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3-Year Senate Investigation: ‘Enhanced Interrogation’ Was Ineffective

Not to mention torture
US News • Views: 21,288

Reuters reports today that a nearly three-year long investigation by the Senate Intelligence Committee has found little or no evidence that “enhanced interrogation” techniques yielded any valuable intelligence, or led to counter-terrorism breakthroughs.

People familiar with the inquiry said committee investigators, who have been poring over records from the administration of President George W. Bush, believe they do not substantiate claims by some Bush supporters that the harsh interrogations led to counter-terrorism coups.

The backers of such techniques, which include “water-boarding,” sleep deprivation and other practices critics call torture, maintain they have led to the disruption of major terror plots and the capture of al Qaeda leaders.

One official said investigators found “no evidence” such enhanced interrogations played “any significant role” in the years-long intelligence operations which led to the discovery and killing of Osama bin Laden last May by U.S. Navy SEALs.

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178 comments

1 mr.fusion  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:42:20pm

Well, I'm sure the neo-cons will now give up the argument that torture worked

///

2 erik_t  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:42:59pm

This is me not really caring. It could be the most effective thing in the fucking world and it would still be wrong.

3 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:43:09pm

Drones with missiles fare better at disrupting them. Boom!

4 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:43:58pm

I protest! Hindsight is 20/20! Nobody could have guessed that the techniques responsible for millions of confessions under Stalin were ineffective! /

5 Targetpractice  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:45:14pm

Wait, you mean Jack Bauer was wrong?!

///

6 Lidane  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:45:23pm

No one could have predicted that torture provides shitty and/or useless information.

///

7 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:45:33pm

Meanwhile John F'n McCain goes full metal wingnut:

"He turned his back on the people of Iran when they rose up to end their tyrannical, terrorist-supporting, Holocaust-denying government, giving them no assistance as they were crushed in the streets.
"He has repeatedly thrown our ally Israel under the bus and jeopardized our shared security interests.
"He tried to bring Khaled Sheikh Muhammed, the mastermind of 9/11, and other Al-Qaeda terrorists into the middle of New York City to stand trial in a civilian court.
"He disregarded the advice of his military commanders and pulled all of our troops out of Iraq, and Al-Qaeda is making a comeback there as a result.

Fuck that idjit.

8 mr.fusion  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:46:11pm

re: #2 erik_t

This is me not really caring. It could be the most effective thing in the fucking world and it would still be wrong.

Awesome....wish I would have thought to post the same thing

9 Someone Please Beam Me Up!  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:46:42pm

What erik_t said. But it's still nice to confirm what's been known for the last few centuries at least.

10 erik_t  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:47:47pm

re: #7 I'm a Mavrik!

Meanwhile John F'n McCain goes full metal wingnut:

Fuck that idjit.

It was probably some twitter intern. Nobody better represents the sane, sober and reasonable Elder Statesman than John McCain!

/

11 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:52:31pm

re: #2 erik_t

This is me not really caring. It could be the most effective thing in the fucking world and it would still be wrong.

The problem is not only that it isn't effective - it is actually counterproductive in a number of different ways.

12 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 2:53:37pm

re: #2 erik_t

This is me not really caring. It could be the most effective thing in the fucking world and it would still be wrong.

But you have to admit that compromising your morals for the sake of something that doesn't work is...extra stupid.

13 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:00:34pm

I can imagine certain hypothetical situations where torture can elicit useful information, such as when the aim is to acquire very specific information about events otherwise well-known (e.g. we know that there is someone tied up in some house and she will die within x hours, and we don't know the exact place... you get the drift). I can imagine that in some of these situations torture can be a lesser evil. Lesser. But evil.

So, at risk of downdings and for the sake of the argument I can admit that in very, very specific (and extremely rare and unlikely) scenarios torture can elicit probably useful information (and I would think none of these scenarios would correspond to the real life stuff these interrogators had to deal with) and could be deemed to be the way to proceed. What it should never be is legal. I.e. even if you use it as a lesser-evil method, you should still go to prison.

14 Someone Please Beam Me Up!  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:05:06pm

re: #13 I'm a Mavrik!

We have a "to prevent a greater wrong" argument that will cover that situation. And might even keep you out of prison.

15 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:05:51pm

re: #14 One of the Seventeen

We have a "to prevent a greater wrong" argument that will cover that situation. And might even keep you out of prison.

The problem with this is that the same can be used to get these torturers we're talking about off the hook.

16 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:06:03pm

re: #13 I'm a Mavrik!

I can imagine certain hypothetical situations where torture can elicit useful information, such as when the aim is to acquire very specific information about events otherwise well-known (e.g. we know that there is someone tied up in some house and she will die within x hours, and we don't know the exact place... you get the drift). I can imagine that in some of these situations torture can be a lesser evil. Lesser. But evil.

So, at risk of downdings and for the sake of the argument I can admit that in very, very specific (and extremely rare and unlikely) scenarios torture can elicit useful information (and I would think none of the scenarios would fit the real life stuff these interrogators had to deal with) and could be deemed to be the way to proceed. What it should never be is legal. I.e. even if you use it as a lesser-evil method, you still should go to prison.

I have no problem with that. If someone wants to assume the risk of breaking laws to torture to get information they think is valuable and that can't be attained in any other process, then they can assume that risk. There's not really much that we can do about that. But creating a legal structure, explicitly, to protect torture is just wrong.

And further, it should be acknowledged that while your scenario is theoretically possible, the probabilities are stacked against it. On average, torture is counterproductive to a sound interrogation process. By engaging in torture, in the end, you lessen the chances of acquiring the needed information. Many interrogation experts have argued that point over and over, and that is why the Bush administration brought in inexperienced personnel to conduct the interrogations, and that is why experienced interrogators refused to participate.

17 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:08:18pm

re: #16 Talking Point Detective

But creating a legal structure, explicitly, to protect torture is just wrong.

That's what I'm getting at.

And further, it should be acknowledged that while your scenario is theoretically possible, the probabilities are stacked against it.

Yep. The improbable ticking bomb scenario is much bandied about but it's not a good argument for institutionalization of torture.

18 erik_t  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:08:44pm

re: #13 I'm a Mavrik!

In the same sense as time traveling to shoot Baby Hitler, this seems like the sort of caveat that is so far on the fringe of real life situations that it can be assumed. The very ragged edge of an overarching rule can exhibit weirdness; that doesn't mean that the rule isn't regular enough to be called universal by all but drunken philosophy students.

19 Ming  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:08:55pm

re: #13 I'm a Mavrik!

The way I look at it, it's possible that you're correct, and maybe there are a few hypothetical situations where some kind of torture would provide helpful intelligence. I don't really know. What really bothers me is that under Bush and Cheney, the US government was not exactly judicious in its use of torture. We didn't limit it to some "ticking time bomb" type of scenario. We just did it to many, many people. Some 18-year-old, totally innocent, is delivered to our troops in Afghanistan, by someone who claims he's "with the Taliban", and the next thing you know, the 18-year-old is whisked off to Guantanamo and is having towels stuffed down his throat.

The torture techniques were taken from dictatorships who used them to elicit false confessions. I don't think there was ever any reason for anyone to think they would provide actual useful intelligence. As far as getting actual intelligence, we had professionals in that area, long before Bush and Cheney became interested in this area, and I believe the professionals were doing just fine at collecting intelligence, without widespread / universal torture.

20 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:11:14pm

re: #13 I'm a Mavrik!

I can imagine certain hypothetical situations where torture can elicit useful information, such as when the aim is to acquire very specific information about events otherwise well-known (e.g. we know that there is someone tied up in some house and she will die within x hours, and we don't know the exact place... you get the drift). I can imagine that in some of these situations torture can be a lesser evil. Lesser. But evil.

So, at risk of downdings and for the sake of the argument I can admit that in very, very specific (and extremely rare and unlikely) scenarios torture can elicit probably useful information (and I would think none of these scenarios would correspond to the real life stuff these interrogators had to deal with) and could be deemed to be the way to proceed. What it should never be is legal. I.e. even if you use it as a lesser-evil method, you should still go to prison.

The 'ticking time bomb, and we KNOW this guy knows where it is' argument is exceedingly popular with people who desperately want to make you admit that torture is maybe sometimes OK. When they know you're a woman, they usually manage to throw rape or a child who will be killed into the scenario.

However, you've managed to anticipate my normal counter-argument, which is that if you should, God forbid, find yourself managing such a situation (which is so extremely rare and bizarre that I can't, offhand, think of an actual example), of course you must do whatever you can to extract the information, and then, of course, accept the fact that you will now have to explain yourself to the jury, and have hopelessly fucked up the legal proceedings against the guy you tortured.

What I will not accept is the legal protection of torture.

21 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:12:26pm

re: #18 erik_t

(At the risk of veering into a very different topic, I don't think "changing past" (if it were coherent and possible) is really morally permissible, both in general, in the the particular Baby Hitler case. With Baby Hitler we have tens of millions of victims, but who is to say that killing him would not have caused billions of victims? Moreover, doesn't erasing (by changing history) the lives of billions who have lived since that period of time count as moral equivalent to murder?)

22 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:12:32pm

re: #17 I'm a Mavrik!

That's what I'm getting at.

And I agree that is the most important point. The worst aspect of what happened was the legal justification of the torture. In reality, I'm not particularly concerned about the pain inflicted upon a few individuals. I'm far more concerned about how torture was engaged in based on political expediency, and given legal cover for the exact same reason. expediency.

If I really felt it was engaged in on the basis of concern about the safety of civilians, I might view it differently.

23 erik_t  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:14:42pm

re: #21 I'm a Mavrik!

(At the risk of veering into a very different topic, I don't think "changing past" (if it were coherent and possible) is really morally permissible, both in general, in the the particular Baby Hitler case. With Baby Hitler we have tens of millions of victims, but who is to say that killing him would not have caused billions of victims? Moreover, doesn't erasing (by changing history) the lives of billions who have lived since that period of time count as moral equivalent to murder?)

The still-extant nature of Hitler's crimes is a powerful argument that, if time travel is possible, it is not so easily achieved that any future double-dumbass with a gun can achieve it by flying around a star really fast or, um, something.

24 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:15:05pm

re: #13 I'm a Mavrik!

And it's still popular enough among likely enemies that our people train very hard to resist torture interrogations. Our special forces guys all get the waterboard as part of training. SERE level C as I recall. It's not easy to square up the Reuters report and that fact.

I really hate to see "if torture works or not' conflated with the topic of America ever being right in sanctioning it. I'm feeling really sure about three things. (1) I must admit waterboarding would probably work on me the first time and (2) we must never ever do that again. (3) Renditions are outsourced torture.

If a US operator ever decides torture is the way to save the day, he can damn well plan on sacrificing his freedom for life for doing or ordering torture. Whether it works or not!

25 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:15:34pm

re: #21 I'm a Mavrik!

(At the risk of veering into a very different topic, I don't think "changing past" (if it were coherent and possible) is really morally permissible, both in general, in the the particular Baby Hitler case. With Baby Hitler we have tens of millions of victims, but who is to say that killing him would not have caused billions of victims? Moreover, doesn't erasing (by changing history) the lives of billions who have lived since that period of time count as moral equivalent to murder?)

My favorite take on it.

26 BongCrodny  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:15:58pm

re: #12 SanFranciscoZionist

But you have to admit that compromising your morals for the sake of something that doesn't work is...extra stupid.

I kinda suspect that the folks who support that sort of thing aren't really compromising anything.

27 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:17:05pm

re: #26 BongCrodny

I kinda suspect that the folks who support that sort of thing aren't really compromising anything.

Sigh. Probably, but if you're representing the United States in any capacity, you're compromising MY morals...so I have a dog in this fight.

28 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:17:56pm

re: #24 Daniel Ballard

(1) I must admit waterboarding would probably work on me the first time and

It is important to define "work" there. If you were being tortured to reveal information that you considered invaluable, you'd likely "talk," but not reveal the information your torturers were seeking.

29 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:18:54pm

re: #22 Talking Point Detective

Even if one thought that torture should be institutionalized within limits, they should not be so dumb as not to understand that under "right" conditions these limits may become very wide indeed, not to mention the inevitable "normal" abuse of this system. Then there's the whole issue of normalization of torture. Once you accept it should be legal in some limits, and you're at peace with this idea, there will be someone who would want to push the envelope.

30 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:19:06pm

More cluelessness from ultra-upper-class Mitt Romney

At a “lecture” for students at Otterbein University in Ohio today, Mitt Romney told students that, his friend, Jimmy John, started a business by borrowing $20,000 from his parents at a low interest rate. Romney suggested anyone in the audience could do the same:

This kind of devisiveness, this attack of success, is very different than what we’ve seen in our country’s history. We’ve always encouraged young people: Take a shot, go for it, take a risk, get the education, borrow money if you have to from your parents, start a business.

Wow, I sure don't know many friends who could wizard up 20 grand from their parents


good to be ultra rich! I'm sure that's pocket change in his head, lol

31 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:20:19pm

re: #24 Daniel Ballard

(1) I must admit waterboarding would probably work on me the first time and

We should define "work" though. It would certainly work to make you confess falsely, if it came to that.

32 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:21:41pm

re: #28 Talking Point Detective

GMTA! :P

33 erik_t  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:21:44pm

re: #30 windupbird is in the gravity well

More cluelessness from ultra-upper-class Mitt Romney

Wow, I sure don't know many friends who could wizard up 20 grand from their parents

good to be ultra rich! I'm sure that's pocket change in his head, lol

I know a fair number. Unlike Romney, I know that my experiences are not necessarily representative of a vast swath of this country.

34 Cheechako  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:25:30pm

I believe 60 Minutes is going to do a segment on this report next Sunday. Could be interesting viewing.

35 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:25:45pm

re: #29 I'm a Mavrik!

Even if one thought that torture should be institutionalized within limits, they should not be so dumb as not to understand that under "right" conditions these limits may become very wide indeed, not to mention the inevitable "normal" abuse of this system. Then there's the whole issue of normalization of torture. Once you accept it should be legal in some limits, and you're at peace with this idea, there will be someone who would want to push the envelope.

Yes. Those are the moral implications to the question - and they have to be dealt with before any actions taken to justify a previously illegal action as being legal.

From what I understand, however, the Bush administration never even engaged deeply with those questions (despite that they should be obvious) - even though they have explicitly been part of the military and intelligence community discussions on these issues for a long time.

The reality is that they panicked. It was part and parcel of their entire policy on Iraq - ill conceived and poorly implemented because they were blinded by hegemonic goals. They disregarded informed positions on torture just like they disregarded informed positions on the political environment in Iraq. And then they just cynically provided the legal cover they needed for torture just as they cynically tried to provide cover for the invasion by exploiting concerns about security.

36 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:26:18pm

re: #32 I'm a Mavrik!

GMTA! :P

?

37 BongCrodny  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:27:52pm

Ad from Sheriff Joe Pac on my screen:

The Mexican Drug Cartel has placed a $1 million bounty on my head and I receive death threats every day. Why? Because I am doing the job I was elected to do!

I find it hard to believe that a criminal organization capable of terrorizing a whole fucking country would really have that difficult a time knocking off an 80-year-old sheriff.

38 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:28:03pm

BTW, I sincerely believe any President real or prospective (looking at you Al Gore) would easily have made "over reaction" motivated mistakes in the weeks and months after 9/11. Maybe not torture.

Maybe we would have invaded Pakistan too, and fought a short battlefield nuclear war. That could have been the big mistake as bad or worse than invading Iraq for one example.

Maybe we would have decimated Afghanistan, looked at the history of occupiers there and just walked away to let them die & suffer under the warlords unaided by the rest of the world. Or who knows what might have been?

re: #31 I'm a Mavrik!
Yes that is true. But I just could not hold out with lies I don't think. They would get the truthful words from my mouth and then who knows what all else. Not a very masculine a thing to say but that's a poor substitute for sincerity anyway.

39 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:31:30pm

re: #38 Daniel Ballard

Yes that is true. But I just could not hold out with lies I don't think. They would get the truthful words from my mouth and then who knows what all else. Not a very masculine a thing to say but that's a poor substitute for sincerity anyway.

We know that people tell lies just to stop torture - especially if the torturer thinks that the guy "knows" and the guy doesn't "know". Heck, that's exactly what happened when war criminal Allen West "interrogated" that poor Iraqi guy - the latter simply made up some stuff because he objectively could not have answered war criminal West's questions truthfully.

40 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:32:32pm

re: #33 erik_t

I know a fair number. Unlike Romney, I know that my experiences are not necessarily representative of a vast swath of this country.

We run in different class strata, I suspect :)

My friends are more likely to have been disowned/forgotten by their parents! because gay, TG, not conservative...

41 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:33:12pm

re: #38 Daniel Ballard

BTW, I sincerely believe any President real or prospective (looking at you Al Gore) would easily have made "over reaction" motivated mistakes in the weeks and months after 9/11. Maybe not torture.

Maybe we would have invaded Pakistan too, and fought a short battlefield nuclear war. That could have been the big mistake as bad or worse than invading Iraq for one example.

Maybe we would have decimated Afghanistan, looked at the history of occupiers there and just walked away to let them die & suffer under the warlords unaided by the rest of the world. Or who knows what might have been?


Yes that is true. But I just could not hold out with lies I don't think. They would get the truthful words from my mouth and then who knows what all else. Not a very masculine a thing to say but that's a poor substitute for sincerity anyway.

Consider a situation where the information being sought might endanger the lives of your family. You'd do whatever you had to do to get the torture to stop, but you'd certainly explore any possible way to get it to stop, including providing incorrect information. Consider that you might have been trained in ways to provide information that wouldn't be useful. You have to consider context, but clearly the plurality of expert opinion is that the information you get is unreliable and that using torture is likely counterproductive to the process of gaining useful information.

Note that we have no proof that any of the information they obtained from these techniques was useful in any direct or immediate way.

42 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:33:54pm

re: #37 BongCrodny

Ad from Sheriff Joe Pac on my screen:

I find it hard to believe that a criminal organization capable of terrorizing a whole fucking country would really have that difficult a time knocking off an 80-year-old sheriff.

If I were being a cynic, I might wonder how useful the cartels find Sheriff Joe. The more distrustful legal and illegal Mexican and Mexican-American residents are of the law, the easier it is manipulate and terrorize people the cartels wish to employ or control

43 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:33:58pm

re: #30 windupbird is in the gravity well

More cluelessness from ultra-upper-class Mitt Romney

Wow, I sure don't know many friends who could wizard up 20 grand from their parents

good to be ultra rich! I'm sure that's pocket change in his head, lol

Also, $20K in 1983 is $43,198.93 in 2010 dollars. Old person frame of reference is old.

44 wrenchwench  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:34:54pm

re: #37 BongCrodny

Ad from Sheriff Joe Pac on my screen:

The Mexican Drug Cartel has placed a $1 million bounty on my head and I receive death threats every day. Why? Because I am doing the job I was elected to do!

I find it hard to believe that a criminal organization capable of terrorizing a whole fucking country would really have that difficult a time knocking off an 80-year-old sheriff.

Yeah, like there's just one 'Mexican Drug Cartel'. And like his job was to make them hate him and want to kill him. They probably don't know who he is.

45 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:35:41pm

re: #40 windupbird is in the gravity well

We run in different class strata, I suspect :)

My friends are more likely to have been disowned/forgotten by their parents! because gay, TG, not conservative...

My friends, the gay and trans ones included, largely have very supportive and loving families, who spent all their money forever getting their kids through college, and could no more cough up another twenty grand than they could fly.

I know a few people whose parents could give them that kind of money. Not real well, but I do know them. Mostly, they have not chosen to go into business.

46 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:35:47pm

re: #44 wrenchwench

I find it hard to believe that a criminal organization capable of terrorizing a whole fucking country would really have that difficult a time knocking off an 80-year-old sheriff.

Yeah, like there's just one 'Mexican Drug Cartel'. And like his job was to make them hate him and want to kill him. They probably don't know who he is.

he's kinda like a televangelist with a badge, heh

47 BongCrodny  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:36:26pm

re: #42 SanFranciscoZionist

If I were being a cynic, I might wonder how useful the cartels find Sheriff Joe. The more distrustful legal and illegal Mexican and Mexican-American residents are of the law, the easier it is manipulate and terrorize people the cartels wish to employ or control

Yeah, I'm also getting a "Sheriff Joe = Colonel Klink" vibe here. :-)

48 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:36:33pm

re: #44 wrenchwench

I find it hard to believe that a criminal organization capable of terrorizing a whole fucking country would really have that difficult a time knocking off an 80-year-old sheriff.

Yeah, like there's just one 'Mexican Drug Cartel'. And like his job was to make them hate him and want to kill him. They probably don't know who he is.

Of course they know who he is. He's the pink underwear guy. Drug cartels also read the newspapers.

//

49 gwangung  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:36:43pm

re: #43 goddamnedfrank

Also, $20K in 1983 is $43,198.93 in 2010 dollars. Old person frame of reference is old.

Also, $20K doesn't cover a full year's tuition at many, many schools.

50 Talking Point Detective  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:36:50pm

re: #36 Talking Point Detective

?

OK - I googled it. Obviously, you were correct.

51 wrenchwench  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:37:03pm

re: #46 windupbird is in the gravity well

he's kinda like a televangelist with a badge, heh

And without the hair-and-makeup team.

52 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:38:03pm

re: #51 wrenchwench

And without the hair-and-makeup team.

ahaha yes

53 wrenchwench  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:39:37pm

re: #43 goddamnedfrank

Also, $20K in 1983 is $43,198.93 in 2010 dollars. Old person frame of reference is old.

I might have been able to borrow $20,000 from my parents in 1983, if they hadn't had six other kids, and then divorced and married other people and acquired a bunch of step-kids on top of that.

54 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:40:16pm

re: #39 I'm a Mavrik!

re: #41 Talking Point Detective

I guess I feel a certain dissonance between what I think I could manage to resist and the reports conclusion. It feels like it would work. We know other nations use it for interrogations regardless of the conclusions that it does not work. Obviously they think it works.

Maybe it's the training operators & spies get that makes the difference. Maybe that family motivation would make the difference and I could hold out.

But again, that is not to be taken as support for torture at all ever. The US must always be above all that. Win right or you lost anyway.

55 Gus  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:40:28pm

"Anyone can easily borrow 20 grand from a family member." Hahaha! Thanks. I needed a good laugh.

56 Killgore Trout  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:41:38pm

re: #38 Daniel Ballard

BTW, I sincerely believe any President real or prospective (looking at you Al Gore) would easily have made "over reaction" motivated mistakes in the weeks and months after 9/11. Maybe not torture.

Maybe we would have invaded Pakistan too, and fought a short battlefield nuclear war. That could have been the big mistake as bad or worse than invading Iraq for one example.

Maybe we would have decimated Afghanistan, looked at the history of occupiers there and just walked away to let them die & suffer under the warlords unaided by the rest of the world. Or who knows what might have been?

I more or less agree with that. At the risk of dragging the Iraq war debate onto the new thread: Al Gore slammed Bush during the campaign for being too timid on Iraq. Obama also kept indefinite detention and the patriot act. As much as we all run around pretending our side is different from the other, the differences are actually fairly minor.

57 Gus  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:42:27pm

re: #43 goddamnedfrank

Also, $20K in 1983 is $43,198.93 in 2010 dollars. Old person frame of reference is old.

Grandpa Romney. He's actually old ahead of his time. The other day I realized that Reince Priebus is much younger than me yet all this time he always seemed like some old fart. That's what these conservatives are like though. Old men in young mens bodies. Old in mind and old in ideas.

58 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:45:07pm

re: #54 Daniel Ballard

Obviously they think it works.

USSR in 1930s-1950s thought it worked. But we know it didn't then. So what other countries may think is not probative.

59 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:46:09pm

this made me laugh [Link: imgur.com...]

60 Gus  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:46:19pm

This Senate report on enhanced interrogation torture will certainly put a damper on the fighting spirit of the 101st Chairborne and the United States Chair Force. Let us harken back to the days of Freedom Fries and Lee Greenwood and pray for the return of John Yoo.

//

61 palomino  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:49:22pm

re: #57 Gus

Grandpa Romney. He's actually old ahead of his time. The other day I realized that Reince Priebus is much younger than me yet all this time he always seemed like some old fart. That's what these conservatives are like though. Old men in young mens bodies. Old in mind and old in ideas.

Very true. Not surprising in a way, since American conservatism is (at least allegedly) about preserving the best of our traditions. So the guys you talk about naturally idolize old and old-fashioned traditionalists.

Even Republican women realize the men who control their party are waging a war on women. How else to explain the fact that ALL FIVE Republican women in the Senate voted for the VAWA renewal, while most of their male GOP colleagues voted nay. And those five GOP women aren't all moderates--there aren't 5 moderates left in the GOP.

62 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:49:27pm

It is always instructive to read and re-read Stalin's secret justification of torture. Both for the language used (eerily reminiscent of today's wingnut use - "physical pressure" - "enhanced interrogation") and for the reasons given.

[Link: www.marxists.org...]

To the Secretaries of oblast and regional party committees,
To the CCs of national Communist parties,
To the people's commissars of internal affairs,
and to the heads of NKVD directorates

It has become known to the VKP CC that the secretaries of oblast and regional party committees, in checking up on employees of NKVD directorates, have laid blame on them for the use of physical pressure against those who have been arrested, treating it as something criminal. The VKP CC affirms that the use of physical pressure in the work of the NKVD has been permitted since 1937 in accordance with a resolution of the VKP CC. This directive indicated that physical pressure was to be used in exceptional cases and only against blatant enemies of the people who, when interrogated by humane methods, defiantly refuse to turn over the names of co-conspirators, and who refuse for months on end to provide any evidence, and who try to thwart the unmasking of co-conspirators who are still at large, and who thereby continue even from prison to wage a struggle against the Soviet regime. Experience has shown that such an arrangement has produced good results and has greatly expedited the unmasking of enemies of the people. True, subsequently in practice the method of physical pressure was abused by Zakovsky, Litvin, Uspensky, and other scoundrels, converting it from an exception into a rule and beginning to apply it against honest people who had been arrested accidentally. For these abuses, they [the scoundrels] have been given due punishment. But this in no way detracts from the value of the method itself when it is properly used. It is known that all bourgeois secret services use physical pressure against representatives of the socialist proletariat and rely on especially savage methods of it. We might therefore ask why a socialist secret service should be any more more humane in relation to inveterate agent of the bourgeoisie and sworn enemies of the working class and collectivized farmers. The VKP CC believes that the use of physical pressure must absolutely be continued from here on in exceptional cases and against blatant and invidious enemies of the people, and that this is a perfectly appropriate and desirable method. The VKP CC demands that the secretaries of oblast and regional party committees and the CCs of national party committees bear in mind this explanation when they check up on the employees of NKVD directorates.

Secretary of the VKP CC
J. Stalin
10.1.1939

63 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:57:55pm

re: #45 SanFranciscoZionist

My friends, the gay and trans ones included, largely have very supportive and loving families, who spent all their money forever getting their kids through college, and could no more cough up another twenty grand than they could fly.

I know a few people whose parents could give them that kind of money. Not real well, but I do know them. Mostly, they have not chosen to go into business.

not to say all my social circle are like the lost boys from peter pan.... eh but there's definitely a trend

64 wrenchwench  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:58:23pm

re: #62 I'm a Mavrik!

It is always instructive to read and re-read Stalin's secret justification of torture. Both for the language used (eerily reminiscent of today's wingnut use - "physical pressure" - "enhanced interrogation") and for the reasons given.

[Link: www.marxists.org...]

My favorite part:

True, subsequently in practice the method of physical pressure was abused by Zakovsky, Litvin, Uspensky, and other scoundrels, converting it from an exception into a rule and beginning to apply it against honest people who had been arrested accidentally. For these abuses, they [the scoundrels] have been given due punishment. But this in no way detracts from the value of the method itself when it is properly used.

65 Mattand  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:59:57pm

re: #56 Killgore Trout

I more or less agree with that. At the risk of dragging the Iraq war debate onto the new thread: Al Gore slammed Bush during the campaign for being too timid on Iraq. Obama also kept indefinite detention and the patriot act. As much as we all run around pretending our side is different from the other, the differences are actually fairly minor.

One of my constant refrains when Bush was expanding Executive power was that whoever gets in after him is not going to give it up, willingly or easily. The Bush administration set up some really shitty precedents in this area.

That said, I'm trying to think of an Obama example. The closest I can come to is maybe the whole "assassinate citizens who are terror suspects" that Holder tried to justify last month. May not be the best example.

66 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:00:01pm

re: #63 windupbird is in the gravity well

not to say all my social circle are like the lost boys from peter pan... eh but there's definitely a trend

Folks who lose their families need new ones.

:(

That said, I'm going to guess that most American parents can't provide 20,000 smackeroons for an offspring's startups, regardless of their feelings about said child, OR the business plan.

67 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:01:15pm

re: #64 wrenchwench

"No problem! Just use it properly from now on! As simple as that! Silly puppies."/

68 The Ghost of a Flea  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:04:01pm
69 Gus  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:04:20pm

The NDAA Obama signed also included a signing statement. The wingnut Senate in the State of Virginia turned around and passed a “NDAA Nullification Act" of their own which I find rather hilarious since indefinite detention is a child of the Bush White House -- ergo right wing. Many of the terrorist trials will be taking place in the civilian courts. The closing of GITMO has been next to impossible due to non-cooperation from congress. There is certainly more transparency or honesty. Whatever similarities there may be is largely a consequence of the legislative branch. However, it's faulty to claim that Obama's policies are equal to Bush.

70 wrenchwench  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:04:35pm

re: #67 I'm a Mavrik!

"No problem! Just use it properly from now on! As simple as that! Silly puppies."/

Just like the death penalty! Killing an innocent person once in a while does not detract from the idea as a whole!

71 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:06:46pm

re: #70 wrenchwench

(BTW, what happened in 1937-38 and after (which is echoed in this letter) is absolutely Pythonesque ("those responsible for sacking have been sacked"). But I digress.)

72 The Ghost of a Flea  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:08:21pm

re: #70 wrenchwench

Just like the death penalty! Killing an innocent person once in a while does not detract from the idea as a whole!

Torture can work, if you overlook the time's it's used on the wrong people, the time you get false positives, and that it can't get you information on a tight schedule. Indeed, torture can be quite effective if you simply don't give a shit about most of your population and are willing to put them through a knothole backwards.

73 wrenchwench  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:12:52pm

re: #71 I'm a Mavrik!

(BTW, what happened in 1937-38 and after (which is echoed in this letter) is absolutely Pythonesque ("those responsible for sacking have been sacked"). But I digress.)

Thank goodness for Monty Python giving us a framework within which we can understand these things.

/?

74 Gus  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:13:08pm

Hawaii69's still on a mission.

76 wrenchwench  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:15:59pm

re: #74 Gus

Hawaii69's still on a mission.

Don't criticize those who criticize you! It only encourages them! Don't even look at them! They want the attention!

Just a thought.

And the absolute truth.

I now solicit your downdings of nobility.

77 Gus  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:16:48pm

re: #76 wrenchwench

Don't criticize those who criticize you! It only encourages them! Don't even look at them! They want the attention!

Just a thought.

And the absolute truth.

I now solicit your downdings of nobility.

The bolded is my favorite.

78 Gus  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:17:20pm

I shall eat these martyr cookies with pride!

79 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:17:26pm

re: #73 wrenchwench

Well, it was tragicomic, in a way. Yagoda fights the enemies of the people. Yezhov arrives and exposes Yagoda as an enemy of the people. Beria arrives and exposes Yezhov as an enemy of the people. Khrushchev arrives and exposes Beria as an enemy of the people. Brezhnev arrives and sends Khrushchev to tend to his dacha.

80 Gus  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:19:01pm

Mitt Romney saying "borrow money from your parents" = we can get rid of student loans and the SBA.

More or less.

81 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:19:33pm

Shit, my Mom's asking me for 20k! (or a cruise ticket)

The 1st no can do, the 2nd, I'm looking for a cheapy. Us less fortunate Americans do what we can Mitt.

82 Targetpractice  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:20:54pm

re: #75 Gus

Mittastrophe: Romney Tells Students to Borrow Money from Their Parents

"And if they can't afford to loan you that 20K, I have several hundred acres of lawn that needs mowing, hint, hint."

83 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:22:03pm

re: #80 Gus

Mitt Romney saying "borrow money from your parents" = we can get rid of student loans and the SBA.

More or less.

yep

84 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:23:31pm

OT:
Ah, I love getting political surveys from people that know what they're doing. Just got off the phone with a student from Marquette University doing a fairly high level survey of attitudes leading up to the general & recall elections here. No leading questions, professional delivery, etc. Much more pleasant to deal with than the cruft pushed by either party. I'll have to keep an eye for when the results come out in the next week or so because, if their sampling is as good as their survey writing, it should have a fairly accurate picture of our fractured state.

85 Gus  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:24:46pm

re: #82 Targetpractice

"And if they can't afford to loan you that 20K, I have several hundred acres of lawn that needs mowing, hint, hint."

Comming up next... I'll be checking in to the Mother Teresa Health Clinic in Calcutta to get this hernia looked at.

86 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:25:32pm

re: #85 Gus

Comming up next... I'll be checking in to the Mother Teresa Health Clinic in Calcutta to get this hernia looked at.

Prepare to convert.../

87 God of Binders with Women  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:26:31pm

Also OT, I see Crowley has non-apology apologized to Sandra Fluke. Ya know, the ol' "anyone I offended" 'apology.':

Monica Crowley
@MonicaCrowley
Following

Regret my tweeted question caused a stir. I certainly & unequivocally apologize to Sandra & anyone else I offended. Not my intention.

Your apology is not accepted, thank you.

88 Gus  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:27:15pm

re: #86 I'm a Mavrik!

Prepare to convert.../

Heck. If you die what's the big deal? We've got great lodging in Hotel Heaven and it's free for googol years.

89 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:27:21pm

re: #87 Everything in Its Right Place

Also OT, I see Crowley has non-apology apologized to Sandra Fluke. Ya know, the ol' "anyone I offended" 'apology.':

Your apology is not accepted, thank you.

Boilerplate stuff, necessary for the history books.

/gah

90 wrenchwench  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:28:57pm

re: #82 Targetpractice

"And if they can't afford to loan you that 20K, I have several hundred acres of lawn that needs mowing, hint, hint."

"And a car elevator that needs greasing."

91 Gus  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:29:42pm

Faith based financial aid.

"I'm pretty sure my folks will let me borrow $35,000 a year for med school."

92 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:30:25pm

re: #91 Gus

Faith based financial aid.

"I'm pretty sure my folks will let me borrow $35,000 a year for med school."

$35K must be for med school --off shore.

93 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:30:25pm

re: #91 Gus

Shorter Romney: "If you don't have money, just take it from your bank account. Duuuh."

94 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:32:02pm

OT

Happened to tune in the Rush Limbaugh show today. It would be bad for my blood pressure if I did not find Rush and his ditto-head acolytes so amusing.

Today's show was a treat, even more of a carnival of stupid than usual.

The subject was the transfer of the Shuttle prototype Enterprise to the Intrepid museum in New York harbor. Normally, this is a newsworthy and interesting story but the Ditto-head-in-chief had to spin it into an anti-liberal screed. He pointed out that "no battery in the world could power" the 747 that carried the Shuttle to NYC, no, not even to taxi it across the field, let alone across the country.

And yet, according to Rush, this is how "liberals" want to power everything in their zeal to promote electric cars. He then went off on a rant against the electric propulsion initiative or some such program, as though being unable to power a 747 somehow rules out any lesser application of electric propulsion. At the risk of belaboring the obvious, I would point that a 747 is not a car or a golf cart. Noone proposes powering transcontinental airliners with electric motors and batteries. The impossibility of that does not mean, in and of itself, that it is impossible for cars. Rush likes to brag about his Maybach and its monstrously powerful engine. Well, Rush, that engine could not propel a 747 either, though it probably could tow it across the field, as could an electric tractor. The Maybach motor is a complicated toy compared to big plane engines.

With the electric car crazed libs out of the way, Rush proceeded to disparage long-dead American hero Gus Grissom. He pointed out that the Intrepid had been Grissom's recovery ship on his 1961 Mercury mission. He then repeated the long discredited allegation that Grissom had panicked, blown the hatch on his spacecraft, and caused it to sink. In fact, Grissom has been comprehensively cleared of any error in the incident and went on to fly two more important space missions before his death in the Apollo One fire. Rush did backtrack on this later in the show after someone e-mailed him.

He was not finished though. He added jovially that maybe James Cameron could find and recover the sunken capsule when Cameron finishes with the Titanic. In fact, Grissom's capsule, Libery Bell 7, was found and recovered from 14,000 feet of water in 1999 (amid great publicity). It has since been cleaned and sent on a national tour, and is now on display at the the Kansas Cosmosphere and Space Center.

95 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:32:24pm

re: #93 I'm a Mavrik!

Shorter Romney: "If you don't have money, just take it from your bank account. Duuuh."

hmmm, I think it was the show Cheers --Woody Harrelson's character fell in love with a really stupid blonde rich girl. He said he didn't have money to do something and she said, "Oh, that's ok, we have time to stop by the ATM and still get there before the show starts."

96 God of Binders with Women  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:34:47pm

re: #94 Shiplord Kirel

Blah, blah, blah! You librulz never get 'satire' when you hear it!

97 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:36:47pm

Hubby just told Brat Puppy to leave the cat alone. "He is just going to make your life miserable if you don't."

Brat Puppy still has a way to go. . . .

98 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:37:51pm

re: #96 Everything in Its Right Place

Indeed, Rush is only pretending to be abysmally ignorant of technology and history so he can mock liberal luddites. Oh, that and their tendency to run off at the mouth without the most basic research into the subject they try to discuss.

99 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:38:17pm

re: #97 ggt

Hubby just told Brat Puppy to leave the cat alone. "He is just going to make your life miserable if you don't."

Brat Puppy still has a way to go. . . .

Wise man! Learned from his own experience, I presume? //

100 wrenchwench  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:38:24pm

re: #87 Everything in Its Right Place

Also OT, I see Crowley has non-apology apologized to Sandra Fluke. Ya know, the ol' "anyone I offended" 'apology.':

Your apology is not accepted, thank you.

I wonder what her intention was.

101 God of Binders with Women  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:38:28pm

re: #94 Shiplord Kirel

Rush likes to brag about his Maybach and its monstrously powerful engine.

I just went to Maybach's website, and those cars (like Royce's and Bentley's) say two things about the driver: I'm a pompous, middle-aged asshole and I have a small dick.

102 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:38:52pm

re: #82 Targetpractice

Oh yeah, like Mom and Dad are just being tightwads and not paying for their education . . . .

Most of the kids I know, live at home, work, and go to school. Because their parents can't afford any more.

Luckily, in Chicago there are plenty of educational opportunities in driving/train ride distance.

BFE Idaho? --not so much.

103 Gus  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:39:14pm

re: #94 Shiplord Kirel

Really. So from Shuttle, to the 747, to the Intrepid to Gus Grissom? Dude's got to be high on something.

104 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:39:23pm

re: #99 I'm a Mavrik!

Wise man! Learned from his own experience, I presume? //

Never had a cat until we got married.

105 God of Binders with Women  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:40:10pm

re: #103 Gus

Really. So from Shuttle, to the 747, to the Intrepid to Gus Grissom? Dude's got to be high on something.

Last time I checked, it cost Fat Boy his hearing and a hell of a lot of scratch to keep his ass out of jail.

106 MittDoesNotCompute  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:41:28pm

re: #103 Gus

Really. So from Shuttle, to the 747, to the Intrepid to Gus Grissom? Dude's got to be high on something.

High on stupidity and hackery.

107 engineer cat  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:41:35pm

Honest Mitt:

"I admit it, I've never had to worry about where my next meal was coming from or whether or not I'd be able to pay the bills. Being the son of a prominent politician and business leader opened doors for me in a way that few people ever experience.

The company that I founded can make a profit on a company that it buys regardless of whether or not it needs to kill the company and fire everybody or save the company and grow it to do it. If I applied this model to the entire United States I might very well by the same logic find it necessary to keep millions of people out of work if it resulted in a higher net GNP.

So, I have to admit that I don't have any idea what an ordinary american experiences in their life, and that my "business experience" involves trying to make money whether or not I have to fire thousands of people to do that, which really isn't a good model for governing a nation.

But you should vote for me anyway because..."

108 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:42:18pm

re: #94 Shiplord Kirel

Well via Rush (and you, tyvm) I learned something today. Half full and all that.

109 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:42:38pm

Mitt and Ann would have done much better to respond to people asking about their wealth to say:

"You ask like it's a bad thing?"

110 Gus  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:42:46pm

Not only that but the USS Intrepid was commissioned under the socialist Democrat president Franklin D. Roosevelt so it is therefore a liberal aircraft carrier they're putting this left-wing NASA vehicle on display in liberal New York City which is under the kingdom of the nanny state mayor Bloomberg!!!!

111 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:43:24pm

re: #110 Gus

IIRC, without Socialist Liberal President FDR, we might be speaking German?

112 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:45:43pm

re: #86 I'm a Mavrik!

Prepare to convert.../

To Hinduism? Can one do that?

113 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:46:55pm

re: #112 SanFranciscoZionist

To Hinduism? Can one do that?

You just have to take a few lessons in Sanskrit --not that hard.

Oh, and subscribe to the yama and niyama --oh wait, that is hata yoga --not that much different.

Hard to live, but if you are already Jewish . . . .

114 Gus  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:47:03pm

Red meat for his stupid listeners.

115 Cheechako  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:48:01pm

re: #112 SanFranciscoZionist

To Hinduism? Can one do that?

Heck yah....you can label yourself anyway you want.

116 Targetpractice  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:48:26pm

re: #94 Shiplord Kirel

So where was the point in all that, aside from the one atop his head?

117 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:50:12pm

re: #91 Gus

Faith based financial aid.

"I'm pretty sure my folks will let me borrow $35,000 a year for med school."

A man meets his daughter's fiance. To his distress, the young man does not have a job...instead, he's a Torah scholar.

"So, how are you planning to provide for my daughter?" says the father.

"God will provide," the boy tells him.

"And how are you planning to support your children? They're expensive," the father warns.

"God will provide."

"And what about retirement savings, health insurance, buying a home, maybe a vacation now and then...?"

"God will provide," says the fiance serenely.

"So, how did it go with our son-in-law-to-be?" the man's wife asks.

"Well, good and bad. On the one hand, he's a nudnik who doesn't have a job and doesn't plan to get one. On the other, I made a good impression. He already thinks that I'm God."

118 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:51:28pm

re: #93 I'm a Mavrik!

Shorter Romney: "If you don't have money, just take it from your bank account. Duuuh."

A beggar approaches a rich man in the street. "I haven't had anything to eat in three days," he says.

"That's terrible for your health!" the rich man tells him. "Three days! You must simply FORCE yourself to eat something."

119 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:52:43pm

re: #116 Targetpractice

So where was the point in all that, aside from the one atop his head?

He owns a car that people have to google. Take that ignorant suckers.

120 God of Binders with Women  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:53:34pm

re: #116 Targetpractice

So where was the point in all that, aside from the one atop his head?

I will give the King of Multiple Marriages this: regardless of how you feel about his politics, the dude is a master of communicating. Now, what he communicates is (obviously) a matter of debate, but all the other delta bravos (a Jim Rome way of saying 'douchebag') that repeat his shit should be sending Don Limbaugh a piece of their action every two weeks.

121 Varek Raith  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:55:09pm

Fuck you, Rush.

To the rest of you all, good evening.

122 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:55:48pm

re: #121 Varek Raith

Fuck you, Rush.

To the rest of you all, good evening.

Why would you want to?

123 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:55:57pm

re: #119 Stanley Sea's rule of law

He owns a car that people have to google. Take that ignorant suckers.

I own a car that I can park on the street without worrying about it.

124 wrenchwench  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:56:18pm

Nugent says he's insulted by concert cancellation

[...]

"To think that there's a bureaucrat in the United States Army that would consider the use or abuse of First Amendment rights in determining who is going to perform at an Army base is an insult and defiles the sacrifices of those heroes who fought for the U.S. Constitution, Bill of Rights," Nugent said.

Nugent said he had received messages of support from troops and noted that the Secret Service had met with him and closed its case about the remarks.

"There is nothing in my spoken word or written word that could be even wildly considered by any stretch of the imagination to be a threat to anyone," Nugent said.

Asked to clarify the remarks at the NRA convention, Nugent said: "A whole bunch of us ... believe ... we are in danger of being improperly and criminally jailed _ I mean criminally on the part of the government."

[...]

"We the people are turning up the heat," he said. "And that's why I'm being singled out by certain fish and game agencies and certain U.S. attorneys."

125 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:56:18pm

re: #123 Mostly sane, most of the time.

I own a car that I can park on the street without worrying about it.

And that is Priceless!

126 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:57:48pm

re: #123 Mostly sane, most of the time.

I own a car that I can park on the street without worrying about it.

I always told my husband, when we had the little white car, that I wasn't worried about thieves. If anyone took our car, they obviously needed it more than we did.

127 Gus  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:59:55pm

re: #124 wrenchwench

Nugent says he's insulted by concert cancellation

Ted Nugent, meet Alex Jones.

128 Targetpractice  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:59:55pm

re: #124 wrenchwench

Nugent says he's insulted by concert cancellation

"To think that there's a bureaucrat in the United States Army that would consider the use or abuse of First Amendment rights in determining who is going to perform at an Army base is an insult and defiles the sacrifices of those heroes who fought for the U.S. Constitution, Bill of Rights," Nugent said.

Hey dipshit, where were you when the Dixie Chicks were getting run through the wringer?

129 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:59:55pm

re: #124 wrenchwench

No, Ted, the ALASKA fish & game people busted you because you're a stupid poacher.

130 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:59:55pm

re: #124 wrenchwench

2Nugent: Fuck you, Wango Tango.

131 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 4:59:55pm

re: #124 wrenchwench

Nugent says he's insulted by concert cancellation

Yah know, I understand where Ted is coming from about Free Speech and all. He has always been a square peg. Problem is that square pegs become really irritating the more notoriety they get. There is a point in which your audience get's so large they aren't going to take your words and personality the way your smaller more intimate audience would. They really don't understand the intent and you can get in trouble.

Good Ole' Boys -- don't seem to have handle on the art of Rhetoric.

Take a hint, Ted. STFU and quit while you are behind

132 Cheechako  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 5:02:25pm

re: #119 Stanley Sea's rule of law

He owns a car that people have to google. Take that ignorant suckers.

Think about all those ditto-head subscribers who paid for that car. SUCKERS!!

I wonder how long it takes before someone keys it.

133 Kronocide  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 5:05:13pm

Jack Bauer is not happy

Jack Bauer

134 Gus  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 5:05:21pm

re: #130 I'm a Mavrik!

2Nugent: Fuck you, Wango Tango.

Wango Tango Foxtrot

135 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 5:05:37pm

I didn't get my morning nap and the dogs think that needs to be remedied.

Cat Overlord is not objecting.

Have a great evening all!

136 Gus  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 5:06:25pm

Keep in mind though that much like O'Reilly and Limbaugh, Ted Nugent is also another patriot and war hero.

//

137 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 5:06:37pm

re: #126 SanFranciscoZionist

I always told my husband, when we had the little white car, that I wasn't worried about thieves. If anyone took our car, they obviously needed it more than we did.

My mother had a station wagon, seven kids, and a dislike of cleaning out her own car.

She never bothered to lock the doors. Not even in downtown Portland.

138 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 5:08:04pm

re: #13 I'm a Mavrik!

I can imagine certain hypothetical situations where torture can elicit useful information, such as when the aim is to acquire very specific information about events otherwise well-known (e.g. we know that there is someone tied up in some house and she will die within x hours, and we don't know the exact place... you get the drift). I can imagine that in some of these situations torture can be a lesser evil. Lesser. But evil.

So, at risk of downdings and for the sake of the argument I can admit that in very, very specific (and extremely rare and unlikely) scenarios torture can elicit probably useful information (and I would think none of these scenarios would correspond to the real life stuff these interrogators had to deal with) and could be deemed to be the way to proceed. What it should never be is legal. I.e. even if you use it as a lesser-evil method, you should still go to prison.

Yeah, legality. A lot of people don't get what this is about.

Consider a scenario in which a terrorist wants to let a nuke go off in a densely populated city. He's been captured, but there is an automated countdown and only he has the keys to neccessary to defuse the bomb.

He is willing to give you the keys. All he asks to happen before that is that you slaughter a newborn in front of his eyes.

Someone ask torture-lover O'Reilly what he would do.

The illusion of being in control.

139 Kronocide  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 5:08:05pm
Nugent said he had received messages of support from troops and noted that the Secret Service had met with him and closed its case about the remarks.

Breivik and Manson receive letters of support from their fans. So that's not saying much.

"There is nothing in my spoken word or written word that could be even wildly considered by any stretch of the imagination to be a threat to anyone," Nugent said.

Says the man who has made an art of speaking wildly and stretching the imagination.

140 CuriousLurker  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 5:08:23pm

re: #124 wrenchwench

Nugent says he's insulted by concert cancellation

Cry me an effing river. He sure does have an inflated sense of his own importance. Yeah, the bureaucrats at fish & game agencies and "certain U.S. attorneys" are hunting down & persecuting all the True Patriots™.

Good grief. These guys are certifiable. *headdesk*

141 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 5:10:03pm

re: #124 wrenchwench

Nugent says he's insulted by concert cancellation

Good, you whiney ape.

142 wrenchwench  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 5:10:18pm

One of Mitt Romney's horses has a Twitter account.

143 wrenchwench  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 5:10:56pm

re: #141 Unlike Some People

Good, you whiney ape.

Hey!1 oh, you meant Nugent.

Carry on.

144 CuriousLurker  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 5:12:57pm

re: #137 Mostly sane, most of the time.

Don't know if you saw this from earlier, but I thought of you & your kids after I posted it, so I wanted to bring it to your attention.

145 Gus  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 5:13:13pm

re: #140 CuriousLurker

Cry me an effing river. He sure does have an inflated sense of his own importance. Yeah, the bureaucrats at fish & game agencies and "certain U.S. attorneys" are hunting down & persecuting all the True Patriots™.

Good grief. These guys are certifiable. *headdesk*

What these brain dead NRA gun nuts fail to understand is that it was environmentalism, wildlife management, etc., that's helped to sustain the herds if you will for hunters. If it wasn't for them they likely would have any bear to hunt. Clueless disgruntled yahoos.

See I Hunt, but the N.R.A. Isn’t for Me.

146 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 5:14:09pm

USA. 2013. Obama is the president.

Excerpt from a black helicopter recording:

- Wango Tango down, I repeat, Wango Tango down. We're returning to the base.

147 MittDoesNotCompute  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 5:14:16pm

re: #124 wrenchwench

Nugent says he's insulted by concert cancellation

Fuck you, Ted; you best be careful, lest President Obama sends SEAL Team Six after you to smoke your ass.

///

148 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 5:14:33pm

re: #147 ArthurSlugworth

They have better things to do.

149 CuriousLurker  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 5:14:47pm

re: #145 Gus

Looks like a good read. I'll bookmark it for later. Thanks!

150 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 5:15:11pm

re: #144 CuriousLurker

Don't know if you saw this from earlier, but I thought of you & your kids after I posted it, so I wanted to bring it to your attention.

Wow. Thanks. This is like the NASA streaming. I'm going to bookmark that link.

151 Varek Raith  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 5:15:22pm

Ted Nugent pleads guilty in illegal AK bear kill
Then why did you plead guilty, dipshit???

152 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 5:15:42pm

re: #124 wrenchwench

Nugent says he's insulted by concert cancellation

His military supporters should be wary, less their CO's read their support screeds.

153 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 5:15:50pm

re: #138 Unlike Some People

On December 1, 2005, Yoo appeared in a debate in Chicago with University of Notre Dame law professor Doug Cassel. During the debate Cassel asked Yoo, "If the President deems that he's got to torture somebody, including by crushing the testicles of the person's child, there is no law that can stop him?", to which Yoo replied "No treaty." Cassel followed up with "Also no law by Congress — that is what you wrote in the August 2002 memo...", to which Yoo replied "I think it depends on why the President thinks he needs to do that." [40][41]

154 CuriousLurker  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 5:16:14pm

re: #150 Mostly sane, most of the time.

Wow. Thanks. This is like the NASA streaming. I'm going to bookmark that link.

You're welcome. Be careful, it's addictive!

155 Varek Raith  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 5:18:02pm

Obama, he's a piece of sh-t, and I told him to suck on my machine gun ... Hey Hillary, you might want to ride one of these into the sunset, you worthless b—t ...
-Ted Nugent.

Nope. I see nothing threatening there.
No sirree!

156 Gus  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 5:18:37pm

re: #155 Varek Raith

Obama, he's a piece of sh-t, and I told him to suck on my machine gun ... Hey Hillary, you might want to ride one of these into the sunset, you worthless b—t ...
-Ted Nugent.

Nope. I see nothing threatening there.
No sirree!

You lefties have no sense of humor.

//

157 MittDoesNotCompute  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 5:19:00pm

re: #146 I'm a Mavrik!

GMTA...

158 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 5:20:47pm

re: #153 I'm a Mavrik!

Yeah, Yoo is a disgrace – which means that wingnuts still love him (although only the higher-ed ones).

But my point was that wingnuts usually seem to love torture because they live in a black&white world, and "bleeding-hearts don't know how to be tough on yourself so that you can be tough enough on the bad boys".

In Yoo's example, the child is that of the perpetrator (so even though de facto innocent as an individual, still implicated by kinship – another factor that appeals to atavistic policies). In mine, the child would be a completely unrelated one.

159 Gus  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 5:21:10pm

re: #146 I'm a Mavrik!

USA. 2013. Obama is the president.

Excerpt from a black helicopter recording:

- Wango Tango down, I repeat, Wango Tango down. We're returning to the base.

Sir! We found the Black Hawk. It was right next to a Coke can.

160 Varek Raith  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 5:21:14pm
161 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 5:21:19pm

re: #156 Gus

I guess we're not into oral hoplophilia...

162 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 5:21:53pm

Nugent is one right-wing celebrity we won't see going into melt-down. He started that about 50 years ago and is still at it.

163 Varek Raith  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 5:23:15pm
by Bongo Fury (6 hours and 27 minutes ago)

Rush has Priuspism?

HAHAHAHAHA

164 Gus  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 5:23:24pm

re: #160 Varek Raith

Limbaugh "Can't Wait" To Give A Prius "An Anal Exam" With Front Bumper Of His New Gas Guzzler

Okely dokely...

Ah yes. Inspiring his doughy pantload loser audience to ram into Priuses. There's actually a sexual connotation there of anal rape which is kind of typical right-wing thinking.

165 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 5:23:58pm

re: #162 Shiplord Kirel

He's a shaved ape. That's all there is to it.

166 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 5:30:53pm

re: #162 Shiplord Kirel

Nugent is one right-wing celebrity we won't see going into melt-down. He started that about 50 years ago and is still at it.

It's rather hard to top his draft dodging procedure anyway. Eww...

167 Mattand  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 5:30:53pm

re: #155 Varek Raith

Obama, he's a piece of sh-t, and I told him to suck on my machine gun ... Hey Hillary, you might want to ride one of these into the sunset, you worthless b—t ...
-Ted Nugent.

Nope. I see nothing threatening there.
No sirree!

I asked about this the other day. Why didn't the Secret Service pay the Nuge a visit then? Both Clinton and Obama were running for POTUS, IIRC.

168 Romantic Heretic  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 5:34:11pm

Well, dip me in shit and call me Stinky. What a complete and utter surprise! ///

169 CuriousLurker  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 5:35:13pm

I don't know what it is about this place, but it always makes me hungry. Gonna go start a pot of rice. BBIAB

170 wrenchwench  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 5:38:01pm

re: #169 CuriousLurker

I don't know what it is about this place, but it always makes me hungry. Gonna go start a pot of rice. BBIAB

It probably wasn't Romantic Heretic.

171 PhillyPretzel  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 5:40:11pm

re: #169 CuriousLurker

I usually am eating something when I am on the internet.

172 Gus  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 5:42:37pm

BBL

173 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 5:46:15pm

My share of good things: currently house sitting two OLD pugs (don't die on my watch!) at a beach condo in Leucadia - look it up. Designer condo, ocean breeze/view. Sunset in about 45. and there are the great restaurants right down the street. Nice. I'm getting my relax ON!

174 CuriousLurker  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 5:53:03pm

re: #170 wrenchwench

It probably wasn't Romantic Heretic.

LOL, prolly not.

175 CuriousLurker  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 5:54:17pm

re: #171 PhillyPretzel

I usually am eating something when I am on the internet.

Well it doesn't help when people have nics like PhillyPretzel. // ;)

176 CuriousLurker  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 5:56:08pm

re: #173 Stanley Sea's rule of law

My share of good things: currently house sitting two OLD pugs (don't die on my watch!) at a beach condo in Leucadia - look it up. Designer condo, ocean breeze/view. Sunset in about 45. and there are the great restaurants right down the street. Nice. I'm getting my relax ON!

Just looked it up on Google Maps. Nice!

177 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 6:06:12pm

re: #176 CuriousLurker

Just looked it up on Google Maps. Nice!

The saying is "keep Leucadia funky"

Glad u looked up!!

178 labman57  Fri, Apr 27, 2012 6:26:28pm

Those who are formally trained in interrogation techniques consistently agree that the so-called "enhanced" methods employed by the CIA were totally inappropriate and tactically inane.

These techniques are commonly used by foreign extremist groups and dictatorial regimes that are trying to get prisoners to confess to crimes that the interrogators know were not committed, i.e., they are not interested in obtaining information, their goal is the confession itself.

In other words, water-boarding is an excellent interrogation technique if your goal is:
a) a false confession
b) retribution
But if your primary objective to obtain useful intelligence, it's going to be counterproductive.


This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.

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 Frank says:

Ooooh the way you love me baby,
I get so hard now I could die.
Ooooh the way you squeeze me lady
red balloons just pop behind my eyes -- Magic Fingers, 200 Motels