Another Stealth Creationist Bill in New Mexico

Science • Views: 2,257

Add New Mexico to the lengthening list of states in which Republican politicians are introducing bills intended to sneak the teaching of creationism into science classes, under the deceptive mantle of “academic freedom.”

(Hat tip: wrenchwench.)

UPDATE at 2/20/09 8:41:10 pm:

And again, the creationists at the Discovery Institute provided the model for this legislation: Creationist Legislation, New Mexico Legislature, 2009 60-day Session.

This all goes back to Gov. Bobby Jindal and the Discovery Institute. When Jindal’s creationist bill succeeded in Louisiana, it emboldened Republicans all over the US to start pushing — and the Discovery Institute supplied the Wedge.

Also see
Major Scientific Society Boycotts Louisiana to Protest Creationism Bill Lebo: Using ‘Academic Freedom’ to Keep God in the Science Classroom Another Stealth Creationist Bill in Missouri More Stealth Creationist Bills in Five More States, As the DI Mask Slips in Virginia Another Stealth Creationist Bill in Florida Another Stealth Creationist Bill in Alabama Louisiana BOE Adopts New Policy Favoring Creationism

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327 comments
1 Sharmuta  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:29:31pm

The New Mexico link is coming up "page not found".

2 Syrah  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:29:32pm

Popping up everywhere like a metastasizing cancer.

3 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:29:34pm

42

4 Summer Seale  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:30:18pm

This is really becoming very, very, scary.

It appears that this is what the core of the Republican party wants and will not rest until they have it and the entire party is held hostage to this claim.

5 HelloDare  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:30:23pm

The Democrats are loving this.

6 HelloDare  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:31:21pm

Academic Freedom to be Stupid.

7 walter l. newton  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:31:32pm

The GOP is will help Obama and the Dems stay in power until at least 2016. And these sort of bills are only the beginning.

8 freedombilly  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:31:41pm

This crap is going to kill the Republican party if we don't fight it now.

9 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:32:00pm

re: #1 Sharmuta

The New Mexico link is coming up "page not found".

Fixed.

10 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:32:17pm

Once again we see that the are targeting the poorest states with the worst public education systems.

11 Sharmuta  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:32:30pm

re: #9 Charles

Fixed.

Thanks!

12 walter l. newton  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:33:24pm

re: #8 freedombilly

This crap is going to kill the Republican party if we don't fight it now.

It's already dead.

13 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:34:42pm

Noooooo! It's 10:30 in Dallas and I need the sleep. You guys will have to hold down the fort on this one.

14 Summer Seale  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:35:17pm

re: #12 walter l. newton

It's already dead.

Yea, but this isn't helping.

15 Ojoe  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:36:52pm

Time for a new party.

Modern Whig party.

16 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:37:29pm

NM Creationist Bill Has a Sponsor...


Who wrote the legislation? Would you believe... the Discovery Institute? (Shocked! Shocked, I say...) Check out the Institute's "Academic Freedom" site : (A simple WHOIS inquiry will verify that this is from the Disco Institute...)

This page offers a "sample academic freedom bill." From that model legislation:"Section 5. Students may be evaluated based upon their understanding of course materials, but no student in any public school or institution of higher education shall be penalized in any way because he or she may subscribe to a particular position on any views regarding biological or chemical evolution...."

Compare this to this sentence from the proposed NM bill: " C. Public school teachers may hold students accountable for knowing and understanding material taught in accordance with adopted standards and curricula about biological evolution or chemical evolution, but they may not penalize a student in any way because that student subscribes to a particular position on biological evolution or chemical evolution...."

17 Sharmuta  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:37:38pm

From the bill:

A. The department, school district governing authorities and school administrators shall not prohibit any teacher, when biological evolution or chemical evolution is being taught in accordance with adopted standards and curricula, from informing students about relevant scientific information regarding either the scientific strengths or scientific weaknesses pertaining to biological evolution or chemical evolution. A teacher who chooses to provide such information shall be protected from reassignment, termination, discipline or other discrimination for doing so.

That want to place teachers above the law if they should choose to violate the rights of parents, students and to defy the electorate via the school boards.

B. This section pertains solely to the teaching of scientific information and specifically does not protect the promotion of any religion, religious doctrine or religious belief.

Do these people realize there is no scientific information that invalidates the theory of evolution? There is only religious rhetoric.

18 razorbacker  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:38:16pm

Well, as long as it's not happening in the United States.Oh, comeon! You knew someone would say it.

19 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:39:40pm

#420

20 MandyManners  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:40:08pm

re: #19 Noam Sayin'

#420

That's kinda' late.

21 Sharmuta  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:40:24pm
D. For purposes of this section, "scientific information" means information derived from observation, experimentation and analyses regarding various aspects of the natural world conducted to determine the nature of or principles behind the aspects being studied. "Scientific information" does not include information derived from religious or philosophical writings, beliefs or doctrines; provided, however, that "scientific information" may have religious or philosophical implications and still be scientific in nature."

Then what is the point of this bill?! There is nothing that qualifies as scientific information that invalidates evolution. The "information" that does is not scientific, it's religious!

22 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:41:06pm

Ya think?

Guess I wasn't factoring for alcohol.

23 gman  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:41:08pm

re: #4 Summer

This is really becoming very, very, scary.

It appears that this is what the core of the Republican party wants and will not rest until they have it and the entire party is held hostage to this claim.

Yep, they lost big in the election and they're dealing with it by reaching out to their fringe.

24 Sharmuta  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:41:48pm

re: #4 Summer

This is really becoming very, very, scary.

It appears that this is what the core of the Republican party wants and will not rest until they have it and the entire party is held hostage to this claim.

Then they get mad when the hostages resist!

25 Sharmuta  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:43:04pm

Everyone- be sure to grab an ID/Creationist Bingo Card!

26 Salamantis  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:43:06pm

re: #21 Sharmuta

Then what is the point of this bill?! There is nothing that qualifies as scientific information that invalidates evolution. The "information" that does is not scientific, it's religious!

It's all part of their nefarious plan.

They'll argue that it IS scientific, and then demand to 'teach the controversy'...

I think I'm going to be sick.

27 Shay4l  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:44:26pm

re: #13 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Noooooo! It's 10:30 in Dallas and I need the sleep. You guys will have to hold down the fort on this one.

Hey I'm in Dallas. Let's party on Friday night and check the Friday Night Creationist Thread(tm) banning total for laughs after a night at Deep Ellum

28 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:45:09pm

This all goes back to Gov. Bobby Jindal and the Discovery Institute. When Jindal's creationist bill succeeded, it emboldened Republicans all over the US to start pushing - and the Discovery Institute supplied the Wedge.

29 jcm  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:45:24pm

When will Charles ever stop posting about stealth creationism bills? This gets so tiresome. We've got more important things to do, stopping Jihadists, the Democrats etc... We need to Focus on important issues.

//////////
When that stop trying to pass stealth creationism bills!
DUH!

Just thought I get this out of the way early.

30 jaunte  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:45:41pm

re: #21 Sharmuta

Then what is the point of this bill?! There is nothing that qualifies as scientific information that invalidates evolution. The "information" that does is not scientific, it's religious!

I don't understand the position of people who are supporting these laws for religious reasons, and then denying what they are obviously doing.
Isn't that against the advice they claim to follow, based on these statements?


"Whatever I tell you in the dark, speak in the light; and what you hear in the ear, preach on the housetops."

“Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven."

31 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:46:14pm

re: #30 jaunte

I don't understand the position of people who are supporting these laws for religious reasons, and then denying what they are obviously doing.

They're lying for Jesus.

32 Shay4l  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:46:38pm

re: #29 jcm

When will Charles ever stop posting about stealth creationism bills? This gets so tiresome. We've got more important things to do, stopping Jihadists, the Democrats etc... We need to Focus on important issues.

//////////
When that stop trying to pass stealth creationism bills!
DUH!

Just thought I get this out of the way early.

p*hangs head in shame*

33 jaunte  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:46:48pm

re: #31 Charles

I thought Jesus told them not to do that.

34 Sharmuta  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:46:56pm

re: #30 jaunte

The enormous levels of hypocrisy never cease to amaze me.

35 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:47:58pm

Waah! Charles! Stop stop stop! This is boring! Global warming! You're turning into Andrew Sullivan! Who cares! Jihad! I'll pray for you as you burn in eternal torment! :-)

36 gman  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:48:10pm

re: #30 jaunte

It's all about their hunger for power and they'll do anything to get it, anything!

37 Sharmuta  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:48:59pm

re: #35 Charles

I so love the passive aggressive smiley faces.

38 Rich H  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:49:03pm

There seems to be an organized effort on the part of religious conservatives to apply sustained political pressure to teach creationism. Given that this requires the commitment of significant resources, and given the multiple crises facing our society, isn't there a better purpose for Fundamentalist Christians to apply their efforts?

39 Salamantis  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:49:05pm

re: #34 Sharmuta

The enormous levels of hypocrisy never cease to amaze me.

Nothing these cynical bastards could do would surprise me any more.

40 Shay4l  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:49:51pm

Jure: #31 Charles

Just for the record I completely oppose the government making any law regarding religion, as it is none of their effing business.

41 Summer Seale  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:49:54pm

Next up:

NPR: Doubting Darwin: Debate Over The Mind's Evolution

42 Sharmuta  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:49:57pm

It will look less like an insult if I smile at the end of it......

43 walter l. newton  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:50:09pm

re: #38 Rich H

There seems to be an organized effort on the part of religious conservatives to apply sustained political pressure to teach creationism. Given that this requires the commitment of significant resources, and given the multiple crises facing our society, isn't there a better purpose for Fundamentalist Christians to apply their efforts?

Yes, the lack of the ten commandments in the classroom.
/

44 Racer X  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:50:12pm

I got 3 schillings on #124

45 Last Mohican  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:50:13pm

re: #17 Sharmuta

Speaking purely from a lazy student's perspective, I like this part:

[schools] shall not penalize a student in any way because that student subscribes to a particular position on biological evolution or chemical evolution.

For example, suppose you're taking a biology test, and you write this:

Q: Describe the significance of the differently shaped beaks found on finches in the Galapagos Islands.
A: God felt like it.

Q: Why is the genetic mutation that causes sickle cell disease found primarily in races originating from tropical or subtropical regions?
A: God felt like it.

Q: Why shouldn't a doctor prescribe antibiotics for a patient who doesn't actually have a bacterial infection?
A: God doesn't like it.

If the teacher takes off any points for those answers, you can sue the school! And suing is always easier than studying.

46 jaunte  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:50:24pm

re: #36 gman

It's all about their hunger for power and they'll do anything to get it, anything!

I guess they really aren't believers, or they might think of Faust, and have a second thought.

47 Ojoe  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:50:34pm

re: #35 Charles

LOL

48 gman  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:50:44pm

re: #28 Charles

This all goes back to Gov. Bobby Jindal and the Discovery Institute. When Jindal's creationist bill succeeded, it emboldened Republicans all over the US to start pushing - and the Discovery Institute supplied the Wedge.

The dam's been breached. Watch out!

49 Racer X  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:50:59pm

re: #43 walter l. newton

What happened to your nic?

50 walter l. newton  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:51:25pm

re: #44 Racer X

I got 3 schillings on #124

Where are you?

51 Ojoe  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:52:12pm

re: #43 walter l. newton

Well, they won't let you cheat on tests, still, so that's one commandment functionally still in the classroom (No. 8 or 9 depending on your list).

52 Haverwilde  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:52:41pm

Do we laugh?
Do we cry?
Do we tear our hair out?
Do we yell at the top of our voice:
You fucking RETARDS!

My son and his wife, and sister and her husband, all live in New Mexico at the moment. I guess I will email them and tell them to get to work.

Obama leading the nation into bondage, and the GOP leading the nation into ignorance.

Anyone ready for the Intelligent Liberty Party. Most animals are inappropriate for the party mascot but maybe we could use the Tyrannosaurus Wrecks!

53 walter l. newton  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:53:04pm

re: #49 Racer X

What happened to your nic?

Nothing. I signed on in lower case. Charles' software doesn't care about the case, and he uses whatever case you type your username in as for the screen display.

54 Racer X  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:53:14pm

re: #50 walter l. newton

3rd rock out from Sol, West coast of N. America, City of Angels.

55 Ojoe  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:53:27pm

re: #52 Haverwilde

Modern Whig Party

56 jcm  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:53:43pm

re: #50 walter l. newton

Where are you?

The New American Colonies. We've decided the whole independence thing was a mistake.

Long Live the Queen!

////

57 walter l. newton  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:54:20pm

re: #54 Racer X

3rd rock out from Sol, West coast of N. America, City of Angels.

So, when did LA start using pound sterling? "3 schillings?"

58 hopperandadropper  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:55:27pm

Unbelievable. The people who derive their political and economic philosophies from Adam Smith, Thomas Jefferson, Ayn Rand, Winston Churchill, et al. are going to be dragged down to oblivion by the Jerry Falwells of this world. The worst mistake Reagan ever made was to get in bed with these fools. The conservative point of view has been tainted by association ever since. I wouldn't vote for Bobby Jindal for dog catcher.

59 Sharmuta  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:55:29pm

re: #45 Last Mohican

Yep- can't punish teachers for violating the Constitutional rights of students and parents and undermining the elected officials in charge of setting the curriculum standards, and you can't punish the kids with a failing grade either. They may as well push for no science education in public schools at all if this is how it's going to be.

I do find it ironic however that these bills set a standard for what constitutes "scientific information" when what they're trying to push doesn't even meet those same standards.

60 Ojoe  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:55:37pm

re: #57 walter l. newton

Schilling is a spice company, (& at one time pepper was worth more than its weight in gold).

61 Racer X  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:56:02pm

re: #57 walter l. newton

The Dollar aint worth crap anymore.

62 Ojoe  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:56:23pm

re: #58 hopperandadropper

Modern Whig.

63 gman  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:58:03pm
"Scientific information" does not include information derived from religious or philosophical writings, beliefs or doctrines; provided, however, that "scientific information" may have religious or philosophical implications and still be scientific in nature."

Behold, the Wedge Strategy

64 Ojoe  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:58:40pm

'Night all.

65 Steve Rogers  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:58:46pm

Within the first month in office, Obama and the Democrats are (among lots of other things) talking about nationalizing the banks faster than Stalin, murdering the First Amendment with the return of the "fairness" doctrine, and taxing the people who create the jobs. And the Republican's spend their time and money on crap like this!

Way to fight for limited government, personal responsibility, fiscal discipline and the Constitution guys!

These "creationists" are an albatross around the neck of every Republican out there. And as soon as any Republican grows a spine and works to kick these loons out of the GOP, that party will stand a chance at standing up to the Democrats. Until then, Obama should send them Thank-You Cards for all they are doing for the Dems.

66 Salamantis  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:58:56pm

re: #46 jaunte

I guess they really aren't believers, or they might think of Faust, and have a second thought.

No, they simply declare that Marlowe and Goethe were covert atheist propagandists.

67 Colonel Panik  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:59:01pm

re: #38 Rich H

There seems to be an organized effort on the part of religious conservatives to apply sustained political pressure to teach creationism. Given that this requires the commitment of significant resources, and given the multiple crises facing our society, isn't there a better purpose for Fundamentalist Christians to apply their efforts?

Yes. Opposing creeping Gramscian Marxism in the schools. Stopping revisionist American History curricula that blames America for all the wrongs in the world.
Example, WWII histories that attempt at "moral equivalence" between the Allies and the Axis, in overemphasizing things like FDR's internment of the Nisei, and downplaying the Rape of Nanking, discussing the dropping of the atomic bomb devoid of context in what the projected invasion of Japan would have cost in terms of both American and Japanese lives, scaremongering about McCarthyism while ignoring Soviet espionage, subversion and tyranny, etc. etc.

68 Sharmuta  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:59:24pm

re: #26 Salamantis

It's all part of their nefarious plan.

They'll argue that it IS scientific, and then demand to 'teach the controversy'...

I think I'm going to be sick.

The thing that worries me is not enough parents know enough about evolution to know this whole thing is crap. They'll see "irreducible complexity" and just take it at face value without knowing that IR has been utterly debunked. It's why I feel it's important these bills are getting highlighted so people with some knowledge of science in these various states can step up to fill the void.

69 Summer Seale  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:59:26pm

re: #41 Summer

Next up:

NPR: Doubting Darwin: Debate Over The Mind's Evolution

I suggest everyone read this or listen to it. It talks about Bob Novella (of The Skeptic's Guide to the Universe fame - awesome podcast) dueling with a Discovery Institute moron.

That's the coming tactic I think: doubting the evolution of the brain to "disprove" evolution.

70 Rich H  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:59:40pm

re: #43 walter l. newton

Yes, the lack of the ten commandments in the classroom.
/

I was thinking more like protecting us from terrorism, or fixing the economy. My bad.

71 walter l. newton  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:59:40pm

re: #62 Ojoe

Modern Whig.

The name is strange and the logo looks like the demon that was destroying the crane in the final scene of "Five Million Years to Earth" (Quartermass and the Pit).

72 jcm  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:00:23pm

re: #63 gman

Behold, the Wedge Strategy

Science doesn't include religion............

WELL DUH! That's why it's called SCIENCE and not RELIGION!

*face palm*

73 walter l. newton  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:00:44pm

re: #71 walter l. newton

The name is strange and the logo looks like the demon that was destroying the crane in the final scene of "Five Million Years to Earth" (Quartermass and the Pit).

Image: pit_qu6.jpg

74 Colonel Panik  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:01:41pm

re: #71 walter l. newton

The name is strange and the logo looks like the demon that was destroying the crane in the final scene of "Five Million Years to Earth" (Quartermass and the Pit).

Ah, yes, the three legged telepathic Martian grasshoppers. Great flick.

75 Last Mohican  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:02:27pm

re: #59 Sharmuta

I do find it ironic however that these bills set a standard for what constitutes "scientific information" when what they're trying to push doesn't even meet those same standards.

And they're awfully cryptic about what they're trying to do. You can't penalize a student for "subscribing to a particular position on" evolution? How about this: Newton said that force equals mass times acceleration, but I "subscribe to the position" that objects in motion remain in motion until God sends tiny angels down to slow them down, at whatever rate He pleases. I'll take my "A" now, please.

76 walter l. newton  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:02:28pm

re: #74 Colonel Panik

Ah, yes, the three legged telepathic Martian grasshoppers. Great flick.

Yes.

77 Ojoe  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:02:32pm

re: #65 Steve Rogers

We need a big 3rd, center party. The number 2 has no center, so with only two major parties, the extremists of left and right contaminate them both, and sensible people are alienated from the whole process, leaving the door open for the extremists, which is what we have now.

Modern Whig Party

Ah, I gotta get some rack time.

Good night again.

78 Brit in Japan  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:03:57pm

Set! Hut-hut-hut!

I don't want to take away from Ludwig's hammer, but I'll bring out the play book again. Let's call the plays as we see them. I'll take those three schillings and offer five half-crowns: #120

1. Pump-action fake.
"This is boring / unimportant. / What is this? / Let’s talk about Islam!"
Counterplay: Nice try buster. Go get your own blog.

2. The fake handoff.
"Stop bashing Christians / conservatives!"
Counterplay: Millions of conservative Christians around the world, including the Pope, accept the facts of evolution. Which cult are you in?

3. The screen.
"You cannot prove life sprang from nothing. / They haven’t recreated life in a lab!"
Counterplay: Wrong argument (again and again). You are talking about biogenesis. The facts of evolution do not explain how life came into existence in the beginning, so scientists do not even try to explain it (though some do have atheist hypothesis). This is exactly why Christians accept the facts of evolution as well as God being the creator.

4. The run and shoot.
"Irreducible complexity! / Cambrian Explosion! / Transitional forms! / Other canard!"
Counterplay: Easily blitzed (they are all directly quoted from Deception Institute websites), and Charles / Sal / Sharmuta have the links where they have been destroyed. The purpose here is not to convince any lizards (far too thorough!), but just to repeat the lies often enough perhaps to sow some confusion in occasional, less-well-informed readers. It can be a lengthy process as they ignore each refutation and just leap into the next lie, with getting the last word in as the objective, so we can just wait for Sal. Or use Ludwig's hammer.

5. The retreat.
"Ok, adaptation occurs but not speciation!"
Counterplay: Stop laughing first, then ask where they learnt about species. This stance involves an imaginary invisible line where evolution suddenly halts. The finches are enough refutation, but now we can reproduce speciation, and watch it in real time, with e-coli. Ask the creationist: What would you call a fish? A lizard with gills, or a fish?

6. The Hail Mary Bomb.
"Jesus said blah blah blah..."
Counterplay: Dogmatic literalism is the easiest to counter: "Jesus said, 'with God, all things are possible.'"

7. The punt.
"You are evil / agree with Hitler if you believe in evolution."
Counterplay: GAZE

8. The self-destruct.
"Well I can’t see any good evidence for evolution, so you must all be crazy and believe in it like a religion!" (No further argument offered)
Counterplay: Go on, you believe the Flintstones is real, right? (You can have fun at this stage)

9. The white flag.
"I'm not a creationist."
Counterplay: Well, you must be happy now that we have pointed out how you say and believe exactly the same lies, so you can accept the facts of evolution now.

10. The utter surrender.
"Well, I have to go take the giraffe for a walk now (etc)."
Counterplay: You win. Reset for the next evolution thread.

Two new plays observed!

11. The honest run down the middle.
"Yes, it's all a load of rubbish, but let's teach it to the kids anyway and let them decide."
Counterplay: There is so much wrong with this it is hard to know where to begin. How can someone advocate knowingly teaching falsehoods to kids? Ask the creationist: How about we also teach an alternative history in which we lost WWII? Let the kids decide!

12. Can we play baseball instead?
"It's no use fighting against creationists, it only helps their cause!"
Counterplay: I make it a personal extension of Godwin's law not to compare people to islamist fascists, but this is so eerily similar to the rhetoric moonbats use to condemn Israeli attacks on Hamas it is hard to ignore.

BiJ

79 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:04:37pm

Theocrats, Marxists and Non-Affiliated Whacko's, OH MY.

80 Hard Right  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:06:07pm

Like, OMG, another creationist thread. Charles, you are like, so obssessed.
/////

81 Sharmuta  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:06:20pm

re: #75 Last Mohican

And they're awfully cryptic about what they're trying to do. You can't penalize a student for "subscribing to a particular position on" evolution? How about this: Newton said that force equals mass times acceleration, but I "subscribe to the position" that objects in motion remain in motion until God sends tiny angels down to slow them down, at whatever rate He pleases. I'll take my "A" now, please.

And if this is good enough for grades in science class- why not other classes?

What gave rise to the American Revolution? God wanted to stick it to George III.

82 pingjockey  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:07:43pm

re: #79 ggt

Asshats to the left, idjits to the right, here we are stuck in the middle.

83 swamprat  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:07:45pm

re: #35 Charles

Waah! Charles! Stop stop stop! This is boring! Global warming! You're turning into Andrew Sullivan! Who cares! Jihad! I'll pray for you as you burn in eternal torment! :-)

Forgot the hitler references and the "I-am-a-ciantest-who-does-not-believe-in-Darwinism" claims.

84 Hard Right  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:07:57pm

re: #81 Sharmuta

And if this is good enough for grades in science class- why not other classes?

What gave rise to the American Revolution? God wanted to stick it to George III.

Ha. Squeal George. (smack) Squeal my name! (smack!)
///

85 Shay4l  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:08:16pm

Aw crap I guess we are stuck in a bear market for years at this point. Anyone who has experienced in investments may be Leary admitting it at this pint, bu5t we're at a huge crossroads.

Before the stimulus Bill, the market was hovering around the lows, begging for a reason to climb back up and give the country hope.

Unfortunately, we got the "stimulus bill" instead. At a critical moment in the country's;s history, the Democrats in congress didn't give one tiny turd for the future of the country. All they cared about was sucking the last dry husk of the country dry for their favorite pet spending wish list they'd been rejected for the past 8 years.

So the market has pronounced judgment on the "stimulus bill" by dropping to multi-decade lows, as the intelligent people digest what the elected people have decreed.
The Dimocrats will try to pretend that this is all inherited from Bush. The fact is, the market gave them a chance to do the right thing, and jump-start the economy. Unfortunately, the Dimocrats looked upon the golden goose of American ability, and slayed it.

86 Boondock St. Bender  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:08:24pm

Well,after new orleans,i guess they figure"DOORS OPEN BOYS!"

87 Salamantis  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:08:33pm

re: #69 Summer

I suggest everyone read this or listen to it. It talks about Bob Novella (of The Skeptic's Guide to the Universe fame - awesome podcast) dueling with a Discovery Institute moron.

That's the coming tactic I think: doubting the evolution of the brain to "disprove" evolution.

All the while studiously ignoring the fact that our fossilized hominid progenitors have consistently demonstrated increases of cortical volume (measured by packing their fossil skulls with material that is then poured into marked flasks for measure) as time goes on. And one thing (perhaps the only thing) that Karl Marx's compadre Frederick Engels got right is that when you increase quantity enough, novel qualities emerge. Or else, prove him wrong by demonstrating wave action with a drop of water, or show how a balloonful of air can exhibit tornado characteristics, or show how a handful of rotting grain can spontaneously combust.

88 jcm  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:08:44pm

re: #75 Last Mohican

And they're awfully cryptic about what they're trying to do. You can't penalize a student for "subscribing to a particular position on" evolution? How about this: Newton said that force equals mass times acceleration, but I "subscribe to the position" that objects in motion remain in motion until God sends tiny angels down to slow them down, at whatever rate He pleases. I'll take my "A" now, please.

Pfft, everyone knows everything is carried around on the backs of turtles!

Get with the program already

;-P

89 Hard Right  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:09:44pm

re: #88 jcm

Pfft, everyone knows everything is carried around on the backs of turtles!

Get with the program already

;-P

Not turtles. It's toitles!
///

90 pink freud  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:10:13pm

Happy Birthday and best wishes, Noam!

91 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:11:21pm

Thanks, pink!

92 walter l. newton  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:12:10pm

Professor Bernard Quatermass: Five million years ago it may have been very different. Suppose at that time there were living beings on it with techniques that let them visit the Earth at a time when the most highly evolved creatures here, our own ancestors, were only a type of Pliocene ape.

93 pingjockey  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:13:16pm

re: #88 jcm
There's an aardvark in there somewhere.

94 mich-again  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:13:26pm

re: #87 Salamantis

Forget all that biology stuff. The reason Homo Sapiens are still around and Neanderthals aren't is because our ancestors befriended dogs and the Neanderthals didn't. We figured out how to whistle and they never did.

95 Haverwilde  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:13:29pm

re: #55 Ojoe

Modern Whig Party


Well my friend, I see you have put the same link down for several other lizards.
Thanks, I visited the site, filed a not with Chair of my states organization. Then I stopped into a GOP discussion group, fired both barrels, regarding the creationist crap.
Now I am going to bed.
I am still depressed, but I will be energized in the morning.

Night all.

96 pink freud  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:13:46pm

re: #91 Noam Sayin'

You're welcome! :-)

97 Racer X  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:13:52pm

This thread needs a kick in the ass:

Racer X - Godzilla - Live at Snowball Of Doom

98 pingjockey  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:14:06pm

re: #92 walter l. newton
Mwahahaha! Martian grasshoppers. Great flic!

99 Sharmuta  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:14:08pm

And why should just science teachers have the right to disregard the elected school boards when they establish standards? If I was the teacher of another subject, I would be outraged by this. Not because of some desire on my part to disregard the standards set by the duly elected representatives, or the undermining of Constitutional rights, but because it's a basic question of fairness.

100 MandyManners  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:14:51pm

re: #91 Noam Sayin'

Happy Birthday!

101 swamprat  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:14:54pm

re: #78 Brit in Japan


false credentials
I don't think this but....
quoting talking points verbatim without the slightest concept...
conspiracy of atheistic learned ones to hide ID truths

102 jcm  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:15:12pm

re: #93 pingjockey

There's an aardvark in there somewhere.

Heretics are cast off the south side of a northbound turtle stack into an infinite pile of turtle doo!

103 Last Mohican  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:15:19pm

re: #81 Sharmuta

And if this is good enough for grades in science class- why not other classes?

What gave rise to the American Revolution? God wanted to stick it to George III.

Q: Who wrote "The Canterbury Tales"?
A: All books are written by God, using the hands of mankind, His creation.

Q: If 2x+3=9, then what is x?
A: Whatever God wants it to be. Nothing occurs except as God wills it.

104 mich-again  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:15:33pm

re: #95 Haverwilde

I kind of like the idea of a Jeffersonian Party. His 200 year old quotes still ring true today like if he had just said them.

105 Shay4l  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:15:55pm

NOAM!

Hey Noam, there's a cold one waiting for you

106 Racer X  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:16:09pm

re: #91 Noam Sayin'

Happy Birthday Noam!

*slides Noam an ice cold beer*

107 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:16:38pm

re: #82 pingjockey

Asshats to the left, idjits to the right, here we are stuck in the middle.

again

108 Brit in Japan  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:17:01pm

re: #101 swamprat

false credentials
I don't think this but....
quoting talking points verbatim without the slightest concept...
conspiracy of atheistic learned ones to hide ID truths

Fleaflicker play? :)

(I think I got the "I'm not a creationist" and run-and-shoot plays though)

BiJ

109 jaunte  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:17:08pm

re: #99 Sharmuta

I don't think it will be limited to science teachers. The effects will spill over. Standards will drop in all subjects, if the teacher want to make an argument that there is a 'controversy.' Especially if that controversy has any constituency the school board doesn't want to deal with.

110 Sharmuta  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:17:30pm

re: #103 Last Mohican

Q: Who wrote "The Canterbury Tales"?
A: All books are written by God, using the hands of mankind, His creation.

Q: If 2x+3=9, then what is x?
A: Whatever God wants it to be. Nothing occurs except as God wills it.

Where were these people when I was in algebra?! Solve for X?

X = God. Next question. Give me my A++!

111 jaunte  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:17:33pm

re: #91 Noam Sayin'

Happy Birthday, Noam!

112 DistantThunder  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:18:07pm

What I don't understand is why the creationists don't focus their attention on a marketing area they can realistically exploit - the Public domain. If they create marketing materials for Creationism that is more compelling than evolution - then why bother with sneaking it into science class.

They are obsessed and blinded by their own self-deception.

113 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:18:08pm

I've got 50 cents on comment #257.

114 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:18:25pm

re: #89 Hard Right

Not turtles. It's toitles!
///

speaking of turtles

115 pingjockey  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:18:56pm

re: #110 Sharmuta
Ha! Sounds like Calvins' answers to homework he doesn't want to do!

116 Sharmuta  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:19:27pm

I bet it's #666.

117 DistantThunder  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:19:44pm

re: #112 DistantThunder

What I don't understand is why the creationists don't focus their attention on a marketing area they can realistically exploit - the Public domain. If they create marketing materials for Creationism that is are more compelling than evolution - then why bother with sneaking it into science class?

They are obsessed and blinded by their own self-deception.

118 Haverwilde  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:19:49pm

I wonder if I could go teach in one of those biology classrooms. Then maybe I could teach all about creationism. How, by an act of God, all creationists have had their alimentary canals reverse direction.
/
good night again.

119 Noam Sayin'  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:19:53pm

Thanks, all.

120 DistantThunder  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:20:09pm

re: #116 Sharmuta

Upding.

121 mich-again  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:20:26pm

re: #103 Last Mohican

Whatever God wants it to be. Nothing occurs except as God wills it.


That sounds pretty much like the "Allah willing" line we always hear from the Muslim fundies. But most all Christians do not believe in predestination. Most subscribe to the notion that G* gave us free will. Otherwise, whats the point of heaven and hell. Other than it makes for a good name for a Black Sabbath song.

122 Racer X  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:20:53pm

ELO Bassist Kelly Groucutt Dies at 63

RIP

ELO - In the hall of the mountain king, Great balls of fire

123 Brit in Japan  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:21:12pm

re: #112 DistantThunder

What I don't understand is why the creationists don't focus their attention on a marketing area they can realistically exploit - the Public domain. If they create marketing materials for Creationism that is more compelling than evolution - then why bother with sneaking it into science class.

They are obsessed and blinded by their own self-deception.

Agreed. They do have those funny museums, though.

With all that money they spend, I would have thought it a better pursuit to just build and run their own schools privately, then they can teach whatever they want.

Another little mystery that tells me they are not being honest about their aims.

BiJ

124 calcajun  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:21:19pm

Charles,

My brain is fried--soaked in ecumenical Bowmore (a nice single-malt from Islay)--but I assume it's the language:

however, that "scientific information" may have religious or philosophical implications and still be scientific in nature."

with which you take exception. I'll go back an look at the prior posts and use my resources to see if this has been challenged anywhere.

Now, any post from me for the remainder of the evening will be decidedly non-legal.

“A votre sante!” from my Gallic side.

125 DistantThunder  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:21:34pm

Doesn't the wiccan version of creation involve lots of sexual rituals? Now that would be an interesting addition to class.

126 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:21:36pm

re: #103 Last Mohican

Q: Who wrote "The Canterbury Tales"?
A: All books are written by God, using the hands of mankind, His creation.

Q: If 2x+3=9, then what is x?
A: Whatever God wants it to be. Nothing occurs except as God wills it.

Don't give my students any more ideas.

BTW, odd moment today. One of the classes had a retreat--we're a Catholic HS--and I asked them at the end of the day how it went. They said it was OK, but kind of depressing, so I asked a teacher who was part of it what they did. Their religion class this year has a social justice focus, so apparently they had in a speaker who talked about gang violence in our community--OK--and a speaker who talked about human trafficking--OK--and 'some Palestinians, who spoke about what's happening there now'.

Luckily, I was in the front of the car, and she was in the back, and I just let it fly by me. Now I'm irked. Those first two directly affect our community, and AFAIK, there's no upside in supporting either gang violence or human trafficking. And then, natch, Palestinians.

I was pissed. I guess I'll get over it this weekend.

127 jaunte  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:21:36pm

re: #112 DistantThunder

What I don't understand is why the creationists don't focus their attention on a marketing area they can realistically exploit - the Public domain. If they create marketing materials for Creationism that is more compelling than evolution - then why bother with sneaking it into science class.

They are obsessed and blinded by their own self-deception.

Some of them are working on it. Look at these books targeted at young children:

Charles Darwin and His Magic Barrel

About 150 years ago, the British researcher Charles Darwin came up with a theory that has inflicted terrible harm ever since.
In books and magazines, you may have seen pictures of strange-looking half-human ape-like creatures that supposedly lived in very ancient times. The artists who made these pictures are all followers of Darwin. Their pictures are all false and wholly the product of their imagination.


[Link: us1.harunyahya.com...]

128 Sharmuta  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:22:29pm

I also predict they will not click a single link posted for them to review. $10 on that.

129 Rich H  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:22:32pm

This all indicates to me that there should be a strict separation between school and state.

Let private Christian fundamentalist institutions (or other religions) teach (without public subsidy) what they want. Then let their graduates compete in the real world without the advantage of government subsidy.

130 swamprat  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:22:43pm

re: #108 Brit in Japan

I was looking.....your #9 and#4 covers part of my post.

131 Unakite  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:22:55pm

re: #121 mich-again

That sounds pretty much like the "Allah willing" line we always hear from the Muslim fundies. But most all Christians do not believe in predestination. Most subscribe to the notion that G* gave us free will. Otherwise, whats the point of heaven and hell. Other than it makes for a good name for a Black Sabbath song.

Insha'Allah.

132 calcajun  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:23:05pm

re: #125 DistantThunder

Doesn't the wiccan version of creation involve lots of sexual rituals? Now that would be an interesting addition to class.

Aye, at some point, the great father gets too tired and yes, the excess earth makes her look fat.

133 Last Mohican  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:23:27pm

Charles, I want to thank you for exposing all of these attempts at forcing creationism into public education, and for continuing to have so many of these creationism threads, despite whatever controversy it may cause.

I have to admit, when you started doing it, I had no idea why, and I just skipped over the threads. I couldn't figure out why you'd spend so much effort exposing the efforts of a handful of powerless crackpots whose ideas haven't been taken seriously in America for at least fifty years. You have made me realize that they're not powerless, and they're not just a handful. And they're not just an embarrassment, but a serious danger to our country's education system, and our country as a whole.

134 jcm  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:24:08pm

re: #128 Sharmuta

I also predict they will not click a single link posted for them to review. $10 on that.

They might read something that will shake their faith.......

135 DistantThunder  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:24:29pm

re: #127 jaunte

[Link: us1.harunyahya.com...]

What creationists hate to imagine is not only that we may have evolved from apes but that we may evolve into something even closer to god. Think they'd want me discussing that in class?

136 Shay4l  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:25:50pm

FYI I belive this is coming
Market lows

137 pingjockey  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:26:23pm

re: #135 DistantThunder
Watch it! The Q may show up and put you on trial!

138 Salamantis  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:27:19pm

re: #94 mich-again

Forget all that biology stuff. The reason Homo Sapiens are still around and Neanderthals aren't is because our ancestors befriended dogs and the Neanderthals didn't. We figured out how to whistle and they never did.

The coordinated system of perception and action which humans possess took millions of years to develop, and our huge and finely articulated brains required constant selective reinforcement from the environment in order to evolve. In this sense, our quick strong bright nimbleness is a result of the pre-reproductive demise of a lot of slow weak clumsy dumb ancestors. These are individual skills; those with them have a prima facie reproductive advantage over those without them. Language, however, is social. What possible use could it have been for the first mutant to have a modest capacity for linguistic expression in the absence of interlocutors? Language facility is simply not a likely candidate for gradual evolution in the same manner as hunting and gathering skills. It is much more likely that a genetically dominant second order mutation in brain systems organization hijacked an already elaborated hand-eye coordination system and applied it to the "mouth-ear" nexus (Uniquely Human, Philip Lieberman, 1991). In this way, the social benefits could be realized in just a few generations. Once this mutation spread within a group of hunter-gatherers, its members could communicate much more efficently, particularly in cases where gestures would be useless: out of line of sight – a pivotal skill in nomadic foraging bands. And thus did the New Speakers outcompete their bright yet mute Neanderthal adversaries; studies of frozen Neanderthal bodies show that, due to the fact that their palates were differently constructed than ours, they lacked the anatomical ability to produce a wide enough variety of distinguishable sounds to support a the creation of a substantial vocabulary.

139 Sharmuta  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:27:49pm

re: #109 jaunte

I don't think it will be limited to science teachers. The effects will spill over. Standards will drop in all subjects, if the teacher want to make an argument that there is a 'controversy.' Especially if that controversy has any constituency the school board doesn't want to deal with.

And that's why I've repeatedly mentioned history class and Holocaust revisionism. This is very dangerous, because when we stop learning history, we doom ourselves to repeat those mistakes.

We start allowing teachers to be rogue agents in shaping curriculum, who knows what the hell will be going on in the schools next. This isn't "academic freedom", it academic anarchy!

140 MandyManners  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:27:50pm

re: #129 Rich H

This all indicates to me that there should be a strict separation between school and state.

Let private Christian fundamentalist institutions (or other religions) teach (without public subsidy) what they want. Then let their graduates compete in the real world without the advantage of government subsidy.

Not all fundamentalist Christian schools teach nonsense. The Kid's school teaches the Bible during daily chapel, and science during science class.

141 MandyManners  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:28:27pm

re: #134 jcm

They might read something that will shake their faith.......

Wouldn't that mean their faith isn't strong to beging with?

142 MandyManners  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:28:53pm

re: #141 MandyManners

Crud. I shouldn't be judging anyone's faith. I apologize.

143 mich-again  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:29:01pm

re: #129 Rich H

Let private Christian fundamentalist institutions (or other religions) teach (without public subsidy) what they want.

As it turns out, just about all Religious institutions in the USA are subsidized by the public. Its commonly referred to as their tax-free status.

I attend Church and drop an envelope in the basket every week, but as an American I have a basic problem with the whole tax free status that Churches, Mosques, Synagogues, etc.. enjoy in the USA. And I might agree to it if the place of worship was simply that. But the tax free status extends to gymnasiums, recording studios, golf courses, swimming pools, apartment complexes, vehicle fleets, and who can say what else.

In my opinion, that amounts to a subsidy. And the first rule of Government is that you will ALWAYS get more of whatever you subsidize.

144 jcm  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:29:21pm

re: #141 MandyManners

Wouldn't that mean their faith isn't strong to beging with?

DING!

They feel their faith threathened, hence the vitriol in the emails Charles gets.

145 Last Mohican  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:29:38pm

re: #139 Sharmuta

A good point.

At some schools in the UK, history teachers no longer mention the holocaust. Because doing so was "offending" the parents of the Muslims kids, who insist that the holocaust didn't happen.

146 pingjockey  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:30:01pm

re: #142 MandyManners
S'alright, I was thinking the same thing.
Shouldn't have but I was.

147 Racer X  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:30:18pm

ELO - Ordinary Dream

148 swamprat  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:30:24pm

re: #125 DistantThunder Pretty much all wiccan rituals can...The parking space spell needs 3 or 4 participants and a bottle of baby oil...

149 pingjockey  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:31:03pm

re: #145 Last Mohican
That is just mad.

150 pingjockey  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:35:04pm

Hello?

151 Last Mohican  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:35:42pm

re: #150 pingjockey

Hello?

Hello!

152 jcm  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:36:06pm

re: #150 pingjockey

Hello?

Ping, this is God, I've taken everyone but you.

Sorry, Ping.

;-P

153 pink freud  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:36:16pm

re: #150 pingjockey

Hello?

Hello!

154 mich-again  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:36:30pm

re: #138 Salamantis

I dinged you up about 3 sentences into that just for the effort you extend educating. Not joking. I learn so much here.

So your theory is the ability to verbalize is what separated us from the Neanderthals. OK, I'll admit that is a compelling argument. But I think its the link to dogs. The fossil record supports the dog hypothesis.

The Homo Sapiens- Dog symbiotic relationship is a compelling explanation. Especially to current dog owners who occasionally wonder why people ever started letting these animals into their homes. Why not raccoons or geese?

155 pingjockey  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:36:30pm

Whew!, Thought my inter-tube device had went batshit.

156 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:36:50pm

re: #148 swamprat

Pretty much all wiccan rituals can...The parking space spell needs 3 or 4 participants and a bottle of baby oil...

The problem is that just a few lazy Wiccans can completely mess up your weekend plans. Years ago, when I was doing the college back east thing we had a snowstorm on May 1. I came down to breakfast to find my Lutheran study partner having a stern talk with the Wiccans about their failure to get out into the fields and make with the love.

The excuses! "It was cold." "I have a calc quiz today." "I have a girlfriend in Ohio." "OMG, today's Beltane! I FORGOT!"

This kind of behavior...

157 pingjockey  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:37:00pm

re: #152 jcm
So long. and thanks for all the fish!

158 jcm  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:38:02pm

re: #157 pingjockey

So long. and thanks for all the fish!

LOL!

159 pingjockey  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:38:28pm

Night folks, shower then see what kind of plot twists BSG has got this week.

160 Racer X  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:39:32pm

The Worst Tattoos on Women

#1 has to be Rat Fink

Or "Baby on Board"

161 MandyManners  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:39:54pm

Good night, Lizards!

162 Randall Gross  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:40:35pm

Time for me to get some sleeps

The national anthem... of East Tennessee from Chet

Youtube Video
163 Sharmuta  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:41:18pm

re: #145 Last Mohican

A good point.

At some schools in the UK, history teachers no longer mention the holocaust. Because doing so was "offending" the parents of the Muslims kids, who insist that the holocaust didn't happen.

The chapters on the Crusades are next.

164 calcajun  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:41:36pm

re: #156 SanFranciscoZionist

The problem is that just a few lazy Wiccans can completely mess up your weekend plans. Years ago, when I was doing the college back east thing we had a snowstorm on May 1. I came down to breakfast to find my Lutheran study partner having a stern talk with the Wiccans about their failure to get out into the fields and make with the love.

The excuses! "It was cold." "I have a calc quiz today." "I have a girlfriend in Ohio." "OMG, today's Beltane! I FORGOT!"

This kind of behavior...

That explains the crop failure that year.

165 mich-again  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:42:13pm

re: #145 Last Mohican

Today on the radio I heard that the UK refused to let Fred Phelps and his band of idiots in because they do not welcome extremists. And I H8 Fred Phelps as much as anyone but when I heard that statement about not wanting Religious extremists into their Country I laughed out loud in the car. C'mon. They gotta have a better lie than that one! Geeze. Their mosques and streets are crawling with extremists.

166 NY Nana  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:43:58pm

In case anyone has missed the hamsters, I think I have found where they went....

Youtube Video
167 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:44:21pm

re: #163 Sharmuta

The chapters on the Crusades are next.

No, they'll be kept. They can be taught in such a way as to make the West look very bad.

Of course, I think you have to be off your rocker to teach them in a way that makes the West look GOOD. But still. They have mining potential.

168 Randall Gross  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:44:44pm

re: #165 mich-again

On their behalf they have recently ( like the last week) issued either new laws or guidances on radical hate preaching. We'll see how that goes.

169 Rich H  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:45:08pm

re: #143 mich-again

As it turns out, just about all Religious institutions in the USA are subsidized by the public. Its commonly referred to as their tax-free status.

I am not a friend of religious institutions, nor am I an enemy.

But tax free status is not a subsidy. If churches ceased to exist the treasury would not assume a net increase in revenue.

170 Salamantis  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:46:29pm

re: #148 swamprat

Pretty much all wiccan rituals can...The parking space spell needs 3 or 4 participants and a bottle of baby oil...

If you wanna make fun of a religion, please refrain from picking on mine, when you obviously don't know jack shit about it.

The Great Rite, that initiates an acolyte into Priesthood or Priestesshood, is indeed symbolic intercourse (represented by an athame (knife) being dipped into a wine-filled chalice). In contrast, eating the wine and wafer - that is, the consumption of the body and blood of Christ (which, according to the doctrine of transubstantiation are not virtual, but actual) - is ritual cannibalism, no less than scarfing up the simmered carcass of Valentine Michael Smith was in Robert A. Heinlein's novel Stranger in a Strange Land (and he consciously patterned that scene after the Receiving of the sacrement).

What is more offensive or ridiculous; to symbolically fuck your God, or to symbolically eat Him?

171 Last Mohican  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:46:41pm

re: #154 mich-again

The Homo Sapiens- Dog symbiotic relationship is a compelling explanation. Especially to current dog owners who occasionally wonder why people ever started letting these animals into their homes. Why not raccoons or geese?

I watched an interesting documentary about dogs once. The idea was that dogs evolved because a few wolves (or precursors thereof, I suppose) had an urge to hang around near humans and, basically, to be lovable, rather than remaining snarly human-avoiding creatures like the wolves were. Being lovable had evolutionary value, because it caused humans to admit them into their places of shelter, and to toss them some bones and let them lick some bowls, which provided an easier food source than having to go hunt things down and kill them.

I'm sure I'm not doing the argument justice in this quick summary. But I thought it was an appealing idea. In a sense, the very purpose of the canine species is to be "man's best friend."

172 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:47:23pm

weet dreams all!

Say hey to Realwest for me.

173 Sheepdogess  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:47:56pm

re: #126 SanFranciscoZionist

Catholic schools ain't what they used to be.

Social Justice = Marxism fascism
3 wds

174 Rich H  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:48:43pm

re: #140 MandyManners

"Not all fundamentalist Christian schools teach nonsense. The Kid's school teaches the Bible during daily chapel, and science during science class."

I didn't mean to imply that all religious or fundamentalist schools are bad. I apologize if I implied that. Schools such as you describe would do even better IMO in an even level free market.

175 swamprat  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:50:07pm

re: #170 Salamantis

Most of my family are pagan.

176 mich-again  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:50:48pm

re: #167 SanFranciscoZionist

I think you have to be off your rocker to teach them in a way that makes the West look GOOD.

The Crusades were a very predictable response to the conversion-by-sword strategy employed by the Muslims. Most Westerners don't know much of anything about the Crusades but cite them anyway.

177 Salamantis  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:50:54pm

re: #154 mich-again

I dinged you up about 3 sentences into that just for the effort you extend educating. Not joking. I learn so much here.

So your theory is the ability to verbalize is what separated us from the Neanderthals. OK, I'll admit that is a compelling argument. But I think its the link to dogs. The fossil record supports the dog hypothesis.

The Homo Sapiens- Dog symbiotic relationship is a compelling explanation. Especially to current dog owners who occasionally wonder why people ever started letting these animals into their homes. Why not raccoons or geese?

If you can't speak, it's kinda hard to call your dog. I do't think it has anything to do with Neanderthals not embracing kinship with animals, or empathy for their fellow tribe members, for anthropologists have excavated sites in which they buried their dead surrounded by the skulls of cave bears and covered with flowers.

178 Unakite  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:50:57pm

re: #165 mich-again

Today on the radio I heard that the UK refused to let Fred Phelps and his band of idiots in because they do not welcome extremists. And I H8 Fred Phelps as much as anyone but when I heard that statement about not wanting Religious extremists into their Country I laughed out loud in the car. C'mon. They gotta have a better lie than that one! Geeze. Their mosques and streets are crawling with extremists.

Yes, but it's politically incorrect and insensitive to point that out....wouldn't want to upset them, they might explode.

179 swamprat  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:51:15pm

re: #175 swamprat

Most of my family are pagan.

Some are wiccan.

180 traderjoe9  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:51:49pm

OT:

Are there any lawyers on here with time to answer several very quick questions (through email)?

181 Syrah  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:52:40pm

Well my friends, I will bid you all an early "good night".

I had an unusually good day at the office. We have a new project that is performing remarkably well. We have crushed another in house competitor and dang it, it feels good to "win" every once in a while.

Unfortunately I know too much about my company's finances and far too much about politics and current affairs to believe that tonight's victories are anything but a most ephemeral moment.

I am in a most cheery melancholy.

Play nice.

Be forgiving.

Take the time each day to to count your blessings in everything and even in the small and oft over looked things.

Stuff is just stuff, but life is life.

Goodnight.

182 Brit in Japan  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:53:42pm

re: #145 Last Mohican

A good point.

At some schools in the UK, history teachers no longer mention the holocaust. Because doing so was "offending" the parents of the Muslims kids, who insist that the holocaust didn't happen.

Hey Last Mohican, do you have a link on that? (I'm not calling you out - and I can easily believe it - I just hadn't heard it before and would like to show it to someone else).

BiJ

183 mich-again  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:55:14pm

re: #169 Rich H

If churches ceased to exist the treasury would not assume a net increase in revenue.

I wholeheartedly disagree. Religious Institutions of all flavors compete with private businesses (that actually have to pay taxes) for customers and their cash. Day care centers, Private schools, health clubs, Golf courses.. I could go on. My point is that the US taxpayers subsidize all sorts of far flung enterprises that are allegedly tied to "Religion". I call Bullshit.

184 Salamantis  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:56:36pm

re: #156 SanFranciscoZionist

The problem is that just a few lazy Wiccans can completely mess up your weekend plans. Years ago, when I was doing the college back east thing we had a snowstorm on May 1. I came down to breakfast to find my Lutheran study partner having a stern talk with the Wiccans about their failure to get out into the fields and make with the love.

The excuses! "It was cold." "I have a calc quiz today." "I have a girlfriend in Ohio." "OMG, today's Beltane! I FORGOT!"

This kind of behavior...

Wiccans consider nature to be a manifestation of immanent divinity, and, since they consider it to be a religious duty to be attuned to its changes, are much less likely than oblivious transcendentalists to freeze their asses off in an inappropriate climate.

Maybe mad dogs and Englishmen walk hatless in the noonday sun, but British Wiccans full well know to stay in the shade or wear a hat or carry a parasol around.

185 mich-again  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:57:09pm

re: #177 Salamantis

If you can't speak, it's kinda hard to call your dog.

NOT.

Any dog owner knows you don't need words to call your dog.

186 Unakite  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:57:28pm

re: #170 Salamantis

If you wanna make fun of a religion, please refrain from picking on mine, when you obviously don't know jack shit about it.

The Great Rite, that initiates an acolyte into Priesthood or Priestesshood, is indeed symbolic intercourse (represented by an athame (knife) being dipped into a wine-filled chalice). In contrast, eating the wine and wafer - that is, the consumption of the body and blood of Christ (which, according to the doctrine of transubstantiation are not virtual, but actual) - is ritual cannibalism, no less than scarfing up the simmered carcass of Valentine Michael Smith was in Robert A. Heinlein's novel Stranger in a Strange Land (and he consciously patterned that scene after the Receiving of the sacrement).

I wasn't sure whether to be offended or laugh, so I laughed. I was raised a Catholic and you're right about the transubstantiation thing. It always tasted like bread and wine to me (oops!).

What is more offensive or ridiculous; to symbolically fuck your God, or to symbolically eat Him?

187 calcajun  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:58:48pm

re: #180 traderjoe9

Bit tired but what do you need? Generally. It also depends on what state you live in.

188 Sharmuta  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:01:55pm

Mammoth skeleton found nearly intact in Los Angeles

The nearly complete skeleton of a massive Columbian mammoth who died during the last ice age has been dug out of a construction site near the La Brea Tar Pits in downtown Los Angeles, a remarkable find even in the fossil-rich area, scientists said Wednesday.

Included in the cache of fossils were some 700 specimens, including a large prehistoric American Lion skull, lion bones, bones from dire wolves, saber-toothed cats, juvenile horse and bison, teratorn, coyotes, lynx and ground sloths.

The discovery is expected to double the size of the museum's collection.

189 traderjoe9  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:01:57pm

re: #187 calcajun

Bit tired but what do you need? Generally. It also depends on what state you live in.

Its for career project in school...part of the project is to interview someone from the profession I chose. There's not many questions...would be quick.

I live in California.

190 Unakite  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:02:16pm

re: #186 Unakite

Sorry, I hit the post before typing (it's getting late).

191 Salamantis  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:02:28pm

re: #185 mich-again

NOT.

Any dog owner knows you don't need words to call your dog.

Unless you can't whistle, either. And you failed to address the balance of my post.

192 calcajun  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:02:50pm

re: #188 Sharmuta

Oh crap, they accidentally exhumed Marlon Brando!

193 mich-again  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:02:54pm

re: #170 Salamantis

What is more offensive or ridiculous; to symbolically fuck your God, or to symbolically eat Him?

Stay Classy!

194 calcajun  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:03:21pm

re: #189 traderjoe9

shoot.

195 rawmuse  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:03:30pm

re: #188 Sharmuta

I was watching a vid about that find. Conjecture is that the mammoth stumbles in to the pit, became stuck, bellows, then is set upon by the cats, who in turn become stuck and they all die.

196 Sharmuta  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:05:00pm

re: #192 calcajun

Clearly it's an elaborate set up to continue foisting Godless Darwinism upon impressionable school children!

197 calcajun  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:05:11pm

re: #195 rawmuse

I was watching a vid about that find. Conjecture is that the mammoth stumbles in to the pit, became stuck, bellows, then is set upon by the cats, who in turn become stuck and they all die.

Yep..Sounds like Marlon Brando, alright.

198 traderjoe9  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:06:03pm

re: #194 calcajun

shoot.

Sent. Tell me if you get it.

I really appreciate this!

199 rawmuse  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:06:12pm

re: #197 calcajun

Happy endings make me puddle up.

200 Salamantis  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:07:27pm

re: #190 Unakite

Sorry, I hit the post before typing (it's getting late).

I wasn't sure whether to be offended or laugh, so I laughed. I was raised a Catholic and you're right about the transubstantiation thing. It always tasted like bread and wine to me (oops!).

That's okay; I got your gist, and I giggled, too. A silver chalice would be a cold hard substitute for a warm soft coochie, and what sane woman would really want a actual dagger in her puss?

OF COURSE it's symbolic, no matter what the dogma says!

201 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:07:58pm

This being New Mexico, does Coyote get equal time?

3x-2=10
X=Coyote stole it

202 rawmuse  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:08:49pm

I haven't chimed in about the headline, but this is all sick and depressing beyond words to describe.

203 Dustyvet  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:09:34pm

re: #201 EmmmieG

This being New Mexico, does Coyote get equal time?

3x-2=10
X=Coyote stole it

Is'nt Coyote tied up in a law suit with Acme?


/S

204 Last Mohican  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:10:54pm

re: #182 Brit in Japan

Hey Last Mohican, do you have a link on that? (I'm not calling you out - and I can easily believe it - I just hadn't heard it before and would like to show it to someone else).

BiJ

There was a flurry of stories about this in 2007, all prompted by the findings of a British government study. Here are a few links:
Daily Mail
BBC

These stories evolved into a chain email that started being sent around, claiming that the British Government's official curriculum had been modified to prohibit teaching about the holocaust, in a massive national capitulation to Muslim extremism. That was not true. Quite the contrary, the official curriculum still included the holocaust. It was just that some teachers were independently deciding to leave the holocaust out, because it offended parents of their Muslim students, who believed that the holocaust never happened.

205 Salamantis  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:13:28pm

re: #193 mich-again

Stay Classy!

Given the choice between someoe else's definition of classy, and my own conception of truthful, I'll choose the latter every time. I fall asleep more untroubled that way.

206 Unakite  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:14:20pm

re: #200 Salamantis

That's okay; I got your gist, and I giggled, too. A silver chalice would be a cold hard substitute for a warm soft coochie, and what sane woman would really want a actual dagger in her puss?

OF COURSE it's symbolic, no matter what the dogma says!

Just curious-you got my response, but when I look back at my post (#186), I don't see it (on my end). That's why I sent #190. Been drinking some of that wine for a while, and thought...well, doesn't matter.

207 Cobdenite  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:14:50pm

As Murray Rothbard used to say, do you want to vote for the Republicrats or the Demopublicans? The surge towards authoritarianism and interference in the lives of the citizens appears to animate both parties pretty strongly. Either voters will have to restructure themselves outside of the two-party system, or we're screwed no matter who is at the helm.

208 Unakite  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:15:56pm

re: #206 Unakite

Just curious-you got my response, but when I look back at my post (#186), I don't see it (on my end). That's why I sent #190. Been drinking some of that wine for a while, and thought...well, doesn't matter.

Oh, f*ck. Ignore that. I just went back and noticed that I typed my response somewhere in the middle.

209 swamprat  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:17:02pm

re: #205 Salamantis

Given the choice between someoe else's definition of classy, and my own conception of truthful, I'll choose the latter every time. I fall asleep more untroubled that way.

Rest


easy.

210 mich-again  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:17:08pm

re: #191 Salamantis

And you failed to address the balance of my post.


1) That is clearly an admission that I successfully addressed your first very weak and obviously wrong point.

If you can't speak, it's kinda hard to call your dog.

Which was wrong. Dogs hear sounds not words.

2) Here is the balance of the post that you claim I failed to address..

I do't think it has anything to do with Neanderthals not embracing kinship with animals, or empathy for their fellow tribe members, for anthropologists have excavated sites in which they buried their dead surrounded by the skulls of cave bears and covered with flowers.

Do you really think that is enough to disprove what I said that Neanderthals failed because they could not domesticate dogs? HuH" Are you trying to imply that Neanderthals had a symbiotic relationship with cave bears because there have been some bear skulls found buried with Neanderthals? That is a stretch. Maybe those skulls belonged to the bears that the Neanderthal had killed. Are you trying to imply that Cave bears and Neanderthals were like Humans and dogs? HA! you don't know much about dogs or bears do you?

You apparently are so used to spouting whatever plops into your mind without having to field a decent comeback that you actually feel comfortable making an equivalence to the Neanderthal relationship with cave bears to the early humans' relationship with dogs. Ha. Double HA!

I thought you were smarter than that.

211 Sheepdogess  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:17:14pm

re: #181 Syrah

And be brave..

The bravest are surely those who have the clearest vision of what is before them, glory and danger alike, and yet notwithstanding, go out to meet it.

Thucydides

212 Last Mohican  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:17:38pm

re: #203 Dustyvet

Is'nt Coyote tied up in a law suit with Acme?

/S

Now that you mention it, if Wile E. had himself a good product liability lawyer, he could have taken Acme for hundreds of millions of dollars. He could have been comfortably pampered in a luxury villa for the rest of his life, with roasted road runner served to him on a silver platter for three meals a day. He blew it.

And with that, I gotta nod off. Weet dreams to everyone in honcoland.

213 Salamantis  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:18:07pm

re: #208 Unakite

Oh, f*ck. Ignore that. I just went back and noticed that I typed my response somewhere in the middle.

Damn! And I almost had you believing we pagans were psychic! hehe

214 calcajun  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:18:49pm

re: #198 traderjoe9

You should have my reply

215 calcajun  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:20:32pm

re: #199 rawmuse

Happy endings make me puddle up.

Have you tried Depends? Oh, not that kind of puddling? Never mind.

216 Rich H  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:20:55pm

re: #183 mich-again

Public schools as opposed to private schools are already publicly subsidized. You can't count that. And the amount of tax spending on public education on a per pupil basis is significantly higher than most parochial private schools.

217 srb1976  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:21:31pm

Evening folks! So if we let churches set curriculum in schools does that mean that the gov't can help determine what gets taught in Sunday school?

(sorry, had to get it out of my system)

218 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:22:09pm

re: #217 srb1976

Preach the controversy!

219 calcajun  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:23:17pm

Time to walk the Akitas. Later.

220 Unakite  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:23:56pm

re: #209 swamprat

Rest

easy.

Ooh, looks like a witch's brew-haha.
//////////////////////////

221 Sharmuta  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:24:08pm

re: #217 srb1976

Evening folks! So if we let churches set curriculum in schools does that mean that the gov't can help determine what gets taught in Sunday school?

(sorry, had to get it out of my system)

That's when they'll hypocritically hold up the First Amendment.

222 mich-again  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:24:25pm

re: #216 Rich H

Public schools as opposed to private schools are already publicly subsidized. You can't count that.

Yes I can. Public schools are subjected to public (read: taxpayer) scrutiny. Private schools, not so much.

223 traderjoe9  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:25:00pm

re: #214 calcajun

I got it. Thanks a bunch!

224 srb1976  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:25:04pm

re: #218 Killgore Trout

Preach the controversy!

You know, Little man will be starting kidergarten in a few short years, and we had been considering private school (if we can afford it), but all of them locally are church run, so we had pretty much ruled it out. It's starting to look like it wouldn't make much diference if they're not going to teach science in either school

225 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:25:16pm

re: #217 srb1976

Evening folks! So if we let churches set curriculum in schools does that mean that the gov't can help determine what gets taught in Sunday school?

(sorry, had to get it out of my system)

re: #217 srb1976

Evening folks! So if we let churches set curriculum in schools does that mean that the gov't can help determine what gets taught in Sunday school?

(sorry, had to get it out of my system)

Actually, that is a very good point.
Keep government out of religion, and religion out of government. (Individuals in government can have religion, just not government as a whole.)

Although we seem to be going to a president who is an object of worship, and a faith-based economy.
I thought we left behind the idea of god emperors long ago.

226 calcajun  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:25:51pm

re: #223 traderjoe9

You're welcome.

227 mich-again  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:26:01pm

I'm out. Long day tomorrow. God willing, of course.
/

228 Sharmuta  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:29:01pm

re: #224 srb1976

Catholic schools teach evolution. In fact- when Bill Buckingham was researching biology books in Dover before the ID controversy, the three religious schools he went to for insight all taught evolution. Just because it's a religious school doesn't mean they don't teach science.

229 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:29:23pm

re: #224 srb1976

There are still some good church run schools. Catholics give a good education although I'm still concerned about their clergy around children. Keep looking around, I'm sure there are some good private schools.

230 Salamantis  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:30:39pm

re: #210 mich-again

Do you really think that is enough to disprove what I said that Neanderthals failed because they could not domesticate dogs? HuH" Are you trying to imply that Neanderthals had a symbiotic relationship with cave bears because there have been some bear skulls found buried with Neanderthals? That is a stretch. Maybe those skulls belonged to the bears that the Neanderthal had killed. Are you trying to imply that Cave bears and Neanderthals were like Humans and dogs? HA! you don't know much about dogs or bears do you?

You apparently are so used to spouting whatever plops into your mind without having to field a decent comeback that you actually feel comfortable making an equivalence to the Neanderthal relationship with cave bears to the early humans' relationship with dogs. Ha. Double HA!

I thought you were smarter than that.

Although there have been no cases of which I am aware of Neanderthal bones being found alongside un-gnawed canine bones, it is also the case that far fewer Neanderthal sites than Cro-Magnon sites have been found. And even if it were proven that Neanderthals did not typically bond with canines as Cro-Magnons did, that is no guarantee that this, rather than their relative communicational disadvantage, was the major factor in their losing the competition for survival. After all, it IS proven that they lacked the speech abilities that Cro-Magnon possessed, and this absence would have prevented them from employing out-of-sight communication when fighting, fleeing, or hunting. Perhaps it also inhibited their ability to bond with Lassie's progenitors, perhaps not, but their inability to communicate with anything approaching the same facility or sophistication that Cro-Magnon possessed would seem to me, and to most published anthropologists, to have been the determinative factor here.

231 Unakite  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:30:46pm

re: #213 Salamantis

Damn! And I almost had you believing we pagans were psychic! hehe

Right now, I'm getting to the point where I could believe (almost) anything. Gotta admit that a casual drink (or several), some good, thought-prov...
Ah, hell, just waiting for the late-night drinking thread.

232 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:30:56pm

re: #229 Killgore Trout

There are still some good church run schools. Catholics give a good education although I'm still concerned about their clergy around children. Keep looking around, I'm sure there are some good private schools.

Find a school that has only nuns. They haven't been accused of anything, unlike the priests.

233 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:32:37pm

re: #232 Kosh's Shadow

There have been a few nuns involved but it's very rare.

234 summergurl  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:32:58pm

re: #232 Kosh's Shadow

Find a school that has only nuns. They haven't been accused of anything, unlike the priests.

That's hard to find these days - there is a shortage of nuns and alot of the convents are closing and merging.

235 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:33:45pm

If the Navajo tribe believes Shiprock is sacred, and the Shintos believe that Fuji is sacred, what does this do to geology?

236 Salamantis  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:33:56pm

re: #232 Kosh's Shadow

Find a school that has only nuns. They haven't been accused of anything, unlike the priests.

Just don't choose a school that hires Oprah's fired female teachers...;~)

237 srb1976  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:34:08pm

re: #228 Sharmuta

thanks, unfortunately rural north alabama is not exactly crawling with catholics, our choices are baptist and christian...we're still looking into it. thanks again = )

238 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:35:43pm

Good night, everyone. Long day tomorrow.

239 Salamantis  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:35:44pm

re: #237 srb1976

thanks, unfortunately rural north alabama is not exactly crawling with catholics, our choices are baptist and christian...we're still looking into it. thanks again = )

That's kinda funny, considering that a lotta Baptists consider themselves to be the ONLY true Christians...;~)

240 summergurl  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:35:47pm

re: #237 srb1976

thanks, unfortunately rural north alabama is not exactly crawling with catholics, our choices are baptist and christian...we're still looking into it. thanks again = )

Good luck to you on finding a school then - Georgia gal here and if Baptists there are like Baptists here-- I'd go public

241 Sharmuta  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:36:09pm

Wow!

Intelligent Design Play Causes A Stir At USF

What are the two subjects you don't discuss at the dinner table in America?
Religion and politics, of course.

And that's just what playwright-director James Phillips delves into in his new play, "Bobby and the Chimps," opening next week at the University of South Florida. The story, set in 2008 in Bethlehem, Pa., revolves around a man running for the school board. There's a lot of infighting within his campaign team over the debate about whether to teach evolution or creationism in the classroom.

It's already caused a bit of a stir on campus. A display at the entrance of the campus library promoting the upcoming play and its controversial theme has triggered a few complaints. Richards' phone number is now posted nearby, so he can assure the offended callers that both sides of the issue are represented in the production.

Imagine those phone calls!

242 rustler  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:36:46pm

re: #185 mich-again Problem is Neandrathal's lacked the palatal structure to whistle or make any vocalizations beyonds grunts and groans. It's not so much the speaking that was the problem but rather the limited vocalization.

243 Unakite  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:37:25pm

re: #232 Kosh's Shadow

Find a school that has only nuns. They haven't been accused of anything, unlike the priests.

There's a reason for that. They're all 200 years old (I'm going to hell for this).

244 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:37:44pm

re: #241 Sharmuta

Florida is our wackiest state.

245 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:37:47pm

re: #237 srb1976

thanks, unfortunately rural north alabama is not exactly crawling with catholics, our choices are baptist and christian...we're still looking into it. thanks again = )

Really, I think the feel of the school is more important than anything else. See what their science program is like, see what the atmosphere of the school is. You know your kid(s) and what you want for them.

246 Unakite  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:38:07pm

re: #235 EmmmieG

If the Navajo tribe believes Shiprock is sacred, and the Shintos believe that Fuji is sacred, what does this do to geology?

Nothing.

247 srb1976  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:38:47pm

re: #240 summergurl

I think we're talking about roughly the same people, we've had good luck with the church run day care but they don't really cover anything controversial. I'm holding out hope for one that bills itself as "non-denominational" we just have to get in touch and find out if they mean it

248 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:39:40pm

re: #239 Salamantis

That's kinda funny, considering that a lotta Baptists consider themselves to be the ONLY true Christians...;~)

I'm still trying to figure out what my grandparents-in-law's denomination is. When I ask, my husband looks confused and says "Christian". He also corrects me if I say they are Protestants--Protestants are rich, apparently.

249 Unakite  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:39:46pm

re: #237 srb1976

thanks, unfortunately rural north alabama is not exactly crawling with catholics, our choices are baptist and christian...we're still looking into it. thanks again = )

Are you implying that Baptist's aren't Christian?
///

250 summergurl  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:39:48pm

re: #239 Salamantis

That's kinda funny, considering that a lotta Baptists consider themselves to be the ONLY true Christians...;~)

Yeah the whole thing about Jesus giving the keys to Peter and was the first "Pope" sort of trips them up

251 Sharmuta  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:40:27pm

re: #244 Killgore Trout

I found it interesting that the playwright is ignorant of the growing problem of creationism in his home country.

252 Unakite  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:40:34pm

re: #239 Salamantis

That's kinda funny, considering that a lotta Baptists consider themselves to be the ONLY true Christians...;~)

You beat me to it.

253 summergurl  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:41:45pm

re: #247 srb1976

I think we're talking about roughly the same people, we've had good luck with the church run day care but they don't really cover anything controversial. I'm holding out hope for one that bills itself as "non-denominational" we just have to get in touch and find out if they mean it


Just make sure there aren't snakes involved and I'm not joking...

254 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:42:13pm

re: #227 mich-again

I'm out. Long day tomorrow. God willing, of course.
/

Me, too. Sorry I haven't been very active tonight. Preparations for tomorrow have worn me out.

255 rustler  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:42:14pm

re: #195 rawmuse
Easier belief to hold is water pools form on top of the tar animals move out onto the tar to drink become stuck. Predators remain near water holes as they are an easy source of food and become stuck themselves. No need to involve random chance of a Mammoth randomly walking into the tar pit.

256 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:43:29pm

At Thanksgiving, as part of beginning-class prayer I asked my freshmen to name things they were thankful for. About four of them were thankful that they were not at a Christian high school two or three towns over that I had never heard of.

"What's wrong with Small California Town Christian School?" I asked. They had a list, but the one that stands out for me is that apparently students are not allowed to stand in groups on the playground. This struck me as odd. Teenagers like to bunch up in groups, it makes them feel safe.

257 srb1976  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:44:24pm

re: #249 Unakite

Are you implying that Baptist's aren't Christian?
///

I'll be tactful and go with baptists are.....unique...or, to be fair, the ones I know are..... = )

(mostly kidding, my grandmother is a VERY devout southern baptist, and a big fan of dragging family to church with her when they visit)

258 srb1976  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:45:08pm

re: #253 summergurl

Just make sure there aren't snakes involved and I'm not joking...

We've only got one of those churches in town....I think

259 Salamantis  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:46:52pm

Thag, a hungry Neanderthal with a hunting dog, spots a yummy ungulate (cud-chewing mammal) in the draw below. Thag heads to the mouth of the draw, and thinks, if Dog runs to the head of the draw and drive the Yummy down, I can club it from behind this rock.

Thad tells dog Arrrr!

Dog wags its tail, and head up a hill.

Thad shakes its head, and tells dog ARRRR!

Dog looks quizzically at Thad, wags its tail, then heads up the mouth of the draw, spooking the Yummy, then returns to Thag and wags its tail again.

Thag facepalms, clubs Dog, and carries its carcass back to the cave for dinner.

260 rustler  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:47:40pm

re: #210 mich-again
Neandrathal's worshipped the cave bear as evidenced in their cave drawings. There was no claim to a symbiotic relationship by sala. His claim was that Neandrathal's lacked certain vocal characteristics which would enable Neandrathal's to domesticate dogs in the way cromagnun man did. There is eveidence at neandrathal site to show that they lived in close quarters with wolves. Wolves on top of being pack animals which will adopt as pups almost anything helps in their domestication. But Neandrathal lacked the ability to communicate with the semi domesticated wolves and likely used them as watch dogs and to get rid of some of the animal parts that were less desireable to eat.

261 elevenbravo1969  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:49:30pm

Best tv commercial ever...

Youtube Video
262 Sharmuta  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:50:42pm

Wow! There's another creationist museum and schools take their students there- including some public schools:

'Science' center is all about the Bible
Copley museum teaches students creationism

For nearly four years, school groups of all types have been rolling up to the Akron Fossils & Science Center in Copley Township, a place that — despite its name — is based squarely on the teachings of the Bible.

It's a small, one-story building at the corner of Cleveland-Massillon and Minor roads, a couple of miles south of Copley Circle. If you go inside and look around, you will discover a paean to creationism.

The ''science'' being taught includes a huge display quoting the Book of Genesis and purporting to show that scientific research confirms every word of the Scripture.

263 rustler  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:51:24pm

re: #230 Salamantis I believe there was a site or 2 in europe in which complete wlve skeltons were exhumed in Neandrathal sites. They were rare and likely just the result of a mother wolf killed and the pups found or something so raised with the Tribe/Group/Clan etc.

264 srb1976  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:51:34pm

re: #261 elevenbravo1969

Outstanding!

265 Unakite  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:52:57pm

re: #257 srb1976

I'll be tactful and go with baptists are.....unique...or, to be fair, the ones I know are..... = )

(mostly kidding, my grandmother is a VERY devout southern baptist, and a big fan of dragging family to church with her when they visit)

Yes, Baptists I know are unique. However, I think the church-dragging crosses religious lines. I loved visiting my relatives in PA when I was a kid, except on Sundays.

266 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:54:17pm

One of my girlfriends was raised Southern Baptist.

I was bothered by some of the things that started to develop during college and after--before she went to the Congregationalists. I don't know if this was specific to the churches she was attending or what, but there was a lot of weirdness about sexual issues, and I felt, not a lot of support for women. A sort of paranoid purity.

267 srb1976  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:55:11pm

re: #265 Unakite

Yes, Baptists I know are unique. However, I think the church-dragging crosses religious lines. I loved visiting my relatives in PA when I was a kid, except on Sundays.

ah...but my brother and I wound up living with my grandparents for a year while dad was getting divorced.....you know her church had 3 services a week

268 Dustyvet  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:55:18pm

re: #261 elevenbravo1969

Wondered if she used an Uzi, because that guy has just got to be oozing!

/s

269 summergurl  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:55:35pm

re: #261 elevenbravo1969

LOL Good one

270 Sharmuta  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:55:45pm

That is horrible! This creationist names his museum "Akron Fossils & Science Center" to fool the scientific community into supporting him. More lying for Jesus, I suppose.

[Link: www.ohio.com...]

271 summergurl  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:57:44pm

re: #267 srb1976

ah...but my brother and I wound up living with my grandparents for a year while dad was getting divorced.....you know her church had 3 services a week


Sunday morning - Sunday night and Wednesday night right?

I could never figure that out...

272 Unakite  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:58:27pm

re: #267 srb1976

ah...but my brother and I wound up living with my grandparents for a year while dad was getting divorced.....you know her church had 3 services a week

Ooohh....

273 spudly  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:58:31pm

Richardson would veto it, and it would never pass our dem roundhouse anyway. No chance.

274 srb1976  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 10:59:12pm

re: #271 summergurl

Yep....plus choir practice..... I love my grandma, but that year had a lot of influence on how i see religion, and not the influence she hoped for

275 The Shadow Do  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 11:00:30pm

Anybody with a pet dog knows darn well that just talking to them don't mean shit. They don't speak English or French or whatever. It's ludicrous to think Cromagnum overcame Neanderthal because he could call his dog...here spot!

Dogs respond to various signals from folks and almost never from verbal commands - give them a look, a head nod, a grunt, they get it. Dogs are amazingly perceptive, its why they thrive. Neandrathal would not be at a disadvantage in allying with dogs.

Good dog! Bon chien!
*tail wag*

276 Randall Gross  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 11:01:13pm

re: #207 Cobdenite

Is Rothbard still a "third way" kinda guy? Last I checked he was praising P. Buchanan and Ron Paul.

277 Dustyvet  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 11:02:36pm

re: #271 summergurl

Sunday morning - Sunday night and Wednesday night right?

I could never figure that out...

The Lutheran church I went to with my foster parents, in Princeton, Minnesota held services Sunday morning, Sunday Afternoon, and Wednesday evening. Another thing I hated about foster homes that church was mandatory.

278 Unakite  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 11:04:04pm

re: #270 Sharmuta

That is horrible! This creationist names his museum "Akron Fossils & Science Center" to fool the scientific community into supporting him. More lying for Jesus, I suppose.

[Link: www.ohio.com...]

I like that. I mean, I don't like that, but great way to put it. Of course, if the scientific community is as smart as they are supposed to be, they won't be fooled (fat chance).

279 sanfranciscozionist  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 11:04:21pm

re: #275 The Shadow Do

Anybody with a pet dog knows darn well that just talking to them don't mean shit. They don't speak English or French or whatever. It's ludicrous to think Cromagnum overcame Neanderthal because he could call his dog...here spot!

Dogs respond to various signals from folks and almost never from verbal commands - give them a look, a head nod, a grunt, they get it. Dogs are amazingly perceptive, its why they thrive. Neandrathal would not be at a disadvantage in allying with dogs.

Good dog! Bon chien!
*tail wag*

Read a cool article once about a woman who was teaching a deaf Pitt Bull American Sign Language.

280 sanfranciscozionist  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 11:05:50pm

re: #279 sanfranciscozionist

Read a cool article once about a woman who was teaching a deaf Pitt Bull American Sign Language.

I mean, of course, that she was teaching the dog to UNDERSTAND American Sign. The dog couldn't sign. Sorry.

281 srb1976  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 11:06:01pm

re: #279 sanfranciscozionist

Read a cool article once about a woman who was teaching a deaf Pitt Bull American Sign Language.

I took our big dog (dobie/rott mix) to a basic obedience class, for every command there is a hand signal....dog almost always learns to respond to the hand signal first....no scientific evidence or anything, but interesting to me

282 Brit in Japan  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 11:06:25pm

re: #204 Last Mohican

There was a flurry of stories about this in 2007, all prompted by the findings of a British government study. Here are a few links:
Daily Mail
BBC

These stories evolved into a chain email that started being sent around, claiming that the British Government's official curriculum had been modified to prohibit teaching about the holocaust, in a massive national capitulation to Muslim extremism. That was not true. Quite the contrary, the official curriculum still included the holocaust. It was just that some teachers were independently deciding to leave the holocaust out, because it offended parents of their Muslim students, who believed that the holocaust never happened.

Thanks for that. Gah it makes my blood boil! And I don't even blame the teachers - they are probably afraid of angry muslim parents stalking them after school and attacking them (and I am not exaggerating!).

I hope the next government will do something about this. It's good the newspapers picked it up: Now I hope (in vain?) for action to stop this bullying.

BiJ

283 Salamantis  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 11:06:53pm

re: #275 The Shadow Do

Anybody with a pet dog knows darn well that just talking to them don't mean shit. They don't speak English or French or whatever. It's ludicrous to think Cromagnum overcame Neanderthal because he could call his dog...here spot!

Dogs respond to various signals from folks and almost never from verbal commands - give them a look, a head nod, a grunt, they get it. Dogs are amazingly perceptive, its why they thrive. Neandrathal would not be at a disadvantage in allying with dogs.

Good dog! Bon chien!
*tail wag*

In fact, it is true that Border Collies (one of the brightest canine breeds) are adept at herding sheep through mazes with only the most rudientary head and hand signals from their owners. It is also true that these dogs are first trained via verbal cues, then subsequently weaned off of them and into grasping, and visually seeking, nonverbal signals.

284 Sharmuta  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 11:07:23pm

re: #278 Unakite

I like that. I mean, I don't like that, but great way to put it. Of course, if the scientific community is as smart as they are supposed to be, they won't be fooled (fat chance).

Well- they wouldn't have been fooled had this guy not engaged in falsely naming his museum. Now that they know about it, I'm sure his support from them will go buh-bye. I just think he should be ashamed of himself, but I'm sure he's not.

285 The Shadow Do  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 11:08:29pm

re: #279 sanfranciscozionist

Read a cool article once about a woman who was teaching a deaf Pitt Bull American Sign Language.

And I'll betcha' he got it too!

I've had lots of dogs and I can train them to do almost anything without saying one word.

286 Randall Gross  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 11:08:48pm

A bit more on serious nutball Paleo libertarian Rothbard:

Rothbard split with the Radical Caucus at the 1983 national convention over cultural issues, and aligned himself with what he called the "rightwing populist" wing of the party, notably Lew Rockwell and Ron Paul, who ran for President on the Libertarian Party ticket in 1988, and again on the Republican ticket in 2008.[citation needed]

In 1989, Rothbard left the Libertarian Party and began building bridges to the post-Cold War anti-interventionist right, calling himself a paleolibertarian.[23] He was the founding president of the conservative-libertarian John Randolph Club and supported the presidential campaign of Pat Buchanan in 1992, saying “with Pat Buchanan as our leader, we shall break the clock of social democracy.”[24] However, later he became disillusioned and said Buchanan developed too much faith in economic planning and centralized state power.

287 Randall Gross  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 11:09:12pm

Time for me to get back to sleep.

288 Sharmuta  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 11:09:44pm

re: #286 Thanos

Thanks for the heads up, Thanos.

289 Unakite  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 11:10:57pm

re: #284 Sharmuta

Well- they wouldn't have been fooled had this guy not engaged in falsely naming his museum. Now that they know about it, I'm sure his support from them will go buh-bye. I just think he should be ashamed of himself, but I'm sure he's not.

Well, you know, the ends justify the means, all's fair in love and war, and all that.

290 The Shadow Do  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 11:11:15pm

re: #283 Salamantis

In fact, it is true that Border Collies (one of the brightest canine breeds) are adept at herding sheep through mazes with only the most rudientary head and hand signals from their owners. It is also true that these dogs are first trained via verbal cues, then subsequently weaned off of them and into grasping, and visually seeking, nonverbal signals.

I believe the verbal clues are there for the trainer. The dog could just as well be trained without saying one word.

291 Salamantis  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 11:12:44pm

re: #285 The Shadow Do

And I'll betcha' he got it too!

I've had lots of dogs and I can train them to do almost anything without saying one word.

Yeah, but you have to train them to look at you for the gesture. Verbal cues are traditionally combined with gestures to begin with, so the dog hears you, turns to look at you, and learns to associate the two. I have no doubt that some dogs can be trained without using speech at all, but I also have no doubt that it is quantums more difficult to do so.

And it certainly would not be of any use in out of line of sight communication.

292 sanfranciscozionist  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 11:13:15pm

re: #285 The Shadow Do

And I'll betcha' he got it too!

I've had lots of dogs and I can train them to do almost anything without saying one word.

He apparently knows a really wide range of commands and words. The owner commented, though, that at family gatherings she has had to ask her Italian uncles not to talk so much with the hands, because the dog goes nuts trying to figure out what to do. ;)

293 Randall Gross  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 11:13:35pm

re: #288 Sharmuta

Thanks for the heads up, Thanos.

Welcome. Rothbard passed in 1995 but he's also known for his alliance with Justin Raimondo and Lew Rockwell. He's oft quoted by third way proponents for his anarcho capitalistic views. Sometimes he is right, but mostly he's confused due to the extreme cognitive dissonance of purist libertarians not understanding how people are. In other words they refuse to acknowledge the reality of how humans are, and picture only the ideal "superhumans".... catching on?

294 Sharmuta  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 11:16:57pm

re: #293 Thanos

Yes.

295 rustler  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 11:19:18pm

re: #290 The Shadow Do
I've trained Numerous Akitas for hunting when I was in High School working for a Native American Akita Breeder. When training we trained them in English and Navajo first followed by training with hand signals and short whistles. A smart dog can learn to follow hand signals but it is far easier to train a dog verbally and then add to the training non verbal signals.

296 The Shadow Do  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 11:19:53pm

re: #291 Salamantis

Yeah, but you have to train them to look at you for the gesture. Verbal cues are traditionally combined with gestures to begin with, so the dog hears you, turns to look at you, and learns to associate the two. I have no doubt that some dogs can be trained without using speech at all, but I also have no doubt that it is quantums more difficult to do so.

And it certainly would not be of any use in out of line of sight communication.

In my experience the dog will instinctively look to you for clues. He really does want to do the right thing for you if you have been good to him. Sound will reinforce for sure, but I can get equal results by pointing or nodding. Dogs are amazing in their ability to interpret these simple clues.

I once made a bet (drinking of course) that I could make my dog do anything in reason without saying a word. Friend said make him jump in the bathtub. I looked at the dog, he looked at me, and I nodded in the direction I wanted him to go. He did, when in the bathroom he looked at me again and I nodded towards the tub. He immediately jumped in it.

Not one word. Not practiced. Dogs are very cool.

297 rustler  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 11:22:04pm

re: #296 The Shadow Do Your dog is already trained. In the wild Pups are first tought with growls and yips to indicate jobs well done or not then later they understand to look at the Alpha males and females in hte group for cues with regards to hunting. Training typically takes place verbally before it occurs thru signals.

298 Rustler  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 11:27:29pm

re: #296 The Shadow Do While training Akitas, we had one female around 10 years old that was the Alpha female of the group who was so perceptive she would bring us our water canteen without a single command uttered just by observing the breathing or maybe us licking our lips. She was also prone to pretraining the pups to perform because she had seen us training so often and knew its what we wanted. Noone here said dogs are stupid just that verbal communication helps with the training and moreso with the domestication of these species.

299 The Shadow Do  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 11:33:51pm

re: #297 rustler

Your dog is already trained. In the wild Pups are first tought with growls and yips to indicate jobs well done or not then later they understand to look at the Alpha males and females in hte group for cues with regards to hunting. Training typically takes place verbally before it occurs thru signals.

Sorry, I don't agree. Dogs don't talk though they do vocalize when excited. They first learn by simple reward (I have food!) and then only later associate behaviors and rewards with sound. Yes it is a hunting behavior. Dogs communicate by tail position, ear set, etc. but aside from the threatining growl/bark don't much rely on sound to message. "Sit" from a human means I get a biscuit or at least a pat on the head - watch the tail set, the ears, etc.

But it ain't dog speak. Meet a dog as a dog and you have become a great dog trainer.

300 Rustler  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 11:39:27pm

re: #299 The Shadow Do I've trained hundreds of dogs, I have Observed wolves in the wild both at the hunt and caring for pups I have seen first hand they train their young with sound before allowing them to hunt for real. You can believe as you wish but I will believe my own observations of both Wolves, highly domesticated dogs and Semi Domesticated animals(Huskies, Akitas, Malamutes are all still only Semi Domesticated and have lots in Common with their wild wolf ancestors).

301 The Shadow Do  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 11:44:07pm

re: #300 Rustler

I've trained hundreds of dogs, I have Observed wolves in the wild both at the hunt and caring for pups I have seen first hand they train their young with sound before allowing them to hunt for real. You can believe as you wish but I will believe my own observations of both Wolves, highly domesticated dogs and Semi Domesticated animals(Huskies, Akitas, Malamutes are all still only Semi Domesticated and have lots in Common with their wild wolf ancestors).

Sorry, I have never observed canines training their young by sound. You may well be right, I just have not seen it.

I have seen nipping and such but not vocalization in pup training. This does surprise me.

302 Salamantis  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 11:44:12pm

re: #296 The Shadow Do

In my experience the dog will instinctively look to you for clues. He really does want to do the right thing for you if you have been good to him. Sound will reinforce for sure, but I can get equal results by pointing or nodding. Dogs are amazing in their ability to interpret these simple clues.

I once made a bet (drinking of course) that I could make my dog do anything in reason without saying a word. Friend said make him jump in the bathtub. I looked at the dog, he looked at me, and I nodded in the direction I wanted him to go. He did, when in the bathroom he looked at me again and I nodded towards the tub. He immediately jumped in it.

Not one word. Not practiced. Dogs are very cool.

I know that dogs are very cool. Fuzzy was a mutt, but he was the perfect camp dog. His mother was a fox terrier and his father was a black lab (and don't ask me how they managed it; I have no idea, and don't even wanna picture it). He had a long low wide stocky body covered with thick black curly hair (hence the name Fuzzy), and weighed about 50 lbs. I raised and trained him to camp with me from a pup. He would follow me away from camp until we got out of sight of it or until we crossed water. He would then return (unless I told him to stay with me), and sit under a bush so that he could watch the camp without being seen. If someone approached while I was gone, he would put on his frightful face (and his canines were quite impressive), and interpose himself between my tent and the intruder, while bugling to let me know to hasten back. He also rested under a concealing bush when I was in camp, but then he would just yip so I'd know someone was approaching, then get up, wag his tail, and go greet the stranger.

He fell victim to a sudden, fast-acting bacterial infection that the vet couldn't stop with all the antibiotics at his disposal. I still grieve his loss.

But as bright as he was, I couldn't tell him what to do if he was on the other side of a hill or blocked by trees and I had laryngitis. But if he didn't understand a verbal command, he would return to me for clarification.

I really loved him, and the way we worked together. He did, too - I could tell. The joy sparkled in his eyes.

303 The Shadow Do  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 11:48:06pm

re: #302 Salamantis

Man, I love me some dogs. Sounds like you had a really good friend. Tough loss, I know.

304 Dan G.  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 11:49:42pm

re: #69 Summer

No, its to make way for the "soul"; they doubt that the "mind" resides in the brain (i.e. de anima is the soul not the brain). I'll try to dig up the stories I read about this, it might take a week or two.

305 Dan G.  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 11:54:42pm

re: #304 Dan G.

Creationists declare war over the brain

306 Salamantis  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:02:46am

re: #303 The Shadow Do

Man, I love me some dogs. Sounds like you had a really good friend. Tough loss, I know.

While camping, Fuzzy slept outside on guard - that was his job. But at home, he was a house dog. Although he loved the woods, the backyard bored him, and though he would ask to be let outside to do his business, he would also ask to come back in as soon as he was through, because he wanted to be with his family. At home, his dish was inside, and he slept with the missus and me on the foot of the bed, next to the cat, who was also a friend of his and grieved him, too(they were raised together); she periodically hunted through the house for him, yowling for him to appear, for weeks after he passed away.

307 Wendya  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:55:49am

I believe they tried this during the last two legislative sessions and it died a quick death.

The NM Public Education Department has already done an analysis for the legislature stating this is at odds with current standards and enacting it would open the state to expensive lawsuits.

You can see their analysis by looking up the bill here:

[Link: 164.64.166.10...]

My prediction? This will go nowhere.

308 [deleted]  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:12:53am
309 [deleted]  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:32:22am
310 cronus  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 5:50:30am

Jindal is on Meet the Press this Sunday and David Gregory has a thread on his blog asking for questions. Looks like a couple comments are already touching on creationism.

311 pious agnostic  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 5:52:45am

It breaks my heart that the GOP, a party that I support passionately, would waste it's energies on this crap. How can we convince any intelligent person that our economic and foreign policies are correct, when at the same time we have to defend ourselves from those within our party who wish to undermine the Constitution with creationist claptrap?

Sometimes the tent is just too damn big.

312 cronus  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 6:34:18am

re: #311 pious agnostic

My sentiments exactly.

313 [deleted]  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 7:26:01am
314 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 7:27:34am

Do martyr cookies protect one from fleas?

315 Basho  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 7:45:12am

re: #35 Charles

Waah! Charles! Stop stop stop! This is boring! Global warming! You're turning into Andrew Sullivan! Who cares! Jihad! I'll pray for you as you burn in eternal torment! :-)

Hehehe! Nice

316 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 7:46:23am

re: #310 cronus

Jindal is on Meet the Press this Sunday and David Gregory has a thread on his blog asking for questions. Looks like a couple comments are already touching on creationism.

Thanks! I left a comment, but Mr. Gregory needs to approve it.

317 Haverwilde  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 7:56:52am

re: #302 Salamantis

I know that dogs are very cool. Fuzzy was a mutt, but he was the perfect camp dog. His mother was a fox terrier and his father was a black lab (and don't ask me how they managed it; I have no idea, and don't even wanna picture it).

Lived in a house with a Welsh Corgi and an Irish Wolfhound bitch. The wolfhound went into heat, and the Corgi got all hot an bothered and tried to mount her. We would laugh. Finally the Wolfhound lay down so that the Corgi could accomplish his desire. It suddenly wasn't funny anymore; and we had to separate them fast. The image in my mind of the offspring is well, weird.

318 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:06:43am

re: #313 sanwin

I see you're still logged in. I thought you were leaving?

319 Lynn B.  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:16:12am

re: #318 Sharmuta

I see you're still logged in. I thought you were leaving?

Not any more.

#313 has been shown the door.

320 Sharmuta  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:18:25am

re: #319 Lynn B.

It really is amazing- they want to be gone so badly, but apparently have no self-control. Don't want to use your account? Don't use it. But, no- they have to have Stinky do it for them. Pathetic.

321 Lynn B.  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:28:20am

re: #320 Sharmuta

It really is amazing- they want to be gone so badly, but apparently have no self-control. Don't want to use your account? Don't use it. But, no- they have to have Stinky do it for them. Pathetic.

It really is. A pathetic cry for attention. Especially for ones like this one who've been registered here for almost five years and posted a whopping 43 comments. Who would even know they're gone if they didn't flame out?

It's all about the martyr cookies.

322 Ziggy Standard  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 8:44:57am

re: #305 Dan G.

Creationists declare war over the brain

I wonder what took them so long. There are genuinely puzzling and, on the face of it, mysterious problems associated with explaining consciousness just waiting for them to try to exploit with their bullshit.

It may be time to brush up on our Dennet, Chalmers etc.

323 wrenchwench  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 9:22:37am

Thanks for the hat tip, Charles. I owe you for letting me know this bill existed.

There is a helpful .pdf at the second link posted at the top. Here's a link.

Annotated Comments on the Intelligent
Design Creationist Bill (SB433) Submitted
to the New Mexico State Senate for the
2009 Regular Session

That's the title.

324 claire  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 12:37:15pm

re: #307 Wendya

Thanks, Wendya- It looks like the Education Department is ahead of the curve on this one- Good thing- Still very embarassing for this state.

I had no idea there was an "Intelligent Design Network" in NM. Geezus. This idiot, Joe Renick is actually giving a Univerisity of New Mexico Continuing Education course on Intelligent Design here in April.

Still going to try to get up to Santa Fe for the hearing in the education committee should the bill get that far. If anybody else wants to go you can check the schedule here.

And the worst part! I just found my Chemistry professor's name on the Discovery Institute's list of 100 Scientists who don't think Evolution is a sifficient explanation! Carl Poppe, now of Lawrence Livermore Labs. It's getting really scary!

325 wrenchwench  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 1:47:35pm

re: #324 claire

Hi Claire. You said on another thread that Kent Cravens is your senator, if I recall correctly. Could you ask him how he reconciles in his head the sponsorship of the creationist bill AND the sponsorship of this memorial?

A MEMORIAL

DECLARING MARCH 9, 2009 AS "NEW MEXICO MESA DAY" AT THE SENATE.

WHEREAS, New Mexico MESA, incorporated, a nonprofit organization, in partnership with schools and universities, promotes educational enrichment for pre-college students from historically underrepresented ethnic groups; and

WHEREAS, currently New Mexico MESA is in one hundred ten schools statewide and has grown dramatically since its introduction in 1982 in seven schools; and

WHEREAS, New Mexico MESA provides thousands of middle, junior and high school students with year-round support and career guidance; and

WHEREAS, New Mexico MESA activities include tutoring, advanced study, college and career counseling, field trips and academic competitions, leadership workshops, summer programs, scholarship incentives, community services and teacher professional development; and

WHEREAS, New Mexico MESA provides support not only to students but also to their teachers, families and communities; and

WHEREAS, through the efforts of New Mexico MESA, participating students receive the educational enrichment experiences and practical help they need to achieve academic excellence and prepare for college majors in mathematics, engineering and the sciences;

NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED BY THE SENATE OF THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO that it declare March 9, 2009 as "New Mexico MESA Day" at the senate; and

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that it hereby recognize and applaud the New Mexico MESA organization for its dedication to preparing minority students for careers in mathematics, engineering and the sciences; and

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that a copy of this memorial be transmitted to New Mexico MESA, incorporated.

326 claire  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 5:52:17pm

re: #325 wrenchwench

I would love to- Problem is, these guys think they are actually improving education with this crap. They won't get what the problem could possibly be and they have no shame.

327 Wendya  Sat, Feb 21, 2009 6:20:40pm

re: #324 claire

Thanks, Wendya- It looks like the Education Department is ahead of the curve on this one- Good thing- Still very embarassing for this state.

I wouldn't worry about it based on the number of people who don't even know New Mexico is part of the USA. ;)

It doesn't look like SB 433 is on the agenda for next week. I'll keep an eye on the schedule since there's another piece of legislation I'm tracking this session.


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Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ...
Cheechako
4 weeks ago
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