White House Statement on Ukraine and the Crimea “Referendum”

“We reject the ‘referendum’”
World • Views: 15,514

Here’s the official statement from the White House on today’s Crimean referendum to secede from Ukraine:

THE WHITE HOUSE
Office of the Press Secretary
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
March 16, 2014

The United States has steadfastly supported the independence, sovereignty, and territorial integrity of Ukraine since it declared its independence in 1991, and we reject the “referendum” that took place today in the Crimean region of Ukraine. This referendum is contrary to Ukraine’s constitution, and the international community will not recognize the results of a poll administered under threats of violence and intimidation from a Russian military intervention that violates international law.

No decisions should be made about the future of Ukraine without the Ukrainian government. Moreover, this vote was not necessary. The Ukrainian government has made clear its willingness to discuss increased autonomy for Crimea, and the presidential elections planned for May 25 provide a legitimate opportunity for all Ukrainians to make their voices heard on the future of their country.

In addition, Ukraine, the United States, the EU, the OSCE, the UN, and others have called for Russia to allow international monitors into the Crimean peninsula to ensure that the rights of ethnic Russians in Ukraine are being upheld. Russia has spurned those calls as well as outreach from the Ukrainian government and instead has escalated its military intervention into Crimea and initiated threatening military exercises on Ukraine’s eastern border.

Russia’s actions are dangerous and destabilizing. The UN Security Council recognized this in a vote yesterday that only Russia opposed. As the United States and our allies have made clear, military intervention and violation of international law will bring increasing costs for Russia - not only due to measures imposed by the United States and our allies but also as a direct result of Russia’s own destabilizing actions.

In this century, we are long past the days when the international community will stand quietly by while one country forcibly seizes the territory of another. We call on all members of the international community to continue to condemn such actions, to take concrete steps to impose costs, and to stand together in support of the Ukrainian people and Ukraine’s territorial integrity and sovereignty.

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312 comments
1 Gus  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 12:38:44pm
2 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 12:39:48pm

Some of the US media are reporting on this like it’s a real election.

3 Gus  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 12:39:59pm

Note:

4 HappyWarrior  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 12:42:35pm

re: #3 Gus

Note:

[Embedded content]

Right just like bolshevik is just majority.

5 jaunte  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 12:43:40pm
6 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 12:46:44pm

Major OJ-style car chase up Chicago Lake Shore drive for murderer?

why do I come to LGF first to find out?

7 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 12:47:32pm
8 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 12:48:03pm

Police chase on Lake Shore Drive involves armed fugitive

because people think this happens all the time in Chicago, with Model-T’s and Tommy guns.

9 Political Atheist  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 12:48:04pm

Will the Dudebros squirm at this outrage or just ignore is as GG has been doing?

10 KiTA  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 12:49:17pm


Perhaps taunting a Russian puppet leader over the Intarwebs isn’t the best thing I could do in life. :)

11 ObserverArt  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 12:50:09pm

re: #2 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Some of the US media are reporting on this like it’s a real election.

You may be expecting too much out of the US media.

The next week is going to be very interesting in gauging the Russia response to anything UN and Western. If he totally blows off the west and continues doing what he is doing then he is seriously in this for power, If he shows any willingness to deal then he is in it for the recognition and maybe a way to extract some deals for rights to his bases and Russian access to Crimea.

And, I wonder if he might be angling for some other deals with the west. Maybe some more ‘gas station’ deals with European Union, maybe some trade stuff. Maybe some damn help to pay off his 50 billion games.

12 jaunte  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 12:51:34pm

Statement of the Mejlis of the Crimean Tatar people to the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, to all people of Ukraine - Ukrainian citizens of all nationalities:

1) we reaffirm our recognition of Ukraine as a sovereign and independent state within the existing borders;
2) we strongly condemn the act of aggression by the Russian Federation and their plan for the annexation of the Crimea, considering it as a blatant violation of the international law that destabilizes the existing system of international relations;
3) we do not recognize the Crimean referendum of March 16, 2014 aimed at changing the territorial jurisdiction of the Crimea as legitimate under the international laws and the Constitution of Ukraine;
4) we categorically reject any attempts to determine the future of the Crimea without the free expression of will by the Crimean Tatar people - the indigenous people of the Crimea;
5) the right to decide in which state the Crimean Tatar people should live belongs exclusively to the Crimean Tatars;

continues:
euromaidanpr.wordpress.com

13 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 12:51:50pm

Lake Shore Drive, Chicago (US 41, IIRC)

14 Stanley Sea  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 12:52:24pm

re: #13 FemNaziBitch

Is it still going on?

15 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 12:53:42pm
Sunday, Mar 16, 2014 | Updated 2:38 PM CDTView Comments (0) | Email |

Scanner information indicated that shots were fired and the vehicle was stopped near Fullerton Parkway in Chicago, but that has not been confirmed.

Chicago Police News Affairs confirmed the police activity in the area, but could not offer any details.

A witness near the scene said a black car had crashed and was surrounded by dozens of police cars.

“A black car was crumpled up on top of a ridge and there were maybe 20 cop cars surrounding it,” said Ronald Rubino.

Source: nbcchicago.com

16 Stanley Sea  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 12:54:03pm

Retweeted by Stephen King’s son - Joe Hill

17 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 12:54:05pm

re: #14 Stanley Sea

Is it still going on?

ended-according to the last I found. (above)

18 Kragar  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 12:54:36pm

re: #2 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Some of the US media are reporting on this like it’s a real election.

They think mindlessly repeating information from any source counts as “news.”

19 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 12:55:56pm

video

20 Political Atheist  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 12:56:34pm

re: #2 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

re: #11 ObserverArt

This might be a really good story to watch as illustrative who is doing worthwhile news (if anyone) and who plays for entertainment, who plays for Putin. I say this because as a distant even there is less partisan filtration than so many domestic & local issues.

Lately I’m finding Al Jazeera American and BBC America to be worth the time for news and their documentaries. Fox and MSNBC and lately CNN not so much.

Of course the right will not get behind Obama like they should so we will have that awful dimension in the news. Right now everyone needs to get behind Obama on this one. Straight up.

21 Gus  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 1:00:44pm
22 Stanley Sea  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 1:00:52pm

re: #19 FemNaziBitch

video

Where is D_F?

23 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 1:01:17pm

re: #20 Political Atheist

Lately I’m finding Al Jazeera American and BBC America to be worth the time for news and their documentaries. Fox and MSNBC and lately CNN not so much.

Me too. Makes you wonder about our “free-press”—maybe this is what the Conservative Whackos think it should be like —a totalitarian government?

24 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 1:01:28pm

re: #22 Stanley Sea

Where is D_F?

I don’t get it either.

25 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 1:02:04pm
26 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 1:02:39pm

re: #22 Stanley Sea

Where is D_F?

This is the aftermath. I think all the excitement is over. Wonder what they’ll show us once the editing and “fact-checking” is over for the 6pm broadcast.

Chicago is hyper-sensitive to any reference to the past. This is really not the norm, but they are always trying to change the Al Capone perception of the City.

27 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 1:04:57pm

more pictures and I think the same video.

28 Stanley Sea  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 1:05:09pm

re: #26 FemNaziBitch

This is the aftermath. I think all the excitement is over. Wonder what they’ll show us once the editing and “fact-checking” is over for the 6pm broadcast.

Bad joke. If I had to choose any lizard who has never broken the law, I’d pick D_F. :)

29 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 1:09:00pm

Chicago Tribune weighs in.

30 The Dude Abides  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 1:09:16pm

Holy schneikes
Final words from jet came after systems shutdown
news.yahoo.com

31 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 1:09:24pm

re: #28 Stanley Sea

Bad joke. If I had to choose any lizard who has never broken the law, I’d pick D_F. :)

LOL

32 The Ghost of a Flea  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 1:12:03pm

re: #16 Stanley Sea

did the guy who created the sword just look at his dick and go whoa I wish this was longer and could kill people

No, he did not.

The guy that invented the spear, on the other hand…

33 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 1:12:59pm

Where is Gus, he’d have this all figured-out by now.

34 Gus  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 1:14:25pm
35 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 1:14:40pm

bbl

36 Gus  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 1:14:54pm

re: #33 FemNaziBitch

Where is Gus, he’d have this all figured-out by now.

I iz on VirginMobile2Go which is like horrible.

37 Eclectic Cyborg  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 1:16:45pm

re: #30 The Dude Abides

Holy schneikes
Final words from jet came after systems shutdown
news.yahoo.com

I had a joke here, but I think that would be inappropriate.

Is this information from a reliable source?

38 Gus  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 1:16:52pm
39 Gus  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 1:18:36pm
40 Stanley Sea  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 1:19:32pm
41 Eclectic Cyborg  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 1:22:07pm

re: #40 Stanley Sea

Needs more armed men.

42 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 1:22:19pm

Death toll update from Nigeria
200 killed in Nigeria in raids by suspected Fulani Muslims

43 RealityBasedSteve  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 1:23:27pm

re: #37 Eclectic Cyborg

I had a joke here, but I think that would be inappropriate.

Is this information from a reliable source?

It’s sourced AP, and seems to be calm, rational and fact-based in nature. I’d tend to trust it. Not being snarky, it’s just that there’s been SO MUCH wild stuff published, this looks like a “Facts, Just the Facts Madam” summary.

RBS

44 Gus  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 1:23:52pm


Heh.

45 jaunte  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 1:24:00pm

re: #38 Gus

“…By June, at the height of the famine, people in Ukraine are dying at the rate of 30,000 a day, nearly a third of them are children under 10. Between 1932-34, approximately 4 million deaths are attributed to starvation within the borders of Soviet Ukraine. This does not include deportations, executions, or deaths from ordinary causes.”
holodomorct.org

46 Gus  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 1:26:58pm

re: #45 jaunte

Fucking evil. Disgusting Soviets. Disgusting Leninists.

47 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 1:29:21pm

re: #40 Stanley Sea

You hit the nail on the head.

48 Stanley Sea  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 1:34:45pm
49 Gus  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 1:35:21pm
50 Kragar  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 1:37:22pm

re: #39 Gus

Reporter: What kind of plane is it?

Johnny: Oh, it’s a big pretty white plane with red stripes, curtains in the windows and wheels and it looks like a big Tylenol.

51 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 1:39:56pm
52 Gus  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 1:43:36pm
53 Idle Drifter  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 1:45:44pm

re: #8 FemNaziBitch

They don’t. Awe shucks.

54 bratwurst  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 1:47:13pm
55 Gus  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 1:47:30pm

Welp, more things are piling on for the captain of MH370. Not looking good.

56 HappyWarrior  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 1:47:58pm

re: #48 Stanley Sea

[Embedded content]

Well I’d be fooked(fucked)

57 Skip Intro  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 1:50:50pm

re: #39 Gus

[Embedded content]

“I can’t wait to see them explain Crimea with toy soldiers and tanks. “

58 Targetpractice  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 1:51:42pm

re: #51 Justanotherhuman

[Embedded content]

Shockingly, even the Freepers acknowledge that this is a farce.

59 nines09  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 1:53:13pm

I guess the GOP reaction to all this would be admiration and respect for an ex KGB thug who they lauded and said would be a better leader of America than a black man with more class than an entire generation of bigots. That’s how they would operate, if only given the chance. In the neck. With a rusty hanger. Wake the F up.

60 RealityBasedSteve  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 1:53:48pm

re: #57 Skip Intro

“I can’t wait to see them explain Crimea with toy soldiers and tanks. “

cracked.com

RBS

61 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:00:32pm

re: #49 Gus

[Embedded content]

That’s a Crimean city located on the Isthmus of Perekop which connects Crimea to Ukraine. No doubt ready to move into southern Ukraine.

62 Eclectic Cyborg  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:01:22pm

re: #57 Skip Intro

“I can’t wait to see them explain Crimea with toy soldiers and tanks. “

“and these guys with the parachutes represent Russian shock troops falling from the sky all over Crimea…”

63 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:05:37pm
64 aagcobb  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:06:26pm

re: #59 nines09

I guess the GOP reaction to all this would be admiration and respect for an ex KGB thug who they lauded and said would be a better leader of America than a black man with more class than an entire generation of bigots. That’s how they would operate, if only given the chance. In the neck. With a rusty hanger. Wake the F up.

Exactly. Billy Graham’s son Franklin recently expressed his support for Putin’s persecution of Gays. Remember that when wingnuts claim they are fighting for “religious freedom.”

65 nines09  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:09:30pm

re: #64 aagcobb

Exactly. Billy Graham’s son Franklin recently expressed his support for Putin’s persecution of Gays. Remember that when wingnuts claim they are fighting for “religious freedom.”

Remember that a political party that supposedly represents American interests backed Putin to the point that they may have even given him the idea that they are with him. The GOP backed Putin. Putin acted. Remember that.

66 Pie-onist Overlord  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:14:59pm

I’m leasing a new vehicle next week, 3rd new car since 2011, and I’m pretty “average”

67 Eclectic Cyborg  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:17:12pm

re: #66 Pie-onist Overlord

I’m leasing a new vehicle next week, 3rd new car since 2011, and I’m pretty “average”

[Embedded content]

I don’t buy new cars. can’t justify the depreciation hit. I’d rather have a late model used.

Unless I became seriously well off and had money to burn, I can’t see myself ever buying new.

68 Stanley Sea  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:18:12pm

re: #66 Pie-onist Overlord

I’m leasing a new vehicle next week, 3rd new car since 2011, and I’m pretty “average”

[Embedded content]

Whatever AllFinancial. I’m pretty fucking tight on money & I afforded a new car this year.

69 Stanley Sea  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:19:33pm

Stressketball right now.

70 Targetpractice  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:21:19pm

re: #63 Justanotherhuman

[Embedded content]

When the choices were “Join Russia now” and “Join Russia later”? Here, let me put on my shocked face:

71 aagcobb  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:23:27pm

Cats cut Gators lead to two!

72 Stanley Sea  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:25:42pm
73 Stanley Sea  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:27:05pm

re: #71 aagcobb

Cats cut Gators lead to two!

SHUT UP

74 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:27:45pm

re: #73 Stanley Sea

SHUT UP

75 Stanley Sea  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:28:16pm

re: #74 Backwoods_Sleuth

[Embedded content]

So am I. So am I.

76 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:28:46pm

re: #66 Pie-onist Overlord

I’m leasing a new vehicle next week, 3rd new car since 2011, and I’m pretty “average”

[Embedded content]

I haven’t driven a new car since the early 90s; I think I paid $12K for a replacement Nissan Altima in 1992. I was “average” then, but like many Americans, I am no longer. I don’t know anyone (and certainly no one in this apt complex) who owns a brand new vehicle or leases one.

The median household income still hovers around $53K/yr nationwide, according to the US Census Bureau, which gave the figure for the years 2008-2012. That’s the median household income not the median individual income.

quickfacts.census.gov

77 Gus  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:29:20pm

Rev. Phelps will now descend into hell run by the gay Satan from South Park.

//

78 ObserverArt  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:29:30pm

re: #59 nines09

I guess the GOP reaction to all this would be admiration and respect for an ex KGB thug who they lauded and said would be a better leader of America than a black man with more class than an entire generation of bigots. That’s how they would operate, if only given the chance. In the neck. With a rusty hanger. Wake the F up.

Ha, they are probably looking into how they can swing some votes like Russia did for Crimea. Maybe institute that thug with guns thing at election places. They could say it was in response to the funny business with Obama and was necessary to protect the Republican vote. Russian-style voter suppression.

79 Ming  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:30:28pm

To anticipate right-wing criticism of today’s White House statement as excessively “multinational” (e.g. the international community condemns…):

In 1990, when Iraq invaded Kuwait and George H. W. Bush made his famous “this aggression will not stand” speech (which I think was on the White House grounds), the Prime Minister of Great Britain, Margaret Thatcher, was standing right next to him. So, President Bush and Prime Minister Thatcher, in their own way, invoked “the international community” as well.

Absolutely nothing wrong, nothing weak about that.

80 Eclectic Cyborg  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:31:32pm

re: #78 ObserverArt

Ha, they are probably looking into how they can swing some votes like Russia did for Crimea. Maybe institute that thug with guns thing at election places. They could say it was in response to the funny business with Obama and was necessary to protect the Republican vote. Russian-style voter suppression.

I hear them Black Panther guys are pretty good at intimidation…

/

81 aagcobb  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:32:04pm

Cats will get final shot for the win!

82 Stanley Sea  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:32:50pm

14 second game. Dying.

83 aagcobb  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:33:25pm

Damn

84 palmerskiss  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:33:33pm
The United States has steadfastly supported the independence, sovereignty, and territorial integrity of Ukraine since it declared its independence in 1991, and we reject the “referendum” that took place today in the Crimean region of Ukraine. This referendum is contrary to Ukraine’s constitution, and the international community will not recognize the results of a poll administered under threats of violence and intimidation from a Russian military intervention that violates international law.

that is mostly true, but it is not really the entire story is it?

85 ObserverArt  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:34:27pm

re: #80 Eclectic Cyborg

I hear them Black Panther guys are pretty good at intimidation…

/

Well, there are also bikers, NRA gun clubs, militia members, ex-cops and military…no shortage of right wing Americans that could be paid for the job of voter guards.

86 Stanley Sea  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:34:42pm

f u c k i n g AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

87 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:34:45pm

re: #84 palmerskiss

that is mostly true, but it is not really the entire story is it?

What’s left out?

88 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:35:16pm

Watch the Video
Youtube Video

89 Charles Johnson  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:35:35pm

Here’s the PHP code that replaces Twitter hashtags and usernames in LGF comments with HTML links to those pages at Twitter, but ignores them if they’re inside an <a> tag:

<?php
$text = preg_replace_callback(
	'~(?<=^|(?<=[^a-zA-Z0-9-\.]))(?(?=<a\b[^>]*>.+?</a>)(?:<a\b[^>]*>.+?</a>)|(?<mark>#|@)(?<name>[A-Za-z_]+[A-Za-z0-9_]+))~ims',
	function($matches) {
		if ($matches['name']) {
			return (
				'<a href="https://twitter.com/' .
				(
					$matches['mark'] == '#' 
					? 'search/realtime/%23' . $matches['name'] . '">#' 
					: $matches['name'] . '/with_replies">@'
				) . 
				$matches['name'] . '</a>'
			);
		} else {
			return $matches[0];
		}
	},
	$text
);
?>
90 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:36:02pm

re: #86 Stanley Sea

f u c k i n g AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[Embedded content]

Congrats

91 aagcobb  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:37:15pm

We’ve got ice accumulating from sleet with snow on the way; kids might miss yet another day of school tomorrow

92 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:38:36pm

re: #91 aagcobb

We’ve got ice accumulating from sleet with snow on the way; kids might miss yet another day of school tomorrow

We had the ice & sleet about 4 hours ago.
Now it’s all snow. Close to two inches so far and no signs of stopping.

93 palmerskiss  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:39:08pm

re: #87 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

What’s left out?

that sans “threats of violence and intimidation from a Russian military intervention that violates international law.” Crimea would likely go the same route. If so, the question becomes - are you belaboring the obvious for obtuse reasons.

I’m not suggesting international law has been left unscathed in this… nor that there should not be push-back nor admonishment, just noting we be aware not all engines have enough power to champion every hill.

94 ObserverArt  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:43:43pm

re: #92 Backwoods_Sleuth

We had the ice & sleet about 4 hours ago.
Now it’s all snow. Close to two inches so far and no signs of stopping.

Wow. We’re lucky up here in the Columbus area. Just raw temps and lots of wind. No precip in any form.

95 Stanley Sea  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:44:12pm

re: #90 Backwoods_Sleuth

Congrats

Regrets. Great game.

96 freetoken  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:44:26pm

Very hot day here today. This has been quite the warm and dry winter; loquats are not happy.

97 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:45:07pm

re: #94 ObserverArt

Wow. We’re lucky up here in the Columbus area. Just raw temps and lots of wind. No precip in any form.

NWS says it’s mostly along and south of the Ohio River. We’re forecast to get 2-4 inches.

98 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:45:39pm

Theater. Burning books, burning passports…what else will they burn?

instagram.com

99 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:46:04pm

re: #98 Justanotherhuman

Theater. Burning books, burning passports…what else will they burn?

instagram.com

Bras!!!

100 Stanley Sea  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:47:14pm

re: #96 freetoken

Very hot day here today. This has been quite the warm and dry winter; loquats are not happy.

There has been no winter here. My friend said, oh well, there was a week of cold.

It’s horrible. Santa Ana today big time. Looking for smoke, smelling for fire. RIP loquats. My succulents are suffering. This is supposed to be their rejuvenation period.

101 Targetpractice  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:47:16pm

re: #99 Backwoods_Sleuth

Bras!!!

Draft cards!

102 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:47:49pm

LinkWhy not tweet and put some pressure on the prosecutors in your State?

endthebacklog.org

Domestic Violence and Sexual Assault are the crimes that cause other crimes. Rapists are Serial Criminals.

103 Teukka  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:48:11pm

re: #98 Justanotherhuman

Theater. Burning books, burning passports…what else will they burn?

instagram.com

“Where books burn, sooner or later, so will people.”

104 ObserverArt  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:48:26pm

It should be a great NCAA March Madness Tourney this year. I do not think there is one clear cut front runner. Maybe Wichita State is the best team. But all the classic biggie conference have done a decent job of beating on each other all year. I follow Big Ten and the conference was as brutal as I can remember it in some time. I think that is reflective of the season for everyone.

105 Ming  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:48:26pm

re: #93 palmerskiss

I might (honestly not sure) be in favor of granting the Sevastopol military base (in the Crimea) to Russia, in much the same way that we have Guantanamo in Cuba. I can understand how last month’s events in the Ukraine must have made the Russian military very unhappy about the future of Sevastopol.

Beyond the very unusual case of Sevastopol, I don’t see how we can have “business as usual” with Russia, as long as they stay in Crimea. The agreements of 1991 should mean something.

106 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:48:48pm

re: #98 Justanotherhuman

Theater. Burning books, burning passports…what else will they burn?

instagram.com

Harry Potter Novels.

107 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:48:51pm

The Nazca plate is getting busy. There was a 6.2 in Peru yesterday.

earthquake.usgs.gov

Sorry, posted wrong link—again. : (

108 freetoken  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:49:24pm

As an American I find I have little to no emotional attachment to anything that happens around the Black Sea. Frankly, it all seems so remote and outside of my sphere of “what I care about.” It’s all so far way.

That’s not a statement about the actions of any of the parties over there. It’s a statement on why the actions of parties over there mean so little.

I strongly suspect most Americans agree with me. Once you take out remnant Cold War reactions to the “Soviets”, how many Americans really care about Crimea? Recent Ukrainian immigrants probably, but outside of that?

It all seems so very far away.

109 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:49:38pm

Sunny and cold in my part of the world.

110 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:50:29pm

re: #108 freetoken

As an American I find I have little to no emotional attachment to anything that happens around the Black Sea. Frankly, it all seems so remote and outside of my sphere of “what I care about.” It’s all so far way.

That’s not a statement about the actions of any of the parties over there. It’s a statement on why the actions of parties over there mean so little.

I strongly suspect most Americans agree with me. Once you take out remnant Cold War reactions to the “Soviets”, how many Americans really care about Crimea? Recent Ukrainian immigrants probably, but outside of that?

It all seems so very far away.

OH, but the emotions it does evoke in many.

Russia was the perennial OTHER for so many decades … .

111 nines09  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:50:57pm

re: #78 ObserverArt

Ha, they are probably looking into how they can swing some votes like Russia did for Crimea. Maybe institute that thug with guns thing at election places. They could say it was in response to the funny business with Obama and was necessary to protect the Republican vote. Russian-style voter suppression.

The GOP has heaped enough praise on Putin to be called an arm of his government. And where is the outrage over an American political party giving admiration and accolades to an ex KGB thug who then invades a neighboring nation to stop a movement for independence? Where exactly is it? If you are a Republican, turn on the TV and watch the truth be ignored but your words put into action in the Crimea. American Exceptionalism. Sure. You bet.

112 aagcobb  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:50:58pm

re: #95 Stanley Sea

Regrets. Great game.

I’m just happy the Cats played up to the challenge, even though they fell short. Its a lot better than we were seeing; now I have some hope for the Tournament.

113 palmerskiss  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:50:59pm

re: #105 Ming

I might (honestly not sure) be in favor of granting the Sevastopol military base (in the Crimea) to Russia, in much the same way that we have Guantanamo in Cuba. I can understand how last month’s events in the Ukraine must have made the Russian military very unhappy about the future of Sevastopol.

Beyond the very unusual case of Sevastopol, I don’t see how we can have “business as usual” with Russia, as long as they stay in Crimea. The agreements of 1991 should mean something.

so do the international conventions of law and holding of prisoners of war. Unless i am incorrect, the world decided, for the most part, that engine was not worth getting up that hill.

114 Gus  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:52:12pm

Hmm.

115 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:53:28pm

re: #108 freetoken

As an American I find I have little to no emotional attachment to anything that happens around the Black Sea. Frankly, it all seems so remote and outside of my sphere of “what I care about.” It’s all so far way.

That’s not a statement about the actions of any of the parties over there. It’s a statement on why the actions of parties over there mean so little.

I strongly suspect most Americans agree with me. Once you take out remnant Cold War reactions to the “Soviets”, how many Americans really care about Crimea? Recent Ukrainian immigrants probably, but outside of that?

It all seems so very far away.

And if that’s the typical American reaction, it’s a dangerous one, IMHO.

We should always be for self-determination, of course, but the situation in Crimea is anything but. This Russian-managed “referendum” today didn’t do much for Crimeans except to cede important warm water ports and strategic military installations to Russia.

Think about that.

116 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:54:38pm

re: #105 Ming

Beyond the very unusual case of Sevastopol, I don’t see how we can have “business as usual” with Russia, as long as they stay in Crimea. The agreements of 1991 should mean something.

I think we’ll get over it fairly quickly. Think of Georgia. After a year or so most of the sanctions had been lifted and we were talking about reset buttons and partners in peace. I don’t know how seriously to take US and NATO rhetoric, it seems mostly toothless stuff for domestic political purposes. I don’t the Russians are taking our threats seriously and I don’t think the new Ukrainian government really thinks we’ve got their back if the shit hits the fan.

117 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:55:03pm

And a pull of the lever will reveal today’s real winner!

118 ObserverArt  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:56:07pm

re: #108 freetoken

As an American I find I have little to no emotional attachment to anything that happens around the Black Sea. Frankly, it all seems so remote and outside of my sphere of “what I care about.” It’s all so far way.

That’s not a statement about the actions of any of the parties over there. It’s a statement on why the actions of parties over there mean so little.

I strongly suspect most Americans agree with me. Once you take out remnant Cold War reactions to the “Soviets”, how many Americans really care about Crimea? Recent Ukrainian immigrants probably, but outside of that?

It all seems so very far away.

I care in the aspect that Russia doesn’t cause too much world-wide turmoil. I think the world as a whole was hoping the Russians would get their shit together and join the modern world. Even China seems to have their own way of changing slowly to fit in. So, that would be the concern.

And oh yeah…that they don’t get so bold as to draw the ‘world’ as a whole into any kind of war-like action to stop whatever they are up to. The world doesn’t need a big ass war of any kind.

So from that standpoint…I would think everyone would have some level of concern. If anything history teaches that. Humans…what are you going to do with them?

119 freetoken  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:56:24pm

re: #115 Justanotherhuman

… This Russian-managed “referendum” today didn’t do much for Crimeans except to cede important warm water ports and strategic military installations to Russia.

Think about that.

I was under the impression that the Russians already used such ports.

120 CuriousLurker  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:56:45pm

*enters rubbing eyes, washes down ibuprofen with strong coffee*

Just came from the archives. It was surreal. Summer of 2008, 900+ comments. Apparently this was during the upheaval over creationism vs. evolution. Saw a few familiar faces, but not many (the vast majority are blocked).

Lots of talk about 9/11. One guy said liberals caused it with their “ignorance”—he got 19 updings and 0 downdings. Also Islam/Muslims are bad/crazy (the worst ever, apparently), Obama is bad, yay McCain & Republicans.

There was also that Zombie person claiming to have gone “undercover” to a Muslim conference and attended a Harun Yahya presentation, and then was supposedly “outed” and therefore never blogged about it. Seriously? What’s with the Spy vs. Spy drama llama bullshit?

Why the need for undercover in the first place? Oh right, taqiyyah—silly me. Those sneaky Muslims might have changed their presentations on the fly had they known an equally crafty enemy infidel was in their midst. And why not blog about it afterwards? Fear for his/her safety maybe? If so, why would such a (presumably) dangerous group of people let a known infiltrator leave the premises alive with whatever damaging intel had been collected?1 //

Randall (Thanos) seemed to be a lot more active in the main threads then , or at least in that one. He’s one of the few voices I’ve seen that seems to have been fairly steady & unchanging over the years.

Killgore was pretty active too. Despite his claims that he hasn’t changed, he exhibited none of the trolling/contrarianism that he does now, at least not that I could detect.

Gah, I really should know better than to waste time in the archives.

I now return you to your discussion(s) already in progress.

————————————————————

1. Also note that there would be fear because there have been numerous cases of undercover non-Muslims disappearing Jimmy Hoffa-like from Muslim conferences, right? I mean like a grand total of… ZERO.

121 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:58:12pm

My favorite holiday when I lived there as a kid
An Explosion of Color at Holi 2014 (Pictures)

122 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:58:59pm

re: #119 freetoken

I was under the impression that the Russians already used such ports.

They did, but with restrictions. Those restrictions no longer apply. See the agreement of 1991 which they have totally violated and which Ukraine has been consistent about complaining about recently. As long as Russia had its puppets, like Yanukovych in power, there was little problem.

EuroMaidan changed all that. Thus, we had the managed “referendum” of today in Crimea.

123 palmerskiss  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 2:59:46pm

re: #116 Killgore Trout

I think we’ll get over it fairly quickly. Think of Georgia. After a year or so most of the sanctions had been lifted and we were talking about reset buttons and partners in peace. I don’t know how seriously to take US and NATO rhetoric, it seems mostly toothless stuff for domestic political purposes. I don’t the Russians are taking our threats seriously and I don’t think the new Ukrainian government really thinks we’ve got their back if the shit hits the fan.

I think the key is not so much to define this incident as a moral priority. Morally, it is at best ambiguous, nuanced, and all grey. From a procedural standpoint it definitely is a mess… it highlights once again that the g8 nations for the most part are more powerful than the u.n. sec. council and the conventions it is supposed to enforce, This is not new - we knew that when we went to war in Iraq. We specifically violated the same principles of those conventions because we knew exactly what Russia understands about the 20th century - be wary of defending 20th century partitions…

124 Charles Johnson  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 3:00:55pm
126 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 3:02:59pm

Getty Image

127 CuriousLurker  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 3:03:10pm

re: #121 Killgore Trout

My favorite holiday when I lived there as a kid
An Explosion of Color at Holi 2014 (Pictures)

Beautiful.

re: #125 Killgore Trout

Image: 479076079-an-indian-child-adorned-with-coloured-powder-gettyimages.jpg

Won’t load.

128 freetoken  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 3:03:18pm

re: #124 Charles Johnson

Buildings used to be prettier back then; thus, among all those other things, that too was projected into the future.

129 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 3:05:33pm
130 Ming  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 3:06:29pm

re: #113 palmerskiss

so do the international conventions of law and holding of prisoners of war. Unless i am incorrect, the world decided, for the most part, that engine was not worth getting up that hill.

You make a good point that we should always be aware of trends and allegiances within the area in question (in this case, Crimea). Frankly, though, there is such a thing as “jumping the gun”. We may as well say “oh what the heck, California is leaning towards becoming part of Mexico anyway.”

I would also disagree that the rest of the world has already decided that this is not worth fighting over. Of course, at this stage, we should all want to avoid violence. Europe has deep business ties with Russia; no one should want to see those accomplishments reversed.

But let’s not be too quick to underestimate the world’s response. I happen to work with a few people in Poland, and I’m confident that many Poles are very concerned about all this.

131 freetoken  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 3:07:11pm
In this century, we are long past the days when the international community will stand quietly by while one country forcibly seizes the territory of another. We call on all members of the international community to continue to condemn such actions, to take concrete steps to impose costs, and to stand together in support of the Ukrainian people and Ukraine’s territorial integrity and sovereignty.

The “international community” has far less use for Ukraine than Russia does for Ukraine.

Which sucks for the Ukrainians.

But it also explains why the “international community” will do little of substance over this matter.

132 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 3:08:25pm

No tsunami expected from major earthquake off Chile, says Pacific Tsunami Warning Center - @Reuters

end of alert


Major earthquake off Chile, March 16, 2014
19m
Chile says it has ordered a preventive evacuation along part of its northern coastline following a 7.0 earthquake - @Reuters

133 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 3:09:13pm

re: #127 CuriousLurker

Beautiful.

Won’t load.

Ah, try this
Getty Image

134 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 3:10:18pm

re: #131 freetoken

What use does Russia have with the Ukraine? What do you think they gain?

135 CuriousLurker  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 3:10:23pm

re: #133 Killgore Trout

Ah, try this
[Embedded content]

Wow! I even have to upding you for that one, heh.

136 Pie-onist Overlord  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 3:11:02pm

re: #133 Killgore Trout

Ah, try this
[Embedded content]

I can’t help but ask, is that powder toxic?

137 freetoken  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 3:11:53pm

re: #134 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

What use does Russia have with the Ukraine? What do you think they gain?

1) As justanothermom pointed out, the Black Sea is to the USSR what, say, the Gulf of Mexico is to us.
2) Pathway for delivering fossil fuels to parts of Europe.
3) Food source.

138 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 3:12:05pm

re: #136 Pie-onist Overlord

I can’t help but ask, is that powder toxic?

Looking at the red rimmed eyes, I’d say, “yes”. At least very irritating.

139 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 3:14:02pm

re: #136 Pie-onist Overlord

I can’t help but ask, is that powder toxic?

Probably. Health and safety standards there are pretty lax.

140 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 3:14:14pm


WHAT RAPE CULTURE?

141 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 3:15:07pm

re: #137 freetoken

1) As justanothermom pointed out, the Black Sea is to the USSR what, say, the Gulf of Mexico is to us.

A place where hurricanes come from? “Warm water port” is fun to say, but what does it actually mean? The Black Sea is hemmed in by Turkey. Beyond that, it lets out into the mediterranean. Beyond that, they already had the naval base there.

2) Pathway for delivering fossil fuels to parts of Europe.

And it wasn’t before?

3) Food source.

142 palmerskiss  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 3:15:32pm

re: #130 Ming

You make a good point that we should always be aware of trends and allegiances within the area in question (in this case, Crimea). Frankly, though, there is such a thing as “jumping the gun”. We may as well say “oh what the heck, California is leaning towards becoming part of Mexico anyway.”

I would also disagree that the rest of the world has already decided that this is not worth fighting over. Of course, at this stage, we should all want to avoid violence. Europe has deep business ties with Russia; no one should want to see those accomplishments reversed.

But let’s not be too quick to underestimate the world’s response. I happen to work with a few people in Poland, and I’m confident that many Poles are very concerned about all this.

agreed - “We may as well say “oh what the heck, California is leaning towards becoming part of Mexico anyway.”” 19th century partitions tend to be more resilient than 20th century partitions.

143 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 3:15:58pm
144 freetoken  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 3:19:12pm

re: #141 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

The point is, Putin and his associates are ensuring that what we call “Ukraine” will continue to be what they need it do be, for the indefinite future.

One thing that strikes me about Obama’s message is this:

In this century, we are long past the days …

Point being, POTUS knows all too well (and what Tea Paryting revisionist historians ignore) that Putin is acting not unlike what we, the US, used to do. The idealism of a cooperating “international community” is an aspiration, and most definitely not a description of the past.

145 CuriousLurker  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 3:19:14pm

re: #136 Pie-onist Overlord

I can’t help but ask, is that powder toxic?

I’ve often wonder about that myself. I work with paints sometimes, some of which contain toxic pigments. The red cosmetic powder that Hindu women use, sindoor, is traditionally vermilion, which comes from the toxic mercury-containing cinnabar. There were a lot of old cosmetics that were toxic.

146 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 3:20:41pm

re: #137 freetoken

1) As justanothermom pointed out, the Black Sea is to the USSR what, say, the Gulf of Mexico is to us.
2) Pathway for delivering fossil fuels to parts of Europe.
3) Food source.

They had all of that before. Black Sea port leases extend to almost 2050. The gas pipelines are protected by treaty, if Ukraine wants gas it has to pass the rest on to Europe. Ukraine needs to trade with Russia as for that gas, they need a market for their food. Russia has gained almost nothing resource wise that they didn’t already have. Certainly nothing of any real value, nothing crucial to their geopolitical interests.

This is all about revanchism and nostalgia. It’s an emotional response to Putin’s puppet Yanukovych fucking up, fleeing office and being replaced. It’s possible that the entire action is simply intended to be a distraction from the Kremlin’s own massive corruption and economic problems.

147 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 3:22:58pm

re: #144 freetoken

The point is, Putin and his associates are ensuring that what we call “Ukraine” will continue to be what they need it do be, for the indefinite future.

I’m asking ‘what do they need it to be’?

148 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 3:23:30pm
149 freetoken  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 3:23:33pm

re: #146 goddamnedfrank

Agree that part of this is simply backwards looking Putin and his cronies.

This:

The gas pipelines are protected by treaty, if Ukraine wants gas it has to pass the rest on to Europe.

… has to be put into context, which is, treaties are made paper and carry weight when backed up by a gun. We may all consider this very “backwards”, but Putin is simply putting gunboat diplomacy in action.

150 Dr Lizardo  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 3:23:43pm

re: #146 goddamnedfrank

This is all about revanchism and nostalgia. It’s an emotional response to Putin’s puppet Yanukovych fucking up, fleeing office and being replaced. It’s possible that the entire action is simply intended to be a distraction from the Kremlin’s own massive corruption and economic problems.

This.

That’s exactly what it is. It’s straight-up revanchism.

151 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 3:23:53pm

re: #145 CuriousLurker

I’ve often wonder about that myself. I work with paints sometimes, some of which contain toxic pigments. The red cosmetic powder that Hindu women use, sindoor, is traditionally vermilion, which comes from the toxic mercury-containing cinnabar. There were a lot of old cosmetics that were toxic.

Lead, used to make faces very, very white.

152 FemNaziBitch  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 3:24:06pm

bbl

153 freetoken  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 3:24:15pm

re: #147 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

I’m asking ‘what do they need it to be’?

Theirs.

154 CuriousLurker  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 3:27:45pm

re: #121 Killgore Trout

If you lived in India as a kid and haven’t seen this, you might enjoy it—lots of incredible color, textures, and faces:

National Geographic: The Last Roll of Kodachrome

Youtube Video

155 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 3:28:23pm

re: #141 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

A place where hurricanes come from? “Warm water port” is fun to say, but what does it actually mean? The Black Sea is hemmed in by Turkey. Beyond that, it lets out into the mediterranean. Beyond that, they already had the naval base there.

And it wasn’t before?

It’s also a much frequented tourist destination as well for Russians. Many vacation there.

Ukraine is important to Russia’s gas lines as well; getting Siberian gas to Europe is imperative through Ukraine, as shown in this map. It was much cheaper for Russia to build those gas lines through Ukraine rather than under the Black Sea, BTW. They saved billions by doing that, so they’ve had a huge interest in keeping someone in power in Ukraine that would deliver, as Yanuk and others did.

Image: crimea3.png

156 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 3:28:31pm

re: #153 freetoken

Theirs.

Okay dude, if you don’t want to actually give your opinion, that’s fine.

I agree with Frank: As I’ve said, I think they’ve basically had to do this because of that massively nationalist path they’ve put them on. I don’t think it actually gains them anything, strategically, or even politically, it just buys them a little more time and credibility internally, while burning money and goodwill like it’s going out of style.

157 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 3:29:01pm

re: #155 Justanotherhuman

Why on earth would Ukraine not ‘deliver’ no matter who was in charge?

158 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 3:30:26pm

re: #149 freetoken

Agree that part of this is simply backwards looking Putin and his cronies.

This:

… has to be put into context, which is, treaties are made paper and carry weight when backed up by a gun. We may all consider this very “backwards”, but Putin is simply putting gunboat diplomacy in action.

Um, the only person tearing up treaties is Putin. If he’s afraid that treaties are only made of paper he’s the one proving it. Nobody with any sense will trust his government ever again. It will take a very long time for any foreign government to trust any future Russian government, no matter what future reforms take place.

Also, over a year ago Putin put a plan in place to become the world’s biggest food exporter. That was before Yanukovych’s departure, before Maidan, before all this. Russia’s short term plans are to obviate the need for even moderate food imports. They don’t need Ukraine for food.

President Vladimir Putin has set an ambitious goal to lead the world food export markets, while players say state aid is essential to help fully realize Russia’s great potential.

Russia needs to start independently providing for its domestic food needs in about 3 - 4 years and then become the world’s 𡅡 food supplier. “This opens up colossal new opportunities for us,” Putin told the Federal Assembly.

159 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 3:33:57pm

re: #157 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Why on earth would Ukraine not ‘deliver’ no matter who was in charge?

Because it wasn’t just a matter of “delivery”, it was a matter of doing as Moscow wanted, not what Ukraine itself did.

I would be very, very nervous if I lived in Ukraine and had to go up against the monster known as the Russian Federation. I don’t think it’s so odd that Ukrainian nationalism is so strong in this context; better that than to be swallowed up by the Russians.

160 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 3:34:50pm

re: #159 Justanotherhuman

Because it wasn’t just a matter of “delivery”, it was a matter of doing as Moscow wanted, not what Ukraine itself did.

Okay, I’m sorry, ‘deliver’ was your word. What do you mean by ‘doing as Moscow wanted’? Doing in what way? Are we still talking about the gas lines or something else?

I would be very, very nervous if I lived in Ukraine and had to go up against the monster known as the Russian Federation. I don’t think it’s so odd that Ukrainian nationalism is so strong in this context; better that than to be swallowed up by the Russians.

I don’t think it’s odd either.

161 Pie-onist Overlord  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 3:35:27pm

re: #151 FemNaziBitch

Lead, used to make faces very, very white.

Arsenic.

162 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 3:35:30pm

re: #154 CuriousLurker

If you lived in India as a kid and haven’t seen this, you might enjoy it—lots of incredible color, textures, and faces:

>National Geographic: The Last Roll of Kodachrome

[Embedded content]

Beautiful documentary. Depressing in someways to a film shooter, but his work is always so glorious that I can’t help but feel that giving him that roll of film was one of the very few things Kodak has done right in the last 20 years.

164 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 3:36:12pm

re: #157 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Why on earth would Ukraine not ‘deliver’ no matter who was in charge?

Yeah, it’s paranoid logic taken to a ridiculous conclusion. No Ukrainian government would knowingly condemn their country to a bloody invasion and occupation.

In fact invasion is the only thing that could even theoretically threaten the pipelines. Ukrainian forces could plant charges and detonate them simply to deny the enemy. I very much doubt this would happen even in war, and there’s zero chance that the Ukrainians would jeopardize the flow of gas as long as peace remained even a remote possibility.

165 freetoken  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 3:44:39pm

In these days I’m having greater appreciation for FDR and Kissinger.

166 CuriousLurker  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 3:46:30pm

re: #151 FemNaziBitch

Lead, used to make faces very, very white.

Yep. I stopped using cosmetics several years ago, but graphic design background and artistic endeavors ensure that I continue to find the history of pigments fascinating. For example:

Suffering for beauty has ancient roots
From lead eyeliner to mercury makeup, killer cosmetics over the decades

History of cosmetics
Wikipedia

167 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 3:46:59pm

re: #160 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Okay, I’m sorry, ‘deliver’ was your word. What do you mean by ‘doing as Moscow wanted’? Doing in what way? Are we still talking about the gas lines or something else?

I don’t think it’s odd either.

Well, the impression I got when all of this started to heat up, was that Yanuk was very much behind the rejection of the European Union and keeping ties to Russia intact, as were most of the oligarchs who got rich at the same time those in Russia did, and by the same methods. I also thought that those old ties that were forced on Ukraine all those years ago by the Soviet Union were ripe for destruction, but obviously there were those in the Ukrainian govt that thought otherwise. This article from The Economist, Nov 2013, explains it somewhat, but I think Yanuk was under extreme pressure from Putin and caved, giving up his country’s chances to move forward.

economist.com

168 CuriousLurker  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 3:48:07pm

re: #162 William Barnett-Lewis

Beautiful documentary. Depressing in someways to a film shooter, but his work is always so glorious that I can’t help but feel that giving him that roll of film was one of the very few things Kodak has done right in the last 20 years.

QFT

When I was a kid that what I wanted to be, a NatGeo photographer.

169 palmerskiss  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 3:48:11pm

MSNBC Video

that is a great article - but ethically sourced and standards should allow us into a sustainable cosmetic future…i hope…

170 HappyWarrior  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 3:50:33pm

re: #168 CuriousLurker

QFT

When I was a kid that what I wanted to be, a NatGeo photographer.

I always loved their documentaries since they just took you to a corner of the globe that seemed so far away and much more unique than the suburbia I grew up with. We went to the Nat Geo museum a few times when I was a kid too and that was always a neat experience. Plus i have their theme music in my head. Doo-doo-doo-something-something :).

171 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 3:53:37pm

re: #170 HappyWarrior

I always loved their documentaries since they just took you to a corner of the globe that seemed so far away and much more unique than the suburbia I grew up with. We went to the Nat Geo museum a few times when I was a kid too and that was always a neat experience. Plus i have their theme music in my head. Doo-doo-doo-something-something :).

MP3 Audio

172 urbanmeemaw  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 3:54:49pm

re: #94 ObserverArt

Same here in Cincinnati. Temp is made colder by brisk wind. Gray and nasty out there, but no precipitation. I ran a 9.3 mi race this morning and managed to stay warm until I hit the finish line, then the wind really whipped up. It was a cold, .8 mile trek back to my car!

173 HappyWarrior  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 3:55:27pm

re: #171 William Barnett-Lewis

[Embedded content]

Yep thanks! Was this John Williams composed?

174 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 3:57:04pm

re: #173 HappyWarrior

Yep thanks! Was this John Williams composed?

Theme fanfare music[edit]

The National Geographic Channel’s signature theme fanfare music, which is played at the beginning of many of the channel’s television programs, is composed by Elmer Bernstein. It was originally composed in 1964 for the Society’s television specials, which were broadcast on CBS, ABC, PBS and NBC from 1964 until the early 2000s.

en.wikipedia.org

175 HappyWarrior  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 3:57:45pm

re: #174 William Barnett-Lewis

en.wikipedia.org

Ah the late Elmer Bernstein. Thanks. Hearing that brought back a lot of memories.

176 CuriousLurker  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 3:58:47pm

re: #162 William Barnett-Lewis

BTW, did you catch the part about his archive? “I probably have an archive of around 800,000 slides.” Must be worth a king’s ransom.

My dad also used Kodachrome slide film, then had prints developed from them. The richness of the colors was amazing, and watching the slideshows on an old roll-up screen was dazzling. I can still smell it—the screen, slides, boxes, warm projector, etc. ;)

Computers have changed so many things. Not just photography, but also writing. Just as we can now immediately see if our shot “worked” or not (and discard it if it didn’t), when writing we can copy, paste, easily move entire paragraphs, etc. I think it probably affects how we express ourselves in both mediums more than we might realize. There’s less thought required before doing something, and once done, there’s no real long-term commitment.

177 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 4:03:45pm

Crimean Vote to Join Russia Divides Ukrainian Families

Personal Divisions Are Often Generational, Reflect Broader Split Within Ukraine

online.wsj.com

“When Galina Khromtsova urged her daughter Yulia to come home to Crimea and vote for the peninsula to join Russia, she says she froze when she heard her response.

“Mama, I’m for Ukraine!” Yulia Khromtsova told her last week from Kiev, where the 24-year-old works as a photo editor for a glossy magazine.

“I was shocked,” her mother recalled.” More

178 Decatur Deb  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 4:05:14pm

re: #176 CuriousLurker

BTW, did you catch the part about his archive? “I probably have an archive of around 800,000 slides.” Must be worth a king’s ransom.

My dad also used Kodachrome slide film, then had prints developed form them. The richness of the colors was amazing, and watching the slideshows on an old roll-op screen was dazzling. I can still smell it—the film, the boxes, etc. ;)

Computers have changed so many things. Not just photography, but also writing. Just as we can now immediately see if our shot “worked” or not (and discard it if it didn’t), when writing we can copy, paste, easily move entire paragraphs, etc. I think it probably affects how we express ourselves in both mediums more than we might realize. There’s less thought required before doing something, and once done, there’s no real long-term commitment.

Real formula for disposable-diaper art.

179 HappyWarrior  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 4:05:20pm

re: #177 Justanotherhuman

Crimean Vote to Join Russia Divides Ukrainian Families

Personal Divisions Are Often Generational, Reflect Broader Split Within Ukraine

online.wsj.com

“When Galina Khromtsova urged her daughter Yulia to come home to Crimea and vote for the peninsula to join Russia, she says she froze when she heard her response.

“Mama, I’m for Ukraine!” Yulia Khromtsova told her last week from Kiev, where the 24-year-old works as a photo editor for a glossy magazine.

“I was shocked,” her mother recalled.” More

I fear Civil War. That seems to be the story with every civil war in history. Divided families.

180 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 4:06:34pm

Actually this is a statement from the WH.

Readout of President Obama’s call with President Putin

kyivpost.com

Editor’s Note: The White House released the following statement about President Barack Obama’s call on March 16 with Russian President Vladimir Putin.

181 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 4:07:34pm

re: #176 CuriousLurker

There is still a joy to be had in running a roll of ISO100 120 roll film through my Rolleicord III that can’t be touched by hours of shooting my digital. I actually like my Olympus E-PL1, don’t get me wrong. But to only have 12 shots and then have to soup it before you can see what, if anything, you got? That’s the way it should be.

I read a story to my son earlier today about Richard Avedon and found this picture to illustrate who he was to him. Considering he was shooting Ms. Loren with a Rolleiflex, it seems appropriate here…

182 Pie-onist Overlord  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 4:09:09pm

Back in the ‘90’s I was totally into Civil War, I could have bought an original copy of “12 Years A Slave” for $300. Instead I bought a reprint.

Oh well.

183 HappyWarrior  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 4:09:28pm

Hey remember Paul Ryan using a racist source to make bigoted statements about black people? Reince Preibus has someone to blame and it’s shockingly not Paul Ryan but the Dems. The party of personal responsibility strikes again.
politicususa.com

184 Pie-onist Overlord  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 4:10:15pm
185 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 4:10:31pm

re: #179 HappyWarrior

I fear Civil War. That seems to be the story with every civil war in history. Divided families.

I hope not, and I didn’t see the story that way. Did you notice what the mother said? I think for many of the older Russians, this is nostalgia for the old Soviet Union, and they are going to be disappointed at their prospects when reality strikes.

“For older people such as 58-year-old Galina, who runs a small children’s-clothing stand in Sevastopol where Russia’s Black Sea Fleet is based, Sunday’s referendum offers a return to a more comfortable Soviet past and an escape from the hardship she says has defined her experience of independent Ukraine.

“We lived in Ukraine all this time, and no one has ever needed us. We haven’t had a single decent president, but in Russia they have Vladimir Putin, who really works,” she said, calling him “our savior.”

“We feel like we’re going home, to mom, dad, relatives, close people. It’ll be like Soviet times, or maybe better,” she said. That is the political message that has ensured Mr. Putin strong support for years in Russia, where many voters have been willing to trade political freedom for prosperity and stability, richly overlaid with Soviet nostalgia. Indeed, many people of Mr. Putin and the elder Ms. Khromtsova’s generation view the Soviet collapse as a tragedy that brought only humiliation and hardship. “

186 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 4:11:01pm

re: #184 Pie-onist Overlord

[Embedded content]

Wow.

187 Decatur Deb  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 4:12:04pm

re: #181 William Barnett-Lewis

There is still a joy to be had in running a roll of ISO100 120 roll film through my Rolleicord III that can’t be touched by hours of shooting my digital. I actually like my Olympus E-PL1, don’t get me wrong. But to only have 12 shots and then have to soup it before you can see what, if anything, you got? That’s the way it should be.

I read a story to my son earlier today about Richard Avedon and found this picture to illustrate who he was to him. Considering he was shooting Ms. Loren with a Rolleiflex, it seems appropriate here…
[Embedded image]

At about the time 4x5 Speed Graphics were losing the photojournalism
market to 35mm, someone described the new wave as “trigger-happy beatniks”. Probably Weegee.

188 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 4:12:40pm

re: #22 Stanley Sea

Where is D_F?

I was out. I’m back now.

189 Pie-onist Overlord  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 4:13:17pm

re: #186 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Wow.

Doesn’t happen too often.

190 CuriousLurker  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 4:13:20pm

re: #181 William Barnett-Lewis

Great photo! I doubt it was possible to take a bad shot of Sophia Loren. ;o)

191 Dave In Austin  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 4:13:34pm

re: #186 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Bravo!!

192 Pie-onist Overlord  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 4:14:21pm

MOAR “Stab Me In The Stomach” Gun Pr0n. Makes me think that “California Gal” is really a dude.

193 HappyWarrior  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 4:14:47pm

re: #185 Justanotherhuman

I hope not, and I didn’t see the story that way. Did you notice what the mother said? I think for many of the older Russians, this is nostalgia for the old Soviet Union, and they are going to be disappointed at their prospects when reality strikes.

“For older people such as 58-year-old Galina, who runs a small children’s-clothing stand in Sevastopol where Russia’s Black Sea Fleet is based, Sunday’s referendum offers a return to a more comfortable Soviet past and an escape from the hardship she says has defined her experience of independent Ukraine.

“We lived in Ukraine all this time, and no one has ever needed us. We haven’t had a single decent president, but in Russia they have Vladimir Putin, who really works,” she said, calling him “our savior.”

“We feel like we’re going home, to mom, dad, relatives, close people. It’ll be like Soviet times, or maybe better,” she said. That is the political message that has ensured Mr. Putin strong support for years in Russia, where many voters have been willing to trade political freedom for prosperity and stability, richly overlaid with Soviet nostalgia. Indeed, many people of Mr. Putin and the elder Ms. Khromtsova’s generation view the Soviet collapse as a tragedy that brought only humiliation and hardship. “

I hope not too but it really seems to me in my albeit limited readings about Ukraine that you have one part that is heavily pro Russia based on yeah nostagia for the old USSR and another that is pro-Western. It does seem to be generational. Anyhow, hoping for the best.

194 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 4:16:14pm

re: #187 Decatur Deb

At about the time 4x5 Speed Graphics were losing the photojournalism
market to 35mm, someone described the new wave as “trigger-happy beatniks”. Probably Weegee.

Heh. Got a couple of them too.

But it does point out that the tools change but the images remain. Film will remain a small niche, much as oil painting is today, but neither will go completely away even though digital will become all anyone sees.

You see the Colin Powell Selfie the other day? Holding a little Kodak Signet 35… ;)

195 Internet Tough Guy  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 4:17:20pm

re: #192 Pie-onist Overlord

Not pictured: Basic gun safety

196 HappyWarrior  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 4:17:37pm

re: #192 Pie-onist Overlord

MOAR “Stab Me In The Stomach” Gun Pr0n. Makes me think that “California Gal” is really a dude.

[Embedded content]

Yeah I’d be shocked if that wasn’t a guy. That just oozes stock photo.

197 HappyWarrior  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 4:18:05pm

re: #195 Internet Tough Guy

Not pictured: Basic gun safety

It’s gun pornography. Safety doesn’t have to come into it.

198 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 4:19:01pm

re: #197 HappyWarrior

It’s gun pornography. Safety doesn’t have to come into it.

Well, its stupid dangerous and offensive is what it is.

199 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 4:19:35pm

re: #192 Pie-onist Overlord

I don’t think “Sue Hasty” is a woman, either.

twitter.com

200 HappyWarrior  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 4:21:23pm

re: #198 Dark_Falcon

Well, its stupid dangerous and offensive is what it is.

Well yeah. I mean. I find it childish above all else. Oh an attractive lady with a gun, that means we should totally not have a reasonable discussion about guns. It’s done to give idiots a hard on and nothing else.

201 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 4:21:50pm

re: #192 Pie-onist Overlord

MOAR “Stab Me In The Stomach” Gun Pr0n. Makes me think that “California Gal” is really a dude.

[Embedded content]

Strange photo. Mid-70’s - early-80’s M-16A1/AR-15 on top of a WWII era armored vehicle (looks like an M3 tank) in a studio (that background is painted).

202 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 4:23:11pm

I don’t know why that WSJ article didn’t come up as a full story, because I linked it from google. But you can read the entire thing if you google Crimean Vote to Join Russia Divides Ukrainian Families which should show up at the top of the page, just click on that.

203 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 4:26:59pm

re: #201 William Barnett-Lewis

Strange photo. Mid-70’s - early-80’s M-16A1/AR-15 on top of a WWII era armored vehicle (looks like an M3 tank) in a studio (that background is painted).

I see that like me you have cultivated the art of examining the technical details of a photo as a way to avoid injuring yourself banging your head against your desk due to its stupidity.

204 Dr Lizardo  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 4:28:42pm

With regard to Crimea, this will probably result in an economic cold war with Russia, like the first one the Russians lost and will probably lose again. Russia may well have the largest land-mass, immense resources and a good-sized army, but economically they’re second rate; a one-sided commodity economy overly dependent on resource export, a blatantly corrupt and kleptocratic government and an ancient, decrepit infrastructure badly in need of repair.

The Russian ruble has been cratering for a while now and so has their stock exchange; the Russian Central Bank is having to spend billions in an effort to prop up the ruble, and after this bullshit stunt, the ruble is going to get hit hard yet again.. Crimea adopting the ruble won’t save them and frankly, Crimea annexing itself to Russia will very likely end up becoming economically isolated and backward - a poor oblast. Tourism will be isolated to the Russian market only and its exports will probably suffer sanctions. It’s a lose/lose all around, but mostly for the Crimeans and the Russians. Ukraine will shift clearly towards the West, the former Eastern Bloc nation-states (not to mention the EU) will distrust Russia even more and the political divide between East and West will pretty much end up right on Russia’s western borders, maybe with the exception of Lukashenko in Belarus, but he’s sort of an anomaly.

205 HappyWarrior  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 4:29:21pm

re: #203 Dark_Falcon

I see that like me you have cultivated the art of examining the technical details of a photo as a way to avoid injuring yourself banging your head against your desk due to its stupidity.

Sometimes you just gotta laugh. That’s what I do with these photos. Ooh a scantily clad woman posing with a gun in an obvious wingnut catfish. I mean I get it, it’s a lot more fun to look at than if she were posing responsibly and was wearing goggles and some other form of protection. What’s funny is the people who post these actually think they’re fooling people.

206 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 4:33:55pm

re: #205 HappyWarrior

Sometimes you just gotta laugh. That’s what I do with these photos. Ooh a scantily clad woman posing with a gun in an obvious wingnut catfish. I mean I get it, it’s a lot more fun to look at than if she were posing responsibly and was wearing goggles and some other form of protection. What’s funny is the people who post these actually think they’re fooling people.

It’s the finger inside the trigger guard that really cements the stupidity for me. Anyone who really knows about guns or even someone who has been properly taught by such a person knows that you never, ever, put your finger near the trigger unless you a preparing to actually fire the gun.

Check all those photos of Russian soldiers we’ve seen recently. Any photo of them doing other than the one where the Russian actually fired warning shots will show their fingers clearly outside of the trigger guard.

207 HappyWarrior  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 4:35:29pm

re: #206 Dark_Falcon

It’s the finger inside the trigger guard that really cements the stupidity for me. Anyone who really knows about guns or even someone who has been properly taught by such a person knows that you never, >ever, put your finger near the trigger unless you a preparing to actually fire the gun.

Check all those photos of Russian soldiers we’ve seen recently. Any photo of them doing other than the one where the Russian actually fired warning shots will show their fingers clearly outside of the trigger guard.

Right, it is stupid. Really haven’t seen the photos but I do know what you mean because I do remember the instructions I got from my buddy when I went target shooting a couple winters back.

208 CuriousLurker  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 4:42:11pm

re: #181 William Barnett-Lewis

P.S. I adore all things digital, however that need to slow down and connect with what I’m doing, to produce something tangible, something human, is what got me started with painting & block printing (amongst a host of other arts & crafts type stuff). Oh, also using fountain pens & dip pens—sooooo radically different than typing or even ballpoint pens. You can feel everything and all of it matters: the flexibility of the nib, the angle at which you hold the pen, where you hold the pen, how much pressure you apply, the texture of the paper, the viscosity of the ink and its tendency to feather (or not), its shading qualities…

You don’t just grab the pen & start writing. You prepare; choose the right nib, ink & paper; make a few test strokes on paper, then a few in the air before actually putting pen to paper… but OMG, the personality of line you can get!

209 Dr Lizardo  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 4:46:35pm

Meanwhile, in Serbia, what would seem to be good news, though I confess I really don’t follow Serbian politics:

The ruling Serbian Progressive Party (SNS) has won a big parliamentary majority in the general election, vote monitors say.

Based on a partial count, the Cesid polling group said the centre-right party won almost 49% of the vote, or 157 seats in the 250-seat parliament.

The Socialists, coalition partners for the SNS, were running second with 15%.

SNS leader Aleksandar Vucic, 44, is now poised to become the country’s next prime minister.

“They will have a majority” in parliament, Cesid chief Marko Blagojevic told reporters, referring to the SNS.

If confirmed, it will be the first time in Serbia’s short democratic history that one party has won an overall majority in parliament.

The party’s success in the polls is seen as driven by its anti-corruption campaign and by its move to start EU membership talks.

His party is also credited with normalising relations with Kosovo.

bbc.com

I get the feeling Putin ain’t gonna like that too much; a pro-EU party winning an outright parliamentary majority and determined to bring Serbia into the EU.

210 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 4:47:32pm

re: #204 Dr Lizardo

With regard to Crimea, this will probably result in an economic cold war with Russia, like the first one the Russians lost and will probably lose again. Russia may well have the largest land-mass, immense resources and a good-sized army, but economically they’re second rate; a one-sided commodity economy overly dependent on resource export, a blatantly corrupt and kleptocratic government and an ancient, decrepit infrastructure badly in need of repair.

The Russian ruble has been cratering for a while now and so has their stock exchange; the Russian Central Bank is having to spend billions in an effort to prop up the ruble, and after this bullshit stunt, the ruble is going to get hit hard yet again.. Crimea adopting the ruble won’t save them and frankly, Crimea annexing itself to Russia will very likely end up becoming economically isolated and backward - a poor oblast. Tourism will be isolated to the Russian market only and its exports will probably suffer sanctions. It’s a lose/lose all around, but mostly for the Crimeans and the Russians. Ukraine will shift clearly towards the West, the former Eastern Bloc nation-states (not to mention the EU) will distrust Russia even more and the political divide between East and West will pretty much end up right on Russia’s western borders, maybe with the exception of Lukashenko in Belarus, but he’s sort of an anomaly.

Excellent analysis. You know eastern Europe and the former Soviets well.
: )

211 GlutenFreeJesus  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 4:48:24pm

re: #209 Dr Lizardo

Meanwhile, in Serbia, what would seem to be good news, though I confess I really don’t follow Serbian politics:

bbc.com

I get the feeling Putin ain’t gonna like that too much; a pro-EU party winning an outright parliamentary majority and determined to bring Serbia into the EU.

He may just invade them next.

212 HappyWarrior  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 4:48:35pm

re: #209 Dr Lizardo

Meanwhile, in Serbia, what would seem to be good news, though I confess I really don’t follow Serbian politics:

bbc.com

I get the feeling Putin ain’t gonna like that too much; a pro-EU party winning an outright parliamentary majority and determined to bring Serbia into the EU.

That is good news. And it seems like that party is of the left. Broadly speaking in Eastern European politics, the left wing parties aren’t as fiercely nationalistic. So yeah hopefully Putin lost an ally and the west has gained one. I am not too knowledgable on Serbian politics either though.

213 HappyWarrior  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 4:49:18pm

re: #211 GlutenFreeJesus

He may just invade them next.

He’d have to go through more than a few countries to do that.

214 Dr Lizardo  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 4:49:24pm

re: #211 GlutenFreeJesus

He may just invade them next.

lol

Putin: “Hey….why stop now? I’m on a roll!!”

215 Dr Lizardo  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 4:53:05pm

re: #210 Justanotherhuman

I just think this will do nothing but drive Ukraine right into the waiting arms of the EU.

You know, if the Germans really wanna fuck with the Russians, start making noises about Kaliningrad Oblast - known better to us history buffs as Nord-Ostpreussen.

Heh….the Russians will really start squealing at that point. Where will they able to produce their JinLing cigarettes; the only smokes in the world deliberately designed for cigarette smuggling and being sold on the black market?

lolol

216 HappyWarrior  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 4:53:28pm

Speaking of Serbian, was there any more word on those Chetniks that photos were posted of? I figured those were volunteers from outside the Serbian gov’t.

217 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 4:53:52pm

No doubt this is an aftershock, and the original has been downgraded to a 6.7.

Earthquake magnitude 4.9, 84 kilometers west-northwest of Iquique, Chile - @usgs

earthquake.usgs.gov

218 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 4:56:43pm
219 Lidane  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 4:57:37pm

Sounds about right:


220 HappyWarrior  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 4:59:48pm

re: #218 Justanotherhuman

[Embedded content]

Good. For all the shit the Irish have taken over the years, St. Paddy’s days parades should be no place for bigotry of any kind.

221 Lidane  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 5:00:24pm

re: #218 Justanotherhuman

So far, that means that Guinness, Heineken and Sam Adams have pulled out from different St. Patty’s Day parades for being anti-LGBT.

Ain’t capitalism grand?

222 Dr Lizardo  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 5:01:07pm

re: #221 Lidane

So far, that means that Guinness, Heineken and Sam Adams have pulled out from different St. Patty’s Day parades for being anti-LGBT.

Ain’t capitalism grand?

It’s the invisible hand of the market flipping the bird to the bigots.

Good.

223 HappyWarrior  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 5:01:19pm

re: #221 Lidane

So far, that means that Guinness, Heineken and Sam Adams have pulled out from different St. Patty’s Day parades for being anti-LGBT.

Ain’t capitalism grand?

Ah, I had not heard about Heineken. I think the only really wingnutty beer company is Coors and honestly their beer is nothing to write home about. All three those are good brews though and glad to see run by good people too.

224 Targetpractice  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 5:01:36pm

re: #221 Lidane

So far, that means that Guinness, Heineken and Sam Adams have pulled out from different St. Patty’s Day parades for being anti-LGBT.

Ain’t capitalism grand?

That sound of breaking glass you hear is wingnuts clearing out their fridges. “I can’t drink no queer beer!!!”

225 HappyWarrior  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 5:02:15pm

re: #222 Dr Lizardo

It’s the invisible hand of the market flipping the bird to the bigots.

Good.

Yep and wingnuts who don’t understand capitalism will be outraged. Fischer was demanding that Sam Adams change its name because the original Sam Adams “opposed sodomy” somehow I doubt Sam Adams thought about two people of the same sex loving each other his whole life as much as Bryan does in a day.

226 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 5:02:52pm

re: #221 Lidane

So far, that means that Guinness, Heineken and Sam Adams have pulled out from different St. Patty’s Day parades for being anti-LGBT.

Ain’t capitalism grand?

Withhold the greenbacks. : )

227 HappyWarrior  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 5:02:53pm

re: #224 Targetpractice

That sound of breaking glass you hear is wingnuts clearing out their fridges. “I can’t drink no queer beer!!!”

They can’t drink Coke either since Coke speaks other languages now.

228 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 5:04:00pm

re: #224 Targetpractice

That sound of breaking glass you hear is wingnuts clearing out their fridges. “I can’t drink no queer beer!!!”

I think they only drink Bud and PBR anyway. : )

229 GlutenFreeJesus  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 5:04:16pm

re: #213 HappyWarrior

He’d have to go through more than a few countries to do that.

He can (try to) take them on the way there!

230 HappyWarrior  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 5:05:09pm

re: #229 GlutenFreeJesus

He can (try to) take them on the way there!

Hello Moldova, hello father.

231 Dr Lizardo  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 5:05:14pm

re: #225 HappyWarrior

Yep and wingnuts who don’t understand capitalism will be outraged. Fischer was demanding that Sam Adams change its name because the original Sam Adams “opposed sodomy” somehow I doubt Sam Adams thought about two people of the same sex loving each other his whole life as much as Bryan does in a day.

lololol

Yeah, Fischer is absolutely obsessed with the subject.

232 Lidane  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 5:05:36pm

re: #227 HappyWarrior

They can’t drink Coke either since Coke speaks other languages now.

They can’t drink Pepsi either, since it’s run by a Hindu woman and a Muslim man.

233 GlutenFreeJesus  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 5:05:41pm

re: #230 HappyWarrior

Hello Modova, hello father.

There’s always the installation of a puppet government too!

234 HappyWarrior  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 5:07:38pm

re: #231 Dr Lizardo

lololol

Yeah, Fischer is absolutely obsessed with the subject.

I mean honestly it’s one thing ot think homosexuality is a sin, I think that’s a wrong view very much but it’s another to flip one’s shit because a privately owned beer company isn’t participating because they think anti-gay bs is wrong or just as more likely bad for business. Old Bryan doesn’t understand that gays are consumers in this economy of ours too.

235 HappyWarrior  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 5:08:40pm

re: #232 Lidane

They can’t drink Pepsi either, since it’s run by a Hindu woman and a Muslim man.

Great, well there’s always Wal-Mart brand cola right? Or is WM on the shit list now since they support minimum wage? And they can’t drink water because I’m sure “The wookie” has praised the virtues of fine quality H20.

236 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 5:09:13pm

re: #234 HappyWarrior

Not just consumers, but workers, too. Guinness doesn’t want to lose out on hiring talented employees by being known as a company where it’s okay to be bigots.

237 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 5:10:55pm

re: #235 HappyWarrior

Great, well there’s always Wal-Mart brand cola right? Or is WM on the shit list now since they support minimum wage? And they can’t drink water because I’m sure “The wookie” has praised the virtues of fine quality H20.

Rainwater and grain alcohol will always be wingnut-approved.

238 HappyWarrior  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 5:11:22pm

re: #236 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Not just consumers, but workers, too. Guinness doesn’t want to lose out on hiring talented employees by being known as a company where it’s okay to be bigots.

Yep, that too. Anyhow bravo to Guinness, they were my first over 21 beer and I’ve always enjoyed a Guinness on St. Paddy’s Day. You can be damn sure I will be having at least one tomorrow tomorrow.

239 HappyWarrior  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 5:12:08pm

re: #237 Dark_Falcon

Rainwater and grain alcohol will always be wingnut-approved.

Yeah if they want to have Everclear by all means, I’ll stick with Absinthe for the heavy going stuff since I can at least pretend I’m with Hemingway having that.

240 Lidane  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 5:12:24pm

re: #236 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Not just consumers, but workers, too. Guinness doesn’t want to lose out on hiring talented employees by being known as a company where it’s okay to be bigots.

That’s why a lot of major corporations are in favor of LGBT rights. They want the best talent they can get their hands on, and that means treating everyone like a human being. They can’t be bigots and expect to attract top flight candidates.

241 Dr Lizardo  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 5:12:47pm

re: #237 Dark_Falcon

Rainwater and grain alcohol will always be wingnut-approved.

RAINWATER AND GRAIN ALCOHOL IS GREAT FOR MAINTAINING ONE’S PURITY OF ESSENCE AND SUPPORTING PEACE ON EARTH!1!

242 HappyWarrior  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 5:13:37pm

re: #240 Lidane

That’s why a lot of major corporations are in favor of LGBT rights. They want the best talent they can get their hands on, and that means treating everyone like a human being. They can’t be bigots and expect to attract top flight candidates.

That’s why I think the Dems have smartly not been anti-business. Let the wingnuts alienate business by thinking anti-gay policies are good.

243 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 5:14:06pm

Corporate sell out claims mar SXSW

nzherald.co.nz

“Rapper ScHoolboy Q had a great time at his first South By Southwest a few years ago, but found himself getting angry this year as he played a series of shows at the annual music conference and festival.

“Everywhere he turned, his fans were standing outside venues festooned with corporate branding, unable to enter because they didn’t have a formal invite.

“It’s stupid. They changed it all up. It’s corporate,” he said as he prepared for a show Saturday. “I don’t ever want to come back unless they change it to where the fans are in. I’m tired of performing and seeing my fans outside the gate. … That’s not fair. It’s not about the fans no more, it’s all about money, who can give you the best look.” More

244 Backwoods_Sleuth  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 5:15:17pm

This is nice (and it’s kosher!):

Soup Kitchen Looks Like a Cafe, Offers a Side of Dignity

245 Pie-onist Overlord  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 5:18:42pm

HURR HURR

246 Pie-onist Overlord  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 5:20:12pm

I think that airplane is at the bottom of the Indian ocean.

Sorry, conspiracy theorists.

247 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 5:20:49pm

re: #245 Pie-onist Overlord

Rupert that is why The Wall Street Journal has an oversight panel because you are looking for the sensational story and not the news story.

248 Stanley Sea  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 5:21:29pm

re: #238 HappyWarrior

Yep, that too. Anyhow bravo to Guinness, they were my first over 21 beer and I’ve always enjoyed a Guinness on St. Paddy’s Day. You can be damn sure I will be having at least one tomorrow tomorrow.

Black & Tan

249 HappyWarrior  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 5:22:53pm

re: #248 Stanley Sea

Black & Tan

How about a Guinness and Smithwicks?

250 Stanley Sea  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 5:24:26pm

don’t know that Smithwicks. Always Harp & Guinness.

251 Lidane  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 5:26:00pm

re: #248 Stanley Sea

Black & Tan

Never, ever order that in Ireland. Black & Tan has a whole different meaning there.

In Ireland, it’s a Half and Half.

252 HappyWarrior  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 5:26:26pm

re: #251 Lidane

Never, ever order that in Ireland. Black & Tan has a whole different meaning there.

In Ireland, it’s a Half and Half.

Yep. Same thing with Irish Car Bomb for more obvious meanings.

253 HappyWarrior  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 5:27:15pm

re: #250 Stanley Sea

don’t know that Smithwicks. Always Harm & Guinness.

Yeah I think Harp would be more for the traditional and Lidane’s right, not a wise idea to call it by that name if one was in Ireland given the actual Black and Tans.

254 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 5:28:33pm

I wonder why this is so? Couldn’t have anything to do with your boy, could it, GG? Esp the national security stuff. Yeah, you are all pretty transparent yourselves.


255 Stanley Sea  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 5:29:09pm

Typoed Harp to make it all the more fucked up!!! (was in the kitchen)

256 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 5:29:13pm

re: #252 HappyWarrior

Yep. Same thing with Irish Car Bomb for more obvious meanings.

Also don’t order a “Cromwell Was Right” either.

257 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 5:30:25pm

re: #250 Stanley Sea

don’t know that Smithwicks. Always Harm & Guinness.

Assume you meant Harp. In my experience the commonest Black & Tan mixture is Guinness and Bass, although I was recently in Ohio and was offered one consisting of Guinness and Yuengling (meh). The server and whoever made the drink had never heard of using Bass, which surprised me.

258 HappyWarrior  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 5:32:43pm

re: #256 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Also don’t order a “Cromwell Was Right” either.

Ha nope. I’m fairly knowledgible of Irish history though so I know what to avoid. Definitely not one to wear Orange tomorrow either even though despite what people say, Irish nationalists and Republicans aren’t anti-Protestant.

259 Lidane  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 5:33:52pm

re: #257 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi

Assume you meant Harp. In my experience the commonest Black & Tan mixture is Guinness and Bass, although I was recently in Ohio and was offered one consisting of Guinness and Yuengling (meh). The server and whoever made the drink had never heard of using Bass, which surprised me.

I always assumed that the proper mix was Guinness and Harp since both labels have a harp on them. Heh.

260 HappyWarrior  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 5:34:50pm

I’m partial to boilermakers. Always make them homemade when I’ve got beer and whiskey which fortunately is often.

261 Political Atheist  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 5:35:54pm

re: #208 CuriousLurker

>P.S. I adore all things digital, however that need to slow down and connect with what I’m doing, to produce something tangible, something human, is what got me started with painting & block printing (amongst a host of other arts & crafts type stuff). Oh, also using fountain pens & dip pens—sooooo radically different than typing or even ballpoint pens. You can feel everything and all of it matters: the flexibility of the nib, the angle at which you hold the pen, where you hold the pen, how much pressure you apply, the texture of the paper, the viscosity of the ink and its tendency to feather (or not), its shading qualities…

You don’t just grab the pen & start writing. You prepare; choose the right nib, ink & paper; make a few test strokes on paper, then a few in the air before actually putting pen to paper… but OMG, the personality of line you can get!

What I like is the control digital gives me. And once I learned how CMOS deals with deep shadows (not so great) but has zero issues like “reciprocity” that can give film a weird color cast upon long exposures, I feel like I’m in more command of the look shot to shot than with film.

Lots to be said on this but at some point we embrace the best of what we have.

It would have been tough for a lab to get this exact look in a print for me in film.

Just my humble $.02 CL. We all approach this in our own way.

The analog part of my photography is elsewhere than the material holding the light. It’s where do I go and “what do I really want” from a given day or place? Composition is strictly analog right? I plan, I look at weather, I drive a couple hours then it’s on me to pull out a good day. Film or digital. Analog humanistic work and creativity. If I get much of that wrong medium is unimportant. Crap is crap.

Film photogs rarely show the proof sheets. Why? You see all the crap it takes to make a great shot. Sneaking up on the right exposure or filter. Digital photography is the same lots of shots dumped that represented our process to get “that” look. We see them in Bridge or Picasa. The delight at finding the one that is just right is just as strong. I love film for certain looks but that’s me adapting to the look that stock provides. In digital, I get to flip that coin.

Slowing down? That’s just not letting the immediacy of digital get in the way of good thorough discipline of camera handling, composition and post. Impatience makes digital flat and plain. Not the fact it’s all algorithms and processing in there somewhere.

262 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 5:36:35pm

re: #256 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Also don’t order a “Cromwell Was Right” either.

Oliver Cromwell left a bloody legacy that haunts the English-speaking world to this day (the Anglosphere’s general abhorrence of using the military for policing duties, even the case of riots, is an example), and nowhere was his hand heavier than in Ireland.

263 CuriousLurker  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 5:36:46pm

OT Drive-by: Heads-up if you’re on Facebook or see this tweeted.

‘Hijacker Video of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH 370’ is a Scam of Facebook

A viral Facebook post claims it has “breaking news” of a “hijacker video” of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH 370, but it’s only a scam.

There’s no footage of the plane being “hijacked” or anything else, as the airline has been missing since March 8. The scam post shows a picture of a Malaysia Airlines plane taking off with a play button over it. […]

When one clicks on the post claiming there’s a video, the user will be directed to a fake Facebook page that asks them to share it. This ensures that the scam is spread far and wide.

After the post is shared, users are directed to several websites that ask to download software, which isn’t recommended.

Some variants might ask users to complete bogus surveys that are designed to take personal information.

And other versions might ask users to download a rogue Facebook app. […]

theepochtimes.com

264 Justanotherhuman  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 5:36:59pm

re: #257 Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi

Yes, Guinness and Bass is “old school”. I used to drink Bass when I could get it—40 yrs ago. Stopped drinking much beer because it made me feel bloated, and then stopped drinking much of anything when I turned 40. : )

265 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 5:37:32pm

re: #251 Lidane

Never, ever order that in Ireland. Black & Tan has a whole different meaning there.

In Ireland, it’s a Half and Half.

Youtube Video

266 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 5:41:31pm

re: #262 Dark_Falcon

Oliver Cromwell left a bloody legacy that haunts the English-speaking world to this day (the Anglosphere’s general abhorrence of using the military for policing duties, even the case of riots, is an example), and nowhere was his hand heavier than in Ireland.

Actually, Cromwell was slightly more lenient and less bloodthirsty than the average general of his day.

267 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 5:46:03pm

re: #266 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Actually, Cromwell was slightly more lenient and less bloodthirsty than the average general of his day.

Given that his day encompassed the latter part of the 30-Years War, that ain’t sayin’ much.

268 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 5:47:25pm

re: #261 Political Atheist

Nice image. In the old days, it would be in b&w and calculating the zones would have been “interesting”.

That said, all the tools, analog & digital have their strengths and weaknesses. The main thing I need right now in photography is to find a way to afford the new Olympus 25/1.8 for m4/3. A fast standard prime is the finest kind of lens to my way of seeing the world.

269 Dr Lizardo  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 5:50:25pm

The crisis in Ukraine has also spurred some European countries to take another look at fracking:

todayszaman.com

270 jamesfirecat  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 5:51:00pm

re: #266 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Actually, Cromwell was slightly more lenient and less bloodthirsty than the average general of his day.

If nothing else, Cromwell was a more rational ruler than the man he replaced.

271 Political Atheist  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 5:52:47pm

Wow. Listening to CNN you would think the Ukraine has some obligation to let the result of the bogus referendum actually have impact. That’s a huge concession to Putin and wholly wrong. If Crimea can leave based on a bullshit gun at the head referendum how about Tatarstan? Chechneya? Mordovia? No problem right? Just tally up the vote and act accordingly.

That’s what is freaking out China. They don’t like this precedent one bit. But strategic allies must be accommodated so…. See/Hear/Speak no evil.

272 Pie-onist Overlord  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 5:55:59pm

re: #266 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Actually, Cromwell was slightly more lenient and less bloodthirsty than the average general of his day.

Cromwell lifted the Ban On Juice that had been enforced in England since the 13th Century.

273 RealityBasedSteve  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 6:02:37pm

Flogging Molly — Tobacco Island (just cuz it mentions Cromwell)

Youtube Video

RBS

274 chadu  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 6:03:42pm

re: #16 Stanley Sea

275 Political Atheist  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 6:05:19pm

re: #268 William Barnett-Lewis

Nice image. In the old days, it would be in b&w and calculating the zones would have been “interesting”.

That said, all the tools, analog & digital have their strengths and weaknesses. The main thing I need right now in photography is to find a way to afford the new Olympus 25/1.8 for m4/3. A fast standard prime is the finest kind of lens to my way of seeing the world.

I agree. Keep after the better glass. It’s our Siren and salvation for the best stuff. One thing I’m learning about getting the pro work. People accustomed to money and resources respond to real passion by way of contrast of their day to day. And they can provide just enough paid work to bootstrap.

276 chadu  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 6:31:00pm

re: #192 Pie-onist Overlord

MOAR “Stab Me In The Stomach” Gun Pr0n. Makes me think that “California Gal” is really a dude.

[Embedded content]

The sexually-integrated military* of GunFuckerLand has an interesting fashion sense.

* Oh, wait, despite the camouflaged military vehicle behind this lady (who must surely be chilly in that get-up), this is civilian and/or militia fashion. My bad.

277 chadu  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 6:44:40pm

re: #201 William Barnett-Lewis

Strange photo. Mid-70’s - early-80’s M-16A1/AR-15 on top of a WWII era armored vehicle (looks like an M3 tank) in a studio (that background is painted).

Mid-70’s - early-80’s M-16A1/AR-15: available for 80s movies.
on top of a WWII era armored vehicle: available cheaply for 80s movies.
in a studio: go to location for 80s movies.

WOLVERINES!

278 chadu  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 6:51:15pm

re: #246 Pie-onist Overlord

I think that airplane is at the bottom of the Indian ocean.

Sorry, conspiracy theorists.

I think that airplane is at the bottom of the Indian ocean… the next quantum universe over, having passed through a wormhole.

Yay, conspiracy theorists!

279 Dom  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 8:17:36pm

re: #108 freetoken

As an American I find I have little to no emotional attachment to anything that happens around the Black Sea. Frankly, it all seems so remote and outside of my sphere of “what I care about.” It’s all so far way.

That’s not a statement about the actions of any of the parties over there. It’s a statement on why the actions of parties over there mean so little.

I strongly suspect most Americans agree with me. Once you take out remnant Cold War reactions to the “Soviets”, how many Americans really care about Crimea? Recent Ukrainian immigrants probably, but outside of that?

It all seems so very far away.

An anti-establishment camp pretty well typified by Greenwald now has been especially strident throughout Putin’s time in control.

What you see as “remnant reactions” are just observations of how Putin sees things. He asserts himself against Europe not just in Ukraine but in Georgia and in his meddling in the affairs of several neighbours; and against Japan in the southern Kuril islands; and against America and NATO in every regard, acutely in the middle east. Certainly when Putin began cracking down on press dissent it was well noted, but there has been little complaint that much like Iran he was simultaneously broadcasting his official, hostile news on western networks.

Perhaps in his mind not just you but everyone has pretty much overlooked and in some cases lost ground in a 15-year long Cold War chapter, for fear of awakening the bear. I don’t wonder if they feel that way in Georgia. He has essentially been advancing his interests by way of a highly asymmetric war, perhaps full of deniable attacks.

An economic cold war will not arrest Putin’s current military progress, and Putin does still have a major ally in China not to mention a highly expanded portfolio of influence in the middle east. Aside from NATO assembling a credible force to man western borders with Russia, asymmetric thinking has to be the order of the day.

imho

280 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 8:22:55pm

re: #279 Dom

Why do you think China is an ally to Russia?

281 Dom  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 8:25:10pm

re: #280 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Because in 2001 Putin signed a 20 year pact with China.

282 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 8:33:07pm

re: #281 Dom

Because in 2001 Putin signed a 20 year pact with China.

Russia just tore up a treaty with the Ukraine and with other nations in order to invade the Crimea. Russian treaties aren’t really worth anything right now.

283 Dom  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 8:36:34pm

re: #282 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

That is chalk and cheese. The treaties you are referring to were Russia’s obligations on losing the Cold War. Russia’s treaty with China is for a military and economic pact.

284 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 10:06:12pm

re: #283 Dom

That is chalk and cheese. The treaties you are referring to were Russia’s obligations on losing the Cold War. Russia’s treaty with China is for a military and economic pact.

In addition to those treaties from the end of the cold war, there was also the Budapest memorandum, which Russia violated, and the Treaty of Friendship, Cooperation, and Partnership between Ukraine and the Russian Federation.

285 Dom  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 11:12:52pm

I do accept that correction but I doubt very much that his relationship with China bears any comparison to his relationship with the former USSR! Those are agreements Vladimir Putin did not sign. What he has torn up is perestroika.

286 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 11:22:48pm

re: #285 Dom

I do accept that correction but I doubt very much that his relationship with China bears any comparison to his relationship with the former USSR! Those are agreements Vladimir Putin did not sign. What he has torn up is perestroika.

No, he hasn’t torn up Perestroika, unless you have some very bizarre definition of it. Perestroika was in play in the USSR, in the 80s, at most up until 1991. You can’t call post-Soviet stuff perestroika.

I don’t know why you think that the fact that Russia feels okay in violating treaties if there’s been sufficient time passed or governmental change would be reassuring to China.

287 Dom  Sun, Mar 16, 2014 11:35:32pm

Perestroika was the softening of Soviet Statism, and yes it was in the decade before Putin took office. So Putin represents a major ideological reverse for Russia. No doubt China would be concerned if he started ignoring his own treaties but he hasn’t done that and it is a strange prospect to raise.

I don’t know if you just looked up perestroika but that and glasnost were buzzwords for the end of Russia’s Cold War stance. I could have said glasnost, my point is less technical than yours.

288 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Mon, Mar 17, 2014 3:53:53am

re: #287 Dom

Perestroika was the softening of Soviet Statism, and yes it was in the decade before Putin took office..

No, perestroika was two decades before Putin took office. You can’t really have a ‘softening of the Soviet state” without a soviet state, which ended in 1991. I’m talking about treaties signed after that.

289 Dom  Mon, Mar 17, 2014 8:36:38am

Not another petty distraction on this point. I admit I have not been checking my dates, just watching what has happened in my lifetime, and don’t much care about your diligence on the dates unless you want to argue they are relevant to the points concerning Putin’s agenda or possible outcomes.

I just post here sometimes to share an idea, and of course I might have to avoid being terribly contentious (I recently messed up on that and got frustrated by the ensuing replies, didn’t handle it especially well to stay on topic!) and explain my view, but nothing that you are saying is really material to my outlook on Mr KGB here and what I’ve said. Or is it?

If you don’t see perestroika and glasnost as a continuous process leading to all those agreements you mention I will just explain that I do, and that is the process that I am saying Putin is unravelling. It was the most massive thing to happen since WWII.

Has Putin abrogated agreements he signed?

With respect,

Dom

re: #279 Dom

290 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Mon, Mar 17, 2014 12:25:33pm

re: #289 Dom

Not another petty distraction on this point. I admit I have not been checking my dates, just watching what has happened in my lifetime, and don’t much care about your diligence on the dates unless you want to argue they are relevant to the points concerning Putin’s agenda or possible outcomes.

Of course they’re relevant. These are treaties signed by the Russian Federation. That Putin is now tearing them up communicates that Russia doesn’t value honoring treaties. I’m not sure what’s mysterious about this.

If you don’t see perestroika and glasnost as a continuous process leading to all those agreements you mention I will just explain that I do,

But that’s crazy. Peretroika and glastnost were things that happened in the USSR. We’re talking about the Russian Federation. I have no idea why you even brought them up, they’re entirely irrelevant.

The entire point of treaties is that they don’t depend on a single person, they’re between nations.

This isn’t even getting into the very real ways that, whatever treaty, Russia and China are competitors.

291 Dom  Mon, Mar 17, 2014 12:31:08pm

re: #290 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

We disagree about all of that, I believe my view is bearing out, and I think we have both made our views clear. Honestly thanks for engaging.

292 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Mon, Mar 17, 2014 12:32:40pm

re: #291 Dom

We disagree about all of that, I believe my view is bearing out, and I think we have both made our views clear. Honestly thanks for engaging.

I don’t think your view makes any sense at all. I mean, are you saying he’s tearing up perestroika as in he’s going to back to pre-perestroika USSR?

I don’t get how you think your view is bearing out: What is bearing out your view? What’s happening to support it?

293 Dom  Mon, Mar 17, 2014 12:47:46pm

re: #292 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

I don’t think your view makes any sense at all. I mean, are you saying he’s tearing up perestroika as in he’s going to back to pre-perestroika USSR?

He has returned to internal repression, outward hostility and dominating his neighbours. That’s what I called tearing up perestroika.

I don’t get how you think your view is bearing out: What is bearing out your view? What’s happening to support it?

Really you don’t get?

Did you notice the 10,000 pro-Putin protesters in Moscow are all marching in uniform?

See about Novorossia. See what he has done to Belarus, what he did to Georgia, what Latvia and in particular Moldova are saying, his curtailing of a free press, and in our discussion I have pointed out his overall stance with America, NATO and Japan is hostile. Oh, and in case you didn’t notice he has annexed Crimea. Surely you can see now just reading the LGF front page or any news, Russia’s belligerence is ever stronger.

My point is that there is every reason just to guard his neighbours’ borders and seek to stymie Putin and his clique. Maybe you think it is me being belligerent. But I am trying to think how to prevent catastrophic escalation, planes and bombs, and the answer is not to bury our heads in the sand but to assert ourselves and weaken him.

294 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Mon, Mar 17, 2014 1:00:20pm

re: #293 Dom

He has returned to internal repression, outward hostility and dominating his neighbours. That’s what I called tearing up perestroika.

Okay, that makes a little bit of sense. But perestroika had very little to do with foreign relations (that was much more Glasnost), and the internal repression Putin is using does not bear a ton of resemblance to the Soviet system. A

Really you don’t get?

Did you notice the 10,000 pro-Putin protesters in Moscow are all marching in uniform?

Yes. Weirdly, uniforms are not something unique to the USSR.

See about Novorossia. See what he has done to Belarus, what he did to Georgia, what Latvia and in particular Moldova are saying, his curtailing of a free press, and in our discussion I have pointed out his overall stance with America, NATO and Japan is hostile. Oh, and in case you didn’t notice he has annexed Crimea. Surely you can see now just reading the LGF front page or any news, Russia’s belligerence is ever stronger.

None of that has shit to do with “So he and China are really actually allies”

My point is that there is every reason just to guard his neighbours’ borders and seek to stymie Putin and his clique. Maybe you think it is me being belligerent. But I am trying to think how to prevent catastrophic escalation, planes and bombs, and the answer is not to bury our heads in the sand but to assert ourselves and weaken him.

Dude, what I was taking issue with was the idea that China trusts any treaty with Russia to last a second beyond the time period Russia sees it in their absolute best interests.

So what are you recommending we actually do, by the way, concretely?

295 Dom  Mon, Mar 17, 2014 1:29:11pm

I just repeated for you what I think we should do, but I am pleased you asked because that is the bit to think about. I didn’t say everything I might suggest, and nor have I voiced all of my suspicions about Putin, and ultimately there will be a lot of intel activity going on among people better informed than you or I, so that is sufficient to say. A lot of what I think we should do is also bearing out. Obama is not looking so weak this time. I think that is because it all looks very clear, not because I can see anything anyone else can’t. Economic sanctions will weaken his hand but not his resolve. Troops across the border, which I am pleased to find is under discussion, might weaken his resolve.

Your suggestion that Putin’s disregard for post-Soviet agreements undermines his agreement with China is some kind of immensely wishy-washy claptrap. China is very clear where Putin stands, and that is why they signed. China was the only abstention the other day. I asked for an example of a treaty signed and disregarded by Putin, which would be pertinent to your objection.

See about Novorossia. See what he has done to Belarus, what he did to Georgia, what Latvia and in particular Moldova are saying, his curtailing of a free press, and in our discussion I have pointed out his overall stance with America, NATO and Japan is hostile. Oh, and in case you didn’t notice he has annexed Crimea. Surely you can see now just reading the LGF front page or any news, Russia’s belligerence is ever stronger.

None of that has shit to do with “So he and China are really actually allies”

Correct. I already pointed out that they have a pact. I know you have a logic for discounting it but that is why Russia and China are actually allies.

Because it strikes me as a cheek to pretend I was not responding to your questions about perestroika I am quite irritated that you said that.

Yes. Weirdly, uniforms are not something unique to the USSR.

Where do you live? Flag-waving counter-protesters supporting an annexation and marching in uniform can only mean a militaristic ideology to most people. You might find it in dictatorships and bands of thugs.

296 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Mon, Mar 17, 2014 4:05:25pm

re: #295 Dom

You didn’t really say concretely what you wanted us to do. I don’t know if you think you did, but you didn’t.

Your suggestion that Putin’s disregard for post-Soviet agreements undermines his agreement with China is some kind of immensely wishy-washy claptrap.

Wishy-washy is an absurd word choice there. You have failed in any way, shape, or form to explain why Russia’s violation of treaties would not make China rightfully assume that that meant they were unreliable in upholding treaties.

China just condemned Russia’s invasion, by the way.

Where do you live? Flag-waving counter-protesters supporting an annexation and marching in uniform can only mean a militaristic ideology to most people. You might find it in dictatorships and bands of thugs.

Well, it is a militaristic ideology. I just pointed out that militaristic ideology isn’t unique to the USSR. I don’t know why you think it is.

297 Dom  Mon, Mar 17, 2014 5:12:02pm

Right. You have repeatedly ducked my question in favour of rigmarole around a really poor objection. You apparently don’t appreciate the significance of military alliances! They signed Sino-Russia in 2001 and they are sticking to it. The fact that you think China might question Putin’s credibility is nice and all but, hey, you bring the evidence on this one. I gave you the dead straightest answer you could possibly wish for when you asked why I thought China and Russia have an alliance, and you can rationalise about that until the cows come home.

My point about the uniforms is Putin is heading up a thug brigade. That’s bloody obvious.

There are a lot of aspects and a lot of players, so no I am not acting the lay Machiavelli and offering up The Answer, or describing detailed dark ops, but one thing I did call for is unmistakably concrete: border defenses.

You are probably a great person and ftr I don’t think you are a Greenwald or anything but I don’t need to repeat myself, I’m happy with what I said several times, and you are trolling me.

298 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Mon, Mar 17, 2014 5:19:23pm

re: #297 Dom

What question have I ducked?

You apparently don’t appreciate the significance of military alliances! They signed Sino-Russia in 2001 and they are sticking to it.

But will they always stick to it?

The fact that you think China might question Putin’s credibility is nice and all but, hey, you bring the evidence on this one.

My evidence is that Russia just violated a bunch of treaties, which makes them less trustable in upholding treaties. More support is that China just condemned Russia’s invasion of Crimea.

My point about the uniforms is Putin is heading up a thug brigade. That’s bloody obvious.

Well, yeah. Who the hell is arguing against the idea that Putin is thuggish?

You are probably a great person and ftr I don’t think you are a Greenwald or anything but I don’t need to repeat myself, I’m happy with what I said several times, and you are trolling me.

I never troll. Is english your first language?

299 Dom  Mon, Mar 17, 2014 5:24:26pm

Dude, we’re done today. No disrespect.

300 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Mon, Mar 17, 2014 5:27:02pm

re: #299 Dom

Dude, we’re done today. No disrespect.

Just confusion, mostly. I think you thought, for some weird reason, that me saying that Putin wasn’t rolling stuff back to the USSR meant I didn’t think he was thuggish. I can’t otherwise understand the whole “But they’re in uniforms!” bit.

I also don’t get why you think that a nation violating treaties doesn’t affect its trustworthiness in regard treaties.

OIr why you think Russia and China are true allies, especially given China’s condemnation of Russia’s invasion.

Finally, you haven’t actually concretely said what you want to actually happen. You talked vaguely about ‘troops across the border’ and ‘economic sanctions’.

301 Dom  Mon, Mar 17, 2014 5:30:48pm

You asked if English was my first language (is it because you can’t even be arsed to Google ‘ftr’?). You might find it hard to read what I actually wrote, but that would be better than imagining it. And we are done, and perhaps on a better day we’ll get a coffee or something. Later.

302 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Mon, Mar 17, 2014 5:31:53pm

re: #301 Dom

You asked if English was my first language. You might find it hard to read what I actually wrote, but that would be better than imagining it. .

See, this is what I mean. That second sentence doesn’t actually make sense in English.

303 Dom  Mon, Mar 17, 2014 5:46:14pm

You think you never troll?

304 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Mon, Mar 17, 2014 5:49:43pm

re: #303 Dom

You think you never troll?

I know I never troll. I’m always being honest in my dealings with you. I honestly can’t follow much of your argument and think that you’ve expressed yourself very oddly. This isn’t trolling. This is really my reaction to what you’ve said, it is not in any way feigned.

305 Dom  Mon, Mar 17, 2014 5:52:55pm

I think you’ll find, some fast typing aside, that my command of English isn’t lacking. Perhaps if you read it again in the morning. Anyway I’ll respect that answer at face value.

306 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Mon, Mar 17, 2014 5:57:08pm

re: #305 Dom

I think you’ll find, some fast typing aside, that my command of English isn’t lacking. Perhaps if you read it again in the morning. Anyway I’ll respect that answer at face value.

No, that second sentence really doesn’t make sense.

You might find it hard to read what I actually wrote, but that would be better than imagining it.

By ‘imagining it’, do you mean ‘making it up’? Imagining doesn’t work in that sentence, because ‘imagining’ doesn’t inherently mean getting it wrong. You can imagine things that are true.

I asked if English is your first language so that, if it wasn’t, I can make allowances for you getting idiomatic things wrong and hopefully communicate better with you. Obviously, you have a generally good command of English, but here and there, you descend into oddness.

307 Dom  Mon, Mar 17, 2014 6:00:41pm

Wow. Honest question: are you stoned?

308 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Mon, Mar 17, 2014 6:06:48pm

re: #307 Dom

Wow. Honest question: are you stoned?

No. Why on earth would you think that I was?

309 Dom  Mon, Mar 17, 2014 6:15:16pm

Because you couldn’t understand my use of the word “imagine” and thought you were right to define it for me.

Words have broad meanings. “Imagine you are on a beach.” “I imagine we can last another day.” “She imagines things.”

To use “imagine” for “making it up” cannot possibly have confused you. If you read the conversation again you could look at whether you have been trolling me, just throwing out endless challenges that I did answer, and at least some of which you could have easily checked, and adding nothing.

I asked for an example of a treaty Putin has signed and then gone back on, because a 15-year standing change in state policy is not going to raise the issues around Putin’s credibility that you are saying it will.

re: #279 Dom

re: #280 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Why do you think China is an ally to Russia?

re: #281 Dom

Because in 2001 Putin signed a 20 year pact with China.

The only other thing that might want clearing up is your perception that perestroika and glasnost were a part of Sovietism. They signalled its end. The dates are not relevant.

310 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Mon, Mar 17, 2014 6:20:22pm

re: #309 Dom

To use “imagine” for “making it up” cannot possibly have confused you.

It didn’t confuse me at all.

If you read the conversation again you could look at whether you have been trolling me, just throwing out endless challenges that I did answer, and at least some of which you could have easily checked, and adding nothing.

Okay, since you’re now accusing me of ‘adding nothing’ when I pointed out several treaties you overlooked, pointed out that China had condemned the invasion of the Ukraine, pointed out that treaties aren’t between individuals and other countries, but countries and other countries, that Perestroika ended long before you said it did, etc. etc., I’m going to stop talking to you now.

The only other thing that might want clearing up is your perception that perestroika and glasnost were a part of Sovietism. They signalled its end. The dates are not relevant.

I didn’t claim they were part of Sovietism, but that they occurred under the Soviet system, which is true.

311 Dom  Mon, Mar 17, 2014 6:21:07pm

And irrelevant, and tantamount to trolling.

I was sooooo patient. You didn’t show that China has condemned Russia, because they haven’t. They called for calm, which I wrote several posts back, and singularly abstained from the UN condemnation.

312 Dom  Mon, Mar 17, 2014 6:58:20pm

Well, I can have a laugh. After all that, you think you can teach me about intellectual diligence. Get real.


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