Lanka' - and does anybody here seriously think that the outcome would have been the same, if Israel had decimated Hamas in teh same way as Sri Lanka decimated the Tamil Tigers?

Thought not ...

The world did seem quite able to deal with the horror of civilians caught in that war zone. Alice Walker didn't even visit them.

168 Fat Jolly Penguin  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:58:05am

re: #131 NJDhockeyfan

She is a member of the anti-white hate group La Raza.

Linky plz? Not that I don't believe you, just for proof.

169 Cato the Elder  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:58:36am

re: #165 yitzy

Ooops. Forgot the disclaimer: I only listen to Air America for as much as I can tolerate just to see if they make ANY valid points (none so far...or nearly so) and mostly during the commercials in Limbaugh's, Hannity's, and Levine's shows.

And you see Rush, Sean and Mark as reliable guides to the truth?

Hmm.

170 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:58:43am

re: #128 Who Watches the Watchmen?

"1967 borders" is code for "shrivel up and die."

Well, that's the state of mind! ;)

171 pink freud  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:58:45am

re: #156 NJDhockeyfan


Who watches the watchmen:
This link
was also provided yesterday in-thread ...not LaRaza.. but another activist group she belonged to.

172 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:59:12am

re: #167 SanFranciscoZionist

The world did seem quite able to deal with the horror of civilians caught in that war zone. Alice Walker didn't even visit them.

Sri Lankans are not Jewish. That trumps all other considerations.

173 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:59:13am

re: #156 NJDhockeyfan
Indeed™.

174 yitzy  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:59:15am

Hey, what's the little "Auto" box to the left of the New Comments button do? Should I trust it?

175 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:59:21am

re: #168 Fat Jolly Penguin

Linky plz? Not that I don't believe you, just for proof.

See my link at #156 to the American Bar Association.

176 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:59:22am

re: #168 Fat Jolly Penguin

Linky plz? Not that I don't believe you, just for proof.

[Link: www.abanet.org...]

177 Dianna  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:59:26am

re: #135 zombie

Ace is being silly and having fun. He's mocking the pointless "Top Ten" lists from David Letterman. He's also mocking the reactions of a lot of bloggers.

It's something of a staple of Ace's. Yeah, it's frat boy humor. Sometimes, it's hysterical, a lot of the time, it's just silly.

178 yma o hyd  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:59:35am

re: #164 lostlakehiker

The population of Saudi Arabia today is some 29 million. There's been a huge run up in that number and it's ongoing; 38% of those are 0-14. So you have an exponentially increasing population fed by purchases of food from abroad, paid for with money from the extraction of a finite resource that's running low.

Saudi Arabia has to get on the solar energy bandwagon before the oil wagon runs dry. They couldn't feed themselves by conquering Israel even if that were militarily feasible. They can't get on the solar energy bandwagon without some technical assistance; cutting edge physics is not their strong suit. They need a partner, preferably a local partner with experience in solar energy and a feel for cultural nuances of the middle east.

Israel.


Indeed - and a partner who has some experience in what is called 'making the desert bloom' ...

Israel.

But then, none are so blind as those who do not want to see.

179 pat  Thu, May 28, 2009 10:59:38am

Well she is not a pin head. In fact she is very smart. You didn't make Yale Law Review in her day because you were elected. You earned it. But she is a racist and sexist ideologue. And she is surprisingly ignorant of American history and science.

180 Fat Jolly Penguin  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:00:03am

re: #175 NJDhockeyfan

See my link at #156 to the American Bar Association.

Oh, thanks. I missed that somehow.

181 Bob Dillon  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:00:06am

re: #168 Fat Jolly Penguin

Linky plz? Not that I don't believe you, just for proof.

Do you ever check the links above? Just curious.

182 Dianna  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:00:10am

re: #162 debutaunt

It turns out that there is an even deeper end to go off.

Will everyone stop leaping to conclusions? This is Ace! He's mocking everyone.

183 Ward Cleaver  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:00:16am

re: #154 Dianna

Ace writes humor; I'm not entirely sure he isn't mocking some of the reaction, if that's Ace himself.

He should make it clear then.

Reading through the comments, David Frum didn't like it (I assume this is really him):

5 I condemn this post and all associated with it.

Posted by: David Frum at May 27, 2009 07:57 PM (MMC8r)

184 Cato the Elder  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:00:27am

Here comes the La Raza slander again.

185 BatGuano  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:00:48am

re: #174 yitzy

Hey, what's the little "Auto" box to the left of the New Comments button do? Should I trust it?

If you check it, puppies will die.

186 Fat Jolly Penguin  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:01:00am

re: #176 Walter L. Newton

[Link: www.abanet.org...]

Thanks!

187 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:01:21am

re: #174 yitzy

Hey, what's the little "Auto" box to the left of the New Comments button do? Should I trust it?

Check the box, think 'real hard' and your comment will automatically appear.
/Spellcheck not automatic though.

188 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:01:29am

re: #147 Kosh's Shadow

Of course, Saddam's money was going to the families of homicide bombers.

Oh, yes, indeed.

189 yma o hyd  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:01:39am

re: #172 FurryOldGuyJeans

Sri Lankans are not Jewish. That trumps all other considerations.

Yep - and the Tamil Tigers weren't Palis ...
(Not that there was a huge difference between them, regarding the 30 years of war, terror, suicide bombings etc etc etc ...)

190 pink freud  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:01:48am

re: #185 BatGuano

If you check it, puppies will die.

Be. Very. Askeered.

Hi BatGuano! :-)

191 Sand Panda  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:01:49am

re: #164 lostlakehiker

This is a great idea; pity that it's never going to happen.

192 Cato the Elder  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:01:52am

re: #182 Dianna

Will everyone stop leaping to conclusions? This is Ace! He's mocking everyone.

Thinking about the comment, you may be right. It's too juvenile to be serious. Like calling Obama a "poopy head".

193 [deleted]  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:02:01am
194 debutaunt  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:02:21am

re: #174 yitzy

Hey, what's the little "Auto" box to the left of the New Comments button do? Should I trust it?

Do you need a haircut today?

195 Preposter S  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:02:28am

re: #97 Walter L. Newton

big assumptions on their part:

-they might win
-that, if they lose, the regime will be allowed to maintain power
-that China and Russians might deal with them using the delightfully non-western methods for which they are famous for using.
- that their regime won't collapse in any fight

The real question are whys:

why now?
why this way?
why they think this will work?
why are they doing this without any apparent escape hatch?

196 Dianna  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:02:52am

re: #160 Sharmuta

He's no Iowahawk.

I tend to like Ace. Iowahawk writes satire, and I frequently either 1) don't get it (I'm challenged on satire - and that was sarcasm); or 2) I don't think it's funny.

Ace, generally, I like. Every once in a while, I either don't get it, or think it's stupid, but usually, he makes me laugh.

197 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:03:02am

re: #153 Cato the Elder

Did he actually grant them Iraqi citizenship? I didn't know that.

I don't know. I do know that he settled them in Iraq and gave them some financial support.

It's not a great legacy, by any means, but I did find it rather interesting.

198 yma o hyd  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:03:14am

re: #185 BatGuano

If you check it, puppies hamsters will die.

FTFY!

199 Dianna  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:03:52am

re: #183 Ward Cleaver

You're kidding, right? Ace's readers know it's a joke. It's Ace's stock in trade.

200 Idle Drifter  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:03:52am

It is often perplexing and terrifying to gaze upon the world for the pure insanity that goes on and endorsed by supposed rational, intelligent people. Especially since I'm the one accused of being insane.

201 rhino2  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:04:37am

re: #193 Iron Fist

The problem is that to really wean ourselves off oil we need a breakthrough in technology. Wind won't do it, solar won't do it, even nuclear won't be enough to wean us off oil (and nuclear power will be fought tooth and nail by some of the people who say we need to get off oil).

No, we need a breakthrough of some sort. That breakthrough will probably come sometime, but I doubt anyone can accurately predict when that will be.

I had my hopes up for hydrogen, but that seems to be getting shot-down. I also believe weaning ourselves off of Middle Eastern oil is more important than weaning ourselves off oil altogether right now. It's ridiculous we won't drill for oil within our own borders more extensively than we do, and the majority of our oil already doesn't come from the ME, seems we could get off it altogether if we'd just drill.

202 Sabnen  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:05:08am

re: #148 lawhawk

Yes, the Sum of All Fears approach. I can see lines are deeply drawn in this holy land and I see no way out.

Dividing Jerusalem a la Berlin after WWII into the different enclaves? I see this is contrary to 'conquered and held territory,' but what of the different religious claims on different parts of Jerusalem?

203 BatGuano  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:05:48am

re: #190 pink freud

Hi Pink!

204 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:06:06am

re: #164 lostlakehiker

The population of Saudi Arabia today is some 29 million. There's been a huge run up in that number and it's ongoing; 38% of those are 0-14. So you have an exponentially increasing population fed by purchases of food from abroad, paid for with money from the extraction of a finite resource that's running low.

Saudi Arabia has to get on the solar energy bandwagon before the oil wagon runs dry. They couldn't feed themselves by conquering Israel even if that were militarily feasible. They can't get on the solar energy bandwagon without some technical assistance; cutting edge physics is not their strong suit. They need a partner, preferably a local partner with experience in solar energy and a feel for cultural nuances of the middle east.

Israel.

Well said

205 zombie  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:06:17am

re: #177 Dianna

Ace is being silly and having fun. He's mocking the pointless "Top Ten" lists from David Letterman. He's also mocking the reactions of a lot of bloggers.

It's something of a staple of Ace's. Yeah, it's frat boy humor. Sometimes, it's hysterical, a lot of the time, it's just silly.

It just went way over my head. I've never seen David Letterman, so I missed the reference. The rest of it is essentially incomprehensible to me.

206 [deleted]  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:06:24am
207 Dianna  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:06:48am

re: #184 Cato the Elder

Here comes the La Raza slander again.

Ah, Cato?

Look at this:

In addition to her work on the bench, Judge Sotomayor is an adjunct professor at New York University School of Law and a lecturer-in-law at Columbia Law School. She is a member of the American Bar Association, the New York Women’s Bar Association, the Puerto Rican Bar Association, the Hispanic National Bar Association, the Association of Judges of Hispanic Heritage, and the National Council of La Raza. She has received many honors including, most recently, an award from the National Association of Women Lawyers.

It's on her bio at abanet.

So how is this a slander?

208 Dianna  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:07:24am

re: #205 zombie

It just went way over my head. I've never seen David Letterman, so I missed the reference. The rest of it is essentially incomprehensible to me.

You'd have to read Ace a lot. I do, I think I'm one of his original readers.

209 yitzy  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:07:32am

re: #169 Cato the Elder

And you see Rush, Sean and Mark as reliable guides to the truth?

Hmm.

Not entirely, I listen with what I think is a discriminating mind. I think Mark is the smartest of the three, if you get past the yelling.

Where do you get your truth from?

210 Cato the Elder  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:08:00am

re: #207 Dianna

It's on her bio at abanet.

So how is this a slander?

Because the dismissal of La Raza as some kind of ultra-sinister group is a slander. See last night's thread, Charles's comments.

211 Cato the Elder  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:09:14am

re: #209 yitzy

Not entirely, I listen with what I think is a discriminating mind. I think Mark is the smartest of the three, if you get past the yelling.

Where do you get your truth from?

Many places. Not from the radio. Certainly not from yellers (or Gellers).

212 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:09:23am

re: #201 rhino2

I had my hopes up for hydrogen, but that seems to be getting shot-down. I also believe weaning ourselves off of Middle Eastern oil is more important than weaning ourselves off oil altogether right now. It's ridiculous we won't drill for oil within our own borders more extensively than we do, and the majority of our oil already doesn't come from the ME, seems we could get off it altogether if we'd just drill.

The only way hydrogen will be a fuel source is if we get fusion working.
And that has been 20 years away for the last 50 years.
Other than that, we either get hydrogen from fossil fuels at some expense (better to burn the fuel directly) or it takes MORE energy to extract it from sea water than we can get back with any chemical reaction.

213 Dianna  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:09:46am

re: #210 Cato the Elder

I've dealt with La Raza, and don't much like them.

214 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:09:54am

re: #202 Sabnen

Yes, the Sum of All Fears approach. I can see lines are deeply drawn in this holy land and I see no way out.

Dividing Jerusalem a la Berlin after WWII into the different enclaves? I see this is contrary to 'conquered and held territory,' but what of the different religious claims on different parts of Jerusalem?

That gives a different meaning to "tear down the wall", and not a good one.

215 Dianna  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:10:43am

re: #213 Dianna

I've dealt with La Raza, and don't much like them.

Gah! I hit post when I shouldn't have.

To continue: I wasn't on last night, and I don't know what was said.

216 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:11:01am

re: #202 Sabnen

Yes, the Sum of All Fears approach. I can see lines are deeply drawn in this holy land and I see no way out.

Dividing Jerusalem a la Berlin after WWII into the different enclaves? I see this is contrary to 'conquered and held territory,' but what of the different religious claims on different parts of Jerusalem?

What of them? Jews, Christians and Muslims are free to live in Jerusalem, and visit the holy sites of their religions. Istanbul contains some of the most important sites of Eastern Christianity, but no one suggests it should be an 'international city' because Greek Orthodox believers can't stand that a secular mostly Muslim government controls the area. (Except possibly Robert Spencer, but he's not exactly average.)

217 rhino2  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:11:53am

Thunderstorms are getting rather loud here in Raleigh (NC), gonna shut down since I haven't gotten that all-important battery backup yet, take it easy lizards.

218 Sabnen  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:12:06am

re: #214 Kosh's Shadow

That gives a different meaning to "tear down the wall", and not a good one.

I wouldn't want to tear down anything.

219 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:12:08am

re: #193 Iron Fist

The problem is that to really wean ourselves off oil we need a breakthrough in technology. Wind won't do it, solar won't do it, even nuclear won't be enough to wean us off oil (and nuclear power will be fought tooth and nail by some of the people who say we need to get off oil).

No, we need a breakthrough of some sort. That breakthrough will probably come sometime, but I doubt anyone can accurately predict when that will be.

Honestly there are numerous things we could be doing now.

Switching over to fission in the short term would be a giant start. Wind farms also actually do have tremendous potential. They are however intermittent power sources and we need to work on storage (batteries) to really make that go.

Bio Diesel also has the numbers work out well.

These are things we could begin to implement on large scale if we had the will to do so.

Our three main focusses of research should be:

1. Batteries with higher energy density and better storage and deep discharge capacity. My solid state friends tell me that this is actually a low hanging fruit. We really only need to get things improved by about a factor of two to make electric cars and wind farms really practical.

2. Better solar cells - this is also a low hanging fruit.

3. Nuclear Fusion for the long run. This has many technical difficulties associated with it and it is unclear how long it would take to get online. However, Controlled Fusion has never enjoyed the full research budget support it deserves either.

220 American Sabra  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:12:18am

re: #202 Sabnen

The Jews have always cared for the sacred sites of all relgions, neither denying access to anything or destroying anything. Jerusalem can only ever belong to the Jews. It is our city but we have no problems sharing.

Screw it. I think Sharon was right after all. Throw them all into Gaza and build a giant wall around it with no access to Israel. They can have it. Move the WB Arabs there. Let them live with Hamas. Let them develop the Mediterranean shore. They have an entire economy sitting right there. Or kill each other, whatever they prefer.

See how easy that is :)

221 DaddyG  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:12:51am

re: #192 Cato the Elder

Thinking about the comment, you may be right. It's too juvenile to be serious. Like calling Obama a "poopy head".

Don't do that the somwhat obscured service will visit your house and have a long talk with you. /

222 Colin Nelson  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:13:00am

Until and unless the officials speaking and acting for the Palestinians accept the right of the State of Israel to exist and to exist in peace, any and all efforts, whether called Oslo l or Oslo ll or Madrid, or The Road Map or any other high-sounding name, are doomed to failure.

As for Jordan's King Abdullah fronting this fantasy to curry favor with the Obamatron, I can only laugh. His worst nightmare is certainly a 'legitimate' Palestinian state, headed by Hamas, on his doorstep. Remember, Jordan is approximately 60% Palestinian.

As with all of these so-called Arab initiatives, it is all nudge, nudge, wink, wink.

History, for those who care, teaches us that no official entity representing the Palestinians has ever accepted and declared the right of Israel to exist and to exist in peace.

With new ally BHO in the White House, Hezballah in the north, Hamas in Gaza, Syria playing its usual role and Iran destabilizing and dividing the West, why on earth would the Palis (and Arabs) give up on their six decade (at a minimum) struggle to drive the Jews and Israel into the sea?

223 Cato the Elder  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:13:08am

re: #213 Dianna

I've dealt with La Raza, and don't much like them.

That's fine. I haven't.

If we go through the lists of memberships for every sitting justice, we might find something to object to in each of them.

Actually that would be an interesting exercise. Extend it to Congress, the Executive and state and local governments, and publish as a database.

Could be useful come voting time.

224 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:13:55am

re: #218 Sabnen

I wouldn't want to tear down anything.

I didn't think you would.

The only reason the Arabs didn't tear down the Western Wall is because the entire terrace behind it, with the two mosques, would come down as well.

And I think if they got control of Jerusalem again, they'd tear it down now, if they could blame the Jews.

225 Sand Panda  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:14:08am

re: #212 Kosh's Shadow

The only way hydrogen will be a fuel source is if we get fusion working.
And that has been 20 years away for the last 50 years.
Other than that, we either get hydrogen from fossil fuels at some expense (better to burn the fuel directly) or it takes MORE energy to extract it from sea water than we can get back with any chemical reaction.

Exactly - whenever I hear about a new scientific breakthrough being viable in x number of years, I always mentally add another several years for further research, another couple for dealing with any unforeseen setbacks, and finally another several on top of that to become economically viable on an everyday basis.

226 debutaunt  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:14:18am

re: #215 Dianna

Gah! I hit post when I shouldn't have.

To continue: I wasn't on last night, and I don't know what was said.

Apparently there is a new and improved La Raza.

227 DaddyG  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:14:23am

re: #210 Cato the Elder

Because the dismissal of La Raza as some kind of ultra-sinister group is a slander. See last night's thread, Charles's comments.


Didn't Ron Paul start La Raza? //

228 Cato the Elder  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:14:57am

re: #221 DaddyG

Don't do that the somwhat obscured service will visit your house and have a long talk with you. /

If I disappear for more than a few days, call around and see if you can get me a lawyer, mkay? ;^)

229 Idle Drifter  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:14:59am

re: #212 Kosh's Shadow

I believe there are certain Gen IV Nuclear Power Plant designs that could produce Hydrogen quite cheaply. I'm trying like hell right now to find the Popular Science (or Mechanics) article right now.

230 Cato the Elder  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:16:15am

re: #227 DaddyG

Didn't Ron Paul start La Raza? //

Nope. Just co-opted it for the rloveution.

231 Macker  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:16:25am

re: #185 BatGuano

If you check it, puppies will die.

I thought God will kill a kitten....

/snicker

232 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:17:01am

re: #229 Idle Drifter

I believe there are certain Gen IV Nuclear Power Plant designs that could produce Hydrogen quite cheaply. I'm trying like hell right now to find the Popular Science (or Mechanics) article right now.

Which makes hydrogen an energy storage medium, with nuclear power as the actual energy source. The nuclear plant puts X amount of energy in, we get X/2 out (less, actually) by reacting the hydrogen in a fuel cell.

233 Buck  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:17:09am

Abbas has to be worried for his life. He is on the wrong side of the 'push me pull me' llama. Hamas would kill him in a heartbeat. Hamas knows exactly what Arafat was (a homosexual) and they would like nothing more than to expose it to the entire muslim world. The only thing stopping them is that the "Israel killed Arafat" serves their purpose for now.

234 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:17:34am

re: #231 Macker

I thought God will kill a kitten....

/snicker

There used to be a T-shirt "Every time you can has, G-d kills a lolcat"

235 BatGuano  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:17:38am

re: #210 Cato the Elder

Charles? La Raza is racist.

236 Sand Panda  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:18:10am

re: #231 Macker

I thought God will kill a kitten....

/snicker

I thought that was supposed to happen every time somebody, uh, never mind...
/

237 Tamron  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:19:34am

Israel's 'SAMSON OPTION' nuclear deterrence program:

The 'Samson Option' is a term used to describe Israel’s alleged deterrence strategy of massive retaliation with nuclear weapons as a “last resort” against nations whose military attacks threaten its existence, and possibly against other targets as well. Israel refuses to admit it has nuclear weapons or to describe how it would use them, an official policy of nuclear ambiguity, also known as "nuclear opacity." This has made it difficult for anyone outside the Israeli government to definitively describe its true nuclear policy, while still allowing Israel to influence the perceptions, strategies and actions of other governments.
...

The original conception of the Samson Option was only as deterrence. According to US journalist Seymour Hersh and Israeli historian Avner Cohen, Israeli leaders like David Ben-Gurion, Shimon Peres, Levi Eshkol and Moshe Dayan coined the phrase in the mid-1960s. They named it after the Biblical figure Samson, who is said to have pushed apart the pillars of a Philistine temple, bringing down the roof and killing himself and thousands of Philistines who had gathered to see him humiliated. They contrasted it with ancient siege of Masada where 936 Jewish Sicarii greatly outnumbered by Roman legions committed mass suicide rather than be defeated and enslaved by the Romans.
...

As early as 1976, the CIA believed that Israel possessed 10 to 20 nuclear weapons. By 2002 it was estimated that the number had increased to between 75 and 200 thermonuclear weapons, each in the multiple-megaton range. Kenneth S. Brower has estimated as many as 400 nuclear weapons. These can be launched from land, sea and air. This gives Israel a second strike option even if much of the country is destroyed.

Although nuclear weapons were viewed as the ultimate guarantor of Israeli security, as early as the 1960s the country avoided building its military around them, instead pursuing absolute conventional superiority so as to forestall a last resort nuclear engagement.

Seymour Hersh writes that the "surprising victory of Menachem Begin's Likud Party in the May 1977 national elections...brought to power a government that was even more committed than Labor to the Samson Option and the necessity of an Israeli nuclear arsenal."

Louis René Beres, a professor of Political Science at Purdue University, chaired Project Daniel, a group advising Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, argues in that paper and elsewhere that the effective deterrence of the Samson Option would be increased by ending the policy of nuclear ambiguity. In a 2004 article he recommends Israel use the Samson Option threat to “support conventional preemptions” against enemy nuclear and non-nuclear assets because “without such weapons, Israel, having to rely entirely upon nonnuclear forces, might not be able to deter enemy retaliations for the Israeli preemptive strike.”

In 2003, Martin van Creveld, a professor of military history at Israel’s Hebrew University, thought that the Al-Aqsa Intifada then in progress threatened Israel's existence. Van Creveld was quoted in David Hirst's "The Gun and the Olive Branch" (2003) as saying "I consider it all hopeless at this point. ... We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that will happen, before Israel goes under." He quoted General Moshe Dayan: "Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother."

YIKES! Did you get that? "We have the capability to take the world down with us." It's a certainty that 200 or more multiple-megaton bombs touched off anywhere on the planet would indeed make it a bad day for ALL of us. Nothing would remain but a few scruffy cave-dwelling dog-eat-dog barbarians, like Planet of the Apes.

The 'SAMSON OPTION' is not an option at all, no matter how many virgins Dinnerjacket or Hamas think they're getting. We can't afford to play.
.

238 Laroon  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:19:47am

wow... so succinctly put. WHY is it that nearly no one understands this? To those of us in Israel, it is beyond obvious and very hard to understand how wires like AP put out this ridiculousness.

239 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:20:10am

Please watch the following about Jerusalem. This is an adaptation of Stanley Goldfoot's open letter.

It says it so much better than I could. If you get this, you get why the Pali demand for Jerusalem is a non-starter.

[Link: aish.com...]

240 Spare O'Lake  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:21:09am
241 Syrah  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:21:19am

re: #213 Dianna

I've dealt with La Raza, and don't much like them.

I have had dealings with them also.

I understand that they may claim to not be what they were. I have serious reservations. Leopards and spots . . .

242 Dianna  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:21:20am

re: #226 debutaunt

Apparently there is a new and improved La Raza.

Really?

That will come as a great surprise to the activists I've known.

243 Idle Drifter  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:24:11am

re: #232 Kosh's Shadow

Which makes hydrogen an energy storage medium, with nuclear power as the actual energy source. The nuclear plant puts X amount of energy in, we get X/2 out (less, actually) by reacting the hydrogen in a fuel cell.

Nothings perfect in this world and we have to follow the Laws of Physics. I did find this article:

Safe Nuclear Power and Green Hydrogen Fuel

Overall I think we would be getting more bang out of the buck as the cooling gas is hellium with the hydrogen being the by product from the process and a the nuclear energy produced would be more efficient going to the grid. The only problem about hydrogen is containment.

244 Sabnen  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:25:53am

re: #214 Kosh's Shadow

re: #216 SanFranciscoZionist

re: #220 American Sabra

Okay! Okay! I give up. I see your points. Keep things as they are.

245 Land Shark  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:26:38am

You nailed it, Charles. The Arabs want Israel gone, pure and simple. You can't have real peace if one side remains hell bent on wiping out the other. The Israelis have already bent over backwards to accommodate the other side, giving up land and all they get is more demands, as well as the usual lies and slander.

Until people start to call the Arab side on their complete refusal to accept Israel, nothing will change. Hell, even if the Arabs are called on it I don't believe anything will change.

246 Tamron  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:31:02am

re: #233 Buck

Abbas has to be worried for his life. He is on the wrong side of the 'push me pull me' llama. Hamas would kill him in a heartbeat. Hamas knows exactly what Arafat was (a homosexual) and they would like nothing more than to expose it to the entire muslim world. The only thing stopping them is that the "Israel killed Arafat" serves their purpose for now.


Check out this disgusting Arafat Kissing a Priest video.

Mindful of Jabba the Hut swapping spit with a Yeti....
.

247 Sabnen  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:31:06am

re: #239 LudwigVanQuixote

That was informative. I learn something new everyday here.

248 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:32:07am

re: #247 Sabnen

You are welcome

249 lawhawk  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:36:49am

re: #202 Sabnen

It already has effectively split the Old City into quarters. There's the Christian, Armenian, Jewish, and Muslim Quarters.

Add to that the Temple Mount, which itself is under control of the Islamic Waqf.

There's no need for any other divisions. It's already done, but civil administrative control should remain in Israel's hands - and Israel has done more to respect the divergent religious views than any other country holding control over Jerusalem. After all, the Jordanians used Jewish cemetery markers for latrines and looted synagogues. In 1967, the Israelis let the Waqf retain control of the Temple Mount.

250 American Sabra  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:40:55am

re: #249 lawhawk

In 1967, the Israelis let the Waqf retain control of the Temple Mount.

Ah well. Can't get it right all the time I guess.

251 danrudy  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:42:06am

Charles,
gotta agree with you here. (I told you it happens...80%)

252 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:49:32am

re: #249 lawhawk

It already has effectively split the Old City into quarters. There's the Christian, Armenian, Jewish, and Muslim Quarters.

Add to that the Temple Mount, which itself is under control of the Islamic Waqf.

There's no need for any other divisions. It's already done, but civil administrative control should remain in Israel's hands - and Israel has done more to respect the divergent religious views than any other country holding control over Jerusalem. After all, the Jordanians used Jewish cemetery markers for latrines and looted synagogues. In 1967, the Israelis let the Waqf retain control of the Temple Mount.

For those who claim that Israel does not want peace, they really need to consider the Temple mount.

In Judaism the is only one Temple. The one in Jerusalem, the one where we believe Abraham took Isaac, the one that was the center of our faith, the place where our tradition teaches the very presence of G-d manifested itself in the Holy of Holies.

There is no more sacred place to us in the world.

Yet we leave two Mosques squat on top of it.

If the Muslims had ever taken the Vatican and turned it into a Mosque, how long would the Catholics let it remain so if they got it back? How long would Haiga Sophia stay a mosque if the Greeks ever got it back?

How long would the Muslims let there be a Church in Mecca?

Yet,

We leave those structures squat on our holiest site - even when we know it was built specifically to announce Islam's supremacy over us and all other faiths. I will be clear. I have nothing against mosques, but that one is a painful abomination to my nation.

Yet,

We would rather have peace.

Anyone who thinks that Israel and the Jews have not sacrificed for peace is a fool. We have given our dearest blood.

253 abolitionist  Thu, May 28, 2009 11:59:48am

re: #136 SanFranciscoZionist

Only thing I will ever give Saddam any credit for--he did take in some Palestinian families. This fails to outbalance thirty-some years of homicidal dictatorship, to put it mildly, but he does get some small points for putting his money where his mouth was.

It wasn't just Saddam supporting Fatah/PLO. From Battle of Karameh - Wiki

Iraq and Syria offered training programs for several thousand guerrillas. The Persian Gulf states, led by Kuwait, raised money for them through a 5% tax on the salaries of their tens of thousands of resident Palestinian workers, and a recent fund drive in Lebanon raised $500,000 from Beirut alone. The Palestinian organizations began to guarantee a lifetime support for the families of all guerrillas killed in action.[8] Within a year after the battle, Fatah had branches in about eighty countries.
After the battle, Fatah began to engage in communal projects to achieve popular affiliation.[27] The battle of Karameh and the subsequent increase in the PLO's strength are considered to have been an important catalyst to the Black September events of 1970.[6][28]

Mildly interesting detail there about Palestinians working in other Arab states being taxed at 5%, to provide funding.

254 Mikey_Dallas  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:16:36pm

Good thing the media is in the loop on this. I've been in Canada the last week, and a headline there was

"Netanyahu declares that Israel will respect all prior agreements with Palestinians"

WHEW. Good thing THAT's been settled. Now onward to peace, huh?

255 DeerMusic  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:37:49pm

Agreements signed by the current generation mean less than nothing as long as younger generations continue be taught toxic hatred. There can be, therefore, no real peace without a complete overhaul of the Palestinian education system.

256 John Neverbend  Thu, May 28, 2009 12:49:00pm

re: #12 Kosh's Shadow


And he's found that outright trying to destroy Israel won't work, so he's going to try to get Israel to destroy itself. That won't work either.

No, but Haman may have found a way to do it.

Israel's Cuban Missile Crisis - All the Time

257 robin  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:21:26pm

Israel should become far more strategic and shift its foreign policy. Align to China. The US is on its way out as an imperialistic power. Collapsing organizations, greedy corporates who have fueled a worldwide recession. lazy arrogant people who are now being superseded and outperformed by Asians.

How about increasing military supplies to China, India etc. Time to cut the umbilical cord from the sinking US mother ship. This next century belongs to China and India. There will never be peace with Arabs, as Arabs don't want peace. Israel must not give an inch. Go and eat your waffle Obama.

258 dhg4  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:21:47pm

re: #51 yma o hyd

But:
Israel rebuffs Hillary Clinton's call for halt in West Bank settlements

From that link:
'Israel’s new right-wing government was set for its first stand-off with the Obama Administration today, after it openly rebuffed a call from Washington to a total freeze on all Jewish settlements in the West Bank.'

And:
'A spokesman for Mr Netanyahu – who clashed with then president Bill Clinton when he was prime minister in the late 1990s – said that permission would be given to continue construction in existing settlements, some of which are sprawling towns built in the four decades that Israel has occupied the West Bank.
“Normal life in those communities must be allowed to continue,” said spokesman Mark Regev.'

It's been pointed out that even if Livni had been elected, she likely would not have been for limiting natural growth. Whoever is promoting this "right wing government" meme is just trying to sow seeds of disagreement between Israel and the U.S.

259 Kenneth  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:44:11pm

re: #252 LudwigVanQuixote

Great post.

You probably already know this but, the Haiga Sophia was origianlly a Christian church before the Turks conquered Constantinople and converted desecrated it to a mosque. Also, one of those two mosques in Jerusalem was church before the Arabs converted desecrated it to a mosque.

260 theheat  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:49:35pm
The so-called peace process in the Middle East has absolutely no chance of advancing until this bizarre denial of the fact of Arab rejectionism ceases.

How true. And if by some miracle Obama helped broker peace between the Arabs and Israel, this might actually give him the superstar status the media has bestowed upon him. Of course, he'd the be the first POTUS that ever accomplished that feat. It isn't as if he's trying to break another president's winning record or something.

The smart money says it isn't happening. It's the golden unicorn.

261 Kenneth  Thu, May 28, 2009 1:58:06pm

re: #237 Tamron

The Samson Option is not aimed at the whole world, but at those countries which have attacked Israel since 1948: the Arab world and Iran. The basic premise is that if anybody, it matters not who, but anybody attacks Israel with nuclear or chemical or biological weapons, Israel will respond by retaliating against all possible perpetrators with a massive nuclear attack.

That's the speculation. Who knows if this is real doctrine?

But just as a for instance: suppose Iran launched a nuclear missile attack on Israel. Under the Samson Option, Israel would respond with 200 plus nuclear missiles, cruise missiles and bombs on 200 plus targets around the Middle East. Make a list of the top 200 military targets and cities in the Arab & Iranian world. Now erase them. That's the Samson Option. Maybe that's why Egypt, Jordan & Saudi Arabia are afraid Iran will succeed in building their bomb.

262 Kenneth  Thu, May 28, 2009 2:03:43pm

re: #216 SanFranciscoZionist

When the Turks conquered Constantinople they committed some quite unspeakable dessecrations in the ORthodox churches: beheading priests, raping nuns, raping and beheading choir boys, and worse.

There is a reason the Greeks hate the Turks, no matter that the current state is somewhat secular.

263 voirdire  Thu, May 28, 2009 2:07:32pm

re: #260 theheat

An even bigger feather in his cap would be to successfully topple the Israeli government. Strike one, today when Clinton demanded no new/extended settlements. Netanyahu shrugs to the populace and says: "How can we deal with such an unreasonable government that speaks to us in such a manner?"

Stupid mistake.

264 theheat  Thu, May 28, 2009 2:15:55pm

re: #263 voirdire

You have to wonder why Israel hasn't told the US to piss up a rope by now. We pretend to the their friends, yet dictate the manner which they live, and refuse to acknowledge what Israel must do to survive. We become particularly authoritative whenever Israel amps up their war machine, and are the first to chastise them when they kick enemy ass. Our US/Israel policy has sucked for longer than Obama's term, but may suck that much worse during it.

265 voirdire  Thu, May 28, 2009 2:17:01pm

re: #264 theheat

Israel and India.

266 Lynn B.  Thu, May 28, 2009 3:01:11pm

re: #252 LudwigVanQuixote

For those who claim that Israel does not want peace, they really need to consider the Temple mount.

In Judaism the is only one Temple. The one in Jerusalem, the one where we believe Abraham took Isaac, the one that was the center of our faith, the place where our tradition teaches the very presence of G-d manifested itself in the Holy of Holies.

There is no more sacred place to us in the world.

Yet we leave two Mosques squat on top of it.

If the Muslims had ever taken the Vatican and turned it into a Mosque, how long would the Catholics let it remain so if they got it back? How long would Haiga Sophia stay a mosque if the Greeks ever got it back?

How long would the Muslims let there be a Church in Mecca?

Yet,

We leave those structures squat on our holiest site - even when we know it was built specifically to announce Islam's supremacy over us and all other faiths. I will be clear. I have nothing against mosques, but that one is a painful abomination to my nation.

Yet,

We would rather have peace.

Anyone who thinks that Israel and the Jews have not sacrificed for peace is a fool. We have given our dearest blood.

Just in case anyone missed it the first time ...

Hope you don't mind if I quote you (with attribution, of course).

267 Irenike  Thu, May 28, 2009 4:13:59pm

#252 LudvigVanQuixote:

I'm enjoying your posts on this thread.

Notice that when people suggest that the Arabs giving up the mosque on the Temple Mount, pro-Arab argument is that the Muslims conquered the Mount, and the victors get to keep the spoils of war. Yet, Israel, who obtained land fair and square in wars started by hostile neighbors, is supposed to give it all back.

Israelis literally bleed for peace. They could have nuked the damned Palis years ago. Yet, they don't, and they pay for it in blood every time a Palestinian-made bomb goes off in an Israeli marketplace. They pay every time they decide to do house-to-house searches in terrorist-infested areas, instead of just bombing the damned places to the ground. The profound respect that Judiasm has for life, and the way that the Israelis try to put this respect into practice in a sea of hatred, is truly astonishing. Too bad "world opinion" doesn't take notice.

268 itellu3times  Thu, May 28, 2009 4:38:42pm

What's a pan-Arab anyway, fried goat instead of stewed?

269 tsionguy  Thu, May 28, 2009 6:32:34pm

A reform rabbi friend of mine once told me an interesting story. A little backgound: he's a left wing liberal Israeli who once belonged to Peace Now. We have a great time debating Israeli politics. He once told me about an Arab professor who was a friend of his from Haifa (an Israeli port city with a 50% Arab population). They were close friends, so it was quite shocking when the Arab professor told the rabbi over coffee one day "you know, there will come a day when I will have to kill you." The rabbi thought he was pulling his leg, since they had been lifelong friends. The professor replied that he wished it were a joke. After that conversation, the rabbi quit Peace Now. He is still a left wing liberal, but he got a wake up call that day.

270 tsionguy  Thu, May 28, 2009 6:40:59pm

re: #263 voirdire

The day you hand over your house keys to the descendants of the Indians who used to live on your land, is the day I might take you seriously. Until then, you're just another hypocrite.

271 voirdire  Thu, May 28, 2009 7:46:19pm

re: #270 tsionguy

The day you hand over your house keys to the descendants of the Indians who used to live on your land, is the day I might take you seriously. Until then, you're just another hypocrite.

Wrong Indians, stooge.

272 Kent64  Fri, May 29, 2009 6:25:11am

You cannot stop the boiling in a kettle by fanning away the steam. The Iranian regime is the fire that will always keep the violence going in the Middle East Kettle. They will sabotage anything that smacks of stability and peace whether in Israel with the Palestinians or in Iraq between the Sunni and Shia.

When the Iranians actually test a nuclear weapon as North Korea did this week, it will be High Noon for Israel. They cannot run away and hide and they cannot hope to appease those that are determined to kill them. It will be destroy or be destroyed.

273 AZDave  Fri, May 29, 2009 12:33:28pm

re: #29 JohnnyReb

Just my opinion, but I suspect that when Iran tests a Nuke the Pali problem will vanish overnight. I suspect that all the players will drop the Palis like a hot potato and concentrate on holding back Iran. However, I could be just a very naive kinda guy.

Unfortunately, the Iranian test site is called Tel Aviv.

274 elclynn  Sat, May 30, 2009 5:01:08pm

Good grief, Pals, Syria, Lebanon and 22 Arab States? It won't last an hour!

275 Sceptic Tank  Sun, May 31, 2009 7:54:14am

The occupying Arabs of Jordan-Palestine do not accept the two-state fiction but a rather a one-state solution. A final solution but they may get what they wish on others. That too, is on the table, if they persist, as the Islamists state daily as a goal for Israel. Events in this world seem to be taking on an movement without the USA's mischief making.


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