The Copenhagen Diagnosis

Environment • Views: 3,636

Twenty-six climatologists from around the world have released a new report in advance of the Copenhagen climate summit titled The Copenhagen Diagnosis, with startling findings based on the latest peer-reviewed research, suggesting that sea levels are rising much faster than even the IPCC has projected.

The executive summary of the report is more than a little alarming:

Surging greenhouse gas emissions: Global carbon dioxide emissions from fossil fuels in 2008 were nearly 40% higher than those in 1990. Even if global emission rates are stabilized at present –day levels, just 20 more years of emissions would give a 25% probability that warming exceeds 2oC. Even with zero emissions after 2030. Every year of delayed action increase the chances of exceeding 2oC warming.

Recent global temperatures demonstrate human-based warming: Over the past 25 years temperatures have increased at a rate of 0.190C per decade, in every good agreement with predictions based on greenhouse gas increases. Even over the past ten years, despite a decrease in solar forcing, the trend continues to be one of warming. Natural, short- term fluctuations are occurring as usual but there have been no significant changes in the underlying warming trend.

Acceleration of melting of ice-sheets, glaciers and ice-caps: A wide array of satellite and ice measurements now demonstrate beyond doubt that both the Greenland and Antarctic ice-sheets are losing mass at an increasing rate. Melting of glaciers and ice-caps in other parts of the world has also accelerated since 1990.

Rapid Arctic sea-ice decline: Summer-time melting of Arctic sea-ice has accelerated far beyond the expectations of climate models. This area of sea-ice melt during 2007-2009 was about 40% greater than the average prediction from IPCC AR4 climate models.

Current sea-level rise underestimates: Satellites show great global average sea-level rise (3.4 mm/yr over the past 15 years) to be 80% above past IPCC predictions. This acceleration in sea-level rise is consistent with a doubling in contribution from melting of glaciers, ice caps and the Greenland and West-Antarctic ice-sheets.

Sea-level prediction revised: By 2100, global sea-level is likely to rise at least twice as much as projected by Working Group 1 of the IPCC AR4, for unmitigated emissions it may well exceed 1 meter. The upper limit has been estimated as – 2 meters sea-level rise by 2100. Sea-level will continue to rise for centuries after global temperature have been stabilized and several meters of sea level rise must be expected over the next few centuries.

Delay in action risks irreversible damage: Several vulnerable elements in the climate system (e.g. continental ice-sheets. Amazon rainforest, West African monsoon and others) could be pushed towards abrupt or irreversible change if warming continues in a business-as-usual way throughout this century. The risk of transgressing critical thresholds (“tipping points”) increase strongly with ongoing climate change. Thus waiting for higher levels of scientific certainty could mean that some tipping points will be crossed before they are recognized.

The turning point must come soon: If global warming is to be limited to a maximum of 2oC above pre-industrial values, global emissions need to peak between 2015 and 2020 and then decline rapidly. To stabilize climate, a decarbonized global society – with near-zero emissions of CO2 and other long-lived greenhouse gases – need to be reached well within this century. More specifically, the average annual per-capita emissions will have to shrink to well under 1 metric ton CO2 by 2050. This is 80-90% below the per-capita emissions in developed nations in 2000.

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750 comments
1 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:03:28pm
Sea-level prediction revised: By 2100, global sea-level is likely to rise at least twice as much as projected by Working Group 1 of the IPCC AR4, for unmitigated emissions it may well exceed 1 meter. The upper limit has been estimated as – 2 meters sea-level rise by 2100. Sea-level will continue to rise for centuries after global temperature have been stabilized and several meters of sea level rise must be expected over the next few centuries.

That's 6 and a half feet, Folks.

2 brookly red  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:03:56pm

/how come if I leave my drink on the bar & the ice cubes melt the glass dosen't overflow?

3 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:04:23pm

re: #2 brookly red

This is ice on land, not on water. Key difference.

4 Racer X  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:04:44pm

re: #1 Sharmuta

That's 6 and a half feet, Folks.

Didn't someone else recently predict a 27 foot rise?

5 Right Brain  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:05:08pm

How unfortunate that their working papers were hacked, shedding doubt on the scientific basis of these conclusions.

6 brookly red  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:05:26pm

re: #3 Sharmuta

This is ice on land, not on water. Key difference.

that could change things...

7 Racer X  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:06:18pm

I do not see humans turning off all CO2 emitting devices TOMORROW. Get used to more ocean.

8 Cato the Elder  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:07:11pm

As to the last two sentences:

Who among those here who think that AGW is gonna kill us all and we have to do something nownownow or else we're all gonna die is here, today, right now, in writing, willing to commit to reducing your personal carbon footprint by 80-90% in the shortest possible time, but no later than by 2050? Oh, forget 2050, that's the outside date set by the Copenhagen hand-sitters. A real eco-mensch should be willing to shoot for 2020.

So, put it on the line. Personally. LVQ? MacSpiff? Allegra? Don't tell me about societal changes and nuclear plants or someday buying a hybrid or washing your damn dishes by hand. You must be the change you wish to see in the world, according to Gandhi. So? When do you give up your cars, teevees, plane rides, out-of-season produce, synthetic anything, plastics (including computers and mobile phones and digital cameras), modern health care, books, magazines, CDs, DVDs, and the rest?

I want signatures.

9 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:07:38pm

re: #5 Right Brain

There is no doubt on these conclusions. Scientists from all over the world have confirmed AGW for some time now, based on their own data and the data of countless other scientists.

10 Cato the Elder  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:08:10pm

re: #1 Sharmuta

That's 6 and a half feet, Folks.

Eh.

11 ali mentary  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:08:22pm

Overnight pictures of Charles are surely getting a big Boost. :D

12 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:08:26pm

...and I'm sure the only solution to save us from ourselves is more governmental say-so in what kind of TV's, cars or light bulbs we can buy.

13 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:08:49pm

re: #11 ali mentary

Huh?

14 brookly red  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:10:19pm

re: #7 Racer X

I do not see humans turning off all CO2 emitting devices TOMORROW. Get used to more ocean.

more ocean? does that mean more sushi? I love sushi.

15 cliffster  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:10:49pm

re: #7 Racer X

I do not see humans turning off all CO2 emitting devices TOMORROW. Get used to more ocean.

Ain't that the sad truth.

16 Right Brain  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:11:01pm

re: #9 Sharmuta

There is no doubt on these conclusions. Scientists from all over the world have confirmed AGW for some time now, based on their own data and the data of countless other scientists.

Perhaps there is no doubt in your mind, but doubt about AGW among the population at large is actually increasing, worldwide.

[Link: www.spiegel.de...]

17 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:12:04pm

re: #14 brookly red

It means more jellyfish. The fishing industry is being hit hard.

18 TimO  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:12:26pm

Return to medieval serfdom?
(yea, maybe for you and me, but the Lords including Al Gore in his 200ft houseboat, Learjet and 50times more carbon footprint than the rest of us will continue to live in castles lording over us 'little people')

No thanks. I don't buy it...

19 brookly red  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:12:29pm

re: #7 Racer X

I do not see humans turning off all CO2 emitting devices TOMORROW. Get used to more ocean.

wait, I AM a CO2 emmittig device...

20 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:12:32pm

re: #16 Right Brain

Perhaps there is no doubt in your mind, but doubt about AGW among the population at large is actually increasing, worldwide.

[Link: www.spiegel.de...]

Science isn't decided by Gallup.

21 ryannon  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:12:37pm

re: #14 brookly red

more ocean? does that mean more sushi? I love sushi.

It means more dead-zones in the oceans.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

22 allegro  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:12:45pm

re: #14 brookly red

more ocean? does that mean more sushi? I love sushi.

Sorry. Overfishing, etc. is depleting fish populations at a shocking rate.

23 Cato the Elder  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:13:00pm

re: #12 Fenway_Nation

...and I'm sure the only solution to save us from ourselves is more governmental say-so in what kind of TV's, cars or light bulbs we can buy.

No. The aim now is the budgetary approach. As stated in the summary, by 2050 every man, woman and child will be limited to one metric ton of CO2 per annum. Those who use more will be obliged to pay those who use less.

How that is expected to solve the problem is beyond me, but the real issue is that in the aggregate there is no way in hell the developed and most especially the developing nations will reduce their standards of living by 80-90%. I goes against human nature. It will not happen without global eco-fascism or -communism, or both.

24 jaunte  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:13:22pm

The rise in ocean level may be less of a concern than the possible effect on the Gulf Stream from Greenland melt water.
[Link: www.sciencedaily.com...]

25 cliffster  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:13:40pm

Opinion polls on scientific veracity. How very illogical.

26 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:13:42pm

re: #16 Right Brain

Wasn't the 1-2 punch of hurricanes Katrina and Rita supposed to be a sign of things to come thanks to AGW? IIRC, the last super-mega-ultra hurricane to hit the USA was Ika last fall...and that was pretty much the only significant hurricane of the season.

27 Obdicut  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:14:45pm

re: #8 Cato the Elder

As to the last two sentences:

Who among those here who think that AGW is gonna kill us all and we have to do something nownownow or else we're all gonna die is here, today, right now, in writing, willing to commit to reducing your personal carbon footprint by 80-90% in the shortest possible time, but no later than by 2050? Oh, forget 2050, that's the outside date set by the Copenhagen hand-sitters. A real eco-mensch should be willing to shoot for 2020.

So, put it on the line. Personally. LVQ? MacSpiff? Allegra? Don't tell me about societal changes and nuclear plants or someday buying a hybrid or washing your damn dishes by hand. You must be the change you wish to see in the world, according to Gandhi. So? When do you give up your cars, teevees, plane rides, out-of-season produce, synthetic anything, plastics (including computers and mobile phones and digital cameras), modern health care, books, magazines, CDs, DVDs, and the rest?

I want signatures.

That's rather a silly question. What if people have already given up a lot in order to reduce their carbon footprint? They need to give up more?

I'm willing to give up a lot of things: the enormous amount of packaging that comes with nearly every product I buy, non-local foods, new clothes, traveling home for Christmas, my own car.

The thing is, I already do those things, I've already given them up. I'm also privileged that I can do many things like that, because I'm at a far higher income level than the average US citizen. Right now, it's hard to both economize and buy things that are the best or even a good choice for the environment.

What we need to do is make being green cheap and affordable. This is a solution that can only be provided through private industry and a cultural change. Government can help to lead the way, but it will take private industry, as always, to accomplish most of these goals.

28 brookly red  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:15:00pm

re: #22 allegro

Sorry. Overfishing, etc. is depleting fish populations at a shocking rate.

fish farming is OK w/me & has a very small carbon foot print too...

29 ryannon  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:15:07pm

re: #21 ryannon

It means more dead-zones in the oceans.

An even better link, courtesy of NASA:

[Link: disc.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov...]

30 Racer X  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:16:13pm

Humans = BAD!

I get it now.

31 cliffster  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:16:56pm

re: #28 brookly red

fish farming is OK w/me & has a very small carbon foot print too...

But results in fish with higher mercury & other toxin levels. Which really sucks. It's like the cards are stacked against us.

32 Obdicut  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:17:03pm

re: #23 Cato the Elder

How that is expected to solve the problem is beyond me, but the real issue is that in the aggregate there is no way in hell the developed and most especially the developing nations will reduce their standards of living by 80-90%. I goes against human nature. It will not happen without global eco-fascism or -communism, or both.

You don't have to reduce standard of living in order to reduce the use of energy. It's just a technical challenge. A very significant one, but a technical challenge.

And humans are pretty good at technical challenges.

33 Bagua  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:17:23pm

re: #9 Sharmuta

There is no doubt on these conclusions. Scientists from all over the world have confirmed AGW for some time now, based on their own data and the data of countless other scientists.

That is incorrect, there is most definitely some doubt. Read the papers, no real scientist claims 100% certainty when the underlying peer reviewed papers clearly state the degree of uncertainty.

34 Cato the Elder  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:17:47pm

re: #19 brookly red

wait, I AM a CO2 emmittig device...

As I said on the last thread:

The surest, fastest, cheapest way to stop anthropogenic anything would be to kill as many anthropous as possible. Once the hysteria grows great enough and our total impotence to control the climate becomes plain, we will see that happen.

35 Obdicut  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:17:58pm

re: #31 cliffster

But results in fish with higher mercury & other toxin levels. Which really sucks. It's like the cards are stacked against us.

As 99.9% of all species that ever lived will tell you, survival in the long term is a very difficult challenge.

36 brookly red  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:18:22pm

re: #31 cliffster

But results in fish with higher mercury & other toxin levels. Which really sucks. It's like the cards are stacked against us.

uhhh, sea water is sea water... how do you figure that?

37 Right Brain  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:20:33pm

re: #20 Sharmuta

Science isn't decided by Gallup.

And on that you are dead wrong. Of course it is, practically. Otherwise this would have been a done deal half a century ago. Personally I think its anti-intellectualism that protects us from early bogus conclusions.

38 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:20:39pm

re: #4 Racer X

Didn't someone else recently predict a 27 foot rise?

Same difference.

39 ryannon  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:21:00pm

re: #30 Racer X

Humans = BAD!

I get it now.

I don't agree: in general, we've always tried to do our best.

But sometimes our best is just not good enough.

40 cliffster  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:21:23pm

re: #36 brookly red

uhhh, sea water is sea water... how do you figure that?

Well, I figure that because they've measured the levels in fish from the different sources and that's what the numbers say. As for why, I read it's because they part of the food they feed fish is chopped up fish. Ew, fishabalism. And that increases concentrations of toxins.

41 Bagua  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:22:02pm

How Inconvenient that the list of contributing authors contains Michael Mann.

42 SixDegrees  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:22:31pm

re: #33 Bagua

That is incorrect, there is most definitely some doubt. Read the papers, no real scientist claims 100% certainty when the underlying peer reviewed papers clearly state the degree of uncertainty.

I'd point out that the report cited, itself, is a monument to uncertainty, with the authors stating flat out that they failed to predict current trends and that their models are obviously flawed. It's right there at the top of the thread in plain English.

43 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:23:04pm

re: #37 Right Brain

And on that you are dead wrong. Of course it is, practically. Otherwise this would have been a done deal half a century ago. Personally I think its anti-intellectualism that protects us from early bogus conclusions.

Wow, that's good. Anti-intellectualism protects us from the early bogus conclusions of science. Right Wrong Brain.

44 brookly red  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:23:05pm

re: #40 cliffster

Well, I figure that because they've measured the levels in fish from the different sources and that's what the numbers say. As for why, I read it's because they part of the food they feed fish is chopped up fish. Ew, fishabalism. And that increases concentrations of toxins.

uhhh don't big fish eat little fish in the wild?

45 FigJam  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:23:33pm

re: #32 Obdicut

You don't have to reduce standard of living in order to reduce the use of energy. It's just a technical challenge. A very significant one, but a technical challenge.

And humans are pretty good at technical challenges.

But to quote the summary "global emissions need to peak between 2015 and 2020 and then decline rapidly". It is doubtful that technology can rise to this challenge within this alarmist timeframe. Therefore, it would seem that the only way comply with this timeframe would be draconian, enforced reductions in our standard of living.

46 J.S.  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:23:47pm

re: #37 Right Brain

I find your comment pretty much incoherent. You think science (or scientific findings) are based on popularity or opinion polls? (to claim that X is true because lots of people believe it -- that's fallacious reasoning.)

47 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:23:59pm

re: #41 Bagua

How Inconvenient that the list of contributing authors contains Michael Mann.

An inconvenient truth?

//

48 cliffster  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:24:44pm

re: #44 brookly red

uhhh don't big fish eat little fish in the wild?

Yep, and big fishies have higher levels of toxins. Are you aware that you say "uhhh" before a lot of the things you say? That's a verbal crutch, you should work on that. :)

49 ryannon  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:24:50pm

re: #34 Cato the Elder

As I said on the last thread:

The surest, fastest, cheapest way to stop anthropogenic anything would be to kill as many anthropous as possible. Once the hysteria grows great enough and our total impotence to control the climate becomes plain, we will see that happen.

You mean that hasn't been happening all through the twentieth and twenty-first centuries?

50 phrogdriver  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:24:54pm

Did you write peer-reviewed with a straight face? In case no one told you the man made global warming hoax has been exposed for all to see. Their scary reports are now laughable. Since you believers never gave up anything anyway, what difference do all their reports make?

51 Cato the Elder  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:25:35pm

re: #27 Obdicut

I'm willing to give up a lot of things: the enormous amount of packaging that comes with nearly every product I buy, non-local foods, new clothes, traveling home for Christmas, my own car.

I'm willing do do without the needless packaging.

The rest you can pry out of my cold, dead hands. Same goes for air conditioning in a hot and humid hell like Baltimore.

When Al Gore gives up his lifestyle for mine, maybe I'll think about giving up mine for yours. If I can afford it, for, as you so truly note, it's only the rich who can buy politically-ecologically correct products all the time.

And by the way, if we all ate nothing but local stuff, a lot of us would die of scurvy. No citrus groves where I live. Not to mention that without global trade in foodstuffs of all kinds, the economy would collapse.

I don't want to live in one of Ted Kaczynski's "small groups" and subsist on roots and tubers, not even to save the bloody old planet. The bloody old planet will have to save itself without my help.

Unless, of course, you can get the eco-police to come and make me toe the line.

52 jaunte  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:26:11pm

re: #49 ryannon

Norman Borlaug managed to postpone things for a while.

53 drogheda  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:26:12pm

re: #44 brookly red

Yes. Yes they do. And the very top end predators on the fishy food chain accumulate high levels of mercury and other toxins because they eat lots and lots of little fish that have been accumulating their own mercury and other toxins thus concentrating it.

54 Cato the Elder  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:26:14pm

re: #49 ryannon

You mean that hasn't been happening all through the twentieth and twenty-first centuries?

Apparently not fast enough for Gaia.

55 brookly red  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:26:25pm

re: #48 cliffster

Yep, and big fishies have higher levels of toxins. Are you aware that you say "uhhh" before a lot of the things you say? That's a verbal crutch, you should work on that. :)

uhhh, is a polite way of saying yeah right...

56 Right Brain  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:26:34pm

re: #26 Fenway_Nation

Wasn't the 1-2 punch of hurricanes Katrina and Rita supposed to be a sign of things to come thanks to AGW? IIRC, the last super-mega-ultra hurricane to hit the USA was Ika last fall...and that was pretty much the only significant hurricane of the season.

I grew up in New Orleans so am pretty keen on Katrina, but not Rita. Katrina came ashore as a Cat III, compare that to 1969 Camille that was a solid Cat V. It was the new levee system along the industrial canal that failed and drowned the city. Pointedly Katrina never hit the city.

57 ryannon  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:27:27pm

re: #54 Cato the Elder

Apparently not fast enough for Gaia.

You're confusing Gaia with Kali.

But I get you mean.

58 Obdicut  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:27:43pm

re: #45 FigJam

But to quote the summary "global emissions need to peak between 2015 and 2020 and then decline rapidly". It is doubtful that technology can rise to this challenge within this alarmist timeframe. Therefore, it would seem that the only way comply with this timeframe would be draconian, enforced reductions in our standard of living.

Well, I doubt any such draconian, enforced reductions would be politically possible.

At this point, I'm putting my faith in scientists and engineers to develop new technologies to reduce energy usage, and direct pallative solutions (though those will doubtless have problems of their own.) But I'm not incredibly optimistic. I think at this point some climate change, and the associated trillions upon trillions of dollars of costs, will occur.

Then we will see great reduction in our standards of living. But it won't be from a draconian sorce, but it will definitely be enforced by the second law of thermodynamics.

However, rather than reflect on such a dismal future, I'm trying to do my best-- in the very, very limited way I can-- to push solutions forward.

59 brookly red  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:27:52pm

re: #53 drogheda

Yes. Yes they do. And the very top end predators on the fishy food chain accumulate high levels of mercury and other toxins because they eat lots and lots of little fish that have been accumulating their own mercury and other toxins thus concentrating it.

so again since this happens in the wild why would it increase in farming?

60 Aye Pod  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:28:21pm

This year will be in the top five warmest years on record, according to figures compiled by the MET:

The UK's weather service projects that, unless there is an exceptionally cold spell before the end of the year, temperatures will be up on last year.

Climate sceptics had pointed out that the temperature rise appeared to have stalled in the last decade or so.

That was caused in part by the Pacific La Nina current, which cools the Earth.

But the influence of La Nina declined in the spring and the Met Office project that, barring a very cold December, this year will be the fifth warmest on record.

Other sources say it could even be the third warmest.

The last ten years have been in the top 15 warmest on record. And this summer the UK enjoyed temperatures higher than the long-term average.

Although the Met Office was pilloried after forecasting a "barbecue summer", it was their rainfall forecast, not the projected temperatures, that was wrong.

Next year we will see the influence of the warming El Nino current, and the Met Office says there is a 50% chance that global temperatures will hit an all-time high.

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

61 Bagua  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:28:25pm

re: #42 SixDegrees

I'd point out that the report cited, itself, is a monument to uncertainty, with the authors stating flat out that they failed to predict current trends and that their models are obviously flawed. It's right there at the top of the thread in plain English.

Of course, all the AGW papers state their uncertainty, assumptions and error bars clearly. Otherwise they would not be science and would be rejected.

62 Racer X  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:29:05pm

Ahh, here it is:

Were Greenland to lose all of its ice, sea levels would rise some seven meters higher than today’s levels. Such a scenario will not become reality overnight — indeed the process could last hundreds of years. But new results from a team of Dutch researchers suggest that conservative estimates as to the speed with which the ice is melting should be shelved. According to the study, the rate at which Greenland’s ice is melting has accelerated substantially in recent years.

27 feet?!? Holy cripes!

*runs around in a circle screaming*

Wait. Calm down.

*deep breath*

Sea-level prediction revised: By 2100, global sea-level is likely to rise at least twice as much as projected by Working Group 1 of the IPCC AR4, for unmitigated emissions it may well exceed 1 meter. The upper limit has been estimated as – 2 meters sea-level rise by 2100. Sea-level will continue to rise for centuries after global temperature have been stabilized and several meters of sea level rise must be expected over the next few centuries.

Wheew! Dodged a bullet there.

63 allegro  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:29:08pm

re: #59 brookly red

so again since this happens in the wild why would it increase in farming?

Maybe because they're cutting up the big fish with the concentrated levels and feeding the parts to the little fish that wouldn't otherwise be eating them? Just a thought.

64 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:29:28pm

re: #57 ryannon

You're confusing Gaia with Kali.

But I get you mean.

Kali already downdinged this thread. Oops, never mind, that was Keli.

65 Cain  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:29:41pm

All the same usual clown authors goose-stepping in the same direction. This is IPCC-lite stuff. I guess there isn't even one credible scientist anywhere in the world who might take issue with this report... no wait a minute, there are many who do; almost forgot. Of course, they're not allowed to play in this arena and certainly would never be allowed to contribute on a report like this. They're simply too "unpredictable". That might approach something that looked like the scientific method. The church of AGW has little room for science and absolutely no room for infidel non-believers.

Why do you champion this rot so blindly Charles? You hit the nail on the head with the creationist nonsense and then completely lose your way on this one in my view. It makes no sense.

66 SixDegrees  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:29:54pm

re: #44 brookly red

uhhh don't big fish eat little fish in the wild?

The problem is the fish are raised in tanks, not open water, and the water doesn't get changed much, allowing all sorts of unpleasantness to build up over time; extensive plumbing often contributes to contaminants. Parasites are also a major problem. And the fish themselves don't have the flavor or texture of their wild counterparts, due mainly to lack of exercise and, to a lesser extent, a monotonous diet.

It isn't enough to make me avoid farmed fish. But there are a lot of problems with the practice.

67 Obdicut  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:30:55pm

re: #51 Cato the Elder

68 jaunte  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:31:11pm

re: #63 allegro

Maybe because they're cutting up the big fish with the concentrated levels and feeding the parts to the little fish that wouldn't otherwise be eating them? Just a thought.

I think that's it. Farmed carnivorous fish (trout, salmon) are fed with commercial fish meal made from whatever can be caught, including a lot of shark and mackerel.

69 ryannon  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:31:35pm

re: #65 Cain

All the same usual clown authors goose-stepping in the same direction. This is IPCC-lite stuff. I guess there isn't even one credible scientist anywhere in the world who might take issue with this report... no wait a minute, there are many who do; almost forgot. Of course, they're not allowed to play in this arena and certainly would never be allowed to contribute on a report like this. They're simply too "unpredictable". That might approach something that looked like the scientific method. The church of AGW has little room for science and absolutely no room for infidel non-believers.

Why do you champion this rot so blindly Charles? You hit the nail on the head with the creationist nonsense and then completely lose your way on this one in my view. It makes no sense.

Life's a bitch, sometimes.

70 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:31:40pm

re: #51 Cato the Elder

I'm willing do do without the needless packaging.

The rest you can pry out of my cold, dead hands. Same goes for air conditioning in a hot and humid hell like Baltimore.

When Al Gore gives up his lifestyle for mine, maybe I'll think about giving up mine for yours. If I can afford it, for, as you so truly note, it's only the rich who can buy politically-ecologically correct products all the time.

And by the way, if we all ate nothing but local stuff, a lot of us would die of scurvy. No citrus groves where I live. Not to mention that without global trade in foodstuffs of all kinds, the economy would collapse.

I don't want to live in one of Ted Kaczynski's "small groups" and subsist on roots and tubers, not even to save the bloody old planet. The bloody old planet will have to save itself without my help.

Unless, of course, you can get the eco-police to come and make me toe the line.

Hang in there Cato, I'm right behind you. (Are you sure we are not brothers?)

71 Right Brain  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:32:14pm

re: #46 J.S.

I find your comment pretty much incoherent. You think science (or scientific findings) are based on popularity or opinion polls? (to claim that X is true because lots of people believe it -- that's fallacious reasoning.)

Never read The Structure of Scientific Revolutions?

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

What is your best definition of "paradigm shift"? Six people working in a lab?

72 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:32:47pm

re: #65 Cain

Have you read the report, or are your prejudices so brittle that they wouldn't be able to stand exposure to reality?

73 Obdicut  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:32:55pm

Damn it, lost my text again. I hate it when that happens.

Suffice it to say:

@Cato:

The decision at this point is whether we change the way we do things voluntarily, or have them changed by the altered climate. There is no choice that lets us continue as we are without a change to our lives. There never was such a choice.

It doesn't take the eco-police to enforce that. Just physics.

74 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:33:05pm

re: #65 Cain

Why do you champion this rot so blindly Charles? You hit the nail on the head with the creationist nonsense and then completely lose your way on this one in my view. It makes no sense.

If you believe him on one score, perhaps it's time to re-examine your view on the other.

75 ryannon  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:33:17pm

re: #64 wrenchwench

Kali already downdinged this thread. Oops, never mind, that was Keli.

Kali's idiot brother.

76 cliffster  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:33:20pm

re: #55 brookly red

uhhh, is a polite way of saying yeah right...

If you think I'm wrong, just tell me, won't hurt my feelings none. I am thinking back to a good list of the various fish and other water-residing food sources, and the toxins they contain. I referred to that list while my wife was pregnant. Can't find it now, but here's a little somethin'

uuhhh...

77 Gus  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:34:06pm

re: #64 wrenchwench

Kali already downdinged this thread. Oops, never mind, that was Keli.

Weird. It's like they're angry or something.

78 J.S.  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:34:20pm

re: #71 Right Brain

I read it when it came out. So, if you figure that "it's all about da oipinons" how do you get paradigm shifts? (that was, also part of Kuhn's argument, if you've read the text).

79 Right Brain  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:37:11pm

re: #78 J.S.

I read it when it came out. So, if you figure that "it's all about da oipinons" how do you get paradigm shifts? (that was, also part of Kuhn's argument, if you've read the text).

You read it in 1962? Someone here older than me!

80 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:37:31pm

re: #77 Gus 802

Weird. It's like they're angry or something.

They are angry, very angry. It shows in the comments, and the nasty emails I get.

81 Cato the Elder  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:37:55pm

re: #73 Obdicut

Damn it, lost my text again. I hate it when that happens.

Suffice it to say:

@Cato:

The decision at this point is whether we change the way we do things voluntarily, or have them changed by the altered climate. There is no choice that lets us continue as we are without a change to our lives. There never was such a choice.

It doesn't take the eco-police to enforce that. Just physics.

Voluntary change is not on the agenda of the eco-totalitarians. The are counting on AGW panic to provide the royal road to state control of everything.

82 Bagua  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:37:56pm

re: #50 phrogdriver

Did you write peer-reviewed with a straight face? In case no one told you the man made global warming hoax has been exposed for all to see. Their scary reports are now laughable. Since you believers never gave up anything anyway, what difference do all their reports make?

Bull.

83 brookly red  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:38:04pm

re: #76 cliffster

If you think I'm wrong, just tell me, won't hurt my feelings none. I am thinking back to a good list of the various fish and other water-residing food sources, and the toxins they contain. I referred to that list while my wife was pregnant. Can't find it now, but here's a little somethin'

no I don't think your wrong, I just am big on fish farming & if it takes changing the water more often, so be it.

84 Gus  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:38:24pm

Fomr the Copenhagen Diagnosis:

If global warming is to be limited to a maximum of 2oC above pre-industrial values, global emissions need to peak between 2015 and 2020 and then decline rapidly. To stabilize climate, a decarbonized global society – with near-zero emissions of CO2 and other long-lived greenhouse gases – need to be reached well within this century. More specifically, the average annual per-capita emissions will have to shrink to well under 1 metric ton CO2 by 2050. This is 80-90% below the per-capita emissions in developed nations in 2000.

We're looking at two deadlines here. One is 2050 and the other is 2109. We're talking about 41 years for the first deadline and 100 years for the latter.

Now, think about where we were in in 1969 and 1909 technologically. It's hard to believe that people think we won't be able to accomplish these goals within 100 years. Even harder to believe that people actually think we're supposed to be living in the same manner as we do today come 2109.

Think about it. Is the world today the same as it was in 1909?

85 Aye Pod  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:38:47pm

re: #73 Obdicut

Case in point -

Climate 'is a major cause' of conflict in Africa:


Climate has been a major driver of armed conflict in Africa, research shows - and future warming is likely to increase the number of deaths from war.

US researchers found that across the continent, conflict was about 50% more likely in unusually warm years.

Writing in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS), they suggest strife arises when the food supply is scarce in warm conditions.

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

86 drogheda  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:39:00pm

re: #59 brookly red

so again since this happens in the wild why would it increase in farming?

As other above pointed out what they're fed does have an effect and if they're fed other fish then they're just going to concentrate whatever toxins are present in those fish. The concentrating of toxins is just something that can't be avoided, especially with toxins the fish have no way of eliminating.

87 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:39:24pm

re: #77 Gus 802

Weird. It's like they're angry or something.

I don't know how they can ignore what's right in front of their face? Facts are hard to swallow for some folk.

88 cliffster  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:40:10pm

re: #83 brookly red

no I don't think your wrong, I just am big on fish farming & if it takes changing the water more often, so be it.

You got that right. Let's figure out a way to farm fish without the toxic buildup. And by "let's", I mean, "Hey, you scientists".

89 jaunte  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:40:11pm

re: #83 brookly red

One barrier to fish farming businesses in the U.S. is the regulation of effluent. that's one reason you see so much fish in the supermarkets that's imported from China. They're a bit more lax about what they put in the water.

90 Gus  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:40:49pm

re: #87 Walter L. Newton

I don't know how they can ignore what's right in front of their face? Facts are hard to swallow for some folk.

Yeah, but you ascribe to a counter-AGW side but don't come off as angry. Neither does Cato.

91 Ojoe  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:40:50pm

Time to start orienting our buildings toward the sun & put the right amount of windows on the equator side, and enough thermal mass in the building. Then you get lot of free heat in the winter. And you can cool a house at night in the summer in most US climates by running slow air changes through the house at night.

"Passive Solar Design" it is called.

It is cheap, you are just reconfiguring the parts of a house which you would have to pay for anyway.

Passive solar summary.

92 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:41:14pm

re: #85 Jimmah

Case in point -

Climate 'is a major cause' of conflict in Africa:

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

It's even driving some woman to prostitution...

[Link: blogs.news.com.au...]

AGW effects so many things.

93 Cain  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:41:17pm

Admittedly, no I haven't finished it yet, working through it now. And no, I don't believe my prejudices are too brittle, I am open to the possibility I'm wrong. Are you? Are the people who wrote this report? They don't behave that way. Why else continue to shun all opposing viewpoints? Why fudge data? Why hide methods? Why demonize and ostracize science peers who don't agree with them? Those are acts of desperation, not confident scientists able to defend their work on a topic that will eventually hit every one on this planet very close to home no matter which way things fall.

94 Obdicut  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:41:33pm

re: #81 Cato the Elder

Voluntary change is not on the agenda of the eco-totalitarians. The are counting on AGW panic to provide the royal road to state control of everything.

Uh, okay.

Who are these eco-totalitarians? Anyone who suggests that we need to change the way we live?

95 brookly red  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:42:02pm

well I am glad I live on a hill.

96 Gus  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:42:39pm

So more on the 1909 point.

Look any different here from today?

Or the Wright Brothers in 1903.

Are we living today as we did then?

97 Cato the Elder  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:42:51pm

What hasn't been discussed so far on this thread is the admission of impotence by the people attending the København conference implied in their punting any concrete agreement or plan to some unspecified time and place in the future.

If it's all so damn urgent and everybody agrees, why not negotiate now? Is it because they know no piece of paper, however "binding" in name, is enforceable in the real world?

98 McSpiff  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:43:04pm

re: #8 Cato the Elder

Please spell my name correctly and I might take you seriously. Look Cato, you can rant and rave all you want. The major, and virtually only source of note for CO2 in my region of the world is coal fired power plants. My goal is to be one of the engineers involved with shutting them down. Rant and rave all you want, but over half of Canada's electricity already comes from non-CO2 admitting sources. My region is one of the few that relies on coal. This is being addressed, and the generating capacity is actually being increased. No one has to limit anything. If anything, people will be encouraged to switch over to electric heat and cooking.

99 Cain  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:43:07pm

"If you believe him on one score, perhaps it's time to re-examine your view on the other."

Well, that's a two-edged sword. Pretty meaningless comment really.

100 ricblog  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:43:11pm

The Fat Lady has sung, Elvis has left the building and the AGW party is over. Nothing more to see here, so move along. Oh, I almost forgot,,, It's Bush's fault. ric

101 Cato the Elder  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:43:25pm

re: #94 Obdicut

Uh, okay.

Who are these eco-totalitarians? Anyone who suggests that we need to change the way we live?

Wait around. You'll know them when you see them.

102 jaunte  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:43:26pm

re: #96 Gus 802

Just try to find tires for your Hupmobile.

103 J.S.  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:43:28pm

re: #79 Right Brain

No, I didn't read it in 1962 -- it was a revised and updated edition. But it was decades ago.

104 Ojoe  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:43:42pm

re: #94 Obdicut

We've always been changing the way we live. It is a natural occurrence.

Ho ho.

105 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:44:18pm

Hot Air is now reporting that John Bolton is wetting his pants and keeping his family out of New York because he's afraid the KSM trial will anger the terrorists. Coward.

106 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:44:35pm

This is really waking up the sleepers.

107 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:44:39pm

re: #94 Obdicut

Uh, okay.

Who are these eco-totalitarians? Anyone who suggests that we need to change the way we live?

The ones who live in 18-room mansions and fly off to their speaking engagements in learjets with a Sasquatch-ian footprint so they can tell us how our 12 mile commute in our Nissan is destroying the planet- yes.

108 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:44:45pm

Just a couple of small questions:

"Over the past 25 years temperatures have increased at a rate of 0.190C per decade, in every good agreement with predictions based on greenhouse gas increases."

Is this written in English? What does "in every good agreement" mean? Are there some "not-so-good" agreements, or some "bad" agreements?

"Natural, short- term fluctuations are occurring as usual but there have been no significant changes in the underlying warming trend."

Is this a reference to the fact that cooling has been occuring over the past two years?

"Satellites show great global average sea-level rise (3.4 mm/yr over the past 15 years)"

Wouldn't that be 2 inches in 15 years, or about 1/8 inch per year?

109 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:44:58pm

The natives are restless today.

110 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:45:04pm

re: #95 brookly red

well I am glad I live on a hill.

Prospect Park is not really a hill!

111 ryannon  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:45:49pm

re: #96 Gus 802

So more on the 1909 point.

Are we living today as we did then?

Hey, I'd love to have one of those!

[Link: images.google.com...]

With Cato as my chauffeur and SpaceJesus as the navigator!

112 Gus  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:46:01pm

re: #102 jaunte

Just try to find tires for your Hupmobile.

Image: 1922hupmobile4dr.jpg

Now I'm thinking about air transportation in 1969. I remember back in the 1960s it would literally rain down soot from some of the 707s. The jets were loud turbojets and the air smelled like kerosene everywhere.

40 years ago. Times changes and the 40 year goal is easily attainable. The 100 year goal even more so.

113 brookly red  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:46:17pm

re: #110 Walter L. Newton

Prospect Park is not really a hill!

clinton hill IS a hill...

114 Cato the Elder  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:47:25pm

re: #98 McSpiff

Please spell my name correctly and I might take you seriously.

Now you're just plain lying. ;^)

115 Gus  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:47:58pm
116 Ojoe  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:48:27pm
117 Aye Pod  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:48:57pm

re: #92 Walter L. Newton

It's even driving some woman to prostitution...

[Link: blogs.news.com.au...]

AGW effects so many things.

It says :

“Climate change could reduce income from farming and fishing possibly driving some women into sex work...”

I don't see anything inherently ludicrous in the notion that climate change could cause hardship, or that hardship can drive women into the sex industry. Should I?

118 McSpiff  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:49:47pm

re: #114 Cato the Elder

True, but I figured dangling that carrot couldn't hurt.

119 Cato the Elder  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:49:58pm

re: #115 Gus 802

Noontime smog on a street in Donora, Pennsylvania, 1948

Well within 100 years time.

I'm sorry but that looks like a night shot to me. Somebody's fauxtographing again.

120 Ojoe  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:50:19pm

We can lick this carbon thing with technology, IF we have the political will.

We won't, if politics consists of name calling and dirty tricks.

121 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:50:39pm

Has anyone here actually experienced any change in sea levels - or do we need to be in a satellite to notice it?

122 cliffster  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:50:41pm

re: #115 Gus 802

Noontime smog on a street in Donora, Pennsylvania, 1948

Well within 100 years time.

How did you take that picture if it won't be for another 100 years? I don't get it..

123 J.S.  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:50:50pm

re: #79 Right Brain

One of Kuhn's argument's was that science advances -- while "literary" or artistic subjects do not progress. Science continuously builds and develops based on past experiments. What overturns an existing "way of thinking" is NOT opinion - it's the data. When sufficient discrepancies are found in the data which are no longer explained by existing theories, then you get a change...(and, according to Kuhn the changes weren't always incremental, but revolutionary -- ie, the paradigm shifts.) But again, science is driven by the data (not by public opinon or even the opinions of "experts." Science doesn't work that way.)

124 brookly red  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:50:51pm

re: #117 Jimmah

I don't see anything inherently ludicrous in the notion that climate change could cause hardship, or that hardship can drive women into the sex industry. Should I?

/gives a new meaning to cap & trade, now don't it...

125 Gus  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:51:43pm

re: #122 cliffster

How did you take that picture if it won't be for another 100 years? I don't get it..

That it was like that within a 100 year time period. In other words came from that place in 1948.

126 reine.de.tout  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:52:14pm

re: #84 Gus 802

Fomr the Copenhagen Diagnosis:

We're looking at two deadlines here. One is 2050 and the other is 2109. We're talking about 41 years for the first deadline and 100 years for the latter.

Now, think about where we were in in 1969 and 1909 technologically. It's hard to believe that people think we won't be able to accomplish these goals within 100 years. Even harder to believe that people actually think we're supposed to be living in the same manner as we do today come 2109.

Think about it. Is the world today the same as it was in 1909?

Of course the world isn't the same today as it was in 1909.

If we can keep government officials from getting to the point where they are regulating and taxing and watching over every move we make, the marketplace will take care of much of this.

When I was born, my parents did not have a television set, not even a black and white one, because they could not afford it. The technology was still new enough to be very expensive. Regular TV sets today cost less than they did in the 1950's.

I couldn't imagine ever being able to afford having a computer in my house. I now have a desktop and 3 laptop computers.

"Car phones" - very expensive to buy, and very expensive to use. Now just about everyone has a cell phone.

Beta-max - remember? Only the very rich could afford a device that allowed them to record and play from the TV set. Today I have 3 DVD players in my house, one for each TV set.

Technology evolved, and the things that could be afforded by only the very rich are not affordable to everyone.

Right now I do hang most of my clothes to dry, but it's not because I will save a quarter or two in electrical costs. It's because it makes sense to preserve my clothes instead of having them beat to death and shrunk in a dryer.

I have no reason to doubt that the same thing will happen with "green" construction methods for homes and "green" technology for automobiles.

When people can afford to buy and use these things, when it makes sense in their everyday lives to do these things, they will.

127 Racer X  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:53:13pm

re: #124 brookly red

/gives a new meaning to cap & trade, now don't it...

If you're gonna trade, you should always wear a cap.

128 cliffster  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:53:32pm

re: #125 Gus 802

That it was like that within a 100 year time period. In other words came from that place in 1948.

Joking. Sorry no tag

129 Right Brain  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:53:34pm

re: #103 J.S.

No, I didn't read it in 1962 -- it was a revised and updated edition. But it was decades ago.

It cannot be over-stated how influential that essay was on the counter-culture and ultimately post-structuralism.

130 Gus  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:54:06pm

re: #126 reine.de.tout

True. I certainly hope that private enterprise will play a leading role in this and I think they will.

131 lostlakehiker  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:54:18pm

re: #8 Cato the Elder

As to the last two sentences:

Who among those here who think that AGW is gonna kill us all and we have to do something nownownow or else we're all gonna die is here, today, right now, in writing, willing to commit to reducing your personal carbon footprint by 80-90% in the shortest possible time, but no later than by 2050? Oh, forget 2050, that's the outside date set by the Copenhagen hand-sitters. A real eco-mensch should be willing to shoot for 2020.

So, put it on the line. Personally. LVQ? MacSpiff? Allegra? Don't tell me about societal changes and nuclear plants or someday buying a hybrid or washing your damn dishes by hand. You must be the change you wish to see in the world, according to Gandhi. So? When do you give up your cars, teevees, plane rides, out-of-season produce, synthetic anything, plastics (including computers and mobile phones and digital cameras), modern health care, books, magazines, CDs, DVDs, and the rest?

I want signatures.

What I'm gonna do is, I'm gonna buy LED bulbs for my house, and skip some airmobile vacations. But more to the point, really, I'm gonna invest some in solar energy.

The answer isn't for people to give up this and that. Al Gore hasn't given up his 200 million square foot mansion or his ocean-liner sized waistline. His carbon footprint is the size of Tennessee. Abstemious living isn't in the cards for most of us, and the Copenhagen talks, just like the Kyoto talks before them, amount to nothing but talk. (For a discussion of why this was, is, and will be, see Bruce Bueno de Mesquite's book `The predictioneer's game', or Adam Smith, or any discussion of the tragedy of the commons.)

That's the bad news. The good news is that we are actually closing in on solar photovoltaic grid parity. Wikipedia's take A development that had seemed quite remote just years ago now looms on the horizon. When we hit grid parity, and we will, electricity from coal and oil will no longer be competitive with solar in the most favorable climes, e.g. Florida, So. California, Texas, Hawaii, and Australia. The market for solar will soar, and installed solar power will contribute much more to our energy supply than it does now. This market will prompt further scientific and engineering advances, and the solar grid parity "Mason-Dixon line" will crawl northward. In 30 years, we'll be heaving a sigh of relief that the impending exhaustion of our coal and oil reserves has been averted, that AGW has been mitigated enough that we dodge the very worst of the consequences, and that we can have industrial civilization without driving temperatures to dangerous extremes.

And it can all be done, and will all be done, without a top to bottom remake of human nature. We'll still be defecting from altruistic promises more often than we keep them.

132 Gus  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:54:27pm

Gotta run. BBL

133 Ojoe  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:54:41pm

re: #126 reine.de.tout

Right now I do hang most of my clothes to dry

When you hang your clothes on a line, it is fun to think that the moisture in them is going to fall as rain somewhere else.

134 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:54:52pm

re: #117 Jimmah

Right...I forgot that there was no such thing as prostitution in the 3rd world before the internal combustion engine.

/especially in the Philippines

135 Bagua  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:54:58pm

re: #93 Cain

Admittedly, no I haven't finished it yet, working through it now. And no, I don't believe my prejudices are too brittle, I am open to the possibility I'm wrong. Are you? Are the people who wrote this report? They don't behave that way. Why else continue to shun all opposing viewpoints? Why fudge data? Why hide methods? Why demonize and ostracize science peers who don't agree with them? Those are acts of desperation, not confident scientists able to defend their work on a topic that will eventually hit every one on this planet very close to home no matter which way things fall.

Only one of the Authors appears to be implicated in any of that. Most of the Climategate revolves around Prof. Phil Jones who is not an author of this "diagnosis".

136 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:55:54pm

re: #121 Spare O'Lake

Has anyone here actually experienced any change in sea levels - or do we need to be in a satellite to notice it?

Manus Island in Papua New Guinea.

137 efuseakay  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:56:16pm

I accept the notion of global warming... it's real... but as far as man's effect on it? I'm not at all so sure about that.

Before man even existed, the planet was a lot hotter... did those dinosaurs have factories all over the planet we haven't found yet?

...

138 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:56:21pm

re: #92 Walter L. Newton

Apparently it affects peoples discernment between semi or un related phenomena. Prostitution is an act of fiscal not climate/sea level desperation. Can be caused by any crisis to cash flow, anywhere there are no better options or safety nets like general relief.

Headlines like AGW causes Prostituion are unhelpful as such ridiculous headlines arouse skepticism. By analogy-What if approved over the counter drugs were sold by the same guys that have snake oil and freak show carnivals? I'd run. Run for a legitimate source for my needs.

139 Obdicut  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:57:00pm

re: #101 Cato the Elder

I'm sorry, but that's not a very good answer. It's not even really an answer.

If you're making an accusation about eco-totalitarians having an agenda, shouldn't you be able to name a few?

There are definitely fringe whackos like Kazinksy who advocate a really radical change to life that, well, just won't happen.

If that's what you mean by eco-totalitarian, I'm unsure why you're focusing on them, rather than the rational and reasonable people who would like to address AGW earlier, and cheaper, rather than later, and more expensively.

140 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:57:18pm

re: #126 reine.de.tout


Right now I do hang most of my clothes to dry, but it's not because I will save a quarter or two in electrical costs. It's because it makes sense to preserve my clothes instead of having them beat to death and shrunk in a dryer.

Not to mention when the dryer eats the socks.
DOWN WITH DRYERS!
UP WITH CLOTHESLINES!

141 Ojoe  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:58:06pm

earlier, and cheaper, rather than later, and more expensively.

Upding

142 Aye Pod  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:58:23pm

re: #134 Fenway_Nation

Right...I forgot that there was no such thing as prostitution in the 3rd world before the internal combustion engine.

/especially in the Philippines

That's just stupid. No-one said anything remotely resembling that all prostitution in the 3rd world was attributable to climate change.

143 cliffster  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:59:07pm

We just need to clone Lance Armstrong..

144 Perplexed  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 3:59:10pm
145 reine.de.tout  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:00:04pm

re: #121 Spare O'Lake

Has anyone here actually experienced any change in sea levels - or do we need to be in a satellite to notice it?

Louisiana's wetlands.

A football-field sized area disappears every 30 minutes. This is due to many factors, but global warming may be one of them:

Since 1930 water has consumed more than 1,900 square miles (4,900 km²) of the state’s land. This loss equates to the disappearance of 25 square miles (65 km²) of wetlands each year or a football field sized area every 30 minutes.


. . .
T

he eastern coastline of Louisiana is much more susceptible to erosion than the western coastline because much of the eastern coastline was created by silt deposits from the Mississippi River. The western coastline is marshy, but the marshes only extend inland by 30 miles (48 km) at the most, then the elevation begins to increase and the marshes fade into solid grounded prairies. Therefore, rising sea levels due to global warming and coastal erosion, are not and will not affect the western coastline as profoundly as it will the eastern half, which may cease to exist.
146 J.S.  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:01:59pm

re: #129 Right Brain

Yes, and then there are some scientific fields which aren't so much data-driven (ie, conducting experiments and gathering observational data), as in math driven (theoretical physics would be an example -- which isn't driven by actual observations...the observations, as with the Hadron Collider, may occur afterwards..)

147 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:02:33pm

re: #117 Jimmah

I don't see anything inherently ludicrous in the notion that climate change could cause hardship, or that hardship can drive women into the sex industry. Should I?

When did I ever say anything like that? You pointed out one of the wide ranging effects of AGW and I followed suit. Why would you challenge me like you just did? Show me where I said something like you are suggesting. I'm confused (and a bit bothered). Do you think I just pulled that link out of my ass? I had it bookmarked in my AGW category.

Sorry.

148 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:04:30pm

re: #136 Charles

Manus Island in Papua New Guinea.

Wow. That story sounded like a lot more than 2 inches. Maybe the island is sinking too, or something else is going on.

149 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:04:45pm

re: #138 Rightwingconspirator

Apparently it affects peoples discernment between semi or un related phenomena. Prostitution is an act of fiscal not climate/sea level desperation. Can be caused by any crisis to cash flow, anywhere there are no better options or safety nets like general relief.

Headlines like AGW causes Prostituion are unhelpful as such ridiculous headlines arouse skepticism. By analogy-What if approved over the counter drugs were sold by the same guys that have snake oil and freak show carnivals? I'd run. Run for a legitimate source for my needs.

Well... I'm sorry. Jimmah was pointing out the wide range of effects that AGW has, and I was simply supporting his contention with another factor that someone has pointed out.

Gosh, you'd think I called someone a lier or something.

Sorry.

150 ryannon  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:05:09pm

re: #140 Spare O'Lake

Not to mention when the dryer eats the socks.
DOWN WITH DRYERS!
UP WITH CLOTHESLINES!

BEAT YOUR CLOTHES ON CURBSTONES!

151 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:05:56pm

The real Gorilla in the room is climate change period. We focus on AGW because it is major factor, and perhaps more importantly 100% of what we can change.

I would like to see a climate run of the models that shows what the climate would be doing if we were at 75%, 50% and 0% of our current human emission footprints. I have been looking for the data run this way. No luck.

As a related thought experiment-Would we encourage coal fired plants if the seas were falling ans ice sheets advancing ? My point is we are in the game of climate manipulation no matter what climate changes are coming. Humanity better get very good at it.

152 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:05:59pm

re: #150 ryannon

I hope this works better than that time we were supposed to beat them into plowshares...

153 Bagua  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:06:24pm

re: #117 Jimmah

I don't see anything inherently ludicrous in the notion that climate change could cause hardship, or that hardship can drive women into the sex industry. Should I?

The Copenhagen farce is also causing an increase in prostitution.

Link

- We have been busy like mad. The politicians do also need to relax after a long day, is the verdict from 'Miss Dina', who works as a prostitute.

It is the News bulletin 3F, which has made phonecalls to various escort agencies and prostitutes, to know, if they have been extra busy during the Global warming conference. And they all agree: Top summits in Copenhagen is good for the economy.

The chairwoman of Reden [The nest] International [The prostitutes association] Doris Otzen acknowledge, that big events in Copenhagen attracts more sex-workers.

- Lots of men gathered at one place means more work for the prostitutes. Then we have got a government which do not want to forbid prostitution, so we actually invites the visitors to go to prostitutes, says Dorit Otzen to the News bulletin 3F.

154 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:06:43pm

Everybody should be driving one of these!

155 brookly red  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:07:22pm

re: #151 Rightwingconspirator

The real Gorilla in the room is climate change period. We focus on AGW because it is major factor, and perhaps more importantly 100% of what we can change.

I would like to see a climate run of the models that shows what the climate would be doing if we were at 75%, 50% and 0% of our current human emission footprints. I have been looking for the data run this way. No luck.

As a related thought experiment-Would we encourage coal fired plants if the seas were falling ans ice sheets advancing ? My point is we are in the game of climate manipulation no matter what climate changes are coming. Humanity better get very good at it.

dust in the wind...

156 ryannon  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:07:22pm

re: #152 Fenway_Nation

I hope this works better than that time we were supposed to beat them into plowshares...

Our clothes?

I can see how that wouldn't work out too well...

157 drogheda  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:09:01pm

re: #156 ryannon

Our clothes?

I can see how that wouldn't work out too well...

Well it wouldn't if you didn't use enough starch.

//

158 cliffster  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:09:10pm

re: #152 Fenway_Nation

I hope this works better than that time we were supposed to beat them into plowshares...

Make love, not shirts.

159 lostlakehiker  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:09:17pm

re: #108 Spare O'Lake

Just a couple of small questions:

"Over the past 25 years temperatures have increased at a rate of 0.190C per decade, in every good agreement with predictions based on greenhouse gas increases."

Is this written in English? What does "in every good agreement" mean? Are there some "not-so-good" agreements, or some "bad" agreements?

"Natural, short- term fluctuations are occurring as usual but there have been no significant changes in the underlying warming trend."

Is this a reference to the fact that cooling has been occuring over the past two years?

"Satellites show great global average sea-level rise (3.4 mm/yr over the past 15 years)"

Wouldn't that be 2 inches in 15 years, or about 1/8 inch per year?

You've never proofread anything, evidently, or you'd see that "every good agreement" is a typo away from "very good agreement", which means, well, very good agreement.

"Natural, short-term fluctuations" means, well, natural short term ups and downs. Amazingly, AGW is not the only influence on the weather. Solar forcing increases during times of intense sunspot activity and decreases during times of low sunspot activity, such as the last several years. A chance volcanic eruption can cool the climate for a few years. A chance big snowstorm late in winter can lay down a blanket of snow that delays spring for another week. The climate has never, ever, moved along a nice straight clean trend-line. It never will. Not if you measure day by day, or even year by year. You have to look at 25-year running averages if you want the trend line to emerge clearly from the noise in the signal.

The 25-year running averages are running uphill pretty convincingly.

As to 3.4 mm per year, that's today's rate. Within this century, rates of 5, 7, or 10 mm per year are not out of the question. But let's stick with 3.4 mm per year. That's 34 cm per century. More than a foot. Laugh if you will, but many areas of the world are at quite modest levels above the sea. Half of Bangladesh lies less than 1 meter up. So 16 percent of Bangladesh goes under as a result of that laughable 34 centimeters. With a population of 160 million, that's 20 million people flooded out. Real funny, eh? These are subsistence farmers. With no land to farm, they'll starve. Either that, or riot or something. Don't think that what happens there makes no difference here. And Bangladesh isn't the only place that will be hurt, and hurt badly. Nor is rising sea level the only problem with AGW.

160 Racer X  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:09:34pm

re: #153 Bagua

The Copenhagen farce is also causing an increase in prostitution.

Link

- We have been busy like mad. The politicians do also need to relax after a long day, is the verdict from 'Miss Dina', who works as a prostitute.

It is the News bulletin 3F, which has made phonecalls to various escort agencies and prostitutes, to know, if they have been extra busy during the Global warming conference. And they all agree: Top summits in Copenhagen is good for the economy.

The chairwoman of Reden [The nest] International [The prostitutes association] Doris Otzen acknowledge, that big events in Copenhagen attracts more sex-workers.

- Lots of men gathered at one place means more work for the prostitutes. Then we have got a government which do not want to forbid prostitution, so we actually invites the visitors to go to prostitutes, says Dorit Otzen to the News bulletin 3F.

LMAO!

Don't tell Bill Clinton.

161 Cain  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:10:51pm

re: #135 Bagua

Only one of the Authors appears to be implicated in any of that. Most of the Climategate revolves around Prof. Phil Jones who is not an author of this "diagnosis".

Fair enough... but if pressed, do you imagine these authors will defend, ignore, or denounce these methods being revealed now? Given the track record of pro-AGW researchers, I'm guessing they'll defend or ignore but time will tell. Anything less than a denunciation is inadequate in my view. Non-professionals have to be able to trust the work of scientists or many bad things follow.

162 Aye Pod  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:11:29pm

re: #147 Walter L. Newton

When did I ever say anything like that? You pointed out one of the wide ranging effects of AGW and I followed suit. Why would you challenge me like you just did? Show me where I said something like you are suggesting. I'm confused (and a bit bothered). Do you think I just pulled that link out of my ass? I had it bookmarked in my AGW category.

Sorry.

It read like you were suggesting just that. 9 times out of 10 a comment like that coming from an AGW skeptic would have been. Apologies if it wasn't.

163 Pepper Fox  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:11:37pm

re: #154 Alouette

Everybody should be driving one of these!


[Video]

I want to see a crash test of that. It would be like throwing a Lego model against the wall.

164 Bagua  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:12:04pm

re: #160 Racer X

LMAO!

Don't tell Bill Clinton.

Who knew fighting Climate Change would also lead to more prostitution?

165 ryannon  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:12:14pm

re: #158 cliffster

Make love, not shirts.

Learn how to prioritize:

Make many shirts.

Get rich selling them.

Spend rest of life making love.

166 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:12:30pm

re: #145 reine.de.tout

Wow. Are the Louisiana Wetlands fresh water or salt water? What about the effects of erosion from wave action and winds?

167 Cato the Elder  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:12:37pm

Let's say you live on an island in the Pacific whose average elevation above sea level is eight inches.

Do you have the right to expect the seas never to rise?

What if you live on a fault line somewhere in California or China. Or under the shadow of a long-dormant volcano. Do you think you should be protected from what nature might decide to do?

Whether it's GW or AGW, what hubris tells us we can control it?

I for one am not going to spend one minute of my remaining life worrying about global catastrophes. I've got reading to do.

If a green product comes within 10% of the lower-cost ecologically incorrect alternative, I'll consider it. Otherwise, call me carbon-tainted, or an eco-pig. It neither breaks my bones nor picks my pocket.

And now I'm going to ignore future AGW threads.

168 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:14:41pm

re: #149 Walter L. Newton

Walter- all is well, no apologies necessary or called for. Perhaps I spoke too strongly. I have a certain sensitivity to the media grabbing AGW for all sorts of silly contentions. That's just me. I hate ratings baiting.

Charles and I once disagreed over a contention I had about an airline asking its customers to urinate just before flying to help reduce AGW. I thought it silly and unhelpful, Charles and quite a few lizards disagreed with me. While I have been convinced right here at this blog that its is AGW, I still detest the all too common excesses to promote the idea. My pet peeve I guess.

169 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:15:13pm

re: #155 brookly red

Do you mean that to say its over already?

170 ryannon  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:15:33pm

re: #163 Pepper Fox

I want to see a crash test of that. It would be like throwing a Lego model against the wall.

With crash-test dummies and everything?

171 Bagua  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:15:45pm

re: #167 Cato the Elder

[...]

And now I'm going to ignore future AGW threads.

I do hope you will reconsider that last line!

172 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:16:10pm

re: #93 Cain

Admittedly, no I haven't finished it yet, working through it now. And no, I don't believe my prejudices are too brittle, I am open to the possibility I'm wrong. Are you? Are the people who wrote this report?

This report has nothing to do with the stolen CRU emails.

Why else continue to shun all opposing viewpoints?

They don't. If you read through the stolen emails, there is a LOT of debate and opposing viewpoints. The "shunning" is directed at propagandists and deniers.

Why fudge data?

Nobody "fudged" any data.

Why hide methods?

Nobody hid any methods.

Why demonize and ostracize science peers who don't agree with them?

Examples, please?

Those are acts of desperation, not confident scientists able to defend their work on a topic that will eventually hit every one on this planet very close to home no matter which way things fall.

The real act of desperation is stealing emails, picking through them to find the ones that can be cast as "damning," then releasing them right before the Copenhagen summit in a very clear attempt to delegitimize the summit itself. And even with all the cherry-picking, what they came up with is very, very weak stuff indeed.

173 albusteve  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:17:44pm

re: #169 Rightwingconspirator

Do you mean that to say its over already?

I do...it's a battle we will not win...case closed, I'm with Cato on this one

174 Aye Pod  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:19:19pm

re: #153 Bagua

All conferences cause a boost in the amount of work for the local sex trade. The Church of Scotland Synod in Edinburgh, for example, was well known for being the busiest time for that city's prostitutes. However, I think that the hardship that global warming threatens to cause would tend to overshadow the effects of the Copenhagen climate conference.

175 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:20:24pm

re: #162 Jimmah

It read like you were suggesting just that. 9 times out of 10 a comment like that coming from an AGW skeptic would have been. Apologies if it wasn't.

You must have me confused with someone else. I am not a skeptic, get that straight right now. The actual science behind it all is a bit confusing to me, even though I have read most of what Charles, Ludwig and others have linked to.

Occasionally, you will find me not swallowing hook, line and sinker every new pronouncement that comes my way, but I never just dismiss the issue out of hand.

People like Ludwig carries no force with me. Just as Palin's association with certain people decrease her credibility, Ludwig's attitude is enough for me not to care one wit about any of the science he brings to the table. Not that the science he references and discusses is problematic, but he is, and I have no respect for him. Not more than I have any respect for Palin and others, considering the kind of people they cavort with.

And I will play devils advocate as much as the next one when I come across someone who treat this science like it was a religion.

But deny, no I do not deny, even though I don't fully understand.

And yes, your statement to me offends, very much so. But, I suspect as you expected no better from me, I didn't ecxpect any better from you.

So, we are even, aren't we?

176 desertcynic  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:21:49pm

re: #167 Cato the Elder

You might be right about the fault line in both cases.
This article suggests the shifting tectonic plates is causing the PNG islands to "sink".

Personally, I don't know what is causing it but they started out only a few feet above sea level.

177 BartB  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:21:56pm

Someone please check my arithmetic:
90 years until 2100 give or take one
3.4 MilliMeters per Year rise in sea level
90x3.4mm = 306MM = about 12 inches.

That's a long way from one or more meters.
12 inches will not move the coast to Denver.
I'm higher than Denver.

Maybe my great-great-granchildren will sell seashore properties.

But I doubt it.

178 Bagua  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:22:13pm

re: #174 Jimmah

All conferences cause a boost in the amount of work for the local sex trade. The Church of Scotland Synod in Edinburgh, for example, was well known for being the busiest time for that city's prostitutes. However, I think that the hardship that global warming threatens to cause would tend to overshadow the effects of the Copenhagen climate conference.

Yep, politics is bullish for prostitution.

179 freetoken  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:22:54pm

re: #177 BartB

Ice melt (either in Greenland or Antarctica) is not necessarily a linear phenomenon.

180 Pepper Fox  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:23:12pm

re: #170 ryannon

With crash-test dummies and everything?


That's the first regional denial code I've gotten living in the US.

181 The Left  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:23:42pm

re: #175 Walter L. Newton

And yes, your statement to me offends, very much so. But, I suspect as you expected no better from me, I didn't ecxpect any better from you.

I expected better from you than a statement like that, hence the downding.

182 Bagua  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:23:48pm

re: #175 Walter L. Newton

Well said and very fair, honest and balanced.

183 SpaceJesus  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:25:11pm

"The Side-Hug: Youth Group Puts Down Sinful "Front-Hugs" With Rap (VIDEO)"

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]


there are no words.

184 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:25:18pm

re: #142 Jimmah

That's just stupid. No-one said anything remotely resembling that all prostitution in the 3rd world was attributable to climate change.

re: #174 Jimmah

I think that the hardship that global warming threatens to cause would tend to overshadow the effects of the Copenhagen climate conference.

Hmm...climate change leads to hardship...hardship leads to prostitution...

Climate change = hookers.

185 brookly red  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:25:34pm

re: #169 Rightwingconspirator

Do you mean that to say its over already?

just the oppisite. water rises people move in land, it gets colder we move south, warmer we move north... carbon? well one big volcano changes everything. we are dust in the wind & things change. some people will have a problem with that, I don't.

186 Aye Pod  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:26:10pm

re: #175 Walter L. Newton

You must have me confused with someone else. I am not a skeptic, get that straight right now. The actual science behind it all is a bit confusing to me, even though I have read most of what Charles, Ludwig and others have linked to.

Occasionally, you will find me not swallowing hook, line and sinker every new pronouncement that comes my way, but I never just dismiss the issue out of hand.

People like Ludwig carries no force with me. Just as Palin's association with certain people decrease her credibility, Ludwig's attitude is enough for me not to care one wit about any of the science he brings to the table. Not that the science he references and discusses is problematic, but he is, and I have no respect for him. Not more than I have any respect for Palin and others, considering the kind of people they cavort with.

And I will play devils advocate as much as the next one when I come across someone who treat this science like it was a religion.

But deny, no I do not deny, even though I don't fully understand.

And yes, your statement to me offends, very much so. But, I suspect as you expected no better from me, I didn't ecxpect any better from you.

So, we are even, aren't we?

Is this a huge pile of hysterical drama-queen bullshit I see before me? Why yes, it is. Look Walter - I thought you were a skeptic - if you are not, all you had to do was say. K?

187 Bagua  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:26:29pm

re: #179 freetoken

Ice melt (either in Greenland or Antarctica) is not necessarily a linear phenomenon.

Agreed, it is also nonsense to rule out the worst predictions and possibilities just as it is wrong to exaggerate them.

188 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:27:07pm

re: #181 iceweasel

I expected better from you than a statement like that, hence the downding.

Jimmah started it, I really don't care. I explained myself honestly.

189 ryannon  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:27:23pm

re: #180 Pepper Fox

That's the first regional denial code I've gotten living in the US.

Sorry 'bout that. And this?

190 Bagua  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:27:42pm

re: #186 Jimmah

Is this a huge pile of hysterical drama-queen bullshit I see before me? Why yes, it is. Look Walter - I thought you were a skeptic - if you are not, all you had to do was say. K?

jimmah, please avoid personal insult.

191 freetoken  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:28:02pm

Too much emphasis, in discussions at contemporary event blogs such as this one, get bogged down in arguments over cataclysms.

This makes for heated exchanges but overlooks the real issues of slow aridification, shifting precipitations patterns, changes in local flora, etc. that result from changing climates.

Everyone argues over a Roland Emmerich type scenario... whereas the reality we face is one of change too gradual for any Hollywood blockbuster, but still way too quick for us to adapt to with our agricultural and economic systems, not to mention the rest of biosphere.

192 reine.de.tout  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:28:10pm

re: #166 Spare O'Lake

Wow. Are the Louisiana Wetlands fresh water or salt water? What about the effects of erosion from wave action and winds?

It's where the salt water of the gulf meets the fresh water of the Mississippi River and assorted lakes.

The wetlands served as a protection from waves and winds for the populated areas. As the wetlands disappear, populated areas are more severely affected by hurricanes.

Take a look at this. It shows what existed in 1853, and what was left by 1978.

I was looking for a better graphic - they exist, I've seen them, but I can't find one with a quick google search.

193 cliffster  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:28:23pm

He hit me first! Mooommm!!

194 captdiggs  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:28:41pm

re: #167 Cato the Elder

Whether it's GW or AGW, what hubris tells us we can control it?

.

I'm with you on that. There's an excellent comedy bit by George Carlin that says the same thing.

The temperatures were warmer between the 8th and 13th centuries than they are now. That was followed by what is called the "little ice age" for another 500 years.
Now we are warming.
I just don't see humankind as being responsible for these fluctuations.

195 The Left  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:28:45pm

re: #178 Bagua

Yep, politics is bullish for prostitution.

Everything is bullish for prostitution. It's called the oldest profession for a reason.
Catastrophic climate change would cause an upswing in prostitution, insofar as any time there is any change adversely affecting the poor and those close to subsistence living you will always see new workers entering the sex trade. Primarily women and children.
Most likely it would also cause a severe uptick in rape as well-- anything that causes displacements of large groups of people always has a rise in rape and sexual assault in its wake.

196 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:28:56pm

re: #193 cliffster

Don't make me turn this thread around!!!

/

197 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:30:00pm

re: #181 iceweasel

I expected better from you than a statement like that, hence the downding.

And considering that fact that you did, I will add you and Jimmah to my list under the same category as Ludwig. I was simply being honest, Jimmah was the one who questioned my comment in the way he did. I didn't challenge him. And then when I give a honest and balanced answer, you two play tag team and down ding.

Like I said in my long comment, it all has to do with the company you keep, that has been said on L:GF numerous times.

And it proves itself out again.

198 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:30:57pm

re: #175 Walter L. Newton


Occasionally, you will find me not swallowing hook, line and sinker every new pronouncement that comes my way, but I never just dismiss the issue out of hand.

I am generally skeptical of the big media hyped issues. I am so with you there. Been fooled too many times already. Ice age coming (circa 1970's school) California splitting along our fault and falling in the sea. Y2k. Well the climate always changes, California certainly has deadly earthquakes (the beaches are still right where they have been) and Y2k was resolved by sharp IT people.

AGW might work out in a similar fashion. New technologies, nuclear plants for electricity etc. Plus folks movin inland, plus dealing with West Nile et al.

199 Obdicut  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:31:09pm

re: #191 freetoken

Too much emphasis, in discussions at contemporary event blogs such as this one, get bogged down in arguments over cataclysms.

This makes for heated exchanges but overlooks the real issues of slow aridification, shifting precipitations patterns, changes in local flora, etc. that result from changing climates.

Everyone argues over a Roland Emmerich type scenario... whereas the reality we face is one of change too gradual for any Hollywood blockbuster, but still way too quick for us to adapt to with our agricultural and economic systems, not to mention the rest of biosphere.

Very, very well said.

It costs to adapt to change. It costs species to adapt. It will cost us to adapt as well. There is no such thing as a free lunch.

That doesn't mean that our quality of life can't be better a hundred years from now, with less energy use, than it is now.

re: #167 Cato the Elder

Whether it's GW or AGW, what hubris tells us we can control it?


The "A" in AGW tells us that, and tells us that it's not hubris.

Enjoy your reading. I hope that our scientists and engineers and everyone else are able to meet your criteria. I do hope that you don't simply stop thinking about the topic. That's never a good course of action.

200 Bagua  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:31:40pm

re: #195 iceweasel

Everything is bullish for prostitution. It's called the oldest profession for a reason.
[...]

Agreed, but don't omit Climate Change conferences from your list as they seem to cause increased prostitution and rape as well.

201 Obdicut  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:32:17pm

re: #194 captdiggs

I'm with you on that. There's an excellent comedy bit by George Carlin that says the same thing.

The temperatures were warmer between the 8th and 13th centuries than they are now. That was followed by what is called the "little ice age" for another 500 years.
Now we are warming.
I just don't see humankind as being responsible for these fluctuations.

The 'medieval warm period' was not a global phenomenon.

May I recommend the excellent www.skepticalscience.com for more information on the subject?

202 Cathypop  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:32:31pm

re: #197 Walter L. Newton

And considering that fact that you did, I will add you and Jimmah to my list under the same category as Ludwig. I was simply being honest, Jimmah was the one who questioned my comment in the way he did. I didn't challenge him. And then when I give a honest and balanced answer, you two play tag team and down ding.

Like I said in my long comment, it all has to do with the company you keep, that has been said on L:GF numerous times.

And it proves itself out again.


Walter is on my list of honest Lizards. Along with Chares, Rene, Steve, FBV and I can go on and on. Don't mess with him.

203 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:33:29pm

re: #202 Cathypop

Walter is on my list of honest Lizards. Along with Chares, Rene, Steve, FBV and I can go on and on. Don't mess with him.

Thanks.

204 Aye Pod  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:33:53pm

re: #188 Walter L. Newton

Jimmah started it, I really don't care. I explained myself honestly.

I didn't 'start' anything. And I accepted your explanation while expressing a certain consternation at your expression of shock etc. But this it seems, just shocked you more.

205 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:33:53pm

re: #159 lostlakehiker

Just a couple of small questions:

"Over the past 25 years temperatures have increased at a rate of 0.190C per decade, in every good agreement with predictions based on greenhouse gas increases."

Is this written in English? What does "in every good agreement" mean? Are there some "not-so-good" agreements, or some "bad" agreements?

"Natural, short- term fluctuations are occurring as usual but there have been no significant changes in the underlying warming trend."

Is this a reference to the fact that cooling has been occuring over the past two years?

"Satellites show great global average sea-level rise (3.4 mm/yr over the past 15 years)"

Wouldn't that be 2 inches in 15 years, or about 1/8 inch per year?

You've never proofread anything, evidently, or you'd see that "every good agreement" is a typo away from "very good agreement", which means, well, very good agreement.

"Natural, short-term fluctuations" means, well, natural short term ups and downs. Amazingly, AGW is not the only influence on the weather. Solar forcing increases during times of intense sunspot activity and decreases during times of low sunspot activity, such as the last several years. A chance volcanic eruption can cool the climate for a few years. A chance big snowstorm late in winter can lay down a blanket of snow that delays spring for another week. The climate has never, ever, moved along a nice straight clean trend-line. It never will. Not if you measure day by day, or even year by year. You have to look at 25-year running averages if you want the trend line to emerge clearly from the noise in the signal.

The 25-year running averages are running uphill pretty convincingly.

As to 3.4 mm per year, that's today's rate. Within this century, rates of 5, 7, or 10 mm per year are not out of the question. But let's stick with 3.4 mm per year. That's 34 cm per century. More than a foot. Laugh if you will, but many areas of the world are at quite modest levels above the sea. Half of Bangladesh lies less than 1 meter up. So 16 percent of Bangladesh goes under as a result of that laughable 34 centimeters. With a population of 160 million, that's 20 million people flooded out. Real funny, eh? These are subsistence farmers. With no land to farm, they'll starve. Either that, or riot or something. Don't think that what happens there makes no difference here. And Bangladesh isn't the only place that will be hurt, and hurt badly. Nor is rising sea level the only problem with AGW.

Who's laughing? I asked a few questions, and I found your tone rather defensive and insulting.

Wouldn't you think that these folks would have proofread the paper? Pretty pathetic, wouldn't you say?

I certainly agree that a 25 year average is more reliable than a 2 year average. But the 2 years just happen to be the last 2 years, so how can that be so easily dismissed?
Also, I would have thought that 1000 year or at least 500 year averages would be better than 25 years. 25 years seems like a drop in the bucket to me, especially considering what is at stake. What do the longer averages show? Do folks cherry-pick their time frames to suit their agendas?

As far as the sea-level rise goes, I think we better get to work on storing a whole lot of fresh water from the melting ice in inland reservoirs. For starters, let's capture the fresh water from the melting icebergs. Maybe that can help to slow down the sea-level problem and green some deserts too.

206 The Left  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:33:58pm

re: #197 Walter L. Newton

And considering that fact that you did, I will add you and Jimmah to my list under the same category as Ludwig. I was simply being honest, Jimmah was the one who questioned my comment in the way he did. I didn't challenge him. And then when I give a honest and balanced answer, you two play tag team and down ding.

Like I said in my long comment, it all has to do with the company you keep, that has been said on L:GF numerous times.

And it proves itself out again.

I really don't get why you're so angry, or taking this so personally. Seemed to me he was being honest with you as well, and this is more of a misunderstanding. Why else are you so injured you're talking of lists and 'the company you keep'?
Anyway, add me to whatever list you like; I won't be taking it personally and I'll still upding you as usual, just as I have been.

207 Pepper Fox  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:34:56pm

re: #189 ryannon

Sorry 'bout that. And this?


[Video]

There we go, thanks!

208 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:34:57pm

re: #164 Bagua

Who knew fighting Climate Change would also lead to more prostitution?

Ho, ho, ho.

209 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:35:39pm

re: #206 iceweasel

I really don't get why you're so angry, or taking this so personally. Seemed to me he was being honest with you as well, and this is more of a misunderstanding. Why else are you so injured you're talking of lists and 'the company you keep'?
Anyway, add me to whatever list you like; I won't be taking it personally and I'll still upding you as usual, just as I have been.

Ah, I'm not angry in the least. Disappointed, but not angry. Surprised, no, I'm a big boy, this kind of stuff usually shakes out and comes clean eventually.

210 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:36:26pm

OT Time:

Time for the latest from James Taranto,

Great Moments in Socialized Medicine

If you're an Englishman and you have colon cancer, you're out of luck, reports London's Daily Mail:

Trials show Avastin can extend life by almost two years.
But the Government's rationing body, Nice, says it is not cost-effective. . . .
Last week Nice rejected the use of a liver cancer drug on the NHS.
Around 35,000 Britons develop bowel cancer each year, of which 4,000-5,000 with advanced cancer could benefit from the drug.
Avastin, also known as bevacizumab, costs around £18,000 [about $30,000] for a course of ten months' treatment given as intravenous infusion with chemotherapy. . . .

But the complex formula used by the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence, which looks at quality of life and overall cost effectiveness, says the annual cost is £36,000.

This breaks the maximum limit set by Nice of £30,000--a figure which has not changed in ten years despite inflation.

Even Canada, Australia and several Continental European countries with socialized medicine let patients have Avastin. According to former Enron adviser Paul Krugman, "In Britain, the government itself runs the hospitals and employs the doctors. We've all heard scare stories about how that works in practice; these stories are false." Isn't that NICE?

211 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:37:36pm

re: #204 Jimmah

I didn't 'start' anything. And I accepted your explanation while expressing a certain consternation at your expression of shock etc. But this it seems, just shocked you more.

You really like to bait people, don't you?

212 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:37:54pm

re: #184 Fenway_Nation

And Direct TV hates ... PUPPIES!!!

(Oh man I sure hope most of you have seen that commercial!!)

213 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:38:04pm

Forgive my presumptuousness, but can we please stop squabbling?
/falls off soapbox.

214 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:38:08pm

re: #204 Jimmah

I didn't 'start' anything. And I accepted your explanation while expressing a certain consternation at your expression of shock etc. But this it seems, just shocked you more.

Shocked, no, it was not unexpected at all. I saw the same thing the other night on the "Ludwig thinks all conservatives are like North Koreans." The truth usually comes out like this.

215 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:38:08pm

re: #211 Spare O'Lake

You really like to bait people, don't you?

Or contradict himself.

216 reine.de.tout  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:38:15pm

re: #166 Spare O'Lake

Wow. Are the Louisiana Wetlands fresh water or salt water? What about the effects of erosion from wave action and winds?

The "Ecology" section of this wiki article explains some of the issues, briefly and in an understandable way.

217 Only The Lurker Knows  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:38:44pm

OT

Charles, Is there any way to "nudge" a hatchling to look at the end of a thread to see if someone has responded to their response(s)? If not, may I respectfully request such a feature.

Bubblehead II

218 The Left  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:39:34pm

re: #214 Walter L. Newton

Shocked, no, it was not unexpected at all. I saw the same thing the other night on the "Ludwig thinks all conservatives are like North Koreans." The truth usually comes out like this.


That's not right, Walter. I don't think even LVQ thinks that, and neither Jimmah nor I think that, and I'm really getting tired of people pretending that I do.

219 BartB  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:39:46pm

re: #179 freetoken

Ice melt (either in Greenland or Antarctica) is not necessarily a linear phenomenon.

I suggest that it is not monotonic, either.

220 Aye Pod  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:40:17pm

re: #197 Walter L. Newton

And considering that fact that you did, I will add you and Jimmah to my list under the same category as Ludwig. I was simply being honest, Jimmah was the one who questioned my comment in the way he did. I didn't challenge him. And then when I give a honest and balanced answer, you two play tag team and down ding.

Like I said in my long comment, it all has to do with the company you keep, that has been said on L:GF numerous times.

And it proves itself out again.

Big screaming match made out of nothing, Walter. I just read your comment a certain way, and assumed you were an AGW skeptic. And there was in my mind a certain amount of doubt - that's why my first comment ends with a question : "Should I?" That left plenty of room for a civilly phrased correction. Unfortunately you instead choose the path of loopiness.

221 Bagua  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:40:20pm

re: #202 Cathypop

Walter is on my list of honest Lizards. Along with Chares, Rene, Steve, FBV and I can go on and on. Don't mess with him.

Walter is most certainly on my list of honest Lizards as well.

222 ryannon  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:40:40pm

re: #219 BartB

I suggest that it is not monotonic, either.

Nor hydroponic.

223 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:40:45pm

re: #218 iceweasel

That's not right, Walter. I don't think even LVQ thinks that, and neither Jimmah nor I think that, and I'm really getting tired of people pretending that I do.

I'm not pretending.

224 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:41:15pm

re: #220 Jimmah

Big screaming match made out of nothing, Walter. I just read your comment a certain way, and assumed you were an AGW skeptic. And there was in my mind a certain amount of doubt - that's why my first comment ends with a question : "Should I?" That left plenty of room for a civilly phrased correction. Unfortunately you instead choose the path of loopiness.

I chose the path of honesty, big difference.

225 The Left  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:41:28pm

re: #223 Walter L. Newton

I'm not pretending.

If you are asserting that I believe that, then you're wrong.

226 albusteve  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:41:45pm

some people need to let the chips fall where they may...lick your wounds and move ahead and quit talking every incident to death

227 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:41:56pm

re: #220 Jimmah

re: #218 iceweasel

Now I'm done with it, you two may have the last say if you feel the need.

228 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:42:02pm

re: #202 Cathypop

I agree.

229 Aye Pod  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:42:10pm

re: #211 Spare O'Lake

You really like to bait people, don't you?

Ironic, given that is precisely what you are doing here with this comment.

But no, actually, I've been trying to defuse something.

230 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:42:50pm

re: #218 iceweasel

That's not right, Walter. I don't think even LVQ thinks that,

LVQ came right out and said so himself.

and neither Jimmah nor I think that, and I'm really getting tired of people pretending that I do.

Umm...so you weren't encouraging him when he started flying off the rails?

Coulda fooled me.

231 The Left  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:43:08pm

re: #227 Walter L. Newton

re: #218 iceweasel

Now I'm done with it, you two may have the last say if you feel the need.

I've nothing more to say. I'm updinging you for dropping it.

232 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:43:12pm

BBL!

233 Aye Pod  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:43:57pm

re: #227 Walter L. Newton

re: #218 iceweasel

Now I'm done with it, you two may have the last say if you feel the need.

What's up Walter, is this discussion getting too reasonable for your comfort?

234 ryannon  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:44:17pm

Bad moon rising

235 The Left  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:44:24pm

re: #230 Fenway_Nation

Umm...so you weren't encouraging him when he started flying off the rails?

Coulda fooled me.

Then you were fooled. I wasn't even online for about 500 posts of that thread. I still haven't read all of it and don't plan to. So there you go.

237 Bagua  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:45:17pm

re: #220 Jimmah

[...]. Unfortunately you instead choose the path of loopiness.

Walter is not loopy nor unreasonable, neither are you. Don't go there.

238 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:45:28pm

re: #234 ryannon

Bad moon rising


[Video]

Very good. Good music, too.

239 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:46:26pm

re: #235 iceweasel

Then you were fooled. I wasn't even online for about 500 posts of that thread. I still haven't read all of it and don't plan to. So there you go.

Yet you're oh-so accurately informed on what exactly was said and who was in the wrong.

For comments that you didn't even read. Amazing...you'll have to teach me how to do that sometime.

240 Cain  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:46:34pm

re: #172 Charles

They don't. If you read through the stolen emails, there is a LOT of debate and opposing viewpoints. The "shunning" is directed at propagandists and deniers.

There's an army of propagandists on both sides of this thing. But what's the distinction between a denier and someone who's research and interpretation of data differ from this report?

Nobody "fudged" any data.

Tree-ring data was clearly fudged, uncooperative data points dropped with helpful data points preserved. This method is fine if it's disclosed along with an explanation of what's left out and what the justification is. Didn't happen here.

Nobody hid any methods.

Yes they did, see above.

Examples, please?

Quote regarding death of John Daly, noted sceptic: "In an odd way this is cheering news." Goulish by any standard.

Multiple references to the influencing of a particluar science journal not to publish anything contrary to climate change orthodoxy by Michaels or Gray or be shunned itself.

The real act of desperation is stealing emails, picking through them to find the ones that can be cast as "damning," then releasing them right before the Copenhagen summit in a very clear attempt to delegitimize the summit itself. And even with all the cherry-picking, what they came up with is very, very weak stuff indeed.

I don't like hackers or thieves but I dislike being manipulated and ultimately harmed by power-mad politicians and their paid sycophants even less. I believe what these emails have revealed is stronger stuff than you do. I certainly don't want it swept under the rug. Thus all the comments. In any case, I've had a deep respect for you ever since you took CBS to task for their shenanigans. Guess that's why this fires me up more than something usually could.

241 Bagua  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:47:05pm

re: #230 Fenway_Nation

Umm...so you weren't encouraging him when he started flying off the rails?

Coulda fooled me.

iceweasels role was minor, she mostly dings up or down based upon the stand on the issue. She is not responsible for LVQ's bad behaviour nor condoning it.

242 freetoken  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:47:59pm

Another issue with which to wrestle is fatalism. Several people here seem to be arguing for a fatalistic approach.

This is very counterproductive to personal and social welfare, IMO. Better to light a single candle than curse the darkness, etc.

In the last 4 decades the rise in environmental awareness has led to some very positive developments in the limitations of certain kinds of pollution and harmful activities.

Thanks to the work of the "green revolution", that is, the adaptation of advanced technology to agriculture, the world has kept the starvation of billions at bay, though hundreds of millions still go hungry.

To dismiss the idea of success in undertaking large projects is not warranted, IMO.

Moving energy production to non-fossil fuels is possible, though a big challenge. It can be done. Whether we will or not is up to our courage.

243 Digital Display  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:48:36pm

Did I tell you guys about the coolest bumper sticker I saw the other day?
Jesus Loves you
Everybody else thinks you are an asshole..

I almost wrecked.. How do you explain that to the cops?

244 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:48:49pm

re: #233 Jimmah

What's up Walter, is this discussion getting too reasonable for your comfort?

No, but I'm adult enough to have had my say, listened to you and Ice and be done with it. Works for me.

245 The Left  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:49:01pm

re: #239 Fenway_Nation

Yet you're oh-so accurately informed on what exactly was said and who was in the wrong.


I guess you're just pulling stuff out of your ass now, huh?
Don't bother addressing me further about it.

246 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:49:04pm

re: #242 freetoken

.
In the last 4 decades the rise in environmental awareness has led to some very positive developments in the limitations of certain kinds of pollution and harmful activities.

And it's being poo-poohed as insufficient.

247 Only The Lurker Knows  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:49:33pm

All of you do do know, that regardless of the final outcome of this debate, we are all going to die, no if ands or or buts about it.

Feeling low tonight

248 Racer X  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:49:48pm

This is so 3rd grade.

And it was so peaceful here yesterday.

249 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:50:20pm

re: #229 Jimmah

Ironic, given that is precisely what you are doing here with this comment.

But no, actually, I've been trying to defuse something.

I guess I'm just an ironic guy.


(ignore the words and enjoy the music)
250 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:50:23pm

re: #248 Racer X

This is so 3rd grade.

And it was so peaceful here yesterday.

i apologize if I was being annoying to the others on this thread.

251 albusteve  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:50:26pm

meanwhile...the climate is killing Africans...

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

but it does not explain why in the hot and arid ME they have been killing each other for a couple of thousand years

252 Cathypop  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:50:59pm

re: #243 HoosierHoops

Did I tell you guys about the coolest bumper sticker I saw the other day?
Jesus Loves you
Everybody else thinks you are an asshole..

I almost wrecked.. How do you explain that to the cops?


That's better than the one my grandson gave me "Silence is golden, Duct tape is silver" To this day he and his brother are scared to death of duct tape. Need I say more? And I had permission from their parents to use it!

253 freetoken  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:51:15pm

re: #246 Fenway_Nation

And it's being poo-poohed as insufficient.

It is not being poo-poohed.

It is insufficient, as there are two very, very large elephants in the room:
(1) anthropogenic climate change;
(2) anthropogenic extinction of numerous species.

254 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:51:30pm

re: #245 iceweasel

I guess you're just pulling stuff out of your ass now, huh?
Don't bother addressing me further about it.

The part where you said you were sure that wasn't what LVQ meant? Even tho' you didn't bother reading his unhinged commentary in his entirety?

That was pulled out of somebody's ass, but it wasn't mine.

255 Bagua  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:51:30pm

re: #248 Racer X

This is so 3rd grade.

And it was so peaceful here yesterday.

Agreed, let's put paid to all personality based squabbling and return to civil debate.

256 albusteve  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:51:44pm

re: #250 Walter L. Newton

i apologize if I was being annoying to the others on this thread.

I want a cookie now...

257 Aye Pod  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:52:23pm

re: #237 Bagua

Walter is not loopy nor unreasonable, neither are you. Don't go there.

I don't mean to suggest that Walter is an unreasonable person generally. I just don't think he has been reasonable in this particular discussion. It looks to me he was looking for a fight, and having all grounds for a fight neutralised, saw no reason to hang around. That is what I meant by my comment. I'd certainly much rather clear this up than give cause for further bad feeling. I hope I can catch Walter in a better mood some other time and do just that.

258 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:52:26pm

re: #251 albusteve

meanwhile...the climate is killing Africans...

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

but it does not explain why in the hot and arid ME they have been killing each other for a couple of thousand years

Too much heaven on their minds.

259 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:52:31pm

re: #243 HoosierHoops

That one's been around for awhile. It was on a shelf when I first saw it, so I didn't have to worry about wrecking.

260 Cathypop  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:53:06pm

re: #247 Bubblehead II

All of you do do know, that regardless of the final outcome of this debate, we are all going to die, no if ands or or buts about it.

Feeling low tonight

Please don't feel low. Yes we all will die but there are loved ones to remain who will cherish memories and miss their loved ones.

261 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:53:23pm

re: #259 Fenway_Nation

That one's been around for awhile. It was on a shelf when I first saw it, so I didn't have to worry about wrecking.

Well, by that point your car was already in their house...
/:)

262 albusteve  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:53:27pm

re: #241 Bagua

iceweasels role was minor, she mostly dings up or down based upon the stand on the issue. She is not responsible for LVQ's bad behaviour nor condoning it.

updinging some one elses belligerent and mean comments is in fact condoning that behavior...that's what the upding does, it supports the post

263 Cato the Elder  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:53:50pm

re: #199 Obdicut

The "A" in AGW tells us that, and tells us that it's not hubris.

The "A" in AGW tells us that blind, groping, selfish, shortsighted humanity caused it. We did not do it on purpose. It was not controlled. It was unintentional.

My understanding of blind, groping, selfish, shortsighted humanity is that we can't control ourselves, individually or in groups, long enough to consciously alter the planetary climate. To believe otherwise is hubris or at the very least pathological optimism.

Enjoy your reading. I hope that our scientists and engineers and everyone else are able to meet your criteria. I do hope that you don't simply stop thinking about the topic. That's never a good course of action.

Why think about things I can do nothing to change? It's like worrying about that meteor that will eventually strike.

I leave it to the rest of you. Yes, I'm that selfish. At least I'm not blind to that.

264 Cathypop  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:54:30pm

re: #256 albusteve

I want a cookie now...

Chocolate chip or peanut butter?

265 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:54:31pm

re: #261 Varek Raith

Well, by that point your car was already in their house...
/:)


"We should probably exchange insurance information. I have none."

- Homer Simpson

266 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:55:10pm

Where is Ludwig? He hasn't posted for a couple of days, but he hasn't been banned.

267 freetoken  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:55:24pm

re: #263 Cato the Elder

Why think about things I can do nothing to change?

And here I thought I was the doomer...

268 The Left  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:55:26pm

re: #254 Fenway_Nation

The part where you said you were sure that wasn't what LVQ meant? Even tho' you didn't bother reading his unhinged commentary in his entirety?That was pulled out of somebody's ass, but it wasn't mine.

I know LVQ, Fenway. As in, apart from his comments of LGF. I know something of what he is like as a person, rather than just an pseudoanonymous commentator.

Yeah, I'd say there's an ass involved here. That would be you, acting like one.

Let's drop it, ok?

269 albusteve  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:55:31pm

re: #264 Cathypop

Chocolate chip or peanut butter?

Oreo, and make it snappy

270 Racer X  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:56:02pm

re: #250 Walter L. Newton

i apologize if I was being annoying to the others on this thread.

No need for an apology, Walter.

271 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:56:12pm

re: #269 albusteve

Oreo, and make it snappy

I sense an incoming *whack* in your future.
/

272 reine.de.tout  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:56:35pm

re: #250 Walter L. Newton

i apologize if I was being annoying to the others on this thread.

Wasn't you.

273 ryannon  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:56:37pm

re: #266 Alouette

Where is Ludwig? He hasn't posted for a couple of days, but he hasn't been banned.

autobahned?

274 jaunte  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:56:51pm

re: #264 Cathypop

This one is safe: Image: oreo_Full1.jpg

275 Cathypop  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:57:17pm

re: #269 albusteve

Oreo, and make it snappy

I don't do oreo and I don't do snappy!
Keep it up and you will get crappy store bought ginger snaps! With no milk!

277 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:57:52pm

re: #266 Alouette

Where is Ludwig? He hasn't posted for a couple of days, but he hasn't been banned.

I haven't seen him either. Considering the hacked emails and documents, pro or con on that subject, I would have suspected that he would have weighed in on that subject by now.

278 Racer X  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:58:22pm

re: #268 iceweasel

I know LVQ, Fenway. As in, apart from his comments of LGF. I know something of what he is like as a person, rather than just an pseudoanonymous commentator.

Yeah, I'd say there's an ass involved here. That would be you, acting like one.

Let's drop it, ok?

"You're an ass. Lets drop it now ok?"

Grow the fuck up.

279 The Left  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:58:24pm

re: #277 Walter L. Newton

I haven't seen him either. Considering the hacked emails and documents, pro or con on that subject, I would have suspected that he would have weighed in on that subject by now.

He's busy offline.

280 Cathypop  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:58:39pm

re: #276 Ojoe

Very nice.
Thank You!

282 The Left  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:59:42pm

re: #278 Racer X

"You're an ass. Lets drop it now ok?"

Grow the fuck up.

Well, you're certainly acting very mature and like someone who wants civil discussion. I guess I won't be learning from your example anytime soon.

283 Ojoe  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 4:59:45pm

re: #280 Cathypop

It is a fine mountain range, the San Gabriels.

You are welcome.

284 Cathypop  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:00:04pm

re: #278 Racer X

"You're an ass. Lets drop it now ok?"

Grow the fuck up.

I doubt very much that growing up is possible for weasel.

285 brookly red  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:00:10pm

re: #278 Racer X

"You're an ass. Lets drop it now ok?"

Grow the fuck up.

ain't gonna happen...

286 Bagua  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:00:21pm

re: #257 Jimmah

I don't mean to suggest that Walter is an unreasonable person generally. I just don't think he has been reasonable in this particular discussion. It looks to me he was looking for a fight, and having all grounds for a fight neutralised, saw no reason to hang around. That is what I meant by my comment. I'd certainly much rather clear this up than give cause for further bad feeling. I hope I can catch Walter in a better mood some other time and do just that.

That sounds reasonable, let's keep it that way and leave out any derogatory comments.

287 Varek Raith  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:00:39pm

Well then, BBL.
/can't we all just get along??? :P

288 Cathypop  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:01:00pm

re: #283 Ojoe

It is a fine mountain range, the San Gabriels.

You are welcome.

Just keep the pictures coming Ojoe.

289 Racer X  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:02:14pm

BBL

When the twins aren't around.

290 ryannon  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:02:43pm
291 The Left  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:03:29pm

re: #284 Cathypop

I doubt very much that growing up is possible for weasel.

Says the person who has never once dared to address me or take issue with my positions in anyway other than downdinging me -- until now.

Thanks, but you were right all along when you assumed I wouldn't be interested in your opinion on anything.

292 Aye Pod  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:04:03pm

re: #284 Cathypop

Anything to offer beyond your obvious and obnoxious, not to say cowardly baiting, Cathypop? I say cowardly because I don't recall you ever engaging either myself of iceweasel in debate, yet here you are full of grievance, looking to participate in a pile-on.

293 cliffster  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:04:41pm

Is it just me, or are those turds floating around in this punchbowl?

294 Bagua  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:04:43pm

re: #262 albusteve

updinging some one elses belligerent and mean comments is in fact condoning that behavior...that's what the upding does, it supports the post

I know, I often feel the same way, but in iceweasel's case I believe she is more motivated by the issue, not the behaviour.

295 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:05:46pm

YUCK!

This is just distasteful.
Wear yourselves out, BBL.

296 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:05:50pm

re: #288 Cathypop

Just keep the pictures coming Ojoe.

All my local web cams look the same, mountains, snow, pine trees, snow, icy roads, snow... get the picture.

297 The Left  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:05:58pm

re: #292 Jimmah

heh.

Let me not to the marriage of true minds
Admit impediments. Love is not love
Which alters when it alteration finds,
Or bends with the remover to remove:
Oh, no! it is an ever-fixéd mark,
That looks on tempests and is never shaken;
It is the star to every wandering bark,
Whose worth's unknown, although his height be taken.
Love's not time's fool, though rosy lips and cheeks
Within his bending sickle's compass come'
Love alters not with his brief hours and weeks,
But bears it out even to the edge of doom.
If this be error and upon me proved,
I never writ, nor no man ever loved.

298 reine.de.tout  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:06:34pm

re: #275 Cathypop

I don't do oreo and I don't do snappy!
Keep it up and you will get crappy store bought ginger snaps! With no milk!

OMG!
Ginger snaps must be eaten with warm apple cider, and nothing else!

299 Cathypop  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:06:46pm

re: #291 iceweasel

Says the person who has never once dared to address me or take issue with my positions in anyway other than downdinging me -- until now.

Thanks, but you were right all along when you assumed I wouldn't be interested in your opinion on anything.

Because I have been trying very hard to ignore your childish chatter but when you and your friend Jimmah attack Walter who is an honest lizard then I join in. Suck it up and grow up.

300 brookly red  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:06:47pm

re: #293 cliffster

Is it just me, or are those turds floating around in this punchbowl?

passive aggressive turds, oh my...

301 Ojoe  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:07:13pm

re: #288 Cathypop

Once or twice a day ...

I grew up at the foot of the San Gabriels & the Towercam is my default opening page on Safari, & when it's beautiful I post it here.

If I quit doing this it will be because I've croaked.

302 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:07:15pm

re: #293 cliffster

Is it just me, or are those turds floating around in this punchbowl?

In the 1600's you could walk down the halls of the Palace of Versailles and find both human and animal feces on the floor. It was common place.

303 The Left  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:07:45pm

re: #294 Bagua

I know, I often feel the same way, but in iceweasel's case I believe she is more motivated by the issue, not the behaviour.

I try to overlook the content that adds nothing (namecalling, etc) and ding on the issue. I also ding lots of things I don't agree with if they're wellwritten, if they make me laugh, if they're thoughtful-- I have a liberal upding policy.

304 Ojoe  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:08:08pm

re: #290 ryannon

A fine song by the talking heads.

305 Digital Display  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:08:23pm

re: #298 reine.de.tout

OMG!
Ginger snaps must be eaten with warm apple cider, and nothing else!

You bring back memories of eating cookies and milk as a little kid and watching John Wayne Westerns on Saturday mornings..
Those were the days my friend..Those were the days

306 cliffster  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:08:44pm

re: #302 Walter L. Newton

In the 1600's you could walk down the halls of the Palace of Versailles and find both human and animal feces on the floor. It was common place.

Good to know. /

307 The Left  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:08:53pm

re: #299 Cathypop

Because I have been trying very hard to ignore your childish chatter but when you and your friend Jimmah attack Walter who is an honest lizard then I join in. Suck it up and grow up.

You're inventing a lie that I am 'attacking' Walter. That isn't happening. I happen to like Walter very much. So you are the one who is going to have to 'suck it up'.

308 Cathypop  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:09:01pm

re: #301 Ojoe

Once or twice a day ...

I grew up at the foot of the San Gabriels & the Towercam is my default opening page on Safari, & when it's beautiful I post it here.

If I quit doing this it will be because I've croaked.

Then I will cry. Don't you dare croak! I have spoken!

309 albusteve  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:09:07pm

re: #297 iceweasel

heh.

Let me not to the marriage of true minds
Admit impediments. Love is not love
Which alters when it alteration finds,
Or bends with the remover to remove:
Oh, no! it is an ever-fixéd mark,
That looks on tempests and is never shaken;
It is the star to every wandering bark,
Whose worth's unknown, although his height be taken.
Love's not time's fool, though rosy lips and cheeks
Within his bending sickle's compass come'
Love alters not with his brief hours and weeks,
But bears it out even to the edge of doom.
If this be error and upon me proved,
I never writ, nor no man ever loved.

nuptials!

310 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:09:24pm

re: #298 reine.de.tout

OMG!
Ginger snaps must be eaten with warm apple cider, and nothing else!

Trivia... ZuZu, George Bailey's youngest duaghter (the one with the "petals") in the movie "It's A Wonderful Life" was named after a ginger snap product called ZuZu's Ginger Snaps.

There is a subtle product placement line in the movie when George say "ZuZu. my little ginger snap..."

Betcha didn't know that?

311 Cathypop  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:09:59pm

re: #305 HoosierHoops

You bring back memories of eating cookies and milk as a little kid and watching John Wayne Westerns on Saturday mornings..
Those were the days my friend..Those were the days

Milk, cookies and John Wayne. The best Saturdays!!!

312 Bagua  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:10:00pm

re: #303 iceweasel

I try to overlook the content that adds nothing (namecalling, etc) and ding on the issue. I also ding lots of things I don't agree with if they're wellwritten, if they make me laugh, if they're thoughtful-- I have a liberal upding policy.


Yes I agree with that. Sometimes I too gripe about your dings but they are not vengeful nor dishonest, nor do you condone or encourage bad behaviour.

313 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:10:32pm

re: #307 iceweasel

You're inventing a lie that I am 'attacking' Walter. That isn't happening. I happen to like Walter very much. So you are the one who is going to have to 'suck it up'.

Really, leave it alone, I have. Cathy, thank you, but don't keep getting hurt, ok?

314 albusteve  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:11:02pm

re: #298 reine.de.tout

OMG!
Ginger snaps must be eaten with warm apple cider, and nothing else!

the G snap stunned me into a stupor...I feel threatened somehow...but vodka and warm apple cider sounds good

315 cliffster  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:11:14pm

re: #310 Walter L. Newton

Wow, you know about ginger snaps and 400 year old feces. A true Renaissance Man!

316 [deleted]  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:12:05pm
317 [deleted]  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:13:17pm
318 The Left  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:13:32pm

Oh this is awful-- from monday:
Bachmann, Coulter, Gingrich Make the Rounds at Restoration Weekend

restoration weekend is organised by David Horowitz, here is the guestlist:

Newt Gingrich
Ann Coulter
Fred Thompson
Dutch politician Geert Wilders
Phyllis Schlafly
Jonah Goldberg
Frank Gaffney
Steve Moore
Andrew McCarthy
Rep. Ed Royce (R-Calif.)
Rep. John Boehner (R-Ohio)
Rep. Thaddeus McCotter (R-Mich.)
Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-Minn.)
Liz Cheney
Sen. Jim DeMint (R-S.C.)
ACORN videographers James O’Keefe and Hannah Giles
Democratic pollster-turned-Fox News pundit Pat Caddell

And there is video of the shrieking harpy and Robert Spencer there as well.

319 Cathypop  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:13:41pm

Night Lizards. Gotta work on goodies for the Thanks Giving dinner.
See Ya tomorrow morning with strong coffee.

320 albusteve  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:13:54pm

re: #312 Bagua

Yes I agree with that. Sometimes I too gripe about your dings but they are not vengeful nor dishonest, nor do you condone or encourage bad behaviour.

whatever...btw, I was wondering...how much more can possibly be said about this dinging, piling on business?...should I get reinvolved?

321 Only The Lurker Knows  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:14:13pm

re: #260 Cathypop

Can't help it. Mortality has been creeping up on me lately. (much deleted)

322 The Left  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:14:41pm

re: #312 Bagua

Yes I agree with that. Sometimes I too gripe about your dings but they are not vengeful nor dishonest, nor do you condone or encourage bad behaviour.

Thanks, appreciate it.

323 [deleted]  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:14:49pm
324 freetoken  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:16:07pm

On Topic:

Oceans Absorbing Carbon Dioxide More Slowly, Yale Scientist Finds

The world’s oceans are absorbing less carbon dioxide (CO2), a Yale geophysicist has found after pooling data taken over the past 50 years. With the oceans currently absorbing over 40 percent of the CO2 emitted by human activity, this could quicken the pace of climate change, according to the study, which appears in the November 25 issue of Geophysical Research Letters.

325 Racer X  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:18:07pm

Koreans make plastics without fossil fuel chemicals

A team of South Korean scientists have produced the polymers used for everyday plastics through bioengineering, rather than through the use of fossil fuel-based chemicals.

It is believed that the technique may now allow for the production of environmentally-friendly plastic that is biodegradable and low in toxicity.

326 Aye Pod  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:19:01pm

Dang. Knew I shouldn't have quoted that comment.

327 Aye Pod  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:20:57pm

re: #312 Bagua

Yes I agree with that. Sometimes I too gripe about your dings but they are not vengeful nor dishonest, nor do you condone or encourage bad behaviour.

Thanks bagua :) I can testify from personal experience that iceweasel is a good influence.

328 albusteve  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:22:22pm
329 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:22:22pm

re: #297 iceweasel

heh.

Let me not to the marriage of true minds
Admit impediments. Love is not love
Which alters when it alteration finds,
Or bends with the remover to remove:
Oh, no! it is an ever-fixéd mark,
That looks on tempests and is never shaken;
It is the star to every wandering bark,
Whose worth's unknown, although his height be taken.
Love's not time's fool, though rosy lips and cheeks
Within his bending sickle's compass come'
Love alters not with his brief hours and weeks,
But bears it out even to the edge of doom.
If this be error and upon me proved,
I never writ, nor no man ever loved.

Venom, to thy work, buddy

330 Bagua  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:23:39pm

re: #324 freetoken

On Topic:

The nerve of some people! Posting an on topic comment? Outrageous.

331 The Left  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:24:06pm

re: #329 Alouette

Venom, to thy work, buddy

Link won't work for us in the UK. :(

332 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:24:58pm

Geez! A fellow steps away to go and make a useful contribution to the national economy, comes back, sees the Lizards in a frenzy of mutual recrimination and tail-biting, reads on to see the thing progress into full-on righteous hatred, and then you guys more or less reconcile and resume a (semi-adult) discussion of the topic.

What the Hell is wrong with you people?

333 albusteve  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:25:35pm

gimme a little drink...

334 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:26:24pm

Here's my nightly request to please stop the bickering now.

335 dwells38  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:26:27pm

re: #7 Racer X
You can say that again. I think what makes those climate scientists so jumpy is the fact that even those that they have supposedly convinced don't show much urgency. Al Gore himself isn't scaling down his lifestyle that I'm aware nor are hardly any of the limo liberals. Still have big pools, big houses, big TVs in every room, big cars.

And why not? Those countries who signed the Kyoto treaty didn't meet it's goals. And we're planning to let half the world off the hook anyway because hey're "developing" (into GH gas producers LOL!).

So what are we really doing? Falling on our sword and punishing ourselves just because we contributed most of the GH gases so far? And maybe for nothing? Or so Europeans can think warm thoughts about us now that we've all joined hands and decided to sign things we aren't honoring?

I suppose we should keep trying but it doesn't look like this thing will be controlled by behavioral changes. There's too much dough and power at stake. Gonna have to be tech I think.

336 Racer X  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:26:36pm

India tells West to stop eating beef

India has urged the West to give up eating beef to reduce the greenhouse gas emissions responsible for global warming.

The environment minister, Jairam Ramesh, said if the world abandoned beef consumption, emissions would be dramatically reduced and global warming would slow down.
"The solution to cut emissions is to stop eating beef. It leads to emission of methane which is 23 times more potent than carbon dioxide," he said.

337 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:27:48pm

re: #331 iceweasel

Link won't work for us in the UK. :(

Gasp! You ARE in the UK! What was all that hyperventilating about whenever lizard inquired about your spelling and posting time zone habits?

BTW the link is to a video clip of "Hamlet" done "South Park" style. Here's a Canadian site.

338 Bagua  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:27:49pm

re: #334 Charles

Here's my nightly request to please stop the bickering now.

Seconded strongly!

339 cliffster  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:29:35pm

re: #336 Racer X

India tells West to stop eating beef

India has urged the West to give up eating beef to reduce the greenhouse gas emissions responsible for global warming.

The environment minister, Jairam Ramesh, said if the world abandoned beef consumption, emissions would be dramatically reduced and global warming would slow down.
"The solution to cut emissions is to stop eating beef. It leads to emission of methane which is 23 times more potent than carbon dioxide," he said.

So how about a bean ban then? That should solve everything.

340 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:29:45pm

re: #336 Racer X

India tells West to stop eating beef

India has urged the West to give up eating beef to reduce the greenhouse gas emissions responsible for global warming.

The environment minister, Jairam Ramesh, said if the world abandoned beef consumption, emissions would be dramatically reduced and global warming would slow down.
"The solution to cut emissions is to stop eating beef. It leads to emission of methane which is 23 times more potent than carbon dioxide," he said.

What would he have us do, then? I mean, it's not as if the Western diet and eating habits can be changed overnight, or even in the space of one generation, and we get a Hell of a lot of our protein from beef and cattle products. It'd be like asking the Chinese to lay off the soy, or the Japanese to cut down on the fish.

341 albusteve  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:29:51pm

I forgot...Lovin Cup was for Jimmah, peace

342 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:30:11pm

re: #336 Racer X

India tells West to stop eating beef

India has urged the West to give up eating beef to reduce the greenhouse gas emissions responsible for global warming.

The environment minister, Jairam Ramesh, said if the world abandoned beef consumption, emissions would be dramatically reduced and global warming would slow down.
"The solution to cut emissions is to stop eating beef. It leads to emission of methane which is 23 times more potent than carbon dioxide," he said.

I stopped eating pork 40 years ago.

343 albusteve  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:30:33pm

re: #338 Bagua

Seconded strongly!

Bartender!...make that a double!

344 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:30:33pm

re: #342 Alouette

I stopped eating pork 40 years ago.

Forty, are you?

345 The Left  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:31:25pm

re: #337 Alouette

I moved to Scotland a couple of weeks ago. I already answered you on that point twice before, but I guess you missed it.

346 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:31:29pm

re: #339 cliffster

So how about a bean ban then? That should solve everything.

It would be easier if someone just handed me a list of what I am allowed to do, instead of adding to this ungodly long list of things I should not do.

347 cliffster  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:31:41pm

re: #342 Alouette

I stopped eating pork 40 years ago.

Bacon tastes goood

348 oh_dude  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:31:45pm

Who cares? The World is gonna end in 2012 anyway. It's true, they're even making a movie about it.

349 Racer X  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:32:02pm
Infographic on Pot Tax Revenues

In May, Reason's own Nick Gillespie crunched some numbers (and perhaps a Cheeto or two) on the possible tax revenue from marijuana legalization. Now, some numbers along the same lines, in sexy infographic form!

Nom nom nom!

Revenue!

350 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:32:22pm

re: #348 oh_dude

Who cares? The World is gonna end in 2012 anyway. It's true, they're even making a movie about it.

That's not a movie, that's a documentary film, produced in the future, where the events occurred and were filmed in real-time.

351 recusancy  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:32:28pm

re: #348 oh_dude

Who cares? The World is gonna end in 2012 anyway. It's true, they're even making a movie about it.

That joke's losing its funny real fast.

352 ryannon  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:32:32pm

re: #331 iceweasel

Link won't work for us in the UK. :(

This should work; full episode:

[Link: southpark-zone.blogspot.com...]

353 Cain  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:32:38pm

re: #240 Cain

I don't like hackers or thieves but I dislike being manipulated and ultimately harmed by power-mad politicians and their paid sycophants even less.

Umm... meant to say, "dislike even more". Ten hours of do-it-yourself kitchen remodeling is taking it's toll. Especially when the wifey's standing there tapping her foot as if I won't finish in time for Thanksgiving. Whoever said gimme a drink, seconded.

354 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:33:15pm

re: #348 oh_dude

Who cares? The World is gonna end in 2012 anyway. It's true, they're even making a movie about it.

It's already out.

And no, it's not ending in 2012. I've got the inside line on 2013.

355 Digital Display  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:33:40pm

re: #336 Racer X

India tells West to stop eating beef

India has urged the West to give up eating beef to reduce the greenhouse gas emissions responsible for global warming.

The environment minister, Jairam Ramesh, said if the world abandoned beef consumption, emissions would be dramatically reduced and global warming would slow down.
"The solution to cut emissions is to stop eating beef. It leads to emission of methane which is 23 times more potent than carbon dioxide," he said.

I don't have an issue with that..What I do have an issue with is Indians thinking Cows are Gods.. With that mindset..I dunno..I tune it out...

356 Racer X  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:33:45pm

re: #346 Walter L. Newton

It would be easier if someone just handed me a list of what I am allowed to do, instead of adding to this ungodly long list of things I should not do.

OK. Here is your list:

.

357 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:34:01pm

re: #331 iceweasel

a fellow britlander?

358 The Left  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:34:04pm

re: #352 ryannon

This should work; full episode:

[Link: southpark-zone.blogspot.com...]

Oh fantastic, thanks so much! Such a hassle that the southpark studios site won't work here.

359 dwells38  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:34:39pm

re: #336 Racer X

This would work fine for me. I could go the rest of my life eating turkey burgers, veggie burgers, tofu burgers... It's all good after you slap on some catsup and mustard and lettuce and tomato. YUM!

But do you see the rest of the world going along? You would have to first eradicate the bovine species entirely to have a hope. All it would do is create a black market and or create a boon for the Chinese to corner the beef industry.

360 Bagua  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:35:09pm

Off to club some baby seals for dinner in total disregard for my Carbon Footprint™

Everybody please play nice.


(I'll be back with more denialist talking points later)

361 McSpiff  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:35:13pm

re: #358 iceweasel

You can try [Link: watch.thecomedynetwork.ca...] as well, Not sure if it works outside of Canada or not, but it would be a source for dailyshow, south park, etc.

362 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:35:49pm

re: #355 HoosierHoops

not Gods - special & revered, but not - as far as i recall Gods.

363 recusancy  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:36:13pm

re: #359 dwells38

This would work fine for me. I could go the rest of my life eating turkey burgers, veggie burgers, tofu burgers... It's all good after you slap on some catsup and mustard and lettuce and tomato. YUM!

But do you see the rest of the world going along? You would have to first eradicate the bovine species entirely to have a hope. All it would do is create a black market and or create a boon for the Chinese to corner the beef industry.

Well.. We could end govt subsidies for cattle farmers.

364 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:36:17pm

re: #360 Bagua

Off to club some baby seals for dinner in total disregard for my Carbon Footprint™

Everybody please play nice.

(I'll be back with more denialist talking points later)

You see... you see... there is a real AGW denier... I found one, I found one :)

365 albusteve  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:36:36pm

one a my all time Stones songs...kinda universal
and Bonnie Raitt!...

366 cliffster  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:36:46pm

re: #355 HoosierHoops

I don't have an issue with that..What I do have an issue with is Indians thinking Cows are Gods.. With that mindset..I dunno..I tune it out...

"God this burger is good"

367 Achilles Tang  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:36:51pm

re: #2 brookly red

/how come if I leave my drink on the bar & the ice cubes melt the glass dosen't overflow?


Your sarc can be interpreted as suggesting you know the answer whether correct or wrong. Just pointing that out.

368 dwells38  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:37:06pm

re: #334 Charles

Er...this isn't the argument room? Then this must be abuse! I'll head over to 12a.

369 The Left  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:37:08pm

re: #357 wozzablog

a fellow britlander?

Yep! Sort of. Jimmah is Scottish, I'm American, moved in with him Guy Fawkes night! Getting married next month, and we met right here on lgf. You?

370 Aye Pod  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:37:24pm

re: #341 albusteve

I forgot...Lovin Cup was for Jimmah, peace

Some pipes for ya...

371 Digital Display  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:37:27pm

re: #362 wozzablog

not Gods - special & revered, but not - as far as i recall Gods.

You maybe right..I remember something like that in High School...

372 Wind Rider  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:37:27pm

re: #106 Charles

Yes, the sleepers have awakened.

Now, for the newest bit of propaganda, the executive summary being posted right here, right now (thx, Charles!)

Pretzel logic numero uno -

Even over the past ten years, despite a decrease in solar forcing, the trend continues to be one of warming.

This, in spite of the stabilisation/slight cooling observed for the past 10 year period, lamented by the AGW crowd as lamentably unaccountable. This following the statement in the opening paragraph indicating a 40% increase in CO2 emissions.

Pretzel logic, numero dos - extapolation of scale of sea level rise. 3.4MM/year. Millimeters followed by an extrapolation one order of magnitude HIGHER through the end of the century, which, oh by the way, they insinuate we're already in store for, despite anything we may do with CO2. Being able to measure sea levels to the millimeter is suspicious enough to raise red flags on this one

Gratuitous hysteria shout out number one -

Delay in action risks irreversible damage: Several vulnerable elements in the climate system (e.g. continental ice-sheets. Amazon rainforest, West African monsoon and others) could be pushed towards abrupt or irreversible change if warming continues in a business-as-usual way throughout this century. The risk of transgressing critical thresholds (“tipping points”) increase strongly with ongoing climate change. Thus waiting for higher levels of scientific certainty could mean that some tipping points will be crossed before they are recognized.

paraphrase "if we don't do sumthin, we're all gonna DIE!!1!!, thus exceeding my own personal Godwin's corrollary (see comment in previous thread)

Gratuitous hysteria toss off number two -

The turning point must come soon: If global warming is to be limited to a maximum of 2oC above pre-industrial values, global emissions need to peak between 2015 and 2020 and then decline rapidly. To stabilize climate, a decarbonized global society – with near-zero emissions of CO2 and other long-lived greenhouse gases – need to be reached well within this century. More specifically, the average annual per-capita emissions will have to shrink to well under 1 metric ton CO2 by 2050. This is 80-90% below the per-capita emissions in developed nations in 2000.

To paraphrase, you must commit economic seppuku, right freaking NOW, buckwheat.

No, thank you.

Let's see who put all this together - ah, here we go - prominently displayed among those nodding in agreement to this charade - Michael 'discredited hockey stick' Mann, from the East Anglia CRU.

See, the material that some around here insist upon playing 'three monkeys' about clearly documents an effort to cook up some numbers to fit a narrative - and voila, herewith the final product. While it'll never see the light of an LCD from this portal, the examination of the efforts to jam the mish-mash of unregulated, unstandardized, widely varying data through a new and improved FORTRAN algorithm filter to achieve the politically desirable results is particularly brutal - by the end of the thread I reviewed of some coders picking it apart, they were actually sympathetic to the poor guy at CRU, in over his head, trying to make it work.

This isn't science. It's a power and money grab, using science as a smokescreen.

373 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:37:54pm

re: #369 iceweasel

a scottish cockney

374 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:38:20pm

Honest to Pete!

So, cut out eating beef. Fine. With what shall I replace this protein source? Remember, Westerners aren't used to consuming large quantities of bulky vegetables and such, and a good many of us (my #2 daughter) can't do the soy thing at all. That leaves grains and legumes. We'd have to farm those at an even heavier rate than we do now, and I'd bet there'd be some negative consequence to that (higher food prices in the developing world, for one thing).

So, reduce CO2 emissions from electrical generation facilities. Fine. So we sit in the cold and dark and pay outrageously elevated utility bills until some new generating system (approved by environmental, "Greens", anti-nuke neurotics, and everybody else) comes on line? And folks in the developing world die in the dirt for want of refrigeration and electricity?

Seriously, I realize that AGW is Teh Sukk, but the proposed alternatives look like little more than a misanthropic tax-collector's wet-dream version of a planetary snuff film.

375 freetoken  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:39:40pm

re: #372 Wind Rider

If you spent half the time studying actual science rather than memorizing denier slogans you would be much better off.

376 ryannon  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:40:16pm

re: #355 HoosierHoops

I don't have an issue with that..What I do have an issue with is Indians thinking Cows are Gods.. With that mindset..I dunno..I tune it out...

Sacred, but not gods.

"Although Hindus follow no single set of rules, reverence for cows can be found throughout the religion's major texts. Some trace the cow's sacred status back to Lord Krishna, one of the faith's most important figures. He is said to have appeared 5,000 years ago as a cowherd, and is often described as bala-gopala, "the child who protects the cows." Another of Krishna's holy names, Govinda, means "one who brings satisfaction to the cows." Other scriptures identify the cow as the "mother" of all civilization, its milk nurturing the population."

[Link: www.pbs.org...]

377 PowerFlip  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:40:17pm

What percentage of the current rising temps that can be directly attributed to the earth's natural cooling and warming cycles?

378 brookly red  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:41:05pm

re: #367 Naso Tang

Your sarc can be interpreted as suggesting you know the answer whether correct or wrong. Just pointing that out.

365 comments later? I invoke the statue of limitations...
wass up Tang?

379 lostlakehiker  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:41:08pm

re: #175 Walter L. Newton

You must have me confused with someone else. I am not a skeptic, get that straight right now. The actual science behind it all is a bit confusing to me, even though I have read most of what Charles, Ludwig and others have linked to.

Occasionally, you will find me not swallowing hook, line and sinker every new pronouncement that comes my way, but I never just dismiss the issue out of hand.

People like Ludwig carries no force with me. Just as Palin's association with certain people decrease her credibility, Ludwig's attitude is enough for me not to care one wit about any of the science he brings to the table. Not that the science he references and discusses is problematic, but he is, and I have no respect for him. Not more than I have any respect for Palin and others, considering the kind of people they cavort with.

And I will play devils advocate as much as the next one when I come across someone who treat this science like it was a religion.

But deny, no I do not deny, even though I don't fully understand.

And yes, your statement to me offends, very much so. But, I suspect as you expected no better from me, I didn't ecxpect any better from you.

So, we are even, aren't we?

Ludwig is a scientist. He's also a prickly guy, and not inclined to suffer fools gladly. You are welcome to find this personally off-putting, but it doesn't make him wrong on the science.

The science stands or falls on its only logical and evidential merits. The merits of AGW are very strong. Glaciers cannot be made to un-retreat by cherry picking quotes from emails at East Anglia University. The glacier was there, way down the valley, but now it ends here, well up the slope, and tomorrow, it'll be a cirque glacier, snug against its mountain wall. Or gone. And this is happening pretty much everywhere there are glaciers. CO2 levels were at 280. They were at 280 1000 years ago, and 2000 years ago, and 5000 years ago. Now they're at 380 and rising. (380 parts per million.) Not only are these levels rising, the rate at which they continue to rise is rising. This isn't a result of a sudden spate of volcanic activity. It's us. East Anglia emails cannot unwrite this fact that we have written on our own atmosphere.

380 Aye Pod  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:41:16pm

re: #373 wozzablog

a scottish cockney

Ah - Scottish roots/moved to London when you were very young?

381 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:41:20pm

Is it safe to come out yet?

Tangential to the thread, but part of it:

Climate change will drive tech. Tech will require new industry. We need the good paying jobs tech provides for a shrinking middle class or we are toast as an economy.

Here's an interesting essay. Do we lead or wait for the Chinese do it?

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

382 Digital Display  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:41:50pm

re: #369 iceweasel

Yep! Sort of. Jimmah is Scottish, I'm American, moved in with him Guy Fawkes night! Getting married next month, and we met right here on lgf. You?

I expect pictures! *wink*
Good luck...Remember when last summer I told you about the topless girls at the Spanish F1 races? You were a good sport..
Crap..Did I just post that?

383 Only The Lurker Knows  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:41:59pm

Time to invoke the "Iron Fist" rule.

(((Mandy)))
(((Sharmuta)))


((Everybody else))

Night.

RE Charles #334

Good luck with that. Has Stinkey tried hearding a bunch of cats?


384 Obdicut  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:43:20pm

re: #263 Cato the Elder


My understanding of blind, groping, selfish, shortsighted humanity is that we can't control ourselves, individually or in groups, long enough to consciously alter the planetary climate. To believe otherwise is hubris or at the very least pathological optimism.

We've already done so, though, with the hole in the ozone layer. We've already achieved this. We've achieved it in a thousand other ways, as well. That we've failed many times does not mean that we haven't also succeeded.

We can clearly intentionally alter the climate.

Why think about things I can do nothing to change? It's like worrying about that meteor that will eventually strike.

I leave it to the rest of you. Yes, I'm that selfish. At least I'm not blind to that.

I am concerned about the meteor. To avoid that, we'll have to become spacefaring. To achieve that, we'll need carbon-neutral technology in spades.

Humanity has always been moving towards the stars. Whether we make it is up to, well, humanity.

There are lots like you, who are not going to engage with this problem. I know that. I wish you would, but I cannot, and will not, force you to do so. The solution obviously needs to be one that can accommodate the position of people like you-- or at least influence you to change in non-draconian ways.

385 albusteve  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:43:56pm

in my neck of the woods the Sun rules...we are here only because it allows us to be...so...

386 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:44:38pm

re: #384 Obdicut

"I am concerned about the meteor. To avoid that, we'll have to become spacefaring. To achieve that, we'll need carbon-neutral technology in spades.

Humanity has always been moving towards the stars. Whether we make it is up to, well, humanity."


bingo, bingo, bingo! Buy that Lizard a beer and hand him a cigar!

387 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:44:52pm

re: #380 Jimmah

second generation immigrant ;-)

father and his family moved down in '56.

Love london to bits - but i'm a Scot in London, English has never entered my thinking as a nationallity ;-)

388 Racer X  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:44:53pm

Honestly I am OK with a reduction in the consumption of beef. Cattle production is very water intensive for the protein you get out. we would have been better off utilizing wild bison as a food source.

389 Obdicut  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:44:53pm

re: #374 Guanxi88

Well, when you choose the alternatives to appear that way, they're going to appear that way.

390 Obdicut  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:45:46pm

re: #388 Racer X

Also, grass-fed bison is goddamn delicious, though tricky to cook because of the low fat content.

391 The Left  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:47:29pm

re: #387 wozzablog

second generation immigrant ;-)

father and his family moved down in '56.

Love london to bits - but i'm a Scot in London, English has never entered my thinking as a nationallity ;-)

I love London! Scotland is more of a culture shock for me than London. I'm loving it though!

392 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:48:12pm

re: #379 lostlakehiker

I never said his science was wrong, did I? I said "Not that the science he references and discusses is problematic..." didn't I. And I don't have to like him, do I?

393 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:48:16pm

laters y'all.

got to check an install i got running and maybe get some sleep.

394 Achilles Tang  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:48:23pm

re: #372 Wind Rider

Pretzel logic, numero dos - extapolation of scale of sea level rise. 3.4MM/year. Millimeters followed by an extrapolation one order of magnitude HIGHER through the end of the century, which, oh by the way, they insinuate we're already in store for, despite anything we may do with CO2. Being able to measure sea levels to the millimeter is suspicious enough to raise red flags on this one

Actually you are wrong; it is much much more suspicious than that and they are hiding the truth by orders of magnitude because the real measurements are determined to the nanometer level. That is 3449999.99999999 nanometers, more or less. Of course we all know big numbers are more ridiculous than small numbers, don't we? Anyone who think this isn't the ultimate conspiracy by morons for moronic reasons must be a moron.

395 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:48:48pm

re: #389 Obdicut

Well, when you choose the alternatives to appear that way, they're going to appear that way.

There are answers and solution, but none of them seem to be enjoying anything along the lines of state support that the taxation and poverty proposals have.

Frankly, the solutions are not yet known to us. Disregard the whole controversy over the cause of the phenomenon - the effects are real and any civilization or species that denies the incontrovertible fact that their environment can and will become unsuitable is doomed.

Taxing the Hell outta the average guys, and imposing pointless and crippling restrictions on technological developments is guranteed to do nothing and make us all more miserable and impoverished as we slide toward the great culling.

Me? I;m a big fan of bio-char as a carbon sequestration/soil improvement technique. This improves developing world crop yields AND sequesters atmospheric carbon. I'm a huge fan of Kerrick Process for coal to liquids fuels, and think it's criminally stupid to just burn coal when there's so many valuable products to be gotten from it. These things, however, aren't sexy, don't catch the eye, and don't do anything to increase the power of one group of people over another. And so, they're not popular.

396 Aye Pod  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:48:54pm

re: #387 wozzablog

second generation immigrant ;-)

father and his family moved down in '56.

Love london to bits - but i'm a Scot in London, English has never entered my thinking as a nationallity ;-)

Cheers! I love London too, I have to say. The only place that serves better curries than Glasgow, for one thing ;-)

Gien what you just said, I think you'll get a kick out of this: Stuart Lee on identity.

397 Achilles Tang  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:49:24pm

re: #378 brookly red

365 comments later? I invoke the statue of limitations...
wass up Tang?

I have to warm up at the top before taking a deep breath and diving.

Evening.

398 acacia  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:49:40pm

re: #3 Sharmuta

Not the Rapid Arctic Sea Ice Decline mentioned. Actually, brookly red makes a good point. Wouldn't sea ice melting actually decrease sea levels?

399 The Left  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:49:45pm

re: #361 McSpiff

You can try [Link: watch.thecomedynetwork.ca...] as well, Not sure if it works outside of Canada or not, but it would be a source for dailyshow, south park, etc.

It works! Hooray! I can get my Colbert fix. Thanks!

400 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:49:45pm

re: #391 iceweasel

drink next time you both sneak south of the border...?... ;-)

depends where you are from in the states and where you end up in Scotland i guess.

401 albusteve  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:49:55pm

re: #392 Walter L. Newton

I never said his science was wrong, did I? I said "Not that the science he references and discusses is problematic..." didn't I. And I don't have to like him, do I?

I have some science for ya...go change your socks!

402 SteveC  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:50:28pm

re: #394 Naso Tang

Anyone who think this isn't the ultimate conspiracy by morons for moronic reasons must be a moron.

Deep! I'm gonna need a sheet of paper to diagram that sentence!

403 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:50:43pm

re: #401 albusteve

I have some science for ya...go change your socks!

I don't understand you comment, clarify please?

404 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:51:18pm

re: #391 iceweasel

I love London! Scotland is more of a culture shock for me than London. I'm loving it though!

Well, Glasgow certainly more than Edinburgh. Port town/finance town.

She Who Must Be Obeyed and I will be jetting in to the UK December 22nd. Can't wait. She is bringing her new axe. Ceillidh's all around!

405 The Left  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:51:20pm

re: #400 wozzablog

drink next time you both sneak south of the border...?... ;-)


Most definitely! A london lizard meetup would be terrific.
Have a good night. :)

406 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:51:26pm

re: #399 iceweasel

doesn't work for me (sob)

407 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:51:44pm

I'd really like to get LVQ's take on all this. We've tangled, but I don't doubt that he's probably one of the best-informed people here at LGF on the subject.

408 albusteve  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:52:01pm

re: #403 Walter L. Newton

I don't understand you comment, clarify please?

neither did I...I went astray

409 dwells38  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:52:03pm

re: #349 Racer X


You're on a roll RacerX! Yes legalize it and tax the crap out of it.

Pot does almost nothing to the brain (anyone who wrecks their car on pot is eithr ALSO drunk or has some other nervous system problem) ain't no worse and probably not as bad as the carcinogenic tobacco and isn't a gateway to anything other than the pantry (for Doritos's!). Plus it's about as habit-forming as cheeseburgers and fries or internet porn and gaming.

It just seems absurd to have such an innocuous drug villified while a HIGHLY dangerous and addictive drug like achohol flows freely almost on every street corner.

Don't get me wrong. I understand the argument that just because a drug isn't as bad as a legal drug it should be praised and welcomed. But given the fact that our nation and member states are BROKE and can't afford to chase down and incarcerate (much less prevent) all these minor offenders nor have a prayer of a hope to control the resultant black market repercussions such as gangs and violent crime one must make a reasoned and sober decision to legalize I say.

410 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:52:43pm

re: #396 Jimmah

Stewart Lee is the man :-)

411 The Left  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:52:59pm

re: #406 wozzablog

doesn't work for me (sob)

Shit! The advert worked and I thought the video would. Damn them!

412 freetoken  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:53:01pm

The so-called "climate-gate" issue is exposing some real cultural divides, even in academic circles. Over on Volokh we find Ilya Somin writing a post that, if the topic were on evolution, I would classify as yet another victim of the TEACH THE CONTROVERSY culture-war tactic.

The ultimate challenge for our society is to figure out what we want to become and how to get there. That applies not only to dealing with AGW but pretty much any problem.

The ideological camps still identifiable from the time of the Enlightenment are probably an artifice that we can no longer afford. There seems to be a real disconnect between the old ways of looking at society (e.g., "left" vs. "right") and what the physical universe will allow us.

It does seem as if we need a new ideological revolution that will help us address a world in which our technologies have allowed us to be a single global economy with planetary wide effects.

413 Digital Display  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:53:02pm

re: #398 acacia

Not the Rapid Arctic Sea Ice Decline mentioned. Actually, brookly red makes a good point. Wouldn't sea ice melting actually decrease sea levels?

I don't think so...If I recall from College it is a matter of displacement..
That's why ice cubes melting in your glass don't overflow the rim of the glass..
I believe it's land ice that messes up the ocean levels..

414 Achilles Tang  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:53:32pm

re: #390 Obdicut

Also, grass-fed bison is goddamn delicious, though tricky to cook because of the low fat content.

Like deer, but if ground one can mix with pork, or simply some salad dressing of choice. Adds the oil and a bit of spice at the same time.

415 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:53:49pm

'night

416 brookly red  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:53:50pm

re: #397 Naso Tang

I have to warm up at the top before taking a deep breath and diving.

Evening.

kudos to those who think first... wish there were more like you. and yes, I do know the answer :)

417 Gus  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:53:55pm

(OT)

Wow, this is something considering which administration we're talking about:

U.S. won't join landmine ban, administration decides
From Charley Keyes, CNN Senior Producer
November 24, 2009 6:05 p.m. EST


Washington (CNN) -- The United States won't join its NATO allies and many other countries in formally banning landmines, State Department spokesman Ian Kelly said during his midday briefing Tuesday.

"This administration undertook a policy review and we decided our landmine policy remains in effect," Kelly said in response to a question. "We made our policy review and we determined that we would not be able to meet our national defense needs nor our security commitments to our friends and allies if we sign this convention."

Opponents of the U.S. landmine policy said they were surprised.

SNIP

418 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:53:59pm

re: #413 HoosierHoops

I don't think so...If I recall from College it is a matter of displacement..
That's why ice cubes melting in your glass don't overflow the rim of the glass..
I believe it's land ice that messes up the ocean levels..

Yup.

419 Achilles Tang  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:54:13pm

re: #402 SteveC

Deep! I'm gonna need a sheet of paper to diagram that sentence!

Hey, the deep was in the previous part!

420 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:54:30pm

re: #409 dwells38

You're on a roll RacerX! Yes legalize it and tax the crap out of it.

Pot does almost nothing to the brain (anyone who wrecks their car on pot is eithr ALSO drunk or has some other nervous system problem) ain't no worse and probably not as bad as the carcinogenic tobacco and isn't a gateway to anything other than the pantry (for Doritos's!). Plus it's about as habit-forming as cheeseburgers and fries or internet porn and gaming.

It just seems absurd to have such an innocuous drug villified while a HIGHLY dangerous and addictive drug like achohol flows freely almost on every street corner.

Don't get me wrong. I understand the argument that just because a drug isn't as bad as a legal drug it should be praised and welcomed. But given the fact that our nation and member states are BROKE and can't afford to chase down and incarcerate (much less prevent) all these minor offenders nor have a prayer of a hope to control the resultant black market repercussions such as gangs and violent crime one must make a reasoned and sober decision to legalize I say.

And regulate and tax. Huge streams of revenue from that, and the consumer would certainly benefit from stable prices and high quality product, if nothing else. Americans don't do well with booze, 'tis true, and there are risks in introducing another intoxicant into the mix, also true, but for pete's sake - it isn''t worth the trouble anymore. Bad economics. Legalize, regulate, and tax.

421 Racer X  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:56:21pm

re: #409 dwells38

I'm not a fan of legalization for pot. Decriminalization, yes.

Pot makes you stupid.

422 SteveC  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:56:37pm

HoosierHoops

After surgery to replace her Aortic valve, my friend was released from the hospital today! Since she is at Mayo Clinic and lives several hundred miles away, her family is staying at a local hotel and will head for home tomorrow!

Anyone who held a good thought for her, I humbly thank you.

423 albusteve  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:56:44pm

re: #420 Guanxi88

And regulate and tax. Huge streams of revenue from that, and the consumer would certainly benefit from stable prices and high quality product, if nothing else. Americans don't do well with booze, 'tis true, and there are risks in introducing another intoxicant into the mix, also true, but for pete's sake - it isn''t worth the trouble anymore. Bad economics. Legalize, regulate, and tax.

bullshit...by that toke-en we should regulate and tax garden vegetables...leave pot alone, it has little to do with anything...enforce some usuage laws and forget this taxation bullshit

424 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:57:19pm

re: #421 Racer X

I'm not a fan of legalization for pot. Decriminalization, yes.

Pot makes you stupid.

Gotta regulate it, though. Can't have that crap floating around without some kinda controls on quality, weight and all the rest of it.

425 Achilles Tang  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:57:37pm

re: #417 Gus 802

(OT)

Wow, this is something considering which administration we're talking about:

U.S. won't join landmine ban, administration decides
From Charley Keyes, CNN Senior Producer
November 24, 2009 6:05 p.m. EST

This is nothing new to this administration. Is that what you mean?

426 albusteve  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:57:53pm

re: #421 Racer X

I'm not a fan of legalization for pot. Decriminalization, yes.

Pot makes you stupid.

so does blog addiction...talk about withdrawal from reality

427 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:58:05pm

re: #423 albusteve

bullshit...by that toke-en we should regulate and tax garden vegetables...leave pot alone, it has little to do with anything...enforce some usuage laws and forget this taxation bullshit

If grown for personal use, no problem, same as with tobacco or homemade wine. Introduced into commerce, though, and it's a different matter.

428 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:58:21pm

re: #421 Racer X

I'm not a fan of legalization for pot. Decriminalization, yes.

Pot makes you stupid.

Too much makes you stupid, agreed.

429 recusancy  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:58:38pm

re: #423 albusteve

bullshit...by that toke-en we should regulate and tax garden vegetables...leave pot alone, it has little to do with anything...enforce some usuage laws and forget this taxation bullshit

We don't regulate vegetables because they are a food source that we need. We don't need pot. It's a luxery. We should get rid of all taxes by that 'toke-en'.

430 albusteve  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:58:39pm

re: #424 Guanxi88

Gotta regulate it, though. Can't have that crap floating around without some kinda controls on quality, weight and all the rest of it.

commie

431 SteveC  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:58:52pm

re: #402 SteveC

Deep! I'm gonna need a sheet of paper to diagram that sentence!

re: #419 Naso Tang

Hey, the deep was in the previous part!

I freely admit that my brain isn't very deep when it comes to Global Warming. I have to tackle it one small piece at a time!

432 Racer X  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:58:55pm

re: #424 Guanxi88

Gotta regulate it, though. Can't have that crap floating around without some kinda controls on quality, weight and all the rest of it.

Once the stoners realize they can grow some really good shit in their own backyard and not risk going to jail, the quality issue will go away. So will the profit incentives for gangs.

433 brookly red  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:58:56pm

re: #420 Guanxi88

And regulate and tax. Huge streams of revenue from that, and the consumer would certainly benefit from stable prices and high quality product, if nothing else. Americans don't do well with booze, 'tis true, and there are risks in introducing another intoxicant into the mix, also true, but for pete's sake - it isn''t worth the trouble anymore. Bad economics. Legalize, regulate, and tax.

well I don't smoke it but in the name of those who do... regulate & tax? what a freakin sell out! :)

434 Obdicut  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:59:00pm

re: #395 Guanxi88

There are answers and solution, but none of them seem to be enjoying anything along the lines of state support that the taxation and poverty proposals have.

Taxation is a perfectly good way to approach it, and one of the only ways to escape the paradox of greater energy utilization with greater energy efficiency. Punitive taxation isn't good, nor is ineffective taxation, but if we want to increase efficiency and decrease usage, we need to keep the cost from diving with the increased efficiency.


Taxing the Hell outta the average guys, and imposing pointless and crippling restrictions on technological developments is guranteed to do nothing and make us all more miserable and impoverished as we slide toward the great culling.

I'm unsure where you see restrictions on technological development as part of any plan.

Me? I;m a big fan of bio-char as a carbon sequestration/soil improvement technique. This improves developing world crop yields AND sequesters atmospheric carbon.

Then I guess you do know a solution, after all. There is no overarching solution, just a lot of little ones.


I'm a huge fan of Kerrick Process for coal to liquids fuels, and think it's criminally stupid to just burn coal when there's so many valuable products to be gotten from it. These things, however, aren't sexy, don't catch the eye, and don't do anything to increase the power of one group of people over another. And so, they're not popular.

They can be made popular, though. And they can be achieved without popularity, in many ways. And they do increase the power of a group of people who I honestly think have a unique chance at this point in time: pragmatists.

One way you can make them more popular is explaining them in coffee conversations to your friends. It really is how humanity works; the enlightenment was partially the smartest guys in the world talking with each other, but it was equally those ideas being transmitted to the street.

Sometimes that led to the American Revolution, sometimes to the French. Again, we have a choice of path. I understand the fear that the Terror of climate change will be draconian measures, but if AGW is allowed to go to far we will have all of its penalties, plus draconian measures as well.

So persuade all those you can persuade. And encourage, above all, science education and critical thinking in the classroom.

And the bison is delicious.

435 Digital Display  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:59:25pm

re: #422 SteveC

HoosierHoops

After surgery to replace her Aortic valve, my friend was released from the hospital today! Since she is at Mayo Clinic and lives several hundred miles away, her family is staying at a local hotel and will head for home tomorrow!

Anyone who held a good thought for her, I humbly thank you.

I added that to the prayer list...That is wonderful news!

436 albusteve  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:59:48pm

re: #429 recusancy

We don't regulate vegetables because they are a food source that we need. We don't need pot. It's a luxery. We should get rid of all taxes by that 'toke-en'.

who makes those choices? you?

437 Gus  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 5:59:57pm

re: #425 Naso Tang

This is nothing new to this administration. Is that what you mean?

Something to the effect of the stereotype being that the administration would sign onto to the land mine ban. Hence the surprises from the human rights groups. The right won't acknowledge this action which is somewhat hawkish.

438 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:00:08pm

re: #430 albusteve

commie

Look, one of the greatest frustrations in the days in which I indulged was getting shorted, or ending up with some product mixed in with filler, or just getting crappy brickweed. If it's gonna be decriminalized, it enters the marketplace as a commodity, and as an agricultural commodity, it's gotta have some kinda regs on it.

439 Obdicut  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:00:37pm

re: #414 Naso Tang

Like deer, but if ground one can mix with pork, or simply some salad dressing of choice. Adds the oil and a bit of spice at the same time.

Thanks! I hadn't thought of mixing it with pork- the flavors would compliment nicely.

I've been using it in chili with beans fried in some bacon grease, so I guess i have been kind of using it with pork, but direct mixing would be pretty darn cool.

440 Achilles Tang  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:00:59pm

re: #421 Racer X

I'm not a fan of legalization for pot. Decriminalization, yes.

Pot makes you stupid.

No it doesn't, it just makes one take longer to realize something is stupid.

441 Racer X  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:01:22pm

re: #428 austin_blue

Too much makes you stupid, agreed.

I had a friend of a friend of a friend in HS, who smoked a lot, and said yes, it makes you stupid while you are stoned. Not motivated to go out and get a real job and out of the parent's basement.

442 brookly red  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:01:31pm

re: #423 albusteve

bullshit...by that toke-en we should regulate and tax garden vegetables...leave pot alone, it has little to do with anything...enforce some usuage laws and forget this taxation bullshit

we do regulate & tax garden vegetables... stop smoking dope & pay attention on the check out line.

443 The Left  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:01:33pm

Article in the Wapo yesterday about how legalisation is gaining ground:

Support for legalizing marijuana grows rapidly around U.S.

"This issue is breaking out in a remarkably rapid way now," said Ethan Nadelmann, executive director of the Drug Policy Alliance. "Public opinion is changing very, very rapidly."

The shift is widely described as generational. A Gallup poll in October found 44 percent of Americans favor full legalization of marijuana -- a rise of 13 points since 2000. Gallup said that if public support continues growing at a rate of 1 to 2 percent per year, "the majority of Americans could favor legalization of the drug in as little as four years."

444 albusteve  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:02:21pm

re: #438 Guanxi88

Look, one of the greatest frustrations in the days in which I indulged was getting shorted, or ending up with some product mixed in with filler, or just getting crappy brickweed. If it's gonna be decriminalized, it enters the marketplace as a commodity, and as an agricultural commodity, it's gotta have some kinda regs on it.

no it doesn't...just because you got burned?...that's pretty selfish...it's a weed that grows anywhere, figure it out for yourself and leave the feds out of it

445 Gus  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:02:21pm

re: #443 iceweasel

Article in the Wapo yesterday about how legalisation is gaining ground:

Support for legalizing marijuana grows rapidly around U.S.

I fully support the legalization, regulation, and taxation of marijuana.

446 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:02:32pm

re: #441 Racer X

I had a friend of a friend of a friend in HS, who smoked a lot, and said yes, it makes you stupid while you are stoned. Not motivated to go out and get a real job and out of the parent's basement.

That's certainly a good definition of "too much"!

447 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:02:45pm

re: #443 iceweasel

Article in the Wapo yesterday about how legalisation is gaining ground:

Support for legalizing marijuana grows rapidly around U.S.

It's about damned time. Of all the stupid wastes of resources and life! For pity's sake - cops got bigger fish to fry, and it makes no sense to lock someone up for indulging in an intoxicant if he harms no one else in son doing.

448 jaunte  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:02:59pm

re: #443 iceweasel

It may be decriminalized, but I'd bet that it won't be legal to grow in your own garden.

449 albusteve  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:03:14pm

re: #442 brookly red

we do regulate & tax garden vegetables... stop smoking dope & pay attention on the check out line.

I only buy govt regulated Beef-O-Roni

450 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:03:19pm

re: #445 Gus 802

I fully support the legalization, regulation, and taxation of marijuana.

I third that!

451 tradewind  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:03:32pm

Watching Ed Begley Jr lose it is better than anything on SNL...
(and ...any chance he might post here as LVQ)? ///
[Link: www.foxnews.com...] (sorry for having to endure the fifteen second plug at the start)

452 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:03:53pm

re: #448 jaunte

It may be decriminalized, but I'd bet that it won't be legal to grow in your own garden.

Dunno. You can grow your own tobacco, can brew up or vint several hundred gallons of your own pop-skull every year. Why not pot, if it's not illegal?

453 Gus  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:04:20pm

re: #450 Walter L. Newton

I third that!

When it's time to relax...
One bud stands clear...
Toke after toke...

//

454 Achilles Tang  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:04:25pm

re: #391 iceweasel

I love London! Scotland is more of a culture shock for me than London. I'm loving it though!

Are you in Scotland? I was in Edinburgh for 4 years long long ago.

455 The Left  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:04:26pm

re: #445 Gus 802

I fully support the legalization, regulation, and taxation of marijuana.

Completely agree. In a world in which alcohol is not considered an illegal substance, there is no good reason why pot should be, in terms of its effects on society and health.

456 jaunte  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:05:14pm

re: #452 Guanxi88

I'm not saying that it isn't a logical step, but I don't think logic will drive the freakout about it.

457 cliffster  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:05:23pm

re: #445 Gus 802

I fully support the legalization, regulation, and taxation of marijuana.

There have been people around here lately that really need to load a bowl.

458 Gus  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:05:35pm

re: #455 iceweasel

Completely agree. In a world in which alcohol is not considered an illegal substance, there is no good reason why pot should be, in terms of its effects on society and health.

Pretty much. Which is not to say that there isn't a time and place for smoking marijuana. That's why it would be regulated.

459 albusteve  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:05:55pm

re: #445 Gus 802

I fully support the legalization, regulation, and taxation of marijuana.

what a can of worms...if you can't even figure out how to buy decent weed, how do you expect the feds to understand regs and taxes...it's a loser, period

460 freetoken  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:06:14pm

re: #443 iceweasel

I suspect that over the many years, and in the future this will be more clear, that including marijuana in the "War on Drugs" was a big social mistake.

Here in California with the "three strikes" laws, possession of a trivial amount of a common plant can send one into irreversible stigmatization.

461 SteveC  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:06:19pm

And now for something completely different...

To support Breast Cancer Awareness, the employees of Providence St. Vincent Medical Center (Portland, Oregon) do the Pink Glove Dance!

Subtitled "White men shouldn't dance on video"

(Except for the older janitor and the maintenance man with the beard and sunglasses. Those two got some moves!)

462 The Left  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:07:19pm

re: #454 Naso Tang

Are you in Scotland? I was in Edinburgh for 4 years long long ago.

yep! Moved the seekrit lair to scotland (and in with Jimmah) earlier this month. We decided two Soros operatives could live as cheaply as one, and that it made more sense to have one base of nefarious progressive operations.
Did you ever get to go to the Edinburgh festival? I've always wanted to go to that, never made it.

463 Gus  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:07:40pm

re: #459 albusteve

what a can of worms...if you can't even figure out how to buy decent weed, how do you expect the feds to understand regs and taxes...it's a loser, period

Well, that's the way it's going to be done. No way around it. If the state and/or the Fed are going to allow it to be legalized it's going to come along with regulation and taxation. Otherwise it won't happen. This is already happening with medical marijuana with increased regulation (more in the line of scrutiny) and taxation.

464 tradewind  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:07:55pm

re: #455 iceweasel
The problem with legalizing pot... or one of them... is that there isn't really a good way to measure its effects on a body uniformly, as with ethanol. BAC is measurable, but one toke over the line, not so much.

465 SteveC  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:08:01pm

re: #448 jaunte

It may be decriminalized, but I'd bet that it won't be legal to grow in your own garden.

Not while San Fran Nancy and the Tax Brigade are around, that's for sure!

466 brookly red  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:08:03pm

re: #445 Gus 802

I fully support the legalization, regulation, and taxation of marijuana.

something is very wrong when people start supporting taxation... how about supporting the legalization & get the f' outta my face of marijuana?

467 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:08:08pm

re: #459 albusteve

what a can of worms...if you can't even figure out how to buy decent weed, how do you expect the feds to understand regs and taxes...it's a loser, period

Damn it, you are right! Look at that thriving black market for booze out there!

///

468 Wind Rider  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:08:32pm

re: #412 freetoken

It does seem as if we need a new ideological revolution that will help us address a world in which our technologies have allowed us to be a single global economy with planetary wide effects.

Cue the International, comrades! And, try to remain calm while you're rounded up for re-education to facilitate the "new ideological revolution". Only the most intransigent will actually be shot. So, hey, no worries!

But enough about that! Let's talk about the symbiotic relationship between the human brain and THC - imagine, actual receptors for a naturally substance, developed over 10,000 years of interaction, unlike the mimicry method used by man made and synthesized narcotics. Too bad everybody decided that 'the science was settled', and took the word of an egregious (even for his time period) pompous beauracrat with a tenure longer than J. Edgar Hoover's, when he said it had to be banned or else the n***rs and the sp*cs would get da white wimmin!

469 jaunte  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:08:34pm

re: #465 SteveC

It's too hard for governments to monetize ditchweed.

470 Gus  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:08:39pm

re: #466 brookly red

something is very wrong when people start supporting taxation... how about supporting the legalization & get the f' outta my face of marijuana?

Because taxation is the selling point for the states.

471 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:09:07pm

re: #460 freetoken

I suspect that over the many years, and in the future this will be more clear, that including marijuana in the "War on Drugs" was a big social mistake.

Here in California with the "three strikes" laws, possession of a trivial amount of a common plant can send one into irreversible stigmatization.

And that's another thing not to get me started on. But you did...

Why the hell do we waste our resources, and the lives of so many young (and not so young) people with these incarcerations? Makes no damned sense - dings and damages many of them for life, and the hitch they do does nothing to improve their lives or even prepare them to live in the broader society.

Honestly, I'm starting to become an advocate of fines for more and more offenses. Why lock people up if they're not a threat? Make the marijuana thing an administrative offense, hit them for not paying the tax or having the license or whatever it may be, and send them on their way. Locking them up just damages their future earning ability.

472 Digital Display  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:09:11pm

re: #445 Gus 802

I fully support the legalization, regulation, and taxation of marijuana.

I never have...I always worried about my children growing up a bunch of Stoners...Then trying acid, Coke, meth, Heroin..
I don't need the US Gov't making it easier..I want to make it harder...
That's me

473 Achilles Tang  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:09:16pm

re: #431 SteveC

I freely admit that my brain isn't very deep when it comes to Global Warming. I have to tackle it one small piece at a time!

On the basis of full disclosure, I hope you didn't read so fast that you missed the invisible sarc.

474 tradewind  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:09:20pm

re: #457 cliffster
And a few who appear to have been drinking the bong water...//

475 recusancy  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:09:34pm

re: #395 Guanxi88

There are answers and solution, but none of them seem to be enjoying anything along the lines of state support that the taxation and poverty proposals have.

Frankly, the solutions are not yet known to us. Disregard the whole controversy over the cause of the phenomenon - the effects are real and any civilization or species that denies the incontrovertible fact that their environment can and will become unsuitable is doomed.

Taxing the Hell outta the average guys, and imposing pointless and crippling restrictions on technological developments is guranteed to do nothing and make us all more miserable and impoverished as we slide toward the great culling.

Me? I;m a big fan of bio-char as a carbon sequestration/soil improvement technique. This improves developing world crop yields AND sequesters atmospheric carbon. I'm a huge fan of Kerrick Process for coal to liquids fuels, and think it's criminally stupid to just burn coal when there's so many valuable products to be gotten from it. These things, however, aren't sexy, don't catch the eye, and don't do anything to increase the power of one group of people over another. And so, they're not popular.

It's my understanding that biochar is a new, yet growing and promising industry. And regarding your belief that we can't find a solution if it doesn't "do anything to increase the power of one group of people over another", I'm not even sure what to say to that. That's just a extreme, biases view, of what environmental advocates are trying to do. Nobody's trying to take your liberty away or hold power over you through environmental standards. At least no more then people are trying to hold power over you through laws saying you can't murder people or steal things or smoke until your 18 or drink until your 21.

476 albusteve  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:09:55pm

re: #463 Gus 802

Well, that's the way it's going to be done. No way around it. If the state and/or the Fed are going to allow it to be legalized it's going to come along with regulation and taxation. Otherwise it won't happen. This is already happening with medical marijuana with increased regulation (more in the line of scrutiny) and taxation.

I'm not speaking as to how it's going to be done...of course the feds want their cut...I speak on my principles, not some trumped up rules and regs for pot use...the feds are simply wrong and so are you

477 Gus  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:10:30pm

re: #472 HoosierHoops

I never have...I always worried about my children growing up a bunch of Stoners...Then trying acid, Coke, meth, Heroin..
I don't need the US Gov't making it easier..I want to make it harder...
That's me

Understood. It's not a big issue with me one way or the other. If given the choice I would say legalize it. If it doesn't happen that's fine with me.

478 brookly red  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:10:53pm

re: #470 Gus 802

Because taxation is the selling point for the states.


if the states be whores then me thinks they be treated as such.

479 albusteve  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:11:08pm

re: #466 brookly red

something is very wrong when people start supporting taxation... how about supporting the legalization & get the f' outta my face of marijuana?

agreed, but I'm not surprised...it's two faced and it's rampant

480 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:11:49pm

re: #390 Obdicut

That's what a bacon wrap is for. :)

481 albusteve  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:12:34pm

re: #470 Gus 802

Because taxation is the selling point for the states.

fuck the states...it's about personal freedom and hypocrisy

482 The Left  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:12:41pm

re: #460 freetoken

I suspect that over the many years, and in the future this will be more clear, that including marijuana in the "War on Drugs" was a big social mistake.

Here in California with the "three strikes" laws, possession of a trivial amount of a common plant can send one into irreversible stigmatization.

Yes, agreed.
And the Rockefeller drug laws in New York State have wrecked thousands of lives.
Apparently NYC is the marijuana arrest capital of the world.
The War on Drugs was by almost any measure a colossal failure and I don't even think we know all the societal consequences of it yet.

483 kilroy  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:12:56pm

I check in late and the global warming thread has evolved into a pot thread.What's that tell me?

484 Gus  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:13:16pm

re: #466 brookly red

something is very wrong when people start supporting taxation... how about supporting the legalization & get the f' outta my face of marijuana?

Again, because that's not how it's done. When prohibition ended they didn't say go ahead and make all the booze you want and we won't tax you for it. It's also a luxury item. Unlike food which shouldn't be taxed. However, snack foods are taxed.

485 rhino2  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:13:23pm

OT - Has anyone seen this? If true, it is troubling to think we're going to be putting multiple SEAL team members through a court martial for seemingly a single punch to the face to someone who hung the bodies of blackwater security agents from a bridge, after burning them and dragging them through the streets.

This is so far the only place I've seen the story, so I don't know how much truth there is to it, just thought I'd see if anyone else had seen anything about this today.

486 Achilles Tang  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:14:18pm

re: #437 Gus 802

Something to the effect of the stereotype being that the administration would sign onto to the land mine ban. Hence the surprises from the human rights groups. The right won't acknowledge this action which is somewhat hawkish.

The human rights groups make no real distinction between who, how, or when a weapon is used. If they had their way full automatic rifles would be outlawed, and in fact I believe there were efforts to do so when the first ones were invented. Their sentiments are not connected to realities, unfortunately.

487 recusancy  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:14:18pm

re: #472 HoosierHoops

I never have...I always worried about my children growing up a bunch of Stoners...Then trying acid, Coke, meth, Heroin..
I don't need the US Gov't making it easier..I want to make it harder...
That's me

When I was in highschool it was a hell of a lot easier to get weed then it was to get booze. I could buy pot from any number of friends or people around town. With alcohol you had to get somebody to go into a store and show an ID. It felt a hell of a lot riskier.

I'm 28 - so this wasn't too long ago. Things haven't changed.

488 albusteve  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:14:26pm

re: #484 Gus 802

Again, because that's not how it's done. When prohibition ended they didn't say go ahead and make all the booze you want and we won't tax you for it. It's also a luxury item. Unlike food which shouldn't be taxed. However, snack foods are taxed.

you've sold out...regulate it, tax it

489 Racer X  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:14:37pm

re: #483 kilroy

I check in late and the global warming thread has evolved into a pot thread.What's that tell me?

Just wait until we start debating the benefits of hemp. Then things will really get interesting.

490 albusteve  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:14:59pm

re: #489 Racer X

Just wait until we start debating the benefits of hemp. Then things will really get interesting.

HEMP!

491 brookly red  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:15:28pm

re: #479 albusteve

agreed, but I'm not surprised...it's two faced and it's rampant

I think dope smoking is stupid, but if you want to do it kneel at the alter of gubernmint pay your tax? bullshit.

492 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:15:56pm

re: #475 recusancy

It's my understanding that biochar is a new, yet growing and promising industry. And regarding your belief that we can't find a solution if it doesn't "do anything to increase the power of one group of people over another", I'm not even sure what to say to that. That's just a extreme, biases view, of what environmental advocates are trying to do. Nobody's trying to take your liberty away or hold power over you through environmental standards. At least no more then people are trying to hold power over you through laws saying you can't murder people or steal things or smoke until your 18 or drink until your 21.

I'm a fan of biochar because, if nothing else, it does no harm to the broader environment, and has demonstrable benefits for agriculture.

The most "popular" solutions entail massive and expensive interventions by the State and/or parties acting on behalf of the state. They ALWAYS involve taxation, which is a coercive taking. To fix the problem, you don't tax it out of existence.

Simple, sustainable technologies exist. They work, and are adaptable to local conditions and circumstances, and can do a great deal of good. And they're voluntary. No coercion is required to implement them.

The folk proposing to tax the hell outta the first world and deny the developing world cheap and abundant energy from proven resources are not interested in any fix that doesn't involve manipulation and control of other human beings. A perfect solution, assuming one existed, that did not require taxing powers would not proposed by any government.

493 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:16:37pm

Not with a bang, but a whimper.

494 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:16:48pm

re: #485 rhino2

OT - Has anyone seen this? If true, it is troubling to think we're going to be putting multiple SEAL team members through a court martial for seemingly a single punch to the face to someone who hung the bodies of blackwater security agents from a bridge, after burning them and dragging them through the streets.

This is so far the only place I've seen the story, so I don't know how much truth there is to it, just thought I'd see if anyone else had seen anything about this today.

Oh, dear me. This is just awful.

495 dwells38  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:17:05pm

re: #407 Guanxi88

Yeah Ludwig's good for the AGW pov. And that's meant as a compliment. I've come on strong a few times with some of the more common sense kind of anti-AGW points and he straightened me out without being a jerk.

I thought it was hooey because it seemed too convenient for leftists but I have to say I have more sympathy for climate scientists now esp. after reviewing the NASA site (which Ludwig linked). I think they're caught in the middle of a huge ideological battle. They know science. That doesn't make them right but they know of which they speak to the extent that it can reflect reality.

496 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:17:17pm

re: #493 negativ

Not with a bang, but a whimper.

Here we go round the prickly pear...

497 Obdicut  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:17:34pm

re: #485 rhino2

OT - Has anyone seen this? If true, it is troubling to think we're going to be putting multiple SEAL team members through a court martial for seemingly a single punch to the face to someone who hung the bodies of blackwater security agents from a bridge, after burning them and dragging them through the streets.

This is so far the only place I've seen the story, so I don't know how much truth there is to it, just thought I'd see if anyone else had seen anything about this today.

From what I've read of it, the SEAL team leader is the one who propagated the complaint up the chain of command; that would mean that he gave a direct order to not beat on the prisoner and his guys disobeyed a direct order.

You can't be a SEAL and disobey orders. Not even to punch terrorists in the face.

498 albusteve  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:17:53pm

I implore all you fedhead, garbonzo eaters to do some research about hemp...get yourselves informed

499 kilroy  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:18:02pm

re: #489 Racer X
I still have some Manila hemp rope out in the shed--I just can't smoke it; maybe it has creosote on it?

500 oh_dude  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:18:15pm

Part 1

OK, I'll throw out some random thoughts on the subject and you guys can jump all over me and tell me what an idiot I am for even thinking it...

- Climate Change: What is the ideal climate? Was it the climate during the Ice Age? During the Medieval Warming Period? Does the answer depend on who you're talking to? If I was a whale, I would like more ocean to swim in, if I was a snake I would welcome the warmer temps.

-What is better for life overall, a warming planet or a cooling planet? Didn't life here on earth begin in a warm region?

- CO2, CO2, CO2: Everyone's talking about all of the increasing CO2 in the air and that we need to reduce it (if you in fact believe that increased CO2 leads to higher temps). How? As a scuba diver, I've noticed that re-breather technology is at the point where it's commercially available to recreational divers. A re-breather removes all of the CO2 from my exhalations so I don't die. Why can't we do that on a much larger scale?

- More CO2: How much human produced CO2 is sent into the atmosphere in a year? How much CO2 is released into the air by a single volcanic eruption? Isn't that like trying to empty a bathtub with a eyedropper while someone is using a fire-hose to fill it up?

-Modern Wimps: Did you know that the British Isles weren't always islands? Early man, used to be able to walk from what is now western Europe to what is now the UK. Eventually however, the seas rose at such a tremendous rate that the English channel was created. What caused the rapid rise? Was it high amounts of CO2? And how did early man survive this brutal environmental change with tiny brains and wooden tools?

-Science Project: Take a piece of paper and draw a time-line that represents the age of the Earth (about 4.5 billion years) with 1" equaling 10,000 year increments (ok, you'll probably need a lot of paper). Now, take your pen and draw a set of markers on this your Earth time-line that represents the length of time that man has been putting CO2 into the atmosphere. You want me to believe that we've pumped that much CO2 into the air in the relatively short amount of time to even make a dent?

Recycle is Religion: Is it more environmentally friendly to recycle a plastic bottle or just throw it into the trash? If you recycle it, how much energy is required to transform the bottle into something else? Somebody needs to come by and pick up the bottle (in a truck I assume) haul it to the recycling plant large machinery is needed to unload, move and process this bottle. People are required to sort this stuff and manage the plant. That requires offices with computers, air conditioners, etc. What about the people themselves? They require energy (food). What are all the by-products of burning the fossil-fuels to do all of this (power the truck, generate the electricity to run the machines, etc.)?

501 lawhawk  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:18:16pm

re: #434 Obdicut

Taxation can definitely alter or shift behavior, typically to engage in tax avoidance at all costs. That includes engaging in activities that would try to minimize tax hits.

That's why the health care proposals include tax penalties for not obtaining health insurance; the thinking is that if you penalize something enough, people will engage in a behavior that the government would rather see.

That's the thinking behind raising sin taxes and raising gas taxes.

The problem is that raising those taxes sometimes results in less revenue over time as people switch to more efficient vehicles, stop smoking, or engage in other behaviors of their own violition for wholly separate reasons (driving more efficient vehicles would occur over time as cars become more efficient technologically even without government interference - or can produce more horsepower with the same fuel requirements).

Buying more efficient cars results is less revenue over time for the government unless they continue to raise taxes, or find other things to tax.

Instead of taxing to produce results, making ultra efficient items tax exempt is a better strategy. It's an incentive to productivity, and if you're not relying on tax revenue, you can spur development and growth in an area without worrying about a revenue decline as the behavior you hope to achieve comes about.

That's why so many states are now looking at mileage tax instead of gas taxes; they can't make up the revenue lost as more people buy a Prius instead of a SUV - both will drive the roads, but if you tax mileage, you get revenue from both.

502 Wind Rider  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:18:24pm

Ok, trivia question - which founding father(s) (c'mon, you know, the old dead white guys) actually documented the process of determination of the sex of the cannabis plant? And praised it over the big new world cash crop, tobacco?

Why sex the plants? Hmmm, anyone wanna field THAT one? Doesn't have a damned thing to do with making rope!

503 albusteve  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:18:50pm

re: #494 MandyManners

Oh, dear me. This is just awful.

one step at a time comrade

504 SteveC  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:18:54pm

re: #483 kilroy

I check in late and the global warming thread has evolved into a pot thread.What's that tell me?

Bring more Snacks!

505 Racer X  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:19:15pm

Cannondale Concept Updates The Dutch Bike

Designed for Cannondale, the Dutchess is a woman’s bike based on the heavy old Dutch bikes popular in Europe (hence the punnish, creatively misspelled name). At fist glance you actually see nothing more than a streamlined, duck-egg blue version of the these omafiets (granny-bikes). But take another glance at the hubs, bottom-bracket, handlebars and even the rear fender and it starts to reveal itself as a rather futuristic machine.

First, the frame itself. The whole bike weighs in at just 14 Kg (31 pounds) and is based around the swooping bar that runs from the handlebar all the way to the back. On top of that is the tubular fender, which is structural and can support up to 50 Kg, or 110 pounds. Inside these hollow tubes are contained the brake lines (they are hydraulic) and cabling for the lights (they’re built-in and powered by the hubs).

Speaking of the hubs, these are innovative in themselves. The rims are laced to a generic hub into which can be slotted various cassettes. This means that both front and back wheels are identical, only the rear has the drive system and brake, and the front a generator and a brake. This would make repairs easier as you don’t have to rebuild the whole wheel just to change hubs. Wytze is realistic, though. Speaking to the excellent Bicycle Design blog, he says that “This is dreaming: [the hub] is a better standard then the current solution, but it will never happen.”

Another thing that may never happen is the crank, which as you can see does not use a chain. The actual drive train has not been revealed by Wytze, although it may have something in common with another design he came up with for a folding bike, which uses a cord and a cone-shaped freewheel to transfer power. In the accompanying video (below) it seems to work fine, and Wytze told Bicycle Design that the efficiency is a resectable 96%, compared to a chain’s 98%.

506 brookly red  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:19:31pm

re: #482 iceweasel

Yes, agreed.
And the Rockefeller drug laws in New York State have wrecked thousands of lives.
Apparently NYC is the marijuana arrest capital of the world.
The War on Drugs was by almost any measure a colossal failure and I don't even think we know all the societal consequences of it yet.

and the selling of narcotics has wrecked millions, dealers belong in jail. the rock laws have nothing to do with pot.

507 Gus  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:19:34pm

re: #488 albusteve

you've sold out...regulate it, tax it

Yep, sold out. Had to pay a tax on the 1/2 pint of vodka I bought this afternoon. Bummer.

508 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:19:39pm

re: #483 kilroy

I check in late and the global warming thread has evolved into a pot thread.What's that tell me?

People are tired of beating the %$&@ out of each other? I didn't even post until the wattage came down. As many of you know, that's unusual for me if it's fundamental principles. I don't like to see longtime Lizards beating on each other over perceived slights and nuance. So what the hell? Let's talk drug policy, which everybody agrees is pretty much rock dumb.

(Although I would like some folks to read the essay in my #381 and comment. It really is important.)

509 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:19:51pm

re: #498 albusteve

I implore all you fedhead, garbonzo eaters to do some research about hemp...get yourselves informed

Now hemp is a different matter. That's a useful and, indeed, proven commodity crop with a wide range of uses. Would that it were more commonly cultivated...

510 McSpiff  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:19:54pm

And now for something totally different...

511 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:20:12pm

re: #498 albusteve

I implore all you fedhead, garbonzo eaters to do some research about hemp...get yourselves informed

I conducted lots of hemp research in the mid 80s when I was a spry lad.

512 tradewind  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:21:02pm

re: #500 oh_dude

- Climate Change: What is the ideal climate?

Don't know, but ideal would be warmer than it was this past year down here. It was coldish and sucked for the tomatoes.

513 Racer X  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:21:12pm

re: #509 Guanxi88

Now hemp is a different matter. That's a useful and, indeed, proven commodity crop with a wide range of uses. Would that it were more commonly cultivated...

Widespread adoption of hemp could save the planet!

Fer realz.

514 Achilles Tang  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:21:12pm

re: #466 brookly red

something is very wrong when people start supporting taxation... how about supporting the legalization & get the f' outta my face of marijuana?

I'd rather tax joints than income. In truth a sales tax only for everything would be ideal, but we won't go there now.

However if you think about it, unregulated and freely available marijuana would be a minefield of other really dangerous additives. The price of weed would drop to nothing because every balcony would have a year's supply growing. There would be nothing for the sellers to do to make a profit but add spice.

515 recusancy  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:21:45pm

re: #492 Guanxi88

I'm a fan of biochar because, if nothing else, it does no harm to the broader environment, and has demonstrable benefits for agriculture.

The most "popular" solutions entail massive and expensive interventions by the State and/or parties acting on behalf of the state. They ALWAYS involve taxation, which is a coercive taking. To fix the problem, you don't tax it out of existence.

Simple, sustainable technologies exist. They work, and are adaptable to local conditions and circumstances, and can do a great deal of good. And they're voluntary. No coercion is required to implement them.

The folk proposing to tax the hell outta the first world and deny the developing world cheap and abundant energy from proven resources are not interested in any fix that doesn't involve manipulation and control of other human beings. A perfect solution, assuming one existed, that did not require taxing powers would not proposed by any government.

I agree about biochar.

Regarding the second bolded point I agree as well. But that's not the case. If it was we'd be on the way to fixing things already. We need governement because only government can tackle a problem this large. There's no price for carbon so there's no market forces to cause companies to innovate to decrease it.

516 albusteve  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:21:47pm

re: #507 Gus 802

Yep, sold out. Had to pay a tax on the 1/2 pint of vodka I bought this afternoon. Bummer.

make it yourself and quit whining...you have no argument that does not involve some kind of preferential lingo

517 Obdicut  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:21:53pm

re: #501 lawhawk

I don't have anything particularly against what you say, and I agree with a lot of it, but I wasn't talking about taxation as a revenue source, but as a way to combine increased efficiency with decreased usage.

I see the tax exempt as opposed to imposing taxes as just a practical question: if it can work as tax exempt, that's fine, but with stuff like power and energy production, I do not think that will work.

Of course, as I've said before, we need a huge, huge effort on energy production, much larger than we have now.

518 freetoken  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:22:10pm

re: #500 oh_dude

All of these issues have been discussed ad naseum.

E.g., the volcano question (ans: human activity is far greater than volcano activity.)

Start here:

The Discovery of Global Warming

519 Racer X  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:22:32pm
520 dwells38  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:22:51pm

re: #413 HoosierHoops

Uh yeah because if the ice is sitting in the water the level has already accounted for it. If it's sitting on land it only accounts for it once it melts and runs into the water.

Hey looky there, I'm a scientist!

Oh wait did I say a scientist. Meant to say obnoxious :)

521 kilroy  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:22:58pm

re: #509 Guanxi88

That old hemp rope I've got is still sequestering CO2 from 60 years ago!

522 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:23:17pm

re: #218 iceweasel

That's not right, Walter. I don't think even LVQ thinks that, and neither Jimmah nor I think that, and I'm really getting tired of people pretending that I do.

Bullshit.

523 Gus  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:23:19pm

re: #516 albusteve

make it yourself and quit whining...you have no argument that does not involve some kind of preferential lingo

That's pretty funny because I was kidding when I said "bummer."

You seem to be lit up about this.

524 Achilles Tang  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:23:57pm

re: #500 oh_dude

You just woke up from a long sleep, didn't you?

525 Digital Display  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:24:25pm

re: #487 recusancy

When I was in highschool it was a hell of a lot easier to get weed then it was to get booze. I could buy pot from any number of friends or people around town. With alcohol you had to get somebody to go into a store and show an ID. It felt a hell of a lot riskier.

I'm 28 - so this wasn't too long ago. Things haven't changed.

I understand.. I was raised in Napa Valley..Wine was everywhere..Hell in College we robbed Vineyards..So I don't want to sound like a hypocrite...
But I worried about my kids...I pushed them to become Athletes and to go to school and work hard...And be successful in life...Thats all I tried to do...
I sent a picture of Jordan to Sharm last Saturday... You don't get guns or 6 packs like his by sitting around smoking dope.. Life is hard work...
I am very proud of my children...I don't believe drugs should be legal..
Thats just me...

526 lawhawk  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:24:28pm

re: #485 rhino2

It's a troubling matter to say the least. From what I understand, the SEALs wanted a court martial instead of administrative action. However, any outcome is likely to result in these three SEALs ending their career with the special forces.

The SEALs busted the lip of a guy involved in the murder of four Blackwater guards in Fallujah. Is that grounds to end their careers? I don't think it should, but you can't ignore their duty to do the right thing either.

And in the future, soldiers will consider not taking prisoners rather than face prospects that put their careers in jeopardy, particularly when it comes to taking prisoners.

527 albusteve  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:24:40pm

re: #513 Racer X

Widespread adoption of hemp could save the planet!

Fer realz.

it won't save the planet, but it might save your attitude...hemp is incredibly useful

528 The Left  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:25:18pm

re: #506 brookly red

and the selling of narcotics has wrecked millions, dealers belong in jail. the rock laws have nothing to do with pot.

They have to do with the subject of the failure of the War on Drugs, and drug laws that do more harm than good, and the Rockefeller laws do very little to stop the major dealers it was aimed at:

Enacted in 1973 under Governor Nelson Rockefeller, the Rockefeller Drug Laws mandate extremely harsh mandatory minimum prison terms for the possession or sale of relatively small amounts of drugs. Supposedly intended to target major dealers (kingpins), most of the people incarcerated under these laws are convicted of low-level, nonviolent offenses, and many of them have no prior criminal records. As of 2008, approximately 14,000 people are locked up for drug offenses in New York State prisons, representing nearly 38% of the prison population and costing New Yorkers hundreds of millions of dollars every year.

They're a mess.

529 recusancy  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:26:14pm

re: #525 HoosierHoops

I understand.. I was raised in Napa Valley..Wine was everywhere..Hell in College we robbed Vineyards..So I don't want to sound like a hypocrite...
But I worried about my kids...I pushed them to become Athletes and to go to school and work hard...And be successful in life...Thats all I tried to do...
I sent a picture of Jordan to Sharm last Saturday... You don't get guns or 6 packs like his by sitting around smoking dope.. Life is hard work...
I am very proud of my children...I don't believe drugs should be legal..
Thats just me...

My point was that the legal and regulated substance (alcohol) was harder to get then the unregulated illegal substance (pot). Therefore if you wanted to make it harder to get for kids then legalize it and regulate it.

530 albusteve  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:26:34pm

re: #522 Sharmuta

Bullshit.

this fraud has gone on long enough...people need to be held responsible

531 tradewind  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:26:34pm

re: #526 lawhawk
Pretty much mirrors the situation with the police department down here. After so many lawsuits and hassles for ' police brutality ' and ' profiling' , most of which are totally baseless, they have begun to just shrug and move on rather than get involved in some cases. Not a good thing, for the military or the police.

532 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:26:38pm

re: #515 recusancy

I agree about biochar.

Regarding the second bolded point I agree as well. But that's not the case. If it was we'd be on the way to fixing things already. We need governement because only government can tackle a problem this large. There's no price for carbon so there's no market forces to cause companies to innovate to decrease it.

The waste of carbon in conventional processes is simply stupid. We may see in the future, and shake our heads in disbelief at the waste of this valuable material.

Anything you pay for (coal, natural gas, etc.) should not leave a facility until every last bit of its substance is used to the fullest. Where I used to live, modern anti-freeze (ethylene glycol) was discovered by accident.

Seems the factories making nitroglycerine for use in smokeless powder had thousands of gallons of this useless crap lying around. It was a hassle, no one could find a use for it, so they dumped it into the river. Well, aside form killing the fish (which wasn't a really big deal, at the time) it caused the river around the dumping-point to not freeze solid, like the rest of the river. A light bulb went off in someone's head, and modern antifreeze was born.

Pollution is an inefficient use of resources, and a waste of money.

533 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:26:41pm

re: #509 Guanxi88

Now hemp is a different matter. That's a useful and, indeed, proven commodity crop with a wide range of uses. Would that it were more commonly cultivated...

Well, stems and seeds are waste products, as are the trunks. Great source of paper by the way. Much of the paper during revolutionary times was printed on hemp-based paper. Makes a cloth as durable as linen, too.

534 albusteve  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:26:58pm

re: #523 Gus 802

That's pretty funny because I was kidding when I said "bummer."

You seem to be lit up about this.

it's a slow burn

535 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:27:01pm

Corporate weed iz fascism, maaan!

536 Wind Rider  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:27:16pm

re: #525 HoosierHoops

I hear your concern about your kids - but pot is like any number of choices that they will have to make, and you really won't have any control over. The only thing that you CAN do, is to try to raise them to use their heads, think things through - to be aware of the consequence of choice (aside from the immediate).

537 Gus  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:27:39pm

re: #535 Killgore Trout

Corporate weed iz fascism, maaan!

You lie!

/

538 freetoken  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:27:51pm

re: #535 Killgore Trout

Just imagine if Monsanto created some GM marijuana...

539 oh_dude  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:27:55pm

re: #524 Naso Tang

Not really. I've been registered on LGF since 2004, but somebody said I wasn't cool because I didn't do a lot of posting over the years.

I am just now realizing that LGF has a Brownie Points system

All that Despite the fact that I've contributed $ regularly to the site (whether I always agreed with the owner or not).

540 The Left  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:28:06pm

re: #522 Sharmuta

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

541 brookly red  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:28:24pm

re: #528 iceweasel

They're a mess.

maybe, but they are our mess.

542 J.S.  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:28:28pm

OT

Larry King has on tonight's program a group of chefs...(one of whom worked as a pastry chef for a number of Presidents...) Anyway, the French pastrty chef considers it an extreme insult to call in a special "guest chef" to do The State Dinner...He figures it's a huge insult.

543 Achilles Tang  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:28:40pm

re: #462 iceweasel

yep! Moved the seekrit lair to scotland (and in with Jimmah) earlier this month. We decided two Soros operatives could live as cheaply as one, and that it made more sense to have one base of nefarious progressive operations.
Did you ever get to go to the Edinburgh festival? I've always wanted to go to that, never made it.

I think I went to one of the first ones. Late 60's. But I don't remember which pub it ended at.

Have to go back one day.

544 Gus  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:28:41pm

Great, another squabble session.

545 The Left  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:29:16pm

re: #544 Gus 802

Great, another squabble session.

Not on my part. Not going to happen.

546 Wind Rider  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:29:49pm

re: #539 oh_dude

Brownie points? Does having read through Charles' pre 9-11 material before AJAX, and before the Lizardoid cartoon get any of those?

547 Obdicut  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:29:54pm

re: #532 Guanxi88


Anything you pay for (coal, natural gas, etc.) should not leave a facility until every last bit of its substance is used to the fullest.

Benjamin Franklin was doing experiments with fully using coal way back when, including firing it without direct application of heat or flame.

One of my favorite Americans, and one of the few who I'd probably get along with, too.

548 The Left  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:30:03pm

re: #541 brookly red

maybe, but they are our mess.

They're New Yorkers' mess. Most of whom want them repealed.

549 borgcube  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:30:17pm

I'm jealous of all you potheads. I can only stay awake for maybe ten minutes after I smoke it. Probably closer to five. Sticking to my libertarian principles, I say legalize it while applying common sense laws about being under its influence.

550 Obdicut  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:30:30pm

OT: There are people brave and stupid enough to downding Charles' comments. That's something.

551 albusteve  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:30:54pm

re: #545 iceweasel

Not on my part. Not going to happen.

it's already done

552 kilroy  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:31:22pm

re: #538 freetoken

Some nerd at Monsanto probably has and it also works as an antibiotic and protean substitute.

553 [deleted]  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:31:22pm
554 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:32:01pm

re: #526 lawhawk

It's a troubling matter to say the least. From what I understand, the SEALs wanted a court martial instead of administrative action. However, any outcome is likely to result in these three SEALs ending their career with the special forces.

The SEALs busted the lip of a guy involved in the murder of four Blackwater guards in Fallujah. Is that grounds to end their careers? I don't think it should, but you can't ignore their duty to do the right thing either.

And in the future, soldiers will consider not taking prisoners rather than face prospects that put their careers in jeopardy, particularly when it comes to taking prisoners.

I'll go ahead and suggest foul on this. SEALs don't go off by busting someone's lip. Three SEALs, one fat lip? Really? Where was their OIC?

555 [deleted]  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:32:12pm
556 recusancy  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:32:14pm

re: #547 Obdicut

Benjamin Franklin was doing experiments with fully using coal way back when, including firing it without direct application of heat or flame.

One of my favorite Americans, and one of the few who I'd probably get along with, too.

Biochar was being used by Native Americans before Columbus showed up.

557 brookly red  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:32:26pm

re: #548 iceweasel

They're New Yorkers' mess. Most of whom want them repealed.

funny, I live here & I haven't noticed that...

558 albusteve  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:32:31pm

re: #549 borgcube

I'm jealous of all you potheads. I can only stay awake for maybe ten minutes after I smoke it. Probably closer to five. Sticking to my libertarian principles, I say legalize it while applying common sense laws about being under its influence.

it's not about the effect...pay attention, it's about choices and govt intervention

559 Racer X  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:32:39pm

The Illustrated Man: How LED Tattoos Could Make Your Skin a Screen

New LED tattoos from the University of Pennsylvania could make the Illustrated Man real (minus the creepy stories, of course). Researchers there are developing silicon-and-silk implantable devices which sit under the skin like a tattoo. Already implanted into mice, these tattoos could carry LEDs, turning your skin into a screen.

560 McSpiff  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:32:50pm

re: #555 iceweasel

Stay above the bickering Ice... Not worth it.

561 Obdicut  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:32:54pm

re: #555 iceweasel

Downdinged because:

re: #545 iceweasel

Not on my part. Not going to happen.

Stay true to that sentiment, and it'll be better.

562 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:32:59pm

I think it's time to watch Dr. Horrible.

563 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:33:12pm

re: #548 iceweasel

How are you finding the food over there? Not just the haggis but generally speaking.

564 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:33:15pm

re: #556 recusancy

Biochar was being used by Native Americans before Columbus showed up.

Yep - huge patches of rich, fertile soil in some of the thinnest, crappiest topsoils in the Amazon. Folk still "mine" these old terra preta sites and sell it for potting soil. Amazing stuff.

565 Obdicut  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:33:21pm

re: #562 Walter L. Newton

I think it's time to watch Dr. Horrible.

It's always time to watch Dr. Horrible.

Whedon just won an award for it, too.

566 Wind Rider  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:33:28pm

re: #559 Racer X

I'm not following how they skipped the creepy on this

567 Digital Display  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:33:40pm

re: #562 Walter L. Newton

I think it's time to watch Dr. Horrible.

Who is Dr. Horrible?

568 Racer X  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:33:57pm

So, how about them Raiders?

569 The Left  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:34:14pm

re: #560 McSpiff

Stay above the bickering Ice... Not worth it.

Agreed, but that needed to be addressed. I don't plan to address that person again.

570 oh_dude  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:34:17pm

re: #518 freetoken

Thanks, but this is my point exactly. Who has time to read all of this? You represent maybe 1% of the population that is willing to look into this.

I assume that remaining 99% of human race are supposed to simply TRUST our leaders...

571 Sharmuta  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:34:33pm

re: #560 McSpiff

Stay above the bickering Ice... Not worth it.

What bickering? Calling someone on their bullshit isn't bickering.

572 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:34:48pm

re: #556 recusancy

Biochar was being used by Native Americans before Columbus showed up.

Like a lot of brilliant agricultural technologies, it has to be re-discovered to be legitimated.

573 Achilles Tang  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:34:52pm

re: #539 oh_dude

Not really. I've been registered on LGF since 2004, but somebody said I wasn't cool because I didn't do a lot of posting over the years.

I am just now realizing that LGF has a Brownie Points system

All that Despite the fact that I've contributed $ regularly to the site (whether I always agreed with the owner or not).

Brownie Points works as well as Karma. No snobs here. Actually it is a convenient way of simply acknowledging each other without excessive verbiage, which unfortunately you started out with. Truth is your thoughts and questions have been dissected, sometime ad nauseam, here for some time so my humble advice is to read more before unloading all your pent up musings.

Other than that, welcome and hope you enjoy the trip.

574 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:34:53pm

re: #526 lawhawk


The SEALs busted the lip of a guy involved in the murder of four Blackwater guards in Fallujah. Is that grounds to end their careers?

And in the future, soldiers will consider not taking prisoners rather than face prospects that put their careers in jeopardy, particularly when it comes to taking prisoners.


I'm only as familiar with the case as laid out over a few comments here - but if the SEAL disobeyed a direct order -then he will be on trial for disobeying a direct order not punching someone. You don't disobey orders - there are consequences, and it's a shame, but thats how it goes.

To the second point - i'm assuming the military guys know what this is really about - the disobeying of an order. Not taking prisoners by act of mass murder is likely to bring a whole heap more trouble than is locking people in a room after asking them *politely* to be quiet.

575 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:35:12pm

My son is in Mumbai now, getting ready to lead the memorial event on Thursday.

Little Moshe's bedroom.

576 Digital Display  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:35:14pm

re: #568 Racer X

So, how about them Raiders?

What about them Colts?
/Bring up the Pacers and I'll drown myself..*wink*

577 tradewind  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:35:25pm

re: #566 Wind Rider
I want the jacket that the lizards have on V, the ones with the video embedded in the lapels. The ultimate nanny cam.

578 albusteve  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:35:29pm

re: #561 Obdicut

Downdinged because:

re: #545 iceweasel

Stay true to that sentiment, and it'll be better.

yes, your three short weeks here is notable to judge sentiment...

579 Racer X  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:35:47pm

re: #566 Wind Rider

I'm not following how they skipped the creepy on this

The video was. . . . interesting.

580 dwells38  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:35:47pm

re: #421 Racer X

Did you just say pot makes you stupid? LOL!!!

Pot makes you horny, hungry and maybe a little lazy unless you plan on spending all morning working on the changes to Giant Steps in which case you will be consumed by the mental and dextrous task at hand.

Maybe because pot is illegal only stupid people would admit to using it or complain publically about it's illegality and those are the only pot smokers of which you are aware.

581 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:36:06pm

re: #575 Alouette

My son is in Mumbai now, getting ready to lead the memorial event on Thursday.

Little Moshe's bedroom.

I still weep at the memory of it all.

582 oh_dude  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:37:05pm

re: #573 Naso Tang

See, this is what I'm talking about. I'm all blogged out.

Good night all. See you next year (i.e. my next posting).

583 McSpiff  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:37:36pm

re: #571 Sharmuta

Sharm, I'm not involved. Not taking sides either. But I come here for real politics, not the office type. You're both smart people, lets use those big beautiful brains to save the world!

584 Racer X  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:38:41pm

re: #580 dwells38

You have no idea.

585 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:39:04pm

re: #563 Killgore Trout

How are you finding the food over there? Not just the haggis but generally speaking.

The English created their Empire to absorb foreign cuisine so they wouldn't have to survive on bangers and mash, and bubble and squeak.

586 albusteve  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:39:09pm

re: #580 dwells38

Did you just say pot makes you stupid? LOL!!!

Pot makes you horny, hungry and maybe a little lazy unless you plan on spending all morning working on the changes to Giant Steps in which case you will be consumed by the mental and dextrous task at hand.

Maybe because pot is illegal only stupid people would admit to using it or complain publically about it's illegality and those are the only pot smokers of which you are aware.

what a neanderthal point of view...good thing you don't count...post some more fedhead...what do you intend to do with all the pot smokers of the worls?...disdain them into humility?...hahaha!...talk about dope

587 Achilles Tang  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:39:46pm

re: #582 oh_dude

See, this is what I'm talking about. I'm all blogged out.

Good night all. See you next year (i.e. my next posting).

What are you talking about?

588 Aye Pod  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:39:58pm

re: #571 Sharmuta

Charles deleted your comment. Go figure.

589 The Left  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:40:10pm

re: #563 Killgore Trout

How are you finding the food over there? Not just the haggis but generally speaking.

I'm afraid of haggis, but Jimmah wants me to try it so I won't be able to avoid it forever.
Generally the food is excellent in the UK honestly, especially if you're cooking. We had salmon last night that was incredible.
I lived in the UK before and I was pleasantly surprised by how good the supermarkets were where I was.
Scotland is different though. I think it's supposed to be the least healthy country in the EU, and I can believe it, solely because I'm severely underwhelmed by the fruit and veg selections even in the biggest places. (We went to a farmers market even, which was laughable). I think people here just don't buy or eat a lot of them.
But I've only been here about two weeks, so I'm hoping I'll find some better places. We're cooking a lot!

590 Capitalist Tool  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:41:06pm

re: #538 freetoken

Just imagine if Monsanto created some GM marijuana...


Sure. Right.
Monsanto makes pesticides, herbicides, fungicides- in-general-cides and now genetic manipulation. Isn't this a lovely scenario.

591 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:41:29pm

re: #568 Racer X

So, how about them Raiders?

They suck, but they keep pulling brilliant moves every third game. Don't thank the offense!

592 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:42:35pm

You'll bicker out
Makes a bloke feel - so proud.

593 Racer X  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:43:01pm
594 pyrodoctor  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:43:23pm

Based on the scientific fraud in the climate change arena I wouldn't believe anything these jokers say until a detailed investigation into the fraud has uncovered who's data are reliable and who's aren't.

595 Achilles Tang  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:44:22pm

re: #588 Jimmah

Charles deleted your comment. Go figure.

I think we have a new sheriff (policy) in town after the other day.

596 lawhawk  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:45:22pm

re: #517 Obdicut

You can't talk about taxes without talking about revenues. Otherwise, you're talking about penalties - not taxes.

As for using taxes to increase efficiency and decrease usage, technologies can do so without any government involvement.

CRT begets plasma begets LCD which begets LED - each of which is a technological leap that doesn't involve gov't taxes or penalties, and you not only get better and larger tvs, but more efficient ones at that.

Incandescent begets CFL which begets LED which begets OLED. Each is a more efficient light source.

Power production isn't a true market based problem because government has severely distorted the markets, and the solution would be to loosen the regulatory requirements to build new nuke power plants and distribution lines so that the power from alt-energy sources can come to the market.

597 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:45:24pm

re: #537 Gus 802

Heh.
Seen Skywalker O G. Indica?

598 Achilles Tang  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:46:04pm

re: #594 pyrodoctor

Based on the scientific fraud in the climate change arena I wouldn't believe anything these jokers say until a detailed investigation into the fraud has uncovered who's data are reliable and who's aren't.

You haven't actually been following any of this, have you? Not to mention that you don't appear to have a basic understanding of vocabulary either.

599 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:46:11pm

re: #589 iceweasel

I became frustrated with the American Food Network (always airing shows about cakes) so I started watching the UK cooking shows. They're really taking an interest in real food. Lots of shows promoting healthy eating and quality ingredients. When I was in the UK back in the 80's the food was awful. I visit fairly regularly over the past few years and the food has become much better. Give the haggis a try, it's really not that bad. Try pigeon too, it's surprisingly good.

600 Aye Pod  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:47:03pm

re: #589 iceweasel

It used to be even worse for veg, ice-ski. It took decades of culinary re-education to get us to where we are now. In the past, many in the UK only experienced veg in the form of steaming heaps of sprouts and boiled cabbage - way to put people off veg for life.

601 Digital Display  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:47:11pm

Speaking of Food...The farmers Market in Napa is to die for..Fresh veggies and fruit..But also you can buy fresh baked bread to take home...
It doesn't get any better..It just doesn't

602 Gus  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:47:21pm

re: #597 Rightwingconspirator

Heh.
Seen Skywalker O G. Indica?

Not until now. That looks really nice.

603 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:48:25pm

re: #602 Gus 802

Coming to or already within a dispensary near you.

604 citybilly  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:48:28pm

its not the science that bugs me when it comes to global warming /earf changes. its the Political Solutions that scare me.

605 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:48:40pm

re: #522 Sharmuta

Bullshit.

Forget about the kimchi, Comrade. No grass for you.

606 albusteve  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:49:16pm

re: #598 Naso Tang

You haven't actually been following any of this, have you? Not to mention that you don't appear to have a basic understanding of vocabulary either.

so us skeptics deserve your scorn?...not gonna work with me...so far the AGW problem is more of a money maker than a fix it kind of a deal...trillions are at stake...I'm unmoved by your condescension

607 borgcube  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:49:29pm

re: #550 Obdicut

OT: There are people brave and stupid enough to downding Charles' comments. That's something.

I disagree with Charles in many cases as I'm sure do others. It's one thing not to downding out of fear, quite another to not do so as a courtesy to the host of the blog. Either way, I don't think smart or dumb has anything to do with it.

I'm sure Charles appreciates seeing a downding here and there instead of a bunch of people afraid to engage and disagree. If I'm wrong, he can downding me and/or exile me right now. And how am I supposed to read your comments from now on (provided I'm still here in a few minutes that is) given that you might be inclined to post what may not be your true take on an issue? This is a moderated forum to be sure, but everything goes for the most part as long as it's kept respectful.

608 Gus  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:49:32pm

re: #602 Gus 802

Not until now. That looks really nice.

Cool. I actually don't smoke that much. Maybe 3 times a year.

609 tradewind  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:49:37pm

re: #594 pyrodoctor
If they're right, it doesn't matter anyway... if we only have ' a few years to turn it around ' they can forgeddabouddit. China, India, and the rest of the developing nations are not going to lift a finger.

610 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:50:07pm

re: #585 austin_blue

The English created their Empire to absorb foreign cuisine so they wouldn't have to survive on bangers and mash, and bubble and squeak.

Puh-leaze...if that's the case, why did they dedicate so much time and enrgy to the occupation of Ireland?

611 borgcube  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:50:07pm

re: #558 albusteve

I'm with you there 100%.

612 borgcube  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:51:05pm

re: #568 Racer X

Chargers fans want JaMarcus back in now!

613 albusteve  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:51:39pm

re: #601 HoosierHoops

Speaking of Food...The farmers Market in Napa is to die for..Fresh veggies and fruit..But also you can buy fresh baked bread to take home...
It doesn't get any better..It just doesn't

oh please...harvest time in the Rio Grande valley would put you millionaires Nappa Valley thing to shame...and we have bread in New Mexico too

614 tradewind  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:51:48pm

re: #605 MandyManners
I can never forget about the kimchee, literally. My first trip to Seoul, I am eating at an Irish pub (yeah, I know) with the rest of the crew, and they pull this ' this is traditional, you have to have a bite' trick. They shovel in a forkful of authentic kimchee that had been rotting in fish guts for months. Then they started to laugh.
Even though it didn't go down, I carried that awfulness around in my mouth for another few weeks.

615 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:53:49pm

re: #610 Fenway_Nation

Puh-leaze...if that's the case, why did they dedicate so much time and enrgy to the occupation of Ireland?

Whiskey.

616 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:54:05pm

re: #610 Fenway_Nation

Puh-leaze...if that's the case, why did they dedicate so much time and enrgy to the occupation of Ireland?

re: #615 Guanxi88

Whiskey.

And Irish babes.

617 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:54:06pm

re: #594 pyrodoctor

Based on the scientific fraud in the climate change arena I wouldn't believe anything these jokers say until a detailed investigation into the fraud has uncovered who's data are reliable and who's aren't.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the CRU emails. And I suspect you'd feel exactly the same even if the CRU emails hadn't been stolen.

618 tradewind  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:54:19pm

re: #590 Capitalist Tool
And the third world would rather starve than take a bite of GM corn.///

619 albusteve  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:54:24pm

Sharmuta
how's my little Simba doing?...has he drawn the blood of his guardian yet?...him Boss

620 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:54:34pm

re: #607 borgcube

I disagree with Charles in many cases as I'm sure do others. It's one thing not to downding out of fear, quite another to not do so as a courtesy to the host of the blog. Either way, I don't think smart or dumb has anything to do with it.

I'm sure Charles appreciates seeing a downding here and there instead of a bunch of people afraid to engage and disagree. If I'm wrong, he can downding me and/or exile me right now. And how am I supposed to read your comments from now on (provided I'm still here in a few minutes that is) given that you might be inclined to post what may not be your true take on an issue? This is a moderated forum to be sure, but everything goes for the most part as long as it's kept respectful.

Fine point. The best bit is about keeping it respectful.

621 Achilles Tang  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:54:35pm

re: #462 iceweasel

yep! Moved the seekrit lair to scotland (and in with Jimmah) earlier this month. We decided two Soros operatives could live as cheaply as one, and that it made more sense to have one base of nefarious progressive operations.
Did you ever get to go to the Edinburgh festival? I've always wanted to go to that, never made it.

I'm still digesting this. So, are you and Jimmah... like sharing a room?

Is LGF responsible for this? Come on. Don't be coy.

622 Digital Display  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:54:45pm

re: #613 albusteve

oh please...harvest time in the Rio Grande valley would put you millionaires Nappa Valley thing to shame...and we have bread in New Mexico too

I wonder why as the most famous Wine Growing region in the whole world nobody can figure out how the Spell Napa?
It's insulting...
/I'd love to try your home made bread..I'm spinning you up Steve...Be well
//It's Napa!

623 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:54:54pm

re: #607 borgcube

whe i was running my own place i had one rule - "don't spit on the rug".

Charles welcomes the divergent opinions here and i have picked him up acouple of times over things he's said in the comments sections. Nothing major - but i think he's even updinged me for it ;-)

624 Racer X  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:55:24pm

re: #612 borgcube

Chargers fans want JaMarcus back in now!

How did the Raiders score twice in the last minute to beat Cincinnati? I thought I was watching some weird sci-fi show.

625 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:55:39pm

re: #601 HoosierHoops

The culinary institute there is really cool too. They have little 30 minute demonstrations for the tourists and they also run a great restaurant.

626 Cato the Elder  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:55:42pm

re: #384 Obdicut

We can clearly intentionally alter the climate.

Even if that's true, I doubt we'll alter it right, or know when to stop.

Hubris.

627 Aye Pod  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:56:03pm

re: #599 Killgore Trout

I became frustrated with the American Food Network (always airing shows about cakes) so I started watching the UK cooking shows. They're really taking an interest in real food. Lots of shows promoting healthy eating and quality ingredients. When I was in the UK back in the 80's the food was awful. I visit fairly regularly over the past few years and the food has become much better. Give the haggis a try, it's really not that bad. Try pigeon too, it's surprisingly good.

Yep - the level of UK food is far higher now than it was a couple of decades back. I think much of the improvement is down to books and tv programmes that expanded peoples culinary horizons. Everyone's favourite from the 80's was "Masterchef" which was presented by the American food critic Lloyd Grossman. Here he is being parodied by Reeves and Mortimer:

628 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:56:21pm

re: #610 Fenway_Nation

Puh-leaze...if that's the case, why did they dedicate so much time and enrgy to the occupation of Ireland?

Aww...that was so 1655. I'm talking about India and Hong Kong.

629 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:56:52pm

re: #628 austin_blue

Aww...that was so 1655. I'm talking about India and Hong Kong.

I'm gonna go with my "babes" hypothesis again.

630 borgcube  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:57:06pm

re: #624 Racer X

Well, every time I see the Raiders at home, Darth Vader always seems to be in attendance.

631 albusteve  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:57:13pm

re: #622 HoosierHoops

I wonder why as the most famous Wine Growing region in the whole world nobody can figure out how the Spell Napa?
It's insulting...
/I'd love to try your home made bread..I'm spinning you up Steve...Be well
//It's Napa!

sorry Neppa Valley just does not register...
Neppa
Nappa
Noppa
we're as happy as can be!

632 tradewind  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:57:25pm

re: #628 austin_blue
Since the last time I was in Brighton, all I could find to eat was Indian and Thai, it looks as if the sun has truly set on the British culinary empire.///

633 Obdicut  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:57:45pm

re: #596 lawhawk

You can't talk about taxes without talking about revenues. Otherwise, you're talking about penalties - not taxes.

No, they're still taxes even if you're not depending on them for a revenue stream. The entire point of a tax can be so that that tax eventually dries up; it indicates the thing being taxed is decreasing in utilization. You can call that a penalty if you want, but it's a tax serving as a penalty.

re: #596 lawhawk


Power production isn't a true market based problem because government has severely distorted the markets, and the solution would be to loosen the regulatory requirements to build new nuke power plants and distribution lines so that the power from alt-energy sources can come to the market.

Nuclear plants cannot be built without a huge amount of government subsidy, so that's not really the best argument for market solutions.

I agree we need to reregulate the grid; I don't think in terms of regulations as looser or tighter but just more or less appropriate for the situation. Heavy regulation appropriate for thirty years ago is, in effect, very little modern regulation, and most of that of the wrong kind.

634 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:58:18pm

re: #629 Guanxi88

can't go wrong with babes... until one gathers their own embarrasing list of anecdotes involving headboards, scarves and missing wallets/.

635 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:58:53pm

re: #634 wozzablog

can't go wrong with babes... until one gathers their own embarrasing list of anecdotes involving headboards, scarves and missing wallets/.

Been the ruin of many a young man
And Lord knows, I'm one.

636 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:58:53pm

re: #526 lawhawk

It's a troubling matter to say the least. From what I understand, the SEALs wanted a court martial instead of administrative action. However, any outcome is likely to result in these three SEALs ending their career with the special forces.

The SEALs busted the lip of a guy involved in the murder of four Blackwater guards in Fallujah. Is that grounds to end their careers? I don't think it should, but you can't ignore their duty to do the right thing either.

And in the future, soldiers will consider not taking prisoners rather than face prospects that put their careers in jeopardy, particularly when it comes to taking prisoners.

Filing a false official statement is not a good thing. Ever. Anywhere.

637 albusteve  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:59:42pm

re: #632 tradewind

Since the last time I was in Brighton, all I could find to eat was Indian and Thai, it looks as if the sun has truly set on the British culinary empire.///

my dad was there like 7 times...he prefered K-Rats to English food...what's up with Charlie?

638 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:59:45pm

re: #632 tradewind

trust me - when the alternative is fish and chips or the millionth Steak and Ale Pie a great curry is something to trully behold and savour...


(drools over keyboard)

639 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:59:57pm

re: #594 pyrodoctor

Based on the scientific fraud in the climate change arena I wouldn't believe anything these jokers say until a detailed investigation into the fraud has uncovered who's data are reliable and who's aren't.

Oh, dear. Please refer to

[Link: www.realclimate.org...]

to educate yourself on your ignorance.

It really is important

640 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 6:59:59pm

re: #622 HoosierHoops

Miss Utah 2007 bakes her own bread.

641 Achilles Tang  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:00:33pm

re: #606 albusteve

so us skeptics deserve your scorn?...not gonna work with me...so far the AGW problem is more of a money maker than a fix it kind of a deal...trillions are at stake...I'm unmoved by your condescension

No skeptics don't deserve scorn, only the arguments they present if they are lacking, trite, full of knee jerk slogans, and words like fraud without support.

There are more potential losers than gainers in the AGW equation, so it should be simple to identify the winners, of trillions, who presumably are perpetuating the fraud, deliberately and with malice.

Can you do that?

642 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:00:49pm

re: #640 Fenway_Nation

Miss Utah 2007 bakes her own bread.

Probably from her own provident pantry's one-year supply of whole winter wheat. (Mormons are food-hoarders, for those who don't know)

643 Obdicut  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:01:21pm

re: #626 Cato the Elder

Even if that's true, I doubt we'll alter it right, or know when to stop.

Hubris.

Yes, just like we failed to get the ozone layer to repair itself by limiting what we were doing that destroyed it.

Oh, wait, we did fix that problem, that was affecting the global climate, and was caused by human activity. Amazing. We've already committed a terrible hubris.

We're going to need to be hubristical, if your definition of hubris is simply using our understanding of the natural world for practical ends.

Since there are no shepherd-molesting jealous gods with thunderbolts and curses to strike us for doing so, I'm not sure why you think hubris is a warning, either.

644 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:01:36pm

re: #629 Guanxi88

I'm gonna go with my "babes" hypothesis again.

Significant merit!

Image: aishwarya_rai.jpg

645 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:01:42pm

re: #634 wozzablog

can't go wrong with babes... until one gathers their own embarrasing list of anecdotes involving headboards, scarves and missing wallets/.

Or an unintended re-make of The Crying Game.

Seriously...what kind of fucked up shit is that?

646 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:01:45pm

re: #613 albusteve

FOOD FIGHT! :)

647 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:01:55pm

re: #627 Jimmah

Yep - the level of UK food is far higher now than it was a couple of decades back. I think much of the improvement is down to books and tv programmes that expanded peoples culinary horizons.


It's something that will hopefully become fashionable here in the US soon. River Cottage has converted me to free range meat. I hadn't seriously considered it before but I'm giving it a try.

648 Capitalist Tool  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:02:02pm

re: #618 tradewind

And the third world would rather starve than take a bite of GM corn.///

Someone came up with a GM golden rice which contained an increased level of vitamin A in hopes of staving off the tragic early loss of eyesight among Himalayan populations and his rice was banned, of course.

649 Aye Pod  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:02:10pm

re: #621 Naso Tang

I'm still digesting this. So, are you and Jimmah... like sharing a room?

Is LGF responsible for this? Come on. Don't be coy.

Yes we are! We announced our impending nuptials a few weeks ago here on LGF. And yes, we met here so it's a true LGF love story. We are getting married at a secret location in the USA next month :)

650 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:02:55pm

re: #644 austin_blue

Significant merit!

[Link: www.bihartimes.com...]

Yep, I tell you what. They can go on and on about commerce and Empire and their duty to lead the heathen to the light. I take one look at most places they colonized, and I see rich resources and babes in abundance. I got John Bull's number.

651 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:03:02pm

re: #645 Fenway_Nation

shhh.

can't give away the ending of that film... ;-)

it's teh lore

Damn good film as it happens though.

652 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:03:08pm

re: #649 Jimmah

Yes we are! We announced our impending nuptials a few weeks ago here on LGF. And yes, we met here so it's a true LGF love story. We are getting married at a secret location in the USA next month :)

Ah, you crazy kids! Mazel Tov!

653 Achilles Tang  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:04:10pm

re: #621 Naso Tang

I'm still digesting this. So, are you and Jimmah... like sharing a room?

Is LGF responsible for this? Come on. Don't be coy.

Well, one of you two gave me 3000, so you can decide which one of you I owe a pint.

Cheers

654 albusteve  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:04:10pm

re: #641 Naso Tang

No skeptics don't deserve scorn, only the arguments they present if they are lacking, trite, full of knee jerk slogans, and words like fraud without support.

There are more potential losers than gainers in the AGW equation, so it should be simple to identify the winners, of trillions, who presumably are perpetuating the fraud, deliberately and with malice.

Can you do that?

no, I won't play the game...nothing is easy about it unless you are drunk on the kool aid...bring it on

655 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:04:12pm

re: #649 Jimmah

Yes we are! We announced our impending nuptials a few weeks ago here on LGF. And yes, we met here so it's a true LGF love story. We are getting married at the Hoboken Ramada a secret location in the USA next month :)

656 Achilles Tang  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:04:54pm

re: #649 Jimmah

Yes we are! We announced our impending nuptials a few weeks ago here on LGF. And yes, we met here so it's a true LGF love story. We are getting married at a secret location in the USA next month :)

Wow. I am speechless.

657 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:05:00pm

re: #642 Guanxi88

Probably from her own provident pantry's one-year supply of whole winter wheat. (Mormons are food-hoarders, for those who don't know)

Nah...according to her bio somewhere, her mom shipped her a breadmaker while she was stationed in Afghanistan.

Didn't have her pegged as a Mormon 'til I saw that she wore a one-piece bathing suit in the competition...

658 albusteve  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:05:23pm

re: #646 Rightwingconspirator

FOOD FIGHT! :)

do you see this ORANGE?

659 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:05:27pm

re: #649 Jimmah

Okay secret location is cool.

Webcam??

660 Achilles Tang  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:05:47pm

re: #654 albusteve

no, I won't play the game...nothing is easy about it unless you are drunk on the kool aid...bring it on

Our moods are not matched this evening. I'll pass tonight.

661 The Left  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:05:54pm

re: #655 Guanxi88

Yes we are! We announced our impending nuptials a few weeks ago here on LGF. And yes, we met here so it's a true LGF love story. We are getting married at the incredibly romantic and exclusive Hoboken Ramada a secret location in the USA next month :)

FTFY. :)

662 citybilly  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:06:17pm

re: #618 tradewind hear him! hear him!

663 dwells38  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:07:00pm

re: #441 Racer X

re: #432 Racer X

Ben Franklin would have said "Smoke not to dullness".

RX, do you realize your friend was probably making excuses for being a lazy ass? It was the pot man! Give me break. Who made him smoke pot instead of look for a job? Oh right! He himself!!!
I've smoked pot and enjoyed it. I have a job. I've ALWAYS had a job.

Sure let's let him ruin it for the rest of us.

So why doesn't the guy that drove drunk the wrong way on I-71 and murdered (inadvertantly) 27 high school kids and chaperones in 1988 ruin drinking alchohol for the rest of us?

I dunno.

664 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:07:07pm

re: #657 Fenway_Nation

Nah...according to her bio somewhere, her mom shipped her a breadmaker while she was stationed in Afghanistan.

Didn't have her pegged as a Mormon 'til I saw that she wore a one-piece bathing suit in the competition...

I give the LDS folk grief, but they seem nice enough, don't seem to be too awfully whacky in their daily lives. But they do hoard food, man. Comes the famine and they start rounding you up to give you a chip so you can't buy your Soylent Green rations without it, just raid the nearest LDS house - they're always fully stocked.

665 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:07:26pm

re: #658 albusteve

The CLOCKWORK orange?

666 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:07:38pm

re: #657 Fenway_Nation

Nah...according to her bio somewhere, her mom shipped her a breadmaker while she was stationed in Afghanistan.

Didn't have her pegged as a Mormon 'til I saw that she wore a one-piece bathing suit in the competition...

Was that to hide the Magic Underwear?

Kidding. Kinda. Okay, that was snarky. I apologize.

667 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:08:03pm

re: #665 Rightwingconspirator

The CLOCKWORK orange?

Care for a little milk plus, drughi?

668 Aye Pod  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:08:39pm

re: #653 Naso Tang

Well, one of you two gave me 3000, so you can decide which one of you I owe a pint.

Cheers

A pint of Stella Artois for ice-ski it is then :)

669 Richie  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:08:44pm

I predict the US will continue to drag its feet and scientists will continue to revise their predictions. The rest of us will watch horrible stories on TV but will otherwise be unaffected.

670 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:09:30pm

re: #669 Richie

I predict the US will continue to drag its feet and scientists will continue to revise their predictions. The rest of us will watch horrible stories on TV but will otherwise be unaffected.

That is probably accurate, and certainly applicable to this and many other stories (H1N1, SARS, etc.)

671 ryannon  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:10:24pm

re: #505 Racer X

Cannondale Concept Updates The Dutch Bike

Designed for Cannondale, the Dutchess is a woman’s bike based on the heavy old Dutch bikes popular in Europe (hence the punnish, creatively misspelled name). At fist glance you actually see nothing more than a streamlined, duck-egg blue version of the these omafiets (granny-bikes). But take another glance at the hubs, bottom-bracket, handlebars and even the rear fender and it starts to reveal itself as a rather futuristic machine.

First, the frame itself. The whole bike weighs in at just 14 Kg (31 pounds) and is based around the swooping bar that runs from the handlebar all the way to the back. On top of that is the tubular fender, which is structural and can support up to 50 Kg, or 110 pounds. Inside these hollow tubes are contained the brake lines (they are hydraulic) and cabling for the lights (they’re built-in and powered by the hubs).

Speaking of the hubs, these are innovative in themselves. The rims are laced to a generic hub into which can be slotted various cassettes. This means that both front and back wheels are identical, only the rear has the drive system and brake, and the front a generator and a brake. This would make repairs easier as you don’t have to rebuild the whole wheel just to change hubs. Wytze is realistic, though. Speaking to the excellent Bicycle Design blog, he says that “This is dreaming: [the hub] is a better standard then the current solution, but it will never happen.”

Another thing that may never happen is the crank, which as you can see does not use a chain. The actual drive train has not been revealed by Wytze, although it may have something in common with another design he came up with for a folding bike, which uses a cord and a cone-shaped freewheel to transfer power. In the accompanying video (below) it seems to work fine, and Wytze told Bicycle Design that the efficiency is a resectable 96%, compared to a chain’s 98%.

Check these out - especially the Guv'nor Plus Four and the classic Roadsters...

672 dwells38  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:11:26pm

re: #446 austin_blue

Ah yes. I'm glad we've gotten it down to scientific exactitude here! :)

673 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:11:38pm

re: #644 austin_blue

Significant merit!

[Link: www.bihartimes.com...]


Ooooh! Shiny!

674 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:11:38pm

re: #671 ryannon

Check these out - especially the Guv'nor Plus Four and the classic Roadsters...

Bah! Pashley's cost a fortune, man. Get a Flying Pigeon or a Yongjiu.

675 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:12:11pm

re: #673 Fenway_Nation

Ooooh! Shiny!

Shiny! More like Teh Hawt, my friend.

676 albusteve  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:12:38pm

re: #671 ryannon

Check these out - especially the Guv'nor Plus Four and the classic Roadsters...

classic roadsters?...

Image: sebring-green-1b.jpg

677 dwells38  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:13:39pm

re: #507 Gus 802

Sin tax man. Suck it up.

678 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:14:07pm

re: #674 Guanxi88

Bah! Pashley's cost a fortune, man. Get a Flying Pigeon or a Yongjiu.

[Link: velospace.org...]

[Link: thebagelchronicles.typepad.com...]

For pics of these great old bikes. I ride a Flying Pigeon (feige) double-bar men's bike. Love it.

679 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:14:27pm

re: #669 Richie

I predict the US will continue to drag its feet and scientists will continue to revise their predictions. The rest of us will watch horrible stories on TV but will otherwise be unaffected.

Hmmm...think of short-term local weather changes 200 years ago as a relatively low amplitude sine wave. What increased CO2 levels promise is more severe rain events, more severe droughts, more active tornado systems, and when the conditions are right, more severe hurricane seasons. Good that you won't be affected.

680 albusteve  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:14:41pm

re: #677 dwells38

Sin tax man. Suck it up.

no...the difference between us...you are a puss and I'm not

681 Digital Display  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:14:58pm

This whole thing about hacked email is bothering me.. It's just not that simple..You can hack an email account...But this is dealing with a backend database of archived emails...You just can't get from here to there to a database archive..There are so many Admin levels to go through to get and restore the PST file...It doesn't make sense.. My buddy in the cube next to me does this for our Enterprise...I'm going to research this with him and post on it Weds.
You just don't see this happening because of the layers involved.. I think it is an inside job..But I'll check this out and report back...

682 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:17:27pm

And everything suddenly became very still...

683 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:17:43pm

re: #681 HoosierHoops

This whole thing about hacked email is bothering me.. It's just not that simple..You can hack an email account...But this is dealing with a backend database of archived emails...You just can't get from here to there to a database archive..There are so many Admin levels to go through to get and restore the PST file...It doesn't make sense.. My buddy in the cube next to me does this for our Enterprise...I'm going to research this with him and post on it Weds.
You just don't see this happening because of the layers involved.. I think it is an inside job..But I'll check this out and report back...

Are you suggesting that a poster was a backdoor trojan horse?

684 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:17:55pm

re: #681 HoosierHoops

To me the IT side may be complicated but it's simple apart from that. Hacked=unreliable irretrievably poisoned right from the get go. No credence should be paid to a hack that could easily include fraudulent text.

685 The Left  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:18:08pm

Off to be domestic, even if I am an export.

Have a great day/night/crepuscular time, lizards!

686 citybilly  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:18:16pm

re: #641 Naso Tang

i agree with this. it reminds me a lot of my conversations with anti Iraq war friends.

quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur

687 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:18:36pm

re: #663 dwells38

(snip) himself!!!
I've smoked pot and enjoyed it. I have a job. I've ALWAYS had a job.

Sure let's let him ruin it for the rest of us.

So why doesn't the guy that drove drunk the wrong way on I-71 and murdered (inadvertantly) 27 high school kids and chaperones in 1988 ruin drinking alchohol for the rest of us?

I dunno.

Hey, give him a break. He served almost 3 months for each kid.

688 austin_blue  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:18:45pm

re: #685 iceweasel

Night Ice.

689 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:18:57pm

re: #681 HoosierHoops

This whole thing about hacked email is bothering me.. It's just not that simple..You can hack an email account...But this is dealing with a backend database of archived emails...You just can't get from here to there to a database archive..There are so many Admin levels to go through to get and restore the PST file...It doesn't make sense.. My buddy in the cube next to me does this for our Enterprise...I'm going to research this with him and post on it Weds.
You just don't see this happening because of the layers involved.. I think it is an inside job..But I'll check this out and report back...

Oh no, not a mad scientist!

690 Guanxi88  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:19:52pm

re: #689 Spare O'Lake

Oh no, not a mad scientist!

Fools! I'll destroy them all!

691 rhino2  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:23:00pm

re: #526 lawhawk

It's a troubling matter to say the least. From what I understand, the SEALs wanted a court martial instead of administrative action. However, any outcome is likely to result in these three SEALs ending their career with the special forces.

The SEALs busted the lip of a guy involved in the murder of four Blackwater guards in Fallujah. Is that grounds to end their careers? I don't think it should, but you can't ignore their duty to do the right thing either.

And in the future, soldiers will consider not taking prisoners rather than face prospects that put their careers in jeopardy, particularly when it comes to taking prisoners.

Well said.

692 citybilly  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:23:37pm

re: #681 HoosierHoops

i think it was a western intelligence group operating out of Russia that is behind the hack/leak. The motive i think is what ever nation is behind it has a very real fear of the Economic Impact caused by some measures proposed to lessen the effects of a warming earth.
i have no proof. just a hunch. cheers.

693 Aye Pod  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:24:27pm

Goodnight folks :)

694 Bagua  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:24:56pm

Bagua is back from dinner, pondering the mysteries of life.

Why is it Caucasians do not eat at soul food joints? It's some of the best food in Texas. Yet no diversity.

695 Digital Display  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:25:10pm

re: #683 austin_blue

Are you suggesting that a poster was a backdoor trojan horse?

Even a trojan horse could not pull up the proper tapes, Load them into the drive and download the data..Send it outside the firewall via a PST file...
I've got to talk to my bud..Cause this is unheard of..The layers are so complex to drive the tape drives is incredible...I'll check this out..But really..My gut feeling is it is an inside job..My colleague will set this straight

696 Bagua  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:25:33pm

Did peace and love break out in my absence?

697 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:27:28pm

re: #696 Bagua

Did peace and love break out in my absence?

What do you think Sunshine?

698 citybilly  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:28:21pm

in other Spook related news.

CIA chief has ‘confrontational’ meeting with Pakistani spymaster
.

...According to Pakistani media accounts, the meeting between the two men —the second in less than two months— was confrontational and marred by serious differences between the ISI and the CIA —two agencies that rarely see eye-to-eye lately. Citing “well-placed sources”, Pakistani daily The Nation said that the ISI spymaster “expressed his disappointment” to Panetta about the CIA’s “dismal role in countering terrorism” in Pakistan and its “failure to provide concrete actionable information” to the Pakistani secret services.

well imagine that ...

699 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:29:28pm

Folks, there are excellent benefits when one employs the "cut-direct".

700 Digital Display  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:30:18pm

re: #692 citybilly

i think it was a western intelligence group operating out of Russia that is behind the hack/leak. The motive i think is what ever nation is behind it has a very real fear of the Economic Impact caused by some measures proposed to lessen the effects of a warming earth.
i have no proof. just a hunch. cheers.

The pst file was FTP'd to a Russian file server..That is a fact...I'm talking about a lower level access the Database...

701 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:30:27pm

my good deed for the day is done.

finally got a computer finished for the widowed mom across the street - curse dell and their proprietary systems


*shakes fist @ the sky and wanders off into the lonesome middle distance - possibly fading into a montage*

702 dwells38  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:40:25pm

re: #586 albusteve

what a neanderthal point of view...good thing you don't count...post some more fedhead...what do you intend to do with all the pot smokers of the worls?...disdain them into humility?...hahaha!...talk about dope

Make a coherent post and maybe I'll respond to it. But then again you didn't bother because you look down your prejudiced nose at anyone who smokes pot, right? You were only seeking approval from like-minded friends, right?

703 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:40:38pm

re: #700 HoosierHoops

The pst file was FTP'd to a Russian file server..That is a fact...I'm talking about a lower level access the Database...

I like your idea, it makes a lot of sense.
Maybe a pissed-off scientist who got passed over for a promotion or some plum research grant.

704 dwells38  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:44:50pm

re: #702 dwells38

But actually I did respond to it.

Not because I'm high. Only because I'm distracted by this confounded latancy on this blog lately. Has anyone else noticed CHarles's new adds play havoc with the performance of this site sometimes? I gotta hand it to Charles and team they've stayed all over available tech to make this place run smoothly but just in the last couple weeks or so the adds within the comments have totally locked up the browser at times with no recovery or like tonight caused this lousy intermittent delay.

STill it's a great place. No complaints

705 dwells38  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:52:32pm

re: #599 Killgore Trout

I was there last summer in Brighton, Winchester, York, Glouchester and finally London. It was wonderful!

I hear what your're saying in that the media there is hip to healthy eating as it is here in the US pretty much. However I was appalled at the portions and the traditional English fare is rather startling. I ordered "Bangers and Mash" and was given sausage and mashed potatoes to feed an army regiment. Seriously! It was WAY TOO MUCH.

I do like those mashed peas they serve with fish and chips meals. Just like thick pea soup. YUM!!

706 Digital Display  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:53:03pm

re: #703 Spare O'Lake

I like your idea, it makes a lot of sense.
Maybe a pissed-off scientist who got passed over for a promotion or some plum research grant.

You just rarely hear about a low level email database hack...The levels are so complex and the steps are protected..This isn't breaking into a yahoo account by spoofing an password..This is so complex and the ability to transfer is unheard off.. Look if this was possible I could read all the WH emails for the last 8 years...I think it's an inside job...But I'll research this and get back with you...Emails are grouped into small Dbases for restores...Somebody restored emails going back 10 years..You just can't hack archives like that..
It doesn't pass the smell test.. It spans too many Dbases on tape into 1 file..

707 Ricblog  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:56:07pm

re: #100 ricblog

The Fat Lady has sung, Elvis has left the building and the AGW party is over. Nothing more to see here, so move along. Oh, I almost forgot,,, It's Bush's fault. ric

More Fun For You AGW :

708 Cato the Elder  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 7:56:42pm

re: #643 Obdicut

Yes, just like we failed to get the ozone layer to repair itself by limiting what we were doing that destroyed it.

Except we didn't. As far as I know, the ozone layer problem and the ozone hole are still there. We've just moved on to bigger, scarier bogeymen.

709 dwells38  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 8:01:59pm

re: #464 tradewind

Wouldn't you have the same problem with tobacco assuming its smoked? And pot doesn't have to be smoked. It can be baked into a congestible medium, as well which might make it's affects more easily and accurately measured.

710 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 8:02:17pm

re: #708 Cato the Elder

Except we didn't. As far as I know, the ozone layer problem and the ozone hole are still there. We've just moved on to bigger, scarier bogeymen.

Mending Ozone Hole May Benefit Climate Change: Scientific American

Decades of chemical pollution have damaged the ozone layer of the upper atmosphere that shields Earth from the harmful effects of the sun's ultraviolet rays, each summer eating a hole over the South Pole that expands to nearly the size of Antarctica. But since 1996, when an international treaty banned the culprit chemical refrigerants and propellants (known as CFCs, or chlorofluorocarbons), the size of the seasonal tear has been shrinking—and scientists predict it may stop forming by the end of this century.

711 zephirus  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 8:02:21pm

re: #705 dwells38

I was at a conference in Cambridge a few years back and my oh my. Pizza & baked potato special, cold tuna & corn "salad", spaghettios for breakfast... weird food combos.

712 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 8:04:55pm

re: #708 Cato the Elder

you may find this interesting...
[Link: www.sciencedaily.com...]

713 zephirus  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 8:11:10pm

re: #708 Cato the Elder

The size of the ozone hole was increasing rapidly during the 80's and 90's and peaked several years ago. The level of stratospheric CFCs (chlorflourocarbons) have been decreasing since the Montreal protocol. Full recovery will take a few decades because the CFCs have a long lifetime in the stratosphere.

The willingness to ban CFCs was due partially to the fact that other non-harmful compounds were available to take their place and money could be made by producing them.

714 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 8:11:18pm

Charles you are quick!
Great news in any case for us humans reducing our impact. A necessity in AGW, but a damn good idea in any case. Like our quality of life, our costs, and our health. 4 for 4.

715 dwells38  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 8:19:13pm

re: #680 albusteve

No your're obvsiously a fucking idiot. And that's not bickering. That's an objective observation

716 dwells38  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 8:21:32pm

re: #687 Decatur Deb

Sick, I agree.

717 lostlakehiker  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 8:22:36pm

re: #205 Spare O'Lake

Who's laughing? I asked a few questions, and I found your tone rather defensive and insulting.

Wouldn't you think that these folks would have proofread the paper? Pretty pathetic, wouldn't you say?

I certainly agree that a 25 year average is more reliable than a 2 year average. But the 2 years just happen to be the last 2 years, so how can that be so easily dismissed?
Also, I would have thought that 1000 year or at least 500 year averages would be better than 25 years. 25 years seems like a drop in the bucket to me, especially considering what is at stake. What do the longer averages show? Do folks cherry-pick their time frames to suit their agendas?

As far as the sea-level rise goes, I think we better get to work on storing a whole lot of fresh water from the melting ice in inland reservoirs. For starters, let's capture the fresh water from the melting icebergs. Maybe that can help to slow down the sea-level problem and green some deserts too.

The longer the time interval the better you screen out accidental blips. A running 50-year average would be more robust. But it would also lag farther behind what is now happening. 25 years is a compromise. A running 25-year average is something that cannot be cherry-picked, and so is a running 50 year average.

As to capturing fresh water and using it to irrigate deserts, once that water has passed through the growing plants and into the air, will it rain out again over the desert? Or will the still-relatively dry air above the farm blow away, later to mingle with wetter air and deposit rain into --- the ocean!?

There is no practical way to sequester the gigatons of water coming off Greenland. It goes into the ocean, like it or not.

718 zephirus  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 8:23:43pm

re: #701 wozzablog

Well, that was a nice thing to do for your neighbor.
As for computers, my OS of choice is MAC. Got tired of trying to administer all the linux boxes in my lab, and I don't do Windows. My life got a lot easier when I went with MACS, and I like the UNIX under the hood. Two servers, a RAID 3 laptops,G5 workstation, iMAC...all have worked perfectly for years now.

719 speakingtruthtogroupthink  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 8:26:59pm

Only 6 1/2 feet you say? Will that be deep enough to cleanse the coasts of all blue muck that has built up on our shores?

720 Decatur Deb  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 8:28:01pm

re: #716 dwells38

Mostly military dependants from Knox.

721 zephirus  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 8:30:23pm

re: #719 speakingtruthtogroupthink

If there is "blue muck" along the No/So Carolina, Florida, Lousiana and Texas coasts, yes.

722 speakingtruthtogroupthink  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 8:34:11pm

re: #721 zephirus

Yes there most certainly is some there as well, but surprisingly so, so much less. Must have something to do w/ the currents.

723 citybilly  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 8:35:49pm

re: #719 speakingtruthtogroupthink

Only 6 1/2 feet you say? Will that be deep enough to cleanse the coasts of all blue muck that has built up on our shores?

So Pious!

724 zephirus  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 8:38:17pm

re: #717 lostlakehiker

A 25 yr average can be problematic, given that it doesn't include many El-Nino cycles, and only 2 solar cycles. Defining the "baseline" climate, to which current changes are referenced is also something that has to be carefully considered. Many people use something like the 1960-1990 mean as a reference I think.

725 speakingtruthtogroupthink  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 8:42:42pm

re: #723 citybilly

pious 
1. having or showing a dutiful spirit of reverence for God or an earnest wish to fulfill religious obligations.
2. characterized by a hypocritical concern with virtue or religious devotion; sanctimonious.

Definition one or two? {fingers crossed, ...let it be def. 1, let it be def. 1}

726 saik0max0r  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 8:46:12pm

sigh... after pretending to be scientists, now they are pretending to be doctors.


Lets fire the entire lot of them, white label all the research and redistribute it epidemiology style to a new batch of independent researchers.

Or perhaps spend the money on getting better measurements and understanding instead of engaging in bollocks marketing in an effort to make AlGore rich(er).

727 saik0max0r  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 8:50:37pm

re: #706 HoosierHoops

If it wasn't a routine fail by Phil Jones (he's left stuff lying around on anon ftp servers before..) It was most likely an insider... sysadmin would be my guess, or someone who compromised the sysadmin's (as opposed to a researchers) credentials.

728 steve  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 8:56:18pm

Maybe it is not the oceans rising but the land sinking!

just saying!

729 Bagua  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 9:00:13pm

re: #706 HoosierHoops


The email files were not in a pst database, they were already rendered into text documents and gathered in a file, possible in preparation for a FOIA answer. Some preceded pst files.

Only file copy access was needed.

730 doubter4444  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 9:22:11pm

re: #719 speakingtruthtogroupthink

Only 6 1/2 feet you say? Will that be deep enough to cleanse the coasts of all blue muck that has built up on our shores?

Fuck off.
I'm not in a good mood, and that kind of glib generalization always bugs me, but tonight in particular, pisses me off.
From your nic, you seem to be a piss pot wanker awfully full of yourself.
So perhaps you do actually wish the death of millions because you perceive them to be anti your political agenda.
I know that's the extreme interpretation of your post, but as I said, it's a gilbertrian bullshit comment, and I'm tired, and I think it sucks.

731 Obdicut  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 9:24:09pm

re: #708 Cato the Elder

Except we didn't. As far as I know, the ozone layer problem and the ozone hole are still there. We've just moved on to bigger, scarier bogeymen.

Well, as Charles linked to-- no, we did, as I said, actually nip that in the bud and now it's fixing itself. It's pretty cool, really.

We learned a lot of good lessons from that that are being worked into most of the policy proposals for CO2 regulation, as well. So take heart, we're not completely blind here.

732 MurphyB  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 9:36:32pm

My fervent hope in that the the CRU will be ACORNed. Meaning, there is more to come. The apologists rush out to defend the indefensible and then - BANG - an other data dump occurs only to bury those that jumped into the hole. It would give a whole new meaning to Thanksgiving.

733 Charles Johnson  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 10:00:19pm

re: #732 MurphyB

I suggest you hold your breath while waiting for your "fervent hope."

734 nomra  Tue, Nov 24, 2009 10:16:24pm

re: #136 Charles

Manus Island in Papua New Guinea.

From that link:
And Timothy fears that the worst is yet to happen with the whole of Manus Island slowly sinking under the sea. Timothy said most of the villagers in Lawes relocated further inland after first experiencing rising sea levels.

Not likely. Its highest point is 718 meters see: [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

735 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 25, 2009 1:57:41am
736 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Nov 25, 2009 5:52:22am

re: #718 zephirus

thanks. been working on it a while - scrounging what i could from ebay and whatnot. total cost was minimal financially - just a bbit time instensive.

went with XP - it's been what she used for years before her last pc gave up the ghost.

737 speakingtruthtogroupthink  Wed, Nov 25, 2009 7:34:00am

re: #730 doubter4444

Fuck off.
I'm not in a good mood, {w/o a formal baseline to view against, this maybe in fact be a "good mood" for you, you are not an objective source, and you may be using some sort of "trick" to create the outcome you desire.}and that kind of glib generalization always bugs me

{as it should. It was in fact, glib.}

, but tonight in particular, pisses me off

{once again, you may be prone to this type reaction more than you suspect, so let's not limit it to"tonite" just yet}.

From your nic, you seem to be a piss pot wanker awfully full of yourself {rumor is pious, but which definition?}.So perhaps you do actually wish the death of millions because you perceive them to be anti your political agenda {this type of interpretation leads me to believe you are probably prone to over reacting. How do you feel your ability to grasp sarcasm rates, or the ability to identify the use of hyperbole? Kind of mental blind spot for you?}
I know that's the extreme interpretation of your post

{analytical light bulb goes off...good sign.},

but as I said, it's a gilbertrian {need to google that to make sure and...ok. May use that in future w/ your permission.} bullshit comment, and I'm tired, and I think it sucks

{valid response to somewhat inflammatory comment, you do seem a bit sleepy}.
738 exelwood  Wed, Nov 25, 2009 9:04:55am

At what point do you believe scientific output became political? The politicization of education took off in the 70s but I think science held out for another ten to fifteen years due to it's nature. Then, attrition and the increasing influence of politically educated "scientists" gave us the charlatans we have to deal with today.

I would say by the beginning of the 90s we were beginning to see scientific output based on political requirements...when was it GW started to take off?

739 Sabba Hillel  Wed, Nov 25, 2009 9:38:45am

Eric Raymond actually found teh code used to generate the data being used to support "global warming". Unless the data used to support the Copehagen Diagnosis is reissued with the full (correct) analysis, I would say that this is a death blow to the political claims. This is what they meant by "fixing" the data.

From the CRU code file osborn-tree6/briffa_sep98_d.pro , used to prepare a graph purported to be of Northern Hemisphere temperatures and reconstructions.

;
; Apply a VERY ARTIFICAL correction for decline!!
;
yrloc=[1400,findgen(19)*5.+1904]
valadj=[0.,0.,0.,0.,0.,-0.1,-0.25,-0.3,0.,- 0.1,0.3,0.8,1.2,1.7,2.5,2.6,2.6,$
2.6,2.6,2.6]*0.75 ; fudge factor
if n_elements(yrloc) ne n_elements(valadj) then message,’Oooops!’
;
yearlyadj=interpol(valadj,yrloc,timey)

This, people, is blatant data-cooking, with no pretense otherwise. It flattens a period of warm temperatures in the 1940s — see those negative coefficients? Then, later on, it applies a positive multiplier so you get a nice dramatic hockey stick at the end of the century.

All you apologists weakly protesting that this is research business as usual and there are plausible explanations for everything in the emails? Sackcloth and ashes time for you. This isn’t just a smoking gun, it’s a siege cannon with the barrel still hot.

740 Claire  Wed, Nov 25, 2009 9:44:23am

re: #738 exelwood

They're not all charlatans! But I think starving the research beast for so many years (no, not just during GWB's term at all) created a bunch of radicals. And I'm completely serious about that. If we as a nation spent a proper amount of $ on basic research (way more than we do now) we'd be much farther ahead as a civilization than we are now- it's so obvious and seems like such a waste. It creates cynicism.

741 Claire  Wed, Nov 25, 2009 9:53:01am

re: #739 Sabba Hillel

Where is the graph of this data and where was it published?

742 Charles Johnson  Wed, Nov 25, 2009 10:21:32am

re: #739 Sabba Hillel

Eric Raymond actually found teh code used to generate the data being used to support "global warming". Unless the data used to support the Copehagen Diagnosis is reissued with the full (correct) analysis, I would say that this is a death blow to the political claims. This is what they meant by "fixing" the data.

Oh please. That's completely ridiculous. You have no idea what that source code comment means, or what the table of coefficients means without context, and there is absolutely NO context in that tiny bit of code that's obviously from a much larger program.

That's nothing but a pure out of context smear job.

743 greengolem64  Wed, Nov 25, 2009 11:35:06am

re: #721 zephirus

If there is "blue muck" along the No/So Carolina, Florida, Lousiana and Texas coasts, yes.

"What if ALL the Ice Melts???"
[Link: www.johnstonsarchive.net...]

744 saik0max0r  Wed, Nov 25, 2009 11:52:46am

Phil Jones Juxtaposed:

Phil Jones, Dec 3, 2008:

About 2 months ago I deleted loads of emails, so have very little – if anything at all.

Phil Jones, Nov 24, 2009 Guardian

We’ve not deleted any emails or data here at CRU.

If these Turkey's can't even be honest about their email, I very much doubt they are honest about anything else they do.

Happy Thanksgiving Everyone!

745 saik0max0r  Wed, Nov 25, 2009 12:04:24pm

re: #738 exelwood

At what point do you believe scientific output became political?

Scientific 'output' is always political until it gets to the applied sciences or engineering phase. It will always be that way given the current (and very medieval) academic and research system works.

A colleague who works at University of Chicago Illinois has a first hand account of some of the more base stupidity that occurs in this "research" environment.

[Link: cr.yp.to...]

In addition to that, while I disagree with many of Michael Crichton's conclusions about GW, his critique of the way grant money's are distributed to favorite pet causes was spot on.

746 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 25, 2009 1:03:19pm
747 Charles Johnson  Wed, Nov 25, 2009 1:21:09pm

It's really not cool to go through and post the same comment in several threads.

748 happy_days  Wed, Nov 25, 2009 4:16:30pm

#742 That's nothing but a pure out of context smear job.

Perhaps they need to answer a few of the specific allegations to make the controversy go away? Motherhood press statements about illegally hacking, ‘taken out of context’, ‘comment written in haste’ really are not addressing valid concerns about their conduct. This may not be such a big deal if their research didn't’t have such a massive economic impact.

A reasonable conclusion to draw is that a bunch of scientists spent years following a scientific approach of collecting data, analysing it and developing a theory about AGW. As the theory grew legs, subsequent data appears to have been manipulated to ensure it fitted the established theory… and those with years of vested interest in ‘the theory’ sort to protect ‘the theory’… and lo, they becameth power players in global politics and like that position and sort to protect that position and their millions in grants.. and thus scientific method was corrupted.

Meanwhile, the Team say nothing and lets others run defense for them.

749 [deleted]  Wed, Nov 25, 2009 5:03:05pm
750 pyrodoctor  Thu, Nov 26, 2009 6:25:44am

re: #617 Charles

This has absolutely nothing to do with the CRU emails. And I suspect you'd feel exactly the same even if the CRU emails hadn't been stolen.

Having made an attempt to read the peer reviewed literature from the climate change scientists, and coming to realize that I don't have a deep enough understanding of the underlying theories and interpretations of the data in spite of having a PhD, I have come to the conclusion that most of the people who are proponents of anthropogenic global warming don't have a clue about what they are talking about.

What I do know is that if the proponents of anthropogenic global warming have to cherry pick their data, rely on getting the emotions of the commonfolk all riled up, intimidate legitimate scientific debate about the topic, blacklist peer reviewed journals who publish contrary manuscripts, and otherwise behave as if they are the high priests of a religion defending against infidels, then I'm extremely skeptical about taking their side of the debate and you all should be too.

If the science were as clear cut as the "non-informed who think they are informed" say it is, then they wouldn't have to use deception.

I'm not denying it, but I am certainly skeptical.


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Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT
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Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ...
Cheechako
3 weeks ago
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