Video: The White Supremacist Roots of Arizona’s Immigration Law

Wingnuts • Views: 5,083

Rachel Maddow uncovers the people behind Arizona’s new immigration law: neo-Nazis, white supremacists, nativists, and eugenicists. Lovely.

The main guy taking credit for the new law is Kris Kobach — a Birther who’s running for Kansas secretary of state. But his Birtherism is the least offensive thing about Kobach.

His campaign Website brags, “Kobach wins one in Arizona.” He’s also an attorney for the Immigration Reform Law Institute, the legal arm of an immigration group called FAIR, the Federation for American Immigration Reform.

FAIR was founded in 1979 by John Tanton, who’s still listed as a member of FAIR’s board of directors. Seven years after he started FAIR, Tanton wrote this, “To govern is to populate. Will the present majority peaceably hand over its political power to a group that is simply more fertile? As whites see their power and control over their lives declining, will they simply go quietly into the night or will there be an explosion?”

For nine of the first years of FAIR’s existence, the group reportedly received more than $1 million in funding from something called the Pioneer Fund. The Pioneer Fund describes itself as based “in the Darwinian-Galtonian evolutionary tradition and eugenics movement.” For the last 70 years, the Pioneer Fund has funded controversial research about race and intelligence, essentially aimed at proving the racial superiority of white people. The group’s original mandate was to promote the genes of those “deemed to be descended predominantly from white persons who settled in the original 13 states prior to the adoption of the Constitution.”

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209 comments
1 Randall Gross  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 9:44:08am

If you search the youtubes etc. You'll find lots and lots of Kobach on immigration, in my mind he's not a candidate for Kansas, he's the candidate for Nativists.

2 Kragar  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 9:50:51am
The Pioneer Fund describes itself as based “in the Darwinian-Galtonian evolutionary tradition and eugenics movement.”

They left out the part about pure Aryan bloodlines.

3 jaunte  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 9:51:22am
In 1997, John Tanton told the Detroit Free Press that America will soon be overrun by illegal immigrants "defecating and creating garbage and looking for jobs."


Apparently John Tanton doesn't do those things, and he is as a result full of it.

4 Spider Mensch  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 9:53:51am

Toto..I don't think we're in Kansas anymore.....now go bite an illegal alien..good boy!! Walkies!!!

5 badger1970  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 9:54:09am

Paint me surprised and the finding of its roots. //

What I am though is amazed that a bill like this could be passed and signed into law (and don't tell me that this bill was aimed just to curb illegal immigration).

6 Charles Johnson  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 9:54:32am

Wow. Tim Blair really went wild yesterday, digging up every single LGF post during the election in which I wrote something negative about Barack Obama. He must have spent hours on it.

All to "reveal" something that isn't hidden at all. I was very opposed to Obama during the election, yep, that's right.

And I've learned since then that most of the crap being circulated about Obama was just that -- crap. He has not turned out to be a radical leftist at all, despite the continued screaming from the right.

If I had it to do over, I'd vote for Obama without hesitation. I'm very thankful that McCain and Palin aren't in office.

7 Obdicut  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 9:55:22am

re: #2 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Fuck them for using the name of Darwin to give themselves credibility. Galton, too, although a eugenicist, was a positive eugenicist-- one who wanted 'good' marriages promoted-- not a negative one.

Galton wanted to scientifically examine human heredity. He wanted to study trans-racial adoption to weed out environmental factors. He wasn't anything like the kind of asshole these people are. If Galton was alive today, he'd readily accept the genetic evidence that variation between individuals is higher than between populations, and would probably happily be doing work in inheritable diseases and immune systems in general, which are the most variant and important genetic differences in humans.

I hate seeing good scientists names attached to this kind of fuckery.

8 jc717  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 9:56:36am

But, but but... it's all about protecting the borders and making sure the federal gubm't does its job.
I had no idea that AZ was that messed up. This is worse than the Kansas anti-evolution nonsense.

9 Randall Gross  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 9:56:59am

The Pioneer Fund dropped its open admiration for Hitler's Third Reich after World War II, but it still bankrolls outfits such as American Renaissance, which promotes the idea that the United States is a "white nation" and that brown-skinned immigration should be completely stopped.

Read more: [Link: kcbuzzblog.typepad.com...]

10 Obdicut  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 9:57:49am

re: #6 Charles

Your ability to admit you're not omniscient and to change your mind is extremely challenging to other bloggers, Charles. I'm not sure why it's such an amazing trick to them, but apparently it's very unfair of you to do so.

11 McSpiff  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 9:58:54am

re: #6 Charles

Does that statement extend to the GOP and Dems in general?

12 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 9:59:54am

re: #10 Obdicut

it's one of the reasons I started reading here and signed up. Anyone who can change their mind in light of new evidence and can debate points without boxing themselves in is the kind of person I would want to read and exchange ideas with.

13 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:01:26am

re: #12 Dreggas

it's one of the reasons I started reading here and signed up. Anyone who can change their mind in light of new evidence and can debate points without boxing themselves in is the kind of person I would want to read and exchange ideas with.

yep.

and if someone isn't open to new information, what's the point in talking with them?

14 Randall Gross  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:03:08am

The Pioneer fund gets a lot of mentions at SPLC

[Link: www.splcenter.org...]

15 Obdicut  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:03:13am

Here's another great bit on Kobach:


[Link: blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com...]

Asked about criticism from the Arizona Anti-Defamation League and the Southern Poverty Law Center concerning his unsavory ties to groups such as the Federation for American Immigration Reform, which the SPLC has dubbed a hate group, Kobach claimed, "I don't have a racist bone in my body," and offered as proof his Christian missionary work in Uganda.

I wonder if that work included support for odious laws criminalizing homosexuality, and the like?

Also, that interview shows him blatantly lying about his relationship with FAIR.

16 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:03:13am

re: #13 Aceofwhat?

Agreed.

17 webevintage  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:05:38am

Well look, Rachel Maddow is doing the job of the rest of the media again.
No wonder Liz Chaney won't go on her show.

Oh and wow, why am I not surprised to find out that a bunch of scumbags are behind the AZ law.

18 Jadespring  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:07:18am

re: #10 Obdicut

Your ability to admit you're not omniscient and to change your mind is extremely challenging to other bloggers, Charles. I'm not sure why it's such an amazing trick to them, but apparently it's very unfair of you to do so.

Charles like many others who post here, use their brains and actually think about things using the process of facts and information, analysis and then conclusions. When facts/information change conclusions can change. Yep amazing trick.

Others seem to start with conclusions, set those conclusion in stone and use the process of conclusions, fit/twist facts and information into analysis that equals original conclusions. I find this thinking process a much more amazing and magical trick.

19 abbyadams  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:08:40am

re: #6 Charles

Obviously, you're not towing the party line very well there, sir. And, what is that you say? You changed your mind after seeing new information? Well, that is unacceptable.
/

20 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:08:41am

re: #5 badger1970

Paint me surprised and the finding of its roots. //

What I am though is amazed that a bill like this could be passed and signed into law (and don't tell me that this bill was aimed just to curb illegal immigration).

But...but...but...it's all the fault of the federal government, and old ladies are being gunned down in the streets of Sun City, and anyway, being in the country illegally is illegal! And it has nothing to do with race!!

//

21 SpaceJesus  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:09:29am

will be protesting this weekend

22 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:10:33am

re: #21 spacejesus
Good for you.
Should I get out my telescope? :)

23 cliffster  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:10:36am

These guys posted, "I helped with the bill" on their websites. I didn't see anything there that indicates that they actually did.

24 Obdicut  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:11:26am

re: #20 SanFranciscoZionist

What is really weird about that (and yeah, I got the slashies) defense when offered seriously is that it's often by the same people who say that local government is more responsive and better at providing solutions for problems. But in this case the argument is that the federal government isn't doing enough of something, so its inevitable that a bad, reactionary law like this will get passed.

If when there's weak federal control and not enough done by the centralized government the local governments act rashly and disproportionately, that would seem to me to be an argument for stronger centralized government, not weaker.

25 Spider Mensch  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:11:36am

re: #21 spacejesus

will be protesting this weekend

did they run out of cheezwhiz at the super market again??

/..another one I couldn't resist..

26 MrSilverDragon  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:12:25am

Any group that touts superiority over another because of skin pigmentation proves that they are inferior.

My $.02.

27 ShaunP  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:13:11am

re: #23 cliffster

These guys posted, "I helped with the bill" on their websites. I didn't see anything there that indicates that they actually did.

From FAIR's website (not sure if we are supposed to direct link there...)

"...FAIR's legal affiliate, the Immigration Reform Law Institute (IRLI) assisted Senator Pearce in drafting the language of SB1070..."
28 What, me worry?  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:13:42am

So the reason why the Fed Government doesn't want to deal with immigration is because they want the states to enact their own bigoted laws? I'm not being snarky. I really don't get understand why the federal gov doesn't move in and stop this.

I also understand that this bill will not be law for another 90 days in which time it can be stopped.

29 Randall Gross  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:14:04am

re: #23 cliffster

These guys posted, "I helped with the bill" on their websites. I didn't see anything there that indicates that they actually did.

Trust me they did, in the past Kobach trained Arpaio deputies, and acted as his attorney, he helped with the flap in Nebraska with illegals were offered in state tuition fees, and he's been all over the country. I would say he's totally single issue but sometimes he flacks for the Randall Terry crowd too.

30 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:14:59am

re: #21 spacejesus

will be protesting this weekend

Be careful. I saw there was some violence...bottles thrown at the police, arrests, etc....don't get caught up in that shit.

31 charlz  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:15:01am

re: #28 marjoriemoon

I really don't get understand why the federal gov doesn't move in and stop this.

You think health care was fun for Congress? I'd hate to be a pol in an election year having to deal with immigration reform.

32 [deleted]  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:15:01am
33 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:16:12am

re: #24 Obdicut

What is really weird about that (and yeah, I got the slashies) defense when offered seriously is that it's often by the same people who say that local government is more responsive and better at providing solutions for problems. But in this case the argument is that the federal government isn't doing enough of something, so its inevitable that a bad, reactionary law like this will get passed.

If when there's weak federal control and not enough done by the centralized government the local governments act rashly and disproportionately, that would seem to me to be an argument for stronger centralized government, not weaker.

For the border states, the issue of how much the Feds can do, are doing, and should do is always a hot one.

I just have no tolerance for people who pass silly crap like this and then say that they had to do it, because they're victims.

34 cliffster  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:16:41am

re: #29 Thanos

Trust me they did, in the past Kobach trained Arpaio deputies, and acted as his attorney, he helped with the flap in Nebraska with illegals were offered in state tuition fees, and he's been all over the country. I would say he's totally single issue but sometimes he flacks for the Randall Terry crowd too.

With all due respect, "trust me, they did" doesn't really prove anything. The websites are claiming credit for the legislation. What part of it did they help write? How much of it? How do we know they even helped at all?

35 Blizard  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:16:52am

So now what?

I can only give myself so many facepalms before a bruise begins to show.

36 darthstar  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:17:08am

re: #6 Charles

If Obama was a 'radical leftist' he would have fared as well as Dennis Kucinich in the primaries...if not worse. Nationally, we don't elect progressives in this country...shit-for brains isolationist wingnuts? Sure! Bring 'em on! We love sending those people to Washington...they represent our Real American Values...at least this last time, when given the choice between a moderate black man and an angry old man with an isolationist running mate, Americans thought about the forest and not just the trees.

37 MrSilverDragon  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:17:52am

re: #35 Blizard

So now what?

I can only give myself so many facepalms before a bruise begins to show.

I'm honestly surprised that I don't have a permanent handprint on my face because of so many facepalms.

38 cliffster  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:18:06am

re: #33 SanFranciscoZionist

For the border states, the issue of how much the Feds can do, are doing, and should do is always a hot one.

I just have no tolerance for people who pass silly crap like this and then say that they had to do it, because they're victims.

Yeah, that angle certainly doesn't show strength and resolve about the legislation. That's about the most defensive stand you can possibly take. "We know this is wrong, but the feds made us do it"

39 What, me worry?  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:18:38am

re: #31 charlz

You think health care was fun for Congress? I'd hate to be a pol in an election year having to deal with immigration reform.

We can't do this. We can't be a country of people who are too afraid of losing political clout than stopping our citizens from being illegally harassed.

I saw on MSNBC yesterday that Obama was "thinking" about bringing in the DOJ to review the issue. I have no idea what that means, but I simply can't believe this bill will ever get passed. It's not constitutional, period.

40 Obdicut  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:18:46am

re: #36 darthstar

There isn't even a Progressive mayor of San Francisco yet. That should tell people something.

41 badger1970  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:19:12am

re: #37 MrSilverDragon

Only orcs have handprints on their faces. //

42 What, me worry?  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:19:23am

re: #21 spacejesus

will be protesting this weekend

Take pictures please.

43 Randall Gross  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:19:24am

re: #34 cliffster

With all due respect, "trust me, they did" doesn't really prove anything. The websites are claiming credit for the legislation. What part of it did they help write? How much of it? How do we know they even helped at all?

See the fricking link above, and quit trying to defend this POS Kobach.

44 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:19:32am

re: #31 charlz

You think health care was fun for Congress? I'd hate to be a pol in an election year having to deal with immigration reform.

meh. it's called "their job". they didn't get elected to grab my ass - that's WindUpBird's job;)

oh yes i did!

45 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:19:58am

re: #38 cliffster

Yeah, that angle certainly doesn't show strength and resolve about the legislation. That's about the most defensive stand you can possibly take. "We know this is wrong, but the feds made us do it"

Even worse--I think the real sentiment is "We know this is wrong, but we really want to do it, so we'll blame it on the feds."

46 badger1970  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:20:51am

re: #45 SanFranciscoZionist

The "Sun Devil" made them do it?

47 ShaunP  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:20:56am

re: #34 cliffster

With all due respect, "trust me, they did" doesn't really prove anything. The websites are claiming credit for the legislation. What part of it did they help write? How much of it? How do we know they even helped at all?

More:

...Michael Hethmon, general counsel for the Immigration Reform Law Institute, helped draft the language of the Arizona bill. The institute is the legal affiliate of the Federation for American Immigration Reform.

On the heels of the Arizona initiative, Hethmon said he has been approached by lawmakers from four other states who have asked for advice on how they can do the same thing where they live. He declined to identify the states, citing attorney-client privilege.

"Arizona was meant to be the leading edge," Hethmon said. "If you are going to work on developing a state-based response to this enormous problem -- the lack of a national immigration policy -- Arizona is the place to do it."

Hethmon pointed to Arizona's history of citizen ballot initiatives in support of immigration reform, noting that "what's happening in Arizona just didn't pop out of nowhere. It's the latest step in a fairly deliberate process."...

48 Randall Gross  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:21:50am

Here's the Witchita Eagle also stating same.
[Link: blogs.kansas.com...]

49 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:22:47am

re: #40 Obdicut

There isn't even a Progressive mayor of San Francisco yet. That should tell people something.

Really, though, San Francisco is not a progressive town, we are a solidly liberal city with big business interests. Essentially, we keep electing the heirs to the heirs of the Burton machine.

Matt Gonzalez did almost make it in, though, and that would have been interesting. (For those of you who think Gavin Newsom is radical, I was considered a bit of a reactionary for voting for him.)

50 Randall Gross  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:23:38am

Here's Kobach's course at UMKC...

[Link: www.law.umkc.edu...]

51 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:24:01am

re: #43 Thanos

See the fricking link above, and quit trying to defend this POS Kobach.

I don't think the issue is defending him, but verifying whether he really had influence on this mess, or is just claiming credit after the fact. (Sorry if this is addressed, I can't play the video where I am.)

52 cliffster  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:24:28am

re: #43 Thanos

See the fricking link above, and quit trying to defend this POS Kobach.

Calm down. What is it that I've said that indicates I'm defending Kobach? In any way? Why do you throw that out there?

53 Obdicut  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:25:45am

re: #49 SanFranciscoZionist

I supported Gonzalez; I think his loss hit him hard and he lost direction after, at least, I hope so, otherwise he fooled me. My favorite city progressive is Quintin Mecke, who's campaign I also worked on. I don't like Newsom much, especially in his treatment of the homeless.

But yeah, you put your finger on exactly my point. The GOP says things like "San Francisco values" and it makes no sense to me, because what they describe are clearly so very far away from San Francisco values.

54 cliffster  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:25:58am

re: #47 ShaunP

Interesting

55 Renaissance_Man  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:26:27am

re: #12 Dreggas

it's one of the reasons I started reading here and signed up. Anyone who can change their mind in light of new evidence and can debate points without boxing themselves in is the kind of person I would want to read and exchange ideas with.

It's a very ugly underlying theme that I have noted in American politics this past decade. I am not intimately familiar with politics all over the world, but I am familiar with a few other countries, and it's certainly much less of a theme there. I'm referring to the 'flip-flopping' meme - the idea that if someone has ever changed their mind on anything, it's a weakness.

Hypocrisy is one thing. Pointing out where people contradict themselves is a fun game for the whole family. But it's truly unfortunate that it is instant political death for any politician to ever say, 'I was wrong, I didn't know all the facts when I said that, and now that I know, I believe this.' I get that we want strong, manly leaders who puff out their chests and have the courage of their convictions and are never wrong. It's just sad that we, as a voting public, swallow the meme of open-mindedness and intellectual honesty equalling weakness so easily.

56 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:27:20am

Racism spotted in Indiana...

Man Admits Race Was Motive For Vandalism

VALPARAISO, Ind. (CBS) ― A 62-year-old Valparaiso resident admitted vandalizing a black man's vehicle because he did not like the victim talking to white women.

After the victim, also of Valparaiso, caught the man in the act of damaging his vehicle just after 2 a.m. Saturday in the parking lot of Northside Tap, at 712 Calumet Ave., Thomas Campbell identified himself to police as a Vietnam veteran and stated he has problems with "those people."

When asked to explain who "those people" are, Campbell, who is white, said, "them blacks." He said, "I didn't like the way he (the victim) walked in and started talking to those white girls," according to the police report.

Police said Campbell caused about $1,500 worth of damage to the victim's black 2007 GMC Yukon SUV.

57 webevintage  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:28:01am

I hate Drudge and followed a link from a friend's FaceBook page:

"A bill signed by Gov. Jan Brewer redefined a 'dependent,' canceling the rule change made by Gov. Janet Napolitano that allowed domestic partners to receive benefits. Also eliminated are children of domestic partners, full-time students ages 23-24 and disabled adult dependents. The legislation is in legal review. About 800 state employees are affected, according to the state's administration department...Liz Sawyer, a UA staff member, said the exclusion is 'deplorable and it's tragic.' Sawyer is a spokeswoman for OUTReach, a staff group that lobbies for domestic-partner benefits at UA. Last year 170 UA employees signed up for domestic-partner benefits, she said. Forty were same-sex couples and the remainder were unmarried, opposite-sex couples, she said."

I'm starting to think that maybe Napalitano should have stayed where she was. Who knew AZ would go batshit crazy without her at the helm?

58 syrius  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:28:26am

I truly enjoy this blog...I look forward to reading it everyday. Arizona has a problem and this is the solution to their problem? The outrage has only begun.

59 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:29:43am

re: #53 Obdicut

I supported Gonzalez; I think his loss hit him hard and he lost direction after, at least, I hope so, otherwise he fooled me. My favorite city progressive is Quintin Mecke, who's campaign I also worked on. I don't like Newsom much, especially in his treatment of the homeless.

But yeah, you put your finger on exactly my point. The GOP says things like "San Francisco values" and it makes no sense to me, because what they describe are clearly so very far away from San Francisco values.

i thought you said (on some other random day) that you weren't 'progressive'? or am i reading this post wrong?

(not that it matters to me what you call yourself)

60 Randall Gross  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:29:44am

re: #51 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't think the issue is defending him, but verifying whether he really had influence on this mess, or is just claiming credit after the fact. (Sorry if this is addressed, I can't play the video where I am.)

The credit was claimed before the bill was signed.... I find that odd and that he's since backing away from claim. I suspect he didnt' think this could touch him in Kansas, but he should have learned from last campaign:

[Link: timothyburger.com...]

Kris Kobach ran an absolutely vicious primary campaign, worse than any of the previous primary campaigns, and remarkably one-sided. He called Adam Taff "ultra-liberal", he had Kansans for Life send out a letter saying that people who vote for Taff have the bloody water of abortionists on their hands, even though Taff supported restrictions on abortion. Kobach called the President's immigration plan a "liberal amnesty plan", Kobach sent out a letter from his wife that said Adam Taff made her think of her miscarried baby when he criticized Kobach, Kobach basically insulted everyone who was even a little less conservative than he was. That made a lot of people angry. I don't think most Republicans expect to be compared to Hillary Clinton and Ted Kennedy, or told that their views are ultra-liberal, they tend to take offense to that kind of thing and they don't tend to forget it.
61 What, me worry?  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:30:36am

re: #50 Thanos

Here's Kobach's course at UMKC...

[Link: www.law.umkc.edu...]

What's up with that book list? I didn't research any of them. Kobach, however, has one of his own. An author too. Ain't that special.

62 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:30:44am

re: #53 Obdicut

I supported Gonzalez; I think his loss hit him hard and he lost direction after, at least, I hope so, otherwise he fooled me. My favorite city progressive is Quintin Mecke, who's campaign I also worked on. I don't like Newsom much, especially in his treatment of the homeless.

But yeah, you put your finger on exactly my point. The GOP says things like "San Francisco values" and it makes no sense to me, because what they describe are clearly so very far away from San Francisco values.

It's a way of sneering at liberals, painting them as rabid moonbats, and adding a whiff of homophobia. It doesn't have much to do with the City in real life.

I have the "San Francisco Values" t-shirt from, I think, Pride before last. I love it. Also my one with Harvey Milk on it.

63 Obdicut  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:33:23am

re: #59 Aceofwhat?

i thought you said (on some other random day) that you weren't 'progressive'? or am i reading this post wrong?

(not that it matters to me what you call yourself)

I'm not progressive. I do think that the crises that San Francisco is facing could be far better handled by Gonzalez or Mecke than by Newsom or another corporate Democrat. I may have been wrong about Gonzalez, who I don't know well, but Mecke is just an amazingly good human being who is a tireless worker and honest to a fault.

It's the Jefferson/Hamilton thing. They thought each other's politics were wrong, but they still supported each other over someone like Burr.

Mecke is a progressive. But he's pragmatic. He wants to achieve actual results and has plans for doing so that involve reality. That's what I like in a politician.

Don't worry, he hasn't the slightest chance of being elected.

64 What, me worry?  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:34:16am

re: #57 webevintage

I hate Drudge and followed a link from a friend's FaceBook page:

"A bill signed by Gov. Jan Brewer redefined a 'dependent,' canceling the rule change made by Gov. Janet Napolitano that allowed domestic partners to receive benefits. Also eliminated are children of domestic partners, full-time students ages 23-24 and disabled adult dependents. The legislation is in legal review. About 800 state employees are affected, according to the state's administration department...Liz Sawyer, a UA staff member, said the exclusion is 'deplorable and it's tragic.' Sawyer is a spokeswoman for OUTReach, a staff group that lobbies for domestic-partner benefits at UA. Last year 170 UA employees signed up for domestic-partner benefits, she said. Forty were same-sex couples and the remainder were unmarried, opposite-sex couples, she said."

I'm starting to think that maybe Napalitano should have stayed where she was. Who knew AZ would go batshit crazy without her at the helm?

My mother has lived in Tucson some 20 odd years now. It's a Republican state for sure, but she adored Napolitano who used to get a lot of this kind of shit across her desk and vetoed all of it. Brewer, in fact, was appointed to governor after Napolitano was tapped for HLS. Brewer was not elected. My mother is beside herself over this crap.

65 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:35:57am

re: #63 Obdicut

I'm not progressive. I do think that the crises that San Francisco is facing could be far better handled by Gonzalez or Mecke than by Newsom or another corporate Democrat. I may have been wrong about Gonzalez, who I don't know well, but Mecke is just an amazingly good human being who is a tireless worker and honest to a fault.

It's the Jefferson/Hamilton thing. They thought each other's politics were wrong, but they still supported each other over someone like Burr.

Mecke is a progressive. But he's pragmatic. He wants to achieve actual results and has plans for doing so that involve reality. That's what I like in a politician.

Don't worry, he hasn't the slightest chance of being elected.

oh, no, i don't care - if you say the progressive is more pragmatic and a better fit than the democrat, i'll take you at your word.

for example, my extended family votes Republican more often than not but some of them have been able to meet Gov Strickland in Ohio (D) and they're firmly in his camp. it doesn't make them democrats...just pragmatists.

the labels often do more harm than good.

66 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:36:28am

Former racist leader plans under-21 club

ODESSA, Mo., April 27 (UPI) -- A former national director of neo-Nazi group Aryan Nations should be stopped from opening an under-21 club in Odessa, Mo., the city's mayor said.

"We know he's going to target young people and now we're doing everything we can to stop him," Mayor Tom Murry told The Kansas City (Mo.) Star of Charles Juba.

Juba plans to open a club called Black Flag in a mall in Odessa that would feature "Good friends, great dancing, awesome music and live bands," his promotional materials said.

Juba, who is in his late 30s, began his white supremacy activities in the Ku Klux Klan and was head of Aryan Nations in the mid 2000s, the Star Tuesday.

He once threatened black Americans with "necktie party," urging them to "swim back to Africa with a Jew under each arm," the Star report said.

At a town meeting Monday night in which he was resoundingly booed, Juba said he had renounced his racist and anti-Semitic past and just wanted to run a business.

67 Obdicut  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:41:46am

re: #66 NJDhockeyfan

Fuck them for using the name of Black Flag for this. I hope Henry Rollins tears them a new asshole.

68 Irenicum  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:46:17am

I stand by my fascism claim from the other day with no apologies. If this insanity isn't fascism, I don't know what is.

69 Irenicum  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:47:02am

And thank you Charles for doing the leg work of exposing this evil for what it is.

70 webevintage  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:50:25am

re: #67 Obdicut

Fuck them for using the name of Black Flag for this. I hope Henry Rollins tears them a new asshole.

No shit.

Man, he was awesome in Sons of Anarchy...

71 Liet_Kynes  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:56:04am
“To govern is to populate. Will the present majority peaceably hand over its political power to a group that is simply more fertile? As whites see their power and control over their lives declining, will they simply go quietly into the night or will there be an explosion?”.

1.) It better be handed over peaceably.

2.) Yes that is Representative Democracy - power shifts to the larger population blocs.

3.)I really love the shear idiocy that goes on in these quotes. It is for extreme individualism and extreme control at the same time.

4.) It is amazing to me how anti-Christian white “Christians” who support this bigotry can be. “” WE are opposed to these immigrants because 1.) they are brown 2.) they have lots of babies 3.) they have got the Catholic ick.””

5.) Freedom is not determined by externals, such as being “white” that gives one power and control over one's life (power and control does not equate to freedom - people who have lots of power and lots of control are often the least free). It is about the freedom of the internal man, what is in their minds and what is in their hearts. As long is one is free there, one has control over one’s life and destiny. If freedom and control is reduced to externals then the human race will be in never ending war with people who have different externals. If the purple man can see the pink man as his brother internally then we will have come a long way towards the separation that exists within the human family.

72 researchok  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 10:59:09am

Just because Kobach is taking credit doesn't mean he deserves the credit.

A lot of people in AZ support the bill (I personally do not) and they aren't all racist. They include a cross section of Arizonans, including minorities.

The reasons are many but in the end it all boils down to the feds not doing the jobs they are supposed to do. As a result, AZ now has to deal with 2 kinds of illegal immigrants- those who come here to work and those who come here to commit crimes. There is a difference. Sadly, the vast majority of the victims of the criminal element are minorities.

The rancher that was killed by a criminal illegal alien wasn't a gung ho, gun toting, shoot 'em up fool. He was a guy who went out and made sure there was water for people crossing on his land. He was no bounty hunter.

I really would like to see the bill protesters lament his loss.

Down ding all you like, but the reality won't go away.

By the way, I remain pro immigrant. I want to see a way for those here illegally to get legal.

73 AK-47%  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 11:03:08am

Funny how a lot of people who reject evolution are fond of Social Darwinism...

74 Obdicut  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 11:03:29am

re: #72 researchok

Do you have any data showing the support for this bill among minorities?

75 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 11:06:27am

re: #6 Charles

Wow. Tim Blair really went wild yesterday, digging up every single LGF post during the election in which I wrote something negative about Barack Obama. He must have spent hours on it.

All to "reveal" something that isn't hidden at all. I was very opposed to Obama during the election, yep, that's right.

And I've learned since then that most of the crap being circulated about Obama was just that -- crap. He has not turned out to be a radical leftist at all, despite the continued screaming from the right.

If I had it to do over, I'd vote for Obama without hesitation. I'm very thankful that McCain and Palin aren't in office.

True to form Obama has shown a willingness to modify any of his positions which do not advance his political popularity.
I'm not so sure his chameleon abilities are necessarily a good thing in the long run.

76 researchok  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 11:10:01am

re: #74 Obdicut

Do you have any data showing the support for this bill among minorities?

I heard it on NPR a couple of days ago. They said 70-80 percent of AZ residents supported the bill and that included a sizable number of Hispanics. The one guy they interviewed said he supported the bill because the crime in his neighborhood was out of control.

He made the same point I did- there are people who come to work and people who come to commit crimes. You can't say they are the same kinds of people.

77 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 11:10:57am

re: #71 Liet_Kynes

1.) It better be handed over peaceably.

2.) Yes that is Representative Democracy - power shifts to the larger population blocs.

3.)I really love the shear idiocy that goes on in these quotes. It is for extreme individualism and extreme control at the same time.

4.) It is amazing to me how anti-Christian white “Christians” who support this bigotry can be. “” WE are opposed to these immigrants because 1.) they are brown 2.) they have lots of babies 3.) they have got the Catholic ick.””

5.) Freedom is not determined by externals, such as being “white” that gives one power and control over one's life (power and control does not equate to freedom - people who have lots of power and lots of control are often the least free). It is about the freedom of the internal man, what is in their minds and what is in their hearts. As long is one is free there, one has control over one’s life and destiny. If freedom and control is reduced to externals then the human race will be in never ending war with people who have different externals. If the purple man can see the pink man as his brother internally then we will have come a long way towards the separation that exists within the human family.

I'm going to be blunt: The racial angle does worry me, more than a little. I'm not at all fond of the idea of white people not being the majority. But trying racialist measures to prevent demographic change would be to turn this country into a tyranny, and I won't advocate that. So ways to move beyond racial politics have been the strategy I have long endorsed. It really is the best way forward. Race matters, but I think it can be made to matter less.

78 Obdicut  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 11:12:01am

re: #76 researchok

I'm sorry, but i don't think "I heard it on the radio" is a valid place to stake an assertion.

Do you have any data showing that violent crime is actually at a high level? I haven't been able to find any.

79 Varek Raith  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 11:12:30am

re: #77 Dark_Falcon

I'm going to be blunt: The racial angle does worry me, more than a little. I'm not at all fond of the idea of white people not being the majority. But trying racialist measures to prevent demographic change would be to turn this country into a tyranny, and I won't advocate that. So ways to move beyond racial politics have been the strategy I have long endorsed. It really is the best way forward. Race matters, but I think it can be made to matter less.

I really don't give a crap about who's in the majority.
:shrugs:

80 Obdicut  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 11:13:02am

re: #77 Dark_Falcon

Why on earth are you 'not fond' of the idea of 'white people' not being the majority?

And I forget, do you count Jews as white? I, for one, would really rather prefer you didn't, by the way.

81 researchok  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 11:13:17am

re: #78 Obdicut

I'm sorry, but i don't think "I heard it on the radio" is a valid place to stake an assertion.

Do you have any data showing that violent crime is actually at a high level? I haven't been able to find any.

True. I'll look/ask around.

82 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 11:18:27am

re: #80 Obdicut

Why on earth are you 'not fond' of the idea of 'white people' not being the majority?

And I forget, do you count Jews as white? I, for one, would really rather prefer you didn't, by the way.

Because I am worried about what might happen. I don't advocate racialist policies, and it's not a fear that informs my decisions. But I'd be lying if I didn't admit I worry sometimes.

83 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 11:18:37am

re: #80 Obdicut

Why on earth are you 'not fond' of the idea of 'white people' not being the majority?

And I forget, do you count Jews as white? I, for one, would really rather prefer you didn't, by the way.

When the chips are down, Jews are defined by the white, black and purple anti-Semites. When the chips are down, Jews are Jews...period.

84 Obdicut  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 11:19:25am

By the way, Dark_Falcon, here's my favorite totally boring town in California. God, this place is so middle-class, so Mayberry in the '50s, it's ridiculous. People leave their doors unlocked and take care of each other's dogs.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Oh, and it's 20% white.

re: #82 Dark_Falcon

That's not an answer. You're worried about what happening?

85 Jadespring  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 11:20:37am

re: #82 Dark_Falcon

Because I am worried about what might happen. I don't advocate racialist policies, and it's not a fear that informs my decisions. But I'd be lying if I didn't admit I worry sometimes.

Appreciate the honesty. A question, not meaning to attack in any way. What are you worried about that might happen?

86 jamesfirecat  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 11:24:01am

Please somebody, anybody tell me that "Galtonian" doesn't mean what I think it means...

And while you're at it can anybody tell me who John Galt is?

87 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 11:24:28am

re: #84 Obdicut

By the way, Dark_Falcon, here's my favorite totally boring town in California. God, this place is so middle-class, so Mayberry in the '50s, it's ridiculous. People leave their doors unlocked and take care of each other's dogs.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Oh, and it's 20% white.

That's not an answer. You're worried about what happening?

I don't really have an answer. I worry about many, many things (I'm pretty neurotic). I'd ask you to accept that this is an issue where I make sure not to take the council of such worries. I have always worked to treat everyone I deal with as individuals and only according to what they themselves do and stand for. I brook no racism, ever.

88 Obdicut  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 11:25:00am

re: #83 Spare O'Lake

And when the chips are down, some Jews insult other Jews in a language they don't speak and then are too cowardly to actually say what it meant.

re: #86 jamesfirecat

It means this guy:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

I talked about him at the beginning of the thread.

89 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 11:25:23am

re: #86 jamesfirecat

Please somebody, anybody tell me that "Galtonian" doesn't mean what I think it means...

And while you're at it can anybody tell me who John Galt is?

He's a character in Atlas Shrugged, an inhuman book written by a woman devoid of compassion.

90 researchok  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 11:27:44am

re: #78 Obdicut

I'm sorry, but i don't think "I heard it on the radio" is a valid place to stake an assertion.

Do you have any data showing that violent crime is actually at a high level? I haven't been able to find any.



See this
- from FBI

Border violence increasing in Arizona

Human smuggling makes Phoenix kidnapping capital of U.S.

Mexican drug gangs bring abduction epidemic to Phoenix

Arizona Crime Rates 1960 - 2008

Criminals targeted in U.S. "kidnap capital"

There are lots more, I'm sure.

I want to reiterate, I am not anti immigrant- just the opposite. I want to see a way to legalize those here. I have written on it a number of times.

91 Obdicut  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 11:28:09am

re: #87 Dark_Falcon

I don't understand the concept of a worry unattached to an actual thing that you're worried about. Is it just a general anxiety related to change of any nature, and the fact that this has to do with racial demographics is coincidental?


I have always worked to treat everyone I deal with as individuals and only according to what they themselves do and stand for.

I know you do, and you're a good man for it. However, I would be extremely careful about expressing the notion that it 'worries' you that whites will no longer be the majority in the US one day without further qualifying it as you have done. The most obvious interpretation of that phrase is not a good one.

92 Obdicut  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 11:31:56am

re: #90 researchok

I'm sorry, but the one link showing violet crime data there shows that violent crime has decreased markedly in Arizona over the past twenty years.

93 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 11:33:49am

re: #91 Obdicut

I don't understand the concept of a worry unattached to an actual thing that you're worried about. Is it just a general anxiety related to change of any nature, and the fact that this has to do with racial demographics is coincidental?

Most likely, its just based on my fear that racial animus might expand and wreck the things that make America goo. That's why my policy preferences of always been for integrationalist and non-racially polarizing policies.


I know you do, and you're a good man for it. However, I would be extremely careful about expressing the notion that it 'worries' you that whites will no longer be the majority in the US one day without further qualifying it as you have done. The most obvious interpretation of that phrase is not a good one.

I normally don't bring it up just for that reason. Thanks for your posts on this matter. You helped me focus my thinking better.

94 researchok  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 11:35:41am

re: #92 Obdicut

I'm sorry, but the one link showing violet crime data there shows that violent crime has decreased markedly in Arizona over the past twenty years.

I just grabbed what I found. Still, the other articles seem to say crime is clearly on the rise.

I'll drill down some more.

95 Obdicut  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 11:35:46am

re: #93 Dark_Falcon

Most likely, its just based on my fear that racial animus might expand and wreck the things that make America goo. That's why my policy preferences of always been for integrationalist and non-racially polarizing policies.

That makes a whole lot of sense. Especially if I add a letter "D" to the end of "Goo". Some of my more lefty friends are shocked when I bring up that one of the largest challenges for immigration is the racism that the immigrants bring with them, but it's perfectly true; many immigrants to the US come from cultures far more racist than our own.

I normally don't bring it up just for that reason. Thanks for your posts on this matter. You helped me focus my thinking better.

No problem.

96 Obdicut  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 11:37:29am

re: #94 researchok

I just grabbed what I found. Still, the other articles seem to say crime is clearly on the rise.

I'll drill down some more.

Yes, but I have found statements that contradict them; it seems like this is kind of a political fight between various groups and their portrayal of the problem. Another issue that I have is that the violence is portrayed as spilling over a lot into the civilian community, but most of the articles there talk about the violence being mostly internal to the criminals themselves.

Thank you for having the honesty to do legwork and the like. I appreciate the hell out of it.

97 researchok  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 11:38:57am

re: #96 Obdicut

Yes, but I have found statements that contradict them; it seems like this is kind of a political fight between various groups and their portrayal of the problem. Another issue that I have is that the violence is portrayed as spilling over a lot into the civilian community, but most of the articles there talk about the violence being mostly internal to the criminals themselves.

Thank you for having the honesty to do legwork and the like. I appreciate the hell out of it.

You raise a good point. I will drill down and get to teh bottom pf it.

It's a sad day when you crime statistics (and crime is about victims and not numbers) are political fodder.

98 Obdicut  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 11:40:58am

re: #97 researchok

"Tough on crime" has been one of the selling points of politicians for time immaterial, regardless of the actual state of crime or whether being 'tough' on it actually reduces the amount of it. But yes, it is one of the more disgusting ways that politicians play; representing crime as being less than it is renders people unsafe, whereas representing it as more than it is breaks the bonds of trust, not to mention showing law enforcement in a shitty light.

99 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 11:42:09am

re: #88 Obdicut

As I said on the previous thread, in the immortal words of the great Toronto Blue Jay and league MVP George Bell, "Kiss my purple butt."

100 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 11:42:35am

re: #89 Dark_Falcon

He's a character in Atlas Shrugged, an inhuman book written by a woman devoid of compassion.

Pam Geller wrote a book? Does it have pop ups? Does it come with a box of crayons?

//

101 Obdicut  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 11:43:38am

re: #99 Spare O'Lake

Thanks. Next time you want to insult me with a childish phrase, it's more useful to do it in a language I understand.

102 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 11:45:59am

re: #101 Obdicut

Thanks. Next time you want to insult me with a childish phrase, it's more useful to do it in a language I understand.

No problem. But it wouldn't kill you to learn a few Yiddish insults, ya know.

103 researchok  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 11:47:13am

re: #98 Obdicut

"Tough on crime" has been one of the selling points of politicians for time immaterial, regardless of the actual state of crime or whether being 'tough' on it actually reduces the amount of it. But yes, it is one of the more disgusting ways that politicians play; representing crime as being less than it is renders people unsafe, whereas representing it as more than it is breaks the bonds of trust, not to mention showing law enforcement in a shitty light.

By the way, these kind exchanges are why I'm an Obdicut fan.

I may not always agree, but you always come from a place I can respect.

Geez, I almost sound civilized!

104 Obdicut  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 11:48:07am

re: #103 researchok

Likewise. You never sneer at a request for information and never call a shade of grey black or white.

105 Randall Gross  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 11:49:49am

re: #103 researchok

Heya, one other note: even Libertarian-Conservative Cato institute backs up what Obdicut is saying.

[Link: www.cato-at-liberty.org...]

106 Mark Pennington  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 11:50:20am

re: #92 Obdicut

I'm sorry, but the one link showing violet crime data there shows that violent crime has decreased markedly in Arizona over the past twenty years.

I'm so glad you're bringing this up. I've been hearing that the crime is actually lower in Arizona and the stats don't match the talking points.

107 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 11:52:26am

re: #101 Obdicut

Thanks. Next time you want to insult me with a childish phrase, it's more useful to do it in a language I understand.

That's the Internet for you: One minute you're having an intelligent discussion, the next minute the talk has regressed back to grade school.

108 researchok  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 11:53:06am

re: #105 Thanos

Heya, one other note: even Libertarian-Conservative Cato institute backs up what Obdicut is saying.

[Link: www.cato-at-liberty.org...]

Very good catch.

What do you make of the other numbers/claims? Are they all off base, do you think or are numbers being massaged across the board?

109 Obdicut  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 11:53:07am

re: #105 Thanos

If you look at the stats that researchok provided, there's a pretty goddamn dramatic drop in crime since the late 80's/early '90s.

Here it is again:

[Link: www.disastercenter.com...]

It's a very good link.

110 Jadespring  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 11:53:32am

re: #95 Obdicut

That makes a whole lot of sense. Especially if I add a letter "D" to the end of "Goo". Some of my more lefty friends are shocked when I bring up that one of the largest challenges for immigration is the racism that the immigrants bring with them, but it's perfectly true; many immigrants to the US come from cultures far more racist than our own.

I would also talk of just general prejudices as well. The word prejudice doesn't seem to get used much anymore. It seems to automatically go to 'racism' as a descriptor these days. I can understand that sort of fear. It is an unknown and when constantly bombarded with the worst stories about any group of people I think it's hard not to 'go there' sometimes.

I can relate because I grew up in a city which now is pretty close to being majority non-white and heard all the 'bad' predictions of how it would destroy it blah blah blah. Sure there are problems but it is not destroying it, in the slightest. Different I guess then when I was born but different doesn't necessarily mean bad.

The other thing I realize as well is that all throughout the history of immigration both our countries annomosity between different 'white groups' based on prejudice has been around as well. It's just not such a big deal anymore so we don't tend to think about it as much or even realize what a big deal it was at certain points of history. One segment on my own family has a history of big on prejudice against catholics. Some of the old stories are pretty bad. My Great Grandma was apparently awful. They were protestant Irish. In the town they lived in people wouldn't talk or even do business with each other because of it.

Another segment from mainland England hated Irish and Scots. When Grandma married into a Scots/Irish family it caused some conflict in older parts of her family.

Now we're all so mixed together that all those old prejudices and concerns seem like a bit of weird and bizzare history.

111 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 11:56:35am

re: #109 Obdicut

If you look at the stats that researchok provided, there's a pretty goddamn dramatic drop in crime since the late 80's/early '90s.

Here it is again:

[Link: www.disastercenter.com...]

It's a very good link.

Indeed. America has gotten safer. In that, we really are better off.

112 Lidane  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 11:58:41am

re: #86 jamesfirecat

And while you're at it can anybody tell me who John Galt is?

Put in Bioshock terms, John Galt = Andrew Ryan.

113 researchok  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 11:58:46am

re: #109 Obdicut

If you look at the stats that researchok provided, there's a pretty goddamn dramatic drop in crime since the late 80's/early '90s.

Here it is again:

[Link: www.disastercenter.com...]

It's a very good link.

What's most interesting is that the numbers are mixed.

How do you know how to read them?

114 researchok  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 12:01:13pm

re: #113 researchok

I'm going to spend time on this.

I suspect certain kinds of crime are on the rise (drug related, kidnapping, home invasion, etc), the rest are declining.

115 Obdicut  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 12:01:15pm

re: #113 researchok

I worked for the Brady Campaign, long ago. That was when I became a Republican, after seeing how badly they fudged statistics. Then I stopped becoming a Republican, after I sawing the GOP doing the same thing in other areas.

The charts show, for example, that Arizona is very, very high in property crime-- which is understandable, with a big black market in Mexico for stolen good sitting right next door-- but right in the middle of the pack, nationally, on violent crime. The index at the bottom is a relative one, so that makes it easy to interpret.

116 researchok  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 12:02:59pm

re: #115 Obdicut

I worked for the Brady Campaign, long ago. That was when I became a Republican, after seeing how badly they fudged statistics. Then I stopped becoming a Republican, after I sawing the GOP doing the same thing in other areas.

The charts show, for example, that Arizona is very, very high in property crime-- which is understandable, with a big black market in Mexico for stolen good sitting right next door-- but right in the middle of the pack, nationally, on violent crime. The index at the bottom is a relative one, so that makes it easy to interpret.

How do you submit we deal with illegal immigration?

117 Obdicut  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 12:06:40pm

re: #116 researchok

How do you submit we deal with illegal immigration?

1. Legalization of marijuana, semi-legalization of some harder drugs-- maintenance/treatment programs only, no retail sales. This would free up an enormous amount of law enforcement manpower and budgets.

2. A service-oriented path to citizenship. A period of service, either in the military or in needed civilian professions, granting you higher precedence in gaining citizenship. This is tricky as hell because of the 14th, but I believe it's achievable. I think immigrants would be far more patient if they saw an actual non-random path to becoming citizens.

3. An expanded guest-worker program combined with much harsher punishments for companies employing illegal aliens. This would need to be accompanied with larger abilities to penetrate corporate liability shields and hold the real owners-- the shareholders-- accountable.

The first two steps are realistically achievable, the last one is nearly impossible.

118 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 12:10:48pm

re: #117 Obdicut

1. Legalization of marijuana, semi-legalization of some harder drugs-- maintenance/treatment programs only, no retail sales. This would free up an enormous amount of law enforcement manpower and budgets.

2. A service-oriented path to citizenship. A period of service, either in the military or in needed civilian professions, granting you higher precedence in gaining citizenship. This is tricky as hell because of the 14th, but I believe it's achievable. I think immigrants would be far more patient if they saw an actual non-random path to becoming citizens.

3. An expanded guest-worker program combined with much harsher punishments for companies employing illegal aliens. This would need to be accompanied with larger abilities to penetrate corporate liability shields and hold the real owners-- the shareholders-- accountable.

The first two steps are realistically achievable, the last one is nearly impossible.

Agreed on all except the two bolded sections. Both strike me as seriously problematic. Overall, its a good plan though.

119 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 12:11:14pm

re: #114 researchok

I'm going to spend time on this.

I suspect certain kinds of crime are on the rise (drug related, kidnapping, home invasion, etc), the rest are declining.

I saw an interview last night on Larry King with Al Sharpton and the hardass Sheriff from the border town in Arkansas (I forget his name). The Sheriff was bragging about how the crime rate had gone down in his county, using that as evidence of what a good job law enforcement had been doing.

120 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 12:12:51pm

re: #117 Obdicut

1. Legalization of marijuana, semi-legalization of some harder drugs-- maintenance/treatment programs only, no retail sales. This would free up an enormous amount of law enforcement manpower and budgets.

2. A service-oriented path to citizenship. A period of service, either in the military or in needed civilian professions, granting you higher precedence in gaining citizenship. This is tricky as hell because of the 14th, but I believe it's achievable. I think immigrants would be far more patient if they saw an actual non-random path to becoming citizens.

3. An expanded guest-worker program combined with much harsher punishments for companies employing illegal aliens. This would need to be accompanied with larger abilities to penetrate corporate liability shields and hold the real owners-- the shareholders-- accountable.

The first two steps are realistically achievable, the last one is nearly impossible.

Excellent policies, all useless unless the border can be secured.

121 Obdicut  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 12:13:20pm

re: #118 Dark_Falcon

By semi-legalization, I mean things like methadone treatment programs and other things that have the goal of maintenance and risk-reduction.

And one day we really will have to hold people accountable for the actions of the companies that make them their money. It's unfair not to. Ownership should mean something. People should be made to take responsibility.

122 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 12:14:00pm

re: #119 Spare O'Lake

Or maybe it was Arizona.
Sorry.

123 researchok  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 12:14:36pm

re: #117 Obdicut

1. Legalization of marijuana, semi-legalization of some harder drugs-- maintenance/treatment programs only, no retail sales. This would free up an enormous amount of law enforcement manpower and budgets.

2. A service-oriented path to citizenship. A period of service, either in the military or in needed civilian professions, granting you higher precedence in gaining citizenship. This is tricky as hell because of the 14th, but I believe it's achievable. I think immigrants would be far more patient if they saw an actual non-random path to becoming citizens.

3. An expanded guest-worker program combined with much harsher punishments for companies employing illegal aliens. This would need to be accompanied with larger abilities to penetrate corporate liability shields and hold the real owners-- the shareholders-- accountable.

The first two steps are realistically achievable, the last one is nearly impossible.

Pretty good- though I see a guest worker program as very doable. Americans love cheap tomatoes and cheap drywall installers and bricklayers. More house for the money. That can be made politically attractive to the right- it's the 'Christian' thing to do.

Legalizing pot is a good idea. Let's tax the hell out of it like we do booze and tobacco.

To me, other than military service, the idea of a service track is a hot potato. Talk about political footballs! Left, Right and everything in between will be vying for federal dollars for the 'service programs' (think cross politics Acorn on steroids).

It also seems

124 Obdicut  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 12:15:14pm

re: #120 Spare O'Lake

Wow, what a compelling argument you've got there.

125 CuriousLurker  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 12:15:52pm

re: #87 Dark_Falcon

I don't really have an answer. I worry about many, many things (I'm pretty neurotic). I'd ask you to accept that this is an issue where I make sure not to take the council of such worries. I have always worked to treat everyone I deal with as individuals and only according to what they themselves do and stand for. I brook no racism, ever.

I think I might understand, sort of. Maybe it's not so much related to race as it is to shared cultural values? IOW, the worry that if your cultural group is no longer the majority then you'll somehow be marginalized. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't think that's a completely irrational fear, considering that we haven't always treated minorities particularly well. At the same time, I don't see American values—which IMO are primarily based on the Declaration of Independence & Constitution—as belonging to any one cultural, ethnic or religious group. If they did, I don't think people from all over the world would continually risk life & limb to get here (and stay here).

126 researchok  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 12:17:35pm

re: #124 Obdicut

Wow, what a compelling argument you've got there.

He has a point. None of this will work unless we do something re the border.

That said, a secure border with no provisions to deal with the facts on teh ground is useless. Your ideas have merit.

127 Lidane  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 12:20:25pm

re: #126 researchok

That said, a secure border with no provisions to deal with the facts on the ground is useless. Your ideas have merit.

The problem is that many people, especially on the nativist, isolationist hard right, treat immigration with an all or nothing, either/or approach, when the truth is, it's a problem that requires a both/and solution.

128 Liet_Kynes  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 12:20:32pm

re: #77 Dark_Falcon

I'm going to be blunt: The racial angle does worry me, more than a little. I'm not at all fond of the idea of white people not being the majority. But trying racialist measures to prevent demographic change would be to turn this country into a tyranny, and I won't advocate that. So ways to move beyond racial politics have been the strategy I have long endorsed. It really is the best way forward. Race matters, but I think it can be made to matter less.

I am not one to say that all cultures are equal. There are clearly cultures which excel in certain areas of promoting humanity and some which fail in others areas. Cultures that promote bloodshed and violence obviously need to go into the dustbin of history.

The idea of “white” culture is rather mental in my opinion. There are several different cultures that white people have. When you say “I’m afraid of white people not being in the majority” what type of white culture are you talking about?

I fundamentally disagree with the idea of race mattering though. If race mattered, then we are saying that groups of people are genetically inferior or superior to other people. That is how we end up with caste societies, slavery based upon genetics, and unending wars with one’s neighbor who looks funny.

129 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 12:20:33pm

re: #124 Obdicut

Wow, what a compelling argument you've got there.

Thank you. It was not an argument, just an obvious fact with which I had assumed you would whoeheartedly have agreed.

130 Obdicut  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 12:21:40pm

re: #126 researchok

Of course it will work without achieving an impossible goal. The point is to stem illegal immigration. You can't stop it, you can only stem it. People try to come here in refrigerators from goddamn Haiti.

If your first step is securing the border, you will never take another step. Not unless you're willing to turn America, or the border states, at least, into a police state.

What I outlined is a way to massively slow illegal immigration, remove power from the violent gangs that exploit it, and give power back to law enforcement to fight them. That's what we need. And the border can remain a porous hole and it'll still work.

131 CuriousLurker  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 12:23:14pm

re: #87 Dark_Falcon

Upding for honesty. ;o)

132 Obdicut  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 12:23:37pm

re: #129 Spare O'Lake

Nope. You can't secure the border. We don't even have a border with Haiti, and yet we have hundreds of thousands of Haitian illegal immigrants.

If you do want to police the border better, however, then obviously my first point addresses that. Patrol the border with the police you freed up from busting low-level pot dealers.

133 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 12:26:50pm

re: #130 Obdicut

Of course it will work without achieving an impossible goal. The point is to stem illegal immigration. You can't stop it, you can only stem it. People try to come here in refrigerators from goddamn Haiti.

If your first step is securing the border, you will never take another step. Not unless you're willing to turn America, or the border states, at least, into a police state.

What I outlined is a way to massively slow illegal immigration, remove power from the violent gangs that exploit it, and give power back to law enforcement to fight them. That's what we need. And the border can remain a porous hole and it'll still work.

Wrong. There is a virtually unlimited number of destitute latinos who will continue to pour across the border even if your proposals were all to be fully implemented. How on earth do you figure that the presence of the drug cartels in the border states is the reason for most of the illegal immigration?

134 researchok  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 12:26:52pm

re: #130 Obdicut

Of course it will work without achieving an impossible goal. The point is to stem illegal immigration. You can't stop it, you can only stem it. People try to come here in refrigerators from goddamn Haiti.

If your first step is securing the border, you will never take another step. Not unless you're willing to turn America, or the border states, at least, into a police state.

What I outlined is a way to massively slow illegal immigration, remove power from the violent gangs that exploit it, and give power back to law enforcement to fight them. That's what we need. And the border can remain a porous hole and it'll still work.

Excellent point. Excellent.

135 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 12:28:24pm

re: #86 jamesfirecat

Please somebody, anybody tell me that "Galtonian" doesn't mean what I think it means...

And while you're at it can anybody tell me who John Galt is?

An asshole who thought the world would literally stop functioning if he withdrew, and thus saw his own absence from society as something which could be used as a form of protest.

In other words, a self-obsessed asshole.

136 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 12:28:25pm

re: #131 CuriousLurker

Upding for honesty. ;o)

Thank you.

137 jamesfirecat  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 12:31:47pm

Okay clearly many of people missed my joke in 86.

So I'll state it loud and proud, would you have laughed and updinged me if the second line of my post had read " And while you're at it can anybody tell me who is John Galt?"

138 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 12:35:45pm

re: #132 Obdicut

Nope. You can't secure the border. We don't even have a border with Haiti, and yet we have hundreds of thousands of Haitian illegal immigrants.

If you do want to police the border better, however, then obviously my first point addresses that. Patrol the border with the police you freed up from busting low-level pot dealers.

For sure, you can't secure the border 100%, but you sure can secure it a heck of a lot better than it is now. But wait, maybe I misunderstood you...maybe you are really saying that all that needs to be stopped is the infiltration by the illegal Mexican drug cartels, and you really don't care how many millions of other illegals continue to pour across the border. Is that your bottom line?

139 Obdicut  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 12:36:30pm

re: #133 Spare O'Lake

Wrong. There is a virtually unlimited number of destitute latinos who will continue to pour across the border even if your proposals were all to be fully implemented. How on earth do you figure that the presence of the drug cartels in the border states is the reason for most of the illegal immigration?

I don't. How on earth do you get that out of what I said?

re: #138 Spare O'Lake

What does the word 'stem' mean?

140 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 12:40:31pm

re: #135 Fozzie Bear

An asshole who thought the world would literally stop functioning if he withdrew, and thus saw his own absence from society as something which could be used as a form of protest.

In other words, a self-obsessed asshole.

Quite Concur.

141 researchok  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 12:44:09pm

re: #138 Spare O'Lake

For sure, you can't secure the border 100%, but you sure can secure it a heck of a lot better than it is now. But wait, maybe I misunderstood you...maybe you are really saying that all that needs to be stopped is the infiltration by the illegal Mexican drug cartels, and you really don't care how many millions of other illegals continue to pour across the border. Is that your bottom line?

Obdi is right. As it stands, there is no incentive to change the status quo (for illegals). To secure the border only is to invite more creative ways of breaching that border. It's a never ending cycle, like cyber crime.

If you change the rules on the ground as well as the border, realities change.

Now, breaking the gang problem will not be easy. I suspect Obdi will concur on that point. Still, securing the borders and changing the rules in tandem will change how business is done. That's a start. We can shift on the fly if necessary to address changing reality. It is the commitment to deal with the issue on multiple levels that will make it work.

142 Liet_Kynes  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 12:45:01pm

re: #117 Obdicut


3. An expanded guest-worker program combined with much harsher punishments for companies employing illegal aliens. This would need to be accompanied with larger abilities to penetrate corporate liability shields and hold the real owners-- the shareholders-- accountable.
.

What about detaching the guest worker system from the various pathways to citizenship? If the guest worker system was liberal and generous, gave the works protections, and mandated that the people involved in it kept residency in their countries of origin and returned there now and then…. What do you think?

The best way I think to stopping illegal immmigration is to work to make their home countries better places to live. People want to have a better life for themselves and their children. That is why they come here. America is great, people love her. It would be good for America to help other countries be great so that their citizens would like living there.

143 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 12:45:02pm

re: #139 Obdicut

I don't. How on earth do you get that out of what I said?

re: #138 Spare O'Lake

What does the word 'stem' mean?

You are a pedantophile.
Stop dodging the physical border issue.

144 AK-47%  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 12:48:15pm

I am a resident legal alien in Germany. According to law, I have to have a reisence permit to live here, register a vehicle or open a bank account, and a work permit in order to be employed.

I recently received a note from them reminding me that my US passport was about to expire and it was against the law for me to be here without a valid passport.

I had would've forgotten the matter entirely and could've had trouble trying to travel with it.

But I cannot for the life of me imagine finding a majority consensus in the USA to create and maintain the sort of bureaucracy to register and track every single resident alien entering the country and residing here like they do here in Germany: it all costs money and means more government, which lots of people oppose on general principle, regardless of the expense involved.

145 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 12:49:02pm

re: #141 researchok

Obdi is right. As it stands, there is no incentive to change the status quo (for illegals). To secure the border only is to invite more creative ways of breaching that border. It's a never ending cycle, like cyber crime.

If you change the rules on the ground as well as the border, realities change.

Now, breaking the gang problem will not be easy. I suspect Obdi will concur on that point. Still, securing the borders and changing the rules in tandem will change how business is done. That's a start. We can shift on the fly if necessary to address changing reality. It is the commitment to deal with the issue on multiple levels that will make it work.

I beg to differ. Long before the drug cartels became a problem, the illegals were pouring across the border. That flow was, is and will remain a function of the vast difference in the standard of living between the US and Latin America. The drug cartels are a relatively recent issue, and they have brought the pot to a boil, but eliminating the drug problem will not stem the flow of illegals.
IMHO.

146 Obdicut  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 12:49:17pm

re: #143 Spare O'Lake

I'm not dodging shit. FIrst of all, I clearly said that if you want to increase border security, you can use the LEOs freed up by legalizing marijuana to do that. Do your eyes simply skip past positions that mean you wouldn't be able to attack me? Second of all, with a clearer path to citizenship and expanded guest worker program there will be significantly fewer illegal aliens AND significantly less sympathy for illegal aliens.

re: #142 Liet_Kynes

In no way did I attach the guest worker program with the path to citizenship.

147 researchok  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 12:51:04pm

By the way, I do disagree with Obdi re holding shareholders accountable for the actions of companies who hire illegals. Shareholders do not have a say in how the company is run. That falls directly on management and the Boards of Directors.

148 Liet_Kynes  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 12:51:42pm

re: #146 Obdicut

In no way did I attach the guest worker program with the path to citizenship.

Did I say you did?

149 Obdicut  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 12:52:19pm

re: #147 researchok

What I'm saying is that shareholders should be held accountable for how a company is run since they profit from the actions of that company.

150 Obdicut  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 12:53:30pm

re: #148 Liet_Kynes

Did I say you did?

Your question makes no sense if that wasn't what you meant.

There's nothing to detach. Guest worker programs aren't related to the citizenship path now, nor were they in what I proposed.

151 researchok  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 12:54:33pm

re: #145 Spare O'Lake

I beg to differ. Long before the drug cartels became a problem, the illegals were pouring across the border. That flow was, is and will remain a function of the vast difference in the standard of living between the US and Latin America. The drug cartels are a relatively recent issue, and they have brought the pot to a boil, but eliminating the drug problem will not stem the flow of illegals.
IMHO.

You are right- but only up to a point.

In previous years illegals came here to work for the most part. Now, there is a whole group of illegals who have come here to commit crimes.

Illegals who work in the fields add to our quality of life That's why enforcement was so lax. Now we have a criminal class and gang bangers. We're trying to catch up.

152 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 12:55:10pm

There is a way to make shareholders indirectly accountable: Really. Freaking. Huge. Fines. The kind that are effectively a death penalty for corporations knowingly hiring illegals.

Of course that would require a stronger government, not weaker, so it's a no-go in the parts of the country where it is a big problem. (Largely red states)

153 researchok  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 12:55:41pm

re: #149 Obdicut

What I'm saying is that shareholders should be held accountable for how a company is run since they profit from the actions of that company.

Understood. A tax penalty to shareholders of companies who violate the law would do the trick nicely.

That would only happen once.

154 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 12:56:16pm

re: #151 researchok

Illegals who work in the fields add to our quality of life That's why enforcement was so lax. Now we have a criminal class and gang bangers. We're trying to catch up.

Whose quality of life, exactly, does exploiting people improve?

155 researchok  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 12:56:45pm

BBL. I really have to do some work.

Reality.

156 Obdicut  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 12:56:46pm

re: #152 Fozzie Bear

Except that doesn't really affect companies that simply distribute all profits yearly in dividends.

It has to penetrate through to the real shareholder level or there are plenty of financial mechanisms to dodge the blow.

157 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 12:57:18pm

re: #153 researchok

Understood. A tax penalty to shareholders of companies who violate the law would do the trick nicely.

That would only happen once.

That sounds like a good idea.

158 researchok  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 12:57:19pm

re: #154 Fozzie Bear

Whose quality of life, exactly, does exploiting people improve?

Cheap tomatoes. Cheap building trades. We like that.

159 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 12:58:01pm

Some of my Christian friends here can help me with the proverb I am looking for. It fits all too well.

It goes something like "you shall know a tree by its fruit."

I think it is from Matthew. Matthew was completely correct about this.

For those of you who doubt, who simply refuse to see the connections let's look at the neo-nazis here, in this report, the subject of this thread - talking about preserving a white majority.

Let's compare one more time to Hitler himself in 1927.

Don't even call it Godwin. Whining about Godwin only applies if the comparison is invalid. If there is a valid comparison, like there is right here and right now, it just becomes a ritualized way of dismissing the facts.

Wake up folks.

Compare and contrast.

Adolf Hitler's Speech at the
1927 Nuremberg Rally

62 million people who seem to hold together are no longer a power factor in a world in which groups with 400 million are increasingly active, nations for which their population is their major tool of economic policy...

If numbers themselves are no longer a power factor, the second factor is territory. This, too, is no longer a power factor for us, even seeming laughable when one can fly across our German territory in a mere four hours. That is no longer an amount of territory that provides its own defense, as is the case with Russia. Its size alone is a means of security. If the first two sources of power, population and territory, are inadequate, there remains always the third, that which rests in the inner strength of a people. A nation can do astounding things when it carries this power in its own internal values. When, however, we examine the German people, we must to our horror see that this last power factor is no longer present.

These are. These really are nazis. They make no attempt to hide it and at least in AZ we have the GOP allied with them.

Across the nation the GOP, for whatever reason has a bank shot here and has managed to once again scuttle climate legislation - in order to what? Maintain the status quo? Allow their corporate sponsors to continue to abuse cheap labor? Keep their maid? Allow states rights whackos the state level liberty to enshrine Nazi ideals into law?

And in the mean time, climate, the single most pressing issue there is, without doubt is put on a back burner again.

The early Nazi party was weak and leaderless. There were many players but no clear alpha wolf. In the base though, the propaganda spread and as financial and media support came in for them, they grew in strength.

The GOP are not nazis yet. They have not found the charismatic evil genius yet to pick this ripening fruit.

But, by the fruits, you shall know the tree.

160 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 1:00:21pm

re: #146 Obdicut

I'm not dodging shit. FIrst of all, I clearly said that if you want to increase border security, you can use the LEOs freed up by legalizing marijuana to do that. Do your eyes simply skip past positions that mean you wouldn't be able to attack me? Second of all, with a clearer path to citizenship and expanded guest worker program there will be significantly fewer illegal aliens AND significantly less sympathy for illegal aliens.

re: #142 Liet_Kynes

In no way did I attach the guest worker program with the path to citizenship.

1. Freeing up DEA manpower is no substitute for effective physical barrier(s) along the border, yet you have yet to mention the words fence or wall.
2. Again, there was, is and will remain an UNLIMITED number of hungry, desperate folks who will keep pouring across the porous border regardless of how many temporary work permits are issued. The border must therefore be sufficiently secured to keep out those desperados.

161 Vambo  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 1:02:30pm

Maddow, doing her job well.

Rest of the media: LOOK! A swastika painted in refried beans!

162 Obdicut  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 1:03:54pm

re: #160 Spare O'Lake

1. Freeing up DEA manpower is no substitute for effective physical barrier(s) along the border, yet you have yet to mention the words fence or wall.

A) You're right. It's not a substitute. It's much fucking better than a physical barrier.

B) Not just DEA employees are involved in fighting the drug war, and it's stupid of you to imply that that is the only people who would be freed up.

Again, there was, is and will remain an UNLIMITED number of hungry, desperate folks who will keep pouring across the porous border regardless of how many temporary work permits are issued. The border must therefore be sufficiently secured to keep out those desperados.

C) No, there are not infinite people in Central and South America. Sheesh. And calling all of them desperadoes is moronic, as well.

163 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 1:08:03pm

re: #159 LudwigVanQuixote

Calling large numbers of your countrymen Nazis and Nazi sympathizers is a very dangerous stratagem. Don't be surprised if it backfires.
BTW I think the phrase is:
"Wake Up America!"
- Dennis Kucinich

164 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 1:09:46pm

re: #162 Obdicut

I see you have lost your civility in addition to having lost the argument.
Bye now.

165 Obdicut  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 1:12:13pm

re: #164 Spare O'Lake

Dude, you used a childish insult on me a couple hours ago. I am calling your ideas moronic, because your ideas are moronic. Moreover, in order to attack me you are regularly ignoring what I"m actually saying in order to make up something to attack. That is also idiotic of you.

I'm not calling you an idiot; I'm calling what you're saying idiotic. There is a mile of difference.

And declaring yourself the winner of the argument is eye-rollingly high-school behavior.

Bye now.

166 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 1:13:17pm

re: #164 Spare O'Lake

I see you have lost your civility in addition to having lost the argument.
Bye now.

You don't just get to declare yourself the victor and have anyone take you seriously here.

Downdinged for employing possibly the stupidest arguing tactic in existence.

167 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 1:17:59pm

re: #164 Spare O'Lake

What's with you lately? You feel a need to show your ass in public all of a sudden?

168 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 1:18:22pm

My prediction: the next governor of Arizona will be a Democrat, and by a rather surprisingly large margin.

169 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 1:20:15pm

re: #163 Spare O'Lake

Calling large numbers of your countrymen Nazis and Nazi sympathizers is a very dangerous stratagem. Don't be surprised if it backfires.
BTW I think the phrase is:
"Wake Up America!"
- Dennis Kucinich

Idiot, this is not about strategy, this is truth. Look at what the early Nazis said and did. Look at what is happening now.

What is wrong with you? The people behind this bill, who helped write it are Eugenicists, proud white supremacists and they talk just like Hitler.

Why do you refuse to see this?

The other thing that I never understood as a boy was how the normal folks of Germany could let it happen. My grandfather told me of the will not to believe. I never thought I would see it so obviously in action.

170 Liet_Kynes  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 1:20:18pm

re: #150 Obdicut

Your question makes no sense if that wasn't what you meant.

There's nothing to detach. Guest worker programs aren't related to the citizenship path now, nor were they in what I proposed.

Sorry for not making myself clear. Often I hear proposals for guest worker programs that do include a path to citizenship. As your #3 didn't address the issue, I was curious as to if you thought making sure that a guest worker program and a path to citizenship where distinct (not overlapping or dovetailing at all) was a good idea.

Now I know you believe that the programs should not be related.

171 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 1:20:29pm

re: #168 Fozzie Bear

My prediction: the next governor of Arizona will be a Democrat, and by a rather surprisingly large margin.

I pray to G-d you are right.

172 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 1:22:16pm

re: #169 LudwigVanQuixote

The other thing that I never understood as a boy was how the normal folks of Germany could let it happen. My grandfather told me of the will not to believe. I never thought I would see it so obviously in action.

People are stupid. Really, extremely, window-lickingly pant-shittingly stupid. That's really all there is to it.

173 vinnievin  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 1:28:47pm

rachel maddow here now? looks like the neckbrace is off.

174 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 1:33:59pm

re: #173 vinnievin

rachel maddow here now? looks like the neckbrace is off.

Play the puck, not the player. Do you disagree with the facts presented?

175 Obdicut  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 1:34:24pm

re: #172 Fozzie Bear

I just want to note there's nothing really stupid about licking a window. Licking your finger is stupider.

176 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 1:35:42pm

re: #173 vinnievin

Don't you have a bridge you should be lurking under? Troll.

177 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 1:50:00pm

re: #174 Fozzie Bear

Play the puck, not the player. Do you disagree with the facts presented?

Fozzie what we have here is a sock.

178 vinnievin  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 1:54:07pm

Umm, Dark Falcon I'm not going to spend an hour on this site getting into a debate with you - call me a troll if you like, but I think you should go to [Link: www.urbandictionary.com...] and study the definition a little more closely. In fact, I would offer that you labeling me that makes you more of one than me. And it's not that I don't enjoy a good debate - it's that you didn't even attempt to begin one.

Fozzie, I'm not chasing that puck. I can't listen to Rachel Maddow any more than I can listen to Rush Limbaugh. I have read a lot of stuff on this site over the years - currently I am trying to get my 50 posts in so I will be able to rate articles again, which is why I still come here in the first place. Those links are priceless.

To all people who will (or will not) take the time to reply - I just made a comment. That is what the 'comments' section is for. I did not incite hatred or violence. I did not even address the content of the article. Personally, I am not a big fan of any kind of supremacy, whether it be racial religious gender or any of the definitives.

One thing I do recognize, having spent 14 years in media and 5 of it working for what was the largest media conglomerate in the world, is when multiple facts are left on the cutting room floor in order to make a specific point. It is something that the journalist sourced does extremely well.

If I had to clarify, and thank you for asking me to do so, is that when I see Rachel Maddow linked as a source, I have the same revulsion as if someone were linking a Rush Limbaugh monologue. For me, it does not help me understand the argument. It helps me find the volume knob.

Now let me reiterate - I do not support condone or even tolerate white supremacy. I am merely saying that quoting air america and newsmax will have an equal effect on me - I will throw up in my mouth a little bit.

Nothing but love from the middle!

179 Lidane  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 1:56:50pm

re: #178 vinnievin

If I had to clarify, and thank you for asking me to do so, is that when I see Rachel Maddow linked as a source, I have the same revulsion as if someone were linking a Rush Limbaugh monologue. For me, it does not help me understand the argument. It helps me find the volume knob.

You're seriously equating Rachel Maddow with Limbaugh?

GAZE.

180 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 1:57:14pm

re: #178 vinnievin

That's alot of words to completely fail to address even a single factual point.

Kudos, troll.

181 wrenchwench  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 1:59:48pm

re: #178 vinnievin

having spent 14 years in media and 5 of it working for what was the largest media conglomerate in the world

Cognito?

182 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 2:00:19pm

re: #178 vinnievin

Umm, Dark Falcon I'm not going to spend an hour on this site getting into a debate with you - call me a troll if you like, but I think you should go to [Link: www.urbandictionary.com...] and study the definition a little more closely. In fact, I would offer that you labeling me that makes you more of one than me. And it's not that I don't enjoy a good debate - it's that you didn't even attempt to begin one.

You came in with the words "rachel maddow here now? looks like the neckbrace is off." When people show up with an ad hominum attack, that usually means they are trolls.

183 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 2:01:57pm

re: #181 wrenchwench

Cognito?

He's had a sockpuppet before, but Charles booted him out again after one post. And this one's registration date predates that sock. So I'm pretty sure this is not Cognito.

184 vinnievin  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 2:19:45pm

re: #180 Fozzie Bear

Fozzie,

This is likely to be the last time I respond to you directly. Don't feel bad if I ignore you outright - I want to use my 50 comments on thoughtful debate, should I actually make it through them.

If you cannot understand my point, let me restate it in what I consider no uncertain terms.

If you cannot see how far to the left RM is, then you are probably equally aligned. Much the same as if you think Rush is speaking to your heart - you are more than just slightly aligned to the conservative mindset.

I would appreciate this argument more if the source were something a little more moderate. I can't even get into the meat of this story because of the source.

Peace out.

185 wrenchwench  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 2:24:37pm

re: #184 vinnievin

Are you trying to rack up 50 comments so you can start dinging? I think that's no longer necessary. Have you tried it?

I would appreciate this argument more if the source were something a little more moderate. I can't even get into the meat of this story because of the source.

Did the information in the video clip get cooties from Maddow? Are you cootiephobic?

186 vinnievin  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 2:28:30pm

re: #185 wrenchwench

She has cooties? I had no idea. I try not to discriminate due to medical conditions.

Maybe I just can't stand the sound of her voice. I'm just making a comment. I'll spend a few more minutes defending my right to do so and then I'll drive through. Thanks for letting me hang out and wax poetic with you guys.

For the record, I get the following message when trying to do what I am trying to do:
Error: You must post at least 50 comments before you can rate links.

187 wrenchwench  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 2:32:01pm

re: #186 vinnievin

Thanks for the info. The 50-post thing has gone back and forth.

By the way, it's a privilege, not a right.

REMEMBER: posting comments at LGF is a privilege, not a right. Abuse that privilege, and your account will be blocked.

The "whiplash" line of posts could be seen as abusive. It's at least kinda rude.

188 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 2:33:19pm

re: #187 wrenchwench

Thanks for the info. The 50-post thing has gone back and forth.

By the way, it's a privilege, not a right.

The "whiplash" line of posts could be seen as abusive. It's at least kinda rude.

Quite Concur.

189 wrenchwench  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 2:36:36pm

re: #188 Dark_Falcon

Quite Concur.

Oooh, I got a "Quite concur" from Dark_Falcon! Thank you!

And I think the thing about 50 posts needed might be a special set up for this vinnie person. I just witnessed an upding (in the Spy) from a hatchling who has no comments. (Is it a hatchling yet if it has no comments?)

190 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 2:36:52pm

re: #186 vinnievin

She has cooties? I had no idea. I try not to discriminate due to medical conditions.

Maybe I just can't stand the sound of her voice. I'm just making a comment. I'll spend a few more minutes defending my right to do so and then I'll drive through. Thanks for letting me hang out and wax poetic with you guys.

For the record, I get the following message when trying to do what I am trying to do:
Error: You must post at least 50 comments before you can rate links.

Look I get that you see Maddow as a left wing version of Rush. There are two major substinative differences though. She is telling the truth and has evidence to back herself up with.

So rather than getting all up in arms about your rights to shoot off your mouth, how about you talk facts.

Either these neo-nazi types were involved in the bill or they were not.

How about we address that?

Why do you think they were not involved? If they were involved, why does that not bother you?

191 vinnievin  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 2:40:13pm

re: #187 wrenchwench

I can see that. If you are a moderator, we can take this conversation offline and I am completely willing to discuss it at length. If not, I'd like to just make a note of your perspective and offer that I will try to be more eloquent when I try to be cute with my observations. No hard feelings. I'll stick around a few minutes longer if you want to go back and forth some more. These comments of troll sockpuppet or whatever else don't really bother me. It is merely a side effect of being outspoken.

192 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 2:40:29pm

re: #189 wrenchwench

Oooh, I got a "Quite concur" from Dark_Falcon! Thank you!

And I think the thing about 50 posts needed might be a special set up for this vinnie person. I just witnessed an upding (in the Spy) from a hatchling who has no comments. (Is it a hatchling yet if it has no comments?)

I think he just registered at a time when the restriction was in effect. He may still need to get 50 comments to rate, while newly registered lizards are free of that rule. Just a guess, I may be wrong.

193 tradewind  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 2:48:29pm

re: #168 Fozzie Bear
It would be surprising, since the offending legislation is supported by roughly 70% of Arizona voters, and also...... it's very likely that a large number of the protesting segment, while highly visible, is not (legally) able to vote.

194 vinnievin  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 2:49:10pm

re: #190 LudwigVanQuixote

Although I appreciate your attempt to debate the facts of this specific story, and I do not wish to diminish the passion with which you feel about it, I am not prepared to do it. I am very uninformed about it, and that is complicated by the fact that I can't get ten seconds into that video without wanting to leave the site. I felt strongly enough about it to leave a comment saying so. But I will not insult your intelligence by acting like I have enough information to make a stance for or against this story. Neo-Nazis bad. I think I can agree with you there.

Perhaps we can verbally wrestle over another topic. I still have over 40 comments left. See you around!

195 wrenchwench  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 2:50:22pm

re: #191 vinnievin

I wouldn't characterize your participation to this point as "outspoken". I'll stick with "rude".

I don't do "conversation offline". Nothing personal.

196 CuriousLurker  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 2:54:04pm

re: #192 Dark_Falcon

I think he just registered at a time when the restriction was in effect. He may still need to get 50 comments to rate, while newly registered lizards are free of that rule. Just a guess, I may be wrong.

When I registered earlier this month I was able to ding comments right away, but rating articles posted by Charles wasn't allowed until after I'd made 50 posts.

197 Obdicut  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 2:54:38pm

re: #193 tradewind

Can I see the data for that claim, please?

198 wrenchwench  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 2:57:16pm

re: #196 CuriousLurker

When I registered earlier this month I was able to ding comments right away, but rating articles posted by Charles wasn't allowed until after I'd made 50 posts.

Ah, more info, thanks! How about links? Have you tried to rate any of those?

199 Querent  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 2:57:45pm

re: #6 Charles

and i'm sure many of us lizards are glad to have been so pleasantly surprised.

(i know i'm one.)

200 CuriousLurker  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 3:04:59pm

re: #198 wrenchwench

Ah, more info, thanks! How about links? Have you tried to rate any of those?

You're welcome! Yep, I have rated a couple of links. It worked the first time I did it, but unfortunately I don't remember if that was before or after my first 50 posts.

201 Lidane  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 3:06:31pm

re: #194 vinnievin

I am very uninformed about it, and that is complicated by the fact that I can't get ten seconds into that video without wanting to leave the site.

What a pathetic excuse. Maddow is an articulate, educated woman --Ph.D. and all -- and she shows her work when she presents an argument. If you can't even sit through a six-and-a-half minute segment of her show in order to comment on the information she's presenting, then you're better off not commenting at all.

I can't respect anyone without enough of a backbone to sit through something they might not like in order to comment on it. If I can sit through Fitna in order to discuss it, then watching something far, far more sane, like Rachel Maddow, should be a walk in the park for anyone. Get a spine, grow a pair, and watch the video at the top of this thread, or STFU.

202 vinnievin  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 3:14:41pm

re: #201 Lidane

Well gee, it seems 'rude' is par for the course.

203 Liberal Classic  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 3:31:42pm

Wow

Arizona lawmaker circulated white separatist e-mail
[Link: www.usatoday.com...]

It says the "media masters" force on the public their view of "a world in which every voice proclaims the equality of the races, the inerrant nature of the Jewish 'Holocaust' tale, the wickedness of attempting to halt the flood of non-White aliens pouring across our borders ... ."
204 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 3:37:44pm

re: #160 Spare O'Lake

1. Freeing up DEA manpower is no substitute for effective physical barrier(s) along the border, yet you have yet to mention the words fence or wall.

Upon what do you base this? Sections of fence have certainly been put up. What has their effectiveness been?

205 bklynkid  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 4:08:14pm

If you do not live there, don't pass judgments.

206 Obdicut  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 4:11:03pm

re: #205 bklynkid

I live in the United States.

207 jamesfirecat  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 5:37:02pm

re: #205 bklynkid

If you do not live there, don't pass judgments.

By that logic Lincoln had no right to condemn slavery since he didn't realize just how much it would hurt the south's economy if he gave it up....

208 Cato the Elder  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 6:00:44pm

re: #160 Spare O'Lake

1. Freeing up DEA manpower is no substitute for effective physical barrier(s) along the border, yet you have yet to mention the words fence or wall.
2. Again, there was, is and will remain an UNLIMITED number of hungry, desperate folks who will keep pouring across the porous border regardless of how many temporary work permits are issued. The border must therefore be sufficiently secured to keep out those desperados.

While we're at it, let's take all those hungry, desperate folks who were born here in America but obviously don't deserve to live here and put them across the border with the other hungry, desperate folks.

Cleanse America of losers now!

209 RogueOne  Wed, Apr 28, 2010 4:34:20am

re: #201 Lidane

What a pathetic excuse. Maddow is an articulate, educated woman --Ph.D. and all -- and she shows her work when she presents an argument. If you can't even sit through a six-and-a-half minute segment of her show in order to comment on the information she's presenting, then you're better off not commenting at all.

If she could learn to cry on cue she could be MSNBC's version of Beck. The reason the AZ bill was passed and signed into law is because the people of AZ wanted it. There isn't a conspiracy of birthers behind the scenes pulling strings to sneak this in, this is something that AZ voters have wanted for decades. Why do people think Sheriff Joe is so popular after all the crazy stupid shit he's pulled? Because he's seen as tough on illegal immigration. He can literally get away with murder in that state because all they care about is putting a stop to illegal immigration. Maddow is an idiot.


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