Your Laughable Breitbart.com Post of the Day: ‘What Gutsy Call?’

Even if Obama had personally parachuted in and gunned down bin Laden, they’d still be whining
Wingnuts • Views: 27,092

You can tell that President Obama’s successful operation to find (and kill) Osama bin Laden really eats at the right wing; the faux arguments from the wingnut blogosphere are getting more and more obtuse and absurd. Of course, they’re writing for an audience that doesn’t care, as long as they get their daily serving of rancid Obama Derangement stew.

Today’s case in point: breitbart.com blogger Ben Shapiro, who actually seems to be arguing that because Obama put a military commander in charge of the operation, and carefully considered the risks, he doesn’t deserve any credit: What ‘Gutsy Call’?: CIA Memo Reveals Admiral Controlled Bin Laden Mission.

The memo doesn’t show a gutsy call. It doesn’t show a president willing to take the blame for a mission gone wrong. It shows a CYA maneuver by the White House.

The memo puts all control in the hands of Admiral McRaven – the “timing, operational decision making and control” are all up to McRaven. So the notion that Obama and his team were walking through every stage of the operation is incorrect. The hero here was McRaven, not Obama. And had the mission gone wrong, McRaven surely would have been thrown under the bus.

The memo is crystal clear on that point. It says that the decision has been made based solely on the “risk profile presented to the President.” If any other risks – no matter how minute – arose, they were “to be brought back to the President for his consideration.” This is ludicrous. It is wiggle room. It was Obama’s way of carving out space for himself in case the mission went bad. If it did, he’d say that there were additional risks of which he hadn’t been informed; he’d been kept in the dark by his military leaders.

Uh… because Obama studied the possible risks of the operation, this means he was just “covering his ass?” How does that make any sense at all?

And what evidence is there for the far-fetched assertion that Obama would have “thrown McRaven under the bus” if the operation had failed? Why, none, of course! Wingnut bloggers have no need for such pedestrian concerns. Obama EVIL!

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84 comments
1 leftynyc  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 1:10:21pm

It absolutely kills them that Pres Obama has that to run on. If it had happened under bush, we never would have heard the end of it as THE GREATEST MILITARY EVENT EVAH!!!

2 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 1:15:59pm

President Obama made the call, even though we didn't have 100% certainty. So that's what's gutsy. You could even call it risky, if you wanted to criticize him.

3 TedStriker  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 1:17:04pm

re: #1 leftynyc

It absolutely kills them that Pres Obama has that to run on. If it had happened under bush, we never would have heard the end of it as THE GREATEST MILITARY EVENT EVAH!!!

Not only that, but if it had happened under Bush, the RWNJs would make sure everyone knew that the credit belonged to Bush as if he came riding in one of those choppers with Seal Team Six, Ride of the Valkyries blaring, and took the kill shot himself.

The RWNJs can't stand that Obama had the gumption to give the green light to an operation that they themselves had championed ever since 9/12.

4 Jymn  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 1:17:18pm

Shapiro drips with gutsy call envy. I don't always agree with Andrew Sullivan but he had a point: if Obama were a Republican he'd be on Mount Rushmore by now.

5 erik_t  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 1:19:44pm

If data exist that Obama did a good thing, contort or outright ignore the data. Film at 11, unless the film shows good things. Then no film for you.

6 lawhawk  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 1:20:13pm

re: #3 ArthurSlugworth

All that would be missing is .... I love the smell of gunpowder and kerosene in the morning.... it smells like.... mission accomplished.

7 Targetpractice  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 1:20:44pm

Wait, so you mean a president allowed the military to run the show, decide what was needed, and make all the important calls except the one to actually carry out the mission? That's unpossible!

///

8 leftynyc  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 1:21:17pm

O/T - Monica Crowley has apologized for the Sandra Fluke comment she made yesterday.

[Link: livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com...]

9 thatthatisis  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 1:24:22pm

C'mon! Of course Obama would have CYA'd and thrown the general under the bus. After all, when the operation Carter okayed to rescue the Iranian hostages went south, he just casually blamed the military in charge, and the whole thing went away, right?

Right??

10 blueraven  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 1:25:26pm

Oh please! If the operation had not been successful, if our guys would have taken on casualties, does anyone not think the president would be in serious trouble right now?

11 Fart Knocker  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 1:28:12pm

This one is so stupid. Of all the things to talk about with regard to President Obama, this is one to focus on? The President's decision to take down the Somali pirates holding the US Captain hostage and his decision to take out bin Laden were both rock solid. They both took guts.

12 erik_t  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 1:30:52pm

re: #11 Darth Vader Gargoyle

This one is so stupid. Of all the things to talk about with regard to President Obama, this is one to focus on?

They didn't choose to focus on it. Obama brought it up, and the usual suspects are bound and fucking determined to fight tooth and nail to be the exact opposite of Obama in every way, at every turn, in every sense on every issue.

It makes it pathetically easy to bait them into showing their true colors. That's why we're talking about Bin Laden in the first place.

13 Fart Knocker  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 1:32:26pm

re: #12 erik_t

They didn't choose to focus on it. Obama brought it up, and the usual suspects are bound and fucking determined to fight tooth and nail to be the exact opposite of Obama in every way, at every turn, in every sense on every issue.

It makes it pathetically easy to bait them into showing their true colors. That's why we're talking about Bin Ladin in the first place.

True. Their response if they were smart would be to give him the appropriate kudos for the mission and move on to a better topic in their favor. This is teh dumb.

14 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 1:41:24pm
Uh… because Obama studied the possible risks of the operation, this means he was just “covering his ass?” How does that make any sense at all?

That is precisely the underlying logic behind the invasion of Iraq. Considering the downside isn't considered important - all that is important is a "feeling" about what the right thing to do is.

I know that seems hyperbolic - but that really is the implication of how Bush described his decision-making process.

The Bush administration’s decision-making process leading to the invasion of Iraq in 2003 has been singled out for its many shortcomings: failure of intelligence; lack of debate concerning options; an insufficient invading force; and poor postwar planning. Contrary to the administration’s claim that no one foresaw the difficulties of waging a war in Iraq, many concerns about the challenges the United States would face were raised inside and outside of government. Yet, none of this information had a significant effect on the decision-making process. This paper develops a decision-making model that integrates elements from the individual to the organizational level and explains how important information was marginalized, leading to a poor policy outcome. The model illustrates how the combined effects of the president’s formal management style, anticipatory compliance on the part of key players, bureaucratic politics, and the intervening variable of the 9/11 terrorist attacks contributed to a defective decision-making process.

[Link: onlinelibrary.wiley.com...]

15 Killgore Trout  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 1:42:49pm

re: #11 Darth Vader Gargoyle

This one is so stupid. Of all the things to talk about with regard to President Obama, this is one to focus on? The President's decision to take down the Somali pirates holding the US Captain hostage and his decision to take out bin Laden were both rock solid. They both took guts.

That's why I think Obama will make the right decision on Iran. He's not afraid of risk or action when necessary. He's made pretty good decisions so far.

16 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 1:45:29pm

Hurrrr.

17 leftynyc  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 1:46:35pm

re: #16 Charles Johnson

Hurrr.

[Embedded content]

I think he has a crush on your cuz nothing else makes sense. He sounds like a jilted lover.

18 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 1:47:42pm

re: #15 Killgore Trout

That's why I think Obama will make the right decision on Iran. He's not afraid of risk or action when necessary. He's made pretty good decisions so far.

Given what I've seen of your defense of Bush, I wonder if that comment reflects a potential misunderstanding of the Bush administration's process on your part.

It wasn't so much that the Bush administration was afraid of risk. Their problem was that they failed to do a basic risk assessment, because they felt doing so undermined the basis of their moral authority for action. It wasn't that they were afraid of risk - it was the opposite, in fact - that they weren't sufficiently afraid of risk because they didn't perform due diligence.

19 HappyWarrior  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 1:51:34pm

You know Breitbart.com writers, it's okay to praise the president even if you don't agree with his policies. What a bunch of sad losers. Obama accomplishes what his predecessors could not and these sad bastards still hate him for it. I know they desperately want to create a narrative that Obama is a terrorist sympathizer but he's just not.

20 erik_t  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 1:51:51pm

re: #16 Charles Johnson

Hurrr.

[Embedded content]

Are you not the woman who kills by testicle-squeezing, or have you not been killed by testicle-squeezing?

Can you be a little more clear, Dan?

21 Cinnabar  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 1:52:32pm

re: #17 leftynyc

I think he has a crush on your cuz nothing else makes sense. He sounds like a jilted lover.

Actually, this one makes absolutely no sense. Even a crush won't account for it.

22 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 1:52:37pm

re: #18 Talking Point Detective

Given what I've seen of your defense of Bush, I wonder if that comment reflects a potential misunderstanding of the Bush administration's process on your part.

It wasn't so much that the Bush administration was afraid of risk. Their problem was that they failed to do a basic risk assessment, because they felt doing so undermined the basis of their moral authority for action. It wasn't that they were afraid of risk - it was the opposite, in fact - that they weren't sufficiently afraid of risk because they didn't perform due diligence.

Bolded for truth.

23 Mattand  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 1:53:58pm

re: #18 Talking Point Detective

Given what I've seen of your defense of Bush, I wonder if that comment reflects a potential misunderstanding of the Bush administration's process on your part.

It wasn't so much that the Bush administration was afraid of risk. Their problem was that they failed to do a basic risk assessment, because they felt doing so undermined the basis of their moral authority for action. It wasn't that they were afraid of risk - it was the opposite, in fact - that they weren't sufficiently afraid of risk because they didn't perform due diligence.

In other words, going with gut feelings when invading and occupying another nation is stupid fucking thing to do.

24 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 1:54:05pm

re: #11 Darth Vader Gargoyle

This one is so stupid. Of all the things to talk about with regard to President Obama, this is one to focus on? The President's decision to take down the Somali pirates holding the US Captain hostage and his decision to take out bin Laden were both rock solid. They both took guts.

Honestly, I think that the "guts" component is a wrong track.

A president should make decisions based on a best assessment of costs and benefits. "Guts" should be pretty much irrelevant. The decision that comes out best in a cost/benefits analysis should be the one that determines the action taken. Decisions taken out of swagger, or a disregard of likely risks is not what you want.

The real problem is when decisions are made more on the basis of political expediency or ideological blindness as opposed to a thorough cost/benefit analysis. You could argue that Bush's invasion took "guts" because he made a decision without a prudent basis in analysis.

25 Mattand  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 1:54:23pm

re: #22 William Barnett-Lewis

Jinx!

26 Killgore Trout  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 1:56:17pm

re: #18 Talking Point Detective

Given what I've seen of your defense of Bush, I wonder if that comment reflects a potential misunderstanding of the Bush administration's process on your part.

It wasn't so much that the Bush administration was afraid of risk. Their problem was that they failed to do a basic risk assessment, because they felt doing so undermined the basis of their moral authority for action. It wasn't that they were afraid of risk - it was the opposite, in fact - that they weren't sufficiently afraid of risk because they didn't perform due diligence.

My opinion of Obama has nothing to do with Bush.

27 TedStriker  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 1:57:33pm

re: #8 leftynyc

O/T - Monica Crowley has apologized for the Sandra Fluke comment she made yesterday.

[Link: livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com...]

Monica, your non-apology is BS and you know it; you're not sorry about your "to a man?" quip, you're sorry that so many people called you out on it like the partisan hack you are.

28 erik_t  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:00:37pm

re: #27 ArthurSlugworth

Monica, your non-apology is BS and you know it; you're not sorry about your "to a man?" quip, you're sorry that so many people called you out on it like the partisan hack you are.

It's one step up from the usual non-apology. 'I apologize to those who were offended' is better than 'I'm sorry anyone was offended'.

Partial credit where partial credit is due.

29 HappyWarrior  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:00:54pm

re: #8 leftynyc

O/T - Monica Crowley has apologized for the Sandra Fluke comment she made yesterday.

[Link: livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com...]

It was a stupid comment and not even that funny honestly. It does look like she's actually saying sorry rather than the usual sorry to those I offended, it wasn't my attention blah blah.

30 dragonath  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:01:37pm

When Bush "landed" on the aircraft carrier during the Mission Accomplished farce, right wingers thought he was God.

But I guess Obama don't got that fuhrerprinzip swing or something. They'd complain about that too.

31 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:02:54pm

re: #28 erik_t

Lots of people say stupid homophobic shit without having the intention of causing offense, because they don't think it should be offensive to casually joke about someone being a lesbian.

32 HappyWarrior  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:02:57pm

re: #30 Rowrbazzle!

When Bush "landed" on the aircraft carrier during the Mission Accomplished farce, right wingers thought he was God.

But I guess Obama don't got that fuhrprinzip swing or something. They'd complain about that too.

It's simple. Obama's not allowed to look good doing something in defense of the country because these guys hate him looking good because they have from the second the Democratic Party nominated him for president wanted to paint him as weak and ineffectual on national security issues.

33 What, me worry?  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:04:15pm

re: #11 Darth Vader Gargoyle

This one is so stupid. Of all the things to talk about with regard to President Obama, this is one to focus on? The President's decision to take down the Somali pirates holding the US Captain hostage and his decision to take out bin Laden were both rock solid. They both took guts.

Did someone mention.... pirates?

He's gotten a few of them, too.

34 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:04:33pm

re: #26 Killgore Trout

My opinion of Obama has nothing to do with Bush.

I'm talking about your observations on decision-making process - and also what I've seen from you in the past in your defense of the invasion.

Concern about the risk of action is part of what I want to be in the mix. From what I've seen, you failed to hold the Bush administration accountable in that regard. The notion that you support Obama's decisions because he's not afraid of the risks of action seems similarly wrong-headed, IMO.

I don't vote for someone base on rhetorical campaigning about how big a candidate's balls are. I vote for someone, in part, on the basis of how I assess their analytical process.

35 blueraven  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:05:48pm

re: #27 ArthurSlugworth

[Embedded content] Monica, your non-apology is BS and you know it; you're not sorry about your "to a man?" quip, you're sorry that so many people called you out on it like the partisan hack you are.

Just what was her intent with the question; To a man?
How are people supposed to interpret that any other way?

36 Killgore Trout  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:06:12pm

re: #34 Talking Point Detective

I'm talking about your observations on decision-making process - and also what I've seen from you in the past in your defense of the invasion.

I was opposed to the invasion of Iraq.

37 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:08:09pm

re: #36 Killgore Trout

I was opposed to the invasion of Iraq.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my impression is that you've defended the decision. In fact, you called me a "moonbat" (or something to that effect) specifically because I criticized the analytical process that justified the invasion.

If I remember incorrectly, I apologize.

38 What, me worry?  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:09:04pm

re: #18 Talking Point Detective

You have to wonder about the same Bush Administration intelligence that got us into the Iraq war. Something about WMDs, as I recall?

39 engineer cat  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:11:13pm

the gop is nominating this guy???

We’ve always encouraged young people: Take a shot, go for it, take a risk, get the education, borrow money if you have to from your parents, start a business

hey, you could even cash in those bonds your grandmother left you!

40 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:11:38pm

re: #38 What, me worry?

You have to wonder about the same Bush Administration intelligence that got us into the Iraq war. Something about WMDs, as I recall?

Intelligence that wasn't sufficiently vetted - with an eye towards the risky ramifications if it were wrong.

In fact, they deliberately undermined analysis that questioned the validity of the WMD evidence. That reflects, directly, a disregard for risk.

41 Killgore Trout  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:12:37pm

re: #37 Talking Point Detective

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my impression is that you've defended the decision. In fact, you called me a "moonbat" (or something to that effect) specifically because I criticized the analytical process that justified the invasion.

If I remember incorrectly, I apologize.

I don't recall but that's possible. My opposition to the Iraq war was pretty different than most liberals. Things like the Downing Street Memo and conspiracy theories about wars for Israel or simplistic and childish theories about getting revenge for his daddy had nothing to do with my opposition to the war.

42 erik_t  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:13:27pm

re: #39 engineer cat

the gop is nominating this guy???

We’ve always encouraged young people: Take a shot, go for it, take a risk, get the education, borrow money if you have to from your parents, start a business

hey, you could even cash in those bonds your grandmother left you!

Well, you're sure not going to get that home loan from something so hoi polloi as a bank!

43 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:17:40pm

re: #41 Killgore Trout

I don't recall but that's possible. My opposition to the Iraq war was pretty different than most liberals. Things like the Downing Street Memo and conspiracy theories about wars for Israel or simplistic and childish theories about getting revenge for his daddy had nothing to do with my opposition to the war.

That is a pretty inaccurate generalization. I think that the memo was reflective of a real problem - but the war for Israel or revenge for daddy had nothing to do with my opposition either.

My opposition was based, basically, on an irresponsible discounting of risk that was based on a very poor analytical process - in fact an analytical process that deliberately and systematically undermined any conflicting data because it ran in contrast to a preconceived ideological and political agenda (as reflected in PNAC documents).

It is precisely your conflation of different opposition, and the lumping of it all into the "moonbat" category that I'm pointing to here. I saw that all over the rightwing in the lead up to the invasion, and it was ubiquitous at this very site.

Parroting righting memes is not the same thing as holding the left wing accountable.

44 erik_t  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:17:55pm

re: #41 Killgore Trout

I don't recall but that's possible. My opposition to the Iraq war was pretty different than most liberals. Things like the Downing Street Memo and conspiracy theories about wars for Israel or simplistic and childish theories about getting revenge for his daddy had nothing to do with my opposition to the war.

By extension, may I presume that you are claiming that most liberals opposed the Iraq War because of conspiracy theories or the belief that the younger Bush was out for personal revenge?

45 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:18:58pm

re: #44 erik_t

By extension, may I presume that you are claiming that most liberals opposed the Iraq War because of conspiracy theories or the belief that the younger Bush was out for personal revenge?

Precisely.

46 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:21:36pm

re: #15 Killgore Trout

That's why I think Obama will make the right decision on Iran. He's not afraid of risk or action when necessary. He's made pretty good decisions so far.

Agreed.

47 What, me worry?  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:21:37pm

re: #40 Talking Point Detective

Intelligence that wasn't sufficiently vetted - with an eye towards the risky ramifications if it were wrong.

In fact, they deliberately undermined analysis that questioned the validity of the WMD evidence. That reflects, directly, a disregard for risk.

Indeed. I was actually in favor of the Iraq war for a very long time and I'm probably the only liberal on the planet who felt that way, WMDs or no. Now I think that revolution has to come from within. Anyone who enters a country will always be seen as an occupier even if they have the best intentions. And of course, it's never that cut and dry.

The weapons inspectors had been in Iraq about 12 years prior to the U.S. invasion and they could never confirm what Hussein had, other than chemical warfare which he had already used on the Kurds, killing some 200,000 I believe. So the whole WMD was a ruse and I believe Bush knew that from the get go.

48 dragonath  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:25:29pm

Daaaaaaamn you confounded hippies! If it weren't for you meddling libs...!

49 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:25:38pm

re: #47 What, me worry?

Indeed. I was actually in favor of the Iraq war for a very long time and I'm probably the only liberal on the planet who felt that way, WMDs or no. Now I think that revolution has to come from within. Anyone who enters a country will always be seen as an occupier even if they have the best intentions. And of course, it's never that cut and dry.

The weapons inspectors had been in Iraq about 12 years prior to the U.S. invasion and they could never confirm what Hussein had, other than chemical warfare which he had already used on the Kurds, killing some 200,000 I believe. So the whole WMD was a ruse and I believe Bush knew that from the get go.

I actually don't think that he knew so. I don't think that he would have taken the risk of justifying the invasion on the basis of WMD if he actually knew they didn't exist. I don't think he had that political courage.

I think that he was just willing to jettison rational cost/benefit analysis on the basis of ideological justification. He basically stated exactly that in interviews. He stated that he didn't worry about negative consequences because god told him his decision-making was correct, and he was supported in such views by those who were blinded by a driving vision of American hegemony.

50 What, me worry?  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:25:44pm

A most excellent look at the Iraq war is on PBS here. This will give you something to do if you can't sleep at night ;)

[Link: www.pbs.org...]

Towards the bottom is "Gunning for Sadaam" and "The Survival of Sadaam" which gives a lot of insight into what we knew prior to the invasion.

51 Lidane  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:29:02pm

Sorry for the OT, but this is also laughable:

Romney’s Advice To Students: Borrow Money From Your Parents

If you’re young and you want to start your own business, Mitt Romney has some advice from you: Borrow money from your parents. At a “lecture” for students at Otterbein University in Ohio today, Mitt Romney told students that, his friend, Jimmy John, started a business by borrowing $20,000 from his parents at a low interest rate. Romney suggested anyone in the audience could do the same.

52 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:30:09pm

re: #51 Lidane

Holy crap. He just doesn't get it.

Oh, and did you email me and it get spam-bucketed, or didn't you get around to it?

53 What, me worry?  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:30:17pm

re: #49 Talking Point Detective

I actually don't think that he knew so. I don't think that he would have taken the risk of justifying the invasion on the basis of WMD if he actually knew they didn't exist. I don't think he had that political courage.

I think that he was just willing to overthrow rational cost/benefit analysis on the basis of ideological justification. He basically stated exactly that in interviews. He stated that he didn't worry about negative consequences because god told him his decision-making was correct, and he was supported in such views by those who were blinded by a driving vision of American hegemony.

Part of the problem maybe.

It didn't take a rocket scientist to see it. Lil' ole me read it in the links I gave you. David Kay, the head of weapons inspections at the time, said there was no way to verify what Sadaam had. He kept running them on wild goose chases. All of a sudden, by 2002-3, Kay was front and center going back on everything he previously stated.

Many years later, Kay confessed to lying about all of it in a Slate interview which I can't seem to find now, but someone here at LGF pointed it out. I'll keep looking.

54 Lidane  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:31:00pm

re: #52 Obdicut

Holy crap. He just doesn't get it.

Oh, and did you email me and it get spam-bucketed, or didn't you get around to it?

Sorry, no. Been fairly wiped out so I haven't emailed you yet. I definitely plan to though.

55 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:31:38pm

re: #54 Lidane

No worries, just making sure it didn't get filtered. Take your time.

56 Killgore Trout  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:31:54pm

re: #43 Talking Point Detective

That is a pretty inaccurate generalization. I think that the memo was reflective of a real problem - but the war for Israel or revenge for daddy had nothing to do with my opposition either.

Ah, then that explains our difference of opinion.

57 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:38:52pm

re: #53 What, me worry?

Part of the problem maybe.

It didn't take a rocket scientist to see it. Lil' ole me read it in the links I gave you. David Kay, the head of weapons inspections at the time, said there was no way to verify what Sadaam had. He kept running them on wild goose chases. All of a sudden, by 2002-3, Kay was front and center going back on everything he previously stated.

Many years later, Kay confessed to lying about all of it in a Slate interview which I can't seem to find now, but someone here at LGF pointed it out. I'll keep looking.

We'll never know for sure. My guess is that they undermined any conflicting information in an inherently ambiguous situation because of ideological blinders and arrogance born out of a sense that ambiguity=weakness.

The reason why I feel that way is that I find it hard to believe that they would justify the invasion on WMD if they actually believed that they didn't exist. Of course, justifying the invasion on a nation-building rationale wouldn't have netted sufficient public support - so I can't rule out the argument that they knew the WMD intel was false. Like I said, there's no way to know for sure. I just don't think that Bush would have taken the political risk of basing the invasion on intel that would clearly be proven false in a relatively short period of time.

58 Mattand  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:38:52pm

re: #56 Killgore Trout

Why did you oppose invading Iraq?

59 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:38:52pm

[Link: www.buzzfeed.com...]

"Shame on Barack Obama for diminishing the memory of September 11th and the killing of Osama bin Laden by turning it into a cheap political attack ad. This is the same President who once criticized Hillary Clinton for invoking bin Laden 'to score political points.'
"This is the same President who said, after bin Laden was dead, that we shouldn't 'spike the ball' after the touchdown. And now Barack Obama is not only trying to score political points by invoking Osama bin Laden, he is doing a shameless end-zone dance to help himself get reelected.

Fuck McCain.

60 Killgore Trout  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:40:20pm

re: #47 What, me worry?

Now I think that revolution has to come from within. Anyone who enters a country will always be seen as an occupier even if they have the best intentions. And of course, it's never that cut and dry.

The weapons inspectors had been in Iraq about 12 years prior to the U.S. invasion and they could never confirm what Hussein had, other than chemical warfare which he had already used on the Kurds, killing some 200,000 I believe. So the whole WMD was a ruse and I believe Bush knew that from the get go.

It is possible that the Arab Spring might have unseated him but I think it's pretty unlikely. He wasn't adverse to brutally crushing enemies within. I'm not so convinced my opposition to the war was the correct position. When you start to think of the hypothetical of what the region would be like today (continued enforcement of the no fly zone, economic sanctions, Iran's nuclear program, etc) there are lots of hypothetical scenarios. I'm not so convinced I was correct and Bush was wrong. I'll let the historians sort that out.

61 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:41:05pm
"He turned his back on the people of Iran when they rose up to end their tyrannical, terrorist-supporting, Holocaust-denying government, giving them no assistance as they were crushed in the streets.
"He has repeatedly thrown our ally Israel under the bus and jeopardized our shared security interests.
"He tried to bring Khaled Sheikh Muhammed, the mastermind of 9/11, and other Al-Qaeda terrorists into the middle of New York City to stand trial in a civilian court.
"He disregarded the advice of his military commanders and pulled all of our troops out of Iraq, and Al-Qaeda is making a comeback there as a result.

Fuck you 100 times, slimy deranged motherfucker.

62 dragonath  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:44:04pm

A few days ago I was reading a bunch of Atlantic magazines published on the eve of the war. I found an article by Robert Kaplan with the hypothesis that the US being in Iraq was going to be a counterweight to Iranian interests in the region.

Found this out today (via Wiki):

Kaplan, along with Newsweek's Fareed Zakaria, were among many prominent pundits advocating support for the Iraq War.[6] Kaplan participated in a secret meeting convened by then deputy secretary of defense Paul D. Wolfowitz, at which he helped drafted an internal government document advocating the invasion of Iraq.[7]

Well, I guess that prediction didn't quite pan out the way he expected.

63 Killgore Trout  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:45:51pm

re: #58 mattand

Why did you oppose invading Iraq?

It might be kind of hard to explain but I opposed it from the moral low ground. The easiest thing would have been to kick the can down the road, keep up pressure for inspections and economic sanctions to limit their military capabilities. I know this might mean that the Iraqi people would still be suffering under Saddam and/or his sons today. It could have gone on indefinitely.

64 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:46:24pm

re: #56 Killgore Trout

Ah, then that explains our difference of opinion.

Our difference of opinion is based on whether or not the memo reflected a larger problem?

Really?

I don't think so. Am I wrong that you defended the decision to invade? Are you on record voicing the opinion that the decision-making process was ill-advised and systematically lacking in thorough analysis? Are you on record as criticizing the influence of PNAC ideologues?

If so, then perhaps you're right, and different views on the memo is of any relative importance in explaining our different views on Iraq.

65 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:48:29pm

re: #60 Killgore Trout

It is possible that the Arab Spring might have unseated him but I think it's pretty unlikely. He wasn't adverse to brutally crushing enemies within. I'm not so convinced my opposition to the war was the correct position. When you start to think of the hypothetical of what the region would be like today (continued enforcement of the no fly zone, economic sanctions, Iran's nuclear program, etc) there are lots of hypothetical scenarios. I'm not so convinced I was correct and Bush was wrong. I'll let the historians sort that out.

Just curious - can you link to any comments more than a year or two old explaining your opposition to the war?

You've been a member for 7 years. I'm not asking for anything requiring extensive research - just if you think you can easily put your finger on something.

66 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:50:39pm

re: #63 Killgore Trout

It might be kind of hard to explain but I opposed it from the moral low ground. The easiest thing would have been to kick the can down the road, keep up pressure for inspections and economic sanctions to limit their military capabilities. I know this might mean that the Iraqi people would still be suffering under Saddam and/or his sons today. It could have gone on indefinitely.

So then your opposition to the war was fundamentally different than mine - which was based on the piss-poor analytical process used to justify the invasion.

What did that previous post mean, then?

67 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:51:00pm

re: #65 Talking Point Detective

Just curious - can you link to any comments more than a year or two old explaining your opposition to the war?

I'm pretty sure he can't, as most other people can't, since usually we don't keep track of our comments, so that wouldn't be a reasonable request.

/But I can. I have a thick file on KT.

///kiddin'

68 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:52:17pm

"In other news, it has been nearly a year since Osama Bin Laden was fucking SHOT DEAD, and the world is still glad to be rid of him."

69 Killgore Trout  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:55:21pm

re: #65 Talking Point Detective

Just curious - can you link to any comments more than a year or two old explaining your opposition to the war?

You've been a member for 7 years. I'm not asking for anything requiring extensive research - just if you think you can easily put your finger on something.

Wow, you'd have to go way back in the archives but yes, I voiced my opposition to the invasion here on LGF back when it was a right wing blog and while the war was still going on. But like I said, my opposition was different than most people's and I also wanted to win the war even though I opposed it. I don't recall my position ruffling too many feathers. If you want to search my old comments for "moral low ground" which I seem to recall using to describe my position. I certainly wouldn't defend all of my comments on the old LGF but I still stand by opinion of the Iraq war.

70 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:55:35pm

re: #10 blueraven

Oh please! If the operation had not been successful, if our guys would have taken on casualties, does anyone not think the president would be in serious trouble right now?

I doubt we would ever have known anything had happened if the raid had gone wrong.

71 Mattand  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:57:12pm

re: #63 Killgore Trout

It might be kind of hard to explain but I opposed it from the moral low ground. The easiest thing would have been to kick the can down the road, keep up pressure for inspections and economic sanctions to limit their military capabilities. I know this might mean that the Iraqi people would still be suffering under Saddam and/or his sons today. It could have gone on indefinitely.

I have to admit, I've never seen that rationale before. My big thing is I wasn't buying Colin Powell's Valentine's Day report before the UN. The whole thing stunk to high heaven, IMO.

As far as the Iraqi people: they were fucked one way or the other. You're right that'd they still be suffering under Hussien and kids, but it turns out the US is better at breaking countries than fixing them.

72 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:57:16pm

re: #67 I'm a Mavrik!

I'm pretty sure he can't, as most other people can't, since usually we don't keep track of our comments, so that wouldn't be a reasonable request.

/But I can. I have a thick file on KT.

///kiddin'

From what I have seen, it wouldn't be that hard to search comments posted on a particular thread if you have some recollection of the time frame for when the thread took place. He might remember such a thread.

But regardless, I get it could be tough, and no big deal if he can't. He's already shown that his comment about what differentiated our perspectives on the war reflected some sort of confusion on his part.

73 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:00:20pm

re: #69 Killgore Trout

But like I said, my opposition was different than most people's and I also wanted to win the war even though I opposed it.

Are you suggesting that most people who opposed the war didn't want to "win" the war once it was underway? If so, how do you define "win the war?"

74 Hawaii69  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:12:05pm

re: #16 Charles Johnson

Hurrr.

[Embedded content]

Why bother?

75 Kronocide  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:46:37pm

re: #74 Hawaii69

Why bother?

I ask the same question of you: why bother?

76 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:54:32pm

re: #74 Hawaii69

Why bother?

I find these "blogwars" amusing and making a point about the wingnut bloggers. Many others hold the same view. Many others probably disagree and don't give a damn about the tweet wars.

But you're the only one to complain.

77 Hawaii69  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 5:04:30pm

re: #75 Kronocide

I ask the same question of you: why bother?

I'm just offering a point of view. I think that's what peolpe do here.

When people are obviously doing something very immature, for the SOLE purpose of getting a reaction out of you, why give them the recognition they are seeking?

78 Hawaii69  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 5:08:27pm

re: #76 I'm a Mavrik!

But you're the only one to complain.

So? This used to be an echo chamber, where I would get shouted down by the kinds of people who have long since been banned.

Will I now be shoulted down by the new crowd?

79 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 5:12:17pm

re: #78 Hawaii69

So? This used to be an echo chamber, where I would get shouted down by the kinds of people who have long since been banned.

Will I now be shoulted down by the new crowd?

You expressed your point of view once. Nothing wrong with that in principle (except for the fact that your comment was rude). That you seem to insist on bringing it up every time you notice the twitter wars? That's just weird.

Here, have a martyr cookie.

80 wrenchwench  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 5:14:30pm

re: #78 Hawaii69

So? This used to be an echo chamber, where I would get shouted down by the kinds of people who have long since been banned.

Will I now be shoulted down by the new crowd?

1. I'm not shoulting.

2. This was never an echo chamber.

3. I don't think 'people are obviously doing something very immature, for the SOLE purpose of getting a reaction out of you'. They have a larger audience, which might, just maybe, benefit from hearing a different point of view.

Just my opinion. Not the absolute truth. Not trying to squelch yours just because I disagree.

81 Hawaii69  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 7:30:27pm

I'm sure if Charles has a response, be it either "I bother with it because..." or "It's my blog, mind your own business" he has no problem saying it himself.

I've read this blog long enough to know that he doesn't require people playing "D" for him.

82 Hawaii69  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 7:48:24pm

re: #80 wrenchwench

3. I don't think 'people are obviously doing something very immature, for the SOLE purpose of getting a reaction out of you'. They have a larger audience, which might, just maybe, benefit from hearing a different point of view.

I'm fairly ceratin that when Dan Riehl alludes to the idea the you have small/no testicles....it's meant to get a reaction. It's the posting of that tweet that made me say "why bother". I'm not sure what benefit his audience might get out of a testicle size rebuttal...

83 funky chicken  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 8:41:27pm

Whatever happened to "listening to the generals" as a right wing talking point? I guess admirals don't have interestng or important things to say.

84 funky chicken  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 8:54:26pm

re: #57 Talking Point Detective

We'll never know for sure. My guess is that they undermined any conflicting information in an inherently ambiguous situation because of ideological blinders and arrogance born out of a sense that ambiguity=weakness.

The reason why I feel that way is that I find it hard to believe that they would justify the invasion on WMD if they actually believed that they didn't exist. Of course, justifying the invasion on a nation-building rationale wouldn't have netted sufficient public support - so I can't rule out the argument that they knew the WMD intel was false. Like I said, there's no way to know for sure. I just don't think that Bush would have taken the political risk of basing the invasion on intel that would clearly be proven false in a relatively short period of time.

QFT, and I still wonder what Sadaam thought he had? Or was he crazy enough to think his bluff would work out for him? Obviously the Sauds were anxious to shift the focus Sadaam's way.


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