Fired Head of Texas Forensics Panel: ‘Perry Aides Pressured Me’

US News • Views: 3,319

The Chicago Tribune’s Steve Mills has more on the unfolding scandal of Texas Governor Rick Perry’s apparent attempt to shut down an investigation into the execution of a man who was probably innocent: Former head of Texas forensics panel probing 1991 fire says he felt pressured by Gov. Perry aides.

Just months before the controversial removal of three members of a state commission investigating the forensics that led to a Texas man’s 2004 execution, top aides to Gov. Rick Perry tried to pressure the chairman of the panel over the direction of the inquiry, the chairman has told the Tribune.

Samuel Bassett, whom Perry replaced on the Texas Forensic Science Commission two weeks ago, said he twice was called to meetings with Perry’s top attorneys. At one of those meetings, Bassett said he was told they were unhappy with the course of the commission’s investigation.

“I was surprised that they were involving themselves in the commission’s decision-making,” Bassett said. “I did feel some pressure from them, yes. There’s no question about that.”

And the Houston Chronicle’s Lise Olsen has uncovered a possible explanation for why Perry might be trying to quash the investigation: Perry’s office quiet on expert’s arson report.

Just 88 minutes before the February 2004 execution of Cameron Todd Willingham, Gov. Rick Perry’s office received by fax a crucial arson expert’s opinion that later ignited a political firestorm over whether Texas, on Perry’s watch, used botched forensic evidence to send a man to his death.

In a letter sent Feb. 14, three days before Willingham was scheduled to die, Perry had been asked to postpone the execution. The condemned man’s attorney argued that the newly obtained expert evidence showed Willingham had not set the house fire that killed his daughters, 2-year-old Amber and 1-year-old twins Karmon and Kameron, two days before Christmas in 1991.

On Feb. 17, the day of the execution, Perry’s office got the five-page faxed report at 4:52 p.m., according to documents the Houston Chronicle obtained in response to a public records request.

But it’s unclear from the records whether he read it that day. Perry’s office has declined to release any of his or his staff’s comments or analysis of the reprieve request.

(Hat tip: iceweasel.)

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102 comments
1 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:15:40pm

Sounds like Rick Perry may be in some deep shit.

2 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:16:05pm

This is exactly why anti-science politicians should be avoided.

3 Danny  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:18:02pm

I haven't followed the case very closely. I take it the arson findings were disproven?

4 reine.de.tout  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:18:05pm

A report that important should have been read and acted on immediately. Since there is no release of staff comments or analysis - I have to wonder if immediate attention just did not happen on this? Major failure of responsibility.

5 Danny  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:19:01pm

Looks like the hamsters are in overdrive...I see double posts.

6 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:19:52pm

re: #2 Sharmuta

This is exactly why anti-science politicians should be avoided.

Not quite accurate, Shar. This is why sleezeball politicians should be avoided. One's position on science does not matter if one is a sleezeball to begin with. Rick Perry has some wonderful company now. He now holds company with Rod Blagojevich, Elliot Spitzer, and a whole host of sleezeball politicians.

7 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:20:14pm
Just months before the controversial removal of three members of a state commission investigating the forensics that led to a Texas man’s 2004 execution, top aides to Gov. Rick Perry tried to pressure the chairman of the panel over the direction of the inquiry, the chairman has told the Tribune.

Talk about a death panel. Where's Sarah Palin when you need her?

8 Danny  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:21:11pm

"...Perry’s office received by fax a crucial arson expert’s opinion that later ignited a political firestorm..."

An unfortunate metaphor...or maybe not.

9 Crimsonfisted  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:22:55pm

God rest your soul, Cameron Todd Willingham. Prayers for you and your family.

10 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:23:14pm

Like I said, I've been following this for some time. There is a long and stinking history in America of executing men who were innocent, because craven politicians want to bee seen as tough on crime and appeal to the basest urges of the masses.

I would note in passing that the thing about American politics that has always consued me the most is that those who are frequently the most vocally supportive of more and more capital punishment are frequently the ones who most vocally claim to be Christians.

Last time I checked, Christianity was about forgiveness.

Not being a Christian, I missed the memo, where that part of Christ's message got revoked.

11 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:23:23pm

If he's tried and convicted, can Perry share a cell with George "Lyin'" Ryan?

12 iceweasel  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:24:11pm

Thanks for the hat-tip, Charles.

More background here from the Dallas Morning News for those unfamiliar with the story: (this is Sept 20)

WASHINGTON – Governor Rick Perry today strenuously defended the execution of a Corsicana man whose conviction for killing his daughters in a house fire hinged on an arson finding that top experts call junk science.

“I’m familiar with the latter-day supposed experts on the arson side of it,” Perry said, making quotation marks with his fingers to underscore his skepticism.

Even without proof that the fire was arson, he added, the court records he reviewed before the execution of Cameron Todd Willingham in 2004 showed “clear and compelling, overwhelming evidence that he was in fact the murderer of his children.”

These were the governor’s first direct comments on a case that has drawn withering criticism from top fire experts.

Death penalty critics view the Willingham case as a study in shoddy – or at least outdated – science, and they consider it the first proven instance in 35 years of an executed man being proven innocent after death.

and this:

Three independent reviews over the last five years, involving seven of the nation’s top arson experts, found no evidence the fire was set intentionally. The most recent is a report commissioned by the Texas Forensic Science Commission.
13 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:24:15pm

re: #11 Honorary Yooper

If he's tried and convicted, can Perry share a cell with George "Lyin'" Ryan?

How does this change the outcome of the Texas gov. election?

14 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:24:41pm

re: #3 Danny

I haven't followed the case very closely. I take it the arson findings were disproven?

Yes that is the short of it.

But don't let science get in the way of giving the masses a body to gloat over.

It is positively Roman.

15 Jimmah  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:25:10pm

If Perry is shown to have sent a man to his death when he was aware of evidence to the contrary and ignored a valid request to postpone pending further investigation, how is that different from murder?

Congrats on the hat tip btw ice-ski :)

16 Danny  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:25:47pm

re: #12 iceweasel

Thanks, that answers my #3.

17 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:25:54pm

re: #15 Jimmah

If Perry is shown to have sent a man to his death when he was aware of evidence to the contrary and ignored a valid request to postpone pending further investigation, how is that different from murder?

Congrats on the hat tip btw ice-ski :)

Under Jewish law, it is not different from murder.

18 Baier  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:26:53pm

This doesn't make any sense to me. What can they gain from a cover up? What am I missing?

19 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:27:00pm

re: #3 Danny

I haven't followed the case very closely. I take it the arson findings were disproven?

IMHO (from reading reports in the press) ... yes

20 Killgore Trout  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:27:21pm

At first it seemed that this story was too far fetched but it looks like it has legs.

21 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:27:25pm

re: #6 Honorary Yooper

I think when an anti-science politician elected, from the left or the right, it hurts the country, the state, the area that the elected official represents. It doesn't matter if they're crooked or not- they don't understand science, but they're in a world where we need science every day to maintain our society. They make decisions on science that can and will affect everyone. From natural resources/the environment, to medicine and criminal justice. If these people undermine science now, they're really undermining our society.

22 DaddyG  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:27:45pm

re: #10 LudwigVanQuixote

I would note in passing that the thing about American politics that has always consued me the most is that those who are frequently the most vocally supportive of more and more capital punishment are frequently the ones who most vocally claim to be Christians.

Last time I checked, Christianity was about forgiveness.

I don't diasagree that executions should never be a political football... however you will find that most people calling for something in a predominantly Christian nation will be Christians (it's a numbers thing).

Christianity and Jesus specifically taught forgiveness but he also taught justice and He wasn't shy to advocate sharp justice for those who preyed on the innocent.

Having said that- It seems that the Governor of Texas has really stepped in it. If I were in his position I would be very eager for the truth to come out quickly. Then again I'd never be too busy to review a capital punishment case. That's is pathetic.

23 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:28:18pm

re: #18 Baier

This doesn't make any sense to me. What can they gain from a cover up? What am I missing?

They gain from not having been publicly proven to have railroaded an innocent man to his death and then causing people to question the entire way that the Texas GOP has tun the justice system.

24 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:28:18pm

re: #10 LudwigVanQuixote

Like I said, I've been following this for some time. There is a long and stinking history in America of executing men who were innocent, because craven politicians want to bee seen as tough on crime and appeal to the basest urges of the masses.

I would note in passing that the thing about American politics that has always consued me the most is that those who are frequently the most vocally supportive of more and more capital punishment are frequently the ones who most vocally claim to be Christians.

Last time I checked, Christianity was about forgiveness.

Not being a Christian, I missed the memo, where that part of Christ's message got revoked.

This has nothing to do with Christianity. This has to do with law and rotten politicians.

I could say that Torah has as more to say about capital punishment than the greek scriptures.

Why do you spin this into a religious topic?

25 avanti  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:28:30pm

That's my only real problem with capital punishment. If you made a mistake and execute a innocent person, you can't undo it. With lots of convicts being released 10,20 or even more years in prison after being falsely convicted, it gives me pause.

26 DaddyG  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:29:29pm

re: #22 DaddyG

I don't diasagree that executions should never be a political football...

Wow... did I just write that?

Sorry, it must be time for a snickers break.

27 Baier  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:29:41pm

re: #23 LudwigVanQuixote

Right, but why would they do that? I don't get it.

28 John Neverbend  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:30:29pm

re: #17 LudwigVanQuixote

Under Jewish law, it is not different from murder.

I was going to raise this. Was there ever a case in Talmud where, for example, the Sanhedrin ruled incorrectly on a death sentence and an innocent person was executed? Is any remedy set down? I know that there are discussions about incorrect rulings of the Sanhedrin, but I don't recall if they include capital punishment.

29 Flyers1974  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:30:44pm

re: #15 Jimmah

If Perry is shown to have sent a man to his death when he was aware of evidence to the contrary and ignored a valid request to postpone pending further investigation, how is that different from murder?

Congrats on the hat tip btw ice-ski :)

Morally speaking not much. Legally, no specific intent. Maybe immunity issues, etc...

30 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:32:31pm

re: #22 DaddyG

I don't diasagree that executions should never be a political football... however you will find that most people calling for something in a predominantly Christian nation will be Christians (it's a numbers thing).

Truth. Though many Christians are opposed to capital punishment and the largest Christian organization in the world, the Catholic Church is adamantly opposed. I will defer to the Pope as a superior voice of Christian doctrine than myself - and yes I am aware of the Reformation, but I fail to see how protestants did away with any of the teachings the church would site on the issue to back their position.

Christianity and Jesus specifically taught forgiveness but he also taught justice and He wasn't shy to advocate sharp justice for those who preyed on the innocent.

Also truth, but I had thought that those punishments were in the afterlife if one did not repent.

Having said that- It seems that the Governor of Texas has really stepped in it. If I were in his position I would be very eager for the truth to come out quickly. Then again I'd never be too busy to review a capital punishment case. That's is pathetic.

If you call railroading an innocent man to his death stepping in it, then yes, we agree.

31 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:33:09pm

re: #24 Walter L. Newton

This has nothing to do with Christianity. This has to do with law and rotten politicians.

I could say that Torah has as more to say about capital punishment than the greek scriptures.

Why do you spin this into a religious topic?

Because the rotten politicians in this case are bible banging Christians.

32 Jimmah  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:33:14pm

re: #21 Sharmuta

I think that defending something that is as contrary to reality as creationism forces one into habitual dishonesty. I've only even debated with one honest creationist, and she eventually changed her mind on the issue - lying is second nature to all the others I've ever spoken to or debated with.

33 John Neverbend  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:33:41pm

re: #25 avanti

That's my only real problem with capital punishment. If you made a mistake and execute a innocent person, you can't undo it. With lots of convicts being released 10,20 or even more years in prison after being falsely convicted, it gives me pause.

Agreed. This is the subject of a British movie, "Let Him Have It". Derek Bentley was hanged in 1953 and granted a partial pardon in 1993 and then a full pardon in 1998.

34 Dante41  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:34:01pm

You know, before this broke, I just wanted to sit back and watch Perry and Hutchinson tear each other apart in the primary. Now? I want to see this pompous son of a bitch impeached. He knowingly sent an innocent man to his death, and is trying to cover his ass.

Even if he doesn't get impeached, he isn't going to win the election now.

35 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:34:57pm

re: #31 LudwigVanQuixote

Because the rotten politicians in this case are bible banging Christians.

This is a perfect example of why I don't hold much note for people who deal in mystical G-d thinking, hard to trust them, isn't it?

36 iceweasel  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:34:57pm

re: #20 Killgore Trout

At first it seemed that this story was too far fetched but it looks like it has legs.

They've been trying to quash it. If it gets the coverage it should, not only could it bring down Perry (and he should be brought down for this, absolutely) it could potentially spark a nation-wide rejection of the death penalty.

That's what happened in the UK, for those unfamiliar with the history of the death penalty there. Timothy Evans was wrongly executed for the murder of his wife and daughter, when his neighbour, John Christie, had actually murdered them.

Christie was later revealed to be a serial killer. He had given evidence against Evans that resulted in his hanging.

Cottingham could potentially wind up playing the same role in the US abolition of the death penalty as Evans did in the UK's abolition of it-- the wrongful execution of an innocent man whose death turns the tide of popular sentiment and forces a nationwide reexamination of the issue.

37 Idle Drifter  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:35:11pm

re: #25 avanti

The only way for to be sure that a man is guilty beyond reasonable doubt to be given the death penalty is if that man did something horrible in public and could be readily identified by dozens if not hundreds of witnesses and video cameras.

38 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:35:52pm

re: #21 Sharmuta

Does not matter in this case. Science only plays a role here as far as the forensics are concerned. This is a story of a dirty politician who is attempting a cover up for an action he did. He pushed for the execution, and now he's trying to cover it up. This has little to do with science, and a lot to do with the law and how it was not followed.

39 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:36:40pm

re: #38 Honorary Yooper

Does not matter in this case. Science only plays a role here as far as the forensics are concerned. This is a story of a dirty politician who is attempting a cover up for an action he did. He pushed for the execution, and now he's trying to cover it up. This has little to do with science, and a lot to do with the law and how it was not followed.

IS the fact that he is a Christian important?

40 Dante41  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:38:41pm

re: #39 Walter L. Newton

IS the fact that he is a Christian important?

Not in the least. All that matters is that he has an innocent mans blood on his hands.

41 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:38:51pm

re: #39 Walter L. Newton

IS the fact that he is a Christian important?

IMHO, only (or "perhaps") peripherally

42 John Neverbend  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:39:29pm

re: #32 Jimmah

I think that defending something that is as contrary to reality as creationism forces one into habitual dishonesty. I've only even debated with one honest creationist, and she eventually changed her mind on the issue - lying is second nature to all the others I've ever spoken to or debated with.

It's ironic that one of the more fatuous creationist/ID criticisms of neo-Darwinism is that it leads to a moral vacuum. I never thought in detail about what would be the effects on creationist advocates of their chronic denial of reality, those same advocates who are quick to point the moral finger at neo-Darwinists.

43 avanti  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:39:47pm

re: #33 John Neverbend

Agreed. This is the subject of a British movie, "Let Him Have It". Derek Bentley was hanged in 1953 and granted a partial pardon in 1993 and then a full pardon in 1998.

That probably did not do him much good, but at least gave his family some closure.

44 Guanxi88  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:39:58pm

re: #39 Walter L. Newton

IS the fact that he is a Christian important?

Means he's supposed to know better, and, to my mind, makes him more culpable morally.

45 Jimmah  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:40:04pm

re: #33 John Neverbend

Agreed. This is the subject of a British movie, "Let Him Have It". Derek Bentley was hanged in 1953 and granted a partial pardon in 1993 and then a full pardon in 1998.

There's an Elvis Costello song about that too.

46 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:40:04pm

re: #40 Dante41

re: #41 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Agreed, just asking. It does seem to be a problem for some.

47 DaddyG  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:40:37pm

re: #39 Walter L. Newton

IS the fact that he is a Christian important?

It is at least as important as his race, age, gender and sexual orientation to his decision making process.

48 RogueOne  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:41:11pm

re: #21 Sharmuta

Except this isn't about a politician, perry or otherwise, this about the system in total.

In 2006, Congress charged the National Academy of Sciences with studying the application of forensic science in the U.S. judicial system. Its findings, released last year, are grim. Almost every branch of forensics but DNA testing -- hair and fiber analysis, arson investigations, comparisons of bite marks -- lacks the extensive scientific research and established standards to be used in court conclusively.

[Link: www.latimes.com...]

49 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:41:31pm

re: #44 Guanxi88

Means he's supposed to know better, and, to my mind, makes him more culpable morally.

Being a Christian never gave anyone a upper hand on morals.

50 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:41:33pm

re: #36 iceweasel

Doubtful that he'd play that same role in the US. He might play it for Texas though. The standards and laws vary from state to state (as opposed to the UK where they're more uniform). Recently we had a moratorium on capital punishment in Illinois due to some problems with the system. In addition, the SCOTUS suspended it from 1972 to 1976. Some states lack a statute for capital punishment.

Here's the Wiki on it. It has a nice map showing which states have it, and how many have been performed. Texas leads with the number of executions by far, having about four times as many as the next state, Virginia.

51 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:42:43pm

re: #38 Honorary Yooper

Does not matter in this case. Science only plays a role here as far as the forensics are concerned. This is a story of a dirty politician who is attempting a cover up for an action he did. He pushed for the execution, and now he's trying to cover it up. This has little to do with science, and a lot to do with the law and how it was not followed.

Except he abused his position in regards to the scientific body established to deal with forensics. I had no idea the state executive could hold such power of a body designed to make sure our justice system was working. I think it's another example of not respecting science.

52 Guanxi88  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:42:52pm

re: #49 Walter L. Newton

Being a Christian never gave anyone a upper hand on morals.

It's true enough, but it's frequently invoked as a sort of vouchsafe for morality. It carries the risk to the user, however, of exposing him or her to judgment on the very grounds he or she claims to believe in and uphold.

And I repeat, if the man's a Christian, he's supposed to know better.

53 Dante41  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:44:06pm

re: #52 Guanxi88

It's true enough, but it's frequently invoked as a sort of vouchsafe for morality. It carries the risk to the user, however, of exposing him or her to judgment on the very grounds he or she claims to believe in and uphold.

And I repeat, if the man's a Christian, he's supposed to know better.

Just because he says he is a Christian, it doesn't mean he is. I believe his actions speak for themselves.

54 Guanxi88  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:44:31pm

If he'd man up, as they say, and admit he was dead wrong, and attempt to make amends for this miscarriage of justice, he might just salvage some crap of his dignity. As it is, he's just perpetuated and multiplied his wrong-doing.

55 Guanxi88  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:45:06pm

re: #53 Dante41

Just because he says he is a Christian, it doesn't mean he is. I believe his actions speak for themselves.

That's part of it, too; if you go around laying claim to a particular label, there are responsibilities that come with it.

56 funky chicken  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:45:11pm

I hope Kay Bailey Hutchison kicks Perry's ass. However, as found on another site:

Todd Cameron Willingham confessed to the crime
Todd Cameron Willingham confessed to arson investigators that he poured flammable perfume or Cologne on the floor of the childrens room the night before
Todd Cameron Willingham was on record as telling a story of attempted rescues of his children yet he was shirtless, barefooted and with no burns on his feet nor smoke in his lungs
Todd Cameron Willingham was on record with eyewitnessess to trying to abort the twins by repeatedly kicking his wife in the stomach while pregnant
Todd Cameron Willingham was on record with eyewitnessess trying to trade one or more of his children for electronics
Todd Cameron Willingham was a career violent felon
Todd Cameron Willingham DID manage to push his non working car away from the burning bedroom
Flamable containers of kerosene were found under the porch of the house
The 5th circuit court of Appeals also noted that Willingham tortured his 2 yr old with a lighter to frame her for the fire - she died of smoke inhalation later that day in the hospital

It would appear that the last-minute report may have been information that had been considered and dismissed previously.

57 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:46:21pm

re: #51 Sharmuta

Except he abused his position in regards to the scientific body established to deal with forensics. I had no idea the state executive could hold such power of a body designed to make sure our justice system was working. I think it's another example of not respecting science.

Nothing I say will convince you, Shar, but even one who does respect science would tamper with this body and try to tamper with the evidence when caught. It's a case of a governor not respecting the law.

58 Dante41  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:46:32pm

re: #54 Guanxi88

If he'd man up, as they say, and admit he was dead wrong, and attempt to make amends for this miscarriage of justice, he might just salvage some crap of his dignity. As it is, he's just perpetuated and multiplied his wrong-doing.

I disagree. If he manned up, he would stop sinking lower. Without a trial, he cannot regain any that he has lost.

59 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:46:38pm

re: #28 John Neverbend

I was going to raise this. Was there ever a case in Talmud where, for example, the Sanhedrin ruled incorrectly on a death sentence and an innocent person was executed? Is any remedy set down? I know that there are discussions about incorrect rulings of the Sanhedrin, but I don't recall if they include capital punishment.

Actually there is a tremendously moving and painful story about just that.

Capital cases back in the day were decided by 23 judges. ON one case, one judge was a hold out in a deadlock. He finally was swayed and voted to convict and hence execute.

New evidence came forward. The man was innocent.

The Rabbi, left the Sanhedrin, took the executed man's family into his home and provided for them and then went to the man's grave every day for the rest of his life.

The fact is that If a Beit Din executed more than twice in a ten year period, it was called a court of murderers and disbanded. The assumption being that since the rules of evidence were so very strict in order to convict, there had to be a fix.

Capital punishment was on the books, but rather than being seen as a gleeful thing to be cheered about or made into a public sport, like we do in America, it was seen as a grievous stain on the whole community that things had ever come to such a point in Israel.

Consider why we repent for sins of the community that we ourselves did not commit on Yom Kippur.

60 iceweasel  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:46:59pm

re: #50 Honorary Yooper

Doubtful that he'd play that same role in the US. He might play it for Texas though. The standards and laws vary from state to state (as opposed to the UK where they're more uniform). Recently we had a moratorium on capital punishment in Illinois due to some problems with the system. In addition, the SCOTUS suspended it from 1972 to 1976. Some states lack a statute for capital punishment.

Here's the Wiki on it. It has a nice map showing which states have it, and how many have been performed. Texas leads with the number of executions by far, having about four times as many as the next state, Virginia.

Texas loves the death penalty. I don't know if they'll get rid of it -- but this case could help change national sentiment about it.

Let's also remember that Illinois had to completely declare a moratorium on the death penalty in 2000 and commute the sentences of everyone on death row because there had been so many wrongful convictions-- 17, IIRC.

61 keloyd  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:47:25pm

If I had the choice of being:
1. wrongly accused and sentenced to death in a few years, or
2. wrongly accused and spend my life (40+ years) in prison, I would prefer the quicker exit.

62 Jimmah  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:47:36pm

re: #42 John Neverbend

It's ironic that one of the more fatuous creationist/ID criticisms of neo-Darwinism is that it leads to a moral vacuum. I never thought in detail about what would be the effects on creationist advocates of their chronic denial of reality, those same advocates who are quick to point the moral finger at neo-Darwinists.

Yes - it's really a case of projection. And once you have mastered the art of denying/ignoring one set of facts, it must be easy to do the same with others you aren't happy with.

63 Stanghazi  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:47:48pm

re: #56 funky chicken

What other site did this info come from? I've read about this case, and thought that this was a very circumstantial case without the failed arson report.

64 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:48:09pm

re: #57 Honorary Yooper

Nothing I say will convince you, Shar, but even one who does respect science would tamper with this body and try to tamper with the evidence when caught. It's a case of a governor not respecting the law.

Interesting- why do you think I need convincing you're right? I haven't said you're wrong at all. I don't disagree with you about corrupt politicians, I just think there's an added element when they're anti-science.

65 iceweasel  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:48:49pm

re: #56 funky chicken

I hope Kay Bailey Hutchison kicks Perry's ass. However, as found on another site:

It would appear that the last-minute report may have been information that had been considered and dismissed previously.

There are three scientific reports conclusively establishing that he was innocent.

66 Dante41  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:49:24pm

re: #60 iceweasel

Texas loves the death penalty. I don't know if they'll get rid of it -- but this case could help change national sentiment about it.

Let's also remember that Illinois had to completely declare a moratorium on the death penalty in 2000 and commute the sentences of everyone on death row because there had been so many wrongful convictions-- 17, IIRC.

I don't know. While this won't get rid of the Texas death penalty, I think that it will slow it down. This is really going to kill a lot of people who are advocating the death penalty arguments. (no pun intended)

67 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:50:35pm

re: #60 iceweasel

Yes, I mentioned the moratorium we had here in Illinois imposed by former (now convicted) Governor George Ryan. His reasons for doing so are suspect however as the governor who did it was already under investigation for a licenses for bribes scandal (CDLs were being sold to finance his campaign fund) when he imposed the moratorium.

68 funky chicken  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:51:06pm
By execution day, Perry was Willingham's last chance. The 5th Circuit Court of Appeals had rejected a reprieve, calling the arson expert's report “no more than an opinion.”

From the Chronicle article.

Why is Perry acting like a weasel? Why do all of these politicians seem to act like weasels instead of just walking up to a camera and forcefully presenting facts. Perry could say "my advisors and I agreed with the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals that the new report contained no new information that would dictate clemency. I stand by my decision, and please be assured that I take my duties seriously."

Instead we always get the ducking and weaving from politicians, which only adds to the illusion of guilt and to the image of their arrogance and foolishness.

69 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:51:59pm

re: #64 Sharmuta

Interesting- why do you think I need convincing you're right? I haven't said you're wrong at all. I don't disagree with you about corrupt politicians, I just think there's an added element when they're anti-science.

You kept pushing the anti-science angle when that probably has less to do with it than a cover up for Perry's pushing for the execution. Science has little do to with this one.

70 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:53:27pm

re: #46 Walter L. Newton

re: #41 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Agreed, just asking. It does seem to be a problem for some.

I figured that was what you were doing.
I agree.

71 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:55:37pm

re: #56 funky chicken

I respectfully suggest you seek another source to back up those points.

72 Sharmuta  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:56:19pm

re: #69 Honorary Yooper

You kept pushing the anti-science angle when that probably has less to do with it than a cover up for Perry's pushing for the execution. Science has little do to with this one.

Because I think the anti-science angle works against the party once again in this case. Sure- people will see it's political, but they'll also see yet another republican with an anti-science bias. Because this involved a man's death- it's going to look ugly to people.

73 iceweasel  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 12:57:56pm

re: #67 Honorary Yooper

Yes, I mentioned the moratorium we had here in Illinois imposed by former (now convicted) Governor George Ryan. His reasons for doing so are suspect however as the governor who did it was already under investigation for a licenses for bribes scandal (CDLs were being sold to finance his campaign fund) when he imposed the moratorium.



Not at all.
He imposed the moratorium because he'd been forced to release 13 of the men on death row because they were innocent. Not merely wrongfully convicted-- innocent.

That's a good reason for concluding the system is broken, no matter what scandals you're embroiled in. In this case, he did the right thing. And he'd been pro-death penalty before, and this move did NOT win him friends in IL.

74 Dante41  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 1:01:11pm

re: #72 Sharmuta

Because I think the anti-science angle works against the party once again in this case. Sure- people will see it's political, but they'll also see yet another republican with an anti-science bias. Because this involved a man's death- it's going to look ugly to people.

No it won't. The fact that Perry is a Creationist moron has nothing to do with this man's execution. They are completely separate.

75 funky chicken  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 1:01:19pm
Bassett had told reporters the commission's report would focus on forensics and not decide Willingham's guilt or innocence. He said he had not made up his mind about the case; it was possible, he said, that both sides in the death penalty debate could be dissatisfied with the commission's final report.

Bassett sounds like a decent guy, and one who was looking to improve forensics use for the future. Perry was stupid to can him, especially right now.

I've got no love for Perry (understatement of the year) but I see no evidence that Willingham was "proven innocent" by science.

Again:

"The 5th Circuit Court of Appeals had rejected a reprieve, calling the arson expert's report “no more than an opinion.”

Perry wasn't the only one who saw no reason to act to stop this execution. It's sad that he somehow seems incapable of addressing the issue head-on, but all politicians do this crap when they are criticized.

76 dugmartsch  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 1:03:23pm

re: #15 Jimmah

It's not.

And if Anton "innocence doesn't matter in post trial appeals" Scalia doesn't see that putting these decisions in the hands of elected officials is a bad idea at this point, not sure what he needs to convince him.

77 RogueOne  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 1:04:10pm

re: #65 iceweasel

That isn't quite accurate. What Beyler found was that:

the report concludes there was no evidence to determine that the December 1991 fire was even set, and it leaves open the possibility the blaze that killed three children was an accident and there was no crime at all


[Link: archives.chicagotribune.com...]

Doesn't mean he didn't do it, only that the standards used by the local firemarshal were woefully inadequate to establish the evidence needed to execute someone.

The other part that bothers me about this case is the jailhouse informant which I don't think are ever reliable. Still, there isn't anything out there than can prove he DIDN'T do it but there is plenty of evidence showing no one can prove he did it.

The state fire marshal on the case, Beyler concluded in his report, had “limited understanding” of fire science. The fire marshal “seems to be wholly without any realistic understanding of fires and how fire injuries are created,” he wrote.

The marshal’s findings, he added, “are nothing more than a collection of personal beliefs that have nothing to do with science-based fire investigation.”

78 Jooly  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 1:09:20pm

It's difficult to post in two different threads.

This commission was formed in 2005 with Willingham as the first order of business. Yet, here it is 4 years later and they aren't even close to being finished. Someone should light a fire under them.

And once again, Beyler submitted a report. He has not been examined on it and the fire marshall has not had an opportunity to respond. Those of you claiming that the issue is settled are no different than those who find a defendant guilty before listing to cross examination of the state witnesses and before hearing from the defense witnesses.

79 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 1:09:23pm

re: #75 funky chicken

I see no evidence that Willingham was "proven innocent" by science

The following is a long (but thorough) article.
Stick with it to the later pages.

Trial by Fire ... Did Texas execute an innocent man?
by David Grann
The New Yorker
Sept. 7th

80 iceweasel  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 1:10:20pm

re: #79 pre-Boomer Marine brat

The following is a long (but thorough) article.
Stick with it to the later pages.

Trial by Fire ... Did Texas execute an innocent man?
by David Grann
The New Yorker
Sept. 7th

Thanks for posting that again. That's really what everyone needs to read.

81 funky chicken  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 1:10:35pm

re: #71 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I respectfully suggest you seek another source to back up those points.

[Link: www.corsicanadailysun.com...]

There ya go. For what it's worth...

I think the guy was a creep extraordinaire, and may or may not have been guilty of this crime.

I also think its a damn shame that the investigation was impacted by Perry's meddling, because it's a good idea to examine and update forensic science that is/was used in serious cases so mistakes won't be repeated in the future.

83 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 1:11:56pm

re: #80 iceweasel

Thanks for posting that again. That's really what everyone needs to read.

Wanted to ask in the earlier thread -- were you the one who originally posted it?

84 Jooly  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 1:14:23pm

re: #79 pre-Boomer Marine brat

The following is a long (but thorough) article.
Stick with it to the later pages.

Trial by Fire ... Did Texas execute an innocent man?
by David Grann
The New Yorker
Sept. 7th

Again, Grann's article contains facts that contradict those in Beyler's report or in the current fire marshall report, both of which were based on the trial trial transcript. Also, his claim that a witness received special consideration to testify against Willingham is false. Grann is not a source to be relied on.

85 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 1:15:47pm

re: #81 funky chicken

[Link: www.corsicanadailysun.com...]

There ya go. For what it's worth...

I think the guy was a creep extraordinaire, and may or may not have been guilty of this crime.

I also think its a damn shame that the investigation was impacted by Perry's meddling, because it's a good idea to examine and update forensic science that is/was used in serious cases so mistakes won't be repeated in the future.

I agree with the "for what it's worth. The citation at the end puts a huge question-mark upon it in my eyes.

John H. Jackson, Sr. Judge, 13th Judicial District. Jackson was one of the prosecutors for Navarro County in the Cameron Todd Willingham case

86 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 1:17:44pm

re: #84 Jooly

Again, Grann's article contains facts that contradict those in Beyler's report or in the current fire marshall report, both of which were based on the trial trial transcript. Also, his claim that a witness received special consideration to testify against Willingham is false. Grann is not a source to be relied on.

What's your bottom line?
That Willingham was guilty, as charged and as prosecuted?

87 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 1:18:02pm

re: #56 funky chicken

Really, I'm curious where you got that from? it looks like the same lies and misinformation put forth by the prosecutor a few weeks ago.

That confession, made to someone in jail who said later that maybe he *misunderstood* Willingham and that jail makes you 'kinda crazy' was let out of prison early by the prosecutor.

Yeah... Some confession.

88 funky chicken  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 1:22:40pm

From the New Yorker:

After Hurst had reviewed Fogg and Vasquez’s list of more than twenty arson indicators, he believed that only one had any potential validity: the positive test for mineral spirits by the threshold of the front door. But why had the fire investigators obtained a positive reading only in that location? According to Fogg and Vasquez’s theory of the crime, Willingham had poured accelerant throughout the children’s bedroom and down the hallway. Officials had tested extensively in these areas—including where all the pour patterns and puddle configurations were—and turned up nothing. Jackson told me that he “never did understand why they weren’t able to recover” positive tests in these parts.
Hurst found it hard to imagine Willingham pouring accelerant on the front porch, where neighbors could have seen him. Scanning the files for clues, Hurst noticed a photograph of the porch taken before the fire, which had been entered into evidence. Sitting on the tiny porch was a charcoal grill. The porch was where the family barbecued. Court testimony from witnesses confirmed that there had been a grill, along with a container of lighter fluid, and that both had burned when the fire roared onto the porch during post-flashover. By the time Vasquez inspected the house, the grill had been removed from the porch, during cleanup. Though he cited the container of lighter fluid in his report, he made no mention of the grill. At the trial, he insisted that he had never been told of the grill’s earlier placement. Other authorities were aware of the grill but did not see its relevance. Hurst, however, was convinced that he had solved the mystery: when firefighters had blasted the porch with water, they had likely spread charcoal-lighter fluid from the melted container.

Bolded part: perhaps reasonable doubt, but not "scientific PROOF of innocence."

Italicized part: unbelievably poor investigative work. Where was the grill?

Is Fire Marshall an elected official or political appointee in Corsicana? One would hope that the Fire Marshall would be hired based upon expertise.

89 Jooly  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 1:23:06pm

The two year old was found lying face down in his bed and had the sheet
pulled up around her shoulders.

90 Jooly  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 1:25:26pm

"Fireman Franks also said that after the fire, Mr. Willingham came back to his
house and poured a large bottle of British Sterling cologne on the floor from
the bathroom to the room in which the twins had died and said that if any
more samples were taken from the floor, those samples would have cologne
on them."

91 Jooly  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 1:27:14pm

"Remarkably, Mr. Willingham also told his mother-inlaw
that the firemen had found 'unusual marks on Amber's neck and guessed
that they would say that he choked her and let her bum up.'"

92 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 1:28:09pm

This man's three daughters died in a house fire right before Christmas and then he was executed on a wrongful conviction of setting that fire? Wow.

93 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 1:29:06pm

re: #89 Jooly

re: #90 Jooly

re: #91 Jooly

We're getting the idea.

/I'm gone

94 Jooly  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 1:34:40pm

re: #87 bloodstar

Really, I'm curious where you got that from? it looks like the same lies and misinformation put forth by the prosecutor a few weeks ago.

That confession, made to someone in jail who said later that maybe he *misunderstood* Willingham and that jail makes you 'kinda crazy' was let out of prison early by the prosecutor.

Yeah... Some confession.

Years later, when Webb had a parole hearing, he asked the DA to testify on his behalf. That is not being let out "early by the prosecutor" and that is not receiving special consideration in exchange for testimony. Grann is full of shit on many of his facts.

95 Jooly  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 1:36:13pm

re: #93 pre-Boomer Marine brat

re: #90 Jooly

re: #91 Jooly

We're getting the idea.

/I'm gone

A kangaroo court motivated by bias, NO MATTER WHAT THE SIDE, is injustice. I've got yours and others idea, too.

96 Jooly  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 1:47:31pm

re: #88 funky chicken

From the New Yorker:

Bolded part: perhaps reasonable doubt, but not "scientific PROOF of innocence."

Italicized part: unbelievably poor investigative work. Where was the grill?

Is Fire Marshall an elected official or political appointee in Corsicana? One would hope that the Fire Marshall would be hired based upon expertise.

There was no evidence that the grill was ever used on the porch. It only came up as a hypothetical question by the defense atty. There was no evidence that the grill was on the porch during the fire. There was no evidence that the grill was moved while they fought the fire. Once again, Grann is making up his own facts.

97 Jooly  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 1:48:48pm

re: #92 SanFranciscoZionist

This man's three daughters died in a house fire right before Christmas and then he was executed on a wrongful conviction of setting that fire? Wow.

No.

98 Jooly  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 1:49:52pm

Okay, I'm out of here. It's a waste of my time to refer to trial facts.

99 Joven  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 2:25:09pm

OOPS, Sorry make that 14 year, thanks for the correction.

100 iceweasel  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 2:33:13pm

re: #83 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Wanted to ask in the earlier thread -- were you the one who originally posted it?

Possibly. I know I posted it a while ago, but it's been percolating through the media as this story gained traction, so I wouldn't be surprised if other lizards posted it as well over the last 2 months. LVQ has been following the story too, so he might have.
The new yorker article is from early Sept IIRC; I didn't post about it here until a couple of weeks ago, I think. So someone probably beat me to it.

101 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 2:58:23pm

re: #88 funky chicken

From the New Yorker:

Bolded part: perhaps reasonable doubt, but not "scientific PROOF of innocence."

Italicized part: unbelievably poor investigative work. Where was the grill?

Is Fire Marshall an elected official or political appointee in Corsicana? One would hope that the Fire Marshall would be hired based upon expertise.

That's the whole point, isn't it? From three sentences, you are confident that reasonable doubt exists. Anyone governer who takes their duties seriously ought to use their discretion and at least make damn sure their state was doing the right thing. An honest governer comes out on top either way: he reprieves an innocent - he's a hero. He exposes the new facts to the light of day and they only reinforce the original verdict - well, the governer was fair and acted in the interest of justice.

Just my opinion, but I think Perry is more interested in his cowboy image than to piddle around with such things as truth and justice.

102 RogueOne  Tue, Oct 13, 2009 3:20:21pm

re: #101 negativ


Just my opinion, but I think Perry is more interested in his cowboy image than to piddle around with such things as truth and justice.

I disagree. This kind of thing is systematic. VA just tried to put a needle in Ryan Frederick when they had to know the evidence didn't point to an intentional cop killing. There are prosecutors everywhere much more interested in their conviction rate than being concerned with actual "justice". This governor is just doing what they all do, putting the protection of their judicial systems before their concern for "criminals".


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