Video: Gadafi Says Libya Was on the Brink of Producing a Nuclear Bomb

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Libyan dictator “Col.” Muammar Gadafi, the Man of Many Spellings with the all-girl bodyguard squad, says that when Libya gave up its nuclear program (following the invasion of Iraq), they were on the brink of producing a nuclear bomb.

I’ve realized that what seems like total insanity in Muammar Gadafi is actually … well, partly total insanity, but also a very canny politician who knows how to exploit the Middle East and Islam. He’s a rebel. He has a female bodyguard squad, he wears colorful clothes with funny hats, and he does lots of other things that probably drive the Islamists nuts. (A short drive.) He’s the James Dean of Islam, except that he’s not acting and he really does murder people.

(Courtesy of MEMRI TV.)

[Embedded content no longer available.]

We are the owners of the world. We are the world. The U.N. used to consist of four countries – the United Nations against Hitler. But the U.N. of today is not the U.N. of World War II. Today, the U.N. consists of 190 countries, and we are 118 countries. Hence, we are the U.N. We must not feel inferior. We must not beg for alms from anyone. We are the ones who should say “yes” or “no” and determine the future of the world.
[…]
All hell broke loose because of Iran’s uranium enrichment. This is wrong. All hell should break loose over nuclear weapons – if there is a program for producing a nuclear bomb. But if there is a program for uranium enrichment, it should be encouraged and applauded as a scientific accomplishment. We should help countries so they can enrich uranium.
After the uranium enrichment stage, there are two channels – red and green. We should not allow them to pass through the red channel, because in this channel, uranium is turned into a nuclear weapon, and we do not want more nuclear weapons in the world. We want to get rid of those that exist today. This is logical. But to block both channels?! What’s the point? This is injustice. This is stupidity. This is denial of knowledge. If Iran had said that it was enriching uranium to produce a nuclear bomb, we would all be against it and would ask Iran to stop. We would be against such a program. But if Iran says it is enriching uranium for peaceful purposes, we should encourage it. We should not stand in its way.
[…]
Libya reached the stage of uranium enrichment, and chose the red channel. Libya was on the brink of producing a nuclear bomb. But we began this when the revolution in Libya took place. It took us decades to reach the stage where we could produce a nuclear bomb. By the time we reached this stage, the world had changed. Even our way of thinking had developed. The world had changed, alliances had changed, the world map had changed – against whom would we use the nuclear bomb? We searched and couldn’t find an enemy worthy of us using the nuclear bomb on. In addition, we thought: How will we protect this nuclear bomb? How will we dismantle it and hide each part separately? How will we assemble it when necessary? If there is a target – how will we protect the transportation of the bomb to the target? We found that the expenses and problems would endanger Libya more than [the bomb] would protect its security. Therefore, we decided to voluntarily shut down our nuclear program.

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185 comments
1 HelloDare  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:36:03pm

The left, of course, will not believe him.

2 jcm  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:36:15pm
By the time we reached this stage, the world had changed.

Translation:
Seeing 'ole Saddam drug outta' his spidey hole by the Cowboy Bush, put the fear-o-god into ya?

3 NonNativeTexan  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:36:36pm

Gadafi knew W meant business. That is how you
negotiate with thugs.

4 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:36:39pm
But if Iran says it is enriching uranium for peaceful purposes, we should encourage it. We should not stand in its way.

And what if they're lying, Momar?

5 Racer X  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:37:10pm

Gee, I wonder what made him un-clench?

6 Macker  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:37:11pm

re: #1 HelloDare

The left, of course, will not believe him.

The left will rationalize his actions.

7 albusteve  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:37:46pm

who's he been drinkin beer with?...Bartender!

8 HelloDare  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:37:58pm

Who the hell is afraid of Obama?

9 jcm  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:38:38pm

re: #3 NonNativeTexan

Gadafi knew W meant business. That is how you
negotiate with thugs.

W was a reckless cowboy...

/ view from a Crawford TX ditch...

10 jcm  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:39:09pm

re: #8 HelloDare

Who the hell is afraid of Obama?

My wallet.

11 swamprat  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:39:20pm

And we had no desire to swing like Saddam.

12 Steve Rogers  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:40:29pm

The Left's Cognitive Dissonance Response:

"Wow! Obama's diplomatic genius reached back in time to accomplish this!"

13 calcajun  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:40:34pm

We almost had the bomb-- but our stupid scientists along came up with a shiny bomb casing full of used pinball machine parts.

14 jaunte  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:40:44pm

It does raise the question of how wide a 'brink' is in Libya.

15 VegasRick  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:41:10pm

re: #2 jcm

Translation:
Seeing 'ole Saddam drug outta' his spidey hole by the Cowboy Bush, put the fear-o-god into ya?

He will probably start back up now.
*no fear

16 calcajun  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:41:20pm

re: #13 calcajun

We almost had the bomb-- but our stupid scientists along came up with a shiny bomb casing full of used pinball machine parts.

...ONLY came up with...

17 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:41:25pm

He actually sounds coherent in this speech. A little whacked out, sure, but that part where he describes how they came to the conclusion to abandon the nuke project is pretty danged logical.

18 Liberandos  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:41:50pm

Bush's fault!

19 swamprat  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:42:00pm

More to fear than a sternly worded warning.

20 albusteve  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:42:03pm

re: #17 Charles

He actually sounds coherent in this speech. A little whacked out, sure, but that part where he describes how they came to the conclusion to abandon the nuke project is pretty danged logical.

I am honesty impressed with his candor

21 reine.de.tout  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:42:25pm

re: #17 Charles

He actually sounds coherent in this speech. A little whacked out, sure, but that part where he describes how they came to the conclusion to abandon the nuke project is pretty danged logical.

He must have been having a good day.

22 victor_yugo  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:43:12pm

"Libya" this and "Libya" that.

What he really means is "I" this and "I" that. Moammar can't hide behind any collective.

23 HelloDare  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:43:24pm

re: #20 albusteve

I am honesty impressed with his candor

It might be the twelve-step program he's on.

24 Truck Monkey  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:44:00pm

re: #9 jcm

W was a reckless cowboy...

/ view from a Crawford TX dbitch...

FTFY

25 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:44:04pm

re: #17 Charles

He actually sounds coherent in this speech. A little whacked out, sure, but that part where he describes how they came to the conclusion to abandon the nuke project is pretty danged logical.

Personally, I'm more concerned with the first part of his speech that you excerpted. If I am reading it correctly, he's indicating that the Muslim nations have a majority in the UN and that they should hold all the keys to the future of the world.

26 Equable  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:44:06pm

I wonder if he's going to pick up where he left off now that Obama is neutering our deterrent?

27 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:44:47pm
The world had changed, alliances had changed, the world map had changed – against whom would we use the nuclear bomb? We searched and couldn’t find an enemy worthy of us using the nuclear bomb on. In addition, we thought: How will we protect this nuclear bomb? How will we dismantle it and hide each part separately? How will we assemble it when necessary? If there is a target – how will we protect the transportation of the bomb to the target? We found that the expenses and problems would endanger Libya more than [the bomb] would protect its security. Therefore, we decided to voluntarily shut down our nuclear program.

That's stupid. He's assuming Iran has the same point of view and situation. Unlike Libya:

Iran has an enemy they're willing to nuke.
Iran feels no need to hide a nuke - they intend to use it.
Iran won't disassemble their bomb, they will deploy it.
Iran only needs to assemble the bomb once.
Iran has already tested missiles.
Iran is not worried about the expenses - they have Faith.

28 oh_dude  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:44:58pm
Libya gave up its nuclear program (following the invasion of Iraq), they were on the brink of producing a nuclear bomb.

Ok, so was going into Iraq a good thing or bad thing?

It's kinda like asking someone whether landing on the beaches of Normandy as it was happening is a good idea or not.

29 FrogMarch  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:45:27pm

What happens when the US proves to the world we are not a paper tiger.

30 albusteve  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:45:57pm

re: #27 Sharmuta

That's stupid. He's assuming Iran has the same point of view and situation. Unlike Libya:

Iran has an enemy they're willing to nuke.
Iran feels no need to hide a nuke - they intend to use it.
Iran won't disassemble their bomb, they will deploy it.
Iran only needs to assemble the bomb once.
Iran has already tested missiles.
Iran is not worried about the expenses - they have Faith.

and they have BO for their ace in the hole

31 wrenchwench  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:46:27pm

re: #17 Charles

He actually sounds coherent in this speech. A little whacked out, sure, but that part where he describes how they came to the conclusion to abandon the nuke project is pretty danged logical.

Facing death can focus the mind.

32 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:46:48pm

re: #25 Walter L. Newton

Personally, I'm more concerned with the first part of his speech that you excerpted. If I am reading it correctly, he's indicating that the Muslim nations have a majority in the UN and that they should hold all the keys to the future of the world.

That's his standard Islamic supremacist rant. He loves to announce that Islam is about to take over the world, probably because he knows it plays well to the masses.

Gadafi's no Islamist, though.

33 kynna  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:46:59pm

The timing of his full cooperation was a coincidence, of course. Ghaddafi's (however you spell it) capitulation and the discovery and shutting down of the network of nuclear weapons exploration following it had NOTHING to do with Bush!

///mooonbat

34 albusteve  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:47:11pm

re: #25 Walter L. Newton

Personally, I'm more concerned with the first part of his speech that you excerpted. If I am reading it correctly, he's indicating that the Muslim nations have a majority in the UN and that they should hold all the keys to the future of the world.

if NYC sorted out all the parking tickets, they'd all be at war with each other in two weeks

35 Ojoe  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:48:14pm
We found that the expenses and problems would endanger Libya more than [the bomb] would protect its security. Therefore, we decided to voluntarily shut down our nuclear program."

Well judging from that, he's not crazy.

36 jaunte  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:48:26pm

re: #25 Walter L. Newton

Removing the Islamist angle from that thought, compare those 118 countries that he says "own the world" with their positions on this chart:
[Link: www.heritage.org...]
It's more like the oligarchy that owns the world.

37 itellu3times  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:48:37pm

Either he's learned some wisdom in his elder days, or he's learned to sound wise, which is close enough for many purposes.

/now about that all-girl bodyguard, ...

38 victor_yugo  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:49:32pm

re: #32 Charles

Gadafi's no Islamist, though.

He won't be dancing a Libyan jig the day the US Constitution is supplanted by the Koran?

I am curious to your thoughts on this. I've never seen anything to indicate otherwise.

39 marsl  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:49:54pm

A fine example how to deal with international thugs. Kadhaffi saw what happened to Saddam and learned that America meant business.

Messing with America is a dangerous option. Specially when America have a tough and fearless leader.

40 Ron Paul  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:50:09pm

Also we had no wish to be completely kicked our ass by usa military
and hogtied with branding iron cowboy Bush

41 Macker  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:50:28pm

re: #32 Charles

That's his standard Islamic supremacist rant. He loves to announce that Islam is about to take over the world, probably because he knows it plays well to the masses.

Gadafi's no Islamist, though.

If Dinner Jacket insists on deploying their nuke on Tel Aviv or ANY Western City, and the people do nothing about it (their LAST Chance), then I'm sure the IAF or USAF or USN can arrange their meeting with God (and not Allah).

42 Mike McDaniel  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:50:39pm

I'd take their claims with a shaker of salt. Tinpot dictators are big on brag.

43 Racer X  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:51:30pm

re: #17 Charles

He actually sounds coherent in this speech. A little whacked out, sure, but that part where he describes how they came to the conclusion to abandon the nuke project is pretty danged logical.

Gadafi has no aspirations of starting Armageddon in order to bring down the Mahdi. Short shit does.

44 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:51:52pm

I've realized that what seems like total insanity in Muammar Gadafi is actually ... well, partly total insanity, but also a very canny politician who knows how to exploit the Middle East and Islam. He's a rebel. He has a female bodyguard squad, and he does lots of other things that probably drive the Islamists nuts. (A short drive.) He's the James Dean of Islam.

45 albusteve  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:52:16pm

re: #38 victor_yugo

He won't be dancing a Libyan jig the day the US Constitution is supplanted by the Koran?

I am curious to your thoughts on this. I've never seen anything to indicate otherwise.

he might even be dead by then...the hypotheticals are endless

46 HelloDare  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:52:42pm

Hey, he's for green energy!

47 Macker  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:52:48pm

re: #44 Charles

After all, we missed him by what, 15 feet?

48 Mike McDaniel  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:53:29pm

re: #39 marsl

A fine example how to deal with international thugs. Kadhaffi saw what happened to Saddam and learned that America meant business.

Messing with America is a dangerous option. Specially when America have a tough and fearless leader.

That's the problem. We've got a weak and fearful leader now. :-(

49 Racer X  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:53:39pm
50 Ron Paul  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:53:56pm

re: #45 albusteve

the second amendment trumps the koran.

51 Orangutan  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:54:20pm

Funny thing about a light. You don't know how close you are or were to turning it on until ... it actually turns on.

52 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:54:26pm

re: #44 Charles

I've realized that what seems like total insanity in Muammar Gadafi is actually ... well, partly total insanity, but also a very canny politician who knows how to exploit the Middle East and Islam. He's a rebel. He has a female bodyguard squad, and he does lots of other things that probably drive the Islamists nuts. (A short drive.) He's the James Dean of Islam.

Fashion wise- he's the Courtney Love of Islam.

53 HelloDare  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:54:32pm

Can't anybody sew in his country? He just wraps himself in curtains all the time.

54 victor_yugo  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:55:13pm

re: #44 Charles

He has a female bodyguard squad, and he does lots of other things that probably drive the Islamists nuts.

Well, since you put it that way...

55 swamprat  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:55:13pm

re: #47 Macker

After all, we missed him by what, 15 feet?

The russians left port the day before we hit. He discovered what good friends the russkies can be.

56 albusteve  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:55:38pm

re: #44 Charles

I've realized that what seems like total insanity in Muammar Gadafi is actually ... well, partly total insanity, but also a very canny politician who knows how to exploit the Middle East and Islam. He's a rebel. He has a female bodyguard squad, and he does lots of other things that probably drive the Islamists nuts. (A short drive.) He's the James Dean of Islam.


Rebel Without a Cause...good one...I thinks he digs his comfortable lifestyle/retirement in the desert...old age will do that sometimes

57 HelloDare  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:56:19pm

He's got booby guards.

58 albusteve  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:57:03pm

re: #53 HelloDare

Can't anybody sew in his country? He just wraps himself in curtains all the time.

together they make a large tent for road trips...smart guy

59 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:57:48pm

Imagine how crazy that female bodyguard squad makes the fundamentalists. It's a major thumb in the eye.

60 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:58:34pm

But somehow the old crocodile pulls it off.

61 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:58:45pm

re: #49 Racer X

Cool.

62 DEZes  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:59:08pm

re: #57 HelloDare

He's got booby guards.

Just think about the traps.

63 HelloDare  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:59:08pm

re: #59 Charles

Imagine how crazy that female bodyguard squad makes the fundamentalists. It's a major thumb in the eye.

Not a thumb. And not in the eye.

64 victor_yugo  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:59:49pm

re: #60 Charles

But somehow the old crocodile pulls it off.

Woe to anyone who challenges him on that one. Have you seen those girls? I wouldn't want to meet any of them in a dark alley.

65 Macker  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:59:53pm

re: #59 Charles

Imagine how crazy that female bodyguard squad makes the fundamentalists. It's a major thumb in the eye.

And just for that, Tripoli might just as well be a future Target for Iranian strikes.

66 marsl  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 5:59:57pm

re: #48 Mike McDaniel

That's the problem. We've got a weak and fearful leader now. :-(

Well, that's your problem. You Americans elected him...

Thinking straight, that's my problem and a world problem too, because America is the leader of the world.

By the way, a silly question: why all the recent Democrat POTUS are idiots and naive idealists? Since Dhimmi Carter, that is a feature of all Dem POTUS.

67 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:00:32pm

re: #49 Racer X

Very groovy. Must post.

68 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:00:45pm

re: #59 Charles

Imagine how crazy that female bodyguard squad makes the fundamentalists. It's a major thumb in the eye.

I mean seriously...Who comes up with the concept of super model bodyguards? It's so...so... James Bond like...
*wink*

69 Macker  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:01:11pm

re: #66 marsl

Think back to Chicago, 1968. That's the year the frakking moonbats took over the Democratic Party.

70 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:01:29pm

re: #65 Macker

Libya does have trouble with Islamic terrorists. Not sure if they're more motivated by Islam or some ethnic secessionist thing.

71 Age Of Freedom  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:01:31pm

Charles gets a topic upding for the following fun little fact: "(The) Man of Many Spellings".

Charles,
I saw something funny the other day and thought you might like it since you're the perpetuator of "Arafish":

Arabfart.

72 victor_yugo  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:02:26pm

re: #66 marsl

By the way, a silly question: why all the recent Democrat POTUS are idiots and naive idealists? Since Dhimmi Carter, that is a feature of all Dem POTUS.

It's the delayed result of US-ian universities, where most of the students are too dense to see through the profs' Communist sympathies.

73 swamprat  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:02:34pm

Ways to come to power in a middle east country;

Shoot your way to the top.
Inherit the reins.
Win an election.

74 victor_yugo  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:04:17pm

re: #73 swamprat

Ways to come to power in a middle east country;

Shoot your way to the top.
Inherit the reins.
Win an election.

FTFY. (Israel is a Middle Eastern country.)

75 Macker  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:04:33pm

re: #73 swamprat

Ways to come to power in a middle east country;

Shoot your way to the top.
Inherit the reins ruins.
Win an election.

There, fixed that for ya!

76 [deleted]  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:04:35pm
77 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:05:43pm

Shit.

78 victor_yugo  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:05:51pm

re: #77 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Shit.

???

79 Macker  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:06:22pm

re: #77 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Shit.

Not here. Draws flies and little kids with spoons.

80 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:06:22pm

re: #77 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Shit.

Veggie! What up? Hope you are well!

81 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:06:27pm

He's a murdering SOB, too, make no mistake.

82 [deleted]  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:06:29pm
83 jcm  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:06:34pm

re: #49 Racer X

Solar Eclipses Viewed From Space

Pictures of a shadow, YAWN!

///

Very Cool!

84 jaunte  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:06:41pm

Zoe Williams writing in the Guardian questioned Gaddafi's imagined enlightened views on women:

"…an astonishingly poor human rights record that sees women in Libya locked up in 'social rehabilitation centres' for crimes such as 'being raped', 'being orphaned' and 'being poor'. Perhaps he plans to save us western ladies from due process and the rule of law?"


[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

85 HelloDare  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:07:00pm

I couldn't find Gadafi on FaceBook but I found this.
[Link: www.algathafi.org...]

Unfortunately, there's no Bodyguard Button.

86 marsl  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:07:10pm

re: #69 Macker

Think back to Chicago, 1968. That's the year the frakking moonbats took over the Democratic Party.

Wait a minute. If the Dems are moonbats, then what you call to the radical moonbatery, for example, in S. Francisco?

87 Ron Paul  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:07:12pm

Gadafi is proof that people who have too much money or power do not have friends that will tell them the truth. also prooves that with absolute power comes the ability to dictate fashon.

88 albusteve  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:07:45pm

re: #81 Charles

He's a murdering SOB, too, make no mistake.

Capone was a fun guy once in a while...they say

89 HelloDare  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:08:24pm

So he asked bin Laden why he was a terrorist. Why didn't he ask himself about the Lockerbie bombing?

90 Macker  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:08:28pm

re: #86 marsl

Wait a minute. If the Dems are moonbats, then what you call to the radical moonbatery, for example, in S. Francisco?

Why, San Francisco Demo☭rats of course!

91 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:08:32pm

Several Bulgarian nurses are unable to comment...

93 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:09:07pm

re: #78 victor_yugo

???

As in... "Wow. Shit."

94 victor_yugo  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:09:33pm

re: #86 marsl

Wait a minute. If the Dems are moonbats, then what you call to the radical moonbatery, for example, in S. Francisco?

"Democrats."

What do you call the guy who graduates last in class at med school? "Doctor."

95 Macker  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:10:02pm

re: #94 victor_yugo

GMTA!

96 SFGoth  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:10:14pm

Guys (and Gals), lets not give Bush *all* the credit. A dude -- a real dude -- named Ronald Reagan once put a foot up Mo's ass. Once bitten, twice shy so to speak.

97 swamprat  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:10:49pm

re: #88 albusteve

Sister had a friend who used to sit on "Uncle Al's " lap when he and the boys would play poker.

Gives me the shivers.

98 SFGoth  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:10:50pm

re: #86 marsl

Wait a minute. If the Dems are moonbats, then what you call to the radical moonbatery, for example, in S. Francisco?

Neighbors

99 marsl  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:11:38pm

re: #81 Charles

He's a murdering SOB, too, make no mistake.

He didn't kill "poor opressed" libanese Hezbolah or Fakestinians Hamas terrorists. Our leftists "peace activists" do not care.

Wait, he was targeted by those "imperialists" F-111. It means , for the left, that he is an ally.

100 marsl  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:13:07pm

re: #98 SFGoth

Neighbors

America is a strange country... sometimes.

101 Targetpractice  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:13:07pm

I've actually talked with some moonbats on this subject, namely pointed out to them that the Colonel gave up his nuke program just after we began bombing Saddam's empire to rubble. Their explanation for Libya suddenly coming clean on said program had nothing to do with Iraq and everything to do with UN diplomacy, namely that it was UN bureauweenies who'd convinced Gadafi to give up the nukes. They insist that, even if the war not happened, Gadafi was gonna give up his Quest for Atomic Fire and come clean.

Personally, I wonder how this might have played out under a Gore administration. We can be fairly sure there never would have been a Second Gulf War, so if we take the Colonel at his word, does this mean today we'd be dealing with a nuclear Libya? Or nukes in the hands of terrorist groups, who'd have no problem lighting off said nukes in major cities?

102 DEZes  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:13:30pm

"we decided to voluntarily shut down our nuclear program."

A translation.
We were gonna yank the dogs tail, but saw its teeth.

103 victor_yugo  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:13:35pm

re: #96 SFGoth

Guys (and Gals), lets not give Bush *all* the credit. A dude -- a real dude -- named Ronald Reagan once put a foot up Mo's ass. Once bitten, twice shy so to speak.

A real dude:

104 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:14:06pm

re: #102 DEZes

"we decided to voluntarily shut down our nuclear program."

A translation.
We were gonna yank the dogs tail, but saw its teeth.

Twice.

105 pat  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:14:50pm

A warning to both Washington and Iran, even if less than truthful. A very clever warning.

106 Cato the Elder  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:15:22pm

The man looks rather ill, I have to say. How old is he?

107 albusteve  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:15:22pm

one of my favorites...

108 Equable  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:16:10pm

I remember being a very young child and watching the news alongside my mother. I vaguely remember how they reported the Gulf of Sidra incident and how Momar vowed to defend the so-called "line of death". His rhetoric was barely coherent, and even back then I knew that this cat was nuttier than a shit house mouse.

109 marsl  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:16:22pm

re: #102 DEZes

"we decided to voluntarily shut down our nuclear program."

A translation.
We were gonna yank the dogs tail, but saw its teeth.

F-111's are very persuasive...

110 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:16:49pm

I don't believe momar. If this was a peaceful nuclear program- why did he keep it a secret from the IAEA? Damn liar.

111 marsl  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:17:45pm

Muammar lyed, Libyans died!

112 irongrampa  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:18:45pm

re: #67 Charles


Did you read any of the comments there?

Some weapons grade stupid there.

113 jcm  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:19:20pm

re: #109 marsl

F-111's are very persuasive...

Dump & Burn!

114 swamprat  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:19:25pm

on thread

115 DEZes  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:21:18pm

re: #104 Charles

Twice.

I do think thats the 1st time you responded to me, cool.

116 DEZes  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:21:41pm

re: #109 marsl

F-111's are very persuasive...

Thats a given. ;)

117 albusteve  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:24:01pm

jet sex

118 Kenneth  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:25:20pm

The historical error aside (has Mouamar been sharing Post-Modern World History 101 notes with Barry?) specifically, there was no UN during WWII to confront Hitler, half of what Mouamar says is correct. The other half is just plain bat-shit crazy.

As Charles said, it's a short drive.

119 HelloDare  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:27:00pm

Five planes, a camel, a tent and 30 female virgin bodyguards... Libyan leader Gaddafi arrives in Paris with his entourage

The conventional treatment for a visiting head of state is five-star accommodation and a fleet of limousines.

This one brought his own tent and camel.

Security might consist of some hefty male bodygaurds and strategically-placed marksmen.

This VIP brought 30 blue-uniformed females, all supposedly virgins.

Don't be deceived: The Libyan leader's female guards are trained to kill

Few of the orthodoxies of a state visit remained unchallenged as Colonel Muammar Gaddafi breezed into Paris in his Bedouin robes yesterday.

His 400-strong entourage arrived on no fewer than five planes before heading to the Hotel de Marigny, where the Libyan leader will pitch his heated tent in the grounds.

He was said to be bringing a Saharan camel with him in order to "greet visitors in the true desert tradition".

His personal unit of female guards clad in blue camouflage uniforms, who will protect him around the clock, are trained killers.

Gaddafi raised his fist triumphantly in the air as he arrived at the Elysee Palace, where he was greeted by President Sarkozy.

Sarkozy extended the invitation after French involvement in the release of five Bulgarian nurses and a doctor who were condemned to death in Libya earlier this year.

[snip]

While Gaddafi has not been in France for 34 years, his son Hannibal has made quite an impact there.

The 28-year-old playboy triggered a major diplomatic incident in Paris two years ago when he was arrested for allegedly punching his pregnant girlfriend and wrecking a hotel suite.

He had to be arrested by armed police at the Paris Intercontinental, but was later released on bail.

Six months earlier he was pulled over for driving his Porsche at 70mph down the Champs-Elysees.

Two years before that, Hannibal was arrested for attacking three Italian policemen with a fire extinguisher while on holiday in Rome.

In all the incidents, he successfully claimed diplomatic immunity and no charges were ever brought.

120 horse  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:27:31pm

"...the James Dean of Islam" - that is something terrifically funny because when you pause for a sec, you realize it is 100% on target. He is an over-the-top silly villain; a villain you can laugh at as you await his ultimate foiling by the good guys. A villain from the old batman TV show, with the "pow!" and "bam!" screen graffiti each time he gets knocked back in place.

121 [deleted]  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:27:32pm
122 [deleted]  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:28:47pm
123 Summer Seale  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:30:04pm

I have to agree with Charles here...

I hate Quadaffi, but he's not a complete idiot. This speech, as usual, hits many topics (he's fond of talking, like Castro). He plays to the Islamists, he tries to sound logical, he appeases the appeasers (questioning what is terrorism) and questions the right to develop nuclear bombs even when he knows full well that Iran is doing just that. However, his admission is a pretty big one.

Also, he's not just talking to the Muslim nations when he says that they are the UN. He's playing to the whole crowd of most nations in the world that see themselves as the underdog in the UN compared to the permanent SC members. Of late, he's been a sort of "internationalist" voice in that regard. He probably realizes he can get much more sympathy from the world for this stance than his previous ones where he bombed planes and killed people directly.

124 marsl  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:30:59pm

With a so large tent, how did you miss him back in 86'?

125 HelloDare  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:31:01pm

re: #119 HelloDare

He was said to be bringing a Saharan camel with him in order to "greet visitors in the true desert tradition".

What are you supposed to do, rub the hump?

126 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:32:30pm

New lizard species found in India

Scientists have discovered a new species of lizard in the lush Western Ghats mountain range in the Indian state of Maharashtra.

The small reptile is a form of gecko and was found by taxonomist Varad Giri in the Kolhapur district. It has been named Cnemasspis kolhapurensis.
...
Mr Giri said he first noticed the lizard in 2005 during a survey of one of the forests in the area.

"When I first stumbled across it, the lizard looked like a normal specimen," he said.

"It was basically a form of gecko but then I saw that it was interesting because its scales were shiny."

He said that when the gecko was held up in a certain light, the tail dorsum exhibited an "iridescent sheen".

Iridescence is commonly reported in a variety of reptiles - but not geckos.

127 jcm  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:33:24pm

re: #126 Killgore Trout

Cnemasspis kolhapurensis:

Now there's a name worthy of a sock.

128 David Simon  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:34:15pm

It's important to remember that we wouldn't be talking about this were it not for the "father" of the "Islamic bomb" A.Q. Khan. And we wouldn't be talking about A.Q. Khan if the Pakistani government had realized long ago that radical Islamists aren't assets, they're dangerous liabilities.

129 HelloDare  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:34:38pm

re: #126 Killgore Trout

New lizard species found in India

Tastes like chicken.

130 MandyManners  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:35:46pm

re: #125 HelloDare

What are you supposed to do, rub the hump?

That's just so...so...

131 [deleted]  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:36:52pm
132 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:37:06pm

re: #126 Killgore Trout

New lizard species found in India

Hi KT...Geckos! I had a pet Gecko in Hawaii when lived there..
They eat cockroaches...The dirty little secret on the Islands..
/Hope you are well

133 albusteve  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:37:17pm

re: #129 HelloDare

Tastes like chicken.

mmm...lined up in a can and smothered in mustard sauce

134 albusteve  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:37:52pm

re: #131 taxfreekiller

the F-111 strike was a sort of "counting coup" moment

he got the message

heh...very good

135 David Simon  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:39:25pm
He’s the James Dean of Islam

Actually, I think of him as the Michael Jackson of Islam, but maybe I'm focusing too much on the kooky, gender-bending getups he seems so fond of.

136 hazzyday  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:44:49pm

I gave it a day to think about it. My opinion is that Charles and a couple of dozen posters owe Ironfist an apology.

I know Ironfist not at all. I have the impression of him as someone who enjoyed the community at LGF very much and tried to fit in. I felt he respected Charles a lot. I was a little shocked to see people turn on him like that.

My opinion is that he was trying to analyze the picture and not ok racism. Trying to apply a logic much the same as a court of law would. A couple of the posters made very good points on the slippery slope to accepting racist images and why and how to avoid it. However jumping on a bandwagon and scapegoating Ironfist isn't a solution. His conclusion doesn't have time to form.

Castigating him because of socks is not a good approach. Many people here have socks. Kilgore and Sharmuta included. At one time they performed a humorous role at the blog. Those that expressed surprise at him having socks are being a little insincere.

All best. and that's not /s

137 [deleted]  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:47:05pm
138 Banner  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:48:18pm

The only hard part about building a bomb is getting the fissionable material. The rest is pretty easy. The science has been nailed down for over 60 years, any decent grad student in physics should be able to build one. It's really not that complicated a device, unless you're trying to build a really small one.

So yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if he was telling the truth.

139 [deleted]  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:49:59pm
140 [deleted]  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:50:27pm
141 Kenneth  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:51:50pm

re: #110 Sharmuta

I don't believe momar. If this was a peaceful nuclear program- why did he keep it a secret from the IAEA? Damn liar.

I think he just admitted ..."Libya took the red path" ...that the Libyan program was towards weapons.

142 freetoken  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:52:02pm

re: #136 hazzyday

wow...

143 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:52:53pm

re: #136 hazzyday

Sorry, but if your response to a picture of a black president of the US with A BONE THROUGH HIS NOSE is to say, "It's just another piercing," it's not me who should be apologizing.

144 freetoken  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:53:37pm

re: #141 Kenneth

That's my take too. Gaddafi has been, for the past couple of years, positioning himself as the head of Africa (which he sort of is via the AU) and the "non-aligned" nations. He's playing to his audience.

145 Kenneth  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:57:11pm

re: #123 Summer

146 Buck  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 6:58:46pm

re: #17 Charles

He actually sounds coherent in this speech. A little whacked out, sure, but that part where he describes how they came to the conclusion to abandon the nuke project is pretty danged logical.

When telling the truth he sounds, well... like he is telling the truth.

147 HelloDare  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 7:01:12pm
148 Kenneth  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 7:02:08pm

re: #138 Banner

Machining uranium is not a simple matter. The stuff is soft, crumbly and ignites in air. But you are correct, the design is out there. The shotgun warhead is straight forward, but low yield. Implosion devices are higher yield but require precision machining.

149 Kenneth  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 7:03:05pm

re: #147 HelloDare

Gene Simmons: hero to ugly men everywhere.l

150 ShanghaiEd  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 7:05:15pm

re: #39 marsl

A fine example how to deal with international thugs. Kadhaffi saw what happened to Saddam and learned that America meant business.

Messing with America is a dangerous option. Specially when America have a tough and fearless leader.

marsl: So, do you subscribe to the Michael Ledeen doctrine on foreign policy?

"Every ten years or so, the United States needs to pick up some small crappy little country and throw it against the wall, just to show the world we mean business" -- Michael Ledeen

151 Pianobuff  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 7:06:49pm

Odd. In an address to Arab countries last year, MQ sounded the alarm on Iran's nuclear program.

I wonder what has changed since then.

152 HelloDare  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 7:07:51pm

re: #150 ShanghaiEd

There is no shortage of crappy little countries that should be thrown against the wall, to the benefit of its population.

153 Kenneth  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 7:08:52pm

re: #135 David Simon

Actually, I think of him as the Michael Jackson of Islam, but maybe I'm focusing too much on the kooky, gender-bending getups he seems so fond of.

Oh man, I'm going to chuckle over that one for days. Thank you. A thousand updings!

Heehhehehehhehehe...

154 Kenneth  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 7:09:29pm

re: #151 Pianobuff

Odd. In an address to Arab countries last year, MQ sounded the alarm on Iran's nuclear program.

I wonder what has changed since then.

His meds.

155 Pianobuff  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 7:10:46pm

re: #135 David Simon

Actually, I think of him as the Michael Jackson of Islam, but maybe I'm focusing too much on the kooky, gender-bending getups he seems so fond of.

Good one. I always had him in the Sun Ra camp.

156 Banner  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 7:12:05pm

re: #148 Kenneth

Machining uranium is not a simple matter. The stuff is soft, crumbly and ignites in air. But you are correct, the design is out there. The shotgun warhead is straight forward, but low yield. Implosion devices are higher yield but require precision machining.

And with the CNC machines that you can buy anywhere, cheaply, machining to those tolerances is now simple. It's just not as hard as it used to be sadly. Forty years from now I expect every country in the world will have nukes. Even some private companies.

157 HelloDare  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 7:12:07pm

re: #150 ShanghaiEd

"Every ten years or so, the United States needs to pick up some small crappy little country and throw it against the wall, just to show the world we mean business"

Who didn't say the above? #1 answer: Jimmy Carter.

158 Kenneth  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 7:13:34pm

re: #136 hazzyday

Several people, myself included, cautioned him to cool it. I will miss him, but he did go off on rather disturbing tangents from time to time. He received many more warnings than most, but he insisted.

159 Cato the Elder  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 7:13:51pm

re: #136 hazzyday

Umm, the thing's over with, you should let it go. I liked IF too, within limits. But he violated Charles's "no advocating (glorifying, celebrating) violence" policy about a thousand times, got deleted, warned, promised to shape up, then crossed the line again like he was playing a game of chicken. Charles gave him extra leeway, but eventually one just runs out of patience. It's not like IF didn't know what he was doing.

As for sockpuppets, maybe I'm naive, and I can't speak to the others you mention, but it's never even occurred to me to register one. I'm Cato the Elder here, and I can't see what end it would serve to have another nick. If I get booted, I'm gone. Maybe some people do it in fun, but the idea of registering socks for a rainy day strikes me as tantamount to collecting false passports "just in case". I might do that in the real world, now that I think about it (I knew a guy once who claimed that not to have at least one European and one Asian passport was crazy, and he got his with a little bribery in Hong Kong and Dublin), but on a blog? One might as well change one's name to Tony Alamo. No good can come of it.

160 David Simon  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 7:13:52pm

re: #150 ShanghaiEd

Ed, are you absolutely sure Ledeen said that?

161 Kenneth  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 7:15:28pm

re: #156 Banner

You have to put the CNC machine in a nitrogen tent, but that too is not prohibitive. You are correct, the future is terrifying.

162 Kenneth  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 7:16:00pm

re: #160 David Simon

Yeah, he did, but like all things, the context matters.

163 Cato the Elder  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 7:16:23pm

re: #156 Banner

And with the CNC machines that you can buy anywhere, cheaply, machining to those tolerances is now simple. It's just not as hard as it used to be sadly. Forty years from now I expect every country in the world will have nukes. Even some private companies.

Hell, if you read "Dune", every great family will have its ancestral nukes, along with the coat of arms and the entry in Debrett's.

164 Buck  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 7:16:36pm

re: #136 hazzyday

I gave it a day to think about it. My opinion is that Charles and a couple of dozen posters owe Ironfist an apology.

[snip]

Castigating him because of socks is not a good approach. Many people here have socks. Kilgore and Sharmuta included. At one time they performed a humorous role at the blog. Those that expressed surprise at him having socks are being a little insincere.

All best. and that's not /s

No socks... No socks... Simple rule.

165 Kenneth  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 7:17:36pm

re: #159 Cato the Elder

People have sock puppets to stir up shit or upding themselves. No other purpose.

166 Cato the Elder  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 7:19:29pm

re: #161 Kenneth

You have to put the CNC machine in a nitrogen tent, but that too is not prohibitive. You are correct, the future is terrifying.

Good thing I won't be here to see it. And I mean that most sincerely.

167 Kenneth  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 7:20:43pm

re: #166 Cato the Elder

"I have seen the future, and it is murder." - Leonard Cohen

168 David Simon  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 7:25:55pm

re: #162 Kenneth

Yeah, he did, but like all things, the context matters.

I've been searching, and I don't see anything conclusive. Best I can tell, Jonah Goldberg paraphrased him and then backed away.

169 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 7:26:20pm

re: #158 Kenneth

Several people, myself included, cautioned him to cool it. I will miss him, but he did go off on rather disturbing tangents from time to time. He received many more warnings than most, but he insisted.

60 deleted comments.

170 ShanghaiEd  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 7:29:00pm

re: #152 HelloDare

There is no shortage of crappy little countries that should be thrown against the wall, to the benefit of its population.

Because nothing improves a population like a few bombing runs. :)

171 Kenneth  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 7:30:10pm

re: #169 Charles

I understand. I'll miss him, but... if I were you I would feel relieved. He said some very dodgy things.

172 ShanghaiEd  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 7:39:32pm

re: #160 David Simon

Ed, are you absolutely sure Ledeen said that?

Well, Jonah Goldberg reported it from a Ledeen speech. Goldberg seems to be pretty well trusted hereabouts. What do you think?

173 David Simon  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 7:47:57pm

re: #172 ShanghaiEd

Well, Jonah Goldberg reported it from a Ledeen speech. Goldberg seems to be pretty well trusted hereabouts. What do you think?

From the horse's (Goldberg's) mouth:

So how does all this, or the humble attempt at a history lesson of my last column, justify tearing down the Baghdad regime? Well, I've long been an admirer of, if not a full-fledged subscriber to, what I call the "Ledeen Doctrine." I'm not sure my friend Michael Ledeen will thank me for ascribing authorship to him and he may have only been semi-serious when he crafted it, but here is the bedrock tenet of the Ledeen Doctrine in more or less his own words: "Every ten years or so, the United States needs to pick up some small crappy little country and throw it against the wall, just to show the world we mean business." That's at least how I remember Michael phrasing it at a speech at the American Enterprise Institute about a decade ago (Ledeen is one of the most entertaining public speakers I've ever heard, by the way).

Perhaps there's some context missing (as Kenneth alluded to)? Or perhaps Goldberg is embellishing?

174 ShanghaiEd  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 7:54:41pm

re: #136 hazzyday

hazzy: While you're here, I had a question for you over in another thread that has since died. You posted the following example from a textbook in the Seattle school district, and I can't find a link to the source, anywhere. Do you remember where you got it? Thanks!

In the current educational and political organizations racism is not a genetic condition. It's the ill fruit of centuries of cultural discrimination used by Western European powers to exploit and subjugate the non European world classes. The resulting power structure that was created by capitalism is the fabric of racism. Racism is an evolved term used to make this political discrimination. If you are of Western European descent you are by your very nature racist. You can not be otherwise.

/s just quoting from Seattle School district work.

175 ShanghaiEd  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 7:59:01pm

re: #173 David Simon

Perhaps there's some context missing (as Kenneth alluded to)? Or perhaps Goldberg is embellishing?

Fair enough. Let me withdraw the Ledeen quote, and ask for response to the Thomas Friedman doctrine, which is somewhat similar. I know this one's accurate, because it's on video (The Charlie Rose Show):

What they needed to see was American boys and girls going house to house, from Basra to Baghdad, um and basically saying, "Which part of this sentence don't you understand?" You don't think, you know, we care about our open society, you think this bubble fantasy, we're just gonna to let it grow? Well, Suck. On. This. ..We could have hit Saudi Arabia. It was part of that bubble. Could have hit Pakistan. We hit Iraq because we could. That's the real truth... --Thomas Friedman.

176 a5minmajor  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:03:11pm

Wait, ...WHAT!? A muslim whack-job with a nuke?
Say it ain't so!
Thanks for comin' clean with the hot update, there Mohammar.

177 Silvergirl  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:36:00pm

re: #92 MandyManners

For some reason, whenever I see Gadaffi, this song pops into my mind.


Funny stuff, Mandy! You and Muammar.

He's a soft [Spoken] guy
(Do-lang-do-lang-do-lang)
Also seems kinda shy
(Do-lang-do-lang-do-lang)
Makes me wonder if I
(Do-lang-do-lang-do-lang)
Should even give him a try
(Do-lang-do-lang-do-lang)
But then I know he can't shy
(Do-lang-do-lang-do-lang)
He can't shy away forever
(Do-lang-do-lang-do-lang)
And I'm gonna make him mine
(Do-lang-do-lang-do-lang)
If it takes me forever
(Do-lang-do-lang)

178 Silvergirl  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:40:37pm

re: #135 David Simon

Actually, I think of him as the Michael Jackson of Islam, but maybe I'm focusing too much on the kooky, gender-bending getups he seems so fond of.

Yeah, when he said "We are the world . . . " I thought of Michael Jackson too.

We are the world
We are the children
We are the ones who make a brighter day
So let's start giving
There's a choice we're making
We're saving our own lives
It's true we'll make a better day
Just you and me

Somehow I don't think that's what he had in mind when he said we are the world.

179 David Simon  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:46:00pm

re: #175 ShanghaiEd

Ooh, that's a lot to chew on. Let's see if I can break it down:

Hit Saudi Arabia? Yes, we could have done that, but what would we have gained? We'd be in control of 20+% of the world's proven oil reserves...and the two holiest cities in Islam, guaranteeing a billion or so enemies. (We'd have to control it, because there would be no one to turn it over to. And that's where the rub comes in: If you read up on Bin Laden, he was more than willing to become a Sudanese farmer before King Fahd begged us to defend KSA against Saddam.)

Hitting Pakistan would have made sense, hindsight being 20/20. Pakistan has been a nominal ally for most of its sixty year history, but Pakistanis - much like Arabs vis a vis Israel - can't seem to get over having their butts handed to them repeatedly when it comes to armed conflict. It was pretty clear early on that Musharaff/ISI/Frontier Corps/whoever the fuck were playing a duplicitous game (i.e. handing over lower level Al Qaeda while tucking away the Taliban bigwigs for future use). Once again though, who would we turn it over to?

And our muddled message to the region didn't help. Tommy Franks was no David Patraes (then again, I'm not sure Patraes would have been Patraes back then). In Afghanistan, we wasted our best intelligence searching for Bin Laden instead of figuring out how to win millions of people over to our side, all the while outsourcing security to the tribal butchers who drove the populace into the arms of the Taliban to begin with.

We repeated the same mistake in Iraq. Our best assets were wasted in the futile search for WMD instead of gaining actionable intelligence. And let's not get started with the CPA, the rush to elections etc.

In any event, Ledeen, Friedman and other "doctrines" don't matter. It was clear that the ratcheting up of terrorist attacks wasn't going to cease so long as we treated them as law enforcement matters. Perhaps the goals of trying to bring democracy to the Middle East and making civilized people of its denizens was quixotic. But it's a damn sight better than what we were doing - which is absolutely nothing.

180 ShanghaiEd  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:50:20pm

re: #179 David Simon

Ooh, that's a lot to chew on. Let's see if I can break it down:

Hit Saudi Arabia? Yes, we could have done that, but what would we have gained? We'd be in control of 20+% of the world's proven oil reserves...and the two holiest cities in Islam, guaranteeing a billion or so enemies. (We'd have to control it, because there would be no one to turn it over to. And that's where the rub comes in: If you read up on Bin Laden, he was more than willing to become a Sudanese farmer before King Fahd begged us to defend KSA against Saddam.)

Hitting Pakistan would have made sense, hindsight being 20/20. Pakistan has been a nominal ally for most of its sixty year history, but Pakistanis - much like Arabs vis a vis Israel - can't seem to get over having their butts handed to them repeatedly when it comes to armed conflict. It was pretty clear early on that Musharaff/ISI/Frontier Corps/whoever the fuck were playing a duplicitous game (i.e. handing over lower level Al Qaeda while tucking away the Taliban bigwigs for future use). Once again though, who would we turn it over to?

And our muddled message to the region didn't help. Tommy Franks was no David Patraes (then again, I'm not sure Patraes would have been Patraes back then). In Afghanistan, we wasted our best intelligence searching for Bin Laden instead of figuring out how to win millions of people over to our side, all the while outsourcing security to the tribal butchers who drove the populace into the arms of the Taliban to begin with.

We repeated the same mistake in Iraq. Our best assets were wasted in the futile search for WMD instead of gaining actionable intelligence. And let's not get started with the CPA, the rush to elections etc.

In any event, Ledeen, Friedman and other "doctrines" don't matter. It was clear that the ratcheting up of terrorist attacks wasn't going to cease so long as we treated them as law enforcement matters. Perhaps the goals of trying to bring democracy to the Middle East and making civilized people of its denizens was quixotic. But it's a damn sight better than what we were doing - which is absolutely nothing.

David: The Friedman quote was a lot to chew on, and you chewed it well. :)

I was with you 100% until the last paragraph. My view is a very different one. But even when I disagree with you, I appreciate your insight(s). Write on!

181 David Simon  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 8:55:49pm

re: #180 ShanghaiEd

My view is a very different one. But even when I disagree with you, I appreciate your insight(s).

Likewise, my friend.

182 fire at night  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 9:30:59pm

Damn he looks horrible.

183 Bob Dillon  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:27:55pm

re: #17 Charles

He actually sounds coherent in this speech. A little whacked out, sure, but that part where he describes how they came to the conclusion to abandon the nuke project is pretty danged logical.

Not bad for extemporaneous.

Was TOTUS taking notes?

184 Bob Dillon  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:37:54pm

[Link: www.tom-phillips.info...]

In April 1986, following an attack on American soldiers in a Berlin disco, President Reagan ordered the bombing of Muammar Qaddafi's terrorist camps in Libya. My duty was to fly over Libya and take photos recording the damage our F-111's had inflicted. Qaddafi had established a 'line of death'; a territorial marking across the Gulf of Sidra, swearing to shoot down any intruder that crossed the boundary. On the morning of April 15, I rocketed past the line at 2,125 mph.

I was piloting the SR-71 spy plane, the world's fastest jet, accompanied by a Marine Major (Walt), the aircraft's reconnaissance systems officer (RSO).

We had crossed into Libya and were approaching our final turn over the bleak desert landscape when Walt informed me that he was receiving missile launch signals. I quickly increased our speed, calculating the time it would take for the weapons - most likely SA-2 and SA-4 surface-to-air missiles capable of Mach 5 - to reach our altitude. I estimated that we could beat the rocket-powered missiles to the turn and stayed our course, betting our lives on the plane's performance.

After several agonizingly long seconds, we made the turn and blasted toward the Mediterranean. "You might want to pull it back,” Walt suggested.

It was then that I noticed I still had the throttles full forward. The plane was flying a mile every 1.6 seconds, well above our Mach 3.2 limit. It was the fastest we would ever fly. I pulled the throttles to idle just south of Sicily, but we still overran the refueling tanker awaiting us over Gibraltar.

Scores of significant aircraft have been produced in the 100 years of flight, following the achievements of the Wright brothers, which we celebrate in December. Aircraft such as the Boeing 707, the F-86 Sabre Jet, and the P-51 Mustang are among the important machines that have flown our skies. But the SR-71, also known as the Blackbird, stands alone as a significant contributor to Cold War victory and as the fastest plane ever - and only 93 Air Force pilots ever steered the 'sled,' as we called our aircraft.

Read the rest and enjoy the photos.

185 Bob Dillon  Sat, Jul 25, 2009 10:50:40pm

re: #17 Charles

He actually sounds coherent in this speech. A little whacked out, sure, but that part where he describes how they came to the conclusion to abandon the nuke project is pretty danged logical.

Gadafi may be crazy but he's not a stupid fool.


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Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT
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Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ...
Cheechako
3 weeks ago
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