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1 Kragar  Tue, Sep 17, 2013 10:56:34am

The fact the UN found something means the GOP will rail against the report.

2 Targetpractice  Tue, Sep 17, 2013 10:59:26am

The Cliff Notes version, as I’ve heard it, is that there are not only zero doubts that chemical weapons were used, but that the means by which the rebels could have acted out these attacks are virtually impossible. Triangulation of the launch sites indicate they are in loyalist territory, that they utilized weapons that would be time-consuming to use and hard as hell not to see or hear in operation, and would have (most importantly) required the rebels to have a level of training and experience that nobody has been able to find evidence of in their ranks.

At this point, the idea that the rebels were responsible should be something confined to the realm of conspiracy theory.

3 Charles Johnson  Tue, Sep 17, 2013 11:00:21am

Please note, Pages authors - you can now edit your posts after they’re promoted to the front page.

4 Kragar  Tue, Sep 17, 2013 11:01:18am

re: #2 Targetpractice

At this point, the idea that the rebels were responsible should be something confined to the realm of conspiracy theory.

So, in other words, it will remain to be a key Tea Party talking point.

5 Bulworth  Tue, Sep 17, 2013 11:01:46am

Can’t wait to see the Moonbat reaction to this.

6 Targetpractice  Tue, Sep 17, 2013 11:03:27am

re: #4 Kragar

So, in other words, it will remain to be a key Tea Party talking point.

The Tea Party seems to be settling around the “Obama lost to Putin!” bit.

7 Bulworth  Tue, Sep 17, 2013 11:03:30am

re: #2 Targetpractice

The Cliff Notes version, as I’ve heard it, is that there are not only zero doubts that chemical weapons were used, but that the means by which the rebels could have acted out these attacks are virtually impossible. Triangulation of the launch sites indicate they are in loyalist territory,

False Flag!!!

8 lawhawk  Tue, Sep 17, 2013 11:04:00am

Takeaways:

Witnesses were interviewed. Those who were injured and interviewed showed symptoms of organophosphate intoxication. Some CW, including sarin and VX, are organophosphates.

Lab tests of environmental materials recovered from the scene of the attacks came back positive for sarin.

Munitions used in the attack were recovered and tested. the majority of fragments tested showed the presence of sarin. The munitions used were part of surface to surface rocket systems.

34 of 36 patients who had lab work drawn showed exposure to sarin.

That would conclusively identify that sarin was used in the attacks this past August.

Some of the evidence had been moved prior to inspection - including munitions, but the identification of the materials is without a doubt based on markings.

But all evidence points to the regime using these weapons even though the regime itself is not named.

9 Bulworth  Tue, Sep 17, 2013 11:04:04am

re: #4 Kragar

That’s because the teabag party really loves America and all the rest of us don’t. //

10 thecommodore  Tue, Sep 17, 2013 11:06:09am

I BET THAT’S A FORGERY THEY SHOULD GET THE CERTIFIED COURT EXPERT WHO TESTIFIED THAT OBAMA’S BIRTH CERTIFICATE IS A FORGERY THEN THIS WHOLE MUNICH STYLE CHARADE WOULD BE EXPOSED OBAMA IS USING THIS AS AN EXCUSE TO SEND AID TO AL QAEDA I BET HE DECLARES MARTIAL LAW!!!!!!11TY

11 blueraven  Tue, Sep 17, 2013 11:06:12am

re: #3 Charles Johnson

Please note, Pages authors - you can now edit your posts after they’re promoted to the front page.

Thanks for the promo Charles!

Wonderful to be able to edit. I am sure this is a great time saver for you as well. I have nothing to add at this time as I know the crew here are some of the best at getting to the gist of these rather technical reports.

12 Charles Johnson  Tue, Sep 17, 2013 11:09:00am
13 kerFuFFler  Tue, Sep 17, 2013 11:09:43am

re: #6 Targetpractice

The Tea Party seems to be settling around the “Obama lost to Putin!” bit.

To be scandalized that Putin has influence in Syria is beyond stupid. Getting Russian support to put pressure on Assad does not make Obama look weak any more than getting China to lean on North Korea does. One must use every possible bit of leverage available. And frankly, it is best that the US not be doing so many things unilaterally or we’ll just come off as bullies.

Oh yeah, that’s what the Tea Party base thinks being strong is all about, being bullies…..

14 simoom  Tue, Sep 17, 2013 11:10:08am

This is just a cut and paste from what I posted last night, but I think these parts of the NYT write-up were pretty damning, and worth repeating:

“Forensic Details in U.N. Report Point to Assad’s Use of Gas”

One annex to the report also identified azimuths, or angular measurements, from where rockets had struck, back to their points of origin. When plotted and marked independently on maps by analysts from Human Rights Watch and by The New York Times, the United Nations data from two widely scattered impact sites pointed directly to a Syrian military complex.

And:

Moreover, those weapons are fired by large, conspicuous launchers. For rebels to have carried out the attack, they would have had to organize an operation with weapons they are not known to have and of considerable scale, sophistication and secrecy — moving the launchers undetected into position in areas under strong government influence or control, keeping them in place unmolested for a sustained attack that would have generated extensive light and noise, and then successfully withdrawing them — all without being detected in any way.

And:

In two chilling pieces of information, the inspectors said that the remnants of a warhead they had found showed its capacity of sarin to be about 56 liters — far higher than initially thought. They also said that falling temperatures at the time of the attack ensured that the poison gas, heavier than air, would hug the ground, penetrating lower levels of buildings “where many people were seeking shelter.”

The investigators were unable to examine all of the munitions used, but they were able to find and measure several rockets or their components. Using standard field techniques for ordnance identification and crater analysis, they established that at least two types of rockets had been used, including an M14 artillery rocket bearing Cyrillic markings and a 330-millimeter rocket of unidentified provenance.

15 Ian G.  Tue, Sep 17, 2013 11:11:52am

Sorry, just bringing over this bit of idiocy from the other thread:

“Conservatism is too cerebral for many Americans,”

Wait, I thought Rick Santorum said that cerebral Americans would never vote GOP. These two clowns need to get their talking points straight.

Also, “Duck Dynasty”? The hell? That’s the preferred show of the cerebral class?

16 Charles Johnson  Tue, Sep 17, 2013 11:12:18am
17 lawhawk  Tue, Sep 17, 2013 11:12:20am

Rep. Cantor once again focusing on what’s important, and my retort:

18 Political Atheist  Tue, Sep 17, 2013 11:15:10am

let’s see about this “loss” to Putin.
We do not have to attack with all the collateral damage and issues that causes. None of our military is put at risk. Organized terror groups have no cause celeb for attacking our interests. Now it’s on Putin to make his client state comply, and we will see reduced or removed chemical weapons stocks.

Any chance we could have some more “losses” like this one in the coming years? Moar please.

If this was a ratings winner, victory would then be ours.

19 lawhawk  Tue, Sep 17, 2013 11:15:51am

re: #16 Charles Johnson

There’s something magical about Paris at night. One of my biggest sellers on CafePress is this magnet of the Eiffel Tower at sunset.

Have pictures of the very photogenic gargoyles too, including this particularly funny one.

20 Kragar  Tue, Sep 17, 2013 11:16:39am

An Exercise In Projection: Horowitz Says Liberals See Conservatives As ‘The Party Of Satan’

Horowitz declared that progressives believe that they can create the Kingdom of Heaven on earth, which means that not only are they willing to commit any crime and tell any lie, they also look at those who oppose them “as the Devil’s party.”

“People who are called liberals,” Horowitz stated, “people who call themselves progressives, or leftists, or socialists see themselves as an Army of the Saints redeeming the world. They don’t believe in a divine redemption; they believe in a redemption on this earth created by them. Therefore they see anybody who doubts or opposes their program as the party of Satan”:

21 Killgore Trout  Tue, Sep 17, 2013 11:17:38am

re: #5 Bulworth

Can’t wait to see the Moonbat reaction to this.

Not much reaction at all. They are more interested in gun control, NSA and whatever wingnuts are doing. Now that US military action looks unlikely they’ve lost interest. “Not our problem”.

22 darthstar  Tue, Sep 17, 2013 11:20:19am

re: #17 lawhawk

Rep. Cantor once again focusing on what’s important, and my retort:

[Embedded content]

23 Charles Johnson  Tue, Sep 17, 2013 11:21:29am
25 Charles Johnson  Tue, Sep 17, 2013 11:22:19am

Greenwald is now calling people “drooling idiots” and “NSA defenders” even if they’re basically on his side. All they have to do is criticize him.

26 darthstar  Tue, Sep 17, 2013 11:22:29am
27 Ian G.  Tue, Sep 17, 2013 11:22:59am

re: #20 Kragar

Horowitz really needs serious psychiatric care. He’s been lost in 1968 his whole adult life, it’s just that he switched from one Manichean side to the other.

28 BongCrodny  Tue, Sep 17, 2013 11:23:10am

re: #15 Ian G.

Sorry, just bringing over this bit of idiocy from the other thread:

*****************

One way to change to “turn the tide” and improve the GOP’s image as a “cold and heartless” party, she writes, is to shame women who seek an abortion: “Portray the woman who wants to abort her baby as cruel and selfish, and showcase those children who grew up with permanent injuries as a result of an attempted, botched abortion. These kinds of portrayals must be done frequently and everywhere.”

Shorter Rachel Alexander: “We will win the war for hearts and minds if we’re bigger assholes.”

29 simoom  Tue, Sep 17, 2013 11:23:44am

Human Rights Watch on the U.N. Report:

hrw.org

The experts’ mandate does not allow them to say who was responsible for the deadly barrage. But if you read between the lines, it isn’t difficult to figure it out.

The rocket systems identified by the UN as used in the attack - truck-launched 330mm rockets with around 50 to 60 liters of Sarin, as well as 140mm Soviet-produced rockets carrying a smaller Sarin-filled warhead - are both known to be in the arsenal of the Syrian armed forces. They have never been seen in rebel hands. The amount of Sarin used in the attack - hundreds of kilograms, according to Human Rights Watch’s calculations - also indicates government responsibility for the attack, as opposition forces have never been known to be in possession of such significant amounts of Sarin.

The various theories claiming to have “evidence” that opposition forces were responsible for the attack lack credibility. This was not an accidental explosion caused by opposition fighters who mishandled chemical weapons, as claimed by some commentators online. The attacks took place at two sites 16 kilometres apart, and involved incoming rockets, not on-the-ground explosions. This was not a chemical attack cooked up by opposition forces in some underground kitchen. It was a sophisticated attack involving military-grade Sarin.

30 Killgore Trout  Tue, Sep 17, 2013 11:25:10am

Iranian media: Iran will not close Fordo nuclear plant: source

31 darthstar  Tue, Sep 17, 2013 11:25:17am
32 lawhawk  Tue, Sep 17, 2013 11:25:42am

And as with the Snowden debacle, we’re left wondering just how subcontractors are vetted for access to sensitive sites. The Navy Yard shooter was supposedly vetted for security access, and yet earlier incidents that should have raised red flags either didn’t show, or didn’t raise those red flags.

Some of this is the result of outsourcing programs/projects that were previously done in house - in the name of cost cutting. But the companies that are doing the vetting may not be getting the job done. Two high profile incidents don’t mean the entire system is broken, but it could signify that there are serious lapses or areas of concern that need to be fixed.

33 Political Atheist  Tue, Sep 17, 2013 11:26:55am

re: #30 Killgore Trout

Iranian media: Iran will not close Fordo nuclear plant: source

Those guys taking negotiating lessons from North Korea?

34 Gus  Tue, Sep 17, 2013 11:27:14am
35 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Sep 17, 2013 11:28:58am

Lisa just Derps the Best Derp Evah!

36 klys  Tue, Sep 17, 2013 11:31:30am

Application submitted to enroll in classes part-time while I teach myself enough computer science to be dangerous. Fingers crossed!

37 Killgore Trout  Tue, Sep 17, 2013 11:32:15am

re: #33 Political Atheist

Those guys taking negotiating lessons from North Korea?

Pretty much. I assume the Iramians and N Koreans take turns jerking us around. Syrians will do the same thing, it’s just too easy.

38 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Sep 17, 2013 11:32:40am

re: #36 klys

Application submitted to enroll in classes part-time while I teach myself enough computer science to be dangerous. Fingers crossed!

You just want to learn enough to hack the cookie maker, don’t you? The Grandmas will not be amused. Or the Engineer Felines as well. A powerful duo to cross!

;)

39 BongCrodny  Tue, Sep 17, 2013 11:33:35am

re: #35 Vicious Babushka

Lisa just Derps the Best Derp Evah!

[Embedded content]

Is there any conspiracy theory she *doesn’t* believe in?

40 simoom  Tue, Sep 17, 2013 11:33:56am

re: #29 simoom

Here’s that actual PDF Human Right’s Watch report “Attacks on Ghouta.
Analysis of Alleged Use of Chemical Weapons in Syria” (NSFW cover photo of gassed children):

hrw.org

Our investigation finds that the August 21 attacks were likely chemical weapons attacks using a surface-to-surface rocket system of approximately 330mm in diameter—likely Syrian-produced—and a Soviet-era 140mm surface-to-surface rocket system to deliver a nerve agent. Evidence suggests the agent was most likely Sarin or a similar weapons-grade nerve agent. Three local doctors told Human Rights Watch that victims of the attacks showed symptoms which are consistent with exposure to nerve gas, including suffocation; constricted, irregular, and infrequent breathing; involuntary muscle spasms; nausea; frothing at the mouth; fluid coming out of noses and eyes; convulsing; dizziness; blurred vision; and red and irritated eyes, and pin-point pupils.

The evidence concerning the type of rockets and launchers used in these attacks strongly suggests that these are weapon systems known and documented to be only in the possession of, and used by, Syrian government armed forces. Human Rights Watch and arms experts monitoring the use of weaponry in Syria have not documented Syrian
opposition forces to be in the possession of the 140mm and 330mm rockets used in the attack, or their associated launchers.

The Syrian government has denied its responsibility for the attack, and has blamed opposition groups, but has presented no evidence to back up its claims. Based on the available evidence, Human Rights Watch finds that Syrian government forces were almost certainly responsible for the August 21 attacks, and that a weapons-grade nerve agent was delivered during the attack using specially designed rocket delivery systems. The scale and coordinated nature of the two attacks; against opposition-held areas; the presence of government-controlled potential launching sites within range of the targets; the pattern of other recent alleged chemical weapon attacks against opposition-held areas using the same 330mm rocket delivery system; and the documented possession of the 140mm and 330mm rocket systems able to deliver chemical weapons in the government arsenal—all point towards Syrian government responsibility for the attacks.

Human Rights Watch has investigated alternative claims that opposition forces themselves were responsible for the August 21 attacks, and has found such claims lacking in credibility and inconsistent with the evidence found at the scene. Claims that the August 21 deaths were caused by an accidental explosion by opposition forces mishandling chemical weapons in their possession are inconsistent with large numbers of deaths at two locations 16 kilometers apart, and documentation of rocket attacks on
the sites that morning, as evidenced by witness accounts, the damage visible on the rockets themselves, and their impact craters.

41 Targetpractice  Tue, Sep 17, 2013 11:34:56am

re: #32 lawhawk

And as with the Snowden debacle, we’re left wondering just how subcontractors are vetted for access to sensitive sites. The Navy Yard shooter was supposedly vetted for security access, and yet earlier incidents that should have raised red flags either didn’t show, or didn’t raise those red flags.

Some of this is the result of outsourcing programs/projects that were previously done in house - in the name of cost cutting. But the companies that are doing the vetting may not be getting the job done. Two high profile incidents don’t mean the entire system is broken, but it could signify that there are serious lapses or areas of concern that need to be fixed.

Had heard word last night that the contractor’s blaming the Navy for not giving them the guy’s criminal record before working on getting him clearance.

42 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Sep 17, 2013 11:35:24am

My son just dropped by my workplace on his way to the airport after attending a tech conference. It’s Bring Your Child To Work Day!

LOL I introduced him to my managers and he wanted to talk about creating iPhone and Android apps for our department.

They smiled and said it something that’s on the wish list. :)

43 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Sep 17, 2013 11:36:06am

re: #39 BongCrodny

Is there any conspiracy theory she *doesn’t* believe in?

Holy shit.

44 Backwoods_Sleuth  Tue, Sep 17, 2013 11:36:55am

re: #19 lawhawk

There’s something magical about Paris at night. One of my biggest sellers on CafePress is this magnet of the Eiffel Tower at sunset.

Have pictures of the very photogenic gargoyles too, including this particularly funny one.

I have a dozen or so gargoyles, including this tiny one who guards our bathroom.

Bathroom Gargoyle

45 ProTARDISLiberal  Tue, Sep 17, 2013 11:37:51am

Meanwhile, in Over-Reaction Land:

I liked Hotel California.

46 simoom  Tue, Sep 17, 2013 11:39:05am

re: #40 simoom

Section IV of the HRW Report, “Responsibility for the August 21 attacks”:

Syrian Government Forces Responsibility for the Attacks

The evidence examined by Human Rights Watch strongly suggests that the August 21 chemical weapon attacks on Eastern and Western Ghouta were carried out by government forces. Our basis for this finding is:

• The large-scale nature of the attacks, involving at least a dozen surface-to-surface rockets affecting two different neighborhoods in Damascus countryside situated 16 kilometers apart, and surrounded by
major Syrian government military positions.

• One of the types of rockets used in the attack, the 330mm rocket system - likely Syrian produced, which appear to be have been used in a number of alleged chemical weapon attacks, has been filmed in at least
two instances in the hands of government forces. The second type of rocket, the Soviet-produced 140mm rocket, which can carry Sarin, is listed as a weapon known to be in Syrian government weapon stocks. Both rockets have never been reported to be in the possession of the opposition. Nor is there any footage or other evidence that the armed opposition has the vehicle-mounted launchers needed to fire these
rockets.

• The August 21 attacks were a sophisticated military attack, requiring large amounts of nerve agent (each 330mm warhead is estimated to contain between 50 and 60 liters of agent), specialized procedures to load the warheads with the nerve agent, and specialized launchers to launch the rockets

47 Bulworth  Tue, Sep 17, 2013 11:39:07am

re: #35 Vicious Babushka

TROOF!!

48 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Sep 17, 2013 11:40:28am

re: #43 Vicious Babushka

Holy shit.

[Embedded content]

Jeeez… no, just sober up and let the meth wear off too.

49 Bulworth  Tue, Sep 17, 2013 11:40:45am

re: #34 Gus

Naturally

50 blueraven  Tue, Sep 17, 2013 11:41:03am

re: #30 Killgore Trout

Iranian media: Iran will not close Fordo nuclear plant: source

Yes because TT is such a reliable source. //

51 palomino  Tue, Sep 17, 2013 5:30:11pm

re: #37 Killgore Trout

Pretty much. I assume the Iramians and N Koreans take turns jerking us around. Syrians will do the same thing, it’s just too easy.

Offer up a solution.

Should we unilaterally attack Syria, Iran and N Korea? Seriously, what do you propose?

52 Quicklund  Tue, Sep 17, 2013 7:59:56pm

re: #2 Targetpractice

Hear hear! It was clear from the beginning that the probability Assad’s side was behind the attack as as close to 100% as these things get in life. There is no dispute Assad’s forces shelled the same exact areas with conventional artillery at the same exact time. How the rebels knew to gas themselves at the exact correct moment in the same exactly correct locations defies explanation. Add in the lack of training the rebels have in the artillery rockets used (and which the rebels do not have) and the lack of handling these dangerous CW weapons and the culprit is clear.

But one thing that really galls me is the casual acceptance so many Americans had for the notion the rebels would gas themselves. Rebel groups grew out of the need to defend themselves from Assad during the early protests. Every report says the rebels are splintered into countless small forces. What this means is most of the rebel groups exist to defend the areas they live in. It is the Syrian Army which can transport troops up and down the whole of Syria. Rebels fight on the turf they call home.

The Conspiracy Theorists believe that these rebels gassed themselves, their PARENTS and THEIR OWN CHILDREN … all to make some sort of point? And so many Americans bought into that notion. Well hell them A-rabs aren’t really human are they? Disgusting.

But rest assured. These Conspiracy Theories never go away. They are Zombies. You and I will be hearing this ZCT repeated until the day we die. for my money, people who push this racist hateful ZCT desreve to be shunned and mocked as are “Truthers” and “Birthers”.

53 Quicklund  Tue, Sep 17, 2013 8:04:49pm

re: #4 Kragar

Sad to say the “False Flag” Zombie Conspiracy Theory seems to be more popular with the American left than with the Tea Party. As pointed out already the Tea Party seems to have settled in on the “Putin Rules!” excuse. After all that fits in with their ability to judge international events: none.


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