PAC Coordinator Bails on Huckabee

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Theocrat Mike Huckabee’s PAC coordinator in Arkansas has quit, over Huckabee’s decision to grant clemency to suspected cop killer Maurice Clemmons.

(CNN) – The Arkansas coordinator for Mike Huckabee’s political action committee resigned Tuesday, citing the former Arkansas governor’s decision nine years ago to grant clemency to Maurice Clemmons, the man suspected of murdering four police officers in Washington state.

Jason Tolbert, who runs a conservative blog, served as Arkansas state coordinator for HuckPAC in a volunteer capacity.

“My departure was with a heavy heart but was done after serious prayer and consideration,” Tolbert wrote on his Web site. “Some have asked about the timing. As most could imagine, the recent news of the last two days along with the response did play a role in this decision but was not the sole factor.”

UPDATE at 12/2/09 6:12:39 pm:

The New York Times has letters exchanged between prosecutor Robert Herzfeld and Mike Huckabee about his clemency policies, and you are not going to believe Huckabee’s incredibly arrogant response (sent via his deputy legal counsel and adviser on criminal justice Cory Cox): Parole and Clemency for Maurice Clemmons - The New York Times.

This is Cox’s reply to Herzfeld’s plea for them to reconsider their policies:

Dear Robert,

The governor read you [sic] letter and laughed out loud.

He wanted me to respond to you. I wish you success as you cut down on your caffeine consumption.

Un. Freaking. Believable.

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604 comments
1 Cineaste  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:49:27pm

Huckabee passed the buck-a-bee. Looks like Jason Tolbert decided not to let that fly.

2 Cineaste  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:50:02pm

That being said - why does it have to be after prayer?

3 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:50:25pm

This guys resignation would have more credibility if he had not waited until the scandal broke. He must have been aware of the decisions, and this was not the first troublesome clemency. Anyway, the PAC is going to die. So he managed to swim away before the ship sunk.

4 darthstar  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:52:15pm

Huckabee hears his Horton. How Seussian.

5 brookly red  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:52:22pm

In 6 months who will care?

6 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:52:22pm
citing the former Arkansas governor’s decision nine years ago

Horsefeathers. He's bailed because it blew up in Huckabee's face.

7 political lunatic  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:52:42pm

When you're a crazy fundie who somehow finds a way to lose the support of fundies just as crazy as you by invoking the name of God, it might be time to rethink things before you run for President.

8 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:52:57pm

re: #2 Cineaste

That being said - why does it have to be after prayer?

Because Huckabee's whole campaign is about the religious far right.

9 darthstar  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:53:17pm

re: #2 Cineaste

That being said - why does it have to be after prayer?

When you stab someone in the back, it always looks better if you do it in Jesus' name.

10 Crimsonfisted  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:53:31pm

Anyone think Fox will cut Huck loose now?

11 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:53:39pm

re: #4 darthstar

Huckabee hears his Horton. How Seussian.

Who?

12 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:54:05pm

re: #9 darthstar

That's more than a bit harsh.

13 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:55:11pm

re: #5 brookly red

In 6 months who will care?

The families of Griswold, Owens, Renninger and Richards?

14 brookly red  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:55:29pm

re: #10 Crimsonfisted

Anyone think Fox will cut Huck loose now?

no, circle the wagons...

15 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:56:03pm

re: #10 Crimsonfisted

The same guys that are sticking with Beck?! Huckabee my get a raise.

16 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:56:05pm

re: #9 darthstar

When you stab someone in the back, it always looks better if you do it in Jesus' name.

I'd tell you to piss up a rope but, I'll cut you slack.

17 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:56:38pm

Gonna' step back for a bit.

18 albusteve  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:57:05pm

re: #2 Cineaste

That being said - why does it have to be after prayer?

why not?...it's a personal thing

19 darthstar  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:57:13pm

re: #16 MandyManners

I'd tell you to piss up a rope but, I'll cut you slack.

My apologies to the Christians in the room...but the hypocrisy amongst those in power really gets under my skin. Bad choice of words I suppose.

20 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:58:00pm

re: #19 darthstar

Readily accepted. And welcome BTW.

21 brookly red  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 4:58:06pm

re: #19 darthstar

My apologies to the Christians in the room...but the hypocrisy amongst those in power really gets under my skin. Bad choice of words I suppose.

ya think?

22 Crimsonfisted  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:00:30pm

re: #14 brookly red

no, circle the wagons...

re: #15 Rightwingconspirator

The same guys that are sticking with Beck?! Huckabee my get a raise.

Ah good points. Perhaps I was waxing hopeful. I never was a fan of Huck. He is the only R my dominant D family liked. I figured something was not right if they liked him!

23 SteveMcG  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:01:12pm

I don't necessarily mean to criticise the man's religion, but how can prayer help with such a decision? If you are trying to analyse a situation, doesn't that distract you from praying? Or, if you are praying instead of concentrating on the issue, The Lord works in mysterious ways, and He gave us free will for a reason. I don't think the Lord can tell you anything more after an evening of prayer than He has alredy told you your entire life. Has prayer ever changed your mind and caused you to choose a course that you hadn't already chosen?

24 Pacificlady  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:01:38pm

Huckabee should have taken responsibility immediately for his part in this tragedy, as well as all the other people who allowed this piece of sh*t to walk free.

25 political lunatic  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:03:49pm

re: #23 SteveMcG

Prayer in various ways gives lots of people in need of moral support guidance in hard times. You don't have to be religious to understand that.

26 reine.de.tout  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:03:57pm
“My departure was with a heavy heart but was done after serious prayer and consideration,” Tolbert wrote on his Web site. “Some have asked about the timing. As most could imagine, the recent news of the last two days along with the response did play a role in this decision but was not the sole factor.”

Along with the response?
Wow.
Is he saying Huckabee was not quite truthful when his response passed the buck to, gee, everyone but himself?

27 albusteve  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:04:11pm

re: #23 SteveMcG

I don't necessarily mean to criticise the man's religion, but how can prayer help with such a decision? If you are trying to analyse a situation, doesn't that distract you from praying? Or, if you are praying instead of concentrating on the issue, The Lord works in mysterious ways, and He gave us free will for a reason. I don't think the Lord can tell you anything more after an evening of prayer than He has alredy told you your entire life. Has prayer ever changed your mind and caused you to choose a course that you hadn't already chosen?

what a worthless post, smacks of conceit...you can answer your own questions easy enough

28 Gelly  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:04:12pm

Considering how quickly he cut ties over something done nine years ago, looks like this guy's got political aspirations of his own, because there's no other reason to do so - after all this wasn't Huckabee's fault in the slightest! Those political aspirations, of course, are where the prayer comes in; whether he's going to start running in elections himself or just start shopping around for a new boss with better chances of winning, he can boost his resume a whole lot by reminding everyone how religious he is every time he gets a quote in the news.

29 reine.de.tout  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:04:48pm

re: #25 political lunatic

Prayer in various ways gives lots of people in need of moral support guidance in hard times. You don't have to be religious to understand that.

Or simply, prayer for strength to do the difficult, but right thing.
I know I've made that prayer numerous times in my life.

30 SpaceJesus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:06:33pm

I like how it's huckabeesque to be tolerant and lenient towards violent criminals, but not so much towards gays or women who want control of their own bodies.

31 Cineaste  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:07:01pm

re: #8 Charles

Because Huckabee's whole campaign is about the religious far right.

True, true. I just hate that one's religion needs be part of the public decision making. If I pray for guidance, that's my business. It's like people desperately need approval for their actions so they talk about how they are founded in some "holy" inspiration.

32 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:07:15pm

re: #23 SteveMcG

Prayer is a part of a personal process. It serves the religious like meditation can help the secular, helps the mind clear of emotions. The power of prayer, like meditation is not magical it is spiritual in the sense of our inner souls/spirit. Prayer helps align our conscious will with our bodies, like when terrible peril is right there in your face. Fear diminishes through prayer allowing actions that save lives.

Meaningless (at best) or worse to the atheist, prayer serves most people well. Like any human act it can be abused, overdone, criticized and obsessed over. But, prayer is a very human mind so no surprises there.

33 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:07:20pm

re: #2 Cineaste

That being said - why does it have to be after prayer?

It's a cultural thing. I believe.

34 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:07:33pm

Wasn't he 17 when convicted to a 95yr sentence? I might be missing a crucial detail, but isn't Huckabee only guilty of doing what the SCOTUS is likely to codify into law (i.e. prevent most or all minors from being sentenced for life)?

35 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:08:04pm

re: #31 Cineaste

well said

36 Cineaste  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:08:53pm

re: #18 albusteve

why not?...it's a personal thing

That's exactly right. It's a personal thing.

It's probably because I'm part of a non-proselytizing religion so I don't understand the constant public proclamations of faith. It just seems so insecure to me.

37 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:09:00pm

re: #26 reine.de.tout

Along with the response?
Wow.
Is he saying Huckabee was not quite truthful when his response passed the buck to, gee, everyone but himself?

He basically called Huckabee a weasel.

38 SteveMcG  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:09:10pm

re: #25 political lunatic

Moral support and guidance? support, sure, I think you you reinforce a decision already made. Guidance, however, I don't buy. We fallible humans are as easily likely to misunderstand the devine "go" as a devine "no go". It's not as if we have always understood God perfectly. It's not a sin or don't sin decision.

39 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:10:20pm

Sorry Charles. Had to down Ding you on this. I posted it earlier today. Nobody seemed to think it was important. If I am wrong, please let us know

40 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:10:21pm

re: #22 Crimsonfisted

Ah good points. Perhaps I was waxing hopeful. I never was a fan of Huck. He is the only R my dominant D family liked. I figured something was not right if they liked him!

I'd say he's an odd Republican for Democrats to like, but maybe not. He's very personally likable, and he's mixed extreme socon with moderate libcon ideas. He's a theocratic disaster coming down the pike, now thank God derailed, but personally, I have always enjoyed listening to him talk. Even when I disagree with every word, including the thes and the ands.

41 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:10:34pm

OK, just looked over at the Shrieking Harpy's site. She's trying to attach blame Obama for the cop shooting.

Don't know how to create a cached link. But the title was this:

Cop Killer Celebrated as "Muslim Martyr" by Obama-Connected Nation of islam offshoot

42 brookly red  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:11:29pm

I question the concept of parole.

43 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:11:43pm

re: #41 Gus 802

OMG. Good catch. That woman drink much?

44 baier  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:11:45pm

re: #37 Charles

He basically called Huckabee a weasel.

As a friend to vermin everywhere I take exception to that remark!

45 SteveMcG  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:12:05pm

re: #42 brookly red

Gotta make room for new ones somehow.

46 albusteve  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:12:27pm

re: #38 SteveMcG

Moral support and guidance? support, sure, I think you you reinforce a decision already made. Guidance, however, I don't buy. We fallible humans are as easily likely to misunderstand the devine "go" as a devine "no go". It's not as if we have always understood God perfectly. It's not a sin or don't sin decision.

we, we?...speak for yourself, and maybe less judgmental

47 reine.de.tout  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:12:36pm

re: #41 Gus 802

OK, just looked over at the Shrieking Harpy's site. She's trying to attach blame Obama for the cop shooting.

Don't know how to create a cached link. But the title was this:

Holy cow!
She is truly a lunatic.
Huckabee lets the guy go against the advice of, it seems, everybody involved, and somehow she connects the guy's actions to the President?

48 Major Tom  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:12:43pm

I have no love for Huckabee, his melding of politics and prayer. But I have to admit some sympathy for the devil. I mean, maybe I missed something, but this guy only became a murderer nine years after he had anything to do with Huckabee. I feel like he had a second chance. He failed. But, do we not believe in free will? Was it not correct to assume that someone could reform, if that is what the facts at hand state? I read somewhere today that he said something along the lines of, he felt like it was the right thing to do, at the time. How could anyone predict that nine years, after the fact, this guy would freak out and commit murder? I know, as sure as gravity, that this will forever haunt him. I'm certain of it. But it's unjust... Great to become a member btw.

49 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:12:52pm

re: #43 Rightwingconspirator

OMG. Good catch. That woman drink much?

Hat tip goes to The Sanity Inspector.

50 Cineaste  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:13:01pm

re: #41 Gus 802

OK, just looked over at the Shrieking Harpy's site. She's trying to attach blame Obama for the cop shooting.

Don't know how to create a cached link. But the title was this:

Does Pamela have to stretch for a while before those type of logical gymnastics?

51 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:13:33pm

re: #23 SteveMcG

I don't necessarily mean to criticise the man's religion, but how can prayer help with such a decision? If you are trying to analyse a situation, doesn't that distract you from praying? Or, if you are praying instead of concentrating on the issue, The Lord works in mysterious ways, and He gave us free will for a reason. I don't think the Lord can tell you anything more after an evening of prayer than He has alredy told you your entire life. Has prayer ever changed your mind and caused you to choose a course that you hadn't already chosen?

You can understand the process on a number of levels, but I think the key one here is that this is just how people like Tolbert talk. You won't convince him, and he won't convince you, the key thing is that he decided to leave his job.

52 John Neverbend  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:13:34pm

re: #2 Cineaste

That being said - why does it have to be after prayer?


Yes, my thoughts exactly.

It reminds me of a story about a young man from Liverpool who was torn between marrying two women, Mary and Theresa. He didn't know what to do, and he consulted his priest. The priest told him to go to church and pray. The young man did so, and promptly thereafter went to the priest with his decision of which girl to marry. The priest asked him how he came to the decision, and the young man said (I'm attempting to write with a Scouse accent), "I wuz sittin' dere in de Chirch and soodenly, God told me what to do. 'E 'ad it written on de wall in big letters. It said 'ave Mary."

53 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:13:35pm

re: #50 Cineaste

Does Pamela have to stretch for a while before those type of logical gymnastics?

She may be mentally double jointed.

Or something.

54 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:13:55pm

re: #53 Gus 802

She smoked TWO?

55 Crimsonfisted  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:14:03pm

re: #40 SanFranciscoZionist

They said he would be the only R that they would vote for, go figure. I really don't know why.

56 brookly red  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:14:22pm

re: #41 Gus 802

OK, just looked over at the Shrieking Harpy's site. She's trying to attach blame Obama for the cop shooting.

Don't know how to create a cached link. But the title was this:

to be fair it is celebration after the fact, not blame. still f'ed up but not blame.

57 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:14:47pm

re: #54 Rightwingconspirator

She smoked TWO?

Wake and bake and blog.

/

58 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:15:35pm

re: #56 brookly red

to be fair it is celebration after the fact, not blame. still f'ed up but not blame.

Not when she says this:

Many who voted for Barack Obama believed his election would finally put an end to this kind of racist hatred. Indeed, he promised to work toward that end. If anything however, his election seems to have emboldened it.

59 all4one  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:15:45pm

The unfortunate thing is that governors, who with their clemency powers play a real (and vital) role in the criminal justice system, are more and more going to simply turn down every reasonable request for clemency that comes up. The only way to be sure that one of these doesn't come back to haunt you politically is to never let anyone out early. Something like 9% of Huckabee's early releases ended up back in prison. I don't know what the optimal number should be, but doesn't the fact that 9 out of 10 parolees went back to their families to lead productive lives factor in to the record?

60 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:16:03pm

re: #36 Cineaste

That's exactly right. It's a personal thing.

It's probably because I'm part of a non-proselytizing religion so I don't understand the constant public proclamations of faith. It just seems so insecure to me.

It strikes very tinny on my ear for a variety of reasons. But this is one recurrent situation where my extensive training in multicultural diversity comes in handy...

61 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:16:33pm

re: #37 Charles

He basically called Huckabee a weasel.

Yeah, well Huckabee basically called Mitt Romney a Satanist, so it all comes out in the wash...

62 brookly red  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:17:17pm

re: #58 Gus 802

OK that is over the top.

63 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:17:53pm

re: #47 reine.de.tout

Holy cow!
She is truly a lunatic.
Huckabee lets the guy go against the advice of, it seems, everybody involved, and somehow she connects the guy's actions to the President?

Sure.

64 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:17:54pm

re: #48 Major Tom

Hi and welcome!
You make a good point, but I would add this- Pretend you are President or Governor. Someone asks for clemency. If you understand the decision is as potentially dangerous as helpful, you will be very, very careful. If the consequences are negligible, just sign away those papers and enjoy the likely campaign contributions from their friends and families. Caveat-I have no idea if money played a part in Hucks error here. I'm speaking generally.

65 all4one  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:17:55pm

re: #47 reine.de.tout

Well, the world has definitely changed if the Arkansas justice system can fail so miserably and Bill Clinton is not even mentioned as the root of the problem...

66 SteveMcG  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:18:36pm

re: #46 albusteve

I can be as judgemental as I want. There's no judgemental shortage. Every single opinion is ultimately a judgement. When there is more than one right answer, ultimately we must err in choosing the one that turns out to be the least "right". If you don't believe that we have free will, than it doesn't matter what we do, everything is God's fault. God gave us the faculties to contemplate our course. He has given us his Word. If you really think after all that He is going to whisper subconsciously into your ear, "quit" or "stay", I would have to assume you are still in fourth grade.

67 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:19:08pm

re: #55 Crimsonfisted

They said he would be the only R that they would vote for, go figure. I really don't know why.

OK, that is pretty weird.

68 Cineaste  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:19:33pm

OT: This is one of the best political speeches I have heard in a long while. An unknown NY State Senator (Diane Savino) defends gay marriage today. Listen all the way through if you can, it's just fantastic. This woman has her head screwed on straight.

Youtube Video
69 Ojoe  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:19:42pm

No theocrats, & no theocracies.

I say this as a somewhat religious person, too.

Toodle - ooo, Huckey.

"Damage Joy."

70 reine.de.tout  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:20:54pm

re: #65 all4one

Well, the world has definitely changed if the Arkansas justice system can fail so miserably and Bill Clinton is not even mentioned as the root of the problem...

My understanding is that Huckabee failed, not the Arkansas justice system. Huckabee was given information about this guy and warnings not to let him go, as I understand the situation. I have no clue whatsoever what this has to do with Bill Clinton. Actually, relatives in Arkansas have said that he was an OK Governor.

71 HappyBenghazi  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:21:05pm

I think as a moderate liberal and someone who usually votes Democratic I can tell you what many of us liked about Huckabee was that he seemed like a nice enough guy. Now, many of us myself included would never vote for him because of his social views but I for one liked that he criticized the Club For Growth and that he could talk about the Stones and stuff. Bear in mind it wouldn't be enough to vote for him but it gave him a likability that I thought the other Republican candidates lacked. Now as for those who I actually considered voting for, he wasn't one of them. McCain and Giuliani were because they weren't dogmatic on social issues which are usually the kind of Republicans I feel comfortable voting for. I am sure some of the Republican voters here have in the past had a Democratic primary candidate that they liked on a personal level but couldn't find themselves voting for.

72 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:21:25pm

re: #58 Gus 802

I've seen this in different places. It seems to go something like this: "Obama promised if we elected a black man, there would be no more racial strife in America. But there is still racial strife in America, and some black people still do bad things, even though we let a black man be President. Clearly, this is all Obama's fault, because he lied to us!"

That this Gordian knot of canard is voiced by people who didn't vote for Obama makes it even stranger, if that's possible.

73 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:21:28pm

re: #39 Bubblehead II

And Charles isn't the only one by any means. This challenge is to EVERONE that supports (S)huchlebee,

74 Timmeh  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:21:32pm

Found in Google News

While it is only fair to assert that the Swiss government and most newspaper editors had urged voters to defeat the ban, it remains the case that the vote should not have been held in the first place. The very concept of a referendum in which the vast majority are asked to vote on a topic specific to the culture or religion of a minority group is in itself extremely problematic.

Imagine the furor that would certainly ensue should a country with an overwhelmingly Muslim population be asked to vote on whether its small Christian community should be allowed to build their churches according to a particular design or method, or whether they would rather do without the church bells sounding from time to time.

Limits of democracy?

What next, one wonders, and how far does this appetite for 'democracy' go? Is it a matter of time before there is a referendum on whether or not Muslims should be allowed to practise their faith, or even be allowed to exist at all?

Imagine the furor, indeed.
Yes, in Muslim countries minority religious rights are clearly respected. Obviously democracy is the problem here.
A church in Qatar

Doha, Qatar — The country's first church, Our Lady of the Rosary, opens to the public on Saturday, March 15.

As per government request, the outside of building bears no crosses, steeple or church bells.

Good thing that minority religious rights aren't put up to a vote in Qatar, where Al Jazeera is based.

75 Cineaste  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:21:55pm

re: #65 all4one

Well, the world has definitely changed if the Arkansas justice system can fail so miserably and Bill Clinton is not even mentioned as the root of the problem...

The Arkansas justice system didn't fail. He was tried, convicted and sentenced. The Governor then granted him clemency unilaterally. The parole board let him out but in today's prisons when people are up for parole and haven't committed a crime while in prison, they often get it - purely in the interest of freeing up beds. How does this land at Bill Clinton's feet?

76 Ojoe  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:22:23pm

re: #59 all4one
I would not ask your question of the survivors of the four murdered policemen.

77 albusteve  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:22:44pm

re: #66 SteveMcG

I can be as judgemental as I want. There's no judgemental shortage. Every single opinion is ultimately a judgement. When there is more than one right answer, ultimately we must err in choosing the one that turns out to be the least "right". If you don't believe that we have free will, than it doesn't matter what we do, everything is God's fault. God gave us the faculties to contemplate our course. He has given us his Word. If you really think after all that He is going to whisper subconsciously into your ear, "quit" or "stay", I would have to assume you are still in fourth grade.

I'm an athiest...talk to someone else, but you don't have to snark on people that pray, for any reason...you project to some extent...there is no reason to question others personal motives...mind your own business

78 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:22:54pm

re: #48 Major Tom

How could anyone predict that nine years, after the fact, this guy would freak out and commit murder?

Because if you read the stories about Clemmons, it could not possibly be more obvious that he was dangerously deranged and obsessed with religion in a very unhealthy way. And the prosecutors in the case strongly objected to granting clemency. Huckabee did it despite their objections, and despite the clear evidence that Clemmons was very dangerous.

79 Cineaste  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:23:49pm

re: #78 Charles

Because if you read the stories about Clemmons, it could not possibly be more obvious that he was dangerously deranged and obsessed with religion in a very unhealthy way. And the prosecutors in the case strongly objected to granting clemency. Huckabee did it despite their objections, and despite the clear evidence that Clemmons was very dangerous.

But Charles. He found Jesus!

//

80 HappyBenghazi  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:24:07pm

I believe I read somewhere that Clemmons had numerous behavioral problems while in prison. While Huckabee may have had a point that Clemmons was just a kid when his crimes happened he should have taken that in to account as well as listened to the prosecutors from the case who were familiar with Clemmons and his nature.

81 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:24:32pm

re: #72 SanFranciscoZionist

I've seen this in different places. It seems to go something like this: "Obama promised if we elected a black man, there would be no more racial strife in America. But there is still racial strife in America, and some black people still do bad things, even though we let a black man be President. Clearly, this is all Obama's fault, because he lied to us!"

That this Gordian knot of canard is voiced by people who didn't vote for Obama makes it even stranger, if that's possible.

That's just it. It's not coming from Obama voters. It's being used as a cheap cynical political weapon. I didn't vote for him but the only post racial aspect to this was that he won the election. He never made any promises to end the racial divide, racism, etc. And now they're using this to say "he emboldened" the black racists? I can't figure that one out just yet but I do know that it is a morally repugnant idea.

82 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:24:43pm

re: #74 Timmeh

Found in Google News


Good thing that minority religious rights aren't put up to a vote in Qatar, where Al Jazeera is based.

OK, that's just simple, dumbass hypocrisy on the writer's part. Moving on...

83 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:24:58pm

re: #66 SteveMcG

Nearly all of our Presidents have been religious to one degree or another. Most of them prayed. Many a President has sought the counsel of their Priest or Pastor. I submit that this is a good thing on balance.
May we please not throw out all that just because of the abuses of a loud few? A loud few unsuccessful candidates for President BTW.

84 Gelly  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:26:34pm

Why focus on Huckabee? Clemmons had been in jail awaiting trial on unrelated charges less than a week before he did the shootings, but they let him out on bail despite a mental health evaluation having found him to be dangerous and unstable; a quick look at Wikipedia says that the court psychologist didn't commit him to a mental health facility despite him claiming to have hallucinated "people drinking blood and people eating babies, and lawless on the streets, like people were cannibals", the judge set bail significantly lower than the prosecutors wanted, and a bail bond company posted the bail for him (despite two other bondsmen having rejected him for being a massive risk). This was a man who was behaving erratically, had been deemed unstable by hospital psychologists, and should not have been allowed back out on the streets until his trial.

But no, because a big-name politician pardoned him a decade ago (after he'd already spent more time inside prison than he had outside it!), the entire nation is going to ignore the significant problems that led to this, many of which are indicative of major issues in both the Washington and Arkansas justice systems, and just blame the unlucky celebrity instead.

85 Cineaste  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:28:15pm

re: #83 Rightwingconspirator

Nearly all of our Presidents have been religious to one degree or another. Most of them prayed. Many a President has sought the counsel of their Priest or Pastor. I submit that this is a good thing on balance.
May we please not throw out all that just because of the abuses of a loud few? A loud few unsuccessful candidates for President BTW.

I think where it gets twisted is like this. If I were president I would go to my Rabbi and say:

"Rab, I just ordered young men and women into battle to protect our country. War is ugly and some of those soldiers will be hurt and killed. War is ugly and innocent civilians will be killed. How do I resolve my soul to the fact that those lives are on my shoulders?"

I fear we have had leadership that says:

"Rab, I'm thinking about ordering younr men and women into battle. What would Jesus do?"

That's putting the proverbial cart before the horse.

86 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:28:50pm

re: #81 Gus 802

That's just it. It's not coming from Obama voters. It's being used as a cheap cynical political weapon. I didn't vote for him but the only post racial aspect to this was that he won the election. He never made any promises to end the racial divide, racism, etc. And now they're using this to say "he emboldened" the black racists? I can't figure that one out just yet but I do know that it is a morally repugnant idea.

I think there is a strong hint of 'they're getting uppity because Obama's president'.

It is morally repugnant. It's also dumb as dirt.

87 Ojoe  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:28:55pm

None of this is new: from Tom Sawyer (from a review):

The adults' reaction to Injun Joe and his malevolence is a typical Twain commentary on society. The adults create petitions to free Joe who has already killed, so it was believed, five "citizens of the village, but what of that? If he had been Satan himself there would have been plenty of weaklings ready to scribble their names to a pardon petition, and drip a tear on it from their permanently impaired and leaky waterworks."

Link

88 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:29:38pm

re: #86 SanFranciscoZionist

I think there is a strong hint of 'they're getting uppity because Obama's president'.

It is morally repugnant. It's also dumb as dirt.

Dumb as dirt indeed. That's why I said I haven't figured it out just yet. :)

89 Cineaste  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:29:41pm

re: #84 Gelly

Who's ignoring? It's just particularly interesting to look at someone who likes to preach on TV about how he makes decisions and his faith and the morality of America and then we find out he set a man free because God told him to who went on to murder four police officers in cold blood.

90 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:30:36pm

re: #85 Cineaste

Okay, I gotta run for a subway. But you threw me off there-Asking a Rabbi what Jesus would do? Uhhh... He might ask why you would consult a carpenters son about something like that.

I'll jump back in the thread when I get home See ya then?

91 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:32:28pm

re: #17 MandyManners

Gonna' step back for a bit.

For when you get back.

92 Cineaste  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:32:56pm

re: #90 Rightwingconspirator

Yep - second one should have read "father" I suppose. That didn't make much sense but hopefully the greater point came through.

PIMF!

93 JohninLondon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:35:35pm

From this side of the pond, Huckabee always seemed a genial kind of guy - but a lightweight with a decidedly nutty streak.

But maybe the view from here is coloured by the fact that the UK is largely non-religious. Mostly atheist or sceptical. Denier, even.

94 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:35:53pm

re: #90 Rightwingconspirator

Okay, I gotta run for a subway. But you threw me off there-Asking a Rabbi what Jesus would do? Uhhh... He might ask why you would consult a carpenters son about something like that.

I'll jump back in the thread when I get home See ya then?

Well, there's a joke I haven't told in a couple of months--goes like this:

Max runs into Sam on the street. "How are you doin'?" he asks.

"Not good," Sam says. "I sent my kid to Israel. I wanted him to be a better Jew, learn about the religion. He comes back, and now he's a Christian."

"Funny you should say that," Max says. "Same thing happened to me. I sent my kid to Israel to learn to be a good Jew, and he came back to me a Christian. You know, we should talk to the rabbi."

They go to the rabbi. "Rabbi," they say. "We sent our sons to Israel that they should learn to be good Jews, and they came back to us Christians. What happened?"

"Funny you should say that," says the rabbi. "The same thing happened to me. I sent my son to Israel for a year to learn about Judaism, and now he's a Christian. This is very strange. We should pray."

They go into the shul together. "Lord our God, and God of our ancestors," says the rabbi. "We sent our sons, our beloved sons, to Israel, hoping they would learn the ways of our people, and grow in faith. Instead, they've returned to us as Christians. Lord, why did this happen?"

And the voice of God says, "Funny you should say that..."

95 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:37:37pm

re: #91 wrenchwench

For when you get back.

Oh, golly. That's very sweet. Thank you.

96 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:37:45pm

re: #19 darthstar

My apologies to the Christians in the room...but the hypocrisy amongst those in power really gets under my skin. Bad choice of words I suppose.

It's harsh, but there is still truth to it. Here in the South, you always know when somebody is about to get a shiv in the kidney when the nice, genteel lady says "Well, Bless her heart, but..."

Same principle.

97 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:39:13pm

re: #96 celticdragon

It's harsh, but there is still truth to it. Here in the South, you always know when somebody is about to get a shiv in the kidney when the nice, genteel lady says "Well, Bless her heart, but..."

Same principle.

What does that have to do with Christ?

98 brookly red  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:41:18pm

re: #96 celticdragon

It's harsh, but there is still truth to it. Here in the South, you always know when somebody is about to get a shiv in the kidney when the nice, genteel lady says "Well, Bless her heart, but..."

Same principle.

keep digging...

99 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:42:25pm

re: #93 JohninLondon

CS Lewis is sad to hear you say that about the Brits.

However, on my side of the pond it sounds like you have Huckabee pegged just about right. Likeable, a little light in the soles, and kind of a cashew flavor...

100 KingKenrod  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:42:35pm

re: #78 Charles

Because if you read the stories about Clemmons, it could not possibly be more obvious that he was dangerously deranged and obsessed with religion in a very unhealthy way. And the prosecutors in the case strongly objected to granting clemency. Huckabee did it despite their objections, and despite the clear evidence that Clemmons was very dangerous.

Did you read Clemmons had a longer history of crazy religious behavior? All the reports about Clemmons's poor mental health I've read were recent; according to this article, he started acting irrational after his second release from prison in 2004:

Clemmons moved to Washington state after his release but, family members told police, he began acting erratically and appeared to have lost some of his mental abilities.

[Link: www.latimes.com...]

101 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:47:03pm

Sre: #97 MandyManners

What does that have to do with Christ?

Some, ah, less sincere Christians I have known will make repugnant or otherwise unfortunate decisions and claim they did after prayerful reflection. Christ lead them to it...see?

In reality, it has nothing at all to do with Christ, per se.

It is an unwillingness to take ownership of one's own choices. Similarly, some people here in the South will engage in (juicy) gossip but always with the transparently ridiculous prologue I mentioned. It is "stabbing someone in the back" while trying to maintain deniability.

I doubt that Christ finds it amusing.

102 Only The Lurker Knows  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:49:03pm

Time to call it a night.

((Mandy))
((Sharmuta))

103 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:49:22pm

re: #101 celticdragon

S


Some, ah, less sincere Christians I have known will make repugnant or otherwise unfortunate decisions and claim they did after prayerful reflection. Christ lead them to it...see?

In reality, it has nothing at all to do with Christ, per se.

It is an unwillingness to take ownership of one's own choices. Similarly, some people here in the South will engage in (juicy) gossip but always with the transparently ridiculous prologue I mentioned. It is "stabbing someone in the back" while trying to maintain deniability.

I doubt that Christ finds it amusing.

I've known atheists to be just as catty and gossipy--and some actually live in the North.

Humans can be assholes and use whatever excuse they can find.

104 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:49:55pm

re: #103 MandyManners

I've known atheists to be just as catty and gossipy--and some actually live in the North.

Humans can be assholes and use whatever excuse they can find.

Hi... someone talking about me?

105 researchok  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:50:17pm

They never learn.

All Huckabee had to do was say 'I screwed up'. Everything he had to say afterward would have elicited much sympathy.

106 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:50:24pm

re: #104 Walter L. Newton

Hi... someone talking about me?

Heh! :)

107 Racer X  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:51:19pm

Hopenhagen

We Can Save Ourselves From Ourselves™

108 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:52:25pm

re: #78 Charles

I'm more worked up about the 9th circuit...here's Wong v Belmontes...this is the THIRD time that the SCOTUS has reversed that group of nuts on this case. Nothing says 'you suck, your honor' like a unanimous reverse and remand without bothering to hear oral arguments.

[Link: www.supremecourtus.gov...]

At least Huck isn't caught saying "they can't catch them all" like that homer from the 9th circuit, when asked about his phenomenal (in a bad way) reversal rate. sheesh.

109 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:52:35pm

re: #103 MandyManners

I've known atheists to be just as catty and gossipy--and some actually live in the North.

Humans can be assholes and use whatever excuse they can find.

110 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:52:52pm

re: #104 Walter L. Newton

Hi... someone talking about me?

*smooch*

(How's the mouth doing?)

111 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:53:03pm

Where did my text go??

112 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:53:38pm

re: #109 celticdragon

Glad to see you agree.

113 Ojoe  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:53:41pm

re: #107 Racer X

Also referred to as "Carbonhagen"

114 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:53:58pm

re: #111 celticdragon

Where did my text go??

Ceiling kitteh eated it.

115 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:54:00pm

re: #111 celticdragon

i blame atheists!!!

116 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:54:22pm

re: #110 MandyManners

*smooch*

(How's the mouth doing?)

Ok now. Infection is subsiding, no pain, of course, still have those two new "spaces," bicuspids, one on each side, makes eating hard. I go back this coming Monday for first fitting of partials.

117 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:54:37pm

re: #109 celticdragon

re: #103 MandyManners

I've known atheists to be just as catty and gossipy--and some actually live in the North.

Humans can be assholes and use whatever excuse they can find.

That is why I mentioned that Christ has nothing to do with it. Some Christians use Him as an excuse. Other people use different mechanisms. I have been guiltly of it as well, unfortunately.

118 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:55:12pm

And now for something completely different:

Youtube Video
119 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:55:20pm

re: #114 MandyManners

Ceiling kitteh eated it.

LOL! I see that! Somebody feed him!

120 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:55:41pm

Now it's 2 degrees (f) outside here... I may roll up in the heated blanket in the bedroom and read a book...

121 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:56:01pm

re: #115 Aceofwhat?

i blame atheists!!!

I blame the Laramide Orogeny and frictional coupling.

122 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:56:17pm

re: #120 Walter L. Newton

Walter, have you read any Stanislaw Lem yet?

123 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:56:35pm

re: #115 Aceofwhat?

i blame atheists!!!

For what?

124 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:57:01pm

re: #123 Walter L. Newton

For what?

Fill in the blank.

125 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:57:39pm

re: #124 celticdragon

New Coke.

126 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:58:01pm
The Arkansas coordinator for Mike Huckabee’s political action committee resigned Tuesday, citing the former Arkansas governor’s decision nine years ago to grant clemency to Maurice Clemmons, the man suspected of murdering four police officers in Washington state.

This is a career ender. And I don't mind. Not one bit.

127 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:58:20pm

re: #125 Jeff In Ohio

New Coke.

The cancellation of Jericho.

128 brownbagj  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:58:29pm

The NY Times has the letters sent back and forth between hucksters DCL and the prosecutor regarding this clemency case.

The arrogance was overwhelming. I cannot believe what I read.

The prosecutor said...

The response from the DCL...

129 ghazidor  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:58:31pm

re: #124 celticdragon

Fill in the blank.

Everything.

We would have paradise here on earth without them around.

///

130 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:58:39pm

re: #103 MandyManners

I've known atheists to be just as catty and gossipy--and some actually live in the North.

Humans can be assholes and use whatever excuse they can find.

Was going to type out a long response but wanted to say that I agree -- I know I've said I was an atheist a million times now.

131 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:59:06pm

re: #124 celticdragon

Fill in the blank.

Not funny. I'm an atheist... what did we do now?

132 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:59:10pm

re: #130 Gus 802

Was going to type out a long response but wanted to say that I agree -- I know I've said I was an atheist a million times now.

I like your P-51!

133 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 5:59:48pm

re: #131 Walter L. Newton

Not funny. I'm an atheist... what did we do now?

You got Jericho cancelled, you nincompoop!

134 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:00:03pm

re: #132 celticdragon

I like your P-51!

Thanks. Would be nice to own one.

135 jaunte  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:00:11pm

re: #126 Sharmuta

I saw Huckabee making a statement about it that used the words "taking full responsibility" at the same time he was saying he didn't do anything wrong.

136 Racer X  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:00:43pm

re: #120 Walter L. Newton

Now it's 2 degrees (f) outside here... I may roll up in the heated blanket in the bedroom and read a book...

Call FEMA!

137 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:00:49pm

re: #116 Walter L. Newton

Ok now. Infection is subsiding, no pain, of course, still have those two new "spaces," bicuspids, one on each side, makes eating hard. I go back this coming Monday for first fitting of partials.

Kinda' reminds me of the time that I had bone grafts under two molars. The pain was exquisite for a few weeks. Even with good drugs.

138 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:01:28pm

re: #117 celticdragon

That is why I mentioned that Christ has nothing to do with it. Some Christians use Him as an excuse. Other people use different mechanisms. I have been guiltly of it as well, unfortunately.

Instant asshole. Just add ___ excuse.

139 darthstar  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:02:12pm

re: #20 Rightwingconspirator

Cheers.

140 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:02:43pm

re: #134 Gus 802

Thanks. Would be nice to own one.

Indeed. The roar of a well tuned 16 cylinder Rolls Royce engine beneath the cowling and the exhilaration as I walk the .50 cal tracers onto the target...


Better stop now!

141 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:02:52pm

re: #135 jaunte

I saw Huckabee making a statement about it that used the words "taking full responsibility" at the same time he was saying he didn't do anything wrong.

Is this some sort of new varietal of lying for Jesus?

142 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:02:57pm

For you folks trying to argue that Huckabee doesn't deserve the blame for this -- it's a little late for that, because Huckabee has already semi-accepted the responsibility, while still trying to deny there was anything wrong about his decision:

Huckabee said Tuesday he takes "full responsibility" for the clemency decision.

"I acted on the facts presented to me in 2000, the former GOP presidential hopeful said in a statement. "If I could have possibly known what Clemmons would do nine years later, I obviously would have made a different decision. But if the same file was presented to me today, I would have likely made the same decision."

143 all4one  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:03:08pm

re: #70 reine.de.tout

The parole board did indeed recommend his release to Huckabee. So the culpability is beyond just him. Of course, they made their recommendation based on what they knew at the time. Given what we know now, it looks like a mistake, but given what they knew then, perhaps it wasn't.

144 Timmeh  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:03:13pm

re: #128 brownbagj

The NY Times has the letters sent back and forth between hucksters DCL and the prosecutor regarding this clemency case.

The arrogance was overwhelming. I cannot believe what I read.

The prosecutor said...

The response from the DCL...

Everybody please read these, especially the response!

145 Gearhead  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:03:22pm

re: #135 jaunte

I saw Huckabee making a statement about it that used the words "taking full responsibility" at the same time he was saying he didn't do anything wrong.

That's de rigueur for politicians these days, like giving a proper handshake, smiling at someone you don't like, and kissing a baby who needs a diaper change.

146 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:03:28pm

re: #138 MandyManners

Instant asshole. Just add ___ excuse.

Pretty much. Meh.

147 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:03:57pm

re: #126 Sharmuta

This is a career ender. And I don't mind. Not one bit.

Did Huckabee rely exclusively on the word of others? Did he not take the time to look at Clemmons' extensive juvenile record? If not, he should have because he wanted to give Clemmons a break based on his youth.

148 Racer X  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:04:01pm

re: #128 brownbagj

The NY Times has the letters sent back and forth between hucksters DCL and the prosecutor regarding this clemency case.

The arrogance was overwhelming. I cannot believe what I read.

The prosecutor said...

The response from the DCL...

Oh shit.

Everlasting sting.

149 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:04:31pm

re: #123 Walter L. Newton

sorry, for making celticdragon's text disappear. late response.

150 Gelly  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:05:07pm

re: #80 HappyWarrior

Why would he listen to the prosecutor? That's not unbiased advice at all. Of course the prosecutor is going to want the guy to stay in prison, he's the one who got the guy convicted in the first place. The prosecutor's job isn't to render justice, it's to put people in prison and keep them there. On the other hand, at least one judge supported his clemency application and was probably responsible for it getting through the bureaucracy and reaching Huckabee's desk at all.

This celebrity factor really bothers me, though, because everyone's blaming Huckabee for the kid's first prison sentence, when the guy had been arrested at least THREE TIMES since then, and if the system had been working like it should, this never would have happened. He committed armed robbery less than a year after Huckabee commuted his sentence, and he should've been back in prison serving the rest of his forty-eight years (plus another decade for the robbery) right after that; however, the system somehow managed to bungle the case that not only was the parole violation dropped, but the parole board let him out of his ten-year robbery sentence after just three years. He then moved to Washington and was placed under the supervision of the Washington Dept of Corrections.

After that, he was fine till five years later (I'm guessing there's a reason behind this, probably involving health insurance and expensive antipsychotic meds), when he threw rocks at houses and got into a fistfight with the police officer that showed up, was arrested and charged, and released after he made bail. The very next day, he sexually abused underage relatives, then somehow managed to evade police for a month and a half before finally showing up in court on his own, getting arrested again. This time, the court commissioned a mental health exam from a nearby hospital and he was found to be dangerous, and given the nature and timing of his last offense it was pretty clear he shouldn't be making bail, yet he was still allowed to post bail again and get back out on the streets. The court psychologist is at fault too; despite numerous reports of his unstable mental state, his own recent behavior, and the report from the hospital psychologists, he deemed Clemmons to be mentally unimpaired and fit to stand trial - no doubt at the urging of the prosecutor, who smelled an easy conviction.

Out of the hundreds of people in the justice system who handled Clemmons at some point, Huckabee bears the least fault for this incident. Sure, Huckabee's response that this reflected badly on ALL the people in the Arkansas and Washington systems was a clear case of trying to weasel out of the inevitable political backlash...but it's also completely true! It's only because of the celebrity factor and partisanism that he had to "weasel out" of anything in the first place. He doesn't have anything to apologize for, after all; this was very much not his fault, and an apology would just mean he bent to political pressure and put his reelection chances before his personal values. If only there were prominent Democrats with that much integrity. I'm not a Huckabee supporter, but though he has many, many faults, this is not one of them.

To be honest, given that the only reasons to attack Huckabee over this are partisan politics or a personal hate for Huckabee, LGF's recent claims of going independent and discarding partisanship are looking a little weak right now.

151 all4one  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:05:08pm

re: #75 Cineaste

I was being sarcastic in suggesting Clinton's involvement. I was commenting on the irony of a problem in Arkansas being tied more to Obama than to Clinton.

152 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:05:13pm

re: #149 Aceofwhat?

sorry, for making celticdragon's text disappear. late response.

Ah...now I know who to give the atomic wedgie to...

153 jaunte  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:05:27pm

re: #141 Sharmuta

"Full Responsibility Lite" apparently doesn't include any cleanup of whatever mess has happened.

154 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:05:27pm

re: #140 celticdragon

Indeed. The roar of a well tuned 16 cylinder Rolls Royce engine beneath the cowling and the exhilaration as I walk the .50 cal tracers onto the target...

Better stop now!

I watched a video at Air Show Buzz the other night on the maintenance of The Horsemen's Mustangs. Just looking at the parts was exhilarating. It's amazing what polished aluminum and steel can do for the soul.

155 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:06:20pm

Huckabee's response to the prosecutors who begged him to reconsider:

Image: ZZ631796AA.jpg

Dear Robert,

The governor read you [sic] letter and laughed out loud.

He wanted me to respond to you. I wish you success as you cut down on your caffeine consumption.

Freaking UNbelievable.

156 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:06:31pm

re: #152 celticdragon

Ah...now I know who to give the atomic wedgie to...

Ah, man, i hate it when the waistband gets pulled that high.

157 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:07:15pm

re: #155 Charles

Huckabee's response to the prosecutors who begged him to reconsider:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Freaking UNbelievable.

He's through.

158 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:07:36pm

re: #142 Charles

"But if the same file was presented to me today, I would have likely made the same decision."

He doesn't learn.

159 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:08:03pm

re: #154 Gus 802

I watched a video at Air Show Buzz the other night on the maintenance of The Horsemen's Mustangs. Just looking at the parts was exhilarating. It's amazing what polished aluminum and steel can do for the soul.

I applied for a mechanic position with the Planes Of Fame folks in Chino. I didn't get it because I simply didn't have enough fabrication experience (making structural parts from stock sheet aluminum). They needed somebody with twenty years of making silk purses from sow's ears. I was heartbroken, but I knew they were right.

160 all4one  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:08:10pm

re: #76 Ojoe

I would hope that while they rue the day that this prisoner was released, that they would not go so far as to prefer that NO prisoners are ever released. If any prisoners are released, it is a statistical certainty that one or more is going to go bad. That, to me, is not a justification for ending clemency.

161 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:08:28pm

re: #156 Aceofwhat?

Ah, man, i hate it when the waistband gets pulled that high.

Suh-nap!

162 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:08:48pm

re: #155 Charles

Huckabee's response to the prosecutors who begged him to reconsider:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Freaking UNbelievable.

That's astounding levels of arrogance.

163 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:09:33pm

re: #157 Gus 802

Good example of why snark is an ineffective political tool.

164 borgcube  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:09:44pm

Maybe it's time for Tiger Woods to try the I found Jesus shtick before he loses about 500 mil.

165 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:09:45pm

re: #157 Gus 802

He's through.

So is Romney still Satan? the ramifications are starting to make me dizzy.

On the other hand, i always thought that Romney had too good of a head of hair to really be Satan.

166 Racer X  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:09:58pm

re: #150 Gelly

Yep. Others screwed up too, BIG time.

But you know who is going to take the fall? Huckabee. And good riddance.

167 Digital Display  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:10:26pm

re: #164 borgcube

Maybe it's time for Tiger Woods to try the I found Jesus shtick before he loses about 500 mil.

He has a 20 million dollar prenup

168 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:10:42pm

re: #166 Racer X

Yep. Others screwed up too, BIG time.

But you know who is going to take the fall? Huckabee. And good riddance.

Unfortunately, that means the theocons will flock to Palin.

169 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:10:45pm

bbl

170 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:10:46pm

re: #163 Sharmuta

Good example of why snark is an ineffective political tool.

Big time snark. That letter reads like something from a chat room.

I smell a law suit. Possibly.

171 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:11:10pm

re: #169 MandyManners

bbl

Okay. :)

172 brownbagj  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:11:10pm

re: #167 HoosierHoops

He has a 20 million dollar prenup

Infidelity...prenup no good especially if she gets the kids.

173 Racer X  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:11:41pm

re: #167 HoosierHoops

He has a 20 million dollar prenup

Somebody starts whacking me with a nine iron that $20 million payoff starts looking good. He can find another babe in about 17.3 seconds.

174 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:11:43pm

re: #167 HoosierHoops

He has a 20 million dollar prenup

Which leaves him with about 600mil left in the bank...give or take...

175 Racer X  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:12:03pm

re: #168 celticdragon

Unfortunately, that means the theocons will flock to Palin.

And?

176 borgcube  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:12:10pm

re: #167 HoosierHoops

He has a 20 million dollar prenup

Like that means anything. She could make him spend that in lawyer fees alone. When there's that much money on the table, all the agreements suddenly become minor inconveniences.

177 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:12:15pm

re: #172 brownbagj

Infidelity...prenup no good especially if she gets the kids.

I doubt it will get that far. She is set for life with him, and she knows it.

178 brownbagj  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:12:31pm

re: #166 Racer X

Yep. Others screwed up too, BIG time.

But you know who is going to take the fall? Huckabee. And good riddance.

If anyone cares to look at the hucksters record on clemency, he grants it at many multiples of any other governor.

I am afraid this is due to allowing his faith to creep into decisions for the state.

You may be forgiven by God, but your ass belongs to the state.

179 brookly red  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:12:43pm

re: #174 Aceofwhat?

Which leaves him with about 600mil left in the bank...give or take...

lawyers... don't forget the lawyers.

180 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:12:44pm

re: #150 Gelly

Did you know the state of Arkansas withdrew their warrant, so that Washington had to give him bail? Then he got out and shot 4 cops.

Something stinks in Arkansas.

181 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:12:52pm

re: #175 Racer X

And?

Well, I don't see that as a healthy thing for the body politic...

182 JohninLondon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:13:03pm

I have seen frequent references linking Huckabee and Palin as birds-of-a-feather, Christian Rightists who are nutty.

In defence of the Blessed Sarah - can anyone seriously imagine that she would have released the evil man ?

Or is she more grounded ?

And if she is a bit grounded - is she truly crazy ?

183 Digital Display  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:13:13pm

re: #172 brownbagj

Infidelity...prenup no good especially if she gets the kids.

Sorry.. It's predicated on a ten year agreement..not infidelity

184 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:13:26pm

re: #180 Sharmuta

Did you know the state of Arkansas withdrew their warrant, so that Washington had to give him bail? Then he got out and shot 4 cops.

Something stinks in Arkansas.

Cue Hamlet.

185 Racer X  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:14:07pm

re: #181 celticdragon

Well, I don't see that as a healthy thing for the body politic...

Let them flock to Palin. Pushing her in 2012 against Obama will be the wrong move.

186 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:14:32pm

Well, I just did a phone interview with the "Young Turks" radio show on Sirius XM and learned again why I'm neither a lefty nor a righty -- the far left is every bit as dogmatic and crazy as the far right. What a dick.

187 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:14:53pm

re: #182 JohninLondon

I have seen frequent references linking Huckabee and Palin as birds-of-a-feather, Christian Rightists who are nutty.

In defence of the Blessed Sarah - can anyone seriously imagine that she would have released the evil man ?

Or is she more grounded ?

And if she is a bit grounded - is she truly crazy ?

Naw. Far more sporting to set him loose on the Alaskan North Slope and shoot at him from a helicopter.

Then again...he sounds like he deserved it.

188 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:14:57pm

re: #182 JohninLondon

I have seen frequent references linking Huckabee and Palin as birds-of-a-feather, Christian Rightists who are nutty.

In defence of the Blessed Sarah - can anyone seriously imagine that she would have released the evil man ?

Or is she more grounded ?

And if she is a bit grounded - is she truly crazy ?

I can easily imagine her releasing him for some crazy reason or another, yes.

She quit in the middle of her term as governor. That's either cuckoo, or deeply cynical.

189 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:15:09pm

re: #179 brookly red

lawyers... don't forget the lawyers.

you're so right. there goes 300mil.

190 reine.de.tout  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:15:12pm

re: #143 all4one

The parole board did indeed recommend his release to Huckabee. So the culpability is beyond just him. Of course, they made their recommendation based on what they knew at the time. Given what we know now, it looks like a mistake, but given what they knew then, perhaps it wasn't.

Prosecutors of that case recommended otherwise, didn't they?

Parole board - in Arkansas - appointed by the Governor?

191 brookly red  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:15:40pm

re: #185 Racer X

Let them flock to Palin. Pushing her in 2012 against Obama will be the wrong move.

That is what people are not seeing, the opponent.

192 Racer X  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:15:43pm

re: #186 Charles

Well, I just did a phone interview with the "Young Turks" radio show on Sirius XM and learned again why I'm neither a lefty nor a righty -- the far left is every bit as dogmatic and crazy as the far right. What a dick.

You owe me a Coke.

*cleaning keyboard*

193 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:16:27pm

re: #186 Charles

Well, I just did a phone interview with the "Young Turks" radio show on Sirius XM and learned again why I'm neither a lefty nor a righty -- the far left is every bit as dogmatic and crazy as the far right. What a dick.

Indeed. I see some real unhinged stuff even on HuffPo. It gets worse at Sadly, NO and Smirking Chimp.

194 JohninLondon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:16:32pm

re: #188 Obdicut

I can easily imagine her releasing him for some crazy reason or another, yes.

She quit in the middle of her term as governor. That's either cuckoo, or deeply cynical.

You have nil ground whatsoever to support your suggestion that Palin would have released the man.

Except your febrile imagination.

195 reine.de.tout  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:16:39pm

re: #186 Charles

Well, I just did a phone interview with the "Young Turks" radio show on Sirius XM and learned again why I'm neither a lefty nor a righty -- the far left is every bit as dogmatic and crazy as the far right. What a dick.

For those of us without Sirius XM - will we get to hear it?

196 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:18:02pm

re: #186 Charles

yah, i'm learning that my problem is with far ___. Once you have the far, the mind seems to close.

197 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:18:46pm

re: #168 celticdragon

Unfortunately?

198 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:19:00pm

re: #186 Charles

Cenk Uygur?

199 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:19:44pm

re: #194 JohninLondon

You have nil ground whatsoever to support your suggestion that Palin would have released the man.

Except your febrile imagination.

You have nil ground to believe she wouldn't; she's unpredictable.

200 HappyBenghazi  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:19:57pm

re: #155 Charles

Huckabee's response to the prosecutors who begged him to reconsider:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Freaking UNbelievable.

Damn Charles knew that the guy was arrogant but didn't know he was that full of himself.

201 borgcube  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:20:16pm

re: #167 HoosierHoops

20 mil? Hmmm... Just in:

[Link: wcbstv.com...]

202 fert  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:20:46pm

re: #190 reine.de.tout

Yep, appt by governor. Four year terms on the parole board. So Huckabee also appointed the parole board that granted Clemmons' parole... so far as I can tell.

203 albusteve  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:21:02pm

re: #199 Obdicut

You have nil ground to believe she wouldn't; she's unpredictable.

justifying a hypothetical?...man, that's a reach

204 brookly red  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:21:13pm

re: #199 Obdicut

You have nil ground to believe she wouldn't; she's unpredictable.

hearsay, not admissible.

205 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:21:13pm

re: #195 reine.de.tout

It might be here:

Young Turk Interviews.

If you'd rather not have a link to them, Charles, apologies.

206 borgcube  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:21:28pm

re: #200 HappyWarrior

Damn Charles knew that the guy was arrogant but didn't know he was that full of himself.

The Huckster also looks like a fish on a bicycle playing bass guitar.

207 Digital Display  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:21:52pm

re: #201 borgcube

20 mil? Hmmm... Just in:

[Link: wcbstv.com...]

Stupid sports radio said 20 million...

208 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:22:27pm

re: #197 Jeff In Ohio

Unfortunately?

Unfortunately in that they will not come to their senses, but instead inflate the ego of a callow, dangerously vindictive and ignorant woman.

209 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:22:56pm

re: #203 albusteve

justifying a hypothetical?...man, that's a reach

You mean his justification that she wouldn't?

re: #204 brookly red

hearsay, not admissible.

Not admissible to what? I'm giving my opinion. It's not a court of law. In my opinion, Sarah Palin is a weird, weird creature who thinks she's a lot craftier than she actually is, and makes decisions based on criteria I can't begin to understand, using terrible logic. So, to me, she easily could have released that guy from jail, for some damn reason or another.

210 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:23:13pm

re: #201 borgcube

I'm going to leave them alone. It's private now that he's apologized.

211 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:24:12pm

re: #195 reine.de.tout

For those of us without Sirius XM - will we get to hear it?

I dunno. I thought this moron wanted to discuss my post about right wing derangement - instead we ended up arguing about the Iraq War, as he recited every standard left wing talking point.

Was that Cenk Uygur? I don't know, they didn't even tell me the guy's name. I'll just refer to him as Dick from now on.

212 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:24:20pm

It's up.

213 ED 209  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:24:51pm

re: #74 Timmeh

The sooner everyone shucks off the shackles of their respective religious superstitions the better.

214 brookly red  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:25:04pm

re: #209 Obdicut

Not admissible to what? I'm giving my opinion. It's not a court of law. In my opinion, Sarah Palin is a weird, weird creature who thinks she's a lot craftier than she actually is, and makes decisions based on criteria I can't begin to understand, using terrible logic. So, to me, she easily could have released that guy from jail, for some damn reason or another.

could have, or could have hung him too... you/I/we just don't know.

215 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:25:12pm

re: #211 Charles

I dunno. I thought this moron wanted to discuss my post about right wing derangement - instead we ended up arguing about the Iraq War, as he recited every standard left wing talking point.

Was that Cenk Uygur? I don't know, they didn't even tell me the guy's name. I'll just refer to him as Dick from now on.

That was my first impression. Only watched him a few times at Liveleak. Very few times.

216 Racer X  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:25:16pm

re: #201 borgcube

20 mil? Hmmm... Just in:

[Link: wcbstv.com...]

$300 mil?

*gulp*

*Hands wife a golf club*

217 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:25:35pm

re: #211 Charles

He's the host, so it probably was. I don't like him. He's one of those guys that even when he says something I agree with, I don't like the way he says it.

He likes to call up troops in Afghanistan and correct them on their lack of strategic vision, too.

Ex-lawyer.

218 ED 209  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:28:26pm

re: #83 Rightwingconspirator

Yes please, more advice from the delusional.

219 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:28:36pm

re: #217 Obdicut

He likes to call up troops in Afghanistan and correct them on their lack of strategic vision, too.

Now THAT is a dick thing to do.

220 Stanghazi  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:29:13pm

Regarding the Huckabee communications published in the NYT, holy crap, they are talking about peoples lives - both those in prison and the community, and they write a letter like THAT? NYT got a good scoop there, he cannot just sweep this under the rug.

221 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:29:20pm

re: #205 Obdicut

It might be here:

Young Turk Interviews.

If you'd rather not have a link to them, Charles, apologies.

Thanks, Here's the interview...

Youtube Video
222 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:29:42pm

re: #186 Charles

Thank you thank thank you for a quote I can give some of my leftie friends, the ones who had been openly gloating about your declaration about the right wing.

223 JohninLondon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:30:18pm

re: #209 Obdicut

Not admissible to what? I'm giving my opinion. It's not a court of law. In my opinion, Sarah Palin is a weird, weird creature who thinks she's a lot craftier than she actually is, and makes decisions based on criteria I can't begin to understand, using terrible logic. So, to me, she easily could have released that guy from jail, for some damn reason or another.

Your remarks here are the best example of Palin Derangement Syndrome I have seen. Deeply unpleasant, entirely without foundation.

It is obvious that Huckabee let his religious views dictate his public action in this case against any reason, any commonsense, any sense of the public good, the public safety.

Sure, Palin has strong religious views. But you cannot show any case where she let her religious views override strong public interest in her actions as Governor.

Like I say - pure PDS on your part.

224 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:30:32pm

re: #177 celticdragon

I doubt it will get that far. She is set for life with him, and she knows it.

And, he is set for life with her, and he knows it. Or, HE SHOULD KNOW IT.

225 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:31:34pm

re: #224 MandyManners

And, he is set for life with her, and he knows it. Or, HE SHOULD KNOW IT.

True, true...

226 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:32:46pm

Big full moon out tonight. Where's Thanos?

227 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:32:53pm

re: #214 brookly red

could have, or could have hung him too... you/I/we just don't know.

That was my point!


re: #223 JohninLondon

Your remarks here are the best example of Palin Derangement Syndrome I have seen. Deeply unpleasant, entirely without foundation.

Sure, Palin has strong religious views. But you cannot show any case where she let her religious views override strong public interest in her actions as Governor.

You realize I'm not arguing that it would be for religious reasons, right? So your criticism of me doesn't actually make any sense?

228 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:33:01pm

re: #221 Killgore Trout

I always love the reaction when Charles tells them he won't say what Little Green Footballs refers to.

229 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:34:03pm

Chris Matthews apologizes for calling West Point "the enemy camp. No link for the Freudian slippage-prone weasel, just look on YT if you care.

230 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:34:15pm

re: #228 Sharmuta

I always love the reaction when Charles tells them he won't say what Little Green Footballs refers to.

I'm listening right now. Charles is right. The guy is a douche.

231 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:34:45pm

re: #217 Obdicut

He's the host, so it probably was. I don't like him. He's one of those guys that even when he says something I agree with, I don't like the way he says it.

He likes to call up troops in Afghanistan and correct them on their lack of strategic vision, too.
Ex-lawyer.

What the bloody fuck? He actually calls our fighting men and women in a war zone and harasses them?

232 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:35:19pm

re: #228 Sharmuta

I always love the reaction when Charles tells them he won't say what Little Green Footballs refers to.

That would be a good topic for an open thread, our guesses as to what it means.

233 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:35:27pm

Oh man, that's hilarious.

"... an incident that happened in Japan in my youth."

Classic. Dude has no sense of humor or he'd have been laughing.

234 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:35:38pm

re: #92 Cineaste

Obviously it is a fine line how a president consults. If he gives too much credence to his Priest he becomes a tool of the church. Bad thing. If he gives too much credence to his Pentagon advisers he becomes tool of the military. Etc. So, it's on us to sort out who had good judgment and the nations best interests at heart and mind. Huck ain't it. Nor Palin, nor Pat Robertson. Who I'm going to like remains to be seen.

If an avowed atheist ran, I would be very interested to hear him discuss his moral foundation. It better be good.

235 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:35:41pm

re: #229 The Sanity Inspector

Chris Matthews apologizes for calling West Point "the enemy camp. No link for the Freudian slippage-prone weasel, just look on YT if you care.

It's here somewhere. Hold on.

236 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:35:48pm

re: #221 Killgore Trout

Thanks, Here's the interview...

[Video]

I'm at the end here. Towards the ends it's not really an interview. It becomes a vehicle for Cenk Uygur's opinions and Young Turk's talking points.

237 brookly red  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:35:51pm

re: #229 The Sanity Inspector

Chris Matthews apologizes for calling West Point "the enemy camp. No link for the Freudian slippage-prone weasel, just look on YT if you care.

I say we don't forgive him on GP.

238 Bloodnok  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:35:58pm

re: #226 Killgore Trout

Big full moon out tonight. Where's Thanos?

Probably out photographing it.

239 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:36:16pm

re: #232 The Sanity Inspector

That would be a good topic for an open thread, our guesses as to what it means.

I think it means Charles is a closet Packers fan. ///

240 swamprat  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:36:28pm

Clemmons was a 17 year old who served 10 years of a 95 year sentence for robbery and theft. With a few "other convictions" thrown in for good measure.
Read the 6th "whereas".
this document is dated march 20th, 2000.

Here is letter, objecting to the clemency, dated January 14, 2004.

Seems to be a little time lag here.
17 year old sentenced to 95 years in prison?
Was he always nuts? Did he go nuts in prison? Did he go nuts outside?
Here are the "other convictions". Firearms on school property; not good.
Here is the application where he scratched out "over 30 years", and put "6 years".

Not pushing any point or agenda, just posting these documents.

241 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:36:42pm

re: #235 MandyManners

It's here somewhere. Hold on.

I saw that bit last night. In context, I didn't think it was really offensive, but it was kinda dumb.

242 albusteve  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:36:45pm

re: #226 Killgore Trout

Big full moon out tonight. Where's Thanos?

it rises in full 4 oclock afternoon sunlight out here just north of the Sandias...very dramatic

243 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:36:57pm

re: #229 The Sanity Inspector

Chris Matthews apologizes for calling West Point "the enemy camp. No link for the Freudian slippage-prone weasel, just look on YT if you care.

captdiggs posted this last night.


[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

244 BruceKelly  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:37:40pm

re: #199 Obdicut

You have nil ground to believe she wouldn't; she's unpredictable.

The ol' prove the negative gambit... tsk* tsk*

245 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:37:44pm

re: #241 celticdragon

I saw that bit last night. In context, I didn't think it was really offensive, but it was kinda dumb.

NO OFFENSIVE???

*thunk*

246 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:37:45pm

re: #94 SanFranciscoZionist

I only had one ding to give. ROFL. Perfectly timed my friend.

247 swamprat  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:38:11pm

sorry.
Here is the link to the falsified doc.

248 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:38:46pm

re: #231 MandyManners

What the bloody fuck? He actually calls our fighting men and women in a war zone and harasses them?

Yeah... it's not very classy. He's trying to be a confrontational journalist, but it comes off badly. I mean, if you're in the armed forces, what you can say is very constrained, and he should know that. That being said, I don't watch/listen to the show that often, so maybe I'm slandering him... but I don't think so. I've heard him do that twice, out of maybe ten shows I've hard.

He's a pretty unpleasant man. If you watch the videos... well, he's one 'liberal' that definitely is narcissistic.

249 brookly red  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:39:05pm

re: #231 MandyManners

What the bloody fuck? He actually calls our fighting men and women in a war zone and harasses them?

no that couldn't be... that would be like you know, treason.

250 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:39:17pm

re: #237 brookly red

I say we don't forgive him on GP.

In the context he meant...a military audience can be seen as hostile ground for a left leaning Democrat.

That being said, it was not the smartest thing he has ever said.

251 ED 209  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:39:33pm

re: #103 MandyManners

Can't argue with that.

252 albusteve  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:40:12pm

re: #249 brookly red

no that couldn't be... that would be like you know, treason.

there is no such thing as treason...only victims of imperialism

253 Silvergirl  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:40:17pm

re: #165 Aceofwhat?

So is Romney still Satan? the ramifications are starting to make me dizzy.

On the other hand, i always thought that Romney had too good of a head of hair to really be Satan.

He's hiding his horns under that mane, don't you know?

I'm a Romney fan and have been steamed over Huckabee ever since he arrived on the scene. What a kidder that Huck. I hope his fall is hard and fast.

254 Gelly  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:40:28pm

re: #180 Sharmuta

That was an earlier arrest - he got out on bail, committed more crimes that night, was arrested again the next time they saw him, and then for some reason they let him out on bail again. However, that was my POINT - something's seriously wrong in both Arkansas and Washington, but there's not going to be any investigations into it because Huckabee's going to take the fall no matter what and any attempt to investigate it from the Arkansas side will just look like him trying to "weasel out", while his successor will take away the lesson that as long as he doesn't personally involve himself he won't suffer any consequences, and thus ignore it. It won't even be considered to explore the Washington system's failings, which is important as some fairly blatant incompetence had to be going on for what happened to happen. In both Arkansas and Washington, there's signs of potential prosecutor misconduct or incompetence every single time he saw the inside of a courtroom.

255 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:40:54pm

re: #229 The Sanity Inspector

Chris Matthews apologizes for calling West Point "the enemy camp. No link for the Freudian slippage-prone weasel, just look on YT if you care.

I heard about that. What a false characterization. The cadets at West Point are a very diverse and intelligent population. There's a wide range of political ideologies within the cadet ranks. They are always respectful of the CiC and even guest speakers who come from all walks of life.

256 darthstar  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:40:59pm

So, it looks like the kid played the 'prayer' card with Huckabee (something I posited the other day over at the great orange satan where I post under the same handle).

[Link: documents.nytimes.com...]

Interestingly, he asked for a reduction in sentence, not full clemency. I'll grant that sixty years for burglary was a little excessive, but in hindsight, it may have been appropriate.

257 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:42:09pm

Charles,

The NYT managed to find this stuff now? Where were they in the 2008 primaries when Huckabee's clemency issues were first brought up? It would have killed his campaign then, but they didn't think it important to dig deeper.

And the PAC coordinator bails now, even though the Wayne Dumond issue made it all too obvious that Huckabee's judgment was flawed. Better late than never I guess.

258 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:42:38pm

re: #245 MandyManners

NO OFFENSIVE???

*thunk*

As I just said, he appeared to be saying that a military audience is hostile territory for a left leaning Democrat. I don't think that is risible, nor even particularly controversial.

The way he put it was unusually stupid.

259 brookly red  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:43:46pm

re: #250 celticdragon

In the context he meant...a military audience can be seen as hostile ground for a left leaning Democrat.

That being said, it was not the smartest thing he has ever said.

and so in a few months when they are fighting & dying for a left leaning democrat I should forgive some TV a-hole? NO. F'him.

260 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:43:51pm

re: #248 Obdicut

Yeah... it's not very classy. He's trying to be a confrontational journalist, but it comes off badly. I mean, if you're in the armed forces, what you can say is very constrained, and he should know that. That being said, I don't watch/listen to the show that often, so maybe I'm slandering him... but I don't think so. I've heard him do that twice, out of maybe ten shows I've hard.

He's a pretty unpleasant man. If you watch the videos... well, he's one 'liberal' that definitely is narcissistic.

Who allows this moron to contact our troops in a war zone?

261 Joanne  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:44:34pm

re: #5 brookly red

Anyone who cares about justice and letting violent criminals back into society, especially when they haven't served their sentences. I think that will be quite a large number of Americans.

262 jaunte  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:44:39pm

Cenk Uygur fake-laughs too much.

263 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:44:40pm

re: #249 brookly red

no that couldn't be... that would be like you know, treason.

My flabber gets gasted a lot nowadays.

264 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:45:15pm

re: #251 ED 209

Can't argue with that.

Spoils-sport.

265 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:45:59pm

Freedom blooms in the heart of the ancient caliphate. What's so bad about that?

266 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:46:22pm

re: #260 MandyManners

Who allows this moron to contact our troops in a war zone?

No, you're not understanding what a jerk he is:

These are 'liberal' troops, pre-screened as friendly military contacts. Ones who have agreed to be on the show.

That's what's odious about it to me-- he's being confrontational with people who are at least more politically aligned than most members of the military.

267 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:46:25pm

re: #265 Sharmuta

Freedom blooms in the heart of the ancient caliphate. What's so bad about that?

Iraq?

268 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:46:25pm

re: #259 brookly red

and so in a few months when they are fighting & dying for a left leaning democrat I should forgive some TV a-hole? NO. F'him.

Well, don't forgive him then.

If nobody ever forgave me for mispeaking, nor I to others, than we would all be much happier, right?

I doubt it.

269 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:46:36pm

re: #256 darthstar

So, it looks like the kid played the 'prayer' card with Huckabee (something I posited the other day over at the great orange satan where I post under the same handle).

[Link: documents.nytimes.com...]

Interestingly, he asked for a reduction in sentence, not full clemency. I'll grant that sixty years for burglary was a little excessive, but in hindsight, it may have been appropriate.

When he was a juvenile, was he ever charged as an adult?

270 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:47:17pm

re: #267 Gus 802

Iraq?

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

271 swamprat  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:47:25pm

re: #257 lawhawk

Charles,

The NYT managed to find this stuff now? Where were they in the 2008 primaries when Huckabee's clemency issues were first brought up? It would have killed his campaign then, but they didn't think it important to dig deeper.

And the PAC coordinator bails now, even though the Wayne Dumond issue made it all too obvious that Huckabee's judgment was flawed. Better late than never I guess.

Yeah. A 17 year old serving 95, or 60, or whatever years getting parole; that would have ended his campaign. Sure it would.
Now if he had done something really insane at that time, yeah.

272 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:47:34pm

re: #257 lawhawk

Charles,

The NYT managed to find this stuff now? Where were they in the 2008 primaries when Huckabee's clemency issues were first brought up? It would have killed his campaign then, but they didn't think it important to dig deeper.

And the PAC coordinator bails now, even though the Wayne Dumond issue made it all too obvious that Huckabee's judgment was flawed. Better late than never I guess.

Oh, good observation.

273 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:47:44pm

re: #262 jaunte

Cenk Uygur fake-laughs too much.

I noticed that.

274 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:48:09pm

re: #258 celticdragon

As I just said, he appeared to be saying that a military audience is hostile territory for a left leaning Democrat. I don't think that is risible, nor even particularly controversial.

The way he put it was unusually stupid.

I have ears to hear.

275 jaunte  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:48:57pm

re: #273 celticdragon

It's hard to tell whether he's using it as a way to criticize what he's just heard, or if it's just a nervous tic.

276 brookly red  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:49:42pm

re: #268 celticdragon

Well, don't forgive him then.

If nobody ever forgave me for mispeaking, nor I to others, than we would all be much happier, right?

I doubt it.

you just played yourself... he dissed his country. do you see the diffrence?

277 reine.de.tout  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:50:18pm

re: #275 jaunte

It's hard to tell whether he's using it as a way to criticize what he's just heard, or if it's just a nervous tic.

Sounded to me like a laugh used to belittle or demean what the other person just said.

278 BruceKelly  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:50:27pm

re: #232 The Sanity Inspector

That would be a good topic for an open thread, our guesses as to what it means.

I'd like to play that game. I'm old enough, and familiar enough with Japan to have a pretty good guess, or two.

279 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:50:28pm

Though, Mandy, I may be slightly off-- the worst interview was with a vet, not someone actually in the war zone.

Here's that conversation so you could judge for yourself whether I'm being unfair.

Youtube Video

The gentleman talking to him is from the Truman Project, and I find what he has to say to be deeply interesting.

280 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:50:40pm

re: #266 Obdicut

No, you're not understanding what a jerk he is:

These are 'liberal' troops, pre-screened as friendly military contacts. Ones who have agreed to be on the show.

That's what's odious about it to me-- he's being confrontational with people who are at least more politically aligned than most members of the military.

Again, who allows them to be on this show?

A war zone is not a democracy. The First Amendment right to free speech is NOT viable.

281 celticdragon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:50:44pm

re: #274 MandyManners

I have ears to hear.

Well, okay.

I interpreted it as such when I heard it, and it didn't really strike me. Being somebody who can be quick to take offense wrt all matters army related, I didn't find anything noteworthy about the comment.

282 gregb  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:51:16pm

Wow. That's going to leave a mark. I wonder who this Cory Cox guy is?

283 jaunte  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:51:46pm

re: #277 reine.de.tout

Sounded to me like a laugh used to belittle or demean what the other person just said.

Yes, it did. It's just such a content-free technique for an interviewer, it's surprising.

284 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:51:51pm

re: #280 MandyManners

Sorry, Mandy, the particular interview I was thinking with was with a vet. I still found it very.. stupid of him to argue with the vet in the way he did, but the vet wasn't in Afghanistan at the time.

Sorry for getting you het up; I know he's talked to troops, but I think just to press people, who, you know, their job is to talk to the media.

285 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:52:05pm

re: #281 celticdragon

Well, okay.

I interpreted it as such when I heard it, and it didn't really strike me. Being somebody who can be quick to take offense wrt all matters army related, I didn't find anything noteworthy about the comment.

Well, I did.

286 albusteve  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:52:12pm

re: #280 MandyManners

Again, who allows them to be on this show?

A war zone is not a democracy. The First Amendment right to free speech is NOT viable.

the courts are top heavy with liberal judges...jus sayin

287 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:52:52pm

re: #257 lawhawk

Charles,

The NYT managed to find this stuff now? Where were they in the 2008 primaries when Huckabee's clemency issues were first brought up? It would have killed his campaign then, but they didn't think it important to dig deeper.

And the PAC coordinator bails now, even though the Wayne Dumond issue made it all too obvious that Huckabee's judgment was flawed. Better late than never I guess.

He's bailing now because he stuck his finger into the political wind and saw that it was blowing Huckabee into the political ditch.

He didn't bail before this because Huckabee was at the top of a lot of GOP polls.

But, you know, he prayed about it. Uh huh. Right. What he really did was calculate the political odds, and God told him Huckabee was in big trouble over this.

288 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:53:08pm

re: #284 Obdicut

Sorry, Mandy, the particular interview I was thinking with was with a vet. I still found it very.. stupid of him to argue with the vet in the way he did, but the vet wasn't in Afghanistan at the time.

Sorry for getting you het up; I know he's talked to troops, but I think just to press people, who, you know, their job is to talk to the media.

Wait a second. Are you saying that he has not talked to troops in a war zone?

If so, why didn't you say so earlier?

289 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:53:31pm

Howdy folks.

Huckabee is finished with the exposure of these letters. Holy crap what an arrogant fool. I'm glad this came up now instead of the primaries (assuming he would still be a contender).

290 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:53:43pm

OT:

Had an awesome dinner! Homemade falafel with tz'ips v'hatzilim (deep fried potatoes & eggplant), on fresh-baked pita. The pita came out a little bit too thick, but Zedushka wasn't complaining.

291 carlitos  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:54:05pm

The letter you cited:

"The governor read you [sic] letter and laughed out loud."


was a response to another clemency appeal, not that of Clemmons. I'm 90% sure. It does go towards Huckabee's attitude, but not in regard to that specific case. The NY Times article is badly written (surprise) which doesn't get the point across that it was a separate case.

292 darthstar  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:54:12pm

re: #271 swamprat

Yeah. A 17 year old serving 95, or 60, or whatever years getting parole; that would have ended his campaign. Sure it would.
Now if he had done something really insane at that time, yeah.

Exactly...Huckabee's fresh meat now...back during the campaign, he was just this jolly preacher who had lost a ton of weight and had a folksy way of communicating with people--and was quite funny, I'll admit (and I'm as freakin' liberal and anti-Huck as they come). Granted, he was out-folksy'd by Sarahbarracougar, but he was quite popular and noone was going to dig up dirt on an ex-pastor. Now that one of his free-birds has killed four policemen, he's the Dukakis of the day (remember Willie Horton?). And he's safe to attack for both Republicans and Democrats...and there's nothing our politicians from "both parties" (I use quotes because our two party system is anything but when it comes to important issues) like more than an easy target.

I'm still waiting for Sarah Palin's ghost-responder's response to the Huckabee affair.

293 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:54:40pm

re: #288 MandyManners

Mandy, I know he's talked to people in Afghanistan, but I believe they were press contacts or got permission to go on the show. Like I said, I'm not a huge fan of the show. I'm sorry for having talked about stuff I half-remembered, but please still watch the video above, because I think it's a very interesting point of view from an Afghanistan vet.

294 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:54:46pm

re: #271 swamprat

There was the case of Wayne Dumond (not Dugard above). His sentence was commuted by Huckabee, and Dumond went on to rape and murder a woman, Carol Sue.

295 Gelly  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:54:49pm

re: #261 JustJay

He was sentenced when he was 17 years old, and spent 19 years in prison before his sentence was commuted from 108 years to 48 years, making him eligible for parole. The problem here is the incredible inadequacy of the "correctional" system to rehabilitate him or identify his problems, not to mention their complete failure to deal with his later offenses properly.

296 carlitos  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:55:42pm

For clarity:

Robert Herzfeld, then the prosecuting attorney of Saline County, wrote a letter to Governor Huckabee in January 2004, saying his policy on clemency was “fatally flawed” and suggesting that he should announce specific reasons for granting clemency. Mr. Huckabee’s chief aide on clemency wrote back: “The governor read your letter and laughed out loud. He wanted me to respond to you. I wish you success as you cut down on your caffeine consumption.”
297 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:56:04pm

Get your forks ready for stickin' cuz Huck's done.

298 brookly red  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:56:12pm

re: #289 NJDhockeyfan

Howdy folks.

Huckabee is finished with the exposure of these letters. Holy crap what an arrogant fool. I'm glad this came up now instead of the primaries (assuming he would still be a contender).

O survived Wright, Huck can survive this... maybe he should not, but he can.

299 albusteve  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:56:52pm

re: #287 Charles

He's bailing now because he stuck his finger into the political wind and saw that it was blowing Huckabee into political ditch.

He didn't bail before this because Huckabee was at the top of a lot of GOP polls.

But, you know, he prayed about it. Uh huh. Right. What he really did was calculate the political odds, and God told him Huckabee was in big trouble over this.


inserting a divine element into his decision moves him a step away from what might have been a former responsibility all his own...slither away with some cover

300 gregb  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:57:34pm

Wow, I bet his 3 references on page 17 are kicking themselves, but who uses PO Boxes for references?

Marilyn Williams
Has someone tried calling[no phone numbers allowed]?

Betty Jordan[no phone numbers allowed]?

Leslie Latte
[Link: tinyurl.com...]

301 researchok  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:57:48pm

Charles is right- the guy is a dick.

I really liked the last part of the interview.

Every president inherits the legacy of his predecessor. It is his job to deal with that legacy and leave his office with his own legacy that will will be dealt with by his successor.

In ridding the middle east of Sadaam and his murderous intentions (recall his nuclear program components buried in gardens), Bush left the region better off. It was not pretty and was not executed perfectly and there were plenty of mistakes, but every one is better off. Obama's job is immeasurably easier because of George Bush. The proof of that is in the pudding. Obama has continued on with many of Bush's policies, those seen and unseen.

One can only hope that Obama leaves a similar legacy for his successor. I for one wish him well. Like George Bush, he's got a full plate and tough row to hoe.

302 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:58:17pm

re: #298 brookly red

There's a different level of connection here. This isn't just saying you were friends with X or Y, but the actions and consequences are a direct result of actions made by Huckabee; he can try to foist the blame on others, but it was Huckabee's ultimate decision to grant the pardon, and it was never warranted in the first place - not with Clemmons' violent past.

303 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:58:25pm

re: #296 carlitos

Hubris. Utter hubris.

And, four cops paid the price.

304 swamprat  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:59:06pm

re: #292 darthstar

I'm waiting for all the politicians to start saying;
'you know I never did like him. I was only...blah blah blah'

/bob dylan;
I've seen friends disappear like smoke.

305 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:59:14pm

re: #211 Charles

You are in a good place to excoriate the wingnuts both parties need to jettison. Unfortunately that will be between the lefties rock and the far right socons hard place. The reasonable deserve a voice, one well apart from partisan obligations. Charles based on your own work-You are now that voice. You, one of very few.

306 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:59:16pm

How fucked up does a legal system have to be to sentence convicts to serve 500-1000 year terms? What is the purpose of that? Because "natural life" can be paroled down to 7 years?

307 John Neverbend  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 6:59:40pm

re: #221 Killgore Trout

Thanks, Here's the interview...

I think the interview could be summarized as Cenk Uygur saying, "I'm much more left wing than you are, ner ner ner ner ner."

308 Joanne  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:01:43pm

re: #295 Gelly

I understand that. Now, with 20/20 hindsight, get millions of law respecting Americans to buy it. What bumper sticker slogan do you think will get Huck off the hook?

309 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:01:46pm

re: #292 darthstar

Sarabarrahcougar...love it...plan to plagiarize it before the week is out. Props.

310 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:02:17pm

re: #306 Alouette

How fucked up does a legal system have to be to sentence convicts to serve 500-1000 year terms? What is the purpose of that? Because "natural life" can be paroled down to 7 years?

Build more prisons?

311 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:02:26pm

re: #298 brookly red

O survived Wright, Huck can survive this... maybe he should not, but he can.

I disagree. Obama is a Democrat and the liberal press did their best to play down Wright (except Fox News), Huck is a Republican so the press will headline this until Huck is completely done. I don't have a problem with them going after Huckabee, he deserves it, but I wish they would have given Obama the same treatment. I think Rev Wright was a legitimate issue during the campaign.

312 darthstar  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:02:34pm

re: #304 swamprat

I'm waiting for all the politicians to start saying;
'you know I never did like him. I was only...blah blah blah'

/bob dylan;
I've seen friends disappear like smoke.

You won't have to wait long. Four policemen were killed. There isn't a politician on the planet who will protect Huckabee's ass now. I suppose that's why his initial statements were to pass the blame onto others, but he knew the documentation was out there, so this probably isn't a surprise for the Huckster.

313 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:03:08pm

SJS Hassan was charged with 32 counts of premeditated attempted murder.

314 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:03:37pm

re: #307 John Neverbend

I think the interview could be summarized as Cenk Uygur saying, "I'm much more left wing than you are, ner ner ner ner ner."

When he said "we killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis," I realized I was dealing with a true believer.

315 swamprat  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:03:59pm

So the NYT posted a 4 year old letter demonstrating the animosity between these two men, and presented it as if it was in regards to the clemency in question. I must say, I've never seen them demonstrate any tendencies towards partisanship. And goodness knows they shy away from misleading the public at all costs.

/!

316 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:04:01pm

re: #311 NJDhockeyfan

I disagree. Obama is a Democrat and the liberal press did their best to play down Wright (except Fox News), Huck is a Republican so the press will headline this until Huck is completely done. I don't have a problem with them going after Huckabee, he deserves it, but I wish they would have given Obama the same treatment. I think Rev Wright was a legitimate issue during the campaign.

YesssSSSsss!

317 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:04:02pm

Regarding the Young Turks interview: I was never the biggest fan of the Iraq war but once we were in it I wanted to win (unlike the left who wanted desperately to lose). The only way the invasion of Iran helped Iran is that it brought a little more stability to the region and Iran no longer had to worry about invasion from Iraq. If Saddan was still in power today you can bet your ass he'd be working furiously to beat Iran to a nuclear bomb. If he could beat them to a bomb I think there's a good chance he'd try to conquer Iran before the Iranians decided to nuke Baghdad. Like it or not we did bring a lot of stability to the region.

318 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:04:10pm

re: #298 brookly red

O survived Wright, Huck can survive this... maybe he should not, but he can.

Sorry but. How can one compare Wright and Obama to Huckabee and the murder of 4 police officers in Washington. Especially in light of what happened to Michael Dukakis.

He's through.

319 darthstar  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:04:13pm

re: #309 Aceofwhat?

Sarabarrahcougar...love it...plan to plagiarize it before the week is out. Props.

I came up with that one when she started harping on Levi on Oprah and every other Sarah-friendly interview she had...it got me to thinking that maybe Levi knows Sarah as much as he knows Bristol...would be some beautiful schadenfreud for her.

320 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:04:19pm

re: #310 MandyManners

Build more prisons?

you know, even though there are more folks in prison these days...crime is on the decline. i can't figure it out for the life of me.

321 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:04:32pm

re: #313 MandyManners

SJS Hassan was charged with 32 counts of premeditated attempted murder.

The needle won't come soon enough for that bastard.

322 William of Orange  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:04:51pm

And another political career down the drain. I could live with some mishaps in the personal atmosphere like the escapades of Mike Sandford. No life was lost with his wrongdoing. But Huckabee TWICE made a fatal mistake.


Farewell chances of ever becoming the POTUS.

323 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:05:29pm

re: #317 Killgore Trout

Regarding the Young Turks interview: I was never the biggest fan of the Iraq war but once we were in it I wanted to win (unlike the left who wanted desperately to lose). The only way the invasion of Iran helped Iran is that it brought a little more stability to the region and Iran no longer had to worry about invasion from Iraq. If Saddan was still in power today you can bet your ass he'd be working furiously to beat Iran to a nuclear bomb. If he could beat them to a bomb I think there's a good chance he'd try to conquer Iran before the Iranians decided to nuke Baghdad. Like it or not we did bring a lot of stability to the region.

He'd nuke Tel Aviv first.

324 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:05:49pm

re: #317 Killgore Trout

The only way the invasion of IranIraq helped Iran ...


I stink.

325 BruceKelly  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:05:49pm

re: #301 researchok

Charles is right- the guy is a dick.

I really liked the last part of the interview.

Every president inherits the legacy of his predecessor. It is his job to deal with that legacy and leave his office with his own legacy that will will be dealt with by his successor.

In ridding the middle east of Sadaam and his murderous intentions (recall his nuclear program components buried in gardens), Bush left the region better off. It was not pretty and was not executed perfectly and there were plenty of mistakes, but every one is better off. Obama's job is immeasurably easier because of George Bush. The proof of that is in the pudding. Obama has continued on with many of Bush's policies, those seen and unseen.

One can only hope that Obama leaves a similar legacy for his successor. I for one wish him well. Like George Bush, he's got a full plate and tough row to hoe.

So very well said, thanks.

326 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:06:01pm

re: #317 Killgore Trout

Watch the interview that I posted above with the Vet from the Truman Project.

If you don't know the Truman Project, by the way, they'd probably be of interest to most people on this blog: They're progressives-- ultraliberals-- who are hawks. Named after President Truman.

327 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:06:20pm

re: #319 darthstar


and she shoots things from helicopters. so you have that, too.

328 John Neverbend  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:06:36pm

re: #314 Charles

When he said "we killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis," I realized I was dealing with a true believer.

You displayed commendable patience.

329 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:06:51pm

re: #321 NJDhockeyfan

The needle won't come soon enough for that bastard.

He's going for an insanity defense.

330 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:07:08pm

re: #317 Killgore Trout

A respectable position and assessment to take (and yes, I saw the typo - The only way the invasion of Iraq helped Iran is that it brought a little more stability to the region and Iran no longer had to worry about invasion from Iraq.)

331 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:07:28pm

re: #323 MandyManners

He'd nuke Tel Aviv first.


I don't think so. Nuking Iraq would have much less political fall out, They might even get away with it. Nuking Israel would be an instant death sentence.

332 carlitos  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:07:43pm

re: #303 MandyManners

I totally agree. I just think it's important that we don't mis-attribute that quote to the Clemmons case, because (now 95% sure after googling) it was NOT related to the Clemmons clemency appeal.

333 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:07:56pm

re: #329 MandyManners

He's going for an insanity defense.

Fuck him.

334 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:08:44pm

re: #331 Killgore Trout

I don't think so. Nuking Iraq would have much less political fall out, They might even get away with it. Nuking Israel would be an instant death sentence.

ShortShit is about the Mahdi.

He'd nuke Israel.

335 HappyBenghazi  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:08:46pm

re: #326 Obdicut

Watch the interview that I posted above with the Vet from the Truman Project.

If you don't know the Truman Project, by the way, they'd probably be of interest to most people on this blog: They're progressives-- ultraliberals-- who are hawks. Named after President Truman.

Never heard of them, they sound interesting and much like myself, ultraliberal but hawkish. I see that they're headquarted in DC too. Maybe I ought to consider interning for them this summer.

336 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:08:58pm

re: #329 MandyManners

He's going to try and get a competency hearing to that effect, but premeditation goes against that. His actions suggest someone who was clearly in control, but it's what his lawyer has to do. It's his only chance to avoid the death penalty.

337 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:09:32pm

re: #317 Killgore Trout

I think the counter ideologies of radical islam are democracy and feminism. That's why last night when the President Obama spoke about the long term consequences of our actions, I thought of history and President Bush, and I think the long term "consequences" to Iraq might be better than some people fear, because the seed of democracy now grows in the heart of the old caliphate. It might have positive implications for the region for many years to come. Time will tell.

338 Cineaste  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:09:34pm

re: #234 Rightwingconspirator

Obviously it is a fine line how a president consults. If he gives too much credence to his Priest he becomes a tool of the church. Bad thing. If he gives too much credence to his Pentagon advisers he becomes tool of the military. Etc. So, it's on us to sort out who had good judgment and the nations best interests at heart and mind. Huck ain't it. Nor Palin, nor Pat Robertson. Who I'm going to like remains to be seen.

If an avowed atheist ran, I would be very interested to hear him discuss his moral foundation. It better be good.

But why are the only options priests and military? I think the priests shouldn't be in the room on that call.

Military - yep
National Security - yep
Historians - yep
Regional Specialists - yep
Economists - yep

Priests?

339 Digital Display  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:09:56pm

re: #329 MandyManners

He's going for an insanity defense.

A Shrink claiming insanity...I don't think that will fly

340 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:11:14pm

re: #334 MandyManners

ShortShit is about the Mahdi.

He'd nuke Israel.

In a New York minute. He will sacrifice the citizens of his own country for the return of the Mahdi. Don't underestimate this madman.

341 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:11:21pm

re: #335 HappyWarrior

Never heard of them, they sound interesting and much like myself, ultraliberal but hawkish. I see that they're headquarted in DC too. Maybe I ought to consider interning for them this summer.

It's very, very competitive, but I know they're well-respected. They're concentrating heavily right now on the national security aspects of Global Warming.

342 tradewind  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:11:33pm

re: #339 HoosierHoops
No, it won't, but hey... what other choice did he have? It was either plead out by reason of insanity, or admit he was on a jihadist rampage.///

343 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:11:43pm

re: #317 Killgore Trout

Regarding the Young Turks interview: I was never the biggest fan of the Iraq war but once we were in it I wanted to win (unlike the left who wanted desperately to lose). The only way the invasion of Iran helped Iran is that it brought a little more stability to the region and Iran no longer had to worry about invasion from Iraq. If Saddan was still in power today you can bet your ass he'd be working furiously to beat Iran to a nuclear bomb. If he could beat them to a bomb I think there's a good chance he'd try to conquer Iran before the Iranians decided to nuke Baghdad. Like it or not we did bring a lot of stability to the region.

It always amazes me when people like Uygur try to argue that Sadam Hussein was no threat. This is the dictator who got within months of having a working nuclear reactor online, generating enriched uranium.

Did we find WMDs in Iraq? Obviously, the answer is no. Was Saddam Hussein a brutal murderer who would continue to be a threat to the Middle East and the world? Obviously, the answer is yes.

The world is better off without Saddam in it, despite the messy consequences of our invasion of Iraq.

344 BruceKelly  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:12:01pm

re: #310 MandyManners

Build more prisons?

Set the pot smokers free.

345 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:12:05pm

re: #336 lawhawk

He's going to try and get a competency hearing to that effect, but premeditation goes against that. His actions suggest someone who was clearly in control, but it's what his lawyer has to do. It's his only chance to avoid the death penalty.

Oh, I don't think he has a chance with that defense but, his attorneys must do what they can to save him.

346 darthstar  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:12:18pm

re: #329 MandyManners

He's going for an insanity defense.

NPR had a story on Hassan this morning... The Insanity Defense will be about as effective as McCain's suspending his campaign was. Reasons:
1. He only shot soldiers, and actually drew down on civilians, then didn't shoot, but turned his gun on soldiers near them. This shows a pre-meditation and that he wasn't willing to harm non-combat people.
2. He had his gun aimed at the officer (sorry, I don't know her name) who shot him...at her head. He then shot her in the leg. In other words, he had her dead to rights and chose to wound her. Then she shot him four times and stopped his rampage.

Those two facts alone are enough to get the insanity defense thrown out. Asshole's going away for life, or less if the death penalty is enforced.

347 ED 209  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:12:35pm

re: #234 Rightwingconspirator

Obviously it is a fine line how a president consults. If he gives too much credence to his Priest he becomes a tool of the church. Bad thing. If he gives too much credence to his Pentagon advisers he becomes tool of the military. Etc. So, it's on us to sort out who had good judgment and the nations best interests at heart and mind. Huck ain't it. Nor Palin, nor Pat Robertson. Who I'm going to like remains to be seen.

If an avowed atheist ran, I would be very interested to hear him discuss his moral foundation. It better be good.

Yes a moral foundation based on an imaginary invisible friend is so much more superior to one based on enlightened self interest.

348 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:12:44pm

re: #339 HoosierHoops

A Shrink claiming insanity...I don't think that will fly

Ummm...it could. Not here, though.

349 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:13:20pm

re: #340 NJDhockeyfan

In a New York minute. He will sacrifice the citizens of his own country for the return of the Mahdi. Don't underestimate this madman.

Remember what Iran did to their kids on the battlefield?

350 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:13:35pm

re: #343 Charles

It always amazes me when people like Uygur try to argue that Sadam Hussein was no threat. This is the dictator who got within months of having a working nuclear reactor online, generating enriched uranium.

Did we find WMDs in Iraq? Obviously, the answer is no. Was Saddam Hussein a brutal murderer who would continue to be a threat to the Middle East and the world? Obviously, the answer is yes.

The world is better off without Saddam in it, despite the messy consequences of our invasion of Iraq.

Absolutely!

351 William of Orange  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:13:48pm

re: #13 MandyManners

The families of Griswold, Owens, Renninger and Richards?

And I expect to see Huckabee in court over his decission to free that murderer. And these letters will no doubt be given as evidence of Huckabee's wrongdoing. Makes me wonder in what degree Huckabee will be responsible for these four murders. The fact that these four victims were officers of the law will make it even worse for him.

A conviction will be the last nail in the coffin.

352 tradewind  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:13:50pm

re: #336 lawhawk
Isn't there a court rule there that mandates an automatic not guilty plea if the crime is death-penalty qualified?

353 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:14:13pm

re: #342 tradewind

No, it won't, but hey... what other choice did he have? It was either plead out by reason of insanity, or admit he was on a jihadist rampage.///

hmmm...are jihadist rampages crazy by definition? he could claim both!

354 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:14:14pm

re: #344 BruceKelly

Set the pot smokers free.

FUCKING-A, DUDE!

355 tradewind  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:14:28pm

re: #344 BruceKelly

On so many levels.///

356 Digital Display  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:14:50pm

re: #342 tradewind

No, it won't, but hey... what other choice did he have? It was either plead out by reason of insanity, or admit he was on a jihadist rampage.///

I know..But if he had courage in his convictions of faith he'd ask to become a martyr for his faith...Talk and emails are cheap...He is a coward

357 HappyBenghazi  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:14:52pm

re: #341 Obdicut

It's very, very competitive, but I know they're well-respected. They're concentrating heavily right now on the national security aspects of Global Warming.

I imagine so. That sounds intriguing. I've never seen Global Warming approached from a national security angle before. Truman has been a personal hero of mine ever since I read David McCullough's book.

358 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:15:19pm

re: #346 darthstar

His attorney would be remiss if this was not attempted.

359 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:15:20pm

re: #344 BruceKelly

Set the pot smokers free.

You should post more often.

360 Obdicut  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:15:30pm

re: #343 Charles

It always amazes me when people like Uygur try to argue that Sadam Hussein was no threat. This is the dictator who got within months of having a working nuclear reactor online, generating enriched uranium.

Did we find WMDs in Iraq? Obviously, the answer is no. Was Saddam Hussein a brutal murderer who would continue to be a threat to the Middle East and the world? Obviously, the answer is yes.

The world is better off without Saddam in it, despite the messy consequences of our invasion of Iraq.

My opposition to the Iraq war was about how we were being led into it. Once we were in the war, my concern was how to have the best possible outcome from it. It's not like going to war opened up Pandora's box; it was one move, I think an inferior move to many, but after that, it's pointless to talk about what could have been.

Hussein was a threat because he was a dictator. They are threats by default. They are unaccountable rulers. To a democracy, a dictator is inherently a threat and can never be any other way.

361 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:15:32pm

re: #344 BruceKelly

Set the pot smokers free.


yeahhh maaan. wait, what?

362 jaunte  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:15:39pm

re: #343 Charles

It always amazes me when people like Uygur try to argue that Sadam Hussein was no threat. This is the dictator who got within months of having a working nuclear reactor online, generating enriched uranium.


It's not really a history that Uygur can dismiss by claiming he was "just daydreaming."

363 Liberandos  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:15:40pm

Mike Huck needs to go to jail. This is criminal...

364 KingKenrod  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:15:46pm

Great video from last night's Late Late Show with Craig Ferguson...

Skip forward to the 4 minute mark to find out what Craig thinks of Saudi Arabia:

Youtube Video
365 Digital Display  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:15:58pm

re: #359 Sharmuta

You should post more often.

{Sharm}
Hope today finds you well

366 darthstar  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:16:08pm

re: #343 Charles

It always amazes me when people like Uygur try to argue that Sadam Hussein was no threat. This is the dictator who got within months of having a working nuclear reactor online, generating enriched uranium.

Did we find WMDs in Iraq? Obviously, the answer is no. Was Saddam Hussein a brutal murderer who would continue to be a threat to the Middle East and the world? Obviously, the answer is yes.

The world is better off without Saddam in it, despite the messy consequences of our invasion of Iraq.

Saddam Hussein lied about his nuclear and WMD capabilities...not so we'd invade, but because he was an insecure little prick who wanted to look tough to his neighbors. The one nuclear reactor he was building wasn't very complex, and I believe was destroyed pre-emptively by Israel...but I could be wrong about that.

Sure, he was an asshole. But he wasn't a threat to Kuwait anymore, as we'd spent the previous 12 years boming his country weekly when we thought we had valid targets, and the north and south sections of that country were no-fly zones. In short, bush invaded Iraq because he knew they couldn't fight back. That said, he didn't plan for the aftermath and insurgency--which focusing on infrastructure would have helped to alleviate.

367 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:16:18pm

re: #351 William of Orange

And I expect to see Huckabee in court over his decission to free that murderer. And these letters will no doubt be given as evidence of Huckabee's wrongdoing. Makes me wonder in what degree Huckabee will be responsible for these four murders. The fact that these four victims were officers of the law will make it even worse for him.

A conviction will be the last nail in the coffin.

What about proximate causation?

368 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:16:21pm

re: #349 MandyManners

Remember what Iran did to their kids on the battlefield?

The savages are running the government & military. There is nothing too vile they won't do.

369 Joanne  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:16:24pm

re: #344 BruceKelly

Amen! What a waste of resources; financial and human. Make room in overcrowded prisons for the serious deviants. All the early releases being done, how many were in for drugs? Regulate and tax it like we do booze.

370 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:17:03pm

re: #365 HoosierHoops

Hi, {Hoops}. Just waiting on my LGF calendar. Can't wait!

371 tradewind  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:17:19pm

re: #353 Aceofwhat?

are jihadist rampages crazy by definition

Not within a culture that reveres them as martyrs. **
**the radical segment of militant islam

372 darthstar  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:17:55pm

re: #358 MandyManners

He can try, but he's better off throwing himself on the leniency of the court and making this a non-trial.

373 brownbagj  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:18:10pm

Yes, these documents aren't directly about this one case, but obviously show some disdain between the DLC, huckybaby and the prosecutor who had seen MANY undeserving convicts go free.

The issue is the callous disregard to other opinions...specifically those who actually know the cases and try them.

374 swamprat  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:18:15pm

re: #351 William of Orange
Doubt that. Maybe civil. I think there is some sort of built-in protection. And there was no objection to the clemency from law or judical officials.

375 swamprat  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:19:27pm

re: #363 Liberandos

Mike Huck needs to go to jail. This is criminal...

Please make your case.

376 tradewind  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:19:53pm

re: #351 William of Orange

You're dreaming.
He's been a pardoning fool for thirty years, and this isn't the only murder that's resulted.
While I loathe that he has set so many scumbags free, and he should have a hard time sleeping, he is not ultimately responsible for their criminal actions. That's their own sorry asses.

377 Ojoe  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:19:54pm

re: #366 darthstar

Hussein knew we were coming for 6 months or more & had ample time to get his WMD out of Iraq.

378 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:19:55pm

re: #371 tradewind

i'll take that as a yes!

379 carlitos  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:20:48pm

Charles, I don't comment here much, but I like your site and I think that you strive for accuracy. I see that you are reading the comments now.

Are you comfortable with your insinuation that the letter referenced (governor laughed out loud, etc.) refers to the Clemmons case?

Here is the letter written regarding clemency in general


Here is the governor's response.

Neither document mentions Clemmons. You may want to clarify your post.

380 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:20:50pm

re: #343 Charles

The world is better off without Saddam in it, despite the messy consequences of our invasion of Iraq.

Agreed. Also I think it was stupid of him to bring up the Norks. N. Korea already has the bomb. It makes some sort of invasion or military action very risky. Once Saddam or Iran get the bomb then it's too late. You can't unring a bell. Once they get the bomb there's not much that can be done about it.

381 Ojoe  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:21:07pm

I hope Huckabee takes a big chunk of the GOP with him as he crashes.

382 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:21:49pm

re: #372 darthstar

He can try, but he's better off throwing himself on the leniency of the court and making this a non-trial.

Leniency at a court martial?

HAHAHAHAHAHAAA

383 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:22:25pm

re: #377 Ojoe

Hussein knew we were coming for 6 months or more & had ample time to get his WMD out of Iraq.

There was an Iraqi general who claims Saddam sent the WMD to Syria via commercial jets with the seats removed.

384 reine.de.tout  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:22:40pm

re: #370 Sharmuta

Hi, {Hoops}. Just waiting on my LGF calendar. Can't wait!

The calendar is great!

And for any interested newbies, there is a Volume 1 LGF Cookbook still for sale, with Volume 2 in the works (slowly to be sure but hey - it's all volunteer) - both cookbooks feature artwork by our very own Jaunte!

And at the cookbook blog, Killgore has his very own gardening tips section!

Click my nic anytime to get to the cookbook blog or buy Volume 1!

385 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:23:14pm

re: #379 carlitos

Charles, I don't comment here much, but I like your site and I think that you strive for accuracy. I see that you are reading the comments now.

Are you comfortable with your insinuation that the letter referenced (governor laughed out loud, etc.) refers to the Clemmons case?

Here is the letter written regarding clemency in general


Here is the governor's response.

Neither document mentions Clemmons. You may want to clarify your post.

Where did I "insinuate" that the letter refers to the Clemmons case?

386 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:24:17pm

re: #384 reine.de.tout

The calendar is great!

And for any interested newbies, there is a Volume 1 LGF Cookbook still for sale, with Volume 2 in the works (slowly to be sure but hey - it's all volunteer) - both cookbooks feature artwork by our very own Jaunte!

And at the cookbook blog, Killgore has his very own gardening tips section!

Click my nic anytime to get to the cookbook blog or buy Volume 1!

You will get many hours of pleasure, adn GOOD EATING out of the cookbook. I know I have!

387 Ojoe  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:24:46pm

re: #383 NJDhockeyfan

Yes, and after that Jordan thwarted an attack from Syria which the Jordanians claimed was an attack with WMD & would have killed upwards of 20,000 IIRC.

388 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:25:27pm

GAH!
PIMF. PIMF. PIMF.

Adn, should be and!

389 darthstar  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:25:32pm

re: #377 Ojoe

Hussein knew we were coming for 6 months or more & had ample time to get his WMD out of Iraq.

Okay...but how? He couldn't take a dump without there being photographic evidence of whether or not he ate corn for dinner. Between 1991 and 2002, we flew an average of 600 sorties a week over Iraq. And the longest period without a US bomb hitting a target in Iraq during that time was six days. Six. Days.

Contrary to popular belief, Bill Clinton continued GWH Bush's policy of keeping Iraq under an iron thumb. Again, this is why two days after 9/11 bush, Rumsfeld, Rice, etc. were looking for excuses to invade...they knew they had an easy target and that it would be popular with the American people...and sure enough, our troops faced no resistance until after Hussein was defeated and the Iraqis began to resent the coming occupation.

390 Killgore Trout  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:26:18pm

re: #384 reine.de.tout

I had the Broccoli soup for dinner again tonight. My new favorite recipe. With home grown broccoli it's free! Even with store bought broccoli it's about 20-25 cents per serving. 80-90 cents if you buy some expensive Chevre.

391 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:26:38pm

re: #380 Killgore Trout

Agreed. Also I think it was stupid of him to bring up the Norks. N. Korea already has the bomb. It makes some sort of invasion or military action very risky. Once Saddam or Iran get the bomb then it's too late. You can't unring a bell. Once they get the bomb there's not much that can be done about it.

It's one of those standard left wing talking points.

"If we're going to invade Iraq, why didn't we invade ... [insert country name] ... first?"

392 Cineaste  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:26:39pm

re: #343 Charles

It always amazes me when people like Uygur try to argue that Sadam Hussein was no threat. This is the dictator who got within months of having a working nuclear reactor online, generating enriched uranium.

Did we find WMDs in Iraq? Obviously, the answer is no. Was Saddam Hussein a brutal murderer who would continue to be a threat to the Middle East and the world? Obviously, the answer is yes.

The world is better off without Saddam in it, despite the messy consequences of our invasion of Iraq.

I don't disagree that he is not missed but I think there is, perhaps, a critical misread of the modern middle eastern history. I submit that Saddam was our best friend in the region prior to 1991.

1) Saddam was a secularist. He viewed himself as a modern day Salladin. He crushed Islamic extremists in his own country with brutality. In fact, he is the only leader in the region who completely controlled Islamic extremists in his own country. The leaders we support don't crush extremists, they buy them off by paying for madrassas in Pakistan.

2) Saddam was a valuable check against Iran. Saddam loathed everything the Iranians stand for and fought an eight year war against them. While war is bad and his tactics were horrible. From a cold, hard strategic perspective, we were on the same side re: Iran.

3) Saddam had no historical grievance with Israel and only began supporting Palestinian causes after he was beaten in 1991 as a way to tick off the west. He shared no ideological kinship with Hamas or Hezbollah.

4) Every leader in that region is despicable and supports draconian and reprehensible policies. Bar none. Since we had to back one of them, why not Saddam?

393 Ojoe  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:26:54pm

re: #389 darthstar

Okay...but how? He couldn't take a dump without there being photographic evidence of whether or not he ate corn for dinner.

You are joking right?

394 jaunte  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:27:09pm

re: #384 reine.de.tout

I'm working on drawings right now. Very, very, very,...s...low...ly.

395 BruceKelly  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:27:10pm

re: #343 Charles

It always amazes me when people like Uygur try to argue that Sadam Hussein was no threat. This is the dictator who got within months of having a working nuclear reactor online, generating enriched uranium.

Did we find WMDs in Iraq? Obviously, the answer is no. Was Saddam Hussein a brutal murderer who would continue to be a threat to the Middle East and the world? Obviously, the answer is yes.

The world is better off without Saddam in it, despite the messy consequences of our invasion of Iraq.

Just listened to the interview -- outstanding job dealing with "Dick."

396 ED 209  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:27:18pm

re: #344 BruceKelly

Amen.

;)

397 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:27:25pm

re: #383 NJDhockeyfan

There was an Iraqi general who claims Saddam sent the WMD to Syria via commercial jets with the seats removed.


How much fun would it have been to do the safety announcements on that flight?

398 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:27:56pm

re: #387 Ojoe

Yes, and after that Jordan thwarted an attack from Syria which the Jordanians claimed was an attack with WMD & would have killed upwards of 20,000 IIRC.

Rumor has it they are stored in caves somewhere in Syria. I think they are supposed to be biological & chemical weapons. If it's true, how long do ya think those weapons will be usable?

399 William of Orange  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:28:29pm

re: #385 Charles

Strictly spoken you are correct.

400 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:28:53pm

re: #383 NJDhockeyfan

There was an Iraqi general who claims Saddam sent the WMD to Syria via commercial jets with the seats removed.

And, there were reports during the lead-up that over-land routes were used to send it to Syria, too.

401 lostlakehiker  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:28:56pm

re: #59 all4one

The unfortunate thing is that governors, who with their clemency powers play a real (and vital) role in the criminal justice system, are more and more going to simply turn down every reasonable request for clemency that comes up. The only way to be sure that one of these doesn't come back to haunt you politically is to never let anyone out early. Something like 9% of Huckabee's early releases ended up back in prison. I don't know what the optimal number should be, but doesn't the fact that 9 out of 10 parolees went back to their families to lead productive lives factor in to the record?

If 9 percent ended up back in prison, then a further percentage shouldn't have, but managed to beat the system. What's more, each failure is more serious than any corresponding success. The man who's released and goes straight gets a few years of more or less normal life. The man who's released and goes on to rape and murder makes a mess of, or puts an end to, a whole life. Furthermore, the sentences we now hand down are our best guess as to the proper balance between mercy and justice. Only when new facts come to the attention of the authorities does it make sense to override that original best guess. Well over a dozen people put in extended deliberations on what to do with the offender before arriving at the original penalty. If a governor is issuing numerous pardons, most of them have to have been issued without much deliberation and without any good understanding of the original considerations. So, if you as governor learn that the original evidence was faulty, or if some other extraordinary circumstance arises that nobody could have thought about at the time, fine, issue your clemency. But for most cases, you don't know nearly as much about the guy as the people who fixed his punishment to start with, you don't know nearly as much about patterns of criminal behavior or recidivism or the deterrent effect on others of seeing an offender serve out a sentence, and you haven't given it much thought.

Clemency without reason is flip arrogance and high-handed self-importance in action. It's nice that Gov. Huckabee was so good as to put it all down in writing. Seldom do we have such a perfect confession to pride, sloth, and contempt for the serious work of others, all in one short official communication.

402 Ojoe  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:29:22pm

re: #398 NJDhockeyfan

I am no expert, but binary nerve gas munitions might last a while.

403 carlitos  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:30:13pm

re: #385 Charles

Where did I "insinuate" that the letter refers to the Clemmons case?

I apologize. Your post is quite clear that it refers to his objections to Huckabee's clemency policies, not the specific case. I must have read it wrong the first few times. A few other folks are making this mistake, which is why I had it in mind.

c

404 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:30:54pm

re: #398 NJDhockeyfan

Rumor has it they are stored in caves somewhere in Syria. I think they are supposed to be biological & chemical weapons. If it's true, how long do ya think those weapons will be usable?

Actually, i was wondering how long they'd be stable...i'm going to keep an eye out for wildlife with extra eyes and limbs...or i would if i had Syria on my shortlist. I'll be in Angola next week, but i doubt i'm connecting through Syria

405 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:31:21pm

re: #402 Ojoe

I am no expert, but binary nerve gas munitions might last a while.

I would guess they aren't American quality built weapons but still quite deadly.

406 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:31:24pm

re: #379 carlitos

The letters, and the response show how un-serious Huckabee was in dealing with pardons and commutations. It's a pattern of disturbing behavior on his part - and that his staff signed that particular letter on behalf of Huckabee is perhaps even more troubling.

That kind of response to an inquiry about the pardon process? It doesn't matter who it was about; it should raise all kinds of red flags about the process.

407 Ojoe  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:32:28pm

BBL

408 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:33:12pm

re: #347 ED 209

I suspected my post might draw out an anti religious sentiment. Fair enough. I'm sure the operative governmental benefits of say Friedrich Nietzsche would be extremely preferable to say the Dalai Lama.
///

409 Locker  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:35:01pm

re: #366 darthstar

Saddam Hussein lied about his nuclear and WMD capabilities...not so we'd invade, but because he was an insecure little prick who wanted to look tough to his neighbors. The one nuclear reactor he was building wasn't very complex, and I believe was destroyed pre-emptively by Israel...but I could be wrong about that.

Sure, he was an asshole. But he wasn't a threat to Kuwait anymore, as we'd spent the previous 12 years boming his country weekly when we thought we had valid targets, and the north and south sections of that country were no-fly zones. In short, bush invaded Iraq because he knew they couldn't fight back. That said, he didn't plan for the aftermath and insurgency--which focusing on infrastructure would have helped to alleviate.

Even though it's not the popular opinion I completely agree with you. I was there on the ground for Desert Storm and we blew the living crap out of everything he had and our weapons inspectors were there nonstop.

From the instant I started hearing the Iraq talk I knew it was BS. I was sure he didn't have any weapons to speak of and I could not fathom how we would take our entire military focus away from chasing and catching the guys who attacked us to beat up on Saddam the broke down chester.

I've thought many things about why it happened. On my generous days I think maybe it's just some military strategy by Cheney to draw the fight to a country we didn't care about and to destabilize the region. On my not so generous days I think it was a distraction from the fact that they didn't catch bin laden and that our economy was tanking. The insanely huge no bid contracts to Cheney's old corp were also ridiculous.

Opinions swing all over the place on this one but I couldn't let this go by and allow you to feel alone on this issue.

410 freetoken  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:35:13pm

Another Republican congressman sets his scientific ignorance out for everyone:

Youtube Video
411 [deleted]  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:35:35pm
412 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:36:26pm

re: #411 Barbarian at the Gate

Huckabee is an ass who was in McCain's camp in order to derail Mitt Romney who would have been a far stronger candidate.

Link?

413 Locker  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:37:06pm

re: #412 MandyManners

Link?

You want him to link his opinion?

414 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:37:15pm

I could've saved Jason Tolbert a lot of time. He didn't call me.

415 lostlakehiker  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:38:27pm

re: #366 darthstar

Saddam Hussein lied about his nuclear and WMD capabilities...not so we'd invade, but because he was an insecure little prick who wanted to look tough to his neighbors. The one nuclear reactor he was building wasn't very complex, and I believe was destroyed pre-emptively by Israel...but I could be wrong about that.

Sure, he was an asshole. But he wasn't a threat to Kuwait anymore, as we'd spent the previous 12 years boming his country weekly when we thought we had valid targets, and the north and south sections of that country were no-fly zones. In short, bush invaded Iraq because he knew they couldn't fight back. That said, he didn't plan for the aftermath and insurgency--which focusing on infrastructure would have helped to alleviate.

There was a moral price to the sanctions regime. Sanctions quietly undercut the basis of normal civilian life. No one dies as a direct consequence of sanctions, but dysentery rates drift upward, and malnutrition becomes endemic, and a lot of people die for reasons partially linked to the sanctions. On top of that, Saddam's misrule was going to continue while he ruled, and he ground up the lives of many others. In some cases, he literally cuisinarted his victims.

War cut the Gordian knot on all of that. The horrors of overt war, in this case, were less bad than the quiet horrors of the blockade that sanctions had become, topping off the horrors that Saddam dealt out to millions of Iraqis.

We wouldn't have invaded if we hadn't been alarmed for our own safety, but with guys like Saddam, and with things as they then stood, the ordinary Iraqi got a better deal out of the war and its aftermath and brighter prospects for the coming years 2010-2030, than he would have got out of another decade of the same old same old, followed by some decades of rule by Uday and Kusay.

416 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:38:31pm

re: #409 Locker

Saddam the broke down chester


The whaaa?

417 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:38:56pm

re: #409 Locker

The insanely huge no bid contracts to Cheney's old corp were also ridiculous.

Can't let that one go. Compare Cheney's charitable donations to Obama's or Biden's. The difference is striking. Money is the only thing this wasn't about, imho.

418 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:39:29pm

re: #392 Cineaste

I don't disagree that he is not missed but I think there is, perhaps, a critical misread of the modern middle eastern history. I submit that Saddam was our best friend in the region prior to 1991.

1) Saddam was a secularist. He viewed himself as a modern day Salladin. He crushed Islamic extremists in his own country with brutality. In fact, he is the only leader in the region who completely controlled Islamic extremists in his own country. The leaders we support don't crush extremists, they buy them off by paying for madrassas in Pakistan.

2) Saddam was a valuable check against Iran. Saddam loathed everything the Iranians stand for and fought an eight year war against them. While war is bad and his tactics were horrible. From a cold, hard strategic perspective, we were on the same side re: Iran.

3) Saddam had no historical grievance with Israel and only began supporting Palestinian causes after he was beaten in 1991 as a way to tick off the west. He shared no ideological kinship with Hamas or Hezbollah.

4) Every leader in that region is despicable and supports draconian and reprehensible policies. Bar none. Since we had to back one of them, why not Saddam?

But if you think that status quo could be maintained forever (Saddam keeping the Islamists under control with mass murder and torture), I submit that you're not being realistic. People will eventually rise up against that kind of domination, and we saw exactly that happen in Iran in the 70s. The clock was ticking.

The idea that we could count on him to continue being our "check" against the Islamists, and not to pursue his own goals of regional domination, strikes me as completely naive. Eventually, this confrontation would have happened anyway even if we hadn't invaded Iraq -- and if Saddam had died first and passed control of the country to his insane sons, all bets were off.

Saddam had no historical grievance with Israel and only began supporting Palestinian causes after he was beaten in 1991 as a way to tick off the west. He shared no ideological kinship with Hamas or Hezbollah.

Maybe not "ideological kinship," but he WAS funding Hamas and Hezbollah and supporting them in their terror war against Israel -- this is indisputable.

Saddam was a very bad actor in the Middle East, and if we hadn't dealt with him in 2004, we would have had to deal with him later -- or with his sons.

419 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:39:40pm

re: #410 freetoken

Another Republican congressman sets his scientific ignorance out for everyone:


Thaddeus McCotter (R-MI) and Greg Gutfeld prove themselves to be idiots once again. McCotter was the only Republican to vote for "Cash for Clunkers" BTW which is something the wingnuts keep getting major butthurt over.

420 Locker  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:40:05pm

re: #416 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The whaaa?

Hmm how can I say this a different way... Saddam the pulvarized putz? Saddam the crumbled cookie? Something like that...

421 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:40:31pm

re: #413 Locker

You want him to link his opinion?

He made what some would consider statements of fact.

422 lostlakehiker  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:41:38pm

re: #410 freetoken

Another Republican congressman sets his scientific ignorance out for everyone:


You can't prove anything to somebody who can't follow a chain of logic. McCotter may as well have stuck his fingers in his ears and hummed lalala, for all the thought he's given to the scientific case for AGW. He had no specific criticism or point of doubt.

423 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:41:41pm

re: #418 Charles

Regime change in Iraq was US policy under Clinton.

424 Locker  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:42:01pm

re: #417 Aceofwhat?

Can't let that one go. Compare Cheney's charitable donations to Obama's or Biden's. The difference is striking. Money is the only thing this wasn't about, imho.

Not sure what the point is with regard to my comments. Where do charitable contributions come into play?

425 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:42:21pm

re: #418 Charles

Thanks.

426 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:42:22pm

re: #418 Charles

Maybe not "ideological kinship," but he WAS funding Hamas and Hezbollah and supporting them in their terror war against Israel -- this is indisputable.

Didn't he pay $35,000.00 to the families of splodey-dopes?

427 Locker  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:42:39pm

re: #421 MandyManners

He made what some would consider statements of fact.

or he made what some would consider a statement of opinion and you made what some would consider a smart ass response cause you didn't like it.

428 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:42:41pm

re: #418 Charles

And the sanctions regime was under assault at every turn, and despite 17 UN SCRs, Iraq did not comply on the WMD issues, or the human rights nightmare of his own creation - including the mass murder of Marsh Arabs, Shi'ites and political opponents.

429 ED 209  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:42:42pm

re: #408 Rightwingconspirator

I suspected my post might draw out an anti religious sentiment. Fair enough. I'm sure the operative governmental benefits of say Friedrich Nietzsche would be extremely preferable to say the Dalai Lama.
///


Here you go Bruce...

Youtube Video
430 darthstar  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:43:17pm

re: #409 Locker

Opinions swing all over the place on this one but I couldn't let this go by and allow you to feel alone on this issue.

Thanks, Locker...I don't feel alone on the issue...I just call 'em like I see 'em. When I read the reports that we'd been bombing Iraq for 12 years every time we suspected illicit activity, I knew there was BS in the air. But I'm just an IT geek and my opinion is only worth the internet bytes it consumes.

Cheers

431 BruceKelly  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:43:22pm

re: #359 Sharmuta

You should post more often.

I will, thanks.

432 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:43:46pm

re: #424 Locker

Not sure what the point is with regard to my comments. Where do charitable contributions come into play?

He gives away too much income, unless you think he's lying on his tax returns, to have been the least bit concerned with what Halliburton was going to make.

433 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:43:55pm

re: #428 lawhawk

Anybody who funds something called a "rape room" should die.

Maybe that's just me.

434 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:44:29pm

re: #429 ED 209

LOL

I Love a good comedy. Monty Python has a certain style.

435 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:44:35pm

re: #433 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Anybody who funds something called a "rape room" should die.

Maybe that's just me.

seconded

436 freetoken  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:45:05pm

re: #419 Gus 802

Perhaps McCotter only went back to 1000BC so as not to offend his YEC base their in Michigan?

437 swamprat  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:45:05pm

re: #420 Locker

Hmm how can I say this a different way... Saddam the pulvarized putz? Saddam the crumbled cookie? Something like that...

Saddam the village gasser? The people shredder? The rape room landlord? The genocidal maniac?
The mullah of mayhem? The ayatollah of dismemberment?

438 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:45:47pm

re: #437 swamprat

My favorite
Saddam The DEAD.

439 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:46:31pm

re: #437 swamprat

Saddam the village gasser? The people shredder? The rape room landlord? The genocidal maniac?
The mullah of mayhem? The ayatollah of dismemberment?

THUG IN CHIEF.

440 idioma  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:46:36pm

It seems to me that faith is just another flaw in a persons character. It pollutes otherwise clear judgement, and leads people to trust the un-trustable, sometimes with lethal results.

Last week I said this:

Lest we forget: The delusions of the faithful get people killed. Huckabee put his faith before reason and facts. I don't think he should be in charge of anything more important than polishing my shoes.
441 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:46:52pm

re: #438 Rightwingconspirator

My favorite
Saddam The DEAD.

Gosh darn.

442 Joanne  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:47:00pm

re: #417 Aceofwhat?

Compare net worth. Cheney's is greater than many countries. That's an apples to prunes comparison. I wouldn't be surprised if his donations surpassed both of their gross incomes.

443 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:47:11pm

re: #438 Rightwingconspirator

My favorite
Saddam The DEAD.

I have a link!

Hold on.

444 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:47:16pm

re: #437 swamprat

the sultan of swing!!!

445 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:47:23pm

Ahhh, found it. The Iraqi general was General Sada. Here is a portion of an interview on H&C in 2006 regarding WMDs.

SADA: Well, I want to make it clear, very clear to everybody in the world that we had the weapon of mass destruction in Iraq, and the regime used them against our Iraqi people. It was used against Kurds in the north, against Arabs — marsh Arabs in the south...

HANNITY: Some people say they were destroyed. Did we still have them leading up to the invasion?

SADA: No, he had a very good organization that Saddam was created to show some of them but to continue to hide.

HANNITY: So he had them.

SADA: Yes.

HANNITY: Where were they? And were they moved and where?

SADA: Well, up to the year 2002, 2002, in summer, they were in Iraq. And after that, when Saddam realized that the inspectors are coming on the first of November and the Americans are coming, so he took the advantage of a natural disaster happened in Syria, a dam was broken. So he — he announced to the world that he is going to make an air bridge...

HANNITY: You know for a fact he moved these weapons to Syria?

SADA: Yes.

HANNITY: How do you know that?

SADA: I know it because I have got the captains of the Iraqi airway that were my friends, and they told me these weapons of mass destruction had been moved to Syria.

BECKEL: How did he move them, general? How were they moved?

SADA: They were moved by air and by ground, 56 sorties by jumbo, 747, and 27 were moved, after they were converted to cargo aircraft, they were moved to Syria.

BECKEL: So I assume this would not have happened without the permission of Damascus. Is that correct?

SADA: Well, of course, you know, when the aircraft would land in Syria, they must have some sort of agreement between the two.

BECKEL: So the Syrian government knows exactly where these weapons are today?

SADA: I think so. Because I am sure that these weapons have landed in Damascus. Where could they have gone?

446 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:47:23pm

re: #436 freetoken

Perhaps McCotter only went back to 1000BC so as not to offend his YEC base their in Michigan?

I was such a fool that I once thought McCotter had potential. He's another idiot. I'm amazed at how ignorant most of the GOP is.

447 axegrinder  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:48:19pm

Does this mean the Huckster is out of the running for the 2012 election? I sure hope so. I like him personally(Palin as well) but I'd really hate to see either on the ticket. I want Newt and Mitt. Hmm. Mitt and Newt. Sounds like a Saturday morning cartoon show. With puppets.

448 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:48:50pm

re: #442 JustJay

Compare net worth. Cheney's is greater than many countries. That's an apples to prunes comparison. I wouldn't be surprised if his donations surpassed both of their gross incomes.


comparisons are made on a percentage basis. that's the embarrassing part.

and you'd be surprised how much the obamas pulled in in 2007...

449 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:49:41pm

re: #443 MandyManners

I have a link!

Hold on.

Die, motherfucker. Die.


Google Video
450 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:49:42pm

re: #429 ED 209

I am hoping your hostility to religion is reserved for its abuse, rather than its actual existence in a President or an ordinary person..

451 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:49:42pm

re: #447 axegrinder

Does this mean the Huckster is out of the running for the 2012 election? I sure hope so. I like him personally(Palin as well) but I'd really hate to see either on the ticket. I want Newt and Mitt. Hmm. Mitt and Newt. Sounds like a Saturday morning cartoon show. With puppets.

Yep, he's out. And the base doesn't like Mormons so Romney's out. That leaves, Palin.

452 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:50:19pm

re: #447 axegrinder

The Huckster is a former candidate.
He has ceased to be.

453 Cineaste  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:50:22pm

re: #418 Charles

But if you think that status quo could be maintained forever (Saddam keeping the Islamists under control with mass murder and torture), I submit that you're not being realistic. People will eventually rise up against that kind of domination, and we saw exactly that happen in Iran in the 70s. The clock was ticking.

The idea that we could count on him to continue being our "check" against the Islamists, and not to pursue his own goals of regional domination, strikes me as completely naive. Eventually, this confrontation would have happened anyway even if we hadn't invaded Iran -- and if Saddam had died first and passed control of the country to his insane sons, all bets were off.

I don't think he was someone we could count on. But I don't think anyone in that region is. I don't disagree with any of your criticism of him and your argument overall but I think that most of your arguments could be applied to other regional leaders as well. Saddam made a crucial mistake in 1991 but prior to that, I think he was the best guy in a very bad neighborhood.

Maybe not "ideological kinship," but he WAS funding Hamas and Hezbollah and supporting them in their terror war against Israel -- this is indisputable.

Saddam was a very bad actor in the Middle East, and if we hadn't dealt with him in 2004, we would have had to deal with him later -- or with his sons.

He certainly was after 1991. I don't recall reading anything showing a relationship before 1991.

Again, I'm not using this as a reason why we shouldn't have attacked in 2004 (though I do come down on the side that it was not a necessary or prudent action at that moment), but I raise these points more to say that sometimes, with hindsight, enemies look like friends and friends look like enemies.

454 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:50:22pm

re: #409 Locker

Yeah- it was all a Darth Cheney plot.

455 darthstar  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:50:45pm

re: #445 NJDhockeyfan

Ahhh, found it. The Iraqi general was General Sada. Here is a portion of an interview on H&C in 2006 regarding WMDs.

Quoting someone Sean Hannity would have on his show is about as reliable as quoting Glenn Beck or Michele Bachmann. Is General Sada a real general with real information, or is he just a Faux-brication... Sean Hannity could say the sun was shining and I'd still feel the need to verify for myself.

456 freetoken  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:50:46pm

re: #436 freetoken

PIMF "there"

457 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:52:16pm

re: #445 NJDhockeyfan

I think there's little doubt that Saddam Hussein would have reconstituted his nuclear program as soon as he thought international attention had died down. But I no longer believe he really had any existing WMDs at the time of the Iraq invasion. We would have found much more evidence if that were the case -- that's the kind of thing that really can't be kept hidden.

458 J.S.  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:52:26pm

Also bullshit is the notion: "Saddam had no historical grievance with Israel and only began supporting Palestinian causes after he was beaten in 1991 as a way to tick off the West." Then explain Saddam's building the super gun (using a Canadian who was allegedly killed by Mossad...and good riddance to the bastard.)

459 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:52:55pm

re: #449 MandyManners

I. Am. Not. Allowed. To. Enjoy. That.

But I did.

460 darthstar  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:53:02pm

re: #454 Sharmuta

Yeah- it was all a Darth Cheney plot.

No relation, by the way...I hate it when people call Cheney 'darth'...gives us darths a bad name.

461 abolitionist  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:53:40pm

re: #392 Cineaste

[snip]
3) Saddam had no historical grievance with Israel and only began supporting Palestinian causes after he was beaten in 1991 as a way to tick off the west. He shared no ideological kinship with Hamas or Hezbollah.
[snip]

I recall that several scud missiles were fired at Israel during the Gulf War (Jan '91). And before that, Saddam had a deal going with a certain Dr. Gerald Bull for design and construction of long range superguns aimed primarily at Israel. Some of the supergun weapons were of such a grand scale that re-targeting was impractical.

462 axegrinder  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:54:25pm

re: #452 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The Huckster is a former candidate.
He has ceased to be.

Since this clemency thing or before? 'Cause the stats showed him as a favorite as recent as 2 weeks ago. Do people really care that much about what someone did 9 years ago? Especially if he comes out this weekend all teary eyed and proposes a new, hard line tough on crime stand. That might actually increase his popularity. The biggest problem I have with the Dems is taxes and soft on crime. Huckabee was a problem in both these areas. If he fixes those, I might like him more as a politician.

463 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:54:25pm

re: #449 MandyManners

Die, motherfucker. Die.

[Video]

Ya kahlb.

Youtube Video
464 swamprat  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:54:30pm

re: #458 J.S.

Also bullshit is the notion: "Saddam had no historical grievance with Israel and only began supporting Palestinian causes after he was beaten in 1991 as a way to tick off the West." Then explain Saddam's building the super gun (using a Canadian who was allegedly killed by Mossad...and good riddance to the bastard.)

No allegedly about it; he's quite dead.

465 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:54:39pm

re: #460 darthstar

No relation, by the way...I hate it when people call Cheney 'darth'...gives us darths a bad name.

Easy there.

466 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:55:02pm

re: #455 darthstar

Quoting someone Sean Hannity would have on his show is about as reliable as quoting Glenn Beck or Michele Bachmann. Is General Sada a real general with real information, or is he just a Faux-brication... Sean Hannity could say the sun was shining and I'd still feel the need to verify for myself.

OMG...Hannity had someone on his show. He must be a fabrication or something! Ahhh!!!

General Georges Sada

General Georges Hormiz Sada (aka Gewargis or George Hormis; Arabic: كوركيس هرمز ساده, Syriac: ܓܘܪܓܝܣ ܗܪܡܙ ܣܕܐ; born 1939?) is an Iraqi of Assyrian descent, an author and retired general officer of the Iraqi Air Force.

Sada was born to an Assyrian family (see his account) in Northern Iraq, that belonged to the Ancient Assyrian Church before becoming a 'born-again' Christian. In 1959 he graduated from the Iraqi Air Academy, and over the following years served as an Air Force Officer, including stints studying overseas in Britain, the USSR and the United States. Through 1964–1965 he was a student at Lackland Air Force Base in Texas.

He officially retired in 1986 as a 2 star officer, but was called back to active service for the 1990 invasion of Kuwait. According to his autobiography, he was briefly imprisoned in 1991 for refusing to execute POWs. He was told that Saddam didn't want him harmed but that he never wanted to see him again either.

After the 2003 Invasion of Iraq, Sada sided with the US-led government, and served as spokesman for the interim leader Iyad Allawi, and was appointed as National Security Advisor.

467 Cineaste  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:55:24pm

re: #458 J.S.

Also bullshit is the notion: "Saddam had no historical grievance with Israel and only began supporting Palestinian causes after he was beaten in 1991 as a way to tick off the West." Then explain Saddam's building the super gun (using a Canadian who was allegedly killed by Mossad...and good riddance to the bastard.)

I don't recall any specific connection between Project Babylon & Israel.

468 J.S.  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:55:27pm

re: #464 swamprat

I didn't say he's allegedly dead; I'm saying he was allegedly killed by Mossad.

469 Joanne  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:55:30pm

re: #448 Aceofwhat?

Roughly $1.5 mil IIRC, mostly from his book sales. Cheney's start with a B not a M. I stand by this being a false comparison.

470 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:55:58pm

re: #457 Charles

I think there's little doubt that Saddam Hussein would have reconstituted his nuclear program as soon as he thought international attention had died down. But I no longer believe he really had any existing WMDs at the time of the Iraq invasion. We would have found much more evidence if that were the case -- that's the kind of thing that really can't be kept hidden.

Agreed. According to Gen Sada he moved them out when it was clear we were coming.

471 swamprat  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:57:03pm

re: #468 J.S.


I got it.
He's really, quite sincerely, dead.

472 J.S.  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:57:56pm

re: #471 swamprat

And good riddance.

473 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:58:17pm

re: #458 J.S.

Also bullshit is the notion: "Saddam had no historical grievance with Israel and only began supporting Palestinian causes after he was beaten in 1991 as a way to tick off the West." Then explain Saddam's building the super gun (using a Canadian who was allegedly killed by Mossad...and good riddance to the bastard.)

From that same H&C interview:


SADA: Yes, actually, I had many times— I have disagreed with Saddam Hussein on many things. And for some reason, he used to believe me and he used to listen to me.

And thank God that in the last war, we were so supposed to attack Israel by like eight aircraft, all equipped with nuclear — chemical weapons in two waves, one wave through Jordan and the other wave through Syria, without telling Syrians and Jordan about that.

But I mentioned to the president, "Sir, this is going to be a disaster, because Israelis have got plans to destroy these airplanes before they go to Israel. Although whatever air defenses are good, but still some aircraft can penetrate."

Picture Dinnerjacket with nukes today. Same kinda crazy but worse.

474 Digital Display  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:58:21pm

Somebody said they Wanted Newt for POTUS on this thread?
Please.. Newt has more baggage than a Samsonite super luggage store on Black Friday..

475 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:59:21pm

re: #474 HoosierHoops

Hiya Hoops!
Newt for anything elected, not likely, anymore...

476 Cineaste  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:59:28pm

re: #457 Charles

I think there's little doubt that Saddam Hussein would have reconstituted his nuclear program as soon as he thought international attention had died down. But I no longer believe he really had any existing WMDs at the time of the Iraq invasion. We would have found much more evidence if that were the case -- that's the kind of thing that really can't be kept hidden.

I'm with you on this one completely. I believe that Saddam believed he had them. This was in part because he created such an environment of fear in his military that noone would give him bad news. It's possible his generals said they had it (which US intelligence picked up on) and everyone thought they were telling the truth. In fact, they were trying not to get killed by Saddam.

477 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 7:59:47pm

re: #449 MandyManners

Die, motherfucker. Die.

[Video]


I was expecting to see a video of My People beating the shit out of a Hewlett-Packard LaserJet III.

Google Video
478 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:00:14pm

re: #469 JustJay

What's wrong with people making piles and piles of money.

479 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:00:18pm

re: #467 Cineaste

I don't recall any specific connection between Project Babylon & Israel.

Israel didn't destroy the Osirak reactor in 1988 because they thought it was a threat to Iran -- Saddam was clearly aiming to obtain the first "Arab bomb." In fact, he said that outright.

And the purpose for an Arab bomb was very very clear.

480 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:00:33pm

re: #469 JustJay

Roughly $1.5 mil IIRC, mostly from his book sales. Cheney's start with a B not a M. I stand by this being a false comparison.

Wah.

481 Sharmuta  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:00:51pm

re: #469 JustJay

Roughly $1.5 mil IIRC, mostly from his book sales. Cheney's start with a B not a M. I stand by this being a false comparison.

Dick Cheney is not a billionaire.

Cheney's net worth, estimated to be between $30 million and $100 million, is largely derived from his post at Halliburton, as well as the Cheneys' gross income of nearly $8.82 million.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

482 Digital Display  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:01:10pm

re: #475 Floral Giraffe

Hiya Hoops!
Newt for anything elected, not likely, anymore...

{Floral} Hope today finds you well...How is the weather in Cali?
It's snowing here in the morning..Dang it

483 axegrinder  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:02:04pm

re: #474 HoosierHoops

Somebody said they Wanted Newt for POTUS on this thread?
Please.. Newt has more baggage than a Samsonite super luggage store on Black Friday..

Ha! I'm Someone now! I can't wait to tell my mom she was sooo wrong about me.

So what about baggage? Obama had his fair share and did...rather well. If he's sucking as bad in 2 and half years as he's sucking now Newt could win on a low taxes small government platform. Forget the baggage; what have you done for me LATELY?

484 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:03:10pm

re: #479 Charles

Israel didn't destroy the Osirak reactor in 1988 because they thought it was a threat to Iran -- Saddam was clearly aiming to obtain the first "Arab bomb." In fact, he said that outright.

And the purpose for an Arab bomb was very very clear.

Substitute "Islamic bomb" today.

485 swamprat  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:03:20pm

re: #472 J.S.
I have read hand-wringing articles carrying on about how he was only interested in his reseach and his ideas. And how the evil mossad gunned down this noble scientist. ...Barf!

486 Bloodnok  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:03:38pm

re: #481 Sharmuta

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Dick Cheney is not a billionaire.

Sure. That's what he wants you to think.

Dick Cheney is a sooper dooper gazillionaire. And he owns you.

/

487 lawhawk  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:04:00pm

re: #479 Charles

Israel didn't destroy the Osirak reactor in 1988 because they thought it was a threat to Iran -- Saddam was clearly aiming to obtain the first "Arab bomb." In fact, he said that outright.

And the purpose for an Arab bomb was very very clear.

Israel's operation to destroy the Osirak reactor was in 1981, not 1988. It was at the outset of the Iran-Iraq war, but the threat posed to Israel was all too clear from all the rhetoric coming from Saddam Hussein and pretty much all the other Arabs - death to Israel was the common theme. A nuclear Iraq - with missile tech or the capability to pass the weapon on to terrorist was an existential threat Israel had to deal with before the reactor went live.

And they did.

488 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:04:05pm

re: #477 negativ

Nice compilation there...

489 Cineaste  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:04:28pm

re: #479 Charles

Israel didn't destroy the Osirak reactor in 1988 because they thought it was a threat to Iran -- Saddam was clearly aiming to obtain the first "Arab bomb." In fact, he said that outright.

And the purpose for an Arab bomb was very very clear.

I think Israel was 100% correct in doing what they did as they perceived that a nuclear device in Arab hands was a clear and present danger. That being said, if I go back to my initial statement:

Saddam had no historical grievance with Israel and only began supporting Palestinian causes after he was beaten in 1991 as a way to tick off the west. He shared no ideological kinship with Hamas or Hezbollah.

I still stand by that. I think his desire for nukes was for regional control and, furthermore, control of oil territories. Israel had no strategic value for him. Frankly, nothing West of Syria did.

Again, I'm not trying to make him into Mr. Nice Guy and I'm not saying Israel should not have felt threatened and acted the way they did, but he was more closely aligned with many of our regional goals than other leaders in that area.

490 McSpiff  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:04:36pm

re: #484 MandyManners

Substitute "Islamic bomb" today.

To nuke India?

491 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:06:14pm

re: #490 McSpiff

To nuke India?

Pardon me but, are you fucking stupid?

492 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:06:26pm

re: #489 Cineaste

And we were an ally of?

493 McSpiff  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:06:46pm

re: #491 MandyManners

Pardon me but, are you fucking stupid?

There is an Islamic Bomb today. And its purpose is very clear, to nuke India.

494 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:06:56pm
Youtube Video
495 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:07:21pm

re: #493 McSpiff

There is an Islamic Bomb today. And its purpose is very clear, to nuke India.

LINK?

496 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:07:27pm

Human rights abuses under Saddam:


4000 prisoners were executed at Abu Ghraib Prison in 1984.

3000 prisoners were executed at the Mahjar Prison between 1993 and 1998.

About 2500 prisoners were executed between 1997 and 1999 in a "prison cleansing" campaign.

122 male prisoners were executed at Abu Ghraib prison in February/ March 2000. A further 23 political prisoners were executed there in October 2001.

In October 2000, dozens of women accused of prostitution were beheaded without any judicial process. Some were accused for political reasons.

Women prisoners at Mahjar were routinely raped by their guards.

Methods of torture used in Iraqi jails include using electric drills to mutilate hands, pulling out fingernails, knife cuts, sexual attacks and 'official rape'.

Prisoners at the Qurtiyya Prison in Baghdad and elsewhere were kept in metal boxes the size of tea chests. If they did not confess they were left to die.

Source

497 McSpiff  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:08:05pm

re: #495 MandyManners

LINK?

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

498 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:08:38pm

re: #469 JustJay

Roughly $1.5 mil IIRC, mostly from his book sales. Cheney's start with a B not a M. I stand by this being a false comparison.

Biden gave an average of $400 over the past few years on income of over $300,000 per year. I stand by this being a fantastic comparison.

499 borgcube  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:08:44pm

re: #210 Sharmuta

I'm going to leave them alone. It's private now that he's apologized.

It was private before he apologized. Guilty as charged. I didn't get make it in time to join the original golf pun fest here in LGF, so this was the best I could do now.

I'm really not a celebrity hound or anything like that to be honest. I couldn't care less about his personal life, although it's hard not to follow it a bit given the coverage. I knew he was married but I'd never even seen his wife. Holy smokes. What a maroon.

500 Cineaste  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:08:48pm

re: #492 Gus 802

And we were an ally of?

Well apparently Kuwait & Saudi Arabia.

501 abolitionist  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:08:55pm

re: #467 Cineaste

I don't recall any specific connection between Project Babylon & Israel.

The targeting is the connection. Some of these weapons were constructed up the sides of mountains, and aimed at Israel.

502 darthstar  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:09:06pm

re: #496 NJDhockeyfan

Human rights abuses under Saddam:

Source

None of which were cited reasons for invading. Sure, Saddam was an asshole and I'm actually quite happy knowing he's dead. But what he did to his own people is irrelevant. Period.

503 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:09:10pm

re: #481 Sharmuta

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Cheney's net worth, estimated to be between $30 million and $100 million

Ahh, I see. He's just Plain Common Folk, then.

504 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:09:13pm

re: #497 McSpiff

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

As if.

505 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:09:30pm

re: #500 Cineaste

Well apparently Kuwait & Saudi Arabia.

:)

Yep. And the Bin Laden family if my FBI records are correct.

506 Digital Display  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:09:36pm

re: #483 axegrinder

Ha! I'm Someone now! I can't wait to tell my mom she was sooo wrong about me.

So what about baggage? Obama had his fair share and did...rather well. If he's sucking as bad in 2 and half years as he's sucking now Newt could win on a low taxes small government platform. Forget the baggage; what have you done for me LATELY?

You may not want to read about his personal life...It's not what I am looking for in a leader in 2012..
But yes..You are somebody now..*wink*
[Link: www.realchange.org...]

507 ED 209  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:09:40pm

re: #450 Rightwingconspirator

I am hoping your hostility to religion is reserved for its abuse, rather than its actual existence in a President or an ordinary person..

My "hostility" as you put it is mostly reserved for those who invoke it in place of logic and reason, which would appear to almost always be the case when religion is evoked in public discourse. What is your hostility to atheism reserved for?

508 McSpiff  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:09:48pm

re: #504 MandyManners

As if.

You're saying the nuclear weapons of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan don't correspond to an Islamic bomb?

509 BryanS  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:10:21pm

re: #493 McSpiff

There is an Islamic Bomb today. And its purpose is very clear, to nuke India.

umm. No. Pakistan's bomb may be sold as such, but it's to balance against India. India/Pakistan both went nuclear for the classic reason of military balance and deterrence. Though I worry more about Pakistan's bomb falling into unsavory hands, it seems more about balance of power--and that is a bit less worrisome than Iran today or Iraq of yesterday.

510 Joanne  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:10:29pm

re: #478 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Not a thing in the world!! I just think making a comparison like that is, frankly, dumb and IMHO completely pointless. That would be like saying Jack Welsh donates more than me. To which I'd say duh and so? He makes in a day what I do in a year.

511 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:10:40pm

re: #503 negativ

What is wrong with someone making a lot of money?

512 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:10:44pm

Time to step back.

513 McSpiff  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:11:40pm

re: #509 BryanS

umm. No. Pakistan's bomb may be sold as such, but it's to balance against India. India/Pakistan both went nuclear for the classic reason of military balance and deterrence. Though I worry more about Pakistan's bomb falling into unsavory hands, it seems more about balance of power--and that is a bit less worrisome than Iran today or Iraq of yesterday.

O I agree. But there is an Islamic bomb.

514 Digital Display  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:11:52pm

re: #512 MandyManners

Time to step back.

Put some great music on..Let's Dance my friend

515 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:13:05pm

re: #511 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

What is wrong with someone making a lot of money?

Onefuckinghellofalot it that money was earned over many generations.

516 Bloodnok  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:13:34pm

re: #503 negativ

Ahh, I see. He's just Plain Common Folk, then.

No, he's just an ordinary wealthy politician. Not an endangered species, not proof of a grand eeevil master plan and far less than the Billion dollars claimed in the post to which she responded.

517 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:13:58pm

re: #510 JustJay

percentage percentage percentage. if you give 5% and someone else gives .1%, they don't get to call you greedy.

518 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:14:07pm

re: #507 ED 209

I have none per se. You will not find entries from me attacking atheism at all. I do stand up against unfair attacks of faith, religion and personal beliefs, including atheism and agnosticism. For me my faith assists my logic and reason. But please take note I am no evangelist by any measure.

519 solomonpanting  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:14:44pm

re: #496 NJDhockeyfan

Human rights abuses under Saddam:


Source

Sen. Edward Kennedy, D-Mass.:
"Shamefully, we now learn that Saddam's torture chambers reopened under new management: U.S. management."

Yeah, just like Saddam.

520 Charles Johnson  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:14:49pm

re: #487 lawhawk

Israel's operation to destroy the Osirak reactor was in 1981, not 1988.

You're right - sorry for the typo.

It was at the outset of the Iran-Iraq war, but the threat posed to Israel was all too clear from all the rhetoric coming from Saddam Hussein and pretty much all the other Arabs - death to Israel was the common theme. A nuclear Iraq - with missile tech or the capability to pass the weapon on to terrorist was an existential threat Israel had to deal with before the reactor went live.

And they did.

It was absolutely an existential threat to Israel, and that was clear to everyone at the time, even to the countries who helped Iraq build the reactor (hello, France). An "Arab bomb" had only one purpose at that time.

521 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:16:22pm

Good Evening LGF.

Iran said Wednesday it will enrich uranium to a higher level on its own, the latest indication the country was rejecting a UN-backed proposal aimed at thwarting any effort by Teheran to make material for a nuclear weapon.
"You should know that even if you sizzle (from impatience or desire to talk) ... the Iranian nation won't talk to you concerning the nuclear issue," he said

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

Dither dither dither dither dither dither...

522 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:16:36pm

Can't strike Iran. It's the same as Vietnam. Iran has Russian and French consultants on the ground.

523 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:17:17pm

Bedtime. Have to get some Nigerian customers on the phone early tomorrow. be good, all-

524 McSpiff  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:17:39pm

For the record, the order of my fears are Iran getting the bomb, Pakistan losing control of their nukes, followed by Arab nukes. Not trying to downplay the threat.

525 BryanS  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:17:52pm

re: #520 Charles

It was absolutely an existential threat to Israel, and that was clear to everyone at the time, even to the countries who helped Iraq build the reactor (hello, France). An "Arab bomb" had only one purpose at that time.

Iran's bomb has only one purpose as well--and everyone knows it (hello, Russia). Hmmm, what to do...?

526 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:19:31pm

re: #218 ED 209

If I read you right, prayer is delusional?

527 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:20:25pm

re: #502 darthstar

None of which were cited reasons for invading. Sure, Saddam was an asshole and I'm actually quite happy knowing he's dead. But what he did to his own people is irrelevant. Period.

Picture yourself as POTUS sitting in the White House.

Intelligence reports from Germany, France, China, and Russia tell you Iraq has WMDs. After 9-11 the Russians tell you they can confirm Saddam is planning terrorist attacks against the United states.

You are in charge of protecting the country. What do you do?

528 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:20:42pm

re: #482 HoosierHoops

It's cold tonight, going to 45...
LOL!
It's winter, it's supposed to be cold.

Hope Winston has a coat!

529 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:21:55pm

Pakistan is the enemy of India. We're playing both countries to meet our goals. Obama knows that. GE has nuclear contracts with both countries. Russia has contracts with Iran. We also have contracts with Russia.

530 swamprat  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:22:51pm

re: #522 Gus 802

Can't strike Iran. It's the same as Vietnam. Iran has Russian and French consultants on the ground.

Who is really giving Iran nuke tech?

/rhetorical

531 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:23:19pm

re: #530 swamprat

Who is really giving Iran nuke tech?

/rhetorical

Russia and France.

532 darthstar  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:23:35pm

re: #527 NJDhockeyfan

Picture yourself as POTUS sitting in the White House.

Intelligence reports from Germany, France, China, and Russia tell you Iraq has WMDs. After 9-11 the Russians tell you they can confirm Saddam is planning terrorist attacks against the United states.

You are in charge of protecting the country. What do you do?

I'd base my decisions on current reports...not reports that are outdated by several years. Obviously, we're going to disagree here. I believe bush intentionally lied to get us to go along with invading Iraq. You don't. Bottom line: bush got what he wanted. You win. Happy?

533 lostlakehiker  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:23:37pm

re: #234 Rightwingconspirator

Obviously it is a fine line how a president consults. If he gives too much credence to his Priest he becomes a tool of the church. Bad thing. If he gives too much credence to his Pentagon advisers he becomes tool of the military. Etc. So, it's on us to sort out who had good judgment and the nations best interests at heart and mind. Huck ain't it. Nor Palin, nor Pat Robertson. Who I'm going to like remains to be seen.

If an avowed atheist ran, I would be very interested to hear him discuss his moral foundation. It better be good.

One could hardly do better than to study the lives of good people and the writings to which they turned in moments of crisis. So, Lincoln, Bible. Jesus, Torah. Is there a pattern here? An atheist who thinks only atheists are great moral philosophers has by his own logic thrown out 99% of human endeavor, and is not going to arrive at good conclusions.

534 BryanS  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:23:42pm

re: #526 Rightwingconspirator

If I read you right, prayer is delusional?

It may be inpolite to say it out loud, but if you are a sincere atheist, what can you possibly think about obtaining guidance through prayer?

535 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:24:26pm

re: #532 darthstar

I'd base my decisions on current reports...not reports that are outdated by several years. Obviously, we're going to disagree here. I believe bush intentionally lied to get us to go along with invading Iraq. You don't. Bottom line: bush got what he wanted. You win. Happy?

They were current reports.

536 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:26:12pm

re: #535 NJDhockeyfan

They were current reports.

You go, NJDjhockeyfan.

537 Gus  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:26:28pm

Off to watch House. Good night.

538 Joanne  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:26:33pm

re: #534 BryanS

Meditation (inner prayer) is a good thing. Religious prayer, especially if someone wishes to force it on another, I'd take issue with that

539 ED 209  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:27:08pm

re: #515 MandyManners

Onefuckinghellofalot it that money was earned over many generations.

No comprende.

540 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:27:10pm

re: #532 darthstar

You go with the information at your disposal.

Armchair quarterbacking is fantastic when lives are not at stake.

541 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:27:37pm

re: #536 MandyManners

I've met him. He's dreamy!

542 swamprat  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:28:00pm

re: #531 Gus 802

Russia and France.

Where are the germans? We are supposed to have germans. What kind of axis of weasels can they have without the bloody germans. Friggin' groundhog day. I know history repeats itself, but can't it wait just a little tiny bit?

543 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:28:21pm

re: #539 ED 209

No comprende.

Grab a dictionary.

544 BryanS  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:28:37pm

re: #532 darthstar

I'd base my decisions on current reports...not reports that are outdated by several years. Obviously, we're going to disagree here. I believe bush intentionally lied to get us to go along with invading Iraq. You don't. Bottom line: bush got what he wanted. You win. Happy?

I don't think Bush lied or used "outdated reports". The problem as I understand it is the intelligence agencies got into group think without understanding that the evidence for the programs was largely based on a poor source. The agencies reinforced their belief by taking into account other friendly agencies' opinions. If Bush lied, he was quite adept at bringing along all the major intelligence agencies.

That said, no single agency had compelling evidence--only compelling beliefs. That, and Sadam's intentional acts designed to make his neighbors fear the possibility he had them.

545 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:28:42pm

re: #532 darthstar

I'd base my decisions on current reports...not reports that are outdated by several years. Obviously, we're going to disagree here. I believe bush intentionally lied to get us to go along with invading Iraq. You don't. Bottom line: bush got what he wanted. You win. Happy?

Got evidence?

546 elbarto  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:28:52pm

I hate Huckabee this is just another reason on a long list of reasons that he should never be POTUS.

547 MandyManners  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:29:31pm
Youtube Video
548 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:29:32pm

re: #546 elbarto

Hate is not a healthy emotion.

549 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:29:34pm

re: #534 BryanS

Perhaps. But then atheists have no more proof than the religious. Hence respect for one anothers view is polite, and essential to a tolerant society.

550 elbarto  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:30:10pm

548 It keeps me warm at night.

551 swamprat  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:31:44pm

re: #550 elbarto


get a sheep

552 BryanS  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:32:18pm

re: #549 Rightwingconspirator

Perhaps. But then atheists have no more proof than the religious. Hence respect for one anothers view is polite, and essential to a tolerant society.

No argument there.

553 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:33:00pm

re: #547 MandyManners

I'll see that, and raise ya!
The singer and the songwriter...

554 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:33:01pm

I feel a lot better tonight about Obama's Afghanistan speech than I did last night. He only said he would START to draw down after 18 months, so ther is plenty of room for the US to stay there for as long as it takes. I wonder how that will go down with his Dem base?

555 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:33:54pm

re: #548 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Hate is not a healthy emotion.

I second that emotion.

556 Joanne  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:34:02pm

re: #551 swamprat

Daa-aaa-aaa-dy. ;-)

557 Racer X  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:34:22pm

Clinton: Iraq has abused its last chance

From the Oval Office, President Clinton told the nation Wednesday evening why he ordered new military strikes against Iraq.

The president said Iraq's refusal to cooperate with U.N. weapons inspectors presented a threat to the entire world.

"Saddam (Hussein) must not be allowed to threaten his neighbors or the world with nuclear arms, poison gas or biological weapons," Clinton said.

Operation Desert Fox, a strong, sustained series of attacks, will be carried out over several days by U.S. and British forces, Clinton said.

"Earlier today I ordered America's armed forces to strike military and security targets in Iraq. They are joined by British forces," Clinton said.

"Their mission is to attack Iraq's nuclear, chemical and biological weapons programs and its military capacity to threaten its neighbors," said Clinton.

Clinton also stated that, while other countries also had weapons of mass destruction, Hussein is in a different category because he has used such weapons against his own people and against his neighbors.

Strikes necessary to stunt weapons programs

Clinton said he made the decision to strike Wednesday with the unanimous agreement of his security advisors.

Timing was important, said the president, because without a strong inspection system in place, Iraq could rebuild its chemical, biological and nuclear programs in a matter of months, not years.

"If Saddam can cripple the weapons inspections system and get away with it, he would conclude the international community, led by the United States, has simply lost its will," said Clinton. "He would surmise that he has free rein to rebuild his arsenal of destruction."

Clinton also called Hussein a threat to his people and to the security of the world.

"The best way to end that threat once and for all is with a new Iraqi government -- a government ready to live in peace with its neighbors, a government that respects the rights of its people," Clinton said.

Such a change in Baghdad would take time and effort, Clinton said, adding that his administration would work with Iraqi opposition forces.

558 BryanS  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:34:46pm

re: #554 Spare O'Lake

I feel a lot better tonight about Obama's Afghanistan speech than I did last night. He only said he would START to draw down after 18 months, so ther is plenty of room for the US to stay there for as long as it takes. I wonder how that will go down with his Dem base?

It won't go down with the left. Obama probably knows he'll be dealing with Republicans in at least one house by then anyway. The Democrats know that as well.

559 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:35:52pm

re: #544 BryanS

If Bush lied, he was quite adept at bringing along all the major intelligence agencies.

Not only that he was able to place bombs inside the WTC, schedule a missile strike on the Pentagon, and steer a Cat 5 hurricane toward the poor section of New Orleans.

560 BryanS  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:38:31pm

re: #559 NJDhockeyfan

Not only that he was able to place bombs inside the WTC, schedule a missile strike on the Pentagon, and steer a Cat 5 hurricane toward the poor section of New Orleans.

Yep. Listening to the wacko left, Bush was the most unintelligent maniacal genius ever to be the president of the US.

561 ghazidor  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:39:54pm

re: #559 NJDhockeyfan

Not only that he was able to place bombs inside the WTC, schedule a missile strike on the Pentagon, and steer a Cat 5 hurricane toward the poor section of New Orleans.

He hav teh awsum powars!

/

562 Racer X  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:39:56pm

I'm amazed at how many people still have no clue what was going on in Iraq in the ten years prior to 2003.

No fucking clue at all.

563 ED 209  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:40:16pm

re: #518 Rightwingconspirator

I have none per se. You will not find entries from me attacking atheism at all. I do stand up against unfair attacks of faith, religion and personal beliefs, including atheism and agnosticism. For me my faith assists my logic and reason. But please take note I am no evangelist by any measure.

"If an avowed atheist ran, I would be very interested to hear him discuss his moral foundation. It better be good."
I find this to be an attack on atheism. A casual one to be sure, but of a type typical of religiosos.

It's notable that for many who have a belief in god he thinks just like them.

564 Bagua  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:40:56pm

They don't need knowledge:

Bush Derangement Syndrome answers all questions.

565 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:42:51pm

re: #511 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

What is wrong with someone making a lot of money?

I don't know. Perhaps there is something, perhaps there isn't. I don't think I implied that there is something inherently wrong with making a lot of money. I wasn't trying necessarily to do so.


(not specifically talking about Dick Cheney here)
However, let's not pretend that money does not equal power.

We all need and want basic survival. We achieve survival by expending the resources we have at our disposal. Most of us humans have to do something in order to acquire those resources. This is the risk vs. reward calculation we all make unconsciously, all the time. You risk dying horribly during your commute to work tomorrow, but you accept that risk willingly because (hopefully) you enjoy your job to some degree, and don't find it too high a price to pay in exchange for your continued survival.

People who are very rich do not participate in this game. A person who can look at their bank balance and see a number in excess of 7 figures lives in an entirely different reality.

If you're a vastly rich sport star, you can nearly decapitate your wife and install lots of aftermarket ventilation in her alleged lover and expect to live as long as you're able. But if your broke-ass nephew happens to be in the back seat of the car when the driver decides to shoot the cop that pulled them over, he can and probably will be executed for felony murder, even though he neither made the decision nor pulled the trigger.

Not saying who deserved what, but just pointing out that the difference in outcomes relies solely on the amount of cashflow involved.

Don't take my word for it; use the goooglez.

Everyone has a price, and at some point everyone can be bought off. Wealth is not "bad" in and of itself, but it's a mistake to think that it's irrelevant.

566 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:42:56pm

re: #560 BryanS

Yep. Listening to the wacko left, Bush was the most unintelligent maniacal genius ever to be the president of the US.

/and Dick Cheney eats babies.

567 ED 209  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:44:03pm

re: #526 Rightwingconspirator

If I read you right, prayer is delusional?

Delusional in what it purports to invoke, i.e. guidance from god. I believe you covered it's actual benefits adequately.

568 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:45:27pm
Youtube Video
re: #567 ED 209

Delusional in what it purports to invoke, i.e. guidance from god. I believe you covered it's actual benefits adequately.

Is hope delusional?

569 swamprat  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:47:18pm

We represent a consortium of international businessmen
(excuse me but I hear screaming)
And we were wondering if you would
(I think the blood from the closet is seeping just a bit too close. Let's move over here)
Anyway, we have a fine product that can produce limitless electricity, and incidentally kill every man woman and child for miles in every direction
(Please let me wipe the drool, and I think that lip-less, armless, one-eyed man is trying to sneak out of your window)
It's not really legal, but if you'll just sign here and here and here,... We can have you holding the unlimited power that you so desperately need...for the sake of your country, of course.

Laughter follows, but not from me.

570 Bagua  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:48:38pm

re: #532 darthstar

I'd base my decisions on current reports...not reports that are outdated by several years. Obviously, we're going to disagree here. I believe bush intentionally lied to get us to go along with invading Iraq. You don't. Bottom line: bush got what he wanted. You win. Happy?

What an outrageous and baseless accusation. Do you also believe in the Tooth Fairy?

571 BruceKelly  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:49:13pm

re: #566 NJDhockeyfan

/and Dick Cheney eats babies.

mmm... babies...

572 ED 209  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:50:45pm

re: #549 Rightwingconspirator

Perhaps. But then atheists have no more proof than the religious. Hence respect for one anothers view is polite, and essential to a tolerant society.

Atheists aren't trying to prove anything. It's the religious who are proposing an all-powerful entity without any proof.

573 ghazidor  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:50:57pm

re: #564 Bagua

They don't need knowledge:

Bush Derangement Syndrome answers all questions.

I have seen posts where Bush was called an "diabolically evil genius" and as "dumb as a bag of hammers" within the same paragraph. The level of cognitive dissonance achieved by BDS can be truly astounding.

/of course the same came now be said about some ODS posts too. :)

574 Silvergirl  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:51:06pm

re: #287 Charles

He's bailing now because he stuck his finger into the political wind and saw that it was blowing Huckabee into the political ditch.

He didn't bail before this because Huckabee was at the top of a lot of GOP polls.

But, you know, he prayed about it. Uh huh. Right. What he really did was calculate the political odds, and God told him Huckabee was in big trouble over this.

Pretty calculating for a guy who "didn't major in math, but majored in miracles." When he refused to drop out of the race because he hated Romney even though there was no possible way he'd win, that was his clever line that induced vomiting every time it was repeated.

The guy's jailhouse conversion was apparently one of the miracles Huckabee majored in. Maybe he better change his major.

575 Bagua  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:52:32pm

re: #573 ausador

Yep, welcome to the new crazy, same as the old crazy.

576 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:55:03pm

re: #563 ED 209

I'll clear that up. I will hold the moral underpinnings of any candidate to scrutiny. It better be good regardless of their affiliation. A President that considered prayer to be delusional would not be a viable candidate for my vote.
Took me a bit to read your link.
In answer to what a single study claims religious folks say God believes-Of course a very human assumption is that many other people think like they do. Apart from friends and family, they have exactly as much evidence as the religious to say what somebody (person or god) else thinks. That study is defining the projection range of ego not god or belief systems.

577 ED 209  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:57:10pm

re: #568 Spare O'Lake




Is hope delusional?

Yes, the pope is delusional. Ooops, I mean, hope for what? And how is it relevant to the point at hand?

578 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:58:28pm

re: #567 ED 209

Okay thanks.

re: #572 ED 209
That would be evangelicals. A subset of the religious. There is a lot more out there than Baptists. You probably never got hit up by a Rabbi to convert. or a Buddhist.

579 darthstar  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 8:58:49pm

re: #545 Dark_Falcon

Got evidence?

Nope. But what I believe is irrelevant. bush is retired, and President Obama owns the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan now. Such is life.

580 Bagua  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 9:00:16pm

re: #579 darthstar

Nope. But what I believe is irrelevant. bush is retired, and President Obama owns the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan now. Such is life.

Then keep your baseless slander to yourself. No one is interested in this garbage.

581 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 9:01:09pm

re: #579 darthstar

what I believe is irrelevant.

I finally agree with you!

582 darthstar  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 9:04:13pm

re: #580 Bagua

Then keep your baseless slander to yourself. No one is interested in this garbage.

Gotcha...I'm new here...didn't realise bush was a sacred cow. I'll avoid commenting on him going forward.

583 ghazidor  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 9:05:38pm

re: #572 ED 209

Atheists aren't trying to prove anything. It's the religious who are proposing an all-powerful entity without any proof.

Well, that isn't entirely true, atheism is defined as the denial of any God.

Main Entry: athe·ism
Pronunciation: ˈā-thē-ˌi-zəm
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French athéisme, from athée atheist, from Greek atheos godless, from a- + theos god
Date: 1546
1 archaic : ungodliness, wickedness
2 a : a disbelief in the existence of deity b : the doctrine that there is no deity

Isn't claiming that there is no God without any evidence that there really isn't as "irrational" as claiming that there is one? Maybe that is why less than 1.6% of the population actually claim to be atheists?

Most people just say that they are agnostic or have no particular faith. I have noticed that quite a few people who label themselves as atheists are hostile towards religion (not all). I suppose it goes with the territory when according to your beliefs you assume that all those with other faiths or beliefs are delusional.

584 ED 209  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 9:06:01pm

re: #572 ED 209
That would be evangelicals. A subset of the religious. There is a lot more out there than Baptists. You probably never got hit up by a Rabbi to convert. or a Buddhist.

To clarify my point, those making any supernatural/metaphysical claims bear the burden of proof.

585 Racer X  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 9:07:26pm

re: #582 darthstar

Gotcha...I'm new here...didn't realise bush was a sacred cow. I'll avoid commenting on him going forward.

Bush is not a sacred cow - hell I've kicked him many times.

You know what is a sacred cow? Reality. Find some.

Oh - and welcome!

586 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 9:08:51pm

re: #572 ED 209

I'm off to bed, it's been interesting. Last note I forgot to include- I had no intention of disrespecting atheism. If I did my apologies. Oh and glad to thrash this through without rancor. I imagine we'll chat again.

587 darthstar  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 9:09:00pm

re: #585 Racer X

Thanks.

588 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 9:10:41pm

re: #577 ED 209

Yes, the pope is delusional. Ooops, I mean, hope for what? And how is it relevant to the point at hand?

Hope for health, happiness, good fortune, success. Now answer the question and then I'll explain the relevance.

589 BryanS  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 9:11:30pm

re: #583 ausador

Isn't claiming that there is no God without any evidence that there really isn't as "irrational" as claiming that there is one? Maybe that is why less than 1.6% of the population actually claim to be atheists?

Most people just say that they are agnostic or have no particular faith. I have noticed that quite a few people who label themselves as atheists are hostile towards religion (not all). I suppose it goes with the territory when according to your beliefs you assume that all those with other faiths or beliefs are delusional.

Nope. It is irrational to believe in something that there is no evidence for.

This argument naturally leads to the Dawkinsian (heh, that a word ?) argument that we do not believe in any number of ridiculous things simply because there is no proof it doesn't exist. Do you believe in the tooth fairy? Why do you believe in your god and not another religions' god? You have as much proof as they do.

590 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 9:12:06pm

re: #568 Spare O'Lake

[Video]Is hope delusional?

What do such authoritative sources as Daniel Pearl, Jack Hensley, Eugene Armstrong, Nick Berg, Georges Malbrunot, etc. think about the virtue of "hope"?

591 ED 209  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 9:14:22pm

re: #589 BryanS

I'd upding you if I could, but I'm still short of comments. (made a dent in it tonight though. )

592 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 9:16:34pm

re: #583 ausador

Isn't claiming that there is no God without any evidence that there really isn't as "irrational" as claiming that there is one? Maybe that is why less than 1.6% of the population actually claim to be atheists?

Most people just say that they are agnostic or have no particular faith. I have noticed that quite a few people who label themselves as atheists are hostile towards religion (not all). I suppose it goes with the territory when according to your beliefs you assume that all those with other faiths or beliefs are delusional.

Isn't claiming that there is no Poseidon without any evidence that there really isn't as "irrational" as claiming that there is one? Maybe that is why less than 1.6% of the population actually claim to be a-Poseidonists?

Most people just say that they are agnostic or have no particular faith with regard to Poseidon. I have noticed that quite a few people who label themselves as atheists or a-Poseidonists are hostile towards religion (not all). I suppose it goes with the territory when according to your beliefs you assume that all those with other faiths or beliefs are delusional.

593 BruceKelly  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 9:16:35pm

I hate to do this being new here and everything ( really do) but I turned my email domain into website a few years ago because of this missing WMD issue. I had a couple of siblings and a few friends in Iraq at the time.

Here's what I think happened...

William Gertz - Where's the WMD?

Here's a little backup story from Ynetnews...

Dozens dead in Syrian chemical weapons experiment

Here's the complete United Nations Special Commission (UNSCOM) timeline. It looks long and boring but it's really a pretty good read.

WMD - United Nations Special Commission

I apologize for dropping links to my own site but this was the reason for site.

594 Stuart Leviton  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 9:18:59pm

re: #449 MandyMannersI am glad that Saddam Hussein is gone, but isn't displaying Saddam Hussein's hanging tasteless? Especially knowing that the execution party battered his body afterwords.

595 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 9:20:57pm

re: #590 negativ

What do such authoritative sources as Daniel Pearl, Jack Hensley, Eugene Armstrong, Nick Berg, Georges Malbrunot, etc. think about the virtue of "hope"?

Hope springs eternal. It is a universal coping mechanism.
Do you know any functional person who is utterly without hope?

596 ghazidor  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 9:24:53pm

re: #589 BryanS

Why do I need any proof? Sure if your someone who believes that God is constantly meddling in the affairs of men and changing reality to help or protect his people then you need boat loads of proof. I personally have none of those beliefs, I expect no favoritism or miracles from on high. My life will play out without being altered in any way by any overt act of a higher power. I believe that we were not lied to when told that we had free will to do as we choose.

Either you have faith in the unseen and unprovable or you do not, within the realm of my belief there will never be any proof nor do I require any. If you believe there to be no God then more power to you, but that is also something that cannot be proven, and you say that you require no proof either.

Sounds as though our positions are more similar than you want to admit.

597 BryanS  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 9:26:53pm

re: #596 ausador

Why do I need any proof? Sure if your someone who believes that God is constantly meddling in the affairs of men and changing reality to help or protect his people then you need boat loads of proof. I personally have none of those beliefs, I expect no favoritism or miracles from on high. My life will play out without being altered in any way by any overt act of a higher power. I believe that we were not lied to when told that we had free will to do as we choose.

Either you have faith in the unseen and unprovable or you do not, within the realm of my belief there will never be any proof nor do I require any. If you believe there to be no God then more power to you, but that is also something that cannot be proven, and you say that you require no proof either.

Sounds as though our positions are more similar than you want to admit.

You don't have to have proof to have faith--faith is by definition a belief without proof. But having faith is also irrational.

599 ED 209  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 9:40:55pm

re: #596 ausador

If your god doesn't do anything, what's the point of believing in it? I see faith as another word for 'without logic and reason'. Without logic and reason anyone's wild claims are just as valid as anyone else's claims, faith is useless in public discourse. And while I know there are 'positive atheists' who outright declare there is no god, most atheists I've come across just claim there is no compelling proof of any god. Just as there is no proof of the tooth fairy. Should I behave as if there is a tooth fairy just in case?

600 Stuart Leviton  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 9:44:07pm

re: #547 MandyMannersThat is cool Mandy how you said you'd pull back and did. Great sense of self-control (and fairness).

601 BruceKelly  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 10:07:26pm

re: #598 NJDhockeyfan

Yeow, thanks for the links. I'll be adding them to my Saddam and WMD archive. People forget that we (Americans) didn't just arbitrarily decide that Saddam had WMD. Saddam's history of creating and using chemical and possibly biological weapons goes back to the late 70's.

602 SixDegrees  Wed, Dec 2, 2009 11:14:13pm

re: #186 Charles

Well, I just did a phone interview with the "Young Turks" radio show on Sirius XM and learned again why I'm neither a lefty nor a righty -- the far left is every bit as dogmatic and crazy as the far right. What a dick.

I look forward to a posting on this.

603 [deleted]  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 4:49:02am
604 Slap  Thu, Dec 3, 2009 9:22:05am

re: #583 ausador

I have noticed that quite a few people who label themselves as atheists are hostile towards religion (not all). I suppose it goes with the territory when according to your beliefs you assume that all those with other faiths or beliefs are delusional.

I'm one of those agnostic types that's awed by the breadth and complexity of the universe and its endless mysteries. A definition I once read described the generality of my particular belief fairly well: that the nature of god is both unknown and unknowable. In the face of such a vastness of incomprehensible beauty, I find it difficult to cast aspersions on which poetry of belief makes the most sense to another. (Provided they don't expect me to agree and "just go along".) Nor can I rationally entirely reject the concept of a creator. Darn those mysteries!

But to your quote: I've known a number of self-described atheists, and my take on the hostility is that, though your take is correct for some, it stems as much from resentment at the condescension, intolerance and outright hatred directed at them from many who identify as "religious". A perfect couple of examples (there was another in Tampa recently, as well):

[Link: www.wcpo.com...]

[Link: www.newschannel5.com...]

When one lives in a world where a majority of your neighbors think it's terrible that anyone even know of the existence of people who disbelieve, I find it easy to understand how resentment at such isolation could turn into hatred of what they perceive as delusional.

I'm an opponent of such ostracism and intolerance from either side. But I can understand how it develops.


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