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14 comments

1
Varek Raith  Sep 12, 2015 • 9:53:56pm

Most interesting.
Having played 8, I can definitely see the parallels now.
Nice work.

2
The War TARDIS  Sep 12, 2015 • 10:12:13pm

I am trying to do more writing on stuff, but I will eventually do overall thoughts on Final Fantasy VIII. It is a truly fascinating game, and a relatively strange one.

There is one more section I realize that I need to add. Not directly related to the others, but it does tighten the link to New Who.

3
EiMitch  Sep 13, 2015 • 12:10:58am

Warning: passionately dissenting from OP.

I didn’t care much for FFVIII. And it wasn’t just the localization issues, nor the imbalanced gameplay. It was that they made the love story between Squall and Rinoa the focus of the game, despite the two characters being ridiculously shallow cookie-cutters. Awkward for an unmercifully long playtime. And I can’t imagine a better translation improving it enough to salvage it.

For those who never played it and don’t know what I’m talking about, it’s like this: Virtually all of Rinoa’s personality can be summed up as “stock designated love interest.” Just about the only other thing we know about her is that she led a tiny rebel force early in the game. And I mean tiny. Just a handful of schoolmates, or something. And those bit characters are abandoned by the writers early, never to be seen, heard from, nor mentioned again. They only existed so the writers could say “see? She’s an independent young woman. We can write realistic characters.”

And as for Squall, he’s just a 24/7 frowning, emo cold-fish. Yeah, he had “reasons” for that, but he was still unlikable. Asking wtf Rinoa saw in him is as productive as asking wtf Padme saw in Anakin. And yet this was the focus of the “story.” They even based the game’s logo on it.

Come to think of it, I’d rather see “Attack of the Clones” again than play FFVIII again. Because AotC is mercifully shorter.

As for the rest of the plot, it was convoluted and otherwise hard to follow, until being hit with a big exposition dump near the end. That facet I could imagine being improved by a better localization, by providing a much clearer picture of the pieces before the puzzle is assembled.

But the Whovian parallels still take a back-seat to Twilight: JRPG Edition. FFVIII’s world and lore had potential, and it was wasted on the most awkwardly unbelievable “love story” ever.

I’ll close by providing a contrast to further highlight how low my opinion of FFVIII is. FFIX had a better written main story, with more likable protagonists and a more believable love story. And that game was set in the most uncreative, return-to-the-well FF world ever. (except maybe the MMOs. Maybe, because I stayed away from them)

4
The War TARDIS  Sep 13, 2015 • 9:31:47am

re: #3 EiMitch

I will disagree just as passionately.

First off, I wouldn’t hold Final Fantasy IX up as an example for anything. In fact, it went back to the old formula that was present from Final Fantasies I through 6. In addition, the Chibi-fied graphics make it hilariously hard to take seriously.

As for your talk of an exposition dump, did you watch the end of the game?

There were just a tiny handful of lines, with those lines connecting the Time Loop that hadn’t yet become apparent. And a number of these lines had been mentioned earlier in the game.

I will add though that the game was mistranslated for English Speakers to a degree much more severe than you think, but not in the same way as Final Fantasy VII. Whereas Final Fantasy VII was simply a catastrophe in Translation that is near legendary (Excerpts from TvTropes, which I rarely use, but is useful here.

Final Fantasy VII had its own translation issues. The French translation also has some pearls like “I am one of the rightful heirs to this planet”, which was better translated by Google than it was in the game itself. It all starts in the title screen credits with “Executive Produce.”

The Guard Scorpion is supposed to be a Warmup Boss, with a simple gimmick to show off the active-time battle system; attacking at the wrong time note will result in a nasty counterattack. However, Cloud’s advice on how to fight it was worded awkwardly and the gap between the messages appearing made it misleading, leading to players doing the exact opposite of what was they had to do. Cloud yells “Barret, be careful! Attack while its tail’s up! It’ll counterattack with its laser!” “Attack while its tail’s up!” appeared in its own textbox, making it seem like a definite command, rather than a warning against it.

Final Fantasy VII also gives us the classic boss name mistranslation “Safer Sephiroth.” It’s meant to be “Sefer”, which is Hebrew and goes with the Kabbalah reference in Sephiroth’s name, and possibly “Seraph,” which is the name of the six-winged creatures that stood in Heaven’s throne room.

Bizarro Sephiroth is often thought to be this, but it’s actually something of a clumsy Woolseyism - the katakana for the name is リバース セフィロス (Ribāsu Sefirosu), which can be read as either “Rebirth Sephiroth” or “Reverse Sephiroth”. Since both could potentially fit, the translators decided to Take a Third Option instead.
Speaking of Final Fantasy VII, the English translation had a minor error in one of Cloud’s Limit Break moves. It was supposed to be “Climb Hazard” (“Kuraimu Hazādo” in Japanese, referencing the attack’s effectiveness against aerial enemies), but was mistranslated into English as “Climhazzard”.

This guy are sick.

Another Final Fantasy VII example is translating Odin’s “Gunguniru” (Gungnir, Odin’s spear from mythology) as “Gunge Lance”, leaving English players wondering what the hell slime has to do with the attack. Likewise, his Zantetsuken attack which literally translates to “Iron-Cutting Sword” and is generally left untranslated in every FF game after 7, was translated as Steel-Bladed Sword.note Then again, maybe in FF7’s world, steel is some kind of wondrous divine material that’s even better than Mithril.

Even worse is the German version, which was obviously translated from the English one. Why? Because every other English line is left untranslated. And no, it’s not a case of Gratuitous English, when random lines like “He’s scary!” or “I’m so nervous” suddenly appear in an all-German text for no reason. When Yuffie asks Cloud to give her all the Materia after they have defeated Sephiroth, the translators apparently decided to take a break in the middle of their work and ended up forgetting to finish the translation of one textbox which resulted in the (in German communities often quoted and by now legendary) sentence “It’s all in there, read it sorgfältig durch” (read it carefully). This made the quote unintentionally comical and people still refer to it as a prime example of bad translations. Also, some attack and weapon names were mistranslated horribly. For example, “Drain” became “Rohr,” which means “sewer-pipe” instead of “to drain of something”, and Materia and spell names often got varying translations in different places of the game. It was often hard to make out what you actually just equipped.

Speaking of Germany in Final Fantasy VII, let’s not forget that “Ahriman” was translated as “Allemagne”, the French word for Germany.

On top of some very strange… choices, what was especially baffling about the French translation was that there were sometimes missing words or, at the other end of the spectrum, words or entire sentences repeated for no reason.

In Spain, Ahriman was translated to Alemania, Spanish for Germany. Also, the translators managed to call Aeris both a woman and a man in the very same dialog box, multiple times (and did that to Tifa and Jesse, and probably any female character, too). And Allévoy, a typo of Allá voy (Here I come) is an actual meme. Sífilo is a meme too; it’s one of many typos of Sephiroth/Sefirot that happens to look (and sound) very similar to syphilis. Also, when you talk with a child in Costa del Sol, he says, more or less It hurts when you kick [the ball] with your bare feet; in Spanish, it got translated to It hurts when you kick me with your bare feet. Yuffie says let’s go instead of let go to Don Corneo’s henchmen, and the time when she says GROSS-NESS is just untranslated. Oh, and Absorb MP materia, in some games, had the description text: Summons Knights of the Round Table. Spanish translation for FFVII was horribly catastrophic. It could have its own wiki.

Strangely enough, in the aforementioned horrible spanish translation, Cloud correctly indicates Barret to NOT attack the Guard Scorpion when its tail is up. Guess even a broken clock is right twice a day.

In one treasure chest in Inside of Gaea’s Cliff, you find an item called “Last Elixir”, but when examining your inventory, no such item can be found. It turns out “Last Elixir” is just the Japanese name for Megalixir, and the translation team simply forgot to change the name in that one instance.

VIII’s was a far more subtle mistranslation. While technically correct, the way things were translated made things seem a great deal more stiff. In Rinoa and Squall’s case, it is actually to such a great extent that it blurs the characterization. In Rinoa’s case, her dialogue in Japanese was supposed to make her look naive in comparison to the other main characters, but in English, it made her come across as bratty. Squall get it bad to. In Japanese, he is quite a bit softer, and the “Whatever” line is not actually what he says. A more correct translation would be “Sorry.” A good summary here:

This was the first video game that was translated to non-English European languages internally by Square Enix, motivated by the localization debacle that was Final Fantasy VII. The results were spectacular, specially in languages like Spanish, where they included all sorts of different accents for the characters that made the game even more memorable.

While the English translation on the surface looks more polished than Final Fantasy VII’s, fans comparing the original Japanese script with the translation revealed a number of serious issues, like the changing of Rinoa’s personality or the complete butchering of Ultimecia’s speeches for no apparent reason.in addition, in some cases, entire lines were deleted and replaced by “Whatever.”

And, there are specific examples.

The Japanese version of Rinoa’s confession in Galbadia Garden plays out a differently from the English translation, and includes a line referencing that indicates that she no longer likes Seifer:
Rinoa [Japanese]: “If I did I couldn’t talk about it like this”
Rinoa [English]: “If I didn’t, I wouldn’t be talking about it.”

Final Fantasy games, despite their high quality, had chronic translation issues until Final Fantasy X came out. And Final Fantasy VIII was one of the better ones in the Series between 1 and 9, with only 9 being just marginally better. Translations to other languages were much better, especially to French and Spanish, and the complaints from the English Speakers don’t appear much, if at all from fans in regions speaking those languages.

In addition, I think there is a toxic train of thought in the US that dealing with problems in any other way than shoving them down and putting on a happy face is a bad thing. Look at how over-medicated the US is in terms of mental health compared to other nations, and this is coming from some who needs those medications to even function.

I think the fact that I have Autism, which results in slightly different thinking patterns, resulted me negating the effects of the mistranlations so to speak.

One more point. If played in a certain (and I would argue, Canon) way, the relationship does not come from no-where. For this to happen, Rinoa must be taken with you to Garden during the Missile Crisis Arc, and then one must make sure to choose the rendition of “Eyes on Me” during the mini-story involving the Concert. That smooths out the relationship to a great degree, and the story makes more sense that way.

Also, it should be noted that much of what Squall is saying is actually an internal monologue. And a great deal of the game is spent by other characters trying to fix Squall, so to speak. And, by in large, they are successful. By the time Squall meets his father for the first time, he is very well adjusted, while Rinoa’s previous naivete is completely gone.

There are a number of other facets in the story that should be mentioned. But that will be for another page, a more “In Defense of Final Fantasy VIII” page. Final Fantasy VIII, along with 7 and 10, are the pinnacles in Final Fantasy storytelling. Even with mistranslations. They all involve complex and unique settings that vary differently from the old formula of European Medieval Fantasy. VII is Diesel-punk with Magic, VIII is split between Modern World, and Hyper-Futuristic, with magic not only having been contained, being forced into submission by technology. Final Fantasy X is probably the rarest of them all, being set in a world that can be described as East-Asian High Fantasy, with technological elements.

5
The War TARDIS  Sep 13, 2015 • 9:39:52am

Also there is a very slight disconnect between how romance is handled over here, and in Japan

Squall’s attachment to Rinoa is a subject of debate among fans. To start with, depending on which party members the player selects during certain plot events and/or sidequests, the Character Development that builds up their relationship may or may not be witnessed during a given playthrough. Even worse, said development may not be enough for the player. For example, the intricacies of Japanese courtship either flew over American players’ heads or seem silly from American perspective. Squall and Rinoa don’t hold hands, kiss or say “I love you”, which makes sense in a country where public displays of affection are a huge no-no, but leaves Americans scratching their heads wondering if these people are really supposed to be in love.

6
EiMitch  Sep 13, 2015 • 12:40:58pm

re: #4 The War TARDIS

First off, I wouldn’t hold Final Fantasy IX up as an example for anything. In fact, it went back to the old formula that was present from Final Fantasies I through 6. In addition, the Chibi-fied graphics make it hilariously hard to take seriously.

Didn’t I mention IX was a return to the well? That was kinda my freaking point. You should re-read that part of my comment. You missed something I said. Spoiler alert: that last will be a recurring theme in this post.

In Rinoa’s case, her dialogue in Japanese was supposed to make her look naive in comparison to the other main characters, but in English, it made her come across as bratty.

Naive? That’s supposed to make her less of a stock love interest?

Squall get it bad to. In Japanese, he is quite a bit softer, and the “Whatever” line is not actually what he says. A more correct translation would be “Sorry.”

Okay, replacing all the “whatever”s with “sorry”s would’ve helped a little bit. I’ll give you that. But even then, he’s still unlikable overall. What was he supposed to be, an emo-introvert born leader? The story still felt like everyone was supposed to like him, and no other reason was given except that the story required it.

In addition, I think there is a toxic train of thought in the US that dealing with problems in any other way than shoving them down and putting on a happy face is a bad thing. Look at how over-medicated the US is in terms of mental health compared to other nations, and this is coming from some who needs those medications to even function.

Wtf did I say that would make this a relevant part of your response? I know that Squall had issues, but that didn’t make him any less unlikable. Come to think about it, “shoving down problems and putting on a happy face” is what Squall did, except it was “never-ending frown” instead of “happy face.” So I guess this was kinda relevant, just not in whatever way you might’ve intended.

One more point. If played in a certain (and I would argue, Canon) way, the relationship does not come from no-where. For this to happen, Rinoa must be taken with you to Garden during the Missile Crisis Arc, and then one must make sure to choose the rendition of “Eyes on Me” during the mini-story involving the Concert. That smooths out the relationship to a great degree, and the story makes more sense that way.

I did both of those things, and it didn’t help my complaints about them as characters at all. They didn’t develop any. It was just “here’s a romantic backdrop, there’s a romantic backdrop, they’re in love dammit so just buy it already.” You might as well give me a sparkling vampire at this point in the game.

Also, it should be noted that much of what Squall is saying is actually an internal monologue. And a great deal of the game is spent by other characters trying to fix Squall, so to speak.

And what reason did they have to bother in the first place? I can get behind the “foreknowledge” theory for Edea, Cid, and Laguna to push Squall towards his “destiny” or whatever. But what reason did the rest of the party have to care about the seemingly self-centered emo jerk? And back to my point, what did Rinoa see in him?

…while Rinoa’s previous naivete is completely gone.

And replaced with… What exactly? More pretentious “stock love interest” lines. The game at that point jumped from “they’re in love, just believe it,” to them talking waxing tragic about a scenario that never comes to pass.

“If Ultimecia were to possess me again, it would be okay if you were the one to kill me.”

“No way. I could never bring myself to kill you. I’ll be your knight.”

After failing for so long to make their love believable, this unused Chekov’s gun just felt like more emo bs.

For example, the intricacies of Japanese courtship either flew over American players’ heads or seem silly from American perspective. Squall and Rinoa don’t hold hands, kiss or say “I love you”, which makes sense in a country where public displays of affection are a huge no-no, but leaves Americans scratching their heads wondering if these people are really supposed to be in love.

What? This had nothing to do with my complaints at all. Come to think of it, that makes it the perfect note for you to end on. Because your entire defense seems like you read that part where I first said I didn’t like the “love story” and let your eyes glaze over at that part. You put a huge emphasis on the translation issues, as if that was the biggest problem. And then you fired a scatter-shot defense of the love story, hoping it hit my complaints which you apparently skimmed over.

It was a passionate defense alright. So blindly passionate, that you missed my point. It’s not like I criticized Dr Who, but apparently I might as well have for all you cared to read.

7
The War TARDIS  Sep 13, 2015 • 2:43:58pm

re: #6 EiMitch

I do tend to do a blind defense, I will give you that. However, a poor translation can kill a game. Even bad voice-acting can do the same. Look at how Final Fantasy X is treated, largely because of poor voice-acting (Remember Tidus’s whiny-ness? That was not present in the Japanese Version). And, the point about how various cultures treat romantic affection is a valid one, because a difference in culture can hugely change how one interprets things.

I will admit that when someone attacks something I like, I do take it as a personal attack.

And, in regards to the emo-jerk portion, again, we come back to the mistranslation. The same complaints are not heard from the Japanese Fans, or the fans who speak different languages, namely French and Spanish. That would suggest that things were shifted around in such a way so as to significantly alter the meaning. And we know this was the case, look at how poorly the line with Rinoa in regards to Seifer was translated. It flipped the whole meaning of the sentence. From what I can tell the “emo jerk” only exists in one translation. Unfortunately it is ours. And their is no easy way to fix this. Square did re-release VIII on PSN and Steam, but they did the same for 7. And they did not fix the glitches and mis-translations in 7, and they were far more obvious. Fans could do a re-translation from the Japanese script, but that is an incredibly time-consuming process. (Though, I do see some people have done chunks of the game).

As for the Naivete being gone, I do remember that scene. She allowed her self to be possessed again, to allow Ultimecia to go father back in time, off course, things went just a little of-center during the execution, but that happens. And in any case, I would like to remind you, Rinoa, Squall, Selphie, and Zell were 17, with Irvine and Quistis being 18. The characters were acting like teenagers. And, unlike like of stories with teenage protagonists that come from Japan or elsewhere, they make mistakes. Big ones, to the point where it, at least partially, deconstructs the stories that follow those line.

8
The War TARDIS  Sep 13, 2015 • 2:46:25pm

Here is a good example of the mistranslation problems.

Actually, my opinion on VIII’s translation job is getting worse. It seems to be as bad as 7’s but has better spelling and grammar, so the mistranslation is not as readily visible. Only through the characterization can something be seen as wrong.

9
EPR-radar  Sep 14, 2015 • 4:01:48pm

This business of translating of ‘sorry’ as ‘whatever’ in FFVIII is news to me, and makes a big difference in characterization.

Another thing I read recently about FFVIII is that the final boss theme “The Extreme” apparently includes themes from some of the music in earlier FFs, which is exceedingly appropriate given the time compression element in the story.

Alas, I haven’t yet been able to hear this myself in the music.

10
The War TARDIS  Sep 14, 2015 • 6:04:54pm

re: #9 EPR-radar

There’s even worse moments, actually.

The Griever at the end of the Game is described in English as being the most powerful GF. This was actually an arguement for the Rinoa=Ultimecia Theory that was debunked some time back.

Everywhere else was a little different.

Griever’s true nature is made more explicit in the Japanese version of the game where Ultimecia claims to summon the one entity Squall views as the most powerful whose power would only increase the stronger Squall envisions it. This means that this manifestation of Griever is powerful purely because of his importance as a symbol in Squall’s mind, and could even be seen as Squall needing to overcome a part of himself to win the battle.

Humorously, this may sound familiar if anyone watches Ghostbusters.

Ghostbusters Stay Puft Man

11
EiMitch  Sep 14, 2015 • 6:57:24pm

re: #7 The War TARDIS

Sorry for the delay. RL can get in the way like that.

First of all, that Rinoa did get possessed again doesn’t count as firing that Chekov’s gun I mentioned last time. Why not? Because, as you said, the party did that deliberately, and it was resolved immediately without any of that “what if you have to kill me?” drama that was alluded to.

Second, I only brought that scene up because you made a big deal about how she started as naive and then stopped being naive. It was my way of saying “so what.” It didn’t answer the following two questions, which btw you still haven’t answered:

Who is Rinoa other than a stock love interest?

And what did she see in Squall?

instead, you reiterate how much the translation sucked, and that the answer is probably in the source material, somewhere. And then you doubled-down by basically saying “they’re teens. Of course they’re going to have shallow characterization.” Even if were to buy this last, (which ftr I don’t) it’s still a terrible defense of FFVIII’s love story. It’s terrible because that love story was the focus of FFVIII. And because if this game took place a few years later, if the characters were more mature and had some depth, the non-romance parts of the plot would’ve been the exact freaking same. Most of the party were mercenaries, trained since childhood. There was no reason they had to be teens when that s*** went down. This was a creative decision, and it wasn’t a good one.

The love stories in FFs VII and IX were more believable and easier to understand. How much so is debatable. But translation issues didn’t leave me scratching my head with these sub-plots. Speaking of which, that was the best part about them: they were sub-plots, not the main focus.

If you’re going to make a lo-ong game like FFVIII and center the story around a romance, said romance had better be good. Instead, I only saw pretentious cheese that might as well have been written by Stephenie Meyer when she was 12 y/o.

Look, I get why you liked FFVIII. Almost everything you mentioned in your OP was very interesting. But I didn’t have the same reaction to those things as you did. All I saw in them were cool ideas and great potential wasted. The game should’ve focused on any one of those facets instead, not some shallow teen love puff story that was stretched wa-ay too long. FFVIII could’ve been much, much better that way.

TL:DR - Good/bad translation aside, Squall and Rinoa made for a bland love story either way. And it was made worse by ridiculously far more screen time than it deserved. FFVIII’s devs created an awesome world, only to focus on one of the least interesting things possible. That’s why I dislike it so much.

12
The War TARDIS  Sep 14, 2015 • 8:00:46pm

re: #11 EiMitch

In regards to Rinoa, I would argue that is more than a random stock interest. She was the leader of a small resistance group in an occupied nation. Very naive, yes, but at the same time willing to do more than sit on the sidelines and do the oh-so-popular Slacktivism. Granted, one of her ideas turned out very poorly (The Odine Bracelet to surpress the Sorceress Power), but after that she does start to get more serious. In Disc 2, she gets Irvine to turn around and rescue the others at D-District Prison. Her companions in the resistance movement do appear again, during Disc 3. One of them almost attacks Squall for her being in a coma.

What I see in the game in Rinoa is a naive, resistance fighter who quickly gets caught up in something she probably shouldn’t have been involved, but was swept up anyway. She would proceed to lose the naivete, grow to have a second group of issues (insecurity about her abilities vis-a-vis the other 5), is put through the wringer with Ultimecia, and decides to allow her self to be possessed again, in the hope that doing so would launch all 6 of them along the time stream, to a faraway future (I would guess about 600-900 years. About the amount of time for even well-recorded history to be forgotten).

In regards to what to what was seen in Squall, that is where the translation hurts the game. In the translation, he comes off as an icy jerk. In other languages, he is a relatively awkward person who shuns social contact, because the risk of someone leaving and causing him pain is so great in his mind, he, to use Vastra’s words in The Snowmen perfers isolation to pain’s return. If this sounds familiar, it should. Because we saw that in Doctor Who during The Snowmen. The other people around him saw this as unhealthy, and started trying to pull him out, with Rinoa being the most vocal, partially because of the fact she wasn’t in the rigid Garden environment the others were. As time went on, the other 4, espeically Selphie, decided they were going to Ship this across the ocean, and started setting them up, and things went from there.

And I do like that the characters are so young. The first 2 discs are the most thorough deconstruction of the “teenagers saving the world” thing that you see a lot of in Anime and Manga. Because all 6 foul up in ways that force this them to grow. And, one more point. While your views on the game may have relative popularity here, that is not the case elsewhere. And even that is disappearing, because the un-neccessary backlash to Final Fantasy VII has caused re-appaisals of VIII, which, along with translations from other languages, paints a different picture. Were there problems with the game? Yep. The Dynamic Leveling was a great idea on paper that did not translate well. And there were some story elements that could have been handled better. But overall, Final Fantasy VIII is a game that van hold its own again 7 and 10. And with me finding out how crappy the translation is under the veneer of correct spelling and grammar, it is in dire need of a remake.

To be fair, somethings can be hard to translate. The number of ways that ‘sorry’ can be expressed in Japan can get confusing. Final Fantasy VII’s plot is made more than a little confusing by the Sephiroth Clones. Clones is an inexact translation. The Japanese name, Sephiroth Copies, is a bit better, as what they are were survivors of the Nibelheim Incident infected with Jenova cells. However, the conversion was not complete, and they tended to be more like his puppets.

13
The War TARDIS  Sep 14, 2015 • 8:07:00pm

re: #9 EPR-radar

The Ultimate only includes parts from one game’s music, Final Fantasy I’s.

14
EiMitch  Sep 15, 2015 • 3:45:36pm

re: #12 The War TARDIS

At least you focused on my two main complaints this time. I’m not satisfied with the answers, but I did get answers, so I think I’ll just drop it here.

That, and I still say the romance wasn’t good enough to be the focus of the story. It should’ve been a sub-plot.


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