Quote of the Day

Wingnuts • Views: 2,519

Rep. Peter King gets today’s prize, as he blithely advocates violating the rights of an American citizen.

“I hope that [Attorney General Eric] Holder did discuss this with the intelligence community. If they believe they got enough from him, how much more should they get? Did they Mirandize him? I know he’s an American citizen but still,” King told POLITICO.

People like Rep. King are usually the same ones who claim that the rights of Americans are granted by God, not by the government. When it comes to taking away rights, though, just about any old Republican can handle that job.

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239 comments
1 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Tue, May 4, 2010 9:52:16am

Remember, before all the details came out and the suspect was thought to be a middle-aged white guy, Republicans were calm cool and collected. Now that it’s some guy with a funny name and different color skin they don’t even think he should be mirandized.

2 darthstar  Tue, May 4, 2010 9:52:31am

So it’s not the terrorists who hate our freedoms, it’s Rep. Steve King.

3 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 4, 2010 9:53:05am

Little Green Footballs and Washington Monthly have the same quote of the day….

[Link: www.washingtonmonthly.com…]


Excellent…. all is proceeding as I have foreseen….

4 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 4, 2010 9:54:49am

Just wait until some lefty proposes arresting the Oathkeepers or other anti-government militias without Constitutional protections.

5 darthstar  Tue, May 4, 2010 9:55:37am

This guy became an American citizen last year. How long until Fox & Friends claim that President Obama is turning terrorists into American citizens to protect them? (Jesus…I’ll bet they quote me as a “some people are saying” source now.)

6 political lunatic  Tue, May 4, 2010 9:55:45am

If he was just a random white guy who is a citizen of the US and a part of a far right militia attempting this attack, nobody on either end of the spectrum would be advocating for his constitutional rights to be revoked. But, he’s a scary Muslin, so he has no rights like real Christian Murkans would, according to these people.

7 Four More Tears  Tue, May 4, 2010 9:56:11am

re: #5 darthstar

This guy became an American citizen last year. How long until Fox & Friends claim that President Obama is turning terrorists into American citizens to protect them? (Jesus…I’ll bet they quote me as a “some people are saying” source now.)

Way to celebrate one year of citizenship, ain’t it?

*spit*

8 Stanghazi  Tue, May 4, 2010 9:56:37am

re: #2 darthstar

So it’s not the terrorists who hate our freedoms, it’s Rep. Steve King.

And Sen. McCain as well.

McCain: ‘Serious mistake’ if car bombing suspect was Mirandized

The Hill

9 lawhawk  Tue, May 4, 2010 9:56:43am

re: #2 darthstar

So it’s not the terrorists who hate our freedoms, it’s Rep. Steve Peter King.

10 teleskiguy  Tue, May 4, 2010 9:57:15am

From the same guy who said

” … we do this with livestock all the time.” Steve King, referring to applying electric shocks to human beings.


This guy is pretty nutty, dude.

11 webevintage  Tue, May 4, 2010 9:57:38am

Charles, it is Peter King from NY who made this stupid comment, not the other nut Steve King from Iowa.

12 cliffster  Tue, May 4, 2010 9:57:45am

wtf, really?

13 HoosierHoops  Tue, May 4, 2010 9:58:32am

The DOJ Presser is minutes away

14 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 4, 2010 9:58:43am

John McCain was almost as bad. He said we should just kind of stretch out the pre-Miranda interrogations as long as possible.

But then, McCain’s running for his life as a non-maverick these days.

15 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 4, 2010 9:59:28am

re: #8 Stanley Sea

The Hill


We loves the bill! We hates the bill! We loves the bill… hates the bill!

That’s an unfair joke…it’s an unfair joke because Gollum is an old man, corrupted by his quest for ultimate power and…oh.

Jon Stewart.

(the clip [Link: crooksandliars.com…] )

16 webevintage  Tue, May 4, 2010 9:59:42am

re: #13 HoosierHoops

The DOJ Presser is minutes away

I hope if Holder speaks that he is appropriately pissed off for some of the posters here…..

17 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:00:20am

re: #11 webevintage

Right, I caught the typo a minute ago.

18 iossarian  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:00:30am

Peter King is the same guy who was a supporter of the IRA’s campaign in the UK. Funny how things work out sometimes.

19 webevintage  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:02:20am

re: #17 Charles

Right, I caught the typo a minute ago.

Meh, Steve King is such a freaking nutjob that I just assumed he was the Rep. King who said it.

20 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:03:51am

The Times Square Bomb Plot: A Taliban Connection?

Investigators are poring over every facet of Faisal Shahzad’s life to see if the Pakistani-American man, who was arrested in connection with the Times Square car-bomb plot, acted alone — as he reportedly claims — or was part of a terrorist cell. It’s still not known if Shahzad is a member of the Pakistani Taliban or any other militant group. He had reportedly returned to the U.S. in February after spending a number of months in Pakistan, where he traveled after becoming a naturalized American in April 2009. Pakistani media are reporting that Shahzad is from Karachi and spent significant time in Peshawar, the capital of North-West Frontier Province, where the government is waging a fierce war against Taliban militants. A Pakistani government source, speaking on condition of anonymity, told TIME on Tuesday that the suspect had ties with militants while in Pakistan. “He was here at a training camp,” the source said. The source also claimed that members of Shahzad’s family were arrested in Karachi on Tuesday morning.

An earlier claim by the Pakistani Taliban that it was behind the abortive attack in New York City was greeted with some skepticism when it was made known over the weekend. Now the question is: Should the claim be taken more seriously?

21 McSpiff  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:04:38am

re: #18 iossarian

In his own words:

In the 1980s, King frequently traveled to Northern Ireland to meet with IRA members.[5] In 1982, speaking at a pro-IRA rally in Nassau County, New York, King said: “We must pledge ourselves to support those brave men and women who this very moment are carrying forth the struggle against British imperialism in the streets of Belfast and Derry.”

This particular stupid fuck obviously can’t draw parallels between what almost happened in time square and what did happen in places like Omagh

22 Cato the Elder  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:06:21am

Our own dear Tradewind made the same comment last night: “Did they Mirandize him?”

For which I called her a troll.

I think I was too kind.

23 teleskiguy  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:06:35am

Oh man! Who could forget Peter King’s awesome commentary on Michael Jackson!

24 Four More Tears  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:07:56am

re: #18 iossarian

re: #21 McSpiff

Wow, I never about this before. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

(No snark involved.)

25 Four More Tears  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:09:48am

re: #22 Cato the Elder

Our own dear Tradewind made the same comment last night: “Did they Mirandize him?”

For which I called her a troll.

I think I was too kind.

My overnight question still stands unanswered:

Is it okay with the rest of America if we try this guy here in New York?

26 Aceofwhat?  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:10:17am

re: #22 Cato the Elder

Our own dear Tradewind made the same comment last night: “Did they Mirandize him?”

yikes

27 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:10:41am

re: #25 JasonA

My overnight question still stands unanswered:

Is it okay with the rest of America if we try this guy here in New York?

He’s an American citizen. I support it.

28 Kruk  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:10:41am

re: #3 jamesfirecat

Excellent… all is proceeding as I have foreseen…

Your overconfidence is your weakness….

29 Cato the Elder  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:10:45am

re: #23 teleskiguy

Oh man! Who could forget Peter King’s awesome commentary on Michael Jackson!

Well, there I have to say, even a stopped clock…

30 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:11:02am

re: #25 JasonA

My overnight question still stands unanswered:

Is it okay with the rest of America if we try this guy here in New York?

Yes. And hopefully he’ll be living in Denver soon.

31 wrenchwench  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:11:49am

Miranda was born in Arizona. I’m finding irony in that.

32 Aceofwhat?  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:11:55am

re: #25 JasonA

My overnight question still stands unanswered:

Is it okay with the rest of America if we try this guy here in New York?

we should do whatever we normally do with people who commit serious crimes in NYC and then try to flee.

33 martinsmithy  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:14:17am

Amazingly, even Glenn Beck doesn’t agree with King, or with the other Fox News crazies. [Link: www.huffingtonpost.com…]

34 Liberal Classic  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:14:46am

re: #25 JasonA

My overnight question still stands unanswered:

Is it okay with the rest of America if we try this guy here in New York?

His attorney will probably request a change of venue.

35 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:15:30am

If this plot really did come from Al Qaeda or the Taliban, their capacity to launch effective terror attacks has obviously degraded enormously.

Imagine the lameness of putting your life on the line to commit a murderous attack in the heart of New York City, but failing to make sure the bomb will actually go off.

If it had blown up, it would have been very bad, of course. But if the descriptions of the device are accurate, it was a pile of junk, highly unlikely to explode.

36 McSpiff  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:15:40am

re: #24 JasonA

re: #21 McSpiff

Wow, I never about this before. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

(No snark involved.)

The IRA are some seriously evil people, that for some reason were acceptable for some americans to support. The entire thing really is a black mark on US anti-terrorism efforts I feel, especially when you look at the volume of American made arms they were able to purchase. Can’t help but feel to a certain degree that the US only got serious about terrorism when it landed on its doorstep.

37 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:16:09am

re: #33 martinsmithy

Amazingly, even Glenn Beck doesn’t agree with King, or with the other Fox News crazies. [Link: www.huffingtonpost.com…]

When Glenn Beck is saying that you’ve gone to far…. I think you have gone too far.

It’s like when Tom Tancredo says your immigration stance is too brutal… huh… wonder if we’ll see Beck recanting his statements the way Tancredo did?

38 Obdicut  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:17:21am

re: #36 McSpiff

The IRA blew up a phone booth that my brother used every day in London. I was living in Boston at the time and had a hard time dealing with the provo-funders after that. So it took it landing on my brother’s doorstep to make it a reality for me.

39 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:17:52am

re: #36 McSpiff

The IRA are some seriously evil people, that for some reason were acceptable for some americans to support. The entire thing really is a black mark on US anti-terrorism efforts I feel, especially when you look at the volume of American made arms they were able to purchase. Can’t help but feel to a certain degree that the US only got serious about terrorism when it landed on its doorstep.

If you want my two cents it was probably in part because the IRA was rebelling against the UK which made some people all misty eyed and nostalgic for when we stood up to the big bad British Empire….

40 garhighway  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:18:09am

re: #34 Liberal Classic

His attorney will probably request a change of venue.

Requesting ain’t getting.

And he might not want a change: NY juries are cosmopolitan. That case could get transferred to someplace like, say, Mississippi. It’s an interesting tactical question.

41 Political Atheist  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:18:50am

re: #35 Charles

I was still wondering if the undie bomber peed his pants and ruined his bomb. This guy was no suicide bomber, but had potentially six months of training. The terrorists are down to ill trained ill equipped compatriots. This guy may well have rushed the job. Leaving the clock in plain sight shows either a hurry, or mixed emotions, just as my own speculation.

42 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:18:50am

Two arrests made in Pakistan in connection with the bombing attempt…

43 Kruk  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:18:51am

re: #37 jamesfirecat

So two elected representatives are advocating denying a citizen his rights, and Glenn Beck supports upholding those rights? Tell me I’m not in Bizzaro World.

44 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:18:55am

re: #40 garhighway

Requesting ain’t getting.

And he might not want a change: NY juries are cosmopolitan. That case could get transferred to someplace like, say, Mississippi. It’s an interesting tactical question.

HIT THE CHANGE OF VENUE BUTTON!

OH NOO… TEXAS!

45 Four More Tears  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:19:14am

re: #35 Charles

If this plot really did come from Al Qaeda or the Taliban, their capacity to launch effective terror attacks has obviously degraded enormously.

Imagine the lameness of putting your life on the line to commit a murderous attack in the heart of New York City, but failing to make sure the bomb will actually go off.

If it had blown up, it would have been very bad, of course. But if the descriptions of the device are accurate, it was a pile of junk, highly unlikely to explode.

People like Jon Stewart have been coming down on the media for being too descriptive of what wrong with this bomb, but honestly… I’m confident anyone with half a brain could learn how to build a better one after a couple of hours online.

And the VIN thing… jeez, watch some CSI and you’ll know that there are numbers all over your car.

46 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:19:21am

Dear God. People, the equal protection of the law applies even to very bad people we do not like, and wish would drop dead! These are the RULES! Why is this so hard?

47 cliffster  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:19:22am

re: #34 Liberal Classic

His attorney will probably request a change of venue.

Where is he going to get a better trial? Let’s try him in Alabama. Careful what you wish for.

48 Obdicut  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:19:53am

re: #35 Charles

I’d like to note that bullshit attempts at terrorism like this make me not in the least bit more scared at moving to NYC in a few months.

I am not afraid, you dumb fuckers. I’m going to eat at a nice Jewish deli right after I get off the plane.

49 sattv4u2  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:20:08am

re: #38 Obdicut

The IRA blew up a phone booth that my brother used every day in London. I was living in Boston at the time and had a hard time dealing with the provo-funders after that. So it took it landing on my brother’s doorstep to make it a reality for me.

I take it you never spent much time in Southie (Boston) prior to the incident. If you had spent any time in many of the taverns along Broadway you most likely would have encountered people that would have turned your stomach

50 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:20:40am

re: #7 JasonA

Way to celebrate one year of citizenship, ain’t it?

*spit*

That’s a hell of a lot of paperwork to go through just so you can fail to blow up a car bomb.

51 Obdicut  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:21:02am

re: #49 sattv4u2

I never went to Southie, no. I didn’t feel any need to go looking for trouble. But I worked at a semi-Irish bar, so I saw enough provo-boosters anyway.

52 Four More Tears  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:21:09am

re: #43 Kruk

So two elected representatives are advocating denying a citizen his rights, and Glenn Beck supports upholding those rights? Tell me I’m not in Bizzaro World.

You’re not, but after looking at Beck’s words I think he’s using it to bolster the argument that non-citizens shouldn’t be granted these rights.

53 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:21:27am

re: #8 Stanley Sea

The Hill

I do not get this. You have to Mirandize. It is not optional.

You know how people say that ‘it’s not the Ten Suggestions’? It’s not the Miranda Good Idea.

54 webevintage  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:21:39am

Whoa, the DOJ presser is getting the “special report” treatment with the graphics and Brian Williams even.

55 sattv4u2  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:21:48am

re: #39 jamesfirecat

If you want my two cents it was probably in part because the IRA was rebelling against the UK which made some people all misty eyed and nostalgic for when we stood up to the big bad British Empire…

Had nothing to do with that, actually. The fund rasiers and arms runners in and around the Boston area at that time were for the most part Irish nationals in the states to do just that, fund raise and run arms for ‘the troubles”

56 Kruk  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:21:55am

re: #52 JasonA

You’re not, but after looking at Beck’s words I think he’s using it to bolster the argument that non-citizens shouldn’t be granted these rights.

Ah. And the World makes sense once more….

57 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:22:11am

re: #53 SanFranciscoZionist

I do not get this. You have to Mirandize. It is not optional.

You know how people say that ‘it’s not the Ten Suggestions’? It’s not the Miranda Good Idea.

These G-d recommended rights….

58 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:22:19am

re: #18 iossarian

Peter King is the same guy who was a supporter of the IRA’s campaign in the UK. Funny how things work out sometimes.

Godalmighty, you’re kidding, right?

59 webevintage  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:22:27am

re: #48 Obdicut

I’d like to note that bullshit attempts at terrorism like this make me not in the least bit more scared at moving to NYC in a few months.

I am not afraid, you dumb fuckers. I’m going to eat at a nice Jewish deli right after I get off the plane.

Fucking A!

60 sattv4u2  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:22:59am

re: #51 Obdicut

I never went to Southie, no. I didn’t feel any need to go looking for trouble. But I worked at a semi-Irish bar, so I saw enough provo-boosters anyway.

Don’t get me wrong. Southie was (and is) in of itself a wonderful place. it’s just that it was a magnet and hub for IRA sympathizers

61 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:23:03am

re: #25 JasonA

My overnight question still stands unanswered:

Is it okay with the rest of America if we try this guy here in New York?

Can he get a fair trial in the city?

62 McSpiff  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:23:18am

re: #36 McSpiff

Hell, I can sympathize with elements of the republican cause. But never, ever, ever the republicans if that makes sense. And oddly enough I’ve been accused of being pro-Provo… Some people confuse knowledge with support.

63 Four More Tears  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:24:01am

re: #61 SanFranciscoZionist

Can he get a fair trial in the city?

Probably not even if you filled the jury box with Pakistani NY cab drivers…

64 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:24:15am

re: #35 Charles

If this plot really did come from Al Qaeda or the Taliban, their capacity to launch effective terror attacks has obviously degraded enormously.

Imagine the lameness of putting your life on the line to commit a murderous attack in the heart of New York City, but failing to make sure the bomb will actually go off.

If it had blown up, it would have been very bad, of course. But if the descriptions of the device are accurate, it was a pile of junk, highly unlikely to explode.

It might have gotten organic nonexplosive mulch on people’s nice theater coats, though. I hate it when that happens.

65 McSpiff  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:24:23am

re: #39 jamesfirecat

If you want my two cents it was probably in part because the IRA was rebelling against the UK which made some people all misty eyed and nostalgic for when we stood up to the big bad British Empire…

Whoops meant to reply to this comment, PIMF:


Hell, I can sympathize with elements of the republican cause. But never, ever, ever the republicans if that makes sense. And oddly enough I’ve been accused of being pro-Provo… Some people confuse knowledge with support.
66 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:25:11am

The Times Square Bomb Plot: A Taliban Connection?

A Pakistani government source, speaking on condition of anonymity, told TIME on Tuesday that the suspect had ties with militants while in Pakistan. “He was here at a training camp,” the source said. The source also claimed that members of Shahzad’s family were arrested in Karachi on Tuesday morning.

67 astronmr20  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:25:20am

re: #35 Charles

If this plot really did come from Al Qaeda or the Taliban, their capacity to launch effective terror attacks has obviously degraded enormously.

Imagine the lameness of putting your life on the line to commit a murderous attack in the heart of New York City, but failing to make sure the bomb will actually go off.

If it had blown up, it would have been very bad, of course. But if the descriptions of the device are accurate, it was a pile of junk, highly unlikely to explode.

Absolutely.

Although what scares the crap out of me is the prospect of this being a “probing” incident.

68 drcordell  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:25:23am

That quote from King is the most disturbing thing I’ve read in a long time. It’s so unbelievably apparent that the missing subtext to his quote practically leaps off the page “I know he’s an American citizen, but still (HE’S A MUSLIM.

69 Obdicut  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:25:57am

re: #60 sattv4u2

Southie is way too anti-semitic for me to consider hanging out there.

70 Kruk  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:26:03am

re: #62 McSpiff

Hell, I can sympathize with elements of the republican cause. But never, ever, ever the republicans if that makes sense. And oddly enough I’ve been accused of being pro-Provo… Some people confuse knowledge with support.

It’s worth noting that both Scotland and Northern Ireland have roughly the same degree of autonomy within the UK. Scotland got it peacefully, and Northern Ireland after decades of shootings and bombings. What a waste.

71 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:26:19am

re: #63 JasonA

Probably not even if you filled the jury box with Pakistani NY cab drivers…

“It’s a long way home from Guantanamo
So I need a job
and I want to be a taxicab driver…
TAXICAB DRIVER!

(From Cap Steps to the tune of “Paper Back Writer”)

72 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:26:19am

re: #42 Charles

Two arrests made in Pakistan in connection with the bombing attempt…

I was leaning towards Sudden Jihad Syndrome on this story, but it appears that may not be so.

73 Aceofwhat?  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:26:26am

re: #64 SanFranciscoZionist

It might have gotten organic nonexplosive mulch on people’s nice theater coats, though. I hate it when that happens.

And it was supposed to blow at the end of the Lion King, IIRC…

74 McSpiff  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:26:34am

re: #63 JasonA

Probably not even if you filled the jury box with Pakistani NY cab drivers…

Would you want to be known as the Pakistan who was soft on terrorism in NYC? Put me in that situation and I guarantee id find him guilty, regardless of any ‘facts’ or ‘evidence’.

75 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:27:13am

re: #47 cliffster

Where is he going to get a better trial? Let’s try him in Alabama. Careful what you wish for.

Outside the state probably isn’t going to happen, but I’d apply for a change of venue in New York itself, preferably to a small city without too many NYC commuters.

76 drcordell  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:27:26am

re: #61 SanFranciscoZionist

Can he get a fair trial in the city?

Just as fair as anywhere else in the country. Especially considering the bomb was in Times Square, so there wasn’t an actual NYC resident within 5 blocks of it.

77 Four More Tears  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:27:52am

re: #74 McSpiff

Would you want to be known as the Pakistan who was soft on terrorism in NYC? Put me in that situation and I guarantee id find him guilty, regardless of any ‘facts’ or ‘evidence’.

f you want to be on a jury you should probably keep that to yourself :)

78 garhighway  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:28:04am

re: #61 SanFranciscoZionist

Can he get a fair trial in the city?

I think so. And the burden is on him to show otherwise.

On the “citizens get trials, others don’t” meme, I note this language:

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

Ladies and gentlemen, the Sixth Amendment to the United States Constitution. Note that it does not limit the right of trial by jury to citizens. And it does seem to like trials being held where the crime was committed.

79 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:28:06am

re: #48 Obdicut

I’d like to note that bullshit attempts at terrorism like this make me not in the least bit more scared at moving to NYC in a few months.

I am not afraid, you dumb fuckers. I’m going to eat at a nice Jewish deli right after I get off the plane.

Go to Katz’s. You can make three meals from one of their sandwiches.

80 Aceofwhat?  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:28:09am

re: #67 astronmr20

Absolutely.

Although what scares the crap out of me is the prospect of this being a “probing” incident.

eh. i can strap a betamax recorder to a homemade rocket in my backyard, fire it towards the moon and get more results from said ‘probe’ than they’re going to get from the mulch bomber.

81 Four More Tears  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:28:19am

re: #76 drcordell

Just as fair as anywhere else in the country. Especially considering the bomb was in Times Square, so there wasn’t an actual NYC resident within 5 blocks of it.

So true…

82 Kruk  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:28:46am

re: #68 drcordell

That quote from King is the most disturbing thing I’ve read in a long time. It’s so unbelievably apparent that the missing subtext to his quote practically leaps off the page “I know he’s an American citizen, but still (HE’S A MUSLIM.

Yikes. I admit, I was wondering if King was fantasising about one set of legal protections for naturalised citizens and one for native born, but the whole Muslim subtext went right over my head.

83 drcordell  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:29:56am

re: #82 Kruk

Yikes. I admit, I was wondering if King was fantasising about one set of legal protections for naturalised citizens and one for native born, but the whole Muslim subtext went right over my head.

I just don’t see what the hell else the “but still” could possibly be referring to.

84 astronmr20  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:30:50am

re: #80 Aceofwhat?

eh. i can strap a betamax recorder to a homemade rocket in my backyard, fire it towards the moon and get more results from said ‘probe’ than they’re going to get from the mulch bomber.

Crowd dispersal, reaction to suspicious vehicle by citizens, reaction of suspicious vehicle by police, evacuation methods, crowd control, emergency/ cleanup response, etc.

Hey I still think it’s kind of far fetched, but it’s possible.

85 cliffster  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:31:25am

re: #82 Kruk

He’s talking with his sphincter. It was just flat out stupid.

86 Four More Tears  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:31:33am

re: #76 drcordell

Just as fair as anywhere else in the country. Especially considering the bomb was in Times Square, so there wasn’t an actual NYC resident within 5 blocks of it.

Also, my favorite line from Jon Stewart last night:

“This event has raised lots of question, including who’s the culprit, what’s their motive, and how did they find a parking spot on 45th Street on Saturday night?”

87 Cato the Elder  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:32:36am

re: #35 Charles

If this plot really did come from Al Qaeda or the Taliban, their capacity to launch effective terror attacks has obviously degraded enormously.

Imagine the lameness of putting your life on the line to commit a murderous attack in the heart of New York City, but failing to make sure the bomb will actually go off.

If it had blown up, it would have been very bad, of course. But if the descriptions of the device are accurate, it was a pile of junk, highly unlikely to explode.

Has the thought occurred to anyone else that someone, somewhere may be toying with us a bit?

88 drcordell  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:32:36am

re: #86 JasonA

Also, my favorite line from Jon Stewart last night:

“This event has raised lots of question, including who’s the culprit, what’s their motive, and how did they find a parking spot on 45th Street on Saturday night?”

I’d settle for being able to afford having a car in NYC period.

89 Obdicut  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:32:53am

re: #84 astronmr20

You’re giving them rather too much credit. Not to mention all of that is a pretty stochastic process that you couldn’t depend on happening the same way every time, since humans are running it and will likewise be looking at their own methods and likewise improving them.

This sort of ‘probing’, if it was anything like that, would help us a lot more than them.

90 McSpiff  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:33:21am

re: #70 Kruk

It’s worth noting that both Scotland and Northern Ireland have roughly the same degree of autonomy within the UK. Scotland got it peacefully, and Northern Ireland after decades of shootings and bombings. What a waste.

Agreed, but you also need to look at the historical position of Ireland and Scotland in the United Kingdom. Northern Ireland was a ticking time bomb for a lot of reasons. But its important to note that its suspected that the IRA/PIRA killed more republicans than the Brits or the Loyalists. Just a bunch of brutal, brutal thugs. Especially their counter-intelligence units. Killing widows and leaving their children orphaned, etc.

Sorry for dragging this thread a bit off topic y’all…

91 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:33:27am

re: #84 astronmr20

Crowd dispersal, reaction to suspicious vehicle by citizens, reaction of suspicious vehicle by police, evacuation methods, crowd control, emergency/ cleanup response, etc.

Hey I still think it’s kind of far fetched, but it’s possible.

This just in….

WE’RE ALL STILL DOOMED!

92 Obdicut  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:33:41am

re: #87 Cato the Elder

Most human activity is actually part of a very long con run by John Malkovich.

93 Four More Tears  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:34:21am

re: #88 drcordell

I’d settle for being able to afford having a car in NYC period.

Good luck with that.

94 sattv4u2  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:35:16am

re: #87 Cato the Elder

Has the thought occurred to anyone else that someone, somewhere may be toying with us a bit?

Crossed my mind for a moment, but why risk arrest and imprisonment if it were a prank or dry run?

95 darthstar  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:35:29am

re: #9 lawhawk

Oops…thanks. Peter King.

96 cliffster  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:35:36am

hehe, “mulch bomber”. Brilliant.

97 drcordell  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:36:14am

re: #93 JasonA

Good luck with that.

Just took a new job offer, tendered my two-weeks notice yesterday. Well on my way!

98 Cato the Elder  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:37:17am

re: #36 McSpiff

The IRA are some seriously evil people, that for some reason were acceptable for some americans to support. The entire thing really is a black mark on US anti-terrorism efforts I feel, especially when you look at the volume of American made arms they were able to purchase. Can’t help but feel to a certain degree that the US only got serious about terrorism when it landed on its doorstep.

There are currently 300 million Americans, pending the results of the current census. I’d bet that it’s more like 350 million by now.

Among that many people, you’ll find enough to support any kind of terror, home-grown included. If the next Dalai Lama were to declare a Buddhist jihad against the Han Chinese, there would be plenty of Americans waiting in line to donate to the cause. “Free Tibet? You Bet!”

99 cliffster  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:37:25am

re: #87 Cato the Elder

Has the thought occurred to anyone else that someone, somewhere may be toying with us a bit?

Absolutely it has. And it’s crossed my mind that it’s a diversion. I thought about sending an FBI with a heads-up, but they’ve probably thought of that.

100 davesax  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:38:16am

I was at Times Square when this happened, coming from a Yellowjackets concert at Lincoln Center.

I could care less about this asshole’s rights.

101 Liberal Classic  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:38:24am

re: #97 drcordell

Grats! I’m waiting for a call back fingers crossed.

102 darthstar  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:38:24am

re: #35 Charles

If this plot really did come from Al Qaeda or the Taliban, their capacity to launch effective terror attacks has obviously degraded enormously.

Imagine the lameness of putting your life on the line to commit a murderous attack in the heart of New York City, but failing to make sure the bomb will actually go off.

If it had blown up, it would have been very bad, of course. But if the descriptions of the device are accurate, it was a pile of junk, highly unlikely to explode.

“Possibly capable of blowing the car in half” is what I heard…it wouldn’t have taken down the Marriott or anything like that, for which I’m grateful, but it still would have caused a serious amount of panic had it gone off, and the stampede would likely have hurt more people.

103 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:38:40am

re: #98 Cato the Elder

There are currently 300 million Americans, pending the results of the current census. I’d bet that it’s more like 350 million by now.

Among that many people, you’ll find enough to support any kind of terror, home-grown included. If the next Dalai Lama were to declare a Buddhist jihad against the Han Chinese, there would be plenty of Americans waiting in line to donate to the cause. “Free Tibet? You Bet!”

BUDDHISM DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!

104 Decatur Deb  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:38:49am

re: #34 Liberal Classic

His attorney will probably request a change of venue.

Oklahoma City would work for me.

105 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:39:03am

Pakistan makes arrests connected to NYC bomb attempt

Pakistan on Tuesday made several arrests in connection with the failed Times Square car bomb attack in New York, security sources said.

“We have picked up a few family members” related to Faisal Shahzad, the chief suspect in the attempted attack, a security official in Karachi said. A friend of Shahzad was also arrested.

Shahzad, a 30-year-old Pakistani-American, was arrested late on Monday at John F. Kennedy International Airport in New York after being removed from a plane as it was about take off for Dubai, American officials said.

Another intelligence official in Pakistan said Shahzad received militant training in northwest Pakistan near the garrison town of Kohat. The area around Kohat is a stronghold of Tariq Afridi, the main Pakistani Taliban commander in the region.

106 drcordell  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:39:04am

re: #99 cliffster

Absolutely it has. And it’s crossed my mind that it’s a diversion. I thought about sending an FBI with a heads-up, but they’ve probably thought of that.

If you’re going to go through the trouble of placing a bomb in times square… why not make it blow up? Seems to me like if you wanted to do a decoy, you would just leave a suspicious vehicle that was empty.

107 McSpiff  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:39:25am

re: #98 Cato the Elder

Agreed, but for many groups do you have elected representatives willing to turn a blind eye, or worse yet actively support like Rep. King here?

108 Kruk  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:39:38am

re: #100 davesax

I was at Times Square when this happened, coming from a Yellowjackets concert at Lincoln Center.

I could care less about this asshole’s rights.

The problem is that the courts will care, a great deal. I don’t want to see any terror suspect walking free on a technicality.

109 drcordell  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:39:41am

re: #101 Liberal Classic

Grats! I’m waiting for a call back fingers crossed.

I’m sure they’ll call. I actually had the surreal experience of fielding two offers on the same day, still can’t believe it.

110 Cato the Elder  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:39:59am

re: #94 sattv4u2

Crossed my mind for a moment, but why risk arrest and imprisonment if it were a prank or dry run?

Not this guy. His handlers. Pick a moron, give him joke training and a Rube Goldberg bomb recipe, let him get caught. Sit back and laugh while plotting the real deal.

111 cliffster  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:40:34am

re: #100 davesax

I was at Times Square when this happened, coming from a Yellowjackets concert at Lincoln Center.

I could care less about this asshole’s rights.

He’s a citizen, dude. Thumbs up on the Yellowjackets, though

112 Cato the Elder  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:40:52am

re: #103 jamesfirecat

BUDDHISM DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!

Neither, supposedly, does Islam.

113 Liberal Classic  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:41:04am

re: #104 Decatur Deb

I actually think it is possible for him to get a fair trial in New York, New York. It’s also my estimation that if the evidence is a clear as it seems to be (based on the speed at which law enforcement moved) that the jury won’t miss too many days of work.

114 Stanghazi  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:41:15am
FBI Deputy Director John Pistole told reporters that Shahzad was interviewed last night and this morning under the “public safety exception to the Miranda rule” by officers with the Joint Terrorism Task Force and the NYPD. He was then transferred to another location, Mirandized, and kept talking, Pistole said.

I guess our law and order Rep. King and Senator McCain are not anywhere close to this case, but still like to spout off their fear points.

115 Aceofwhat?  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:41:23am

re: #96 cliffster

hehe, “mulch bomber”. Brilliant.

*bows*

116 Kragar  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:41:27am

So, I’m stretching at my desk, hands over my head, when someone comes up behind me and tries to put me in an arm bar, so I twist my one hand free and reach up and back to break the hold and get a handful of boob and a hearty laugh.

Apparently the new girl in the office has arrived and she has a sense of humor.

117 garhighway  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:41:44am

re: #100 davesax

I was at Times Square when this happened, coming from a Yellowjackets concert at Lincoln Center.

I could care less about this asshole’s rights.

Well that seems like a good reason to suspend the Constitution.

118 Spider Mensch  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:42:04am

re: #97 drcordell

Just took a new job offer, tendered my two-weeks notice yesterday. Well on my way!

I heard there having a going away party, two weeks and one day from yesterday, hmmm that’s strange…. ;^)

/just joking, good luck!

119 Decatur Deb  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:42:29am

re: #53 SanFranciscoZionist

I do not get this. You have to Mirandize. It is not optional.

You know how people say that ‘it’s not the Ten Suggestions’? It’s not the Miranda Good Idea.

Despite Sen Mccain’s opinion, Miranda does not give a citizen his rights. It reminds a citizan of his rights.

120 sattv4u2  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:42:34am

re: #110 Cato the Elder

Not this guy. His handlers. Pick a moron, give him joke training and a Rube Goldberg bomb recipe, let him get caught. Sit back and laugh while plotting the real deal.

Thought about that too, but I doubt his “handlers” would have made it possible for hi to board a flight out of town

“Faisal, Do this then go to the corner of 8th ave and 10 street and wait for us to pick you up so we can get you out!!”

121 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:42:46am

Holder: NYC bomb suspect to face terror, WMD charges

WASHINGTON (AP) — Attorney General Eric Holder says the suspect in the failed Times Square car bombing will be face terrorism and weapons of mass destruction charges.

Faisal Shahzad, a naturalized U.S. citizen from Pakistan, is under arrest for the failed bombing. Holder says Shahzad is talking to investigators and has provided valuable information.

Holder described the failed bombing as a very serious terrorist plot intended to kill Americans.

122 davesax  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:43:03am

re: #111 cliffster

I acknowledged that I know that.

And I’m telling you I was there, and this scumbag tried to commit mass murder, and I just don’t care about his miranda rights.

And yes, the Yellowjackets are the best.

123 Liberal Classic  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:43:13am

re: #109 drcordell

I’m sure they’ll call. I actually had the surreal experience of fielding two offers on the same day, still can’t believe it.

Thanks, I’ve got a few irons in the fire, but nothing firm yet.

124 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:43:20am

re: #112 Cato the Elder

Neither, supposedly, does Islam.

Fair enough RoP and all that.

It’s just to my knowledge so far Buddhism has for the most part managed to practice what it preaches when it comes to not harming others.

125 sattv4u2  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:43:35am

re: #116 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

So, I’m stretching at my desk, hands over my head, when someone comes up behind me and tries to put me in an arm bar, so I twist my one hand free and reach up and back to break the hold and get a handful of boob and a hearty laugh.

Apparently the new girl in the office has arrived and she has a sense of humor.

and healthy boobs!

126 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:44:11am

re: #122 davesax

I acknowledged that I know that.

And I’m telling you I was there, and this scumbag tried to commit mass murder, and I just don’t care about his miranda rights.

And yes, the Yellowjackets are the best.

You are free not to care about them, but he’s going to get them all the same.

127 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:44:14am

re: #116 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Don’t read too much into that. She doesn’t officially have a crush on you until she punches you in the arm.

128 Cato the Elder  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:46:34am

re: #124 jamesfirecat

Fair enough RoP and all that.

It’s just to my knowledge so far Buddhism has for the most part managed to practice what it preaches when it comes to not harming others.

I hate to burst your bubble.

129 cliffster  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:47:01am

re: #122 davesax

I acknowledged that I know that.

And I’m telling you I was there, and this scumbag tried to commit mass murder, and I just don’t care about his miranda rights.

And yes, the Yellowjackets are the best.

With all due respect and empathy to your personal stake in the situation, that must be put aside. These processes protect the rights that are guaranteed by the Constitution. The rights that all of us hold dear. If we set those to the side, for any citizen, then we have surrendered the idea that freedom is in and of itself sacrosanct. This cannot be done, ever.

And although the Yellowjackets are very good, Spyro Gyra is better.

130 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:47:03am

re: #116 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I wish the cute redhead I work with would put me in an armbar.

131 Kruk  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:50:17am

re: #130 Mad Al-Jaffee

I wish the cute redhead I work with would put me in an armbar.

Why not just ask her out? (Assuming you’re both single.)

132 Four More Tears  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:50:51am

re: #131 Kruk

Why not just ask her out? (Assuming you’re both single.)

Some of us are quite fond of women who assert themselves…

133 PAUL_MACDONALD  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:51:23am

This is where the paranoia leads: An elected official openly pondering the removal of rights of the citizenry. As much as we know this guy is “the guy”, he still needs to have his rights protected. America is supposed to be a beacon. It isn’t supposed to lower itself to a police state.

I hope to hell he was Mirandized so he can’t get off on a technicality.

134 Aceofwhat?  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:52:28am

re: #124 jamesfirecat

Fair enough RoP and all that.

It’s just to my knowledge so far Buddhism has for the most part managed to practice what it preaches when it comes to not harming others.

Plenty of violence has occurred on the part of so-called Buddhists. Just because it’s halfway around the world doesn’t mean it isn’t real…

135 jamesfirecat  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:53:17am

re: #128 Cato the Elder

I hate to burst your bubble.

F***!

And back to being a firm agnostic who has a problem with all organized religion….

136 Kruk  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:53:38am

re: #132 JasonA

Some of us are quite fond of women who assert themselves…

So nowadays the accepted signal is putting your beau in an arm lock? Man, I’ve been out of the game too long. :)

137 cliffster  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:55:01am

re: #136 Kruk

So nowadays the accepted signal is putting your beau in an arm lock? Man, I’ve been out of the game too long. :)

after she puts you in the arm lock, you’re supposed to text her to see if she wants to have coffee.

138 rwdflynavy  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:58:31am

Maybe we ought to require our elected officials to give up their rights of citizenship for the term of their office.
//

139 Cato the Elder  Tue, May 4, 2010 10:59:23am

re: #135 jamesfirecat

F***!

And back to being a firm agnostic who has a problem with all organized religion…

A “firm agnostic”? There’s a contradiction in terms if I’ve ever heard one!

140 Obdicut  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:02:33am

re: #128 Cato the Elder

Hell, the Red Hat/Yellow Hat wars were plenty fucking bloody.

And the Thai are all deeply Buddhist. Doesn’t stop them from killing each other, too.

141 Kruk  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:03:33am

re: #139 Cato the Elder

A “firm agnostic”? There’s a contradiction in terms if I’ve ever heard one!

We’re certain about the fact we’re not certain about anything.

PS: Ever heard the one about the insomniac dyslexic agonostic? He lies awake at night wondering if there really is a dog.

142 davesax  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:05:44am

I thought this was a place for debate, not the website of the ACLU.

Lincoln, hardly a right wing nutjob, suspended certain constitutional rights during the civil war to supress fifth columns.

And I know first hand that the NYPD is monitoring Mosques in this city.

And, finally, Israel is dealing with this dilemma right now, as Arabs and their MKS in Israel become more radicalized and meet with enemy governments.

This is a different world, dealing with single persons who will have the ability to commit mass murder with the touch of a button. And no matter how uncomfortable it is to acknowedge, this issue will only become much more complicated.

And yes, having been there, I really don’t care if this guy was told “You have the right to remain silent”.

This city is already equiped with thousands of video cameras. After this, there will only be a demand for more. Within a few years they will be everywhere.

Consitutional to monitor everything we’re doing? Hardly. Civil Liberties groups have been reeling about it since September 11th. But it’s right around the corner.

Do I want it? Am I happy about it? No. But this is where it’s going.

143 Obdicut  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:08:39am

re: #142 davesax

First of all: The ACLU is an awesome organization and it’s a damn good thing we have them around. Comparing people to members of the ACLU as an insult shows what kind of person you are.

And yes, having been there, I really don’t care if this guy was told “You have the right to remain silent”.

Having been where? New York? So if you’re personally threatened, you don’t give a shit about the law?

Do I want it? Am I happy about it? No. But this is where it’s going.

You kind of tipped your hand with your first line, dude, it’s a little late to concern-troll.

144 Kruk  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:09:35am

re: #142 davesax

I thought this was a place for debate, not the website of the ACLU.

People who agree on virtually nothing else on this site are agreeing that refusing people their legal rights is a bad, bad, idea. That should tell you something. As for Lincoln, he was fighting a nation-wide Civil War. We’re very far short of that.

145 Decatur Deb  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:09:41am

re: #139 Cato the Elder

A “firm agnostic”? There’s a contradiction in terms if I’ve ever heard one!

Agnostics LLC.

146 Aceofwhat?  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:10:52am

re: #135 jamesfirecat

F***!

And back to being a firm agnostic who has a problem with all organized religion…

You haven’t been reading your CS Lewis!

“When we Christians behave badly, or fail to behave well, we are making Christianity unbelievable to the outside world. The wartime posters told us that Careless Talk costs Lives. It is equally true that Careless Lives cost Talk. Our careless lives set the outer world talking; and we give them grounds for talking in a way that throws doubt on the truth of Christianity itself.”

however…

“The world does not consist of 100 per cent. Christians and 100 per cent. Non-Christians. There are people (a great many of them) who are slowly ceasing to be Christians but who still call themselves by that name: some of them are clergymen. There are other people who are slowly becoming Christians though they do not yet call themselves so. There are people who do not accept the full Christian doctrine about Christ but who are so strongly attracted by Him that they are His in a much deeper sense than they themselves understand.

There are people in other religions who are being led by God’s secret influence to concentrate on those parts of their religion which are in agreement with Christianity, and who thus belong to Christ without knowing it. For example, a Buddhist of good will may be led to concentrate more and more on the Buddhist teaching about mercy and to leave in the background (though he might still say he believed) the Buddhist teaching on certain other points. Many of the good Pagans long before Christ’s birth may have been in this position. And always, of course, there are a great many people who are just confused in mind and have a lot of inconsistent beliefs all jumbled up together.

Consequently, it is not much use trying to make judgments about Christians and non-Christians in the mass. It is some use comparing cats and dogs, or even men and women, in the mass, because there one knows definitely which is which. Also, an animal does not turn (either slowly or suddenly) from a dog into a cat. But when we are comparing Christians in general with non-Christians in general, we are usually not thinking about real people whom we know at all, but only about two vague ideas which we have got from novels and newspapers. If you want to compare the bad Christian and the good Atheist, you must think about two real specimens whom you have actually met. Unless we come down to brass tacks in that way, we shall only be wasting time.”

147 Aceofwhat?  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:12:30am

re: #142 davesax

we are debating, bag o’douche. no one told you to STFU. they just told you why you failed.

oh, wait - the problem is that you don’t know what a debate is.

i see now.

148 Obdicut  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:12:58am

re: #146 Aceofwhat?

Uh… what was that supposed to prove, exactly?

Lewis was a very nice man, but his logic is not exactly a work of brilliance. He can’t escape the need to claim supremacy for Christianity, which unfortunately unravels his entire point.

149 Aceofwhat?  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:14:27am

re: #143 Obdicut

heh. i knew you’d bite that ACLU line like a shark on tuna;)

150 sattv4u2  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:15:26am

re: #143 Obdicut

The ACLU is an awesome organization and it’s a damn good thing we have them around. Comparing people to members of the ACLU as an insult shows what kind of person you are.


In that the ACLU is an awesome org how is comparing people here to members of it an “insult”?


You may need to re-phrase that

151 Obdicut  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:15:46am

re: #149 Aceofwhat?

It was a rather obvious tell. Dislike of the ACLU, the SLPC, the ADL, all generally add up to a similar state.

152 Obdicut  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:16:01am

re: #150 sattv4u2

No, I don’t. You may need to read it again, though.

153 davesax  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:16:04am

Obdicut:

1. I was in Times Square when this happened.

2. The ACLU has become a very political organization, and is not nearly as awesome as it was. Before LGF became more politically correct, Charles would focus on this quite a bit.

3. You don’t know me at all. What I do know about you, is that you frequently turn your posts into personal attacks, and make up stuff as you go along. It’s rather immature.

So, for the record: I was in Times Square. I care not about this asshole’s Miranda rights.

Now, down ding away!

154 Spare O'Lake  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:16:35am

re: #14 Charles

John McCain was almost as bad. He said we should just kind of stretch out the pre-Miranda interrogations as long as possible.

But then, McCain’s running for his life as a non-maverick these days.

Maybe it’s more important to get information about his co-conspirators and higher-ups than it is to secure a conviction against this fellow. Maybe that’s all they were saying.

155 sattv4u2  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:17:04am

re: #152 Obdicut

The ACLU is an awesome organization and it’s a damn good thing we have them around. Comparing people to members of the ACLU as an insult shows what kind of person you are.
Or maybe you do!

156 davesax  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:17:38am

Ace:

Douch?

That’s intelligent debate for ya’.

And no, noone proved anything to me, here. They’re just jumping in with the herd, as you all usually do on this thread.

157 Four More Tears  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:18:57am

re: #153 davesax

Before LGF became more politically correct, Charles would focus on this quite a bit.

Oh just give us the full flounce and get it over with.

158 Obdicut  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:19:07am

re: #153 davesax

Duly downdinged. You’re a coward. You don’t care about the rights of others because you’re scurred. Grow a spine.

159 Aceofwhat?  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:19:13am

re: #148 Obdicut

Uh… what was that supposed to prove, exactly?

Lewis was a very nice man, but his logic is not exactly a work of brilliance. He can’t escape the need to claim supremacy for Christianity, which unfortunately unravels his entire point.

A good friend of mine is a PhD student in Philosophy at Loyola in Chicago. CS Lewis is not held in nearly the poor regard that you would have us believe among philosophy schools.

The point was that a poor actor certainly brings discredit to their cause, but at the same time, discrediting a cause because of the actions of some poor actors is shortsighted. Being able to find instances of violence supposedly carried out in the name of Buddha is not a stand-alone repudiation of that belief system.

160 cliffster  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:19:35am

re: #150 sattv4u2

The ACLU is an awesome organization and it’s a damn good thing we have them around. Comparing people to members of the ACLU as an insult shows what kind of person you are.

In that the ACLU is an awesome org how is comparing people here to members of it an “insult”?

You may need to re-phrase that

In the context of what sax-man said, it was pretty clearly being used as a pejorative. Some may like that, some may not, but that is what it was.

161 Kruk  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:20:06am

re: #154 Spare O’Lake

Maybe it’s more important to get information about his co-conspirators and higher-ups than it is to secure a conviction against this fellow. Maybe that’s all they were saying.

That’s assuming there were co-conspirators and higher ups. It would suck to blow the chances of a conviction and then find the suspect was working alone.

162 Aceofwhat?  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:21:21am

re: #156 davesax

Ace:

Douch?

That’s intelligent debate for ya’.

And no, noone proved anything to me, here. They’re just jumping in with the herd, as you all usually do on this thread.

it was a comment on the same level as “i thought this was a place for debate”.

when you spray insult as a wide barrage, you receive a wide response.

wait - why am i even saying that out loud? why is that not self-evident to you?

163 sattv4u2  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:21:22am

re: #160 cliffster

In the context of what sax-man said, it was pretty clearly being used as a pejorative. Some may like that, some may not, but that is what it was.

granted,

164 Obdicut  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:21:52am

re: #159 Aceofwhat?

Yes, he really is held in ‘poor regard’, except among people who are religious. He was perfectly fine for his time, as a minor sort of dude, but he doesn’t even approach being a serious philosopher.

The point was that a poor actor certainly brings discredit to their cause, but at the same time, discrediting a cause because of the actions of some poor actors is shortsighted. Being able to find instances of violence supposedly carried out in the name of Buddha is not a stand-alone repudiation of that belief system.

Nor is anything, by Lewis’s measure, because the elements of a belief system, according to Lewis, are not actually a whole, but composed of atomized parts; and each atomized part that has value is an aspect of “Christianity”, a facet of the Christ.

It’s just a more sophisticated version of the No True Scotsman Fallacy.

I prefer G.K. Chesterton’s attitude towards Atheists. Have you read The Ball and the Cross?

165 Aceofwhat?  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:23:03am

re: #153 davesax

Obdicut:

1. I was in Times Square when this happened.

2. The ACLU has become a very political organization, and is not nearly as awesome as it was. Before LGF became more politically correct, Charles would focus on this quite a bit.

3. You don’t know me at all. What I do know about you, is that you frequently turn your posts into personal attacks, and make up stuff as you go along. It’s rather immature.

So, for the record: I was in Times Square. I care not about this asshole’s Miranda rights.

Now, down ding away!

that is no different than saying “this guy over here tried to kill my brother, so i don’t care about his Miranda rights”.

would you say that if someone tried to kill your brother?

166 davesax  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:23:04am

re: #158 Obdicut

I’m a coward? Because I don’t agree with you on a blog?

I don’t understand.

I was in Times Square that night, and I don’t care about this asshole’s Miranda rights.

It obviously really upsets you that I don’t.

So down ding me again.

I don’t care.

167 Liberal Classic  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:23:26am

re: #153 davesax

So, for the record: I was in Times Square. I care not about this asshole’s Miranda rights.

“Hang ‘em high” is a perfectly natural reaction. I’m sure you’ll agree we’re a nation of laws. Those laws exist to safeguard our liberty, and I’ll accept the inconvenience of waiting a while before seeing this guy do the gallows jig in order to ensure that you or I don’t get railroaded for something we didn’t do or pissing off someone in a position of power and authority.

168 gamark  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:24:17am

re: #42 Charles

Two arrests made in Pakistan in connection with the bombing attempt…

If I were Faisal Shahzad, I’d be thanking $GOD about now that the FBI nabbed me in NYC rather than the Pakistani police when the flight landed…

169 Obdicut  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:24:41am

re: #166 davesax

It doesn’t upset me. It just makes me think that you’re a coward, since you’re willing to let people’s rights be infringed upon because you’re scared. Unreasonably and foolishly scared, as well.

I have no idea why you think saying ‘downding away’ is making some kind of brave stand, either. It’s a piece of software, dude, it can’t hurt you.

170 sattv4u2  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:26:26am

re: #169 Obdicut

It doesn’t upset me. It just makes me think that you’re a coward, since you’re willing to let people’s rights be infringed upon because you’re scared. Unreasonably and foolishly scared, as well.
I have no idea why you think saying ‘downding away’ is making some kind of brave stand, either. It’s a piece of software, dude, it can’t hurt you.

I’d take issue with that, in light of SUCCESSFUL attacks already perpetrated in NYC

171 Aceofwhat?  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:28:55am

re: #164 Obdicut

Yes, he really is held in ‘poor regard’, except among people who are religious. He was perfectly fine for his time, as a minor sort of dude, but he doesn’t even approach being a serious philosopher.

Nor is anything, by Lewis’s measure, because the elements of a belief system, according to Lewis, are not actually a whole, but composed of atomized parts; and each atomized part that has value is an aspect of “Christianity”, a facet of the Christ.

It’s just a more sophisticated version of the No True Scotsman Fallacy.

I prefer G.K. Chesterton’s attitude towards Atheists. Have you read The Ball and the Cross?

no, but i’m not telling you what i think. i’m telling you that he is not held in poor regard at one of the best philosophy schools in the nation.

172 Obdicut  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:28:59am

re: #170 sattv4u2

Why would you take issue with it?

What are the odds of being killed by a terrorist in NYC?

173 sattv4u2  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:29:21am

re: #169 Obdicut
Unreasonably and foolishly scared, as well.


re: #170 sattv4u2

I’d take issue with that, in light of SUCCESSFUL attacks already perpetrated in NYC

And a little clarity. The people that stopped going into lakes in Ohio after they watched Jaws,, THEY were Unreasonably and foolishly scared, as well. imho.

174 Obdicut  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:30:12am

re: #171 Aceofwhat?

Okay, Ace. You know that Loyala is a Jesuit school, right?

175 sattv4u2  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:31:13am

re: #172 Obdicut

see 173

There IS reason in NYC to be scared. Does that mean you should move out? NO. Does it mean you should never leave your home? NO!

‘scared” can lead to GOOD things there. More vigilant,, more aware,, etc

176 Aceofwhat?  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:31:46am

re: #171 Aceofwhat?

no, but i’m not telling you what i think. i’m telling you that he is not held in poor regard at one of the best philosophy schools in the nation.

pimf, he’s at Chicago. different friend at law school at Loyola. mixed my schools, sorry.

177 Aceofwhat?  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:32:17am

re: #174 Obdicut

Okay, Ace. You know that Loyala is a Jesuit school, right?

my bad. mixed loyola and UChicago. he’s at Chicago, different friend in Law school at Loyola. sorry.

178 Obdicut  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:34:06am

re: #176 Aceofwhat?

I went to University of Chicago, Ace. He was not held in high regard there. He is not held in high regard as a philosopher in general. Very, very few theologians are, and, when they are, it is almost entirely in the context of their time period.

He had a beautiful heart, and is a great, shining example of ‘Christian love’.

You ought to get around to reading Darwin’s Dangerous Idea at some point, too.

179 Aceofwhat?  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:34:50am

re: #178 Obdicut

I went to University of Chicago, Ace. He was not held in high regard there. He is not held in high regard as a philosopher in general. Very, very few theologians are, and, when they are, it is almost entirely in the context of their time period.

He had a beautiful heart, and is a great, shining example of ‘Christian love’.

You ought to get around to reading Darwin’s Dangerous Idea at some point, too.

you were in the PhD philosophy program at UC?

180 sattv4u2  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:35:10am

re: #172 Obdicut

Why would you take issue with it?

What are the odds of being killed by a terrorist in NYC?

Much higher than in Branson Missouri,,, Panama City Beach Florida,, Columbia South Carolina,,, Perris California ,,,

181 Spare O'Lake  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:35:10am

re: #158 Obdicut

Duly downdinged. You’re a coward. You don’t care about the rights of others because you’re scurred. Grow a spine.

The decision of when or if to Mirandize is a judgment call in each case by law enforcement. Don’t be a simpleton.

182 Aceofwhat?  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:36:13am

davesax…still waiting for an answer to #165…knock-knock…

183 Aceofwhat?  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:37:15am

OT, while we’re waiting for davesax to answer me…

borderline NSFW…

184 Obdicut  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:38:05am

re: #177 Aceofwhat?

Tell your friend to ask the opinion of Bertram Cohler, James Conant, Candace Vogler, Bart Schultz, Marko Malink, and Ted Cohen about C.S. Lewis. More to the point, ask him to name a single professor there who specializes or subspecializes in him, and the number of philosophy articles at UofC that refer to him in any way.

185 Obdicut  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:38:51am

re: #179 Aceofwhat?

No. But all of the graduate division professors teach undergraduate classes as well. It’s one of the very nice things about the place. It has a lot of un-nice things about it.

186 Obdicut  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:40:07am

re: #180 sattv4u2

That wasn’t the question, though.

Being scared of being killed by a terrorist is idiotic. Letting that fear override the constitution and the spirit of the United States is cowardly.

187 Olsonist  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:40:10am

re: #179 Aceofwhat?

you were in the PhD philosophy program at UC?

Ahem. UC would be the University of California, founded in 1868 well before the University of Chicago’s founding in 1890.

188 Aceofwhat?  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:40:52am

re: #187 Olsonist

Ahem. UC would be the University of California, founded in 1868 well before the University of Chicago’s founding in 1890.

heh. touché

189 Aceofwhat?  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:41:38am

re: #184 Obdicut

Tell your friend to ask the opinion of Bertram Cohler, James Conant, Candace Vogler, Bart Schultz, Marko Malink, and Ted Cohen about C.S. Lewis. More to the point, ask him to name a single professor there who specializes or subspecializes in him, and the number of philosophy articles at UofC that refer to him in any way.

sure.

190 davesax  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:42:38am

re: #169 Obdicut

I disagree with you. I’m very brave. That’s why I argue over a computer.

AS far as downdinging, I really don’t care, either. But it seems to be the way of venting at people, here.

I’ve said how I feel. If that makes me a coward in your eyes, I’m fine with that.

191 Obdicut  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:42:58am

re: #189 Aceofwhat?

Are you sure he didn’t mean the Divinity School at UofC?

192 Cineaste  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:43:02am

re: #122 davesax

I acknowledged that I know that.

And I’m telling you I was there, and this scumbag tried to commit mass murder, and I just don’t care about his miranda rights.

And yes, the Yellowjackets are the best.

Really? You saw this guy? And absolutely, without a doubt, this guy? And you know for sure that he doesn’t deserve due process as guaranteed under the law?

*head smack*

Every American citizen is treated fairly and equally under the law, no matter how appalling the accusation against them. This is non-negotiable. People like you are exactly why we have these rights. To stop posses from rounding someone up and executing their own justice because they are angry.

The law doesn’t know anger. It knows justice.

193 Obdicut  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:43:36am

re: #190 davesax

Saying over and over again how you don’t care about something is normally not a very persuasive argument.

194 Decatur Deb  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:44:12am

re: #184 Obdicut

Tell your friend to ask the opinion of Bertram Cohler, James Conant, Candace Vogler, Bart Schultz, Marko Malink, and Ted Cohen about C.S. Lewis. More to the point, ask him to name a single professor there who specializes or subspecializes in him, and the number of philosophy articles at UofC that refer to him in any way.

When did it become necessary for Lewis to be a philosopher. I never thought he was more than a nice, minor novelist (and I went to the most Catholic kind of school you can find.)

195 Cineaste  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:44:21am

re: #153 davesax

Obdicut:

1. I was in Times Square when this happened.

2. The ACLU has become a very political organization, and is not nearly as awesome as it was. Before LGF became more politically correct, Charles would focus on this quite a bit.

3. You don’t know me at all. What I do know about you, is that you frequently turn your posts into personal attacks, and make up stuff as you go along. It’s rather immature.

So, for the record: I was in Times Square. I care not about this asshole’s Miranda rights.

Now, down ding away!

Why does your being in Time Square mean that you get to choose who gets their rights violated?

196 sattv4u2  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:45:33am

re: #192 Cineaste

Really? You saw this guy? And absolutely, without a doubt, this guy?

He never stated he “saw” the guy

He stated he was in Times Square that night

I’m sure there were many people in Times Square that night that Dave never saw, and I’m sure when Dave was in Times Square that night many people that were there didn’t see him!

197 Obdicut  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:46:15am

re: #194 Decatur Deb

He was one of the first to make the ‘all good aspects of other religions are really Christianity in disguise’ arguments, which was one of the more important theological movements; away from a delineation and towards a more, ah, catholic approach.

However, that logic works no better for his claims to Christian exceptionalism than anyone else’s claims to whatever exceptionalism they like.

198 Cineaste  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:46:25am

re: #196 sattv4u2

Really? You saw this guy? And absolutely, without a doubt, this guy?

He never stated he “saw” the guy

He stated he was in Times Square that night

I’m sure there were many people in Times Square that night that Dave never saw, and I’m sure when Dave was in Times Square that night many people that were there didn’t see him!

Absolutely. So why does his being in Times Square mean that another US citizen should have his rights taken away without due process?

199 sattv4u2  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:47:13am

re: #198 Cineaste

Absolutely. So why does his being in Times Square mean that another US citizen should have his rights taken away without due process?

It doesn’t. I was just telling you that you were putting words into his mouth

200 davesax  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:48:08am

I love upsetting people here.

It’s such a herd mentality. People get so angry over nothing. Especially Obdicut. I love enduring Obdicut’s scorn, as if he/she is so much more intelligent than anyone else.

But, back to the topic.

I was in Times Square that night guys. I really don’t care about this jerk’s Miranda Rights.

Vent your rage at someone else. Better yet, do it at Obama. He’s kept almost all of Bush’s processes for holding suspected terrorists in place. Even the warrantless wiretapping.

Obdicut can start a blog and rant about how Obama is a coward.

Like I give a shit.

201 sattv4u2  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:50:54am

re: #200 davesax

I really don’t care about this jerk’s Miranda Rights.

I do!

He should get Mirandized ,, THEN waterboarded!!

No ,, I jest

After Miranda,., the TAZED!!

oopppsss,, there I go again!!

//

202 sattv4u2  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:51:21am

And on that note,, headin’ out

203 Aceofwhat?  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:51:43am

re: #200 davesax

I love upsetting people here.

It’s such a herd mentality. People get so angry over nothing. Especially Obdicut. I love enduring Obdicut’s scorn, as if he/she is so much more intelligent than anyone else.

But, back to the topic.

I was in Times Square that night guys. I really don’t care about this jerk’s Miranda Rights.

Vent your rage at someone else. Better yet, do it at Obama. He’s kept almost all of Bush’s processes for holding suspected terrorists in place. Even the warrantless wiretapping.

Obdicut can start a blog and rant about how Obama is a coward.

Like I give a shit.

#165 is waiting for you and your bad self…

204 Decatur Deb  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:52:43am

re: #197 Obdicut

We always thought of him as soft and fuzzy. Chesterton was far more doctrinaire, but even he was thought of as a “journalist”. If you didn’t have a tonsure, ya got no creds.

205 Obdicut  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:52:45am

re: #200 davesax

That you see rage is on you, man, not on me.

I just think you’re a coward because you’re saying things that are very cowardly. It’s pretty straightforward. It has nothing to do with intelligence whatsoever.

And again: Repeating over and over that you don’t care about something makes you look dumb.

206 Obdicut  Tue, May 4, 2010 11:53:30am

re: #204 Decatur Deb

The mainstream Catholic Church theologians hated Chesterton, and begged him to shut the hell up; for that alone, I like him.

207 Olsonist  Tue, May 4, 2010 12:00:25pm

re: #200 davesax

You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to an attorney. If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed to you. Do you understand these rights as they have been read to you?

There. I’ve Miranda-ized DaveSax and I feel better.

208 Teh Flowah  Tue, May 4, 2010 12:11:54pm

If the various agencies in charge, and with the expertise that I lack, have a reasonable belief that X person is connected to some larger plot, group, whatever, and that Mirandizing him might cause that to dry up, I’m not going to jump down their throat for drawing out the some of the processes to get more info.

Like it or not, we put a lot of pressure on our government to keep us super safe. That pressure is felt by people in those agencies and it causes them to do these things. I promise you, most of them aren’t doing it just for kicks.

I will say though, that it is bad for politicians to openly say this. There is something to be said for paying lip service to rule of law. As dangerous as it is to do something outside of the rule of law, it becomes even more dangerous when it is given open political and possibly legal sanction.

That said, I doubt this kid was connected at all, in which case I see it more like those random idiots that work solo, get caught, and get sent to prison for the rest of their lives like any other criminal. If there’s no hint of a larger plot here, there’s no point in smudging his rights, nothing to be gained.

209 davesax  Tue, May 4, 2010 12:15:48pm

re: #205 Obdicut

Obdicute:

I disagree. Not caring about this guy’s Miranda rights doesn’t make me cowardly. There’s been plenty of intelligent people writing about the dilemmas that the West faces in regards to terrorism. Aaron Klein of Time Magazine wrote an interesting book just about that, and concluded, “You can’t have a totally free society when you’re fighting terrorists.”

And, finally, I don’t think saying, “I don’t care,” is dumb. I think it’s healthy and rather Carlenesque, in a cynical way.

You once said, “fine, make light of jews partying on the beach of my Bahamian ancestors”. That was pretty loony, yet entertaining.

So, in light of that, if I sound dumb or am a coward in your eyes, I’m happy to oblidge.

Peace out.

Damn, I can’t decide. You do that to me.

210 Obdicut  Tue, May 4, 2010 12:22:34pm

re: #209 davesax

You can’t have a totally free society anyway, not just when fighting terrorists. It’s a rather trivial statement.

You want rights abridged because you’re scared. You’re a coward.

211 wrenchwench  Tue, May 4, 2010 12:30:13pm

This was one of my favorite comments from davesax:

111 davesax 3/25/2010 2:03:21 pm PDT

Hey Charles:

Just wanted to wish you a hearty fairwell. Been a member of LGF since almost the beginning and I’ve decided to close my account. Not for any political reasons. I’ve just spent a lot of time reading blogs and commenting since September 11th, and it’s time to put that energy into other things.

Keep up the good work and passion for music.

I’ll be out here, reading.

Davesax

212 davesax  Tue, May 4, 2010 12:34:54pm

“You’re a coward.”

Ok.

shrug.

213 davesax  Tue, May 4, 2010 12:39:09pm

re: #211 wrenchwench

Wrench,

I know. I’ve been in a meeting all day and it’s really boring.

I remember years ago, when Charles, for whatever reason, supported the swiftboating of John Kerry. And I spoke out on the threads about how ridiculous it was, and boy was I attacked for that. People got personal.

Back in those days, LGF was more right, even dedicated to “debunking” Global Warming. I was never down with that, either.

If there is one thing I can say, it’s that I’ve gotten flack on these threads before.

It’s part of it, I guess.

214 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, May 4, 2010 12:41:49pm

re: #212 davesax

“You’re a coward.”

Ok.

shrug.

Rights in America, we has them

215 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, May 4, 2010 12:45:51pm

re: #200 davesax

I love upsetting people here.

This is just textbook:

1) get into a discussion where your opinion is unpopular and or ill-informed
2) get called on it by posters who actually have passions
3) get defensive, claim you’re not emotionally invested, say you were just intentionally cranking people up, or that you’re actually “amused”
4) disengage, feign boredom
5) repeat

216 davesax  Tue, May 4, 2010 12:53:07pm

re: #215 WindUpBird

Never said I was cracking people up. I was just disagreeing.

I don’t care about this guy’s Miranda rights, WindUp.

But I’m not feinging anything. I am, quite bored. or I wouldn’t be here.

Aren’t you?

Or do you actually enjoy ranting at people you don’t know all day, like Obdicut?

217 Aceofwhat?  Tue, May 4, 2010 12:57:05pm

re: #211 wrenchwench

This was one of my favorite comments from davesax:

BWAHAHAHAHA…

218 Aceofwhat?  Tue, May 4, 2010 12:58:44pm

re: #215 WindUpBird

This is just textbook:

1) get into a discussion where your opinion is unpopular and or ill-informed
2) get called on it by posters who actually have passions
2.5)ignore logical, reasonable questions to which one has no answer
3) get defensive, claim you’re not emotionally invested, say you were just intentionally cranking people up, or that you’re actually “amused”
4) disengage, feign boredom
5) repeat

just trying to help;)

how’ve you been?

219 Spare O'Lake  Tue, May 4, 2010 1:02:45pm

re: #190 davesax

I disagree with you. I’m very brave. That’s why I argue over a computer.

AS far as downdinging, I really don’t care, either. But it seems to be the way of venting at people, here.

I’ve said how I feel. If that makes me a coward in your eyes, I’m fine with that.

Stick around, Dave, it’s good to get some honest perspective here.

220 wrenchwench  Tue, May 4, 2010 1:05:17pm

re: #216 davesax

Never said I was cracking people up. I was just disagreeing.

I don’t care about this guy’s Miranda rights, WindUp.

But I’m not feinging anything. I am, quite bored. or I wouldn’t be here.

Aren’t you?

Or do you actually enjoy ranting at people you don’t know all day, like Obdicut?

It’s one thing to log in here when you’re bored. It’s quite another to continue to be bored after logging in. Maybe you will find amusement elsewhere. You had that idea once, but I guess it didn’t stick. Spare O’Lake seems to be the only one here who finds you amusing.

221 Steve Dutch  Tue, May 4, 2010 1:22:57pm

On Miranda: Count me among the people who have found Miranda, and in fact the whole Warren Court “procedural revolution,” offensive from the start. Part of the affront posed by the Miranda decision was that Miranda was patently guilty (he was retried and sent to prison). How in the world can any society claim to be rational and then base verdicts on anything but factual guilt or innocence?

On the ACLU: They may mean well, but their theory that protecting the rights of criminals protects the rights of all is a dismal failure. Protecting the rights of criminals protects only the rights of criminals. If someone burglarizes my home and is hurt, he can get a defense attorney courtesy of the Gideon ruling. If he sues me for his injury (itself a legal atrocity) I do not get any free legal assistance, nor can I recover my costs if I win the case. Can you possibly begin to see why people have problems with the ACLU? (Yes, I realize the ACLU did not participate actively in Gideon, but they would certainly be in the forefront of the opposition to any attempt to overturn it.) If you want to protect my rights, then ask me what rights I want protected. The right to be safe from criminal attacks on my person and property, and my right not to be bankrupted by civil suits would be high on the list.

On C.S. Lewis: Not a serious philosopher? Compared to what? Bertrand Russell, a man whose reputation was solely the product of his own hype machine? A man whose “courageous” pacifism in WWI guaranteed him survival in a British jail while thousands of other men had no such guarantee?

222 davesax  Tue, May 4, 2010 1:32:17pm

WenchWrench:

I’ll log on or off, say what I want, whenever I want, as long as I have that option.

For all the insults, Obdicut calling me a coward, and the boilerplate responses about Miranda rights and being an American citizen, noone on this thread addressed any of my points that I made about how Israel faces the same dilemma.

The dilemma about having an extremist minority in our midst.

How do you deal with these people? Armed militias who threaten uprisings if the government passes laws and implements policies they don’t agree with?

Do you just say, “Freedom of speech?”, or “They are citizens so they have the right?”

And for Muslim extremists, it’s the same.

I don’t have any answers. But I’ll tell you this I was in Times Square the night this went down, and right now I just don’t care all that much about this guys rights.

Call me coward, tell me not to post here. That’s fine with me.

Bye, now.

223 Obdicut  Tue, May 4, 2010 1:33:11pm

re: #222 davesax


Post here all you want. You were the one who said that you weren’t going to.

224 Pacificlady  Tue, May 4, 2010 1:56:16pm

I was listening to Gibson his morning and it was mentioned that a suspect does not have to be Mirandized; however, anything the suspect says before being mirandized can not be used against that person in a case. If that is true, and I am not sure, I hope the FBI/CIA/HIG got as much information out of this dirtbag. I would think there’s enough evidence to get him.

225 captdiggs  Tue, May 4, 2010 2:55:43pm

re: #1 Dreggas

Remember, before all the details came out and the suspect was thought to be a middle-aged white guy, Republicans were calm cool and collected. Now that it’s some guy with a funny name and different color skin they don’t even think he should be mirandized.

Remember, before all the details came out, the democrats were sure it was a “teabagger” or “right wing militia”.

226 Achilles Tang  Tue, May 4, 2010 3:15:49pm

Talking of this and citizens rights; can any legal eagles advise what is the situation for someone found to have been lying when taking the citizenship oath, or before?

In other words, since he was recently granted citizenship, and if it is found he was previously conspiring against the USA, could his citizenship not be revoked, then try him in a military court?

227 swamprat  Tue, May 4, 2010 5:06:48pm

Here is an example of a Democrat taking away the rights of an American citizen;

The guy taking away the rights of an American citizen is not a Republican in this case. I don’t think Rep. Peter King, and this guy agree on much. But maybe they agree on this;

Barack Obama orders killing of US cleric Anwar al-Awlaki
Barack Obama’s administration has authorised the assassination of the radical Muslim cleric Anwar al-Awlaki, a rare move against an American citizen.

By Tom Leonard in New York
Published: 6:41PM BST 07 Apr 2010

Hands reaching across the aisles in bipartisan fellowship; it’s a beautiful thing.

228 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 4, 2010 5:09:09pm

re: #192 Cineaste

The law doesn’t know anger. It knows justice.

I cannot upding this enough times.

229 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 4, 2010 5:10:37pm

re: #200 davesax

I love upsetting people here.

It’s such a herd mentality. People get so angry over nothing.

Due process under the law. Otherwise known as ‘nothing’.

230 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 4, 2010 5:16:17pm

re: #222 davesax

WenchWrench:

I’ll log on or off, say what I want, whenever I want, as long as I have that option.

For all the insults, Obdicut calling me a coward, and the boilerplate responses about Miranda rights and being an American citizen, noone on this thread addressed any of my points that I made about how Israel faces the same dilemma.

The dilemma about having an extremist minority in our midst.

How do you deal with these people? Armed militias who threaten uprisings if the government passes laws and implements policies they don’t agree with?

Do you just say, “Freedom of speech?”, or “They are citizens so they have the right?”

And for Muslim extremists, it’s the same.

I don’t have any answers. But I’ll tell you this I was in Times Square the night this went down, and right now I just don’t care all that much about this guys rights.

Call me coward, tell me not to post here. That’s fine with me.

Bye, now.

Israel does NOT face the same dilemma, or rather, we do not face Israel’s dilemma. So what they do in Israel is only tangentially related to how we handle things here.

If you can point to any specific choices Israel has made that you think we should or should not emulate, that would be an interesting discussion.

I can understand that coming close to the time and place of the attempted attack, you may not care too much about the perp’s rights.

That’s OK. THat’s why we have professional law enforcement.

231 washsox  Tue, May 4, 2010 6:27:17pm

Peter King - a typical lunatic fringe far right wing useless boob…

232 enigma3535  Tue, May 4, 2010 7:31:53pm

Personally, I am conflicted by this meme. Where I think there may be a release from the rub?

Actions by domestic [or international] born, bred and led terrorists [driven to their acts by what are, essentially, domestic issues] …. are different from those that appear to be driven by foreign organizations that are not states [and not exactly what one might term “criminal organizations”]. Hybrids of the later decades of the 20th century … still being defined.

One could even agree with this …

“If you’re attacking your fellow Americans in an act of war you lose the rights that come with citizenship,” Joe Lieberman told reporters.

Lieberman said he was trying to amend an old US law “that says that if an American citizen is found to be fighting in the military of a nation with whom we are at war, they lose their citizenship.”

The lawmaker from Connecticut said the law should state that “any individual apprehended, American citizen, who is found to be involved with a foreign terrorist organization as designated by the Department of State, would be deprived of their citizenship rights.”

“If you have joined an enemy of the United States in attacking the United States to try to kill Americans I think you sacrifice your rights of citizenship,” said Lieberman.

… regardless of my conflict with what we are dealing with and how to deal with it … IMHO, the Geneva conventions should apply in any regard to any combatant in this struggle …. should Miranda Rights apply? I am still searching for an answer for my opinion regarding a US citizen, like his one, in that regard.

233 Decatur Deb  Tue, May 4, 2010 7:37:33pm

re: #232 enigma3535

Enigma—You won’t get much of a response because you came in late to a “dead” thread. That’s one that most people have given up. (There are only 4 other people that are holding this thread open.) Hold on to your question, it’s sure to come up again soon.

234 enigma3535  Tue, May 4, 2010 7:44:20pm

Thank you [very much] for taking the time to write that note … it was very nice of you. But, frankly, I don’t post to debate or to be read [per se] … I do spend a lot of cycles reading and thinking about world events and when I read something that pings me, I write about it … frequently, in dead threads; like this one …

235 Decatur Deb  Tue, May 4, 2010 7:46:05pm

re: #234 enigma3535

It’s more satisfying to drop haiku in a stream.

236 enigma3535  Tue, May 4, 2010 8:01:09pm

re: #235 Decatur Deb

For me … not so much [that said, very poetic … no pun intended] … good night : )

237 davesax  Wed, May 5, 2010 8:07:08am

re: #230 SanFranciscoZionist

San Francisco, Benny Morris talks about how Israel faces a huge dilemma with an increasingly radicalized Arab Muslim minority (there have been cases of Israeli Arabs aiding terrorists, unfortunately), all the time. There have been articles in Israeli newspapers, including Ynet and the Jerusalem Post, about it.

Actually, it just came up a few days ago in the Knesset, after a recent trip of Arab MK’s to Libya.

Just as the issue of American Muslims going to foreign countries for training and/or to join combat against American forces is being discussed as a real dilemma here because it’s increasingly common, while the NYPD monitors mosques in Brooklyn and the Bronx more and more. (It’s an open secret in the NYPD these days.)

And, by the way, the NYPD actually has close links to Israel and sends their own counterterrorism people to Israel to learn all the time.

I wasn’t trying to argue something, I was just stating a reality that hasn’t been said on this thread.

Your post seems a bit out of touch with reality, and is only there to fulfill a need to argue about - something. I don’t really know what. But something.

You and Obdicut should get together.

And argue.

And call people names who disagree with you.

Now, I’m going to take my cowardly self away from this thread and get my day going.

238 Charles Johnson  Wed, May 5, 2010 11:36:59am

You have the right to say you don’t give a shit about this guy’s rights.

And if I were in Times Square that night I probably wouldn’t care all that much either. In fact, if I saw someone doing this, and got my hands on him, the last thing he’d have to worry about would be whether he was Mirandized.

But when it comes to elected officials, they should have more freaking sense than to imply it’s OK to violate the rights of US citizens. Members of the House of Representatives are not private citizens; they’re the people who are supposed to guard and defend the rights we have as Americans, and it stinks when they pander to the lowest common denominator like this. Peter King has a responsibility not to use this kind of incendiary rhetoric, in my opinion. Davesax, not so much.

239 davesax  Wed, May 5, 2010 2:55:24pm

Charles:

Thanks for chiming in.

I don’t really care what Peter King said. Sincerely, I didn’t even read it.

As you said, I was talking from my gut.

Something no one here as brought up (including myself) is the following salient fact:

He wasn’t read his Miranda rights until AFTER initial questioning started.

Now is where it gets interesting.

I imagined that the government would use whatever means possible to get intel from this creep, Miranda rights, or not.

And I was right.

Notice they have not said exactly WHEN in the questioning process they read him his rights. And it wouldn’t matter if they did. They could make it up if they wanted to, and noone in the administration would challenge them.

Why did they wait to read him his rights? Because he’s not an ordinary criminal.

And how did they get around it?

They used a ticking bomb clause in the law.

Remember the Seattle Jewish center shooter? How they put off reading him his rights for concerns that there were more shooters out there? And the judge dismissed the evidence?

It turns out the government has developed a loophole, here, to prevent that from happening again.

I’ll bet anyone my horn that they read him his rights AFTER they were sure they had EVERYTHING they needed to know.

Now conservatives, like King, are hemming and hawing that they read him his rights, stirring up nativist ire, and I don’t agree with that at all. But in the end, it’s just their stupid political posturing, because telling someone they have the right to an attorney or the right to remain silent AFTER they’ve told you what you want to know completely goes against the entire reason for Miranda rights to begin with.

It’s almost straight out of the Onion.

So, really, this guy was not treated as an ordinary, naturalized at all. He was treated one step short of being an enemy combatant.

Kind of puts the whole thing in perspective, and frankly, makes some of the posters here, like Obdicut, who babbled on about how there will
“never be a ticking bomb situation,” and noone’s “rights must be infringed upon,” sound reactionary, while insulting me and calling me “a coward”.

Because, in the end the Obama administration took one right out of the Bush playbook.


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