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16 comments

1 The War TARDIS  Sep 17, 2011 10:02:10pm

And this is different from what Netanyahu wants, how?

2 Bob Levin  Sep 17, 2011 10:18:36pm

re: #1 ProLifeLiberal

Are you talking about houses or human lives? Or literally, lines drawn in the sand?

3 The War TARDIS  Sep 17, 2011 10:23:49pm

re: #2 Bob Levin

Borders. Let’s face it, Natanyahu never wanted the talks to succeed. Let’s remember how he killed Oslo. Quote from Wiki:

In a 2001 video, Netanyahu, reportedly unaware he was being recorded, said: “They asked me before the election if I’d honor [the Oslo Accords],” “I said I would, but … I’m going to interpret the accords in such a way that would allow me to put an end to this galloping forward to the ‘67 borders. How did we do it? Nobody said what defined military zones were. Defined military zones are security zones; as far as I’m concerned, the entire Jordan Valley is a defined military zone. Go argue.”[101]

Not to mention what his party (Likud) comes from.

The Palestinians have to feel that they are getting something out of negotiations.

They are constantly being asked to concede and concede. What exactly are they gaining?

4 Bob Levin  Sep 17, 2011 10:57:35pm

re: #3 ProLifeLiberal

Ah, well many of us are talking about human lives. There’s a genuine feeling that those living in Area C are in danger.

How do you understand Oslo? And why does your quote show that Netenyahu ‘killed Oslo’? How is that quote (no link) a misinterpretation of Oslo? And two, he didn’t become Prime Minister until 2009. He wasn’t even in politics in 2001.

Not to mention what his party (Likud) comes from.

Mention it, I don’t understand what you mean here.

The Palestinians have to feel that they are getting something out of negotiations.

What do you think the Palestinians want? We might have different views about this. I think they want to destroy Israel. And I think that’s pretty much all that they want.

They are constantly being asked to concede and concede. What exactly are they gaining?

Again, I don’t understand what you’re referring to.

5 The War TARDIS  Sep 18, 2011 8:43:38am

re: #4 Bob Levin

I would take your Liked Perspective more seriously if it weren’t for two things:

a) What about the fact that the Palestinians have a major water crisis, because Israeli wells undercut them, and many settlers very crude actions towards Arabs.

b) The fact that Likud is a descendant of Irgun, a terrorist organization responsible for both the King David Hotel Bombing and the Deir Yassin Massacre. Likud recently attempted a white wash of the former event.

In any case under your ideas, the Palestinians would have a poor state riddled with holes, with checkpoints preventing any sort of movement, and constantly short of water because of settlers wells.

You care only about the lives of one side. To you, the Palestinians are expendable.

The Palestinians are constantly being asked to give up land, and places important to them. The temple mount is a good example. Why would I trust Likud to protect such the Dome of the Rock and Al-Asqa Mosque. It didn’t work for the Muslims in India concerning Babri Mosque in India when the very similar BJP was in power 20 years ago.

6 Samson  Sep 18, 2011 12:36:04pm

re: #5 ProLifeLiberal

“…The temple mount is a good example. Why would I trust Likud to protect such the Dome of the Rock and Al-Asqa Mosque.”

You’ve got this entirely backwards.

The Temple Mount, including the Dome of the Rock and the Al-Aqsa Mosque is administered by the Waqf, not by the Israeli government. This has been the case since 1967. Muslims have access whereas Jews have very limited rights of visitation, and no authority over the property - the most holy site in the world for Jews.

Conversely, Jewish holy sites have been abused, desecrated and/or destroyed throughout the Arab world. Jewish holy places in East Jerusalem under Jordanian rule from 1948-67 - when Jews were expelled and prohibited from living there - were routinely defiled. Furthermore, Jews were not permitted any visitation rights to the Wailing Wall or any holy sites in the occupied (by Jordan) territory throughout this period.

I will note that Egypt (pre-Arab spring) recently restored an ancient Jewish synagogue as part of Egyptian national heritage. While a very nice gesture, it’s just a little too late - the Egyptian Jewish community is practically non-existent, just as it is in the rest of the Arab middle east. Where did they all go? Somewhere safer for them, I hope.

So don’t tell us about how you don’t trust the Likud government to protect Muslim holy sites. I can’t comment about the situation in India, but Israel’s record on protecting Muslim holy sites is demonstrably stellar. Quite the opposite for Jewish sites has been true throughout most of the Arab middle east.

7 Bob Levin  Sep 18, 2011 2:33:13pm

re: #5 ProLifeLiberal

In any case under your ideas, the Palestinians would have a poor state riddled with holes, with checkpoints preventing any sort of movement, and constantly short of water because of settlers wells.

You care only about the lives of one side. To you, the Palestinians are expendable.

You obviously don’t read much of what I post. I think Fatah and Hamas view their populations as expendable.

a) What about the fact that the Palestinians have a major water crisis, because Israeli wells undercut them, and many settlers very crude actions towards Arabs.

Every country in the Middle East has a major water crisis. However, Israel has been, and is continually working out new technologies which help to alleviate these problems, as well as inventing new ways to grow food. If the PLO and Hamas spent their energies on food and water production, there would be peace right now.

b) The fact that Likud is a descendant of Irgun, a terrorist organization responsible for both the King David Hotel Bombing and the Deir Yassin Massacre. Likud recently attempted a white wash of the former event.

Yep, we all know the history. However, any time a small nationalist group begins to fight the country, or power, that is keeping them from forming a nation, the initial fighting begins in that way. At the very beginning of the fight (and by the way, who were the Jews fighting? Who actually had sovereignty over the land?) all such small groups look alike. Yet as history progresses, we can eventually see which groups are interested in forming a nation and which groups are simply trying to murder others. I don’t think there is any question that the Jewish groups were interested in building a nation.

I still don’t know what the Palestinians are being asked to give up. As it stands right now, they aren’t asked to give up anything. Guess who is being asked to give up Hebron? It’s not the Palestinians. Guess who may never see Joseph’s tomb again? It’s not the Palestinians.

8 Bob Levin  Sep 18, 2011 2:34:23pm

re: #5 ProLifeLiberal

You still didn’t answer the question about Oslo. What do you think Oslo was?

9 The War TARDIS  Sep 18, 2011 3:47:02pm

re: #8 Bob Levin

Oslo was a territorial arrangement in making the West Bank into zones, which would, over time, lead to a more permanent arrangement. Netanyahu undercut that.

I won’t listen to Likud. No amount of excuses will make me accept their past, especially when they show no regret or apology for it, even when has made Israel’s life harder.

In any case, the Palestinians have legitimate grievances regarding past issues. Again, with the water issue. I don’t see the Israelis rationing water, while the Palestinians are forced to. In Hebron, in H2 zone, 30,000 Palestinians are under curfew for 500 settlers who act is massively unkind ways, such as attacking children coming back from school.

The Palestinians are being asked to give up Jerusalem, as not having any sort of control over their skies.

In fact, some people have said that at this point, with the settlements being where they are, a Palestinian State is no longer viable.

re: #6 Samson

Except for the Arab Towns in 1948, right? You know, like Deir Yassin, Ramla, and Lydda? No side here is of pure action. Haganah acted as probably the best actor in the 1948 War, but Irgun (which would later become Likud) was one of the worst.

In addition, given enough time, people will be able to visit the religious sites on the other side of the line. However, that means peace as soon as possible.

10 Bob Levin  Sep 18, 2011 4:32:15pm

re: #9 ProLifeLiberal

Oslo was a territorial arrangement in making the West Bank into zones, which would, over time, lead to a more permanent arrangement. Netanyahu undercut that.

We’ll disagree on this. Oslo was signed in 1993. There have been many events, such as the second Intifada, which makes it near impossible for Israel to trust the PA negotiators. This bid for statehood via the UN is saying, in fact, that the PA does not recognize Oslo. The idea is to sit down and negotiate, not figure out reasons to stay away from negotiations. The PA could sit down with Israel tonight, if they wanted to, and begin negotiations.

I won’t listen to Likud. No amount of excuses will make me accept their past, especially when they show no regret or apology for it, even when has made Israel’s life harder.

This should make it easy. If you think I’m a Likudnik, then we shouldn’t even be having a conversation. However, I think that I’m a normal Jew who can recognize antisemitism and genocidal attempts towards Jews when I see them. I’m very much against another Holocaust. In your eyes, if that makes me a Likudnik, so be it.

Again, with the water issue. I don’t see the Israelis rationing water, while the Palestinians are forced to.

I was in Israel this summer, and all I saw were methods to conserve water. That’s because the technology is in place for conservation. If Fatah has never implemented such technology—well, according to Oslo, Fatah is the government of the West Bank, they made a choice. And their choice has been trying to get their population to kill Jews. I’ll repeat myself—if the PLO put as much effort and priority into water and agriculture technology, then there would be peace today.

In Hebron, in H2 zone, 30,000 Palestinians are under curfew for 500 settlers who act is massively unkind ways, such as attacking children coming back from school.

Do you think that’s just a little simplistic? Here’s a quote, from a very long essay on Hebron in Wikipedia:

Beit HaShalom, established in 2007 under disputed circumstances, was under court orders permitting its forced evacuation.[156][157][158][159][160] All the Jews were expelled on December 3, 2008.[161]

I’m not saying that this is the be all and end all point regarding the city, I’m saying the issue is complex and needs to be worked out. There is no doubt that the Jewish residents of the city are in danger, because they are Jewish.

If you start to cite violence as objections, to, what…whether or not Jews should be allowed to live in a city, then in that area of the world, there’s more than enough violence to be cited. So much so, that one might think the two peoples are at war.

The Palestinians are being asked to give up Jerusalem, as not having any sort of control over their skies.

Could you clarify this a little?

In fact, some people have said that at this point, with the settlements being where they are, a Palestinian State is no longer viable.

Interesting, because there are Jews who feel that having a country with a 9 mile waist is indefensible, and history shows that Israel needs some extensive defending—from people trying to wipe out the entire population.

11 Samson  Sep 18, 2011 4:58:57pm

re: #9 ProLifeLiberal

“re: #6 Samson

“…Except for the Arab Towns in 1948, right? You know, like Deir Yassin, Ramla, and Lydda? No side here is of pure action. Haganah acted as probably the best actor in the 1948 War, but Irgun (which would later become Likud) was one of the worst.

In addition, given enough time, people will be able to visit the religious sites on the other side of the line. However, that means peace as soon as possible.”

No.

I have disputed your comments about Jewish and Muslim holy sites. You are confusing several different issues here:

• “…Except for the Arab Towns in 1948, right? You know, like Deir Yassin, Ramla, and Lydda?” You are referring to alleged massacres and/or expulsions that occurred during a war. This is, as they say, beyond the scope of this particular thread, but I will dispute the notion that the army of the newly-formed state of Israel, fighting for its life, was guilty of worse behavior than the multiple armies that came to drive the Jews into the sea.

• “…Irgun (which would later become Likud) was one of the worst” - the Irgun was absorbed into the IDF, and by the end of Israel’s War of Independence was no longer functioning as an independent entity:

en.wikipedia.org

The Irgun committed several well known acts of terrorism (or resistance, as murder is now called by the Palestinians) prior to the formation of the state of Israel. They are nothing to be proud of, but on the other hand, no one has accused them, or any other Jewish or Israeli group of purposely and systematically destroying or defiling Muslim holy sites. In any case, while Likud has part of its history from the Irgun, the current party leadership is now two generations separated from it.

• “…In addition, given enough time, people will be able to visit the religious sites on the other side of the line.”

This is a dream, unlikely to occur any time soon. In the entire time that Jordan occupied the west bank, Jewish holy sites were systematically destroyed and defiled. No Jew was allowed to visit these sites (or to live in Jordan, for that matter). Had there been no war in 1967, this would certainly still be the case. Even now, the ability of Jews to visit the Cave of Machpelah, Joseph’s tomb and other holy sites within Palestinian areas is limited, visitors are subjected to violent attacks, and attempts are made to damage the sites themselves. In contrast, Muslim sites in Israel (as well as Christian churches, Bahai shrines and other religious sites) are protected. To claim otherwise is simply wrong, and if you are not convinced, I am willing to spend the rest of my Sunday finding enough references to convince you.

Perhaps at some time in the distant future, there will be real peace in which Israel can exist as a Jewish state in harmony and mutual respect with its neighbors, in which religious and historical sites will be appreciated for their significance and beauty rather than their political meaning, and where the political and civil rights of all men and women are respected. Until then, I would trust the State of Israel, whatever its currently elected governing party, far more than the Palestinians or any other group or nation in the entire middle east when it comes to protecting and providing access to holy sites.

12 Samson  Sep 18, 2011 9:09:24pm

re: #9 ProLifeLiberal

elderofziyon.blogspot.com

Photos of Jews “storming” the Temple Mount Sunday

Palestine Today brings us photos of Jews roaming around the Temple Mount on Sunday.

Palestine Times referred to them as usurpers” who were “desecrating” and “storming” the holy site.

13 The War TARDIS  Sep 18, 2011 10:02:18pm

re: #11 Samson

I simply will not trust Likud. That’s the plain and simple of it. They have done nothing to distance themselves from their past, and have in fact attempted to whitewash at least one of the attacks.

And I actually do remember seeing a story about settlers wrecking a graveyard, along with semi-regular stories about vandalizing of Mosques on the West Bank.

In addition, look at what happened from the Arab point of view in regards to the expulsion of Jews from the Middle East. In their eyes, in 1948, hundreds of thousands of Arabs were fled out of fear of massacre (Deir Yassin had just happpened) or being forced out by Irgun. So, in the most base reaction, the Arabs retaliated against innocent Jews in the area. Was it rational. No.

Was it normal though? Unfortunately yes. There are many instances in history of an ethnic group being expelled from an area due to circumstances. The Expulsion of Jews and Muslims in Spain in the late 1400’s, what happened to Germans in what is today Poland and Kaliningrad after World War II (No, the Germans living there did not deserve expulsion. They were not individually responsible for what happened).

What I see is a situation that has been needlessly exacerbated by the actions of Arab World in a very misguided want of revenge for something only TWO (Irgun and Lehi) relatively small groups was responsible for. These two groups actions, especially at Deir Yassin, added fuel to the fire.

Yes, I realize that visitation to sites in the West Bank important to the Jewish people will be limited. However, we both know that any settlement will mean the same being true for Dome of the Rock and Al-Aqsa Mosque. My goal is to have definite borders put down so we can get to getting both sides (yes, there are issues on the Israeli side, though more minor in scale) to cool down and to get a better relationship for generations after mine. Things can heal. It may take a while, but it can happen. Europe used to be just as nasty as what we see now in the Middle East. But now the ethnic rivalries are only aggressive in the Balkans.

In addition, I distinctly remember a hit piece you did against the Community Center in Manhattan several months ago. Since then, I pegged you as Anti-Muslim.

re: #10 Bob Levin

In the case of Hebron, I would have to imagine that the actions of the settlers would increase resentment.

Continued issues involving water also feed it overall throughout the West Bank (among other things). It might sound good to say the Palestinians should do things regarding water, but Israel has spend a major amount of money on these projects. Money the PA simply doesn’t have. In addition, perhaps the settlers and other people using the water could cut back on consumption just a little bit.

In regards to the air control mentioned, Netanyahu said he wanted Israel to have complete control over airspace above the West Bank.

And again, the Palestinians are afraid of being surrounded by Israel and being fragmented by the settlements. To them, a fragmented West Bank will be unsustainable because they think Israel will make it hard to go from town to town. In addition, I’ve known Palestinians here, and they tend to talk ALOT about Deir Yassin. They are paranoid of a repeat occurring.

Also, the current abysmal relations between Jewish and Arab communities are a recent an unusual anomaly. Most of this uptick started in the 1870’s though there were issues before.

Things may not have been perfect before that period, but they certainly were better. I wish to work towards restoring than building something better out of it.

14 Flavia  Sep 18, 2011 11:17:48pm

Just because Wikipedia calls Deir Yassin a “massacre” doesn’t mean it’s true: hirhome.com The people who talk about it the most aren’t paranoid - they’re just drumming up propaganda, & it obviously works.

The King David Hotel was British Military HQ at the time - which so many people conveniently forget - along w/the fact that they were called & warned to evacuate. Their answer? “We don;t take orders from Jews.” Israel still calls & drops leaflets whenever she is forced to bomb - when are the real terrorists going to do the same?

The PA would have plenty of money for water projects if Yassir Arafat hadn’t skimmed over 900 million off the top (& you can bet the other “leaders” are doing the same), or if they weren’t busy buying bombs & paying off bin Laden to attack the US (Ok, it was 10 years ago, but that’s where all the aid money goes!).

I could go on, but I have to get up for work tomorrow. But I do have to ask: “Why should Israel always have to care for those trying to destroy her more than her own citizens?”

15 Bob Levin  Sep 19, 2011 12:07:41am

re: #13 ProLifeLiberal

I don’t even know where to begin.

In the case of Hebron, I would have to imagine that the actions of the settlers would increase resentment.

Let’s make it really clear. There’s a war on, but everyone is pretending there is a peace process. It’s a weird war, in that Israel is trying not to get killed, and the PA is doing everything it can to destroy Israel, either physically or psychologically. They are not succeeding physically, but I believe they are succeeding psychologically. So I view this as a war.

Continued issues involving water also feed it overall throughout the West Bank (among other things). It might sound good to say the Palestinians should do things regarding water, but Israel has spend a major amount of money on these projects. Money the PA simply doesn’t have. In addition, perhaps the settlers and other people using the water could cut back on consumption just a little bit.

How can you not be aware of the level of corruption in the PA? They don’t have money because the leadership stole it. Let’s not talk about Fayaad today—because he wasn’t around for decades, as the leadership was literally stealing bread from the mouths of the people.

Israel was not always a rich country. Israel started with the same desert that everyone else in the region has. If the surrounding areas still have trouble with water and food, it’s not because it’s impossible to grow and conserve. It’s because they are trying to destroy the only country with the knowledge and expertise that could help them.

In regards to the air control mentioned, Netanyahu said he wanted Israel to have complete control over airspace above the West Bank.

That’s because there is a war on, in which Israel is surrounded by those at war with it, peace treaties or not. So look at the map and tell me who is surrounding who. Israel survives the physical assaults because of an advantage in the air, regardless of the twenty thousand missiles that have been shot into Israel in the last seven years. In fact, as long as Israel existed, it has had to endure almost daily artillery shelling.

Do you have any idea what the Jews might be afraid could be repeating? All the puzzle pieces are there, even the Nuremberg laws that the PA is so excited about implementing. You stated that these concerns are minor in comparison to the Palestinians. You’re going to have to explain that.

In my lifetime, there has never been any statements from the PA that even remotely resemble a desire for peace. And if you can find some words, you’ll find that the follow up was an attack on Jews. Heck, Fatah still talks about Palestine from the river to the sea on a daily basis. Every day someone here posts another quote to that effect.

Let’s cut to the chase. Is there any piece of information that you could learn that would cause you to change your position? If there is, we’ll help to find it. If there isn’t, then we’d better switch to talking about baseball.

16 Samson  Sep 19, 2011 5:45:57am

re: #13 ProLifeLiberal

“…In addition, I distinctly remember a hit piece you did against the Community Center in Manhattan several months ago. Since then, I pegged you as Anti-Muslim.”

For the record, I raised some concerns in the past about the Community Center project that were, I believe, unfairly exaggerated. It was no “hit piece”, whatever that means. I no longer have those concerns, which were specifically about that project, but even if I did, I believe it would be an unwarranted slur to call me “Anti-Muslim”, which I am not. With that in mind, I will end my participation in this thread.


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