Document: The Obama Administration’s Legal Rationale for Surveillance

Fewer than 300 “seed” queries in 2012
Politics • Views: 15,471

Here’s the document President Obama mentioned in his statement yesterday, detailing the administration’s legal rationale for surveillance efforts.

A fascinating section that shows the extremely limited scope of the analysis done on the massive amounts of metadata collected:

Thus, critically, although a large amount of metadata is consolidated and preserved by the Government, the vast majority of that information is never seen by any person. Only information responsive to the limited queries that are authorized for counterterrorism purposes is extracted and reviewed by analysts. Although the number of unique identifiers has varied substantially over the years, in 2012, fewer than 300 met the “reasonable, articulable suspicion” standard and were used as seeds to query the data after meeting the standard. Because the same seed identifier can be queried more than once over time, can generate multiple responsive records, and can be used to obtain contact numbers up to three “hops” from the seed identifier, the number of metadata records responsive to such queries is substantially larger than 300, but it is still a tiny fraction of the total volume of metadata records. It would be impossible to conduct these queries effectively without a large pool of telephony metadata to search, as there is no way to know in advance which numbers will be responsive to the authorized queries.

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140 comments
1 Kragar  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 3:57:42pm

Well, of course this is what they would say.
/The GG

2 Single-handed sailor  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 3:59:07pm

In other words. You can’t search a database that doesn’t exist.

3 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 4:03:51pm

They deleted the stalker’s comment, thank goodness.

news-releases.theurbanmusicscene.com

4 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 4:17:53pm

So this is both at once the reassuring news, but also the clear warning. This metadata has only been queried 300 times: the only thing stopping the abuse of it is the only thing stopping government abuse of any government power, which is court decisions and the response of the body politic. We’ve had administrations where domestic intelligence agencies completely ran amuck, we’ve had time where the FBI was strikebreaking, there’s been completely reprehensible abuse of government powers.

But it’s important to get outraged only at actual abuses, not capacity. The capacity— the vast hoard of metadata— can be seen as unwise, dangerous, and leaving a huge potential for future abuse, but it isn’t itself abuse. I firmly believe that stop and frisk, a program that’s affected millions of people, mostly young black men and young hispanic men, and has violated their rights, is much more important. That’s actual abuse.

The lack of protection from the police against financial crimes, against banks breaking the law, foreclosing on people without the proper paperwork— the number of cops who do financial crime above penny-anne bunko schemes is tiny. They mostly leave that up to the IRS, but they shouldn’t. That’s an abuse of rights the government is allowing to continue.

And most of all, of course, we’ve got our stupid-ass drug war, responsible for the vast majority of the shrinking of the 4th amendment.

So let’s keep our eyes on what’s really goddamn important. We can be concerned about the potential for abuse of programs like this without being outraged about potential abuse. Let’s at least be more outraged at actual abuse.

5 thedopefishlives  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 4:24:11pm

re: #4 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

I regret that I have but one upding to give this marvelous post.

6 Gus  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 4:37:25pm

re: #3 Charles Johnson

They deleted the stalker’s comment, thank goodness.

news-releases.theurbanmusicscene.com

Nope. Nothing wrong with those guys. Perfectly normal behavior. //

7 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 4:44:00pm

Here’s a bit more on the Arizona family that got lost at sea in an attempt to reach Kiribati:

She (Hannah Gastonguay) said they wanted to go to Kiribati because “we didn’t want to go anywhere big.” She said they understood the island to be “one of the least developed countries in the world.”

Hannah Gastonguay said her family was fed up with government control in the U.S. As Christians they don’t believe in “abortion, homosexuality, in the state-controlled church,” she said.

U.S. “churches aren’t their own,” Gastonguay said, suggesting that government regulation interfered with religious independence.

Among other differences, she said they had a problem with being “forced to pay these taxes that pay for abortions we don’t agree with.”

The Gastonguays weren’t members of any church, and Hannah Gastonguay said their faith came from reading the Bible and through prayer.

“The Bible is pretty clear,” she said.

“They were looking for a kind of adventure; they wanted to live on a Polynesian island but they didn’t have sufficient expertise to navigate adequately,” police prefect Jose Luis Lopez, who took the family’s statement at San Antonio, told the newspaper.

Hannah Gastonguay said the family will now “go back to Arizona” and “come up with a new plan.”

Hopefully, their new plan will involve commercial air travel.

abcnews.go.com

8 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 4:47:17pm

re: #6 Gus

Nope. Nothing wrong with those guys. Perfectly normal behavior. //

These are extremely sick people.

9 Political Atheist  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 4:49:36pm

re: #4 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

It’s fair to assume similar tech exists (or soon will) in quite a few nations. Again we will see how careful and responsible our democracy will be by comparison. A comparison that will remain quite unwelcome to the critics of the NSA and or Pres. Obama.

10 Gus  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 4:50:12pm
11 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 4:50:25pm

re: #7 Dr Lizardo

Man, did the reporter do a sucky job or did they really not ever think about or thank the tons of people involved in saving them? Was it really just God God God? That’d be amazingly selfish.

12 freetoken  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 4:50:43pm

re: #10 Gus

Always loved her voice.

13 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 4:51:50pm
14 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 4:51:56pm

re: #7 Dr Lizardo

And nothing will happen to those nutty people who are subjecting their children to their crazy-ass schemes, danger, and the fear, always, of living in a civilized society with people who might not think as they do.

15 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 4:52:23pm

re: #11 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Man, did the reporter do a sucky job or did they really not ever think about or thank the tons of people involved in saving them? Was it really just God God God? That’d be amazingly selfish.

I think the Gastonguays probably just reckoned that all the people involved in saving their hapless asses were all part of “God’s plan”.

They’re lucky they’re not having tea with Davey Jones.

16 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 4:52:24pm

re: #12 freetoken

Her husband Steve Lawrence added in his own statement: “Eydie has been my partner on stage and in life for more than 55 years. I fell in love with her the moment I saw her and even more the first time I heard her sing.”

Aw. That’s a hell of a long marriage for showbiz.

17 Gus  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 4:54:05pm

re: #12 freetoken

Always loved her voice.

Part of growing up.

re: #16 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Aw. That’s a hell of a long marriage for showbiz.

Gulp.

18 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 4:54:35pm

re: #14 Justanotherhuman

And nothing will happen to those nutty people who are subjecting their children to their crazy-ass schemes, danger, and the fear, always, of living in a civilized society with people who might not think as they do.

Probably not. Like I said on another thread downstairs, an investigation into child endangerment should be a possibility. But I doubt it’ll happen.

19 prairiefire  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 4:56:06pm

re: #10 Gus

[Embedded content]

That’s too bad. They were very fun to parody as the classic “lounge act”. They were the real dealz. Eydie’s gone to that smoky, dark lounge in the sky, RIP.

20 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 4:58:36pm

I’ll go find an Eydie Gormé song, but while I’m looking, enjoy this lovely Irish air.

Youtube Video

21 [deleted]  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 4:59:57pm
22 AntonSirius  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:01:38pm

Frankly I’m just as interested in knowing how many queries did not meet the “reasonable, articulable suspicion” standard… was every request just waved through, or is this an effective check?

EDIT: Actually it could still be an effective check if NSA analysts are well-trained and recognize the standard before submitting their query. But it would still be interesting to know how many queries got rejected.

23 freetoken  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:02:25pm

re: #20 wrenchwench

MP3 Audio

24 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:03:01pm

re: #21 stone

Um, no … that’s not what the document says. Not a “substantial proportion,” a tiny fraction.

Because the same seed identifier can be queried more than once over time, can generate multiple responsive records, and can be used to obtain contact numbers up to three “hops” from the seed identifier, the number of metadata records responsive to such queries is substantially larger than 300, but it is still a tiny fraction of the total volume of metadata records.

25 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:05:02pm

re: #23 freetoken

[Embedded content]

Classic.

Her she is past my bedtime (back then):

Youtube Video

26 AlexRogan  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:05:07pm

re: #21 stone

I don’t want to fear monger, but it would be interesting to know how much larger the set including everyone three-hops from these 300 seeds is. A well cited study of people’s connections on the internet suggests that everyone is just 4.7 hops removed from any given individual. I don’t know the math, but I would imagine that everyone within three-hops of these 300 targets is still a substantial proportion of the population. It seems like it would be useful to the debate to know more precisely what fraction of the population fall within these three-hops.

Bullshit.

Keep flogging that equine carcass.

27 Stanley Sea  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:05:52pm

re: #7 Dr Lizardo

Thanks for digging deeper.

28 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:08:09pm

re: #27 Stanley Sea

Thanks for digging deeper.

It’s a weird story, but given how utterly deranged the RW’ers have become over the last few years, I really can’t say I’m shocked. Thankfully, they weren’t killed, and hopefully they’ll have learned something about harebrained schemes.

The RW derangement is even worse then it was during the Clinton years, and I thought that was pretty heavy.

29 [deleted]  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:08:34pm
30 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:09:05pm

re: #13 Charles Johnson

He married David Fairchilds daughter. If you want some AWESOME adventure reading, google David Fairchild. He started Florida’s Fairchild Botanic Gardens.

31 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:10:51pm

re: #29 stone

I know that’s what it says. My concern is that what the NSA considers a tiny fraction the public might consider a substantial proportion.

Please. They explained the three hops rule very clearly because it’s obviously not possible to predict exactly how many pieces of metadata might fall within that criteria. But starting with a seed base of fewer than 300, this would get nowhere near a “substantial proportion of the population” even if every seed used the maximum number of hops. That’s an absurd statement.

32 bratwurst  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:11:19pm

re: #7 Dr Lizardo

Here’s a bit more on the Arizona family that got lost at sea in an attempt to reach Kiribati:

U.S. “churches aren’t their own,” Gastonguay said, suggesting that government regulation interfered with religious independence.

The Gastonguays weren’t members of any church, and Hannah Gastonguay said their faith came from reading the Bible and through prayer.

So they weren’t actually church members, but just knew there wasn’t a single church anywhere in northern Arizona up to their standards.

33 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:13:36pm

re: #32 bratwurst

So they weren’t actually church members, but just knew there wasn’t a single church anywhere in northern Arizona up to their standards.

Yes, apparently no church anywhere in northern Arizona was up to their exacting standards of being “free from government interference”.

Hardcore fundies; I’ve encountered people like this before up in the Pacific Northwest as well.

34 Romantic Heretic  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:13:53pm

re: #28 Dr Lizardo

Thankfully, they weren’t killed, and hopefully they’ll have learned something about harebrained schemes.

They won’t. One of surest signs of ideological insanity is never, ever learning from your mistakes.

35 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:15:02pm

re: #34 Romantic Heretic

They won’t. One of surest signs of ideological insanity is never, ever learning from your mistakes.

Heh. I can’t help but wonder what their next “great escape” plan will be?

36 Political Atheist  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:15:07pm

Going OT to take a swipe at the wingnuts. We hear them bitch and whine and concern troll about money each and every Presidential vacation.

As Damaging Sequester Continues, Congress Goes on 5-Week Vacation
Paged

37 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:16:18pm

re: #36 Political Atheist

Going OT to take a swipe at the wingnuts. We hear them bitch and whine and concern troll about money each and every Presidential vacation.

As Damaging Sequester Continues, Congress Goes on 5-Week Vacation
Paged

BUT THAT’S TOTALLY DIFFERENT BECAUSE WHITE PEOPLE.

38 Bubblehead II  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:17:21pm

Looks in. Laughs at the ignorance. Tell me, do any of you seriously think the Government WASN’T looking in by any means that they could?

If so, you are an IDIOT

Buy a scanner. Listen to the 27 mhz and 49 mhz bands. You know those handy baby monitors and wireless phones? Not to mention those wireless video cameras (additional equipment required). And that is just a scratch on the surface.

We bug our selves on a daily basis and then bitch when the Government ( and others) take advantage of it.

But, then again, maybe I am just a paranoid Glenn Beck Freakazoid.

Don’t think I am.

39 Interesting Times  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:18:05pm

re: #35 Dr Lizardo

Heh. I can’t help but wonder what their next “great escape” plan will be?

Hopefully one that won’t get their children killed.

40 [deleted]  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:20:23pm
41 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:21:02pm

re: #21 stone

I don’t want to fear monger, but it would be interesting to know how much larger the set including everyone three-hops from these 300 seeds is. A well cited study of people’s connections on the internet suggests that everyone is just 4.7 hops removed from any given individual. I don’t know the math, but I would imagine that everyone within three-hops of these 300 targets is still a substantial proportion of the population. It seems like it would be useful to the debate to know more precisely what fraction of the population fall within these three-hops.

It basically depends on how one defines a hop. 300**3 is 27 million, less than 1/10th of the US population. Your cited 4.7 hop number is for all internet traffic and includes highly trafficked websites. So the question is am I one hop away from every single visiter to Fark and the New York Times or are hops in this context the people I’ve directly called, been called by, or had email conversations with in the last year?

42 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:22:52pm

Here we go again.

43 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:25:37pm

re: #41 goddamnedfrank

I keep forgetting you were on Fark too.

Do you remember the name of the weirdo global warming denying ayn rand loving probably-sadly-not-a-troll? Kind of a pompous old cranky weirdo named like weenut92?

44 Pavlovian Hive Mind  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:26:00pm

I’m tired of GG supporters not understanding the sheer amount of data involved and the impracticality of monitoring it all.

45 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:27:41pm

re: #40 stone

When they go on a ‘hop’, though, they go through the same winnowing process. A guy you emailed once isn’t going to make it into the pool. You’re ignoring the actual process.

46 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:27:50pm

This post certainly beats the hot air that’s been emanating from Brazil, the UK, and Russia over the past several weeks.

There’s no way on earth there is enough equipment or personnel for the NSA to pull up everyone’s individual phone calls or emails, or to monitor the Internet, even domestically, without breaking the Treasury. They’re looking for specific threats, and they know what they’re looking for.

It would mean everyone spies on everyone else, and that’s not happening.

It makes more sense that they are looking for specifics of terroristic activities, and not interested in what kind of political opinions I might have. And even most domestic threats made on social media, for instance, aren’t caught by the NSA—they’re caught by individuals who report them, such as the many blatantly violent ones against the President, handled by the Secret Service, and against other elected officials.

47 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:28:27pm

re: #44 Varek Raith

I’m tired of GG supporters not understanding the sheer amount of data involved and the impracticality of monitoring it all.

Or the actual scandal is the NSA has built quantum computers/developed a real RNG/solved the natural language problem.

48 Stanley Sea  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:30:04pm

Phew

49 Bubblehead II  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:30:08pm

re: #42 Charles Johnson

Here we go again.

Me or Stone? I know my latent Survivalist tendencies / posts sometimes generate negative vibes amongst the Lizard Nation. This is not my intention.

50 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:30:21pm

re: #45 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

When they go on a ‘hop’, though, they go through the same winnowing process. A guy you emailed once isn’t going to make it into the pool. You’re ignoring the actual process.

You beat me to it - that’s exactly right. The three hops rule isn’t a blanket exemption from the screening procedures. The same minimization rules apply.

51 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:32:06pm

re: #43 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

I keep forgetting you were on Fark too.

Do you remember the name of the weirdo global warming denying ayn rand loving probably-sadly-not-a-troll? Kind of a pompous old cranky weirdo named like weenut92?

LOL, yes, Weaver95. I don’t go there often but he’s still there, seems to have moderated somewhat, or at least came part way out of the ultraconservative bubble.

52 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:32:20pm

re: #48 Stanley Sea

Poor girl. She’s the only one left living because her mother and brother are both dead by that criminal’s hand. She’s going to need a lot of therapy and love and I hope she gets it.

53 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:34:10pm

Steve and Eydie.


Youtube Video

54 [deleted]  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:35:49pm
55 Decatur Deb  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:36:27pm

“A fascinating section that shows the extremely limited scope of the analysis done on the massive amounts of metadata collected:”


Cause we really don’t give a shit about your World of Warcraft build.
Thanks anyways,
NSA

56 AntonSirius  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:36:50pm

re: #38 Bubblehead II

Tell me, do any of you seriously think the Government WASN’T looking in by any means that they could?

I’m sure the NSA is as riveted by this Reds-Padres game as I am. Given that they are pure evil though, they’re probably going to activate the guidance system hidden in every Rawlings baseball so that Tyson Ross gets roughed up, just to spite my fantasy team.

Those bastards! (shakes fist)

57 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:38:24pm

re: #51 goddamnedfrank

That’s it. He was like my first introduction to how smart people on the internet were very often completely unable to self-criticize. He seemed honestly shocked when I said that I considered Ayn Rand intellectually negligible, and said I must not have actually read the books because everyone who reads her knows, even if they disagree with her, that she’s a deep deep thinker.

It was like a steam-driven No True Scotsman, a beautiful bit of internet logic. Go read Atlas Shrugged, and if you say you did and it sucked then you didn’t so go read Atlas Shrugged.

58 Targetpractice  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:39:14pm

re: #54 stone

That’s probably right. I thought 50 contacts was a pretty conservative number, but whatever. The point is just that the number of people covered is much larger than 300, and without more precise data I’m not sure we can make an informed decision whether the number is something we should be comfortable with or not.

You’ll excuse me, but this is now starting to get into “negotiating the price” territory. You’re comfortable with “spying” if it’s below a certain segment of the overall US population?

59 Gus  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:39:24pm

re: #49 Bubblehead II

Me or Stone? I know my latent Survivalist tendencies / posts sometimes generate negative vibes amongst the Lizard Nation. This is not my intention.

Stone.

60 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:39:31pm

re: #54 stone

That’s probably right. I thought 50 contacts was a pretty conservative number, but whatever. The point is just that the number of people covered is much larger than 300, and without more precise data I’m not sure we can make an informed decision whether the number is something we should be comfortable with or not.

Honestly, really honestly, how much time have you spent over the past year talking about other 4th amendment violations, and which ones?

61 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:40:10pm

re: #60 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Honestly, really honestly, how much time have you spent over the past year talking about other 4th amendment violations, and which ones?

You mean real ones?

62 Stanley Sea  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:40:41pm

Admittedly, I’m not paying too much attention to this, so forgive my ignorance. But basically like Bubblehead, I’ve felt since the beginning of social media that everything is out there already and we are nit-picking about the what if’s - is the gov looking at this stuff? Probably, it’s out there.

I’m more concerned with the non-adversarial aspect of the zeroing in on someone. Was that addressed in Obama’s speech?

63 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:41:51pm

It’s a shark-eat-shark world.

Coming soon on Syfy: “Return of the Cannibal Sharknado!”

64 Pavlovian Hive Mind  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:42:35pm

re: #63 Charles Johnson

It’s a shark-eat-shark world.

Coming soon on Syfy: “Return of the Cannibal Sharknado!”

imdb.com

65 Bubblehead II  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:43:11pm

re: #56 AntonSirius

I’m sure the NSA is as riveted by this Reds-Padres game as I am. Given that they are pure evil though, they’re probably going to activate the guidance system hidden in every Rawlings baseball so that Tyson Ross gets roughed up, just to spite my fantasy team.

Those bastards! (shakes fist)

And you missed the point. Want me to make it clear to you?

66 Decatur Deb  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:43:46pm

re: #63 Charles Johnson

It’s a shark-eat-shark world.

Coming soon on Syfy: “Return of the Cannibal Sharknado!”

It gets worse: A channel showed footage of some species executing in utero cannibalism.

67 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:43:53pm

re: #62 Stanley Sea

Admittedly, I’m not paying too much attention to this, so forgive my ignorance. But basically like Bubblehead, I’ve felt since the beginning of social media that everything is out there already and we are nit-picking about the what if’s - is the gov looking at this stuff? Probably, it’s out there.

I’m more concerned with the non-adversarial aspect of the zeroing in on someone. Was that addressed in Obama’s speech?

Yes, it was one of his main points.

…while I’ve got confidence in the court and I think they’ve done a fine job, I think we can provide greater assurances that the court is looking at these issues from both perspectives — security and privacy. So specifically, we can take steps to make sure civil liberties concerns have an independent voice, in appropriate cases, by ensuring that the government’s position is challenged by an adversary.

68 Stanley Sea  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:47:58pm

re: #67 Charles Johnson

Yes, it was one of his main points.

Good and exactly.

69 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:50:10pm

re: #68 Stanley Sea

Good and exactly.

Here’s a full transcript of the press conference:

washingtonpost.com

70 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:54:57pm

re: #64 Varek Raith

imdb.com

“Ghost Shark”?

Sounds stupid, even too stupid for The Asylum.

I say, bring back Megashark!!

Youtube Video

71 Pavlovian Hive Mind  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:56:12pm

MegaGhostSharknadoesOnAPlane!

72 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:57:15pm

And yes, in case you missed it..
It’s shark week!

73 [deleted]  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:57:17pm
74 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:58:11pm

re: #73 stone

Do you also disagree with pen registers?

75 Stanley Sea  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 5:58:59pm

re: #69 Charles Johnson

Here’s a full transcript of the press conference:

washingtonpost.com

Thanks, he covered it succinctly.

You know, I do question my objections under Bush compared to my objections under Obama. Yes, I am not objecting like I did before. Maybe becuase I’ve matured…..or maybe because I trust President Obama. I did not trust W. Not with Cheney whispering in his ear, and definitely not with the lies that got us to Iraq. Lies that were clear in 2003.

76 [deleted]  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 6:00:31pm
77 AlexRogan  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 6:01:41pm

re: #73 stone

Yes. I recognize that it serves a security purpose, but I don’t that significant numbers of innocent US citizens should be subject to surveillance.

So you’re OK with “the government” spying on some people, just as long as it’s not you, your family, or your friends, am I right?

Gotcha…

78 BeenHereAwhile  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 6:01:41pm

re: #66 Decatur Deb

re: #63 Charles Johnson

It’s a shark-eat-shark world.

Coming soon on Syfy: “Return of the Cannibal Sharknado!”

“It gets worse: A channel showed footage of some species executing in utero cannibalism.”

Sand Tiger Sharks.

Brings a whole new meaning to
“live birth.”

79 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 6:04:17pm

re: #76 stone

The federal crackdown on legal marijuana cultivation is a 4th amendment issue that I spend significant time on. I have very strong opinions about stop & frisk, though I am not active in that conversation.

Why not? There have been five million people stopped in NYC by stop and frisk. That’s five million people actually harmed, actually stopped on the street and frisked. It is a clearly racist policy. It is doing actual harm.

Why is this more important to you, the potential harm of this program? Why did this strike a nerve? Is it because, unlike stop and frisk, this could affect you, or is there another reason?

80 [deleted]  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 6:04:21pm
81 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 6:05:08pm

re: #76 stone

The federal crackdown on legal marijuana cultivation is a 4th amendment issue that I spend significant time on. I have very strong opinions about stop & frisk, though I am not active in that conversation.

There is no federally legal marijuana cultivation.

82 [deleted]  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 6:05:51pm
83 Pavlovian Hive Mind  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 6:05:56pm

Oy.

84 Decatur Deb  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 6:06:52pm

See, there was this security flaw in cuneiform. Seems as soon as the tablet dried, any old illiterate Akkadian slave could press a blob of mud on it and scamper over the wall to Wedgieleaks.

85 [deleted]  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 6:07:22pm
86 Pavlovian Hive Mind  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 6:07:57pm

re: #84 Decatur Deb

See, there was this security flaw in cuneiform. Seems as soon as the tablet dried, any old illiterate Akkadian slave could press a blob of mud on it and scamper over the wall to Wedgieleaks.

Drugs are bad, mmmkay?
/

87 Decatur Deb  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 6:08:35pm

re: #86 Varek Raith

Drugs are bad, mmmkay?
/

Nyquil is my friend.

88 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 6:10:27pm

re: #85 stone

Man, I agree that it’s a very important issue. There’s lots of things that I think are important that I can’t participate in though. I’m sure the same is true of you, no?

I’m sorry, what’s stopped you from talking about stop and frisk?

89 Targetpractice  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 6:10:43pm

re: #73 stone

Yes. I recognize that it serves a security purpose, but I don’t that significant numbers of innocent US citizens should be subject to surveillance.

And what constitutes “significant.” See, this is my point, you’re now haggling over where you draw the line before it becomes wrong to look through a person’s metadata.

90 Gus  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 6:10:51pm
91 Pavlovian Hive Mind  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 6:11:53pm

re: #90 Gus

[Embedded content]

Guess Reince will boycott them too.
/

92 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 6:12:39pm

re: #82 stone

No, but there is legal cultivation on the state level.

That’s why the crackdown is not from the state.

93 AlexRogan  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 6:12:57pm

re: #90 Gus

[Embedded content]

Given Fox News’ reputation, I expect nothing more than a total and complete hatchet job with this.

94 [deleted]  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 6:12:59pm
95 Pavlovian Hive Mind  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 6:13:37pm

re: #94 stone

Are you a libertarian?

96 Gus  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 6:14:06pm

re: #93 AlexRogan

Given Fox News’ reputation, I expect nothing more than a total and complete hatchet job with this.

Not Fox News but Fox Television Studios. To produce.

97 [deleted]  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 6:15:13pm
98 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 6:16:37pm

re: #97 stone

Nothing “obvious” about you, except trolling…

99 Pavlovian Hive Mind  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 6:16:41pm

re: #97 stone

No, I’m not politically a libertarian. Obviously, I believe that civil liberties are a worthy cause though.

The reason I asked is because libertarians tend to only care about civil liberties when it affects them. If it doesn’t, they don’t seem to care about said civil liberties.

100 bratwurst  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 6:17:01pm

re: #97 stone

No, I’m not politically a libertarian. Obviously I believe that civil liberties are a worthy cause though.

As opposed to the majority here who HATE civil liberties. /

101 Pavlovian Hive Mind  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 6:17:38pm

re: #100 bratwurst

As opposed to the majority here who HATE civil liberties. /

Get off my internet!

102 BeenHereAwhile  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 6:17:54pm

re: #79 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Why not? There have been five million people stopped in NYC by stop and frisk. That’s five million people actually harmed, actually stopped on the street and frisked. It is a clearly racist policy. It is doing actual harm.

Pls explain, why is this different than a Terry Stop?

103 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 6:18:03pm
104 AlexRogan  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 6:18:42pm

re: #94 stone

Only the finite amount of time and energy that I have. And yes, I should probably stop wasting my time justifying myself to you.

I’ve got a pretty good guess or two why you apparently lack the energy to have discussions about the NYPD’s stop-and-frisk policy, which has been shown to adversely affect thousands of melanin-enriched people.

105 [deleted]  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 6:19:40pm
106 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 6:20:54pm

re: #90 Gus

Fox May Produce Clinton Biopic

Obvious media kung fu is obvious.

107 AlexRogan  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 6:20:57pm

re: #96 Gus

Not Fox News but Fox Television Studios. To produce.

Gahhh…read right over that. Still though, I don’t expect anywhere near an unbiased take on this subject from any division in the Murdoch empire.

108 Decatur Deb  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 6:23:55pm

The Nyquil demon has taken me. ‘Nite, All

109 Pavlovian Hive Mind  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 6:24:46pm

re: #108 Decatur Deb

The Nyquil demon has taken me. ‘Nite, All

Do not operate heavy machinery.
;)

110 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 6:27:16pm
111 Belafon  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 6:27:17pm

re: #66 Decatur Deb: If I remember correctly, that was the tiger shark.

112 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 6:27:53pm

re: #102 BeenHereAwhile

Pls explain, why is this different than a Terry Stop?

It’s grotesquely abused. Terry requires a reasonable, articulable suspicion, it doesn’t allow police to stop a person “for being a fucking mutt.”

Also, even under Terry, quotas are illegal.

A top Bronx cop was caught on tape telling an NYPD whistleblower to specifically target “male blacks 14 to 21” for stop-and-frisk because they commit crimes.
Stop “the right people, the right time, the right location,” Deputy Inspector Christopher McCormack is heard saying on the recording.

“He meant blacks and Hispanics,” Officer Pedro Serrano, who made the secret recording, testified Thursday in Manhattan federal court.

“So what am I supposed to do: Stop every black and Hispanic?” Serrano was heard saying on the tape, which was recorded last month at the 40th Precinct in the Bronx.

McCormack said to focus on the Mott Haven section, where the problem “was robberies and grand larcenies.”

“I have no problem telling you this,” the inspector said on the tape. “Male blacks. And I told you at roll call, and I have no problem [to] tell you this, male blacks 14 to 21.”

This isn’t reasonable suspicion, it’s racial profiling and a blatant violation of the equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment. Terry doesn’t make that okay.

113 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 6:29:52pm

Am I the only one who’s not scared by the NSA? I’ve been arrested for protesting, been in a political group in which we discovered a police informant, and I engaged in political activity against govt policies. I both met and interacted with some pretty radical types, politically, including many civil rights workers.

The arrest was thrown out for violation of my 1st Amendment rights, and none of my political activity was ever violent, nor was anyone with whom I ever worked. We all thought the FBI had dossiers on us, but I was never questioned once or “visited”, a “small fish”.

Even though it’s a far more dangerous world these days, I have more fear of the local cops stopping me for some perceived traffic violation than the NSA peeking at my emails or listening to my phone calls. I don’t think the govt really cares what petitions I sign or what non-violent political activities I engage in.

Yes, I understand why some people think differently, but what would they propose, other than more transparency and oversight of the NSA’s activities? I think Pres Obama got the wheels turning on that, earlier than most people think, but in the end, it is up to Congress, which makes the laws, to minimize the damage to ordinary people and to come up with that transparency and oversight. What has been built up over the years will not be fixed overnight. And there are still those who would perpetrate another 9/11, Oklahoma City, or worse, if they could get away with it.

If you hate govt, hate this country, you would want to dismantle the NSA. If you think the govt is supposed to be us, represented by those we elect, then you want to make the fixes that assure our essential freedoms in every area of our lives, including our protection from those who would cause harm and destruction.

Absolute privacy is never guaranteed. Ask any woman who is fighting against the slow erosion, or complete overturn, of Roe v Wade, or those whose voting rights are slowly being eroded, or minorities who are still “profiled” just because of who they are.

114 Gus  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 6:31:53pm

What’s my Line? Eydie Gormé

Youtube Video

115 Decatur Deb  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 6:34:01pm

re: #113 Justanotherhuman

Had to log back in to upding that.

116 Pavlovian Hive Mind  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 6:35:00pm

re: #110 Charles Johnson

[Embedded content]

Unnerving.

117 AlexRogan  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 6:38:00pm

re: #105 stone

You’re wrong.

Am I now? You can prove me wrong by making a contribution to the conversation about the subject, something with as much verve as your arguments against the NSA’s data collection policies.

118 b_sharp  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 6:43:14pm

re: #108 Decatur Deb

The Nyquil demon has taken me. ‘Nite, All

Demons never bother me. It’s the daemons that do.

119 b_sharp  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 6:48:42pm

Well that was an interesting day. I drove 2 hours out to a site, worked for 5 hours then drove back. In the end, I had to set everything I worked on back to its original state.

I should have known the day was going the wrong way from the time I waited out front of Staples at 8:00 just to find out 15min later it doesn’t open til 9:00 on Saturdays. and the lady with the keys for the office was an hour and a half late cause I forgot to get her phone number.

120 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 6:48:58pm

re: #118 b_sharp

Demons never bother me. It’s the daemons that do.

Damon (Johnny) bothered me when he jumped ship from Boston Red Sox to the the NY Yankees

121 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 6:49:56pm

re: #119 b_sharp

I drove 2 hours out to a site, worked for 5 hours then drove back.
Sounds like many of my days ,,,, cept the “worked for 5 hours” is usually over double that !!!!

122 Gus  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 6:50:01pm
123 b_sharp  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 6:51:19pm

re: #121 sattv4u2

I drove 2 hours out to a site, worked for 5 hours then drove back.
Sounds like many of my days ,,,, cept the “worked for 5 hours” is usually over double that !!!!

It wasn’t the length of time that was the problem it was the not accomplishing anything.

124 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 6:51:20pm

I think part of the reason NSA data gathering captures people’s interest is because of the overwhelming idealism that’s surrounded internet culture since its inception. Nobody has idealistic notions about New York City, nobody’s surprised that cops there treat young black men like shit, that’s expected. People have held adamant ideas about this “new frontier,” pie in the sky notions about internet freedom, shared software and an open, uncensored, game changing, worldwide communications network since before Berners-Lee invented the world wide web.

When the NSA accesses all the information that people freely gave to international telecoms to be shared with massive marketing conglomerates, certain people act all surprised and indignant. Their expectations are so out of line with reality, and especially with the EULA’s they clicked through without reading, that they’re genuinely shocked. They shouldn’t be, but they are. It’s unreasonable to react blithely to New York City cops violating young black men left and right, while acting all surprised that voluntarily surrendered electronic metadata can be examined by the government.

125 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 6:53:11pm

re: #123 b_sharp

It wasn’t the length of time that was the problem it was the not accomplishing anything.

According to my boss, ESPECIALLY at mid and year end review times, sounds more and more like many of my days!!!

/

126 BeenHereAwhile  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 6:54:05pm

re: #112 goddamnedfrank

re: #102 BeenHereAwhile

Pls explain, why is this different than a Terry Stop?

“It’s grotesquely abused. Terry requires a reasonable, articulable suspicion, it doesn’t allow police to stop a person ‘for being a fucking mutt.’

Also, even under Terry, quotas are illegal.

It’s racial profiling and a blatant violation of the equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment. Terry doesn’t make that okay.”

Well put and in no way do I disagree with you.

The problem, that I see, is convincing a municipal, state, or federal judge that the LEO’s use of multiple “Terry Stops” as cover for their activities are not legal.

127 [deleted]  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 6:57:22pm
128 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 7:05:05pm

and on that note, the long quiet drive home beckons

129 BeenHereAwhile  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 7:09:35pm

Supposed to be a in the middle of my last post.

Let’s see if HTML 5(?) displays , (snip) or [snip].

130 AlexRogan  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 7:14:59pm

re: #127 stone

Do you mean by writing a comment here explaining why I think stop and frisk is a bad policy? That’s what it would take to convince you that I’m not a racist? Please tell me that you’re joking.

If you want to think that I was calling you a racist, that’s all on you, but the gist of what I was getting at that it seemed to me that you avoid the subject, not because it takes away from your “finite amount of time and energy”, but because it involves a bunch of people that you don’t know in a place you’re likely nowhere near and never will be with a police department that has a long track record of shit like this.

It’s just not something that seems to be on your “give-a-fuck” meter, Mr. Fourth Amendment; otherwise, I’d think you’d be all over it.

131 [deleted]  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 7:25:52pm
132 sagehen  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 7:45:40pm

re: #52 Justanotherhuman

Poor girl. She’s the only one left living because her mother and brother are both dead by that criminal’s hand. She’s going to need a lot of therapy and love and I hope she gets it.

And the house is burned down, with everything in it. She doesn’t have her baby blanket, school art projects, her teddy bear, her favorite t-shirt, not even photos.

133 Ming  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 8:18:36pm

re: #7 Dr Lizardo

U.S. “churches aren’t their own,” Gastonguay said, suggesting that government regulation interfered with religious independence.

re: #32 bratwurst

So they weren’t actually church members, but just knew there wasn’t a single church anywhere in northern Arizona up to their standards.

From the ABC News story, “Their flights home were arranged by U.S. Embassy officials.”

I wonder if they think that’s “government interference”.

These people were “lost at sea” a long time before they left Arizona.

134 piratedan  Sat, Aug 10, 2013 11:52:04pm

timeline pondering here…..

OK, the patriot act is passed on the heels of 9/11. At the time there was a significant cry from the left (and a fair number of centrists as well) that this was giving the NSA too much power and that was shouted down by the R and the blue dogs who responded “terrorism! Protect Us!” etc etc etc

Then the Bushies leave the law as is for their entire term and no one says jack shit about it because we’re fighting AQ and you’d be labelled as unpatriotic if you started getting uppity about your civil liberties because otherwise the terrorists win….

The Bushies then for the most part piss on the intelligence agencies for the next six years, using their data when it meets their worldview, ignoring it if it doesn’t (i.e. OBL isn’t important anymore, Saddam is)

Then the new sheriff arrives and in that one narrow period after Franken gets seated and before Kennedy dies, we see Lily Ledbetter, ACA, the stimulus and even some (at the time) reforms to the Patriot act that added oversight to a blank slate situation. Obama refocuses on AQ and starts getting our asses out of Iraq.

Then the midterms happen and we have had pretty much everything stymied by scorched earth Mitch and the President having to perform damage control against his own Congress with the Tea Party Clown Car Caucus and the GOP leadership lying to their own members in order to prevent any compromise from taking place, more than willing to burn the house down with the entire family inside it in hopes of getting the new sheriff blamed instead of them for defunding the fire department.

I really don’t have a problem with the NSA gathering data, it’s what they do. I expect our government to use any and all means possible to keeping the country and its interests safe. I understand the right to and the need for privacy, but if you want to be private, then you need to turn off your cell phone and turn it in, also, don’t bother hooking your computer up to the web. Also too, don’t get a car with a GPS and don’t get any credit card or bank card of any kind. Then you can enjoy the fruits of your private life.

Everyone seems to forget compromise and context are important, if the NSA stumbles across a child porn ring or human trafficking, do you want them alerting another agency? What constitutes a major crime worth passing along? Or is the mandate specific enough to ensure that we’re only looking at terrorism threats? What happens if our transparency shows that someone knew about 12 year old kids were being targeted for child porn, you think the affected parents are going to rest easier that their kid was abused to secure the offender’s civil liberties? How is that any less likely than some of the scenarios dreamed up by the folks so quick to allege government abuses?

I guess what I am saying is that this needs more scrutiny and I believe that the guy in charge is sincere in trying to provide it, it’s just that I am dubious about where the conversation is actually going to go, knowing who is supposedly framing the questions and who is in charge of getting any such changes for the better through the legislative process considering the current makeup of our Congress without there being a further attempt to allow vaginal ultrasound probing, defunding ACORN and a repeal of the ACA tacked onto any changes that get brought for consideration.

135 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Aug 11, 2013 4:22:43am

I moved this.

136 FollowtheDough  Sun, Aug 11, 2013 8:38:25am

re: #46 Justanotherhuman

About this comment:

“Am I the only one who’s not scared by the NSA? I’ve been arrested for protesting, been in a political group in which we discovered a police informant, and I engaged in political activity against govt policies. I both met and interacted with some pretty radical types, politically, including many civil rights workers”

We are still in the early stages what a security state on steroids can do. The reasoning for a increasing security in our nation is weak tea,imo. A Jack Bauer-esque delusion brought on by a heavy doseage of political propaganda. I notice some democrats are swayed toward this obvious charlatan salesmanship of National Security. The talking points sound relatively similiar to a synopsis of Brad Thor novel. That is not only hilariously pathetic but

What is next? That is what we should be concerned about. I see no overreacting for a security state that has manipulated our fears & emotions countless times. The question you have to ask yourself is, how much are you willing to buy? Because I assure you every administration has plenty of jalopies in the back for you to wheel off & none of them are really worth investing anything into them.

A lot of the War on Terror reminds me of deceptive carnival games. I’m just not buying any of the diet-Tom Ridge fantasies. It is a sad day when I see democrats transforming into caricatures out of a Brad Thor novel just for political agenda.

137 FollowtheDough  Sun, Aug 11, 2013 8:53:44am

I have to say it is revealing to see the phantoms of Russia paranoia enter back into our cultural psyche in media. To be brutally honest, I am more fearful of a nation that constantly has to drag out a “ideological boogie man” in order of acceptance to lead us more to an authoritarian state.

I am more terrified of Shadow People than I am of Foreign threats overseas. Shadow people have red eyes, oh wait, could they be? Where’s my Eagle Defense Iphone cover? “Freedom isn’t free it costs a buck o five”

Youtube Video

138 FollowtheDough  Sun, Aug 11, 2013 9:22:31am

re: #124 goddamnedfrank

I think part of the reason NSA data gathering captures people’s interest is because of the overwhelming idealism that’s surrounded internet culture since its inception. Nobody has idealistic notions about New York City, nobody’s surprised that cops there treat young black men like shit, that’s expected. People have held adamant ideas about this “new frontier,” pie in the sky notions about internet freedom, shared software and an open, uncensored, game changing, worldwide communications network since before Berners-Lee invented the world wide web.

When the NSA accesses all the information that people freely gave to international telecoms to be shared with massive marketing conglomerates, certain people act all surprised and indignant. Their expectations are so out of line with reality, and especially with the EULA’s they clicked through without reading, that they’re genuinely shocked. They shouldn’t be, but they are. It’s unreasonable to react blithely to New York City cops violating young black men left and right, while acting all surprised that voluntarily surrendered electronic metadata can be examined by the government.

The talking points of the NSA are horribly god awful. This agency deserves intense criticism. It will not end well if all the N.S.A. can do is fear monger about potential threats w/ the probability of someone getting struck by lightning. But I have to hand it to anyone gaining traffic/ media influence from this, it is quite the little cottage industry. The right wing has been doing it for years, why not democrats? Makes sense.

But I love percentages, because they really do reveal how much anyone should give a shit about the issue of threats.

1 in 20 million odds of dying in terrorist attack. And we should give them more freedom to do anything? That’s a negative,chief.

139 Charles Johnson  Sun, Aug 11, 2013 10:19:32am

Libertarianism poisons everything.

140 Carlos Diggler  Sun, Aug 11, 2013 10:28:39am

It’s the intellectual foundation for conservatism. I used to think they were somewhat concurrent philosophies, they aren’t.


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