Harry’s Place Notices the Bloodbath

Blogosphere • Views: 2,270

The increasing stridency of the US right is being noticed on the other side of the Big Pond: The Civil War On the U.S. Right.

With the defeat of Bush, the U.S. Right wing blogosphere has gone nuts, and have started to slaughter each other. It is a tragic sight, and not one in which we should take any pleasure.

None of this is surprising. Political parties are coalitions of interests. In the US Right, there are religious conservatives and humane fiscal conservatives and economic liberals. Bush’s Presidency bound them together. Now that Obama is president, those bonds are dissolving. What this has meant, is that the more eccentric elements of the conservative Right, free of any restraining propriety, have launched themselves into the void of silliness.

It isn’t confined to the blogosphere. I get the impression that this is what is happening generally, on the U.S. Right.

The lunacy is heterogenous. Some champion the theory that President Obama was born outside the U.S., which would - if true - make him ineligible to serve as President. Others are pushing the so-called ‘intelligent design’ fraud.

With a quote from yours truly, accompanied by this commentary:

Charles Johnson, who runs the website Little Green Footballs, has become a particular target for that faction of the U.S. Right. He has become increasingly outspoken against those who push ‘birth certificate‘ nonsense, or who pander to ‘intelligent design‘ nuts, and most of those who - like Rush Limbaugh - want Obama to fail…

(Hat tip: MJ.)

Jump to bottom

460 comments
1 zombie  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:40:12pm

It's a meltdown, baby.

2 Captain Amercia  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:40:22pm

Like Rush, I just want Obama's policies to fail.

3 pingjockey  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:41:11pm

The loonies cannot stand common sense, nor has logic found a place with them.

4 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:41:43pm
With the defeat of Bush...

Ha! See, he was running for a third term. I just knew it!
///

5 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:41:51pm

re: #1 zombie

It's a meltdown, baby.

And it threatens to make us all politically radioactive.

6 quickslow87  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:41:58pm

Hooray for rational thought.

7 Captain Amercia  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:42:15pm

re: #4 Slumbering Behemoth

Ha! See, he was running for a third term. I just knew it!
///

How did he not win?

8 pingjockey  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:42:31pm

re: #5 Dark_Falcon
Well it already mutated the hamsters!

9 The Sanity Inspector  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:42:34pm

Let's just hope this is 'creative destruction'; and our side re-emerges stronger and better than before.

10 Bloodnok  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:42:59pm

Good to see there are more rationalists around.

11 zombie  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:43:07pm

If we are going to have a Total Personality Disintegration, this is the time to do it.

We are four years off from the next presidential election. Best bet is to dissolve the 9/11-Bush coalition now, and reformulate. GIve the the new configurationa few years to gestate and take root before we start gearing up for 2012.

Having this same civil war in the run-up to 2012 would indeed be disastrous, in that Obama would waltz in unopposed.

12 Jetpilot1101  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:43:13pm

The GOP would do well to throw out all factions that want to introduce their brand of religion into the party. Let them start their own party. At least then it will be an all out war and not a civil war.

13 itellu3times  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:43:22pm

Boy, the Internet may be useful after all, if it lets sane people worldwide find each other.

Doesn't use up the same bandwidth as pr0n, but even so.

/

14 Mithrax  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:43:26pm

Why are sanity and raltionalism the first casualty?

Boggles my mind. But then again, maybe we've forgotten that our minds ARE a terrible thing to waste.

15 Captain Amercia  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:43:57pm

re: #12 Jetpilot1101

The GOP would do well to throw out all factions that want to introduce their brand of religion into the party. Let them start their own party. At least then it will be an all out war and not a civil war.

Let's also throw out any POTUS pretender contenders who will only lose to the empty suit.

16 Seagreenroom  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:43:57pm

People are simply realizing what took place on 11/4/08. We now have an enemy of America sitting in the Oval Office.

That makes people a little crazy.

17 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:43:58pm

re: #7 Captain Amercia

How did he not win?

He lost his nirth certifikat.
/

18 zombie  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:44:31pm

re: #11 zombie

this same civil war in the run-up to 2012 would indeed be disastrous, in that Obama would waltz in unopposed.

(Obama will likely waltz in unopposed anyway, but at least this way we have a chance at putting together a coherent counter-strategy.)

19 swamprat  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:44:34pm

Does this postion us in front of the pack? Did Charles just stage a coup by being true to himself a casting all asunder?

Sure is starting to look that way.

20 pingjockey  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:44:36pm

re: #17 Slumbering Behemoth
Oh noez, teh horror!

21 Captain Amercia  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:44:39pm

re: #17 Slumbering Behemoth

He lost his nirth certifikat.
/

Someone tell Pam Geller!

///

22 Mithrax  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:44:44pm

re: #16 Seagreenroom

People are simply realizing what took place on 11/4/08. We now have an enemy of America sitting in the Oval Office.

That makes people a little crazy.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

And two wrongs certainly don't make the right any stronger.

23 pingjockey  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:45:28pm

Dayum laundry!

24 zombie  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:45:59pm

re: #2 Captain Amercia

Can we add you to the list that includes Midwest gak, brookly red, and opnion?

25 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:46:42pm

re: #13 itellu3times

Doesn't use up the same bandwidth as pr0n, but even so.

Yeah, but pr0n exhausts it's usefulness in a few minutes, so the bandwidth offset isn't that significant.
/

26 Captain Amercia  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:46:46pm

re: #24 zombie

Can we add you to the list that includes Midwest gak, brookly red, and opnion?

That depends. Do I have to give my phone number like when I buy batteries from Radio Shack?

27 jones  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:46:47pm

re: #18 zombie

(Obama will likely waltz in unopposed anyway, but at least this way we have a chance at putting together a coherent counter-strategy.)

Is that fair to quote yourself?

28 ArmyWife  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:46:54pm

I'd like Obama's policies to fail as well. I don't agree with Rush (or anyone for that matter) 100%, but I don't see him as the problem.

The conservatives need to wake up and smell the desperation, soon. This doesn't mean "move to the center" even is Meghan McCain says so (and seriously, who is pimping her right now? Please let it end!). It means discrediting those that surround themselves with racists, and getting back to our core values which include accepting those who are religious and those that aren't. It means embracing the Constitution without reading "nuance" into it. It isn't rocket science, so why is it so damn hard?

29 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:46:58pm

re: #18 zombie

(Obama will likely waltz in unopposed anyway, but at least this way we have a chance at putting together a coherent counter-strategy.)

I don't think so, Zombie. We'll knock him off his pearch in 2012, have faith.

30 swamprat  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:47:27pm

re: #4 Slumbering Behemoth

Ha! See, he was running for a third term. I just knew it!
///


They are still trying to defeat that wily fox!

31 jones  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:47:48pm

Anyway, I agree with Glenn Reynolds- lets be happy warriors. After 8 years of BDS, I have no use for ODS.

32 Afrocity  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:48:23pm

Divided we fall.

33 swamprat  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:48:31pm

re: #16 Seagreenroom

People are simply realizing what took place on 11/4/08. We now have an enemy of America sitting in the Oval Office.

That makes people a little crazy.

Never atribute to malice...

34 committed  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:48:36pm

I believe Rush Limbaugh's quote is taken to mean he hopes America fails. That is not what he meant at all.

35 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:48:38pm
36 jones  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:49:45pm

re: #35 buzzsawmonkey


and Zounds!

37 zombie  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:49:48pm

re: #26 Captain Amercia

That depends. Do I have to give my phone number like when I buy batteries from Radio Shack?

It's an exclusive club: LGFers who typed in their user names so hurriedly when registering that they misspelled!

(Midwest gak was meant to be Midwest gal, brookly red = brooklyn red, opnion = opinion, etc.)

Captain Amercia seems like a prime candidate!

38 Dar ul Harb  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:49:51pm

re: #31 jones

Anyway, I agree with Glenn Reynolds- lets be happy warriors. After 8 years of BDS, I have no use for ODS.

Embrace the suck.

39 swamprat  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:50:06pm

re: #16 Seagreenroom

You need to get back on the medication.

40 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:50:15pm

David T links to this article at the Guardian on CPAC, with a truly horrific image:

Stopping at a water cooler, I almost collided with the blogger Pam Atlas, who led the campaign to prove Obama had forged his birth certificate. She was delightedly hugging the author Jerome Corsi, whose book The Obama Nation, a hostile, error-filled attack on the Democratic candidate, had prompted a 40-page rebuttal from the Obama campaign.

He's talking about Pamela Geller, of course, and Jerome Corsi is the guy who appeared on "The Political Cesspool," a white supremacist radio show, several times.

41 Captain Amercia  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:50:25pm

re: #37 zombie

It's an exclusive club: LGFers who typed in their user names so hurriedly when registering that they misspelled!

(Midwest gak was meant to be Midwest gal, brookly red = brooklyn red, opnion = opinion, etc.)

Captain Amercia seems like a prime candidate!

Then yes, put me on the list. Lousy fast fingers! :)

42 Dustoff-507  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:50:25pm

Guys.... I haven't been here as of late, but, what in the heck is going on with Charles and everyone else?

43 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:50:33pm

There is a sports analogy to be made here.


when a formerly great sports team starts losing, sometimes it has to lose BIG in order to bottom out. management casts out the dead wood, trades whatever assets might bring value in return, and starts drafting new players that will hopefully mature and become winners. the Republican party is in the early stages of a similar process right now. In 2 years we will hopefully see some improvement and in 4 years it may be time to win the championship again.

But it all depends on wise management THAT HAS A GOOD PLAN.

44 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:50:49pm

I just want to be level-headed about it all. The idea of Charles being vilified for encouraging level-headedness is just ludicrous.

But who am I to judge.

45 Captain Amercia  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:51:01pm

re: #38 Dar ul Harb

Embrace the suck.

It is truly what Paris Hilton would do.

46 Jim in Virginia  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:51:06pm

re: #19 swamprat

Does this postion us in front of the pack? Did Charles just stage a coup by being true to himself a casting all asunder?

Sure is starting to look that way.


I don't speak for Charles but I doubt he has any ambition to head a political movement or run for office.
As it is he is becoming the leading spokesperson for anti idiotarians. Not a bad gig for a jazz musician.

47 GhostShip  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:51:21pm

Is LGF really a right wing blog? Other than the WoT, I can't recall any other right-wing issues such as the need for smaller government, lower taxes, etc being posted here.

I've heard Charles was left of center politically before 911 and as far as I know still is in general. I have no problem with that because I'll read LGF as long as there's something interesting to read on it. However, I don't think that sharing one issue in common makes a person or blog a right-wing one.

48 Jetpilot1101  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:51:48pm

re: #42 Dustoff-507

Guys.... I haven't been here as of late, but, what in the heck is going on with Charles and everyone else?

Please elaborate on that generalization.

49 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:52:00pm

re: #34 committed

Rush can say whatever he likes (within reason, of course), he does not hold any position within the GOP.

It's when GOP politicians begin parroting his easily misconstrued sound bites that it becomes a problem.

50 Mr. Paul  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:52:13pm

With the defeat of Bush

darn how did that no good get a run at a third term.

51 committed  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:52:21pm

I agree with some liberal ideas and some conservative ideas.

I'm a little bit country and a little bit rock n roll.

52 Jimash  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:52:27pm

re: #42 Dustoff-507

As long as I'm not the only one, I'll just stay here in the back seat and try to suss it all out.

53 pittrader1988  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:52:27pm

re: #2 Captain Amercia

I AGREE

54 itellu3times  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:52:28pm

re: #42 Dustoff-507

Guys.... I haven't been here as of late, but, what in the heck is going on with Charles and everyone else?

Everyone else is losing their heads, and blaming it on Charles.

55 Clutch  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:52:47pm

re: #22 Mithrax

Two wrongs don't make a right.

And two wrongs certainly don't make the right any stronger.

Yeah, but two Wrights make an airplane!

And three lefts make a right!

(That was a nice big bottle of Riesling that the wife and I killed off tonight... %-) ).

56 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:52:59pm

re: #42 Dustoff-507

The world is going nuts. Same old shit.

57 zombie  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:53:02pm

re: #41 Captain Amercia

Then yes, put me on the list. Lousy fast fingers! :)

You are already a legend in your own time!

58 Captain Amercia  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:53:03pm

re: #54 itellu3times

Everyone else is losing their heads, and blaming it on Charles.

'Splodey heads!

59 MandyManners  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:53:22pm

re: #37 zombie

It's an exclusive club: LGFers who typed in their user names so hurriedly when registering that they misspelled!

(Midwest gak was meant to be Midwest gal, brookly red = brooklyn red, opnion = opinion, etc.)

Captain Amercia seems like a prime candidate!

I know what you mean. I meant to type in "RudeCrudeDude" when I registered.

60 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:53:34pm

re: #42 Dustoff-507

Guys.... I haven't been here as of late, but, what in the heck is going on with Charles and everyone else?

Could you be more specific?

61 Captain Amercia  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:53:41pm

re: #57 zombie

You are already a legend in your own time!

And my high school guidance counselor said I'd never amount to anything.

62 itellu3times  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:54:33pm

re: #58 Captain Amercia

'Splodey heads!

It's kipling, and Charles is being kipled.

63 pink freud  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:55:05pm

re: #42 Dustoff-507

Guys.... I haven't been here as of late, but, what in the heck is going on with Charles and everyone else?

Charles and LGF have pulled ahead about a furlong in the ongoing race for level-headedness and sanity.

64 Dustoff-507  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:55:05pm

re: #48 Jetpilot1101

Well..BUD. I don't know. Other than the fact Charles is getting from both sides?
What's your answer?

65 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:55:15pm

re: #45 Captain Amercia

It is truly what Paris Hilton would do.

LMAO!

66 Captain Amercia  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:55:20pm

re: #62 itellu3times

It's kipling, and Charles is being kipled.

I'll be out back in the Rudyard.

67 Gus  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:55:21pm

re: #40 Charles

David T links to this article at the Guardian on CPAC, with a truly horrific image:

He's talking about Pamela Geller, of course, and Jerome Corsi is the guy who appeared on "The Political Cesspool," a white supremacist radio show, several times.

"When asked by a reporter for two example of great conservative thinkers CPAC responded by presenting two leaders in the movement: Pamela Geller and Jerome Corsi.

The crowd fell silent."

//

68 Dustoff-507  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:55:35pm

re: #54 itellu3times

OK.... weird?

69 Dar ul Harb  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:55:43pm

re: #45 Captain Amercia

Actually, its a military phrase meaning (roughly) "make the best of a bad situation."

70 Mithrax  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:55:45pm

re: #66 Captain Amercia

I'll be out back in the Rudyard.

Psssst. Check the previous thread :P

71 swamprat  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:56:09pm

re: #46 Jim in Virginia

I meant in terms of the way the meat world looks at conservative political blogs.

72 funky chicken  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:56:15pm

re: #16 Seagreenroom

People are simply realizing what took place on 11/4/08. We now have an enemy of America sitting in the Oval Office.

That makes people a little crazy.

I'll agree that the ones who are most crazy spent most of the fall of 2008 trashing the GOP candidate for president because he wasn't a "true conservative." Their behavior helped elect Obama, and they view Obama as an enemy of America.

I think it's a massive guilt response, or something similar.

I don't really get it, because the loudest screamers were quite wedded to their "it took Carter to get Reagan" philosophy last fall. They got their wish; John McCain lost. They should be happily promoting their Reagan Redux.

73 LGoPs  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:56:20pm

re: #37 zombie

It's an exclusive club: LGFers who typed in their user names so hurriedly when registering that they misspelled!

(Midwest gak was meant to be Midwest gal, brookly red = brooklyn red, opnion = opinion, etc.)

Captain Amercia seems like a prime candidate!

LOL...I never knew that. Shows you my powers of observation are pretty dull.....
Sheesh

74 Captain Amercia  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:56:35pm

re: #70 Mithrax

Psssst. Check the previous thread :P

Too late for the punny?

75 JacksonTn  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:56:46pm

This is why I will never put a letter after my name ever again ... when I would not jump on the Obama bandwagon my fellow democrats trashed me so bad ... I found that it was not what you have done for the party ... it was you better be with us no matter who we nominate ... not gonna happen ... never ever again ... I don't like either side eating their own ... makes me sick ... there is good on both sides of the aisle ... you just need to take a look at everyone individually ... but no person is perfect ... not one single person ...

It seems like both parties only want to "court" independents anyway ... isn't that what all the idiot talking heads always say ... they take the base for granted and go after the independents ...

76 Opinionated  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:56:49pm

This hasn't occurred just since the election. It occurred prior to the election too and the same phenomena may have contributed to the loss.

Take the vitriolic attacks on Giuliani prior to the first ballot in the first primary. The name calling- "baby killer" and more.

For better or worse- I think worse- McCain was constrained on who he could pick for VP.

We are told that a certain segment of Republicans are crucial for us to win, but that same segment scare away many Americans which makes us more vulnerable to lose.

77 pittrader1988  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:56:59pm

the beauty of obama's economic policies is that they are destined to fail. numbers don't lie, and keynesian economics never works in the long run.

78 Afrocity  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:57:01pm

re: #47 GhostShip

I was referred here by a person after looking for a conservative blog home. They told me good people were here who would foster ideas of self-reliance and commitment to less government. Now I know why this guy from Redstate told me that he would go someplace else if he were me but I like it here and I find the people here to be very balanced but center-right in m y opinion.

79 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:57:19pm

re: #54 itellu3times

Everyone else is losing their heads, and blaming it on Charles.

Well, then to borrow from a theme on the last thread:

If - Rudyard Kipling

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you
But make allowance for their doubting too,
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream--and not make dreams your master,
If you can think--and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it all on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!"

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings--nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much,
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And--which is more--you'll be a Man, my son!

80 zombie  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:57:23pm

You're the kind of person
You meet at certain tax revolt affairs.
Center of a crowd, talking much too loud
Running up and down the stairs.
Well, it seems to me that you have seen too much in too few years.
And though you've tried you just can't hide
Your eyes are edged with tears.

You better stop
Look around
Here it comes, here it comes, here it comes, here it comes...
Here comes your umpteenth right-wing breakdown.

81 Killian Bundy  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:57:43pm

re: #1 zombie

It's a meltdown, baby.

/it's going to have to sort itself out, Killgore already hopped off, but he was barely hanging on to begin with

82 mich-again  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:58:07pm

Lizard and Proud. Bring it on.

83 zombie  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:58:08pm

re: #27 jones

Is that fair to quote yourself?

Nope. Totally cheating.

84 ArmyWife  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:58:39pm

re: #72 funky chicken

The flaw there is we need a "Reagan" to flaunt. Thus far, no one has come within a 250 mile radius of who Reagan was. But I'm still hoping...

I voted for McCain, with my nose held. It was better than the alternative by a long shot. As normal, I was quite right in my assessment, but here we are anyway.

85 Mithrax  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:58:50pm

re: #78 Afrocity

I was referred here by a person after looking for a conservative blog home. They told me good people were here who would foster ideas of self-reliance and commitment to less government. Now I know why this guy from Redstate told me that he would go someplace else if he were me but I like it here and I find the people here to be very balanced but center-right in m y opinion.

Balanced? Us?

woobwoobwoobwoobwoob

86 Salamantis  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:58:53pm

re: #64 Dustoff-507

Well..BUD. I don't know. Other than the fact Charles is getting from both sides?
What's your answer?

When you try to drive down the sensible moderate center/middle of the road, both sets of extremists - the wingnuts and the moonbats - try to reduce you to roadkill. They share more in common with each other - emotion-driven extremism of different stripes - than they share with reasoned rationality.

87 Jim in Virginia  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:59:14pm

Woo Hoo! Either Old Line Texan or funky chicken pushed me over a sharmuta of karma!

88 LGoPs  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:59:19pm

re: #81 Killian Bundy

/it's going to have to sort itself out, Killgore already hopped off, but he was barely hanging on to begin with

Killgores gone?

89 Catttt  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:59:20pm

re: #45 Captain Amercia

It is truly what Paris Hilton would do.

Wants so badly to make Barney Frank joke here.

90 Neutral President  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:00:00pm

re: #61 Captain Amercia

And my high school guidance counselor said I'd never amount to anything.

"Seems like such a short time to destroy a world"

91 Clutch  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:00:01pm

re: #59 MandyManners

I know what you mean. I meant to type in "RudeCrudeDude" when I registered.

Oh, please no, you aren't a dude, please tell me that you are funnin'! You gotta be a female Lizard (former USMC, with tats, drinks whiskey straight, rides a Harley and so damn hot that you could get a Playboy centerfold deal no sweat) or you are gonna torpedo a whole flotilla of male Lizard fantasies quicker than the USN sank those four Japanese carriers at Midway...

92 Dr. Shalit  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:00:13pm

re: #2 Captain Amercia

Like Rush, I just want Obama's policies to fail.

Captain -

AND, like Rush - I prefer that The Republic succeeds.

-S-

93 NYCHardhat  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:00:25pm

re: #86 Salamantis

When you try to drive down the sensible moderate center/middle of the road, both sets of extremists - the wingnuts and the moonbats - try to reduce you to roadkill. They share more in common with each other - emotion-driven extremism of different stripes - than they share with reasoned rationality.

Wow. That was said perfectly.

94 pink freud  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:00:27pm

re: #86 Salamantis

When you try to drive down the sensible moderate center/middle of the road, both sets of extremists - the wingnuts and the moonbats - try to reduce you to roadkill. They share more in common with each other - emotion-driven extremism of different stripes - than they share with reasoned rationality.

The older I get the more I realize the ditches hold an allure to a larger part of the population than I ever thought possible.

95 jones  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:01:02pm

re: #83 zombie

I think it is dividing by zero's little nephew. It might lead to dancing.

96 Catttt  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:01:05pm

re: #91 Clutch

Oh, please no, you aren't a dude, please tell me that you are funnin'! You gotta be a female Lizard (former USMC, with tats, drinks whiskey straight, rides a Harley and so damn hot that you could get a Playboy centerfold deal no sweat) or you are gonna torpedo a whole flotilla of male Lizard fantasies quicker than the USN sank those four Japanese carriers at Midway...

If Mandy is a man, she is the most innocent adult man I've ever met - ever. Ever.

Ever.

97 Afrocity  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:01:14pm

re: #91 Clutch

LOL ROTF

98 Wendya  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:01:15pm

re: #12 Jetpilot1101

The GOP would do well to throw out all factions that want to introduce their brand of religion into the party. Let them start their own party. At least then it will be an all out war and not a civil war.

And while we're at it, we can throw out factions that vote for tax increases and higher spending levels.

That would have a hell of a lot more impact.

99 LGoPs  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:01:17pm

re: #37 zombie

It's an exclusive club: LGFers who typed in their user names so hurriedly when registering that they misspelled!

(Midwest gak was meant to be Midwest gal, brookly red = brooklyn red, opnion = opinion, etc.)

Captain Amercia seems like a prime candidate!

Hell....I meant to call myself A Legend in my Own Mind and it came out as LGoPs.......
//////

100 Dustoff-507  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:01:28pm

re: #86 Salamantis

WOW... OK..

EASE back people. I'm a long term prerson with LGF.

ALL I see right now is insults flying everywhere?

101 itellu3times  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:01:50pm

re: #79 Dark_Falcon

Fi - by a lizard

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are 'sploding theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when bloggers doubt you
But make a link back to their doubting, too,

Yours is the Net and everything that's in it,
And--which is more--you'll be a honco, hon!

102 zombie  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:01:57pm

re: #80 zombie

Here comes your umpteenth right-wing breakdown.

I typed that whole thing and then choked on the last word. Serves me right! That was intended to be:

Here comes your umpteenth right-wing meltdown.

103 swamprat  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:01:59pm

When I consider how my light is spent
Ere half my days in this dark world and wide,
And that one Talent which is death to hide
Lodged with me useless, though my soul more bent
To serve therewith my Maker, and present
My true account, lest He returning chide,
"Doth God exact day-labour, light denied?"
I fondly ask. But Patience, to prevent
That murmur, soon replies, "God doth not need
Either man's work or his own gifts. Who best
Bear his mild yoke, they serve him best. His state
Is kingly: thousands at his bidding speed,
And post o'er land and ocean without rest;
They also serve who only bloviate

104 Captain Amercia  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:02:04pm

re: #92 Dr. Shalit

Captain -

AND, like Rush - I prefer that The Republic succeeds.

-S-

As do I. C/A

105 doppelganglander  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:02:13pm

re: #67 Gus 802

"When asked by a reporter for two example of great conservative thinkers CPAC responded by presenting two leaders in the movement: Pamela Geller and Jerome Corsi.

The crowd fell silent."

//

And there you have the reason why my daughter stopped volunteering two years ago after 3 years of involvement.

106 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:02:14pm

re: #81 Killian Bundy

What happened with Killgore?
Gone (God, I hope not) or just gone for the night?

107 GhostShip  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:02:15pm

re: #78 Afrocity

I started reading the blog for its coverage on the WoT but I find it hard to think of LGF as a right-wing blog since it doesn't seem to focus on any other issues that deal with advancing the ideas of the right.

108 Jim in Virginia  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:02:38pm

re: #76 Opinionated

This hasn't occurred just since the election. It occurred prior to the election too and the same phenomena may have contributed to the loss.

Take the vitriolic attacks on Giuliani prior to the first ballot in the first primary. The name calling- "baby killer" and more.

.

Someone started a website around January 2008 with the sole purpose of accusing Huckabee of accomplishing his massive weight loss via gastric bypass surgery.

109 Killian Bundy  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:03:10pm

re: #88 LGoPs

Killgores gone?

/no, he just wishes he had voted for Obama as of a couple days ago, but he didn't vote, and he hates "Tea Parties", so why don't we kill ourselves

110 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:03:41pm

re: #100 Dustoff-507

ALL I see right now is insults flying everywhere?

Did you interpret Sal's post as insulting, or are you just saying that insults are flying in general?

111 Jetpilot1101  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:04:07pm

re: #100 Dustoff-507

WOW... OK..

EASE back people. I'm a long term prerson with LGF.

ALL I see right now is insults flying everywhere?

My previous question was not intended as an insult. There have been so many meltdowns here that I think our Lizard Sense is on high alert. When someone tosses out a question like "what is up with Charles?", I think a lot of us prepare for an impending meltdown. Again, no offense intended, just asking for a little clarification.

112 IslandLibertarian  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:04:15pm

re: #72 funky chicken

They should be happily promoting their Reagan Redux.

Who?

The closest I can think is Romney, and he has about as much chance as Mormon Missionaries going door to door in Greenwich Village trying to make converts.

113 Jimash  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:04:48pm

re: #112 IslandLibertarian

Romney was the guy.

114 Dr. Shalit  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:04:49pm

re: #84 ArmyWife

Army Wife -

As we wish for a "Reagan" - our opponents wished for a Roosevelt or a Kennedy. In Pres. Obama, they sorta, kinda got one. I will settle for that, as long as he/she can win.

-S-

115 LGoPs  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:04:56pm

re: #109 Killian Bundy

/no, he just wishes he had voted for Obama as of a couple days ago, but he didn't vote, and he hates "Tea Parties", so why don't we kill ourselves

Damn, I got my hopes up there for a minute.......
/

116 Gus  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:05:19pm

re: #105 doppelganglander

And there you have the reason why my daughter stopped volunteering two years ago after 3 years of involvement.

I can see that happening. There's a severe drought in younger voters and there doesn't seem to be any attempt to attract them. These two are examples of the side show nature we see too often.

117 MacGregor  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:05:30pm

Political evolution. The DNA is in place, we just don't know which traits are best suited to the next environmental phase. The unique thing about us is that we can/must choose which political traits to shed or embrace before an event. The environment will dictate which strands of political dna survive. It looks like this event is an asteroid hitting the political planet.

Charles, look what you've done!

118 funky chicken  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:05:36pm

re: #84 ArmyWife

Yeah, that was always a glaringly obvious flaw in their stupid plan. Ronald Reagan and Barry Goldwater are dead. The creepy thing about the "true conservative" crowd is their tendency to deify RWR and also to declare that he was their ideological twin, especially in terms of their extreme social/religious conservatism.

119 Dustoff-507  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:05:53pm

re: #110 Slumbering Behemoth

Not real sure bud.... I just came back and WOW.

Was I wrong?

120 Dar ul Harb  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:06:29pm

re: #107 GhostShip

I started reading the blog for its coverage on the WoT but I find it hard to think of LGF as a right-wing blog since it doesn't seem to focus on any other issues that deal with advancing the ideas of the right.

To paraphrase the famous tagline of National Review:

LGF stands athwart the political spectrum yelling "STOP!"

121 LGoPs  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:06:33pm

BBL. Have to go prepare some foodstuffs.

122 Jim in Virginia  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:06:38pm

re: #81 Killian Bundy Was Kilgore banned or did he quit?

123 committed  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:06:39pm

I believe the problem lies in that Charles is not an extremist and many right and left wing blogs are. Thereby he gets vilified by both sides.

124 Curt  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:06:53pm

re: #31 jones

Anyway, I agree with Glenn Reynolds- lets be happy warriors. After 8 years of BDS, I have no use for ODS.

Unless I missed something, the BDS basically was characterized with such explanations as "BUSH LIED!"

There is much I disagree with from The One, but I am willing to take each issue on, for instance, the handling of the rescue of Capt Phillips, the specific military programs he is planning to cut, a major cut back of DoD dollars. I will argue those on the merit.

To me, but maybe I don't get it, those are legitmate ways to protest the policies being put in place by the current administration.

It's not about just yelling "The One is a SOCIALIST!" I may say that, but I will provide what I consider are the pieces of evidence to support my commentary.

That's what I see separates the ODS from the "patriotic duty" to dissent...reasoned and respectfully stated dissent.

So, what's wrong with that view?

I do agree, just posting rabid attacks full of invectives, without some reasonable attempt to support the "conclusions" is, yes, ODS.

I don't see much of that around here. I do see people opposing things like increased taxation, destruction of Constitutional rights, with specifically stated reasons. Not ODS, just that 1st Amendment thing.

125 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:07:04pm

re: #119 Dustoff-507

It's cool. Everyone has been a bit touchy since I quit smoking.

126 Dustoff-507  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:07:26pm

re: #111 Jetpilot1101

As a pilot. WERE both.... I don't let little things get in my way..,... But looks like stuff is flying. Am i wrong?

127 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:07:29pm

re: #122 Jim in Virginia

Neither, from what I could tell.

128 LGoPs  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:07:33pm

re: #122 Jim in Virginia

Was Kilgore banned or did he quit?

see # 109

129 brookly red  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:07:58pm

re: #37 zombie

It's an exclusive club: LGFers who typed in their user names so hurriedly when registering that they misspelled!

(Midwest gak was meant to be Midwest gal, brookly red = brooklyn red, opnion = opinion, etc.)

Captain Amercia seems like a prime candidate!

I am getting used to Brookly, but I still walk with a bit of a limp.

130 Dustoff-507  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:08:03pm

re: #125 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Try drugs?>?>. LOL

131 Curt  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:08:28pm

re: #91 Clutch

Oh, please no, you aren't a dude, please tell me that you are funnin'! You gotta be a female Lizard (former USMC, with tats, drinks whiskey straight, rides a Harley and so damn hot that you could get a Playboy centerfold deal no sweat) or you are gonna torpedo a whole flotilla of male Lizard fantasies quicker than the USN sank those four Japanese carriers at Midway...

Yep...GO NAVY!

132 Killian Bundy  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:08:28pm

My point is if you don't like the GOP try and change it from within, There's always the alternative, always looking for more support, doing damage since 2006.

/or bitch about it, like I care, we deserve what we elect

133 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:08:46pm

I used to try to fight against the characterization that LGF was a "right wing" blog. Eventually, I gave up because it was pointless; I realized they were going to put me in that pigeonhole no matter what I wrote.

Now a lot of people seem to feel betrayed and angry because they made assumptions about my views on issues such as creationism, gay rights, abortion, etc. etc.

I tried to tell them, but they just didn't want to listen.

I can only be honest about my opinions. If that means I need to be excommunicated from the "right wing," I'm fine with that.

Because I never joined.

134 pink freud  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:09:14pm

re: #129 brookly red

I am getting used to Brookly, but I still walk with a bit of a limp.

n.

I've always wanted to give you one. :-)

135 Jetpilot1101  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:09:31pm

re: #126 Dustoff-507

As a pilot. WERE both.... I don't let little things get in my way..,... But looks like stuff is flying. Am i wrong?

Nope, I think myself and others may have misinterpreted your question. Charles has been taking a beating from both sides recently and meltdowns have been unusually common lately.

136 doppelganglander  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:09:35pm

re: #116 Gus 802

I can see that happening. There's a severe drought in younger voters and there doesn't seem to be any attempt to attract them. These two are examples of the side show nature we see too often.

And she's exactly the sort of bright, eager young conservative the GOP needs to attract. She's totally turned off by Ann Coulter and that ilk. She's got a lot of good ideas for bringing the party back into contention, but I'm pretty sure they won't listen to a recent college graduate, no matter how smart she is. Their loss.

137 Gus  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:09:57pm

re: #118 funky chicken

Yeah, that was always a glaringly obvious flaw in their stupid plan. Ronald Reagan and Barry Goldwater are dead. The creepy thing about the "true conservative" crowd is their tendency to deify RWR and also to declare that he was their ideological twin, especially in terms of their extreme social/religious conservatism.

That whole thing about "waiting for Reagan" is rather ridiculous at this point. Even from a personality stand point it's not likely we'll ever see the likes of Jimmy Stewart again. If he were to be in the public eye today I wouldn't be surprised if at some point he would have to apologize to Rush Limbaugh.

138 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:10:09pm

re: #133 Charles

Why ain't there a "sensible wing"?

139 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:10:43pm
140 Truck Monkey  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:10:56pm

re: #125 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

It's cool. Everyone has been a bit touchy since I quit smoking.

Congratulations! I have to quit as well..... and lose 70 pounds or so. I don't think they'll happen at the same time.

141 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:11:17pm

re: #119 Dustoff-507

Not real sure bud.... I just came back and WOW.

Was I wrong?

I am confused. That didn't address my question, so I have no way of knowing what you may or may not be wrong about.

142 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:11:20pm

re: #138 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Why ain't there a "sensible wing"?

I belong to the Chicken Wing

143 MacGregor  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:11:24pm

re: #133 Charles

Most honorable.

144 Jim in Virginia  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:11:46pm

re: #125 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Did you really quit? Good for you. I'll buy you dinner if we're ever in Richmond at the same time.

145 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:11:59pm

Sadly, our two party system is quite corrupt. We need something else to get the two parties out of office. as it is....the system inherently favors both of them

146 JacksonTn  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:12:23pm

re: #142 sattv4u2

I belong to the Chicken Wing

sattv4u2 ... good one satt ... and I must say the wings are the best part of a chicken ... imo ...

147 jaunte  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:12:42pm

re: #138 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Why ain't there a "sensible wing"?

It's the Little wing.

148 Salamantis  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:12:44pm

re: #138 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Why ain't there a "sensible wing"?

That's what we're striving to evolve into.

149 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:12:46pm

re: #138 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Why ain't there a "sensible wing"?

There's not a market for it. Crazy is in fashion right now, sanity is so 2004!

150 Gus  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:12:53pm

re: #136 doppelganglander

And she's exactly the sort of bright, eager young conservative the GOP needs to attract. She's totally turned off by Ann Coulter and that ilk. She's got a lot of good ideas for bringing the party back into contention, but I'm pretty sure they won't listen to a recent college graduate, no matter how smart she is. Their loss.

I don't believe in a Fox News conspiracy but I must admit that I've seen Fox News define the tone. A lot of it has become over the top shock jock style pontificating with sneering rebuttals. Talk radio also seems to define the tone as well as the "best selling" book circuit.

151 Dustoff-507  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:12:56pm

Charles...
I can only be honest about my opinions.
Ok.... I'm with you.. But ncould you please SPELL them all for all to see.

I know how I stand....

Sorry but a bit confused Charles.

152 Killian Bundy  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:13:12pm

re: #133 Charles

Because I never joined.

/thanks for at least holding your nose last election and voting

153 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:13:16pm

re: #144 Jim in Virginia

Did you really quit? Good for you. I'll buy you dinner if we're ever in Richmond at the same time.

0bama's pissed. I have already cost "the children" about $30.00.

154 Dustoff-507  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:13:21pm

re: #141 Slumbering Behemoth

Don't worry about it.

155 brookly red  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:13:41pm

re: #134 pink freud

n.

I've always wanted to give you one. :-)

thanks,
but in retrospect it has taught me to measure twice & cut once...

156 Fenway_Nation  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:14:05pm

re: #146 JacksonTn

Breasts and thighs are nice, too.

Of course, Barney Frank goes straight for the buns...

/*ducks*

157 funky chicken  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:14:25pm

re: #146 JacksonTn

sattv4u2 ... good one satt ... and I must say the wings are the best part of a chicken ... imo ...

You dirty bastard.

158 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:14:45pm

re: #148 Salamantis

That's what we're striving to evolve into.

You cannot evolve into sanity. Sanity must have been intelligently designed. Teach the controversy!

- Disco Institute

159 haakondahl  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:15:05pm

The only "positioning" done is that LGF stood its ground while much of the line collapsed.

160 funky chicken  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:15:15pm

Sea kittens are healthier than poultry anyway.

161 Promethea  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:15:18pm

Charles,

I love your blog, and appreciate your ability to withstand criticism. I may not always agree with you (though I usually do), but the strength of your blog is that you provide lots of links to the materials that interest you personally. Your commenters also provide many interesting links.

I could spend all day reading your links, your commenters, and your commenters' links......if I let myself.

Please keep doing what you've been doing, and never mind the people who can't handle someone whose opinions differ from theirs. That's the real problem. The melt-down types just can't handle differing opinions.

162 Truck Monkey  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:15:40pm

re: #156 Fenway_Nation

Breasts and thighs are nice, too.

Of course, Barney Frank goes straight for the buns...

/*ducks*

reminds me of the Hillary Clinton special at the Chicken Shack.
2 left wings
2 small breasts
and 2 extra large thighs

163 JacksonTn  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:15:41pm

re: #157 funky chicken

You dirty bastard.

FC ... what did I do ... just sayin ... wings are the best ... I just ate Popeyes ... yum ... I know greasy ... but it was good ...

164 GhostShip  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:15:52pm

re: #133 Charles

Thanks for the reply. I wasn't sure whether people were labeling you and your blog as right-wing because of your stance on the WoT or if you had declared yourself to have moved to the right politically.

165 ArmyWife  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:16:00pm

re: #118 funky chicken

Reagan was a social conservative, make no mistake about that. He was devoutly religious and invoked G-d frequently. He was (and still is) hated by the left - he was not for Gay marriage, he was anti-abortion, etc. What he didn't do was damn those who were not Christian to hell like our friend Pat Robertson, nor did he insist everyone be Christian.

166 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:16:01pm

re: #154 Dustoff-507

Okay. I'll go back to worrying about this ring of eyeballs growing out of my chest.
/

167 Dr. Shalit  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:16:12pm

re: #118 funky chicken

Yeah, that was always a glaringly obvious flaw in their stupid plan. Ronald Reagan and Barry Goldwater are dead. The creepy thing about the "true conservative" crowd is their tendency to deify RWR and also to declare that he was their ideological twin, especially in terms of their extreme social/religious conservatism.

funky chicken -

One thing that Pres. Reagan could do very well is to disagree without being disagreeable. Would that I would have that grace as completely.

-S-

168 haakondahl  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:17:00pm

re: #133 Charles

I used to try to fight against the characterization that LGF was a "right wing" blog. Eventually, I gave up because it was pointless; I realized they were going to put me in that pigeonhole no matter what I wrote.

Now a lot of people seem to feel betrayed and angry because they made assumptions about my views on issues such as creationism, gay rights, abortion, etc. etc.

I tried to tell them, but they just didn't want to listen.

I can only be honest about my opinions. If that means I need to be excommunicated from the "right wing," I'm fine with that.

Because I never joined.

Embrace the Huck.

169 Dar ul Harb  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:17:01pm

re: #133 Charles

There were certainly foreshadowings of this in the Terri Schiavo situation.

170 Dr. Shalit  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:17:16pm

re: #165 ArmyWife

Army Wife -

Think you will agree with my #167 below.

-S-

171 Promethea  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:17:24pm

Re my 161 . . .

Also, the whole concept of "right wing" and "left wing" is nonsense. It's too bad we even have to use them.

172 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:17:35pm

They are wrecking cars, trucks and buses on Mythbusters. It's a hoot!

173 doppelganglander  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:17:46pm

re: #150 Gus 802

I don't believe in a Fox News conspiracy but I must admit that I've seen Fox News define the tone. A lot of it has become over the top shock jock style pontificating with sneering rebuttals. Talk radio also seems to define the tone as well as the "best selling" book circuit.

I've been over Fox News since the election. They have definitely taken a turn for the sensational. It's been a gradual descent. First they hired Geraldo and I won't watch him at all. I gave up on the morning show about 2 years ago when they brought in that moron Gretchen who probably couldn't find her hometown on a map. Hannity's ego now requires its own floor in the News Corp. building. And Judge Napolitano calling Alex Jones "the great" is just the end. I am furious about the way they've co-opted the tea party movement, leaving it wide open to Pelosi's stupid astroturfing comments. They're just going to have to carry on round the clock coverage of missing little white girls without me.

174 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:17:56pm

It's nice to see that Harry's Place (my 2nd favourite blog) is aware of the American right's meltdown, and the fact that LGF is a voice of sanity in the midst of it.

175 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:18:07pm

re: #168 haakondahl

Embrace the Huck.

LOL!

176 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:18:16pm

re: #172 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

They are wrecking cars, trucks and buses on Mythbusters. It's a hoot!

I hope non of them are mine. !

177 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:19:10pm

re: #172 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

re: #176 sattv4u2

I hope non of them are mine. !

Although I wouldn't mind cashing the insurance check on the Saturn. I really don;t need it!

178 haakondahl  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:19:24pm

re: #145 Jewels (AKA Julian)

Sadly, our two party system is quite corrupt. We need something else to get the two parties out of office. as it is....the system inherently favors both of them

This is a little like blaming a V-twin because it runs poorly on peanut butter.

179 MJ  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:19:26pm

re: #47 GhostShip

Is LGF really a right wing blog? Other than the WoT, I can't recall any other right-wing issues such as the need for smaller government, lower taxes, etc being posted here.

I've heard Charles was left of center politically before 911 and as far as I know still is in general. I have no problem with that because I'll read LGF as long as there's something interesting to read on it. However, I don't think that sharing one issue in common makes a person or blog a right-wing one.

I've personally never considered LGF to be a "right-wing blog". I think that was one reason we used to have major fights around here- when some of the posters would not take the Republican Party line and dared to criticized George Bush. I've always thought of it as more as "Classically Liberal" - not Liberal in the sense that today's "progressives" are liberal, but in the sense that John Mill and John Locke, Benjamin Constant, and others ascribed to Liberalism. Personal freedom, limited government, rational debate, and a strong national defense.

180 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:20:43pm

I lean right. And I'm here. Therefore....Hence...Ergo...

181 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:20:53pm

re: #169 Dar ul Harb

As a mostly conservative, registered republican, I found what some republican ghouls were doing by exploiting that situation to be repugnant and deplorable.

182 dmandman  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:21:02pm

Here is an interesting article. It looks like Japan is going to put itself in harms way after a 60+ year absence. It looks they are having quite a debate about it too.

[Link: japantimes.co.jp...]

183 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:21:02pm

re: #172 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

They are wrecking cars, trucks and buses on Mythbusters. It's a hoot!

I hope non of those cars is a Studebaker. Avanti will scream bloody murder if they wreck one of those.

184 JacksonTn  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:21:37pm

re: #180 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I lean right. And I'm here. Therefore....Hence...Ergo...

FBV ... how long since you have had a cigarette ... and congrats on the attempt ... hope you stay with it ... I smoke if I am drinking or nervous ...

185 IslandLibertarian  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:21:48pm

re: #124 Curt
It's not about just yelling "The One is a SOCIALIST!" I may say that, but I will provide what I consider are the pieces of evidence to support my commentary.
"0" is a Socialist.
Gibson began by noting that Obama has indicated an intention to raise the capital gains tax rate, and reviewed recent history: the rate fell from 28% to 20% under Bill Clinton in 1997 and fell further to 15% under George W. Bush. Then he said, "And in each instance, when the rate dropped, revenues from the tax increased. The government took in more money. And in the 1980s, when the tax was increased to 28 percent, the revenues went down. So why raise it at all, especially given the fact that 100 million people in this country own stock and would be affected?"
After a brief hesitation, Obama began his response as follows: "Well, Charlie, what I've said is that I would look at raising the capital gains tax for purposes of fairness. We saw an article today which showed that the top 50 hedge fund managers made $29 billion last year -- $29 billion for 50 individuals. And part of what has happened is that those who are able to work the stock market and amass huge fortunes on capital gains are paying a lower tax rate than their secretaries. That's not fair."

186 Dar ul Harb  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:21:55pm

re: #172 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

They are wrecking cars, trucks and buses on Mythbusters. It's a hoot!

The ultimate test of the "Compact Compact" is one of the most amazing bits of high-speed photography you'll ever see... and the reaction shot of the Mythbusters is classic.

187 Gus  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:22:01pm

re: #173 doppelganglander

I've been over Fox News since the election. They have definitely taken a turn for the sensational. It's been a gradual descent. First they hired Geraldo and I won't watch him at all. I gave up on the morning show about 2 years ago when they brought in that moron Gretchen who probably couldn't find her hometown on a map. Hannity's ego now requires its own floor in the News Corp. building. And Judge Napolitano calling Alex Jones "the great" is just the end. I am furious about the way they've co-opted the tea party movement, leaving it wide open to Pelosi's stupid astroturfing comments. They're just going to have to carry on round the clock coverage of missing little white girls without me.

At first I could never figure out what Judge Napolitan was talking about because I usually caught him on Red Eye. My first reaction was negative and after hearing him call Alex Jones "great" I knew he finally did a high jump over the shark. The others on Fox always had this mean spirited tone that I never found interesting. Brit Hume was respectable and interesting and Cavuto still holds my interest but we'll see how he evolves during the ever increasing alarmist tone at Fox News.

188 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:22:01pm

re: #180 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I lean right. And I'm here. Therefore....Hence...Ergo...

re: #180 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I lean right. And I'm here. Therefore....Hence...Ergo...

Put a thick peice of bologna in your right shoe to lift that side up and even yourself off! .

189 Killian Bundy  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:22:08pm

The political pendulum has swung way left. Can the GOP swing it back? Maybe not given the ongoing Bonkey efforts to increase their voting base through unearned tax credits, immigration amnesty, and census redistricting.

/get used to what Obama/Pelosi are cooking because we're going to get a lot more of it

190 ArmyWife  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:22:21pm

re: #167 Dr. Shalit

What is missing from our party is a level of reasonableness, not "centerness". I am vehemently opposed to abortion except in the most extreme of circumstances, I am anti-Gay "rights" though I could care less what 2 consenting adults do in their bedroom, I have no issue with a Christmas tree in a school lobby, nor to I think the 10 commandments on the wall of a courtroom should be repulsive to anyone. I don't care if you believe in creationism, but please, respect me equally well to support my belief in evolution. I can't support anything racist, our Constitution is quite clear that we are all created equally for a reason - we are all created equally. Most of all, stop SPENDING.

Again, it shouldn't be so hard, it really isn't.

191 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:23:02pm

re: #184 JacksonTn

Three weeks now. Not a problem.

Really. I don't miss it.

Seriously.

No, really.

Don't even think about smoking anymore.

Nope. Not me.

192 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:23:08pm

Sometimes I just want a passport to another world

193 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:23:33pm

re: #189 Killian Bundy

The political pendulum has swung way left. Can the GOP swing it back? Maybe not given the ongoing Bonkey efforts to increase their voting base through unearned tax credits, immigration amnesty, and census redistricting.

/get used to what Obama/Pelosi are cooking because we're going to get a lot more of it


30 million votes just sitting and waiting to be "legalized"

194 Dar ul Harb  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:23:39pm

re: #186 Dar ul Harb

*Spoiler alert, naturally*

195 NYCHardhat  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:24:11pm

re: #189 Killian Bundy

The political pendulum has swung way left. Can the GOP swing it back? Maybe not given the ongoing Bonkey efforts to increase their voting base through unearned tax credits, immigration amnesty, and census redistricting.

/get used to what Obama/Pelosi are cooking because we're going to get a lot more of it

Hence, the "meltdown" of the American Right Wing.

196 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:24:35pm

re: #191 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Three weeks now. Not a problem.

Really. I don't miss it.

Seriously.

No, really.

Don't even think about smoking anymore.

Nope. Not me.

Did you quit cold turkey? Thats how I did it 25+ years ago. It gets easier after the 1st 20-21 years !

197 funky chicken  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:24:37pm

re: #163 JacksonTn

FC ... what did I do ... just sayin ... wings are the best ... I just ate Popeyes ... yum ... I know greasy ... but it was good ...

I'm a chicken, silly. :-)

198 haakondahl  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:24:46pm

re: #190 ArmyWife

What is missing from our party is a level of reasonableness, not "centerness". I am vehemently opposed to abortion except in the most extreme of circumstances, I am anti-Gay "rights" though I could care less what 2 consenting adults do in their bedroom, I have no issue with a Christmas tree in a school lobby, nor to I think the 10 commandments on the wall of a courtroom should be repulsive to anyone. I don't care if you believe in creationism, but please, respect me equally well to support my belief in evolution. I can't support anything racist, our Constitution is quite clear that we are all created equally for a reason - we are all created equally. Most of all, stop SPENDING.

Again, it shouldn't be so hard, it really isn't.

Good Heavens. I think that I am actually you, in drag.

199 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:24:59pm

David T - (David Toube) of Harry's Place has a broadly similar list of enemies to Charles.

People who hate me

As far as I know he hasn't pissed off Robert Spencer yet, but I think that's just a matter of time.

200 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:25:00pm

re: #186 Dar ul Harb

Oh, that's what they're just about to do! Gonna watch it on my 60" hi def screen! Woo hoo!

201 JacksonTn  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:25:15pm

re: #193 sattv4u2

30 million votes just sitting and waiting to be "legalized"

sattv4u2 ... you are so right about that ... I have said before ... that is going to be the "big grab" for the democrats ... the Obama presidency was just the first step ... they will take the illegals and give them the vote and they will expect in return for them to vote democrat for generations ... the same thing that Roosevelt did to my parents generation of democrats ... and it lasted until my generation ...

202 avanti  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:25:22pm

re: #183 Dark_Falcon

I hope non of those cars is a Studebaker. Avanti will scream bloody murder if they wreck one of those.

I've had to shoot about a dozen Avanti's in the head of the years. With the fiberglass body, frame rust becomes a issue. If I fine one that needs a frame and the rest, I could spent 40K fixing up a 30K car.

203 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:25:22pm

re: #182 dmandman

Here is an interesting article. It looks like Japan is going to put itself in harms way after a 60+ year absence. It looks they are having quite a debate about it too.

[Link: japantimes.co.jp...]

I'm glad for the help. It needs to be taken further though; pirate speedboats must be destroyed. End piracy by killing pirates. Speedboat like the one pictured are not fishing boats.

204 mich-again  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:25:27pm

The Two-Party system rewards candidates and parties that pull their support from the center. The Multi-Party system is more about pulling from the edges.

If the fringe groups think the GOP will have a better chance at regaining majority status by shunning moderates they are nuttier than I thought they were.

205 snowcrash  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:25:30pm

Anyone watching the exploding whale on Natnl Geographic channel? Disgusting but fascinating.........is there a word for that? Anyway, because I haven't been at LGF from the early days, it comes as no surprise about Charles political leanings. The thread topics tell the story as does the anti-idiotarian label.

206 FrogMarch  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:25:33pm
"With the defeat of Bush,"

McCain lost, not Bush. What an idiot.


economic liberals.

Show me one.

207 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:25:34pm

re: #196 sattv4u2

On my way home from Atlanta.

208 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:25:37pm

re: #133 Charles

I used to try to fight against the characterization that LGF was a "right wing" blog. Eventually, I gave up because it was pointless; I realized they were going to put me in that pigeonhole no matter what I wrote.

Now a lot of people seem to feel betrayed and angry because they made assumptions about my views on issues such as creationism, gay rights, abortion, etc. etc.

I tried to tell them, but they just didn't want to listen.

I can only be honest about my opinions. If that means I need to be excommunicated from the "right wing," I'm fine with that.

Because I never joined.

Just some thoughts, triggered by that comment of yours:

This is the only blog I've ever even thought about "joining in on".

Reflecting upon my decision to watch for a chance to register, I'm here because of that honesty in your opinions, and because I perceive your beliefs as lining up with honor, personal accountability, reason, et cetera.

In other words, I'm not here because of dogma.

In other words, I'm here because of who you are, and hence, because of the people (my fellow Lizards) whom people like you attract.

You may not be "right wing", but in my considered opinion, you are in the right wing.

209 doppelganglander  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:25:54pm

re: #187 Gus 802

At first I could never figure out what Judge Napolitan was talking about because I usually caught him on Red Eye. My first reaction was negative and after hearing him call Alex Jones "great" I knew he finally did a high jump over the shark. The others on Fox always had this mean spirited tone that I never found interesting. Brit Hume was respectable and interesting and Cavuto still holds my interest but we'll see how he evolves during the ever increasing alarmist tone at Fox News.

You name the two personalities, plus Megyn Kelly, that I can stand. And I will still occasionally watch the all-stars just for Krauthammer. I could imagine Cavuto giving up his 4 p.m. show and concentrating on Fox Business.

210 JacksonTn  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:26:00pm

re: #197 funky chicken

I'm a chicken, silly. :-)

FC ...omg ... I am so sorry ... okay ... I only ate your bad cousins ... tonight ...

211 funky chicken  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:27:18pm

Well, time to take little chicken to sports practice. See you all later.

212 Bloodnok  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:27:34pm

re: #208 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Just some thoughts, triggered by that comment of yours:

This is the only blog I've ever even thought about "joining in on".

Reflecting upon my decision to watch for a chance to register, I'm here because of that honesty in your opinions, and because I perceive your beliefs as lining up with honor, personal accountability, reason, et cetera.

In other words, I'm not here because of dogma.

In other words, I'm here because of who you are, and hence, because of the people (my fellow Lizards) whom people like you attract.

You may not be "right wing", but in my considered opinion, you are in the right wing.

Me too.

(Thanks for saving me from having to write something similar)

213 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:27:36pm

re: #207 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

On my way home from Atlanta.

See what NOT meeting me did for you !?!?!?!

214 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:27:46pm

Rumours of my demise are greatly exaggerated. I'm just not very interested in debating the merits of Ron Paul's economic policy. If I was interested in that I'd post over at the Ron Paul forums or stormfront.

215 nyc redneck  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:27:48pm

i want a potus i can trust to follow the constitution and protect this county.
one who doesn't galavant around the world sucking up to dictators and thugs, while putting america down. one who must not be forced to wear a flag lapel pin.
i want smaller gov't and less gov't intrusion in my life.
i want to keep more of the money i earn.
i want a strong military and a potus who will use it, if need be.
i want to break the gov't monopoly on public education of our children.

i think those are my main requirements.
it doesn't look like such a hard bill to fill.

216 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:27:57pm

re: #202 avanti

I've had to shoot about a dozen Avanti's in the head of the years. With the fiberglass body, frame rust becomes a issue. If I fine one that needs a frame and the rest, I could spent 40K fixing up a 30K car.

That indicates you have a good grasp of financial reality. How does a fiberglass body effect frame rust?

217 doppelganglander  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:28:24pm

re: #213 sattv4u2

See what NOT meeting me did for you !?!?!?!

By that standard, I guess I can claim credit, too. I thought you guys had lunch.

218 Promethea  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:28:39pm

re: #44 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I just want to be level-headed about it all. The idea of Charles being vilified for encouraging level-headedness is just ludicrous.

But who am I to judge.

So, maybe we need a third party called the Level-headed Party. What else unites us except common sense and love for the United States?

219 funky chicken  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:28:43pm

re: #210 JacksonTn

FC ...omg ... I am so sorry ... okay ... I only ate your bad cousins ... tonight ...

those damned capons LOL

220 SasquatchOnSteroids  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:28:50pm

re: #211 funky chicken

Well, time to take little chicken to sports practice. See you all later.

Have fun

221 NYCHardhat  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:28:54pm

re: #214 Killgore Trout

Rumours of my demise are greatly exaggerated. I'm just not very interested in debating the merits of Ron Paul's economic policy. If I was interested in that I'd post over at the Ron Paul forums or stormfront.

you still wish you voted for Obama?

222 Gus  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:29:11pm

re: #209 doppelganglander

You name the two personalities, plus Megyn Kelly, that I can stand. And I will still occasionally watch the all-stars just for Krauthammer. I could imagine Cavuto giving up his 4 p.m. show and concentrating on Fox Business.

Cavuto does his "op eds" with a certain poetic style -- something about his timing. And he usually makes great points centering on three issues that I think are primary: spending, taxes, and regulation.

223 Salamantis  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:29:18pm

Here are my political positions:

No creationism/ID in public schools - period.

Gay civil unions, with the same rights and privileges as marriage, without the label.

Abortion allowed in the first trimester, allowed in cases of rape or incest until fetal viability (halfway through the second trimester), only allowed afterwards in cases of genuine danger to the woman's life or physical health (danger of brain damage, paralysis, etc.).

A balanced budget amendment that can only be overridden with the votes of 2/3 of both houses of Congress, 2/3 of the state governors, and a Presidential signature.

An effective border fence to prevent illegal immigration, coupled with sanctions against employers of illegal aliens. One offense - you get heavily fined and any people directly and knowingly involved face felony trials; a second offense, with proof that you knew what you were doing - more felony trials, and forced dissolution of the business.

A foreign policy of relentlessly fighting global jihadism and spreading constitutional democracy - by political, diplomatic and economic means where possible and sufficient, by military force if possible and necessary.

Flame away!

224 ArmyWife  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:29:29pm

re: #198 haakondahl

I'm fine with that, too! ;)

225 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:29:31pm

Another point: I haven't changed my position against Islamic fascism one bit. I still believe it's a threat to Western civilization, profoundly anti-democratic, and needs to be fought.

However, I have learned (to my dismay) that many of the people who portray themselves as "anti-jihad" are simply paranoid bigots, and/or religious fanatics with hidden motives, who have hitched a ride on the justifiable outrage most of us felt after the 9/11 attacks.

My objections to radical Islam are based on my commitment to classical liberalism, and the values of the Enlightenment.

And my love for the music of Frank Zappa.

226 doppelganglander  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:29:40pm

re: #222 Gus 802

Cavuto does his "op eds" with a certain poetic style -- something about his timing. And he usually makes great points centering on three issues that I think are primary: spending, taxes, and regulation.

He's a smart and classy guy, which is why I'm not sure there's going to be room for him on Fox in coming years.

227 Dar ul Harb  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:29:42pm

re: #205 snowcrash

Anyone watching the exploding whale on Natnl Geographic channel?

Is that the legendary attempt to vaporize a beached whale carcass that just resulted in blubber shrapnel flying everywhere (even towards the camera)?

228 Miss Molly  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:29:42pm

Everytime one party loses the White House there is usually a shakeout and re-organization. I hope the Republicans have a true shakeout so they can get back to some firm common sense principles and find themselves again and ideas that the public will follow. New leadership is truely needed but it may take awhile to rise to the top. In the meantime people need to focus on the 2010 elections and getting a new Congress or at the very least taking down the Dems numbers. Nancy Pelosi is talking about a "windfall tax" on all retirement funds every year. I hope that will get people's attention.

229 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:30:01pm

re: #204 mich-again

If the fringe groups think the GOP will have a better chance at regaining majority status by shunning moderates they are nuttier than I thought they were.


Things are still in flux right now but there's a strong pull towards the John Birch side. I wouldn't say it's all over but it looks like that's where things are headed.

230 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:30:10pm

re: #214 Killgore Trout

Rumours of my demise are greatly exaggerated. I'm just not very interested in debating the merits of Ron Paul's economic policy. If I was interested in that I'd post over at the Ron Paul forums or stormfront.

Cept that it wasn't 'Pauls policy" that was being debated,,,, but nice try

"JOHNNY ,,, what do we have as parting gifts"

"well ,,, 1st we have the home version of Whats My Mistake,,,,, and we have a nice selection of cheese! "

231 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:30:29pm

re: #217 doppelganglander

By that standard, I guess I can claim credit, too. I thought you guys had lunch.

we did ,, just not at the same place and time!

232 MacGregor  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:30:35pm

re: #189 Killian Bundy

We're in the wake of a flying pendulum and I agree it's so far left, it's embedded in the side of the clock.

233 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:30:52pm

re: #208 pre-Boomer Marine brat

This is the only blog I've ever even thought about "joining in on".

Same here, and mega-dittos to the rest of your post.

234 Dr. Shalit  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:31:30pm

re: #185 IslandLibertarian

It's not about just yelling "The One is a SOCIALIST!" I may say that, but I will provide what I consider are the pieces of evidence to support my commentary.
"0" is a Socialist.
Gibson began by noting that Obama has indicated an intention to raise the capital gains tax rate, and reviewed recent history: the rate fell from 28% to 20% under Bill Clinton in 1997 and fell further to 15% under George W. Bush. Then he said, "And in each instance, when the rate dropped, revenues from the tax increased. The government took in more money. And in the 1980s, when the tax was increased to 28 percent, the revenues went down. So why raise it at all, especially given the fact that 100 million people in this country own stock and would be affected?"
After a brief hesitation, Obama began his response as follows: "Well, Charlie, what I've said is that I would look at raising the capital gains tax for purposes of fairness. We saw an article today which showed that the top 50 hedge fund managers made $29 billion last year -- $29 billion for 50 individuals. And part of what has happened is that those who are able to work the stock market and amass huge fortunes on capital gains are paying a lower tax rate than their secretaries. That's not fair."

Libertarian -

OK, "wanna" make it fair. When/If you raise the rate on Capital Gains, lower that on "Ordinary" Income. If you can't/won't do that, there is No Further Discussion.

S-

235 snowcrash  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:32:20pm

re: #227 Dar ul Harb
No, a whale being transported through the streets of Taiwan spontaneously exploded on its way to a research lab. lol gross

236 wiffersnapper  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:32:23pm

It's really not that hard to understand what the US Right wants. No McCain, no Huckabee, no Ron Paul, tons of common sense and personal responsibility. Am I missing something here?

237 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:32:32pm

re: #223 Salamantis

Here are my political positions:

No creationism/ID in public schools - period.

Gay civil unions, with the same rights and privileges as marriage, without the label.

Abortion allowed in the first trimester, allowed in cases of rape or incest until fetal viability (halfway through the second trimester), only allowed afterwards in cases of genuine danger to the woman's life or physical health (danger of brain damage, paralysis, etc.).

A balanced budget amendment that can only be overridden with the votes of 2/3 of both houses of Congress, 2/3 of the state governors, and a Presidential signature.

An effective border fence to prevent illegal immigration, coupled with sanctions against employers of illegal aliens. One offense - you get heavily fined and any people directly and knowingly involved face felony trials; a second offense, with proof that you knew what you were doing - more felony trials, and forced dissolution of the business.

A foreign policy of relentlessly fighting global jihadism and spreading constitutional democracy - by political, diplomatic and economic means where possible and sufficient, by military force if possible and necessary.

Flame away!

Warning to any would be flamers: Flaming Salamantis will result in devastating broadsides of wit and logic. Other side effects include loss of karma and respect.

238 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:32:36pm

re: #214 Killgore Trout

Merits?
/

239 ArmyWife  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:32:49pm

re: #235 snowcrash

oopsie!

240 jaunte  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:32:57pm

re: #223 Salamantis

I like your platform; something to explode heads on both sides.

241 doppelganglander  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:33:12pm

re: #223 Salamantis

I'm actually okay with most of those. I would probably restrict abortion a bit more -- waiting periods, informed consent, and parental consent for minors. I am not convinced that the balanced budget amendment is necessary or workable, but then again I haven't really studied the matter. Other than that, I think it's a pretty good list.

242 rhino2  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:33:25pm

re: #51 committed

I agree with some liberal ideas and some conservative ideas.

I'm a little bit country and a little bit rock n roll.

You're Garth Brooks?

243 Wendya  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:33:42pm

re: #112 IslandLibertarian

They should be happily promoting their Reagan Redux.

Who?

The closest I can think is Romney,

His health care "reform" plan stunk. There was nothing even remotely conservative about it.

244 Afrocity  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:33:45pm

OT- Has anyone see Furry Old Jeans Guy?
I have not seen him in awhile. I am worried. It is not like him to be gone for so long.

245 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:34:03pm

re: #242 rhino2

You're Garth Brooks?

I thought that was Donnie and Marie Osmond!?!

246 haakondahl  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:34:32pm

re: #242 rhino2

You're Garth Brooks?

He's Donny and Marie?

247 Jimash  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:34:46pm

re: #223 Salamantis


Count me in . That is about the right mix .

248 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:34:55pm

re: #218 Promethea

So, maybe we need a third party called the Level-headed Party. What else unites us except common sense and love for the United States?

Once upon a time, that used to be the GOP. I am more in favor of righting the course rather than jumping ship, though.

249 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:34:56pm

re: #244 Afrocity

OT- Has anyone see Furry Old Jeans Guy?
I have not seen him in awhile. I am worried. It is not like him to be gone for so long.

He was in a few days ago. He's doing OK.

250 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:34:57pm

re: #221 NYCHardhat

you still wish you voted for Obama?


Reluctantly, yes. I'm guessing that most of the craziness we're seeing is an instinctive reaction from Republicans to being impotent and out of power. The conspiracy theories, paranoia and the mainstreaming of Ron Paul and Alex Jones is a serious problem. Republicans and conservatives are confused and goofy these days. I have many disagreements with Obama but it looks like he's at least making a serious effort to repair the economy. I can't say that for the Republicans. I just don't see it.

251 doppelganglander  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:34:58pm

re: #231 sattv4u2

we did ,, just not at the same place and time!

That really did make me LOL!

252 ArmyWife  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:35:07pm

I'm going to go read and attempt to get more than 4 hours of sleep (not holding my breath). I'll see y'all tomorrow.

PS - Dweezil Zappa was hot back in the day

253 avanti  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:35:16pm

re: #216 Dark_Falcon

That indicates you have a good grasp of financial reality. How does a fiberglass body effect frame rust?

Same with Corvette, it's all about electrolysis, all the corrosion takes place in the frame and the electrolysis effect is amplified without a steel body .

254 razorbacker  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:35:20pm

Apropos of nothing at all:

My old buddy Bill called me this afternoon. He said that his new neighbor's jackass was braying in the pasture, and he got to missing me something fierce.

And that after I'd saved his life. Well, it will be just too bad for Bill when next he passes out facedown in the wading pool.

255 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:35:52pm

re: #40 Charles

David T links to this article at the Guardian on CPAC, with a truly horrific image:

He's talking about Pamela Geller, of course, and Jerome Corsi is the guy who appeared on "The Political Cesspool," a white supremacist radio show, several times.

Anyone who relies entirely on the MSM for their information, thinks Pam Geller represents the "Conservative" blogs, and "J Street" is pro-Israel.

I'm going to vomit now, I can't hold it in my mouth any longer.

256 Clutch  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:35:54pm

re: #173 doppelganglander

I've been over Fox News since the election. They have definitely taken a turn for the sensational. It's been a gradual descent. First they hired Geraldo and I won't watch him at all. I gave up on the morning show about 2 years ago when they brought in that moron Gretchen who probably couldn't find her hometown on a map. Hannity's ego now requires its own floor in the News Corp. building. And Judge Napolitano calling Alex Jones "the great" is just the end. I am furious about the way they've co-opted the tea party movement, leaving it wide open to Pelosi's stupid astroturfing comments. They're just going to have to carry on round the clock coverage of missing little white girls without me.

Roger that. Fox News is getting just a tad (/s) shrill. When Jerry Riveria, err, Geraldo starts bloviating that the gub'ner o' Tejas is talking treason when he vaguely hints at secession, I start throwing things (soft things, I'm not that stoopid) at the screen.
Outrageous? Yes.
Controversial? Yes.
Over the top? Hell yes!
Treasonous? Hell NO! It ain't gonna be the Civil War all over again, you f*cking schmuck, Jerry! You want treason, go back and listen to the s#it that came pouring forth in tidal-wave magnitudes from the left from 2002 on. There, GERRY, you will find REAL treason. You f*cking ignorant @ss. You need to get a job that you are qualified to do, cleaning the grease traps out at the local Mickey-Dees...

Geraldo sucks...

(And I'm sorry, but the missing little white girls angle that Fox runs with is NOT national news! Local interest, yes. Tragic, yes. But as sad as the stories are, they are of no meaning to the world beyond the families involved. Just more People magazine-ing of the world, which only work to dumb it down. And I am the proud dad of a little white girl as case in point,).

257 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:36:20pm
258 jorline  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:36:40pm

re: #86 Salamantis

When you try to drive down the sensible moderate center/middle of the road, both sets of extremists - the wingnuts and the moonbats - try to reduce you to roadkill. They share more in common with each other - emotion-driven extremism of different stripes - than they share with reasoned rationality.

Well put Sal...ding!

259 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:36:41pm

re: #253 avanti

Same with Corvette, it's all about electrolysis, all the corrosion takes place in the frame and the electrolysis effect is amplified without a steel body .

The fiberglass body was used to reduce weight, correct? Both of those cars are built for speed.

260 Seagreenroom  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:36:42pm

re: #39 swamprat

You need to get back on the medication.

Blue pill? Red pill? Pick yer poison.

261 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:36:53pm

re: #252 ArmyWife

I'm going to go read and attempt to get more than 4 hours of sleep (not holding my breath). I'll see y'all tomorrow.

PS - Dweezil Zappa was hot back in the day

Welll ,, THERES your problem! How the hell can you sleep while holding your breath! You would wake up every few moments gasping for air! Breath NORMALLY and you'll sleep okay !

262 Killian Bundy  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:37:13pm

re: #237 Dark_Falcon

Warning to any would be flamers: Flaming Salamantis will result in devastating broadsides of wit and logic. Other side effects include loss of karma and respect.

Well, he'll certainly end up getting the last word.

/but I agree, he's dead on concerning those issues

263 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:37:42pm

I saw on the Paulian economics thread that CADublin-dude passed away. Very sorry to hear that. He was a good egg.

264 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:37:51pm

re: #225 Charles

Another point: I haven't changed my position against Islamic fascism one bit. I still believe it's a threat to Western civilization, profoundly anti-democratic, and needs to be fought.

However, I have learned (to my dismay) that many of the people who portray themselves as "anti-jihad" are simply paranoid bigots, and/or religious fanatics with hidden motives, who have hitched a ride on the justifiable outrage most of us felt after the 9/11 attacks.

My objections to radical Islam are based on my commitment to classical liberalism, and the values of the Enlightenment.

And my love for the music of Frank Zappa.

I'll drink to that. Cheers!

265 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:37:51pm

re: #252 ArmyWife

I'm going to go read and attempt to get more than 4 hours of sleep (not holding my breath). I'll see y'all tomorrow.

PS - Dweezil Zappa was hot back in the day

Here's some Dweezil playing guitar for ya!

266 swamprat  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:37:53pm

re: #214 Killgore Trout

Rumours of my demise are greatly exaggerated. I'm just not very interested in debating the merits of Ron Paul's economic policy. If I was interested in that I'd post over at the Ron Paul forums or stormfront.

"I heard you were dead!"

I get that alot. Got a cigarette?

/ Escape from New York

267 doppelganglander  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:37:54pm

re: #256 Clutch

I think Rick Perry is an idiot, but it's pretty laughable when the guy who got tossed out of Iraq for revealing troop movements screams treason at someone who's merely quoting the 10th amendment.

268 Dar ul Harb  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:38:00pm

re: #235 snowcrash

Wow.

Curiously enough, the only thing that went through the mind of the bowl of petunias as it fell was Oh no, not again. Many people have speculated that if we knew exactly why the bowl of petunias had thought that we would know a lot more about the nature of the universe than we do now.


--Douglas Adams, The Hitchiker's Guide To The Galaxy

269 IslandLibertarian  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:38:08pm

re: #225 Charles

And my love for the music of Frank Zappa.

..."his wife's attending an orchid show........
...she screamed for a week to get him to go......
.....back in the bedroom his teenage queen..........
....is rockin' and rollin' and acting obscene".........

/not all gems.........

270 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:38:46pm

re: #255 Alouette

Anyone who relies entirely on the MSM for their information, thinks Pam Geller represents the "Conservative" blogs, and "J Street" is pro-Israel.

I'm going to vomit now, I can't hold it in my mouth any longer.

Sucks, doesn't it? But that's the inevitable consequence of legitimizing people like Geller and Corsi, instead of rejecting them.

271 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:38:54pm

re: #254 razorbacker

Apropos of nothing at all:

My old buddy Bill called me this afternoon. He said that his new neighbor's jackass was braying in the pasture, and he got to missing me something fierce.

And that after I'd saved his life. Well, it will be just too bad for Bill when next he passes out facedown in the wading pool.

His neighbor brought home a Democrat? :D

272 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:39:21pm

re: #225 Charles

Up-ding for that ... (but to continue) ...

And my love for the music of Frank Zappa.

I must admit that this gray-headed old fart is here IN SPITE OF THAT !

/ *grin* ... I'm teasing both you and myself

273 ArmyWife  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:39:29pm

re: #250 Killgore Trout

repair the economy? Seriously? Have you seen the effects? I think you've posted where you have felt them.

I am very, very afraid of Obama's economic fixes. Even without Mr. ArmyWife I make 6 figures - I don't say that to brag, I worked really hard to be there. I say it because President Obama would like to tax me into oblivion and thus far, he's on the way to succeeding. President Obama would like me to "share" my earnings because when you add Mr. ArmyWife into the mix, I get very close to his definition of wealthy. Trust me, I'm not. I'm not in danger of starving, but not wealthy. Even if I was wealthy, I should not be forced into spreading said wealth unless I chose too.

274 FrogMarch  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:39:29pm

ot - the TV just got turned on to - regrettably - the USA pageant and all the judges are asking political questions that assume the contestants are progressives:
"what do you think of universal health care"
"should we legalize same sex marriage"

275 reine.de.tout  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:39:33pm

re: #59 MandyManners

I know what you mean. I meant to type in "RudeCrudeDude" when I registered.

I meant to register as roi.de.rien.
But it came out reine.de.tout

276 The Sanity Inspector  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:39:38pm

re: #267 doppelganglander

I think Rick Perry is an idiot, but it's pretty laughable when the guy who got tossed out of Iraq for revealing troop movements screams treason at someone who's merely quoting the 10th amendment.

And how!

277 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:39:38pm

re: #241 doppelganglander

parental consent for minors

Where this part gets a bit tricky is in cases of incest/molestation. Just sayin'.

278 Dr. Shalit  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:40:04pm

re: #223 Salamantis

Salamantis -

With slight refinements, sounds like a program to me. On the "Immigration Thing" - historically, one of the Biggest Opponents of Illegal Immigration, "back in the day" - was Cesar Chavez. Cesar knew the deal, Illegals because of their status would be used as strikebreakers specifically and to depress wages generally. Today's Race Hucksters either don't get it or are paid off - pays your money and take your choice.

-S-

279 irish rose  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:40:10pm

Good on him!

re: #86 Salamantis

When you try to drive down the sensible moderate center/middle of the road, both sets of extremists - the wingnuts and the moonbats - try to reduce you to roadkill. They share more in common with each other - emotion-driven extremism of different stripes - than they share with reasoned rationality.

Truer words have never been written.
I regret that I only have one upding.

280 Bloodnok  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:40:21pm

re: #269 IslandLibertarian

..."his wife's attending an orchid show........
...she screamed for a week to get him to go......
.....back in the bedroom his teenage queen..........
....is rockin' and rollin' and acting obscene".........

/not all gems.........

Fie! That is a great track.

281 aboo-Hoo-Hoo  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:40:27pm

re: #250 Killgore Trout

I have many disagreements with Obama but it looks like he's at least making a serious effort to repair the economy. I can't say that for the Republicans. I just don't see it.

Huh?

/f-it.

282 voirdire  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:40:58pm

Like a good friend of mine used to say: "If it smells, it sells."

283 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:41:02pm

re: #265 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Here's some Dweezil playing guitar for ya!

I chiefly remember Dweezil from a role he had in my father's favorite Schwarzenegger movie, The Running Man.

284 doppelganglander  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:42:14pm

re: #277 Slumbering Behemoth

Where this part gets a bit tricky is in cases of incest/molestation. Just sayin'.

Agreed, and everywhere a parental consent law has been attempted, it includes a provision for a girl to seek permission from a judge.

285 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:43:01pm

I just think it's funny that a Zappa played guitar for Don Johnson.

286 avanti  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:43:03pm

re: #259 Dark_Falcon

The fiberglass body was used to reduce weight, correct? Both of those cars are built for speed.

Not really, it was because both were limited production you can't afford the body dies in steel. You can lay up a fiberglass mold for peanuts. Less then 5000 Studebaker Avanti's were built.

287 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:43:36pm

Good evening Lizards! Hope everyone is doing well tonight.
I just read Charles loves Zappa...
So is that a real poncho or a Sear's poncho you are wearing Charles?
*wink*

288 Salamantis  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:44:03pm

Thanx, folks; Y'all just put be over 15,000 in Karma, with only 9950 posts! That's better than 1.5 karma points per post!

/they like me; they really REALLY like me!

/Not that I ever consider karmic ramifications before I post - because I don't. I don't allow considerations like that to censor or filter my opinions.

289 PSGInfinity  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:44:12pm

re: #45 Captain Amercia

It is truly what Paris Hilton would do.

Say what you will, her customer service skills are excellent...

290 Dr. Shalit  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:44:14pm

re: #259 Dark_Falcon

The fiberglass body was used to reduce weight, correct? Both of those cars are built for speed.

Dark_Falcon -

Actually NOT these days. 'Glass Bodies are cheaper to tool for limited production cars like Corvettes and Avantis. Purer racing cars, like the Cobra, were made in hand hammered ALUMINUM.

-S-

291 DeathtotheSwiss  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:44:20pm

re: #4 Slumbering Behemoth

Ha! See, he was running for a third term. I just knew it!
///

Exactly what I was thinking. This guy's a bit of an idiot.

292 reine.de.tout  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:44:30pm

re: #284 doppelganglander

Agreed, and everywhere a parental consent law has been attempted, it includes a provision for a girl to seek permission from a judge.

And . . . do the judges then ensure the future protection of the minor by removing her from the home and appointing a guardian? This is the thing that isn't clear to me - how is the future protection of the minor ensured in these cases?

293 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:44:48pm
294 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:44:55pm

re: #284 doppelganglander

Hmmm... depending on the district, that could make things even more trickier. I have not perfect answers for this.

295 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:45:00pm

re: #288 Salamantis

Thanx, folks; Y'all just put be over 15,000 in Karma, with only 9950 posts! That's better than 1.5 karma points per post!

/they like me; they really REALLY like me!

/Not that I ever consider karmic ramifications before I post - because I don't. I don't allow considerations like that to censor or filter my opinions.

That's Hall of Fame numbers Sal..Congrads!

296 JacksonTn  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:45:14pm

re: #288 Salamantis

Thanx, folks; Y'all just put be over 15,000 in Karma, with only 9950 posts! That's better than 1.5 karma points per post!

/they like me; they really REALLY like me!

/Not that I ever consider karmic ramifications before I post - because I don't. I don't allow considerations like that to censor or filter my opinions.

Sal ... wiccan good ... congrats ... somebody likes ya ... don't be putting a spell on me ..

297 Irish Rose  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:45:28pm

re: #264 Jimmah

So will I.
Except for the part about Zappa... I'm a ZZ girl myself.

298 MacGregor  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:45:45pm
299 ArmyWife  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:46:03pm

Now I really am leaving for the evening. Y'all have fun, turn out the lights when you leave.

300 Killian Bundy  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:46:06pm

re: #288 Salamantis

Thanx, folks; Y'all just put be over 15,000 in Karma, with only 9950 posts! That's better than 1.5 karma points per post!

/and Sharmuta missed it

301 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:46:20pm

re: #288 Salamantis

/they like me; they really REALLY like me!

Actually, we like your ghost-writer better.

/... :D

302 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:46:38pm

re: #299 ArmyWife

Now I really am leaving for the evening. Y'all have fun, turn out the lights when you leave.

Good Night!

303 Afrocity  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:47:06pm

re: #285 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I just think it's funny that a Zappa played guitar for Don Johnson.

One of my guitars is signed by Zappa. My Les Paul is signed by Les Paul.

304 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:47:50pm

re: #303 Afrocity

One of my guitars is signed by Zappa. My Les Paul is signed by Les Paul.

I think I love you! :)

305 dmandman  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:48:07pm

Here's another little nugget of info coming out Japan. They are saying out loud now that the N Koreans are really scaring them and want to amend their Constitution to have Nuclear weapons. I think one of the results of Obama's foreign policies is to have Japan become a military power again. Won't the Chinese be pleased with that...(Hilllary's pobably having nightmares of having to make refunds every night).

[Link: search.japantimes.co.jp...]

306 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:49:04pm

re: #286 avanti

Not really, it was because both were limited production you can't afford the body dies in steel. You can lay up a fiberglass mold for peanuts. Less then 5000 Studebaker Avanti's were built.

re: #290 Dr. Shalit

Dark_Falcon -

Actually NOT these days. 'Glass Bodies are cheaper to tool for limited production cars like Corvettes and Avantis. Purer racing cars, like the Cobra, were made in hand hammered ALUMINUM.

-S-

Thank you gentlemen. That fact I had not known. Do aluminum bodies create less frame rust than fiberglass?

307 Killian Bundy  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:49:17pm

re: #303 Afrocity

One of my guitars is signed by Zappa. My Les Paul is signed by Les Paul.

/photographs?

308 Gus  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:49:33pm

re: #298 MacGregor

Zappa meets Washington Times - Crossfire 1986

Boy, three against one. They're all ganging up on Zappa.

Seems like 100 years ago.

309 Van Helsing  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:49:46pm

And a live version of 'Titties and Beer' is playing on Radio Free Phoenix.

310 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:50:36pm

re: #297 Irish Rose

I don't know that much Zappa - I have one album, which was a rarity I got on import called "The Man from Utopia" - which is absolutely hilarious as well as great musically.

311 aboo-Hoo-Hoo  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:50:45pm

re: #308 Gus 802

Boy, three against one. They're all ganging up on Zappa.

He had a swimming pool.

312 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:51:21pm
313 Killian Bundy  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:51:40pm

re: #310 Jimmah

I don't know that much Zappa

/start here

314 Gus  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:52:05pm

re: #311 aboo-Hoo-Hoo

Rock lyrics causes incest!

//Seriously that's what the Washington Times guy said.

315 Afrocity  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:53:01pm

re: #307 Killian Bundy

/photographs?

I have photos. My Gibson ES, and I have a Guild too.

316 Killian Bundy  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:53:25pm

re: #315 Afrocity

I have photos. My Gibson ES, and I have a Guild too.

/link 'em

317 Dr. Shalit  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:53:41pm

re: #306 Dark_Falcon

Dark_Falcon -

Believe so, not quite sure, will research. By the way, Epoxy Finishes have slowed frame rusting generally so it may not make such a huge difference anymore.

-S-

318 MacGregor  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:54:13pm

re: #308 Gus 802

Boy, three against one. They're all ganging up on Zappa.

Seems like 100 years ago.

Man, it sure does. I also that was appropriate for Charles' Washington Times post.

319 capitalist piglet  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:54:15pm

re: #223 Salamantis

Pretty much perfect. Run for office, please.

320 Killian Bundy  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:54:18pm

re: #316 Killian Bundy

link 'em

/or were you kidding?

321 doppelganglander  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:54:29pm

re: #292 reine.de.tout

And . . . do the judges then ensure the future protection of the minor by removing her from the home and appointing a guardian? This is the thing that isn't clear to me - how is the future protection of the minor ensured in these cases?

I'm not sure, but your concern is very valid. To be honest, I'm not sure where parental consent has ever been enacted. The pro-abortion folks always manage to oppose even common sense restrictions and tie things up in court for eons. If it were me, I would say that in order to have a judge make the decision to allow an abortion, there would have to be immediate action including pulling the girl out of her home, if that's where the abuser is, and starting a criminal investigation. But that might hinder some girls from coming forward for fear of disrupting the family. It amazes me how many times the family turns on the victim for disrupting the status quo. So again, there are no perfect solutions.

322 Neutral President  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:55:38pm

re: #283 Dark_Falcon

I chiefly remember Dweezil from a role he had in my father's favorite Schwarzenegger movie, The Running Man.

LOL, I seriously just finished watching that about 10 minutes ago. I having a campy Schwarzenegger movie fest today.

323 OldLineTexan  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:57:09pm

re: #293 buzzsawmonkey

Regarding Obama's "serious effort to repair the economy": Porkulus.

As to the Republicans making "a serious effort"--just how do you propose they do that with a very much minority voice in both Houses and a far-left President?

Hey, too bad it's too late to go vote for him, huh? Well, there's always 2012; but by then everyone will be an Internet Nazi at the current rate.

324 stuiec  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:57:21pm

re: #225 Charles

Another point: I haven't changed my position against Islamic fascism one bit. I still believe it's a threat to Western civilization, profoundly anti-democratic, and needs to be fought.

However, I have learned (to my dismay) that many of the people who portray themselves as "anti-jihad" are simply paranoid bigots, and/or religious fanatics with hidden motives, who have hitched a ride on the justifiable outrage most of us felt after the 9/11 attacks.

My objections to radical Islam are based on my commitment to classical liberalism, and the values of the Enlightenment.

And my love for the music of Frank Zappa.

Churchill hated Communism, but he knew he needed Stalin as much as he needed Roosevelt if England were to outlast Nazi Germany.

When it comes to fighting Islamic fascism, there needs to be a coalition that will persuade the Congress that there is in fact an enemy called "Islamic fascism" and that it poses an existential threat to Western civilization. It unfortunately won't be numerically effective if it's only a coalition of those who believe in classical liberalism and the values of the Enlightenment. (And on that particular criterion, I believe both Barack Obama and John McCain are wrong when they say that closing Gitmo and restricting interrogation techniques to the Army Field Manual make us more secure by demonstrating to the world how true we are to Enlightenment values.)

So where are the boundaries that you personally believe must circumscribe this coalition? Whom can you accept as a tactical ally in the fight against Islamic fascism, and whom would you reject under any circumstances whatsoever?

325 Mich-again  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:57:52pm

re: #223 Salamantis

A balanced budget amendment that can only be overridden with the votes of 2/3 of both houses of Congress, 2/3 of the state governors, and a Presidential signature.

Entitlements, interest on the debt and the military take up more than 80% of the budget. The only way to a balance the budget is to make big cuts in them as well as in just about everything the 18% for discretionary spending buys.

We need to grow out of the recession but Washington and the State Capitols are all hell-bent on sucking the life out of every business that tries to turn a profit. Until they kill them off, at which point the politicians decide to step in to "save" them.

Overregulation in every phase of the operation, An insane tort system, layers and layers of taxation at local, state and federal level, A health care system that forces people with health insurance to subsidize those without, I could go on. And all I have heard from the Obama administration is that they plan to increase regulation and the cost of doing business here. Hugo Chavez could teach Obama about capitalism. Thats what scares me most. Our President has no idea what it takes to operate a business that has to pay bills.

326 Gus  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:58:21pm

re: #318 MacGregor

Man, it sure does. I also that was appropriate for Charles' Washington Times post.

A John Lofton. Ironically he was Communcations Director for Constitution Party Presidential candidate Michael Anthony Peroutka in 2004.

My mistake. Looks like it's 2 against 2.

Zappa does stretch it about the fascist theocracy bit. Maybe it's because he feels cornered or he was a little stoned. Kind of a real creepy debate overall.

327 Irish Rose  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:59:04pm

Kudos to you Charles, from a Blogger virgin.
It needed to be said.

328 Afrocity  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:00:13pm

re: #316 Killian Bundy

/link 'em

How? I have the pic on my PC

329 Neutral President  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:00:18pm

re: #324 stuiec

Translation: "Im ok with buddying up with Neonazis and racists as long as they are fighting jihad."

I'll say again, not only no, but HELL no. Nazis are a dealbreaker.

330 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:00:34pm

re: #322 ArchangelMichael

LOL, I seriously just finished watching that about 10 minutes ago. I having a campy Schwarzenegger movie fest today.

It's not one of his best known movies, but I maintain it's one of his best movies.

331 Jimash  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:01:07pm

I can't imagine a situation where I would shove one of my guitars in somebodies face and ask him to sign it, no offense.
If you get the right one it comes with Mr. Paul's sig already on it.
I got B.B. king's sig on a of of neckwear from the 60's cause he did two sets and shook hands between. I even got to touch Lucille ( the red 355).

332 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:01:49pm
333 Spartacus50  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:02:17pm

"with the defeat of Bush"

When was he defeated?

334 Wendya  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:03:13pm

re: #250 Killgore Trout

I have many disagreements with Obama but it looks like he's at least making a serious effort to repair the economy. I can't say that for the Republicans. I just don't see it.

Repair the economy by introducing trillions of dollars in debt?

Surely you jest.....


As for the republicans, what is it you think they can accomplish with a majority party that has an "I won, screw you" mentality?

335 Neutral President  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:03:56pm

re: #330 Dark_Falcon

It's not one of his best known movies, but I maintain it's one of his best movies.

My favorite for purely comedy value is Commando. Kills around 125 armed people without running out of ammo or getting more than a scratch. Dropping the guy from the Warriors off a cliff and then saying "I let him go" was the ultimate Arnold one-liner.

336 OldLineTexan  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:04:11pm

re: #333 Spartacus50

"with the defeat of Bush"

When was he defeated?

All Republicans are Bushies.
Bush = Hitler.
Hitler = Nazi.
QED Republicans = Nazis.

It's the nirther logic of the left, but ut has many fans.

337 Salamantis  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:05:54pm

re: #327 Irish Rose

Kudos to you Charles, from a Blogger virgin.
It needed to be said.

Kudos to you for saying it.

/btw; it's deaf ears, not dear ears. And I would have listed Brussels Journal along with Gates of Vienna and Atlas Shrugs

338 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:06:56pm

re: #335 ArchangelMichael

My favorite for purely comedy value is Commando. Kills around 125 armed people without running out of ammo or getting more than a scratch. Dropping the guy from the Warriors off a cliff and then saying "I let him go" was the ultimate Arnold one-liner.

Agreed. The scenes you refer to from Commando are right up there on the Hollywood Howlers list.

339 doppelganglander  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:07:09pm

re: #332 Iron Fist

A lot of underage girls who seek abortions get the money from their boyfriend. Who happens to be older than she is. Considerably.

The concern isn't that the girl's dad is the father, it is that the father is guilty of statutory rape. While I'll readily concur that some of those lines are drawn rather arbitrarily, the line has to be somewhere. And most Americans are not comfortable with a 50 year old man having sex with a 15 year old girl. But somehow that particular aspect of the question usually gets glossed over.

There's a group that has done sting operations against Planned Parenthood. An adult calls, pretending to be 13 or 14 and in need of an abortion. She mentions that the baby's father is 21, or whatever, and will that be a problem? The PP counselor tells her not to mention it, they won't ask and they won't report it. Every state has a law requiring health care providers to report abuse if they become aware of it, yet do you think this is going to be prosecuted? Of course not.

And in response to your other post, I find it very disturbing that my 16-year-old daughter can't get her ears pierced without my permission, but she can get an abortion without my knowledge or consent.

340 Jimash  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:11:08pm

re: #328 Afrocity

You can use a photo site like Snapfish or photobucket or flickr.
[Link: www.snapfish.com...]
Put 'em up I love guitar porn.

341 PSGInfinity  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:11:21pm

re: #324 stuiec


[SNIP]
When it comes to fighting Islamic fascism, there needs to be a coalition that will persuade the Congress that there is in fact an enemy called "Islamic fascism" and that it poses an existential threat to Western civilization. It unfortunately won't be numerically effective if it's only a coalition of those who believe in classical liberalism and the values of the Enlightenment.
[SNIP]
So where are the boundaries that you personally believe must circumscribe this coalition? Whom can you accept as a tactical ally in the fight against Islamic fascism, and whom would you reject under any circumstances whatsoever?

This IS NOT a hypothetical question. Factional politics has doomed many a state with the various True Believers preferring the enemy to their opponent - to their sorrow. I believe that it will be a close thing if Western Civilization will even survive, and we'll need ewvery willing hand on board to do it.

We'll all end up choosing: The opponent, or the enemy?

342 Killian Bundy  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:12:42pm

re: #328 Afrocity

How? I have the pic on my PC

For starters, do you really have the autographs on the guitars you mentioned or were you joking? If so, you need to upload the pictures to the internet for linking.

/your ISP should allow you plenty of capacity, otherwise, photo sharing sites like flickr

343 Irenike  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:13:24pm

Okay, bypassing the abortion thread and the Frank Zappa thread, here is my reaction to the original topic.

The Republican party is the loser right now. And, like any party that is the loser, the loonies are screaming the loudest, trying to fight for their moment at the helm. The same thing happened when the Dems were the losers during the Bush years. Remember all the crazy crap that was posted on Daily Kos and MoveOn.org? Remember the "Bushitler" bumper stickers? Ward Churchill? Arianna Huffington's comments? Samantha Powers? How about the way the Dems tore themselves apart when Hillary and BO were fighting for the presidential nomination? Despite all that ruckus, they pulled themselves together and won big time in the November elections. The Democratic party looks golden now. The Big O is the winner, and he defines his party. The left-wing loonies have faded away. The Republicans have no such winner by which to define themselves, so it is a free-for-all.

President Teleprompter's golden days will not last forever, though. Mark my words. The shine is going to come off his penny when the next attack hits our soil, when inflation becomes so rampant that dollar bills are worth less than toilet paper, or when the world finds itself plunged into another serious war, God forbid. I believe there is really serious crap coming down the pike, and Obama is going to fumble. Big time. The bad guys have his number, and they will walk all over him. The laws of economics are constant, no matter how good O's speeches are. When the bad stuff happens, the loonies on the right will again look like the fools they are and resume their proper place under rocks and on the fringes. Right now, it is fun to hold them up as exemplars of the loser Republicans. But this fun will not last when Americans wonder why the Great O's policies are making them poorer, less safe, and less healthy.

344 Spare O'Lake  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:17:55pm

Good evening, Lizards.
The ongoing pathetic and biased MSM political coverage has always made me appreciate LGF.
The current meltdown in the MSM, with the networks' increasing abandonment of even the pretence of objectivity, makes me appreciate LGF even more.
Keep up the good fight, Charles, and keep on exposing and calling out the idiocy -- no matter where it hails from.

345 Salamantis  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:18:22pm

re: #341 PSGInfinity

This IS NOT a hypothetical question. Factional politics has doomed many a state with the various True Believers preferring the enemy to their opponent - to their sorrow. I believe that it will be a close thing if Western Civilization will even survive, and we'll need ewvery willing hand on board to do it.

We'll all end up choosing: The opponent, or the enemy?

Eurofascists ar our enemies no les than Islamofascists are. They attempt to vampirize antijihadi credibility by piggybacking on the movement, costing us crediblity with decent people in the process.

My father and several of my uncles fought in WW II; one of my uncles died of his wounds. NO WAY will I climb in bed with the ideological heair of those genocidal bastards! And many, perhaps most, Americans have similar tales to tell, and feel the exact same way.

Plus, Fascists can't be trusted; just ask Stalin. Every alliance with them is just a hudna of convenience, to be unilaterally broken when it serves their purposes to do so, and they're strong enough to stab you in the back.

With Islamofascists already firing into our foxholes from theirs, the LAST thing we should have to worry about is Eurofascist bullets flying at us from INSIDE our own foxholes.

346 Afrocity  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:18:25pm

I put a pic of my guitars on my blog. my nic is blue

347 Jimash  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:18:37pm

Like this (Courtesy of Shaky Jim's photography)
One has Chet Atkins written on it.

Gaudy Gretsches

348 Killian Bundy  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:20:03pm

re: #346 Afrocity

I put a pic of my guitars on my blog. my nic is blue

/not seeing the guitars

349 Archimedes  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:20:48pm

Anyone hear what Jackie Chan said about the Chinese?

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]


BOAO, China – Action star Jackie Chan said Saturday he's not sure if a free society is a good thing for China and that he's starting to think "we Chinese need to be controlled."

Here is some of the reaction.
[Link: www.cbc.ca...]


I'm a fan of Jackie Chan, but that's pretty bad stuff.

350 Jimash  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:21:44pm

re: #346 Afrocity

WOW !
Love your blog.
Absolutely Love that Guild Starfire the 330, the MAestro amp. NICE !

351 Killian Bundy  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:22:01pm

re: #348 Killian Bundy

not seeing the guitars

Refreshed.

/do I need to scroll down?

352 reine.de.tout  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:22:07pm

re: #321 doppelganglander

I'm not sure, but your concern is very valid. To be honest, I'm not sure where parental consent has ever been enacted. The pro-abortion folks always manage to oppose even common sense restrictions and tie things up in court for eons. If it were me, I would say that in order to have a judge make the decision to allow an abortion, there would have to be immediate action including pulling the girl out of her home, if that's where the abuser is, and starting a criminal investigation. But that might hinder some girls from coming forward for fear of disrupting the family. It amazes me how many times the family turns on the victim for disrupting the status quo. So again, there are no perfect solutions.

No, absolutely, no perfect solutions.
And yes, very often the family "turns" on the victim for disrupting the status quo. But perhaps that would turn out to be the best possible thing for the victim, so that she gets removed from a family that doesn't cherish her enough to protect her.

353 victor_yugo  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:22:20pm

re: #349 Archimedes

It makes me think twice about watching another movie of his.

354 irish rose  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:22:50pm

Sre: #337 Salamantis

Spellcheck is fundamentally flawed.

355 BlueBottle  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:22:55pm

Anytime a government spends any money, citizens must pay for it.

Govt spending == taxes.

356 OldLineTexan  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:24:11pm

re: #354 irish rose

S

Spellcheck is fundamentally flawed.

Ewe don't say sew.

357 Killian Bundy  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:24:15pm

re: #350 Jimash

Absolutely Love that Guild Starfire the 330, the MAestro amp. NICE !

/what blog are you looking at?

358 Jimash  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:25:51pm

re: #357 Killian Bundy

On the right side of the front page is a small "about" link. That page has the nice guitar and cat pictures.

359 pocomoco  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:27:26pm

Charles,

WHY HAVE YOU LET LGF BECOME A CHAT ROOM?

I thought it was a place to comment on specific headlines, not a place to rant about personal pecadillos.

360 Killian Bundy  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:27:56pm

re: #348 Killian Bundy

/not seeing the guitars

Okay, I get it, click the contact tab.

/still not seeing any autographed guitars, although the guitars themselves are nice, but that's a Les Paul clone

361 Archimedes  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:28:27pm

re: #353 victor_yugo

It makes me think twice about watching another movie of his.

I regret to say I feel the same way.

362 Killian Bundy  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:35:13pm

re: #360 Killian Bundy

Okay, I get it, click the contact tab.

that's a Les Paul clone

Hit me with the year and model.

/but most Les Pauls I know of sport pickup covers

363 Bloodnok  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:36:52pm

re: #359 pocomoco

My cat's breath smells like cat food.

364 Jimash  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:39:13pm

re: #362 Killian Bundy

Pickup covers aside, I don't know what that one is.
Odd switch placement suggests late 70's. Not an epiphone. Not a Sonex.
Not a "The Paul". Some weird "Special" ?

365 PSGInfinity  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:39:33pm

re: #345 Salamantis

Eurofascists ar[e] our enemies no les[s] than Islamofascists are. They attempt to vampirize antijihadi credibility by piggybacking on the movement, costing us crediblity with decent people in the process.

My father and several of my uncles fought in WW II; one of my uncles died of his wounds. NO WAY will I climb in bed with the ideological he[]ir of those genocidal bastards! And many, perhaps most, Americans have similar tales to tell, and feel the exact same way.

Plus, Fascists can't be trusted; just ask Stalin. Every alliance with them is just a hudna of convenience, to be unilaterally broken when it serves their purposes to do so, and they're strong enough to stab you in the back.

With Islamofascists already firing into our foxholes from theirs, the LAST thing we should have to worry about is Eurofascist bullets flying at us from INSIDE our own foxholes.

I understand where you're coming from; two of my cousins and I have served in the Army. My theory is that the current Eurofascists can be civilized - housebroken, if you will, and are infinitely less dangerous than the Islamists. I could very well be wrong, but I still think that alley should be explored.

I also believe that they're deriving a lot oof their support from Europeans who've awoken to the magnitude of their 'betters' betrayal. They NEED to go through a fascist phase to reestablish a communal trust shattered by the Utopian Tranzis, and Atheists.

Hope that helps...

366 Killian Bundy  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:43:10pm

re: #362 Killian Bundy

Hit me with the year and model.

/but most Les Pauls I know of sport pickup covers

/and there's no pickguard, then again I own an old Custom

367 Afrocity  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:44:32pm

re: #360 Killian Bundy

It is "the paul' 1979 walnut and it is an Es 335 w/ P 90's, it has a center block and the 330 does not limited edition.

368 Yosemite Bill  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:46:14pm

133 - Charles Yes I knew soon after my later arrival here that you were not a capital C type Conservative.
I just recently learned of your musical background and having spent five years on the professional stage as a youth - that explains much of what I see expressed here.
The performing arts world tends to shape a certain world view and I can see a genuine conflict in that world view and a 9/12 conservative. That 9/12 remark is not meant as a pejorative- just reality.
What I object to is the compulsion by many - BHO and his cadre - in the fatal belief that it is still 9/10/01.

369 Spartacus50  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:46:26pm

re: #366 Killian Bundy

/and there's no pickguard, then again I own an old Custom

get a room already

370 OldLineTexan  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:48:56pm

re: #369 Spartacus50

get a room studio already

/

371 Killian Bundy  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:48:56pm

re: #367 Afrocity

It is "the paul' 1979 walnut and it is an Es 335 w/ P 90's, it has a center block and the 330 does not limited edition.

Okay, not a "Les Paul".

/and the Les Paul signature, did that come with the guitar or was it a Les Paul autograph, like with a Sharpie or something?

372 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:49:42pm
373 Jimash  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:50:18pm

re: #367 Afrocity

Well they are certainly very nice. That 330 is a peach.
I am corrected it IS a "The Paul" Knew I recognisized the funny switch placement .

374 rhino2  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:52:22pm

re: #250 Killgore Trout

I don't see what 0bama is doing as a "serious attempt to repair the economy". We needn't look far back into history to see where this sort of direct government intervention into private economies leads. There are plenty of nations we can look at right now whose government owns a majority of their economy, and these nations are not as prosperous as the United States, and are not on track to catch up.

If someone were making "serious attempts to repair the economy" I don't believe nationalization of industry is the path they would put us on.

375 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:52:25pm
376 Bloodnok  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:52:51pm

re: #372 tryptic67

Pizzagate was not a "gate". Charles was correct. You are wrong.

377 stuiec  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:54:40pm

re: #365 PSGInfinity

I understand where you're coming from; two of my cousins and I have served in the Army. My theory is that the current Eurofascists can be civilized - housebroken, if you will, and are infinitely less dangerous than the Islamists. I could very well be wrong, but I still think that alley should be explored.

I also believe that they're deriving a lot oof their support from Europeans who've awoken to the magnitude of their 'betters' betrayal. They NEED to go through a fascist phase to reestablish a communal trust shattered by the Utopian Tranzis, and Atheists.

Hope that helps...

I can't go with you there.

European neo-Nazis have to be kept at heel at least, if not eradicated through drying up their recruitment by better educating European youth on the alternatives to racist hyper-nationalist statism. Same as with American neo-Nazis.

The people who form an ideological bridge to those fringes -- Ron Paul, Pat Buchanan, and such -- need to have their links to those fringes exposed and if they choose to maintain those links, we need to see them for what they are. Most important, though, is we need to ask the followers of Ron Paul and Pat Buchanan to see who those people really are and to choose whether to continue to follow them over the cliff to the fringes.

As to people with strong religious beliefs, I know we have some Constitutional guardrails that protect their rights to believe and my rights to believe differently. Anyone willing to respect those guardrails and keep their personal religious practices and beliefs out of public policy, I'm fine with them.

378 Jimash  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:54:51pm

re: #367 Afrocity

Oh I just got it that its a 335 w/ P90's. Odd, still very cool.
I know about the center blocks.

379 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:55:28pm

#372: Bye now! Farewell comment deleted.

380 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:56:21pm
381 PSGInfinity  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:59:51pm

re: #377 stuiec

OK. I understand that mine's a minority view. But I appreciate your explanation, even if I weigh the dangers differently...

382 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 8:01:07pm

re: #359 pocomoco

Charles,

WHY HAVE YOU LET LGF BECOME A CHAT ROOM?

I thought it was a place to comment on specific headlines, not a place to rant about personal pecadillos.

If you don't like reading LGF, there's nothing stopping you from going elsewhere. Or you could start your own blog.

Unless, that is, you prefer to complain and whine at me about what's posted at MY blog.

383 stuiec  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 8:02:26pm

re: #376 Bloodnok

Pizzagate was not a "gate". Charles was correct. You are wrong.

True. It was an error of appearances, not substance.

Obama didn't ask the government to foot the bill for the pizza chef. But it sort of looked like Bill Clinton having Air Force One sit on a runway at LAX while he got a spiffy hairdo. Especially when the American economy is in a downturn, one in which Obama alleges people are on the verge of going hungry. And even more especially at a moment when an American ship was involved in a pirate attack and its captain taken hostage.

Rather than call it Pizzagate, I would characterize it as a "Barack Antoinette moment." Let them eat pizza pie!

384 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 8:03:29pm

re: #383 stuiec

True. It was an error of appearances, not substance.

Obama didn't ask the government to foot the bill for the pizza chef. But it sort of looked like Bill Clinton having Air Force One sit on a runway at LAX while he got a spiffy hairdo. Especially when the American economy is in a downturn, one in which Obama alleges people are on the verge of going hungry. And even more especially at a moment when an American ship was involved in a pirate attack and its captain taken hostage.

Rather than call it Pizzagate, I would characterize it as a "Barack Antoinette moment." Let them eat pizza pie!

I would call it yet another case of absurd hyperventilation over a non-issue by the right-wing blogosphere.

385 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 8:03:41pm

re: #376 Bloodnok

Pizzagate was not a "gate". Charles was correct. You are wrong.

Was that someone still 'hurting' from the pizza incident? LOL

386 Afrocity  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 8:03:53pm

re: #378 Jimash

They only made 150 with P-90's, usually always humbuckers

387 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 8:04:26pm

re: #385 Jimmah

Was that someone still 'hurting' from the pizza incident? LOL

Amazing, isn't it?

388 Cato the Elder  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 8:04:39pm

re: #379 Charles

That was a flame-out.

Tryptic, as your parachute drifts slowly earthward, you should pause for a moment to thank Charles for remotely triggering your ejection seat before you could crash into the ground and plow a deep, fiery pit of a grave for yourself.

389 Jimash  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 8:07:36pm

re: #386 Afrocity

It looks like a handful. I like it. Bet you can sing too.
My P90 Dyna jones

390 Afrocity  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 8:08:40pm

re: #389 Jimash

Pic didn't work

391 pingjockey  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 8:11:11pm

Holy Moly! Go to dinner come back and it's deja vu all over again. "Splodin heads!

392 Killian Bundy  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 8:11:37pm

re: #386 Afrocity

They only made 150 with P-90's, usually always humbuckers

Awesome! Are they yours?

One of my guitars is signed by Zappa. My Les Paul The Paul is signed by Les Paul.

/sorry if I'm still dwelling on that updated statement

393 Jimash  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 8:12:40pm
394 Afrocity  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 8:12:50pm

re: #392 Killian Bundy

Yep they are mine.

395 Killian Bundy  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 8:13:55pm

re: #394 Afrocity

Yep they are mine.

/and, what about the "signatures"?

396 Cato the Elder  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 8:14:06pm

re: #133 Charles

I used to try to fight against the characterization that LGF was a "right wing" blog. Eventually, I gave up because it was pointless; I realized they were going to put me in that pigeonhole no matter what I wrote.

Now a lot of people seem to feel betrayed and angry because they made assumptions about my views on issues such as creationism, gay rights, abortion, etc. etc.

I tried to tell them, but they just didn't want to listen.

I can only be honest about my opinions. If that means I need to be excommunicated from the "right wing," I'm fine with that.

Because I never joined.

Seems the leftoids made that assumption based on hatred for anyone who doesn't hew to the "When in Danger or in Doubt, Blame the US, Scream and Shout" doctrine à la Chomsky et Cie. The rightards made the same assumption for the same reason.

How terribly sad for them all. Reason prevails, they go off the rails. Hear those wails? It never fails.

397 Afrocity  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 8:19:12pm

re: #395 Killian Bundy

On the top of the body is signed by Les Paul and I have another pic guard for the tele, signed. I saw Les Paul at the Iridium two years ago he does autographs after his 2nd show every Monday night.

398 Cato the Elder  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 8:19:39pm

re: #79 Dark_Falcon

That damn poem again. Automatic downding for each occurrence.

(Marginally better than Tim McVeigh's fave, "Invictus", I suppose, but only just.)

399 Jimash  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 8:23:27pm

Good nite everyone.
Thanks for the string Charles.

400 muddywood  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 8:25:04pm

Fiscally conservative + socially liberal = you want lower taxes so you can buy more pot.

401 Salamantis  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 8:25:20pm

re: #365 PSGInfinity

I understand where you're coming from; two of my cousins and I have served in the Army. My theory is that the current Eurofascists can be civilized - housebroken, if you will, and are infinitely less dangerous than the Islamists. I could very well be wrong, but I still think that alley should be explored.

I also believe that they're deriving a lot oof their support from Europeans who've awoken to the magnitude of their 'betters' betrayal. They NEED to go through a fascist phase to reestablish a communal trust shattered by the Utopian Tranzis, and Atheists.

Hope that helps...

Hitler was just going through a 'phase', I guess. And how many tens of millions of lives did it take to kill that genocidal flower rather than nip it in the bud? And if left undestroyed, where would that malignant blossom have led the world?

402 Killian Bundy  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 8:26:05pm

re: #397 Afrocity

On the top of the body is signed by Les Paul and I have another pic guard for the tele, signed.

By Zappa? And looking at the photograph I I don't see any Les Paul autograph, hoist a closeup.

/you know, unless you still don't know how to upload images to your blog after already uploading images to your blog

403 Salamantis  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 8:28:29pm

re: #400 muddywood

Fiscally conservative + socially liberal = you want lower taxes so you can buy more pot.

Geez; you forgot about buying more abortions and butt plugs!

/

404 muddywood  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 8:30:58pm

re: #403 Salamantis

Geez; you forgot about buying more abortions and butt plugs!

/

I don't need to go there.
Just hit em where it hurts.

405 Afrocity  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 8:32:04pm

re: #402 Killian Bundy

excuse me? Do you want to come to my house and have a Guitar Hero contest?

406 Killian Bundy  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 8:34:30pm

re: #405 Afrocity

excuse me? Do you want to come to my house and have a Guitar Hero contest?

/do you want me to call bull[expletive deleted]?

407 danrudy  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 8:35:12pm

re: #223 Salamantis

Here are my political positions:

No creationism/ID in public schools - period.

Gay civil unions, with the same rights and privileges as marriage, without the label.

Abortion allowed in the first trimester, allowed in cases of rape or incest until fetal viability (halfway through the second trimester), only allowed afterwards in cases of genuine danger to the woman's life or physical health (danger of brain damage, paralysis, etc.).

A balanced budget amendment that can only be overridden with the votes of 2/3 of both houses of Congress, 2/3 of the state governors, and a Presidential signature.

An effective border fence to prevent illegal immigration, coupled with sanctions against employers of illegal aliens. One offense - you get heavily fined and any people directly and knowingly involved face felony trials; a second offense, with proof that you knew what you were doing - more felony trials, and forced dissolution of the business.

A foreign policy of relentlessly fighting global jihadism and spreading constitutional democracy - by political, diplomatic and economic means where possible and sufficient, by military force if possible and necessary.

Flame away!

Wow....its scared the shit out of me that we agree on ALMOST everything. Despite our discussions on ID/and creationism (where I thought folks were being to insulting of religious folks) I do agree that it should be kept out of public schools.

However, I don't really agree with your abortion position. I personally am against abortion (and it has nothing to do with religion...simply biology and logic. ) Your "viability " test echos the supreme court decision which was just plain silly IMHO.
I must have missed the discussion of this topic on this blog.

Otherwise we are close to in sync...yikes!

408 Killian Bundy  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 8:40:44pm

1972 (July) Rickenbacker 4000 stereo bass (serial #LG681)
blonde "checkerboard"

/hope that didn't take too long

409 muddywood  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 8:41:51pm

re: #408 Killian Bundy

1972 (July) Rickenbacker 4000 stereo bass (serial #LG681)
blonde "checkerboard"

/hope that didn't take too long

NICE!

410 Afrocity  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 8:41:55pm

re: #406 Killian Bundy

/do you want me to call bull[expletive deleted]?

Think what you want I have lots of autographs, Duke Robilard, Danny Gaton, Jim Marshals, Buddy Guy, John Hammond, Johnny Winter. That's why my blog is named what it is. Oh well, I thought I could talk guitars with someone who understood...nite all I am taking a bath.

411 Killian Bundy  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 8:42:52pm

re: #409 muddywood

NICE!

5 minute from photograph to post.

/didn't even bother to clean the wall

412 Afrocity  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 8:43:03pm

re: #408 Killian Bundy

Looks like Gheddy Lee.

413 Killian Bundy  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 8:43:53pm

re: #410 Afrocity

Think what you want I have lots of autographs, Duke Robilard, Danny Gaton, Jim Marshals, Buddy Guy, John Hammond, Johnny Winter. That's why my blog is named what it is. Oh well, I thought I could talk guitars with someone who understood...nite all I am taking a bath.

/maybe someday you'll let us see one

414 PSGInfinity  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 8:46:34pm

re: #401 Salamantis

Hitler was just going through a 'phase', I guess. And how many tens of millions of lives did it take to kill that genocidal flower rather than nip it in the bud? And if left undestroyed, where would that malignant blossom have led the world?

I'll concede it's a risk, but manageable for several reasons. One, none of them have displayed Hitler's grandiosity. Two, their new supporters aren't fascistic, merely patriots appalled at what's become of their respective nations. This will substantially limit their worst tendencies, IMO. Three, they'll have their hands full once the Islamists put *their* cards on the table - it'll be 'all hands on deck at that point.

Once the bloodletting stops they'll likely stop any violent foolishness either out of exhaustion - or defeat. And as far as to the question of "How much blood will be spilled?", my guess is in the dozens, or the millions; take your pick. IMO, this is going to become *very* ugly.

415 devnulled  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 8:47:25pm

I prefer the term "unorganized awakening" to "civil war on the right".

I am a reformed Newsmax/WorldNetDaily fan and keeping my mouth shut has served me well here so far. (except for that one time, which I barely escaped a broken and battered newbie.. but still with my account here).

Zombietime and LGF are practically my only places left for the good news. Rush is walking the fine line of sin by omission that Washington Times and ESPECIALLY Newsmax engage in. He is great for learning something intelligent every hour of every day he preaches his schtick, but he is still too rabble-rousing for me to slap a Limbaugh Nation bumper sticker on my car.

The honesty Charles enforces here is pure gold. Some of it takes me a while to ingest properly.

416 PSGInfinity  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 8:49:24pm

re: #401 Salamantis

BTW, one of the reasons you've achieved a 1.5:1 Karma/Post ratio is your willingness to fight on the merits of the issue, rather than devolve into name-calling. Thank you, I appreciate that.

417 Killian Bundy  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 8:51:09pm

re: #410 Afrocity

Think what you want I have lots of autographs, Duke Robilard, Danny Gaton, Jim Marshals, Buddy Guy, John Hammond, Johnny Winter..

/Zappa?

418 Killian Bundy  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 9:00:01pm

re: #405 Afrocity

excuse me? Do you want to come to my house and have a Guitar Hero contest?

As opposed to real guitar?

/the two are pretty much mutually exclusive

419 battletop2  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 9:20:08pm

I think its time for my nap.

420 Salamantis  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 9:38:57pm

re: #414 PSGInfinity

I'll concede it's a risk, but manageable for several reasons. One, none of them have displayed Hitler's grandiosity. Two, their new supporters aren't fascistic, merely patriots appalled at what's become of their respective nations. This will substantially limit their worst tendencies, IMO. Three, they'll have their hands full once the Islamists put *their* cards on the table - it'll be 'all hands on deck at that point.

Once the bloodletting stops they'll likely stop any violent foolishness either out of exhaustion - or defeat. And as far as to the question of "How much blood will be spilled?", my guess is in the dozens, or the millions; take your pick. IMO, this is going to become *very* ugly.

When facing an Islamofascism in full bloom, the LAST thing we should do is nurture the burgeoning budding of Eurofascism. Why enable a once and future enemy in order to combat a present one, especially when being publicly associated with it costs us vastly more mainstream support than could even be compensated for from such malignant fringes?

421 Salamantis  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 9:40:42pm

re: #416 PSGInfinity

BTW, one of the reasons you've achieved a 1.5:1 Karma/Post ratio is your willingness to fight on the merits of the issue, rather than devolve into name-calling. Thank you, I appreciate that.

I have been known to do that, too - but only when replying in kind.

422 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 9:42:28pm

Comment at Harry's Place from "Johan":

The feast of crosslinking between LGF and HP today does prompt the thought:
Bacon and Chocolate - together at last.

As a regular reader of both blogs I always thought it was only a matter of time before it was realised that the centre right and centre left had more in common with each other than with their tribal affiliations. There is enough bad crazy out there now - on both sides of the pond that the centre has to hold fast accross the putative left right divide, to effectively make a stand against it - especially when every extremist from every far pole of the political compass is sniffing the air of economic uncertainty with the same relish Colonel Killgore reserved for the scent of napalm in the morning.

423 Marvo76  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 9:53:34pm

Just a question here, Just for shits and giggles......What , (if by some chance) Obama really IS hiding the birth in another country? What would we do? what COULD WE do? Or would it be better just to leave him in office? thoughts?

424 Killian Bundy  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 9:56:12pm

re: #423 Marvo76

Just a question here, Just for shits and giggles......What , (if by some chance) Obama really IS hiding the birth in another country? What would we do? what COULD WE do? Or would it be better just to leave him in office? thoughts?

Nothing.

/so just realx

425 Sharmuta  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 9:56:27pm

re: #423 Marvo76

I think it's a waste of time to even entertain such notions.

426 Adrenalyn  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 10:43:23pm

"with the defeat of Bush"

WTF is that about ?
is Bush still President ?
did he run for a 3rd term

how come his name keeps getting brought up
so now the right is doing as the left
trying to smear the other side by bringing up a past President ?

we're doomed to socialism if this keeps up
more bashing of the right
without equal time given to bashing the left

for cripes sake
if you bash Bush when 0bama repeats his mistakes
why not credit him when 0bama gets credit too

but why bother bringing him up at all

and really, really, really
what is with misquoting Limbaugh
"like Rush Limbaugh - want Obama to fail..."

Limbaugh has stated many times, he wants socialism to fail

now we know where Alan Colmes is working

427 stuiec  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 10:46:23pm

re: #384 Charles

I would call it yet another case of absurd hyperventilation over a non-issue by the right-wing blogosphere.

People are allowed to absurdly hyperventilate over non-issues from time to time. Some people even absurdly hyperventilate over one nation's President showing up in a handshake photo with another nation's President -- because the mere appearance suggests a shift in our nation's foreign policy, whether or not such a shift is real.

When people become fixated on non-issues, as the nirthers, they become counter-productive.

And when they become fixated on serious issues in bizarre ways, as the Troofers, they become dangerous.

428 stuiec  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 10:52:33pm

re: #223 Salamantis

My only point of difference with your political platform is on the question of abortion in cases of rape or incest. Given that your platform specifies abortion on demand in the first trimester, I would not advocate a rape or incest exception to extend past the first trimester. Our society rejects the death penalty for those who rape or commit incest, and I don't see how it's moral to spare the life of the rapist but permit the destruction of the rapist's offspring (who's not guilty of any crime).

As for all your other points: same as me. Isn't that weird?

429 SixDegrees  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:08:39pm

You go, Charles.

Keep up the good fight.

430 SixDegrees  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:21:50pm

re: #18 zombie

(Obama will likely waltz in unopposed anyway, but at least this way we have a chance at putting together a coherent counter-strategy.)

Quite possible. Meanwhile, having an opposition that is coherent and well organized still has enormous benefits. In their lame duck term, Presidents face much more pressure to accommodate the opposition in order to get things accomplished at all. Their own party is also less likely to provide unanimous support for similar reasons.

431 Salamantis  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:22:27pm

re: #428 stuiec

My only point of difference with your political platform is on the question of abortion in cases of rape or incest. Given that your platform specifies abortion on demand in the first trimester, I would not advocate a rape or incest exception to extend past the first trimester. Our society rejects the death penalty for those who rape or commit incest, and I don't see how it's moral to spare the life of the rapist but permit the destruction of the rapist's offspring (who's not guilty of any crime).

As for all your other points: same as me. Isn't that weird?

I differ because of a personal experience.

A 14 year old girl who livd in the country neat me was repeatedly raped by her drunken fundamentalist father (her mother had long ago fled the scene).. The nurse reported her when she came to the middle school clinic complaining of nausea (it turned out to be morning sickness).

She was removed from the home and the father was jailed, but refused to grant permission for an abortion, claiming that it was God's righteous punishment and retribution for 'their' sins.

She was appointed a child advocate, and went to court to secure the right to the procedure over her father's objections (her mother was nowhere to be found). She won that right, but still the father refused to pay for it, and the state had no provisions to do so.

So my friend and I each contributed half the cost of the procedure, which the doctor generously agreed to perform at cost. It was the most humanistic charity money I have ever donated.

Counting all the system delays, she was a few weeks into her second trimester before her abortion could be performed. Had the law been as you have suggested, her obstructionist incestuous rapist father would have prevailed, and she would have had to bear, at the age of 14, a child conceived during her own incestuous rape. Such a thing could very well have destroyed her.

432 stuiec  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:46:15pm

re: #431 Salamantis

And if the system delays had extended a couple more weeks, and the fetus was viable? Would you have forced her to give birth to a child conceived by an incestuous rape?

Was this experience recent? Because as far as I know, abortion on demand in the first trimester is at present available to minor girl children all across the USA, without a court order, and there are a large number of clinics that will provide that service at low or no cost. I know for certain that's the case here in California.

433 SixDegrees  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:47:50pm

re: #185 IslandLibertarian

It's not about just yelling "The One is a SOCIALIST!" I may say that, but I will provide what I consider are the pieces of evidence to support my commentary.
"0" is a Socialist.
Gibson began by noting that Obama has indicated an intention to raise the capital gains tax rate, and reviewed recent history: the rate fell from 28% to 20% under Bill Clinton in 1997 and fell further to 15% under George W. Bush. Then he said, "And in each instance, when the rate dropped, revenues from the tax increased. The government took in more money. And in the 1980s, when the tax was increased to 28 percent, the revenues went down. So why raise it at all, especially given the fact that 100 million people in this country own stock and would be affected?"
After a brief hesitation, Obama began his response as follows: "Well, Charlie, what I've said is that I would look at raising the capital gains tax for purposes of fairness. We saw an article today which showed that the top 50 hedge fund managers made $29 billion last year -- $29 billion for 50 individuals. And part of what has happened is that those who are able to work the stock market and amass huge fortunes on capital gains are paying a lower tax rate than their secretaries. That's not fair."

I don't see how such a policy makes Obama a Socialist. It still makes him wrong, however.

He deliberately ignores the remaining 100 million people who own stocks, and no one makes mention of the people who own homes, whose sale is also subject to capital gains. If fairness is the goal, as Obama states, then there's a real simple solution: eliminate a separate capital gains tax altogether, and treat it as income unless the transaction is immediately used to purchase other securities or another home. In fact, this is pretty much the way home sales are treated in that you don't have to pay capital gains taxes if you roll your proceeds over into another home purchase of equal or greater value within some reasonably long period of time.

What you're trying to avoid is the very wealthy making most of their money off stock trades and paying an effective marginal tax rate of 15%, while the grunts emptying the waste basket are paying a rate of 28%. If capital gains are treated as simple income, proceeds on securities transactions would simply be added to your total income and taxed at whatever your marginal rate at that income level turned out to be.

And this year, at least, I'd be happy to use the same logic when it came to sales that lost money.

In terms of fairness, this is amply fair, to exactly the same extent as the income tax rates are fair.

434 Salamantis  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:57:31pm

re: #432 stuiec

And if the system delays had extended a couple more weeks, and the fetus was viable? Would you have forced her to give birth to a child conceived by an incestuous rape?

Was this experience recent? Because as far as I know, abortion on demand in the first trimester is at present available to minor girl children all across the USA, without a court order, and there are a large number of clinics that will provide that service at low or no cost. I know for certain that's the case here in California.

This was in Florida; the laws were different here.

As I mentioned before, the pregnancy was beyond the first trimester yet had not progressed to the midpoint of the second trimester, and had it done so, and reached fetal viability. I would reluctantly had to agree in a decision to force her to carry her pregnancy to term and bear her sibling child, even suspecting how that might devastate her. My position was outlined clearly; I'm not gonna traipse down the primrose path of playing the goalpost moving slippery slope game with you. Because it could be played in the other direction, to the point at which if the drunken incestuous rapist bastard had been hauled off of her a moment after climaxing, she could be denied a morning after pill.

Lines have to be drawn somewhere. That's what voting ages, and drinking ages, and statutory rape statutes, and age requirements for various elected offices, are all about. More leniency should, in my opinion, be granted women and girls who have been raped, incestuously or otherwise, than women who simply choose to end an unwanted pregnancy. But that slack should end at fetal viability, because at that point another life capable of independently living becomes an issue.

435 danrudy  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 12:15:16am

re: #434 Salamantis


Clearly what defines whether something is a life is not its viability. With advancing science one day fetal viability will be as soon as the egg is fertilized and it will be capable of living independently of the mothers uterus (albeit in a test tube).

436 Salamantis  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 12:59:14am

re: #435 danrudy

Clearly what defines whether something is a life is not its viability. With advancing science one day fetal viability will be as soon as the egg is fertilized and it will be capable of living independently of the mothers uterus (albeit in a test tube).

Right now, we could transfer zygotes to human broodmare wombs that passed tests for matching factors to forfend against antibody or RH factor rejection, if we paid them well enough to do it - or enslaved them. Or perhaps antiabortion women would put their wombs where their mouths are, and agree to take them on for free.

I, though, for one, do not want to see a technologically enhanced return to the Third Reich lebensborns (Google the term).

What is in dispute is not life, but personhood. If you equate an eight and a half month fetus with a freshly fertilized zygote you are well on your way to this:

And that is a sectarian religious definition of life, not a scientific one. And in fact, ther Bible states that preganacies are not ensouled until the 40th day for men and the 80th day for women (although I'm quite certain they lacked the ability to tell the difference back then). The Catholic Church, btw, did not take its hard line against abortion until the 19th century.

Up until fetal viability, we are not speaking of an actual person, or even a potential person, since fully a third of pregnancies are naturally aborted (miscarried), making God or Nature, whichever you prefer, far and away the planet's leading abortionist - which poses the question, if you choose the first altenative of whether a perfect God is rectifying a past mistake, or making a new one. What we are speaking of is a possible future person. And when the rights of a possible future person and the rights of an actually present person come into conflict, the rights of the latter must of logical necessity take moral precedence.

If abortion from the moment of conception is ever prohibited in Am,erica, I will become a nonprofit drug dealer, and the drug I will import and deal will be RU-486. It's the only ethical thing to do, if one truly believes in freedom - reproductive or otherwise.

I do not want to see us return to the days of back alley butchers, and coathangers, and knitting needles, and septic or bled out women rushed to emergency rooms or consigned to morgues. And women WILL resort to such horrific options, as they have by droves in the past. Women do not casually decide on vellious whims to seek abortions, as they might choose to try a new hair color at the salon; they agonize over such choices. And many who decide to end their pregnancies will do so by any means they can manage. They are as desperate as are animals who chew their own paws off to escape the steel jaws of traps.

437 SixDegrees  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 1:24:30am

re: #434 Salamantis

Lines have to be drawn somewhere. That's what voting ages, and drinking ages, and statutory rape statutes, and age requirements for various elected offices, are all about. More leniency should, in my opinion, be granted women and girls who have been raped, incestuously or otherwise, than women who simply choose to end an unwanted pregnancy. But that slack should end at fetal viability, because at that point another life capable of independently living becomes an issue.

I largely agree with this. But "fetal viability" itself is a moving goalpost that is being relentlessly pushed earlier and earlier in term by advances in medical knowledge and practice.

Probably best to simply state that the cutoff point is arbitrary and leave it at that. You're never going to convince the extremists on either side that their demands or that their own suggestions for cutoffs ("none" and "any at all") are unreasonable. Drinking and voting ages are similar; I know plenty of 16 year olds who are perfectly capable of voting, yet I know 40 year olds who probably shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a polling station. But we have to draw a line in the sand somewhere; it winds up excluding some and including others that it shouldn't, but proceeding on a case-by-case basis is untenable.

438 stuiec  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 1:27:21am

re: #434 Salamantis

This was in Florida; the laws were different here.

As I mentioned before, the pregnancy was beyond the first trimester yet had not progressed to the midpoint of the second trimester, and had it done so, and reached fetal viability. I would reluctantly had to agree in a decision to force her to carry her pregnancy to term and bear her sibling child, even suspecting how that might devastate her. My position was outlined clearly; I'm not gonna traipse down the primrose path of playing the goalpost moving slippery slope game with you. Because it could be played in the other direction, to the point at which if the drunken incestuous rapist bastard had been hauled off of her a moment after climaxing, she could be denied a morning after pill.

Lines have to be drawn somewhere. That's what voting ages, and drinking ages, and statutory rape statutes, and age requirements for various elected offices, are all about. More leniency should, in my opinion, be granted women and girls who have been raped, incestuously or otherwise, than women who simply choose to end an unwanted pregnancy. But that slack should end at fetal viability, because at that point another life capable of independently living becomes an issue.

Why would you force that girl to carry the fetus to term, if it was at the point of viability? Shouldn't she at that point have the right to have the fetus removed to take its chances in the neo-natal intensive care unit?

By the way, my wife is a registered nurse who at one time attended at medical abortions, many in the late second trimester. She might be better able to tell you that viability is a slippery slope in and of itself: is a 22-week fetus with a 10 percent chance of survival outside the womb viable? Or only one-tenth viable?

You want a bright line; I say the first trimester is a better bright line because the question of viability is far clearer then.

As for a religious question, how is declaring a viable yet unborn fetus a person with rights not a religious determination?

439 Jaded  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 4:05:14am

So you are proud to be USED to beat the RIGHT WING of the country about the head with? WOW what a difference a couple of years makes! SAD REALLY.

440 RexMundi  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 5:57:27am

And I applaud you, Charles, for rising above the lunacy that the Right has been exhibiting lately.

I have never been much of a Bush supporter, (would take him over Gore or Kerry easily, however) but I readily and constantly defended him against the baseless and nutty claims that the looney Left was spitting out all over. I always said "if Bush is truly as stupid/evil/incompetent as you make him out to be, then just argue against his policies head-on and work towards getting him voted out." That is the way the Right should meet Obama's policies. If you disagree with Obama, point out the flaws in his thinking, offer up an alternative, explain and educate on why you have a better plan.

The Right and Left are trading places. The Left was disintegrated and crazy, now it is galvanized and strong--while the Right is crumbling and following idiotic ideas. Don't make the same mistakes!

441 flyovercountry  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:17:39am

Just an open question, is it wrong in your opinion to want President to fail in his attempt to enact his agenda? I believe that President Obama's policies, as stated in his campaign would be disastrous for the country. Is this equated with his personal failure? I did not vote for Obama, not because of some hate filled ideology, but because I vehemently disagreed with his politics. Now that he is President, I believe that his politics are still just plain wrong.

442 ducktrapper  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:30:33am

There's nothing wrong in wanting President Obama's policies to fail. There is nothing wrong in hoping he falls on his butt, hits his head and wakes up with it removed from his fundament. He is starting to make Jimmeh Carteh look smarteh. Inasmuch as Carter could be a retard [I]without[/I] a teleprompter.

443 danrudy  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:31:48am
Up until fetal viability, we are not speaking of an actual person, or even a potential person, since fully a third of pregnancies are naturally aborted (miscarried), making God or Nature, whichever you prefer, far and away the planet's leading abortionist - which poses the question, if you choose the first altenative of whether a perfect God is rectifying a past mistake, or making a new one. What we are speaking of is a possible future person.

Possible future person?
How about a normally developing (not fully developed ) human being.
While I love Monty Python the fact is that when the parent's DNA combine into a NEW and unique DNA a normally developing human is formed. Clearly it is different then any other cell sitting in the mother. IT is not like a sloughing skin cell.
This notion of "personhood" is dangerous. When we try to define what makes a person we devalue life. Is an debilitated elderly person or a severely retarded individual equal with regard to their "personhood" as a healthy 25 year old? Why do you consider an 8 1/2 month old fetus with a fresh zygote? Why not compare him to a 7 year old child? Have they attained the same level of "personhood"?

For me there is no need to bring religious arguments here since I tend to disagree with them as well. When we arbitrarily attempt to define what constitutes "a viable life" or "personhood" we are stuck with moving targets. The Nazi's (I didn't need to google Lebensborn) were able to accomplish much of what they did simply because they redefined the personhood of Jews, elderly, handicapped etc.

The bottom line to me (and what has driven my position) has always been that reasonable people are going to disagree for various reasons and motivations on this topic. However, when talking about a topic with the finality of an abortion it seems that the sane course of action is to err on the side of being conservative until we have definitive information. The consequence of being wrong and finding out that we "inadvertently" killed millions of humans is far greater then the inconvenience (or even horror) of children being born into suboptimal circumstances. As a society, I think we are better protecting even the weakest among us.

444 Simply Me  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:39:33am

I like this quote from Charles in the Harry's Place post:

I didn’t spend the last eight years denouncing the Democrats for wanting President Bush to fail, just to turn around and do the same thing to Barack Obama.


That is how I feel. I have seen this craziness on the left here in Berkeley for the last eight years and thought it was unpatriotic. I hate to see "my side" stoop to the same level.

445 Land Shark  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:58:58am

There's no question the "Right" in the US is in turmoil right now, but sometimes such conflicts are necessary in order for a movement to emerge. Especially after the '06 and '08 electoral defeats. I don't believe we will all agree on everything but I'm convinced some sort of a consensus will emerge by the 2010 Congressional elections. I guess we'll see.

Let's not forget the Left was demoralized and in turmoil after the '04 election, but they got it together and united over their intense dislike of Bush. Without ceasing their moonbat ranting, by the way. In my opinion, that offers a potential template for us. Barrack Obama is popular because the media continuously covers up his incompetence and lies. The Tea Parties are a sign that there is a simmering discontent. I'm encouraged by the fact that in spite of the fears of many, white supremacists and Leftists were not able to hijack them for the most part. While they are nominally non-partisan, it's obvious there is a strong conservative base to them, their strong "anti taxes" message is evidence of this. The MSM is doing their damnedest to smear the participants and play down their effect but it's obvious there's a genuine grassroots movement starting to happen. I guess time will tell how it develops.

They are the first step, in my opinion, to tearing down the wall of illusion and lies that surrounds the Messiah. Yes, I think we need more attacks on Obama, not less. There are a lot of real reasons to skewer Obama without resorting to birth certificate or other such nonsense. Every time there's a disconnect between what Obama says and what the Democrats do it must be pointed out. It worked well for the Left and there is far more about Obama that needs to be exposed.

It's going to take time to expose this fraud of a President, but we have the truth on our side. We must have patience and be persistent. It won't be easy, but it can be done.

By the way, somebody advise Harry's Place that Bush was not defeated. John McCain was the loser in the '08 election.

And once again, thanks to Charles for keeping this place a bastion of Intelligent Conservatism. If a winning Conservative movement is going to emerge, we can't be wasting our time of birth certificate non-sense. And teaching ID creationism is public schools is a loser, not just for Conservatives but for education in our country. Focus, people, focus.

446 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 8:43:27am

re: #439 Jaded

Registered since: Nov 17, 2008 at 6:28 pm
No. of comments posted: 15
No. of links posted: 0

Bye now! Take care.

447 ducktrapper  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:20:05am

When I was heavily involved in union work, I used to get in trouble for criticizing my employer, the Canadian federal government. Did I want Canada to fail? No but any tiny role I could play in defeating a megolamaniac manager or one of his stupider policies was relished. Manager, mayor, president? When it comes to idiotic policies, what difference does it make? I do have some notion of respect for the position and not the suit but that only goes so far, in inverse proportion to the danger of letting him have his way.

448 Salamantis  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 1:03:00pm

re: #443 danrudy

Possible future person?
How about a normally developing (not fully developed ) human being.
While I love Monty Python the fact is that when the parent's DNA combine into a NEW and unique DNA a normally developing human is formed. Clearly it is different then any other cell sitting in the mother. IT is not like a sloughing skin cell.


>
Appealing to unique DNA is establishing a chemical definition of life.
>
This notion of "personhood" is dangerous. When we try to define what makes a person we devalue life. Is an debilitated elderly person or a severely retarded individual equal with regard to their "personhood" as a healthy 25 year old? Why do you consider an 8 1/2 month old fetus with a fresh zygote? Why not compare him to a 7 year old child? Have they attained the same level of "personhood"?

An 8 1/2 month old fetus is viable ouside the womb. It is a helluva lot closer to personhood than is a single-celled fresh zygote.

For me there is no need to bring religious arguments here since I tend to disagree with them as well. When we arbitrarily attempt to define what constitutes "a viable life" or "personhood" we are stuck with moving targets. The Nazi's (I didn't need to google Lebensborn) were able to accomplish much of what they did simply because they redefined the personhood of Jews, elderly, handicapped etc.

There can be no rational comparison between born human beings (Jews, elderly, handicapped, etc.) and incompletely gestated zygotes and embryos.

The bottom line to me (and what has driven my position) has always been that reasonable people are going to disagree for various reasons and motivations on this topic. However, when talking about a topic with the finality of an abortion it seems that the sane course of action is to err on the side of being conservative until we have definitive information. The consequence of being wrong and finding out that we "inadvertently" killed millions of humans is far greater then the inconvenience (or even horror) of children being born into suboptimal circumstances. As a society, I think we are better protecting even the weakest among us.

The difference between a potential person and a possible future person is that the word 'potential' carries with it the connotative baggage that such a potential will inevitably be actualized in the natural course of events. But this is manifestly not the case, when fully a third of preganacies spontaneously abort. Committed women will go to extreme lengths in order to avoid bringing an unwanted pregnancy to term; are you suggesting that we warp their wombs into jails by imprisoning them under restraints for the duration of their pregnancies?

Nice way to protect the 'weaker' sex.

449 WoodstockDave  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 3:22:16pm

If you don't want Obama to fail

- at remaking our economy, moving away from capitalism and towards more government control,

- at weakening our national security by rolling back the efforts of President Bush during the last seven years,

- to increase the federal budget to nearly $4 trillion per year, with trillion-dollar deficits for the foreseeable future,

then you aren't a conservative and the GOP really doesn't need your "help" in moving the party forward.

450 danrudy  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 11:10:58pm

re: #448 Salamantis

Appealing to unique DNA is establishing a chemical definition of life.


The point is that there is a difference between a skin cell and a clump of cells with a unique DNA separate from the parents. Something new has been created. To pretend it is merely more replicating cells in ones body is silly.

There can be no rational comparison between born human beings (Jews, elderly, handicapped, etc.) and incompletely gestated zygotes and embryos


Of course there can be a rational comparison. You yourself have an arbitrary cut off date during the second trimester. Are you saying that at 17 weeks there can be no rational comparison but at 23 weeks there can be? What is the reason you are against abortion in the mid second trimester on if not because you are comparing the incompletely gestated embryo and born human beings?

The difference between a potential person and a possible future person is that the word 'potential' carries with it the connotative baggage that such a potential will inevitably be actualized in the natural course of events. But this is manifestly not the case, when fully a third of pregnancies spontaneously abort.

Wow...that is a reach! What difference does it make if even 50% were to spontaneously abort. Are you going to predict which ones are "good " pregnancies" and which are bad pregnancies"? Since you can not predict which are the bad ones, ALL the pregnancies in your definition at the onset are "possible" AND "potential" humans. Further, potential simply carries with it the connotation of potential. No one said it is definite. There are no guarantees in life.
You have the potential of reaching old age or developing cancer or dying from a stroke.If science could predict which humans would get cancer and not live to a ripe old age would you advocate killing them in utero since they will not reach their full potential? What if you were wrong and ended up killing some of the ones that would have realized their potential. Would you feel a little remorse? I would.

Committed women will go to extreme lengths in order to avoid bringing an unwanted pregnancy to term; are you suggesting that we warp their wombs into jails by imprisoning them under restraints for the duration of their pregnancies?

I am not suggesting anything of the sort. We are merely discussing whether or not we think abortion is a good or bad idea. Clearly we both think it is a bad idea but e are disagreeing on when it the pregnancy and under what circumstances it becomes a bad idea. If we were to agree that abortion was a bad idea then we can discuss how to prevent them. Using your example of imprisoning a women with restraints, is that what you are advocating for women who wish to abort the midpoint of the 2nd trimester whose lives are not in danger? That is what you advocated? How would you enforce that? with restraints?

Nice way to protect the 'weaker' sex


I wasn't referring to women when I talked about society protecting the weakest among us. I was referring to the unborn child with no voice at all as the weakest among us who needs protecting. You yourself dont think an 8 month old fetus should be aborted. Why not? does it have some right to live? I think we would agree that it is a pretty weak member of society that needs protecting. Much like the mentally handicapped or the debilitated someone needs to speak on their behalf.

451 Salamantis  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 11:56:15pm

re: #450 danrudy

The point is that there is a difference between a skin cell and a clump of cells with a unique DNA separate from the parents. Something new has been created. To pretend it is merely more replicating cells in ones body is silly.

To pretend it's a person is even sillier.

Of course there can be a rational comparison. You yourself have an arbitrary cut off date during the second trimester. Are you saying that at 17 weeks there can be no rational comparison but at 23 weeks there can be? What is the reason you are against abortion in the mid second trimester on if not because you are comparing the incompletely gestated embryo and born human beings?

Simple; that's when the fetus has a reasonable chance of surviving independently of its mother. It's a matter of gradualism; the longer a pregnancy gestates, from zygote through embryo to fetus, the more it cones to resemble a born infant. The point at which it has a reasonable chances of survival outside the womb is, for me, a bright line; a mean between the two spectral extremes of conception on the extreme antiabortion side and birth on the extreme abortion rights side.

Wow...that is a reach! What difference does it make if even 50% were to spontaneously abort. Are you going to predict which ones are "good " pregnancies" and which are bad pregnancies"? Since you can not predict which are the bad ones, ALL the pregnancies in your definition at the onset are "possible" AND "potential" humans. Further, potential simply carries with it the connotation of potential. No one said it is definite. There are no guarantees in life.

Even if the chances of a pregnancy being naturally carried to term were greater than the 67% that they in fact are, the rights of the 100% already present human life would logically take moral precedence.

You have the potential of reaching old age or developing cancer or dying from a stroke. If science could predict which humans would get cancer and not live to a ripe old age would you advocate killing them in utero since they will not reach their full potential? What if you were wrong and ended up killing some of the ones that would have realized their potential. Would you feel a little remorse? I would.

Now YOU are stretching. I never said a thing about doing such a thing. But in fact many fetuses are aborted at the mother's request following amniocentesis, when it is discovered that they are Down's Syndrome. I will neither criticize Sarah Palin for knowingly giving birth to a Down's Syndrome child, or another woman for deciding to abort a Down's Syndrome fetus. I am opposed to sex selection abortions. And it might soon be possible to fetally test for homosexuality; I would be opposed to sexual orientation selection abortions as well.

I am not suggesting anything of the sort. We are merely discussing whether or not we think abortion is a good or bad idea. Clearly we both think it is a bad idea but we are disagreeing on when it the pregnancy and under what circumstances it becomes a bad idea. If we were to agree that abortion was a bad idea then we can discuss how to prevent them. Using your example of imprisoning a women with restraints, is that what you are advocating for women who wish to abort the midpoint of the 2nd trimester whose lives are not in danger? That is what you advocated? How would you enforce that? with restraints?

Abortions should be safe, legal, and rare. If a woman does attempt to abort a viable fetus in the absence of a danger to her life or severe hazards to her physical health (brain damage, paralysis, etc.), she should have to incur a legal penalty for that, and so should any doctor who assists her. But since 90% of abortions are performed during the first trimester, and 3/4 of the rest before fetal viability, and most of the rest due to such threats, this would be rare.

452 danrudy  Tue, Apr 21, 2009 1:11:37am
Simple; that's when the fetus has a reasonable chance of surviving independently of its mother. It's a matter of gradualism; the longer a pregnancy gestates, from zygote through embryo to fetus, the more it cones to resemble a born infant. The point at which it has a reasonable chances of survival outside the womb is, for me, a bright line;.

No fetus has a reasonable chance of surviving independent of its mother. ZERO! It requires care, being fed etc in order for it to reach its potential. It REQUIRES being card for. Thus, how is a newborn more "independent" then an 7 month fetus versus a 18 week fetus? None are independent and all require care. It is just a matter of degree.
The idea of a "reasonable" chance of survival outside the womb then implies that a societies technology defines what is a person or life. Are you saying that a preemie born in the USA has a higher degree of "personhood" and rights then a premie born in Kenya because they have a much higher chance of survival outside the womb since our technology dwarfs theirs?
Something is either a unique life and potential person or it isn't. A skin cell isnt and zygote is. We shouldnt let our technology define what is or isnt a life.

Even if the chances of a pregnancy being naturally carried to term were greater than the 67% that they in fact are, the rights of the 100% already present human life would logically take moral precedence.


If you are talking about the mothers life being in danger and taking precedence over her fetus. I agree. But, I am not sure what other instances you are conjuring . What do you mean the100% present human would logically take precedence? Are you saying the 100% present mother can decide to arbitrarily abort her 67% present fetus? You need to clarify what you meant with this statement to me. My numbers were simply meant to demonstrate that we cannot predict if a fetus will live or die. We can't abort them under the assumption that they might have been one of the ones that may have spontaneously aborted if we didnt hasten it along. On the contrary, we need to assume that all fetuses have a chance at being one of the 67% that do not abort and would have made it to term.

But in fact many fetuses are aborted at the mother's request following amniocentesis, when it is discovered that they are Down's Syndrome. I will neither criticize Sarah Palin for knowingly giving birth to a Down's Syndrome child, or another woman for deciding to abort a Down's Syndrome fetus.


Well, you should!
Does a Down syndrome child not have a right to life? What is the objection? They arent' smart enough? What if you could test to see if your kids IQ was above or under 130. I only want smart kids so I would abort if it were under 130. That's ok by you? If your objection is that it also has medical implications am I to assume then you would be ok aborting if the child has a club foot or Cerebral palsy but normal intelligence? Why do you oppose aborting if you find out your kid is a homosexual or if he isn't a boy? Isn't life tougher for homosexuals and women?
I will tell you that my wifes decision NOT to have amniocentesis on any of our 3 girls (who were all born after my wife was 35) made me nervous but extremely proud of her. Her reasoning was that having a Downs child was not going to make her abort but the thought of inadvertently losing a pregnancy from the risk (1-2%) of the amnio filled her with more dread then an imperfect child. Thankfully, all our girls are healthy. I am aware that amnio screens for other things but she didnt want to even have the unnecessary 1-2% risk.

To pretend it's a person is even sillier.


It is a normally developing person. Before an adult is 6ft tall he has to be 3 ft tall. Before that he has to be 2 ft tall. Before that he is 1 inch tall etc. It is called normal growth. We arent born fully developed

453 Salamantis  Tue, Apr 21, 2009 3:14:05am

re: #452 danrudy

No fetus has a reasonable chance of surviving independent of its mother. ZERO! It requires care, being fed etc in order for it to reach its potential. It REQUIRES being card for. Thus, how is a newborn more "independent" then an 7 month fetus versus a 18 week fetus? None are independent and all require care. It is just a matter of degree.

Because a newborn can be cared for by just about any capable person, but a pre-viable fetus depends upon its umbilical connection to its mother for life. That is a matter od essence, not degree. Sheesh!

The idea of a "reasonable" chance of survival outside the womb then implies that a societies technology defines what is a person or life. Are you saying that a preemie born in the USA has a higher degree of "personhood" and rights then a premie born in Kenya because they have a much higher chance of survival outside the womb since our technology dwarfs theirs?

And now you pull in the leftist tactic of ethical relativism. The medical standards of Kenya should not decide ethical standards in the US.

Something is either a unique life and potential person or it isn't. A skin cell isnt and zygote is. We shouldnt let our technology define what is or isnt a life.

Possible persopnhood ain't potential personhood. But actual personhood morally trumps both.

If you are talking about the mothers life being in danger and taking precedence over her fetus. I agree. But, I am not sure what other instances you are conjuring . What do you mean the100% present human would logically take precedence? Are you saying the 100% present mother can decide to arbitrarily abort her 67% present fetus? You need to clarify what you meant with this statement to me.

It's si9mple, and I have stated it clearly and unequivocally before; A 100% presently alive woman's rights must take moral precedence over her 67% likely to survive without spontaneous abortion fetus.

My numbers were simply meant to demonstrate that we cannot predict if a fetus will live or die. We can't abort them under the assumption that they might have been one of the ones that may have spontaneously aborted if we didnt hasten it along. On the contrary, we need to assume that all fetuses have a chance at being one of the 67% that do not abort and would have made it to term.

But with the mother, no prediction is necessary; she is ALREADY a living, breathing, self-consciously aware person, complete with an individual history and social bonds. And you're willing to place her in bondage for a clump of cells that might not even make it to natural birth. How RATONAL of you!

Well, you should!
Does a Down syndrome child not have a right to life? What is the objection? They arent' smart enough? What if you could test to see if your kids IQ was above or under 130. I only want smart kids so I would abort if it were under 130. That's ok by you? If your objection is that it also has medical implications am I to assume then you would be ok aborting if the child has a club foot or Cerebral palsy but normal intelligence? Why do you oppose aborting if you find out your kid is a homosexual or if he isn't a boy? Isn't life tougher for homosexuals and women?

Thee are no fetal IQ tests available, and none on the horizon. These are straw men that I will not allow you to gratuitously insert. Would you want a vegetable child born with an IQ of zero? And club feet are surgically correctable, while people with cerebral palsy are as intelligent as the rest of us and can conduct productive and fulfilling lives. Nor is there a fetal test for it. What if a fetus would be born with total mobility paralysis? Would you wish that on it? And what if it would be born with no sensory inputs at all - no sight, no sound, no smell, no taste, no touch; would you demand such a fetus be carried to term?

to be continued...

454 Salamantis  Tue, Apr 21, 2009 3:33:47am

continued...

Neither womanhood nor homosexuality would be such a burden on the child as would total paralysis or total sensory deprivation. Are you so dogmmatically insane as to be unwilling to draw any distinctions whatsoever?

I will tell you that my wifes decision NOT to have amniocentesis on any of our 3 girls (who were all born after my wife was 35) made me nervous but extremely proud of her. Her reasoning was that having a Downs child was not going to make her abort but the thought of inadvertently losing a pregnancy from the risk (1-2%) of the amnio filled her with more dread then an imperfect child. Thankfully, all our girls are healthy. I am aware that amnio screens for other things but she didnt want to even have the unnecessary 1-2% risk.

So she and you rolled the dice, fearing that 1-2%, and willing to risk Down's syndrome children. You have that choice, and that right - and others have the right to choose differently, and to act upon the information they receive in the manner that is personally appropriate to them.

It is a normally developing person. Before an adult is 6ft tall he has to be 3 ft tall. Before that he has to be 2 ft tall. Before that he is 1 inch tall etc. It is called normal growth. We arent born fully developed.

Yeah,yeah, yeah...and before we contain trillions of cells, there is a single cell, then two, then four, that ain't a person...oops; condemn God; he aborted it before it got born.

Only in totalitarianisms and theocracies are all of our actions either mandated or forbidden; in a constitutional democracy, we are allowed to choose between a panoply of options, and others are allowed to make their own choices, including choices that we would not ourselves make. But that's okay, because they are THEIR choices, and not ours. It's called individual freedom. Deal with it.

But I've got your fucking number; you wanna demand that everyone be forced to live by YOUR particular morals, no matter what they do or do not desire for themselves. Ain't a gonna happen. You aren't a God or a King, although you may magalomaniacally wish to be, and you cannot strip the rest of humanity of their personal, private choices, and coerce them to only act in ways that will please you. That power is forever denied you. Your family can choose not to undergo amniocentesis, and not to abort, but for other families, you cannot, and by all that is holy, should not be able to choose these things.

The world is not a perfect, or even a theoretically perfectable, place. We all do the best we can with what we've got according to our own best judgment. And, most thankfully, not according to yours.

Al;, people should have all freedoms that do not infringe upon the freedoms of others, and where inevitable conflicts between competing freedoms arise, they should be resolved by equal and proportional compromise, which is what I originally suggested. Your moral mandate ends where other peoples' personal reproductive choices begin. Get used to it.

455 danrudy  Tue, Apr 21, 2009 7:35:26am
Because a newborn can be cared for by just about any capable person, but a pre-viable fetus depends upon its umbilical connection to its mother for life. That is a matter od essence, not degree. Sheesh!


SHEESH is right...are you being obtuse on purpose?
the "matter of degree" I am referring to is that in fact, Fetuses previously thought to be non-viable are suddenly viable without a connection to their mother because of advancing science. In a few years it may be possible to raise a baby from a fertilized egg in a test tube without an umbilical connection to its mother. This fertilized egg in a test tube is completely dependent on others for its survival just like a newborn baby is dependent. The "degree" I refer to i refer to is how much help it requires. Does it simply require to be fed and bathed or does it require its test tube solution to have proper pH and nutrient environment maintained. CLearly both die without any outside help and neither are "independent". The degree of dependency is different.

And now you pull in the leftist tactic of ethical relativism. The medical standards of Kenya should not decide ethical standards in the US.


Again...you avoid (or miss ) the point (on purpose?)
You are defining a life/personhood based upon its "reasonable chance of survival" outside the womb. I am pointing out that this "reasonable" chance differs from society to society based upon technology of that society. Thus our 20 week old fetus had more "rights and personhood" then theirs in your argument. I am not in favor of this and you apparently are. My point is that there should be ONE STANDARD of what defines a life independent of your "reasonable chance of survival" litmus test since using your standard, life is more valuable in developed countries whereas in technologically lagging countries you are OK with aborting fetuses who otherwise would have survived in the USA.


It's si9mple, and I have stated it clearly and unequivocally before; A 100% presently alive woman's rights must take moral precedence over her 67% likely to survive without spontaneous abortion fetus.


SO why pretend to have a cut off in the middle of the 3rd trimester. A 100% mother should also trump the rights of her 99% chance of surviving 38 week old fetus. In that case why can't she abort a 38 weeker? There is a small chance that a 38 week old fetus will also spontaneously die in utero.
100>99 and thus should morally take precedence.
Your argument completely disrupts you whole position! No fetus has a 100% survival rate at any point in pregnancy. You would seem to also be in favor of very late term abortions as the mother takes oral precedence.
What you have stated clearly and unequivocally is completely contradictory to your own position.

Neither womanhood nor homosexuality would be such a burden on the child as would total paralysis or total sensory deprivation. Are you so dogmmatically insane as to be unwilling to draw any distinctions whatsoever?


You wish to play god and I don't. You wish to say that a Downs child life is less valuable then mine. I don't agree. Are you so dogmatically insane as to be unwilling to recognize the parallels with decisions made by the Nazi's about the mentally feeble? THese are the weakest we need to protect.
I believe there are conditions that I would agree to abort. But my line in the sand is much tougher then yours. I am talking about anencephally and fetuses who would die at or close to birth whom we dont have the means , et, to save them. THis might cause undo suffering. But we are talking about extremes. I hardly think that Downs qualifies as an extreme. Because, that is a very very slippery slope leading. And if you dont think people will be aborting based upon sexual preference or even if failed attempts to genetically engineer the eye color of their child you aren't paying attention.
to be continued

456 danrudy  Tue, Apr 21, 2009 8:08:22am

continued

So she and you rolled the dice


All pregnancies roll the dice. The odds are just different each time

Al;, people should have all freedoms that do not infringe upon the freedoms of others, and where inevitable conflicts between competing freedoms arise, they should be resolved by equal and proportional compromise, which is what I originally suggested. Your moral mandate ends where other peoples' personal reproductive choices begin. Get used to it.

SO again I ask you...why are you against aborting 33 weekers if that is the mother's moral choice?

Only in totalitarianism's and theocracies are all of our actions either mandated or forbidden; in a constitutional democracy, we are allowed to choose between a panoply of options, and others are allowed to make their own choices, including choices that we would not ourselves make. But that's okay, because they are THEIR choices, and not ours. It's called individual freedom. Deal with it.

But I've got your fucking number; you wanna demand that everyone be forced to live by YOUR particular morals, no matter what they do or do not desire for themselves.

Holy crap, talk about resorting to the arguments of the angry left. My position is one of dictator?
You may not want to accept this but our positions are exactly the same. You just want to make up some arbitrary starting date (mid 2rd trimester) upon which time you can start forcing people to live by "your particular morals" etc.
For the record... I am not dictating or forcing anyone to do anything. Democracy has laws decided upon by the people and dictates the options open to them. However, the way I thought it was suppose to work was that people discuss positions and sway the others opinion and then when enough people are swayed and agree they decide if they want to make it a law. No one is advocating legislating from the bench the way the left does. I do favor people collectively deciding what moral standard they want their society to have and if needed legislate it.
I thought the purpose of our discussion ( at least for me) was me pointing out why I thought your position was hypocritical and inconsistent and you pointing out to me why mine was to draconian (or visa versa..lol)


The world is not a perfect, or even a theoretically perfectable, place. We all do the best we can with what we've got according to our own best judgment. And, most thankfully, not according to yours.


Of course, you have no problem forbidding the label of marriage to gay unions, keeping immigrants from entering our space and employers from hiring them, teaching ID in schools. (all positions I agree with) However, are you engaging in any more or less totalitarianism or theocracy then you accuse me of with regard to the other issue?

I am not trying to force you to do anything. I am pointing out that (i believe) your position is inconsistent and hypocritical and I am trying to show you the consequence of following it to its conclusion. You are expected to do the same. I am not trying to be insulting so perhaps you can be a little less angry during this discussion.

457 Salamantis  Tue, Apr 21, 2009 10:01:26pm

re: #455 danrudy

SHEESH is right...are you being obtuse on purpose?
the "matter of degree" I am referring to is that in fact, Fetuses previously thought to be non-viable are suddenly viable without a connection to their mother because of advancing science. In a few years it may be possible to raise a baby from a fertilized egg in a test tube without an umbilical connection to its mother. This fertilized egg in a test tube is completely dependent on others for its survival just like a newborn baby is dependent. The "degree" I refer to i refer to is how much help it requires. Does it simply require to be fed and bathed or does it require its test tube solution to have proper pH and nutrient environment maintained. CLearly both die without any outside help and neither are "independent". The degree of dependency is different.

You cynically and gratuitously evade the issue by invoking independence in general, rather than the specific independence from the mother that is at issue in fetal viability, and appeal to an imagined sci-fi future in which people are cultivated in baby farms, a la The Matrix. In fact, fetuses are NOT surviving independently of their mothers earlier than they did a few years ago; the process seems to have hit a fetal development wall, such that without a certain degree of development in the womb, medical science is so far unable to get fetuses to survive outside it. And this wall is showing no signs of crumbling. Which makes the bright line of fetal viability at the midpoint of the second trimester pragmatically valid.

Again...you avoid (or miss ) the point (on purpose?)
You are defining a life/personhood based upon its "reasonable chance of survival" outside the womb. I am pointing out that this "reasonable" chance differs from society to society based upon technology of that society. Thus our 20 week old fetus had more "rights and personhood" then theirs in your argument. I am not in favor of this and you apparently are. My point is that there should be ONE STANDARD of what defines a life independent of your "reasonable chance of survival" litmus test since using your standard, life is more valuable in developed countries whereas in technologically lagging countries you are OK with aborting fetuses who otherwise would have survived in the USA.

No, my point is that we are discussing legislation for the United States of America, not Kenya or Haiti or Timbuktu, and in the best interests of the citizens of the United States of America- period. Other nations have to write their own laws; they don't write laws for us, and we don't write laws for them. The UN isn't yet the boss of all of us, nor do we yet have a one world government superseding national sovereignty.

SO why pretend to have a cut off in the middle of the 3rd trimester. A 100% mother should also trump the rights of her 99% chance of surviving 38 week old fetus. In that case why can't she abort a 38 weeker? There is a small chance that a 38 week old fetus will also spontaneously die in utero.
100>99 and thus should morally take precedence.
Your argument completely disrupts you whole position! No fetus has a 100% survival rate at any point in pregnancy. You would seem to also be in favor of very late term abortions as the mother takes moral precedence.
What you have stated clearly and unequivocally is completely contradictory to your own position.

You are tendentiously attempting to confuse and conflate the rate of spontaneous abortion with the gestational point at which fetal viability occurs; I won't let you get away with that. The fact that spontaneous abortion occurs is an additional but not essential support for the position that the rights of the actual 100% present woman should take moral precedence; fetal viability is the point at which we can say that we are talking not about one person, but about two, as the fetus can survive independent of the mother.

458 Salamantis  Tue, Apr 21, 2009 10:25:09pm

re: #455 danrudy

You wish to play god and I don't. You wish to say that a Downs child life is less valuable then mine. I don't agree. Are you so dogmatically insane as to be unwilling to recognize the parallels with decisions made by the Nazi's about the mentally feeble? THese are the weakest we need to protect.

No, it is YOU who wants to morph the Federal Government into God's Enforcing Arm, by having it mandate that individual families be stripped of their choice as to whether or not to bnring their own Down's Syndrome child into the world. I am the one who is standing foursquare for individual freedom, and the right of the famlies personally concerned to make such a decision. Forcing these women to bear such children against their will is just as totalitarian as preventing them from bearing them against their will would be. The correlative opposite extremism to radical antiabortionism is not reproductive choice, as we see in America, but but state-mandated abortion, as is seen in Communist China.

I believe there are conditions that I would agree to abort. But my line in the sand is much tougher then yours. I am talking about anencephally and fetuses who would die at or close to birth whom we dont have the means , et, to save them. THis might cause undo suffering. But we are talking about extremes. I hardly think that Downs qualifies as an extreme. Because, that is a very very slippery slope leading. And if you dont think people will be aborting based upon sexual preference or even if failed attempts to genetically engineer the eye color of their child you aren't paying attention.

Your line in the sand would revoke the right of women to terminate their pregnancies in the first trimester, because some of these conditions cannot be detected that early. You place equal value on an adult woman and a single celled zygote, and I find such a stance to be unconscionable.

Some people will try to do such things as you suggest (sex selection abortions), but just because people will attempt to circumvent a law's provisions doesn't mean that the law is not a good one. And prior to birth, there is no way to determine eye color, absent DNA sequencing. Slippery slope arguments are ingerently disingenuous; you might as well try to ban scratching one's genitals when they itch because it might lead to masturbation.

re: #456 danrudy

SO again I ask you...why are you against aborting 33 weekers if that is the mother's moral choice?

Because once fetal viability is reached, we are not speaking of one person, but two. That is when we can credibly grant the fetus rights that come into conflict with the right of the mother to personal reproductive choice.

Holy crap, talk about resorting to the arguments of the angry left. My position is one of dictator?

You may not want to accept this but our positions are exactly the same. You just want to make up some arbitrary starting date (mid 2rd trimester) upon which time you can start forcing people to live by "your particular morals" etc.

Nope; the middle of the second trimester is anything but an 'arbitrary' date, because that is when fetal viability becomes an issue. You must have cognitive Star Trek shields on full power in order to willfully fail to comprehend the date's developmental significance.

459 Salamantis  Tue, Apr 21, 2009 10:51:31pm

re: #456 danrudy

For the record... I am not dictating or forcing anyone to do anything. Democracy has laws decided upon by the people and dictates the options open to them. However, the way I thought it was suppose to work was that people discuss positions and sway the others opinion and then when enough people are swayed and agree they decide if they want to make it a law. No one is advocating legislating from the bench the way the left does. I do favor people collectively deciding what moral standard they want their society to have and if needed legislate it.

There are some cases in which majority vote is majority tyranny, a ratification of the majority's bigotries, discriminations, and prejudices, and a legal oppression of a popularly disliked minority - something that the Bill of Rights was enacted to forfend against. Do you really think that segregation and Jim Crow, as unjust as they were, would have been overthrown by popular vote in the absence of federal action? And would it be just or fair for ten people on a desert island to vote on whether or not to kill and eat one of their members if nine of them were members of a cannibal tribe?

However, as it now stands, and has with little change for many years, a clear national majority is in favor of keeping abortion legal in some form. It makes no sense to me to have a patchwork of states where it is either permitted or forbidden, and telling women in the forbidden states that if they don't like it, move; it would be state by state unequal and discriminatory treatment.

I thought the purpose of our discussion ( at least for me) was me pointing out why I thought your position was hypocritical and inconsistent and you pointing out to me why mine was to draconian (or visa versa..lol)

Well you have failed to point out any hypocrisy in my position, but forbidding abortions altogether (for all practical purposes, with exceptions few and far between) would indeed be draconian, and lead to horrible consequences.

Of course, you have no problem forbidding the label of marriage to gay unions, keeping immigrants from entering our space and employers from hiring them, teaching ID in schools. (all positions I agree with) However, are you engaging in any more or less totalitarianism or theocracy then you accuse me of with regard to the other issue?

When gays can receive the selfsame rights and privileges via civil unions that straights can receive via marriage, there is no substantial discrimination against them. You very well know that I was referring to ILLEGAL immigrants, who are not citizens of this country and who violate its laws by the very manner of their entry; I have no problems whatsoever with LEGAL immigrants living here and working at any legitimate job for which employers are willing to hire them. Teaching sectarian religious dogma in high school science class not only unconstitutionally favors the dogmas of some religions over the dogmas of others and violates the constitutional rights of people whose religious beliefs or nonbeliefs do not agree, it is as absurd as would be teaching Communism in shop class. If people want their kids to be taught religious dogma, they can homeschool them, or send them to sectarian religious schools, or to sunday school and church. If ANY religious dogmas are taught in public schools, ALL of them must be, and the class should be called comparative religion class, not science class. So your accusations of theocracy or totalitarianism against me in an attempt to equate your own theocratic desire to ban abortions with my positions on these other issues is a flawed and failed exercise in illegitimate relativism.

460 Salamantis  Tue, Apr 21, 2009 10:59:11pm

re: #456 danrudy

I am not trying to force you to do anything. I am pointing out that (i believe) your position is inconsistent and hypocritical and I am trying to show you the consequence of following it to its conclusion. You are expected to do the same. I am not trying to be insulting so perhaps you can be a little less angry during this discussion.

But you would prevent a woman who just got pregnant from taking a morning after pill - that is the conclusion to which your absolutist antiabortion positon necessarily leads. It also leads to back alley abortions, and to septic and bled out women filling hospital ER rooms and morgues. You may self-servingly believe what you wish in defence of such a totalitarian position; I have demonstrated that my position is not either inconsistent or hypocritical, but your position is indeed draconian, and in fact is a collectivist governmental intrusion upon the rights of individual woman and families to make the most personal and private of decisions for themselves. And if I seem a bit angry, it is because employing totalitarian means for oppressive theocratic ends offends my ethical sensibilities.


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