Obama: “The Ideological Leader of Republicans in Congress, Paul Ryan”

Drawing the lines
Politics • Views: 28,091

President Obama is drawing the lines of the political conflict for the next few months, identifying Paul Ryan as the “ideological leader” of the Republican Party.

CHICAGO — Just over 24 hours after Rep. Paul Ryan was tapped for the vice presidential slot on the Republican ticket, President Obama today welcomed the Wisconsin congressman to the race, branding him the “ideological leader of Republicans in Congress.”

Addressing donors at a campaign fundraiser on the south side of Chicago, Obama slammed his rivals’ belief in “top-down economics” as a solution to the nation’s economic woes, insisting the approach has been tried and failed.

“This kind of top-down economics is central to Gov. [Mitt] Romney and it is central to his running mate,” Obama told roughly 1,000 donors huddled inside the Bridgeport Arts Center.

“Just yesterday, my opponent chose his running mate, the ideological leader of  Republicans in Congress, Mr. Paul Ryan. I want to congratulate Mr. Ryan.  I know him. I welcome him to the race,” Obama said.

Some members of the crowd began booing at the mention of Ryan, but Obama cut them off.

“He is a decent man, he is a family man, he is an articulate spokesman for Governor Romney’s vision, but it is a vision that I fundamentally disagree with,” he said.

There’s a lot of talk about negativity in this campaign, but here Obama is laying out a clear and positive statement about a difference in policies, and that’s what politics is supposed to be about. Romney’s choice of Paul Ryan is a clarifying moment in this election.

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196 comments
1 HappyWarrior  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:00:28pm

Obama was more nicer to Ryan than I would be. After seeing how Ryan acted towards that old man at his town hall, decent really would not be a word I would use to describe Paul Ryan but Obama makes a good point none the less.

2 engineer cat  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:02:45pm

being polite and saying nice things is a lot like what skilled debaters do when they know they have a killer shot and are about to coolly fillet their opponent

3 Romantic Heretic  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:03:24pm

Every time I read about President Obama I become more and more impressed by how classy the man is. He doesn't feel the need to rip his opponents a new one verbally. He can say, "I disagree," without adding, "because my opponent is a scumbag!" at the end of my statement.

I'm envious. Our current Prime Minister here in Canada is a psychopathic control freak.

4 Kragar  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:03:54pm

And on Mitt's sign of the fence...

5 darthstar  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:05:06pm
6 HappyWarrior  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:05:25pm

re: #2 engineer cat

being polite and saying nice things is a lot like what skilled debaters do when they know they have a killer shot and are about to coolly fillet their opponent

Oh yeah, that's why he's president and I'm never going to be elected anywhere. In fact, I'm glad he did it honestly because focusing on Ryan's bad ideas more than Ryan himself is more effective. Romney and Ryan still are going to complain about this characterization of course.

7 erik_t  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:06:03pm

The ideological leader of congressional Republicans has successfully passed two bills in something like a decade of service.

Which, for a modern Republican, really is the desired rate.

8 MittDoesNotCompute  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:07:54pm

re: #7 erik_t

The ideological leader of congressional Republicans has successfully passed two bills in something like a decade of service.

Which, for a modern Republican, really is the desired rate.

More like almost fifteen years, IIRC.

Yeah, Ryan's the poster boy for "Washington insider"; frankly, that's the kindest that I can be towards him.

9 Belafon  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:09:07pm
“He is a decent man, he is a family man, he is an articulate spokesman for Governor Romney’s vision, but it is a vision that I fundamentally disagree with,” [Obama] said.

Remember this sentence when the Republicans complain that Obama is sliming Romney and won't talk about the issues: He complemented Ryan as a decent, family man, and then went negative entirely on his policy.

10 darthstar  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:09:57pm

re: #4 Kragar

And on Mitt's sign of the fence...

[Embedded content]

Bryan Fischer should give the Keynote in Tampa (if he's not stuffing dollar bills into the thong of a Sarah Palin look-alike at a strip club).

11 HappyWarrior  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:11:16pm

re: #5 darthstar

[Embedded content]

They sound nervous. SOme of the others sound delusional. Ryan's not going to help with younger voters. He's two years younger than Palin was and his very social conservative views aren't at all compatible with the more socially liberal younger voters. And he's really not going to appeal to Catholics either. Yeah, he's Catholic but so is Biden. Ryan's economic views are unappealing to Catholic voters. It'll be like how Romney in fact beat the Catholic Santorum with Catholic voters in the primaries.

12 engineer cat  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:12:09pm

we already saw the outlines of the ryan debate last time it came up: the premise that medicare and ss are over and the only hope we have to get anything is to adopt the ayn rand plan

this will be called "being realistic and honest with the american people, facing facts, and making hard choices", as in, lying outrageously and fixing up the budget the way my rich buddies want

oh, and if you don't agree with everything the tea party wants, you are "just being partisan and divisive"

13 HappyWarrior  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:12:36pm

re: #9 Belafon

Remember this sentence when the Republicans complain that Obama is sliming Romney and won't talk about the issues: He complemented Ryan as a decent, family man, and then went negative entirely on his policy.

He's said the the same about Romney too. He's made clear that the difference between him and Romney is ideology. Romney, meanwhile stands tight lipped when a supporter calls Obama a monster. Yet who's the one complaining about personal attacks? Oh Mitt, you crying bastard.

14 engineer cat  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:14:05pm

re: #11 HappyWarrior

They sound nervous. SOme of the others sound delusional. Ryan's not going to help with younger voters. He's two years younger than Palin was and his very social conservative views aren't at all compatible with the more socially liberal younger voters. And he's really not going to appeal to Catholics either. Yeah, he's Catholic but so is Biden. Ryan's economic views are unappealing to Catholic voters. It'll be like how Romney in fact beat the Catholic Santorum with Catholic voters in the primaries.

lets run mario cuomo and biden against ryan and santorum and then we can see what kind of policies catholic voters like

15 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:14:55pm

re: #4 Kragar

And on Mitt's sign of the fence...

[Embedded content]

Proper response: [eyeroll] and . Bryan Fischer doesn't know how our system of government works and can't be bothered to learn.

16 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:17:06pm

The decent family man line was intentional, it subtly reminds people of McCain's response when grandma batshit called Obama an arab.

17 Targetpractice  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:17:08pm

re: #5 darthstar

[Embedded content]

I shit you not, I had a Boomer just tell me earlier that this might actually help Romney with the retirees. How? According to him, Ryan going out there and telling old folks they have to choose between keeping their benefits and having their kids pay or giving up their benefits "for the children" is going to get retirees to decide to sacrifice their retirements so their kids don't have to pay taxes for Medicare and SS anymore.

I was kind enough to admit that not all are going to be as "generous" as he, before remarking that in my personal experience, most retirees who don't think they've "earned" their government benefits are not going to be first in line to move in with their kids or be shuffled off to a nursing home so that the younger crowd pays less taxes.

18 HappyWarrior  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:17:15pm

re: #14 engineer cat

lets run mario cuomo and biden against ryan and santorum and then we can see what kind of policies catholic voters like

Heh. Really, the conservative hierarchy of the church admonished Ryan and his plan. The rank and file are going to be horrified with his social views and his economic views aren't going to resonate at all. American Catholics aren't going to like a guy who is more Ayn Rand than Jesus Christ on the less fortunate.

19 JamesWI  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:17:52pm

re: #15 Dark_Falcon

Proper response: [eyeroll] and . Bryan Fischer doesn't know how our system of government works and can't be bothered to learn.

Well, for the most part, it's the primary strategy that Republicans have gone with for the past decade or so. Fischer is just expecting more of the same from his party.

20 erik_t  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:18:33pm

re: #17 Targetpractice

I hope they just keep thinking that right through November.

21 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:18:37pm

re: #11 HappyWarrior

They sound nervous. SOme of the others sound delusional. Ryan's not going to help with younger voters. He's two years younger than Palin was and his very social conservative views aren't at all compatible with the more socially liberal younger voters. And he's really not going to appeal to Catholics either. Yeah, he's Catholic but so is Biden. Ryan's economic views are unappealing to Catholic voters. It'll be like how Romney in fact beat the Catholic Santorum with Catholic voters in the primaries.

Ryan doesn't make social issues his focus, and I think he'll actually resonate better than you think with younger voters. What he should do to ensure that is talk about how he's going to make sure that a restructured Medicare exists when they retire, and that if things aren't changed the system will have collapsed long before that time. He's the man with a plan, and Obama's "big fuckin' deal" hasn't saved Medicare, only postponed its bankruptcy for a few years.

22 Charles Johnson  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:20:22pm

re: #21 Dark_Falcon

From the Department of Wishful Thinking Department.

23 erik_t  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:20:40pm

re: #21 Dark_Falcon

Wut.

Any Republican vice-presidential candidate is going to be broadly anti-abortion, but Ryan goes much further. He believes ending a pregnancy should be illegal even when it results from rape or incest, or endangers a woman’s health. He was a cosponsor of the Sanctity of Human Life Act, a federal bill defining fertilized eggs as human beings, which, if passed, would criminalize some forms of birth control and in vitro fertilization. The National Right to Life Committee has scored his voting record 100 percent every year since he entered the House in 1999. “I’m as pro-life as a person gets,” he told The Weekly Standard’s John McCormack in 2010. “You’re not going to have a truce.”

24 steve_davis  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:20:50pm

re: #2 engineer cat

being polite and saying nice things is a lot like what skilled debaters do when they know they have a killer shot and are about to coolly fillet their opponent

"Brutus is an honorable man....."

25 JamesWI  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:21:26pm

re: #21 Dark_Falcon

Ryan doesn't make social issues his focus, and I think he'll actually resonate better than you think with younger voters. What he should do to ensure that is talk about how he's going to make sure that a restructured Medicare exists when they retire, and that if things aren't changed the system will have collapsed long before that time. He's the man with a plan, and Obama's "big fuckin' deal" hasn't saved Medicare, only postponed its bankruptcy for a few years.

A "restructured Medicare" meaning a gutted Medicare that hands out little vouchers.....yeah, that's gonna appeal to young voters.

"Hey, we might have some problems with funding Medicare in the future. So our solution is to pretty much destroy it!......Wait, why aren't you voting for us, we solved the problem?!?!?"

26 Charles Johnson  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:21:54pm

In the real world, we've already seen what happens when Republican "trickle-down" voodoo is allowed to be the basis for America's financial system, and it was not pretty.

27 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:22:06pm

re: #16 goddamnedfrank

The decent family man line was intentional, it subtly reminds people of McCain's response when grandma batshit called Obama an arab.

I agree that it was intentional, scripted and probably tested with focus groups to sell the desired image. Marketing aside I'm starting to think that we're forcing some nice and reasonably smart people to put on a monkey poo flinging circus to appease the unwashed masses desire for Colosseum games. This campaign season so far has been a soul crushing vapid parade of nonsense and dishonesty. I don't blame the candidates, this is what the public wants.

28 HappyWarrior  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:22:25pm

re: #21 Dark_Falcon

Ryan doesn't make social issues his focus, and I think he'll actually resonate better than you think with younger voters. What he should do to ensure that is talk about how he's going to make sure that a restructured Medicare exists when they retire, and that if things aren't changed the system will have collapsed long before that time. He's the man with a plan, and Obama's "big fuckin' deal" hasn't saved Medicare, only postponed its bankruptcy for a few years.

He may not make them his focus but they are someway or another going to find out that Ryan with the exception of his vote on ENDA is just as anti choice and gay rights as most congressional Republicans And Obama's "big fucking deal" has given many young voters health insurance that they wouldn't have if not for the legislation.

29 nines09  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:22:56pm

"I would like to congratulate Mr Romney on his choice of cinder block running mate Paul Ryan. I know this piece of offal person as the ideological leader of the Party Of Insane Lunatics Republican Party and am so giddy about that choice I am almost delirious and welcome him to the race. His abject hallucinations as a paid for hatchet man of the Koch Brothers and worse visions are different from mine for the Nation. Among many differences there is the absolute truth that I will not French Kiss David Barton, unlike Mitt Romney and Ayn Rand Paul Ryan would."

30 HappyWarrior  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:23:16pm

re: #23 erik_t

Wut.

Yeah, he's just an as much as a culture warrior as Bachmann. He's just become more known as a budget guy because of the Ryan plan.

31 darthstar  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:23:28pm

re: #21 Dark_Falcon

Ryan doesn't make social issues his focus,

Except when it comes to a fertilized egg...then he's a rabid advocate for controlling women's uteri.

32 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:23:52pm

re: #21 Dark_Falcon

Ryan doesn't make social issues his focus, and I think he'll actually resonate better than you think with younger voters. What he should do to ensure that is talk about how he's going to make sure that a restructured Medicare exists when they retire, and that if things aren't changed the system will have collapsed long before that time. He's the man with a plan, and Obama's "big fuckin' deal" hasn't saved Medicare, only postponed its bankruptcy for a few years.

Restructured Medicare isn't Medicare. What Ryan proposes is a gutted, free market voucher system that fucks everyone under 55. It's the same old shit, socialize risks so GOP cronies can privatize all the profits. Younger voters aren't stupid, they understand their own self interests. They also understand basic equal rights issues, they're going to be absolutely disgusted by a skin job, greasy frat boy who lies so transparently and voted to ban gays and lesbians from adopting children.

33 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:24:17pm

Poo flinging! Is this a private brawl or can anyone join?

34 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:24:25pm

re: #25 JamesWI

A "restructured Medicare" meaning a gutted Medicare that hands out little vouchers.....yeah, that's gonna appeal to young voters.

"Hey, we might have some problems with funding Medicare in the future. So our solution is to pretty much destroy it!......Wait, why aren't you voting for us, we solved the problem?!?!?"

Medicare will either be restructured or go bankrupt. It cannot ultimately survive on its current course, and no one in DC thinks otherwise. So, the question is not if Medicare is to be restructured, but rather what form that restructuring should take.

35 engineer cat  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:24:41pm

re: #21 Dark_Falcon

Ryan doesn't make social issues his focus, and I think he'll actually resonate better than you think with younger voters. What he should do to ensure that is talk about how he's going to make sure that a restructured Medicare exists when they retire, and that if things aren't changed the system will have collapsed long before that time. He's the man with a plan, and Obama's "big fuckin' deal" hasn't saved Medicare, only postponed its bankruptcy for a few years.

the whole argument he makes reminds me of the old "we had to destroy the village to save it" line from the vietnam war

the CBO estimated that obama's ACA extended the fiscal health of medicare for another nine years, into the mid 2020s, so don't tell me that obama has offered nothing

36 HappyWarrior  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:24:48pm

re: #31 darthstar

Except when it comes to a fertilized egg...then he's a rabid advocate for controlling women's uteri.

Or when he wants to have the federal government tell gay couples they can't marry or gay people they shouldn't have the right to serve openly in the military. Sure, he's not as in your face about it as Rick Santorum but when Ryan's social issues record gets play, he's not going to be popular with young voters at all. Ryan will be most popular with people around his age.

37 wrenchwench  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:25:01pm

re: #33 Killgore Trout

Poo flinging! Is this a private brawl or can anyone join?

You already have.

this is what the public wants.

38 erik_t  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:25:06pm

re: #34 Dark_Falcon

Medicare will either be restructured or go bankrupt.

Or option three, it will be deleted entirely by someone like Paul Ryan.

39 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:25:38pm

re: #37 wrenchwench

You already have.

Poo!

40 engineer cat  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:25:47pm

re: #26 Charles Johnson

In the real world, we've already seen what happens when Republican "trickle-down" voodoo is allowed to be the basis for America's financial system, and it was not pretty.

i wonder how many times we are going to have empirical demonstrations of the failure of supply side economics before it sinks in

41 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:26:23pm

re: #33 Killgore Trout

Poo flinging! Is this a private brawl or can anyone join?

I could use some fire support, Killgore. Any of those anti L3 missiles you've got would be handy just about now.

42 JamesWI  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:26:24pm

re: #34 Dark_Falcon

Medicare will either be restructured or go bankrupt. It cannot ultimately survive on its current course, and no one in DC thinks otherwise. So, the question is not if Medicare is to be restructured, but rather what form that restructuring should take.

Or you could....you know....not completely gut the system while giving massive tax cuts to the rich so that people like Romney can pay a 0.8% tax rate.

But your way works too.....

43 nines09  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:26:51pm

If you think about it, since Clinton killed the Glassman Steagall Act the only thing that has not been looted is Social Security. They drool over the thought.

44 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:27:06pm

Image: are_you_not_entertained.jpg

45 Targetpractice  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:27:14pm

re: #34 Dark_Falcon

Medicare will either be restructured or go bankrupt. It cannot ultimately survive on its current course, and no one in DC thinks otherwise. So, the question is not if Medicare is to be restructured, but rather what form that restructuring should take.

Then perhaps Rep. Ryan would consider a third option, namely extending Medicare to all Americans, regardless of age, and making everybody responsible for the general welfare rather than cutting the young generations a deal by making grandma pay more out of pocket for her care.

46 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:27:48pm

re: #41 Dark_Falcon

I could use some fire support, Killgore. Any of those anti L3 missiles you've got would be handy just about now.

Sorry, Monkey poo is all I got but I have plenty of it.

47 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:28:24pm

re: #35 engineer cat

the whole argument he makes reminds me of the old "we had to destroy the village to save it" line from the vietnam war

the CBO estimated that obama's ACA extended the fiscal health of medicare for another nine years, into the mid 2020s, so don't tell me that obama has offered nothing

Not nothing, but I didn't say he has done nothing. What I said was that his plan "postponed its bankruptcy for a few years", which is correct.

48 HappyWarrior  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:28:40pm

Let's get real here. Paul Ryan is just as big government as anyone. He voted with Bush over 95% of the time. He voted for all the Bush items that economists feel added to the debt. He backs away from it now. That's easy to do since Bush has become persona non grata to conservatives but it doesn't take away from the fact that Ryan still voted for those items. At least Ron Paul votes against the bailout, TARP, etc, and stays with that vote. That's more than you can say about dishonest pols like Paul Ryan who vote for this stuff and then back away from it the second it becomes unpopular.

49 Kragar  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:28:48pm

The common GOP belief that by giving the rich more tax breaks and incentives to produce more jobs has been proven to fail time and again. A company won't create a job just to create a job. Sure, they'll shuffle seats around so they can qualify for a program on paper, but at the end of it, it doesn't actually make a job.

Now, if you make sure the average man on the street has more money in his pocket, then he will have the freedom to purchase more goods and services as he wants. The more people looking for goods and services, the higher the demand. The higher the demand, the companies are going to try and get in on the market. The more companies in the market, the more jobs will be created.

This is simple supply and demand economics.

50 darthstar  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:29:25pm

re: #34 Dark_Falcon

Medicare will either be restructured or go bankrupt. It cannot ultimately survive on its current course, and no one in DC thinks otherwise. So, the question is not if Medicare is to be restructured, but rather what form that restructuring should take.

Medicare operates at a 3.5% cost overhead. Name one other business (private or otherwise) that has that low of an administrative rate. Most insurance companies operate in the high teens to low twenties.

Restructured? That's code for privatized and farmed out to profiteers.

51 jaunte  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:29:32pm

Ryan is a nut on social issues.

Ryan is a co-sponsor of the Sanctity of Human Life Act, which defines a fertilized egg as a human being — similar to recent “personhood” efforts in a handful of states.
[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

52 engineer cat  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:29:35pm

re: #34 Dark_Falcon

Medicare will either be restructured or go bankrupt. It cannot ultimately survive on its current course, and no one in DC thinks otherwise. So, the question is not if Medicare is to be restructured, but rather what form that restructuring should take.

i wonder when it will occur to the american people to start studying the solutions in place in the 150 odd other countries in the world, most of which are getting similar medical outcomes for half the cost, and, while perhaps debating cost adjustments, are not facing insolvency or politicians raving about the imminent approach of doomsday

curious, that

or are more successful solutions "unacceptable", "unamerican", or "off the table"?

53 HappyWarrior  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:29:41pm

Oh and by the way students are going to just love that Ryan's plan will result in cuting Pell Grants. Could they be any more tone deaf?

54 darthstar  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:29:54pm

re: #46 Killgore Trout

Sorry, Monkey poo is all I got but I have plenty of it.

It's all monkey-poo.

55 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:30:08pm

re: #45 Targetpractice

Then perhaps Rep. Ryan would consider a third option, namely extending Medicare to all Americans, regardless of age, and making everybody responsible for the general welfare rather than cutting the young generations a deal by making grandma pay more out of pocket for her care.

Socialized medicine and far more government? I shiver at the very thought. I'd sooner see Medicare ended than do that.

56 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:30:39pm

re: #42 JamesWI

Or you could....you know....not completely gut the system while giving massive tax cuts to the rich so that people like Romney can pay a 0.8% tax rate.

But your way works too.....

It's a simple fix. Raise taxes on the ultra wealthy while cutting defense spending and eliminating tax write offs for gambling losses, capital gains losses, second home mortgage interest and the distinction between earned and unearned income. Combine that with an end to the drug war and there's enough money to extend Medicare to everyone, implement single payer.

57 darthstar  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:31:03pm

re: #52 engineer cat

or are more successful solutions "unacceptable", "unamerican", or "off the table"?

It's odd how the patriotic "real Americans" believe America can't handle socialized medicine.

58 HappyWarrior  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:31:11pm

re: #56 goddamnedfrank

It's a simple fix. Raise taxes on the ultra wealthy while cutting defense spending and eliminating tax write offs for gambling losses, capital gains losses, second home mortgage interest and the distinction between earned and unearned income. Combine that with an end to the drug war and there's enough money to extend Medicare to everyone, implement single payer.

Sign me up.

59 Targetpractice  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:32:00pm

re: #55 Dark_Falcon

Socialized medicine and far more government? I shiver at the very thought. I'd sooner see Medicare ended than do that.

And that's what Rep. Ryan would rather have, but won't admit. Once reduced to a voucher system, where people are paying more out of pocket for the same level of care, the question will be floated "Why have this when we can just do away with it and see the 'efficiency' of the free market provide better care for less?"

60 darthstar  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:32:09pm

re: #55 Dark_Falcon

Socialized medicine and far more government? I shiver at the very thought. I'd sooner see Medicare ended than do that.

You say that now. Wait until you reach the age of 54 and realize your professional career (with insurance) has only about a decade left, at best.

61 JamesWI  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:32:13pm

re: #55 Dark_Falcon

Socialized medicine and far more government? I shiver at the very thought. I'd sooner see Medicare ended than do that.

A healthcare system where the elderly and disadvantaged people don't go bankrupt if they face a medical issue? Oooh, I'm getting so angry at the thought!

62 darthstar  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:33:02pm

My dad (a retired doctor) is on Medicare. He loves it. He still bitches about it because he felt Medicare underpaid for services he rendered, but he can't think of a better solution.

63 erik_t  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:33:19pm

Because the size of government itself is the end desirable, not the services it provides or at what cost/benefit ratio.

This is what a mindless cult looks like.

64 Interesting Times  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:34:09pm

re: #55 Dark_Falcon

Socialized medicine and far more government? I shiver at the very thought. I'd sooner see Medicare ended than do that.

Fox News talking points FTW! Can you even attempt to explain "socialized medicine" in your own words, providing objective evidence for the assertions you make?

As for "more government", that's a great way to describe the misogynistic, grotesquely intrusive anti-reproductive health care approach of the GOP (*cough* vaginal ultrasounds *cough*)

65 HappyWarrior  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:34:28pm

I don't think it's a coincidence that with things like social security and medicare being made law by FDR and LBJ respectively that our standard of living and life expectancy increased dramatically.

66 Belafon  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:34:48pm

re: #55 Dark_Falcon

So you're one of those "fuck it if it works elsewhere, I won't let it work here" types. I'm curious: How much do you charge your children for being born and living in your house? More realistically, how much do you tip the cops when they drive through your neighborhood?

67 jaunte  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:35:01pm

re: #64 Interesting Times

"Ectopic pregnancies are people, my friends."

68 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:35:31pm

re: #60 darthstar

You say that now. Wait until you reach the age of 54 and realize your professional career (with insurance) has only about a decade left, at best.

I don't expect to live to retirement age. That would be 67 for me, and I expect to kick off a good ways before that.

69 engineer cat  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:35:36pm

re: #47 Dark_Falcon

Not nothing, but I didn't say he has done nothing. What I said was that his plan "postponed its bankruptcy for a few years", which is correct.

a lot more could have been done in that regard through the ACA if the measures that would have led to more cost savings and better prospects for medicare if some other political parties had deigned to participate in the debate

in the event, a lot was thrown out of the boat in the attempt to sneak at least a few things through, including the "public option" part, which would have done a lot to extend fiscal solvency, and the abandonment of which fatally pissed of millions of progressives

so, in sum, republicans uniformly opposed the best cost savers in the ACA, leading to the obama administration throwing them out so as to get at least some vital parts passed

and then they have the gall to complain that not enough was done

70 jamesfirecat  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:36:00pm

re: #55 Dark_Falcon

Socialized medicine and far more government? I shiver at the very thought. I'd sooner see Medicare ended than do that.

"I'd rather nobody had government healthcare than everybody had it?" DF Do you realize how FUCKING heartless that is?

How many people right now depend on medicare to get by?

What horrible thing is going to happen if mediecare is expanded that is so much worse than leaving all those people in the lurch?

71 JamesWI  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:36:04pm

re: #59 Targetpractice

And that's what Rep. Ryan would rather have, but won't admit. Once reduced to a voucher system, where people are paying more out of pocket for the same level of care, the question will be floated "Why have this when we can just do away with it and see the 'efficiency' of the free market provide better care for less?"

Not to mention what happens when those with pre-existing conditions go off of their work insurance after retirement.

Seeing as the Republicans are also against coverage for pre-existing conditions. Insurance companies will look at those vouchers and say "Good luck!"

72 Interesting Times  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:36:18pm

I posted this last night, but it's worth weaving into this thread too:

73 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:36:19pm

re: #66 Belafon

So you're one of those "fuck it if it works elsewhere, I won't let it work here" types. I'm curious: How much do you charge your children for being born and living in your house? More realistically, how much do you tip the cops when they drive through your neighborhood?

I have no children, nor am I likely to ever have any.

74 MittDoesNotCompute  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:36:32pm

re: #55 Dark_Falcon

Socialized medicine and far more government? I shiver at the very thought. I'd sooner see Medicare ended than do that.

Why? Something has to be better than the morass that is the American health care system; more than any other country that has a national single-payer system, we have the population to get much better economies of scales for services, just for starters.

Of course, it's just right that the least fortunate of our citizens have the opportunity to have decent health care, instead of the horrific patchwork that's out there for them now, that is, if they qualify for it at all.

75 darthstar  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:36:52pm

re: #68 Dark_Falcon

I don't expect to live to retirement age. That would be 67 for me, and I expect to kick off a good ways before that.

You should talk to a professional about that expectation. It isn't healthy.

76 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:36:59pm

re: #68 Dark_Falcon

I don't expect to live to retirement age. That would be 67 for me, and I expect to kick off a good ways before that.

What a pathetic goddamned cynical non-response. Fucking death eater logic.

77 Kragar  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:37:20pm

re: #68 Dark_Falcon

I don't expect to live to retirement age. That would be 67 for me, and I expect to kick off a good ways before that.

So your personal answer to dealing with old age is hope you die early?

78 JamesWI  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:37:21pm

re: #68 Dark_Falcon

I don't expect to live to retirement age. That would be 67 for me, and I expect to kick off a good ways before that.

I got mine, fuck everyone else.

Thank you for once again illustrating the mindset of the current Republican party. You do it so well.

79 Targetpractice  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:37:37pm

re: #71 JamesWI

Not to mention what happens when those with pre-existing conditions go off of their work insurance after retirement.

Seeing as the Republicans are also against coverage for pre-existing conditions. Insurance companies will look at those vouchers and say "Good luck!"

Ayep, how many companies are going to do more than look at those vouchers and laugh?

80 engineer cat  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:38:01pm

re: #47 Dark_Falcon

Not nothing, but I didn't say he has done nothing. What I said was that his plan "postponed its bankruptcy for a few years", which is correct.

also, ryan's argument is not that he is going to extend the fiscal health of medicare, it's "you ain't gonna have no medicare, so you better accept what i'm gonna offer or you'll get bupkis, buster"

i would love to hear a republican plan for permanently solving medicare's fiscal problems - not proposals to get rid of it

81 jamesfirecat  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:38:08pm

re: #68 Dark_Falcon

I don't expect to live to retirement age. That would be 67 for me, and I expect to kick off a good ways before that.

F*** you I've got mine.

Do you not realize that what you just said is no different than someonw who admits AGW is real, but doesn't care because they plan to be dead before it ruins the planet and human civilization?

82 darthstar  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:38:16pm

re: #73 Dark_Falcon

I have no children, nor am I likely to ever have any.

Might I suggest not talking about Medicare, Social Security, or politics when you're chatting up some cutie in a bar? Could change your odds.

83 Amory Blaine  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:38:50pm

OMG OBAMA IS THA meanz!!!!

84 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:39:26pm

re: #75 darthstar

You should talk to a professional about that expectation. It isn't healthy.

Why would I want to live to retire? What possible use would that be to anyone?

85 Kragar  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:39:28pm

Vouchers: pay off to the rubes so they'll think they're getting back what they put in.

86 Belafon  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:39:41pm

re: #68 Dark_Falcon

Yes, and you could get hit by a car that leaves you in a wheelchair and unable to take care of yourself. Then your family gets to take care of you on their expense. Won't that be awesome.

87 Targetpractice  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:39:54pm

re: #80 engineer cat

also, ryan's argument is not that he is going to extend the fiscal health of medicare, it's "you ain't gonna have no medicare, so you better accept what i'm gonna offer or you'll get bupkis, buster"

i would love to hear a republican plan for permanently solving medicare's fiscal problems - not proposals to get rid of it

They have none, because they don't want Medicare, they see it as a "dependency." It's their belief that the "moral" thing, the "patriotic" thing, is to get people surviving on their own in whatever manner possible. If not every boat rises with the incoming tide, well, there's plenty of room in the world for ditch diggers.

88 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:39:56pm

IMO-The real point about medicare services is not structure but assurance of adequate funding and adequate resources in the medical community. Dark makes a good point about the current trajectory of the existing system. How to beat the inflation and tax fairly is the crux. I don't expect Romney plans if elected to go with any "Ryan plan". He would make his own anyway. Vice Presidents are (at best) beck seat drives of policy.

Socialized and underfunded or privatized and underfunded is not a sane set of options.

89 engineer cat  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:40:04pm

re: #55 Dark_Falcon

Socialized medicine and far more government? I shiver at the very thought. I'd sooner see Medicare ended than do that.

and right there is the reason we have the worst medical financing system in the civilized world

republicans don't want "socialized" medicine, so we get anti-social medicine

90 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:40:23pm

I love talking with people who've surrendered to the idea that they're irrevocably broken. It's not depressing at all.

91 Targetpractice  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:40:39pm

re: #85 Kragar

Vouchers: pay off to the rubes so they'll think they're getting back what they put in.

Pretty much. "Sorry this voucher is for so little, but that's all that's left of what you gave us. Now don't whine, you're getting back what you paid in!"

92 Amory Blaine  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:40:59pm

re: #68 Dark_Falcon

Can't count on that. You might live till you're 90!

93 wrenchwench  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:41:05pm

re: #84 Dark_Falcon

Why would I want to live to retire? What possible use would that be to anyone?

You are never forced to retire. You can keep working. You also are not required to be of any use to anyone, but that doesn't mean you should stand in their way of having access to medical care.

94 Targetpractice  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:41:31pm

re: #88 Daniel Ballard

IMO-The real point about medicare services is not structure but assurance of adequate funding and adequate resources in the medical community. Dark makes a good point about the current trajectory of the existing system. How to beat the inflation and tax fairly is the crux. I don't expect Romney plans if elected to go with any "Ryan plan". He would make his own anyway. Vice Presidents are (at best) beck seat drives of policy.

Socialized and underfunded or privatized and underfunded is not a sane set of options.

If the Romney Plan is not the Ryan Plan, then he needs to start coughing up his own. Otherwise, the Ryan Plan is all there is to view and it's absolute shite.

95 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:41:34pm

re: #83 Amory Blaine

OMG OBAMA IS THA meanz!!!!

He's not and I've said he's not many times.

To be clear: I think Barack Obama is wrong, not malicious. I have never detected malice in his actions.

96 engineer cat  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:42:15pm

democrats need to start framing these arguments with the skill that republicans have used:

it's not "socialized medicine" vs the "free market", it's rational, proven medical financing systems vs. half assed untested theories

97 darthstar  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:43:00pm

re: #84 Dark_Falcon

Why would I want to live to retire? What possible use would that be to anyone?

Here's where you and I are different. Me, I don't have kids either. My wife and I tried, but lost it, and are now looking at adoption. I make a good salary, and live in a modest house, but love the location. I also love the people around me - including those with whom I work. Even if we don't adopt, I can try to make the lives of people I meet better (or less shitty) by being a positive interaction for them. It makes the planet a better place, and while I may not see any actual return, I sleep well knowing that at least I tried to make the planet a better place. And for that reason alone, I'm willing to live to 100 if I can.

98 jamesfirecat  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:43:50pm

re: #84 Dark_Falcon

Why would I want to live to retire? What possible use would that be to anyone?

Jesus Christ, as much as I love a good pile on that's it I'm done.


DF I seriously hope you live to retire because when the modern GOP explodes as they realize that the socons will not need elections they are going to need something new, and people like you are going to need to be there to help form a new functioning loyal opposition party that at least doesn't claim to be all about small government while choosing who can marry whome and who can and get an abortion and when they can get it (and what medical procedures they have to go through first.

Seriously DF I consider you a friend and LGF would be much poorer without you.

99 JamesWI  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:44:13pm

So let's see here......

Ryan wants to get rid of student loans/grants.....so you can forget about the youth vote.

Ryan wants to control women's reproductive organs......so you can forget about the (large majority of) the female vote.

Ryan wants to gut Medicare and Social Security.....so you can forget about the elderly, disadvantaged, disabled, or otherwise infirm vote.

Sounds like you've got a real winner on your hands!

100 engineer cat  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:44:17pm

sorry about my tone, D_F - the whole thing pisses me off because of the elaborate superstructure of lies that ryan sells so smugly

101 Amory Blaine  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:44:19pm

re: #95 Dark_Falcon

I was just speculating what the reaction is going to be from republicans, I wasn't directing that at you.

102 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:45:18pm

re: #94 Targetpractice

How often do we expect the VP plan for any major policy to be the plan for the new administration? It may be all we have to discuss, but it seems kinda moot. Either they lose the election or his plan disappears by late January anyway.

103 darthstar  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:45:20pm

Ha!

104 nines09  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:45:57pm

re: #68 Dark_Falcon

I don't expect to live to retirement age. That would be 67 for me, and I expect to kick off a good ways before that.

re: #84 Dark_Falcon

Why would I want to live to retire? What possible use would that be to anyone?

Oh I don't know. Maybe to enjoy life? Swim? Watch a ball game? Hockey? Your choice. Smell the roses.

105 jaunte  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:46:15pm

re: #102 Daniel Ballard

I don't think it would be as much of a topic if Romney himself hadn't been all over the map on policy.

106 Amory Blaine  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:47:19pm

re: #99 JamesWI

Many people have convinced themselves they do not benefit from government.

107 darthstar  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:47:38pm

re: #104 nines09

re: #84 Dark_Falcon

Oh I don't know. Maybe to enjoy life? Swim? Watch a ball game? Hockey? Your choice. Smell the roses.

Hell, even standing on a corner waving to passers-by.

108 Targetpractice  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:47:41pm

re: #102 Daniel Ballard

How often do we expect the VP plan for any major policy to be the plan for the new administration? It may be all we have to discuss, but it seems kinda moot. Either they lose the election or his plan disappears by late January anyway.

Yeah, except Romney was slobbering all over the Ryan budget earlier this year and stated today he'd sign it if elected president. It is, until Romney offers an alternative, all that's on the table and thus can be seen as a credible indication of what a Romney presidency would bring to America.

109 HappyWarrior  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:47:46pm

re: #105 jaunte

I don't think it would be as much of a topic if Romney himself hadn't been all over the map on policy.

I think part of the reason it's an issue is because it's obviously the reason they chose him. Without the Ryan plan, who is Paul Ryan? THat's a honest question. He's been in Congress since 1998 and has two bills to his name that have passed and much of his congressional career has been spent with his party being the majority so he cna't say being in the minority party has hindered him.

110 Kragar  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:48:01pm

Palin will not speak at Republican convention

111 compound_Idaho  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:48:14pm

re: #104 nines09

re: #84 Dark_Falcon

Oh I don't know. Maybe to enjoy life? Swim? Watch a ball game? Hockey? Your choice. Smell the roses.

I do all that now. At 50+, still working, I honestly do not look forward to retirement. I really don't know what I would do.

112 Belafon  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:48:25pm

re: #102 Daniel Ballard

Did you forget about the House and most of the Republicans in the Senate voting for the bill?

113 engineer cat  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:48:57pm

re: #68 Dark_Falcon

I don't expect to live to retirement age. That would be 67 for me, and I expect to kick off a good ways before that.

oh geez don't say that, d00d! you should live long and have a happy old age being wise and stuff

114 Targetpractice  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:49:50pm

re: #110 Kragar

Palin will not speak at Republican convention

"And nothing of value was lost."

115 HappyWarrior  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:50:05pm

I'm far as way from retirement as one can be. Hell, just out of college at that. I see retirement as my time to things I won't be able to do in my career like travel, see baseball games, etc.

116 Amory Blaine  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:50:06pm

re: #110 Kragar

Palin will not speak at Republican convention

Her and GW can have a variety show hour instead.

117 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:50:19pm

re: #99 JamesWI

What I really think Paul Ryan wants on student loans would be something like what Nicole Gelinas wants:

Who, then, will lend to students? Banks and investors. Let these lenders demand data from colleges, students, and credit-rating bureaus to assess which schools and programs boast the best graduation rates, the best alumni-donation rates, and the highest graduate incomes. Let these lenders, too, assess students’ own credit, job, and grade histories. The lenders can use this free-market information to decide which schools and students are the best bets. And let the borrowers have this information, too, so that they know the risk they’re taking. Finally, allow students the option of discharging their future student-loan debt through bankruptcy, something that they can’t do now. Such a change would make clear to lenders the real market risk they’re taking.

It’s likely, of course, that such moves would prompt howls of protest from all quarters. Student “advocates” would drag up the usual arguments about how federally subsidized loans help middle-class kids compete with rich kids. Not really: too much federally subsidized borrowing pushes up the cost of college for middle-class kids and encourages them to avoid tough decisions about their futures. Schools would hate the new approach, too. They don’t want a free-market assessment of their success rates. They do want students who can keep blindly borrowing to afford sky-high tuitions. Moreover, schools don’t want middle-class students questioning why they’ve got to pay for a state-of-the art gym and luxury dorm room when all they want is a decent education.

Of course, reforming the student-loan system along these lines would depend on a functional financial system—that is, on banks and big investors that devote most of their energy to the nuts and bolts of borrowing and lending, rather than to jumping through government hoops to assure bailouts in the next financial crisis. If banks and investors can’t do responsible student lending, that’s a sign that the financial system is still broken—a much worse portent for future college graduates than higher interest rates on loans.

Mitt Romney should have seized this opportunity to communicate directly to college students and their parents and explain why more government subsidy is the wrong approach to student-loan financing. If Romney wants to portray himself as the free-market alternative to President Obama, he missed a chance to do it.

The thing is that her approach would require consistent regulation that would not be soon shot through with lobbyist-generated loopholes. So it would not be a libertarian system. But banking can't really be that, truth to tell.

118 MittDoesNotCompute  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:50:24pm

re: #110 Kragar

Palin will not speak at Republican convention

re: #114 Targetpractice

"And nothing of value was lost."

"And not a fuck was given that day..."

119 JamesWI  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:50:37pm

re: #114 Targetpractice

"And nothing of value was lost."

Well, you can't really say that. We all would get a great deal of entertainment out of it, and that certainly has value.

120 HappyWarrior  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:51:04pm

re: #110 Kragar

Palin will not speak at Republican convention

I'm not surprised. Palin will want to make it about her and I think Romney can't stand her and I don't blame him at all if he does.

121 darthstar  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:51:07pm

re: #118 TedStriker

re: #114 Targetpractice

"And not a fuck was given that day..."

Wait, I have a fuck to give...oh, Palin's not speaking? Never mind...I'll save it for something worthwhile.

122 MittDoesNotCompute  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:51:33pm

re: #119 JamesWI

Well, you can't really say that. We all would get a great deal of entertainment out of it, and that certainly has value.

Like mud wrestling.

123 Only The Lurker Knows  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:51:56pm

re: #68 Dark_Falcon

Well, I for one plan on living well past my retirement age and want a system (that I have and still am paying) into around when that day comes, thank you very much. Anything wrong with that?

124 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:52:28pm

re: #116 Amory Blaine

Her and GW can have a variety show hour instead.

George W. Bush wouldn't go near her. He is more decent and tolerant than she will ever be.

125 HappyWarrior  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:52:44pm

Palin didn't speak at the 2004 RNC either. I think I remember reading somewhere that her and her husband either supported Buchanan's 1992 or 96 run for president or 2000 Reform Party run. I imagine it was the the former.

126 compound_Idaho  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:52:58pm

re: #123 Bubblehead II

WTF with the smoke? It's thick here.

127 JamesWI  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:53:14pm

re: #117 Dark_Falcon

What I really think Paul Ryan wants on student loans would be something like what Nicole Gelinas wants:

The thing is that her approach would require consistent regulation that would not be soon shot through with lobbyist-generated loopholes. So it would not be a libertarian system. But banking can't really be that, truth to tell.

Ah yes, hand over all student loan responsibilities to for-profit corporations. I'm sure interest rates will stay reasonable and college will remain accessible under that plan!

/

128 jamesfirecat  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:53:34pm

re: #117 Dark_Falcon

What I really think Paul Ryan wants on student loans would be something like what Nicole Gelinas wants:

The thing is that her approach would require consistent regulation that would not be soon shot through with lobbyist-generated loopholes. So it would not be a libertarian system. But banking can't really be that, truth to tell.

By the way DF if you ever think that you don't have a purpose in life beyond work, just keep this in mind, you still have not finished up the LGF D&D Dungeon and gotten a chance to have me and a few other lizards run through it! ;)

129 Renaissance_Man  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:53:52pm

re: #68 Dark_Falcon

I don't expect to live to retirement age. That would be 67 for me, and I expect to kick off a good ways before that.

re: #73 Dark_Falcon

I have no children, nor am I likely to ever have any.

re: #84 Dark_Falcon

Why would I want to live to retire? What possible use would that be to anyone?

It is possible that if you hated yourself less, you might not so willingly embrace a political cult that so blatantly hates you too.

130 HappyWarrior  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:54:43pm

re: #124 Dark_Falcon

George W. Bush wouldn't go near her. He is more decent and tolerant than she will ever be.

Heh that's true even if Bush was a bigot on Palin's level. You said a more decent and tolerant man than she''ll ever be. Just razzing you, I agree, Bush for all my faults with his ideology doesn't have Palin's vindictive nature. I read Ted Kennedy's autobiography and I was touched by despite the fact that Teddy had been a huge critic of Bush that Bush reached out to him on immigration.

131 Lidane  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:55:00pm

re: #21 Dark_Falcon

What he should do to ensure that is talk about how he's going to make sure that a restructured Medicare exists when they retire

Oh please. He doesn't want to restructure Medicare. He wants to destroy it, and everyone knows it.

His plan sucks. His economic ideas suck. His social issues ideas suck. It's as simple as that.

132 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:55:02pm

re: #112 Belafon

Did you forget about the House and most of the Republicans in the Senate voting for the bill?

No not at all. The house may or may not stay GOP, the Senate will remain Dem, so the Ryan plan never even makes the Presidents desk to sign. It will take Presidential political capitol on an epic scale to get a Medicare bill through at all.

If he wins (not gonna happen anyway) the new cabinet, new TP advisers all walk all over any and all previous positions. Etch a sketch in a concrete mixer.

Oh and welcome to the board!

I could be wrong, but that's my read on the situation.

133 Targetpractice  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:55:10pm

The London 2012 Olympic Games closing ceremonies...

Or "How many British music acts can we show off in under three hours?"

134 nines09  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:55:18pm

re: #111 compound_Idaho

Collect snow flakes. Sun rises. Sun sets. Rain drops. Smell the rain. Hear and feel the snow crunch under your feet. Sweat. Discover 15 different kinds of snow. Measure rainfall. Temperature. Call Jim Cantore and ask him what the hell he's on. Visit Little Green Footballs. Call out bullshit. Lift weights. Put weights down. Walk. Stop walking and run. Fall down. Write letters to foreigners. Volunteer. I have to stop. I'm getting tired.

135 engineer cat  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:55:55pm

re: #47 Dark_Falcon

Not nothing, but I didn't say he has done nothing. What I said was that his plan "postponed its bankruptcy for a few years", which is correct.

by the way, i take your point on this particular - you did say "postpone" and not "did nothing" - my apologies

136 JamesWI  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:56:16pm

re: #133 Targetpractice

The London 2012 Olympic Games closing ceremonies...

Or "How many British music acts can we show off in under three hours?"

My thoughts...."Really? The band that did 'Our House'? That's one of the biggest cultural gifts the UK has given us?"

137 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:56:49pm

re: #68 Dark_Falcon

I don't expect to live to retirement age. That would be 67 for me, and I expect to kick off a good ways before that.

I dunno 'bout your health, but I for one want you to prevail and live a long life. Fasten your seatbelt and eat right ok?

138 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:56:54pm

re: #128 jamesfirecat

By the way DF if you ever think that you don't have a purpose in life beyond work, just keep this in mind, you still have not finished up the LGF D&D Dungeon and gotten a chance to have me and a few other lizards run through it! ;)

The problem with that one is that I painted myself into a corner. I made Sarah Palin the arch-villain, and when she faded I was left without an ending.

139 Kragar  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:56:56pm
140 Interesting Times  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:57:17pm

re: #129 Renaissance_Man

Have you ever considered writing a more in-depth essay re the conservative hate cult and its media enablers? Your comments on the subject have been excellent and deserve to be all in one package, so to speak.

141 HappyWarrior  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:57:28pm

re: #133 Targetpractice

The London 2012 Olympic Games closing ceremonies...

Or "How many British music acts can we show off in under three hours?"

Well, my little second cousin is going to remember this forever. Her, my cousin, and her dad live right near where the bikes were racing in the Olympics. I'm sure while the Olympics were a great thrill, they're going to be happy to have their old London back too.

142 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:57:35pm

re: #139 Kragar

hahahahhahahhahahhahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

143 Targetpractice  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:57:50pm

re: #136 JamesWI

My thoughts...."Really? The band who did 'Our House'? That's one of the biggest cultural gifts the UK has given us?"

Seems more like all the "gifts" they've given us since the last London games back in '48.

144 jaunte  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:58:01pm

Ryan "voted in 2012 for a measure that sought to stop the Education Department from implementing regulations intended to stop deceptive marketing by for-profit colleges", the focus of a 2010 Government Accountability Office investigation.

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]
....
Report Finds Low Graduation Rates at For-Profit Colleges
A new report on graduation rates at for-profit colleges by a nonprofit research and advocacy group charges that such colleges deliver “little more than crippling debt,”

145 Tigger2  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:58:14pm

re: #88 Daniel Ballard

IMO-The real point about medicare services is not structure but assurance of adequate funding and adequate resources in the medical community. Dark makes a good point about the current trajectory of the existing system. How to beat the inflation and tax fairly is the crux. I don't expect Romney plans if elected to go with any "Ryan plan". He would make his own anyway. Vice Presidents are (at best) beck seat drives of policy.

Socialized and underfunded or privatized and underfunded is not a sane set of options.

Who are you trying to bullshit, If Romney was President and the Ryan bill landed on his table he would sign it.

146 erik_t  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:58:45pm

re: #133 Targetpractice

The London 2012 Olympic Games closing ceremonies...

Or "How many British music acts can we show off in under three hours?"

People paid actual money to go to school to learn how to do... this.

Takes all kinds.

147 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:59:09pm

re: #139 Kragar

Quick, call 911! Bryan Fischer needs a WHAAAAAMMBULANCE at once!

148 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:59:14pm
149 jamesfirecat  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:59:18pm

re: #138 Dark_Falcon

The problem with that one is that I painted myself into a corner. I made Sarah Palin the arch-villain, and when she faded I was left without an ending.

Ehh it's hardly like Sarah Palin has faded away. Though if you want to use a dark Litch for the villain, someone with no heart quite literally who is only clinging to life through dark rituals and mystic dodads.... you could always have it be Dick Cheney.

(Too mean?)

150 HappyWarrior  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:59:23pm

re: #139 Kragar

[Embedded content]

Wahh, our queen in waiting isn't allowed to speak. Bryan, if you love Sarah so much, please start your own country somewhere and crown her.

151 Lidane  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 6:59:25pm

re: #139 Kragar

So Fischer wants Romney to remind everyone that Caribou Barbie is still around? Geez, he must really hate Mittens then.

152 darthstar  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 7:00:36pm

re: #133 Targetpractice

The London 2012 Olympic Games closing ceremonies...

Or "How many British music acts can we show off in under three hours?"

"We've had your attention for two weeks...now get off our soggy island or we'll bring out the Spice Girls."

153 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 7:00:49pm

re: #135 engineer cat

by the way, i take your point on this particular - you did say "postpone" and not "did nothing" - my apologies

Thank you for that.

And sorry to all about the trip down the dark corridors of my fears. Sometimes on Sunday nights they get the better of me and say things I ought not to.

154 JamesWI  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 7:01:06pm

Alright, time to stop paying attention to the thread and watch Breaking Bad. Later.

155 Targetpractice  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 7:02:07pm

re: #151 Lidane

So Fischer wants Romney to remind everyone that Caribou Barbie is still around? Geez, he must really hate Mittens then.

He very likely does, but Romney's the GOP's nominee and openly opposing him would just help Obama. So, as far as he's concerned, swallowing his pride and supporting Willard is the lesser of two evils.

156 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 7:02:10pm

re: #152 darthstar

"We've had your attention for two weeks...now get off our soggy island or we'll bring out the Spice Girls."

So the ceremony was planned by Maj. Chip Hazard, then?

/movie reference, 2 updings to the first to name the movie.

157 darthstar  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 7:02:20pm

Romney/Ryan on 60 minutes or World Series of Poker? Well, that's an easy choice. I'll catch Romney/Ryan during the commercial breaks.

158 compound_Idaho  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 7:02:35pm

re: #111 compound_Idaho

Collect snow flakes. Sun rises. Sun sets. Rain drops. Smell the rain. Hear and feel the snow crunch under your feet. Sweat. Discover 15 different kinds of snow. Measure rainfall. Temperature. Call Jim Cantore and ask him what the hell he's on. Visit Little Green Footballs. Call out bullshit. Lift weights. Put weights down. Walk. Stop walking and run. Fall down. Write letters to foreigners. Volunteer. I have to stop. I'm getting tired.

My advice, don't wait until you are retired to do those things.

159 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 7:02:35pm

re: #150 HappyWarrior

Wahh, our queen in waiting isn't allowed to speak. Bryan, if you love Sarah so much, please start your own country somewhere and crown her.

The country of hate, snark, bad language and bad attire. All filmed by reality TV cameras. PALINLAND!

160 Achilles Tang  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 7:02:49pm

That's a funny dig, and I hope a deliberate one; The Ideological Leader of Republicans in Congress, Paul Ryan; not the presidential wannabe.

161 Kragar  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 7:04:12pm

re: #156 Dark_Falcon

So the ceremony was planned by Maj. Chip Hazard, then?

/movie reference, 2 updings to the first to name the movie.

Small Soldiers

162 HappyWarrior  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 7:05:05pm

re: #159 Stanley Sea

The country of hate, snark, bad language and bad attire. All filmed by reality TV cameras. PALINLAND!

Sounds like a fun place huh. Really, for all my disgust with the GOP, I'm glad it seems that their establishment at least wants nothing to do with Sarah Palin because I think she'd be the worst president this country ever had and I try not to engage in hyperbole but I really think she would put Buchanan, Andrew Johnson, and Harding to shame.

163 nines09  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 7:05:20pm

re: #158 compound_Idaho

re: #111 compound_Idaho

Collect snow flakes. Sun rises. Sun sets. Rain drops. Smell the rain. Hear and feel the snow crunch under your feet. Sweat. Discover 15 different kinds of snow. Measure rainfall. Temperature. Call Jim Cantore and ask him what the hell he's on. Visit Little Green Footballs. Call out bullshit. Lift weights. Put weights down. Walk. Stop walking and run. Fall down. Write letters to foreigners. Volunteer. I have to stop. I'm getting tired.

My advice, don't wait until you are retired to do those things.

You perfect them as a retiree.

164 jamesfirecat  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 7:05:47pm

re: #153 Dark_Falcon

Thank you for that.

And sorry to all about the trip down the dark corridors of my fears. Sometimes on Sunday nights they get the better of me and say things I ought not to.

DF do yourself a favor and give Star Trek Six The Undiscovered Country a rewatch sometime....

It's a good movie about people dealing with the realization of how the world is not as they once knew it and how it can drive them to both great and terrible acts...

165 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 7:06:01pm

re: #145 Tigger2

Not trying to BS anyone. The VP is not the policy driver. The President and his cabinet do that.
How does a Ryan plan clear the Senate?

166 Targetpractice  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 7:06:45pm

They had Cleese in the opening ceremonies and now Idle in the ending.

167 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 7:07:58pm

re: #155 Targetpractice

He very likely does, but Romney's the GOP's nominee and openly opposing him would just help Obama. So, as far as he's concerned, swallowing his pride and supporting Willard is the lesser of two evils.

Fischer does not like Romney at all and will jerk Romney's chain when he can. But on this matter he really can't without looking like an asshole to his own faction. There are other factions in the GOP and Bryan Fischer doesn't have enough power to simply demand a role for Sarah Palin. Mitt Romney could not accede to such a request; The Democrats would kill him with such an assession were he to give it. He'd refuse and then Fischer would have to either back down or flounce. Bryan Fischer is a crazy wingnut, but he's not so far gone that he can't figure this one out. So he'll squawk about Palin not speaking, but that all he'll do for now.

168 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 7:08:35pm

re: #164 jamesfirecat

DF do yourself a favor and give Star Trek Six The Undiscovered Country a rewatch sometime....

It's a good movie about people dealing with the realization of how the world is not as they once knew it and how it can drive them to both great and terrible acts...

I've seen it many times, James.

169 compound_Idaho  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 7:08:42pm

re: #165 Daniel Ballard

Not trying to BS anyone. The VP id not the policy driver. The President and his cabinet do that.
How does a Ryan plan clear the Senate?

Absolutely nothing clears the senate with Harry Reid in charge.

170 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 7:09:09pm

re: #161 Kragar

Small Soldiers

Correct.

171 Targetpractice  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 7:10:12pm

re: #168 Dark_Falcon

I've seen it many times, James.

*raises glass* To the undiscovered country.

172 Kragar  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 7:10:43pm

re: #170 Dark_Falcon

Correct.

I still love the fact that David Cross has a career in kid's movies.

173 Belafon  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 7:10:46pm

re: #132 Daniel Ballard

Thanks for the welcome. I've been lurking for a while, just decided it was time to comment, especially when I hear the "I'll get sick on the evening after I retire and die" nonsense DF is pushing.

You might be right, but the scenario I see is the one that's been pushed for the last 30 years: We've gotta cut taxes on the wealthy, who will pee on the rest of us, magically making us all of us hard-working (ie white Christian male) people so rich that we can all snub our noses at the lazy scum who don't deserve things like Medicare and Medicaid and contraceptives anyway.

174 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 7:13:30pm

re: #173 Belafon

I'm an advocate of the Clinton era tax charts. I think the Kennedy tax cuts and Reagan tax cut (yet a corporate tax increase) worked out pretty well. Leaving out the excess spending that then happened of course, a sad shame and a lost opportunity. The HW tax deal was idyllic by todays standards and it set the stage for the Clinton era boom. Spending limits and sensible increases in Federal revenues.

175 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 7:16:34pm

re: #171 Targetpractice

*raises glass* To the undiscovered country.

And to Christopher Plummer. Only Ricardo Montalban was a Star Trek villain on his level.

176 Only The Lurker Knows  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 7:16:50pm

re: #126 compound_Idaho

WTF with the smoke? It's thick here.

Depends on where you are at. South Central Idaho is mainly from the Cave Canyon fire. Up north is from the Halstead fire by Stanley. Last I heard, there were aslso one or two in the Boise area as well. Really fucked with me watching the meteor shower this morning.

177 Targetpractice  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 7:18:42pm

re: #175 Dark_Falcon

And to Christopher Plummer. Only Ricardo Montalban was a Star Trek villain on his level.

Malcolm McDowell did pretty well in Generations. I've always liked it when villains aren't people just evil for evil's sake, but are flawed people who see their choices as the only option.

178 HappyWarrior  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 7:19:59pm

re: #177 Targetpractice

Malcolm McDowell did pretty well in Generations. I've always liked it when villains aren't people just evil for evil's sake, but are flawed people who see their choices as the only option.

Those are the best type. It's not as entertaining and provoking when someone is pretty much a cartoon character.

179 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 7:20:36pm

re: #177 Targetpractice

Malcolm McDowell did pretty well in Generations. I've always liked it when villains aren't people just evil for evil's sake, but are flawed people who see their choices as the only option.

Me too. Gen. Chang is fairly believable because the audience can imagine how he might feel, facing the situation he faces.

180 jamesfirecat  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 7:20:42pm

re: #175 Dark_Falcon

And to Christopher Plummer. Only Ricardo Montalban was a Star Trek villain on his level.

It's a shame Malcom McDowlelle didn't do better, but that was probably the scripts fault more than anything, between Generations and Tank Girl, he really has had some bad luck picking what movies to be in...

181 compound_Idaho  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 7:21:45pm

re: #176 Bubblehead II

Depends on where you are at. South Central Idaho is mainly from the Cave Canyon fire. Up north is from the Halstead fire by Stanley. Last I heard, there were aslso one or two in the Boise area as well.

The smoke here in southeast Idaho is as thick as I can remember, but I wasn't in Idaho in 1910.

182 Targetpractice  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 7:21:54pm

re: #179 Dark_Falcon

Me too. Gen. Chang is fairly believable because the audience can imagine how he might feel, facing the situation he faces.

There were plenty of Changs and Kirks in the world after '91, realizing that the world they'd spent decades cultivating was coming to an end and the one replacing it saw them as allies, if not friends.

183 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 7:25:14pm

re: #182 Targetpractice

There were plenty of Changs and Kirks in the world after '91, realizing that the world they'd spent decades cultivating was coming to an end and the one replacing it saw them as allies, if not friends.

But that wasn't really true, was it? The USSR fell because it was too broke and too obviously dysfunctional to survive. Russians still did not like the US very much, and even today they still see America as more of a problem than an ally.

184 Targetpractice  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 7:26:02pm

re: #183 Dark_Falcon

But that wasn't really true, was it? The USSR fell because it was too broke and too obviously dysfunctional to survive. Russians still did not like the US very much, and even today they still see America as more of a problem than an ally.

Feeling seems to be generally mutual. Two decades later and we still have politicians acting as though the Cold War never ended and Russia is just biding its time.

185 jamesfirecat  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 7:29:14pm

re: #183 Dark_Falcon

But that wasn't really true, was it? The USSR fell because it was too broke and too obviously dysfunctional to survive. Russians still did not like the US very much, and even today they still see America as more of a problem than an ally.

How much time passed between Undiscovered Country and the start of TNG?

We're still only just over two decades since the empire fell, changes like that don't happen over night, but they do happen.

186 Only The Lurker Knows  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 7:29:57pm

re: #181 compound_Idaho

This is a link to the current fires burning in Idaho.

187 Daniel Ballard  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 7:30:44pm

re: #184 Targetpractice

Well NATO should not have aggressively expanded. That's on the west and Bush. That having been said, Putin gives me the cold war chills.

188 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 7:31:46pm

re: #185 jamesfirecat

How much time passed between Undiscovered Country and the start of TNG?

We're still only just over two decades since the empire fell, changes like that don't happen over night, but they do happen.

Decades pass. But people seldom think in terms of decades, since we live in the short to mid term.

189 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 7:35:22pm

re: #187 Daniel Ballard

Well NATO should not have aggressively expanded. That's on the west and Bush. That having been said, Putin gives me the cold war chills.

I'm going to head upstairs, but I'll close out on this thread with John McCain's remark in reply to GWB's line about having "looked into Vladimir Putin's eyes and seen his soul". McCain said: "I looked into Putin's eyes too and I saw three letters: A 'K', a 'G', and a 'B'."

190 sagehen  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 7:58:41pm

re: #62 darthstar

My dad (a retired doctor) is on Medicare. He loves it. He still bitches about it because he felt Medicare underpaid for services he rendered, but he can't think of a better solution.

My dad was a doctor too (he's dead now); when Medicare was first proposed he groused about expectations of being underpaid, but within 5 years he was singing its praises.

The people it "underpays" for turned out to be people he'd otherwise have been treating for free (anesthesia, it wasn't his choice which patients he was assigned to); and once we figured in the amount of time and effort it took to collect from private insurance and/or the patients, medicare turned out to be not such an underpay after all.

191 sagehen  Sun, Aug 12, 2012 8:13:27pm

re: #175 Dark_Falcon

And to Christopher Plummer. Only Ricardo Montalban was a Star Trek villain on his level.

Benedict Cumberbatch is going to be the villain in the next Star Trek, he'll be the awesomest ever.

192 7-y (Expectation of Great Things in Due Course)  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 4:01:17am

re: #75 darthstar

I agree. When I was younger, I used to think that I would likely die at age 57, which was true for my father and both grandfathers. Now, I will be 65 in a couple of weeks and—day to day—am thrilled at how much pleasure remains in life. My plans now include 25 more years! So, forget that "not here at age 67 crap."

193 Destro  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 7:55:54am

re: #17 Targetpractice

I shit you not, I had a Boomer just tell me earlier that this might actually help Romney with the retirees. How? According to him, Ryan going out there and telling old folks they have to choose between keeping their benefits and having their kids pay or giving up their benefits "for the children" is going to get retirees to decide to sacrifice their retirements so their kids don't have to pay taxes for Medicare and SS anymore.

I was kind enough to admit that not all are going to be as "generous" as he, before remarking that in my personal experience, most retirees who don't think they've "earned" their government benefits are not going to be first in line to move in with their kids or be shuffled off to a nursing home so that the younger crowd pays less taxes.

No, what Republicans are going to do is say everyone over 55 gets to keep their SS and Medicare as is and everyone younger (by saying it that way they flatter 55 year old people who are not young heck no one is young over 30) will get the new system.

They will then sell this to the 55 (over 55 year old racists who will need govt assistance would feel safe to vote GOP) and under white man crowd by appealing to their racism. See, in the future all your tax money will be going to pay for minorities unlike the earlier generation which was white to white wealth transfer - if it's white to white wealth transfer it's alright! - so this new system will be great for whites (because we all know white guys are the super best kind and work and become millionaires just over the rainbow - and the only thing holding up white men from being even more awesome is all those minorities.

The GOP will use dog whistle words to say what I wrote above but that is exactly what they hope enough white people hear to change the election over to the GOP.

194 tomg51spence  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 8:01:43am

Each side now has their champion up.
Obama vs Ryan.
May it be a fair and decisive fight.
Popcorn!

195 Joanne  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 12:16:28pm

re: #193 Destro

Thats not going to work. When they put this out there a year ago, saying just that, seniors were livid. Most seniors care about their children and grand kids. Most aren't selfish sociopaths. There was quite the uprising which is why this went away so quickly. I'm shocked Romney picked Ryan for that reason as seniors have voted GOP pretty reliably. This is going to hurt them.

196 Destro  Mon, Aug 13, 2012 12:24:42pm

re: #195 Joanne (JustJay)

Thats not going to work. When they put this out there a year ago, saying just that, seniors were livid. Most seniors care about their children and grand kids. Most aren't selfish sociopaths. There was quite the uprising which is why this went away so quickly. I'm shocked Romney picked Ryan for that reason as seniors have voted GOP pretty reliably. This is going to hurt them.

I hope you are right and I think you are right. I am just wary.


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