New Protests in Iran

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Another round of massive protests has broken out in Iran today; this video shows a crowd fighting back against the Iranian Baseej, the thugs and enforcers of the mullahs. Some Iranian sites are reporting up to 12 protesters killed by the thugs so far.

Youtube Video

UPDATE at 12/27/09 10:30:34 am:

Andrew Sullivan has excellent coverage of the protests, and more video.

UPDATE at 12/27/09 10:52:35 am:

A photo posted at Twitter shows protesters beating the Baseej with their own batons:

UPDATE at 12/27/09 11:02:14 am:

Protesters stop a police van, trash it, and pull the policeman out of the window:

Youtube Video

UPDATE at 12/27/09 11:09:54 am:

Tehran Live has lots of photos.

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190 comments
1 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:28:16am

May Almighty God bless and protect the protesters. May he crown the arms with victory, and thus bring an end to the tyranny and oppression of the Mullahcracy.

Amen.

2 Copernic  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:29:11am

Nice catch CJ. Andrew Sullivan is also doing a nice job of live blogging the continual uprising.

[Link: andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com...]

Imagine a more secular Iran. Breathtaking.

3 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:29:47am

Basij beaten with his own baton

4 reine.de.tout  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:30:35am

Just posted this in previous thread:

Ashura coverage and links to videos here


Eyewitness reports

Source: Tehran Bureau

Male, 22, university student:

"The Conquest of Valiasr Square"

A large throng had convened near Valiasr Square at about 1 pm, which was blockaded by police. Lines of black-clad Special Guards guarded the square. What happened next was something I had never seen.

People broke off slabs from the sidewalk and smashed them to smaller pieces -- they threw these stones at the Guards. The crowd -- a few thousand people, with a few hundred in the front line -- had gone into guerrilla mode. They were fearless and fearsome: not only did not back down but went on the offensive. The sky looked like a hailstorm of stones. The Guards had taken refuge under their shields; for some reason, they did not fire tear gas at us. After about 20 minutes of this, the Guards retreated and left on their bikes. The crowd was elated; we felt we had 'conquered' Valiasr Square.

We poured into the square. The ground was littered with stones and a few broken helmets, like a battlefield. People set a police canister on fire. The atmosphere was very jubilant.

Suddenly, people began yelling "Run! Go!" and a stampede commenced as the crowd began running. I ran up Valiasr Avenue; after ten or so minutes some of us ventured back out to the square to see what had happened.

I saw a distraught crowd gathered around something. Wails of "They killed him!" "Savages!" filled the air, as well as chants of "I will kill whoever kills my brother." Based on what I heard from people, an anti-riot SUV had entered the square, moving at high speed, and ran over several people who were running away, apparently injuring some and killing or severely wounding one person.

I went forward in time to see people carrying a limp body, but I could not tell if he was dead or unconscious, and I don't know if people took him to the hospital or not.

I left soon after that event, at about 2 p.m.

5 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:31:30am

re: #3 Killgore Trout

Another pic from the same confrontation.

6 Copernic  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:32:52am

re: #2 Copernic


Oh, wait. You had that. Nevermind.

7 Four More Tears  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:33:31am

I think we're seeing that blood Jefferson was talking about.

8 Gang of One  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:34:41am

I fear that the mad mullahs will be just as vicious, if not more so, than last summer.
Godspeed to those seeking liberty.

9 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:37:30am

re: #7 JasonA

I think we're seeing that blood Jefferson was talking about.

Indeed we are. This is what revolution really looks like and it is ugly. To return to a favorite quote:

"You think war is all glory. I know that war is all Hell."

- General William Tecumseh Sherman

10 Honorary Consul General  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:39:16am

A free Iran changes everything, IMO.

11 Gang of One  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:40:59am

What will our President say about all this? Will he encourage hope and change ... in Iran?

12 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:41:04am

re: #10 Cannadian Club Akbar

A free Iran changes everything, IMO.

It would change a lot of things but not everything. It certainly would solve a lot of problems.

13 prairiefire  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:41:09am

God's speed to the freedom fighters. I think that GWB's speech about all peoples' yearning to be free sticks in my mind as the most positive of his 8 years.
Revolutions always make me nervous. Praying for the people's protection from carnage.

14 Four More Tears  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:41:12am

re: #10 Cannadian Club Akbar

A free Iran changes everything, IMO.

Maybe. I think at the very least it would scare some other Middle Eastern regimes.

I'm lookin' at you, House of Saud...

15 prairiefire  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:41:57am

re: #14 JasonA

Maybe. I think at the very least it would scare some other Middle Eastern regimes.

I'm lookin' at you, House of Saud...

The House of Saud is a crooked house.

16 Gang of One  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:42:07am

Would this be the time for Israel to strike?

17 reine.de.tout  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:42:31am

Some background on Ashura:


[ overview ] December 18 marked the beginning of the month of Moharram. Shiites, and in particular Iranians, have been mourning the killing of their third Imam, Hossein, the quintessential martyr, since his death in the battle of Karbala on October 10, 680, which falls on Ashura, the 10th day of Moharram. Ashura has been commemorated for at least a thousand years, beginning probably in Baghdad, Iraq, in the 4th Islamic century. Tradition holds that Imam Hossein and 72 of his followers were slain on that day after fighting bravely with the much larger army of the Umayyad Caliph, Yazid ibn Moaaviyeh, which some historians have said was 100,000 men strong.

The death of Imam Hossein, his friends, followers and members of his family by a Sunni Caliph is perhaps the main reason that Shiism is considered a rebellious sect in Islam. Because the Shiites have been a minority throughout the history of Islam, they have transformed the historical battle of Karbala to symbolize ideological confrontation with the ruling elite, and have used a powerful combination of actual events and legend to stir up great emotion; it has been an occasion to complain bitterly about their marginalization in much of the Islamic world and to demand their rights. They invoke Imam Hossein's famous quote that, "Every day is Ashura, and every land is Karbala."

In a sense, the battle still rages on. . . .

This year promises to be no different. The Green Movement has vowed to use the day of Ashura -- Sunday, December 28 -- to stage peaceful demonstrations and showcase its strength. Given that the color green has a special meaning in Islam, and that Imam Hossein, an underdog in the Karbala battle, is considered a symbol of resistance against oppressors and absolute power, the demonstrations, if they materialize, will be hugely significant. As fate would have, the Islamic mourning ceremonies marking the 7th day of the passing of Grand Ayatollah Hossein Ali Montazeri will also fall on Ashura, which will likely fuel the intensity, as it will be rich in symbolism and can resonate politically throughout the country.

This would not be the first time that the powerful mix of imagery, symbolism, events and legend is used to advance a political agenda. It has happened twice over the past half century, each time with great consequence.
. . .

18 dugmartsch  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:42:51am

re: #11 Gang of One

What will our President say about all this? Will he encourage hope and change ... in Iran?

An American President encouraging change in Iran is likely to produce the opposite result. Better for him to keep his mouth shut.

19 Four More Tears  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:42:52am

re: #16 Gang of One

Would this be the time for Israel to strike?

Probably the worst time if you want the revolution to go well.

20 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:43:06am

re: #12 Killgore Trout

It would change a lot of things but not everything. It certainly would solve a lot of problems.

It would make things much easier for Iraq. It would also cost Hezbollah their patron and deprive Hamas of a major arms supplier. It would quickly make the Middle East a place where the good guys had a better chance.

21 Honorary Consul General  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:43:08am

re: #16 Gang of One

Would this be the time for Israel to strike?

I would rather watch it change from within.

22 The Curmudgeon  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:44:01am

And what will be Obama's position? Read Hamlet's soliloquy. "Thus conscience does make cowards of us all."

23 Semper Fi  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:44:09am

re: #16 Gang of One

Would this be the time for Israel to strike?

Need to see how these events play out.

24 SteveC  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:44:21am

re: #3 Killgore Trout

Basij beaten with his own baton

According to that photo and Sullivan's blog, the people aren't showing any fear and are taking the authorities on directly. This whole situation has changed.

The people in charge have no choice but to hit back, and harder. This could easily go off the rails.

25 Right Handed Neutrino  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:44:41am

re: #18 dugmartsch

I think you raise a good point. It's not at all obvious to me what role the United States should be playing in this, if any.

26 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:45:18am

re: #19 JasonA

Probably the worst time if you want the revolution to go well.

Concur. We might be able to take some actions, but anything Israel does would simply give the government strength. From Israel's standpoint a free Iran is the best possible outcome. The threat goes away and they have a semi-friend instead of an enemy.

27 Honorary Consul General  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:45:52am

re: #25 Right Handed Neutrino

I think you raise a good point. It's not at all obvious to me what role the United States should be playing in this, if any.

I'm betting we are playing a role. Just covertly.

28 dugmartsch  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:46:07am

re: #25 Right Handed Neutrino

I think you raise a good point. It's not at all obvious to me what role the United States should be playing in this, if any.

None. Pretend we don't know anything is happening, that we might look at it too hard and see it disappear. Like the Perfectlynormal Beast.

29 prairiefire  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:46:54am

re: #27 Cannadian Club Akbar

Agreed.

30 CapeCoddah  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:47:06am

re: #3 Killgore Trout

Basij beaten with his own baton

The cowards run when the tables are turned, Hmm?

31 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:47:26am

re: #24 SteveC

This doesn't look like the endgame yet. I suspect these protests are going to pop up and die down over the next few years. It will keep simmering for a while longer. I don't think they have the strength yet to oust the mullahs.

32 Gang of One  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:47:32am

I am not hoping for Israel to strike, don't misread me. I saw some news about Netanyahu looking to get Livni and others to join a coalition. I was wondering if this was somehow going to put Israel in a position to deal with Iran's nuclear ambitions.

33 nogendavid  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:48:13am

If the reformers succeed, it will be no thanks to the Western media like CNN, who dumped the story the second they learned of the death of Michael Jackson.

Would change everything. The Adjmadinejad regime is striving for nuclear weapons and sponsors Hezbollah and Hamas and props up Syria If Teheran goes moderate, Lebanon go resume its democratic course, Syria and Israel might make peace, and there might be stability in Israeli-Palestinian relations and eventually a two state solution. Highest stakes game in the world right no.

34 Four More Tears  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:48:17am

re: #26 Dark_Falcon

Eh. Yeah, a free Iran is better than what's there now, but it doesn't automatically shatter generations of anti-semitism.

35 reine.de.tout  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:48:17am

re: #24 SteveC

According to that photo and Sullivan's blog, the people aren't showing any fear and are taking the authorities on directly. This whole situation has changed.

The people in charge have no choice but to hit back, and harder. This could easily go off the rails.

Yes, this seems to me to be a bit different than the previous demonstrations, for the reason you stated, there doesn't seem to be much fear.

36 Digital Display  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:49:41am

re: #31 Killgore Trout

This doesn't look like the endgame yet. I suspect these protests are going to pop up and die down over the next few years. It will keep simmering for a while longer. I don't think they have the strength yet to oust the mullahs.


So true KT
Gov't= weapons
Protesters= Cell Phones
Mullahs aren't too worried right now...

37 CapeCoddah  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:50:21am

re: #24 SteveC

According to that photo and Sullivan's blog, the people aren't showing any fear and are taking the authorities on directly. This whole situation has changed.

The people in charge have no choice but to hit back, and harder. This could easily go off the rails.

If the people are to win their freedom, it will have to get a hell of a lot worse before it gets any better. Freedom is not won easily.

38 solomonpanting  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:51:04am

re: #20 Dark_Falcon

It would make things much easier for Iraq. It would also cost Hezbollah their patron and deprive Hamas of a major arms supplier. It would quickly make the Middle East a place where the good guys had a better chance.

It would certainly be a major blow to Hamas, coupled with Egypt's building a steel wall to curtail use of tunnels between Gaza and Egypt.
Two things:
Hezbollah admits the arms smuggling via the tunnels:

Egypt is trying 26 men suspected of links with Hezbollah and accused of planning attacks inside the country. Hezbollah denies they had plans for attacks inside Egypt and says one of the men is a Hezbollah member and that he and up to 10 others were trying to supply military equipment to Hamas-run Gaza.

The other is the world's silence that Egypt is building a wall, rather than Israel.

39 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:51:54am

re: #36 HoosierHoops

So true KT
Gov't= weapons
Protesters= Cell Phones
Mullahs aren't too worried right now...

Then the protesters need to focus on obtaining as many police weapons as then can. The mullahs are going to strike back hard on this one and they need to prepare to parry the blow.

40 Gang of One  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:51:57am

re: #21 Cannadian Club Akbar

I would rather watch it change from within.

I agree. But is silence really in the best interest?

41 Right Handed Neutrino  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:52:21am

re: #28 dugmartsch

But it might eventually come to a point where US support, even if only symbolical, could give legitimacy to the protests and to a hypothetical new government, wouldn't it? At that point I would assume it would be a good idea for the US, and for the international community, to give that support.

42 CapeCoddah  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:52:34am

re: #36 HoosierHoops

So true KT
Gov't= weapons
Protesters= Cell Phones
Mullahs aren't too worried right now...

There is a reason for the old saying... "The pen (or n this case the cell phone) is mightier than the sword"

43 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:53:09am

re: #38 solomonpanting

The other is the world's silence that Egypt is building a wall, rather than Israel.

Egypt is allowed.

//

44 Baier  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:53:16am

re: #28 dugmartsch

None. Pretend we don't know anything is happening, that we might look at it too hard and see it disappear. Like the Perfectlynormal Beast.

I strongly disagree with you. There is nothing wrong with speaking out against oppression. It is the right and brave thing to do. Being silent is cowardice. I highly doubt a revolution in Iran would fail because our government vocally supports human rights and tolerant societies.

45 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:53:23am

re: #38 solomonpanting

The other is the world's silence that Egypt is building a wall, rather than Israel.

The world's hypocrisy relating to Israel is an old story. I'm just glad the wall is being built. It is badly needed and will save lives.

46 dugmartsch  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:53:30am

re: #27 Cannadian Club Akbar

I'm betting we are playing a role. Just covertly.

What covert role can we play? If a revolution in Iran is going to succeed it'll be because of an overwhelming spontaneous opposition of its citizenry.

Not sure how we can play any part in that, not being citizens.

47 Honorary Consul General  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:53:37am

re: #40 Gang of One

I agree. But is silence really in the best interest?

I still believe we are there. Just not hearing about it.

48 Interesting Times  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:54:10am

re: #33 nogendavid

If the reformers succeed, it will be no thanks to the Western media like CNN, who dumped the story the second they learned of the death of Michael Jackson.

Queen Rania seems to have had the same thought:


For weeks they dominated traditional media. Headlines were fuelled in part by the enormous online explosion. Countless retweets, videos, up-to-the-second news from the streets of Tehran.

And then… Michael Jackson died.

Suddenly, we were all atwitter about the loss of a music legend and Iran was no longer trendy nor trending.

Could this give nefarious regimes ideas for wag-the-dog distraction while they do something horrible? Madonna better watch her back! ///

49 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:54:49am

These people are SCREAMING for what their Iraqi neighbors now have. The difference is, save the Kurds in the north, the Iraqis by and large never had this open and widespread protests against Saddam as the Iranians are mounting against the Mullahs

50 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:55:16am

re: #39 Dark_Falcon

Then the protesters need to focus on obtaining as many police weapons as then can. The mullahs are going to strike back hard on this one and they need to prepare to parry the blow.

I think what needs to happen is significant defections in the military. Even if the police side with the protesters they could easily be crushed. It's going to take a general or two to flip sides. Until then there just won't be enough firepower. I suppose there could be a political collapse if enough of the mullahs decide to dissolve the current government but I suspect that's pretty unlikely.

51 Baier  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:55:21am

re: #41 Right Handed Neutrino

But it might eventually come to a point where US support, even if only symbolical, could give legitimacy to the protests and to a hypothetical new government, wouldn't it? At that point I would assume it would be a good idea for the US, and for the international community, to give that support.

I can't believe people are even arguing whether or not the US should outwardly support a counter totalitarian movement.

52 CapeCoddah  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:56:10am

re: #50 Killgore Trout

I think what needs to happen is significant defections in the military. Even if the police side with the protesters they could easily be crushed. It's going to take a general or two to flip sides. Until then there just won't be enough firepower. I suppose there could be a political collapse if enough of the mullahs decide to dissolve the current government but I suspect that's pretty unlikely.

Murderous dictators do not go quietly into the night...

53 reine.de.tout  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:56:33am

Some eyewitness accounts here at Tehran Bureau.

54 Four More Tears  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:56:52am

re: #52 CapeCoddah

Murderous dictators do not go quietly into the night...

No, they just retire to Saudi Arabia.

55 Gang of One  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:57:01am

re: #46 dugmartsch

What covert role can we play? If a revolution in Iran is going to succeed it'll be because of an overwhelming spontaneous opposition of its citizenry.

Not sure how we can play any part in that, not being citizens.

Support them in spirit. Let them know we are pulling for them.

56 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:57:18am

re: #52 CapeCoddah

Murderous dictators do not go quietly into the night...

Saddam went quietly into a spider hole
Whacky Kaddafi was pretty quiet for years after Reagan said HELLO!!!

57 2senseplain  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:57:53am

re: #51 Baier

More from the point of view that supporting it might give it the "kiss of death" than that anyone doesn't want them to succeed. Tactics.

58 CapeCoddah  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:57:55am

re: #54 JasonA

That bastard is roasting in the deepest pits of hell as we speak.

59 Right Handed Neutrino  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:58:03am

re: #51 Baier

The point is that outwardly supporting it might actually harm the cause of the protesters; I can easily imagine the Iranian government using it as propaganda, arguing that the protests are actually the work of a foreign enemy, or something like that.

60 jayzee  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:58:37am

re: #21 Cannadian Club Akbar

I would rather watch it change from within.

I don't believe it will change from within (at least without help). How did China change after Tiananmen Square? Ruthless, evil regimes, do not change because of this. They clamp down and kill the opposition. Moussavi is also not a very good guy.

Perhaps foreign agitators are stirring things up and lining up some political alternatives, but as a populist movement, totally Iranian, I don't have much hope for this or believe there will be any significant change as a result.

61 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:58:54am

Lots of reports on twitter that access to the internet in Iran is being shut down.

62 Four More Tears  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:59:21am

re: #58 CapeCoddah

Heh. As an atheist I have to disagree, but it's good to see him held in such low regard. :)

63 SteveC  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 10:59:25am

re: #48 publicityStunted

Could this give nefarious regimes ideas for wag-the-dog distraction while they do something horrible? Madonna better watch her back! ///

I don't loose any sleep over Michael Jackson. Should I be worried about Madonna?

*Shakes Magic 8-ball*

8-ball reply: My reply is no!

64 CapeCoddah  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:00:26am

re: #56 sattv4u2

Saddam went quietly into a spider hole
Whacky Kaddafi was pretty quiet for years after Reagan said HELLO!!!

LOL, Saddam crawled off in an attempt to save his cowardly, murderous hide. How did that work out for him?
Reagan brought Kaddafi to his knees, sans political correctness. Kaddafi kept drawing a line in the sand, and Reagan kept kicking his sandy ass over the line.

65 prairiefire  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:01:03am

re: #46 dugmartsch

What covert role can we play? If a revolution in Iran is going to succeed it'll be because of an overwhelming spontaneous opposition of its citizenry.

Not sure how we can play any part in that, not being citizens.

We could infiltrate the military through people sympathetic to secular reform. I'm not sure if it would be many people from America, but many displaced Iranians have lived in England and other European countries for a long time. Their children could be infiltrated back into Iran through safe(I have no idea how) means. Those people want their country back.

66 Baier  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:01:11am

re: #59 Right Handed Neutrino

The point is that outwardly supporting it might actually harm the cause of the protesters; I can easily imagine the Iranian government using it as propaganda, arguing that the protests are actually the work of a foreign enemy, or something like that.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

67 offensive_username  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:02:12am

Death to fascism.

68 Charles Johnson  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:03:01am

re: #61 Killgore Trout

Lots of reports on twitter that access to the internet in Iran is being shut down.

Which twitter feed are you looking at?

69 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:03:18am

re: #54 JasonA

No, they just retire to Saudi Arabia.

Not an option for these guys, I don't think!

70 Baier  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:04:34am

re: #57 2senseplain

More from the point of view that supporting it might give it the "kiss of death" than that anyone doesn't want them to succeed. Tactics.

The hypothesis that a revolution would fail because the US supported those that support freedom is absurd.

71 Right Handed Neutrino  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:04:42am

re: #66 Baier

I don't follow your argument. Surely if doing nothing (openly) is the best thing that could be done to help the protesters then that's what we should be doing. Whether or not it actually I can see as being up for debate, but it seems to me there's a pretty strong case for not interfering with the situation, at least for now.

72 Right Handed Neutrino  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:05:35am

re: #71 Right Handed Neutrino

Should be "whether or not it actually IS", sorry.

73 Blueheron  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:06:27am

re: #16 Gang of One

Would this be the time for Israel to strike?

Absolutely not.

74 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:06:32am

re: #71 Right Handed Neutrino

I don't follow your argument. Surely if doing nothing (openly) is the best thing that could be done to help the protesters then that's what we should be doing. Whether or not it actually I can see as being up for debate, but it seems to me there's a pretty strong case for not interfering with the situation, at least for now.

We (the west) have been "doing nothing (openly) " since the fall of the Shah. Since then Iran has arguably been THE destabilizing force in that region

How is that "doing nothing (openly)" been working out!?

75 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:06:40am

re: #70 Baier

The hypothesis that a revolution would fail because the US supported those that support freedom is absurd.

What if the perception is that it failed for that reason? How does that affect the next round?

76 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:06:52am

re: #57 2senseplain

More from the point of view that supporting it might give it the "kiss of death" than that anyone doesn't want them to succeed. Tactics.

Damn glad we didn't stay out of Europe in the 40's...

77 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:07:24am

re: #73 Blueheron

Absolutely not.

Amen to that.

78 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:07:31am

re: #71 Right Handed Neutrino

I don't follow your argument. Surely if doing nothing (openly) is the best thing that could be done to help the protesters then that's what we should be doing. Whether or not it actually I can see as being up for debate, but it seems to me there's a pretty strong case for not interfering with the situation, at least for now.

What is that strong case... clarify?

79 Gang of One  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:07:41am

re: #75 SanFranciscoZionist

What if the perception is that it failed for that reason? How does that affect the next round?

Sounds as if we are damned if we do and damned if we don't.

80 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:08:18am

re: #68 Charles

#iranelection
There's also #ashura

81 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:08:35am

re: #76 Walter L. Newton

Damn glad we didn't stay out of Europe in the 40's...

Are we planning to commit troops to Iran? 'Cause we didn't liberate Europe by sitting back and making loud comments about how much we supported the partisans.

82 2senseplain  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:08:38am

re: #70 Baier

Dealing with some of the mentalities in the Middle East can lead to situations that are truely absurd. Nevertheless, that's what exsists.

83 Baier  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:09:45am

re: #71 Right Handed Neutrino

I don't follow your argument. Surely if doing nothing (openly) is the best thing that could be done to help the protesters then that's what we should be doing. Whether or not it actually I can see as being up for debate, but it seems to me there's a pretty strong case for not interfering with the situation, at least for now.

How do you think we are being silent? Obama spoke out about the last round of protests (a little late in my opinion) and yet they keep protesting. I see no evidence that overt US support for a counter totalitarian movement in Iran would cause it to fail. I'm not entirely convinced it would help either, but don't feel the US should choose silence in these matters.

84 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:09:57am

re: #79 Gang of One

Sounds as if we are damned if we do and damned if we don't.

It's Iran--you just now came to this conclusion? ;)

85 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:10:09am

re: #81 SanFranciscoZionist

Are we planning to commit troops to Iran? 'Cause we didn't liberate Europe by sitting back and making loud comments about how much we supported the partisans.

I would...

86 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:10:16am

CIS 's Exclusive video of Ashoura from Tehran

Youtube Video

Looks like they're ransacking a Basij station.

87 Charles Johnson  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:10:38am

Lots of photos here:

[Link: tehranlive.org...]

88 Gang of One  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:10:46am

re: #81 SanFranciscoZionist

Are we planning to commit troops to Iran? 'Cause we didn't liberate Europe by sitting back and making loud comments about how much we supported the partisans.

I don't suppose the U.S.A. would have gone to Europe had Japan not attacked, and then having Germany declare war on the U.S.A.

89 Semper Fi  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:11:10am

re: #70 Baier

The hypothesis that a revolution would fail because the US supported those that support freedom is absurd.

I recently learned, from my european friends, that the prevailing opinion there is that the US meddles in the affairs of other countries claiming that is why we are not well liked.

When and if formal charges are made against the protesters, I think the US will be blamed regardless of whether we remain quiet or not.

90 Right Handed Neutrino  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:11:25am

re: #74 sattv4u2

I can't agree with your assessment of the situation. There might not have been any military actions against Iran, at least none that I'm aware of, but Iran has been addressed many time by leaders in the west; George W. Bush's "Axis of Evil" speech come to mind. The point is, right now, would an open statement of support by western leaders harm the protesters? I think it would.

91 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:11:43am

re: #85 Walter L. Newton

I would...

Three wars, three countries to rebuild, three fronts, and a gargantuan chunk of the Middle East...

Aiyah.

92 Stuart Leviton  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:11:43am

re: #1 Dark_Falcon

May Almighty God bless and protect the protesters. May he crown the arms with victory, and thus bring an end to the tyranny and oppression of the Mullahcracy.

Amen.

May the almighty West bless and protect the protesters. May we crown the arms with freedom, democracy and respect for all, thus bringing an end to the tyranny and oppression of the Mullacracy.

p.s. - God, you know what you have to do; I hope our Western leaders know and do as well.

93 SteveC  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:12:02am

Twitter says People chanting "Death To Khameni"

94 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:12:31am

re: #90 Right Handed Neutrino

I can't agree with your assessment of the situation. There might not have been any military actions against Iran, at least none that I'm aware of, but Iran has been addressed many time by leaders in the west; George W. Bush's "Axis of Evil" speech come to mind. The point is, right now, would an open statement of support by western leaders harm the protesters? I think it would.

I see ,,, so speaches, sanctions and strongly worded letters have resulted in ,,,,!?!?!?!

95 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:12:41am

re: #88 Gang of One

I don't suppose the U.S.A. would have gone to Europe had Japan not attacked, and then having Germany declare war on the U.S.A.

Probably not, at least not for a time.

96 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:12:50am

re: #91 SanFranciscoZionist

Three wars, three countries to rebuild, three fronts, and a gargantuan chunk of the Middle East...

Aiyah.

Not if we did it the right way. Actually fight a war like a war and not treat it as if it's some damn demonstration at a university.

97 Baier  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:14:26am

re: #89 Semper Fi

I recently learned, from my european friends, that the prevailing opinion there is that the US meddles in the affairs of other countries claiming that is why we are not well liked.

When and if formal charges are made against the protesters, I think the US will be blamed regardless of whether we remain quiet or not.

I don't know if we'll be blamed, but if are silent we didn't do what was right.

98 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:14:35am

re: #89 Semper Fi

I recently learned, from my european friends, that the prevailing opinion there is that the US meddles in the affairs of other countries claiming that is why we are not well liked.

When and if formal charges are made against the protesters, I think the US will be blamed regardless of whether we remain quiet or not.

The U.S. will be blamed if the sun comes up tomorrow, also if it doesn't.

The Iranian government will blame us for the protests.

Some of the protestors will blame us for saying the wrong things, or doing the wrong things.

Europe will just blame us reflexively, no matter whose side they're on.

If you just know everyone's gonna blame you for everything, you have to follow your own best judgement.

99 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:14:38am

re: #88 Gang of One

I don't suppose the U.S.A. would have gone to Europe had Japan not attacked, and then having Germany declare war on the U.S.A.

Incorrect. The USA was already very involved in the war in Europe well before December 7th. We were sending materials, food and money as well as non-military personel, what would today be called mercenaries

100 SteveC  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:15:24am

Twitter: Nationwide strikes planned Monday Morning Iran time

101 Mark Pennington  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:16:03am

Maybe the Islamic government will be brought down and a new improved Islamic light regime will be put in it's place. I don't expect radical changes.

102 Right Handed Neutrino  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:16:18am

re: #78 Walter L. Newton

I'm admittedly far from being an expert in either Iranian culture or the dynamics or revolutions. But as I understand it, the United States is viewed at best with suspicion by the Iranian populace. It also sounds like the military switching side is going to be a prerequisite for this revolution to succeeds. I believe, like I previously stated, that the United States openly supporting the protesters could be used as a propaganda tool by the regime in place to paint the insurrection as organized by foreign powers to harm the country. It seems important that, all the way through, this revolution, if it does come to that, be seen as originating from the people, not from foreign powers.

103 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:16:20am

re: #93 SteveC

Twitter says People chanting "Death To Khameni"

That ought to really set the match to the gasoline.

104 Stuart Leviton  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:17:19am

re: #33 nogendavid
Good to see you again Nogendavid

105 NogenDavid  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:17:34am

The point is not whether a statement supporting right of peaceful protest would piss off Ahmadinehad. His regime treats even the supplicating gestures of Obama with utter contempt. THe audience is the morale of the protestors and elements in the Iranian Army that might be crucial in curbing the Revolutionary Guard; recall the December 10 statement by some Army officials that they would not condone use of force against protestors. As reported by Afshin Ellian:

"The army is a haven for the nation and will never want to suppress the people at the request of politicians. We shall remain true to our promise not to intervene in politics. But we cannot remain silent when our fellow citizens are oppressed by tyranny.”


“Therefore, we warn the Guards who have betrayed the martyrs (from the war between Iran and Iraq) and who decided to attack the lives, the property and the honor of the citizens. We seriously warn them that if they do not leave their chosen path, they will be confronted with our tough response. The military is a haven for the nation. And we will defend the peace-loving Iranian nation against any aggression.”

106 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:17:43am

re: #102 Right Handed Neutrino

It seems important that, all the way through, this revolution, if it does come to that, be seen as originating from the people, not from foreign powers.

See #98!

107 jayzee  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:18:22am

re: #103 Dark_Falcon

That ought to really set the match to the gasoline.

That they will not tolerate well.

108 CapeCoddah  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:18:31am

Woo Hoo.... Pats third TD... 28-zip! Gonna wrap up the Division championship!

109 Semper Fi  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:18:59am

re: #87 Charles

Lots of photos here:

[Link: tehranlive.org...]

Those Irani people have courage. If I could do anything to add to their strength, I would do it.

110 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:19:15am

re: #108 CapeCoddah

Woo Hoo... Pats third TD... 28-zip! Gonna wrap up the Division championship!

3 times 7 is 28?

Damn, that "new math!"

//

111 Stuart Leviton  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:19:22am

re: #39 Dark_Falcon

Then the protesters need to focus on obtaining as many police weapons as then can. The mullahs are going to strike back hard on this one and they need to prepare to parry the blow.

Love ya' DarkFalcon. I thought you were a pacifist?

112 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:19:24am

re: #102 Right Handed Neutrino

I'm admittedly far from being an expert in either Iranian culture or the dynamics or revolutions. But as I understand it, the United States is viewed at best with suspicion by the Iranian populace. It also sounds like the military switching side is going to be a prerequisite for this revolution to succeeds. I believe, like I previously stated, that the United States openly supporting the protesters could be used as a propaganda tool by the regime in place to paint the insurrection as organized by foreign powers to harm the country. It seems important that, all the way through, this revolution, if it does come to that, be seen as originating from the people, not from foreign powers.

And 6 month's or so ago, when we basically stood by and watched, who did Iran blame the demonstrations on?

113 solomonpanting  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:19:31am

This Iranian Regime Will Fall

114 NogenDavid  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:19:41am

105: thanks, Stuart, I stayed on board because of your encouragement.

115 Right Handed Neutrino  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:20:09am

re: #106 sattv4u2

There will always be people to blame the United States, that sounds like a given, but I believe open support would give them something more concrete to work with.

Again, I don't believe that silence will always be the best option, but right now, it seems like a reasonable stance.

116 Stuart Leviton  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:20:47am

Darkfalcon, my mistake. I confused you with DarkVader or something like that.

117 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:20:48am

re: #115 Right Handed Neutrino

There will always be people to blame the United States, that sounds like a given, but I believe open support would give them something more concrete to work with.
Again, I don't believe that silence will always be the best option, but right now, it seems like a reasonable stance.

See #112

118 Blueheron  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:21:28am

re: #87 Charles

Lots of photos here:

[Link: tehranlive.org...]

Thanks. Horrible pictures of a beautiful people.

119 blueraven  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:21:37am

OT: CNN reporting now that another NW/Delta flight has landed with emergency assistance requested.

120 Four More Tears  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:21:47am

re: #112 Walter L. Newton

There a difference between where the regime lays the blame and what the people believe.

121 CapeCoddah  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:22:38am

re: #110 sattv4u2

3 times 7 is 28?

Damn, that "new math!"

//

Dammit, make that 4th TD... LOL!

122 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:22:41am

re: #115 Right Handed Neutrino

There will always be people to blame the United States, that sounds like a given, but I believe open support would give them something more concrete to work with.

Again, I don't believe that silence will always be the best option, but right now, it seems like a reasonable stance.

And what does more concert to work with mean? What are they going to do? Send us a bill, get up at the UN and blame us for everything (oh, they already do that)... get up at climate change summits and blame us for everything (oh, they already do that)... get up at the Universities like Columbia and blame us for everything (oh, they already do that)...

Get real.

123 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:23:16am

re: #120 JasonA

There a difference between where the regime lays the blame and what the people believe.

We're talking about the regime blaming outside (read; Western) interference

124 abolitionist  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:24:03am

re: #74 sattv4u2

We (the west) have been "doing nothing (openly) " since the fall of the Shah. Since then Iran has arguably been THE destabilizing force in that region

How is that "doing nothing (openly)" been working out!?

Forgetting the 1983 Beirut barracks bombing? Hezbollah? 1983 United States Embassy bombing?

125 Blueheron  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:24:48am

re: #96 Walter L. Newton

Not if we did it the right way. Actually fight a war like a war and not treat it as if it's some damn demonstration at a university.


Pshaww how long does that last Walter?

126 Right Handed Neutrino  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:25:04am

re: #112 Walter L. Newton

re: #117 sattv4u2

But that's my point: the regime try to make it seems like this isn't a popular uprising, but some sort of conspiracy by outside forces. Coming out and saying "we believe the Iranian government is illegitimate" or something like that would give them a lot more to work with than just the standard "The west is our enemy" line.

I want Iran to be a stable, moderate, peaceful nation as much as you, but I doubt that, as of this moment, open support is the way to help this come t be.

127 SteveC  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:25:29am

Copy and paste from Twitter:

IRIB is under people's attack,people are trying to take over SEDA VA SEEMA

Anyone know what IRIB and/or SEDA VA SEEMA is?

128 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:25:38am

re: #111 Stuart Leviton

Love ya' DarkFalcon. I thought you were a pacifist?

What on Earth gave you that idea? I've always been a believer in the necessity of violence at times. I am, however, very careful in how I express such opinions, owing to the law and forum rules.

129 blueraven  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:26:00am

re: #119 blueraven

OT: CNN reporting now that another NW/Delta flight has landed with emergency assistance requested.

It seems to be the same flight number 253 from Amsterdam to Detroit.

130 Four More Tears  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:26:21am

re: #123 sattv4u2

We're talking about the regime blaming outside (read; Western) interference


Right. The Iranian people aren't isolated. They can see what's been said and what hasn't. My only point is that whether or not Mahmoud points his finger at us is irrelevant. It all comes down to those protesters on the ground.

131 Right Handed Neutrino  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:26:47am

re: #122 Walter L. Newton

I was more thinking of the regime blaming the west as a way to gain support amongst its own populace, not with the international community.

132 recusancy  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:27:29am

re: #127 SteveC

Copy and paste from Twitter:

Anyone know what IRIB and/or SEDA VA SEEMA is?

Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting

133 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:27:33am

re: #126 Right Handed Neutrino

but I doubt that, as of this moment, open support is the way to help this come t be.

You keep saying that, and I keep asking you what has quiet support given the Iranian people since the fall of the Shah?

In other words, your way has been tried and has failed, repeatedly

134 Stuart Leviton  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:29:02am

re: #81 SanFranciscoZionist

Are we planning to commit troops to Iran? 'Cause we didn't liberate Europe by sitting back and making loud comments about how much we supported the partisans.


You have gotten me curious, is sending troops the only option of support? Have we more tools?

135 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:29:13am

re: #126 Right Handed Neutrino

re: #117 sattv4u2

But that's my point: the regime try to make it seems like this isn't a popular uprising, but some sort of conspiracy by outside forces. Coming out and saying "we believe the Iranian government is illegitimate" or something like that would give them a lot more to work with than just the standard "The west is our enemy" line.

I want Iran to be a stable, moderate, peaceful nation as much as you, but I doubt that, as of this moment, open support is the way to help this come t be.

You are not addressing anyones comments, you just come back an parrot you're own remark, over and over.

Would you please actually ANSWER what's been asked of you.

If you want "...Iran to be a stable, moderate, peaceful nation as much as you, but I doubt that, as of this moment, open support is the way to help this come t be..." then tell us how you would do that?

136 SteveC  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:29:14am

Delta Flight 253, same as before. Twitter says person was in lavatory "long time", became "Verbally disruptive" when asked if OK. Being questioned now.

Hell of a time & place to be constipated.

137 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:29:56am

re: #131 Right Handed Neutrino

I was more thinking of the regime blaming the west as a way to gain support amongst its own populace, not with the international community.

wow ,, just ,, wow

SO ,,,, you're protesting against your gov't

Your gov't says that you, the protester, is really being ordered what to do by outsiders so that you, the protester, will side with tyhe gov't that you are protesting AGAINST !?!?!

((my head hurts!!))

138 Right Handed Neutrino  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:30:01am

re: #133 sattv4u2

I don't believe we have been giving them quiet support; I would also be curious as to what you believe the alternatives are, and what they would accomplish.

139 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:31:02am

re: #131 Right Handed Neutrino

I was more thinking of the regime blaming the west as a way to gain support amongst its own populace, not with the international community.

It's own populace is not happy with them now, their people twitter us over and over for support, they put up websites asking for support, haven't you paid attention, that's what the fuck this thread is all about, isn't it. You are talking in circles.

140 Four More Tears  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:31:05am

Wait... is anyone here seriously suggesting putting down boots in Iran?

141 recusancy  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:31:24am

re: #132 recusancy

Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting

SEDA VA SEEMA is another broadcasting place I think.

142 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:31:36am

re: #129 blueraven

It seems to be the same flight number 253 from Amsterdam to Detroit.

If its some other Islamist, I hope he got the hell kicked out of him for his trouble.

143 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:32:17am

re: #122 Walter L. Newton

re: #133 sattv4u2

re: #135 Walter L. Newton

re: #137 sattv4u2

Unbelievable... GMTA.

144 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:32:48am

re: #143 Walter L. Newton

re: #133 sattv4u2

re: #135 Walter L. Newton

re: #137 sattv4u2

Unbelievable... GMTA.

I know ,, I saw those too!

145 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:33:04am

re: #138 Right Handed Neutrino

I don't believe we have been giving them quiet support; I would also be curious as to what you believe the alternatives are, and what they would accomplish.

Sorry, you are not going to hijack the topic, you have already been asked what YOU would do. Answer that first. You have been asked a number of times and you won't answer.

146 SteveC  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:33:33am

Twitter: Heavy clashes in front of the IRIB confirmed.

147 jayzee  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:33:37am

re: #126 Right Handed Neutrino

re: #117 sattv4u2

But that's my point: the regime try to make it seems like this isn't a popular uprising, but some sort of conspiracy by outside forces. Coming out and saying "we believe the Iranian government is illegitimate" or something like that would give them a lot more to work with than just the standard "The west is our enemy" line.

I want Iran to be a stable, moderate, peaceful nation as much as you, but I doubt that, as of this moment, open support is the way to help this come t be.


Won't happen. We already accepted the governments legitimacy because we want to negotiate with them. For us to delegitimize them now would tell the world nuclear negotiations are off and Israel would IMMEDIATELY act (which would probably be a really good thing), but not what this admin or the rest of the world wants.

148 Right Handed Neutrino  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:34:01am

re: #135 Walter L. Newton

I don't believe I have actually been asked that direct question, but my honest answer would have to be "I don't know". I don't pretend to know what the perfect answer to this complex situation is. I can see why openly supporting the protest sounds like a good idea, but for the reasons I exposed I don't think it is.

149 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:34:33am

re: #137 sattv4u2

wow ,, just ,, wow

SO ,,, you're protesting against your gov't

Your gov't says that you, the protester, is really being ordered what to do by outsiders so that you, the protester, will side with tyhe gov't that you are protesting AGAINST !?!?!

((my head hurts!!))

Iran has tried to support their contention domestically with CGI animation purporting to detail the US "plot". I use the word 'domestically' because they showed John McCain and George Soros working together and even The Guardian laughed at that notion.

150 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:34:55am

re: #140 JasonA

Wait... is anyone here seriously suggesting putting down boots in Iran?

Lets review here

Since the fall of the Shah, would you agree that Iran is THE destabilzer in the region?

If so, since that time we have
sanctioned
written strongly worded letters
sanctioned some more
wrote more letters
made mention of it in a speech
threatened more snactions
threatened another strongly worded letter
hmmm

whats that classic definition of insanity!?!?

151 NogenDavid  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:35:08am

Obama could say two things"

1 Repeat his belated statement that the United States supports the rightg of peaceful protest and condemns state violence against it.

2. Link the domestic situation to Iran's foreign policy. The United States knows that regimes that repress their own people are likely to be belligerent abroad. Call for a new era in which Iran evolves democratically within and instead of supporting instability and terror occupies a prominent and constructive role in the world community.

152 Stuart Leviton  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:36:10am

re: #109 Semper Fi

Those Irani people have courage. If I could do anything to add to their strength, I would do it.

Good idea. Write your Congress Person.

153 SteveC  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:36:12am

From Twitter:

unconfirmed, IRTV is under attack shooting heard from inside the building

154 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:37:15am

re: #151 NogenDavid

Obama could say two things"

1 Repeat his belated statement that the United States supports the rightg of peaceful protest and condemns state violence against it.

2. Link the domestic situation to Iran's foreign policy. The United States knows that regimes that repress their own people are likely to be belligerent abroad. Call for a new era in which Iran evolves democratically within and instead of supporting instability and terror occupies a prominent and constructive role in the world community.

Those would be good things to say, and entirely within America's tradition. They would giving up any hope of talking to the mullahs, however, and so Obama is unlikely to say them.

155 SteveC  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:37:22am

Mir Hossein Mousavi's nephew reported dead

156 Right Handed Neutrino  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:37:28am

re: #137 sattv4u2

re: #137 sattv4u2

wow ,, just ,, wow

SO ,,, you're protesting against your gov't

Your gov't says that you, the protester, is really being ordered what to do by outsiders so that you, the protester, will side with tyhe gov't that you are protesting AGAINST !?!?!

((my head hurts!!))

Well obviously they're not going to convince the people in the streets shouting "Death to Khamenei!", but they might succeed in reducing the support of the rest of the people toward the protests, and, more crucially, convince the military to stick by them.

157 Stuart Leviton  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:37:34am

re: #114 NogenDavid

105: thanks, Stuart, I stayed on board because of your encouragement.

Don't stop now!

158 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:37:37am

re: #148 Right Handed Neutrino

I don't believe I have actually been asked that direct question, but my honest answer would have to be "I don't know". I don't pretend to know what the perfect answer to this complex situation is. I can see why openly supporting the protest sounds like a good idea, but for the reasons I exposed I don't think it is.

But you know everything about what we shouldn't be doing. Got it.

And you were asked in re: #135 Walter L. Newton read the last paragraph.

Observant.

159 Four More Tears  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:38:14am

re: #150 sattv4u2

I'm going to look at the level of dissent over there and say that something has changed. Of course you still didn't answer the question. It's a simple yes or no.

160 SteveC  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:38:50am

Twitter: Tear Gas in front of IRIB

161 Four More Tears  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:39:32am

re: #158 Walter L. Newton

To be fair I usually quit your posts half-way through, too.

162 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:40:16am

re: #140 JasonA

Wait... is anyone here seriously suggesting putting down boots in Iran?

I would. Or have Israel do it in proxy. Next question.

163 Right Handed Neutrino  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:40:22am

re: #158 Walter L. Newton

re: #158 Walter L. Newton

But you know everything about what we shouldn't be doing. Got it.

And you were asked in re: #135 Walter L. Newton read the last paragraph.

Observant.

I also don't remember claiming that I "knew everything about we should be doing." I certainly didn't intend to convey that impression. If you disagree with my assessment of the situation, I'd be happy to know what you believe the right action should be.

164 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:41:14am

re: #161 JasonA

To be fair I usually quit your posts half-way through, too.

Gosh, I'm crushed. Big shit. At least give yourself a little credit, you may find them funny.

165 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:41:42am

re: #163 Right Handed Neutrino

re: #158 Walter L. Newton

I also don't remember claiming that I "knew everything about we should be doing." I certainly didn't intend to convey that impression. If you disagree with my assessment of the situation, I'd be happy to know what you believe the right action should be.


re: #162 Walter L. Newton

166 SteveC  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:41:45am

Delta Flight: Person causing disruption is another Nigerian.

*FACEPALM*

167 NogenDavid  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:41:48am

Everything depends on who people both within and outside of iran think will eventually win. If you're Russia and China, and you see possible regime change, maybe you back off propping up the current homicidal kleptocracy. Outside interference is not only an issue involving role of western democracies (By the way, has anyone inquired into whether Venezuela is sending cashola to Chavez little buddies in Teheran?)

US can continue to say it will do practical business with Iran with any regime prepard to do so, but it can also say that it supports the democratic evolution of Iran and its return the ranks of moderate and constructive partners in world affairs. Instead, the Obama administration seems to be saying "we're too ashamed of our past to be assertively pro-democracy, and Ahmadinejad and the "Islamic Republic" is there for the long haul so let's keep extending our hand even if we keep getting spat on in return.

168 Stuart Leviton  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:42:27am

re: #128 Dark_Falcon

What on Earth gave you that idea? I've always been a believer in the necessity of violence at times. I am, however, very careful in how I express such opinions, owing to the law and forum rules.


Well spoken. Again, accept my apologies for I had erred. I confused your name with someone else's.

169 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:43:44am

re: #163 Right Handed Neutrino

re: #158 Walter L. Newton

I also don't remember claiming that I "knew everything about we should be doing." I certainly didn't intend to convey that impression. If you disagree with my assessment of the situation, I'd be happy to know what you believe the right action should be.

And you have no assessment, you just keep parroting " regime blaming the west... regime blaming the west... regime blaming the west"

We know they blame the west, they do it at the UN, at climate conferences at Columbia universities and daily in their media. Your assessment is shallow. It's not an assessment at all.

170 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:43:47am

re: #156 Right Handed Neutrino

re: #137 sattv4u2


Well obviously they're not going to convince the people in the streets shouting "Death to Khamenei!", but they might succeed in reducing the support of the rest of the people toward the protests, and, more crucially, convince the military to stick by them.

So your cousin/neighbor/ freind/ father/ daughter is in the street shouting "Death to Khamenei!" for YOUR freedom and because DinnerJacket says it's formented by the West you'll side with the regime and not your cousin/neighbor/ freind/ father/ daughter

wow ,,,

171 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:46:27am

re: #168 Stuart Leviton

Well spoken. Again, accept my apologies for I had erred. I confused your name with someone else's.

Thank you, sir. Apology accepted.

172 Right Handed Neutrino  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:46:34am

re: #170 sattv4u2

So your cousin/neighbor/ freind/ father/ daughter is in the street shouting "Death to Khamenei!" for YOUR freedom and because DinnerJacket says it's formented by the West you'll side with the regime and not your cousin/neighbor/ freind/ father/ daughter

wow ,,,

I seem to remember reading somewhere that by the end of the American Revolution, more Americans where fighting with the British then against them. I'm pretty sure the Iranian regime still has its supporters, and winning them over should probably be one of the most important objectives.

173 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:46:53am

re: #159 JasonA

I'm going to look at the level of dissent over there and say that something has changed. Of course you still didn't answer the question. It's a simple yes or no.

Actually, it's not and you know that

ANYWAY ,, here it is. Obama campaigned on building coalitions without the bullying of "the past administration'. He is also on record as condemning the putting down of these types of protests by force
SO ,,,, Mr. President ,, THIS one is not 'above your pay bgrade"

Put together that coalition you spoke about and act!

174 SteveC  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:48:32am

From Twitter: Tear Gas volley at IRIB was 20 shells, perhaps more. There are now IRG Special Forces Positioned Around Khameni's House and President Office.

175 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:49:30am

re: #172 Right Handed Neutrino

I seem to remember reading somewhere that by the end of the American Revolution, more Americans where fighting with the British then against them. I'm pretty sure the Iranian regime still has its supporters, and winning them over should probably be one of the most important objectives.

You talk in circles. How do we win them over, when according to your assessment, we have to worry about "the regime blaming the west... the regime blaming the west... the regime blaming the west..."

176 SteveC  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:49:30am

Police chief says 4 dead, 800 arrested

177 Right Handed Neutrino  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:49:46am

re: #169 Walter L. Newton

And you have no assessment, you just keep parroting " regime blaming the west... regime blaming the west... regime blaming the west"

We know they blame the west, they do it at the UN, at climate conferences at Columbia universities and daily in their media. Your assessment is shallow. It's not an assessment at all.

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree. I would like to know whether or not a military invasion of Iran is even feasible though. With Iraq and Afghanistan, do the US and/or Israel have the capability to defeat and occupy Iran? How would the local population react? What about the neighboring countries?

178 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:50:24am

re: #172 Right Handed Neutrino

I'm pretty sure the Iranian regime still has its supporters, and winning them over should probably be one of the most important objectives.

Why would they have to win over supporters!?!?!

179 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:52:13am

re: #177 Right Handed Neutrino

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree. I would like to know whether or not a military invasion of Iran is even feasible though. With Iraq and Afghanistan, do the US and/or Israel have the capability to defeat and occupy Iran? How would the local population react? What about the neighboring countries?

Defeat, occupy, that are you talking about? It could be all over in 24 hours.

And I don't have to agree to disagree. That's like saying I think your position is as valid as mine... bullshit. Come on Right Handed Neutrino, have a little more respect for your own opinion.

180 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:52:19am

re: #175 Walter L. Newton

BTW

Merry Christmas
Happy New Year

And when does the new gig start!?!?!

181 Right Handed Neutrino  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:52:58am

re: #178 sattv4u2

I'm pretty sure the Iranian regime still has its supporters, and winning them over should probably be one of the most important objectives.

Why would they have to win over supporters!?!?!

I would imagine the success of a revolutionary movement depends very much on how successful it is at gathering support from the people and the military.

182 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:54:28am

re: #181 Right Handed Neutrino

I would imagine the success of a revolutionary movement depends very much on how successful it is at gathering support from the people and the military.

But you stated the regime "has it's supporters"

THEN ,,in the next breath you tell us that the regime has to blame the west for "winning them over"

183 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:57:07am

re: #180 sattv4u2

BTW

Merry Christmas
Happy New Year

And when does the new gig start!?!?!

Tuesday. It is a retail position, furniture department, non-profit charity, thrift store (not goodwill, but the same size organization), actually pays way over minimum (not my programming rates, but much better than what I have been making a the theatre), and full benefits at 90 days. I'll take it (I did).

I won't be on here as much (I hear the "amens" in the background).

184 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:57:48am

re: #183 Walter L. Newton

Tuesday. It is a retail position, furniture department, non-profit charity, thrift store (not goodwill, but the same size organization), actually pays way over minimum (not my programming rates, but much better than what I have been making a the theatre), and full benefits at 90 days. I'll take it (I did).

I won't be on here as much (I hear the "amens" in the background).

you'll be missed

185 Right Handed Neutrino  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:58:25am

re: #179 Walter L. Newton

Defeat, occupy, that are you talking about? It could be all over in 24 hours.

And I don't have to agree to disagree. That's like saying I think your position is as valid as mine... bullshit. Come on Right Handed Neutrino, have a little more respect for your own opinion.

Well you are of course free to disagree to agree to disagree.

186 NogenDavid  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:59:43am

By the way, remember how the Obama administration reluctanctly but finally stated that Iran had til the end of this year to show some progress on the nuclear issue? All the US has received in return is contempt. With the year running its course, and the demonstrations, Obama has an excellent opportunity to make a firm and this time prompt statement in support of the right of peaceful protest and to to draw a link between internal repression and external belligerence.

187 prairiefire  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 11:59:51am

re: #183 Walter L. Newton

I'll miss you, Walter. You have a very sharp intellect. I think you will be on, just at different hours. How was "Reefer Madness, The Musical?" Any decent tunes?

188 Right Handed Neutrino  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 12:01:00pm

re: #182 sattv4u2

But you stated the regime "has it's supporters"

THEN ,,in the next breath you tell us that the regime has to blame the west for "winning them over"

I meant that the protesters had to win the regime's supporters over to their side; sorry if I phrased it in a confusing way.

189 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 12:03:44pm

re: #187 prairiefire

I'll miss you, Walter. You have a very sharp intellect. I think you will be on, just at different hours. How was "Reefer Madness, The Musical?" Any decent tunes?

I didn't like it at all. Tunes had no motif. Since the show takes place in the 30's, you would think they would have flavored it with 30's styled tunes, parody's you know, like Little Shop did with 50's do-wop feel.

There was a few swing numbers, but a lot of the music sounded like something from "Buffy." Actually, it came across as Disney High School Musical with a lot of tits and ass.

190 prairiefire  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 12:07:31pm

re: #189 Walter L. Newton

Yeesh. I sometimes wonder when we will hear something that sounds original again. So much solemn striding across the stage, trilling things that sound soooo familiar. I really mourn the loss of Johnathan Larson. A great loss to American theater, IMHO.


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