Here’s Skeptic Magazine publisher Michael Shermer, with a great presentation at the University of California, San Diego, based on his book, Why Darwin Matters: The Case Against Intelligent Design.
(Hat tip: Thanos.)
1 |
Dianna Thu, May 14, 2009 3:09:37pm |
Charles, it's not fair! You put up an hour-long video I want to watch just before I leave for home. Where - for reasons still unclear to my non-technical brain - I have no sound!
Hmph!
| 3 |
Sharmuta Thu, May 14, 2009 3:11:06pm |
I watched the first half of this last night, and it was very good.
I liked when he said it's okay to not know in science. Scientists see it as an opportunity to learn more, where creationists tend to see it as proof that science doesn't know anything. It's really a strawman on the part of the creationists.
| 4 |
DEZes Thu, May 14, 2009 3:11:47pm |
I almost always forget to upding the threads.
Not this time.
| 5 |
Sharmuta Thu, May 14, 2009 3:12:24pm |
Related- I like the new youtube time meter thingy. No more guessing what time mark you're at when skipping ahead.
| 6 |
FurryOldGuyJeans Thu, May 14, 2009 3:16:47pm |
Sorry, Darwin is just another dead white dude. Get no respect here.
/ is it sarcasm, or is it memorex?
| 9 |
Shr_Nfr Thu, May 14, 2009 3:19:11pm |
I think there is more at stake than "Why Darwinism Matters". Obviously this is a point on which the Republicans are tripping over their own genitals. They have to get it right. But more importantly, there has to be a thrust as to "Why the Scientific Method Matters". Otherwise we will continue to have the global hacks of all sorts playing their dumb games. AGW is a prime example. The thesis is that CO2 raises atmospheric temperatures. Fine, that is a thesis and since we know about greenhouses, maybe one that should be tested. OK, here comes the test. What has been the relation between CO2 and temperature for the past 100+ years, or indeed where we can get evidence the past several million years. Well, for the past 100 years, its weak. The Pearson correlation is only .66 with a r squared of .44. Not very good. What about the past 10 years? Correlation is -0.14 with an r squared of 0.02. Basically noise. What about the geological record? CO2 concentrations in the atmosphere appear to be a lagging (or phase shifted) indicator of temperature. Can we understand why? One hypothesis is that the oceans release CO2 into the atmosphere as they warm. The chemistry is pretty well established that as the temperature of water or brine goes up, the amount of CO2 in solution goes down. Its gotta go someplace.
I know that these things get vested interests, but its about time we trained people to understand the scientific method, otherwise we are in for some new version of witch trials ever generation.
| 10 |
FurryOldGuyJeans Thu, May 14, 2009 3:19:24pm |
re: #7 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Man, just listen to the hatred.
/
The DI getting in a rebuttal?
I can't watch video on this PC, so what am I missing?
| 11 |
zombie Thu, May 14, 2009 3:19:55pm |
Why Darwin Matters: The Case Against Intelligent Design.
There is no case against Intelligent Design. Just as there is no case against reincarnation, nirvana, limbo or djinns. Because all of these, including Intelligent Design, are theological concepts outside the framework of science. They can be neither proven nor disproven. And as such, they are non-scientific, and have no place in science education.
| 12 |
callahan23 Thu, May 14, 2009 3:19:58pm |
I dig Michael Shermer. Clear headed, funny and intelligent. What a great mixture.
But wow, 58:38 minutes of video. I predict slow traffic in comments for an hour or so.
/ In case the Lizards are avidly watching the vid.
| 13 |
zombie Thu, May 14, 2009 3:20:52pm |
re: #9 Shr_Nfr
I think there is more at stake than "Why Darwinism Matters". Obviously this is a point on which the Republicans are tripping over their own genitals.
Well, on the plus side, at least this proves that Republicans are better endowed than Democrats.
| 14 |
Shug Thu, May 14, 2009 3:21:31pm |
re: #11 zombie
There is no case against Intelligent Design. Just as there is no case against reincarnation, nirvana, limbo or djinns. Because all of these, including Intelligent Design, are theological concepts outside the framework of science. They can be neither proven nor disproven. And as such, they are non-scientific, and have no place in science education.
Is this when you tell me that the carrot I am holding isn't really a carrot ?
| 15 |
FurryOldGuyJeans Thu, May 14, 2009 3:22:12pm |
re: #11 zombie
There is no case against Intelligent Design. Just as there is no case against reincarnation, nirvana, limbo or djinns. Because all of these, including Intelligent Design, are theological concepts outside the framework of science. They can be neither proven nor disproven. And as such, they are non-scientific, and have no place in science education.
Heretic! Blasphemer!
You dirty, rotten rationalist, you!
This site was so much better when it was all about 'splodey jihadis and music. Charles and Zombie, why do you hate [fill in the blank] so much?
/ is it sarcasm, or is it memorex?
| 16 |
zombie Thu, May 14, 2009 3:23:15pm |
re: #14 Shug
Is this when you tell me that the carrot I am holding isn't really a carrot ?
No. It's a daikon.
| 17 |
Sharmuta Thu, May 14, 2009 3:23:28pm |
I think Darwin matters because evolution is a great example of the scientific method, and that method is a fundamental aspect of Enlightenment ideals. While free societies follow the rule of law to protect and uphold individual rights and society, the scientific method does the same for science. Breaking down these internal supports would create chaos and anarchy.
Stripping away the layers, you can see the framework- like a skeleton or foundation- once damaged the remaining structure is weak and meaningless. Without the scientific method, science means nothing. Without the rule of law, my rights are ill defined.
These are western ideals worth defending. That's why Darwin, the Founders, our Constitution- these matter. And it's why they're under attack.
| 18 |
zombie Thu, May 14, 2009 3:24:24pm |
re: #5 Sharmuta
Related- I like the new youtube time meter thingy. No more guessing what time mark you're at when skipping ahead.
Me too. The not-knowing of how much time there is to go was annoying.
| 19 |
FurryOldGuyJeans Thu, May 14, 2009 3:24:30pm |
re: #14 Shug
Is this when you tell me that the carrot I am holding isn't really a carrot ?
That is really James Arness dressed up as a 6 ft. space invading carrot.
| 20 |
Russkilitlover Thu, May 14, 2009 3:24:41pm |
re: #11 zombie
There is no case against Intelligent Design. Just as there is no case against reincarnation, nirvana, limbo or djinns. Because all of these, including Intelligent Design, are theological concepts outside the framework of science. They can be neither proven nor disproven. And as such, they are non-scientific, and have no place in science education.
It's really as simple as that. I honestly don't understand the reasoning of the ID pushers. At all.
| 21 |
IslandLibertarian Thu, May 14, 2009 3:25:14pm |
Intelligent Design / Duck Billed Platypus............
hmmmmmmmmmm..........No.
/just to test my faith?
| 22 |
livefreeor die Thu, May 14, 2009 3:25:23pm |
I'm trying to figure out what Pelosi evolved from. It's so rare you get a moving fossil.
| 23 |
FurryOldGuyJeans Thu, May 14, 2009 3:25:31pm |
re: #17 Sharmuta
I think Darwin matters because evolution is a great example of the scientific method, and that method is a fundamental aspect of Enlightenment ideals. While free societies follow the rule of law to protect and uphold individual rights and society, the scientific method does the same for science. Breaking down these internal supports would create chaos and anarchy.
Stripping away the layers, you can see the framework- like a skeleton or foundation- once damaged the remaining structure is weak and meaningless. Without the scientific method, science means nothing. Without the rule of law, my rights are ill defined.
These are western ideals worth defending. That's why Darwin, the Founders, our Constitution- these matter. And it's why they're under attack.
No, no, no, no, no. The Bible tells us all we need to know.
/ is it sarcasm, or is it memorex?
| 24 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, May 14, 2009 3:25:47pm |
re: #17 Sharmuta
...These are western ideals worth defending. That's why Darwin, the Founders, our Constitution- these matter. And it's why they're under attack.
Then you are saying they are under attack from conservatives? we already know these ideals are under attack from liberals, but what's left if the two major mindset are both on the same mission?
I'm not sure I fully understand your comment.
| 25 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, May 14, 2009 3:26:35pm |
re: #22 livefreeor die
I'm trying to figure out what Pelosi evolved from. It's so rare you get a moving fossil.
[Link: www.movers.com...]
| 26 |
opnion Thu, May 14, 2009 3:26:55pm |
re: #22 livefreeor die
I'm trying to figure out what Pelosi evolved from. It's so rare you get a moving fossil.
I would guess the Startled Heron.
| 27 |
Shug Thu, May 14, 2009 3:27:04pm |
re: #22 livefreeor die
I'm trying to figure out what Pelosi evolved from. It's so rare you get a moving fossil.
there are 5 different versions of her evolutionary tree
| 28 |
FurryOldGuyJeans Thu, May 14, 2009 3:27:32pm |
re: #27 Shug
there are 5 different versions of her evolutionary tree
She has her own root and branch.
| 29 |
livefreeor die Thu, May 14, 2009 3:28:15pm |
| 30 |
Sharmuta Thu, May 14, 2009 3:29:28pm |
re: #24 Walter L. Newton
Then you are saying they are under attack from conservatives? we already know these ideals are under attack from liberals, but what's left if the two major mindset are both on the same mission?
I'm not sure I fully understand your comment.
No- they are under attack from people across the political spectrum who do not value these ideals- individual rights, free markets, the scientific method, freedom of conscience.
In my mind, a conservative stands for these things as this is what we're trying to conserve. Others may think differently, and likely do. Regardless- the enemies of these ideals come from many quarters.
| 31 |
brookly red Thu, May 14, 2009 3:30:11pm |
| 32 |
opnion Thu, May 14, 2009 3:30:17pm |
re: #29 livefreeor die
the obfuscating startled heron-it's a rare bird
Indeed it is. they also trace lineage to the dodo bird.
| 33 |
Dianna Thu, May 14, 2009 3:30:19pm |
re: #21 IslandLibertarian
Intelligent Design / Duck Billed Platypus............
hmmmmmmmmmm..........No./just to test my faith?
Well, if you really want to, you can argue that the Duck Billed Platypus is proof of the sense of humor enjoyed by the deity.
But, no. Not really. Though I adore the platypus on general principles. It's such an unlikely creature.
| 34 |
gmsc Thu, May 14, 2009 3:30:35pm |
Complaints that the video is wrong because Michael Shermer is in league with James Randi in 5 . . . 4 . . . 3 . . .
| 37 |
livefreeor die Thu, May 14, 2009 3:32:45pm |
re: #31 brookly red
not rare enough.
I suspect it's current status as the dominant female is endangered.
| 38 |
Jim D Thu, May 14, 2009 3:33:30pm |
re: #9 Shr_Nfr
We should also train people that Pearson correlation only measures the strength of the linear relationship between two variables and that sometime things have more complicated non-linear relationship that aren't so easy to understand.
| 39 |
opnion Thu, May 14, 2009 3:33:44pm |
re: #37 livefreeor die
I suspect it's current status as the dominant female is endangered.
They tend to blink a lot when agitated.
| 40 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, May 14, 2009 3:35:05pm |
re: #26 opnion
I would guess the Startled Heron.
I just got here. Read that as...
I would guess she Started Heroin.
I might start to use reading glasses.
| 41 |
livefreeor die Thu, May 14, 2009 3:35:39pm |
re: #38 Jim D
We should also train people that Pearson correlation only measures the strength of the linear relationship between two variables and that sometime things have more complicated non-linear relationship that aren't so easy to understand.
If I had a dime for every time I've written "Correlation does not equal causation" on a student's paper, I'd be funding all the bailouts (involuntarily).
| 42 |
LGoPs Thu, May 14, 2009 3:35:57pm |
re: #22 livefreeor die
I'm trying to figure out what Pelosi evolved from. It's so rare you get a moving fossil.
A shrew. A very nasty, ill-tempered shrew.
| 43 |
MandyManners Thu, May 14, 2009 3:36:38pm |
| 44 |
Killgore Trout Thu, May 14, 2009 3:36:38pm |
OT: Cuteness pics.....
Welcome to the world's only orang-utan hospital
Hooked up to a drip, wearing just a nappy and a forlorn expression, the tiny infant stares out through the bars of his cot at the frenzy of activity around him.
A few feet away, a nurse makes up a bottle of formula while another prepares a bath. On a nearby table lies a thermometer, a blood-pressure gauge and bottles of medication.
The scene is typical of any infant care unit and the staff are dedicated to saving their tiny patients. The only difference is that these 'babies' are not human but infant orang-utans.
| 45 |
gmsc Thu, May 14, 2009 3:37:13pm |
re: #44 Killgore Trout
OT: Cuteness pics.....
Welcome to the world's only orang-utan hospital
It's not often you see "Cuteness" and "hospital" in the same thought.
| 46 |
debutaunt Thu, May 14, 2009 3:37:49pm |
| 47 |
Kosh's Shadow Thu, May 14, 2009 3:38:02pm |
re: #11 zombie
There is no case against Intelligent Design. Just as there is no case against reincarnation, nirvana, limbo or djinns. Because all of these, including Intelligent Design, are theological concepts outside the framework of science. They can be neither proven nor disproven. And as such, they are non-scientific, and have no place in science education.
ID proponents claim ID is science. That is, once they have their testable theory worked out.
That's why learning the scientific method is important.
| 48 |
livefreeor die Thu, May 14, 2009 3:38:20pm |
re: #42 LGoPs
A shrew. A very nasty, ill-tempered shrew.
Whoa- a shrew mating with a heron-resulting in some very unintelligent design.
| 49 |
zombie Thu, May 14, 2009 3:41:32pm |
To clear things up:
Evolution is an observed fact. Just as gravity is an observed fact.
In both cases, however, the mechanism for how these facts arise was unknown until fairly recently.
Gravity -- or the notion that stuff falls down to the earth -- was perceived and known since earliest history. Isaac Newton described the mathematical patterns of gravity in the 18th century. But he still had no idea what caused it.
It took Albert Einstein to finally posit a brilliant theory which explains how gravity works. In this case, it's not that "mass attracts mass," but rather that mass distorts space itself, and nearby masses "go with the flow" by hewing to the shortest line within that distorted space -- a phenomenon which we perceive as "gravity" or "stuff falling down."
In similar vein, evolution was suspected as far back as ancient Greece, when they found fossils similar to but different than those of modern animals. It wasn't until the 19th century when Gregor Mendel described what was essentially the "mathematics" of evolution -- genetics. At the same time, Darwin, like Einstein, first proposed a workable and testable theory of how evolution works -- what we now call "natural selection."
In both cases, Einstein's and Darwin's theories have stood over a century's worth of rigorous investigation by the world's greatest minds -- and survived the test. With flying colors. As a result, Einstein's theory of gravity and Darwin's theory of evolution are universally accepted as the best theories in each field.
And here's the key: It doesn't matter whether or not anyone "believes" in these theories. Because they will continue to be true whether or not anyone believes in them. Apples will fall, and species will change. And all the doubters in the world can never alter this.
| 50 |
jcm Thu, May 14, 2009 3:41:40pm |
re: #47 Kosh's Shadow
ID proponents claim ID is science. That is, once they have their testable theory worked out.
That's why learning the scientific method is important.
You want TESTABLE?
Dang, back to the drawing board......
//
| 51 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, May 14, 2009 3:41:53pm |
re: #47 Kosh's Shadow
ID proponents claim ID is science. That is, once they have their testable theory worked out.
That's why learning the scientific method is important.
I just can't tell what their point is. Sometimes it seems to be that evolution is guided by God, which I don't object to, and sometimes it seems to be that they can disprove evolution, which they can't.
| 52 |
Shr_Nfr Thu, May 14, 2009 3:43:32pm |
Charles put this up as the quote for open of his open threads. I think it is applicable in the general case:
Don’t you believe in flying saucers, they ask me? Don’t you believe in telepathy? — in ancient astronauts? — in the Bermuda triangle? — in life after death?
No, I reply. No, no, no, no, and again no.
One person recently, goaded into desperation by the litany of unrelieved negation, burst out “Don’t you believe in anything?”
“Yes”, I said. “I believe in evidence. I believe in observation, measurement, and reasoning, confirmed by independent observers. I’ll believe anything, no matter how wild and ridiculous, if there is evidence for it. The wilder and more ridiculous something is, however, the firmer and more solid the evidence will have to be.”
— Isaac Asimov
| 53 |
LGoPs Thu, May 14, 2009 3:45:31pm |
| 54 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, May 14, 2009 3:46:38pm |
re: #52 Shr_Nfr
Just Wiki'd (not a perfect source, I know, but...) cool Asimov fact...
His works have been published in nine of the ten major categories of the Dewey Decimal System (the sole exception being the 100s; philosophy and psychology).
| 55 |
BenghaziHoops Thu, May 14, 2009 3:50:47pm |
re: #54 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Just Wiki'd (not a perfect source, I know, but...) cool Asimov fact...
Good Evening Veggie!
| 56 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, May 14, 2009 3:52:26pm |
| 58 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, May 14, 2009 3:52:58pm |
| 59 |
opnion Thu, May 14, 2009 3:53:00pm |
| 60 |
callahan23 Thu, May 14, 2009 3:53:34pm |
That great cartoon the video features: You are now leaving Kansas
| 62 |
MagnaniomousCoward Thu, May 14, 2009 3:53:49pm |
OT:
BRAINS!
(raising the Zombie signal)
Shrinks, loons and clowns converge in San Fran this weekend: Check this spin-off link. Something to photograph maybe? If they show up with their thousands of promised attendees, that is.
| 63 |
FrogMarch Thu, May 14, 2009 3:54:40pm |
I've always liked Michael Shermer. He's been a guest on the Mike Rosen show a few times. He's awesome.
| 64 |
Russkilitlover Thu, May 14, 2009 3:54:40pm |
Sorry for the OT, but I cannot get my mind around this. Obama is warning US about coming inflation and high interest rates because of deficit spending? WTF world does this maroon inhabit? Oh, and he threw in that everyday Americans share the blame, for consistency.
'Obama Says Long Term Debt Unsustainable"....Unbefrigginglievable...
| 66 |
screaming_eagle Thu, May 14, 2009 3:55:46pm |
re: #56 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Hi. They're selling California, man.
Yeh but nobody wants to buy it. Not even China would want California.
| 67 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, May 14, 2009 3:55:48pm |
| 68 |
BenghaziHoops Thu, May 14, 2009 3:58:33pm |
re: #56 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Hi. They're selling California, man.
I already called Dibs on Napa Valley...Need some free wine?
| 69 |
debutaunt Thu, May 14, 2009 3:59:34pm |
re: #68 HoosierHoops
I already called Dibs on Napa Valley...Need some free wine?
Yer gonna kill me with the shipping, aren't cha?
| 70 |
MagnaniomousCoward Thu, May 14, 2009 4:00:16pm |
re: #64 Russkilitlover
I don't know. I just keep hoping that this isn't the Carter II presidency.
| 71 |
lawhawk Thu, May 14, 2009 4:00:23pm |
re: #64 Russkilitlover
You don't say. Budgets are unsustainable and spending to excess is unwise? No kidding.
But, it's a problem that is repeated all around the nation. Here in NJ, the financial "wiz" Corzine is proposing "cuts" even as spending balloons and rosy projections for revenue simply don't come to pass because they never had a chance of being right. To wit, Corzine expected revenues to be off this year by 17% from 2008. They're 40% off. That's inexcusable. There's no excuse for being that wrong. Except insufferable stupidity masked by the big "D" after the name.
| 72 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, May 14, 2009 4:00:24pm |
re: #68 HoosierHoops
Nah. But if they sell the Rockies...
Dwight Howard called his coach an idiot and has now guaranteed victory. He has a place in the Republican Party.
| 73 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, May 14, 2009 4:00:46pm |
| 74 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, May 14, 2009 4:04:21pm |
re: #60 callahan23
That great cartoon the video features: You are now leaving Kansas
Good one, Harry!
| 75 |
BenghaziHoops Thu, May 14, 2009 4:05:17pm |
re: #72 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Nah. But if they sell the Rockies...
Dwight Howard called his coach an idiot and has now guaranteed victory. He has a place in the Republican Party.
Well..he is an idiot. Any coach has his best players on the floor the last 5 minutes unless they fouled out...It's so obvious it's not funny...Plus there has been a lot of talk about how Van Gundy panics in close games..From his players no less off the record..He has never impressed me as a coach...
| 76 |
Russkilitlover Thu, May 14, 2009 4:05:52pm |
re: #71 lawhawk
You don't say. Budgets are unsustainable and spending to excess is unwise? No kidding.
But, it's a problem that is repeated all around the nation. Here in NJ, the financial "wiz" Corzine is proposing "cuts" even as spending balloons and rosy projections for revenue simply don't come to pass because they never had a chance of being right. To wit, Corzine expected revenues to be off this year by 17% from 2008. They're 40% off. That's inexcusable. There's no excuse for being that wrong. Except insufferable stupidity masked by the big "D" after the name.
The whole tone of his quotes and statements is like he chastising us for all this deficit spending. Like it's our own fault that our great-great-great-great grandkids will still be saddled with this debt. And no one calls him on it.
| 77 |
Vicious Babushka Thu, May 14, 2009 4:07:04pm |
re: #76 Russkilitlover
The whole tone of his quotes and statements is like he chastising us for all this deficit spending. Like it's our own fault that our great-great-great-great grandkids will still be saddled with this debt. And no one calls him on it.
We are all calling him on it, but not the MSM.
| 78 |
Randall Gross Thu, May 14, 2009 4:08:23pm |
This is an hour long but I urge everyone to spend the time. It's not the same old arguments presented the same way, but rather new angles on them. Starting with the YEC'ers Shermer cruises through each division within the ID movement and crushes their main points. He then proceeds to why it's important, and that last half will stretch your mind, shock you, and will reaffirm why science is the most important thing going right now.
| 79 |
zombie Thu, May 14, 2009 4:08:43pm |
re: #62 MagnaniomousCoward
OT:
BRAINS!
(raising the Zombie signal)Shrinks, loons and clowns converge in San Fran this weekend: Check this spin-off link. Something to photograph maybe? If they show up with their thousands of promised attendees, that is.
Maybe. Maybe. Thanks for pointing it out, at least.
| 80 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, May 14, 2009 4:08:50pm |
Must make like a tree and leave.
Must make like a horse turd and hit the trail.
Must make like a shepherd and get the flock out of here.
| 81 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, May 14, 2009 4:09:51pm |
re: #75 HoosierHoops
Dude? You're quoting Shaq?
| 82 |
jaunte Thu, May 14, 2009 4:12:39pm |
re: #78 Thanos
It's curious that IDers probably accept that self-organizing economies are possible (and more efficient than command economies), but can't accept the same about the evolution of life-forms.
| 83 |
BenghaziHoops Thu, May 14, 2009 4:14:52pm |
re: #81 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Dude? You're quoting Shaq?
Maybe...I could take the word of a 4 time world Champion who may be one of the greatest Centers of all time..Or a coach that really sucks and has never won crap.
You do not leave your best players on the bench in crunch time in the playoffs..
Hell even Sister Mary Roberts knew that shit in Jr. High...
Van Gundy is gone after the play-offs..Fired for cause.
Have a nice evening my friend
| 84 |
DEZes Thu, May 14, 2009 4:15:17pm |
I had no intention of watching the entire video, but I did, and glad I did.
excellent.
| 85 |
itellu3times Thu, May 14, 2009 4:15:42pm |
re: #11 zombie
There is no case against Intelligent Design. Just as there is no case against reincarnation, nirvana, limbo or djinns. Because all of these, including Intelligent Design, are theological concepts outside the framework of science. They can be neither proven nor disproven. And as such, they are non-scientific, and have no place in science education.
quibble.
There is a case against Intelligent Design, and you have just made it.
ID is not an argument at all, it is a claim that someone, somewhere, did a design, but we know not who, what, when, where, or why. That's not much of a claim, put against almost any other proposal. The claim may be false, absent any such information.
The claim goes back to the old saw (source?) that one looks at a watch, and "knows" there is a watchmaker, but hey, any argument by inspection is no argument at all. This is no different than the old claims of teleology, that an acorn grows into an oak "because that is its purpose". Teleological arguments fell out of vogue about 1300 AD. Such an argument is only a restatement of the question.
Although teleologists still exist in secular academia today, they should be ashamed of themselves, they are atavistic in the extreme, obsolete even before the enlightenment dawned.
So the "argument against intelligent design" is that there is zero argument in favor - no counter is called for, and any counter wins immediately, by default.
Hope I've stated that strongly enough!
| 86 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, May 14, 2009 4:16:21pm |
re: #83 HoosierHoops
Not arguing. Just thought it was funny Dwight pulled that poop. Night kids!
| 87 |
Randall Gross Thu, May 14, 2009 4:16:47pm |
re: #82 jaunte
It's curious that IDers probably accept that self-organizing economies are possible (and more efficient than command economies), but can't accept the same about the evolution of life-forms.
Yes, that's a key concept in this lecture: Capitalism, Evolution, and the Universe: all bottom up and self organizing
| 89 |
Randall Gross Thu, May 14, 2009 4:19:15pm |
He takes about 45 mins debunking everything ID, but the really mind blowing stuff starts about 46 min in.
| 90 |
Sharmuta Thu, May 14, 2009 4:20:45pm |
re: #82 jaunte
It's curious that IDers probably accept that self-organizing economies are possible (and more efficient than command economies), but can't accept the same about the evolution of life-forms.
The constrained vision relies on evolution. I find it fascinating that some could reject the science of it so strongly yet rely on the mechanism for other aspects of their ideology. Or do they?
| 91 |
vxbush Thu, May 14, 2009 4:21:38pm |
re: #85 itellu3times
The claim goes back to the old saw (source?) that one looks at a watch, and "knows" there is a watchmaker, but hey, any argument by inspection is no argument at all. This is no different than the old claims of teleology, that an acorn grows into an oak "because that is its purpose". Teleological arguments fell out of vogue about 1300 AD. Such an argument is only a restatement of the question.
So teleology has no purpose? :D
| 92 |
Randall Gross Thu, May 14, 2009 4:21:47pm |
"The entire universe in 1903 was 1200 lights years across"
:)
| 93 |
DEZes Thu, May 14, 2009 4:23:50pm |
| 95 |
Randall Gross Thu, May 14, 2009 4:28:18pm |
Btw, Thanks Kindly for the hat tip Charles.
| 96 |
Gus Thu, May 14, 2009 4:28:28pm |
Excellent presentation by Michael Shermer. I particularly found the historical progression of the size of our universe through time which he does so quickly yet efficiently. He provides a refreshing monologue on science and evolution.
| 97 |
alegrias Thu, May 14, 2009 4:31:38pm |
Maybe if our public schools committed themselves to teaching reading, writing & arithmetic & the scientific method, more kids would take enough math & science to understand these concepts.
Half our kids don't finish school in some states, and can't read, much less comprehend this issue.
The absence of teaching reading, writing, arithmetic & logic in our schools, is a crime.
| 98 |
MagnaniomousCoward Thu, May 14, 2009 4:31:52pm |
You know, we learned about magical numerology in math class, and about astrology in science class. In the same vein I didn't see a problem with telling students about creationism and "inteligent design" in science class, since this is all part of learning about the history of science.
Thanks to reading LGF I know why this is a problem in the USA: Heaps of anti-evolution "teachers" pumped out of questionable institutions, who will seize upon anything to do with creationism and ID and turn it into an indoctrination in religion in science class. And that this is not only a problem in the US, but also in "secular" countries like Turkey and "Islamic" countries.
I hope you'll come to the point where you can tell your students about creationism and ID in a neutral fashion, and not have it end up like an invitation to indoctrination in the class room.
| 99 |
alegrias Thu, May 14, 2009 4:34:49pm |
re: #82 jaunte
It's curious that IDers probably accept that self-organizing economies are possible (and more efficient than command economies), but can't accept the same about the evolution of life-forms.
* * * * *
Wouldn't it be great if people could keep their faith beliefs private, and others keep their faith in Marx's beliefs, private too?
Neither belong in school, in my opinion.
| 100 |
MagnaniomousCoward Thu, May 14, 2009 4:37:01pm |
re: #97 alegrias
Maybe if our public schools committed themselves to teaching reading, writing & arithmetic & the scientific method, more kids would take enough math & science to understand these concepts.
Exactly! The students and teachers should know enough about the scientific method, and the standards of proof in natural science, to safely teach about evolution, ID and creationism in science class without turning it into some kind of "every theory is equally valid, belive what you want to believe" nonsense. First of all, if you don't know the difference between what a "theory" means in science contra the vernacular (where it just means "hypothesis") then you've really had a failed education.
| 102 |
MagnaniomousCoward Thu, May 14, 2009 4:42:08pm |
re: #100 MagnaniomousCoward
And I guess I should cover my posterior by pointing out that creationism and ID don't even rise to the level of testable hypotheses - at least not how they're usually expressed.
| 103 |
shiek al beif salami Thu, May 14, 2009 4:45:34pm |
I'm designing a modification for my garden rototiller, but I'm working hard to make sure it is an intelligent design.
| 104 |
screaming_eagle Thu, May 14, 2009 4:48:15pm |
re: #103 shiek al beif salami
I'm designing a modification for my garden rototiller, but I'm working hard to make sure it is an intelligent design.
Your practicing creationism? To each his own, just don't turn a profit or Obama will get you.
| 105 |
Gus Thu, May 14, 2009 4:48:25pm |
re: #103 shiek al beif salami
I'm designing a modification for my garden rototiller, but I'm working hard to make sure it is an intelligent design.
Make sure and leave out the vestigial grass catcher. /
| 106 |
nyc redneck Thu, May 14, 2009 4:49:45pm |
re: #76 Russkilitlover
The whole tone of his quotes and statements is like he chastising us for all this deficit spending. Like it's our own fault that our great-great-great-great grandkids will still be saddled with this debt. And no one calls him on it.
isn't it outrageous how he never 'gets in trouble'.
(for anything.)
| 108 |
Sharmuta Thu, May 14, 2009 4:54:09pm |
Speaking of the constrained vision- Adam Smith, who is brought up in the video for the phrase "invisible hand" in economic terms, is also considered by Dr Sowell to be of the constrained vision. It's all rather interconnected. Of course, Dr Sowell does a much better job of explaining it all in A Conflict of Visions, but I find economic terms to do a good job as metaphors.
| 109 |
shiek al beif salami Thu, May 14, 2009 4:55:38pm |
re: #105 Gus 802
It's a huge, fossilized 1947 rototiller, but I've been able to trace the origin of my 1982 Troybilt rototiller back to it through the fossil record. Even so, I still have a hard time believing that the tires and transmission could just have evolved by chance. Too damn round and complex. There must be a rototiller designer out there somewhere.
| 110 |
DEZes Thu, May 14, 2009 4:56:46pm |
| 111 |
vxbush Thu, May 14, 2009 4:57:05pm |
re: #107 Querent
the phantom up-dinger strikes again!
For which I thank you. I don't know about anyone else, but I can definitely use the positive affirmation. :D
| 112 |
UberInfidel67 Thu, May 14, 2009 4:57:46pm |
JCM you still here? From the dead thread, yeah, I might go with the Gatling. lol
| 113 |
itellu3times Thu, May 14, 2009 4:57:50pm |
re: #91 vxbush
So teleology has no purpose? :D
Well, if you ask it that way, I will give you my own answer and that is, correct, inanimate (that is, non-agential) "things" have no purpose.
A "hammer" has no purpose. You, an agent, may have a purpose for the hammer, and indeed, the hammer may have a purpose FOR X, where X may be a player to be named later. Yet I assert, the hammer by itself has NO purpose.
| 114 |
Gus Thu, May 14, 2009 4:57:59pm |
re: #109 shiek al beif salami
It's a huge, fossilized 1947 rototiller, but I've been able to trace the origin of my 1982 Troybilt rototiller back to it through the fossil record. Even so, I still have a hard time believing that the tires and transmission could just have evolved by chance. Too damn round and complex. There must be a rototiller designer out there somewhere.
There are two possibilities. One, it was designed by alien beings from the planet Rototilleron. Or two, it was designed by some Amish guy. Not having seen the designer it's quite possible that it was designed by any other intelligent agency. //
| 115 |
DEZes Thu, May 14, 2009 4:59:17pm |
re: #114 Gus 802
There are two possibilities. One, it was designed by alien beings from the planet Rototilleron. Or two, it was designed by some Amish guy. Not having seen the designer it's quite possible that it was designed by any other intelligent agency. //
I had a lawn mower that made a big bang.
| 116 |
vxbush Thu, May 14, 2009 4:59:35pm |
re: #113 itellu3times
Well, if you ask it that way, I will give you my own answer and that is, correct, inanimate (that is, non-agential) "things" have no purpose.
A "hammer" has no purpose. You, an agent, may have a purpose for the hammer, and indeed, the hammer may have a purpose FOR X, where X may be a player to be named later. Yet I assert, the hammer by itself has NO purpose.
Oh, that's fine. I was just joshing with you. I suppose my joke was too obscure.
| 117 |
shiek al beif salami Thu, May 14, 2009 5:00:10pm |
re: #113 itellu3times
I'm still stuck on the question of whether faith must necessarily result in the teleological suspension of ethics, but I heard the answer may be "42."
| 118 |
Gus Thu, May 14, 2009 5:00:56pm |
re: #115 DEZes
I had a lawn mower that made a big bang.
And from it came a bunch of tiny lawn mowers?
I tried mowing lawns for a living once. That ended on the first day. //
| 119 |
Querent Thu, May 14, 2009 5:01:51pm |
re: #111 vxbush
you're welcome!
it's my own small way of sticking it to the phantom down-dingers that seem to creep out on these threads.
Today i'm handing out up-dings for: cogent arguments (and i don't necessarily have to agree with them 100%), witty turns of phrase, and, of course, snark.
| 120 |
DEZes Thu, May 14, 2009 5:02:32pm |
re: #118 Gus 802
And from it came a bunch of tiny lawn mowers?
I tried mowing lawns for a living once. That ended on the first day. //
Well there was alot of smoke and fire. ;)
| 121 |
shiek al beif salami Thu, May 14, 2009 5:02:40pm |
re: #114 Gus 802
I so want to believe there is a rototiller Designer, even if Amish. Everything else I believe in, including my belief in radishes and sweet peas, depends upon it.
| 122 |
hazzyday Thu, May 14, 2009 5:03:23pm |
re: #92 Thanos
"The entire universe in 1903 was 1200 lights years across"
:)
Creationist quote? haven't had time to listen. The Milky way is bigger than 1200 light years across I think.
| 123 |
callahan23 Thu, May 14, 2009 5:03:32pm |
What an excellent presentation of science. Fast paced, intelligent and debunking the ID / creationists camp pretty thoroughly.
Whoot. A must see for all school children ages 14 and up, I'd suggest.
Thanks Charles and Thanos for this video.
By the way
By the re: #95 Thanos
is your avatar anyway related to the lion of the code of arms of the 'Newcastle University' (Newcastle upon Tyne, England) ?
| 124 |
itellu3times Thu, May 14, 2009 5:03:40pm |
| 125 |
pingjockey Thu, May 14, 2009 5:03:43pm |
WAAAAAAAAY off topic. O'Reilly is almost gleeful in being able to slam the Kommunist Lawyers Union and Pelosi.
| 127 |
Killgore Trout Thu, May 14, 2009 5:04:24pm |
Anti-American Paulian Tea Partiers embarrassed themselves again today at Obama's visit to New Mexico.
| 128 |
Gus Thu, May 14, 2009 5:04:40pm |
re: #120 DEZes
Well there was alot of smoke and fire. ;)
I remember those days. That was before my folks got this big old Sear electric mower. Then it was a matter of avoiding the extension chord and being directly conductive with another big bang.
| 129 |
itellu3times Thu, May 14, 2009 5:05:18pm |
re: #116 vxbush
Oh, that's fine. I was just joshing with you. I suppose my joke was too obscure.
I saw the smiley, but had a good head of steam and didn't want to waste it!
| 130 |
Achilles Tang Thu, May 14, 2009 5:05:21pm |
re: #9 Shr_Nfr
You seem to miss the issue altogether, which is whether or not humans release more CO2, release more methane, reduce the CO2 absorption capacity of the planet by deforestation, and more.....
The issue is not the historical record, the issue is have WE changed the equations?
| 131 |
Killgore Trout Thu, May 14, 2009 5:05:34pm |
re: #127 Killgore Trout
...Promoted on an anti-Israel Paulian site called "freinds of liberty."
| 132 |
DEZes Thu, May 14, 2009 5:05:37pm |
re: #122 hazzyday
Creationist quote? haven't had time to listen. The Milky way is bigger than 1200 light years across I think.
The Milky Way is effectively 100 thousand light years in diameter.
That was not a creationist quote by the way, just science at the turn of the century.
| 133 |
Gus Thu, May 14, 2009 5:05:50pm |
re: #121 shiek al beif salami
I so want to believe there is a rototiller Designer, even if Amish. Everything else I believe in, including my belief in radishes and sweet peas, depends upon it.
Then you must also get an aerator! //
| 134 |
pingjockey Thu, May 14, 2009 5:05:52pm |
Lamont Hill, Piled Higher and Deeper is a fool and an idiot.
| 135 |
shiek al beif salami Thu, May 14, 2009 5:05:54pm |
re: #114 Gus 802
It all began in the primordial molten cast iron forge.
| 136 |
itellu3times Thu, May 14, 2009 5:06:03pm |
re: #126 pingjockey
IIRC, 33,000 Light Years.
We're about 33k ly from the center, the whole thing is about 100k light years, long axis.
| 137 |
Sharmuta Thu, May 14, 2009 5:06:44pm |
Cool! Michael Shermer uses the same Phillip Johnson quote I use.
| 138 |
DEZes Thu, May 14, 2009 5:06:55pm |
re: #136 itellu3times
We're about 33k ly from the center, the whole thing is about 100k light years, long axis.
Good man. ;)
| 139 |
pingjockey Thu, May 14, 2009 5:07:04pm |
re: #136 itellu3times
Thank you. Wish I had NASA tv to watch the Hubble repairs.
| 140 |
Killgore Trout Thu, May 14, 2009 5:07:08pm |
re: #131 Killgore Trout
Crazy Pam poudly posted pics. One encouraging Obama to go back to Kenya. I'm really learning to despise the Tea Parties even more.
| 141 |
BenghaziHoops Thu, May 14, 2009 5:07:30pm |
re: #126 pingjockey
IIRC, 33,000 Light Years.
Or 3 1/2 minutes by a Star Trek ship...
/That's going the speed limit of course
| 142 |
Querent Thu, May 14, 2009 5:07:33pm |
re: #131 Killgore Trout
that's another thing i'm handing out. Purple Hearts & Distinguished Service Above & Beyond the Call of Sanity for Lizards like Killgore who've got the stamina to make these intelligence-gathering forays behind enemy lines for the benefit of the rest of us.
(got a fresh gallon jug of brain bleach too, right here)
| 143 |
Randall Gross Thu, May 14, 2009 5:07:46pm |
re: #122 hazzyday
No, our science was limited in 1903, that's how big we thought it was then.
| 145 |
IslandLibertarian Thu, May 14, 2009 5:08:21pm |
My business card identifies me as a "Designer".
The "Intelligent" part was left off 'cause it just sounded silly.
Now, what do you want to know 'bout Adam, Eve and the snake?
| 146 |
shiek al beif salami Thu, May 14, 2009 5:08:34pm |
re: #136 itellu3times
I used to describe time and distance for my kids in how many "Barney" shows it would take to get to a place. Don't even know where to start on 33k lr.
| 147 |
Sharmuta Thu, May 14, 2009 5:08:47pm |
re: #140 Killgore Trout
One big tea party organizer has ties to an LGF stalker. That's all I need to know.
| 148 |
Gus Thu, May 14, 2009 5:09:47pm |
re: #147 Sharmuta
One big tea party organizer has ties to an LGF stalker. That's all I need to know.
And here I just cleared my mind from that filth. ;)
| 149 |
Banner Thu, May 14, 2009 5:09:57pm |
To this day I CAN NOT UNDERSTAND how this whole 'intelligent design' thing got started. I mean I've seen it suck in people who were once smart and intelligent. Why do people think that belief in God and Science can NOT go hand in hand? WHY?
And why are those people converting others to this malarky?
You have no idea how often I have wanted to smack certain people I know silly. I mean it's okay to have this quirky little belief and trott it out in bars after a few drinks when you're open to saying silly and stupid things, but take it seriously? I mean really, if you're going to believe in this stuff then I honestly think you are insulting God! You're taking the most beautiful thing possible: The totality of creation, all of the rules, the laws, the stuff that is so breathtaking in it's beauty and sheer awesomeness, and replacing it with Magic?
I think when these people die they're going to have some explaining to do! "What Lord? You mean it wasn't just 'poof' and everything was there? You mean you really did spend eons and eons making the most complicated and wonderous things happen? Oh.... sorry..."
*sigh*
| 151 |
shiek al beif salami Thu, May 14, 2009 5:10:15pm |
re: #145 IslandLibertarian
One way to do it would be to identify yourself as "Designer," then underneath it, print "I.Q. 167"
| 153 |
callahan23 Thu, May 14, 2009 5:11:08pm |
re: #136 itellu3times
We're about 33k ly from the center, the whole thing is about 100k light years, long axis.
As an appendix to my emails I often use these directions:
[Harry Callahan]
-Germany (western part)
-Western Europe
-Earth (third planet from the sun)
-Solar system’s position: 10 kilo parsec (32.600 light years) away from the center of the galaxy and 15 pc (49 ly) north of the galactic equator, on the borderline between the Alpha- and Betaquadrants.
-Milky Way
-Galaxies of the Virgo Cluster
| 154 |
Randall Gross Thu, May 14, 2009 5:11:22pm |
re: #123 callahan23
No, not at all. It's a simple, standard heraldic device that has no relation to my family coat of arms. It's the old symbol for my kid's defunct Dark Age of Camelot guild, putting up their webpage and running it for them was how I incidentally got into blogging.
| 155 |
BenghaziHoops Thu, May 14, 2009 5:11:24pm |
re: #145 IslandLibertarian
My business card identifies me as a "Designer".
The "Intelligent" part was left off 'cause it just sounded silly.
Now, what do you want to know 'bout Adam, Eve and the snake?
Was Eve smoking hot?
/hey..You asked! LOL
| 156 |
DEZes Thu, May 14, 2009 5:12:19pm |
| 157 |
BenghaziHoops Thu, May 14, 2009 5:12:36pm |
re: #151 shiek al beif salami
One way to do it would be to identify yourself as "Designer," then underneath it, print "I.Q. 167"
That is wicked! I Remember that poster that bragged about a 167 IQ..
Funny as heck
| 159 |
Gus Thu, May 14, 2009 5:13:33pm |
re: #155 HoosierHoops
Was Eve smoking hot?
/hey..You asked! LOL
Depending on who you ask she either looked like Ann Margret or Sophia Loren. //
| 161 |
BlueCanuck Thu, May 14, 2009 5:14:17pm |
re: #149 Banner
Well, I guess it all goes back to the Scopes Monkey trials where a school fought against evolution. Since that time more and more evidence has built up to show it as fact. Now a small group of people founded the Discovery Institute to try to keep the idea alive of creationism. They also tried to bring it into the class room. That failed in a court of law so they rebranded Creationism to intelligent design. Two things to study more on this are the Wedge Document, and go to PBS and look for the Dover County documentary.
/Sorry I don't have the links, at work right now. But the Grand Lizard has blogged on both issues before so you can search for it here.
| 162 |
Killgore Trout Thu, May 14, 2009 5:14:29pm |
re: #147 Sharmuta
One big tea party organizer has ties to an LGF stalker. That's all I need to know.
Yeah, I wonder how Eric Odom got hooked up with Rodan and Savage.
| 163 |
shiek al beif salami Thu, May 14, 2009 5:15:21pm |
re: #157 HoosierHoops
Not to brag, but mine is in the mid-70's, which means that anything I learn, like tying my shoes and feeding myself, is a WAAAYY bigger achievement for me than it is for most people.
It's not where you are; it's how far you've come.
| 164 |
IslandLibertarian Thu, May 14, 2009 5:15:24pm |
| 165 |
callahan23 Thu, May 14, 2009 5:15:39pm |
re: #154 Thanos
It's the place I made my MSc, just to put my question into perspective.
| 166 |
Randall Gross Thu, May 14, 2009 5:16:30pm |
re: #165 callahan23
Well congrats then, it looks like a fine place to get one.
| 167 |
IslandLibertarian Thu, May 14, 2009 5:16:31pm |
re: #157 HoosierHoops
My ex (W/PhD) had 167IQ........I know, she told me, over and over and over........
| 168 |
shiek al beif salami Thu, May 14, 2009 5:16:51pm |
re: #159 Gus 802
And how many eyebrows did she have? Up to a certain point, more is better.
| 169 |
shiek al beif salami Thu, May 14, 2009 5:17:30pm |
re: #167 IslandLibertarian
If she was that smart, was she also rich?
| 170 |
Randall Gross Thu, May 14, 2009 5:17:36pm |
re: #167 IslandLibertarian
Did she have theories about testosterone and war?
| 171 |
mithrax Thu, May 14, 2009 5:17:56pm |
| 172 |
BenghaziHoops Thu, May 14, 2009 5:18:00pm |
re: #159 Gus 802
Depending on who you ask she either looked like Ann Margret or Sophia Loren. //
or maybe because of evolution..She started out looking like an ugly version of Helen Thomas and finally we ended up with Super models..
I need Government monies to study this..
/At least Eve ate fruit..What if the great temptation was in and out burgers?
We'd all be f'cked big time..
/
| 173 |
Querent Thu, May 14, 2009 5:18:02pm |
re: #169 shiek al beif salami
If she was that smart, was she also rich?
or good-looking? Invincible?
Invisible?
| 174 |
Sharmuta Thu, May 14, 2009 5:18:07pm |
Awesome- he also uses language as a metaphor of non-designed complexity through societal evolution. This is another metaphor used by Dr Sowell to describe the constrained vision.
| 175 |
jaunte Thu, May 14, 2009 5:18:45pm |
re: #149 Banner
To this day I CAN NOT UNDERSTAND how this whole 'intelligent design' thing got started. I mean I've seen it suck in people who were once smart and intelligent. Why do people think that belief in God and Science can NOT go hand in hand? WHY?
It's political:
Critics note that Johnson, as a principal officer of the Discovery Institute, often cites an overall plan to put the United States on a course toward the theocracy envisioned in the Wedge Strategy, and that the Discovery Institute as a matter of policy intentionally obfuscates its agenda.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
| 177 |
Gus Thu, May 14, 2009 5:19:10pm |
re: #172 HoosierHoops
or maybe because of evolution..She started out looking like an ugly version of Helen Thomas and finally we ended up with Super models..
I need Government monies to study this..
/At least Eve ate fruit..What if the great temptation wasin and out burgers?
We'd all be f'cked big time..
/
I've applied for a grant to study that in Chilean sports bars.
| 178 |
DEZes Thu, May 14, 2009 5:19:14pm |
| 179 |
mithrax Thu, May 14, 2009 5:19:18pm |
| 181 |
Gus Thu, May 14, 2009 5:20:33pm |
re: #168 shiek al beif salami
And how many eyebrows did she have? Up to a certain point, more is better.
Hmm, that bring to mind the Eve Theory of Hirsuteness. Did she have unibrow and small yet light mustache?
//
| 182 |
Sharmuta Thu, May 14, 2009 5:20:39pm |
And I like that he discusses Just Six Numbers.
Great video find, Thanos.
| 183 |
IslandLibertarian Thu, May 14, 2009 5:20:40pm |
| 184 |
Achilles Tang Thu, May 14, 2009 5:20:53pm |
re: #149 Banner
To this day I CAN NOT UNDERSTAND how this whole 'intelligent design' thing got started. I mean I've seen it suck in people who were once smart and intelligent. Why do people think that belief in God and Science can NOT go hand in hand? WHY?
I think the reason is that it takes a larger leap of faith to recognize one's smallness in the universe and still believe in a god. Faith through ignorance is easy, faith through knowledge takes at least as much mental effort as atheism does.
| 185 |
Zimriel Thu, May 14, 2009 5:21:03pm |
re: #167 IslandLibertarian
My ex (W/PhD) had 167IQ........I know, she told me, over and over and over........
Too many smart people believe that their high IQ scores are a mark of virtue, and feel a need to flaunt their superiority over others.
Sorry that your ex was one of these. Smart chicks are hot. Smart chicks who treat me like a well trained chimp... not so much.
| 186 |
Achilles Tang Thu, May 14, 2009 5:21:28pm |
| 187 |
shiek al beif salami Thu, May 14, 2009 5:22:55pm |
re: #172 HoosierHoops
Don't get me started on Helen Thomas. She is definitely an argument against survival of the fittest because of the reproductive advantage thing.
| 188 |
Banner Thu, May 14, 2009 5:22:59pm |
re: #161 BlueCanuck
I can sort of understand where it came from, but I honestly can NOT understand how and why people are falling for it, more now than ever! It really makes me wonder what (if -anything-) is being taught in the science classes of American Schools today.
The best description of creation in the bible I ever heard came from my 10th Grade biology teacher (Mr. Cooperman - best teacher I ever had) who said: "If I was going to explain the big bang, and all of evolution to people who had no science background or education at all, I would do it like the bible does. 'Let there be light' is the big bang simplified for people who do not have our knowledge."
So much of the bible really does seem to be a parable for what science says is how things were made. Which I have always found fascinating. Which I guess is also why I find intelligent design so incredibly insulting.
| 189 |
Querent Thu, May 14, 2009 5:23:05pm |
re: #185 Zimriel
Too many smart people believe that their high IQ scores are a mark of virtue, and feel a need to flaunt their superiority over others.
Sorry that your ex was one of these. Smart chicks are hot. Smart chicks who treat me like a well trained chimp... not so much.
upding for your vote of confidence, Zim -- now maybe i don't have to get that tight tank top that says "God I Wish These Were Brains" after all...
| 190 |
Randall Gross Thu, May 14, 2009 5:23:16pm |
re: #182 Sharmuta
Thanks, I've bookmarked that group, there's a lot of good lectures there.
| 191 |
Randall Gross Thu, May 14, 2009 5:24:18pm |
Meanwhile Atlas posts about the Australian hate arrest and hat tips Fox, no mention of Aussie Dave or Tim.
| 192 |
callahan23 Thu, May 14, 2009 5:24:32pm |
re: #166 Thanos
Well congrats then, it looks like a fine place to get one.
Splendid, bloody splendid. NCL University and MSc Course.
| 193 |
IslandLibertarian Thu, May 14, 2009 5:25:24pm |
re: #185 Zimriel
I love intelligent women, just make sure they're stable...........
but I learned a lot............
/pau hana..........
| 194 |
Achilles Tang Thu, May 14, 2009 5:26:34pm |
re: #185 Zimriel
Too many smart people believe that their high IQ scores are a mark of virtue, and feel a need to flaunt their superiority over others.
Sorry that your ex was one of these. Smart chicks are hot. Smart chicks who treat me like a well trained chimp... not so much.
My daughter recently mentioned, when asked about a recent date, that it was really nice to be out with someone who was more intelligent than her.
(I don't think she hangs out here, yet, but she is smarter than me)
| 195 |
BenghaziHoops Thu, May 14, 2009 5:27:12pm |
re: #187 shiek al beif salami
Don't get me started on Helen Thomas. She is definitely an argument against survival of the fittest because of the reproductive advantage thing.
I'm having fun on this thread...
So if Adam and Eve were hot new humans..Where did Helen come from?
I think there are some genetic scientists that have a lot to answer for..
/
| 196 |
shiek al beif salami Thu, May 14, 2009 5:27:16pm |
re: #189 Querent
My t-shirt says "Breast Implants by Double Quarter Pounders with Cheese." Way cheaper than silicone, and taste better too. BTW, I'm talking man-boobs. . .
| 197 |
DEZes Thu, May 14, 2009 5:28:02pm |
re: #196 shiek al beif salami
My t-shirt says "Breast Implants by Double Quarter Pounders with Cheese." Way cheaper than silicone, and taste better too. BTW, I'm talking man-boobs. . .
EWWWW!
/
| 198 |
BenghaziHoops Thu, May 14, 2009 5:28:24pm |
re: #194 Naso Tang
You must be very proud..Nice job as a parent
| 199 |
callahan23 Thu, May 14, 2009 5:28:50pm |
re: #196 shiek al beif salami
My t-shirt says "Breast Implants by Double Quarter Pounders with Cheese." Way cheaper than silicone, and taste better too. BTW, I'm talking man-boobs. . .
Brain BLEACH!
N O W.
| 202 |
Achilles Tang Thu, May 14, 2009 5:29:37pm |
re: #198 HoosierHoops
You must be very proud..Nice job as a parent
Thank you. I am (we are), and I haven't mentioned her sister yet. :)
| 203 |
DEZes Thu, May 14, 2009 5:29:40pm |
re: #195 HoosierHoops
I'm having fun on this thread...
So if Adam and Eve were hot new humans..Where did Helen come from?
I think there are some genetic scientists that have a lot to answer for..
/
Evolution branches out, and Helen hit alot of ugly branches on her way up.
| 204 |
BenghaziHoops Thu, May 14, 2009 5:29:52pm |
re: #196 shiek al beif salami
My t-shirt says "Breast Implants by Double Quarter Pounders with Cheese." Way cheaper than silicone, and taste better too. BTW, I'm talking man-boobs. . .
The coolest T-shirt I've ever seen.. Worn by a really really cute girl..Said this..
You can't be first..But you might be next
| 205 |
DEZes Thu, May 14, 2009 5:30:32pm |
re: #200 Zimriel
That was a EWWWW heard 'round the world.
Like millions of voices crying out in terror.
| 207 |
callahan23 Thu, May 14, 2009 5:31:19pm |
re: #203 DEZes
Evolution branches out, and Helen hit alot of ugly branches on her way
updown.
Ftfy
Gravity tends to pull you down. ;-)
| 208 |
DEZes Thu, May 14, 2009 5:31:36pm |
re: #204 HoosierHoops
The coolest T-shirt I've ever seen.. Worn by a really really cute girl..Said this..
You can't be first..But you might be next
Next is good. ;)
| 209 |
lawhawk Thu, May 14, 2009 5:31:52pm |
Gee, just found out that a NYC public school my brother in law works at is closed due to swine flu. They're closed tomorrow and all of next week.
The flu isn't over, but the number of cases at these schools is cause for concern and the City isn't taking chances on having it spread even further.
| 210 |
Gus Thu, May 14, 2009 5:31:53pm |
re: #185 Zimriel
Too many smart people believe that their high IQ scores are a mark of virtue, and feel a need to flaunt their superiority over others.
Sorry that your ex was one of these. Smart chicks are hot. Smart chicks who treat me like a well trained chimp... not so much.
I never encountered anyone that advertised their IQ. I've met people that would always go out of their way to prove how smart they were in trying to turn every little event or observation into an intellectual exercise. Usually ending up being just a boring lecture.
IQ of course doesn't measure artistic or musical ability nor mental stability and performance potential. Everything varies. I know my IQ but never found it useful. I do know that it's gone down since my younger days if the online test are accurate. They're rather boring tests to take.
| 212 |
Spare O'Lake Thu, May 14, 2009 5:32:10pm |
re: #204 HoosierHoops
The coolest T-shirt I've ever seen.. Worn by a really really cute girl..Said this..
You can't be first..But you might be next
There is something vaguely unattractive about being told to get in line.
| 213 |
DEZes Thu, May 14, 2009 5:32:21pm |
re: #207 callahan23
Ftfy
Gravity tends to pull you down. ;-)
she hit the rest of the branches on her way down. ;)
| 214 |
Randall Gross Thu, May 14, 2009 5:32:35pm |
re: #192 callahan23
Ag is a great field to be in right now, there's a rising demand for food.
| 215 |
researchok Thu, May 14, 2009 5:33:38pm |
re: #17 Sharmuta
Excellent remarks.
I would add that unless and until 'creationism' is subject to the same scientific scrutiny as evolution this phony debate is absurd.
Further, it is interesting to note that while there are some religious scientists (of all faiths) that embrace creationism, the vast majority are pointedly silent on the subject.
There is no schism between faith in God and evolution. In fact, as a believer, I consider evolution to be spectacular evidence of God, the miracle of Creation and the laws of nature.
| 216 |
shiek al beif salami Thu, May 14, 2009 5:34:22pm |
re: #205 DEZes
I thought that in our brave new world, we wouldn't be judged by the colour of our skin, or the size of it.
/ Hanging head in shame
| 217 |
Sharmuta Thu, May 14, 2009 5:34:56pm |
re: #151 shiek al beif salami
One way to do it would be to identify yourself as "Designer," then underneath it, print "I.Q. 167"
LMAO!
| 218 |
LGoPs Thu, May 14, 2009 5:35:07pm |
re: #214 Thanos
Ag is a great field to be in right now, there's a rising demand for food.
Personally, I can't live without it. But that's just me.
/
| 219 |
Spare O'Lake Thu, May 14, 2009 5:36:02pm |
re: #215 researchok
Excellent remarks.
I would add that unless and until 'creationism' is subject to the same scientific scrutiny as evolution this phony debate is absurd.
Further, it is interesting to note that while there are some religious scientists (of all faiths) that embrace creationism, the vast majority are pointedly silent on the subject.
There is no schism between faith in God and evolution. In fact, as a believer, I consider evolution to be spectacular evidence of God, the miracle of Creation and the laws of nature.
How is evolution "evidence" of God or Creation?
| 220 |
DEZes Thu, May 14, 2009 5:36:05pm |
Man boobs, regardless of color or size are not fit for a boob thread.
Its simple logic.
| 222 |
shiek al beif salami Thu, May 14, 2009 5:37:19pm |
re: #216 shiek al beif salami
Oh, wait. I just re-read the contract. Nothing there about not being judged by the size of our skin.
I need to call my attorney back and have him cancel the lawsuit.
| 223 |
callahan23 Thu, May 14, 2009 5:37:28pm |
re: #214 Thanos
Ag is a great field to be in right now, there's a rising demand for food.
I am currently studying the job market in the US in that field of employment. I hope to be able to get back into my original profession as my MSC is 10 years old.
Dreams are permissible I guess. ;-)
| 224 |
Achilles Tang Thu, May 14, 2009 5:37:56pm |
re: #210 Gus 802
I never encountered anyone that advertised their IQ. I've met people that would always go out of their way to prove how smart they were in trying to turn every little event or observation into an intellectual exercise. Usually ending up being just a boring lecture.
IQ of course doesn't measure artistic or musical ability nor mental stability and performance potential. Everything varies. I know my IQ but never found it useful. I do know that it's gone down since my younger days if the online test are accurate. They're rather boring tests to take.
It's been a long time since I took one, and I suspect I would score less now, based on how fast I can calculate the change I'm due in a store, or remember a shopping list; but the usefulness of the "test" is long over by middle age in any case, when experience takes over. However I do think it has value to judge the potential of youth.
| 225 |
BenghaziHoops Thu, May 14, 2009 5:38:44pm |
re: #212 Spare O'Lake
There is something vaguely unattractive about being told to get in line.
I'm pretty sure it was a tease T-shirt...
I'm being light hearted here...
I saw a T-shirt worn by a young man at the mall that said ' the Voices in my head are telling me to hurt you'
I'm more worried about that than young girls teasing boys..
Regards
| 226 |
LGoPs Thu, May 14, 2009 5:40:00pm |
re: #223 callahan23
I am currently studying the job market in the US in that field of employment. I hope to be able to get back into my original profession as my MSC is 10 years old.
Dreams are permissible I guess. ;-)
I think Helen Thomas has a degree in Hag. Is that close enough to Ag?
/ :)
| 227 |
Vicious Babushka Thu, May 14, 2009 5:40:21pm |
re: #210 Gus 802
I never encountered anyone that advertised their IQ. I've met people that would always go out of their way to prove how smart they were in trying to turn every little event or observation into an intellectual exercise. Usually ending up being just a boring lecture.
IQ of course doesn't measure artistic or musical ability nor mental stability and performance potential. Everything varies. I know my IQ but never found it useful. I do know that it's gone down since my younger days if the online test are accurate. They're rather boring tests to take.
I once went to a Mensa meeting as a "gifted" teen. I never saw a bigger bunch of dorks and dweebs, pretentious assholes and dirty old men on the make.
| 228 |
wrenchwench Thu, May 14, 2009 5:40:35pm |
re: #225 HoosierHoops
I'm pretty sure it was a tease T-shirt...
I'm being light hearted here...
I saw a T-shirt worn by a young man at the mall that said ' the Voices in my head are telling me to hurt you'
I'm more worried about that than young girls teasing boys..
Regards
My favorite t-shirt was worn by a chubby 15 year old boy. It said, "Keep Staring. I Might Do a Trick."
| 229 |
Gus Thu, May 14, 2009 5:40:38pm |
re: #224 Naso Tang
It's been a long time since I took one, and I suspect I would score less now, based on how fast I can calculate the change I'm due in a store, or remember a shopping list; but the usefulness of the "test" is long over by middle age in any case, when experience takes over. However I do think it has value to judge the potential of youth.
Yeah, that's what it's mainly used for as a diagnostic tool for kids. At least used to be since I don't know what they use now.
| 230 |
shiek al beif salami Thu, May 14, 2009 5:40:40pm |
re: #220 DEZes
The problem with that approach is if man-boobs are outlawed, then only outlaws will have them, and children will be deprived of the privilege of seeing a fully-grown, unshaven man sleeping on the sofa. It's a species diversity issue.
| 231 |
Spare O'Lake Thu, May 14, 2009 5:41:01pm |
re: #225 HoosierHoops
I'm pretty sure it was a tease T-shirt...
I'm being light hearted here...
I saw a T-shirt worn by a young man at the mall that said ' the Voices in my head are telling me to hurt you'
I'm more worried about that than young girls teasing boys..
Regards
Teasist!
| 232 |
DEZes Thu, May 14, 2009 5:41:35pm |
re: #226 LGoPs
I think Helen Thomas has a degree in Hag. Is that close enough to Ag?
/ :)
Hag is just bad farming. ;)
| 233 |
DEZes Thu, May 14, 2009 5:42:55pm |
re: #230 shiek al beif salami
The problem with that approach is if man-boobs are outlawed, then only outlaws will have them, and children will be deprived of the privilege of seeing a fully-grown, unshaven man sleeping on the sofa. It's a species diversity issue.
Man boobs dont kill people, seeing them does.
;)
| 234 |
Gus Thu, May 14, 2009 5:43:13pm |
re: #227 Alouette
I once went to a Mensa meeting as a "gifted" teen. I never saw a bigger bunch of dorks and dweebs, pretentious assholes and dirty old men on the make.
Dirty old men at those meetings? Sounds like something that would be investigated by a local news outfit. I don't understand the social value of something like MENSA. What do they do get together and try to outdo each other?
| 235 |
pre-Boomer Marine brat Thu, May 14, 2009 5:44:01pm |
In for just a few minutes:
The first thing I do when opening a thread like this is to do a Find for "deleted".
/must be awfully quiet tonight
| 236 |
callahan23 Thu, May 14, 2009 5:44:03pm |
re: #226 LGoPs
I think Helen Thomas has a degree in Hag. Is that close enough to Ag?
/ :)
I guess she much rather has a degree in MooS (Mustered out of Service). ;-)
| 237 |
Gus Thu, May 14, 2009 5:45:03pm |
re: #233 DEZes
Man boobs dont kill people, seeing them does.
;)
When combined with very large areolas on the male it can cause immediate death.
//
| 239 |
BenghaziHoops Thu, May 14, 2009 5:45:57pm |
re: #227 Alouette
I once went to a Mensa meeting as a "gifted" teen. I never saw a bigger bunch of dorks and dweebs, pretentious assholes and dirty old men on the make.
If I tried to get into a Mensa meeting I'd get thrown out by the Bouncer...
/Wait a second! Pictures at 11.. The Hoopster kicks a Mensa bouncer's ass..
scandalous!
| 240 |
DEZes Thu, May 14, 2009 5:45:58pm |
re: #235 pre-Boomer Marine brat
In for just a few minutes:
The first thing I do when opening a thread like this is to do a Find for "deleted".
/must be awfully quiet tonight
Been a very well behaved crowd.
I think about 12 midnight will see some nut bounce of a few walls.
PDT.
| 241 |
Spare O'Lake Thu, May 14, 2009 5:46:41pm |
re: #236 callahan23
I guess she much rather has a degree in MooS (Mustered out of Service). ;-)
I do not relish the sight of her.
| 242 |
DEZes Thu, May 14, 2009 5:47:26pm |
re: #237 Gus 802
When combined with very large areolas on the male it can cause immediate death.
//
Its the acute symptoms that start very fast.
Like nausea.
| 243 |
callahan23 Thu, May 14, 2009 5:48:12pm |
| 244 |
Gus Thu, May 14, 2009 5:48:45pm |
re: #242 DEZes
Its the acute symptoms that start very fast.
Like nausea.
Have to make sure you're not operating any heavy machinery when that happens.
| 245 |
pre-Boomer Marine brat Thu, May 14, 2009 5:49:56pm |
re: #240 DEZes
Been a very well behaved crowd.
I think about 12 midnight will see some nut bounce of a few walls.
PDT.
The regular crowd is well-behaved.
It's the ... well ... you know.
| 246 |
callahan23 Thu, May 14, 2009 5:50:10pm |
re: #244 Gus 802
Have to make sure you're not operating any heavy machinery when that happens.
Like an electric nose-hair clipper.
Ouch.
| 247 |
Render Thu, May 14, 2009 5:50:30pm |
GOP Sen. hopeful heard calling Schumer 'that Jew'
[Link: www.comcast.net...]
Schumer accepted his apology. I won't.
NOTED,
R
| 248 |
shiek al beif salami Thu, May 14, 2009 5:51:15pm |
So my dog got sick and I took him to a witch doctor who told me I needed to put a picture of the Devil above where the dog sleeps, to scare aware the demons. I went home and took the doctor's advice, but the dog died anyway.
When I went to get my money back from the doctor, he asked if I did exactly what he prescribed.
"Same thing as," I said.
"Same thing as?"
"Well, I didn't have a picture of the devil, so I used a photo of Helen Thomas instead," I said.
"There's your problem: the damn dog overdosed."
| 249 |
DEZes Thu, May 14, 2009 5:51:47pm |
re: #244 Gus 802
Have to make sure you're not operating any heavy machinery when that happens.
Ah crap.
| 250 |
DEZes Thu, May 14, 2009 5:52:41pm |
re: #248 shiek al beif salami
So my dog got sick and I took him to a witch doctor who told me I needed to put a picture of the Devil above where the dog sleeps, to scare aware the demons. I went home and took the doctor's advice, but the dog died anyway.
When I went to get my money back from the doctor, he asked if I did exactly what he prescribed.
"Same thing as," I said.
"Same thing as?"
"Well, I didn't have a picture of the devil, so I used a photo of Helen Thomas instead," I said.
"There's your problem: the damn dog overdosed."
Poor animal died of shear terror.
| 251 |
Gus Thu, May 14, 2009 5:52:51pm |
| 253 |
shiek al beif salami Thu, May 14, 2009 5:54:37pm |
re: #251 Gus 802
Man-boobs aren't as bad as knee-pit hair - now that's just nasty.
| 255 |
Spare O'Lake Thu, May 14, 2009 5:55:04pm |
| 256 |
DEZes Thu, May 14, 2009 5:55:35pm |
re: #253 shiek al beif salami
Man-boobs aren't as bad as knee-pit hair - now that's just nasty.
Knee pit hair? now theres a sight I have been spared.
| 257 |
Vicious Babushka Thu, May 14, 2009 5:55:42pm |
re: #234 Gus 802
Dirty old men at those meetings? Sounds like something that would be investigated by a local news outfit. I don't understand the social value of something like MENSA. What do they do get together and try to outdo each other?
I went to two meetings. The first was a "general" meeting where I was the youngest person there. We all went to some exotic restaurant and everybody ordered a different weird item from the menu so we could compare weird foods. I don't remember what I ordered, but I sat next to this disgusting old man who breathed down my neck, and I sure did not enjoy this outing. Everybody's food looked gross. Eww.
The second meeting they tried to get me to meet other "special teens." I did not want to go, but my mother insisted that I go, even though the first meeting was so horrible. All I remember of this meeting is there was one other guy, named Turk, who went to the same school I did, he was a year ahead of me and he was a super dweeb. The other kids were all from snooty elite private schools. Turk and I were the only Jews.
This was back in the 60's, nobody knew from such stuff as "sexual harassment" and "ethnic intimidation."
| 258 |
Killgore Trout Thu, May 14, 2009 5:55:59pm |
re: #247 Render
Yeah, I saw that one earlier. Looks pretty bad.
| 260 |
callahan23 Thu, May 14, 2009 5:57:01pm |
re: #252 Zimriel
Mmm, moobs.
But can you hold a pencil under there?
It'll stay well in place there.
Oogh, forget all about it.
| 261 |
shiek al beif salami Thu, May 14, 2009 5:58:39pm |
I'm certain that it is now springtime - I just found a new box of Otter Pops in the freezer.
| 262 |
Spare O'Lake Thu, May 14, 2009 5:59:16pm |
re: #258 Killgore Trout
Yeah, I saw that one earlier. Looks pretty bad.
"I ought not to have referred to it at all," Hendren told the AP. "When I referred to him as Jewish, it wasn't because I don't like Jewish people."
Yeah, right. It must have been because of his fondness for the people of the book.
| 263 |
BenghaziHoops Thu, May 14, 2009 5:59:47pm |
re: #257 Alouette
I'm so sorry for you..sounds terrible...
Kind regards
| 264 |
Gus Thu, May 14, 2009 6:01:20pm |
re: #257 Alouette
I would imagine it would be boring. Just to get together with a bunch of other kids with some pervert looming over you. I can see if there was a defined structure or projects and project teams. But just getting together on the basis of IQ scores seems like a waste of time. I can see why you didn't want to go back.
As a kid I just wanted to either play with my brother, play guitar, ride my bike, build models and draw (pencil drawings) and keep to myself.
| 265 |
shiek al beif salami Thu, May 14, 2009 6:02:13pm |
re: #262 Spare O'Lake
It's the old "many of my friends are minorities."
| 266 |
Zimriel Thu, May 14, 2009 6:02:22pm |
re: #262 Spare O'Lake
Yeah, right. It must have been because of his fondness for the people of the book.
A lot of choice words come to mind when thinking of Schumer. Why use that one?
| 267 |
Cato the Elder Thu, May 14, 2009 6:03:43pm |
re: #247 Render
GOP Sen. hopeful heard calling Schumer 'that Jew'
[Link: www.comcast.net...]
Schumer accepted his apology. I won't.
NOTED,
R
According to Pamela, Jewish Democrats are now JINOs - Jews in name only.
Yes, she has started hurling that epithet.
| 268 |
reine.de.tout Thu, May 14, 2009 6:03:58pm |
re: #167 IslandLibertarian
My ex (W/PhD) had 167IQ........I know, she told me, over and over and over........
At comment #167, you tell us about your ex with a 167 IQ.
was your ex named "Charlye Sarte" by any chance?
(that's the now blocked poster who boasted of her IQ and played 3-D chess in a 2 dimensional world, or something like that)
| 269 |
DEZes Thu, May 14, 2009 6:04:41pm |
re: #268 reine.de.tout
At comment #167, you tell us about your ex with a 167 IQ.
was your ex named "Charlye Sarte" by any chance?
(that's the now blocked poster who boasted of her IQ and played 3-D chess in a 2 dimensional world, or something like that)
Good catch.
| 270 |
BenghaziHoops Thu, May 14, 2009 6:05:03pm |
re: #268 reine.de.tout
At comment #167, you tell us about your ex with a 167 IQ.
was your ex named "Charlye Sarte" by any chance?
(that's the now blocked poster who boasted of her IQ and played 3-D chess in a 2 dimensional world, or something like that)
Hey you! hope you are doing fine..How is the cookbook going?
| 271 |
Gus Thu, May 14, 2009 6:05:18pm |
re: #267 Cato the Elder
According to Pamela, Jewish Democrats are now JINOs - Jews in name only.
Yes, she has started hurling that epithet.
That woman has no scruples.
| 272 |
BlueCanuck Thu, May 14, 2009 6:06:06pm |
re: #267 Cato the Elder
According to Pamela, Jewish Democrats are now JINOs - Jews in name only.
Yes, she has started hurling that epithet.
Well, guess she has been hanging out with the wrong crowd too long now.
/or her true colours are finally showing.
| 273 |
reine.de.tout Thu, May 14, 2009 6:06:10pm |
re: #270 HoosierHoops
Hey you! hope you are doing fine..How is the cookbook going?
Cookbook is coming along; all the files are safe after my hard-drive crashed, thanks to GOOGLE DOCS, which is where I moved them at the suggestion of FlakMusic.
| 275 |
reine.de.tout Thu, May 14, 2009 6:07:03pm |
re: #274 buzzsawmonkey
Everybody knows about the Scopes Monkey Trial, but nobody ever talks about the Listerine Monkey Trial.
*groan*
| 276 |
hazzyday Thu, May 14, 2009 6:07:05pm |
If a human's conception of thought and religion evolves, the god of a heart or mind designs from the bottom up with the hope of intelligent reflection. with the top down. Consciousness becomes a component.
| 277 |
pre-Boomer Marine brat Thu, May 14, 2009 6:08:09pm |
re: #267 Cato the Elder
According to Pamela, Jewish Democrats are now JINOs - Jews in name only.
Yes, she has started hurling that epithet.
*barf*
| 278 |
shiek al beif salami Thu, May 14, 2009 6:08:20pm |
I hadn't even thought about that until you mentioned it just now.
Lot's of questions that still need answers, for sure.
| 280 |
BenghaziHoops Thu, May 14, 2009 6:10:52pm |
re: #273 reine.de.tout
Cookbook is coming along; all the files are safe after my hard-drive crashed, thanks to GOOGLE DOCS, which is where I moved them at the suggestion of FlakMusic.
Great news! HD crashes really suck...
Winston the dog has developed a little cough..Gotta take him to the Vet..
/If I find out he has been smoking in the barn he is in deep shit..:)
| 281 |
reine.de.tout Thu, May 14, 2009 6:12:33pm |
re: #280 HoosierHoops
Great news! HD crashes really suck...
Winston the dog has developed a little cough..Gotta take him to the Vet..
/If I find out he has been smoking in the barn he is in deep shit..:)
Oh, yes, get that checked out!
Dogs don't usually cough . . . hope it isn't something serious.
I'm sure he's not been smoking in the barn.
| 282 |
Vicious Babushka Thu, May 14, 2009 6:15:07pm |
re: #268 reine.de.tout
At comment #167, you tell us about your ex with a 167 IQ.
was your ex named "Charlye Sarte" by any chance?
(that's the now blocked poster who boasted of her IQ and played 3-D chess in a 2 dimensional world, or something like that)
Quite a few years ago I read a novel about a breakaway cult of "ultra-Mensa" who were into serial killing. The author was Jonathan Kellerman. I can't remember the name of the book, but it was one of the Delaware novels.
| 283 |
researchok Thu, May 14, 2009 6:16:16pm |
re: #219 Spare O'Lake
To me, evolution is elegant, precise and profound. My faith in God more than allows Him those attributes and for me, that is clearly evident. 'God does not play dice with the universe', is to me the perfect descriptor.
For me, evolution, science and nature are proof of His being, Now, just because others may not share my point of view bothers me not in the least.
Just because a sunken galleon filled with treasure is yet to be located does not mean it does not exist.
Some choose to believe, others do not.
| 284 |
tokyobk Thu, May 14, 2009 6:16:49pm |
re: #184 Naso Tang
Belief in evolution and in a creator do not exclude each other, but belief in science and literal belief in the founding documents of all the major religions is, imo, impossible.
But I also don't like it when scientists try to disprove a creator or religion just because what humans have come up with so far is so suspiciously a product of the times they were created and the limited knowledge pool of those times (as well as political expediences).
| 285 |
shiek al beif salami Thu, May 14, 2009 6:18:36pm |
re: #284 tokyobk
Everybody must believe in something; I believe I'll have another piece of pie.
| 286 |
BenghaziHoops Thu, May 14, 2009 6:19:10pm |
re: #282 Alouette
Quite a few years ago I read a novel about a breakaway cult of "ultra-Mensa" who were into serial killing. The author was Jonathan Kellerman. I can't remember the name of the book, but it was one of the Delaware novels.
I think what we are talking about was a poster last winter here that was a total snob and in making his argument claimed his IQ was 167..So he must be right..Classic posts...
/Never ever ever ever ever claim on LGF you have an IQ of 167..Go lower or higher..Never 167..LOL...
| 288 |
tokyobk Thu, May 14, 2009 6:26:33pm |
I get into this with my friend who is a rabbi all the time. He really believes the world is 6,000 years old. Never mind the stars in the sky are older than 6,000 years by far. But, ultimately he wants to be happy and the idea of god is comforting. So there is no point arguing it.
| 289 |
reine.de.tout Thu, May 14, 2009 6:29:34pm |
re: #282 Alouette
Quite a few years ago I read a novel about a breakaway cult of "ultra-Mensa" who were into serial killing. The author was Jonathan Kellerman. I can't remember the name of the book, but it was one of the Delaware novels.
Survival of the Fittest.
I have read all of Kellerman's Alex Delaware novels. Love 'em.
| 290 |
Spare O'Lake Thu, May 14, 2009 6:52:33pm |
re: #283 researchok
To me, evolution is elegant, precise and profound. My faith in God more than allows Him those attributes and for me, that is clearly evident. 'God does not play dice with the universe', is to me the perfect descriptor.
For me, evolution, science and nature are proof of His being, Now, just because others may not share my point of view bothers me not in the least.
Just because a sunken galleon filled with treasure is yet to be located does not mean it does not exist.
Some choose to believe, others do not.
Believe what you will, but it is not evidence-based, it is faith-based.
| 291 |
Hawk Thu, May 14, 2009 7:18:22pm |
tokyobk : "Belief in evolution and in a creator do not exclude each other"
Exactly. I have posted this here before. I believe in a creator AND I believe in science. I never had creationism taught to me in school and was only later really exposed to religion in my 20's. I am one of Randy Moore's exceptions ;-)
"...but belief in science and literal belief in the founding documents of all the major religions is, imo, impossible."
And when I state my beliefs to many on the religious side of the aisle, I cringe because I feel like I am about to get stoned as a heretic.
(And no, I do not believe the earth is 6,000 years old. GEEEZ!)
"But I also don't like it when scientists try to disprove a creator or religion just because what humans have come up with so far..."
And this is why I find some of the postings here almost verging on the hypocritical.
Baring this thread, I wonder how many here would answer "YES!" when asked if they believe in intelligent life on other planets.
Yet we have NO proof that intelligent life is on another planet.
(Heck, I question if it really exists here *grin* depending on the definition of intelligent.)
Mathematical/Statistical probability yes. Proof. NO!
I use the word hypocritical because of the logic some I have debated with face to face as well as some here - Some do not believe in a creator because their is NO PROOF, but some of those very same people will gladly say "Yes, there is intelligent life on other planets" without a shred of proof.
And the ones I despise the most? Those atheists who run around parroting the talking points they have heard with a few technical terms thrown in who can not even begin to intelligently discuss WHICH theory of the big ban they believe in, have a clue what the term abiogenesis is (nor discuss any ideas there) and haven't the foggiest idea that there really is a difference between micro and macro evolution.
But yet I am instantly wrong for actually believing in science AND a creator and they can't talk on the subjects.
I look down at those people as much as those here look down at those on the religious side who blindly follow what they are taught. Both types are sheep and both types point at the other side and scream how wrong they are.
HoosierHoops : "Go lower or higher..Never 167..LOL..."
There must be a joke there that I missed. Why not 167?
I just remember Night Court (Season 6 Episode 10) when they had their IQs tested and Bull's IQ was 181. He then says something like "Oh wait, its upside down..."
| 292 |
AndyMacOP Thu, May 14, 2009 7:56:43pm |
I tried to get through the video. Had to stop. The snarkiness against the Book of Genesis and the Kentucky Crazy Museum was funny, but a bit much. What is profoundly annoying is that there are too many good scientists who seem to be required to take a time-out from authentic research in order to write books defending proper scientific method, research and discovery. I just wish the Young Earth Creationists would just give it a rest.
But notice this: Many in the YEC camp appear to be more interested in defending a 6,000 year old universe than proclaiming the message of Jesus Christ which explicitly requires loving and caring for every human being! Jesus actually spoke those words. Yes, I know Jesus would quote from Genesis, that is because it contains truth for the believer. The truth that there is a loving God that set it all in motion, sustains material existence and guides the universe. It is what we call natural law, and it is something to behold!
I know we all waste a little money here and there, but how about passing a few of the dollars it took to build the plastic Adam and Eve to the local woman's shelter or soup kitchen? Now that is a miracle!
| 293 |
Achilles Tang Thu, May 14, 2009 8:10:12pm |
re: #284 tokyobk
Not sure I follow all that, but I don't think scientists try to disprove a creator since one cannot disprove anything that cannot be proven. What they may do is disprove proofs of a creator (aka creationism/ID).
| 294 |
Achilles Tang Thu, May 14, 2009 8:16:28pm |
re: #291 Hawk
Downding. Too many slogans posing as arguments. You should read more before you vent.
| 295 |
machalot Thu, May 14, 2009 9:19:17pm |
re: #293 Naso Tang
one cannot disprove anything that cannot be proven.
Not so. Suppose I were immortal and I were going to live for all eternity. I could never prove that I will, since it's in the future, and I might just live for a really long time. However, if I ever die, it will be disproved.
| 296 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Thu, May 14, 2009 9:32:33pm |
Charles -
I thank you for repeatedly championing material like this.
That is all.
// Watermelon in Easter Hay
| 298 |
Sharmuta Thu, May 14, 2009 10:37:03pm |
re: #291 Hawk
I have posted this here before.
Really?
Hawk
Registered since: Aug 20, 2006 at 2:22 pm
No. of comments posted: 5
No. of links posted: 0
When was that?
| 299 |
Richie Fri, May 15, 2009 3:39:21am |
I like Michael Shermer but he's not really a great orator. It usually feels like he's preaching to the choir and to get through to younger kids he's going to have to punch up his speeches and make them more engaging for the MTV kids.
| 300 |
John Neverbend Fri, May 15, 2009 5:28:51am |
The National Academy of Sciences has produced a new edition of "Science, Evolution and Creationism" which can be downloaded from their web site.
You have to register, but the PDF attachment is available free of charge in Spanish and English.
[Link: www.nap.edu...]
| 301 |
Hawk Fri, May 15, 2009 5:57:50am |
@Sharmuta : Yes! I have. And having tried to find it, I am not wasting more time to try and prove I did. I don't post here much as is indicated (5 times since Aug 20, 2006). (I am not sure why you felt the need to point that out but hey - maybe you were bored.)
Are you insinuating I am lying because I don't post here every breathing moment I have? If not, that is sure how it comes across.
What I said then and now is that science and religion do not have to be mutually exclusive. I think the wording was more along the lines that "science is discovering HOW God did it."
If the posting is NOT there, then I want to know WHY it was deleted. I had replies to it and it was on ONE OF THE MANY threads on intelligent design.
@Thanos :"Strawman"
How so? Were you there for the debates I participated in? Were you a fly listening? Or somehow monitoring my TCP traffic? If so, please provide the packet captures and/or recordings.
Are you one of the ones that believe in intelligent life without proof but not God? Sorry - that is not a strawman - it is the same logic and it is being selective on your beliefs and not applying the same criteria.
Downed returned. Thanks.
"You should read more before..."
And perhaps you should take some logic classes before you reply.
I also recommend that you read "How to Win Friends and Influence People" by Dale Carnegie. You can get your copy from Amazon for $7.99US. I think you'll find it interesting and learn something.
@Naso Tang: Your response makes no sense. Slogans?
Just pointing out logic issues. Logic 101. No slogans. If that upsets you then I don't know what to say. And like I said - as far as the debates/discussions I have been in - you have not been there - except possibly the one other time I posted on this matter at this site.
I just grow tired of 'holier than thou atheist' who beat their drums while keeping a narrow and closed minds while pointing fingers.
@AndyMacOP: "Many in the YEC camp appear to be more interested in defending a 6,000 year old universe..."
I know that one well. When I brought up several things to someone I know well from church - she gave me this look ... and almost immediately poo-pooed the idea. Based on the reaction, she must have thought I was on drugs.
THEN ... her son did some studying and found MANY ways the earth has been dated & the problems with each. Low and behold, they all indicate something significantly greater than 6,000 years ago. Suddenly she thought this was INTERESTING news ... go figure. I just find it 'funny' that in one breath the same people will take things so literal in the bible but in the next breath talk about how something else was just an example or an allegory.
| 302 |
Sharmuta Fri, May 15, 2009 7:23:09am |
re: #301 Hawk
Are you insinuating I am lying because I don't post here every breathing moment I have? If not, that is sure how it comes across.
No- I'm not insinuating that at all.
There is a discrepancy in your record. Yes- I looked, because I wanted to see your previous comments since you were the one who brought it to our attention. Having not found them, I thought I'd ask when these comments were made.
| 303 |
Jim D Fri, May 15, 2009 7:39:07am |
re: #291 Hawk
I use the word hypocritical because of the logic some I have debated with face to face as well as some here - Some do not believe in a creator because their is NO PROOF, but some of those very same people will gladly say "Yes, there is intelligent life on other planets" without a shred of proof.
This is funny. You are saying that if a person holds belief A without proof and simultaneously denies belief B, also not proved, he is a hypocrite.
So Christians that aren't Scientologists are hypocrites. And so are Jews that don't believe in the Easter bunny.
I like it.
re: #291 Hawk
And the ones I despise the most? Those atheists who run around parroting the talking points they have heard with a few technical terms thrown in who can not even begin to intelligently discuss WHICH theory of the big ban they believe in, have a clue what the term abiogenesis is (nor discuss any ideas there) and haven't the foggiest idea that there really is a difference between micro and macro evolution.
Atheist talking points? I must not be on that mailing list. Could you elaborate?
And you despise these guys the most? Shouldn't you be more unhappy with the creationists that routinely lie and make long debunked claims about evolution. You know, the ones that are attempting to subvert the constitution to force their religious beliefs on everyone else. It doesn't bother you more that all the money being spent by the Discovery Institute and on silly creationist museums is not being spent on feeding and sheltering the poor?
| 304 |
Throbert McGee Fri, May 15, 2009 8:49:04am |
re: #11 zombie
There is no case against Intelligent Design. Because ... theological concepts [are] outside the framework of science.
Haven't watched the hour-long video yet, but as soon as I saw the subtitle ("The Case Against ID"), I had the same objection that zombie does: presenting scientific evidence in favor of evolution is not the same as making a case against ID, because ID needs to be attacked on philosophic grounds. (You can best make a case against ID by making a more general case against the legitimacy of "god of the gaps" arguments, since that's what ID is.)
| 306 |
The Sanity Inspector Fri, May 15, 2009 9:34:55am |
Very good lecture, thanks for posting.
| 307 |
Throbert McGee Fri, May 15, 2009 9:57:58am |
re: #305 buzzsawmonkey
BTW, Throbert, as an OT, I regret that you found it necessary to downding my posts a week or so ago in that gay-topic thread. Sometime or other--not today--it would be interesting to revisit the topic with you before it degenerated, as that discussion did, into threshold declarations of outrage which had to be responded to but which skewed the actual topic.
No worries, BSM. In general, I was downdinging not because I completely disagreed with you, but because I thought you slipped into some mighty uncharitable over-generalizations at times.
For example, your criticism of the "Coming-Out Industry" (which, admittedly, is often a mawkish exercise in selling gay self-help books) had some good insights, but I looked in vain for the slightest acknowledgment of how psychologically isolating "The Closet" used to be, and why "The Gay Ghetto" would've seemed like an appealing alternative. (I use the past tense because I think that the easy social networking made possible by the Innerwebs has substantially changed the implications of being "closeted".)
But anyway, I'd definitely be interested in revisiting the topic the next time a related thread comes up, or on some open thread.
| 308 |
Hawk Fri, May 15, 2009 10:22:22am |
@Sharmuta:
Fair enough. I wish I could find them AND wished this site had a better way to track your postings. Since I did not find anything relevant searching for "hawk", I also glanced through some of the more obvious threads and not finding anything. My life is busy enough and I don't have all day to look for something that I know I posted here since one of the respondents responded about "fellow lizards" (pretty much narrows that for me since I don't post to MANY sites (about 3 regularly).
@Jim: I was simply pointing out the logic failure there. I think your example is flawed.
Person A believes there is no God since there is no proof
Person A believes that there is intelligent life ignoring the fact that there is no proof.
What label would you stick on it then? Maybe hypocrite is the wrong word but if you are going to site your disbelief in God as being based on fact and evidence, shouldn't then your belief of intelligent life elsewhere be based on the same criteria? To me it does seem a bit hypocritical. You want it both ways when it suits you.
"Atheist talking points?" HAHAHAHA mailing list! I see you have a sense of humor ;-)
Yes. I am saying that there are some atheist (not all mind you) that go around pointing at Christians (and other faiths) who can only spout "talking points." By that I mean when you push them on the issue, they have no clue and can not intelligently discuss it (I have had more than a few ask "What do you mean WHICH THEORY of the big bang? There is only one!" ummm NO. Check again.
You make some valid points about those of the faith BUT my post was NOT about those people if you re-read it. I was specifically addressing atheist.
BUT since you bring it up - yes those people annoy the crap out of me. There is A LOT being done in the name of religion that bothers me. But my post was not on that or else it would have been MUCH LONGER! ;-)
Simply put, the young earth people get really pissed when you push them (for fun mind you) for example: Shouldn't it be 7000 years? Or is God still resting? I've been told I'll burn in hell for questioning things - GREAT! If that is the way it is - then let me go but I am going to question.
As far as shoving religion down someone's throat, I'll be the first to say that I WOULD NOT want a theocracy here in the US. I would be grouped in with non-Christians just for simply questioning and chances are that the theocracy would not be the faith I follow (What if it were catholic or Mormon? I'm neither).
The whole point I am getting is simply this: Do not just accept what you are told. Question. Study. READ! Do not just take "talking points" and run with them - how many times do we see this very thing in political debates?
And to clarify, to me this applies to both believers and non-believers.
I have some friends who are atheists and we have some good discussion on things. But that is it - DISCUSSION. Not me trying to quote scripture or convert them. Generally, I think we each come away with something.
For the record, (again) I grew up on science and I am not saying it is bull in any way. I just have a different way of looking at it.
When you push a lot of Christians on it, they almost have the view of 'God sneezed and it was." - No science. No planning. Nothing. It just was and how dare you question it!
*THAT* is not me.
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