Van Jones’ Statement

Politics • Views: 4,634

Here’s the statement released by Van Jones about his decision to resign from his “green jobs” position: White House Adviser Van Jones Resigns Amid Controversy Over Past Activism.

“On the eve of historic fights for health care and clean energy, opponents of reform have mounted a vicious smear campaign against me,” Jones, special adviser for green jobs at the White House Council on Environmental Quality, said in a statement announcing his resignation just after midnight Sunday. “They are using lies and distortions to distract and divide.”

He continued: “I have been inundated with calls — from across the political spectrum — urging me to ‘stay and fight.’ But I came here to fight for others, not for myself. I cannot in good conscience ask my colleagues to expend precious time and energy defending or explaining my past. We need all hands on deck, fighting for the future.”

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903 comments
1 [deleted]  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 9:47:39am
2 debutaunt  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 9:47:59am

Uh huh.

3 Gella  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 9:48:40am

so, that's how i read his statement: i think i can, i think i can, but in reality i cant

4 karmic_inquisitor  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 9:50:09am

This man is an ass hole.

Yes - the truther label was a smear. But that is about it.

The rest of the divisive gutter talk that he spewed from his pie hole is exclusively owned by him. The lazy "I am a victim" defense is as contemptible as it is predictable of a man who lacks anything resembling what could be called a character.

5 MandyManners  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 9:50:18am
I cannot in good conscience ask my colleagues to expend precious time and energy defending or explaining my past.

One of the smartest things I've heard from D.C. in ages.

6 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 9:50:21am

They did use lies against him. He's right about that.

There were plenty of genuine reasons to criticize him, but it was a smear and a distortion that really pulled him down.

7 avanti  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 9:50:22am

I guess it's the Kool-Aid, but I find little to disagree with in that statement.

8 MandyManners  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 9:51:39am

Egads. Avanti dinged me up.

9 debutaunt  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 9:51:53am

If the czar process is being used to avoid vetting, it still isn't working the way it was hoped?

10 SpaceJesus  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 9:51:54am

i'll take his job

11 Kronocide  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 9:51:55am

Going out in (the usual) style!

12 Flyers1974  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 9:52:43am

"But I came here to fight for others, not for myself."

A remarkable coincidence, I can relate completely. It just so happens that I came to LGF to post for others, not for myself.

13 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 9:52:57am

re: #10 spacejesus

i'll take his job

SpaceJesus for Czar!

14 karmic_inquisitor  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 9:53:06am

One caveat to all partisans taking a job in Washington:

When you join the circus be aware of hazards such as flying dung and maiming by otherwise trained animals.

15 debutaunt  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 9:53:27am

re: #11 BigPapa

Going out in (the usual) style!

Under a another van down by the river.

16 Kronocide  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 9:53:28am

Van Jones - not a Troofer, still an asshole.

17 quickjustice  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 9:53:35am

I'm no fan of Van Jones's. And without even addressing the "smears", I can only ask what, if anything, the Obama Administration WILL fight for if they're dumping him under the bus?

18 SpaceJesus  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 9:53:57am

re: #13 SanFranciscoZionist

SpaceJesus for Czar!


I want to be the czar in charge of making fun of rush and beck

19 Desert Dog  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 9:54:01am
Jones, a towering figure in the environmental movement, had worked for the White House Council on Environmental Quality since March. He was a civil-rights activist in California before turning his focus to environmental and energy issues, and he won wide praise before joining the Obama administration for articulating a broad vision of a green economy Democrats could embrace.

Van Jones is a towering figure in the environmental movement? It must be all the scientific expertise and research he brings to the table, eh?

He is represents everything that is wrong about the "environmental movement". I believe the term I heard here on LGF was "watermelon" - green on the outside, red in the middle.

President Obama is free to chose his own advisers. But, he should not be surprised at the reaction he got from choosing this man for anything.

20 avanti  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 9:54:22am

re: #8 MandyManners

Egads. Avanti dinged me up.

I tend to do that with comments I agree with. :)

21 karmic_inquisitor  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 9:55:02am

Charles -

Flounce on aisle 18 in prior post.

22 Perplexed  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 9:55:11am

The comments made by Zombie on a previous thread about this issue were more than a little disturbing.

A quick trip over to DU this morning has them in an uproar over this as well. Republicans, conservatives, and Beck get the blame. Didn't see anyone taking Jones to task for what he actually both said and did. Not the least bit surprising.

23 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 9:55:53am

re: #18 SpaceJesus

I want to be the czar in charge of making fun of rush and beck

Easy enough there. Just get a radio show. And an audience.

24 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 9:56:14am

re: #19 Desert Dog

Van Jones is a towering figure in the environmental movement? It must be all the scientific expertise and research he brings to the table, eh?

Van Jones is incredibly respected among environmentalists. I know you hate him, but that's just a fact.

25 Kronocide  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 9:57:39am

re: #22 Perplexed

Where are these disturbing comments you speak of?

26 Desert Dog  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 9:58:17am

re: #24 Charles

Van Jones is incredibly respected among environmentalists. I know you hate him, but that's just a fact.

That is the problem right there. The link between the radical political and the scientific. He is the poster boy for that.

27 avanti  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 9:58:52am

re: #14 karmic_inquisitor

One caveat to all partisans taking a job in Washington:

When you join the circus be aware of hazards such as flying dung and maiming by otherwise trained animals.

You make a good point. Why would anyone choose to serve their country in the present environment. Assume for a moment that a Lizard was picked to serve, how many have a carelessly worded post or two over the years that could not be exploited.

28 Perplexed  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:00:07am

re: #25 BigPapa

Where are these disturbing comments you speak of?

Here for starters.

29 debutaunt  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:00:45am

re: #27 avanti

You make a good point. Why would anyone choose to serve their country in the present environment. Assume for a moment that a Lizard was picked to serve, how many have a carelessly worded post or two over the years that could not be exploited.

This gentleman ran into trouble as much from his own long record of bizarre statements being made on video for all to see and hear.

30 solomonpanting  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:00:48am

re: #25 BigPapa

Where are these disturbing comments you speak of?

Some can be found here.

31 AuntAcid  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:00:55am

When this Van's a talkin', don't coming a mockin'.

32 Kronocide  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:00:56am

re: #27 avanti

You make a good point. Why would anyone choose to serve their country in the present environment.

If you go into politics you're going to get a lot of crap, deserved or not. However, one would be wise to not supply more fodder for even more crap.

33 SixDegrees  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:01:12am

re: #4 karmic_inquisitor

This man is an ass hole.

Yes - the truther label was a smear. But that is about it.

The rest of the divisive gutter talk that he spewed from his pie hole is exclusively owned by him. The lazy "I am a victim" defense is as contemptible as it is predictable of a man who lacks anything resembling what could be called a character.

Normally, such a denial coupled to an attack on his opponents would ring hollow.

This time, however, there is unfortunately more than just the ring of truth to it. Jones is, quite literally, telling the truth this time - his opponents did indeed deploy gross distortions and outright lies against him.

I strongly suspect that the reasons for his resignation are related more to the items that were, in fact, backed by evidence - videos of his outlandish castigation of whites; his membership in the Noetic Institute; a large body of written and recorded quotes showing a radical, sometimes incoherent adherence to extreme far Left policies. But the whole Troofer charge was based on nothing, an outright smear, and he's correct.

Those who pushed the Troofer charges can blame themselves for giving Jones' parting shot validity.

And it looks as though this will be a gift that keeps on giving. The MSM are unanimously ignoring Jones' many documented shortcomings and are focusing all of their reporting on the Troofer issue, carefully laying blame for it directly on the Right. Given that the MSM is the enemy of the Right, why does anyone suppose they would do such a thing? Obviously, they're laying the groundwork to tar the next round of complaints from the Right, no matter how legitimate, as the emanations of a bunch of knuckle-dragging mouth breathers with one foot busily thumping a fundamentalist Bible and the other firmly planted in the John Birch camp.

Nice going. This entire episode has made valid criticism of appointees that much harder in the future.

34 Chekote  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:01:26am

re: #26 Desert Dog

The politization of science is a very dangerous trend. It is doing a lot of damage to our country.

35 quickjustice  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:02:27am

re: #24 Charles

You're in California, Charles. I'm in NYC. Jones isn't widely known here. Radical greens are a branch of the larger leftist movement. Here in NYC, it's Bobby Kennedy, Jr. and his Riverkeepers organization.

36 Chekote  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:02:38am

Jones will be a martyr of the Left. This will energized certain elements on their base. No doubt.

37 jayzee  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:03:17am

I for one cannot believe he got appointed to anything. Really, his previous statements were all out there, that should have been enough to disqualify him. I have no idea what President Obama was thinking. That being said, there is no way the administration didn't know about this guys past. It is not like any of this is a new development a la Dick Morris. DoS can't fill it's vacancies but this guy gets a job?

38 [deleted]  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:03:29am
39 Flyers1974  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:04:14am

re: #17 quickjustice

I'm no fan of Van Jones's. And without even addressing the "smears", I can only ask what, if anything, the Obama Administration WILL fight for if they're dumping him under the bus?

I don't know how important Van Jones is, in the scheme of things. And I don't expect any president to remain loyal if the price for doing so is too high.

40 Kronocide  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:04:18am

re: #30 solomonpanting

Some can be found here.

Strange, I don't find what Zombie did disturbing at all, as long as it was truthful: what Van Jones actually said. I find what Van Jones actually said (stuff that I heard him say in context) extremely disturbing. I'm ignoring the Troofer link because it was a petty smear, but it was entirely unnecessary

If you are disturbed by what Zombie did, are you also disturbed by what an Administration official actually said?

41 avanti  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:04:25am

re: #29 debutaunt

This gentleman ran into trouble as much from his own long record of bizarre statements being made on video for all to see and hear.

I agree, but if I was asked to serve as the Old Car Czar, I'd be screwed by some of my LGF posts over the last year. :) Having said that, Van Jones comments made me uncomfortable, even though he may have done a kick as job, I rather he'd been vetted better.

42 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:04:32am

re: #33 SixDegrees

And it looks as though this will be a gift that keeps on giving. The MSM are unanimously ignoring Jones' many documented shortcomings and are focusing all of their reporting on the Troofer issue, carefully laying blame for it directly on the Right. Given that the MSM is the enemy of the Right, why does anyone suppose they would do such a thing? Obviously, they're laying the groundwork to tar the next round of complaints from the Right, no matter how legitimate, as the emanations of a bunch of knuckle-dragging mouth breathers with one foot busily thumping a fundamentalist Bible and the other firmly planted in the John Birch camp.

Nice going. This entire episode has made valid criticism of appointees that much harder in the future.

And that's exactly why I said last night that this was going to backfire on the GOP.

43 Blackacre  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:04:34am

re: #24 Charles

"Van Jones is incredibly respected among environmentalists."

So is the Goracle.

44 SixDegrees  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:04:43am

re: #22 Perplexed

The comments made by Zombie on a previous thread about this issue were more than a little disturbing.

A quick trip over to DU this morning has them in an uproar over this as well. Republicans, conservatives, and Beck get the blame. Didn't see anyone taking Jones to task for what he actually both said and did. Not the least bit surprising.

Not surprising at all. Especially when the Right selected, installed and offered them the perfect hook for them to hang such objections and recriminations on - the Troofer smear.

The Right is making the Left's job orders of magnitude easier with this sort of hysteria.

45 AuntAcid  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:05:01am

re: #32 BigPapa

If you go into politics you're going to get a lot of crap, deserved or not. However, one would be wise to not supply more fodder for even more crap.

...especially from your own compost pile.

46 Flyers1974  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:05:07am

re: #36 Chekote

Jones will be a martyr of the Left. This will energized certain elements on their base. No doubt.

He'll be forgotten in a week.

47 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:07:55am

re: #43 Blackacre

So is the Goracle.

Actually, no, he isn't. Among climate scientists, Gore is regarded as a distraction and kind of a buffoon.

48 quickjustice  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:07:58am

And Charles-- as you predicted, the N.Y. Times columnists are making hay out of the armed men who are showing up at the health care protests to discredit those protests.

I don't think that works. It isn't that the weapons were a good idea, but rather that the protests are genuine grassroots. A few kooks at the fringes won't derail them.

49 Desert Dog  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:08:21am

Until the environmental scientists divorce themselves from the radical left, no real reforms will come through. If Obama pushes through this Cap and Trade bill, he will pay a huge political price. I am all for saving the earth, I just don't think that people like Van Jones should be in charge of it.

50 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:08:24am

If you're against me, you're against reform, is that it, VJ ?

I think not.

The direction of VJs' reform is what is disturbing to me.

Hard fuckin' left.

51 quickjustice  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:09:19am

re: #39 Flyers1974

You basic premise is correct, but why hire the guy in the first place if you're going to dump him over the side at the first sign of trouble?

52 jayzee  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:09:27am

re: #46 Flyers1974

He's gone, just like Obama's crazy uncle. I actually thinks this looks bad for the administration. They knew about his past statements, gave him a job, then when others found, out abandoned him. It's not like he got caught with a trio of transvestite hookers in Tulsa. He got caught saying what everyone knew he had said.

53 Ojoe  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:09:32am
“On the eve of historic fights for health care and clean energy, opponents of reform

Does it ever occur to these morons, Obama included, that it would be better to cooperate and work for the COMMON good?

They have a "fight" mindset.

I am SO SICK of them.

54 Chekote  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:09:57am

re: #46 Flyers1974

Not in the grassroots circles.

55 Kronocide  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:10:39am

Although it turned into a smear, at first the pointing out of VJ's signing onto that Troofer link was fair game, but when he retorted that it was a set up (and evidence is that it was) then he put the issue to rest, validated by the lack of further evidence in support that he was a Troofer. There's volumes of him saying all kinds of things but no other Troofer bilge.

The smear was ignoring that, and ignoring the veracity of the link, and then beating it dead.

56 karmic_inquisitor  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:11:43am

re: #27 avanti

You make a good point. Why would anyone choose to serve their country in the present environment. Assume for a moment that a Lizard was picked to serve, how many have a carelessly worded post or two over the years that could not be exploited.

My father ran for Congress twice. Once in 64 and once in 66. he was the Democratic nominee in a SF Bay Area district that had a fairly secure but lazy incumbent. The first time out my dad lost by a couple thousand votes. So when he ran in 66 he went through an experience that he described humorously as "discovering new things about myself everyday." In some ways I don't think he will ever forgive me for the time that I was a Republican. But I know that both sides do it.

The real poison comes when patriotic citizens of goodwill personalize these fights and start an intimate identification with their political party. Political parties want three things from us - votes, money and compliance. They give nothing in return. except to act in their own interest.

57 Ojoe  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:12:18am

This debacle sets real conservation back about a decade IMHO.

58 pat  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:12:32am

He left a crack pot foundation to go to the WH. No doubt he will be in a cushy job again.

59 quickjustice  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:12:42am

To preserve your credibility, it's generally wise to stick to the points that are true and damaging when you're doing opposition research. In Van Jones's case, he had plenty of baggage already without the "Truther" label.

60 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:12:51am

re: #55 BigPapa

Although it turned into a smear, at first the pointing out of VJ's signing onto that Troofer link was fair game, but when he retorted that it was a set up (and evidence is that it was) then he put the issue to rest, validated by the lack of further evidence in support that he was a Troofer. There's volumes of him saying all kinds of things but no other Troofer bilge.

The smear was ignoring that, and ignoring the veracity of the link, and then beating it dead.

I disagree. Without any other evidence than posts at Truther sites and hate sites, it was not fair game at all. This accusation was bullshit, but nobody on the right cared, because they were riding that good ol' lynch mob rush.

61 Kronocide  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:13:19am

re: #28 Perplexed

Here for starters.

I am 'perplexed' at why you classify Zombie's work 'disturbing.' Please elaborate.

62 MandyManners  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:13:58am

re: #60 Charles

I disagree. Without any other evidence than posts at Truther sites and hate sites, it was not fair game at all. This accusation was bullshit, but nobody on the right cared, because they were riding that good ol' lynch mob rush.

I cared.

63 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:14:09am

re: #41 avanti

I agree, but if I was asked to serve as the Old Car Czar, I'd be screwed by some of my LGF posts over the last year. :) Having said that, Van Jones comments made me uncomfortable, even though he may have done a kick as job, I rather he'd been vetted better.

It's not as though there aren't plenty of people with real expertise in this area, and much less problematic pasts.

64 Blackacre  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:14:24am

re: #47 Charles

Actually, no, he isn't. Among climate scientists, Gore is regarded as a distraction and kind of a buffoon.

Hmm. The context was "environmentalists," not "climate scientists." Say what you will, but Gore is a hero to the environmentalist movement and he received a Nobel Prize as well as an Academy Award for it. Do I agree with him? No. Not one bit. But he has received wide accolade from the same travelers as Van Jones. And that's just a fact or, as Gore would say, an inconvenient truth.

65 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:15:12am

re: #28 Perplexed

Here for starters.

Zombie has more credibility than just about anyone out there doing the digging and exposing the lies.

66 Bloodnok  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:15:31am

re: #46 Flyers1974

He'll be forgotten in a week.

He will. A lot of the comments I see on right wing blogs make it sound as though "We got Obama!". No, they didn't. And if this is the best they can do, Obama's going to be just fine.

Come election time people who could potentially be swayed to the right (the people needed to win elections) will not remember Van Jones and if reminded will probably be more inclined to remember the hysteria and lies provided by the right.

And there will be more of this. Much more. These people feel their lies and smears are justified now -and they work. The GOP will not be the party of "no" but the party of froth. And without a solid platform and alternative plans (other than picking off advisors the general public hardly cares about until the hysteria sets in) the results are going to be pretty dismal.

67 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:15:39am

re: #53 Ojoe

Does it ever occur to these morons, Obama included, that it would be better to cooperate and work for the COMMON good?

They have a "fight" mindset.

I am SO SICK of them.

Be fair, if they say 'common good' they're gonna get called socialists.

//

68 solomonpanting  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:15:43am

re: #40 BigPapa

If you are disturbed by what Zombie did, are you also disturbed by what an Administration official actually said?

If these are attributed to Jones...

--Jones has consistently leaned on racially charged language, pointing the finger at "white polluters and the white environmentalists" for "steering poison" to minority communities...

--A declared "communist" during the 1990s, Jones once associated with a group that looked to Mao Zedong as an inspiration.


...then, yes, it's disturbing.
You mean zombie's comments about Jones weren't disturbing?

69 pat  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:16:02am

re: #53 Ojoe

I don't think it does occur to them. Americans are the enemy and they need to fight them. Read a few chapters of Van Jones book.

70 calcajun  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:17:34am

Ah-- he's a "victim"--by his own hand.

Well, this is partly true. He is a victim of poor judgment in becoming a communist, race-baiting (white-polluters?), and accepting the job knowing he had this baggage.

And with respect to the whole "truther" issue, I neither know nor care now if he was a true believer. The fact is he showed poor judgment in even listening to these people, let alone in signing anything. And, on that (and final) note, in the law, if your signature is on a document, it is presumed that you both read and understood the document. (IOW, I do not believe the "I misunderstood what I was signing" argument; that only works for those who lack the requisite capacity or are victims of outright fraud.)

Am at office on a Sunday.
Bliss.

71 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:17:59am

re: #66 Bloodnok

He will. A lot of the comments I see on right wing blogs make it sound as though "We got Obama!". No, they didn't. And if this is the best they can do, Obama's going to be just fine.

Come election time people who could potentially be swayed to the right (the people needed to win elections) will not remember Van Jones and if reminded will probably be more inclined to remember the hysteria and lies provided by the right.

And there will be more of this. Much more. These people feel their lies and smears are justified now -and they work. The GOP will not be the party of "no" but the party of froth. And without a solid platform and alternative plans (other than picking off advisors the general public hardly cares about until the hysteria sets in) the results are going to be pretty dismal.

Then why dump his resignation on Labor Day weekend if it's such a win for Obama ?

72 Kronocide  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:18:01am

re: #60 Charles

I disagree. Without any other evidence than posts at Truther sites and hate sites, it was not fair game at all. This accusation was bullshit, but nobody on the right cared, because they were riding that good ol' lynch mob rush.

Well, at first isn't it fair game to point out that he was a signatory to that Troofer link? If I saw it I'd post it. After that point (and the realization, at least for me, that site was a joke), there's no excuse for it.

If people knew that site was a hoax and not credible but brought it up anyway then you are absolutely right. I think it's a minor contention in light of all the aftermath.

73 Pianobuff  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:18:27am

How prevalent is MSM coverage of the Van Jones resignation? Will the general public hear much about this or will it remain an inside baseball kind of thing within the blogosphere?

Anybody watch the Sunday shows? Was it covered?

74 Randall Gross  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:19:51am

I'm well pleased that he resigned, but not by the "any means fair or foul" methods. There was enough out there to force this without the troofer trash.

75 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:19:51am

"Inundated with calls from across the political spectrum"?

Leaving aside the disturbing image of anyone being literally inundated with phone calls, I wonder how he is defining the political spectrum. Are we talking the section of the spectrum between Infrared and FM radio? Or that place, on the great circle of political stupidity, where the extremes at both ends meet?

Or is it at the point of Bob?

76 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:19:58am

Amazing. After everything I posted, people still want to believe the Truthers.

Several of the people on that document have come forward and said they were misled into signing it. One of them, Rachel Ehrenfeld, had her name placed on the document completely without her knowledge.

But you're still going to take the word of the Truthers, despite the fact that there is no statement anywhere from Van Jones supporting Trutherism?

77 jayzee  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:20:17am

re: #73 Pianobuff

I just herd Chris Wallace mention it on Fox. I still think their news teams are better than others on TV (I could do without many of their pundits however).

78 Chekote  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:20:20am

Who will be Beck's next target? Beck is a hero in the right wing blogosphere. The GOP is in deep shit and doesn't even know it.

79 MandyManners  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:20:58am

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

80 jayzee  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:22:21am

I still cannot believe this smear is what broke Jones. I can't believe that with everything else he has said, it required this to bring things to a head. IMHO-if the troofer thing was the only thing against Jones, I think he would've survived politically.

81 Kronocide  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:22:21am

re: #68 solomonpanting

...then, yes, it's disturbing.
You mean zombie's comments about Jones weren't disturbing?

I read it as Zom's comments and work were disturbing. It does elicit a minor 'WTF' from me.

82 Athos  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:22:30am

re: #53 Ojoe

They have a "fight" mindset.

It comes from the 'playbook'. The problem is, once you define it as a fight, it becomes a fight and the entire discourse and debate ultimately becomes cheapened as it downgrades into accusation and smear. That's what the fringe resorts to when they can't make a cogent alternative case.

Perhaps this needs to be a collorary to something like Godwin's Law - the first person to call it a fight loses the debate...

83 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:22:38am

re: #78 Chekote

Who will be Beck's next target? Beck is a hero in the right wing blogosphere. The GOP is in deep shit and doesn't even know it.

I think the real question is who will be Obama's next victim under the bus? It appears that Obama's weak administration is it's own biggest downfall. Sigh.

84 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:23:21am

re: #78 Chekote

Who will be Beck's next target? Beck is a hero in the right wing blogosphere. The GOP is in deep shit and doesn't even know it.

They're going after Cass Sunstein next. Beck sent out the word on Twitter feed to his followers to dig up every bit of dirt they could find on him.

85 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:23:43am

(repost, now that it's not OT)

So I leave here (work) at 11 p.m. last night, and as I pull inot the driveway at just about midnight hear the breaking news re: Van Jones. I have to give kudos to the Obama team for
A) cutting their losses instead of stubbornly hanging on to him
B) their impeccable timing (Saturday/Sunday midnight ,,,Holiday weekend). By the time Tuesday comes along this is old news. Todays talking head shows will have to discuss it, but viewership is way down this morning for the last weekend (long) of the summer

I doubt much of America will even notice


RAHM ,,, YOU MAGNIFICENT BASTARD (grudgingly)

86 Randall Gross  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:23:59am

re: #76 Charles

I'm not surprised, there's a concerted campaign by the usual suspects. The overnight sock burnings should tell you that.

[hint: if you are going to burn socks, to count they must be substantial socks what I saw overnight was flimsy immaterial ectoplasm of the same old crew, I even recognized some writing styles.]

87 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:24:18am

Here's the hit list that's going around conservative mailing lists:

Next: Jeff Jones. Mark Lloyd. Cass Sunstein. John Holdren.

88 ted  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:24:21am

No tears here...

89 Bloodnok  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:24:33am

re: #71 SasquatchOnSteroids

Then why dump his resignation on Labor Day weekend if it's such a win for Obama ?

Because this is when it happened. This story is only a few days old. And no, it's not a win for Obama so they would want to make it go away to prove it is not worthy of the hysteria it has generated and to shut the smear merchants up (because people are obviously buying the troofer crap). They are buckling as they have done in the past and may continue to do. That does not mean it still won't be a net loss for the GOP.

90 debutaunt  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:24:43am

re: #41 avanti

I agree, but if I was asked to serve as the Old Car Czar, I'd be screwed by some of my LGF posts over the last year. :) Having said that, Van Jones comments made me uncomfortable, even though he may have done a kick as job, I rather he'd been vetted better.

Your massive gambling habit might be a tiny problem!

91 Red Pencil  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:25:39am

re: #75 Lucius Septimius

"Inundated with calls from across the political spectrum"?

Leaving aside the disturbing image of anyone being literally inundated with phone calls, I wonder how he is defining the political spectrum. Are we talking the section of the spectrum between Infrared and FM radio? Or that place, on the great circle of political stupidity, where the extremes at both ends meet?

Or is it at the point of Bob?

I am thinking, even more than the far left, the Republican National Committee REALLY wanted him to "stay and fight". Maybe they called him.

92 Perplexed  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:26:12am

re: #61 BigPapa

I am 'perplexed' at why you classify Zombie's work 'disturbing.' Please elaborate.

I would have hoped that a person selected by a sitting president would volunteer up information to that president that could possibly be used against the selectee, in this case Van Jones. Either that information wasn't asked for by the administration (IMHO a bad idea) or Van Jones left off some of his more extreme views (IMHO lying by omission). Given the ability to track down the dirt on nearly everyone someone going into any administration these days must be squeaky clean.

93 MandyManners  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:26:30am

re: #84 Charles

They're going after Cass Sunstein next. Beck sent out the word on Twitter feed to his followers to dig up every bit of dirt they could find on him.

I have stuff about Sunstein that I got here ages ago.

94 Kronocide  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:27:16am

Cass Sunstein and John Holdren have some problems, not sure if they're as bad as Van Jones. But then again, the people spearheading the dialog about these people have some problems themselves.

Results, negated.

95 Chekote  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:27:31am

re: #83 Walter L. Newton

I think the real question is who will be Obama's next victim under the bus? It appears that Obama's weak administration is it's own biggest downfall. Sigh.


Same thing. You say potaTO. I say poTAto...

96 debutaunt  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:27:37am

re: #51 quickjustice

You basic premise is correct, but why hire the guy in the first place if you're going to dump him over the side at the first sign of trouble?

Semms to be in the realm of 'sort of paying off' a debt.

97 jayzee  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:27:43am

What I don't understand is that we keep hearing how hard the vetting process is, but his appointees...
The hit list hing is crazy, I hope they fail, but the media should really be paying attention when these guys get their jobs. Why isn't the MSM doing any investigating?

98 Randall Gross  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:27:49am

I'm going to keep saying this: with elections 14 months out it's Pelosi, Reid, and Waxman who need to be on the griddle, not Obama appointees. That's going to fall on deaf ears however since the Republican party has always been too fixated on the executive branch. It's their biggest failing.

99 avanti  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:27:52am

re: #84 Charles

They're going after Cass Sunstein next. Beck sent out the word on Twitter feed to his followers to dig up every bit of dirt they could find on him.

Here's a washingtonindependent.com...]>link./a>

100 mrbaracuda  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:28:08am

Evening lizard people!
What I don't understand is, if it's all lies and yadda yadda, then why resign? Idiot. I guess the Democrats really do fail at, well, doing stuff. :-D

101 Desert Dog  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:28:18am

This truther nonsense sounds like he was tricked into signing that document. But, come on, this guy was a commie after the dismantling of the Berlin Wall, after the fall of the Soviet Union and the breaking up of the Warsaw Pact, after China became more market oriented. He thought it was the true path to political nirvana when most of the world, with the exception of Cuba and North Korea, had already rejected it. At one time, he thought Chairman Mao was a great guy. CHAIRMAN MAO!!! Van Jones should not have been anywhere near this job.

102 Salamantis  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:28:24am

Van Jones:

"I cannot in good conscience ask my colleagues to expend precious time and energy defending or explaining my past. We need all hands on deck, fighting for the future.”

Okay, fair enough. But what kind of future does Van the Man who converted to Communism in the '90's because of the Rodney King verdict strive for?

Judging from his past comments...

"Right now we're saying we want to move from suicidal gray capitalism to some kind of eco-capitalism where, you know, at least we're not — you know fast-tracking the destruction of the whole planet.

Will that be enough? No, it won't be enough. We want to go beyond excess and exploitation and oppression altogether, but that's a process."

...his ultimate goal was to leave excessive, exploitative, oppressive capitalism itself behind. "From each according to his ability; to each according to his need", and alla that...

Not the kind of future I wanna fight for. In fact, precisely the sorta future I wanna fight against.

103 Bloodnok  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:29:03am

re: #98 Thanos

I'm going to keep saying this: with elections 14 months out it's Pelosi, Reid, and Waxman who need to be on the griddle, not Obama appointees. That's going to fall on deaf ears however since the Republican party has always been too fixated on the executive branch. It's their biggest failing.

Yes. What the hell are they doing about Congress?

Nothing.

104 [deleted]  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:29:07am
105 solomonpanting  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:29:10am

re: #85 sattv4u2

(repost, now that it's not OT)

So I leave here (work) at 11 p.m. last night, and as I pull inot the driveway at just about midnight hear the breaking news re: Van Jones. I have to give kudos to the Obama team for
A) cutting their losses instead of stubbornly hanging on to him
B) their impeccable timing (Saturday/Sunday midnight ,,,Holiday weekend). By the time Tuesday comes along this is old news. Todays talking head shows will have to discuss it, but viewership is way down this morning for the last weekend (long) of the summer

I doubt much of America will even notice


RAHM ,,, YOU MAGNIFICENT BASTARD (grudgingly)

Perhaps it wouldn't have mattered when news of Jones's resignation hit the airwaves. This from a couple days ago:

On the bright side for The White House, the larger mainstream media hasn't really picked up the story yet. Political Reporter Byron York over at National Review has done a little research. See below from his column:

From a Nexis search a few moments ago:

Total words about the Van Jones controversy in the New York Times: 0.
Total words about the Van Jones controversy in the Washington Post: 0.
Total words about the Van Jones controversy on NBC Nightly News: 0.
Total words about the Van Jones controversy on ABC World News: 0.
Total words about the Van Jones controversy on CBS Evening News: 0.

106 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:29:32am

re: #48 quickjustice

the protests are genuine grassroots

What?

107 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:29:39am

Good grief. Here we go again.

108 mrbaracuda  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:29:56am

Hey Charles! *rattles his tail*

109 MandyManners  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:30:15am

re: #93 MandyManners

I have stuff about Sunstein that I got here ages ago.

He's married to Samantha Powers.

Cass Sunstein, a Harvard Law professor who has been appointed to a shadowy post that will grant him powers that are merely mind-boggling, explicitly supports using the courts to impose a "chilling effect" on speech that might hurt someone's feelings. He thinks that the bloggers have been rampaging out of control and that new laws need to be written to corral them.

Advance copies of Sunstein's new book, "On Rumors: How Falsehoods Spread, Why We Believe Them, What Can Be Done," have gone out to reviewers ahead of its September publication date, but considering the prominence with which Sunstein is about to be endowed, his worrying views are fair game now. Sunstein is President Obama's choice to head the White House Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs. It's the bland titles that should scare you the most.

"Although obscure," reported the Wall Street Journal, "the post wields outsize power. It oversees regulations throughout the government, from the Environmental Protection Agency to the Occupational Safety and Health Administration. Obama aides have said the job will be crucial as the new administration overhauls financial-services regulations, attempts to pass universal health care and tries to forge a new approach to controlling emissions of greenhouse gases."

SNIP

[Link: www.nypost.com...]

110 [deleted]  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:30:27am
111 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:30:28am

re: #92 Perplexed

I suspect the real issue is arrogance. The Obamoids believed whole-heartedly that they had a "mandate" from the "People" in the sense that a Latin American Caudillo does after a successful coup. The notion that the administration would not, either through its presumed lock on the MSM or on account of the genuine desire of the "People" for his policies would not be able to weather the storm probably never occurred to them.

"I know these people -- they support my policies and I value their insights. And no intelligent, thoughtful, caring, progressive, committed, righteous, socially-conscious person ought to have the slightest hesitation in trusting those people I appoint to high office."

112 Pianobuff  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:30:42am

re: #93 MandyManners

I have stuff about Sunstein that I got here ages ago.

What the hell happened in the vetting process? I'm really starting to wonder.

One alternative is that it failed.

The other end of the spectrum would be that the vetting process worked just fine and these appointees are ideological soulmates of Obama.

I find either of these scenarios disturbing.

113 Bloodnok  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:31:08am

re: #110 born conservative

Thank God for Glenn Beck

Thank G-d for Stinky Beaumont.

114 Kronocide  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:31:11am

re: #92 Perplexed

Given the ability to track down the dirt on nearly everyone someone going into any administration these days must be squeaky clean.

That's a lament I hear often but it's not relevant. Nobody is squeaky clean: look at Obama, Hillary, Kennedy, Bush (any): an acceptable patina of mis-statements or mistakes can show the human side. I would say it's harder to hide malfeasance or personality traits than it used to, and that's a good thing. But this sounds too much like there's a problem here, that people have to be perfect, thereby, it's impossible.

I don't buy it at all.

Look at the people still in office despite what we all know.

115 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:31:12am

re: #110 born conservative

And for that, you can just go support Glenn Beck somewhere else.

116 MandyManners  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:31:14am

re: #109 MandyManners

Buzz posted the above.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

117 Chekote  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:31:15am

re: #87 Charles

Here's the hit list that's going around conservative mailing lists:

This has the potential of a major backfire. It reminds me of Clinton when the GOP in the end came across as more interested in scandals than governing. We would have lost Congress earlier if it weren't for 9/11 and the Dems "blame America" response to it.

118 jaunte  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:31:24am

re: #109 MandyManners

...explicitly supports using the courts to impose a "chilling effect" on speech that might hurt someone's feelings. He thinks that the bloggers have been rampaging out of control and that new laws need to be written to corral them.


Sounds a little like Bill O'Reilly.

119 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:31:39am

re: #73 Pianobuff

How prevalent is MSM coverage of the Van Jones resignation? Will the general public hear much about this or will it remain an inside baseball kind of thing within the blogosphere?

Anybody watch the Sunday shows? Was it covered?

Front page of every news source online that I've clicked to.

120 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:31:42am

re: #110 born conservative

Putting on my protective glasses. I don;'t want my irises burnt when you implode!

121 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:31:52am

re: #10 spacejesus

i'll take his job

I would take you over him any day...

122 MandyManners  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:32:20am

Oven's buzzing.

123 pat  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:32:48am

re: #76 Charles

I don't think he denied signing something. He may not even remember what he signed, which I think is why he was careful with his language. Here is the Wikipedia entry on the subject, which I looked up for background:

In 2004, Jones was one of "100 notable Americans" who signed a "911 Truth Statement" from 911Truth.org. The statement called "for immediate public attention to unanswered questions that suggest that people within the current administration may indeed have deliberately allowed 9/11 to happen, perhaps as a pretext for war."[42]

On September 3, 2009, Jones issued a statement regarding the "incendiary" petition stating, "I do not agree with this statement and it certainly does not reflect my views now or ever."[43]

Senator Kit Bond (R-Missouri) urged Congress to investigate Jones' "fitness" for the position, writing in an open letter, "Can the American people trust a senior White House official that is so cavalier in his association with such radical and repugnant sentiments?" Senator John Cornyn (R-Texas) added his voice as chairman of the National Republican Senatorial Committee.[44]

Not that I believe in Wikipedia so much. But it does point out what you have been saying: the GOP fixated on this rather than his admitted radical political beliefs of the early 90s and Green Collar make over of the nation.

124 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:33:10am

re: #122 MandyManners

Oven's buzzing.

Baking buzzed is baking drunk.

125 Pianobuff  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:33:29am

re: #119 SanFranciscoZionist

Front page of every news source online that I've clicked to.

Thanks for the info!

126 Athos  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:33:34am

re: #98 Thanos

No disagreement from me on this - the challenge is, Pelosi and Waxman are safe, their districts will reliably continue to vote for them pretty much regardless of what they do as long as they remain hard left. Reid, on the other hand, is not doing well in the polls in Nevada and could very well face defeat Nov '10.

The GOP needs to focus on several steps if they wish to capitalize on the discontent with the D - a) isolate and eliminate the influence of the right wing fringe from the primary positions of the GOP (no birchers, nirthers, paulians, beckians, and 4409'ers and their assorted ilk), b) focus on the discontent with Congress and the inept Democrat leadership in Congress, and c) create and honor a new contract with America - including new GOP leadership based on traditional center-right values.

127 karmic_inquisitor  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:33:35am

re: #84 Charles

They're going after Cass Sunstein next. Beck sent out the word on Twitter feed to his followers to dig up every bit of dirt they could find on him.

That is sad because Sustein is not of the rabid ideologue variety.

I don't go for his ideas on "soft paternalism" because paternalism is paternalism.

he is also a guy who hasn't always thought through his positions - I read an interview months back where he got caught up on "cyber balkinization".

He wants to devise ways to have people have to see more variety of opinion on the web, which is laudable. But then he was asked what he has looked at in the last few days and it was Kos, HuffPo and some satellites. A bit of a touche.

Anyway, he doesn't strike me as a frothing ideologue - more of an idealistic academic.

128 Lincolntf  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:33:35am

re: #112 Pianobuff

That's the $64,000 question right there.

129 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:34:00am

re: #123 pat

Not that I believe in Wikipedia so much.

I'm thinking of heading over there now and adding "in bed" to various articles.

130 Salamantis  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:34:04am

re: #109 MandyManners

Cass Sunstein, a Harvard Law professor who has been appointed to a shadowy post that will grant him powers that are merely mind-boggling, explicitly supports using the courts to impose a "chilling effect" on speech that might hurt someone's feelings. He thinks that the bloggers have been rampaging out of control and that new laws need to be written to corral them.

Sounds kinda like the Canadian Human Rights Commission that gave Ezra Levant and Mark Steyn so much grief.

131 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:34:21am

re: #119 SanFranciscoZionist

Front page of every news source online that I've clicked to.

Sunday of the last summer holiday weekend, 1st weekend of college footabll, todays papers and news shows are very sparsley viewed. And as I stated above, by Tuesday OLD NEWS (please see #85 above)

132 Perplexed  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:34:24am

re: #111 Lucius Septimius

I suspect the real issue is arrogance. The Obamoids believed whole-heartedly that they had a "mandate" from the "People" in the sense that a Latin American Caudillo does after a successful coup. The notion that the administration would not, either through its presumed lock on the MSM or on account of the genuine desire of the "People" for his policies would not be able to weather the storm probably never occurred to them.

"I know these people -- they support my policies and I value their insights. And no intelligent, thoughtful, caring, progressive, committed, righteous, socially-conscious person ought to have the slightest hesitation in trusting those people I appoint to high office."

A 52% majority is by no means a mandate. A 95% for vote and up might be a mandate if we knew that the ballot box/vote counting wasn't tampered with. I wish that politicians would stop believing their own propoganda.

133 debutaunt  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:34:26am

re: #72 BigPapa

Well, at first isn't it fair game to point out that he was a signatory to that Troofer link? If I saw it I'd post it. After that point (and the realization, at least for me, that site was a joke), there's no excuse for it.

If people knew that site was a hoax and not credible but brought it up anyway then you are absolutely right. I think it's a minor contention in light of all the aftermath.

When people are searching for pro or con information, they occasionally hope the news on the Onion is true.

134 subsailor68  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:34:55am

Afternoon all! Charles just happens to be absolutely spot-on in his reading of the Jones situation. I'm sure many folks have seen the Breitbart article (based on AP reporting - which also shows up on MSNBC.com, etc.) linked from Drudge:

Obama 'green jobs' adviser quits amid controversy

No real mention of Jones' more controversial views, just noting his remarks about Republicans and a focus on the troofer petition.

So, Charles is right - folks who only read this, and similar reports, will know little of Jones' actual issues (the things Charles listed when he said he wouldn't shed tears if Jones left), but a great deal about what turned out to be nothing but a smear campaign.

135 mrbaracuda  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:34:59am

re: #87 Charles

Here's the hit list that's going around conservative mailing lists:

I joined a German facebook group made by a German lawyer who is a self-declared, self-styled German neo-conservative (hence the group's name "Neocon 2.0") and received this message a day ago:

Subject: Good News - Van Jones Gone. Now the Prez...

Accompanied by a FOX News link to an article about the resignation of Jones. Brrr. :-D

136 jayzee  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:35:31am

I still can't understand why President Obama would make a previously self described communist a czar, much less one for green jobs.

137 Chekote  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:35:33am

Let's look on the bright side. The Left will go after Beck full force. They may manage to get rid of him for us.

138 calcajun  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:35:38am

re: #76 Charles

I'm not taking anyone's word for it. But if your name appears on a document that you either never signed, or your signature was obtained by fraud, there are various legal remedies available that would provide immediate relief. Parties so aggrieved could have sought injunctions and restraining orders which would have enjoined the use of their name on the petition. Depending on when they found out about it, what they did to protect themselves thereafter and how long they waited before going to court, most courts (especially here in CA) would not have any qualms about issuing an order enjoining the use of someone's name or likeness pending a full hearing/trial on the merits.

A person can complain that they have been a victim of "bait and switch", or that their name was misappropriated. But if they do nothing to protect their rights in such an instance--starting from when they're first informed that their name or image is associated with such a publication-- then there is a rebuttable presumption that they agree with, or at least condone, the use of their name.

I do not know when Jones signed the document, learned of the misuse of his name, or what specific steps he took to seek redress. Besides, the point is now moot. But, the lesson is this; the law frowns on people who sit on their rights. If anyone is victimized like this, you cannot wait for the people who wronged you to do something--you have to act.

139 sagehen  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:35:54am

re: #97 jayzee

but the media should really be paying attention when these guys get their jobs. Why isn't the MSM doing any investigating?

1. They're lazy.

2. Accountants have cut the newsroom staff down to a skeleton crew. They don't do investigations.

Overseas bureaus, beat reporters, copy editors, investigative teams, these are all a thing of the past.

140 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:35:55am

re: #89 Bloodnok

Because this is when it happened. This story is only a few days old. And no, it's not a win for Obama so they would want to make it go away to prove it is not worthy of the hysteria it has generated and to shut the smear merchants up (because people are obviously buying the troofer crap). They are buckling as they have done in the past and may continue to do. That does not mean it still won't be a net loss for the GOP.

I see him as a minor player, forgotten. Awful pick, but don't see how this is going to haunt the GOP coming back.
Do they really want to bring up how a self-proclaimed Communist, years after the Wall fell, was smeared by signing a document that wasn't what it was led to be ?
Dunno. Time will tell.

141 itellu3times  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:36:00am

re: #112 Pianobuff

What the hell happened in the vetting process? I'm really starting to wonder.

One alternative is that it failed.

The other end of the spectrum would be that the vetting process worked just fine and these appointees are ideological soulmates of Obama.

I find either of these scenarios disturbing.

I think you will find the common thread is that these are all people who are clean and articulate, respected in ivory-tower environments, and outside of running their mouths have never accomplished anything in their lives.

/sound like anybody?

//actually, sounds not too different from me, ... wonder if there are any slots open in DC these days?

142 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:36:20am

re: #137 Chekote

Let's look on the bright side. The Left will go after Beck full force. They may manage to get rid of him for us.

That isn't good. Why not bloggers?

143 Kronocide  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:36:27am

re: #133 debutaunt

When people are searching for pro or con information, they occasionally hope the news on the Onion is true.

You mean... The Onion is not true? WTF?

144 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:36:42am

Another one down...

and only half of the 500 positions at cabinet level have been filled...
Obama’s Team Is Lacking Most of Its Top Players

Of more than 500 senior policymaking positions requiring Senate confirmation, just 43 percent have been filled — a reflection of a White House that grew more cautious after several nominations blew up last spring, a Senate that is intensively investigating nominees and a legislative agenda that has consumed both.

Must suck background checking an entourage of radicals...

145 [deleted]  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:36:53am
146 Chekote  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:36:59am

re: #142 Cannadian Club Akbar

Sorry. Don't understand your point.

147 Flyers1974  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:37:02am

re: #66 Bloodnok

He will. A lot of the comments I see on right wing blogs make it sound as though "We got Obama!". No, they didn't. And if this is the best they can do, Obama's going to be just fine.

Come election time people who could potentially be swayed to the right (the people needed to win elections) will not remember Van Jones and if reminded will probably be more inclined to remember the hysteria and lies provided by the right.

And there will be more of this. Much more. These people feel their lies and smears are justified now -and they work. The GOP will not be the party of "no" but the party of froth. And without a solid platform and alternative plans (other than picking off advisors the general public hardly cares about until the hysteria sets in) the results are going to be pretty dismal.

On the other hand, the volume of attacks over time, even if mostly baseless or eggagerated, may lead to people growing sick of Obama and just want someone different. Afterall, we are what, 7 months into his presidency? A different situation of course, but even people who liked Clinton were weary of him after a while.

148 debutaunt  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:37:15am

re: #76 Charles

Amazing. After everything I posted, people still want to believe the Truthers.

Several of the people on that document have come forward and said they were misled into signing it. One of them, Rachel Ehrenfeld, had her name placed on the document completely without her knowledge.

But you're still going to take the word of the Truthers, despite the fact that there is no statement anywhere from Van Jones supporting Trutherism?

It's so foolish and avoids using all the valid information available.

149 Desert Dog  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:37:16am

re: #137 Chekote

Let's look on the bright side. The Left will go after Beck full force. They may manage to get rid of him for us.

Let's hope it's a struggle to the "death" and they both lose

150 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:37:25am

re: #138 calcajun

I'm not sure why you're assuming that Jones even knew his name was listed on that website.

I know you really really want to believe he's a Truther, but the simple plain fact is that there is NO evidence for this. If he were, he would have made statements about it.

He didn't.

151 calcajun  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:37:50am

re: #115 Charles

In the words of Greg House:
"Idiots are fun. That's why every village wants one."

152 itellu3times  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:37:53am

re: #127 karmic_inquisitor

Do I read that he wants to have organ donation the default instead of requiring you to approve it?

/something about starting brain before putting mouth in gear

153 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:38:00am

re: #126 Athos

Agreed in general; the sticking point will be this:

create and honor a new contract with America - including new GOP leadership based on traditional center-right values.

Absolutely the GOP needs to offer some alternative to Hopy-Change. The question, though, is whether they can rise above simple demagoguery and put together a "contract" that actually contains concrete workable (politically within the party and potentially across the aisle) proposals that address real, not imaginary problems. The current level of discourse suggest not, but it's not impossible. Of course, that depends on who ends up defining what the "traditional center-right" values are.

One additional thought -- there needs to be enough wiggle room to adapt to local language. A Republican in Illinois would be a Democrat in my state.

154 Randall Gross  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:38:22am

re: #126 Athos

Their seats are safe, their leadership positions are not assured. The West Coast dems need to go down in congress, and we should be working to effect that. Florida and NY have no real say in the furtherance of the Dem agenda, it's an "unfair" regional power split and the Republicans need to exploit that.

155 ted  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:38:31am

“On the eve of historic fights for health care and clean energy,[Translate: False Anticipation] opponents of reform have mounted a vicious smear campaign against me,”[Translate: Paranoia] Jones, special adviser for green jobs at the White House Council on Environmental Quality, said in a statement announcing his resignation just after midnight Sunday. “They are using lies and distortions to distract and divide.”[Translate: Persecuting Me]

He continued: “I have been inundated with calls — from across the political spectrum[Translate: Grandiosity] — urging me to ‘stay and fight.’ But I came here to fight for others, not for myself[Translate: Projection]. I cannot in good conscience ask my colleagues to expend precious time and energy defending or explaining my past. We need all hands on deck, fighting for the future.”[Translate: Guilt]

156 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:38:32am

Anyone ever notice that Glenn Beck's most ardent admirers tend to be complete idiots?

157 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:38:32am

re: #146 Chekote

Sorry. Don't understand your point.

If the left goes after Beck, why not go after anyone who doesn't have the same point of view as those on the left?

158 Desert Dog  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:39:26am

re: #152 itellu3times

Do I read that he wants to have organ donation the default instead of requiring you to approve it?

/something about starting brain before putting mouth in gear

I am an organ donor and I encourage you all to be as well. But, that's a personal decision, ain't it?

159 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:39:27am

re: #145 MikeySDCA

That's vandalism.

If I can get an NEA grant for it, it's "Art."

160 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:39:31am

The ice cream truck in my neighborhood plays this...
-Stephen Wright

161 [deleted]  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:40:22am
162 MacDuff  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:40:26am

The fact is that Jones' own words sunk him; no lies, no distortions and nothing taken out of context. That he is claiming otherwise, now brands him as a liar in addition to being a racialist radical.

Some people are incapable of admitting fault, even in the face of overwhelming evidence. To them, it's always the misinterpretation of others rather than their own words. In their minds, they are forever misunderstood martyrs, rather than hate mongers being held to account for their own statements and beliefs.

Van Jones' horizons have always been viewed through the prism of race and this setback will do nothing to clear his vision. Alas, we have not heard the last of him and his future statements will likely be no less impolitic than those of his past.

163 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:40:28am

re: #132 Perplexed

A 52% majority is by no means a mandate. A 95% for vote and up might be a mandate if we knew that the ballot box/vote counting wasn't tampered with. I wish that politicians would stop believing their own propoganda.

That would require them putting down the mirror they're smooching long enough to look in it.

164 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:40:37am

re: #152 itellu3times

Do I read that he wants to have organ donation the default instead of requiring you to approve it?

What is wrong with that? Not judging you, just asking. People need transplants and the grand majority of people don't donate, thus causing a lot more deaths, even of children.

I've always ticked the donation box. I'll be dead, what do I care? Plug, it's nice to think my death could help someone else.

165 jaunte  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:41:24am

re: #156 Charles

Gallagher and Carrot Top had a following, too.

166 Last Mohican  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:41:31am

re: #6 Charles

They did use lies against him. He's right about that.

There were plenty of genuine reasons to criticize him, but it was a smear and a distortion that really pulled him down.

Charles - I'm interested in your opinion on this. By "smear and distortion" I think you mean the lie that Jones is a truther, right? Do you think that's what finally brought him down? My sense was that what killed Jones' future was all of the dirt that was being dug up about his radical past, much of it (unfortunately) most effectively publicized via Glenn Beck's hysterical ranting. I can't imagine the truther thing would have really stuck to Jones. It was very easy to refute.

167 BryanS  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:41:49am

re: #156 Charles

Anyone ever notice that Glenn Beck's most ardent admirers tend to be complete idiots?

Yes...and I found myself conflicted about listening to Olberman's countdown ridiculing Beck's "Rockafeller Center was erected by commies" segment, and agreeing with Olberman! There is indeed a disturbance in the force .

168 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:42:12am

re: #164 Diego

Adding: It was making it an opt-out rather than an opt-in. People still had the choice.

169 rwmofo  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:42:13am

Didn't Van Jones spend time in jail? While the MSM has ignored Jones until he resigned, it seems like they (followed by democrats) would be all over a Republican appointee who had a record.

170 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:42:13am

re: #166 Last Mohican

Charles - I'm interested in your opinion on this. By "smear and distortion" I think you mean the lie that Jones is a truther, right? Do you think that's what finally brought him down? My sense was that what killed Jones' future was all of the dirt that was being dug up about his radical past, much of it (unfortunately) most effectively publicized via Glenn Beck's hysterical ranting. I can't imagine the truther thing would have really stuck to Jones. It was very easy to refute.

Yes, absolutely it was the Truther smear that brought him down. All you need to do is read the reporting to see it.

171 [deleted]  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:42:25am
172 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:42:34am

re: #164 Diego

What is wrong with that? Not judging you, just asking. People need transplants and the grand majority of people don't donate, thus causing a lot more deaths, even of children.

I've always ticked the donation box. I'll be dead, what do I care? Plug, it's nice to think my death could help someone else.

Oy ,,,

People have long held religious beleifs about their bodies and an afterlife!

I am a card carrying organ donor and it's alsdo in my will. That does NOT mean I want it mandated for others!

173 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:43:02am

Zombie nailed it out of the park a couple of threads back where he/she witnessed Van Jones in person. The dude dug his own pit and fell in.

174 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:43:35am

re: #172 sattv4u2

See my #168

175 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:43:47am

re: #172 sattv4u2

Oy ,,,

People have long held religious beleifs about their bodies and an afterlife!

I am a card carrying organ donor and it's alsdo in my will. That does NOT mean I want it mandated for others!

The idea is it's only going to be mandated by the government until you opt out. No problem.
///

176 Idle Drifter  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:43:49am

re: #136 jayzee

Which is why the Obama Administration is going to great lengths to control the narrative that he, Jones, resigned over the Truther smear.

177 Desert Dog  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:44:01am

re: #164 Diego

What is wrong with that? Not judging you, just asking. People need transplants and the grand majority of people don't donate, thus causing a lot more deaths, even of children.

I've always ticked the donation box. I'll be dead, what do I care? Plug, it's nice to think my death could help someone else.

I think everyone should check that box too, but you will run into some serious trouble if you make it mandatory.

I will no use for my organs once i am dead. Why not let someone else use them if they can? But, make it a choice.

178 subsailor68  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:44:06am

re: #134 subsailor68

re: #170 Charles

Yes, absolutely it was the Truther smear that brought him down. All you need to do is read the reporting to see it.

Absolutely. That was exactly my point in #134, and why I posted the link to Breitbart. It makes your point precisely.

179 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:44:10am

re: #171 MikeySDCA

Race is Van Jones's profession, his career, his only claim to fame, his meal ticket.

Oh please. Look, I'm no fan of Van Jones, as I have to keep pointing out so that people won't assume otherwise. But the guy has achieved a lot in his life. You may not agree with his politics but it's pretty low to say that his race is his only claim to fame.

180 Last Mohican  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:44:59am

re: #170 Charles

Yes, absolutely it was the Truther smear that brought him down. All you need to do is read the reporting to see it.

That would be incredibly unfortunate. The man had no business being anywhere near a presidentially appointed position, for a hundred reasons, and yet the thing that kept him away was a lie.

Sort of like how Obama tried to ram a problematic health care bill through congress, which should have failed for a hundred reasons, but in the end it failed because of stupid lies about "death panels."

This is such a sad period in American politics.

181 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:45:09am

re: #177 Desert Dog

I left a line out. See my #168

It was always an option, never a mandate. Opt-out rather than opt-in.

182 sagehen  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:45:16am

re: #169 rwmofo

Didn't Van Jones spend time in jail? While the MSM has ignored Jones until he resigned, it seems like they (followed by democrats) would be all over a Republican appointee who had a record.

He was picked up in one of those mass arrests at a protest, and everyone was let go the next day with no charges.

183 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:45:52am

re: #180 Last Mohican

That would be incredibly unfortunate. The man had no business being anywhere near a presidentially appointed position, for a hundred reasons, and yet the thing that kept him away was a lie.

Sort of like how Obama tried to ram a problematic health care bill through congress, which should have failed for a hundred reasons, but in the end it failed because of stupid lies about "death panels."

This is such a sad period in American politics.

All of these lies are piling up, and they're going to backfire.

184 jaunte  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:45:57am

re: #171 MikeySDCA

The reason he was appointed to that job, whatever you might think of it, is that he understood poor people (many of them black) should also be interested in conservation, alternate energy and related 'green' enterprise in the future.

185 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:45:58am

re: #174 Diego

See my #168

You were responding to Do I read that he wants to have organ donation the default .

Default,,, DEFAULT!

186 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:46:19am

re: #173 Oh no...Sand People!

Zombie nailed it out of the park a couple of threads back where he/she witnessed Van Jones in person. The dude dug his own pit and fell in.

And even though Zombie wasn't able to supply a lot of details in this case, as it could compromise Zombies ability to dig up the truth in the future, I would certainly believe Zombie before I would believe in anything the Truthers claim.

187 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:46:25am

re: #182 sagehen

He was picked up in one of those mass arrests at a protest, and everyone was let go the next day with no charges.

I think he did actual time in the early '90's.

188 Pianobuff  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:47:20am

re: #173 Oh no...Sand People!

Zombie nailed it out of the park a couple of threads back where he/she witnessed Van Jones in person. The dude dug his own pit and fell in.

I wonder if the stuff Zombie said he/she leaked will bubble up. If Z's claims are true, in the event that the storyline becomes one of "Van Jones is as pure as white snow and if not for the truther smears he'd still be around", could there be more stuff yet to come on Dr. "Kanye Was Right" Jones?

189 Athos  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:47:30am

re: #154 Thanos

That would be an interesting tack to take - focus on the regional aspect of the lefft power spectrum. The problem with that is within the D party itself...and annointed by the President when he touts California as a model for the rest of the country.

The other aspect is that the left remains focused on obtaining and executing power - and that is precisely the problem since they demonstrate little focus towards compromise. The smartest move the D's can make towards leadership is to consider moving a blue dog or two to clear leadership positions, like Speaker, or Majority Leader (Bayh?) and softening the press towards remaking the country. If they do that and the GOP remains the party of 'not them' and welcoming the fringe, then the GOP stay in the minority will last quite a long time.

Think of the process as a marathon as opposed a sprint...that is how the Administration should be working it.

190 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:47:34am

re: #185 sattv4u2

Oh, right. Well, I agree with it. You still have a choice, you can choose not to. It's a good thing not a bad thing. And at the end of the day the family can still nix the donation scheme.

191 Red Pencil  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:47:47am

Cass Sunstein on 1st Amendment:

In his book Democracy and the Problem of Free Speech Sunstein says there is a need to reformulate First Amendment law. He thinks that the current formulation, based on Justice Holmes' conception of free speech as a marketplace “disserves the aspirations of those who wrote America’s founding document.”[9] The purpose of this reformulation would be to “reinvigorate processes of democratic deliberation, by ensuring greater attention to public issues and greater diversity of views.”[10] He is concerned by the present “situation in which like-minded people speak or listen mostly to one another,”[11] and thinks that in “light of astonishing economic and technological changes, we must doubt whether, as interpreted, the constitutional guarantee of free speech is adequately serving democratic goals.”[12] He proposes a “New Deal for speech [that] would draw on Justice Brandeis' insistence on the role of free speech in promoting political deliberation and citizenship.”[10]

May be just me, but I don't see what could possibly be good or necessary about a "New Deal" for speech that "guarantee[s] free speech is adequately serving democratic goals." (Which democratic goals, or should that be whose?)

192 Last Mohican  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:48:05am

re: #187 Cannadian Club Akbar

I think he did actual time in the early '90's.

I haven't been able to find anything other than his arrest at a Rodney King protest. I also haven't been able to find out anything about what he was actually doing at that protest that was considered illegal.

193 calcajun  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:48:22am

re: #150 Charles

I know you really really want to believe he's a Truther,

That's an unfair characterization of what I'm saying--and you are making an incorrect assumption. I don't care--either then or now--if he was a truther. I had no dog in the hunt, so to speak. My general point was in regard to what people --public persons especially--need to do if and when they discover their name is linked with a group with who's position they disagree.

Irrespective of the substance, if the website had his name listed while he was being vetted, then someone in the WH should have seen it. It's sloppy work if they did not. It's questionable if (and I say "if") they did and nothing was done.

The whole affair reflects badly on the WH and BHO. First, his staff and their vetting process is suspect. Second, when the WH is called on such appointments, the person is forced to resign-- under some pressure. As I mentioned last night, this has a detrimental effect on the Presidency.

194 BryanS  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:48:24am

What exactly have been Van Jones's achievements--besides being a graduate of an ivy league school? I haven't been following LGF to know what his claim to fame is supposed to be.

195 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:48:24am

Free Mumia !

~Van Jones

Fuck You !

~Me

196 Salamantis  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:48:32am

Paraphrasing Donald Rumsfeld on 'known knowns', etc:

Sometimes the right things happen for the right reasons. Sometimes the wrong things happen for the wrong reasons. Sometimes the wrong things happen for the right reasons. And sometimes the right things happen for the wrong reasons.

197 ted  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:49:16am

re: #171 MikeySDCA

"Race is Van Jones's profession, his career, his only claim to fame, his meal ticket"

A bit overboard and a stereotype.

198 calcajun  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:49:39am

re: #156 Charles

As long as the village to idiot ratio remains 1:1, then we should be OK./

199 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:49:50am

re: #175 Walter L. Newton

The idea is it's only going to be mandated by the government until you opt out. No problem.
///

Heh, that just reminds me of the story I read today by H.P. LoveCraft: 'Herberet West - Reanimator'. The dude does experiments on dead bodies trying to reanimate them...they were never 'fresh enough'. So in his desire for success he actually kills a guy to get a best quality specimen.

Just waiting for the 'spread the wealth' to go to 'spread the health'...preemptive organ donations...

"Just because you are alive doesn't mean it's just or equitable for you to keep your good parts and these poor souls be stuck with their less desirable defects...you were just lucky...and you can benefit the 'greater good'..."

/

200 rwmofo  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:49:52am

re: #192 Last Mohican

I haven't been able to find anything other than his arrest at a Rodney King protest. I also haven't been able to find out anything about what he was actually doing at that protest that was considered illegal.

I thought I read somewhere that he served six months, but I've been poking around for a few minutes and haven't found anything.

201 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:50:17am

re: #180 Last Mohican

That would be incredibly unfortunate. The man had no business being anywhere near a presidentially appointed position, for a hundred reasons, and yet the thing that kept him away was a lie.

Sort of like how Obama tried to ram a problematic health care bill through congress, which should have failed for a hundred reasons, but in the end it failed because of stupid lies about "death panels."

This is such a sad period in American politics.

Has it ever really been all that different, though?

There are no shortage of political lies, and no shortage of issues where the critical decisions made on the public stage. Not that it makes it right, but politics is a dirty game and has always been so.

It would be nice to have the public make decisions based on genuinely thoughtful analysis, to respond with their brains rather than their endocrine system. And, on occasion, it happens. But those are the exceptions.

202 Pianobuff  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:50:19am

re: #196 Salamantis

Paraphrasing Donald Rumsfeld on 'known knowns', etc:

Sometimes the right things happen for the right reasons. Sometimes the wrong things happen for the wrong reasons. Sometimes the wrong things happen for the right reasons. And sometimes the right things happen for the wrong reasons.

And sometimes shit just happens and nobody knows why!

203 Athens Runaway  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:50:27am

re: #127 karmic_inquisitor

Anyway, he doesn't strike me as a frothing ideologue - more of an idealistic academic.

Yeah, he's quite the political moderate...

In what sense is the money in our pockets and bank accounts fully ‘ours’?

...we should celebrate tax day.

"...before long, Congress will grant standing to animals to protect their own rights and interests."

"We ought to ban hunting.” (2007 speech at Harvard University)

204 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:50:39am

re: #200 rwmofo

I thought I read somewhere that he served six months, but I've been poking around for a few minutes and haven't found anything.

TMI !!!

//

205 jayzee  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:50:49am

re: #156 Charles

Yes. And troofers and Paulians and fans of Buchanan...I miss neocons.
That, besides the lying, is the biggest problem, these morons are getting a real nice seat at the table.

206 [deleted]  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:51:04am
207 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:51:13am

re: #194 BryanS

What exactly have been Van Jones's achievements--besides being a graduate of an ivy league school? I haven't been following LGF to know what his claim to fame is supposed to be.

He sponsored the Green Jobs Act which George W. Bush signed into law, for one thing.

His awards include the Reebok International Human Rights Award, the World Economic Forum's Young Global Leader designation, the Ashoka Fellowship, and many more. He was listed in the Ebony Magazine "Power 150" list of most influential African Americans for 2009.

There's a lot more.

208 Athens Runaway  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:52:22am

re: #203 Athens Runaway

Forgot two of my links. From Cass's own website: Why We Should Celebrate Tax Day

Yep yep yep, he's a moderate all right. Paying taxes is patriotic!
///

209 karmic_inquisitor  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:52:26am

re: #152 itellu3times

Do I read that he wants to have organ donation the default instead of requiring you to approve it?

/something about starting brain before putting mouth in gear

Not certain on that particular item, but there are other examples that he has given in "Q&A" time after presentations that are apt to be used against him.

He is an academic who will search for an off the cuff example for "soft paternalism" (where the government makes a default choice for you, with the default choice being the one that is "good for you and or society") and will end up making some poor examples.

Just on Friday the Obama Admin announced a change to 401 plans that they are doing without need of congressional approval where certain elections (such as increasing contributions) will be made for you automatically and requires you to specifically act on to prevent from happening. That is an example of the Obama Admin implementing "soft paternalism".

[Link: www.usnews.com...]

210 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:52:32am

re: #207 Charles

He sponsored the Green Jobs Act which George W. Bush signed into law, for one thing.

His awards include the Reebok International Human Rights Award, the World Economic Forum's Young Global Leader designation, the Ashoka Fellowship, and many more. He was listed in the Ebony Magazine "Power 150" list of most influential African Americans for 2009.

There's a lot more.

Hmmm,,, maybe now that he's not doing anything we could recruit him for OUR side !!

//

211 jaunte  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:52:35am

re: #206 MikeySDCA

affirmative actioned

Where did you see that part?

212 quickjustice  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:52:43am

re: #106 Diego

The health care protests are genuine grassroots efforts. People are genuinely scared about the health care reform proposals. They are showing up under their own steam, not because the SEIU bussed them in.

213 S'latch  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:53:16am

I was going to comment that I really don't know who Van Jones is. Then, I checked this out on Powerlineblog:

Total words about the Van Jones controversy in the New York Times: 0.
Total words about the Van Jones controversy in the Washington Post: 0.
Total words about the Van Jones controversy on NBC Nightly News: 0.
Total words about the Van Jones controversy on ABC World News: 0.
Total words about the Van Jones controversy on CBS Evening News: 0.

Now that I know those facts, I am less shy about admitting that I really don't know who Van Jones is. I doubt may people do.

214 ted  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:53:19am

re: #206 MikeySDCA

Have you read his Wikipedia article? [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
He didn't get affirmative actioned because he was poor, which he wasn't, but because he was black.

Isn't that what affirmative action is about?

215 Randall Gross  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:53:28am

re: #189 Athos

I think it's just one thing we need to be doing, there are several others but if I spill it here I'll never get over my writing hiatus and finish the series of strategy articles I was writing. At the moment there's too much hysterical political theater over non substantial matters to put the rest of the series forth yet.

216 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:53:31am

re: #193 calcajun

That's an unfair characterization of what I'm saying--and you are making an incorrect assumption. I don't care--either then or now--if he was a truther. I had no dog in the hunt, so to speak. My general point was in regard to what people --public persons especially--need to do if and when they discover their name is linked with a group with who's position they disagree.

Why are you assuming that he even knew his name was listed on that Truther petition? Who hangs around Truther sites looking for their name?

217 pat  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:53:36am

re: #187 Cannadian Club Akbar

Not that I can find. He did mysteriously morph from a legal observer to a protester obnoxious enough to get himself arrested at the King trial. That turned him into a communist. However he has spent most of his life riding the liberal wave of money that follows the cause de jour.

218 karmic_inquisitor  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:54:42am

re: #203 Athens Runaway

"...before long, Congress will grant standing to animals to protect their own rights and interests."

"We ought to ban hunting.” (2007 speech at Harvard University)

Where did I say "political moderate?" I'd like to see that.

219 SixDegrees  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:54:51am

re: #73 Pianobuff

How prevalent is MSM coverage of the Van Jones resignation? Will the general public hear much about this or will it remain an inside baseball kind of thing within the blogosphere?

Anybody watch the Sunday shows? Was it covered?

It's one of the major headlines at CNN; it's been in first or second place all day.

Their take: it was accusations of Trooferism, flogged by the Right Wing, that caused his downfall, despite his denials and the complete lack of evidence.

They're priming the pump for the next round of complaints, so they can be written off as tripe peddled by Bible-thumping, lying morons with a bad case of hysterics.

And sadly, that's not altogether wrong. There were lots of things to criticize Jones for, but Trooferism wasn't one of them, and the Right has shot itself in the foot by providing ample cover to even legitimate opposition.

Look for the next round of health care legislation to feature insane, irrational GOPers prominently as the Dems get a pass on responding to criticism.

220 rwmofo  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:55:25am

re: #204 sattv4u2

TMI !!!

//

Heh.

Reel in the imagination there, amigo.

221 Pianobuff  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:56:49am

re: #216 Charles

Why are you assuming that he even knew his name was listed on that Truther petition? Who hangs around Truther sites looking for their name?

Asking this question reminds me of something I've been wondering about for a while. In the Internet age, I wonder how much vetting takes place by having staff Google stuff endlessly. It seems like that's how many of the gotcha's come up nowadays and I'd be curious to know if it's part of the standard contemporary vetting protocol.

222 Last Mohican  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:57:06am

re: #211 jaunte

Where did you see that part?

A quote from Van Jones' plenary address to the 2007 Institute of Noetic Sciences conference:

I started out in rural West Tennessee, and I got a minority scholarship to go to the University of Tennessee, and I’m going to tell you the truth about it – it wasn’t even my minority scholarship. I have a twin sister… they can’t take it back now, it’s too late – the statute done run out!! I have a twin sister who actually is the brains in the family... And she had this bad habit of doing her homework, and all the colleges and the universities and everything, they wanted my sister, you know. And she said “I’m not gonna go to any of your schools if you don’t accept my brother. You won’t let him come, I’m not coming.” And they gave her a scholarship, and then they gave me a scholarship to get her. So I’m a second-hand affirmative action, pre-legacy admit! So I know what’s possible if you give somebody a chance – I know what’s possible.

223 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:57:10am

Here is my big concern, *dons tinfoil hat*, all this 'tit for tatting' between the parties is leading me to believe they are playing 'cover-up' for some real serious legislation snafu's coming down the pipe that we are missing... I just got some moonbatsense tingles...

/or just that Iran is ready to unload and I am hoping Israel does what it has to do and let's the chips fall where they may.

224 ted  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:57:41am

re: #216 Charles

"Who hangs around Truther sites looking for their name?"

People who watch Cheers reruns?

225 Wirebender  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:57:42am

One down, thirty five to go.

226 jaunte  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:58:18am

re: #222 Last Mohican

So he went on from there to get a law degree at Yale. What a cheater!

227 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:58:21am

re: #223 Oh no...Sand People!

/or just that Iran is ready to unload and I am hoping Israel does what it has to do and let's the chips mad mullahs fall where they may.

ftfy

228 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:59:05am

CLEAN UP ON AISLE 225!

229 Randall Gross  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 10:59:12am

re: #223 Oh no...Sand People!

Here is my big concern, *dons tinfoil hat*, all this 'tit for tatting' between the parties is leading me to believe they are playing 'cover-up' for some real serious legislation snafu's coming down the pipe that we are missing... I just got some moonbatsense tingles...

/or just that Iran is ready to unload and I am hoping Israel does what it has to do and let's the chips fall where they may.

The left lives by smoke and mirrors and the more we pay attention to the sideshow the less we are likely to move to the big tent.

230 Pianobuff  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:00:18am

re: #224 ted

"Who hangs around Truther sites looking for their name?"

People who watch Cheers reruns?

Hey now... Coach dispenses lots of earthy and sage wisdom.

231 Athens Runaway  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:01:21am

re: #218 karmic_inquisitor

Where did I say "political moderate?" I'd like to see that.

You said Cass wasn't a "frothing ideologue" and said he was just a happily misguided egghead... your exact words were "idealistic academic." The opposite of "frothing ideologue" is "political moderate," is it not? If one is claimed to be not a wingnut, you're saying they're moderate-ish.

Note that "frothing ideologue" and "idealistic academic" are not mutually exclusive. There's a good number of "ideologues" who are "idealistic" and "academic."

I'm also confused how you don't consider "give animals legal standing," "ban all hunting," and "we should pay our taxes and like it, damnit!" to be frothy beliefs that are outside of mainstream political thought. Just because he's a professor doesn't mean he doesn't hold crazy beliefs.

232 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:01:30am

re: #186 Walter L. Newton

And even though Zombie wasn't able to supply a lot of details in this case, as it could compromise Zombies ability to dig up the truth in the future, I would certainly believe Zombie before I would believe in anything the Truthers claim.

There's something strange happening here.
Zombies' credibility seems to be in question to some around here all of a sudden.
Never saw work by Z that wasn't meticulous and thorough.

I speak for only me.

233 [deleted]  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:01:42am
234 calcajun  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:02:39am

re: #216 Charles

Not him--the people who vetted him. Aren't they supposed to make sure there is no skeleton in the nominee's closet--and defuse it before it becomes a problem?

Again, he may very well have a legal action against the people who run the site. It all would depend on when his name appeared and when he first knew of it. I don't presume to know the answers to these questions, but it would be part of the first client interview.

Anyway-- I am at the office and want to spend time with the family--gotta stop talking about the law for free and get back to the money-paying, food-buying kind.

Later.

235 [deleted]  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:02:59am
236 pat  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:03:06am

Hmmm
Missing channel pirate ship carried Russian arms for Iran
[Link: www.timesonline.co.uk...]

The official version was challenged by sources in Tel Aviv and Moscow who claimed the ship had been loaded with S-300 missiles, Russia’s most advanced anti-aircraft weapon, while undergoing repairs in the Russian port of Kaliningrad.

What were those missiles doing in Kaliningrad in the first place, I wonder?

237 rwmofo  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:03:22am

Newbusters quotes, OK, wait for it, Glenn Beck claiming that Van Jones served six months.

"This guy wasn't a radical, and then was arrested. He spent six months in jail, came out a communist."

So this is one right-wing web site quoting Beck, which doesn't really prove anything. If this is true, however, my opinion is that the MSM would be screaming and slobbering if Jones were a Republican.

238 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:03:41am

Unreal.

239 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:04:06am

re: #236 pat

Hmmm
Missing channel pirate ship carried Russian arms for Iran
[Link: www.timesonline.co.uk...]

What were those missiles doing in Kaliningrad in the first place, I wonder?

They were studying Kant. He lived there, you know.

240 SixDegrees  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:04:36am

re: #221 Pianobuff

Asking this question reminds me of something I've been wondering about for a while. In the Internet age, I wonder how much vetting takes place by having staff Google stuff endlessly. It seems like that's how many of the gotcha's come up nowadays and I'd be curious to know if it's part of the standard contemporary vetting protocol.

Internet searches of various types are common in hiring these days. I have no doubt they're used for vetting purposes, as well.

The problem, exemplified well in this particular case, is how deep you want to bother digging. Most of the useful information about anyone is going to appear in the first page or two of results - digging farther than that, normally, all you encounter is noise. Here, we have a single occurrence of Jones' name on a single page with low visitation rates - no search engine is going to rank this very high, especially in the case of Jones, whose CV is very long and where there are enormous volumes of Web material devoted to him. No one is ever going to minutely scrutinize the tens of thousands of pages Jones' name appears on, and the Troofer site is going to be way down near the bottom anyway.

And even if it were found, it's so obviously a fake - with absolutely no credible evidence backing it up, and from a source that's known for lying and forging exactly such documents - that no rational person would ever take it seriously.

241 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:04:41am

re: #232 SasquatchOnSteroids

There's something strange happening here.
Zombies' credibility seems to be in question to some around here all of a sudden.
Never saw work by Z that wasn't meticulous and thorough.

I speak for only me.

Really? I hadn't seen that.

242 pat  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:05:07am

re: #239 Lucius Septimius

In fact I did know that. Prussia

243 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:05:09am

re: #222 Last Mohican

I know what's possible too... getting hit by the Obama bus!

re: #232 SasquatchOnSteroids

There's something strange happening here.
Zombies' credibility seems to be in question to some around here all of a sudden.
Never saw work by Z that wasn't meticulous and thorough.

I speak for only me.

Damn straight! Not many play 'covert protest warrior' in the way Zombie does. From signing up for Obama phone banks to get the inside scoop, to braving protests...I have yet to see someone get an inside like Zombie and stay as 'objective' as he/she does. Nothing but kudos on my end to Zombie. Invaluable service.

244 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:05:18am

re: #238 Charles

Unreal.

Someone drop a sock?

245 Last Mohican  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:05:25am

re: #183 Charles

All of these lies are piling up, and they're going to backfire.

I'm reaching a level of cynicism where I'm not even sure that's true anymore.

The Democratic party and its multibillion dollar political machine trounced the Republicans by ruthlessly and incessantly pushing a whole campaign of lies and smears. Bush is as bad as Hitler. The Patriot Act literally invalidates the entire Bill of Rights. McCain literally wants America to go to war for a hundred years.

Obama is a radical who spent decades advertising his membership in a racist hate group, who apologized for the murdering revolutionary terrorist who was his political mentor, who until this day still supports the involvement of genocidal terrorists in Middle East politics. He never had any business even being elected to congress, let alone the presidency, and yet the truth was never even enough to put a speed bump on his fast-track road to coronation. But what finally put a stop to his run of the table? A bunch of ugly lies about "death panels."

I'm getting the impression that lies work. And therefore, from now on, the truth really will have no role in the American political scene.

246 jaunte  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:05:43am

re: #244 sattv4u2

Somebody wasted a lot of typing.

247 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:06:16am

re: #246 jaunte

Somebody wasted a lot of typing.

good!

248 beens21  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:07:12am

re: #150 Charles

I thought he said he did not read the petition carefully before he signed it. If he never went back to the site to review it he was negligent at best for agreeing to put his name to it. Did he ever ask them to remove his name, as did the Rachel person?

249 jaunte  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:07:17am

re: #247 sattv4u2

Something in there about Van Jones' "lecherous" acts. WTF?

250 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:07:23am

re: #241 Walter L. Newton

Really? I hadn't seen that.

heh. Just felt I needed to say that.

251 Perplexed  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:08:06am

re: #232 SasquatchOnSteroids

There's something strange happening here.
Zombies' credibility seems to be in question to some around here all of a sudden.
Never saw work by Z that wasn't meticulous and thorough.

I speak for only me.

Not questioning Zombie's credibility. Disturbing is what Zombie found.

252 Desert Dog  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:08:07am

OT

I had to run a delivery up to Kayenta, AZ yesterday. Mrs. Desert Dog and I got to sneak in a little sight seeing. I've posted some of the pics below. It was cloudy and sprinkling all day. Too bad, Monument Valley is spectacular when the skies are blue. The pictures are a little dark and fuzzy too...sorry about that. It's the photographer, not the camera.

Monument Valley & Antelope Canyon

253 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:08:35am

re: #242 pat

In fact I did know that. Prussia

For a long time the Russians didn't let anyone go there from the outside; I don't know if that's still true. It was a big naval base.

254 sagehen  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:09:41am

re: #206 MikeySDCA

Have you read his Wikipedia article? [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
He didn't get affirmative actioned because he was poor, which he wasn't, but because he was black.

That article doesn't mention affirmative action. What makes you so certain his jobs and law school admission weren't entirely on test scores or writing samples?

255 Salamantis  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:09:43am

The unmentioned assumption being cavalierly accepted here is that all credible evidence can be found on the internet, so if it's not on the internet, it's not credible evidence.

I'd like to see what a little IRL California legwork could dig up from print and TV sources. But I don't expect it from the MSM. And I can't do it myself from Florida.

256 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:10:10am

re: #251 Perplexed

Not questioning Zombie's credibility. Disturbing is what Zombie found.

No, there are some questioning Zombie's credibility -- look back on the over night thread. I'm really not sure what's driving it either -- the post in question seemed eminently reasonable to me.

257 Pianobuff  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:11:03am

re: #240 SixDegrees

Internet searches of various types are common in hiring these days. I have no doubt they're used for vetting purposes, as well.

The problem, exemplified well in this particular case, is how deep you want to bother digging. Most of the useful information about anyone is going to appear in the first page or two of results - digging farther than that, normally, all you encounter is noise. Here, we have a single occurrence of Jones' name on a single page with low visitation rates - no search engine is going to rank this very high, especially in the case of Jones, whose CV is very long and where there are enormous volumes of Web material devoted to him. No one is ever going to minutely scrutinize the tens of thousands of pages Jones' name appears on, and the Troofer site is going to be way down near the bottom anyway.

And even if it were found, it's so obviously a fake - with absolutely no credible evidence backing it up, and from a source that's known for lying and forging exactly such documents - that no rational person would ever take it seriously.

My curiosity is more around technique and "best practices". I could see a whole investigative practice around Internet scouring developing (well... it probably has already but I just don't know about it). There are probably folks that are considered experts at finding everything worth finding. How do they do it? What are their secrets? That sort of thing. Even though I work quite a bit with technology, I still am amazed by its power sometimes.

258 [deleted]  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:11:04am
259 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:11:19am

re: #246 jaunte

Somebody wasted a lot of typing.

One ought not risk courting carpal tunnel in vain.

260 SGTTED  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:11:42am

re: #24 Charles

Van Jones is incredibly respected among environmentalists. I know you hate him, but that's just a fact.

That doesn't speak well of the environmental movement does it?

261 DEZes  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:12:08am

Lying for a political victory is nothing new, But when you support and foster the lies, don't cry when your labeled a liar.
That's my advise to Beck and his supporters in all this.
Van Jones was a very bad choice, we all know that and the truth should have been enough to bring him down.
This will hurt the GOP as much or more than it hurt the Obama administration.
That makes it hard for me to celebrate.

262 S'latch  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:12:20am

re: #213 Lawrence Schmerel

I should have noted those statistics were from September 4, 2009. They have changed since then.

263 jaunte  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:12:21am

re: #252 Desert Dog

OT

I had to run a delivery up to Kayenta, AZ yesterday. Mrs. Desert Dog and I got to sneak in a little sight seeing. I've posted some of the pics below. It was cloudy and sprinkling all day. Too bad, Monument Valley is spectacular when the skies are blue. The pictures are a little dark and fuzzy too...sorry about that. It's the photographer, not the camera.

Monument Valley & Antelope Canyon

Cool photos, especially the ones of Antelope Canyon.

264 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:12:30am

re: #260 SGTTED

That doesn't speak well of the environmental movement does it?

Well, since George W. Bush signed Van Jones' Green Jobs Act into law, I guess we need to start ragging on him too.

265 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:12:45am

re: #212 quickjustice

The health care protests are genuine grassroots efforts. People are genuinely scared about the health care reform proposals. They are showing up under their own steam, not because the SEIU bussed them in.

I disagree. They're purposefully uninformed and ignorant and supported by groups like the Teabaggers and 'Freedomworks', etc.

If they were there to have debate on the actual issues then I wouldn't mind. But they are there to disrupt the debate with non-issues, and that's wrong.

266 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:12:58am

re: #255 Salamantis

The unmentioned assumption being cavalierly accepted here is that all credible evidence can be found on the internet, so if it's not on the internet, it's not credible evidence.

I'd like to see what a little IRL California legwork could dig up from print and TV sources. But I don't expect it from the MSM. And I can't do it myself from Florida.

Well ,,, you COULD, on the internet!!

umm,, huh , WHAT !?!?!

//

267 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:13:34am

re: #256 Lucius Septimius

No, there are some questioning Zombie's credibility -- look back on the over night thread. I'm really not sure what's driving it either -- the post in question seemed eminently reasonable to me.

Like I said above, Zombie is credible, Truthers are not.

268 Desert Dog  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:13:57am

re: #263 jaunte

It's a beautiful place, that is for sure.

269 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:14:06am

re: #267 Walter L. Newton

Like I said above, Zombie is credible, Truthers are not.

Agreed absolutely.

270 debutaunt  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:14:25am

re: #265 Diego

I disagree. They're purposefully uninformed and ignorant and supported by groups like the Teabaggers and 'Freedomworks', etc.

If they were there to have debate on the actual issues then I wouldn't mind. But they are there to disrupt the debate with non-issues, and that's wrong.

Gee, I saw an AARP meeting and the people seems very well informed.

271 SixDegrees  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:14:26am

re: #257 Pianobuff

My curiosity is more around technique and "best practices". I could see a whole investigative practice around Internet scouring developing (well... it probably has already but I just don't know about it). There are probably folks that are considered experts at finding everything worth finding. How do they do it? What are their secrets? That sort of thing. Even though I work quite a bit with technology, I still am amazed by its power sometimes.

For starters, I'd suggest poking around in Google's documentation on how to use their search engine - the stuff pretty much nobody reads, but which can increase Google's power tremendously. It isn't much used because Google works so well just with it's default interface, but you can squeeze a lot more out of it, and filter out a huge amount of chaff, too, by using more advanced techniques.

272 Randall Gross  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:14:33am

Frum's Take:

On CNN’s Situation Room last night, I was asked about the White House’s green jobs adviser’s signature of at least one (and maybe two) statements endorsing the denialist point of view. The White House is apparently excusing its man on the grounds that he did not appreciate the significance of the documents. My reply: “This is a man in charge of supervising $80 billion worth of contracts - and your defense of him is that he signs things without reading them?”

273 Salamantis  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:14:36am

re: #266 sattv4u2

Well ,,, you COULD, on the internet!!

umm,, huh , WHAT !?!?!

//

Wrong. I can't check the entire contents of public libraries and official document repositories and newspaper and magazine archives from the internet.

274 Kronocide  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:14:45am

CNN Report on Van Jones:

VJ Says Smear Campaign. Reasons: 50% Truther web site association, 50% 'coarse rhetoric.'

Hollow victory.

275 BryanS  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:15:18am

re: #245 Last Mohican

Sad, but true. But I think that among many of the lies are perceived kernels of truth. "Death Panels" for instance, are in the health care bill to the extent that there was consideration for policy review boards which evaluated efficacy and costs of treatment options. In socialized medicine, the government has to resort to some cost/benefit calculation to manage costs or you'll find health care bankrupting the country. The kernel of truth in that slogan is that socialized medicine leads to bureaucratic decisions about health treatment options. Is there a Kafkaesque panel you must appear before to plead for your life? No. Not even the teller of this "lie" believes that. That "lie" is simply political hyperbole.

There are stupid people who believe all the "lies" you list, but I think a good number of people understand that incredible claims need to be taken with some skepticism as likely to be hyperbole.

276 Perplexed  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:15:18am

re: #264 Charles

Well, since George W. Bush signed Van Jones' Green Jobs Act into law, I guess we need to start ragging on him too.

Yep. Time to Blame George W. Bush for:

Lindberg kidnapping
Judge Crater disapperance
100 Year war
Crusades
Black death
Lincoln assassination
Crop failures
Famines

/sarcasm off

277 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:15:45am

re: #265 Diego

I disagree. They're purposefully uninformed and ignorant and supported by groups like the Teabaggers and 'Freedomworks', etc.

If they were there to have debate on the actual issues then I wouldn't mind. But they are there to disrupt the debate with non-issues, and that's wrong.

I'll pass your kind words on to my 82 y/o mother who attended a meeting back in Massachusetts! Thanks

(gggeeezzz ,, broad brush much?)

278 MacDuff  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:15:57am

Amazing. Van Jones is gone and there are still people here arguing the "Truther" business.

Get a life! I have one, and I'm going to live it now. Buh Bye.

279 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:16:27am

re: #273 Salamantis

Wrong. I can't check the entire contents of public libraries and official document repositories and newspaper and magazine archives from the internet.

Did you not see the // on your screen?!?!?

280 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:16:31am

re: #271 SixDegrees

For starters, I'd suggest poking around in Google's documentation on how to use their search engine - the stuff pretty much nobody reads, but which can increase Google's power tremendously. It isn't much used because Google works so well just with it's default interface, but you can squeeze a lot more out of it, and filter out a huge amount of chaff, too, by using more advanced techniques.

True. I've busted more students for plagiarism using those tools than with any other mechanism, including specialized programs intended to identify cheating. You can really fine tune the instrument to find very specific things.

281 Pianobuff  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:17:33am

re: #277 sattv4u2

I'll pass your kind words on to my 82 y/o mother who attended a meeting back in Massachusetts! Thanks

(gggeeezzz ,, broad brush much?)

Add my mother-in-law and brother-in-law, registered Democrats, to the list.

282 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:17:47am

re: #270 debutaunt

re: #277 sattv4u2

The operative word in the original comment was: protests

283 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:18:25am

re: #255 Salamantis

The unmentioned assumption being cavalierly accepted here is that all credible evidence can be found on the internet, so if it's not on the internet, it's not credible evidence.

I'd like to see what a little IRL California legwork could dig up from print and TV sources. But I don't expect it from the MSM. And I can't do it myself from Florida.

The media has much more than the Internet at their disposal. The LexisNexis database contains almost everything published in the country, going back for many years, and all kinds of other information besides.

If there were ANY statements at all from Van Jones supporting Trutherism, someone would have found them by now.

Absolutely nothing turned up.

284 Desert Dog  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:19:18am

re: #280 Lucius Septimius

True. I've busted more students for plagiarism using those tools than with any other mechanism, including specialized programs intended to identify cheating. You can really fine tune the instrument to find very specific things.

Back in the olden days, we have to actually copy the text word for word. These kids have it easy...cut/paste...done. That must be a huge problem.

285 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:19:34am

re: #276 Perplexed

Yep. Time to Blame George W. Bush for:

Lindberg kidnapping
Judge Crater disapperance
100 Year war
Crusades
Black death
Lincoln assassination
Crop failures
Famines

/sarcasm off

Perfectly fair. GWB is the political embodiment of the racist, repressive, imperialist and plutocratic regressive mind-set that has dominated "Western" so-called "Civilization" for millenia. It is fair to hold him accountable insofar as he is the beneficiary and a major purveyor of the destructive impulses by which marginalized people remain in bondage and oppression throughout the globe.

/See how easy it is!

286 beens21  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:19:53am

The FBI and Secret Service vets appointees, I doubt they rely solely on the internet. Valerie Jarrett said she has been following him for years. Go read his book to see his point of view, he is nowhere qualified to be any kind of advisor to any POTUS.

287 Kronocide  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:20:48am

re: #283 Charles

Absolutely nothing turned up.

Have faith in The Beckness!

288 calcajun  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:20:51am

re: #276 Perplexed

Yep. Time to Blame George W. Bush for:

Lindberg kidnapping
Judge Crater disapperance
100 Year war
Crusades
Black death
Lincoln assassination
Crop failures
Famines

/sarcasm off

You forgot disco and Amelia Earhart/

289 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:20:53am

re: #284 Desert Dog

Back in the olden days, we have to actually copy the text word for word. These kids have it easy...cut/paste...done. That must be a huge problem.

It is, but if they're so lazy they have to cheat, they're also pretty lazy about gathering the information, so it doesn't take much to nail them.

Instant messaging, otoh, is a real nuisance.

290 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:21:22am

re: #287 BigPapa

Have faith in The Beckness!

/spit!/

291 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:21:29am

re: #288 calcajun

You forgot disco and Amelia Earhart/

Amelia did the Hustle? Who knew!

292 Athens Runaway  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:21:30am

re: #283 Charles

The media has much more than the Internet at their disposal. The LexisNexis database contains almost everything published in the country, going back for many years, and all kinds of other information besides.

If there were ANY statements at all from Van Jones supporting Trutherism, someone would have found them by now.

Absolutely nothing turned up.

Assuming, of course, that the people with access to those tools were not predisposed to—shall we say—being "somewhat predisposed" towards the people we're expecting them to research.

293 [deleted]  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:21:33am
294 SGTTED  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:21:42am

re: #264 Charles

Well, since George W. Bush signed Van Jones' Green Jobs Act into law, I guess we need to start ragging on him too.

Yes, we should. Especially as there is little evidence that the "green jobs" law will produce any net gain in jobs and most likely will be a collosal waste of money. Just because W signed something that some serious economists think is a bad ideas into law, doesn't make it a good idea, suddenly. I am certainly no Obama supporter, but if he were to adopt conservative policy that works, I would be more than willing to give him credit, much as I gave Clinton credit for welfare reform.

295 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:22:00am

re: #290 Diego

/spit!/

Better be careful about that -- H1N1, you know.

296 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:22:02am

re: #287 BigPapa

Have faith in The Beckness!

Where's that throbbing memo when you really need one?

297 jaunte  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:22:19am

Swish. Nothing but net.

298 DEZes  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:22:24am

Another one bites the dust.

299 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:22:28am

re: #295 Lucius Septimius

Better be careful about that -- H1N1, you know.

Naw, I ain't kissed the pig :P

300 Athens Runaway  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:22:54am

re: #292 Athens Runaway

That came less coherently than I intended, but the point remains.

301 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:23:11am

re: #287 BigPapa

Have faith in The Beckness!

And see, that's the thing. Fox News has access to LexisNexis. I have no doubt that when this story was being prepared for Beck, they searched for Van Jones' statements on Trutherism, and found nothing -- yet, they ran with the story anyway, knowing the only sources for the allegation were Truther sites and hate sites like rense.com.

302 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:23:14am

re: #297 jaunte

Swish. Nothing but net.

Stinky is in mid season form!

303 midwestgak  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:23:15am

re: #298 DEZes

Another one bites the dust.

Doesn't that make three on this thread alone?

Hi DEZ.

304 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:23:53am

re: #288 calcajun

You forgot disco and Amelia Earhart/

I did not know that. Disco.

Sonofabitch !

/

305 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:23:55am

re: #297 jaunte

Swish. Nothing but net.

Jeeez -- and I totally missed it. Bummer.

306 [deleted]  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:24:26am
307 MandyManners  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:24:36am

The only Jeff Jones I can find was a national officer of the SDS and was a founding member of the Weathermen.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Is he buds with Ayers?

308 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:24:40am

re: #305 Lucius Septimius

Jeeez -- and I totally missed it. Bummer.

You didn't miss anything. Just the usual lame-brained insults.

I expect it to be happening all day. The idiots are really in triumphal mode today.

309 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:24:46am

re: #300 Athens Runaway

That came less coherently than I intended, but the point remains.

Don't worry. There are wonderful thoughts in my head, then after I hit POST THIS COMMENT and I look at it on screen, I say

Who's the idiot that wrote THAT!

310 DEZes  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:24:49am

re: #303 midwestgak

Doesn't that make three on this thread alone?

Hi DEZ.

I was reading the second line when that one went poof.
And hi back at ya.

311 jaunte  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:24:54am

re: #305 Lucius Septimius

One more "oh how low have you sunk since first I..."

312 Pianobuff  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:25:09am

re: #284 Desert Dog

Back in the olden days, we have to actually copy the text word for word. These kids have it easy...cut/paste...done. That must be a huge problem.

How do you like this idea?

You write software that replaces words with like words (e.g. auto-thesaurus kind of thingy). You set this up as a web service and sell it for use by the word, document size, or however you want. You do some other nifty little things like split one word into two and vice versa. You market it to students who can pop in a copied work and have it spit back something "original".

What do you think?

313 rwmofo  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:25:33am

re: #284 Desert Dog

Back in the olden days, we have to actually copy the text word for word. These kids have it easy...cut/paste...done. That must be a huge problem.

I've seen kids (from elementary school through grad school) getting busted right in front of the class - both for using words they couldn't define and for not being able to answer simple questions about what they wrote. When I saw the kid in the 5th grade get busted, I decided to go ahead and do the work.

314 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:25:37am

re: #307 MandyManners

The only Jeff Jones I can find was a national officer of the SDS and was a founding member of the Weathermen.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Is he buds with Ayers?

Oh ye of little faith. Why don't people search LGF first for information like this?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

315 midwestgak  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:26:05am

re: #310 DEZes

I was reading the second line when that one went poof.

LOL. Same here. Quick smack.

316 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:26:05am

re: #307 MandyManners

The only Jeff Jones I can find was a national officer of the SDS and was a founding member of the Weathermen.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Is he buds with Ayers?

I had a big SDS muckymuck as a professor in College. Existentialist Philosophy. That class was enough to make me abandon being a philosophy major. I mean, formal logic was so much fun!

The guy was a certifiable nutcase.

317 MandyManners  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:26:11am

re: #314 Charles

Oh ye of little faith. Why don't people search LGF first for information like this?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

I had no idea!

Thanks!

318 Desert Dog  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:26:23am

re: #301 Charles

And see, that's the thing. Fox News has access to LexisNexis. I have no doubt that when this story was being prepared for Beck, they searched for Van Jones' statements on Trutherism, and found nothing -- yet, they ran with the story anyway, knowing the only sources for the allegation were Truther sites and hate sites like rense.com.

Yes, but look at the rating$. Glenn Beck bring$ viewer$ to the network $hows. He is $pecial and will $tay until he does $omething $tupid.

319 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:26:43am

re: #311 jaunte

One more "oh how low have you sunk since first I..."

Ahh ... a sort of "Boogie Nights" moment.

320 Desert Dog  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:27:05am

re: #312 Pianobuff

How do you like this idea?

You write software that replaces words with like words (e.g. auto-thesaurus kind of thingy). You set this up as a web service and sell it for use by the word, document size, or however you want. You do some other nifty little things like split one word into two and vice versa. You market it to students who can pop in a copied work and have it spit back something "original".

What do you think?

You'll be rich!

321 DEZes  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:27:15am

re: #315 midwestgak

Stinky was all over it.

322 MandyManners  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:27:24am

Egads. Another watermelon.

323 pat  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:27:36am

re: #253 Lucius Septimius

Yes, and an important shipping center. But there are a couple secret treaties dealing with what the Russians put there. And it is not secure because of the long transiting over Lithuania. These SAMs would seem to be undeployed which means they would be in a bunker within Russia proper.

324 avanti  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:27:36am

re: #152 itellu3times

Do I read that he wants to have organ donation the default instead of requiring you to approve it?

/something about starting brain before putting mouth in gear

Many countries have you check off that you do not want organs donated by default, otherwise, you approve. We, as a country donate far less than some others, and I think that was his point.

325 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:27:45am

re: #318 Desert Dog

..until he does $omething $tupid.

Years, years I tells thee! H'e d have to refuse to suck off Rupert to get fired.

326 SixDegrees  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:28:15am

re: #301 Charles

And see, that's the thing. Fox News has access to LexisNexis. I have no doubt that when this story was being prepared for Beck, they searched for Van Jones' statements on Trutherism, and found nothing -- yet, they ran with the story anyway, knowing the only sources for the allegation were Truther sites and hate sites like rense.com.

Their cover for such lack of oversight is that Beck isn't part of the news programming - he's "entertainment" or - less believably - "op ed" that doesn't require any accuracy vetting due to it's nature. When it suits their purpose, Beck's show is treated much the same as "The Colbert Report" even when it's firmly embedded within the Fox News programming stable.

327 brookly red  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:28:29am

re: #318 Desert Dog

untill?

328 Kronocide  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:28:41am

re: #301 Charles

Agreed, and that is the thing: Beck is entertainment and should not be considered credible, that he is considered such is a troublesome. The lines have blurred between entertainment and news, in many cases it's the same thing.

329 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:28:48am

re: #318 Desert Dog

Yes, but look at the rating$. Glenn Beck bring$ viewer$ to the network $hows. He is $pecial and will $tay until he does $omething $tupid.

"The money is always right!" - Eugene Krabs

330 Salamantis  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:29:15am

Has anybody tried using the wayback machine to see whether some or all of this stuff reads the same in 2002 or 2004, or whether any or all of it was altered in the interim?

Can any of it even be found at all in this way? And can stuff be subsequently altered in such a way that the alterations wouldn't show when wayback is used?

Or is the contention not so much that they are lying now, but that they were also lying then? (this is my guess)

331 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:29:39am

re: #313 rwmofo

I've seen kids (from elementary school through grad school) getting busted right in front of the class - both for using words they couldn't define and for not being able to answer simple questions about what they wrote. When I saw the kid in the 5th grade get busted, I decided to go ahead and do the work.

Most kids are SOOO freakin' obvious about it it isn't even a challenge. And then they act surprised when they get caught.

My favorite was someone who turned in a research paper, and embedded in the text at several points was "Property of the PaperStore." He didn't even bother to look at what he'd cut and pasted. That and the bunch of guys who all turned in identical homework assignments which all had the same "author" name on the Word properties screen.

332 Salamantis  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:30:29am

re: #313 rwmofo

I've seen kids (from elementary school through grad school) getting busted right in front of the class - both for using words they couldn't define and for not being able to answer simple questions about what they wrote. When I saw the kid in the 5th grade get busted, I decided to go ahead and do the work.

All you really have to do is to google unusual phrases.

333 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:30:41am

re: #322 MandyManners

Hey -- wanna help me fold laundry?

334 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:30:49am

re: #330 Salamantis

Has anybody tried using the wayback machine to see whether some or all of this stuff reads the same in 2002 or 2004, or whether any or all of it was altered in the interim?

Can any of it even be found at all in this way? And can stuff be subsequently altered in such a way that the alterations wouldn't show when wayback is used?

Or is the contention not so much that they are lying now, but that they were also lying then? (this is my guess)

That was one of the main points of this post:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

335 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:31:04am

re: #333 Lucius Septimius

Hey -- wanna help me fold laundry?

In bed?

336 pat  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:31:19am

I will be hiking Diamond head today.

337 MandyManners  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:31:31am

re: #333 Lucius Septimius

Hey -- wanna help me fold laundry?

No. I've a few loads that I'm busy ignoring today.

338 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:32:07am

re: #336 pat

Pat's having an affair!

339 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:32:21am

re: #337 MandyManners

No. I've a few loads that I'm busy ignoring today.

Kewl! We can ignore them together!

340 rhythman  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:32:24am

just a quick two cents from me to whoever wants to read...
This president is a disgrace to the office. I will not use a capital "p" out of respect to the office. I only hope that _no_ health care bill is passed, to put him deeper in a hole of unimportance. worse than Carter? possibly. more dangerous. Most definitely.

thanks for allowing me to rant a little

341 Kronocide  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:32:35am

Have we figured out if Van Jones eats at LIHOP or MIHOP?

(snicker)

I'm sorry, all this fuss made me dig up the NGC show on the Truthers where they did experiments and let the Troofers reply. Good times!

342 SixDegrees  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:32:41am

re: #284 Desert Dog

Back in the olden days, we have to actually copy the text word for word. These kids have it easy...cut/paste...done. That must be a huge problem.

Somewhat. It depends on what grading structure is used. Normally, tests, in-class quizzes and other sorts of examination make up a substantial chunk of the final grade, even if there's a monumental research paper that contributes to most of it. Not surprisingly, those inclined to cheat by way of plagiarism are not all that good at actually thinking, and tend to do poorly on material that requires an actual contribution from them. It's also pretty damning when your paper actually makes grammatical sense, but your classroom quizzes don't produce even a single properly formed sentence.

343 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:32:45am

re: #335 Diego

In bed?

Actually, the pile is on top of the bed glowering at me.

344 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:33:22am

re: #343 Lucius Septimius

Hehe :)

345 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:33:32am

re: #336 pat

I will be hiking Diamond head today.

I've been hitting the gym hard as of late...and tonight, while taking a break, I have overdosed on Kirtland Brand Chocolate covered raisins...my stomach is not thanking me but dang they are good...

Guess my point is I might need to hike 'Diamond head' 10 times to burn off all this self inflicted goodness!

346 Desert Dog  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:33:37am

re: #325 Diego

Years, years I tells thee! H'e d have to refuse to suck off Rupert to get fired.

If he cost them $, he'll be replaced. I think there is a political drive from Rupert and FOXNEWS, but it's really all about the money. Glenn Beck is bringing more and more viewers to the network. Even though many advertisers are balking at him, I am betting there are others that will want access to that market and will pay.

I can see Beck flaming out though...his schtick can't play forever (or can it?)

347 Kronocide  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:34:04am

re: #336 pat

Aloha from Kona. Was at a project on Diamond Head Drive a few weeks ago. Great place.

348 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:34:44am

re: #343 Lucius Septimius

Actually, the pile is on top of the bed glowering at me.

You ever just push them to the end of the bed to make room so you can go to sleep ?

Me, neither.

/

349 itellu3times  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:34:51am

re: #324 avanti

Many countries have you check off that you do not want organs donated by default, otherwise, you approve. We, as a country donate far less than some others, and I think that was his point.

Didn't know that other countries do it that way. Nothing really horrible about it, I guess, as long as you can also opt out, but the politics and aesthetics and paternalism of it all, are all difficult in any American traditions. It just goes with the kind of vibe Obama gives off, that he's one smart fellow, he felt smart.

350 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:35:18am

re: #348 SasquatchOnSteroids

You ever just push them to the end of the bed to make room so you can go to sleep ?

Me, neither.

/

Never! Never ever!

///

351 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:35:20am

re: #340 rhythman

This president is a disgrace to the office

NA-NA-NA-NA-NA TOO-O-O BAD-AD!

352 itellu3times  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:35:48am

re: #308 Charles

The idiots are really in triumphal mode today.

rotating title.

353 [deleted]  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:36:07am
354 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:36:48am

re: #340 rhythman

just a quick two cents from me to whoever wants to read...
This president is a disgrace to the office. I will not use a capital "p" out of respect to the office. I only hope that _no_ health care bill is passed, to put him deeper in a hole of unimportance. worse than Carter? possibly. more dangerous. Most definitely.

thanks for allowing me to rant a little

Well, he has the ultimate comeback:

"I won."

Such the uniter...

355 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:37:10am

OT ,,,
Authorities say San Diego Chargers linebacker Shawne Merriman has been arrested on suspicion of choking and restraining his girlfriend as she tried to leave his Southern California home. According to the San Diego County sheriff's office, reality TV star Tila Tequila signed a citizen's arrest warrant early this morning, charging Merriman with battery and false imprisonment

356 pat  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:37:22am

I had not read this bit. Rumors circulated this was true when it happened.

September 2, 2009: The two female U.S. journalists who were freed by North Korea last month, have revealed that they were dragged into North Korea by North Korean border guards. The two were briefly in North Korea, after crossing an unmarked and unguarded, rural, portion of the border. But when North Korean border guards became aware of the two, they crossed the border (back on March 17th) into China, grabbed the women, took them into North Korea and arrested them. The two women were apparently unaware that North Korea border guards and soldiers frequently cross the border, often in civilian clothes. This is usually done to carry out illegal activities (smuggling, kidnapping or simply to rob wealthier victims on the Chinese side of the border). Chinese who live along the border have learned to be wary of these armed North Koreans, especially in rural parts of the border, where Chinese police and border guards are not to be found.

357 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:37:23am

re: #346 Desert Dog

I can see Beck flaming out though...his schtick can't play forever (or can it?)

Aye, at some point he'll prolly choke on his own spit..or something else..

358 Kronocide  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:37:25am

"Charges of racism in the Van Jones controversy" - CNN.

That is, was it racism that drove him out? Van Jones racism should have been the issue, but since the conservos made the Trooferism the real issue (on hollow grounds) the prerogative on solid ground is lost.

Thin to win.

359 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:38:18am

re: #355 sattv4u2

Tila Tequila???

I presume that's a "stage name"?

360 kcladderman  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:38:46am

re: #349 itellu3times

Didn't know that other countries do it that way. Nothing really horrible about it, I guess, as long as you can also opt out, but the politics and aesthetics and paternalism of it all, are all difficult in any American traditions. It just goes with the kind of vibe Obama gives off, that he's one smart fellow, he felt smart.

While I am an organ donor and encourage everyone to do it. Making it policy to harvest organs unless someone options out is not the way to do it. It is the decision of the family and no one else.

361 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:39:10am

re: #351 Diego

NA-NA-NA-NA-NA TOO-O-O BAD-AD!

re: #357 Diego

Aye, at some point he'll prolly choke on his own spit..or something else..

{sigh}

362 itellu3times  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:39:16am

re: #276 Perplexed

Yep. Time to Blame George W. Bush for:

Lindberg kidnapping
Judge Crater disapperance
100 Year war
Crusades
Black death
Lincoln assassination
Crop failures
Famines

/sarcasm off

tunguska explosion
extinction of the dinosaurs
radioactive decay
tragedy of the commons
ring around the collar

363 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:39:40am

re: #359 Lucius Septimius

Tila Tequila???

I presume that's a "stage name"?

She's like the Hilton sisters. famous for being famous

364 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:39:56am

re: #358 BigPapa

"Charges of racism in the Van Jones controversy" - CNN.

I don't know where they are getting that, it certainly wasn't from anything I've seen him say about leaving. But the, CNN just needs to find someone, anyone, willing to make the claim for it to be 'news'..

365 Locker  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:39:57am

Just jumping into the thread now but when I saw this my first thought was "what a bitch!?" and was instantly reminded of Chris... Satan's boyfriend on South Park.

You're a pussy, Chris, and you drive me crazy; go away!

366 MandyManners  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:39:57am

After a lot of heated debate, the considerable influence of Jones and Bernadine Dohrn moved the organization away from attacking civilian targets and toward symbols of American power (buildings, etc.). [1]

We were very careful from the moment of the townhouse on to be sure we weren't going to hurt anybody, and we never did hurt anybody. Whenever we put a bomb in a public space, we had figured out all kinds of ways to put checks and balances on the thing and also to get people away from it, and we were remarkably successful.

—Bill Ayers[7]

In the early stages of his life on the lam, Jones lived for over a year in San Francisco with fellow-fugitive Dohrn. [1] In this time, at least one bombing claimed by Weatherman went off in their locale (Presidio Army base). [5] Although the aforementioned bombing, nor any claimed by Weatherman, can be attributed to any one member of the group, Jones’ name is listed on a roster of issuers of communiqués that were customary before or after one of the organization's major actions. [4]

Jones left California for the East Coast in 1971, with a passenger and fellow Weatherman, Eleanor Raskin. Over a time they became a couple and settled down in the Catskill Mountains to establish a new network there. In the years to come, they lived in New Jersey and the Bronx, New York [1] Because of the secretive nature of the group, by now known as the Weather Underground Organization (WUO), [5] specifics of what members did and where they were at all times are extremely hard to come by.

However, in his time underground, Jones was part of a collaborative WUO effort that wrote and published a book entitled Prairie Fire, of which 40,000 copies were printed and distributed. [1] The book was a way in which the WUO could reach out and forge unity with progressive activists aboveground, and also advocate, with its doctrinal content, for the creation of a communist party. [5] Inspired by reading Prairie Fire, radical filmmaker Emile de Antonio, made a documentary about the WUO called "Underground." Made in secrecy with Jones and four other members of the organization, the Underground (documentary film) was another vehicle for the WUO to communicate with potential supporters of their causes. In an effort to gather information on the group, the director was harassed relentlessly by the FBI, which subsided only when Hollywood celebrities and prominent lawyers intervened on his behalf. [5]

367 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:40:01am

re: #359 Lucius Septimius

Tila Tequila???

I presume that's a "stage name"?

Link

Tequila, whose real name is Tila Nguyen, is best known for her MTV dating reality show, "A Shot at Love with Tila Tequila."

Looks like Merriman won't make the cut.
Asshole.

368 rwmofo  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:40:39am

re: #355 sattv4u2

OT ,,,
Authorities say San Diego Chargers linebacker Shawne Merriman has been arrested on suspicion of choking and restraining his girlfriend as she tried to leave his Southern California home. According to the San Diego County sheriff's office, reality TV star Tila Tequila signed a citizen's arrest warrant early this morning, charging Merriman with battery and false imprisonment

I'm a Bronco fan, but crap:

What...were...you...thinking?

369 DEZes  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:41:13am

re: #360 kcladderman

While I am an organ donor and encourage everyone to do it. Making it policy to harvest organs unless someone options out is not the way to do it. It is the decision of the family and no one else.

Agreed, this is bad because people dont always read and are not well informed, my organs belong to me, not the state.
being silent is not consent.

370 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:41:32am

re: #357 Diego

Aye, at some point he'll prolly choke on his own spit..or something else..

Classy.

371 Randall Gross  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:41:46am

re: #346 Desert Dog

If he cost them $, he'll be replaced. I think there is a political drive from Rupert and FOXNEWS, but it's really all about the money. Glenn Beck is bringing more and more viewers to the network. Even though many advertisers are balking at him, I am betting there are others that will want access to that market and will pay.

I can see Beck flaming out though...his schtick can't play forever (or can it?)

He'll get the gold pimps and homeopathic cure crowd of advertisers. The ones who keep world nut drooly afloat.

372 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:42:04am

re: #358 BigPapa

"Charges of racism in the Van Jones controversy" - CNN.

That is, was it racism that drove him out? Van Jones racism should have been the issue, but since the conservos made the Trooferism the real issue (on hollow grounds) the prerogative on solid ground is lost.

Thin to win.

I saw this one coming a mile away. And unfortunately, I believe there is an undercurrent of racism here. I had to block two accounts last night after they posted blatantly racist comments celebrating Van Jones' resignation.

Many African Americans are probably going to see what happened as a sort of lynch mob, and they're not entirely wrong.

The fallout from this is going to be ugly.

373 MandyManners  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:42:15am

In the years after he gained his full freedom, Jones has worked as a reporter and editor covering New York State politics and policy. He was a communications director for ten years at Environmental Advocates of New York. He now heads up his own consulting firm called Jeff Jones Strategies that specializes in media expertise, writing and campaign strategies that help grassroots and progressive groups to achieve their goals. [8] Jones is also working on the board of the financial arm of Movement for a Democratic Society (MDS), a group that works closely with the new SDS.

374 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:42:38am

re: #366 MandyManners

"Jone's" in this case is the "Jone's" of this thread?

Wow.

375 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:42:39am

re: #369 DEZes

Agreed, this is bad because people dont always read and are not well informed, my organs belong to me, not the state.
being silent is not consent.

Damn straight. How's it hangin', D ?

376 itellu3times  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:43:00am

re: #209 karmic_inquisitor

Not certain on that particular item, but there are other examples that he has given in "Q&A" time after presentations that are apt to be used against him.

He is an academic who will search for an off the cuff example for "soft paternalism" (where the government makes a default choice for you, with the default choice being the one that is "good for you and or society") and will end up making some poor examples.

Just on Friday the Obama Admin announced a change to 401 plans that they are doing without need of congressional approval where certain elections (such as increasing contributions) will be made for you automatically and requires you to specifically act on to prevent from happening. That is an example of the Obama Admin implementing "soft paternalism".

[Link: www.usnews.com...]

Yes, that seems to get to the heart of the Obama administration.

Problem is the Pelosis of the world want more, more, more, mandatory government-funded botox for illegal aliens, a gulfstream in every garage, whatever.

377 Salamantis  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:43:24am

re: #367 SasquatchOnSteroids

Tequila, whose real name is Tila Nguyen, is best known for her MTV dating reality show, "A Shot at Love with Tila Tequila."

Since Tia Tequila is bisexual, it was an unusual show among its peers, as in it both men and women were simultaneously competing for her favors.

378 DEZes  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:43:38am

re: #375 SasquatchOnSteroids

Damn straight. How's it hangin', D ?

Hanging just fine, how you doing Big guy?

379 pat  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:43:48am

good article on the arms race in southern Asia:

This Will Not End Well
[Link: www.strategypage.com...]

September 6, 2009: China and India are competing for bases in the Indian Ocean. ...
Japanese pundits and politicians are talking about nuclear weapons again. The Japanese perceive a growing military threat from China, and despite long traditions of being "anti-nuclear weapons", most Japanese understand that the only counter for China's nuclear weapons, are Japanese ones. It's long been acknowledged that Japan could quickly build nukes, and has the ability to do so within six months. Then there's the general military balance between the two nations.

Japan could have a prototype nuclear weapon in six weeks. I believe everything is already in place. The smelters, the lathes, the triggers, everything. Right there in the back rooms of Toshiba and Hitachi.

380 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:44:09am

re: #361 sattv4u2

Well what do you expect me to say to 'This president is a disgrace to the office.'. I mean, I could have just said 'fuck you', but it lacked something..

381 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:44:22am

re: #374 Oh no...Sand People!

"Jone's" in this case is the "Jone's" of this thread?

Wow.

Wait..Jeff Jones...never mind.

382 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:45:27am

re: #380 Diego

Well what do you expect me to say to 'This president is a disgrace to the office.'. I mean, I could have just said 'fuck you', but it lacked something..

Ignoring an ignorant comment is always an option

FREE LESSON FROM AN OLD GUY

Don't get into a mud fight with a pig. The pig likes it there!

383 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:45:39am

re: #377 Salamantis

Since Tia Tequila is bisexual, it was an unusual show among its peers, as in it both men and women were simultaneously competing for her favors.

I did not know that.
I am so out of the loop, and glad to be.

384 itellu3times  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:45:53am

re: #355 sattv4u2

oy

385 Desert Dog  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:46:00am

Mr. Jones

Youtube Video
386 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:46:02am

re: #379 pat

good article on the arms race in southern Asia:

This Will Not End Well
[Link: www.strategypage.com...]

Japan could have a prototype nuclear weapon in six weeks. I believe everything is already in place. The smelters, the lathes, the triggers, everything. Right there in the back rooms of Toshiba and Hitachi.

Not one doubt of that. And unlike NK's. it won't be a dud...

387 opnion  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:46:31am

Got here late, just awful that some in the media are using Van Jones own words to "smear" him.

388 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:46:41am

re: #378 DEZes

Hanging just fine, how you doing Big guy?

No complaints. Nice day.
Grass is cut, beer is cold.

389 avanti  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:47:11am

re: #369 DEZes

Agreed, this is bad because people dont always read and are not well informed, my organs belong to me, not the state.
being silent is not consent.

I'm agnostic on the issue. While I think it's tragic that other might die for lack of a transplant, I understand how others may object to donations for religious or personal reasons. I would not oppose a a way to increase donations, but not sure if a opt out plan is the right course, but it is far from a deal breaker opinion from those that think it might be.
In my case, I encouraged my son to sign when he got his license just as his mom and dad did.

390 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:47:19am

re: #380 Diego

re: #382 sattv4u2

Ignoring an ignorant comment is always an option

FREE LESSON FROM AN OLD GUY

Don't get into a mud fight with a pig. The pig likes it there!


And the follow up to that is

Even if you win, now you're all muddy!

391 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:47:57am

re: #387 opnion

Got here late, just awful that some in the media are using Van Jones own words to "smear" him.

I wonder which next one of Obama's Czars will have his past bite him in the ass?

392 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:48:11am

re: #382 sattv4u2

Indeed you are correct. Just gets under my skin.

Being here and all, I put up with a LOT without a peep :P

393 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:48:15am

re: #385 Desert Dog

I like this Mr. Jones better.

394 MandyManners  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:48:29am

re: #374 Oh no...Sand People!

"Jone's" in this case is the "Jone's" of this thread?

Wow.

No. Jeff Jones.

395 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:49:16am

 

I hate Jonesing..

 

396 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:49:23am

re: #394 MandyManners

Right. Caught your second post.

397 opnion  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:49:38am

re: #391 DrNaughty

I wonder which next one of Obama's Czars will have his past bite him in the ass?

The Science Czar?

398 Desert Dog  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:49:40am

re: #379 pat

good article on the arms race in southern Asia:

This Will Not End Well
[Link: www.strategypage.com...]

Japan could have a prototype nuclear weapon in six weeks. I believe everything is already in place. The smelters, the lathes, the triggers, everything. Right there in the back rooms of Toshiba and Hitachi.

The rush for nukes will not be confined to East Asia. Once Iran gets in, look for Saudi Arabia to follow. We are looking at many new members of the the Nuke Club in the future. That is scary

399 DEZes  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:50:02am

re: #389 avanti

I'm agnostic on the issue. While I think it's tragic that other might die for lack of a transplant, I understand how others may object to donations for religious or personal reasons. I would not oppose a a way to increase donations, but not sure if a opt out plan is the right course, but it is far from a deal breaker opinion from those that think it might be.
In my case, I encouraged my son to sign when he got his license just as his mom and dad did.

I have no problems being a donor, as I am one, but an omission should not grant the states the right to harvest at will.
Get consent in writing, its only fair.
No one should assume they have a right to rape the dead.

400 MandyManners  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:50:19am

re: #391 DrNaughty

I wonder which next one of Obama's Czars will have his past bite him in the ass?

Mark Lloyd is not a czar. He's the "diversity officer" at the FCC. And, his past is not very past.

[Link: www.fcc.gov...]

[Link: www.freepress.net...]

[Link: www.lunch.com...]

[Link: www.sourcewatch.org...]

Praise for Chavez

[Link: www.rushlimbaugh.com...]

401 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:50:27am

re: #389 avanti

I'm agnostic on the issue. While I think it's tragic that other might die for lack of a transplant, I understand how others may object to donations for religious or personal reasons. I would not oppose a a way to increase donations, but not sure if a opt out plan is the right course, but it is far from a deal breaker opinion from those that think it might be.
In my case, I encouraged my son to sign when he got his license just as his mom and dad did.

I encourage it also. It's a good thing to do IMO.
I'm an organ donor.
Some of my stuff you don't want, though.

/What the hell are we supposed to do with that !?

402 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:50:58am

re: #397 opnion

The Science Czar?

Now that there is blood in the water from Van Jones, I'm certain they are all going to have their backgrounds checked.

Obama his a history of associating himself with unsavory characters. It's just a matter of time

403 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:51:51am

I have to wonder what decisions McCain would have made by now and were we would be financially under him and Lil' Miss Brainfart.

404 livefreeor die  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:52:00am

re: #402 DrNaughty

Now that there is blood in the water from Van Jones, I'm certain they are all going to have their backgrounds checked.

Obama his a history of associating himself with unsavory characters. It's just a matter of time

The You Tube servers are probably working overtime today.

405 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:52:12am

/where

406 Last Mohican  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:52:28am

re: #387 opnion

Got here late, just awful that some in the media are using Van Jones own words to "smear" him.

Well, maybe he means the "Van Jones is a truther" thing, which was untrue. Or maybe he means the "simply quoting what he actually said" thing, which was totally legitimate.

That's the beauty of the word "smear," or its now-fading equivalent, "swiftboating." When used without explanation, it removes the necessity of actually responding to your critics, by simply denigrating anything they may have said, and cloaking your baseless insult with an air of moral superiority.

407 Salamantis  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:52:37am

re: #402 DrNaughty

Now that there is blood in the water from Van Jones, I'm certain they are all going to have their backgrounds checked.

Obama his a history of associating himself with unsavory characters. It's just a matter of time

It could very well bear fruit, because Obama also has a history of DISsociating himself from unsavory characters, once their unsavoriness is brought to public attention.

408 Randall Gross  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:52:40am

re: #405 Diego

Was that a brainfart?

409 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:53:00am

re: #403 Diego

I have to wonder what decisions McCain would have made by now and were we would be financially under him and Lil' Miss Brainfart.

Probably would NOT have had the $800 bil stimulus. Probably some kind of loan to GM and Chrysler.

410 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:54:03am

re: #407 Salamantis

It could very well bear fruit, because Obama also has a history of DISsociating himself from unsavory characters, once their unsavoriness is brought to public attention.

Obama's road to the Presidency has lots of people with tire tracks on their persons from the bus they got tossed under...

411 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:54:24am

re: #408 Thanos

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

412 kcladderman  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:54:50am

re: #403 Diego

I have to wonder what decisions McCain would have made by now and were we would be financially under him and Lil' Miss Brainfart.

I am not sure where we would be today, but I am pretty sure we wouldn't 9 trillion in the hole in 10 years.

413 shiplord kirel  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:55:07am

LGF had Jones's number back in July.

During this latest, and ultimately fatal, Jones uproar, there has not been a word about his affiliation with the bug-eyed crazy Noetics Institute.
Jones needed to go, but not under false charges when the truth would serve just as well.
The worst part of this is that Glenn Beck gets the credit/blame for it. He can plausibly claim vindication, his certifiably insane lectures about Mussolini's chariot and the like are forgotten, and he has emerged as a major figure on the right.

414 MandyManners  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:55:31am

Jeff Jones was tight with Dohrn. I would assume that he was tight with Ayers, too.

415 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:55:32am

re: #409 DrNaughty

Probably would NOT have had the $800 bil stimulus

How do you think that would have left us, all things being equal.

416 MandyManners  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:56:34am

There is no way FCBBHO didn't know of his involvement with SDS and WU.

417 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:56:38am

re: #415 Diego

How do you think that would have left us, all things being equal.

My guess would be a 6 - 7% unemployment rate...tops. But that is completely speculation and conjecture on my end.

418 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:57:09am

re: #415 Diego

How do you think that would have left us, all things being equal.

The stimulus hasn't done a whole lot of economic stimulation.

We MIGHT have had a six month suspension of FICA taxes. Which would have had an immediate effect by people paying off debt and businesses making some capital investments...

419 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:57:23am

re: #417 Oh no...Sand People!

No, I'm being serious..

/

420 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:57:47am

re: #417 Oh no...Sand People!

My guess would be a 6 - 7% unemployment rate...tops. But that is completely speculation and conjecture on my end.

According to the Wall Street Journal, the increase in the minimum wage alone probably accounts for at least one percentage point; probably 2.

421 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:57:56am

If McCain was President...
.
.
.
.
.
.
He's not.
Done thinking about it.

422 Desert Dog  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:58:28am

re: #421 SasquatchOnSteroids

If McCain was President...
.
.
.
.
.
.
He's not.
Done thinking about it.

But, what if Superman was President? That would be cool!

423 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:58:33am

re: #418 DrNaughty

The stimulus hasn't done a whole lot of economic stimulation.

We MIGHT have had a six month suspension of FICA taxes. Which would have had an immediate effect by people paying off debt and businesses making some capital investments...

Something to actually put money back in people's pockets. But there were lots of political debts to pay.

424 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:58:58am

re: #422 Desert Dog

But, what if Superman was President? That would be cool!

Totally wicked!

425 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:59:08am

re: #418 DrNaughty

The stimulus hasn't done a whole lot of economic stimulation.

But he's always said it's a 2 year program. I've not been expecting big successes yet, though there are been a lot of achievements, like the cheques Jindal is dolling out in his name.

426 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:59:37am

If McCain was President, we'd be fed a steady dose of how better it could have been under Obama.

And we know how that's going...

427 winnd54  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:59:42am

If McCain was president with 6 to 7 percent unemployment, the press would be crucifying him.

428 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 11:59:44am

re: #403 Diego

I have to wonder what decisions McCain would have made by now and were we would be financially under him and Lil' Miss Brainfart.

We wouldn't be here discussing the resignation a a CZAR!

429 jaunte  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:00:24pm

re: #422 Desert Dog

We'd still be worrying about the reds and the greens, but it would be Kryptonite.

430 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:00:41pm

re: #422 Desert Dog

But, what if Superman was President? That would be cool!

Totally !

431 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:00:41pm

re: #420 Lucius Septimius

According to the Wall Street Journal, the increase in the minimum wage alone probably accounts for at least one percentage point; probably 2.

Unfortuantley we will never see the minimum wage abolished. It is that.. and the large numbers of illegal workers that are willing to work for sub-minimum cash payments that makes life difficult for those with few job skills.

Business doesn't want to hire unskilled workers at the higher minimum wage, and will hire under the table the illegals at a much lower cash wage.

432 opnion  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:00:50pm

re: #402 DrNaughty

Now that there is blood in the water from Van Jones, I'm certain they are all going to have their backgrounds checked.

Obama his a history of associating himself with unsavory characters. It's just a matter of time

I don't believe for even a minute that Obama was in the dark about Van
Jones. FNC & CNN reported that he had a long standing relationship with Valarie Jarett. These are Far Left circles & that was Obama's orbit.

433 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:00:59pm

re: #428 sattv4u2

We wouldn't be here discussing the resignation a a CZAR!

You're right there. Beck and others wouldn't be spreading lies about like crazy juice.

434 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:01:07pm

re: #425 Diego

But he's always said it's a 2 year program. I've not been expecting big successes yet, though there are been a lot of achievements, like the cheques Jindal is dolling out in his name.

If it wasn't so urgent then why the rush to pass it last Feburary ?

435 SixDegrees  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:01:33pm

re: #418 DrNaughty

The stimulus hasn't done a whole lot of economic stimulation.

That's because considerably less than 20% of it has ever been allocated, and even less than that has actually be spent.

The remaining 80% is sitting in a huge, non-stimulating pile, apparently awaiting use as a gigantic Democratic slush fund to be deployed in support of reelection, rather than stimulating the economy.

436 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:01:50pm

re: #433 Diego

You're right there. Beck and others wouldn't be spreading lies about like crazy juice.

Robert Gibbs would be pursuing another line of employment

437 opnion  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:02:01pm

re: #416 MandyManners

There is no way FCBBHO didn't know of his involvement with SDS and WU.

No way.

438 shiplord kirel  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:02:25pm

re: #428 sattv4u2

We wouldn't be here discussing the resignation a a CZAR!

Oh, I don't know. Family Values and Healthy Living Czar Mark Sanford might have been forced to resign by now.
/If you're going to speculate, speculate.

439 Desert Dog  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:02:33pm

re: #434 DrNaughty

If it wasn't so urgent then why the rush to pass it last Feburary ?

Because if they didn't pass it right away, people might have read it and realized it was nothing but a giant pork-laden POS.

440 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:02:39pm

re: #434 DrNaughty

If it wasn't so urgent then why the rush to pass it last Feburary ?

Yes -- I seem to recall that the country was on the edge of "catastrophe" if it wasn't passed yesterday.

Notice a theme here?

441 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:02:47pm

re: #433 Diego

You're right there. Beck and others wouldn't be spreading lies about like crazy juice.

Right. We'd have Olberman, Maddow and Michael Moore et al still doing it

Nothing like experience !!

442 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:03:13pm

re: #438 shiplord kirel

Oh, I don't know. Family Values and Healthy Living Czar Mark Sanford might have been forced to resign by now.
/If you're going to speculate, speculate.

That clown NEEDS to resign... oh..but might require a shred of dignity on his end...

443 MandyManners  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:03:26pm

Later, taters.

444 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:03:27pm

re: #431 DrNaughty

Unfortuantley we will never see the minimum wage abolished

You're right. Damnit, if businesses can get people to work for them for $1 an hour then what's wrong with that! Steams me up that businesses have to actually pay people a minimum! Grr!

///

445 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:03:49pm

There goes redmonkey through the thread, down-dinging all my comments.

446 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:03:51pm

re: #284 Desert Dog

Back in the olden days, we have to actually copy the text word for word. These kids have it easy...cut/paste...done. That must be a huge problem.

TurnItIn.com is your neat friend.

447 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:04:19pm

re: #443 MandyManners

Later, taters.

Goodbye Miss Chips!

448 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:04:21pm

Early bedtime here. Night / Morning all.

449 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:04:25pm

re: #444 Diego

You're right. Damnit, if businesses can get people to work for them for $1 an hour then what's wrong with that! Steams me up that businesses have to actually pay people a minimum! Grr!

///

Supply and demand does work in the labor market as well...

450 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:05:01pm

re: #449 DrNaughty

Supply and demand does work in the labor market as well...

Aye, because it always did before there was a min wage...

451 opnion  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:05:02pm

re: #425 Diego

But he's always said it's a 2 year program. I've not been expecting big successes yet, though there are been a lot of achievements, like the cheques Jindal is dolling out in his name.

Diego, they were in full crisis mode & said that this would be a "Jolt" to the economy & then denied that they used that term?
If the Stimulus is so important, how come so little has been distributed?
Also, how are you doing?

452 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:05:08pm

re: #444 Diego

You're right. Damnit, if businesses can get people to work for them for $1 an hour then what's wrong with that! Steams me up that businesses have to actually pay people a minimum! Grr!

///

That's ridiculous.
Supply and demand.

You know anyone over the age of 16 making minimum wage ?

453 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:05:18pm

re: #449 DrNaughty

Supply and demand does work in the labor market as well...

And, unfortunately, whenever government sets a wage or price automatically, competition suffers.

454 Salamantis  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:05:34pm

re: #444 Diego

You're right. Damnit, if businesses can get people to work for them for $1 an hour then what's wrong with that! Steams me up that businesses have to actually pay people a minimum! Grr!

///

A lot of the unemployed homeless would be glad to work for three hots and a cot.

455 Gella  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:05:55pm

re: #422 Desert Dog

But, what if Superman was President? That would be cool!

it would be cool, we'd live in a geek land :)))
///

456 rwmofo  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:06:32pm

re: #403 Diego

I have to wonder what decisions McCain would have made by now and were we would be financially under him and Lil' Miss Brainfart.

Do you have any friends who aren't four-legged or imaginary?

457 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:06:46pm

re: #444 Diego

You're right. Damnit, if businesses can get people to work for them for $1 an hour then what's wrong with that! Steams me up that businesses have to actually pay people a minimum! Grr!

///

Yeah ,, the nerve of the person who started and owns a company, puts all their money and time into it, at best seeing a profit after 5+ years, creating a product or providing a service while crreating jobs

How DARE he run a business the way he sees fit. Imagine, offering a job at a rate that matches the skill set of the employee at a mutually agreeable wage

Tha BASTARDS!

458 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:07:16pm

re: #451 opnion

Diego, they were in full crisis mode & said that this would be a "Jolt" to the economy & then denied that they used that term?
If the Stimulus is so important, how come so little has been distributed?
Also, how are you doing?

I'm good :)

Well, the majority of the program isn't rolled out yet and a good bit is for the health care reform.

459 drogheda  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:07:41pm

re: #445 Charles

There goes redmonkey through the thread, down-dinging all my comments.

Can redmonkey resist pushing the giant, shiny, red, candy-like button?

//All your fault Charles. ;P

460 opnion  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:07:47pm

re: #403 Diego

I have to wonder what decisions McCain would have made by now and were we would be financially under him and Lil' Miss Brainfart.


If youj suspect hidden racism in the opposition to Obama. is your referral to Palin as "Lil Miss Brainfart", sexism?

461 calcajun  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:07:49pm

re: #444 Diego

You're right. Damnit, if businesses can get people to work for them for $1 an hour then what's wrong with that! Steams me up that businesses have to actually pay people a minimum! Grr!

///

Seems we're paying our people an awful lot of money, Winthorp.

Well, there's no getting around the old minimum wage, Mortimer.

--Trading Places

462 Desert Dog  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:07:59pm

re: #457 sattv4u2

Yeah ,, the nerve of the person who started and owns a company, puts all their money and time into it, at best seeing a profit after 5+ years, creating a product or providing a service while crreating jobs

How DARE he run a business the way he sees fit. Imagine, offering a job at a rate that matches the skill set of the employee at a mutually agreeable wage

Tha BASTARDS!

Let's tax the sh*t out of him! Exploiter! Exploiter!

463 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:08:02pm

A kid just volunteered to help me fold laundry! Wonder of wonders, miracle of miracles!

Later, all.

464 Bloodnok  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:08:46pm

re: #459 drogheda

Can redmonkey resist pushing the giant, shiny, red, candy-like button?

//All your fault Charles. ;P

Upding for Ren & Stimpy reference. Carry on.

465 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:08:47pm

re: #462 Desert Dog

Let's tax the sh*t out of him! Exploiter! Exploiter!

AND regulate ,,, lets not forget abhout REGULATIONS!

466 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:08:54pm

re: #463 Lucius Septimius

He's probably looking for a stimulus (grin)

467 shiplord kirel  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:09:14pm

re: #459 drogheda

Can redmonkey resist pushing the giant, shiny, red, candy-like button?

//All your fault Charles. ;P

It's wired directly to the pleasure center of the specimen's brain. I've seen this experiment before.

468 jaunte  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:09:29pm

re: #457 sattv4u2

Don't forget betting the bank everything you own that you'll keep paying them the interest on your working capital / lines of credit.

469 Desert Dog  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:10:06pm

re: #403 Diego

I have to wonder what decisions McCain would have made by now and were we would be financially under him and Lil' Miss Brainfart.

Well, Obama won, McCain lost. Luckily we have a rocket scientist/brain surgeon in as Veep now...whew...

470 opnion  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:10:46pm

re: #458 Diego

I'm good :)

Well, the majority of the program isn't rolled out yet and a good bit is for the health care reform.

That's the point , if they are claiming that the Stimulus is working(with no evidence), why don't they roll out the whole thing & we'll be in Fat City?
I thought that helth care reform was supposed to be revenue neutral.

471 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:10:47pm

re: #469 Desert Dog

Well, Obama won, McCain lost. Luckily we have a rocket scientist/brain surgeon in as Veep now...whew...

I can't see how Biden would be any more inept than Obama is...

472 Salamantis  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:11:16pm

re: #469 Desert Dog

Well, Obama won, McCain lost. Luckily we have a rocket scientist/brain surgeon in as Veep now...whew...

Well, at least a brain surgery recipient...

/close enough for government work

473 avanti  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:11:25pm

re: #434 DrNaughty

If it wasn't so urgent then why the rush to pass it last Feburary ?

To give a promise of stimulation during the depths of the recession. So far, the market is booming, banks are doing much better, housing is starting to turn around and jobs lost is down from 700,000 month to 200,000. It's not over, but the signs are better. How it would have turned out with a different plan is pure speculation, but fast action was needed.
If a year from now, the economy is better, the Dems will get credit, even if the stimulus was not the cause. If it turns back to the downside, the GOP will have a opening.

474 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:11:44pm

re: #444 Diego

You're right. Damnit, if businesses can get people to work for them for $1 an hour then what's wrong with that! Steams me up that businesses have to actually pay people a minimum! Grr!

///

Have you ever owened or run a small business? I have ,, three sepertae times. There were months that would go by that I took nothing but opreating expenses. There were months where I paid my employees 1st and some where nothing was left for me

I went years without more than a week of mvacation ,, NON paid!

475 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:11:56pm

re: #331 Lucius Septimius

Most kids are SOOO freakin' obvious about it it isn't even a challenge. And then they act surprised when they get caught.

My favorite was someone who turned in a research paper, and embedded in the text at several points was "Property of the PaperStore." He didn't even bother to look at what he'd cut and pasted. That and the bunch of guys who all turned in identical homework assignments which all had the same "author" name on the Word properties screen.

My worst moment with this, EVER:

I was teaching ESL to middle-schoolers. We were doing book reports. One of my sixth graders, a cute little girl with pigtails, turns hers in.

Oddly, it is not three to four paragraphs about the book she has been reading in silent reading time, which is about a mouse who goes on an overnight to a friend's house. It is TWENTY PAGES, highly technical, about the origins of the solar system, printed straight off the Internet.

She has drawn a beautiful cover sheet to go with it, in colored pencils.

So I sit down with her.

"Honey, you didn't write this."

"Yes I did. It's my book report."

"Your book report was supposed to be your own writing, about the book you read in silent reading. This is an article about the solar system. It's such hard reading even Mrs. SFZ doesn't understand all of it. And the URL is on each page at the bottom. This isn't your work."

"Yes it is."

"Sweetie, I want you to look me in the eye, and tell me that you wrote these words yourself." (Pointing to the twenty-page paper.)

Tears. And finally--"I didn't understand the directions, and I asked my cousin, and he said this was how you did one!"

Schmuck cousin in the eighth grade. He told her to 'get something off the internet', and she didn't get the fine points.

476 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:11:57pm

re: #470 opnion

That's the point , if they are claiming that the Stimulus is working(with no evidence), why don't they roll out the whole thing & we'll be in Fat City?
I thought that helth care reform was supposed to be revenue neutral.

When you start believing the B.S. that comes out of the White House I've got some oceanfront real estate in Nebraska I think you would be interested in...

477 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:11:59pm

re: #469 Desert Dog

Sorry, but it's just my opinion that Palin is 1) not a thinker and, 2) not intellectually honest

478 avanti  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:12:00pm

re: #445 Charles

There goes redmonkey through the thread, down-dinging all my comments.

You could take away his dinger. :)

479 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:12:19pm

re: #468 jaunte

correct ,, see 474

480 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:12:54pm

re: #473 avanti

To give a promise of stimulation during the depths of the recession. So far, the market is booming, banks are doing much better, housing is starting to turn around and jobs lost is down from 700,000 month to 200,000. It's not over, but the signs are better. How it would have turned out with a different plan is pure speculation, but fast action was needed.

If a year from now, the economy is better, the Dems will get credit, even if the stimulus was not the cause. If it turns back to the downside, the GOP will have a opening.

Bingo

481 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:13:23pm

re: #474 sattv4u2

Have you ever owened or run a small business? I have ,, three sepertae times. There were months that would go by that I took nothing but opreating expenses. There were months where I paid my employees 1st and some where nothing was left for me

I went years without more than a week of mvacation ,, NON paid!

Ever get a job from a poor man ?

482 opnion  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:13:35pm

re: #476 DrNaughty

When you start believing the B.S. that comes out of the White House I've got some oceanfront real estate in Nebraska I think you would be interested in...

They do lie, but such clumsy liars.

483 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:14:05pm

re: #481 SasquatchOnSteroids

Ever get a job from a poor man ?

Nope ,, but as a poor man I created several dozen!

484 austin_blue  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:14:08pm

re: #452 SasquatchOnSteroids

That's ridiculous.
Supply and demand.

You know anyone over the age of 16 making minimum wage ?

Wal-Mart greeters.

485 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:14:23pm

re: #483 sattv4u2

Nope ,, but as a poor man I created several dozen!

DING !!

486 Desert Dog  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:14:39pm

re: #477 Diego

Sorry, but it's just my opinion that Palin is 1) not a thinker and, 2) not intellectually honest

And, that maybe true too. But, Joe Biden is still a moron either way

487 avanti  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:14:43pm

re: #454 Salamantis

A lot of the unemployed homeless would be glad to work for three hots and a cot.

There are plenty of unskilled, minimum wage jobs going begging, so the 3 hots and a cot may not work. Even the fast food places have to pay over that around here.

488 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:15:14pm

re: #484 austin_blue

Wal-Mart greeters.

Do they make minimum ?

The Horror.

Hi, welcome to Wal-Mart.

489 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:15:28pm

re: #473 avanti

To give a promise of stimulation during the depths of the recession. So far, the market is booming, banks are doing much better, housing is starting to turn around and jobs lost is down from 700,000 month to 200,000. It's not over, but the signs are better. How it would have turned out with a different plan is pure speculation, but fast action was needed.
If a year from now, the economy is better, the Dems will get credit, even if the stimulus was not the cause. If it turns back to the downside, the GOP will have a opening.

All indications are of a double-digit recession, possible depression when the real estate market tanks with the 4, 5 and 6 year adjustable loans going belly up in the next few years.

Interest rates will have to be raised substantially. to Carter era levels.. possibly higher when all the inflation hits due to large deficits caused by the treasury flooding the capital market with money generated by its self-financing the deficits.. Especially when foreign sources of capital start drying up...

490 Salamantis  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:15:39pm

re: #487 avanti

There are plenty of unskilled, minimum wage jobs going begging, so the 3 hots and a cot may not work. Even the fast food places have to pay over that around here.

That's because food and cot space cost so much.

491 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:15:41pm

re: #452 SasquatchOnSteroids

That's ridiculous.
Supply and demand.

You know anyone over the age of 16 making minimum wage ?

Yes, I do.

492 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:15:50pm

re: #485 SasquatchOnSteroids

DING !!

How To End Up With A Million Dollars After 5 Short Years


start a small business with 5 million in the bank

493 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:16:24pm

re: #452 SasquatchOnSteroids

You know anyone over the age of 16 making minimum wage ?


Well than, what's the problem? Can't say it's crushing business if it's not generally used. WHy would someone complain about min wage if they're paying higher and it doesn't effect them?

494 Gella  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:16:51pm

US attacks Israel over W Bank settlements
The Obama administration attacked Israel on Friday for giving the green light to the building of hundreds of new homes in the occupied West Bank even as the two sides negotiate a freeze on settlement construction.

Benjamin Netanyahu, Israel’s prime minister, is set to approve the new homes in the coming days, a move that appears aimed at softening opposition within his rightwing Likud party to a temporary settlement freeze.
[Link: www.ft.com...]

495 Desert Dog  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:17:06pm

re: #492 sattv4u2

How To End Up With A Million Dollars After 5 Short Years

start a small business with 5 million in the bank

I am working on my second million. I gave up on the first, it was too damn hard.

496 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:19:44pm

re: #494 Gella

US attacks Israel over W Bank settlements
The Obama administration attacked Israel on Friday for giving the green light to the building of hundreds of new homes in the occupied West Bank even as the two sides negotiate a freeze on settlement construction.

Benjamin Netanyahu, Israel’s prime minister, is set to approve the new homes in the coming days, a move that appears aimed at softening opposition within his rightwing Likud party to a temporary settlement freeze.
[Link: www.ft.com...]

I was in a technical class two weeks ago and we had an Israeli college in it. We do the same line of work. and had much in common.

I asked him why Israel needs to build settlements on land that they know is disputed territory.

He gave me a very simple answer: Our people need a place to live. You have your homes here and we want the same thing in our country.

497 avanti  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:19:45pm

re: #489 DrNaughty

All indications are of a double-digit recession, possible depression when the real estate market tanks with the 4, 5 and 6 year adjustable loans going belly up in the next few years.

Interest rates will have to be raised substantially. to Carter era levels.. possibly higher when all the inflation hits due to large deficits caused by the treasury flooding the capital market with money generated by its self-financing the deficits.. Especially when foreign sources of capital start drying up...

Again, speculation of a pessimistic outcome that only time will tell the outcome. My prediction is that the economy will continue to recover slowly, but be less of a issue next year.

498 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:20:26pm

re: #491 SanFranciscoZionist

Yes, I do.

I don't.

When I used to do the hiring at work, $8/hr was starting rate until you proved you could show up on time and be productive.
That was just for menial work. An intro rate.
Don't do that anymore, but that's how we used to pay.

499 Stickman  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:20:30pm

I don't know...don't think I would resign because of lies and distortions told about me. But that's just me. I think this whole thing reflects badly on President Obama. There is enough smoke there to warrant a second look or maybe the president wanted someone like Jones in the first place. Either way I find his decision to appoint Jones a wee bit disturbing but not unexpected.

500 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:20:41pm

Minimum wage info: [Link: www.dol.gov...]

501 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:20:47pm

re: #497 avanti

Again, speculation of a pessimistic outcome that only time will tell the outcome. My prediction is that the economy will continue to recover slowly, but be less of a issue next year.

You can't spend your way out of debt.. And borrowed money is not free..

502 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:21:45pm

re: #501 DrNaughty

You can't spend your way out of debt.. And borrowed money is not free..

You can't save your way away from a depression either..

503 Desert Dog  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:22:44pm

re: #497 avanti

Again, speculation of a pessimistic outcome that only time will tell the outcome. My prediction is that the economy will continue to recover slowly, but be less of a issue next year.

At some point, confidence will return to the business sector. It will probably be in spite of whatever Obama does. But, as you mentioned, he will gladly take the credit for it. That's the way it works.

On the other hand, if it does not get better...he will deflect the blame. That's the way that works too.

504 [deleted]  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:22:48pm
505 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:23:13pm

re: #493 Diego

Well than, what's the problem? Can't say it's crushing business if it's not generally used. WHy would someone complain about min wage if they're paying higher and it doesn't effect them?

Because you're forcing it on them.
Some of these companies are running on thin as paper margins.
It ends up getting passed on to someone.
Guess who ?

506 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:23:26pm

re: #504 redmonkey

I'd like to cordially invite you to bite me.

507 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:23:29pm

re: #502 Diego

You can't save your way away from a depression either..

It can be done by letting the people keep more of the money they earn

508 S'latch  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:23:32pm

re: #501 DrNaughty

You can't spend your way out of debt.. And borrowed money is not free..

This is just Conservative Republican fear mongering at its worst!

509 JarHeadLifer  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:23:52pm

re: #24 Charles

Van Jones is incredibly respected among environmentalists. I know you hate him, but that's just a fact.

What does that say about environmentalists when they embrace a man who publicly and proudly proclaims that the "green jobs" movement as a ruse designed specifically to undermine and eventually overthrow the free market system that has built this country into what it is today?

If Van Jones is well-respected in the environmental community, I say NO THANKS to the environmental community and the radical social and economic change which they overtly and covertly push for.

510 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:23:56pm

From 2001-2007 2.3 million jobs moved to China and it wasn't due to the minimum wage.

511 DEZes  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:23:56pm

re: #506 Charles

I'd like to cordially invite you to bite me.

LOL!

512 opnion  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:23:58pm

re: #502 Diego

You can't save your way away from a depression either..

Your right, we need more government takeover of the economy.
It worked very well in Eastern Europe, right?
Soon we will be trading Chevy's for turbo charged Unicorns!

513 Desert Dog  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:24:08pm

re: #493 Diego

Well than, what's the problem? Can't say it's crushing business if it's not generally used. WHy would someone complain about min wage if they're paying higher and it doesn't effect them?

How many businesses do you own, Diego?

514 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:24:12pm

re: #505 SasquatchOnSteroids

Because you're forcing it on them.
Some of these companies are running on thin as paper margins.
It ends up getting passed on to someone.
Guess who ?

I should also add that you have to add the skillset for the work required.
Hi, welcome to Wal-Mart isn't a specialty job.
Sorry.

515 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:25:16pm

re: #513 Desert Dog

One. I'm self-employed.

516 avanti  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:25:51pm

re: #494 Gella

US attacks Israel over W Bank settlements
The Obama administration attacked Israel on Friday for giving the green light to the building of hundreds of new homes in the occupied West Bank even as the two sides negotiate a freeze on settlement construction.

Benjamin Netanyahu, Israel’s prime minister, is set to approve the new homes in the coming days, a move that appears aimed at softening opposition within his rightwing Likud party to a temporary settlement freeze.
[Link: www.ft.com...]

This is one issue that I disagree with most of the Lizards on. With peace talks just a few weeks away, expansion of settlements in territories that may become part of a Palestinian state is poor timing at best.
Like Bush, Obama is speaking out about expansion in occupied territories.

517 Desert Dog  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:26:27pm

re: #514 SasquatchOnSteroids

I should also add that you have to add the skillset for the work required.
Hi, welcome to Wal-Mart isn't a specialty job.
Sorry.

If you raise the minimum wage, you cut the number of minimum wage jobs. It is pretty simple to understand. It hurts the very people you want to help.

518 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:26:42pm

re: #516 avanti

This is one issue that I disagree with most of the Lizards on. With peace talks just a few weeks away, expansion of settlements in territories that may become part of a Palestinian state is poor timing at best.
Like Bush, Obama is speaking out about expansion in occupied territories.

Again we agree. If we're not careful we'll end up BFFs :P

519 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:26:54pm

re: #509 JarHeadLifer

What does that say about environmentalists when they embrace a man who publicly and proudly proclaims that the "green jobs" movement as a ruse designed specifically to undermine and eventually overthrow the free market system that has built this country into what it is today?

If Van Jones is well-respected in the environmental community, I say NO THANKS to the environmental community and the radical social and economic change which they overtly and covertly push for.

Are you aware that George W. Bush signed his Green Jobs Act into law? And are you aware that John McCain adviser Meg Whitman said she was "a huge fan of Van Jones?"

I get it. You hate environmentalists.

520 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:27:10pm

re: #505 SasquatchOnSteroids

Because you're forcing it on them.
Some of these companies are running on thin as paper margins.
It ends up getting passed on to someone.
Guess who ?

Lot of these employess are also running on thin as paper margins.

521 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:27:11pm

re: #510 Diego

From 2001-2007 2.3 million jobs moved to China and it wasn't due to the minimum wage.

Whose jobs were they?

522 avanti  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:27:20pm

re: #503 Desert Dog

At some point, confidence will return to the business sector. It will probably be in spite of whatever Obama does. But, as you mentioned, he will gladly take the credit for it. That's the way it works.

On the other hand, if it does not get better...he will deflect the blame. That's the way that works too.

I agree 100%, except we'll have no idea of Obama's effect, good or bad.

523 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:27:41pm

re: #517 Desert Dog

If you raise the minimum wage, you cut the number of minimum wage jobs. It is pretty simple to understand. It hurts the very people you want to help.

Prove it. While you're at it, show how the minimum wage has crippled business in the US from it's inception please.

524 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:28:41pm

re: #516 avanti

This is one issue that I disagree with most of the Lizards on. With peace talks just a few weeks away, expansion of settlements in territories that may become part of a Palestinian state is poor timing at best.
Like Bush, Obama is speaking out about expansion in occupied territories.

Obama has forgotten that there are no "Palestinians". An Arab is an Arab, and even Yassir Arafat was born in Cairo.

If the Arabs that live in the occupied territores want the Israels to stop developing the land they haven't done anything with in decades, instead of complaining about it. They might want to make a deal with Israel, instead of tying to kill them all...

525 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:29:30pm

re: #521 sattv4u2

Whose jobs were they?

From what I understand, manufacturing. Perhaps your friends and neighbours. You know, the ones who's houses are now empty and boarded up and are bringing your house value down?

526 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:29:38pm

re: #520 SanFranciscoZionist

Lot of these employess are also running on thin as paper margins.

Yes they are.
What kind of work are we talking about here ?

527 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:29:54pm

re: #509 JarHeadLifer

What does that say about environmentalists when they embrace a man who publicly and proudly proclaims that the "green jobs" movement as a ruse designed specifically to undermine and eventually overthrow the free market system that has built this country into what it is today?

This, by the way, is completely false.

528 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:30:31pm

re: #525 Diego

From what I understand, manufacturing. Perhaps your friends and neighbours. You know, the ones who's houses are now empty and boarded up and are bringing your house value down?

No,, what I mean is not the people that WORKED at a job. I mean who "owns" the job?

529 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:30:55pm

re: #526 SasquatchOnSteroids

Yes they are.
What kind of work are we talking about here ?

It's called 'The Working Poor'. They have no health coverage and no savings and they never will.

530 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:31:49pm

re: #528 sattv4u2

I mean who "owns" the job?

China :P

531 Digital Display  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:31:54pm

re: #506 Charles

I'd like to cordially invite you to bite me.

RedMonkey has walking the edge of a cliff for awhile...I should have taken odds on the post when he jumped off...

532 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:32:22pm

re: #523 Diego

Prove it. While you're at it, show how the minimum wage has crippled business in the US from it's inception please.

The simple fact is that when wages are increased, Employers have to figure out ways to get the extra funds.

The first way would be to increase the amount of cash coming in. That's easier said than done .. especially considering this economy.

Another way could be to scale back employee hours. Suddenly that increase doesn't seem to matter much, because your employer needs you less.

Or you could simply fire people.

533 opnion  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:32:29pm

re: #525 Diego

From what I understand, manufacturing. Perhaps your friends and neighbours. You know, the ones who's houses are now empty and boarded up and are bringing your house value down?

One of the biggest reasons for loss of manufacturing & assembly jobs is the North American Free Trade Agreement. Both parties supported it, but it awas a Democrat President ,Clinton that pushed for it & signed it.

534 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:32:30pm

re: #529 Diego

It's called 'The Working Poor'. They have no health coverage and no savings and they never will.

So nobody that has or ever had a shitty low paying dead end job with no bennies and no insurance has never bettered themselves?

wow ,, juts ,, WOW


You may want to read about our current Presidents early life!

535 The Shadow Do  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:33:04pm

re: #515 Diego

One. I'm self-employed.

Hi Diego,
This goes a long way in explaining your politics. Can't beat free stuff, no?

536 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:33:10pm

re: #529 Diego

It's called 'The Working Poor'. They have no health coverage and no savings and they never will.

Spare me the Obamagasm.
It's America, not 1800's Russia.

537 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:33:12pm

re: #530 Diego

China :P

Bad attempt at humor, but I'll try again. Whose job is it?

538 avanti  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:33:28pm

re: #524 DrNaughty

Obama has forgotten that there are no "Palestinians". An Arab is an Arab, and even Yassir Arafat was born in Cairo.

If the Arabs that live in the occupied territores want the Israels to stop developing the land they haven't done anything with in decades, instead of complaining about it. They might want to make a deal with Israel, instead of tying to kill them all...

The concept of manifest destiny does not appeal to me. If a Arab is just grazing cattle on his land, the Israelis building a apartment building does not give them the right to take his land.
You could make the point that the land is the spoils of war, but at some point, both sides need to end the fighting and make peace. Having said that, I'll give you the Pali's have not been a honest broker in decades.

539 JarHeadLifer  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:33:36pm

re: #519 Charles

Are you aware that George W. Bush signed his Green Jobs Act into law? And are you aware that John McCain adviser Meg Whitman said she was "a huge fan of Van Jones?"

I get it. You hate environmentalists.

I hardly hate "environmentalists". But, I do hate socialists, Marxists and communists using an important issue - like the well being of Earth's ecology - to undermine America's foundational economic system. I'm especially loathsome when they do it in a covert and disingenuous way - by design.

Van Jones, and his ilk, couldn't give a rat's ass about jobs - green or otherwise. He's solely focused on the destruction of the free market system, hoping that is the final coup d'état to the country he so obviously hates.

And, it's not might fault George Bush, John McCain and Meg Whitman are functional retards.

540 Salamantis  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:33:59pm

"... I think that this green movement has to pursue those same steps and stages. Right now we say we want to move from suicidal gray capitalism to something eco-capitalism where at least we're not fast-tracking the destruction of the whole planet. Will that be enough? No, it won't be enough. We want to go beyond the systems of exploitation and oppression altogether. But, that's a process and I think that's what's great about the movement that is beginning to emerge is that the crisis is so severe in terms of joblessness, violence and now ecological threats that people are willing to be both pragmatic and visionary. So the green economy will start off as a small subset and we are going to push it and push it and push it until it becomes the engine for transforming the whole society"

541 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:34:10pm

re: #526 SasquatchOnSteroids

Yes they are.
What kind of work are we talking about here ?

Among people I know? Store employees mostly.

542 rwmofo  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:34:38pm

re: #523 Diego

Prove it. While you're at it, show how the minimum wage has crippled business in the US from it's inception please.



Proof.

There are several more examples.

Disprove it.

543 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:34:53pm

re: #534 sattv4u2

You've made quite a leap there. Maybe you should be in the Olympics ;) :P

To be fair though: try supporting a family on minimum wage and 'bettering yourself' with college, etc. Not easy, often not possible. It can be done and it is done, but not often.

544 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:35:34pm

re: #529 Diego

re: #534 sattv4u2

So nobody that has or ever had a shitty low paying dead end job with no bennies and no insurance has never bettered themselves?

wow ,, juts ,, WOW


You may want to read about our current Presidents early life!

Or Bill Clintons for that matter

545 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:36:03pm

re: #539 JarHeadLifer

Van Jones, and his ilk, couldn't give a rat's ass about jobs - green or otherwise. He's solely focused on the destruction of the free market system, hoping that is the final coup d'état to the country he so obviously hates.

Not true. Van Jones HAS done a lot to create green jobs. You could try ... you know ... actually finding out the facts before you spout off about it?

And, it's not might fault George Bush, John McCain and Meg Whitman are functional retards.

Ohhhkay.

546 opnion  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:36:09pm

re: #540 Salamantis

"... I think that this green movement has to pursue those same steps and stages. Right now we say we want to move from suicidal gray capitalism to something eco-capitalism where at least we're not fast-tracking the destruction of the whole planet. Will that be enough? No, it won't be enough. We want to go beyond the systems of exploitation and oppression altogether. But, that's a process and I think that's what's great about the movement that is beginning to emerge is that the crisis is so severe in terms of joblessness, violence and now ecological threats that people are willing to be both pragmatic and visionary. So the green economy will start off as a small subset and we are going to push it and push it and push it until it becomes the engine for transforming the whole society"

I heard the audio on that . The "Green Jobs:" meme is just a ruse.

547 Killgore Trout  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:36:15pm

Attn: Conservative Lizards
Fighting for the Right: The WorldNetDaily story continues
by Jon Henke

WorldNetDaily will not be at CPAC next year. I exchanged emails with the CPAC organizer earlier today and she told me this:

[WorldNetDaily founder Joseph] Farah asked if he could speak on the issue (birther movement), but that isn't something we're interested in.


...
If any other organizations wish to let it be known that they also reject or renounce association with WorldNetDaily, please email me.

Perhaps you could also encourage CPAC to reject Par Buchanan this year too. I'd suggest Ron Paul but that might not be practical.

I'm not calling for a "purge" of the grassroots and I certainly hope we don't have to choose between "grassroots" and "reality". If we do have to choose between the two, we lose. William F. Buckley's rejection of the John Birch Society is a very important precedent, so it's worth remembering how Buckley responded to criticisms of his editorial.

It was precisely my desire to strengthen the ranks of conservatism that led me to publish the editorial. Our movement has got to govern. It has got to expand by bringing into our ranks those people who are, at the moment, on our immediate Left - the moderate, wishy-washy conservatives; the Nixonites… I am talking… about 20 to 30 million people… If they are being asked to join a movement whose leadership believes the drivel of [the Birch Society leadership], they will pass by crackpot alley, and will not pause until they feel the warm embrace of those way over on the other side, the Liberals."

My view is this: If Republicans don't clean up their own house, they cannot govern. They may win elections again, but they won't be able to do anything with it; they won't know what to do with it. [See: 2001-2009] We can't have a two-party system composed of Democrats and Not-Democrats.


Read the whole thing. Many people have pestered me for solutions to clean up the Tea Parties. This guy might have answers and ideas for you. Contact him and get involved.

548 JarHeadLifer  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:36:43pm

re: #527 Charles

This, by the way, is completely false.

I would invite to read the following Powerlineblog story. Jones' own words say otherwise.

[Link: www.powerlineblog.com...]

549 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:38:03pm

Time for a breather.

i.e. out of beer.

550 opnion  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:38:29pm

re: #548 JarHeadLifer

I would invite to read the following Powerlineblog story. Jones' own words say otherwise.

[Link: www.powerlineblog.com...]

Semper Fi, lifer. Thank's for your service.

551 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:38:44pm

re: #542 rwmofo


Proof.

That's not proof. It's a study from 1996 showing what could happen if the minimum wage was increased. Show that it came true and you'll have some proof.

552 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:39:13pm

re: #547 Killgore Trout

While I like the idea of this intiative, it's pretty disappointing to see Henke praising Robert Stacy McCain, who is associated with some really disgusting racist causes.

553 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:39:13pm

re: #543 Diego

You've made quite a leap there. Maybe you should be in the Olympics ;) :P

To be fair though: try supporting a family on minimum wage and 'bettering yourself' with college, etc. Not easy, often not possible. It can be done and it is done, but not often.

I did it! I know others who have, close friends ,,, relatives,,,

You're now self employed. Ever work a shitty dead end job? Are you better now? If not, you have resources to do it, and YES ,, even now in this economy!

See, thats the difference between a free market self proficient mind set (conservative) and the whoa is me, where's my free cheese, someone else has to help me,, it takes a village (liberal) mindset

554 itellu3times  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:39:57pm

And now for something completely different, it's
Madonna in Israel

“She looked amazing, especially for her age — but not really what I would consider an ‘observant’ Jewish woman’s dress,” said Rachel Homesh, a teenager who attended one of the gigs. “We didn’t really think that she would show up all covered up. She wouldn’t be able to dance. The most she wore was at the very end, when she put on a Jewish flag.”

The decision to drape Madonna in the Star of David — handed to her by someone in the audience — sparked fury from Palestinians. Hania Bitar, director-general of the Palestinian Youth Association for Leadership and Rights Activation, said the move had led to protests in the West Bank and Gaza. She also criticised Madonna for not meeting with any Palestinian politicians or visiting the occupied territories.

555 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:40:11pm

re: #543 Diego

So ,, for the third time ,, the job that went overseas. Whose job is it?

556 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:40:53pm

re: #529 Diego

It's called 'The Working Poor'. They have no health coverage and no savings and they never will.

The fact is that advocates for the minimum wage increases love to use this phrase "the working poor."

However, nobody in their right mind should expect for you to raise a family earning minimum wage. If you do you are a failure in life and have no buisness raising children.

The good thing is though that with this minimum wage increase, and Obama wants to raise it up to about $11/hr, , it looks like we are going to have a lot less "working poor" people to worry about and more people living under bridge overpasses...

Probably good news for the Democrats.

557 BlueCanuck  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:41:52pm

re: #555 sattv4u2

So ,, for the third time ,, the job that went overseas. Whose job is it?

Simple. It's not mine, my brothers, my cousins, or my friends...

558 karmic_inquisitor  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:41:52pm

re: #231 Athens Runaway

You said Cass wasn't a "frothing ideologue" and said he was just a happily misguided egghead... your exact words were "idealistic academic." The opposite of "frothing ideologue" is "political moderate," is it not? If one is claimed to be not a wingnut, you're saying they're moderate-ish.

So by saying he is not a "frothing ideologue" I was asserting that he is the opposite? So if I say "it is not hot outside today" then I must be asserting that it is freezing? Could it not be "warm?"

I'm also confused how you don't consider "give animals legal standing," "ban all hunting," and "we should pay our taxes and like it, damnit!" to be frothy beliefs that are outside of mainstream political thought. Just because he's a professor doesn't mean he doesn't hold crazy beliefs.

Again - where did I comment on that? Where did I comment on "give animals legal standing"?

I know you are frustrated. Cass ain't my cup of tea and I disagree with him - something I made clear above. But does the guy now have to be made victim of a Glenn Beck moment-of-hate? Why not just say "I oppose Cass Sustein and his soft paternalism (and other policy positions) for reasons x, y and z?" Reasons like - "they aren't grounded in reality." Or "paternalism is paternalism."

559 Killgore Trout  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:42:20pm

re: #552 Charles

While I like the idea of this intiative, it's pretty disgusting to see Henke praising Robert Stacy McCain, who is associated with some really disgusting racist causes.

Ah, I recognized the name but not familiar with R. McCain. Buckley supported some bad stuff himself so he was pretty imperfect too. I'm pleased to see the general spirit live on in some remote corner of the conservative sphere.

560 claire  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:42:20pm

The reviews for Van Jones book aren't all that great either. He's apparently long on cheerleading and short on specifics.

561 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:42:57pm

BBIAW ,,, (damn ESPN ,,, imagine their nerve wanting me to do work for them while I'm at work!!)

562 Desert Dog  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:43:05pm

re: #523 Diego

Prove it. While you're at it, show how the minimum wage has crippled business in the US from it's inception please.

Heritage Reports

Now, you prove to me it creates jobs or makes life better for anyone. Most people make much more than minimum wage. If you increase costs for a business, they have less to spend on things like new employees.

I own my own company. I have 4 employees right now. I had 8 a year ago. When times are tough and you have to save money, the fastest way to do that is reduce your payroll expenses and get more out of the workers you have retained. Or, in my case, work like a slave yourself to make up the difference.

563 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:43:08pm

re: #553 sattv4u2

Friend, I've worked for minimum wage and I was damned glad to get it. I also knew if it wasn't a law I'd have been working for a lot less. I put my way through community college on that minimum wage, which I wouldn't have been able to do if there had been no minimum.

When there was no minimum wage your job became a trap: you couldn't afford to leave it and you couldn't afford to stay. You had to work every hour you could just to pay the rent and eat and had no time or money to better yourself.

564 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:44:17pm

re: #559 Killgore Trout

Ah, I recognized the name but not familiar with R. McCain. Buckley supported some bad stuff himself so he was pretty imperfect too. I'm pleased to see the general spirit live on in some remote corner of the conservative sphere.

Robert Stacy McCain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

McCain has been criticized by the Southern Poverty Law Center, who called him a member of the white supremacist hate group, League of the South and "has often inserted excerpts of material written by hate groups" into the Times. "In addition, McCain is the only national reporter to cover four conferences put on by American Renaissance. Until 2004, McCain had never mentioned its controversial nature." [30]

In a comment posted on February 20 2009, McCain seemed to advocate the massacre of the Palestinian inhabitants of the West Bank and Gaza:

Swear to God, if they ever want a Gentile prime minister, my first order would be to deploy the IDF in a north-south line, facing east. My second order would be "forward march" and the order to halt would not be given until it was time for the troops to rinse their bayonets in the Jordan. After a brief rest halt, the order "about face" would be given, and the next halt would be at the Mediterranean coast.

That's my "Middle East peace plan," and until it's carried out, there will be no peace.

The League of the South and American Renaissance are openly white supremacist groups.

565 rwmofo  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:44:39pm

re: #551 Diego

That's not proof. It's a study from 1996 showing what could happen if the minimum wage was increased. Show that it came true and you'll have some proof.

Hmmm, I say three things and you respond to one and fail. There were only seven more words. Try reading them again.

566 shiplord kirel  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:45:10pm

Worst case: Riding the wave of triumphalist gloating over the Jones resignation, Glenn Beck becomes the de facto voice of the opposition then suffers a disastrous public breakdown that results in clinical intervention. He can eventually embark on a new career based on a contrite exploitation of his eventual recovery but the conservative opposition is smeared forever.
Nixon hatchetman Charles Colson is a good precedent.

567 Ojoe  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:45:29pm

re: #445 Charles

Who put the damn in rama dama ding down?

568 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:45:40pm

When I was 15, I got a job at the ACME supermarket in my neighborhood, bagging groceries for 2 or 3 hours a day after school. when people were getting off work and the store was busy with people shopping on their way home.

I was there about three months, working for minimum wage and at the time the minimum wage went up I think a quarter. When that happened I got called into the manager's office and was told that I'd have to be let go. I was the last one hired and there was only so much money for bag boys.. and that he couldn't afford to keep me.

My introduction to government intervention in the workplace...

569 pat  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:45:41pm

Whether Jones said his Green Collar Economy is a duplicitous method to destroy capitalism is unknown to me. But his green collar economy describes government intervention in every aspect of business, from hiring to product design and selection. There is absolutely no aspect of life that is not 'corrected'. And race permeates the entire discussion.

570 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:45:59pm

re: #556 DrNaughty

However, nobody in their right mind should expect for you to raise a family earning minimum wage. If you do you are a failure in life and have no buisness raising children.

So you're working in a manufacturing job and it moves to China and the only job you can get is a min wage job at the local feed store which has no health care and so you're a failure at life and should give up your children for adoption?

People really think like this?

571 Killgore Trout  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:46:01pm

re: #564 Charles

I see he's also writing for Taki's magazine too. Ugh.

572 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:46:11pm

re: #563 Diego

Friend, I've worked for minimum wage and I was damned glad to get it. I also knew if it wasn't a law I'd have been working for a lot less. I put my way through community college on that minimum wage, which I wouldn't have been able to do if there had been no minimum.

When there was no minimum wage your job became a trap: you couldn't afford to leave it and you couldn't afford to stay. You had to work every hour you could just to pay the rent and eat and had no time or money to better yourself.

But you just told us those there would NEVER have health ins nor savings!

Yet ,, YOU did it ,, I've done it ,, many others I know have !!

573 itellu3times  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:46:14pm

re: #560 claire

The reviews for Van Jones book aren't all that great either. He's apparently long on cheerleading and short on specifics.

surprize, surprize.

the whole idea of "green jobs" is short on specifics.

"green" by definition seems to imply capturing externalized costs, thinking globally and acting locally - but that is pretty much necessarily always going to mean the government captures those costs to overpay people for what the job is doing - job would be done cheaper, or not at all, if it wasn't "green".

again, almost be definition, if the job turns a profit and pays for itself then it doesn't need government encouragement.

574 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:47:18pm

re: #571 Killgore Trout

I see he's also writing for Taki's magazine too. Ugh.

Yep. And he's a Pat Buchanan booster too. Exactly the wrong person to be any kind of spokesman for the right.

But that's where we're at these days.

575 Digital Display  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:47:22pm

re: #561 sattv4u2

BBIAW ,,, (damn ESPN ,,, imagine their nerve wanting me to do work for them while I'm at work!!)

Stupid Red Sox/White Sox game is Blacked out...I guess MLB thinks I should drive north for 4 hours and catch it...Grrr...
For no other rational reason at all.. I blame Van Jones
/I like to stay on topic
*wink*

576 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:47:40pm

re: #570 Diego

So you're working in a manufacturing job and it moves to China and the only job you can get is a min wage job at the local feed store which has no health care and so you're a failure at life and should give up your children for adoption?

People really think like this?

Clearly you chose not to invest in yorur education or skills which you can bring to the marketplace.

There is a price for that stupidity.

577 winnd54  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:47:42pm

Usually when somebody suggests what a great idea raising the minimum wage is I just say "why not raise it to 50.00 an hour?". The arguments that are made against doing this are the same arguments that can be used for any minimum wage. If someone says 50.00 is too much, I ask them what the magic number is...

578 Bloodnok  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:48:14pm

re: #570 Diego

So you're working in a manufacturing job and it moves to China and the only job you can get is a min wage job at the local feed store which has no health care and so you're a failure at life and should give up your children for adoption?

People really think like this?

Agreed. Shocking.

579 sagehen  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:48:48pm

re: #496 DrNaughty

I asked him why Israel needs to build settlements on land that they know is disputed territory.

He gave me a very simple answer: Our people need a place to live. You have your homes here and we want the same thing in our country.


Sounds like he expects Israel to keep that land forever.

I liked Lawhawk's answer a lot better (paraphrase: "so what? if the land gets transferred the house will go with it, why is that a problem?")

580 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:49:14pm

I linked to Henke's first post, but if that's the kind of person he thinks should be leading the charge against World Net Daily, count me out of his "movement."

581 opnion  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:49:27pm

re: #575 HoosierHoops

Stupid Red Sox/White Sox game is Blacked out...I guess MLB thinks I should drive north for 4 hours and catch it...Grrr...
For no other rational reason at all.. I blame Van Jones
/I like to stay on topic
*wink*


White Sox took the last two off of Boston. This is really hurting the Red Sox chances for the Wild Card.
The White Sox are barely alive for post season, but I am still hopeing.

582 Racer X  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:49:41pm

Who cares about Van Jones? I don't. I see this as a distraction from more important issues.

583 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:50:11pm

re: #582 Racer X

Who cares about Van Jones? I don't. I see this as a distraction from more important issues.

It's blood in the water.

584 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:50:21pm

re: #582 Racer X

Who cares about Van Jones? I don't. I see this as a distraction from more important issues.

Aye, like mocking Beck! :P

585 itellu3times  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:50:42pm

re: #496 DrNaughty

I asked him why Israel needs to build settlements on land that they know is disputed territory.

Cuz the idiot Palis are disputing every inch of Israel, it's no use paying any attention to anything they say.

586 Salamantis  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:50:49pm

Here's an example of green jobs in my county:

The county had converyor belts installed that carry collected garbage fom the trucks to the bins, and hired minimum wage workers to pick it over for recyclables, which are then sold.

The program runs more than a hunded thou in the red each year, and employs about two dozen workers.

587 claire  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:51:11pm

re: #563 Diego

Most people, if they are reliable, work hard, have a good attitude and take on responsibility without being asked can rise above minimum wage fairly quickly. In my experience, it's the ones lacking one or more of the above traits who struggle. I think there needs to be pressure from society to clean up ones act, but that's just my observation as an employee and an employer.

588 opnion  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:51:12pm

See ya

589 Racer X  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:52:05pm

Critics march against Chavez across Latin America

BOGOTA – Thousands of opponents of Hugo Chavez marched against the Venezuelan president across Latin America on Friday, accusing him of everything from authoritarianism to international meddling.

The protests, coordinated through Twitter and Facebook, drew more than 5,000 people in Bogota, and thousands more in the capitals of Venezuela and Honduras. Smaller demonstrations were held in other Latin American capitals, as well as New York and Madrid.

The Honduras march was led by Roberto Micheletti, who became president when Chavez ally Manuel Zelaya was ousted in a June coup.

"Any politician who tries to stay in power by hitching up with a dictator like Hugo Chavez, he won't achieve it," Micheletti said. "We'll stop him."

Chavez, who was traveling in Syria, ridiculed the protests, likening Micheletti to a gorilla and saying: "Those who want to march, march with 'Goriletti,' the dictators, the extreme right."
Chavez supporters held smaller counter-demonstrations, including a Caracas rally that drew nearly 200 people. Police in Quito, Ecuador, intervened to keep pro- and anti-Chavez groups from clashing.

Turnout at the anti-Chavez rallies was far from massive in many cities. A dozen people gathered in Sao Paulo, while about 200 turned out in New York, Madrid and Miami. Protests also were held in the capitals of Argentina, Ecuador, Chile, Panama and Bolivia.

Protest organizer Marcela Garzon in Colombia said she didn't care about the numbers. "The quantity doesn't interest us, but rather the quality," she said.

590 [deleted]  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:52:24pm
591 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:52:33pm

re: #586 Salamantis

Here's an example of green jobs in my county:

The county had converyor belts installed that carry collected garbage fom the trucks to the bins, and hired minimum wage workers to pick it over for recyclables, which are then sold.

The program runs more than a hunded thou in the red each year, and employs about two dozen workers.

CHANGE!

592 Killgore Trout  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:52:39pm

re: #580 Charles

I linked to Henke's first post, but if that's the kind of person he thinks should be leading the charge against World Net Daily, count me out of his "movement."

Yeah, you're probably right. I checked the wording and R. McCain certainly isn't somebody who should be "appreciated".

593 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:52:39pm

re: #542 rwmofo


Proof.

There are several more examples.

Disprove it.

This is interesting ... it looks like bloggers are the main subgroup impacted by the legislation.

594 Ojoe  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:52:44pm

I think that "solar" and "sustainable" belong to everyone & so I hope Obama does not appoint another "green" czar, further politicizing something that should just be common sense.

I "hope" for this "change."

595 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:52:49pm

re: #587 claire

I agree, but where would that scale go if there was no minimum wage?

596 itellu3times  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:53:33pm

re: #586 Salamantis

Here's an example of green jobs in my county:

The county had converyor belts installed that carry collected garbage fom the trucks to the bins, and hired minimum wage workers to pick it over for recyclables, which are then sold.

The program runs more than a hunded thou in the red each year, and employs about two dozen workers.

Van Jones brilliant idea is government-paid jobs to caulk and insulate homes, replace old appliances.

I actually talked to a small construction company, gearing up to apply for that government money.

Which I have no doubt would then be spent on illegal aliens working for minimum wage or less, doing the work.

597 [deleted]  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:53:46pm
598 Racer X  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:53:56pm

Chavez minister vows more Venezuela radio closings

* Radio stations to be pulled after 34 closed in August
* Critics say hits free speech, government says democratic
* Anti-Chavez TV network in the spotlight over coup rumor

CARACAS, Sept 5 (Reuters) - Venezuela will pull the plug on 29 more radio stations, a top official in President Hugo Chavez's government said on Saturday, just weeks after dozens of other outlets were closed in a media clampdown.

Infrastructure Minister Diosdado Cabello closed 34 radio stations in July, saying the government was "democratizing" media ownership. Critics say the move limits freedom of expression and has taken critical voices off the airwaves.

The powerful Chavez ally has threatened to close over 100 stations in total, part of a long-term campaign against private media that the government says are biased against Chavez's government.

"Another 29 will be gone before long," he told thousands of Chavez supporters at a political rally, without giving details which stations would be closed or when.

Cabello also said he was launching a new legal case against Globovision, the country's most prominent anti-government television network, accusing it of inciting a coup against Chavez.

599 [deleted]  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:54:09pm
600 Mr Pancakes  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:54:16pm

re: #533 opnion

NAFTA wouldn't have mattered... the only benefit I saw with NAFTA was the ability to move materials back and forth a little easier. It was also easier to set up international (North American) companies ... so, less red tape.

Chinese labor is so cheap that even Mexico couldn't compete. I know because I worked for a manufacturing concern in Mexico... we were going to be that "bridge" between the US and China in price... right here in North America!

It didn't work, we were paying our employees around a buck an hour (mid 90's). What our employees were making in a day China was paying their employees in a week, with far more efficiency...

This industry had over 5000 plants big and small in the US in the mid 80's. Less than 400 now still exist in the US. Mexico has none (outside of far east owned) any longer.

Raw materials are pretty much globally set.

It gets worse...China is now looking to outsource to North Viet Nam.

601 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:54:20pm

If you post another link to the hate site rense.com you're going to lose your account.

602 Digital Display  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:54:28pm

re: #581 opnion

White Sox took the last two off of Boston. This is really hurting the Red Sox chances for the Wild Card.
The White Sox are barely alive for post season, but I am still hopeing.

My 2 favorite Baseball teams. Giants for the NL and Boston for the AL..
Boston comes to Chicago and I can't see the games...
/I hope you are having a wonderful Holiday weekend...It overcast here...Seen any sunshine up there?

603 debutaunt  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:54:37pm

re: #444 Diego

You're right. Damnit, if businesses can get people to work for them for $1 an hour then what's wrong with that! Steams me up that businesses have to actually pay people a minimum! Grr!

///

Nice job of completely missing the point.

604 Racer X  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:55:56pm

US attacks Israel over W Bank settlements

The Obama administration attacked Israel on Friday for giving the green light to the building of hundreds of new homes in the occupied West Bank even as the two sides negotiate a freeze on settlement construction.

Benjamin Netanyahu, Israel’s prime minister, is set to approve the new homes in the coming days, a move that appears aimed at softening opposition within his rightwing Likud party to a temporary settlement freeze.

605 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:55:57pm

re: #603 debutaunt

I didn't mean to be unfair, perhaps I misunderstood?

606 [deleted]  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:56:13pm
607 The Shadow Do  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:57:06pm

re: #581 opnion

White Sox took the last two off of Boston. This is really hurting the Red Sox chances for the Wild Card.
The White Sox are barely alive for post season, but I am still hopeing.

Red Sox are safe. Damn Rangers keep losing to likes of Baltimore!

608 Desert Dog  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:57:35pm

re: #578 Bloodnok

Agreed. Shocking.

It is shocking! I think the government should step in...give that guy free healthcare. Then, he they should give him food stamps, government housing, free bus fare, and a new suit. As for his kids, they can become wards of the state as well. Free toys, free candy, etc.

And, to pay for all of this, we'll just tax his employer! Now that's what I call compassion!

609 Athos  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:57:44pm

re: #574 Charles

Yep. And he's a Pat Buchanan booster too. Exactly the wrong person to be any kind of spokesman for the right.

But that's where we're at these days.

Am I missing something re: Henke's piece and Robert S McCain?

Here's from Henke:

[5] I always appreciate Robert Stacy McCain's blogging - he really is a terrific writer - but he misunderstands my argument about WorldNetDaily. I'm not calling for a "purge" of the grassroots and I certainly hope we don't have to choose between "grassroots" and "reality". If we do have to choose between the two, we lose. William F. Buckley's rejection of the John Birch Society is a very important precedent, so it's worth remembering how Buckley responded to criticisms of his editorial.

It was precisely my desire to strengthen the ranks of conservatism that led me to publish the editorial. Our movement has got to govern. It has got to expand by bringing into our ranks those people who are, at the moment, on our immediate Left - the moderate, wishy-washy conservatives; the Nixonites… I am talking… about 20 to 30 million people… If they are being asked to join a movement whose leadership believes the drivel of [the Birch Society leadership], they will pass by crackpot alley, and will not pause until they feel the warm embrace of those way over on the other side, the Liberals."

My view is this: If Republicans don't clean up their own house, they cannot govern. They may win elections again, but they won't be able to do anything with it; they won't know what to do with it. [See: 2001-2009] We can't have a two-party system composed of Democrats and Not-Democrats.

Beating Democrats is not enough. We need to actually have something worth beating them with.

I quoted the whole part that addresses RS McCain - and is this -

I always appreciate Robert Stacy McCain's blogging - he really is a terrific writer ...

sufficient to link Henke and the core of his meme to accepting the nutters / fringe like McCain?

610 Racer X  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:57:49pm
'Massive' ancient wall uncovered in Jerusalem

JERUSALEM (CNN) -- An archaeological dig in Jerusalem has turned up a 3,700-year-old wall that is the largest and oldest of its kind found in the region, experts say.


The wall is built of enormous boulders, confounding archaeologists as to how ancient peoples built it.

Standing 8 meters (26 feet) high, the wall of huge cut stones is a marvel to archaeologists.

"To build straight walls up 8 meters ... I don't know how to do it today without mechanical equipment," said the excavation's director, Ronny Reich. "I don't think that any engineer today without electrical power [could] do it."

Archaeologist Eli Shukron of the Israel Antiquities Authority added, "You see all the big boulders -- all the boulders are 4 to 5 tons."

The discovered section is 24 meters (79 feet) long. "However, it is thought the fortification is much longer because it continues west beyond the part that was exposed," the Israel Antiquities Authority said in a news release.

Roger Waters was unavailable for comment.

611 midwestgak  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:58:26pm

Not nice to have a smart mouth after being warned. bye.

612 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:58:48pm

re: #608 Desert Dog

It is shocking! I think the government should step in...give that guy free healthcare. Then, he they should give him food stamps, government housing, free bus fare, and a new suit. As for his kids, they can become wards of the state as well. Free toys, free candy, etc.

And, to pay for all of this, we'll just tax his employer! Now that's what I call compassion!

I would support the the government providing him a student loan to increase his job skills and making him more valuable to tha marketplace.

613 Killgore Trout  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:59:08pm

re: #580 Charles

I just checked out Henke's links on the sidebar. Lot's of tea Party Sponsors and groups like Republican Liberty Caucus (Endorses creeps like Ron Paul and Sanford). Henke's got the right talk but he's not the man for the job.

614 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:59:24pm

re: #609 Athos

sufficient to link Henke and the core of his meme to accepting the nutters / fringe like McCain?

He's talking about Republicans cleaning house while praising a blogger who's linked to openly white supremacist groups? Yeah, I'd say that's a problem.

615 captdiggs  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:59:24pm

His own statements and positions sunk him, nothing else.
He was asked to leave because Obama knew there really was going to be no defense, and the more people dig, the more there was going to be to defend.
The term "smears" indicates falsehoods. He in fact calls the allegations "lies". If they were false, you stay and prove that.
The fact is that he signed the "truther" document, and his only defense of that was stupidity.

616 Ojoe  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 12:59:31pm

Woah, they're falling like flies.

617 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:00:07pm

re: #616 Ojoe

Woah, they're falling like flies.

More like lemmings ;)

618 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:00:13pm

re: #615 captdiggs

His own statements and positions sunk him, nothing else.
He was asked to leave because Obama knew there really was going to be no defense, and the more people dig, the more there was going to be to defend.
The term "smears" indicates falsehoods. He in fact calls the allegations "lies". If they were false, you stay and prove that.
The fact is that he signed the "truther" document, and his only defense of that was stupidity.

I suppose claiming Bush Derangement Syndrome wasn't good enough ?

619 Athos  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:00:27pm

re: #580 Charles

Where was the link to that call by Henke - would help me better understand and answer the question I posed in #609...

620 Bloodnok  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:00:42pm

re: #608 Desert Dog

It is shocking! I think the government should step in...give that guy free healthcare. Then, he they should give him food stamps, government housing, free bus fare, and a new suit. As for his kids, they can become wards of the state as well. Free toys, free candy, etc.

And, to pay for all of this, we'll just tax his employer! Now that's what I call compassion!

Strawmen for sale, cheap. Post 608. Get 'em while they last.

621 Desert Dog  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:01:15pm

re: #620 Bloodnok

Strawmen for sale, cheap. Post 608. Get 'em while they last.

It's shocking you would say that.

622 Killgore Trout  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:01:30pm

re: #609 Athos

Somebody as vile as R. McCain should be treated with scorn from anyone looking to clean up the conservative side of the isle. Why would anyone "appreciate" him? Would you say the same thing about Pat Buchanan?

623 sagehen  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:02:22pm

re: #566 shiplord kirel

Worst case: Riding the wave of triumphalist gloating over the Jones resignation, Glenn Beck becomes the de facto voice of the opposition then suffers a disastrous public breakdown that results in clinical intervention.

Does that mean Rush Limbaugh isn't the party leader anymore?

624 Bloodnok  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:02:22pm

re: #621 Desert Dog

It's shocking you would say that.

Last word = WIN.

You've won! Huzzah!

625 Racer X  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:02:33pm
Internet addiction center opens in US

FALL CITY, Wash. (AP) - Ben Alexander spent nearly every waking minute playing the video game "World of Warcraft." As a result, he flunked out of the University of Iowa.

Alexander, 19, needed help to break an addiction he calls as destructive as alcohol or drugs. He found it in this suburb of high-tech Seattle, where what claims to be the first residential treatment center for Internet addiction in the United States just opened its doors.

Psst, hey buddy, wanna buy some net?

626 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:02:50pm

re: #622 Killgore Trout

Somebody as vile as R. McCain should be treated with scorn from anyone looking to clean up the conservative side of the isle. Why would anyone "appreciate" him? Would you say the same thing about Pat Buchanan?

He's also a big supporter of Pamela Geller, has viciously attacked me at his site for criticizing her, and tried to whitewash the neo-Nazi linked ProKoln group.

627 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:02:53pm

re: #623 sagehen

Does that mean Rush Limbaugh isn't the party leader anymore?

Aye, it's Glen Beck..

628 Ojoe  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:03:15pm

I like the Queen of England.

God save the Queen.


BBL.

629 Digital Display  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:03:37pm

re: #622 Killgore Trout

Somebody as vile as R. McCain should be treated with scorn from anyone looking to clean up the conservative side of the isle. Why would anyone "appreciate" him? Would you say the same thing about Pat Buchanan?

I can't wait to read somebody that says we need Ron Paul to clean up the GOP.. You know it's coming..
/Hi KT!

630 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:03:42pm

re: #627 Diego

Aye, it's Glen Beck..

I'd prefer Ann Coulter...

A 6' blond is always a good choice...

631 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:04:45pm

re: #630 DrNaughty

I'd prefer Ann Coulter...

Oh thanks, I just hurled on my keyboard..

It was a nice keyboard too, backlit..

632 Desert Dog  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:05:09pm

re: #624 Bloodnok

Last word = WIN.

You've won! Huzzah!

What have I won!? The crappy parting gifts or what's behind curtain number 1?

;-)

633 debutaunt  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:05:09pm

re: #493 Diego

Well than, what's the problem? Can't say it's crushing business if it's not generally used. WHy would someone complain about min wage if they're paying higher and it doesn't effect them?

then

634 avanti  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:05:28pm

re: #587 claire

Most people, if they are reliable, work hard, have a good attitude and take on responsibility without being asked can rise above minimum wage fairly quickly. In my experience, it's the ones lacking one or more of the above traits who struggle. I think there needs to be pressure from society to clean up ones act, but that's just my observation as an employee and an employer.

I once worked for a small plumbing company as a teenager with two other older guys in the warehouse that had just been coasting. After six months, I was running the warehouse by myself, replacing the other two and asked for a raise and was turned down. I quit, joined the Navy and never looked back. At least in the Navy I up moved up in rank and pay for hard work.
After I got out, I became a commissioned sales rep for a auto parts company and quit after they wanted to cut my commission in half when my sales got high enough that I was making "too much money"
Some businesses have no idea how to keep good help.

635 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:06:05pm

re: #633 debutaunt

Typo, replying too fast to posts which are/were coming too fast..

636 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:06:06pm

re: #629 HoosierHoops

I can't wait to read somebody that says we need Ron Paul to clean up the GOP.. You know it's coming..
/Hi KT!

J.C. Watts. and a simple message. Lower taxes, reduce government.

637 transient  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:06:09pm

Jerusalem Post's analysis of the recent announcement to build more homes in the territories:

[B]efore the moratorium, Israel will announce the approval of hundreds of new apartments that - together with the 2,500 units already being build in West Bank settlements - will provide for what Netanyahu calls normal life.

It is obvious that Washington knew about these plans, and that Netanyahu didn't wake up Thursday night, a day after his top envoys met with US Mideast envoy George Mitchell in New York, and surprise everyone with this announcement. He reportedly briefed Mitchell on the idea during his visit two weeks ago to Europe.
...
[The Obama] administration misread the Israeli public, thinking that the settlements were enormously unpopular, and that the public would back the US president. The administration confused headlines and certain columns in Haaretz with Israeli public opinion, a public that saw the US demand as unreasonable and rallied around Netanyahu.

Secondly, it became clear with time that there had indeed been agreements with the Bush administration on where and how Israel could continue to build in the settlements, and that the Obama administration was simply tossing those out the window.
...
The fourth element that has led to a change in the US position was Saudi intransigence. Even as Washington was trying to get Israel to agree to a freeze, the Obama administration also tried to get the Arab world - especially Saudi Arabia - to ante up some significant confidence-building measures.

638 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:06:18pm

re: #630 DrNaughty

I'd prefer Ann Coulter...

A 6' blond is always a good choice...

What is it you like about Ann Coulter? Is it her defense of the white supremacist Council of Conservative Citizens? Her support for people who murder abortion doctors? Or maybe it's the way she called John Edwards "a faggot" in her CPAC speech a couple years ago?

639 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:07:37pm

re: #638 Charles

What is it you like about Ann Coulter? Is it her defense of the white supremacist Council of Conservative Citizens? Her support for people who murder abortion doctors? Or maybe it's the way she called John Edwards "a faggot" in her CPAC speech a couple years ago?

Her long legs and blond hair...

640 Big Steve  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:07:45pm

re: #638 Charles

What is it you like about Ann Coulter? Is it her defense of the white supremacist Council of Conservative Citizens? Her support for people who murder abortion doctors? Or maybe it's the way she called John Edwards "a faggot" in her CPAC speech a couple years ago?

or her arguments that "evolution has been proven wrong by settled science"

641 lostlakehiker  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:07:59pm

re: #24 Charles

Van Jones is incredibly respected among environmentalists. I know you hate him, but that's just a fact.

A man cannot be taken seriously as an environmentalist if he says that global warming is a grave and gathering danger, but won't accept nuclear power, won't accept solar power if it means putting transmission lines through desert wilderness, or won't accept wind power because it spoils the view and kills some birds.

Jones, if memory served, didn't like nuclear power because high tech jobs are disproportionately open only to those with high-tech education, and too few of the people he most cares about have such training.

Really! There will be plenty of room at the table for low-tech green jobs. Millions of houses need better insulation. All new residential and business construction could incorporate energy saving features that would more than pay for themselves over time-measures that make sense whether or not AGW is real-and the work that this involves isn't the sole realm of geeks.

642 Last Mohican  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:08:21pm

Can I ask a question? When Van Jones signed that letter about the 9/11 attacks, what did it say? I mean, not what the truthers later claimed that Jones endorsed. What did he actually knowingly sign?

643 claire  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:08:33pm

re: #595 Diego

I agree, but where would that scale go if there was no minimum wage?

I don't know, but they are trying to raise it where I live to like $12/hour, a "sustainable" wage, where the person could buy a house and raise a family on a job a teenager can do. (You can buy a house here for $90,000) Totally out-of-whack to what businesses can afford.

644 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:09:01pm

re: #642 Last Mohican

Can I ask a question? When Van Jones signed that letter about the 9/11 attacks, what did it say? I mean, not what the truthers later claimed that Jones endorsed. What did he actually knowingly sign?

We don't know. We do know that two of the people who signed it said it was very different from what appeared at the Truther website.

645 avanti  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:09:09pm

re: #627 Diego

Aye, it's Glen Beck..

I agree with poster that suggested George Soros should funnel some money Beck's way, he's a keeper.

646 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:09:09pm

re: #639 DrNaughty

I'd rather have an average woman with an honest mind, but saying that I find her repulsive for her body AND her mind..

647 debutaunt  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:09:48pm

re: #497 avanti

Again, speculation of a pessimistic outcome that only time will tell the outcome. My prediction is that the economy will continue to recover slowly, but be less of a issue next year.

What is the difference between his speculation and your prediction, other than the results?

648 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:09:48pm

As I was reading this (and avoiding folding socks) my mom sent me a photo of my grandfather in his prime at a Republican fund raiser back in the late '50s. He'd be shocked, I suspect, at what's happened, though not surprised. Certainly this is not his conservative movement.

What we're seeing on both sides is what has been going on in Europe (including England) for some time now: extremist parties using dissatisfaction with the existing parties to boost membership and then ultimately insinuate themselves into positions of authority. It's happened before, but the conservative (not in an ideological, but in a reflexive sort of way) party leadership was usually able to do a good job as gate keepers. Now the fringe groups take advantage of the possibility of getting good media coverage (which covers over their most dangerous aspects) and the apparent inability of the traditional party leaders to either come up with ideas or exercise quality control to get into the limelight and, unfortunately, to control the message of the parties themselves.

BNP, VB, the "Greens", and other such have been doing this for years, and with signal success. Obviously these twerps have been studying the playbook.

649 Racer X  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:09:58pm

re: #639 DrNaughty

Her long legs and blond hair...

Thats it?

Sheesh. I can think of thousands of other women I'd prefer over AC.

One.

650 Desert Dog  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:10:08pm

Have fun y'all. Actual reality is awaiting me.

651 jaunte  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:10:24pm

re: #643 claire

I don't know, but they are trying to raise it where I live to like $12/hour, a "sustainable" wage, where the person could buy a house and raise a family on a job a teenager can do. (You can buy a house here for $90,000) Totally out-of-whack to what businesses can afford.

I would imagine the step after that, if people remain unemployed, would be to mandate hiring of "trainees."

652 avanti  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:10:28pm

re: #639 DrNaughty

Her long legs and blond hair...

Too damn skinny, buy the gal a cheeseburger.

653 shiplord kirel  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:10:29pm

re: #601 Charles

If you post another link to the hate site rense.com you're going to lose your account.


This detestable quack and troofer is one of the best examples of the crazy right and the crazy left meeting at the back. Long known as an especially whacked-out cultural lefty, Rense has recently attracted a large audience among Ron Paulians and right-wing anti-government extremists.
Jeff Rense at Wikipedia

Two recurring themes on the Rense show are a general mistrust of the establishment (particularly the right wing), and a range of theories about who was behind attacks on the New York World Trade Center on September 11, 2001. Regular guests include conspiracy theorists, geopolitical experts [sic], ufologists, and have included congresswoman Cynthia McKinney, Jordan Maxwell, and Devvy Kidd. One of Rense's favourite guests is paranormal expert Brad Steiger, who is also a personal friend of Rense. Rense has also interviewed controversial South African journalist Jani Allan and ex-Zimbabwean Jan Lamprecht, who became a regular commentator.
654 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:10:34pm

re: #649 Racer X

Thats it?

Sheesh. I can think of thousands of other women I'd prefer over AC.

One.

Hehe.. but she's not in the political arena.

655 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:10:40pm

re: #638 Charles

What is it you like about Ann Coulter? Is it her defense of the white supremacist Council of Conservative Citizens? Her support for people who murder abortion doctors? Or maybe it's the way she called John Edwards "a faggot" in her CPAC speech a couple years ago?

"I'm not defending Ann Coulter."

656 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:11:20pm

re: #638 Charles

In any event, I prefer women who have a bit more flesh on the bone. And tact.

657 Racer X  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:11:31pm

re: #654 DrNaughty

Hehe.. but she's not in the political arena.

Dude - she has beer!

658 debutaunt  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:11:55pm

re: #500 Diego

Minimum wage info: [Link: www.dol.gov...]

I don't believe you have considered the unintended consequences of the minimum wage.

659 Big Steve  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:11:55pm

I watched Howard Dean on one of the Sunday talking head shows while I at the gym this morning. He commented that on the campaign trail one often gets clipboards shoved toward you to sign this or that. He comment was that Van Jones learned the hard way that one should avoid signing these. I thought that fairly well summed up this whole tempest...a momentary ill-advised scribble of one's name, years ago, that he probably never thought about again for a moment. In my opinion it hardly defines the man.

660 avanti  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:11:58pm

re: #647 debutaunt

What is the difference between his speculation and your prediction, other than the results?

Absolutely nothing, my prediction is pure speculation too, I'm just sharing.

661 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:12:08pm

re: #643 claire

I don't know, but they are trying to raise it where I live to like $12/hour, a "sustainable" wage, where the person could buy a house and raise a family on a job a teenager can do. (You can buy a house here for $90,000) Totally out-of-whack to what businesses can afford.

I agree, but then that is state and not federal and everyone bitches that states should be able to do whatever they want (I don't completely agree).

662 sagehen  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:12:21pm

re: #586 Salamantis

Here's an example of green jobs in my county:

The county had converyor belts installed that carry collected garbage fom the trucks to the bins, and hired minimum wage workers to pick it over for recyclables, which are then sold.

The program runs more than a hunded thou in the red each year, and employs about two dozen workers.


So for $4-5k per person (less than food stamps would be, or any other kind of assistance that they'd need if they had no jobs), you're extending the useful life of whatever dump site the recyclables would have gone to if they weren't recycled (is that counted in the cost/benefit figures?) and saving environment from the effects of manufacturing whatever would have had to be created if recycled products weren't going back into the marketplace (is that counted in the figures?).

And the workers are getting, besides an income, a resume line that will be useful to them when better jobs come available that they'd like to apply for.

Sounds worthwhile to me.

663 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:12:26pm

re: #657 Racer X

Dude - she has beer!

We all know that if it wasn't for beer. and the need for it. that the Pilgrims would have proceeded onto Virginia instead of landing at Plymouth Rock...

664 Salamantis  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:12:31pm

re: #639 DrNaughty

Her long legs and blond hair...

I don't care HOW sexually attractive someone might be to me; if they espouse views as odious as hers, I wouldn't wanna ball 'em; I'd be too scared that they might reproduce...and raise the kids themselves...

665 Last Mohican  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:12:59pm

re: #644 Charles

We don't know. We do know that two of the people who signed it said it was very different from what appeared at the Truther website.

Thanks. I didn't know if this had been figured out. It would have been an important part of an intelligent discussion of Jones' views on 9/11. But I suppose that intelligent discussion probably won't happen now.

666 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:13:17pm

re: #641 lostlakehiker

A man cannot be taken seriously as an environmentalist if he says that global warming is a grave and gathering danger, but won't accept nuclear power, won't accept solar power if it means putting transmission lines through desert wilderness, or won't accept wind power because it spoils the view and kills some birds.

Personally, I agree with you there. But I was simply pointing out that Van Jones is very well respected among environmentalists, because ... well, he is. It's a fact.

667 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:13:21pm

re: #644 Charles

We don't know. We do know that two of the people who signed it said it was very different from what appeared at the Truther website.

You have to admit, seeing a politician get nabbed by a "bait and switch" routine is rather ironic.

668 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:14:30pm

re: #658 debutaunt

I don't believe you have considered the unintended consequences of the minimum wage.

I believe they're greatly outweighed by the consequence of NOT having a minimum wage. I mean really, it's not like the minimum wage is some great boon, it's just a bottom line for people who don't have anything else.

669 KingKenrod  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:14:35pm

re: #642 Last Mohican

Can I ask a question? When Van Jones signed that letter about the 9/11 attacks, what did it say? I mean, not what the truthers later claimed that Jones endorsed. What did he actually knowingly sign?

We don't know what Van Jones was told before agreeing to sign his name. But we do know he name appeared on the document on the internet with a clearly spelled-out radical truther agenda for 5 years. It was originally released to the public on Oct 29 2004 and has not changed.

670 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:14:39pm

re: #664 Salamantis

I don't care HOW sexually attractive someone might be to me; if they espouse views as odious as hers, I wouldn't wanna ball 'em; I'd be too scared that they might reproduce...and raise the kids themselves...

What was Bill Clinton thinking then?

671 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:15:17pm

re: #670 DrNaughty

He's from Arkansas... ;)

672 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:15:29pm

re: #670 DrNaughty

What was Bill Clinton thinking then?

As you well know, the male brain is not localized in one region, and, at times, subsidiary ganglia can, in fact, dominate the others.

673 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:15:47pm

re: #666 Charles

Personally, I agree with you there. But I was simply pointing out that Van Jones is very well respected among environmentalists, because ... well, he is. It's a fact.

That just subtantiates my belief that the Environmental Movement is where the communists and leftist fled to after the end of the Cold War...

674 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:16:23pm

re: #672 Lucius Septimius

Actually, the brain is in the one place. It's all about blood flow ;)

675 Athos  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:16:52pm

re: #622 Killgore Trout

Somebody as vile as R. McCain should be treated with scorn from anyone looking to clean up the conservative side of the isle. Why would anyone "appreciate" him? Would you say the same thing about Pat Buchanan?

As for the latter, absolutely not - as to the former, I'm in the process of educating myself...based on what I've seen thus far - the answer is the same.

Is it a concern that Henke 'appreciates' the writing of McCain - yes. Does it completely invalidate Henke's ideas and in particular his pressure on the RNC to distance itself from World Nutters Daily or the need to clean the GOP out like was done in the 60's? Not based on what I seen from Henke thus far. Now, if he goes further than 'appreciates' - that would change the equation considerably.

676 winnd54  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:17:14pm

I would like to ask Diego what he thinks the minimum wage should be set at.

677 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:17:33pm

re: #673 DrNaughty

That just subtantiates my belief that the Environmental Movement is where the communists and leftist fled to after the end of the Cold War...

I'm sorry, I cannot agree with that at all. There are many many good people involved in environmentalism, and many Republicans and conservatives too.

678 charlesincharge  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:17:54pm

re: #422 Desert Dog

But, what if Superman was President? That would be cool!

Our President is Superman! Don't you read the newspapers?
//

679 JohnH  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:18:07pm

re: #666 Charles

Personally, I agree with you there. But I was simply pointing out that Van Jones is very well respected among environmentalists, because ... well, he is. It's a fact.

Which only serves to point out that there is a huge problem with environmentalists.

680 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:18:54pm

re: #677 Charles

I'm sorry, I cannot agree with that at all. There are many many good people involved in environmentalism, and many Republicans and conservatives too.

I'm certain the farmers that are going bankrupt in the central valley of California beause they can't irrigate their land agree with you

681 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:19:04pm

re: #676 winnd54

I honestly have no opinion. I'm sure there is a way to judge, but as it's federal and cost of living varies by town/city/state, there is no clean answer.

682 Big Steve  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:19:20pm

I heard Newt Gingrich on the TV supporting Obama's address to the school kids this week. Nice to hear one Republican be sane on this.

683 yochanan  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:20:14pm

re: #173 Oh no...Sand People!

zombie proof of his left wing anti semitism was enough for me all the rest was icing on the anti semitic cake.

684 Chip Designer  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:20:26pm

re: #668 Diego

The minimum wage just makes it illegal to hire someone who is not worth the minimum wage.

It has a disproportionate impact on the young and those who are not too smart.

685 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:21:01pm

re: #684 Chip Designer

You've lost me here. Explain?

686 Digital Display  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:21:13pm

re: #677 Charles

I'm sorry, I cannot agree with that at all. There are many many good people involved in environmentalism, and many Republicans and conservatives too.

Exactly...It's not just the left that wants clean air and water for future generations...I hope a hundred years from now Lake Michigan won't catch on fire cause somebody threw a match into it...
When did caring for our world become a bad thing?

687 Salamantis  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:21:44pm

re: #679 JohnH

Which only serves to point out that there is a huge problem with environmentalists.

Environmentalists (and I consider myself one) are generally good people, but many of them do have a distressing tendency to only care about one's ecological stance, to the point where they don't give a shit if your pulp is Communist Red or Fascist Brown, so long as your rind is Green.

688 Coracle  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:21:51pm

re: #680 DrNaughty

Environmentalism should be a core conservative value. It's bad business sense and hurts the long term bottom line to destroy ecosystems, render fisheries barren, erase rainforests, poison water tables. It is somewhat mystifying how few conservatives actually see this.

689 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:21:53pm

re: #686 HoosierHoops

Exactly...It's not just the left that wants clean air and water for future generations...I hope a hundred years from now Lake Michigan won't catch on fire cause somebody threw a match into it...
When did caring for our world become a bad thing?

Cap and Trade leglisation...

690 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:22:37pm

re: #686 HoosierHoops

Exactly...It's not just the left that wants clean air and water for future generations...I hope a hundred years from now Lake Michigan won't catch on fire cause somebody threw a match into it...
When did caring for our world become a bad thing?

This is a cause that the GOP has almost totally abandoned to the left, and it's one big reason why the GOP is in such a shambles right now.

691 debutaunt  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:22:55pm

re: #551 Diego

That's not proof. It's a study from 1996 showing what could happen if the minimum wage was increased. Show that it came true and you'll have some proof.

What should the minimum wage be?

692 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:23:08pm

re: #662 sagehen

So for $4-5k per person (less than food stamps would be, or any other kind of assistance that they'd need if they had no jobs), you're extending the useful life of whatever dump site the recyclables would have gone to if they weren't recycled (is that counted in the cost/benefit figures?) and saving environment from the effects of manufacturing whatever would have had to be created if recycled products weren't going back into the marketplace (is that counted in the figures?).

And the workers are getting, besides an income, a resume line that will be useful to them when better jobs come available that they'd like to apply for.

Wanna make a bet that some of the "Garbage Pickers" are still receiving food stamps and other subsidies?

693 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:23:18pm

re: #690 Charles

This is a cause that the GOP has almost totally abandoned to the left, and it's one big reason why the GOP is in such a shambles right now.

Gold Star

694 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:23:20pm

re: #688 Coracle

Environmentalism should be a core conservative value. It's bad business sense and hurts the long term bottom line to destroy ecosystems, render fisheries barren, erase rainforests, poison water tables. It is somewhat mystifying how few conservatives actually see this.

We all want clean water and fresh air. and a lanscape this is not an industrial dump.

But does this mean we must support the Kyoto treaty ?

695 Hanoch  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:23:35pm

re: #516 avanti

Two points:

1. The so-called "peace talks" have been going on for 16 years since Oslo. Given everything that has happened in the interim, no sane person seriously believes the Arabs are interested in peace, let alone the notion that a peace agreement is right around the corner. Whatever is going to happen in the next few weeks is just more of the same.

2. Even if you were assume that "this time it is different", the Jewish settlements should not pose a barrier to peace for the Arabs. Why is it that people assume that millions of Arabs may live in Israel, but any territory ultimately ceded to the Arabs must be Judenrein?

696 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:24:09pm

re: #691 debutaunt

What should the minimum wage be?

abolished...

697 Coracle  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:24:19pm

re: #694 DrNaughty

We all want clean water and fresh air. and a lanscape this is not an industrial dump.

But does this mean we must support the Kyoto treaty ?

We should be leaders in making treaties like Kyoto unnecessary.

698 Pianobuff  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:24:50pm

re: #685 Diego

You've lost me here. Explain?

I don't have the studies handy so you'll have to take my word for it (or not) or maybe someone else here has the info.

When minimum wage was passed and when rates go up, there is a corresponding rise in the unemployment rate for certain groups: the young, the less educated, and sadly minorities. Business owners make do with less. Instead of having 5 open positions, maybe there are only 4, etc.

Great intentions don't necessarily always produce great results.

699 Chip Designer  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:25:58pm

re: #685 Diego

For the most part, people are paid what they are worth.

This may be easier seen in the extreme. Suppose that in order to decrease teen age poverty, we raised the minimum wage for teenagers to $100/hour.

Would that fix teenage poverty, or would that result in 99% unemployment for teenagers?

The answer is obvious. Most teenagers are not worth $100 / hour.

One can construct a curve. At $20 / hour, we may get 75% unemployment. At the current $7.50(?) / hour, we get the current 25% unemployment.

700 mattm  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:26:11pm

Clean-up under the Bus.

701 Last Mohican  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:26:23pm

re: #690 Charles

This is a cause that the GOP has almost totally abandoned to the left, and it's one big reason why the GOP is in such a shambles right now.

John McCain supported a number of environmentalist causes. Of course, he was just a RINO, and we're better off without him.

/bitterness

702 sagehen  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:27:03pm

re: #676 winnd54

I would like to ask Diego what he thinks the minimum wage should be set at.

I'm not Diego, but in my view...

A full-time minimum-wage job should pay enough to put a single parent with one child above the poverty line.

703 yochanan  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:27:41pm

re: #695 Hanoch

there will not be peace unless one side or the other wins
islam will not willing accept a dhimmi state as equals. all the propaganda will not change that at all.

704 Chip Designer  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:28:23pm

re: #702 sagehen

And if they are not worth it, we should make it illegal for that person to hold a job?

705 Hanoch  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:28:36pm

re: #523 Diego

Prove it? This is supply and demand. When you raise the price of something (in this case, the price of labor), there is less demand for it. Are you seriously attempting to challenge the entire foundation of economics?

706 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:28:48pm

re: #673 DrNaughty

That just subtantiates my belief that the Environmental Movement is where the communists and leftist fled to after the end of the Cold War...

That and apologetics for radical Islam. It's funny, but I recall that back in the original "Enemies List" compiled by P.J. O'Rourke there was speculation that with the fall of the Soviet Union, Arab terrorists would be the next cause celebre of the left. Remarkably prescient, I'd say.

707 Salamantis  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:29:15pm

re: #702 sagehen

I'm not Diego, but in my view...

A full-time minimum-wage job should pay enough to put a single parent with one child above the poverty line.

How do you pay someone enough so that they can hire someone else for no less than that to take care of their kid while they're at work, and still pay for food, clothing, housing and medical?

708 Mr Pancakes  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:30:06pm

re: #702 sagehen

I'm not Diego, but in my view...

A full-time minimum-wage job should pay enough to put a single parent with one child above the poverty line.

Yea but... you don't want to put a stranglehold on small business... nor take away incentive to strive to do better.

709 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:30:19pm

re: #698 Pianobuff

No, but the trade-off is in a working wage.

If I have a burger joint I have to have so many employees for the hours I'm open. I can't fire people when the wage goes up 25c and so maybe I raise my fries 10c. It's called 'inflation' and you can't escape it even if you never raise the wage. It's just a part of doing business.

Otherwise, you hire whomever you can get for as little as you're willing to pay and you don't give a damn if they can afford to live on it or not.

Currently, you have people working 2 or 3 minimum wage jobs and barely surviving. Add to this tat they have no health care and guess who is picking up that tab? You are.

Is it not better to give them a good working wage, as well as affordable health care they can pay for out of that wage without going broke, and catching the savings off the back end?

710 calcajun  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:30:25pm

re: #549 SasquatchOnSteroids

The horror. The horror.-- Conrad

Why is the rum gone. --Sparrow

711 Last Mohican  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:30:25pm

Here's my contribution to the "what does Van Jones believe about environmentalism?" question.

It's a complete recording of a radio interview that Jones and the president of the Institute of Noetic Sciences did together on Joan Kenley's radio program. Kenley's a little hard to take. She's like a combination of Stuart Smalley, Mr. Rogers, and Phoebe from Friends.

712 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:31:11pm

re: #702 sagehen

I'm not Diego, but in my view...

A full-time minimum-wage job should pay enough to put a single parent with one child above the poverty line.

So, you think it's fair to put someone just above the poverty level? Poverty level in Mississippi? or the Poverty level in NYC?

Question, please do not take this as argumentative...

Have you ever had an employee? Have you ever had to make a payroll?

713 Last Mohican  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:31:42pm

re: #705 Hanoch

Are you seriously attempting to challenge the entire foundation of economics?

I'll step in here and endorse that statement. The entire foundation of economics is wrong.

714 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:31:49pm

re: #688 Coracle

Environmentalism should be a core conservative value. It's bad business sense and hurts the long term bottom line to destroy ecosystems, render fisheries barren, erase rainforests, poison water tables. It is somewhat mystifying how few conservatives actually see this.

It is, imho. We just don't want to make an industry out of it

Take the Boy Scouts, for instance. Very deep in conservative and environmenatl values for decades

715 jayzee  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:33:06pm

re: #694 DrNaughty

This is why important issues shouldn't be politicized (but we all know better)...
That's why, held in high regard or not, putting a self proclaimed communist in charge of green jobs was really very stupid and self defeating.

716 Last Mohican  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:33:37pm

re: #713 Last Mohican

The entire foundation of economics is wrong.

Wait, I'm sorry, that's not right. I retract that statement.

717 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:34:24pm

re: #712 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

So, you think it's fair to put someone just above the poverty level? Poverty level in Mississippi? or the Poverty level in NYC?

Question, please do not take this as argumentative...

Have you ever had an employee? Have you ever had to make a payroll?


I have , several times, After paying my employees I would often go without

Without a paycheck that week(s) for myself

Without a PAID vacation or persoanl day

Without holidays off ,, PAID!

Without overtime

718 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:34:46pm

re: #714 sattv4u2

It is, imho. We just don't want to make an industry out of it

Take the Boy Scouts, for instance. Very deep in conservative and environmenatl values for decades

Absolutely -- a genuine conservative would care deeply for preservation of the environment. It's just that they would make it a matter of personal responsibility and character, not administrative fiat. It's the difference between picking up a piece of trash on the street and seeing a piece of trash and lobbying congress to pass stricter anti-littering laws.

And, in any event, it's hard to see why we should trust government to be the ones to clean up the environment, given their environmental record.

719 yael  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:34:55pm

What's more mystifying to me is how quickly some people working for better environmental progress both here and abroad have forgotten the abysmal record of the former Soviet Union and Eastern Bloc in that area. Think of the destruction of the Aral Sea for example. Capitalism didn't "cause" this and communism for sure will not cure it. His seeming knee-jerk distrust of capitalism as a system was what bothered me the most about Van Jones. Forget this other silly stuff.

720 Big Steve  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:35:14pm

re: #690 Charles

This is a cause that the GOP has almost totally abandoned to the left, and it's one big reason why the GOP is in such a shambles right now.

Damn straight...When did the GOP abandon the environmental high ground to the Democrats. Look at the major environmental legistation and who signed them.

Clean Air Act, Endangered Species Act, OSHA, RCRA. Safe Drinking Water Act, Toxic Control Substances (TSCA) - Nixon

CERCLA (Superfund), EPCRA (right to know), SARA - Reagan

721 Coracle  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:35:20pm

re: #714 sattv4u2

It is, imho. We just don't want to make an industry out of it

Take the Boy Scouts, for instance. Very deep in conservative and environmenatl values for decades

That's a mistake, IMO. The boy scouts aren't going to solve the big problems.

722 winnd54  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:35:31pm

THE 2009 HHS POVERTY GUIDELINES

The 2009 Poverty Guidelines for the
48 Contiguous States and the District of Columbia Persons in family Poverty guideline
1 $10,830
2 14,570
3 18,310
4 22,050
5 25,790
6 29,530
7 33,270
8 37,010
For families with more than 8 persons, add $3,740 for each additional person.

So about 7.20 an hour.

723 Gus  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:36:22pm

re: #680 DrNaughty

I'm certain the farmers that are going bankrupt in the central valley of California beause they can't irrigate their land agree with you

As a result of the Endangered Species Act signed into law by Richard M. Nixon (R) in 1973.

Amendments were added with the first considering economic impacts in 1978 and one that reversed that in 1982:

1978 - Critical habitat was required to be designated concurrently with listing a species, when prudent, and economic and other impacts of designation were required to be considered in deciding on boundaries [section 4].

1982 - Determinations of the status of species were required to be made solely on the basis of biological and trade information, without consideration of possible economic or other effects [section 4].

Take note of the years of these amendments and consider who signed them into law.

724 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:36:35pm

re: #721 Coracle

That's a mistake, IMO. The boy scouts aren't going to solve the big problems.

Short sighted. Boy scouts GROW UP.. Look at many business leadrs today. Scouting backgrounds

725 sagehen  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:36:35pm

re: #707 Salamantis

How do you pay someone enough so that they can hire someone else for no less than that to take care of their kid while they're at work, and still pay for food, clothing, housing and medical?


If they're above the poverty-line, by definition they have enough for necessities.

727 MandyManners  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:37:16pm

re: #719 yael

What's more mystifying to me is how quickly some people working for better environmental progress both here and abroad have forgotten the abysmal record of the former Soviet Union and Eastern Bloc in that area. Think of the destruction of the Aral Sea for example. Capitalism didn't "cause" this and communism for sure will not cure it. His seeming knee-jerk distrust of capitalism as a system was what bothered me the most about Van Jones. Forget this other silly stuff.

Don't forget China.

728 Coracle  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:37:21pm

re: #724 sattv4u2

Short sighted. Boy scouts GROW UP.. Look at many business leadrs today. Scouting backgrounds

Which is why we see such a strong environmental ethic in todays' major industries?

729 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:37:22pm

This just in !

The private business sector has an endless supply of capital !

Get yours today !

730 cybermonk  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:37:51pm

re: #33 SixDegrees

the truffe allegations were based on his signing the troofer document, no basesless there, he did sign it, he never denied signing it

731 Irish Rose  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:38:11pm

Good evening, lizards.

732 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:38:21pm

re: #722 winnd54

Gosh, Jackson Mississippi federal poverty level is the same as Manhattan? San Diego? Seattle? Really?

Huh. That doesn't make sense to me.

733 yochanan  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:38:28pm

free societies have civil org. that keep an eye on thing communist countries never did. so that the worst polution was in communist countries

734 Pianobuff  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:38:42pm

re: #709 Diego

No, but the trade-off is in a working wage.

If I have a burger joint I have to have so many employees for the hours I'm open. I can't fire people when the wage goes up 25c and so maybe I raise my fries 10c. It's called 'inflation' and you can't escape it even if you never raise the wage. It's just a part of doing business.

Otherwise, you hire whomever you can get for as little as you're willing to pay and you don't give a damn if they can afford to live on it or not.

Currently, you have people working 2 or 3 minimum wage jobs and barely surviving. Add to this tat they have no health care and guess who is picking up that tab? You are.

Is it not better to give them a good working wage, as well as affordable health care they can pay for out of that wage without going broke, and catching the savings off the back end?

The business owner is in the best position of knowing how this will affect their books. They may downsize, raise prices (as you point out, but there business may suffer as a result), put in more hours of his/her own time to make up the difference. There are even illegal strategies which are adopted such as paying people under the table, etc. Black market economies generally arise in such situations.

Your intentions are honorable, believe me they are. It's just that the results don't align with the intentions, and too often one can get the opposite of what one intended.

735 Salamantis  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:38:42pm

re: #725 sagehen

If they're above the poverty-line, by definition they have enough for necessities.

You miss my point. If you have to pay someone no less than as much as you make to take care of your kid so you can work, you will be working for nothing.

736 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:38:56pm

re: #720 Big Steve

Damn straight...When did the GOP abandon the environmental high ground to the Democrats. Look at the major environmental legistation and who signed them.

Clean Air Act, Endangered Species Act, OSHA, RCRA. Safe Drinking Water Act, Toxic Control Substances (TSCA) - Nixon

CERCLA (Superfund), EPCRA (right to know), SARA - Reagan

In answer to the original question, it was when the left reinvented environmental crisis in cosmic dimensions. The problems that we were responding to in the '70s and early '80s were defined in terms of pollution and consumption issues. Those were concrete problems that could be dealt with without resorting to global treaties and apocalyptic rhetoric.

Now concrete issues have been sidelined in favor of rhetoric that makes the problem far too vast for individual citizens to deal with; only the massive expansion of a bureaucratic state structure can address the issue, if at all.

737 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:38:58pm

re: #724 sattv4u2

Short sighted. Boy scouts GROW UP.. Look at many business leadrs today. Scouting backgrounds

I was a Life Scout and went to the World Jamboree in Japan in 1971. Probably the biggest event of my adolecence. I didn't make Eagle because I chose to go into the Air Force when I was 17...

The values I learned in scouting and the experiences I had camping and the outdoor experiences I've never forgotten. I support the Boy Scouts each year and help the kids today have the same experiences I had...

738 winnd54  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:39:40pm

re: #732 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Hey, I didn't make this up!
[Link: aspe.hhs.gov...]

739 MandyManners  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:39:43pm

re: #729 SasquatchOnSteroids

This just in !

The private business sector has an endless supply of capital !

Get yours today !

Gimme' mine!

Youtube Video
740 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:40:23pm

re: #728 Coracle

Which is why we see such a strong environmental ethic in todays' major industries?

Lets do some math

How many companies currently operate within the USA that can adversly affect the environemnet

How many of those companies (percentage wise) have rum afould of laws and EPA standards

741 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:40:36pm

re: #737 DrNaughty

Giving back ding!

742 shiplord kirel  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:41:04pm

I've asserted for a long time that belief in Rense/Alex Jones type conspiracy theories is much more widespread than many realize.

Popular Mechanics found this out the hard way when they did their now famous de-bunking of trooferism in 2005. They eventually followed this up with an excellent piece on the Conspiracy Industry.

On February 7, 2005, I became a member of the Bush/Halliburton/Zionist/CIA/New World Order/ Illuminati conspiracy for global domination. It was on that day the March 2005 issue of Popular Mechanics, with its cover story debunking 9/11 conspiracy theories, hit newsstands. Within hours, the online community of 9/11 conspiracy buffs—which calls itself the “9/11 Truth Movement”—was aflame with wild fantasies about me and my staff, the magazine I edit, and the article we had published.

The Web site [Link: www.911research.wtc7.net,...] an organization that claims that questioning the “official” story of 9/11 is “an act of responsible citizenship,” fired one of the first salvos: “Popular Mechanics Attacks Its 9/11 LIES Straw Man,” read the headline of a piece by a leading conspiracy theorist named Jim Hoffman.

We had begun our plunge down the rabbit hole. Within hours, a post on [Link: www.portland.indymedia.org,...] which claims to be dedicated to “radical, accurate, and passionate tellings of truth,” called me “James Meigs the Coward and Traitor.” Not long afterward, another prominent conspiracy theorist produced an analysis that concluded that Popular Mechanics is a CIA front organization. Invective and threats soon clogged the comments section of our Web site and poured in by e-mail.

Glenn Beck, of course, is not a troofer but his style of thinking and presentation, his use of established conspiracy memes, and his references to established conspiracy kooks like the John Birch Society place him solidly within the conspiracy culture. This seems likely to be part of an overall strategy by Fox News to muscle in on a market that has been historically under-exploited by big media. "Judge" Napolitano's effort to legitimize Alex Jones could be seen in the same context.

743 debutaunt  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:41:26pm

re: #702 sagehen

I'm not Diego, but in my view...

A full-time minimum-wage job should pay enough to put a single parent with one child above the poverty line.

Can you imagine the horror of trying to enforce that?

744 Mr Pancakes  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:41:38pm

re: #740 sattv4u2

rum afould

Hey... that's the name of my new band!

745 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:42:02pm

re: #734 Pianobuff

Your intentions are honorable, believe me they are. It's just that the results don't align with the intentions, and too often one can get the opposite of what one intended.

Indeed, not the alternate is trusting business owners to do the right think on their own and history has proven that trust to be misplaced. After all, there would be no minimum wage if that was the case.

746 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:42:32pm

/Indeed, but...

747 Chip Designer  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:42:44pm

Jobs have not gone overseas strictly due to low wages.

Our property taxes and IRS depreciation law punish anyone who builds a high-tech factory in the United States. That is a major reason why the electronics industry has declined in the US.

748 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:43:04pm

re: #744 Mr Pancakes

Hey... that's the name of my new band!

damn keyboard!

749 claire  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:43:14pm

re: #634 avanti
Entrepeneurs truly are an underappreciated segment of this country!
(But we are all evil richies, who rake up the bucks off the backs of the downtrodden...)

It takes about a hundred times the effort, time, money, blood, sweat and tears to be an employer than to be an employee, and that's a fact.


re: #721 Coracle

That's a mistake, IMO. The boy scouts aren't going to solve the big problems.

They will when they grow up!

750 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:43:32pm

re: #702 sagehen

I'm not Diego, but in my view...

A full-time minimum-wage job should pay enough to put a single parent with one child above the poverty line.

So what we're really arguing about is a guaranteed standard of living.

751 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:43:37pm

/thing...


(feck my typing :P)

752 sagehen  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:43:53pm

re: #712 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

So, you think it's fair to put someone just above the poverty level? Poverty level in Mississippi? or the Poverty level in NYC?

Question, please do not take this as argumentative...

Have you ever had an employee? Have you ever had to make a payroll?

Minimum wage varies from state to state, as does the officially declared poverty line.

I have had employees, and had to make payroll. It's been my experience that if a minimum-wage employee wasn't bringing enough value to the company to be worth it, then the work they were doing didn't really need to be done at all.

753 Digital Display  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:44:13pm

re: #680 DrNaughty

I'm certain the farmers that are going bankrupt in the central valley of California beause they can't irrigate their land agree with you


I'm going to give you a break here...Central Valley economics are so much more complex than affordable water...They are converting to gray water irrigation and more ecological growing methods...It's not for lack of water.
I dare you to drive a mile in any direction and not end up in a Canal under water in Central Valley...Bankrupt farmers? Look in your Kitchen Cabinet.. There are millionaires behind every can of Veggies you cook...
***
Poor poor pitiful me
poor poor pitiful me
I can get water
but it ain't free
poor poor pitiful me
***

754 calcajun  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:44:28pm

re: #719 yael

It's a lesson when political idealism meets scientific reality. Castro did the same thing in Cuba, thinking coffee would be a better cash crop than sugar-- ignoring the fact the Cuban soil won't produce good coffee.

Also, don't forget Stalin's White Canal-- another Soviet engineering winner.

755 Lucius Septimius  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:44:52pm

Remember how government thinks:

Big business and Big labor = good

Small businesses = bad

If you've ever been involved with running a small business, you'll understand.

756 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:45:05pm

re: #749 claire

They will when they grow up!

gmta (#724)

That was the pointof my mentioning the scouts

757 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:45:33pm

re: #747 Chip Designer

Jobs have not gone overseas strictly due to low wages.

Our property taxes and IRS depreciation law punish anyone who builds a high-tech factory in the United States. That is a major reason why the electronics industry has declined in the US.

You can't blame the minimum wage for that. I blame greed. There are a million stories of people laid off and their job going overseas when the company was making great sales and profits and the employees were getting a good wage for the work they did.

758 Hanoch  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:45:40pm

re: #709 Diego

Pianobuff is right.

Diego, if you are interested in these issues, I'd highly recommend Thomas Sowell's book Basic Economics. It is very well written and worth the read.

759 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:45:58pm

re: #755 Lucius Septimius

Remember how government thinks:

Big business and Big labor = good

Small businesses = bad

If you've ever been involved with running a small business, you'll understand.

All one has to do is who gets bailed out and who goes to bankrupsy court...

760 Coracle  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:46:24pm

re: #740 sattv4u2

Lets do some math

How many companies currently operate within the USA that can adversly affect the environemnet

How many of those companies (percentage wise) have rum afould of laws and EPA standards

Is this a quiz or a game? You have the numbers and you want to know if I know them? Or you don't and you're fishing for something?

Virtually every company from x-thousand worker industrial plants to single person LLCs can affect the environment positively or negatively. And "running afoul of laws" is not the same thing as being environmentally responsible, and a far, far cry from being leaders in caring for the environmental bottom line.

761 Pianobuff  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:46:31pm

re: #758 Hanoch

Pianobuff is right.

Diego, if you are interested in these issues, I'd highly recommend Thomas Sowell's book Basic Economics. It is very well written and worth the read.

I believe Friedman covers this in Free to Choose as well.

762 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:46:55pm

re: #742 shiplord kirel

I've asserted for a long time that belief in Rense/Alex Jones type conspiracy theories is much more widespread than many realize.

Popular Mechanics found this out the hard way when they did their now famous de-bunking of trooferism in 2005. They eventually followed this up with an excellent piece on the Conspiracy Industry.

Glenn Beck, of course, is not a troofer but his style of thinking and presentation, his use of established conspiracy memes, and his references to established conspiracy kooks like the John Birch Society place him solidly within the conspiracy culture. This seems likely to be part of an overall strategy by Fox News to muscle in on a market that has been historically under-exploited by big media. "Judge" Napolitano's effort to legitimize Alex Jones could be seen in the same context.

The Birchers and Illuminati/NWO types are making a huge comeback on the right wing, and yes -- a lot of it is due to Fox News and Glenn Beck especially.

His show on the Rockefeller Building was probably the single craziest show that's ever been on a major network, by far. It was disturbing.

763 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:47:22pm

re: #758 Hanoch

I'm not overly, but I appreciate a good discussion :)

764 Coracle  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:47:53pm

re: #749 claire

They will when they grow up!

Where are all the former Boy Scout conservative environmental leaders today?

765 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:48:43pm

re: #764 Coracle

They will when they grow up!

Where are all the former Boy Scout conservative environmental leaders today?

You're confusing people who care about the environment and those in the "Environmental Movement".

766 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:48:56pm

re: #764 Coracle

They will when they grow up!

Where are all the former Boy Scout conservative environmental leaders today?

Airport stalls?


//

767 Mr Pancakes  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:49:00pm

re: #747 Chip Designer

Whatever the reason ... it's not like we could "tweak it" and bring it all back... ain't gunna happen.

We consume... and we want to consume that new Blue-Ray disc player with the "Kung-Fu grip" technology for $45 not $400.

768 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:49:29pm

re: #767 Mr Pancakes

Whatever the reason ... it's not like we could "tweak it" and bring it all back... ain't gunna happen.

We consume... and we want to consume that new Blue-Ray disc player with the "Kung-Fu grip" technology for $45 not $400.

Fools and their money are soon parted.

769 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:49:55pm

re: #764 Coracle

They will when they grow up!

Where are all the former Boy Scout conservative environmental leaders today?

[Link: www.macscouter.com...]

770 Coracle  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:50:14pm

re: #765 DrNaughty

You're confusing people who care about the environment and those in the "Environmental Movement".

That title is meaningless. Where are the conservative environmental leaders? They could be defining what the "Envronmental Movement" is.

771 calcajun  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:50:18pm

re: #727 MandyManners

Don't forget China.

Ah, yes. I can see the commercials--

Billy Mays here comrades for the Back-Yard Bessemer! You now can smelt your own steel as to further the glorious revolution of our beloved Chairman. You do it all, from coke to high-grade ingots in five easy steps. But wait, if you act right now, we'll throw in the puddling tools and fire-proof gloves all for the low price of $19.99.

So what it if that's two years' wages--imagine the pride you'll take knowing that steel you made is part of our glorious ICBMs which we will hurl at the capitalist-pig-dogs across the sea...

772 Pianobuff  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:50:25pm

re: #758 Hanoch

Pianobuff is right.

Diego, if you are interested in these issues, I'd highly recommend Thomas Sowell's book Basic Economics. It is very well written and worth the read.

I watched some OLD Sowell videos the other day. Man, I can't believe the styles back then. Trippy. Makes me want to get out some of my old picture albums and get freaky.

773 Chip Designer  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:51:15pm

re: #757 Diego

I have known many of the CEOs who moved factories overseas. I don't think that greed is the answer, though it is an easy accusation to make.

We are in a global economy. You have to be cost competitive to compete. And if you are not, then you will go out of business.

If we punish those who build factories here in America, they the factories will be build elsewhere.

We saw this in the 70s, when business fled hi-tax states and relocated to low-tax states.

Now we see business fleeing high-tax countries and relocating to low-tax countries.

Hopefully, one day our government will learn that it has to compete with other governments to attract and keep jobs.

774 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:51:19pm

re: #770 Coracle

That title is meaningless. Where are the conservative environmental leaders? They could be defining what the "Envronmental Movement" is.

Why is it that every time I read or hear about an "Environmentalist". that they tend to be leftist democrats... ?

775 calcajun  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:51:42pm

re: #762 Charles

Obviously, Glenn missed that lecture on the WPA and which artists got funding. This is what happens when you drink on a school night.

776 Coracle  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:53:21pm

re: #769 sattv4u2

[Link: www.macscouter.com...]

Not a one of them has an environmental or conservationist tag. I do see smelting and refining, however.

777 debutaunt  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:53:34pm

re: #757 Diego

You can't blame the minimum wage for that. I blame greed. There are a million stories of people laid off and their job going overseas when the company was making great sales and profits and the employees were getting a good wage for the work they did.

Somehow I guessed that this would end up with greed being the culprit.

778 sagehen  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:53:45pm

re: #735 Salamantis

You miss my point. If you have to pay someone no less than as much as you make to take care of your kid so you can work, you will be working for nothing.

Group day care doesn't charge $7 per hour per child, the cost of daycare workers is split among several children. And most parents don't need to pay for every single hour they aren't personally with their child -- they trade off with neighbors, or an extended family member helps sometimes, some child-care centers are partially subsidized by employers or charities or schools or various levels of gov't...

Only the wealthy have, or would ever expect to have, a full-time nanny for one child.

779 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:54:10pm

re: #762 Charles

It was disturbing

Correction: 'it' was/is disturbed :)

780 Coracle  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:54:56pm

re: #774 DrNaughty

Why is it that every time I read or hear about an "Environmentalist". that they tend to be leftist democrats... ?

Because the right has abandoned a cause it should own. That. Is. The. Problem.

781 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:55:07pm

re: #773 Chip Designer

The world has become very, very small; and very, very flat.

782 claire  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:55:31pm

re: #764 Coracle

Wait- I thought Charles just told us not all environmentalists were leftists. Apparently you say they are? Can't both be right.

I dunno, maybe you can find a few here?

783 calcajun  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:55:55pm

re: #769 sattv4u2

[Link: www.macscouter.com...]

My 15 year-old is starting on his Eagle project. We're pushing the 12 year-old along.

784 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:56:11pm

re: #777 debutaunt

Somehow I guessed that this would end up with greed being the culprit.

But then it always does. Greed of business owners looking for more profit and greed of consumers not willing to pay for better quality good at a higher price made locally (nationally).

785 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:56:16pm

re: #762 Charles

The Birchers and Illuminati/NWO types are making a huge comeback on the right wing, and yes -- a lot of it is due to Fox News and Glenn Beck especially.

His show on the Rockefeller Building was probably the single craziest show that's ever been on a major network, by far. It was disturbing.

That's saying a lot but I agree. Fox has been testing the conspiracy waters for quite a while. Way back in January 2001, it was their entertainment division that was responsible for the jaw-droppingly stupid and reckless broadcast of Conspiracy Theory: Did We Land on the Moon?.
At the time, it was scandalous, absolutely breathtaking, that a major network would give any credence at all to this kind of insanity. Now, not so much.

786 sagehen  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:57:11pm

re: #743 debutaunt

Can you imagine the horror of trying to enforce that?

We just did.

The minimum was recently raised to -- wow, almost exactly that result according to the chart seen in comment #722.

See how easy that was?

787 Coracle  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:57:38pm

re: #782 claire

Wait- I thought Charles just told us not all environmentalists were leftists. Apparently you say they are? Can't both be right.

I dunno, maybe you can find a few here?

How many here are pushing responsible environmental policy within their companies and/or the government? Where are the conservative corporate and government environmental leaders?

788 DrNaughty  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:58:06pm

Bye all . Mrs Naughty is demanding my attention

789 Pianobuff  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:58:14pm

re: #785 Shiplord Kirel

That's saying a lot but I agree. Fox has been testing the conspiracy waters for quite a while. Way back in January 2001, it was their entertainment division that was responsible for the jaw-droppingly stupid and reckless broadcast of Conspiracy Theory: Did We Land on the Moon?.
At the time, it was scandalous, absolutely breathtaking, that a major network would give any credence at all to this kind of insanity. Now, not so much.

History Channel (while certainly not a news station) has some pretty bizarre programming for a "History" channel. 2012, Mayan prophecy, and the ilk. I haven't figured out their programming strategy.

790 yochanan  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:58:42pm

re: #785 Shiplord Kirel

BDS sure added to it.

other wise rational people because of there BDS believed a lot a b.s.

791 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:58:57pm

re: #776 Coracle

Not a one of them has an environmental or conservationist tag. I do see smelting and refining, however.

Talk about a "meaningless tag!"

So one has to sit in a tree to "save" it for one to have environmetalist bona foes?

Here's three former scouts that I woukd bet have proactively done more for the environement than any dozens of your champions

•John W. Creighton, Jr. - President & CEO of Weyerhaeuser Company

•John F Kennedy - First US President who was a Scout

•Bill Gates - Life, founder of Microsoft Corp.

792 Gus  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:58:57pm

re: #780 Coracle

Because the right has abandoned a cause it should own. That. Is. The. Problem.

Just found this:

Republicans for Environmental Protection

How does REP answer those who believe that no "real Republican" wants to protect the environment or believes in conservation? How do we respond to those who insist that regulatory reform and property rights are more vital than laws to prevent the extinction of species?

1. We point with pride to the great GOP leaders of the past who fought to save natural treasures, signed landmark environmental-protection laws, and established many of the policies we take for granted today. We remember Teddy Roosevelt, who established our unmatched system of wildlife refuges and national parks. We remind people that Barry Goldwater, the father of conservatism, was a lifelong conservationist (and also a REP America member). We recall that Richard Nixon signed the Clean Air Act, the Endangered Species Act, the National Environmental Policy Act, and also established the Environmental Protection Agency.

2. We talk of the bi-partisan efforts of previous decades, which eliminated burning rivers, toxic waste dumps, DDT and other environmental horrors. Republicans had no special exemption from polluted air and contaminated water, so they made sure their leaders heeded their concerns.

3. We remind skeptics that nothing is more conservative than conservation. True conservatives should safeguard the resources on which the health, recreation, and economic prosperity of present and future Americans depend. There is nothing conservative—and certainly nothing wise—in squandering our energy, clean air and water, beloved landscapes, wildlife, wilderness, wetlands, and other natural treasures.

793 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:59:25pm

re: #788 DrNaughty

Bye all . Mrs Naughty is demanding my attention

Have to say, that sounds like a good thing.

/

794 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:59:28pm

re: #788 DrNaughty

Chow m8 :)

795 jaunte  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 1:59:28pm

re: #784 Diego

But then it always does. Greed of business owners looking for more profit and greed of consumers not willing to pay for better quality good at a higher price made locally (nationally).

This becomes a silly argument if you remember that some of these 'greedy' consumers are people making minimum wage who want to hang on to more of their money.

796 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:00:11pm

re: #786 sagehen

Now? The poverty lines will raise. It's insidious.

I'm walking; but the whole idea of the minimum wage is exactly what it is supposed to be...entry level money. If after working somewhere for a few years, you have not raised your value in that employer's eyes? You deserve no more than minimum wage.

797 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:00:35pm

re: #788 DrNaughty

Bye all . Mrs Naughty is demanding my attention

rawr.

798 claire  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:00:46pm

re: #782 claire

or here, maybe? lol.

799 debutaunt  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:00:47pm

re: #786 sagehen

We just did.

The minimum was recently raised to -- wow, almost exactly that result according to the chart seen in comment #722.

See how easy that was?

It isn't fair.

800 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:00:55pm

re: #795 jaunte

Indeed. As I always say: it's easier to talk a tough game then to actually play it. There are no easy answers.

801 [deleted]  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:01:27pm
802 Wendya  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:01:28pm

re: #668 Diego

I believe they're greatly outweighed by the consequence of NOT having a minimum wage. I mean really, it's not like the minimum wage is some great boon, it's just a bottom line for people who don't have anything else.

Increasing the minimum wage does a couple of things. It increases the money the government takes in from payroll and income taxes and it increases the amount union members make if they union pegs wage increases to increases in the minimum wage. For many union members, an increase in the minimum wage is an automatic pay raise for them without the messy negotiations.

803 Gus  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:01:38pm

The 10 Biggest Republican Environmental Accomplishments

804 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:02:42pm

re: #798 claire

or here, maybe? lol.

Claire. Don't you understand. You have to sit in a tree 24/7 for months blocking a bulldozer to be considered an 'environmentalist"

//

805 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:03:19pm

re: #799 debutaunt

It isn't fair.

What is this... "fair"?

806 claire  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:03:56pm

re: #787 Coracle

See my #798, por favor. The link didn't make it-

807 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:04:05pm

re: #801 buzzsawmonkey

Because there have been cases of business increasing profits very well and yet still outsourcing to make more. If I'm not mistaken a good example would be HP.

808 Perplexed  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:04:15pm

I seem to recall that the EPA came into existence around 1970 due to a proposal put forth by President Nixon. Claiming that republicans don't want a clean, healthy environment, just sound strange.

Now as to bad stuff in the drinking water (natural stuff) and the cost to remove those things i.e. arsenic, the issue was with the amount of arsenic, not the fact it was there. We've got some places in the US that have radium in the water. I suspect that in both the arsenic and radium in the water, it would cost less to have drinking water trucked in than to remove it.

809 debutaunt  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:04:55pm

re: #805 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

What is this... "fair"?

The minimum wage is way too low, dont'cha think?

810 capitalist piglet  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:05:24pm

re: #112 Pianobuff

What the hell happened in the vetting process? I'm really starting to wonder.

One alternative is that it failed.

The other end of the spectrum would be that the vetting process worked just fine and these appointees are ideological soulmates of Obama.

I find either of these scenarios disturbing.

I find it very hard to believe that Obama's people - and Obama himself -didn't know what Van Jones was all about, and doesn't know the same about most of the radicals he has drawn close.

Your latter theory is the most plausible, and the more disturbing of the two.

811 Pianobuff  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:05:29pm

re: #808 Perplexed

I seem to recall that the EPA came into existence around 1970 due to a proposal put forth by President Nixon. Claiming that republicans don't want a clean, healthy environment, just sound strange.

Now as to bad stuff in the drinking water (natural stuff) and the cost to remove those things i.e. arsenic, the issue was with the amount of arsenic, not the fact it was there. We've got some places in the US that have radium in the water. I suspect that in both the arsenic and radium in the water, it would cost less to have drinking water trucked in than to remove it.

Was it during Nixon's presidency that the crying Indian commercial was released? I remember that vividly.

812 Coracle  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:05:30pm

re: #791 sattv4u2

Talk about a "meaningless tag!"

So one has to sit in a tree to "save" it for one to have environmetalist bona foes?

Here's three former scouts that I woukd bet have proactively done more for the environement than any dozens of your champions

•John W. Creighton, Jr. - President & CEO of Weyerhaeuser Company

•John F Kennedy - First US President who was a Scout

•Bill Gates - Life, founder of Microsoft Corp.

Kennedy and Gates are conservatives? That's news to me. It seems to bolster my point, actually. I don't know anything about Creighton's environmental profile. Neither, apparently to you.

One does not have to "sit in a tree" to be environmentally active. That's a silly straw man. How about being a business leader pushing for responsible development. A power industry CEO on the pushing end of renewables and the leading pre-regulation edge of pollution reduction.

813 jaunte  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:05:41pm

re: #807 Diego

HP is a publicly traded, global company; the officers have a fiduciary responsibility to provide a return on investment.

814 [deleted]  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:06:16pm
815 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:06:16pm

re: #801 buzzsawmonkey
Frakin' profit.
re: #784 Diego
You really don't like profit, do you.

816 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:06:35pm

re: #801 buzzsawmonkey

Why is a business owner "greedy" for seeking higher profits but a wage earner not "greedy" for seeking higher wages?

Good point. I'm actually in the process of seeking a slightly higher wage.
I have to prove that I am worth it.
I am.
But I might be a bit biased.
//

817 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:06:37pm

re: #808 Perplexed

.. it would cost less to have drinking water trucked in than to remove it

But removing it is still the 'right' answer, even if it costs more.

818 Mr Pancakes  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:06:52pm

re: #802 Wendya

Unions? I'm sure that sometime in the dim and distant past they served as a noble venture.

819 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:07:26pm

re: #811 Pianobuff

Was it during Nixon's presidency that the crying Indian commercial was released? I remember that vividly.

Yeah, and the actor was an Italian guy.

820 capitalist piglet  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:07:50pm

re: #811 Pianobuff

Was it during Nixon's presidency that the crying Indian commercial was released? I remember that vividly.

A bit of trivia: "Iron Eyes" Cody, the "crying Indian", wasn't an American Indian at all. He was Italian.

821 debutaunt  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:07:54pm

re: #813 jaunte

HP is a publicly traded, global company; the officers have a fiduciary responsibility to provide a return on investment.

Talking to a wall. General understanding of economy is lacking.

822 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:07:57pm

re: #798 claire

or here, maybe? lol.

re: #804 sattv4u2

Claire. Don't you understand. You have to sit in a tree 24/7 for months blocking a bulldozer to be considered an 'environmentalist"

//

You also have to block water from getting to farmlands in California because of endangerd fish, threatening the livlihood of farmers and farm workers

[Link: www.redorbit.com...]

823 Perplexed  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:08:03pm

re: #811 Pianobuff

Was it during Nixon's presidency that the crying Indian commercial was released? I remember that vividly.

I remember it as well, but think that it might have been during the latter years of LBJ's administration.

Lady Bird Johnson did much to get the ball rolling on getting things cleaned up.

824 [deleted]  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:08:28pm
825 Wendya  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:08:34pm

re: #786 sagehen

We just did.

The minimum was recently raised to -- wow, almost exactly that result according to the chart seen in comment #722.

See how easy that was?

What's the unemployment rate these days?

Only our idiotic congress would jack up the federal minimum wage in the middle of a major recession.

826 sagehen  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:09:12pm

re: #823 Perplexed

I remember it as well, but think that it might have been during the latter years of LBJ's administration.

Lady Bird Johnson did much to get the ball rolling on getting things cleaned up.

wasn't she the one with wildflowers near highways?

827 karmic_inquisitor  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:09:18pm

Regarding minimum wage -

I recently took over two restaurants that were losing money and have managed to keep them open and get them to break even as we work on improving the places in hopes that the economy in SoCal will improve and they might make some omeny someday.

I can tell people here who are contemplating minimum wage in the abstract (and making all sorts of value assertions as to what is and isn't justified) that there is a harsh reality - raising the minimum wage closes businesses and eliminates jobs.

As I go through the books of these places and look at what we are doing now I know that the raise to $7.50 from $6.75 in January 2007 followed by the raise to $8.00 a year later basically stalled these businesses at near break even. Then the economy crashed and -thud- many restaurants just closed.

About 30% of the restaurant employment in southern California has been destroyed in the last 3 years when you measure employment in terms of the hours worked. As things recover fewer people will be hired because of the minimum wage being higher because each new hire carries a risk. You don't get to use a training wage. You have to pay servers full minimum wage even though they get tips that far exceed what they see in their checks.

Restaurants in the US have traditionally been places to get a "first job" for teenagers and young adults. Now it is too risky to hire kids, and there are adults willing to take the jobs for the hours. So is anyone surprised that national unemployment for workers under 25 is the highest ever recorded?

Working as a busboy or dishwasher or in basic kitchen prep is not a career choice. It is not a job to have all of your live and retire on. It isn't a job to come to after dropping your kids off at school. It is a place where you learn good work habits and form the ambition to get a better job that pays more. Those jobs need to exist in our economy. The "moral imperative" of having only wages that pay for families and vacations will simply eliminate these jobs as well as many of the businesses that provide them. And minimum wage is more livable than no wage at all.

828 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:09:20pm

I have no problem with profit. Do you have any problem with all manufacturing moving from the US to India?

829 Coracle  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:10:33pm

re: #806 claire

See my #798, por favor. The link didn't make it-

That's certainly more like it (that link worked, and Gus posted one to the same group). I believe Charles has also ref'ed them before. They seem definitely on the right track. I haven't had the chance to look there extensively. Do they have a list of active congressional reps or business leaders?

830 Wendya  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:10:57pm

re: #811 Pianobuff

Was it during Nixon's presidency that the crying Indian commercial was released? I remember that vividly.

With the Italian guy who was hired to be an Indian?

831 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:11:28pm

re: #812 Coracle

Kennedy and Gates are conservatives? That's news to me. It seems to bolster my point, actually. I don't know anything about Creighton's environmental profile. Neither, apparently to you.

One does not have to "sit in a tree" to be environmentally active. That's a silly straw man. How about being a business leader pushing for responsible development. A power industry CEO on the pushing end of renewables and the leading pre-regulation edge of pollution reduction.

I see. So it's the POWER companies "JOB" to come up with a competitve source of energy to put the power company out of business!?!?

Perfect Business Plan!

832 Pianobuff  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:11:41pm

re: #820 capitalist piglet

A bit of trivia: "Iron Eyes" Cody, the "crying Indian", wasn't an American Indian at all. He was Italian.


re: #819 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Yeah, and the actor was an Italian guy.

Well I'll be hornswoggled. Excellent piece of trivia and it only took me 35+ years to get the news.

Now I'm wondering if Mulberry St. was in the background of the ad.

833 Coracle  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:11:58pm

re: #822 sattv4u2

Claire. Don't you understand. You have to sit in a tree 24/7 for months blocking a bulldozer to be considered an 'environmentalist"

//

You also have to block water from getting to farmlands in California because of endangerd fish, threatening the livlihood of farmers and farm workers

You make my point for me. The only reason this is the case is because the right has ceded the cause. To their shame.

834 debutaunt  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:12:25pm

re: #828 Diego

I have no problem with profit. Do you have any problem with all manufacturing moving from the US to India?

Just another unintended consequence.

835 jaunte  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:12:45pm

re: #828 Diego

I have no problem with profit. Do you have any problem with all manufacturing moving from the US to India?

That's not happening.

NEW YORK -- The U.S. manufacturing sector grew in August for the first time in 19 months, adding to evidence the recession is ending.

The better-than-expected reading yesterday by the Institute for Supply Management showed the highest number for its manufacturing index since June 2007. New customer orders jumped to a level not seen since late 2004.
[Link: lfpress.ca...]

836 Wendya  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:12:50pm

re: #828 Diego

I have no problem with profit. Do you have any problem with all manufacturing moving from the US to India?

I'd prefer that we reform our tax code so we don't chase jobs out of the country.

837 Perplexed  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:12:54pm

re: #817 Diego

But removing it is still the 'right' answer, even if it costs more.

Depends on how much you, a consumer, is willing to pay for tap water. If it costs $10.00 a gallon, then you might reconsider living where you chose to live.

Also, at what point do the contaminants begin to have an adverse effect on humans? If it would take 90 years of drinking the water for it to adversely affect you, then do you just ignore it? Cost/Risk.

838 Coracle  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:13:14pm

re: #831 sattv4u2

I see. So it's the POWER companies "JOB" to come up with a competitve source of energy to put the power company out of business!?!?

Perfect Business Plan!

Don't be dense. A power company's job is to provide power. If they are the leaders in developing the next generation of power production, they provide that power too. Which is why they should be the leaders.

839 [deleted]  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:13:15pm
840 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:13:27pm

re: #833 Coracle

You make my point for me. The only reason this is the case is because the right has ceded the cause. To their shame.

It's been pointed out to you by a number of posters that is NOt the case. That you refuse to accept that is a you problem, not a me problem

841 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:13:37pm

I highly recommend the book "The World is Flat" by Thomas Friedman (yeah, I read a book, sue me)...

Gives some very good information about the global economy. Which is not something that can be fought.

It is what it is.

842 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:14:11pm

re: #834 debutaunt

Just another unintended consequence.

Of miminum wage? I hardly think so. I'd say most of those jobs were not minimum wage jobs.

843 Perplexed  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:14:45pm

re: #826 sagehen

In some places, yes, but it was a beautify America program. During the 50s and 60s some highways were trash lined and the number of bill boards per mile was astounding. She pushed for it to be cleaned up. I have much more respect for her than I do for her hubby.

844 Coracle  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:15:07pm

re: #840 sattv4u2

It's been pointed out to you by a number of posters that is NOt the case. That you refuse to accept that is a you problem, not a me problem

I still don't see any republican or conservative leaders stumping for environmental causes.

845 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:15:14pm

re: #832 Pianobuff

Espera de Corti was his name.

846 karmic_inquisitor  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:16:32pm

I am going to print a new bumper sticker:

"Legalize Capitalism"

847 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:16:35pm

re: #822 sattv4u2

You also have to block water from getting to farmlands in California because of endangerd fish, threatening the livlihood of farmers and farm workers

[Link: www.redorbit.com...]

Actor Gary Sinise, comedian Paul Rodriguez, and some other famous people I can't recall at the moment, have signed on as supporting those protesting this decision.

From that article you link is are some facts that I always love throw in peoples' faces (heh heh) whenever they express the stupid desire to see California wiped off the map:

California is the nation's No. 1 farm state in terms of the value of the crops produced, which stands at more than $36 billion a year.

The Central Valley, a fertile but arid region spanning roughly 500 miles from Bakersfield to Redding, produces over half of the fruit, vegetables and nuts grown in the United States and is California’s agricultural heartland.

848 debutaunt  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:17:35pm

re: #842 Diego

Of miminum wage? I hardly think so. I'd say most of those jobs were not minimum wage jobs.

Of course not. Why do you think those jobs are gone?

849 claire  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:17:59pm

re: #831 sattv4u2

Actually, PNM Resources is on that track. Jeff Sterba is the CEO. They seem to be on the leading edge of getting out of dirty power.

850 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:18:15pm

re: #839 buzzsawmonkey

I never mentioned caps. I mentioned a company which was making great profits, profits beating expectations, and still outsourced jobs. That is just blatant greed.

Talk to the average American, Dem, Rep or Ind, and ask them what they think about it. They'll be more than glad to give their opinion on it.

Obama has mentioned rewarding companies who create jobs and taxing companies who ship them overseas. Seems reasonable to me.

851 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:18:55pm

re: #839 buzzsawmonkey

The best way to get companies to leave the US lock, stock and barrel is to start putting caps on their profits based on what you think is "reasonable."

DING! DING! DING!
We have a winner!

852 Pianobuff  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:19:48pm

re: #850 Diego

I never mentioned caps. I mentioned a company which was making great profits, profits beating expectations, and still outsourced jobs. That is just blatant greed.

Talk to the average American, Dem, Rep or Ind, and ask them what they think about it. They'll be more than glad to give their opinion on it.

Obama has mentioned rewarding companies who create jobs and taxing companies who ship them overseas. Seems reasonable to me.

Let's screw the shareholders?

853 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:20:39pm

re: #851 Floral Giraffe

DING! DING! DING!
We have a winner!

But it's NOT a winner! No one has even mentioned putting caps on profits. It's a non-starter and not part of this, or any, discussion I'm aware of.

854 debutaunt  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:21:34pm

re: #852 Pianobuff

Let's screw the shareholders?

Oh yeah. Selfish greedy shareholders.

855 Coracle  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:21:57pm

Now this is interesting.

When a business uses someone else’s property for its own purposes, it ought to pay the owner. Especially when permission was not secured ahead of time.

Which is why industries ought to pay for disposing of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere and why the revenues ought to come back to you and me.

The sky is mine. And it’s yours too. Those who use the sky to dispose of their refuse ought to pay for the privilege. It doesn’t matter whether the payments come from auctioning emissions allowances or levying a carbon tax. Either way, it’s a user fee.

856 jaunte  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:22:04pm

re: #854 debutaunt

Selfish greedy pension funds.

857 Wendya  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:23:39pm

re: #850 Diego

Obama has mentioned rewarding companies who create jobs and taxing companies who ship them overseas. Seems reasonable to me.


How is Obama going to reward me for creating a job? By lessening the punishments for owning a business? Wow... what a deal!

858 [deleted]  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:23:59pm
859 JHW  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:24:59pm

Arsenic in water ,

Arsenic in ground water is largely the result of minerals dissolving from weathered rocks and soils

from the
USGS site along with maps.

Arsenic may be found in water which has flowed through arsenic-rich rocks.

from the World Health Organization website

To be specific, a natural process, not always the results of actions of eevil capitalists.

860 MacDuff  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:25:08pm

re: #807 Diego

Because there have been cases of business increasing profits very well and yet still outsourcing to make more. If I'm not mistaken a good example would be HP.

Is there an issue here with with profits, or even more profits?

The whole point of business is profit, not to be a means by which employment is provided to the people. Profits are that which fund 401Ks and provide income for retirees. Profits are that which fund R&D which provides new technologies and new products, which provide more profits.

Thus are the "physics" that run the engine of capitalism and "profits' are the fuel.

861 claire  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:26:03pm

re: #829 Coracle

They have a list of Honorary Board members that includes a bunch of congressman. My computer is getting to slow and glitchy to link right now-

862 Pianobuff  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:26:07pm

re: #858 buzzsawmonkey


This is not unlike a pioneer family managing to raise a bumper wheat crop and then saying, "We're doing so well, we should abandon the farm and go back East."

This gave me a mental image of "Little House on the Turnpike"

863 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:26:36pm

re: #857 Wendya

I don't know all of his plans, nor am I versed in a great many, but one such plan was tax credits for new hires, thus rewarding the business for doing the right thing and keeping jobs in the US.

864 debutaunt  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:26:42pm

re: #860 MacDuff

Is there an issue here with with profits, or even more profits?

The whole point of business is profit, not to be a means by which employment is provided to the people. Profits are that which fund 401Ks and provide income for retirees. Profits are that which fund R&D which provides new technologies and new products, which provide more profits.

Thus are the "physics" that run the engine of capitalism and "profits' are the fuel.

I'm not sure if Obama is clear on the concept either.

865 [deleted]  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:28:02pm
866 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:28:19pm

re: #849 claire

Actually, PNM Resources is on that track. Jeff Sterba is the CEO. They seem to be on the leading edge of getting out of dirty power.

Many regional power companies are following suit. Shell, however, after investing large amounts in research of renewable and alternate has pulled out.

867 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:28:28pm

re: #860 MacDuff

Yeah, and that's all well and good until your job is outsourced.

868 claire  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:28:42pm

re: #863 Diego

But the tax credit was only like 10% of the cost of hiring an additional worker, i.e., no help at all.

869 yael  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:30:15pm

As a low level munchkin in the agricultural research field, I can attest that there is a lot of work going on mostly outside the glare of media publicity to solve problems of sustainable productivity, water quality, erosion prevention, etc etc. A lot of good, steady ordinary non-political people who know what they are doing in their respective albeit narrow fields. Not being an ideologue by temperament, I find this deeply reassuring for the future prospects of all my fellow citizens of whatever political persuasion.

[Now redundant, see 859 JCW] Footnote re arsenic in groundwater: where I grew up in Alaska there are creeks that won't meet water standards even though there's no human habitation within a hundred miles. Comes from water flowing through arsenic laden rock formations.

870 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:30:42pm

re: #868 claire

What would you suggest then? Remembering that the start of this conversation, hours ago now, was the minimum wage, which hardly effects major corporations which outsource..

871 debutaunt  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:32:00pm

re: #870 Diego

What would you suggest then? Remembering that the start of this conversation, hours ago now, was the minimum wage, which hardly effects major corporations which outsource..

Diego, read a book about economics. Everything is connected.

872 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:32:03pm

re: #870 Diego

What would you suggest then? Remembering that the start of this conversation, hours ago now, was the minimum wage, which hardly effects major corporations which outsource..

Rememerb the question I asked hours ago (whose job is it) that you never answered?

873 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:32:38pm

Okay than, who's is it?

874 debutaunt  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:33:30pm

re: #873 Diego

Okay than, who's is it?

then

875 yael  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:33:33pm

Sorry - JHW

876 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:33:46pm

typo

877 Coracle  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:34:02pm

re: #855 Coracle

That quote was from REP VP Jim DiPeso in a New Majority Blog post titled "Charge Companies for Releasing Carbon Dioxide"

Here's another REP article: Absolutely Amazing Distortions Related to Global Warming that would make folks like me and Ludwig proud.

Unfortunately, it also goes to show that REP is a bit player in the Republican party. Their voices are completely drwoned out by the know nothings determined to make environmentalism and climate concerns lefty causes.

"Yeah, we've got environmentalists too!" Makes REP look like the enviro version of the Log Cabin Republicans. Completely ineffectual on party policy and direction of leadership.

878 MacDuff  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:34:07pm

re: #828 Diego

I have no problem with profit. Do you have any problem with all manufacturing moving from the US to India?

From my perspective, corporations, regardless of nationality, are under no obligation to "provide jobs". Are you aware that virtually ALL of the Japanese auto makers have factories in the U.S., employing American workers? Should the Japanese have a problem with that? These auto makers pay American workers well and they contribute to the overall welfare of the U.S.

What's the difference?

879 Diego  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:35:34pm

re: #878 MacDuff

That fine. Just don't let me catch you complaining that Obama hasn't 'made' enough jobs ;)

880 sattv4u2  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:36:03pm

re: #873 Diego

Okay than, who's is it?

The job belongs to the CORPORATION, NOT to "a' person. I work for a ortune 500 company now (used to be a small business owner for years)

They had a job. I( have a skill. My skill matched the opening they had. We agreed on compensatiion. At any time THEY and they alone can say
NO MORE JOB

If I say I want to leave, they find someone else with a matching skill set to fill it otr not

THEIR call, not mine
Again ,,it's THEIR job

The faster you understand that from BOTH sides, the better you'll do

881 jaunte  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:36:21pm

re: #878 MacDuff

Those Indians are coming, too:

Indian steelmaker Essar Steel said Thursday it planned to acquire US steel company Esmark, valuing the deal at 1.1 billion dollars, as it pushes ahead with an aggressive North American expansion drive.

With the planned buy, Essar will have nearly seven million tonnes of steelmaking capacity in the United States and Canada, making it a significant North American player, the company said in a release.[Link: rawstory.com...]

882 solomonpanting  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:37:59pm

re: #879 Diego

That fine. Just don't let me catch you complaining that Obama hasn't 'made' enough jobs ;)

It's not his job to make jobs.

883 [deleted]  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:38:10pm
884 claire  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:39:50pm

re: #870 Diego
Tax credits for other things like capital equipment improvements. Reducing onerous workers comp premiums. Simplifying regulations so one whole person doesn't have to be employed just to comply with government paperwork requirements. Encouraging banks to loan to small businesses, because if they don't start the money flow pretty soon they are going to kill us all off. Allowing losses to be spread over back years (they've already done this one.) Increase the limits for SBA qualification to level the playing field, for instance if you own a house, you don't qualify for SBA consideration in contracts. Stop requiring union wages on government construction jobs that are double the market rates. This generates fraud and abuse by some companies that lie about payroll and results in another non-level playing field. I could go on for days.

885 SixDegrees  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:40:04pm

re: #644 Charles

We don't know. We do know that two of the people who signed it said it was very different from what appeared at the Truther website.

CNN has now moved this story to their prime position; it's their lead at the moment. The caption accompanying the headline is playing up the 9/11 petition signature as the only reason for his resignation.

I take this as a sign of things to come. By Monday AM, CNN will also have "discovered" that this particular tale is full of falsehoods and distortions, laying the groundwork for future scoffing at anything the GOP brings forward as criticism. By the time health care is getting another look, anything criticisms emanating from the GOP will be laughed off with scorn as delusional hysteria, "just like the Van Jones witch hunt."

If anyone thinks CNN is headlining the Troofer angle of this story and giving it pole position, remember all the times you've remarked about how the MSM is dedicated to the Democratic Party and to undermining the GOP. Why on earth do you think they'd do this for a little-known underling whose departure would have caused little more than a vague ripple otherwise?

886 Wendya  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:41:08pm

re: #863 Diego

I don't know all of his plans, nor am I versed in a great many, but one such plan was tax credits for new hires, thus rewarding the business for doing the right thing and keeping jobs in the US.

Do you know why the 3K "tax credit" for new hires was dropped?

It was dropped because it was a joke and wouldn't have resulted in an increase in employment. If you can't afford to hire a new full time worker, a 3K "tax credit" isn't going to help you. Additionally, it would have made it very attractive for companies to fire all of their employees and then immediately rehire them to take advantage of that credit. My employees were even joking about it. Hey, fire me, hire me back and we can split that 3K!

887 Wendya  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:43:09pm

re: #882 solomonpanting

It's not his job to make jobs.

He isn't capable of creating any private sector jobs.

888 Wendya  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:45:12pm

re: #885 SixDegrees

The caption accompanying the headline is playing up the 9/11 petition signature as the only reason for his resignation.

Well, you have to understand... from the position of CNN, calling the former President a crack head, calling current republicans assholes and being a far left flake wouldn't be considered grounds for the resignation of a member of Obama's administration.

889 MacDuff  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:45:57pm

re: #867 Diego

Yeah, and that's all well and good until your job is outsourced.

Funny you should bring that up.

I was downsized 5+ years ago, at age 50, and have been struggling ever since. I'm currently making a quarter (if that) of what I once made. now I'm 56 and still struggling.

I guess I could have become bitter, but I understand that my own situation is not an indictment of the capitalist system. There are winners and losers in any system, but unlike other systems, capitalism allows losers to once again become winners. That's what economic freedom is all about.

Been there, done that, got the T-shirt and I'm still a believer in the capitalist system.

890 solomonpanting  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:47:23pm

re: #887 Wendya

He isn't capable of creating any private sector jobs.


Perhaps if he were to convince his party to lower some of our most trusted taxes, there'd be a surge of private sector hirings.

891 mjwsatx  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:48:22pm

Thomas Sowell wrote that blaming economic problems on "greed" is like blaming airline disasters on gravity. Far too people on both the left and the right seem to understand this concept.

892 Coracle  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:48:45pm

One more from the REP crowd

10 Environmental Issues the GOP should champion.

They include climate change - including support for Bob Inglis' carbon tax, and Clean energy highlighted diversification including renewables.

893 jaunte  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:49:26pm

re: #891 mjwsatx

I will now greedily offer you the word "few" for a reasonable price.

894 MacDuff  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:52:09pm

re: #879 Diego

That fine. Just don't let me catch you complaining that Obama hasn't 'made' enough jobs ;)

Presidents don't provide jobs; PROFITABLE corporations do. (Economics-Capitalist version 101)

Obama isn't my savior; he's my impediment.

895 debutaunt  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:55:55pm

re: #893 jaunte

I will now greedily offer you the word "few" for a reasonable price.

'Two' would also work.

896 jaunte  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:56:18pm

re: #895 debutaunt

Ah, competition!

897 spiderx  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:57:47pm

re: #885 SixDegrees

CNN has now moved this story to their prime position; it's their lead at the moment. The caption accompanying the headline is playing up the 9/11 petition signature as the only reason for his resignation.

I take this as a sign of things to come. By Monday AM, CNN will also have "discovered" that this particular tale is full of falsehoods and distortions, laying the groundwork for future scoffing at anything the GOP brings forward as criticism. By the time health care is getting another look, anything criticisms emanating from the GOP will be laughed off with scorn as delusional hysteria, "just like the Van Jones witch hunt."

If anyone thinks CNN is headlining the Troofer angle of this story and giving it pole position, remember all the times you've remarked about how the MSM is dedicated to the Democratic Party and to undermining the GOP. Why on earth do you think they'd do this for a little-known underling whose departure would have caused little more than a vague ripple otherwise?

Because sadly there is very little investigative reporting in the mainstream media these days. Most of the reporting is about what other people are saying or what is making news on other networks.

So a narrative makes it's way like a giant blob eating up every MSM outlet. They all report on the controversy.

As long as their are fringe people that have national platforms like sean hannity and glenn beck every now and then they are going to get their conspiracy theories into the MSM.

also..i don't think anyone could describe CNN as liberal. I wouldn't call them conservative either. I wouldn't ascribe the word news to any of the cable "news" networks.

898 FrogMarch  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 2:59:58pm

Nice diversion, Jones. If none of it were true, you wouldn't be in this position. Sadly, Obama never vetted you because no one really vetted Obama.

899 MacDuff  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 3:02:54pm

re: #879 Diego

That fine. Just don't let me catch you complaining that Obama hasn't 'made' enough jobs ;)

And another thing; wipe that smirk off your face.

I have experience in places where most people don't even have places, and I'll not abide by sophomoric arguments that even include references to presidents providing jobs.

900 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, Sep 6, 2009 3:10:26pm

re: #899 MacDuff

Just put it on GAZE.

901 voirdire  Tue, Sep 8, 2009 8:58:48am

"Jones was wrong, actually, in disavowing his support for 9/11 conspiracy theory." -John McWhorter, The New Republic

902 TGregg  Wed, Sep 9, 2009 8:02:11pm

Van Jones is a nutjob. He's a commie:

[Link: newsbusters.org...]

He named his kid after a commie revolutionary:

[Link: pajamasmedia.com...]

He's a big fan of cop killer Mumia Abu-Jamal:

[Link: www.sfgate.com...]

He even cut an album with that POS:

[Link: www.verumserum.com...]

He thinks Whitey is out to poison blacks:

[Link: gatewaypundit.blogspot.com...]

Is he a troofer? The evidence is inconclusive. And there may be crystal loving Wiccan liberals who believe in UFOs, crops circles, Bigfoot, Elvis lives, stones have souls and the government is reverse engineering at Area 51, but don't believe in the Loch Ness Monster. Maybe.

But I doubt it.

Regardless, he's clearly not fit to serve in the federal government.

903 Ed_Gibbon  Thu, Sep 10, 2009 7:57:26am

re: #17 quickjustice

I'm no fan of Van Jones's. And without even addressing the "smears", I can only ask what, if anything, the Obama Administration WILL fight for if they're dumping him under the bus?


Re-election...


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