Looking Back at the ‘Climategate’ Big Lie

Environment • Views: 18,819

Kate at Climatesight has an outstanding article, filled with links, about the most reprehensible fraud yet perpetrated by the global warming denial industry: The Real Story of Climategate.

A year ago today, an unidentified hacker published a zipped folder in several locations online. In this folder were approximately one thousand emails and three thousand files which had been stolen from the backup server of the Climatic Research Unit in the UK, a top centre for global temperature analysis and climate change studies. As links to the folder were passed around on blogs and online communities, a small group of people sorted through the emails, picking out a handful of phrases that could be seen as controversial, and developing a narrative which they pushed to the media with all their combined strength. “A lot is happening behind the scenes,” one blog administrator wrote. “It is not being ignored. Much is being coordinated among major players and the media. Thank you very much. You will notice the beginnings of activity on other sites now. Here soon to follow.”

This was not the work of a computer-savvy teenager that liked to hack security systems for fun. Whoever the thief was, they knew what they were looking for. They knew how valuable the emails could be in the hands of the climate change denial movement.

Read the whole thing — it’s very good.

And here’s my first reaction, from November 2009: Global Warming Nontroversy of the Day.

Reading the summaries that these folks have posted, such as the one in this almost comically exaggerated article by Telegraph writer James Delingpole, one thing stands out — there’s no there there. There’s no evidence of a conspiracy to commit massive fraud. There are no admissions of faking data. The worst thing they’ve dug up out of thousands of emails is this one referring to a “trick” used to adjust warming data, which Delingpole dramatically labels “Manipulation of evidence:”

I’ve just completed Mike’s Nature trick of adding in the real temps to each series for the last 20 years (ie from 1981 onwards) amd from 1961 for Keith’s to hide the decline.

“Trick,” of course, can also mean “an effective technique,” but if you were desperately hunting for anything smear-worthy, I suppose the word would stand out.

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114 comments
1 insanity police  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:24:30pm

There's no climate change according to Carl Rove. Climate is dead. Idiots.

2 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:27:17pm

It was amazing to me the amount of credence that people put into the cherrypicked emails almost immediately, convincing themselves that scientists were up to no good.

People don't appear to realize how cutthroat the world of science is, the pressure that already operates to hold scientists in line. Peer review isn't a buddy-buddy club of people stroking each other's egos, it's also a ruthless examination.

The anti-science streak in the US-- and in Britain, apparently-- is wide and deep, and it really came out during 'climategate'. Instead of people defending the scientists, we had every amateur nudnick who thought he somehow was going to discover a smoking gun of scientific misconduct poring over the emails. Instead of an effort to find those responsible for the hacking, theft, and propaganda, we had people popularizing the propaganda, making all sorts of easily-disprovable claims about what the emails said.

It was pretty shameful.

3 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:27:40pm

Some of this, strangely enough, is Al Gore's fault. He thought he could simply retire from politics, embrace this cause and make it an issue that was above political posturing.

He was wrong: he made himself into a lightning rod for criticism. People who hated him for his politics transfered their hatred to rejecting AGW.

And for all his sincere efforts to spread the word, actually wond up doing more harm than good.

4 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:29:28pm

re: #3 ralphieboy

That's not his fault, per se. That's just how it worked out. It isn't his fault he got smeared, nor is it his fault that he is a polarizing figure. He provided an easy target; the fault still lies with those taking the shots.

Whoever was the most prominent figurehead would have wound up tarred and feathered just as he did.

5 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:30:15pm

re: #2 Obdicut

Reminds me of an incident in Orange Country, Florida, in which a neighbor videotaped a couple making love in their own bathroom, but who had inadvertently left the blind open enough for the neighbor to see in.

The couple was fined for "indecent exposure" while the peeping tom got off unscathed.

6 Renaissance_Man  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:30:42pm

re: #3 ralphieboy

Some of this, strangely enough, is Al Gore's fault. He thought he could simply retire from politics, embrace this cause and make it an issue that was above political posturing.

He was wrong: he made himself into a lightning rod for criticism. People who hated him for his politics transfered their hatred to rejecting AGW.

And for all his sincere efforts to spread the word, actually wond up doing more harm than good.

Given the amount of money with vested interest in spreading misinformation about climate change, do you really think that the reactionary fools who reject science would have embraced climate change if only Al Gore hadn't championed it?

I think not. The Conservative cult has had decades of indoctrination to hate anything that Rush or other demagogues associate with 'liberals', including anything even vaguely involving the environment.

7 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:31:57pm

re: #4 Obdicut

Whoever was the most prominent figurehead would have wound up tarred and feathered just as he did.

Agreed, Gore's mistake was thinking that he could divorce himself from his political past that quickly and easily.

Divorcing himself from Tipper turned out to be a lot easier, I guess...

8 McSpiff  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:33:39pm

re: #3 ralphieboy

No, its the fault of the people who broke the law, and those who used the emails unethically. Your comments about Gore are nothing more than a sad attempt at misdirection.

9 engineer cat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:34:34pm

“Trick,” of course, can also mean “an effective technique,”

indeed, this can be easily proven by doing an amazon search on programming tips and tricks

10 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:34:55pm

re: #8 McSpiff

I don't think Ralphieboy is attempting to misdirect; I think you're reading rather too much into his comments.

I disagree with him, but I don't think he's attempting misdirection.

11 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:35:41pm

re: #8 McSpiff

No, its the fault of the people who broke the law, and those who used the emails unethically. Your comments about Gore are nothing more than a sad attempt at misdirection.

denying Gores negative influence of AmIdol voters is totally disengenuous....he's an obvious elitist

12 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:36:18pm

re: #2 Obdicut

It was amazing to me the amount of credence that people put into the cherrypicked emails almost immediately, convincing themselves that scientists were up to no good.

People don't appear to realize how cutthroat the world of science is, the pressure that already operates to hold scientists in line. Peer review isn't a buddy-buddy club of people stroking each other's egos, it's also a ruthless examination.

The anti-science streak in the US-- and in Britain, apparently-- is wide and deep, and it really came out during 'climategate'. Instead of people defending the scientists, we had every amateur nudnick who thought he somehow was going to discover a smoking gun of scientific misconduct poring over the emails. Instead of an effort to find those responsible for the hacking, theft, and propaganda, we had people popularizing the propaganda, making all sorts of easily-disprovable claims about what the emails said.

It was pretty shameful.

People very badly wanted to believe what it said, so the response was not at all measured, but very over the top. It happens.

13 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:36:25pm

I was being a bit facetious about it being his "fault", but he did make a big mistake in thinking he would somehow not become a lighning rod for criticism (justified or unjustified) based on his past political affiliations.

14 McSpiff  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:36:30pm

re: #10 Obdicut

I don't think Ralphieboy is attempting to misdirect; I think you're reading rather too much into his comments.

I disagree with him, but I don't think he's attempting misdirection.

Bringing up Al Gore's divorce isn't an attempt to derail the discussion, really?

15 theheat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:36:39pm

re: #3 ralphieboy

Not to mention Glenn Beck shared the outrage about Holocaust survivor Irene Sendler being ignored because Al Gore won the Nobel Peace Prize for his piece of climate change fantasy. I just got an old FW FW FWd to me yesterday about that. Big fonts, lots of outrage, maybe a kitten. The typical FW FW wingnut email.

16 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:37:30pm

re: #14 McSpiff

Bringing up Al Gore's divorce isn't an attempt to derail the discussion, really?


That was entirely his own fault. Tipper was a true blue. I know, I hit on her dozens of times and she never went for it


/

17 Big Steve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:37:52pm

re: #15 theheat

.... maybe a kitten

LOL

18 McSpiff  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:37:52pm

re: #11 albusteve

denying Gores negative influence of AmIdol voters is totally disengenuous...he's an obvious elitist

Right, Al Gore is a dick. That's relevant how?

19 Interesting Times  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:38:02pm

re: #6 Renaissance_Man

I think not. The Conservative cult has had decades of indoctrination to hate anything that Rush or other demagogues associate with 'liberals', including anything even vaguely involving the environment.

And any member of the GOP who fails to fall in line suffers the consequences:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

I'm glad he's speaking out, though. I hope someone with power listens to him before things get even worse.

20 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:38:42pm

re: #14 McSpiff

Bringing up Al Gore's divorce isn't an attempt to derail the discussion, really?

Yes, really. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

I do think bringing up Al Gore is missing the point. It's not, however, automatically dishonestly missing the point.

21 samuraishake  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:39:22pm

It's funny that climate deniers think the 3% of scientists who disagree with the other 97% deserve equal time in the media. I'm sure at least 3% of the population would go along with this crackpot biblical theory, but that doesn't mean it should get 50% of the airtime.

If the 3% minority had any hard science to stand on the 3% would grow, not shrink.

22 albusteve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:39:32pm

re: #18 McSpiff

Right, Al Gore is a dick. That's relevant how?

people don't always take advice from a dick

23 Charles Johnson  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:39:59pm

It's a law of the Internet that any blog post about climate change must immediately turn into a discussion about Al Gore, even if he has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.

24 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:40:48pm

What I want people to take away from this is three things:

1. AGW is real. It threatens our very civilization and the lives of billions. This is not hyperbole. Look at the data that proves it is true which comes from thousands of sources. Look at the 60 years of scientists warning about it. Look at the science about what is coming down the pike. There is no threat greater to us as a species. The consequences are famine, drought, flooding, plague and war over basic resources like food and water.

If we do nothing, billions die and our civilization as we know it, ends. This is the hard truth. Any discussion about AGW that does not start with that firmly in mind is a waste of time and frankly, dangerous.

2. We have the technology to avert the worst of it. We do not have to use fossil fuels to generate our power. We do not have to give up our lifestyle to do it. We do not have to destroy our economy to change course. In fact, developing domestic energy sources like nuclear, solar and wind would create millions of jobs, at many different skill levels, that would never go to other nations, in a sector that will only grow. Fixing the problem not only pays for itself, but makes money that would stay in the US - or any other "green" nation - hand over fist. Fixing the problem also fixes many other problems, from smog and health related issues, to security issues to major diplomatic issues. Fixing the problem means telling any number of odious regimes in the Middle East and elsewhere, that we do not need them anymore.

3. The only reason we do not fix this is because of the power of vested interests. Fixing AGW does mean that such "worthy" and "good" folks like BP and Exxon and all the subsidiaries of them go out of business. The only people I feel sorry for in this are coal miners. However, with a green economy, there would be millions of other jobs and the transformation would not happen overnight.

But those oil and coal barons and sheiks have powerful influence over the media and have bought and paid for politicians. They are lying to you and endangering your life and the lives of your children. This is the ultimate expression of I got mine and screw everyone else. The consequences of inaction are so dire, that the only fitting language for them comes from Biblical tales of destruction. These vested interests and their party, the GOP, do not care.

So called "climategate," which was a dishonest smear from teh start, and a reprehensible but sadly successful attempt to confuse the science for many people, was nothing more or less than powerful propaganda from these vested interests. All of the science and the scientists were vindicated multiple times in multiple way. Fox and the GOP don't care about what is true. They care about preventing people from learning the truth and demanding action that would hurt their corporate masters.

And in the mean time, the clock is ticking for all of us.

25 samuraishake  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:41:00pm

re: #22 albusteve

people don't always take advice from a dick

But we go off hard science, not the opinion of a dick. If Al Gore had never been born the science would still be the same, and global warming would be just as real.

26 engineer cat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:41:11pm

as we all know, global warming is a myth because al gore is fat. qed

27 McSpiff  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:41:28pm

re: #22 albusteve

people don't always take advice from a dick

Good thing Al Gore isn't the one doing the science then.

28 Big Steve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:42:00pm

re: #21 samuraishake

It's funny that climate deniers think the 3% of scientists who disagree with the other 97% deserve equal time in the media. I'm sure at least 3% of the population would go along with this crackpot biblical theory, but that doesn't mean it should get 50% of the airtime.

If the 3% minority had any hard science to stand on the 3% would grow, not shrink.

I get your annoyance but a key point of science is that the majority DOES NOT RULE. So just because 97% of all scientists believe it doesn't make it right. What does make global warming right is there is a perfectly good theory and supportable facts. Were a new theory that was backed by facts arrive, it would win. Hasn't happened yet.

29 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:43:37pm

My point was (or tried to be) that Al Gore made a mistake in thinking he could free this topic from its ideological and financial interests and make it a humanitarian and global issue.

Turned out there is too much money at stake and too much ideological background noise for the message to be heard abouve the politicing and posturing.

That is not his fault.

But that does not excuse him for messing around behind Tipper's back.

/

30 Kragar  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:43:54pm
31 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:44:07pm

re: #28 Big Steve

Were a new theory that was backed by facts arrive, it would win. Hasn't happened yet

And the likelihood of it happening is about the likelihood that plate tectonics will be overturned. AGW is an extremely well-established theory that has no competing theories whatsoever.

32 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:44:38pm

re: #23 Charles

It's a law of the Internet that any blog post about climate change must immediately turn into a discussion about Al Gore, even if he has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Which is why it should be pointed out that long before Gore became known for talking about AGW, Margaret Thatcher was its greatest political champion. Reagan and Bush demanded action too.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

In fact, if you read what Thatcher said to the UN, she was much more vehement than Gore.

33 samuraishake  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:44:40pm

re: #28 Big Steve

I get your annoyance but a key point of science is that the majority DOES NOT RULE. So just because 97% of all scientists believe it doesn't make it right. What does make global warming right is there is a perfectly good theory and supportable facts. Were a new theory that was backed by facts arrive, it would win. Hasn't happened yet.

Of course a majority doesn't rule. When the theory of the Earth revolving around the sun was started, there was just one person believing it. My point is that over the last few decades the number of scientists in support has grown to 97%. If it were an untrue theory the number would shrink, not grow.

34 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:44:48pm

re: #28 Big Steve

I get your annoyance but a key point of science is that the majority DOES NOT RULE. So just because 97% of all scientists believe it doesn't make it right. What does make global warming right is there is a perfectly good theory and supportable facts. Were a new theory that was backed by facts arrive, it would win. Hasn't happened yet.

No kidding... "The study detailed Americans' deep and broad religiosity, finding that 92 percent believe in God or a universal spirit -- including one in five of those who call themselves atheists. More than half of Americans polled pray at least once a day."

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

Doesn't make god any more real just because people believe in the concept.

35 Big Steve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:44:56pm

re: #24 LudwigVanQuixote

Why would you feel sorry for a coal miner but not for say an operator at a Shell refinery?

36 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:45:10pm

re: #25 samuraishake

If Al Gore had never been born the science would still be the same, and global warming would be just as real.

But ...with out Al Gores Carbon Footprint!
Which is HUGE!!!
//

37 McSpiff  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:45:31pm

re: #20 Obdicut

Yes, really. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

I do think bringing up Al Gore is missing the point. It's not, however, automatically dishonestly missing the point.

Meh, I think controlling the discussion largely controls the outcome. I don't think Al Gore could accidentally come up this many times if there wasn't a certain degree of dishonesty.If you think defending Al Gore's honor does more than the pointing how totally and completely the wrong the right was about 'Climategate' you can have that argument again. I'd rather get into the meat of the matter.

38 Varek Raith  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:45:41pm
39 Big Steve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:46:10pm

re: #31 Obdicut

And the likelihood of it happening is about the likelihood that plate tectonics will be overturned. AGW is an extremely well-established theory that has no competing theories whatsoever.

I think we are agreeing.....it wins due to being a better theory but not because of the number of scientists who believe or not.

40 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:46:22pm

re: #30 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

And now for a reasoned GOP response to your statement.

LOL.. So true.

41 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:46:50pm

re: #37 McSpiff

I have no idea what you're talking about. I certainly think that many people bring up Al Gore in order to derail conversations. I don't think Ralphieboy did, though. I think the reason he brought up Gore is because the anti-AGW propaganda machine is really good at getting people to reflexively think about Al Gore any time AGW is mentioned.

42 samuraishake  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:46:51pm

re: #28 Big Steve

re: #34 Walter L. Newton

I get your annoyance but a key point of science is that the majority DOES NOT RULE. So just because 97% of all scientists believe it doesn't make it right. What does make global warming right is there is a perfectly good theory and supportable facts. Were a new theory that was backed by facts arrive, it would win. Hasn't happened yet.

My annoyance was actually more directed at the 3% demanding they get 50% of the airtime. I can quote scientific facts all day if you want. I wasn't using the 97% number to say it's real (the science does the talking for me) - I was using it to illustrate the imbalance in the media.

43 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:47:04pm

re: #35 Big Steve

Why would you feel sorry for a coal miner but not for say an operator at a Shell refinery?

Because he is better educated and knows better the harm he is causing.

44 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:48:15pm

re: #26 engineer dog

as we all know, global warming is a myth because al gore is fat. qed

But what about Thatcher? She was just as vehement and thin!

45 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:48:29pm

re: #39 Big Steve

But the number of scientists who believe in a theory, in this modern day, post-scientific method, is an extremely, extremely good indicator of what theories are correct.

Very few theories are overturned wholesale anymore. Newton wasn't 'overturned' by Einstein, he was added to. Einstein wasn't 'overturned' by quantum mechanics, but added to. Darwin wasn't overturned by the Modern Synthesis, but completely validated and added to.

46 Big Steve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:49:01pm

re: #33 samuraishake

Of course a majority doesn't rule. When the theory of the Earth revolving around the sun was started, there was just one person believing it. My point is that over the last few decades the number of scientists in support has grown to 97%. If it were an untrue theory the number would shrink, not grow.

Still not agreeing and Walter's post 34 is a good example. Religion is growing. Doesn't make it right. Whether a scientific theory is waxing or waning in adherents is irrelivant.

47 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:49:36pm

re: #45 Obdicut

But the number of scientists who believe in a theory, in this modern day, post-scientific method, is an extremely, extremely good indicator of what theories are correct.

Very few theories are overturned wholesale anymore. Newton wasn't 'overturned' by Einstein, he was added to. Einstein wasn't 'overturned' by quantum mechanics, but added to. Darwin wasn't overturned by the Modern Synthesis, but completely validated and added to.

And Galileo was overturned by the Inquisition, beaten a bit more, overturned and beaten on the other side...

48 samuraishake  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:50:45pm

re: #46 Big Steve

Still not agreeing and Walter's post 34 is a good example. Religion is growing. Doesn't make it right. Whether a scientific theory is waxing or waning in adherents is irrelivant.

See Obiduct's number 45 re: #45 Obdicut
and see my #42 for my real meaningre: #42 samuraishake

49 Varek Raith  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:50:47pm

re: #46 Big Steve

Still not agreeing and Walter's post 34 is a good example. Religion is growing. Doesn't make it right. Whether a scientific theory is waxing or waning in adherents is irrelivant.

Alright.
Let me instead ask this;
What viable, alternative theory to AGW exists?

50 Big Steve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:51:22pm

re: #43 LudwigVanQuixote

Because he is better educated and knows better the harm he is causing.


My guess is that you don't mean to imply that coal miners are less educated but by far most refinery operators have high school diplomas only.

51 McSpiff  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:52:07pm

re: #41 Obdicut

I have no idea what you're talking about. I certainly think that many people bring up Al Gore in order to derail conversations. I don't think Ralphieboy did, though. I think the reason he brought up Gore is because the anti-AGW propaganda machine is really good at getting people to reflexively think about Al Gore any time AGW is mentioned.

I like to think ralphie is capable of critical thought. Its been pointed out countless times why the Al Gore thing is dishonest. And yet he and others continue. So I either assume ignorance or malice. And I have no idea how any long time reader of LGF could possibly be ignorant of this.

52 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:52:25pm

re: #49 Varek Raith

Sunspot activity.

Geothermal activity.

Anything else that sounds scientific enough to pass as a "teach the controversy" talking point.

53 engineer cat  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:53:05pm

re: #49 Varek Raith

Alright.
Let me instead ask this;
What viable, alternative theory to AGW exists?

intelligent warming and bible based carbon dioxide?

54 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:53:06pm

re: #50 Big Steve

My guess is that you don't mean to imply that coal miners are less educated but by far most refinery operators have high school diplomas only.

"Most miners learn their work on the job by helping experienced miners. Nevertheless, formal training is becoming more important, because miners are starting to use more complex machines and methods. As a result of these changes, mining companies offer special courses to their workers. Beginning miners can start in training mines where they learn the skills safely, or they can go through a classroom program before they begin work in mines.

Often companies prefer to hire those who already have training in mining methods. Some colleges, especially those in mining regions, offer courses in mining methods. Interested students may earn a certificate in mine studies in one year or an associate degree in two years."

[Link: careers.stateuniversity.com...]

Poor, stupid, uneducated miners.

55 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:53:19pm

re: #6 Renaissance_Man

Given the amount of money with vested interest in spreading misinformation about climate change, do you really think that the reactionary fools who reject science would have embraced climate change if only Al Gore hadn't championed it?

I think not. The Conservative cult has had decades of indoctrination to hate anything that Rush or other demagogues associate with 'liberals', including anything even vaguely involving the environment.

Which is why it is so important to remind them of hat Thatcher, Reagan and Bush Sr. said on the topic.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Here are some quotes from Thatcher:

"While the conventional, political dangers - the threat of global annihilation, the fact of regional war - appear to be receding, we have all recently become aware of another insidious danger. It is as menacing in its way as those more accustomed perils with which international diplomacy has concerned itself for centuries. It is the prospect of irretrievable damage to the atmosphere, to the oceans, to earth itself.

What we are now doing to the world, by degrading the land surfaces, by polluting the waters and by adding greenhouse gases to the air at an unprecedented rate - all this is new in the experience of the earth. It is mankind and his activities that are changing the environment of our planet in damaging and dangerous ways.

The result is that change in future is likely to be more fundamental and more widespread than anything we have known hitherto. Change to the sea around us, change to the atmosphere above, leading in turn to change in the world's climate, which could alter the way we live in the most fundamental way of all. That prospect is a new factor in human affairs. It is comparable in its implications to the discovery of how to split the atom. Indeed, its results could be even more far-reaching.

The evidence is there. The damage is being done. What do we, the international community, do about it?...

In some areas, the action required is primarily for individual nations or groups of nations to take. But the problem of global climate change is one that affects us all and action will only be effective if it is taken at the international level. It is no good squabbling over who is responsible or who should pay. We have to look forward not backward, and we shall only succeed in dealing with the problems through a vast international, co-operative effort.

The environmental challenge that confronts the whole world demands an equivalent response from the whole world. Every country will be affected and no one can opt out. Those countries who are industrialised must contribute more to help those who are not.

The work ahead will be long and exacting. We should embark on it hopeful of success, not fearful of failure. Darwin's voyages were among the high-points of scientific discovery. They were undertaken at a time when men and women felt growing confidence that we could not only understand the natural world but we could master it, too. Today, we have learned rather more humility and respect for the balance of nature. But another of the beliefs of Darwin's era should help to see us through - the belief in reason and the scientific method.

56 Big Steve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:53:34pm

re: #49 Varek Raith

Alright.
Let me instead ask this;
What viable, alternative theory to AGW exists?

agreed..... AGW is the best theory out there.

57 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:54:04pm

re: #51 McSpiff

Whatever, dude. If you want to convince yourself Ralphieboy is conspiring to derail the thread, go ahead.

It involves ignoring his other comments in the thread, of course.

58 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:54:39pm

re: #50 Big Steve

My guess is that you don't mean to imply that coal miners are less educated but by far most refinery operators have high school diplomas only.

Then they are in the same boat. I was thinking more about the various Oil geologist types who I thought were working the rigs.

Fine. It is a secondary point.

There will be new jobs for them also.

59 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:56:15pm

re: #49 Varek Raith

Alright.
Let me instead ask this;
What viable, alternative theory to AGW exists?

NONE.

From the timescales, magnitude, energy budget and warming patterns themselves as well as our own knowledge of our own emissions, there is no other plausible cause.

WE are doing this.

60 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:56:30pm

re: #51 McSpiff

I like to think ralphie is capable of critical thought. Its been pointed out countless times why the Al Gore thing is dishonest. And yet he and others continue. So I either assume ignorance or malice. And I have no idea how any long time reader of LGF could possibly be ignorant of this.


My point attempted to address the extreme malice directed at any public figure who embraces global warming and even those scientists (who are not public figures, just professionals, most of whom are quietly doing their jobs as best as they know how to) who are addressing the issue.

But I do keep harping on his divorce from Tipper because I am still a bit of a gadfly on that point. How could he betray her after that kiss at the 2000 Democratic convention?

61 McSpiff  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:57:28pm

re: #57 Obdicut

Not sure where I ever said 'conspiring'. The Al Gore thing is a right wing talking point to derail the discussion on AGW. It's pretty well the text book example of misdirection. I have no idea why you of all people would disagree with this.

62 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 12:58:12pm

re: #56 Big Steve

agreed... AGW is the best theory out there.

That is theory in the scientific sense though - which to non-science people, means:

a fact proven to the best that the entire scientific community and all available data can tell to a standard far more strict than that in any court of law.

63 Varek Raith  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:00:08pm

re: #59 LudwigVanQuixote

NONE.

From the timescales, magnitude, energy budget and warming patterns themselves as well as our own knowledge of our own emissions, there is no other plausible cause.

WE are doing this.

Indeed.

64 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:00:41pm

re: #61 McSpiff

McSpiff: Sorry to interrupt, but then you have a chance could you post the link to your AutoGAZE script again? I'm using it and it works great, but I neglected to save the URL. TIA.

65 Big Steve  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:00:56pm

re: #58 LudwigVanQuixote

Then they are in the same boat. I was thinking more about the various Oil geologist types who I thought were working the rigs.

Fine. It is a secondary point.

There will be new jobs for them also.

laughing regarding the picture of a geologist working on a rig......trust me on this in most refinery, oil rigs, chemical plants, drilling platforms, pipeline stations.....ect......no one but no one would trust an engineer, geologist, or any other person with letters behind their name to even touch the equipment.

By the way agree with your point, we must move away from a fossil fuel based lifestyle for lots of reasons including AGW and a whole lot of people, myself included (if I live that long or haven't joined the fabled joys of retirement) will have to be retained.

66 Kragar  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:01:05pm

So a guy in the office is talking about a band and says "I really like the pianist."

From 3 different cubicles, "THATS WHAT SHE SAID!"

67 McSpiff  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:02:04pm

re: #60 ralphieboy

My point attempted to address the extreme malice directed at any public figure who embraces global warming and even those scientists (who are not public figures, just professionals, most of whom are quietly doing their jobs as best as they know how to) who are addressing the issue.

But I do keep harping on his divorce from Tipper because I am still a bit of a gadfly on that point. How could he betray her after that kiss at the 2000 Democratic convention?

Right, which is why you said it was Gore's fault. That's a very different message to me than what you posted here. Same with bringing up Gore's divorce. Irrelevant to an honest discussion about CRU.

68 Kragar  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:02:19pm

re: #59 LudwigVanQuixote

NONE.

From the timescales, magnitude, energy budget and warming patterns themselves as well as our own knowledge of our own emissions, there is no other plausible cause.

WE are doing this.

So you're completely discounting the George Soros Orbital Magnifying Glass as a culprit?
/

69 Varek Raith  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:02:55pm

re: #68 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

So you're completely discounting the George Soros Orbital Magnifying Glass as a culprit?
/

No.
It's pixie farts.

70 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:03:24pm

re: #61 McSpiff

Not sure where I ever said 'conspiring'. The Al Gore thing is a right wing talking point to derail the discussion on AGW. It's pretty well the text book example of misdirection. I have no idea why you of all people would disagree with this.

Because I think you're wrong that Ralphieboy did that in order to derail the discussion. I'm not sure how I can be much clearer.

That it's a right wing talking point doesn't mean that everyone who says it is doing so because they consciously are repeating a right-wing talking point; the point of talking points is that they're memes.

Sheesh.

71 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:03:43pm

re: #57 Obdicut

Obdi: BTW, thanks for the other morning. You saved me a lot of (mostly self-inflicted) agita by dealing with that situation.

72 McSpiff  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:03:52pm

re: #64 CuriousLurker

McSpiff: Sorry to interrupt, but then you have a chance could you post the link to your AutoGAZE script again? I'm using it and it works great, but I neglected to save the URL. TIA.

[Link: dl.dropbox.com...] should work

73 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:05:09pm

re: #39 Big Steve

I think we are agreeing...it wins due to being a better theory but not because of the number of scientists who believe or not.

It wins on the massive amounts of evidence collected by hundreds of thousands of people over hundreds of years. Don't forget the naval record.

74 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:05:31pm

re: #68 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

So you're completely discounting the George Soros Orbital Magnifying Glass as a culprit?
/

LOL 'fraid so.

75 McSpiff  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:06:46pm

re: #70 Obdicut

Because I think you're wrong that Ralphieboy did that in order to derail the discussion. I'm not sure how I can be much clearer.

That it's a right wing talking point doesn't mean that everyone who says it is doing so because they consciously are repeating a right-wing talking point; the point of talking points is that they're memes.

Sheesh.

I think that takes a large degree of naivety in this case but I'll agree to disagree.

76 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:07:29pm

re: #75 McSpiff

That's nice.

77 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:07:50pm

re: #71 CuriousLurker

I totally forget what you're referring to, but I'll gladly take your thanks anyway.

78 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:08:51pm

It should also be pointed out that:

“Trick,” of course, can also mean “an effective technique,” but if you were desperately hunting for anything smear-worthy, I suppose the word would stand out.

The trick here was to use the actual thermometer readings rather than the corrupted tree ring data, and that the corrupted tree ring data was published anyway.

79 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:09:57pm

re: #75 McSpiff


me-me-me-me-meme:

Heck, I don't know nothin' about no science behind global warming, but I know I don't like Al Gore, and that is reason enough for me to reject it.

/

80 McSpiff  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:10:06pm

re: #78 LudwigVanQuixote

It should also be pointed out that:

The trick here was to use the actual thermometer readings rather than the corrupted tree ring data, and that the corrupted tree ring data was published anyway.

Trickies scientists, with their fancy shmancy data!

81 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:10:39pm

re: #72 McSpiff

[Link: dl.dropbox.com...] should work

Thanks!

82 lostlakehiker  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:10:41pm

re: #11 albusteve

denying Gores negative influence of AmIdol voters is totally disengenuous...he's an obvious elitist

It's not that Gore's an elitist. He's not, really. Certainly he's not a meritocratic elitist. The problem with Gore is that in popularizing AGW, he cut corners on accuracy. This left him and his work open to attack, and the attacks by extension hurt the credibility of real AGW scientists.

Gore also has profited enormously from it all, not so much by seeing the future and placing his bets, but from being connected and having those connections ensure the success of his bets.

This, combined with his penchant for mansions that beggar those owned by self-made billionaires, gives rise to the suspicion that he speaks not so much from conviction but from love of money.

The whole cause of alerting people to the dangers of AGW and to the need to act would have been much better served if Gore had been more careful about his facts and less eager to profit in ways that aren't maybe strictly illegal but that are open to none but the very well connected.

83 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:10:48pm

Ot- and the outrage grows...

"New York — Today on the steps of City Hall, Councilman David G. Greenfield was joined by Council Members Gale Brewer, Fernando Cabrera, Debi Rose, Robert Jackson, Jumaane Williams, and Brad Lander in support of legislation that would ban the use of full body scanners in New York City, including New York’s two airports – JFK International Airport and LaGuardia Airport. The Council Members were also joined by privacy expert Marc Rotenberg, a professor of law at Georgetown University and President of the Electronic Privacy Information Center (EPIC), who is leading a lawsuit to suspend the deployment of body scanners at US airports, pending an independent review."

[Link: www.theyeshivaworld.com...]

84 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:11:43pm

re: #77 Obdicut

I totally forget what you're referring to, but I'll gladly take your thanks anyway.

The rude atheist thing. ;o)

85 Varek Raith  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:12:08pm

re: #84 CuriousLurker

The rude atheist thing. ;o)

I DIDN'T DO IT!
;)

86 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:12:24pm

re: #84 CuriousLurker

Oh, right. No problem.

87 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:12:58pm

re: #82 lostlakehiker

Please name a way that Gore cut a corner on accuracy in reference to AGW.

88 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:14:45pm

re: #85 Varek Raith

I DIDN'T DO IT!
;)

No, you didn't. Most of the atheists here are really nice and well informed.

(Shh—please don't tell the religious police I said that!!11!)

89 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:14:56pm

re: #80 McSpiff

Trickies scientists, with their fancy shmancy data!

The point is that claiming that there was a trick in the bad sense of the word and that something was hidden, is a triple lie.

1. First it is a lie by purposefully using "trick" in the wrong context.

2. Second, what was actually referred to, was a use of more reliable data from easy to read thermometers, not less reliable data from a corrupted patch of tree rings.

3. Third, the corrupted ring data was published anyway, so nothing was ever hidden at any time.

90 Varek Raith  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:15:43pm

re: #88 CuriousLurker

No, you didn't. Most of the atheists here are really nice and well informed.

(Shh—please don't tell the religious police I said that!!11!)

Ok. :)
I know I can sometimes get carried away with it.

91 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:15:45pm

re: #89 LudwigVanQuixote

The idea that any scientists refused to reveal their data is kind of funny. If they did so, the people who would be howling bloody murder about it would be-- other scientists.

92 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:16:43pm

re: #84 CuriousLurker

The rude atheist thing. ;o)

Huh? Was I giving you grief? I didn't even see you in that conversation and I think Obdi and I see pretty clearly where we were both coming from now.

93 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:17:34pm

re: #91 Obdicut

The idea that any scientists refused to reveal their data is kind of funny. If they did so, the people who would be howling bloody murder about it would be-- other scientists.

Damn straight. It wouldn't be some hack on Fox who "just happened" to figure it out.

94 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:18:20pm

re: #33 samuraishake

Of course a majority doesn't rule. When the theory of the Earth revolving around the sun was started, there was just one person believing it. My point is that over the last few decades the number of scientists in support has grown to 97%. If it were an untrue theory the number would shrink, not grow.

I'd suggest it's not about "what is true" but about "how laymen can know what is probably true in regard to complex topics". We can defer to the experts. If the experts have a consensus, then the most reasonable course for a layman is to accept it. It doesn't mean it's some sacred truth or dogma. The consensus may be wrong, and then hopefully with time it will be corrected.

If the so-called "skeptics" deny this approach, they should propose another. I fail to see, though, how another approach is possible. One cannot become an expert at everything. Experts are laymen when it comes to the topics outside their expertise. So how can one function intellectually, without going into the absolute skeptic mode and without becoming an expert on everything?

95 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:19:43pm

re: #92 LudwigVanQuixote

No no, it was some atheist dude who is just contemptuous of all believers and all belief.

96 McSpiff  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:20:14pm

re: #93 LudwigVanQuixote

Damn straight. It wouldn't be some hack on Fox who "just happened" to figure it out.

The fact that they expected to find some grand conspiracy between so many different scientists at different institutions just shows that everything is the team mentality in their world, never mind that back in reality you have everyone from academia, industry and various levels of government involved in producing this data.

97 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:20:45pm

re: #94 Sergey Romanov

I'd suggest it's not about "what is true" but about "how laymen can know what is probably true in regard to complex topics". We can defer to the experts. If the experts have a consensus, then the most reasonable course for a layman is to accept it. It doesn't mean it's some sacred truth or dogma. The consensus may be wrong, and then hopefully with time it will be corrected.

If the so-called "skeptics" deny this approach, they should propose another. I fail to see, though, how another approach is possible. One cannot become an expert at everything. Experts are laymen when it comes to the topics outside their expertise. So how can one function intellectually, without going into the absolute skeptic mode and without becoming an expert on everything?

You forget the insane arrogance and raging conceit of the right, that likes to claim that Sarah Palin has smarts and so does every other bumpkin, that is equivalent to a scientist's.

98 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:21:09pm

re: #95 Obdicut

No no, it was some atheist dude who is just contemptuous of all believers and all belief.

Fair enough.

99 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:21:29pm

re: #92 LudwigVanQuixote

Huh? Was I giving you grief? I didn't even see you in that conversation and I think Obdi and I see pretty clearly where we were both coming from now.

Nope. it was on one of my pages. The atheist in question mostly lurks and has a tendency to pounce on threads where religion is mentioned with a bunch of snark. He really didn't start off especially snarky that time, but my past experience with him made me twitch and start to overreact. Obdi came in with his much more methodical manner & cooler head and dealt with things until the guy lost interest.

100 lostlakehiker  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:21:32pm

re: #32 LudwigVanQuixote

Which is why it should be pointed out that long before Gore became known for talking about AGW, Margaret Thatcher was its greatest political champion. Reagan and Bush demanded action too.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

In fact, if you read what Thatcher said to the UN, she was much more vehement than Gore.

Thatcher got every big thing right. If Britain had a Mount Rushmore, William Pitt, Winston Churchill, and Margaret Thatcher would have to be three of the four. Clement Atlee??

101 McSpiff  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:23:26pm

re: #97 LudwigVanQuixote

Yet they keep going to doctors. Funny that.

102 samuraishake  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:24:04pm

re: #94 Sergey Romanov

So how can one function intellectually, without going into the absolute skeptic mode and without becoming an expert on everything?

Here's a fun instructional video :)

103 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:24:25pm

re: #97 LudwigVanQuixote

You forget the insane arrogance and raging conceit of the right, that likes to claim that Sarah Palin has smarts and so does every other bumpkin, that is equivalent to a scientist's.

They appeal to so-called "common sense". Except their "common sense" is nothing but a bunch catchphrases, platitudes and resentments, with a "sexy" wink on the top of it all.

104 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:24:36pm

re: #100 lostlakehiker

Are you going to name a corner that Gore cut on AGW, or are you unable to support that contention?

105 Varek Raith  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:24:56pm

re: #99 CuriousLurker

Nope. it was on one of my pages. The atheist in question mostly lurks and has a tendency to pounce on threads where religion is mentioned with a bunch of snark. He really didn't start off especially snarky that time, but my past experience with him made me twitch and start to overreact. Obdi came in with his much more methodical manner & cooler head and dealt with things until the guy lost interest.

I found the dude.
Not cool of him.
Not cool.

106 lostlakehiker  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:25:48pm

re: #91 Obdicut

The idea that any scientists refused to reveal their data is kind of funny. If they did so, the people who would be howling bloody murder about it would be-- other scientists.

As I recall, there were in fact some instances of not releasing data. Quite justifiable instances; if I borrow someone else's data and promise to not release it to third parties, because the original investigators want first crack at publication, they can go to that team and ask for the data. Not me.

I don't think any data is flat unavailable.

107 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:27:43pm

re: #106 lostlakehiker

I meant if scientists had refused to release the data that they were using to support actual papers and positions.

The entire point of data is to support your argument. Keeping it secret means you can't do that.

Obviously, data isn't released wholesale the moment it's created. But the raw inputs for all the data were.

108 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:36:06pm

re: #60 ralphieboy

But I do keep harping on his divorce from Tipper because I am still a bit of a gadfly on that point. How could he betray her after that kiss at the 2000 Democratic convention?

Ten years is plenty of time to develop some good old-fashioned mutual resentment.

109 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:37:13pm

re: #105 Varek Raith

I found the dude.
Not cool of him.
Not cool.

{{{VR}}}

Okay, I've gotta stop all this kumbaya atheist-hugging nonsense. //

110 McSpiff  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:39:53pm

re: #109 CuriousLurker

{{{VR}}}

Okay, I've gotta stop all this kumbaya atheist-hugging nonsense. //

*Goes for the awkward side hug anyways*

111 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:41:05pm

re: #110 McSpiff

*Goes for the awkward side hug anyways*

Hahahaha!

112 lostlakehiker  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:47:08pm

re: #104 Obdicut

Are you going to name a corner that Gore cut on AGW, or are you unable to support that contention?


The whole thing has been to court.

Court ruling

To be clear, I think that Gore's central point, AGW is real and dangerous, is correct. Much of the film does a good job. Most of its statements of fact are substantially accurate. But it could have been more careful. Gore went with dramatic when faced with a tradeoff between caveats and drama. This unfortunately opened the door to attacks that would otherwise not have been possible.

And while we're at it, you really have a bad habit of demanding link-based proof to uncontroversial statements. Second case in point, NPR funding. I know, and you know, that NPR gets its funding from a welter of sources, some of which in turn are funded by the federal government, in part or in whole. NPR according to WikipediaThe article specifically explains the contribution to the NPR budget from the corporation for public broadcasting, itself substantially funded by the federal government. My claim, in an earlier post, that NPR did not get 98% of its funding from viewer contributions and the like, and that the direct federal contribution of 2% was a fraction of its indirect federal funding, is correct. Your challenge of the claim was unreasonable.

113 lostlakehiker  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 1:54:51pm

re: #65 Big Steve

laughing regarding the picture of a geologist working on a rig...trust me on this in most refinery, oil rigs, chemical plants, drilling platforms, pipeline stations...ect...no one but no one would trust an engineer, geologist, or any other person with letters behind their name to even touch the equipment.

By the way agree with your point, we must move away from a fossil fuel based lifestyle for lots of reasons including AGW and a whole lot of people, myself included (if I live that long or haven't joined the fabled joys of retirement) will have to be retained.

One of the reasons we must move away from fossil fuels is that in an imaginary world where CO2 is not a greenhouse gas, even so, if we don't, but continue an exponential increase in extraction and use, we shall quite abruptly hit a wall. Our ever better discovery and extraction technology will come up against an immovable fact: no more is there to be found, not in commercially viable quantities.

What then? With billions dependent on stuff that isn't to be had at any price they can begin to pay, there will be a desperate struggle for existence. There won't be any political room for spending what remains of the fuel to build another infrastructure.

We'll simply crash. We'll burn all our coal and oil, and then all our wood, and we'll die anyway. Centuries later, we can begin to rebuild, and maybe get it right next time. Assuming the wars over the last fossil fuel reserves didn't go nuclear.

And that's how things go in an imaginary world where our worst problem, one that is real and inexorable, is waved away with the magic wishing wand.

CO2 is a greenhouse gas.

114 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 18, 2010 2:08:25pm

re: #112 lostlakehiker

Yes, and

Justice Burton's written judgment was released on 10 October 2007. He found that it was clear that the film "is substantially founded upon scientific research and fact, albeit that the science is used, in the hands of a talented politician and communicator, to make a political statement and to support a political programme."

You didn't apparently read the Wiki entry very carefully. There are a handful of tiny areas that were, perhaps, slightly inaccurate. That doesn't rise in any way to your contention that Gore cut corners with the science.

And while we're at it, you really have a bad habit of demanding link-based proof to uncontroversial statements.

You have a bad habit of thinking that statements are uncontroversial, as well as a bad habit of simply lying, like when you claimed we were unique in confronting the recession with a stimulus.

My claim, in an earlier post, that NPR did not get 98% of its funding from viewer contributions and the like, and that the direct federal contribution of 2% was a fraction of its indirect federal funding, is correct. Your challenge of the claim was unreasonable.

That wasn't your claim. If your claim had simply been that, I wouldn't have objected. But you claimed, unsupported, that there were multifarious backdoors by which government funding reached NPR. You failed to support this contention in any way.


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