One Woman’s Death

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A young woman allegedly shot to death in Iran is becoming a symbol of the protests, after her dying moments were caught on a mobile phone video camera. Wikipedia already has a page for her, identifying her as Neda Salehi Agha Soltan. The gruesome video has been shown repeatedly on CNN, but if you haven’t seen it there are links at the bottom of the Wikipedia page.

TIME Magazine’s Robin Wright has an interesting article on the possible far-reaching consequences of One Woman’s Death.

An Associated Press story quotes an anonymous source who says that the Iranian government barred Neda’s family from holding a public funeral: Amateur video turns woman into icon of Iran unrest.

People posting the video say the woman was shot by a member of the pro-government Basij militia. That information could not be independently verified: Reporters for foreign news organizations have been barred from reporting on the streets of Tehran, and the Iranian government has not released any information about her death.

An acquaintance of her family said Neda worked part-time at a travel agency in Iran and that the government barred the family from holding a public funeral Monday. The acquaintance spoke on condition of anonymity because she feared government reprisal.

UPDATE at 6/22/09 10:46:41 am:

Nico Pitney at HuffPo has a translation of an interview with Neda’s fiance, who’s insistent that Neda was not a supporter of either Mousavi or Ahmadinejad: Iran Updates (VIDEO): Live-Blogging The Uprising.

Mr. Makan also commented on fake pictures of videos claiming to be Neda at various sites:“I was looking at some sites including ‘iReport’. There was a picture of a young woman with green signs from previous calm demonstrations and had claimed it was Neda before being shot. These pictures have no relation to the event. It seems that Mr. Mousavi’s supporters are trying to portray Neda as one of his supporters. This is not so. Neda was incredibly close to me and she was never supportive of either two groups. Neda wanted freedom and freedom for all.”

Jump to bottom

573 comments
1 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 9:53:57am

*salute*

... and many prayers

2 CIA Reject  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 9:54:13am

G*d rest her soul.

3 Sharmuta  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 9:54:24am

She will not be forgotten.

4 albusteve  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 9:54:37am

revolutions nees symbols...icons

5 Dianna  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 9:54:43am

The horrifying thing about this is that I immediately began thinking about paliwood. I don't like being so cynical.

6 jcm  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 9:56:35am

One image sometimes is all it takes.

7 CIA Reject  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 9:58:37am

re: #6 jcm

One image sometimes is all it takes.

Indeed

8 A.W.  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 9:58:47am

Gotta say, Charles, i have been disappointed in your non-coverage of the iranian stuff. i mean, sheesh this has the potential to solve the iran problem for us and you barely feign interest. that story is like 2 days old. the new story is that they are getting ready to have a funeral for the "Angel of Iran" as Neda is called by many and the regime has banned memorials in all mosques. so they are getting ready to have an illegal memorial service. its a big deal and bluntly you are 2 days behind.

9 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 9:59:12am

I saw that photo on the front page of the Wall Street Journal and was deeply moved. The bravery of the Iranian Youth in the face of such cynicism and brutality is admirable beyond words. The world cannot allow their blood to be shed in vain.

10 Sharmuta  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 9:59:24am

re: #8 A.W.

WTF are you talking about?

11 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 9:59:37am
12 albusteve  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:00:34am

international arms dealers must be getting juiced....if this revolution goes underground, which I presume it will, these people ar gonna need guns, ammo and lots of C4

13 slartybartfast  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:00:47am

I watched the video early this morning and kept thinking of the President's words, "How they approach and deal with people who are, through peaceful means, trying to be heard will, I think, send a pretty clear signal to the international community about what Iran is and is not."

I don't know about BHO, but it's pretty clear to me...

14 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:01:05am

One of the earlier tweets today said there was an "unofficial" memorial gathering for Neda, in spite of the gov't orders to cancel her memorial.

15 Sharmuta  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:01:07am

re: #8 A.W.

The front page is full of stories on Iran- WTF are you talking about?!

16 Dar ul Harb  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:01:10am

Sadly, her death likely won't be the only one that results in a memorable image of the Iranian regime's response to the protests.

17 opnion  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:01:10am

THere are two stories circulating, one is that a roof top sniper shot her, the other is that it was a Basij riding by on a motorcycle.
It really deosn't matter that much which is accurate, because either is murder by the Regime.

18 Kragar  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:01:34am

There is some sort of irony in a woman's death being a symbol to stand against one of the most vile misogynistic regimes on the planet.

19 Noam Sayin'  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:01:38am

Oh, good - a troll. Just in time for lunch.

20 Irish Rose  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:01:43am

re: #8 A.W.

Gotta say, Charles, i have been disappointed in your non-coverage of the iranian stuff. i mean, sheesh this has the potential to solve the iran problem for us and you barely feign interest. that story is like 2 days old. the new story is that they are getting ready to have a funeral for the "Angel of Iran" as Neda is called by many and the regime has banned memorials in all mosques. so they are getting ready to have an illegal memorial service. its a big deal and bluntly you are 2 days behind.

Pass the BBQ sauce.

21 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:02:08am

re: #8 A.W.

Then I would advise you to go somewhere else.

22 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:02:16am

re: #8 A.W.

If you would bother to read thru the many threads about Iran, you would find that people here have been keeping each other updated by the minute on the Iran news, and everything you just said has been covered.

23 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:03:16am

re: #8 A.W.

Gotta say, Charles, i have been disappointed in your non-coverage of the iranian stuff. i mean, sheesh this has the potential to solve the iran problem for us and you barely feign interest. that story is like 2 days old. the new story is that they are getting ready to have a funeral for the "Angel of Iran" as Neda is called by many and the regime has banned memorials in all mosques. so they are getting ready to have an illegal memorial service. its a big deal and bluntly you are 2 days behind.


and what is your suggestion on how to do it better?

24 That's Mr. President to you  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:03:48am

I think this event illustrates the unfortunate and high costs of violent unrest in the middle east - a place that my administration is committed to stabilizing.

With that in mind, I am calling on all Iranians to stop using their bodies to impede the motion of projectiles fired by authorities of the Iranian Government who are the sovereign powers in Iran and with whom I refuse to "meddle", "bait" or otherwise entangle.

Otherwise, they might get violent.

25 pat  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:04:16am

Neda will haunt the Mad Mullahs

26 Kragar  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:04:23am

re: #23 _RememberTonyC

and what is your suggestion on how to do it better?

Post snark if present comments are any sign.

27 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:04:41am
28 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:05:05am

re: #8 A.W.

There are 10 posts on the front page about Iran.

Bite me.

29 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:05:42am

re: #26 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Post snark if present comments are any sign.


I usually get no response from LGF "critics" when I ask such questions. They're like many on the political left ... lots of whining and no solutions.

30 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:06:14am

re: #24 That's Mr. President to you

Actually, you "satire" is not funny when it is used as a mirror against a thread of this nature. This thread is about a woman who, as most evidence suggest, was brutally murdered by her government because she disagreed with the outcome of an election.

Personally, why don't you take this humor over to an open thread, where it would possible fit. otherwise, stuff it idiot.

31 wrenchwench  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:06:38am
...And she is different from Cro-Magnon man
She's different from Anne Boleyn
She is different from the Rosenbergs
And from the unknown Jew
She's different from the unknown Nicaraguan
Half superstar, half victim
She's a victor star, conceptually new
And she is different from the Dodo
And from the Kankanbono
She's different from the Aztec
And from the Cherokee
She's everybody's sister
She's symbolic of our failure
She's the one in fifty million
Who can help us to be free
Because she died on TV
And I grieve for my sister

Roger Waters Watching TV lyrics

Youtube Video
32 realwest  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:06:45am

re: #28 Charles

There are 10 posts on the front page about Iran.

Bite me.


Better yet, delete him and ban him.
Karma: -132
Registered since: Nov 26, 2007 at 9:53 am
(Logged in)

No. of comments posted: 495
No. of links posted: 1

33 Golem Akbar  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:06:46am

The lefties are having a harder time defending the Mullahs. Carter is starting to squirm. I wonder how soon it will be before Obama starts sounding like our former president Bush on Iran? I guess we need to keep an eye on Hillary (sock-puppet that she is).

34 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:06:54am

re: #24 That's Mr. President to you

I think this event illustrates the unfortunate and high costs of violent unrest in the middle east - a place that my administration is committed to stabilizing.

With that in mind, I am calling on all Iranians to stop using their bodies to impede the motion of projectiles fired by authorities of the Iranian Government who are the sovereign powers in Iran and with whom I refuse to "meddle", "bait" or otherwise entangle.

Otherwise, they might get violent.


dude ... I know you were being sarcastic .... at least I hope so.

35 wahabicorridor  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:07:04am

re: #28 Charles

Maybe someone should teach it how to scroll down?

36 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:07:34am

re: #8 A.W.

You forgot your sarc tag? Or idiot?

Which?

37 albusteve  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:07:45am

we're gonna need a diseased walrus over here pretty soon

38 pat  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:07:56am

Google now reports 384,000 hits for Neda Iran. Yesterday it was at 250,000.

39 realwest  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:08:02am

re: #35 wahabicorridor
Why bother - he/sheit obviously doesn't read LGF or follow any of the comments here.

40 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:08:06am

re: #34 _RememberTonyC

dude ... I know you were being sarcastic .... at least I hope so.

It doesn't really matter, it's not funny on a thread like this. Really bad taste, and that's coming from the king of bad taste, me.

41 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:08:29am

re: #24 That's Mr. President to you

Normally, I love your posts. Keep them up... but bad form here.

42 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:09:00am

re: #40 Walter L. Newton

When Walter is offended... pretty good barometer.

43 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:09:01am

re: #37 albusteve

we're gonna need a diseased walrus over here pretty soon

Explain that reference for me, least I die before I find out what you are talking about?

44 Dianna  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:09:13am

re: #28 Charles

There are 10 posts on the front page about Iran.

Bite me.

Thank you for being so blunt.

45 Irish Rose  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:09:36am

Fuck off, troll.

46 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:09:51am

re: #8 A.W.

Funeral?
She's already been buried, you twit.
YOU should keep up-to-date!

47 Rednek  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:09:58am

Her name translated meant "Voice". Painfully appropriote.

48 That's Mr. President to you  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:10:14am

re: #30 Walter L. Newton

Actually, you "satire" is not funny when it is used as a mirror against a thread of this nature. This thread is about a woman who, as most evidence suggest, was brutally murdered by her government because she disagreed with the outcome of an election.

Personally, why don't you take this humor over to an open thread, where it would possible fit. otherwise, stuff it idiot.

Walter - you take yourself a little too seriously.

Fact is, our fine president doesn't give a damned shit about this woman. or anyone else getting killed in Iran. he also doesn't care about the internees at the worlds biggest torture facility - a place called North Korea.

Ou president cares about his legacy and his agenda. And if you read Michael Barone, you can get an insight as to how these Iranians protesters are messing up Obama's plans and have him "flumoxed".

These events tell you everything one needs to know about the cold heart that beats in the Oval Office.

49 zombie  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:10:28am
her dying moments were caught on a mobile phone video camera. Wikipedia already has a page for her, identifying her as Neda Salehi Agha Soltan. The gruesome video has been shown repeatedly on CNN, but if you haven’t seen it there are links at the bottom of the Wikipedia page.

In case you can handle it, the videos of here dying are here:

Video #1

Video #2

WARNING: Not easy to watch. If you are queasy or easily angered, do not click.

50 justabill  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:10:33am

re: #8 A.W.

Gotta say, Charles, i have been disappointed in your non-coverage of the iranian stuff. i mean, sheesh this has the potential to solve the iran problem for us and you barely feign interest. that story is like 2 days old. the new story is that they are getting ready to have a funeral for the "Angel of Iran" as Neda is called by many and the regime has banned memorials in all mosques. so they are getting ready to have an illegal memorial service. its a big deal and bluntly you are 2 days behind.

I wonder if this is an example of why slashies (/) are necessary. Given all the LFG coverage of various parts of the Iran election/revolution, my first thought was that this was sarcasm. Of course I could be wrong...

51 albusteve  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:11:03am

re: #43 Walter L. Newton

Explain that reference for me, least I die before I find out what you are talking about?

I can't...it's shameful...and I can barely post...what's his name attacked Charles again

52 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:11:04am

re: #40 Walter L. Newton

It doesn't really matter, it's not funny on a thread like this. Really bad taste, and that's coming from the king of bad taste, me.


I suppose that's the "down side" of free speech. But I do agree that it rubs decent folks the wrong way when we're talking about such a tragedy.

53 Kenneth  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:11:30am

It's a pity that President Obama has trapped himself in a doomed outreach to Khamenei.

Even if Mousavi wins the present tug-of-war, he'll probably support Iran's continued development of nuclear weapons. He was in office when the Islamic Republic first became serious about building the bomb; his powerful backer, Rafsanjani, is the true father of the nuclear program; and there is little reason why Mousavi would want to anger a pro-nuclear Revolutionary Guard Corps that had refrained from downing him.

But for there to be any chance that Iran will cease and desist from its nuclear quest, Mousavi must win the present struggle. If Ahmadinejad and Khamenei triumph, they will not relent. For them, and for the Revolutionary Guard behind them, nuclear weapons are the means to become global players and secure the power they can no longer confidently draw from their own people. Triumphant, the Revolutionary Guard, who have overseen all of the Islamic Republic's outreach efforts to Arab extremists like Hamas and Hezbollah, will surely get nastier abroad as they become more vicious at home.

The principal issue right now inside Iran isn't the nuclear question. It's what it has been since Khomeini died: How do you escape from a religious revolution? Mousavi might, just might, have an answer. Even if he is not our friend--and turns out to be in many ways our enemy--we should all pray that he wins. President Obama would do well to be just a bit more forceful in defending democracy for a people who must surely have earned his respect. Iranians will forgive the president his "meddling." He does carry, after all, the name of the man--Hussein, the prophet's grandson--who long ago defined Shiism's boundless admiration for those who defend their people and their faith from tyranny.

54 big steve  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:11:36am

re: #28 Charles

There are 10 posts on the front page about Iran.

Bite me.

Not only that, LGF was one of the first sites where bloggers were linking to the video....so A.W....do your homework before you criticize.

55 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:12:27am

re: #24 That's Mr. President to you

That's not appropriate on this particular thread.

56 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:12:27am

re: #48 That's Mr. President to you

Walter - you take yourself a little too seriously.

Fact is, our fine president doesn't give a damned shit about this woman. or anyone else getting killed in Iran. he also doesn't care about the internees at the worlds biggest torture facility - a place called North Korea.

Ou president cares about his legacy and his agenda. And if you read Michael Barone, you can get an insight as to how these Iranians protesters are messing up Obama's plans and have him "flumoxed".

These events tell you everything one needs to know about the cold heart that beats in the Oval Office.

Well, check your dings on that post. It was in exceptionally bad taste, and I'm not the only one here that thinks so. So, before you start examining me, take a good look at yourself.

57 soxfan4life  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:12:45am

re: #54 big steve


I don't believe said poster had any intent of doing research or anything else except stir shit up.

58 Baier  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:12:49am

re: #49 zombie

In case you can handle it, the videos of here dying are here:

Video #1

Video #2

WARNING: Not easy to watch. If you are queasy or easily angered, do not click.

The look in this poor girl's eyes as she realizes she is facing death is haunting, and devastating. Please don't view this video without knowing it will haunt you for some time.

59 Dianna  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:12:53am

re: #49 zombie

In case you can handle it, the videos of here dying are here:

Video #1

Video #2

WARNING: Not easy to watch. If you are queasy or easily angered, do not click.

Poor woman.

It's pretty clear that those poor folks trying to help her didn't realize that it was too late when they put pressure on the wound.

60 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:12:54am

re: #48 That's Mr. President to you

Now that, (IMO) is a good post.

Just broke my dinging finger.

61 realwest  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:13:25am

re: #50 justabill
I don't think he/she/it was being sarcastic:

Karma: -132
Registered since: Nov 26, 2007 at 9:53 am
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No. of comments posted: 495
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'nuff said?
I mean why come on here just to insult Charles? It's stupid and impolite and I'm being polite saying it that way.

62 Throbert McGee  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:13:35am
A young woman allegedly shot to death in Iran

Erm.... shouldn't this be something like "a young woman shot to death in Iran, allegedly in a deliberate killing by pro-government Basij thugs"?

I mean, so far as I can tell, her death by bullet is a matter of straightforward fact, not allegation; the only points up for possible debate are (a) whose gun the bullet came from, and (b) whether she was shot intentionally or was hit by a ricochet.

63 debutaunt  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:14:49am

re: #59 Dianna

Poor woman.

It's pretty clear that those poor folks trying to help her didn't realize that it was too late when they put pressure on the wound.

I don't believe they were trying to help save her.

64 soxfan4life  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:15:05am

re: #61 realwest

I don't think he/she/it was being sarcastic:

Karma: -132
Registered since: Nov 26, 2007 at 9:53 am
(Logged in)

No. of comments posted: 495
No. of links posted: 1


'nuff said?
I mean why come on here just to insult Charles? It's stupid and impolite and I'm being polite saying it that way.

Why do people wait months to post only to get themselves banned in such short order? Sometimes you never know what a lurker is really up to.

65 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:15:07am

We are watching monumental history here (I hope).

I pray for the good people of Iran.

66 Baier  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:15:16am

re: #62 Throbert McGee

Erm.... shouldn't this be something like "a young woman shot to death in Iran, allegedly in a deliberate killing by pro-government Basij thugs"?

I mean, so far as I can tell, her death by bullet is a matter of straightforward fact, not allegation; the only points up for possible debate are (a) whose gun the bullet came from, and (b) whether she was shot intentionally or was hit by a ricochet.

I'm not so sure. The original description I saw said she dies as a result of a beating by Mullah's thugs.

67 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:15:45am

re: #64 soxfan4life

Belt notches, I think.

68 Baier  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:16:04am

re: #63 debutaunt

I don't believe they were trying to help save her.

Why do you think that?

69 Kenneth  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:16:17am

re: #8 A.W.

You missed the point of this thread. The young woman was murdered 2 days ago. Her death was the story then. Today, her image is being carried on posters by the Iranian people protesting the regime & her face is known around the world. That is the story today: how an isolated & tragic incident is transformed into a symbol of a movement.

70 nyc redneck  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:16:17am

this is so heartbreaking.
this young woman will not have died in vain.
she is a true heroine.
god bless her.

71 redshirt  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:16:17am

Any idea what Obama is up to today? I haven't seen any twits (tweets?) yet. Movie day, farmers market, kids play at school?
Any indication that he has finally realized talk is absolutely pointless with Iran? That Bush and all us "neocon warmongers" were right that this is an evil regime that is totally illigitimate and has to be dealth with harshly?

72 LGoPs  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:16:40am

This young woman's blood has watered the tree of liberty. I pray that the ground is fertile.
I bow my head in prayer for her and her family.

73 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:16:41am

re: #62 Throbert McGee

Erm.... shouldn't this be something like "a young woman shot to death in Iran, allegedly in a deliberate killing by pro-government Basij thugs"?

I mean, so far as I can tell, her death by bullet is a matter of straightforward fact, not allegation; the only points up for possible debate are (a) whose gun the bullet came from, and (b) whether she was shot intentionally or was hit by a ricochet.

I don't think her death has actually been confirmed by an independent source. If you give a link to that I'll update the post...

74 debutaunt  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:17:17am

re: #68 Baier

Why do you think that?

It has been suggested that they were plainclothes thugs who were aiding in her murder.

75 MacDuff  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:17:27am

re: #48 That's Mr. President to you

Is "satire" really appropriate in dealing with the death of a brave young woman who has become a symbol of the Iranian struggle? I think not.

There is a time and place for all things and this is neither the time or place.

Some dignity and respect may be in order

76 Big Steve  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:17:45am

I read this morning that Obama is urging caution and he doesn't what to comment on Iran in that he doesn't want it perceived that there are "US fingerprints" on this insurrection. Sometimes I literally lose my breath at this leader of ours. Does he honestly believe that the powers that be won't use the "US Satan" card no matter what we do?

77 realwest  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:17:52am

re: #69 Kenneth
My friend, what makes you think AW was really interested in the point of this thread? See my # 61 above.

78 Dar ul Harb  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:17:53am

re: #66 Baier

I'm not so sure. The original description I saw said she dies as a result of a beating by Mullah's thugs.

That wasn't what death by blunt trauma would look like.

79 wahabicorridor  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:18:22am

re: #71 redshirt

something about the donut hole in Medicaire drug coverage. I guy from AARP took the stage with him.

80 albusteve  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:19:02am

re: #74 debutaunt

It has been suggested that they were plainclothes thugs who were aiding in her murder.

whatever...that wound is fatal 100% of the time

81 realwest  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:19:08am

Sorry y'all - gotta go now but hope you all (except AW) have a great day and that I get the chance to see you all down the road.

82 Baier  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:19:48am

re: #74 debutaunt

It has been suggested that they were plainclothes thugs who were aiding in her murder.

Maybe, but there is not much you can do, without medical equipment immediately available, for a person that has just been shot in the heart. It seems to me like they are trying to help, but don't know what to do. They looked panicked and in shock to me.

83 jcm  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:19:48am

re: #24 That's Mr. President to you

I personally know a "Neda" just as lovely. Her father was killed by the local judge / mullah for being a christian and for refusing the mullah's offer to make her his third wife.

The mullah through the widow out into the street, took the man's house and the daughter. She died not long after; of "natural" causes.

Rest of this post redacted to avoid what would be a well deserved banning by Charles.

84 Dianna  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:19:51am

re: #63 debutaunt

I don't believe they were trying to help save her.

They were doing the basic, pressure on the wound. A mistake in that case, at best. At worst, the exact wrong thing to do. In any case, not much use.

85 DistantThunder  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:19:54am

re: #49 zombie

In case you can handle it, the videos of here dying are here:

Video #1

Video #2

WARNING: Not easy to watch. If you are queasy or easily angered, do not click.


That's second one is brutal. I'm so glad it's available. The left has been able to shield the public from the atrocities in Cuba and Venezuala and the former Soviet Union, and in egypt and China - in all these thugocracies. No more baby.

86 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:20:05am
87 doppelganglander  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:20:06am

re: #43 Walter L. Newton

Explain that reference for me, least I die before I find out what you are talking about?

Someone, I believe one of the angry creationists or one of the denizens of the stalker cesspool, suggested Charles "suck a diseased walrus." 'Cause, y'know, they're all about the love.

88 Baier  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:20:13am

re: #78 Dar ul Harb

That wasn't what death by blunt trauma would look like.

I agree, I'm just saying, I've read different things.

89 zombie  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:20:13am

re: #66 Baier

I'm not so sure. The original description I saw said she dies as a result of a beating by Mullah's thugs.

No no, it 100% positive she was shot and died within a minute. The video shows that. She was shot in the chest/shoulder/neck area, and is massively bleeding internally. To be unfortunately graphic, it looks like her heart was pierced and she was bleeding into her throat and from there up out her mouth. She loses all blood pressure within 10 seconds. She was shot.

90 debutaunt  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:20:28am

re: #80 albusteve

whatever...that wound is fatal 100% of the time

My first reaction to the video was that they were good Samaritans, but they did the opposite of what should have been done.

91 Kenneth  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:20:38am

re: #77 realwest

You're right of course... never feed the trolls.

92 midwestgak  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:20:41am

OT
Lucas Glover wins US Open.

Who?

93 soxfan4life  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:20:51am

re: #71 redshirt

Any idea what Obama is up to today? I haven't seen any twits (tweets?) yet. Movie day, farmers market, kids play at school?
Any indication that he has finally realized talk is absolutely pointless with Iran? That Bush and all us "neocon warmongers" were right that this is an evil regime that is totally illigitimate and has to be dealth with harshly?


Kind of cold and rainy so ice cream must be out of the picture, probably helping ABC get all the right angles for the big night coming up.National Security and International relations be damned he's got national health care to ram down our throats before any of this stuff gets put on his plate.

94 Big Steve  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:21:10am

Hey Charles, I saw yesterday in the paper that the Washington Post actually credited you as one of the Blogs that kept the story going about the abducted reporter when all of the mainstream press was keeping silent. Nice to see them give credit.....thoughts?

95 Dar ul Harb  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:21:19am

re: #74 debutaunt

It has been suggested that they were plainclothes thugs who were aiding in her murder.

That seems rather unlikely, unless she had some leadership position among the protesters, which isn't apparent from reports. One of the men was reportedly her father, and he is seen in another, earlier, video interacting and walking around with her.

96 zombie  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:21:28am

re: #73 Charles

I don't think her death has actually been confirmed by an independent source. If you give a link to that I'll update the post...

I think she dies on-screen during that 15 seconds. Her eyes "go out" as blood pressure to the brain is lost. 100% guaranteed from the video she is dead.

97 debutaunt  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:21:35am

re: #82 Baier

Maybe, but there is not much you can do, without medical equipment immediately available, for a person that has just been shot in the heart. It seems to me like they are trying to help, but don't know what to do. They looked panicked and in shock to me.

That is also possible. The reports are varied and confusing.

98 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:21:46am

re: #87 doppelganglander

Someone, I believe one of the angry creationists or one of the denizens of the stalker cesspool, suggested Charles "suck a diseased walrus." 'Cause, y'know, they're all about the love.

Er, thanks, I think (careful what you ask, you may get the answer).

99 Big Steve  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:22:33am

re: #89 zombie

No no, it 100% positive she was shot and died within a minute. The video shows that. She was shot in the chest/shoulder/neck area, and is massively bleeding internally. To be unfortunately graphic, it looks like her heart was pierced and she was bleeding into her throat and from there up out her mouth. She loses all blood pressure within 10 seconds. She was shot.

It was her wide open unseeing eyes in the video that haunt me!

100 itellu3times  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:22:46am

re: #18 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

There is some sort of irony in a woman's death being a symbol to stand against one of the most vile misogynistic regimes on the planet.

Bunch of pikers, compared to our friends the Saudis.

101 soxfan4life  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:22:59am

re: #85 DistantThunder

That's second one is brutal. I'm so glad it's available. The left has been able to shield the public from the atrocities in Cuba and Venezuala and the former Soviet Union, and in egypt and China - in all these thugocracies. No more baby.


While being enablers to such brutal dictatorships, why is the left so adament about releasing photos depicting our soldiers doing much less.

102 nyc redneck  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:23:11am

re: #33 Golem Akbar

The lefties are having a harder time defending the Mullahs. Carter is starting to squirm. I wonder how soon it will be before Obama starts sounding like our former president Bush on Iran? I guess we need to keep an eye on Hillary (sock-puppet that she is).

once the citizens look like they are going to prevail in their desperate struggle for freedom, o will stride in full of b.s. abt "his speech in cairo".

i hope the iranians tell him to pound sand.

103 doppelganglander  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:23:23am

re: #98 Walter L. Newton

Er, thanks, I think (careful what you ask, you may get the answer).

Charles' response was even funnier. He declined, as walruses tend to get so clingy. Sorry I can't pull up the links for you right now.

104 Dianna  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:23:29am

re: #90 debutaunt

My first reaction to the video was that they were good Samaritans, but they did the opposite of what should have been done.

They were amateurs who saw a wound and put pressure on it.

I'm sorry for them, because they hadn't a clue. Every one of them probably feels guilty as hell.

105 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:23:34am

re: #96 zombie

I think she dies on-screen during that 15 seconds. Her eyes "go out" as blood pressure to the brain is lost. 100% guaranteed from the video she is dead.

And I think it's damn hard to breath, lying on your back, while you nostrils and mouth, and evidently the nasal passages and throat, are filled with blood, pooling down the side of her face and onto the ground. The woman is dead.

106 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:24:18am

re: #94 Big Steve

Hey Charles, I saw yesterday in the paper that the Washington Post actually credited you as one of the Blogs that kept the story going about the abducted reporter when all of the mainstream press was keeping silent. Nice to see them give credit.....thoughts?

Yes, I saw that -- I only posted one thing about David Rohde, but I did note that it seemed the story was being suppressed.

NYT exec Bill Keller says they contacted blogs and asked them not to post about Rohde, but they never contacted me.

107 JohnnyReb  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:24:29am

re: #85 DistantThunder

That's second one is brutal. I'm so glad it's available. The left has been able to shield the public from the atrocities in Cuba and Venezuala and the former Soviet Union, and in egypt and China - in all these thugocracies. No more baby.

And there are very good reasons why those countries refuse to let technology into the hands of their people. We are seeing the reasons unfold right before our eyes in Iran. The mullahs have tried to placate the younger people with internet access, cable TV and mobile phones, something nearly unheard of in Cuba. Castro is one of the last true dictators that know how to control a population though government only news sources.

108 Dianna  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:24:44am

re: #96 zombie

I think she dies on-screen during that 15 seconds. Her eyes "go out" as blood pressure to the brain is lost. 100% guaranteed from the video she is dead.

Dark venous blood, in that quantity? Yes, she died as we watched.

109 debutaunt  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:24:53am

re: #95 Dar ul Harb

That seems rather unlikely, unless she had some leadership position among the protesters, which isn't apparent from reports. One of the men was reportedly her father, and he is seen in another, earlier, video interacting and walking around with her.

Thank you. I hadn't heard that her father was involved in trying to save her. How hideous for him.

110 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:25:02am

re: #73 Charles

I don't think her death has actually been confirmed by an independent source. If you give a link to that I'll update the post...

IMHO, it won't be "verified" in the manner to which we're accustomed.

IIRC, [1] the Basij have been confiscating bodies and "disappearing" them, and [2] there's a report that she was buried in secret by the family.

(Just to say it, the blood across her face is evidence enough for me. She was dead at that point.)

111 albusteve  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:25:11am

getting pretty morbid round here

112 wahabicorridor  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:25:36am

re: #74 debutaunt

It has been suggested that they were plainclothes thugs who were aiding in her murder.

Don't think so. CNN ran it yesterday with the dialog that they translated.

"Don't be afraid"

"keep your eyes open, don't be afraid"

113 Golem Akbar  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:25:57am

re: #102 nyc redneck

once the citizens look like they are going to prevail in their desperate struggle for freedom, o will stride in full of b.s. abt "his speech in cairo".

i hope the iranians tell him to pound sand.

My fear is that this episode in Iran will turn into another China. The communists prevailed in China, despite the protests. There have been some reforms, but the Chinese have only painted a pretty face on a very ugly thugocratic regime. I'd hate to see a similar same thing happen in Iran.

114 DistantThunder  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:26:12am

re: #101 soxfan4life

While being enablers to such brutal dictatorships, why is the left so adament about releasing photos depicting our soldiers doing much less.

I assume they are intimidated by soldiers as a concept - therefore, they like to sandbag them from behind. Makes them feel powerful and courageous, when in reality they are physical and moral cowards.

115 Big Steve  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:26:18am

re: #106 Charles

Yes, I saw that -- I only posted one thing about David Rohde, but I did note that it seemed the story was being suppressed.

NYT exec Bill Keller says they contacted blogs and asked them not to post about Rohde, but they never contacted me.

The story I saw actually credited you by name and other blogs for outing the story which I consider all good. Had they contacted you would you have not posted?

116 zombie  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:26:29am

re: #111 albusteve

getting pretty morbid round here

Sorry, didn't mean to be graphic. Just wanted to get the (important) facts straight.

117 debutaunt  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:26:59am

re: #112 wahabicorridor

Don't think so. CNN ran it yesterday with the dialog that they translated.

"Don't be afraid"

"keep your eyes open, don't be afraid"

Thank you. I had seen earlier reports that gave a different impresion.

118 lawhawk  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:27:20am

re: #35 wahabicorridor

The Internet comes with an instruction manual?

Hmmm... maybe someone should write an idiots guide to LGF... for idiots such as A.W. who thinks that LGF hasn't been covering the Iranian situation.

119 Golem Akbar  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:27:47am

re: #116 zombie

Sorry, didn't mean to be graphic. Just wanted to get the (important) facts straight.


No apology necessary. This is too important to be polite.

120 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:27:55am

I agree, from that graphic video it does look like a woman was killed. I'm just exercising caution about it because none of the videos or information coming out of Iran can be independently verified, and it has not actually been confirmed yet that a woman died.

121 Baier  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:28:00am

re: #89 zombie

No no, it 100% positive she was shot and died within a minute. The video shows that. She was shot in the chest/shoulder/neck area, and is massively bleeding internally. To be unfortunately graphic, it looks like her heart was pierced and she was bleeding into her throat and from there up out her mouth. She loses all blood pressure within 10 seconds. She was shot.

It is unclear to me where exactly the injury is, aside from her chest area. What is clear is that Her lungs filled with blood and that is why it comes out of her nose and mouth. She probably drown in her own blood.

122 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:28:11am

re: #61 realwest

I don't think he/she/it was being sarcastic:

Karma: -132
Registered since: Nov 26, 2007 at 9:53 am
(Logged in)

No. of comments posted: 495
No. of links posted: 1

'nuff said?
I mean why come on here just to insult Charles? It's stupid and impolite and I'm being polite saying it that way.

Another stalker site initiation rite?

123 DistantThunder  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:28:18am

re: #106 Charles

Yes, I saw that -- I only posted one thing about David Rohde, but I did note that it seemed the story was being suppressed.

NYT exec Bill Keller says they contacted blogs and asked them not to post about Rohde, but they never contacted me.

If they 'actually credited" Charles it was only to frame him as someone who didn't care about the poor guy. I suspect it was a backhanded slam.

124 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:28:40am

re: #116 zombie

Sorry, didn't mean to be graphic. Just wanted to get the (important) facts straight.

It's good to do that.

125 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:29:05am

CNN has the coverage in Iran. They just had an extended interview by phone with a 19 year old young woman. She said she had friends killed and that she had been beaten. She said there were more women than men in the streets. Why? Because for once they felt they could be heard and make a difference. Very intersting.

126 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:29:37am

re: #120 Charles

I agree, from that graphic video it does look like a woman was killed. I'm just exercising caution about it because none of the videos or information coming out of Iran can be independently verified, and it has not actually been confirmed yet that a woman died.

That caution is one of the reasons I'm a Lizard.

127 ryannon  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:29:41am

re: #63 debutaunt

I don't believe they were trying to help save her.

Huh?

128 Dianna  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:30:26am

re: #120 Charles

I agree, from that graphic video it does look like a woman was killed. I'm just exercising caution about it because none of the videos or information coming out of Iran can be independently verified, and it has not actually been confirmed yet that a woman died.

It's good to be cautious, but, if that video hasn't been tampered with, that woman is very dead. It's been a long time since I did EMT training, but that was pretty clear. The blood pool was spreading around her head and under her body at a speed that simply isn't survivable. Not on the street.

129 wahabicorridor  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:30:38am

re: #107 JohnnyReb

My guess is that China is watching this and doing some serious thinking about cybersecurity.

130 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:30:44am

re: #122 Kosh's Shadow

Another stalker site initiation rite?

Virgin territory for them.

/heh

131 Son of the Black Dog  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:30:46am

re: #49 zombie

In case you can handle it, the videos of here dying are here:

Video #1

Video #2

WARNING: Not easy to watch. If you are queasy or easily angered, do not click.

I watched the videos again. I needed to. Sometimes rage is the proper emotion. There is pure evil in this world, and this girl's murder is a visible manifestation. The networks should be showing the unpixilated versions. The world needs to see this, just like they should have seen the people jumping from the WTC. You don't sugar coat something like this.

132 doppelganglander  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:31:03am

Sarkozy: France 'Cannot Accept' Burqas

PARIS — President Nicolas Sarkozy said the Muslim burqa would not be welcome in France, calling the full-body religious gown a sign of the "debasement" of women.

In the first presidential address to parliament in 136 years, Sarkozy faced critics who fear the burqa issue could stigmatize France's Muslims and said he supported banning the garment from being worn in public.

"In our country, we cannot accept that women be prisoners behind a screen, cut off from all social life, deprived of all identity," Sarkozy said to extended applause at the Chateau of Versailles, southwest of Paris.

"The burqa is not a religious sign, it's a sign of subservience, a sign of debasement — I want to say it solemnly," he said. "It will not be welcome on the territory of the French Republic."

Think about that. The first time the president of France has addressed parliament in 136 years, and this is the topic he picks. I agree with him completely about the perniciousness of the burqa, and I hope France bans it, which would be consistent with their constitution, AFAIK. Of course that would be impossible in the U.S., but it's not as big of a problem here. I hope the custom dies out here of its own accord.

133 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:31:06am

re: #99 Big Steve

It was her wide open unseeing eyes in the video that haunt me!

that was the photo on the front page of the Wall Street Journal that was so moving to me.

134 lawhawk  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:31:09am

re: #69 Kenneth

The story has gotten so big that even the WSJ carried it on the front page above the fold. That's as important as such stories get; the media has caught on to what protesters and others have been seeing and feeling since word of her murder leaked out (literally leaked - online).

135 DistantThunder  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:31:12am

Humor: Diane sawyer says ABC will be completely fair about Obamacare. Then there's this from 2007, I picked up at Lucianne:

Diane Sawyer: "You know, I wanted to sit on a jury once and I was taken off the jury. And the judge said to me, 'Can, you know, can you tell the truth and be fair?' And I said, 'That's what journalists do.' And everybody in the courtroom laughed. It was the most hurtful moment I think I've ever had."

136 zombie  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:31:17am

I strongly suspect -- no, I am convinced -- that there have been hundreds of "Neda"s who have been shot to death by the government over the last week whose deaths were not so serendipitously recorded on cell-phone video, so we have no proof of what happened to them. Bullets are flying, people are dying. We will likely never know the extent. Her death is now the symbol of all the others who died as well.

137 debutaunt  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:31:27am

re: #127 ryannon

Huh?

That was based on earlier reports that suggested they weren't helping. It seems that the report was disproven. This blog keeps searching for the truth.

138 AmeriDan  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:31:40am

re: #11 Iron Fist

This is probably the best Opertunity Iran is going to have to throw off the yoke of the Mullahs. This is a real dividing line. Something on , say, July 4 would be nice.

That's our day. They can have July 3.

Deal? ;)

139 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:31:41am

re: #131 Son of the Black Dog

I watched the videos again. I needed to. Sometimes rage is the proper emotion. There is pure evil in this world, and this girl's murder is a visible manifestation. The networks should be showing the unpixilated versions. The world needs to see this, just like they should have seen the people jumping from the WTC. You don't sugar coat something like this.

I've seen the unaltered version several times on CNN.

140 gregb  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:31:43am

Even when doing dangerous work, nobody wakes up in the morning and thinks "I am going to die today."

I'm torn between praying for the safety of the Iranian citizens and praying for it to be a catalyst for a better world.

Either way, it's definitely a turning point.

141 Baier  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:31:45am
It's good to be cautious, but, if that video hasn't been tampered with, that woman is very dead. It's been a long time since I did EMT training, but that was pretty clear. The blood pool was spreading around her head and under her body at a speed that simply isn't survivable. Not on the street.

Could they have drained the lungs? Assuming the equipment was available, or do you think the bleeding was just too bad.

142 jcm  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:31:52am

re: #120 Charles

I agree, from that graphic video it does look like a woman was killed. I'm just exercising caution about it because none of the videos or information coming out of Iran can be independently verified, and it has not actually been confirmed yet that a woman died.

It likely won't be confirmed independently.

The images still have power. The two most powerful photos of the Vietnam era were and still are not used in the context that they actually took place.

143 albusteve  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:32:30am

re: #116 zombie

Sorry, didn't mean to be graphic. Just wanted to get the (important) facts straight.

I know...and I know exactly what happened to her...I've seen some trauma in my day

144 Dar ul Harb  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:32:52am

re: #116 zombie

Sorry, didn't mean to be graphic. Just wanted to get the (important) facts straight.

Doesn't matter if you've seen combat or worked in a trauma E.R., I think that any deer hunter could tell you what happened. :(

/no offense to anyone intended

145 lawhawk  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:32:55am

re: #106 Charles

Ed Morrissey at Hot Air says that he was... and notes the hypocrisy of the request compared to the Times own coverage of other kidnappings and incidents in which they chose to publicize despite the fact that those situations mirrored that of their own reporter but for who the others worked for...

146 MacDuff  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:33:20am

re: #136 zombie

I strongly suspect -- no, I am convinced -- that there have been hundreds of "Neda"s who have been shot to death by the government over the last week whose deaths were not so serendipitously recorded on cell-phone video, so we have no proof of what happened to them. Bullets are flying, people are dying. We will likely never know the extent. Her death is now the symbol of all the others who died as well.

Like the "Tomb of the Unknowns". I agree.

147 Dianna  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:34:16am

re: #141 Baier

Could they have drained the lungs? Assuming the equipment was available, or do you think the bleeding was just too bad.

The bleeding was - probably - too bad. I think her heart was pierced. The way the blood kept pumping indicates that even a trauma center would have had trouble saving her.

148 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:34:27am

re: #142 jcm

It likely won't be confirmed independently.

The images still have power. The two most powerful photos of the Vietnam era were and still are not used in the context that they actually took place.

(Imagine the Basij who shot Neda in one of those photos from Vietnam.)

/(and you know which one)

149 DistantThunder  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:34:33am

The tree of Liberty needs to be watered from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
Thomas Jefferson
3rd president of US (1743 - 1826)

150 Sharmuta  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:34:54am

It will be interesting to see if the article is right and next month the Iranian people will take to the streets to remember their martyrs. I don't think this is over.

151 albusteve  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:35:04am

re: #141 Baier

Could they have drained the lungs? Assuming the equipment was available, or do you think the bleeding was just too bad.

no...she was a gonner as soon as she was hit...hospital or street

152 doppelganglander  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:35:04am

re: #132 doppelganglander

I missed this little tidbit at the end of the article:

Sarkozy was due to host a state dinner Monday with Sheik Hamad Bin Jassem Al Thani of Qatar, where women wear Islamic head coverings in public — whether while shopping or driving cars.

Bravo, President Sarkozy.

153 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:35:25am

re: #149 DistantThunder

The tree of Liberty needs to be watered from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
Thomas Jefferson
3rd president of US (1743 - 1826)

Truth!

154 quickslow87  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:36:48am

re: #149 DistantThunder

The tree of Liberty needs to be watered from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
Thomas Jefferson
3rd president of US (1743 - 1826)

Sad but true.

155 DistantThunder  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:37:31am

Most often the blood of patriots, less often the blood of tyrants.

156 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:37:39am
157 A.W.  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:38:21am

Well, truth or not, there could be some real consequences there.

Its funny, when debating the iraqi war, liberals would say "if we kill someone they become a martyr and then they gun for our troops." And i responded, "even if that person was a bad guy." and their view was yes, so i would turn it around, "if that was true, then how come there weren't literally millions of iraqis gunning for Saddam's head."

Funny how it comes around. now there might be people gunning for the dictators' heads, in Iran.

Let's hope for a revolution, bloodlessly if possible, and let's hope a much more sane regimes comes in.

And as for Mousavi, even if it remains being about him, let's judge him charitably. a man like him had to support hamas, hizbollah, and iranian nukes so long as he worked within their system. set free of it, he might be a very different man. he is as good as a man can be, and still be allowed to run for president there. let us hope he either 1) has been hiding his true nature or 2) has had his eyes truly opened. Or maybe even 3) that he is just a transitional figure to a kind of government we would like. I mean, heck, he doesn't have to like the US or isreal, he just has to believe that its not his concern to take down the great satans and that is enough.

158 DistantThunder  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:38:31am

re: #156 Iron Fist

CNN doesn't have much cred, well, much of anywhere. Not since they admitted they were altering their coverage to please Saddam Hussein.

Toxic enabling.

159 Dianna  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:38:41am

re: #155 DistantThunder

Most often the blood of patriots, less often the blood of tyrants.

And, in this case, one of those determined to be an innocent by-stander.

160 justabill  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:39:23am

re: #139 Charles

I've seen the unaltered version several times on CNN.

I saw some CNN coverage over the weekend and found it pretty decent. I had expected the story to be buried or at least more heavily slanted. I am pleasantly surprised with the CNN coverage.

161 subsailor68  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:39:24am

There is only one thing that would make the loss of this young woman even more tragic, and that would be for the people of Iran to give up this fight. If they persist, and prevail, she will not have died in vain.

An old quote (I think it was Babe Ruth) comes to mind:

"It's hard to beat a person who never gives up."

162 bombarafat  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:39:26am

It's a very disturbing video.
We should all pray that her death unites the others for the good of over throwing the throw back Mullahs.

163 A.W.  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:39:27am

re: #149 DistantThunder

The tree of Liberty needs to be watered from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
Thomas Jefferson
3rd president of US (1743 - 1826)

Great quote, but if people don't know who thomas jefferson was, that would be really sad.

Then again, given the state of public education...

164 Baier  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:39:50am

re: #147 Dianna

The bleeding was - probably - too bad. I think her heart was pierced. The way the blood kept pumping indicates that even a trauma center would have had trouble saving her.

It just happens so fast...so horrible.

165 Dianna  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:40:03am

re: #157 A.W.

Are you really that foolish? Do you - who complained about LGF being "behind" on this story - know so very little about Mousavi?

166 soxfan4life  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:40:18am

OT hee but this should warm everyones heart, our Ear leader says our military is ready for possible launches by North Korea, and prepared for all contingencies. How about just going in and destroying their capabilities prior to July 4, or does he really want the big fireworks show in HI.

167 DistantThunder  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:40:28am

Maybe the tipping point will come when the regime threatens to take away the Iranians' cell phone. I know what it's like to take away a teenager's cell phone - GOOD LUCK WITH THAT.

168 jcm  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:40:52am

re: #148 pre-Boomer Marine brat

(Imagine the Basij who shot Neda in one of those photos from Vietnam.)

/(and you know which one)

re: #141 Baier

Could they have drained the lungs? Assuming the equipment was available, or do you think the bleeding was just too bad.

20 year firefighter EMT.

Given the location they are holding there hands to stop the bleeding on her upper chest, and that it was likely a 7.62x39, and speed with which she died I would say her aortic arch (the main vessel coming off the heart) was damage as well as damage to the trachea.

To much damage in a very critical area.

169 wahabicorridor  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:41:03am

check the spinoffs guys.

lawhawk just posted a link to an English translation of an interview with Neda's fiance.

170 Henchman Ghazi-808  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:41:07am

re: #142 jcm

The images still have power. The two most powerful photos of the Vietnam era were and still are not used in the context that they actually took place.

I'm going to guess without riding the innertubes, just for sport:

The little girl burned by Napalm
The VC being executed by a South Viet Sargent on the street with a snub nosed .38

The second has been promoted way out of context.

171 Flyers1974  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:41:10am

re: #142 jcm

What's the real story behind the running girl photo, if that is one of the ones you were talking about?

172 Abu Lahab  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:41:15am

Thank you so much Charles for your coverage of what's happening in Iran.
I'm shocked and disgusted that the same people in the West who went nuts during the war in Gaza and criticized Israel are silent and not uttering a word now.

173 dapperdave  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:42:24am

This whole thing makes me sick, I just want to puke.

174 wahabicorridor  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:43:20am

re: #171 Flyers1974

What's the real story behind the running girl photo, if that is one of the ones you were talking about?

If I could remember her name I'd google it and give you a link.

She is now a U.S. citizen, living, last I heard, in L.A.

seriously.

175 albusteve  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:43:26am

this vid is very sad indeed...the Danny Pearl vid was do friggin unbelivable even I was totoally blown away....that was disturbing

176 rsquare  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:43:30am

Prayers for all the brave protesters in Iran, shed the shackles of the mullahs, and join us in the sweet realm of freedom and liberty.

177 ryannon  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:43:34am

re: #141 Baier

Could they have drained the lungs? Assuming the equipment was available, or do you think the bleeding was just too bad.

Of course it's not 'officially verifiable', but I've repeated read that a medical doctor on the scene reported that she had been shot through the heart and that it was a totally hopeless case: just a huge hemorrhaging wound.

178 jaunte  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:43:43am

re: #174 wahabicorridor

Here's the story:
[Link: www.famouspictures.org...]

179 J.D.  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:44:29am

I just had a wake-up call: my

rather

liberal girlfriend criticizing the demonstrators as foolish for

not knowing

that this would be the outcome.
She missed the whole point.
I tried to explain...

I hope there are still enough people out there who realize the value of our democracy and are willing to fight for it.

180 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:44:39am

re: #157 A.W.

I you ever come across someone who appeared to be talking to themselves all the time, and never listening to anyone else?

Just wondering.

181 Henchman Ghazi-808  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:44:41am

re: #168 jcm

If the loss of blood to her brain didn't kill her quickly, she would have suffocated due to all the blood in her trachea. She was gone fast, mercifully.

The video is very disturbing, as it should be. I'm not one to push graphic violence and gore, but this video should be shown a lot.

182 A.W.  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:44:54am

another nice quote, from Martin Luther King, on the death of those 4 little girls when the 16th st. baptist church was bombed:

“These children—unoffending, innocent, and beautiful—were the victims of one of the most vicious and tragic crimes ever perpetrated against humanity. Yet they died nobly. They are the martyred heroines of a holy crusade for freedom and human dignity.

“And so this afternoon in a real sense they have something to say to each of us in their death. They have something to say to every minister of the gospel who has remained silent behind the safe security of stained-glass windows. They have something to say to every politician [Audience:] (Yeah) who has fed his constituents with the stale bread of hatred and the spoiled meat of racism. They have something to say to a federal government that has compromised with the undemocratic practices of southern Dixiecrats (Yeah) and the blatant hypocrisy of right-wing northern Republicans. (Speak) They have something to say to every Negro (Yeah) who has passively accepted the evil system of segregation and who has stood on the sidelines in a mighty struggle for justice. They say to each of us, black and white alike, that we must substitute courage for caution. (Mmm) They say to us that we must be concerned not merely about who murdered them, but about the system, the way of life, the philosophy which produced the murderers. Their death says to us that we must work passionately and unrelentingly for the realization of the American dream.

“And so my friends, they did not die in vain. (Yeah) God still has a way of wringing good out of evil. (Oh yes) And history has proven over and over again that unmerited suffering is redemptive. The innocent blood of these little girls may well serve as a redemptive force (Yeah) that will bring new light to this dark city. (Yeah. Mmm) The holy Scripture says, "A little child shall lead them." (Well) The death of these little children may lead our whole Southland (Well) from the low road of man's inhumanity to man to the high road of peace and brotherhood. (Yeah) These tragic deaths may lead our nation to substitute an aristocracy of character for an aristocracy of color. The spilled blood of these innocent girls may cause the whole citizenry of Birmingham (Yeah) to transform the negative extremes of a dark past into the positive extremes of a bright future. (Mmm) Indeed, this tragic event may cause the white South to come to terms with its conscience. (Yeah)”

[Link: www.mlkonline.net...]

Here's hoping that what those deaths did to hasten the death of segregation, that this woman's death will do to the tyranny over there. Then her death shall not be in vain.

And let us hope our President decides to substitute courage for caution, too.

183 soxfan4life  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:44:57am

re: #173 dapperdave

This whole thing makes me sick, I just want to puke.


When 0 uses Neda's senseless death in a speech while he sat back and said nothing about the events leading up to it will be a sad day in our history.

184 Rancher  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:44:58am

Neda, which means "voice", is now the face of the movement for Democracy, Iranians who want their voices to be heard. This is huge, far bigger than the insulting way the election was stolen, she has been martyred by the oppressive brutality of the regime.

185 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:44:59am

re: #168 jcm

20 year firefighter EMT.

Given the location they are holding there hands to stop the bleeding on her upper chest, and that it was likely a 7.62x39, and speed with which she died I would say her aortic arch (the main vessel coming off the heart) was damage as well as damage to the trachea.

To much damage in a very critical area.

(/not medically trained by ANY stretch!)

Common sense alone is sufficient to agree. That much blood coming up indicates fatal damage, even if (hypothetically) lying right on the table in the ER when it happened.

186 zombie  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:45:06am

re: #132 doppelganglander

Sarkozy: France 'Cannot Accept' Burqas

Think about that. The first time the president of France has addressed parliament in 136 years, and this is the topic he picks. I agree with him completely about the perniciousness of the burqa, and I hope France bans it, which would be consistent with their constitution, AFAIK. Of course that would be impossible in the U.S., but it's not as big of a problem here. I hope the custom dies out here of its own accord.

For the most part, people come from oppressive culture to the US for the very purpose of throwing off the symbols of oppression like the burqa. Which is why they're very rarely seen here.

In the last decade, I have seen exactly one person wearing a full burqa in the SF Bay Area -- and it turned out to be a man! (Not kidding.) This was in a supermarket. I saw a person in a burqa pushing a shopping cart down an aisle, and noted it must be the tallest woman underneath there that I'd seen in quite a while -- she seemed to be about 6" 1". Out of curiosity I hovered close, and then heard from under the robe the person say to a clerk in a deep booming California-accented voice, "Do you have any organic bok choy?" Turns out it was just a tranny -- wearing the strangest tranny costume ever!

187 gregb  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:45:18am

re: #51 albusteve

I'm interested.

I stepped into and broke through up to my knee a washed ashore, diseased walrus jumping between beaches way back when I was working as a beach lifeguard through college. It looked like a rock among many.

It wasn't a pleasant experience.

188 albusteve  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:45:28am

my keyboard is trashed...

189 Flyers1974  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:45:30am

re: #174 wahabicorridor

Thanks, never knew that.

190 ryannon  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:45:45am

lre: #149 DistantThunder

The tree of Liberty needs to be watered from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
Thomas Jefferson
3rd president of US (1743 - 1826)

Preferably the blood of tyrants.

191 wahabicorridor  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:46:00am

re: #171 Flyers1974

What's the real story behind the running girl photo, if that is one of the ones you were talking about?

My memory sucks.

Phan Thi Kim Phuc is a citizen of Canada

192 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:46:07am

re: #160 justabill

I saw some CNN coverage over the weekend and found it pretty decent. I had expected the story to be buried or at least more heavily slanted. I am pleasantly surprised with the CNN coverage.


I don't like CNN or Christiane Amanpour very much, but they have kicked ass on this story. At least in comparison to their closest competitors.

193 DistantThunder  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:46:48am

Imagine if they'd have had cell phones at Auschwitz.

194 jcm  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:47:27am

re: #170 BigPapa

I'm going to guess without riding the innertubes, just for sport:

The little girl burned by Napalm
The VC being executed by a South Viet Sargent on the street with a snub nosed .38

The second has been promoted way out of context.

Ding.

The little girl is Phan Thị Kim Phúc, incident was used against the US. But no US units were involved that day.

The execution was done by General Nguyễn Ngọc Loan, the "victim" a VC officer, in civilian clothes who had just murdered a police officers family.

195 AuntAcid  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:47:34am

re: #161 subsailor68

There is only one thing that would make the loss of this young woman even more tragic, and that would be for the people of Iran to give up this fight. If they persist, and prevail, she will not have died in vain.

An old quote (I think it was Babe Ruth) comes to mind:

"It's hard to beat a person who never gives up."

there is always the Gandhi Gambit...where theoretically the thugs will tire of killing and...VOILA!...the revolution is won.

196 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:47:46am

re: #186 zombie

For the most part, people come from oppressive culture to the US for the very purpose of throwing off the symbols of oppression like the burqa. Which is why they're very rarely seen here.

In the last decade, I have seen exactly one person wearing a full burqa in the SF Bay Area -- and it turned out to be a man! (Not kidding.) This was in a supermarket. I saw a person in a burqa pushing a shopping cart down an aisle, and noted it must be the tallest woman underneath there that I'd seen in quite a while -- she seemed to be about 6" 1". Out of curiosity I hovered close, and then heard from under the robe the person say to a clerk in a deep booming California-accented voice, "Do you have any organic bok choy?" Turns out it was just a tranny -- wearing the strangest tranny costume ever!

Common...

Afg - Shemale Pashtun under Burka dances with boyfriend

Youtube Video
197 Nevergiveup  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:47:49am

re: #193 DistantThunder

Imagine if they'd have had cell phones at Auschwitz.

If there had been, there wouldn't have been an Auschwitz.

198 gregb  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:48:05am

re: #150 Sharmuta

Well according to Wiki--3, 12, and 40 days after....

199 Son of the Black Dog  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:48:43am

re: #139 Charles

I've seen the unaltered version several times on CNN.

Good! I only saw a heavily pixilated version on Fox.

200 Racer X  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:48:44am

re: #132 doppelganglander

Thread worthy.

201 wahabicorridor  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:49:27am

re: #178 jaunte

Here's the story:
[Link: www.famouspictures.org...]

Yes, thank you. Who knew that 'napalm girl' would be a good search term?

202 Abu Lahab  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:49:43am

Republicans demand stronger Iran response

203 J.D.  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:50:03am

re: #193 DistantThunder

Imagine if they'd have had cell phones at Auschwitz.

Yes.

204 jcm  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:50:12am

re: #199 Son of the Black Dog

Good! I only saw a heavily pixilated version on Fox.

It's not the blood.... it's her eyes......

205 dapperdave  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:50:30am

re: #183 soxfan4life

I wouldn't put it past him, using things like this for political gain isn't beyond liberals.

206 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:51:06am

From the Wiki page:


The man next to Neda can apparently be heard speaking in the first video, saying her name;

"Neda, don't be afraid. Neda, don't be afraid. [obscured by others yelling] Neda, stay with me. Neda stay with me!"

I don't know how the bolded part sounds in Farsi, but I think it would be a good thing for the protesters to take up as a chant.

Shout it from the rooftops.

207 Nevergiveup  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:51:17am

re: #204 jcm

It's not the blood.... it's her eyes......

Well her eyes rolled back on her head as the camera pans around and that is probably when she did die.

208 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:51:48am

re: #197 Nevergiveup

If there had been, there wouldn't have been an Auschwitz.

There probably would have been an Auschwitz. I've done a hell of a lot of research about the Shoah for my plays, and spent time in Poland doing research, and there was much more knowledge of what was going on then the common person understands.

A lot of backs were turned, and I don't know if better communications would have changed much.

I know, it's a topic that has been debated over and over.

209 A.W.  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:51:53am

re: #193 DistantThunder

Imagine if they'd have had cell phones at Auschwitz.

Personally i would rather have a gun. If you have never read Kosinsky's classic dissent standing up for gun rights, you would find it very apropriate right now.

210 Son of the Black Dog  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:51:56am

re: #149 DistantThunder

The tree of Liberty needs to be watered from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
Thomas Jefferson
3rd president of US (1743 - 1826)

They need to go to work on the tyrants. Too many patriots already.

211 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:51:59am

re: #156 Iron Fist

CNN doesn't have much cred, well, much of anywhere. Not since they admitted they were altering their coverage to please Saddam Hussein.

Not singing high praise to CNN here. Just saying that their coverage has been far more expansive and with more depth than any other MSM source to date. So I will credit them with that.

212 MacDuff  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:52:01am

re: #175 albusteve

this vid is very sad indeed...the Danny Pearl vid was do friggin unbelivable even I was totoally blown away....that was disturbing

What's really tragic is how the Danny Pearl vid seemed to go down the memory hole for some as they favored "dialogue' with these monsters.

213 Dianna  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:52:39am

re: #204 jcm

It's not the blood.... it's her eyes......

Her dying eyes are on the front page of the Wall Street Journal today.

214 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:52:52am

re: #204 jcm

It's not the blood.... it's her eyes......

Agreed. It's both shocking and strangely... transcendent?... to see the life go out in her eyes, yet with almost a calm resignation.

215 midwestgak  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:52:54am

re: #193 DistantThunder

Imagine if they'd have had cell phones at Auschwitz.

Imagine if there were no Eisenhower, MacArthur, Patton or Bradly. No American soldier volunteers. Impossible.

216 albusteve  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:53:34am

re: #212 MacDuff

What's really tragic is how the Danny Pearl vid seemed to go down the memory hole for some as they favored "dialogue' with these monsters.

yup....I will never forget Danny Pearl

217 jcm  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:53:49am

re: #207 Nevergiveup

Well her eyes rolled back on her head as the camera pans around and that is probably when she did die.

Right at the beginning, she looks around.
It's a look I've seen in critical injured people.
In ones who know the end is close.

218 Sharmuta  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:53:58am

re: #214 Occasional Reader

Agreed. It's both shocking and strangely... transcendent?... to see the life go out in her eyes, yet with almost a calm resignation.

She died for her country. That is a high honor.

219 Dianna  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:54:09am

re: #214 Occasional Reader

Agreed. It's both shocking and strangely... transcendent?... to see the life go out in her eyes, yet with almost a calm resignation.

OR, she was too deep in shock for calm resignation.

220 Nevergiveup  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:54:17am

A Palestinian man who helped plan the 1985 hijacking of the Achille Lauro cruise ship during which an American passenger was killed has died in an Italian jail.

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

During the incident, Leon Klinghoffer, an elderly Jewish man from New York, was shot and killed. The Palestinians dumped his body, and his wheelchair, into the sea.


Leon Klinghoffer was also an American Vet of WW2.

221 Dianna  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:54:45am

re: #216 albusteve

yup....I will never forget Danny Pearl

Or Nick Berg. Who, unlike Daniel Pearl, was alive when they sawed his head off.

222 Rancher  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:55:21am

We talk about the muted support coming from Obama but where is the support from Muslims around the world? Had this woman been shot by Zionists or an American Marine the "street" would be out in the millions protesting. Mullahs can do no wrong.

223 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:55:38am

re: #194 jcm

The little girl is Phan Thị Kim Phúc, incident was used against the US. But no US units were involved that day.

And she later fled the Socialist Paradise of Vietnam, defecting to Canada.

224 wahabicorridor  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:55:54am

re: #208 Walter L. Newton

Exactly right. The Germans had a lot of help with the Holocaust - Poles, Ukranians, etc.

And people knew. In my dad's senior year of high school, 1933, they had a German guy come over and tell them EXACTLY what Hitler's plans were.

This was in Vestaburg Pennsylvania. Good luck finding it on a map.

If they knew there and then, they knew everywhere.

225 yma o hyd  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:56:17am

re: #172 Abu Lahab

Thank you so much Charles for your coverage of what's happening in Iran.
I'm shocked and disgusted that the same people in the West who went nuts during the war in Gaza and criticized Israel are silent and not uttering a word now.

Oh, they're uttering words - for example on the comments page of the grauniad.

And as one would expect - they all say that the election couldn't possibly have been rigged - that its the baaad US/Zionists who are behind thsi - and that the supreme leader has spoken, so thats that.
Oh - and some alos think that a few dead people are neither ehre nor there (aren't Palis, see, aren't 'murdered' by the IDF, see ...)

No - they're not quiet, but they have sort of gone under cover ..

226 jcm  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:56:55am

re: #213 Dianna

Her dying eyes are on the front page of the Wall Street Journal today.

Everyone needs to look into those eyes.

What do you say to someone just before the light leaves those eyes?

227 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:56:57am

re: #208 Walter L. Newton

There probably would have been an Auschwitz. I've done a hell of a lot of research about the Shoah for my plays, and spent time in Poland doing research, and there was much more knowledge of what was going on then the common person understands.

A lot of backs were turned, and I don't know if better communications would have changed much.

I know, it's a topic that has been debated over and over.

I agree with you; the world would have done nothing.
I think the difference is that the Jews would have stood up for themselves earlier, not that the world would have done anything to help.
And then the Nazis would have mowed them down in the streets, and more people would believe their propaganda that Jews deserved it.
Neither way would have been good.

228 avanti  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:57:04am

re: #218 Sharmuta

She died for her country. That is a high honor.

I hope they follow through with the martyrdom anniversary celebrations. According to the link Charles posted from Time, the 40th day is the big one, plenty of time to get the story out and organize.

229 pat  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:57:19am

Charles update makes perfect sense. It was the message of women's rights that has triggered these demonstrations. And since her father was with her, the wish must run deeply in Iranian society. Likely he can still remember when Tehran was an international, secular city. With open dating, coed classes and recreation, along with the highest literacy rate in the entire Muslim world.

230 J.D.  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:57:28am

re: #222 Rancher

We talk about the muted support coming from Obama but where is the support from Muslims around the world? Had this woman been shot by Zionists or an American Marine the "street" would be out in the millions protesting. Mullahs can do no wrong.

But not everyone is willing to stand up. That's what made the Bush administration after 9/11 so different... and criticized.
This would never had happened without our response after 9/11, imho.

231 wahabicorridor  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:57:28am

re: #223 Occasional Reader

Apparently she took a break in Cuba before settling in Canada.

232 justabill  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:57:34am

re: #186 zombie

I was at Water Country this weekend and saw a lady in a full burka with two girls also veiled, but not in full burkas in line to enter the park. Most folks were in swim suits and perhaps a t shirt and all the rides will get you very wet (water slides, a wave pool ect).

It was in the high 90s that day and I can only imagine what was going thru the head of those kids. Seeing other kids in swim suits. I wanted to see if they changed or went into the water as they were but didn't think it would be right following them to see...

233 Rancher  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:57:42am

re: #224 wahabicorridor

Exactly right. The Germans had a lot of help with the Holocaust - Poles, Ukranians, etc.

And people knew. In my dad's senior year of high school, 1933, they had a German guy come over and tell them EXACTLY what Hitler's plans were.

This was in Vestaburg Pennsylvania. Good luck finding it on a map.

If they knew there and then, they knew everywhere.


The State Department knew but were highly anti-semetic at the time. They refused to believe, calling the evidence Zionist propaganda.

234 Dreader1962  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:57:45am

Hitchens has a commentary on the Iran situation that is very worthwhile:

Hitchens - Persian Paranoia

Quoted from the end of the commentary:

Coexistence with a nuclearized, fascistic theocracy in Iran is impossible even in the short run. The mullahs understand this with perfect clarity. Why can't we?

235 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:58:00am

re: #125 The Shadow Do

CNN has the coverage in Iran. They just had an extended interview by phone with a 19 year old young woman. She said she had friends killed and that she had been beaten. She said there were more women than men in the streets. Why? Because for once they felt they could be heard and make a difference. Very intersting.

Yo, Time Magazine... I nominated as the next "Person of the Year" the Persian Woman.

236 Sharmuta  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:58:19am

re: #229 pat

Charles update makes perfect sense. It was the message of women's rights that has triggered these demonstrations. And since her father was with her, the wish must run deeply in Iranian society. Likely he can still remember when Tehran was an international, secular city. With open dating, coed classes and recreation, along with the highest literacy rate in the entire Muslim world.

Islam faces no greater threat than that of feminism.

237 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:58:46am

re: #219 Dianna

OR, she was too deep in shock for calm resignation.

Intellectually, I know that. Symbolically, though...

238 avanti  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:58:56am

CNN covering the crowds hollering from the roof tops again. (God is great) just now.

239 MacDuff  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:59:10am

re: #222 Rancher

We talk about the muted support coming from Obama but where is the support from Muslims around the world? Had this woman been shot by Zionists or an American Marine the "street" would be out in the millions protesting. Mullahs can do no wrong.

Alas, 'tis the regrettable state of the Islamic world; a profound lack of introspection and a plethora of denial.

240 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:59:12am

re: #226 jcm

Everyone needs to look into those eyes.

What do you say to someone just before the light leaves those eyes?

(rhetorically) What do you pray?

241 Dianna  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:59:25am

re: #226 jcm

Everyone needs to look into those eyes.

What do you say to someone just before the light leaves those eyes?

"I love you."

242 yma o hyd  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:59:27am

Meanwhile its night in iran:

'Tehran is now alive again with the sound of the people - Allah Akbar - Death to the Dictator - #Iranelection
'confirmed source - All major cities in Iran now reporting saound of Allah Akbar - Death to the Dictator #Iranelection'
(Both: persiankiwi)

243 Abu Lahab  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 10:59:39am

I hope President Obama watches this video. I totally agree with this article: Shame On You, Mr. President
It says it all.
This video is so moving, and this is a tiny part that reached us through censorship.

244 sphincter  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:00:20am

What a horrible thing to see! That will haunt me the rest of the days of my life.

245 Son of the Black Dog  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:00:28am

re: #159 Dianna

And, in this case, one of those determined to be an innocent by-stander.

This young woman was a patriot just by being on the street that day, if only to observe.

And I don't believe she was hit by a stray bullet or a ricochet. IMHO, this was an aimed shot, either from a rooftop sniper (my guess), or one of the government thugs with a pistol. I'd bet on the former, the latter would have had to have been a very good shot.

246 avanti  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:01:27am

re: #236 Sharmuta

Islam faces no greater threat than that of feminism.

The gals in the CNN news room got emotional when a Iranian gal on the phone said there were more woman out protesting for freedom then guys.

247 J.D.  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:02:00am

re: #234 Dreader1962

Coexistence with a nuclearized, fascistic theocracy in Iran is impossible even in the short run. The mullahs understand this with perfect clarity. Why can't we the rest of them?
248 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:02:00am

if the US adopts harsh rhetoric at the regime, then it will make her sacrifice mean so much less.

249 American Sabra  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:02:09am

re: #222 Rancher

We talk about the muted support coming from Obama but where is the support from Muslims around the world? Had this woman been shot by Zionists or an American Marine the "street" would be out in the millions protesting. Mullahs can do no wrong.

They're scared of the Mullahs. For real real, not for play play. For all the talk about how evil and deadly the Zionists are, they know it's not true. They don't taunt the Mullahs. They constantly taunt the Zionists. They knew we'll do nothing. They try it on the Mullahs, Hamas, Hizbollah, etc. they're dead men.

250 JohnnyReb  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:02:17am

re: #224 wahabicorridor

Exactly right. The Germans had a lot of help with the Holocaust - Poles, Ukranians, etc.

And people knew. In my dad's senior year of high school, 1933, they had a German guy come over and tell them EXACTLY what Hitler's plans were.

This was in Vestaburg Pennsylvania. Good luck finding it on a map.

If they knew there and then, they knew everywhere.

Everyone in charge of anywhere in Europe knew what Hitlers plans for the Jews were after 1936. I mean he did write a book about what he was going to do when/if he got into power. It was required reading for pretty much all German government workers and the entire General Staff of the military by then. It was not a secret by any means.

251 MacDuff  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:02:19am

re: #243 Abu Lahab

I hope President Obama watches this video. I totally agree with this article: Shame On You, Mr. President
It says it all.
This video is so moving, and this is a tiny part that reached us through censorship.

That's a very good point to remember; she's only the tip of the horrific iceberg that is currently Iran.

252 yma o hyd  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:02:55am

RT @BoomGenRT @persiankiwi Combatant Clerics Group (powerful mullah union) strongly supported Mir Hossein Mousavi in Qom Today #Iranelection'
(LaraABC)

Rafsanjani is rumoured to be in Qom ...

253 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:02:58am

re: #193 DistantThunder

Imagine if they'd have had cell phones at Auschwitz.

The cell phones would have been confiscated before they boarded the trains.

254 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:03:00am

re: #246 avanti

The gals in the CNN news room got emotional when a Iranian gal on the phone said there were more woman out protesting for freedom then guys.

Now, I wonder when we can get the same "feeling" from Obama. So far, I don't feel the pain coming from him.

255 jcm  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:03:05am

re: #246 avanti

The gals in the CNN news room got emotional when a Iranian gal on the phone said there were more woman out protesting for freedom then guys.

The women are more repressed under the Mullahs.

256 Flyers1974  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:03:20am

re: #222 Rancher

We talk about the muted support coming from Obama but where is the support from Muslims around the world? Had this woman been shot by Zionists or an American Marine the "street" would be out in the millions protesting. Mullahs can do no wrong.

I think most are uninterested. In my opinion, part of reason is that the idea of regime change scares them, i.e. what comes next after a change may be worse. The other part is as you implied, muslim v. muslim.

257 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:03:30am

re: #231 wahabicorridor

Apparently she took a break in Cuba before settling in Canada.

She went to Cuba with permission of the Vietnamese regime. The prolonged "stopover" in Canada... that was HER idea!

258 captdiggs  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:03:55am

Such a beautiful woman...and so utterly sad.

259 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:04:21am

re: #248 spacejesus

if the US adopts harsh rhetoric at the regime, then it will make her sacrifice mean so much less.

Yep, I suspect the early Christians should have kept their mouths shut too. Wouldn't want that Jewish upstart to get any traction.

260 subsailor68  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:04:33am

I just wonder what kind of evil it takes for someone to deliberately take aim at an unarmed young woman in the streets. It's not just evil, it's the ultimate in cowardice. Whoever fired that shot deserves to burn in Hell, and - if there is any justice - will.

The sooner, the better.

261 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:04:54am

re: #253 Alouette

The cell phones would have been confiscated before they boarded the trains.

Well... if you want to get all literalist about, the cellphones wouldn't have worked, anyway. ("No Signal... for the next 50 years")

262 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:05:40am

re: #235 Occasional Reader

Yo, Time Magazine... I nominated as the next "Person of the Year" the Persian Woman.

With Time you are more likely to Khomenei

263 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:05:42am

re: #235 Occasional Reader

Yo, Time Magazine... I nominated as the next "Person of the Year" the Persian Woman.

nominated = nominate

264 Sharmuta  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:05:57am

re: #246 avanti

The gals in the CNN news room got emotional when a Iranian gal on the phone said there were more woman out protesting for freedom then guys.

I'm emotional. I stand with my sisters in Iran. Their bravery inspires me. And I know I would be in the streets with them because for me- life under mullahs would be no life. To not have the ability to decide for myself or fight for my rights- I would fight to live my own life.

May God be with my Iranian Sisters.

265 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:06:21am

re: #262 The Shadow Do

With Time you are more likely to Khomenei

Or Obama. Again.

"This Year, He's Even Dreamier!"

266 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:06:32am

Just saw the former crown prince of Iran giving a press conference at the National Press Club. More or less saying that the path Obama and the US Govt. is currently taking is the right thing to do since if they do more, they will be seen as interfering with Iranian affairs and it will make the demands of the protestors illegitimate for many Iranians. We need to hold our tongues and let the actions of Iran's own citizens do the talking.

267 American Sabra  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:06:37am

re: #226 jcm

Everyone needs to look into those eyes.

What do you say to someone just before the light leaves those eyes?

I was with my father the night he died. I watched him leave his body, cross over and fade away. It was my worst and best moment but something I couldn't possibly trade.

I think to be with someone when they cross is the greatest gift you can give them. This woman knew what was happening. She saw the people there helping her, even as she was slipping away. She felt them trying to save her life. It's an immense tragedy she had to go at all, but she left being loved and she knew it. There's nothing on earth that can replace that.

268 albusteve  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:06:45am

re: #260 subsailor68

I just wonder what kind of evil it takes for someone to deliberately take aim at an unarmed young woman in the streets. It's not just evil, it's the ultimate in cowardice. Whoever fired that shot deserves to burn in Hell, and - if there is any justice - will.

The sooner, the better.

yes, but there is plenty more brutality that's not getting this much attention...if you go out onto the streets you should be there to fight....alot of gawkers are getting whacked

269 MacDuff  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:07:03am

re: #248 spacejesus

Sorry, I'm not buying that one and it's a bit tacky to peddle that brand of lameness on this thread.

270 wahabicorridor  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:07:09am

re: #233 Rancher

The State Department knew but were highly anti-semetic at the time. They refused to believe, calling the evidence Zionist propaganda.

Well, here's what Dad told me. He was a B-26 pilot stationed in England. That plane didn't have the range to bomb Germany - he mostly bombed France (I've seen his mission book). He was quite clear that everyone knew what was happening to the Jews. Maybe not the gas chambers and the ovens, but certainly the slave camps where the inevitable outcome was death.

There was concern throughout the Allied gov'ts that if too much help was obviously given to help the Jews, support for the war would be seriously eroded, as it would be perceived as 'The Jews War'.

Keep in mind, the UK had a long history in 'Palestine', etc.

Dad said that during their bombing runs, the Germans would let them in and then engage them in dogfights on their way out when they were low on fuel. That pissed him off - he wanted to see a lot fewer of them on the way home. So on the way in, he'd get on their radio frequency and imitate them "Juden! Juden!" so they'd think someone had actually spotted a Jewish Allied plane. They broke formation EVERY TIME and the gunners to try to take them.

Pretty soon, the word came down that if bomber command ever found out who was pulling that stunt, there would be hell to pay.

271 yma o hyd  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:07:23am

'Hospital sources - as many as 47 killed so far by Gov in the streets - #Iranelection'
Hospital sources - at least 1000 people injured so far by Gov in the streets against Sea of Green - #Iranelection '

'unconfirmed - Gov will shortly start to expel foreign embassy staff & diplomats - #Iranelection'
'unconfirmed - newspaper editors/journalists refusing to print false Gov stories - #Iranelection'
(all: persiankiwi)

272 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:08:49am

re: #186 zombie

Turns out it was just a tranny -- wearing the strangest tranny costume ever!

Heh. Only you, zombie!

I've seen The Full Burqa a few times here in DC, but only a few.

273 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:08:54am

re: #245 Son of the Black Dog

This young woman was a patriot just by being on the street that day, if only to observe.

And I don't believe she was hit by a stray bullet or a ricochet. IMHO, this was an aimed shot, either from a rooftop sniper (my guess), or one of the government thugs with a pistol. I'd bet on the former, the latter would have had to have been a very good shot.

Same day there was another video circulating - of a young man also shot through the heart. I do not think it a coincidence. These are sniper attacks meant to strike fear in the crowd.

Who knows how many more shot down like this. I think quite a few.

274 J.D.  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:09:11am

re: #271 yma o hyd

'unconfirmed - newspaper editors/journalists refusing to print false Gov stories - #Iranelection'


That's brave.

275 wahabicorridor  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:09:32am

re: #250 JohnnyReb

I mean he did write a book about what he was going to do when/if he got into power.

Have you ever read it? It is the oddest combination of turgid and incoherent I've ever encountered. And apparently it's the same in the German language.

276 jcm  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:10:04am

re: #248 spacejesus

if the US adopts harsh rhetoric at the regime evil, then it will make her sacrifice mean so much less.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Edmund Burke.

277 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:10:22am

re: #259 Walter L. Newton

Yep, I suspect the early Christians should have kept their mouths shut too. Wouldn't want that Jewish upstart to get any traction.

you are insane. those early christians were part of the christian movement. you are not an iranian, hence not a part of the iranian freedom movement.

what you're advocating is akin to buddhists coming in and telling the apostles and early christians what to do and what to write about jesus and his pacifist teachings.


also, see my 266.

278 albusteve  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:10:28am

re: #270 wahabicorridor

the P-51 solved that problem

279 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:11:03am

re: #266 SpaceJesus

More people are starting to realize this. Lizards were discussing it last night. There are die hard ODS sufferers who will never change their minds. Check out this guy....
Understanding Obama on Iran

The fact is that, as a man of the hard Left, Obama is more comfortable with a totalitarian Islamic regime than he would be with a free Iranian society. In this he is no different from his allies like the Congressional Black Caucus and Bill Ayers, who have shown themselves perfectly comfortable with Castro and Chàvez. Indeed, he is the product of a hard-Left tradition that apologized for Stalin and was more comfortable with the Soviets than the anti-Communists (and that, in Soros parlance, saw George Bush as a bigger terrorist than bin Laden).

Because of obvious divergences (inequality for women and non-Muslims, hatred of homosexuals) radical Islam and radical Leftism are commonly mistaken to be incompatible. In fact, they have much more in common than not, especially when it comes to suppression of freedom, intrusiveness in all aspects of life, notions of "social justice," and their economic programs.

This is what passes for conservative thought in some circles.

280 yma o hyd  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:11:18am

'Mousavi has today had a meeting with several high rank clerics from Qom - #Iranelection'
(persiankiwi)

There is much going on being the scenes - but to me it looks as if these clerics are trying to stem the tide which has been unleashed by the dissidents, not just in Tehran but in most of Iran.

They may well be to late ...

281 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:11:39am

re: #270 wahabicorridor

Well, here's what Dad told me. He was a B-26 pilot stationed in England. That plane didn't have the range to bomb Germany - he mostly bombed France (I've seen his mission book). He was quite clear that everyone knew what was happening to the Jews. Maybe not the gas chambers and the ovens, but certainly the slave camps where the inevitable outcome was death.

There was concern throughout the Allied gov'ts that if too much help was obviously given to help the Jews, support for the war would be seriously eroded, as it would be perceived as 'The Jews War'.

Keep in mind, the UK had a long history in 'Palestine', etc.

Dad said that during their bombing runs, the Germans would let them in and then engage them in dogfights on their way out when they were low on fuel. That pissed him off - he wanted to see a lot fewer of them on the way home. So on the way in, he'd get on their radio frequency and imitate them "Juden! Juden!" so they'd think someone had actually spotted a Jewish Allied plane. They broke formation EVERY TIME and the gunners to try to take them.

Pretty soon, the word came down that if bomber command ever found out who was pulling that stunt, there would be hell to pay.

Read "A Year in Treblinka" published in 1943, they knew about the GAS and death camps.

282 wahabicorridor  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:11:44am

re: #257 Occasional Reader

Indeed!

283 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:11:54am

re: #278 albusteve

the P-51 solved that problem

"CADILLAC OF THE SKIES!"

-Bestest scene evah in Empire of the Sun

284 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:12:18am

re: #276 jcm

Yeah, I know, you encountered him yesterday too ...
..... (in that toilet you had to unclog)

/or was that the bathtub drain? ... whichever

285 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:12:47am

re: #269 MacDuff

Sorry, I'm not buying that one and it's a bit tacky to peddle that brand of lameness on this thread.


yeah, well go ahead and jump on the GOP bandwagon with mccain and company. go on tv, go to the UN, make it very clear to the iranian population that america is siding with the protesters, then watch as the movement falls apart.

286 MacDuff  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:13:02am

re: #274 J.D.

That's brave.

Courage inspires courage in others, and that is the real wild card in this situation. I think that once the Iranian people smell victory, it's over.

287 avanti  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:13:23am

re: #243 Abu Lahab

I hope President Obama watches this video. I totally agree with this article: Shame On You, Mr. President
It says it all.
This video is so moving, and this is a tiny part that reached us through censorship.

Again, the POTUS would be going against the best advice from his intelligence community, and the Iranian resistance to interfere in a internal matter. He's always spoken out strongly about the right to protest, and against the violence directed at the protesters. To do more, would just mobilize the other side against the protesters and the great Satan. Nothing would unite Iranians behind there government more then the perception that the US was again trying to pick it's leaders.
I suspect he'll ratchet up the rhetoric, but he has to tread carefully. Better to let other western countries speak up, they were not as responsible for the Shah as we were.

288 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:13:37am

re: #266 SpaceJesus

We need to hold our tongues and let the actions of Iran's own citizens do the talking.

Mmmkay. And how do you qualify Obama's statement last week to the effect that the "Supreme Leader" is, like, rilly rilly concerned about the election irregularities?

Does "holding our tongue" actually include pretending that the mullahs are democrats?

289 JohnnyReb  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:13:38am

re: #275 wahabicorridor

Have you ever read it? It is the oddest combination of turgid and incoherent I've ever encountered. And apparently it's the same in the German language.

I have read it years and years ago. He was a madman when he wrote that book and just became worse as he got older.

290 Kenneth  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:13:40am

Winston has a new report today...

Uprising is on

This is Monday in Iran and we're 8 days into the popular uprising against the Islamic regime. Just because we did not hear much about the clashes on Sunday does not mean that they didn't occur. The regime has been relatively successful in keeping foreign media away from protesters.

I have been unable to get in touch with relatives and my friends across the country and honestly I didn't push it because I worried they might get in trouble if they received calls from outside world any ways. Every time I have conveyed the news to them, the calls dropped.

And then there are still pro-mullahs morons in the US and Canada who argue that the western gov'ts should stay away from the cause of the Iranian people. I thought this article by Walid Phares should be a good response to them:

"The reality is that those who are advancing this argument are in fact trying to shield the Iranian regime in the West. The Khomeinist propaganda machine is unleashing all doubts possible about international support to the demonstrators. In fact, the tipping point against the ayatollahs’s militias is precisely a world outcry in defense of the uprising. Presently there are no neutral Iranians who could be irritated by American or Western verbal support to democracy in Iran. The argument is inserted in the debate to confuse the public and mollify outside solidarity."

291 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:14:15am

re: #224 wahabicorridor

Exactly right. The Germans had a lot of help with the Holocaust - Poles, Ukranians, etc.

And people knew. In my dad's senior year of high school, 1933, they had a German guy come over and tell them EXACTLY what Hitler's plans were.

This was in Vestaburg Pennsylvania. Good luck finding it on a map.

If they knew there and then, they knew everywhere.

I watched Defiance last night. Excellent movie, everyone should see it! I have some minor quibbles about the quality of the sets and the use of language (The Russians speak Russians and the Germans speak German but the main characters speak English with Yiddish accents) but other than that FIVE STARS

292 yma o hyd  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:14:34am

There's more:

'iranelection Opp hoping for general strike and bazaar shutdown tomorrow'
'#iranelection Closing bazaar would have huge economic and symbolic impact'
(JimSciutto)

The Shah was finished once the bazars closed and the bazar merchants turned against his regime ...
If tis really gets off the ground tomorrow, then Khamenei won't last long.

293 wahabicorridor  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:14:50am

re: #278 albusteve

the P-51 solved that problem

Yes, and Dad loved them dearly.

I think the other think that helped considerably - the Lufwaffe guys were never rotated. They flied till they died.

294 Abu Lahab  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:15:15am

re: #264 Sharmuta

Read this article, I think you may appreciate it.
No Matter Who Is President of Iran, They Would Stone Me

295 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:15:29am

re: #279 Killgore Trout

More people are starting to realize this. Lizards were discussing it last night. There are die hard ODS sufferers who will never change their minds. Check out this guy....
Understanding Obama on Iran

This is what passes for conservative thought in some circles.

re: #279 Killgore Trout

More people are starting to realize this. Lizards were discussing it last night. There are die hard ODS sufferers who will never change their minds. Check out this guy....
Understanding Obama on Iran

This is what passes for conservative thought in some circles.

You do this all the time. Equate an article like the one you link to above to CONSERVATIVES on LGF.

There is only a small number of conservative Lizards who would agree with this extreme rhetoric.

But you constantly set up strawmen, and then applying the labels to commenters here.

Many of us are NOT like the folks you link to.

296 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:15:30am

re: #279 Killgore Trout

More people are starting to realize this. Lizards were discussing it last night. There are die hard ODS sufferers who will never change their minds. Check out this guy....
Understanding Obama on Iran

This is what passes for conservative thought in some circles.


these republican obama-dementia types are either being very opportunistic, or extremely short-sighted about what they're advocating. I sincerely hope it's the latter, since the former would make me very angry having seen what many Iranians are giving to have their voices heard right now.

297 albusteve  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:15:41am

re: #283 Occasional Reader

"CADILLAC OF THE SKIES!"

-Bestest scene evah in Empire of the Sun

my dad's brother and his cousin both flew them in the big war...one out of England the other from Italy....warriors

298 jcm  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:15:55am

re: #290 Kenneth

Winston has a new report today...

Uprising is on

And then there are still pro-mullahs morons in the US and .....
re: #285 SpaceJesus

yeah, well go ahead and jump on the GOP bandwagon with mccain and company. go on tv, go to the UN, make it very clear to the iranian population that america is siding with the protesters, then watch as the movement falls apart.

299 JohnnyReb  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:16:37am

re: #295 Walter L. Newton

You do this all the time. Equate an article like the one you link to above to CONSERVATIVES on LGF.

There is only a small number of conservative Lizards who would agree with this extreme rhetoric.

But you constantly set up strawmen, and then applying the labels to commenters here.

Many of us are NOT like the folks you link to.


KT has only one paint brush and it is a very, very wide one.

300 Abu Lahab  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:16:49am

re: #287 avanti

I see your point, but it's still very frustrating.

301 albusteve  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:17:01am

re: #279 Killgore Trout

I don't see your ODS there at all....you are stretching

302 subsailor68  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:17:19am

re: #291 Alouette

I watched Defiance last night. Excellent movie, everyone should see it! I have some minor quibbles about the quality of the sets and the use of language (The Russians speak Russians and the Germans speak German but the main characters speak English with Yiddish accents) but other than that FIVE STARS

Hi Alouette! Hope you got the DVD with the extras on it. The video of the two brothers and their families taken years later (at the parties, etc.) was terrific. They looked like regular guys you'd see on the street, or at the supermarket, never realizing the courage they displayed, and the miraculous things they accomplished. Wonderful movie!

303 wahabicorridor  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:17:31am

re: #281 Walter L. Newton

Read "A Year in Treblinka" published in 1943, they knew about the GAS and death camps.

Out of Print.

:(

My German teacher, Hilde, was from Munich. She said they knew immediately. After the Nurenberg laws were enacted her and her husband's families gave them all the money they could to get them out.

They were the only ones who did get out. She assured me, they knew in '33.

304 doppelganglander  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:17:45am

re: #186 zombie

That's a great story. I've seen exactly two - together, in my local supermarket in middle class suburbia. There is a small mosque about 3 miles up the road, so I'm accustomed to women in hijab wearing long-sleeved Western clothing. That doesn't bother me at all - in fact, the modesty is almost refreshing, considering what some girls wear around here in hot weather. The burqas, however, completely pissed me off. They are a negation of a woman's humanity, even her very existence.

305 avanti  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:17:46am

re: #254 Walter L. Newton

Now, I wonder when we can get the same "feeling" from Obama. So far, I don't feel the pain coming from him.

I think that her death could be the seed for a great speech about freedom of protest that would not involve taking sides in a desputed election and I hope he gives it. She could be even a more powerful symbol of the desire for freedom.

306 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:17:56am

I just received a weird email from someone with an IP address in the US, claiming that the Neda video was staged.

307 MacDuff  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:17:56am

re: #285 SpaceJesus

As God is my witness, if I could somehow make the Iranian people aware of the level of moral support they have in this country, I would do it in a heartbeat.

Obviously, you wouldn't and therein lies your problem. Space Jesus, indeed.

308 lawhawk  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:18:02am

re: #283 Occasional Reader

Youtube Video
309 Sharmuta  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:18:05am

re: #294 Abu Lahab

Read this article, I think you may appreciate it.
No Matter Who Is President of Iran, They Would Stone Me

Thanks

310 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:18:41am

re: #299 JohnnyReb

KT has only one paint brush and it is a very, very wide one.

And he is not fooling anyone here. Over and over, he tries to lump everyone "else" into some bucket, mainly folks who don't agree with him, or have some point of contention.

It doesn't work.

311 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:18:43am

re: #291 Alouette

(The Russians speak Russians and the Germans speak German but the main characters speak English with Yiddish accents)

I also found that annoying. Either be authentic, challenge the audience, and have everyone speak in the actual language (with subtitles); or, simply have the English-speaking actors speak English, with the shared understanding with your audience that we're making believe they're speaking Yiddish. But English with the phoney-baloney accent? It's kind of insulting to the audience. (Also, it seems to be a conciet unique to Hollywood; you don't see, for instance, movies from the Spanish-speaking world, in which Americans are depicted as standing around speaking to each other in Spanish with American accents.)

312 yma o hyd  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:18:48am

A statement by Mr Karoubi, the other reform candidate, seems to have come out.
Here are some tweeted snippets:

'Karoubi - Para 29 of Constitution allows unarmed public gatherings without permit if they do not insult Islam - #Iranelection'
'Karoubi - the right of the nation to challenge this unfair & corrupt election is the right of all muslims #Iranelection'
'Karoubi - In Iran the minority are ruling the majority with violence and oppression - #Iranelection'
(all: persiankiwi)

313 Ojoe  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:19:04am

May Neda Soltan's death not be in vain, and may it topple the murderous mullahs who have done things like

This

WHich I have never been able to forget. They have been killing the innocent for a long time.

314 JohnnyReb  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:20:10am

re: #306 Charles

I just received a weird email from someone with an IP address in the US, claiming that the Neda video was staged.


Anything is possible I guess.

315 Kragar  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:20:14am

re: #306 Charles

I just received a weird email from someone with an IP address in the US, claiming that the Neda video was staged.

Fucking idiot probably has proof that 9/11 was staged and knows where Barry's secret nirth certifikat is hidden too.

316 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:20:18am

re: #308 lawhawk

I think it's the single greatest scene Spielberg has ever directed. (Also, the best movie he's directed.)

317 Abu Lahab  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:21:01am

re: #306 Charles

Maybe the IP of the Iranian Embassy's media officer

318 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:21:03am

re: #305 avanti

I think that her death could be the seed for a great speech about freedom of protest that would not involve taking sides in a desputed election and I hope he gives it. She could be even a more powerful symbol of the desire for freedom.

Well, talking about how you "hope" Obama gives a great speech about her death is almost like looking for the elusive "change" that he promised. A lot of rhetoric, very short on any action.

Keep the faith.

319 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:21:16am

re: #306 Charles

I just received a weird email from someone with an IP address in the US, claiming that the Neda video was staged.

And I received an offer to deposit Imelda Marcos' millions in my bank account!

320 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:21:23am

OT: Looking for a good non-fiction book on intelligence services in the US, any time period. Any suggestions? Also, any books on others would work as well.

321 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:21:32am

re: #298 jcm


oh yes, im so pro-mullah. allah akbar. shut up and read my posts.

322 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:21:51am

re: #307 MacDuff

Obviously, you wouldn't and therein lies your problem. Space Jesus, indeed.

*GASP*
How can you say such a thing to the Socrates of the Blogosphere?!

/do I need it?

323 Nevergiveup  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:22:15am

re: #314 JohnnyReb

Anything is possible I guess.

It looked pretty authentic to me, but we should remember that the claim that the Iraqis threw Kuwaiti babies out of the incubators was apparently not true.

324 Ojoe  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:23:06am

re: #321 SpaceJesus

Personal arguing looks pretty small in the face of the subject of this thread.

325 StillAMarine  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:23:10am

re: #272 Occasional Reader

Heh. Only you, zombie!

I've seen The Full Burqa a few times here in DC, but only a few.

Yeah. I met one lady in a burqa - as she served my wife a hot dog (definitely not kosher since it was pork). So what is all this about Muslims not being allowed to handle pork?

As for Neda Salehi Agha Soltan, I cannot comment too much as I tend to get very emotional. I hope that picture of the spirit of an innocent as it leaves life behind helps bring down that evil regime.

326 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:23:24am

re: #296 SpaceJesus


these republican obama-dementia types are either being very opportunistic, or extremely short-sighted about what they're advocating.


Both.

327 Nevergiveup  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:23:43am

21:05 Russia: Issues linked to Iran`s presidential election are Iran`s internal affair (Reuters

328 LGoPs  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:23:50am

re: #311 Occasional Reader

I also found that annoying. Either be authentic, challenge the audience, and have everyone speak in the actual language (with subtitles); or, simply have the English-speaking actors speak English, with the shared understanding with your audience that we're making believe they're speaking Yiddish. But English with the phoney-baloney accent? It's kind of insulting to the audience. (Also, it seems to be a conciet unique to Hollywood; you don't see, for instance, movies from the Spanish-speaking world, in which Americans are depicted as standing around speaking to each other in Spanish with American accents.)

Speaking with an accent in movies doesn't really bother me. What does bother me is when I see an American in Germany for example, speak English with a German accent and expecting to be understood. Kind of hilarious actually.

329 wahabicorridor  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:23:54am

re: #306 Charles

I just received a weird email from someone with an IP address in the US, claiming that the Neda video was staged.

Someone upthread posted two links to videos of this. Check out #2. There are just a few seconds where blood is POURING out of her mouth.

Not. Staged.

330 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:24:24am

re: #307 MacDuff

As God is my witness, if I could somehow make the Iranian people aware of the level of moral support they have in this country, I would do it in a heartbeat.

Obviously, you wouldn't and therein lies your problem. Space Jesus, indeed.


good god, are you simple? there are lots of people in iran who don't like the US due to what he have done in the past to their country. do you understand this? many of those people are on the fence about supporting the protesters, and if we voice our strong support for the protesters, we lose the fence-sitters? do you understand? this shit is not as simple as you've made it out to be.

331 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:24:28am

re: #306 Charles

I think that's pretty unlikely.

332 yma o hyd  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:24:30am

From the blog recommended by Winston:

'"Frightening reports coming from Tabriz (Mousavi’s hometown); they resemble Saturday’s massacre in Tehran"
8:31
England restricts travels to Iran, withdraws embassy families stationed in Tehran
8:33
Police Using Gunfire, Tear gas,Electric Bat. Clashes at Enghelab SQ
8:35
people:Regime of Coup d'état, abdicate, abdicate!
8:40
Maziyar Bahari arrested in Tehran. he was Newsweek reporter
8:43
In Enghelab sq. police shooting the air, using tear gas & electric batons
8:50
People are gathering near Mellat Park (North Tehran) Near State TV, Trafic Jamm & Lights and Horn
9:00
At least 47 killed and 1206 injured from this days!
9:15
Scattered conflict on streets around TV station and Mellat park and Jame Jam
9:20
Clashes at Oromieh, Police used teargas
9:24
In today's conflict some women and girls sent to the hospital as the clubs injured their heads
10:00
At least more than 80 of today’s protesters have been arrested by anti-riot police'
[Link: shooresh1917.blogspot.com...]

333 CIA Reject  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:24:44am

re: #320 Creeping Eruption

OT: Looking for a good non-fiction book on intelligence services in the US, any time period. Any suggestions? Also, any books on others would work as well.

I highly recommend this.

334 zombie  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:24:44am

re: #306 Charles

I just received a weird email from someone with an IP address in the US, claiming that the Neda video was staged.

Save that. I'd be willing to be they sent the email at the behest of the iranian government. They are big into disinformation campaigns right now. They're doing fake Twittering, fake video uploads, etc., all in an effort to drown out the truth with white noise and fake news.

Maybe one day that IP address will be evidence of Iran's government misdeeds.

335 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:24:49am

re: #311 Occasional Reader

conciet

[sigh]

336 Racer X  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:25:14am

Is it Friday?

I need a drink.

Or something.

I'm agreeing with avanti, KT, and spacejesus.

Must be lack of oxygen or something.

337 avanti  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:25:46am

re: #300 Abu Lahab

I see your point, but it's still very frustrating.

No question it's frustrating, not just for us, but our leaders. If you think the POTUS has been advised that there is a simple fix, and he's just ignoring it, you would have to be very cynical. If a few words from him would actually help the protesters, it would surely be a win-win for him to say them.
It's very easy to scream "Do something" in frustration, but very few have suggested what that something would be.

338 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:26:01am

re: #320 Creeping Eruption

OT: Looking for a good non-fiction book on intelligence services in the US, any time period. Any suggestions? Also, any books on others would work as well.

Body of Secrets, by James Bamford, is a good one about NSA. He shows some anti-Israel bias in it, but I still liked the book.

339 Baier  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:26:10am

re: #306 Charles

I just received a weird email from someone claiming that the Neda video was staged. With an IP address in the US.

I would be very surprised if that turned out to be true.

340 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:26:13am

re: #333 CIA Reject

I highly recommend this.

Great. Exactly what I am looking for. Anymore?

341 zombie  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:26:24am

re: #317 Abu Lahab

Maybe the IP of the Iranian Embassy's media officer

That's what I'm thinking.

Maybe google the exact IP address -- maybe someone else has posted it, having received similar emails from this "person."

342 Abu Lahab  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:26:31am

re: #334 zombie

Exactly! And the Iranian government is a master in staging badly photoshoped photos, so they think that everything is staged or fake.

343 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:26:38am

re: #334 zombie

They are posting video on liveleak and youtube with titles like "Protesters attack police, burn bodies" etc.

344 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:27:13am

re: #338 Mad Al-Jaffee

Body of Secrets, by James Bamford, is a good one about NSA. He shows some anti-Israel bias in it, but I still liked the book.

Cool. Any more?

345 wahabicorridor  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:27:25am

re: #320 Creeping Eruption

OT: Looking for a good non-fiction book on intelligence services in the US, any time period. Any suggestions? Also, any books on others would work as well.

One of my favorites (Bearden was a long time CIA guy)

The Main Enemy

And the classic The Codebreakers

346 rightside  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:27:27am

re: #341 zombie

IP's can be spoofed from anywhere too.

347 DaddyG  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:27:37am

re: #40 Walter L. Newton

It doesn't really matter, it's not funny on a thread like this. Really bad taste, and that's coming from the king of bad taste, me.

Accepting your problems gift is the first step... //

348 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:27:42am
349 Nevergiveup  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:27:43am

re: #338 Mad Al-Jaffee

Body of Secrets, by James Bamford, is a good one about NSA. He shows some anti-Israel bias in it, but I still liked the book.

Some anti-Israeli bias? Well that is one way of putting it. But I agree with you that it is informational, but I did find it hard to plow thru his prejudices.

350 Charles Johnson  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:27:46am

re: #341 zombie

That's what I'm thinking.

Maybe google the exact IP address -- maybe someone else has posted it, having received similar emails from this "person."

IP is a standard consumer ISP. It was sent through the LGF contact form so I know it was a real human on the other end, not a bot. Fake return address.

351 MacDuff  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:28:05am

re: #322 pre-Boomer Marine brat

*GASP*
How can you say such a thing to the Socrates of the Blogosphere?!

/do I need it?

Assumed :)

352 CIA Reject  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:28:14am

re: #340 Creeping Eruption

Great. Exactly what I am looking for. Anymore?

This is another good one, but don't expect to be invited to many IC Christmas parties if you talk about reading it.

353 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:28:45am

re: #18 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

There is some sort of irony in a woman's death being a symbol to stand against one of the most vile misogynistic regimes on the planet.

It's very Persian, though.

There was a demo in SF yesterday, and this morning there was a lovely photo in the paper of her name spelled out in candles. Beautiful. Sad.

354 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:28:59am

re: #344 Creeping Eruption

Cool. Any more?

I can't think of any offhand. I can email my father and ask him. He used to be a specialist in non-fiction espionage books.

Jack Russell Smith (former CIA director, who recently died) wrote an interesting autobiography. I can't remember the title.

355 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:29:04am

re: #337 avanti

No question it's frustrating, not just for us, but our leaders. If you think the POTUS has been advised that there is a simple fix, and he's just ignoring it, you would have to be very cynical. If a few words from him would actually help the protesters, it would surely be a win-win for him to say them.
It's very easy to scream "Do something" in frustration, but very few have suggested what that something would be.

No, you haven't been LISTENING. A lot of us have been suggesting what Obama needs to do. There are hundreds of "freedom" speeches that Obama could take a lead from. He (or his advisors) just need to spend 30 minutes on google and work one up.

356 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:29:50am

re: #295 Walter L. Newton

You do this all the time. Equate an article like the one you link to above to CONSERVATIVES on LGF.

There is only a small number of conservative Lizards who would agree with this extreme rhetoric.

But you constantly set up strawmen, and then applying the labels to commenters here.

Many of us are NOT like the folks you link to.

If we were like the people he links to, we would be posting at Free Republic or Hotair, not here.

357 zombie  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:29:51am

re: #342 Abu Lahab

Exactly! And the Iranian government is a master in staging badly photoshoped photos, so they think that everything is staged or fake.

re: #343 Killgore Trout

They are posting video on liveleak and youtube with titles like "Protesters attack police, burn bodies" etc.

Iranians are not stupid people. Unfortunately, they sometimes use their intelligence for evil.

358 yma o hyd  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:29:58am

More from Mr Karoubi's statement:

'Karoubi - I invite the nation to participate on Thurs in rememberance of those killed by this Gov - #Iranelection'
'Karoubi - I demand release of all political prisoners immediately - #Iranelection'
'Karoubi - I demand gov provide medical treatment for those injured - #Iranelection'
'Karoubi - I demand that the bodies of the martyrs be released to the families for burial immediately #Iranelection'
'Karoubi - I demand an immediate end to censorship by gov - #Iranelection'
(All: persiankiwi)

359 shiplord kirel  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:30:01am

As we saw with the weird video yesterday, Iranian propaganda policy is based entirely on commercial-style conspiracy theories. This is, in fact, true of virtually all third world regimes. Not coincidentally, it is also the primary cultural basis for their left-wing support in the west. It is the driving force behind the international campaign against Israel as well.
We are living in some kind of dystopian science-fiction conspiracy world, people, and we must address the fact that fantastic mis-informed and dangerous beliefs, quite willfully promulgated by the mass media, are the root cause of the current world conflict.

360 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:30:01am

Thank you everyone for your suggestions. I think I have my summer reading list started.

361 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:30:15am

re: #349 Nevergiveup

Some anti-Israeli bias? Well that is one way of putting it. But I agree with you that it is informational, but I did find it hard to plow thru his prejudices.


It's been a long time since I read it, so I don't remember all of the negative stuff he wrote about Israel. I can really only remember things he said about the USS Liberty incident.

362 doppelganglander  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:30:30am

re: #328 LGoPs

Speaking with an accent in movies doesn't really bother me. What does bother me is when I see an American in Germany for example, speak English with a German accent and expecting to be understood. Kind of hilarious actually.

It's a known fact that the ancient Romans all spoke with a British accent.

363 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:30:31am

re: #337 avanti

If you think the POTUS has been advised that there is a simple fix, and he's just ignoring it,

BZZZZT. Straw man argument.

364 avanti  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:30:43am

re: #314 JohnnyReb

Anything is possible I guess.

It is "possible", but I'm convinced it's real. The fact that she's been named would make it more difficult to fake, but you can be certain there is disinformation from both sides without the press present to verify.

365 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:31:23am

re: #356 Alouette

If we were like the people he links to, we would be posting at Free Republic

While sharing plans on how to avoid DEPORTATION TO FEMA CAMPS! ! ! !

366 Kenneth  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:31:34am

re: #298 jcm

I'll take Winston's informed opinion over spacejesus' and his trollery any day.

367 MacDuff  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:31:37am

re: #355 Walter L. Newton

No, you haven't been LISTENING. A lot of us have been suggesting what Obama needs to do. There are hundreds of "freedom" speeches that Obama could take a lead from. He (or his advisors) just need to spend 30 minutes on google and work one up.

Or at least he could bring himself to utter the words FREEDOM or DEMOCRACY, which he failed to do do in Saturday's flaccid collection of words on the subject.

368 zombie  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:32:09am

re: #350 Charles

IP is a standard consumer ISP. It was sent through the LGF contact form so I know it was a real human on the other end, not a bot. Fake return address.

You can't trace them down to a specific location? I've always heard there were these traceroute techniques whereby if you were the NSA or the RIAA you can identify the exact building where an email is coming from. However, one probably needs the cooperation of the ISP to get to that level of detail.

369 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:32:17am

re: #362 doppelganglander

It's a known fact that the ancient Romans all spoke with a British accent.

English accent, specifically. Apparently, there were no Scottish or Welsh Romans!

370 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:32:49am

re: #350 Charles

I did a quick google and the only people who are discussing forgery possibilities seem to be FreeRepublic and co.

371 Nevergiveup  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:32:51am

re: #361 Mad Al-Jaffee

It's been a long time since I read it, so I don't remember all of the negative stuff he wrote about Israel. I can really only remember things he said about the USS Liberty incident.

Same here, I read it a while back and it was before I knew about him, and I had to stop and figure out what and who this guy was. I asked around and found out. But alot of his info on the NSA was interesting.

372 yma o hyd  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:32:52am

re: #350 Charles

IP is a standard consumer ISP. It was sent through the LGF contact form so I know it was a real human on the other end, not a bot. Fake return address.

There are quite a few Ahmadinejad supporters amongst the Iranians studying in the USA and the UK.
They are true apologetes, evidenced by their various posts and letters on coment pages - and of course, who is to say that tehre aren't some Iranian 'secret agents' around ...

373 A.W.  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:33:10am

Spacejesus

I understand the logic, but i keep thinking... um, if the protesters don't want our help... why are the signs so often in english?

besides we are going to be accused of meddling either way, so we might as well. in fact if i was president, i would hold up a picture of Neda and speak endlessly. i wouldn't let a sentence go by without mentioning her. then iran wouldn't be able to put up video or audio of me "interfering" without showing her face, or making it very obviously censored.

374 doppelganglander  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:33:18am

re: #344 Creeping Eruption

Cool. Any more?

I'm not sure if it would be what you're looking for, but The Puzzle Palace is a classic. When my husband was in the Navy, in an intelligence-related field, all his colleagues read it.

375 jcm  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:33:18am

re: #321 SpaceJesus

oh yes, im so pro-mullah. allah akbar. shut up and read my posts.

There is no fence.

Pick a side.

Not choosing a side is choosing.

376 Abu Lahab  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:33:51am

Someone just registered a Youtube account (it says 1 hour ago) called "NedaVideoStaged", and here is what he says : (I won't link to that guy and give him views)

Ever since I saw a twitter from Iran saying this was a propoganda video, I decided to check this video out. I was astonished to see that between the frames 10-16 seconds you could actually see someone pouring fake blood on this woman. I strongly urge you to watch it very carefully.


This is an absolute lie, because the blood was pouring from her nose and mouth.

377 lawhawk  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:33:59am

BBC reporting that the thugs in charge were fearful that there would be tremendous crowds showing up to memorialize Neda, so they've taken to cracking down on demonstrators in smaller groups to prevent them from organizing.

And she wasn't even participating in the demonstration when she was murdered:

The fiance of Neda Agha-Soltan, the young woman whose violent death during clashes in Tehran on Saturday was recorded on video and uploaded to the internet, has described the events leading up to her shooting in an interview for BBC Persian TV.

She had been sitting with her music teacher in a car, stuck in traffic, when she decided to get out because of the heat. “She got out of the car for just for a few minutes [and] that’s when she was shot dead,” said Kaspin Makan.

Mr Makan quoted eyewitnesses as saying she appeared to have been targeted deliberately by “paramilitaries in civilian clothing.”

He added that officials had prevented mourners holding a memorial service at a mosque on Monday. “The authorities are aware that everybody in Iran and throughout the whole world knows about her story,” he told the BBC. “They were afraid that lots of people could turn up.”

Depraved... and this is the regime in charge.

378 jcm  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:34:10am

re: #350 Charles

IP is a standard consumer ISP. It was sent through the LGF contact form so I know it was a real human on the other end, not a bot. Fake return address.

The image scares the Mullahs. Iranian agents have operated in the US before.

379 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:34:20am

Yes... get the new book by Avanti, Kt and SpaceJesus, "Political Diplomacy Without Leaving Upir Kitchen."

380 wahabicorridor  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:34:25am

re: #361 Mad Al-Jaffee

It's been a long time since I read it, so I don't remember all of the negative stuff he wrote about Israel. I can really only remember things he said about the USS Liberty incident.

Wait! Wait! One more!

Venona: Decoding Soviet Espionage in America

381 yma o hyd  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:34:50am

re: #362 doppelganglander

It's a known fact that the ancient Romans all spoke with a British accent.

Did they really?
Well, I never ...!

:-)

382 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:34:58am

re: #328 LGoPs

What does bother me is when I see an American in Germany for example, speak English with a German accent and expecting to be understood.

Of course, it probably "works"... because the German in question speaks English anyway!

(And to play devil's advocate for a moment; I wonder if the strategy isn't inadvertently helpful. I know, for example, that it's extremely easy for me to understand an American speaking Spanish with a strong "gringo" accent.)

383 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:34:59am

re: #367 MacDuff

Or at least he could bring himself to utter the words FREEDOM or DEMOCRACY, which he failed to do do in Saturday's flaccid collection of words on the subject.


oh heaven forbid someone use neutral rhetoric when wanting to remain neutral in a situation when remaining neutral is the best course of action.

384 StillAMarine  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:35:12am

re: #320 Creeping Eruption

OT: Looking for a good non-fiction book on intelligence services in the US, any time period. Any suggestions? Also, any books on others would work as well.

Yeah. Try "Deception: The Invisible War Between the KGB & the CIA"
by Edward Jay Epstein. A bit dated, but still controversial. And yes, I believe J.J.A. was correct.

385 DaddyG  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:35:14am

re: #369 Occasional Reader

English accent, specifically. Apparently, there were no Scottish or Welsh Romans!

Yet Moses spoke with an uncanny American accent. /

386 yma o hyd  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:35:25am

re: #366 Kenneth

I'll take Winston's informed opinion over spacejesus' and his trollery any day.

Indeed!

387 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:35:31am

re: #371 Nevergiveup

At the time I was reading it I was being recruited by NSA. I thought about bringing it with me during my two days of interviews and tests (they make you wait a long time during those days in between various things you go through) but I thought I would look - I don't know - pretentious or something like that. I read a lot of Entertainment Weekly's those two days. And I didn't get the job.

If you ever get a chance to visit this museum, I recommend it:

[Link: www.nsa.gov...]

388 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:35:31am

re: #379 Walter L. Newton

Yes... get the new book by Avanti, Kt and SpaceJesus, "Political Diplomacy Without Leaving Upir Kitchen."

How do I down ding myself? PIMF Upir = Your

389 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:35:33am

re: #370 Killgore Trout

I did a quick google and the only people who are discussing forgery possibilities seem to be FreeRepublic and co.

... and pro mullah twitter accounts.

390 Rednek  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:35:46am

An interesting photo

Rain drops covered a window of a building at Beijing’s Central Business District while Chinese President Hu Jintao spoke on a screen during a thunderstorm around lunch time Tuesday. A spokeswoman for Beijing’s Capital International airport said incoming and outgoing flights had been slightly delayed due to the thunder.(Alexander F. Yuan/Associated Press)

391 doppelganglander  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:35:46am

re: #369 Occasional Reader

English accent, specifically. Apparently, there were no Scottish or Welsh Romans!

Do you watch Dr. Who? There's a marvelous episode in which the Doctor and his companion (played by Catherine Tate) go back in time to Pompeii before the volcano. When she tries to use her schoolgirl Latin, people are confused and say, "sorry, I don't speak Gaelic." When they speak English, they're understood as speaking Latin.

392 Wendya  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:35:56am

re: #306 Charles

I just received a weird email from someone with an IP address in the US, claiming that the Neda video was staged.

The conspiracy theorists jumped right on that one. Some people are claiming it's a CIA staged event. After all, it didn't happen the way it happens in movies.

/

393 zombie  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:36:00am

re: #376 Abu Lahab

Someone just registered a Youtube account (it says 1 hour ago) called "NedaVideoStaged", and here is what he says : (I won't link to that guy and give him views)


This is an absolute lie, because the blood was pouring from her nose and mouth.

I am fully convinced that the iranian government at this very instant is starting a full-court press disinformation campaign to cast doubt on the Neda video. And I think the email Charles got is part of that campaign -- that's why I'm very curious about the IP.

Perhaps this is worth investigating further!

394 capitalist piglet  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:36:15am

re: #305 avanti

I think that her death could be the seed for a great speech about freedom of protest that would not involve taking sides in a desputed election and I hope he gives it. She could be even a more powerful symbol of the desire for freedom.

Maybe it's just me, or maybe I'm getting you wrong (again), avanti - but it would make me sick if he used her as you suggest. He wouldn't cross the fucking (yes, piglet said "fucking") street for this woman, but I don't doubt he would use her as an illustration in one of his bullshit speeches.

Just words. Just speeches. Just Obama.

No thanks.

395 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:36:49am

re: #383 SpaceJesus

oh heaven forbid someone use neutral rhetoric when wanting to remain neutral in a situation when remaining neutral is the best course of action.

There is no neutrality in the face of Evil, period.

396 yma o hyd  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:37:05am

re: #369 Occasional Reader

English accent, specifically. Apparently, there were no Scottish or Welsh Romans!

Scottish - no; Welsh - yes. (We got the roads, see ...)
Oh - and definitely no Irish!

397 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:37:20am

I liked See No Evil, but the movie based on it was horrible.

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

398 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:37:39am

re: #383 SpaceJesus

oh heaven forbid someone use neutral rhetoric when wanting to remain neutral in a situation when remaining neutral is the best course of action.

So you positively advocate "neutrality" as a position here, and not merely as a tactic.

Noted for the record.

399 Nevergiveup  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:37:40am

re: #375 jcm

There is no fence.

Pick a side.

Not choosing a side is choosing.

Gee I am not sure I can agree with you completely or with alot of enthusiasm on that one. I certainly feel for the protesters and their "apparent" desire to be "Free" but I am so uncertain as to who the "protesters" are and where they are heading? I am sure most any "regime change" would probably be good, but I am under no illusions that Iran is going to turn "Democratic" overnight or "Pro-West".

400 LGoPs  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:37:50am

re: #382 Occasional Reader

Of course, it probably "works"... because the German in question speaks English anyway!

(And to play devil's advocate for a moment; I wonder if the strategy isn't inadvertently helpful. I know, for example, that it's extremely easy for me to understand an American speaking Spanish with a strong "gringo" accent.)

LOL. I actually saw a young lieutenant order 'hom' in a German gasthaus from a waiter who spoke no English. The rest of us laughed and ordered schinken for him........
:)

401 DaddyG  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:37:56am

Claiming video of a victim is staged is pure psycho9logical projection on the part of Iranian leaders. After all its a standard propaganda tactic for their Hamas puppets as Charles and other bloggers have repeatedly demonstrated.

402 CIA Reject  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:38:07am

re: #360 Creeping Eruption

Thank you everyone for your suggestions. I think I have my summer reading list started.

Before you go - check this out. LOTS of good stuff there.

403 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:38:39am

re: #394 capitalist piglet

Maybe it's just me, or maybe I'm getting you wrong (again), avanti - but it would make me sick if he used her as you suggest. He wouldn't cross the fucking (yes, piglet said "fucking") street for this woman, but I don't doubt he would use her as an illustration in one of his bullshit speeches.

Just words. Just speeches. Just Obama.

No thanks.

Just projecting. This is the way a lot of liberals would use a dead person to their advantage, yet not accomplish anything. Look at Corey?

404 Abu Lahab  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:38:55am

re: #393 zombie

I totally agree, the person just registered a Youtube account with that name to post that message and cast doubt on the video. He is doing that for a purpose, and I'm sure this is a counter-campaign

405 Nevergiveup  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:38:56am

re: #387 Mad Al-Jaffee

At the time I was reading it I was being recruited by NSA. I thought about bringing it with me during my two days of interviews and tests (they make you wait a long time during those days in between various things you go through) but I thought I would look - I don't know - pretentious or something like that. I read a lot of Entertainment Weekly's those two days. And I didn't get the job.

If you ever get a chance to visit this museum, I recommend it:

[Link: www.nsa.gov...]

Thanks I will try. Fort Meade is outside DC right?

406 Kenneth  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:39:11am

re: #369 Occasional Reader

English accent, specifically. Apparently, there were no Scottish or Welsh Romans!

Ah... but there were no "English" during the era of ancient Rome. The Angle-Saxon invasion of Britain was still 5 centuries hence.

407 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:39:25am

re: #311 Occasional Reader

I also found that annoying. Either be authentic, challenge the audience, and have everyone speak in the actual language (with subtitles); or, simply have the English-speaking actors speak English, with the shared understanding with your audience that we're making believe they're speaking Yiddish. But English with the phoney-baloney accent? It's kind of insulting to the audience. (Also, it seems to be a conciet unique to Hollywood; you don't see, for instance, movies from the Spanish-speaking world, in which Americans are depicted as standing around speaking to each other in Spanish with American accents.)

It was very annoying. If they could get the actors to speak Russian and German, they could get them to speak Yiddish, which is spoken and understood by more people than Elvish, Aramaic, or ancient Mayan.

408 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:39:26am
409 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:39:37am

re: #399 Nevergiveup

Our intelligence agencies probably have a pretty good idea where this might be headed and the best way to handle it. I'm content to let them do their work. There are a lot of possibilities, many of them we probably aren't even aware of.

410 DaddyG  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:39:41am

re: #401 DaddyG

psycho9logical blockquote>

I know I didn't type that... must have been a gremlin...

Psychological = PIMF

411 LGoPs  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:39:41am

re: #398 Occasional Reader

So you positively advocate "neutrality" as a position here, and not merely as a tactic.

Noted for the record.

Expressing neutrality in matters of life and death is despicable.

412 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:39:45am

re: #385 DaddyG

Yet Moses spoke with an uncanny American accent. /

See, now THAT I don't mind... you have an American actor, he speaks with an American accent (or English with English accent, etc.), and the share assumption with your audience is "let's pretend".

It's when you make your actor adopt an accent that isn't his, for "authenticity" (e.g., Russell Crowe suddenly becoming English in Gladiator), that things get silly.

413 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:39:47am

re: #405 Nevergiveup

Thanks I will try. Fort Meade is outside DC right?

Yeah, north of DC, south of Bawlmore.

414 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:39:58am

re: #350 Charles

IP is a standard consumer ISP. It was sent through the LGF contact form so I know it was a real human on the other end, not a bot. Fake return address.

So we're talking about the system that had up the lgf site's contact form; the post message would include the IP.
Either the Iranian embassy, someone on their side in the US, or a very long distance dial-up.

415 lawhawk  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:40:35am

re: #383 SpaceJesus

There is neutral rhetoric and then there's rhetoric that supports an evil and illegitimate regime.

The regime admits as much when they note that the election was seriously flawed.

Yet, they'll still hold power and refuse to accede to the demands of their opponents inside Iran.

Obama's failure was to be late to the party - taking days to note that all people have right to free and fair elections, respect of human rights, and if he left it at that, it would have been sufficient IMO.

The problem is that he didn't get to that point until the rest of the world, Iranians included, came to the conclusion that the regime was illegitimate and didn't deserve the benefit of the doubt. Instead of leading, he was following public opinion.

No one was asking Obama to send in the 82nd Airborne or the Marines. They were simply asking for him to make a statement to stand up to Ahmadinejad and the evil regime - to recognize it as such.

He couldn't bring himself to do so. That's a failure of leadership. Even the left recognizes that Obama screwed up by being silent on the subject. That's pretty telling.

416 Nevergiveup  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:40:41am

re: #409 Killgore Trout

Our intelligence agencies probably have a pretty good idea where this might be headed and the best way to handle it. I'm content to let them do their work. There are a lot of possibilities, many of them we probably aren't even aware of.

Well I hope they know more than we do, but recent history does not point in that direction.

417 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:40:44am

re: #407 Alouette

I loved Sean Connery's "Russian" accent in Hunt for Red October.

418 DaddyG  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:40:48am

re: #406 Kenneth

Ah... but there were no "English" during the era of ancient Rome. The Angle-Saxon invasion of Britain was still 5 centuries hence.


I saw I Claudius on Masterpiece theatre. You can't tell me that wasn't a British accent! //

419 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:41:09am

re: #406 Kenneth

Ah... but there were no "English" during the era of ancient Rome. The Angle-Saxon invasion of Britain was still 5 centuries hence.

Um, yeah. That's... kind of my point.

420 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:41:13am
421 Nevergiveup  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:41:25am

re: #413 Mad Al-Jaffee

Yeah, north of DC, south of Bawlmore.

How far from Annapolis, do ya know?

422 DaddyG  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:41:50am

re: #411 LGoPs

Expressing neutrality in matters of life and death is despicable.

Even for the Present of the United States?

423 MacDuff  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:42:14am

re: #383 SpaceJesus

oh heaven forbid someone use neutral rhetoric when wanting to remain neutral in a situation when remaining neutral is the best course of action.

In a struggle between tyranny and liberty, neutrality is simply not an option when you are the POTUS. If Obama feels that it is an option, he's unfit for the office.

Plain enough for ya?

424 wahabicorridor  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:42:14am

re: #408 taxfreekiller

tfk, I've been reading you like forever and that's the most ungarbled thing you've ever written.

425 yma o hyd  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:42:22am

re: #406 Kenneth

Ah... but there were no "English" during the era of ancient Rome. The Angle-Saxon invasion of Britain was still 5 centuries hence.

Heh - if we're really into nit-picking here: the 'English' language came into being after the Norman invasion of 1066 - they spoke Fwench ...

;-)

426 kansas  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:42:46am

What flavor of ice cream is neutral?

427 lawhawk  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:43:04am

re: #409 Killgore Trout

Our intelligence agencies probably have a pretty good idea where this might be headed and the best way to handle it. I'm content to let them do their work. There are a lot of possibilities, many of them we probably aren't even aware of.

You have more faith in the intel agencies than you should given their track record on major world incidents; the Berlin Wall, collapse of Soviet Union, or even the original Iranian revolution in 1979. I doubt that we've got the resources in place to figure out what's going on inside a closed regime that operates in actuality as a totalitarian regime with the commands delivered from Khamenei and Ahmadinejad, who remains in control of the IRGC and Basij.

428 DaddyG  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:43:06am

re: #417 Mad Al-Jaffee

I loved Sean Connery's "Russian" accent in Hunt for Red October.

It gets even better when Alec Baldwin imitates him in the engine room scene.

429 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:43:15am

re: #421 Nevergiveup

How far from Annapolis, do ya know?

Probably about a half hour, maybe more. And I'm pretty sure you can take Rt. 50 directly to Rt. 32.

430 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:43:33am

re: #396 yma o hyd

Scottish - no; Welsh - yes. (We got the roads, see ...)
Oh - and definitely no Irish!

Good argument.
I like the way you Druid out.

/now back to the important stuff

431 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:43:43am

re: #374 doppelganglander

I'm not sure if it would be what you're looking for, but The Puzzle Palace is a classic. When my husband was in the Navy, in an intelligence-related field, all his colleagues read it.

I am going to have to make some decisions here. Dropping $100 on books will require an explanation to my better half.

432 chedgeman  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:43:44am

Dear Mr. President:

The leaders of Iran accused you of meddling in their affairs while you were getting custard and playing golf. How about doing something that really earns their condemnation?

433 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:44:07am

re: #412 Occasional Reader

See, now THAT I don't mind... you have an American actor, he speaks with an American accent (or English with English accent, etc.), and the share assumption with your audience is "let's pretend".

It's when you make your actor adopt an accent that isn't his, for "authenticity" (e.g., Russell Crowe suddenly becoming English in Gladiator), that things get silly.

Or how the Imperials in Star Wars have British accents

434 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:44:09am

re: #418 DaddyG

I saw I Claudius on Masterpiece theatre. You can't tell me that wasn't a British accent! //

To be more "authentic", they should always depict ancient Romans in the movies as speaking English with Italian accents.

"Gaul, she divided into three parts-a... like a big-a pizza pie!"

-Julius Caesar

435 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:44:15am

re: #431 Creeping Eruption

Do you have a library card?

436 Nevergiveup  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:44:15am

re: #429 Mad Al-Jaffee

Probably about a half hour, maybe more. And I'm pretty sure you can take Rt. 50 directly to Rt. 32.

Thanks, I think I'll go when I am in Annapolis for the week.

437 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:44:54am

re: #434 Occasional Reader

To be more "authentic", they should always depict ancient Romans in the movies as speaking English with Italian accents.

"Gaul, she divided into three parts-a... like a big-a pizza pie!"

-Julius Caesar

Bloody Romans!

-members of the People's Front of Judea

438 jcm  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:44:55am

re: #399 Nevergiveup

Gee I am not sure I can agree with you completely or with alot of enthusiasm on that one. I certainly feel for the protesters and their "apparent" desire to be "Free" but I am so uncertain as to who the "protesters" are and where they are heading? I am sure most any "regime change" would probably be good, but I am under no illusions that Iran is going to turn "Democratic" overnight or "Pro-West".

Specific to SJ's neutrality, in context of murder innocents.
The regime is murdering innocents and has for 30 years.

We don't know the final outcome.
What we have now is a murderous regime vs. people seeking consent of the governed.

439 Wendya  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:45:02am

re: #370 Killgore Trout

I did a quick google and the only people who are discussing forgery possibilities seem to be FreeRepublic and co.

You forgot to mention Kos, DU, Huffington post... nearly every site that is discussing this has a couple of people who chime in and claim it's fake.

440 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:45:28am

re: #435 Mad Al-Jaffee

Do you have a library card?

I do, I do, but I am one of those people who likes to buy their books, much to my wifes displeasure. I invariably read them multiple times and just like to have them around.

441 DaddyG  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:45:32am

re: #434 Occasional Reader

To be more "authentic", they should always depict ancient Romans in the movies as speaking English with Italian accents.

"Gaul, she divided into three parts-a... like a big-a pizza pie!"

-Julius Caesar

LOL that is Mel Brooks material!

442 Ziggy Standard  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:45:37am

re: #334 zombie

Save that. I'd be willing to be they sent the email at the behest of the iranian government. They are big into disinformation campaigns right now. They're doing fake Twittering, fake video uploads, etc., all in an effort to drown out the truth with white noise and fake news.

Maybe one day that IP address will be evidence of Iran's government misdeeds.

The sort of thing I'd expect of Paulians too.

443 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:45:37am

re: #373 A.W.

Spacejesus

I understand the logic, but i keep thinking... um, if the protesters don't want our help... why are the signs so often in english?

besides we are going to be accused of meddling either way, so we might as well. in fact if i was president, i would hold up a picture of Neda and speak endlessly. i wouldn't let a sentence go by without mentioning her. then iran wouldn't be able to put up video or audio of me "interfering" without showing her face, or making it very obviously censored.

perhaps this will clarify: the protesters are not enough to effect regime change. you need the majority of iran to do that, the majority which isn't protesting right now.

now we probably are going to be accused of meddling either way, but it makes the propaganda a lot easier to make and a lot easier to believe if you have the president of US doing your job for you on TV, at the UN etc. and what would this accomplish anyway? it has no potential to do good for the movement, only to hurt it. I say err on the side of caution and strategy and remain neutral.

as for the english signs, you do realize that english is understood by people outside the US, yes? english is a way to send a message to the world.

444 CIA Reject  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:45:41am

re: #437 Mad Al-Jaffee

Bloody Romans!

-members of the People's Front of Judea

SPLITTER!

-Judean People's Front

445 wahabicorridor  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:45:49am

re: #409 Killgore Trout

Our intelligence agencies probably have a pretty good idea where this might be heade

If anyone is under the illusion that they have any idea what is going to happen, I definitely don't want them in our intel services.

446 yma o hyd  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:45:55am

re: #412 Occasional Reader

See, now THAT I don't mind... you have an American actor, he speaks with an American accent (or English with English accent, etc.), and the share assumption with your audience is "let's pretend".

It's when you make your actor adopt an accent that isn't his, for "authenticity" (e.g., Russell Crowe suddenly becoming English in Gladiator), that things get silly.

The true pinnacle of silliness (intentional, I hasten to add) was reached in the comic series 'Allo 'Allo, by the Beeb.
It took place in occupied France - the 'French' spoke English with a thick French accent - the GErmans spoke English with a thick German accent - and the English secret agents spoke something utterly indescribable.
It had the nation rolling in the aisles with laughter.

447 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:46:18am

re: #427 lawhawk

You have more faith in the intel agencies than you should given their track record on major world incidents; the Berlin Wall, collapse of Soviet Union, or even the original Iranian revolution in 1979. I doubt that we've got the resources in place to figure out what's going on inside a closed regime that operates in actuality as a totalitarian regime with the commands delivered from Khamenei and Ahmadinejad, who remains in control of the IRGC and Basij.

Don't let those facts get in the way of a good straw man. Obama must have something going on covertly because he refuses to act like the president of the United States and support the protesters.
///

Of course you are right, and anyone who thinks we are pulling strings in Iran using the CIA has not been keeping up with recent history and the lack of effectiveness of the CIA over the last 20 years.

448 Wendya  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:46:20am

re: #404 Abu Lahab

I totally agree, the person just registered a Youtube account with that name to post that message and cast doubt on the video. He is doing that for a purpose, and I'm sure this is a counter-campaign

There are twitter accounts set up specifically to claim it's faked.

449 Nevergiveup  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:46:27am

re: #438 jcm

Specific to SJ's neutrality, in context of murder innocents.
The regime is murdering innocents and has for 30 years.

We don't know the final outcome.
What we have now is a murderous regime vs. people seeking consent of the governed.

OK I'm with ya there, but I just wish I had a handle on where this is going? I hate driving blind.

450 wahabicorridor  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:46:38am

re: #431 Creeping Eruption

I am going to have to make some decisions here. Dropping $100 on books will require an explanation to my better half.

You can buy used books on amazon

451 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:46:48am

re: #402 CIA Reject

Before you go - check this out. LOTS of good stuff there.

Oooohh . . . . .aaaahhhhhh. Like a kid in a candy store. Thanks.

452 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:47:09am

re: #436 Nevergiveup

Thanks, I think I'll go when I am in Annapolis for the week.

You should. It's a very overlooked museum, and admission is free.

I also like the Spy museum in DC. A lot of people criticize it, saying it's Disney-like, but there's some cool stuff there, They also have a lecture series with former intelligence personnel.

453 hazzyday  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:47:13am

Pres Obama afraid to make words and afraid of the actions that follow words. The silent President.

454 opnion  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:47:44am

re: #323 Nevergiveup

It looked pretty authentic to me, but we should remember that the claim that the Iraqis threw Kuwaiti babies out of the incubators was apparently not true.

The allegation about the Kuwati babies was by a member of the al Sabbah family. She claimed to witness it as a nurse at the hospital. Apparently, she was not even in Kuwait at the time.

455 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:47:46am

re: #450 wahabicorridor

You can buy used books on amazon

That is typically what I do.

456 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:47:54am

re: #434 Occasional Reader

To be more "authentic", they should always depict ancient Romans in the movies as speaking English with Italian accents.

"Gaul, she divided into three parts-a... like a big-a pizza pie!"

-Julius Caesar

"Et tu, Brute?! Now 'at's a spicy meat-ball-a!"

-Caesar [expires]

"Leave the daggers; take the cannoli."

-Brutus

457 CIA Reject  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:48:06am

re: #451 Creeping Eruption

Oooohh . . . . .aaaahhhhhh. Like a kid in a candy store. Thanks.

My pleasure ...

458 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:48:14am

re: #435 Mad Al-Jaffee

Do you have a library card?

I don't remember who above was saying that the book "A Year in Treblinka" is out of print (I got a copy 5 years ago), but, here it is online...

[Link: www.zchor.org...]

459 Dianna  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:48:18am

re: #399 Nevergiveup

Gee I am not sure I can agree with you completely or with alot of enthusiasm on that one. I certainly feel for the protesters and their "apparent" desire to be "Free" but I am so uncertain as to who the "protesters" are and where they are heading? I am sure most any "regime change" would probably be good, but I am under no illusions that Iran is going to turn "Democratic" overnight or "Pro-West".

There is no way of being certain where this goes. There are people in the street, and no one knows where this will end up. Not even they.

460 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:49:07am

re: #415 lawhawk

No one was asking Obama to send in the 82nd Airborne or the Marines. They were simply asking for him to make a statement to stand up to Ahmadinejad and the evil regime - to recognize it as such.

He couldn't bring himself to do so. That's a failure of leadership. Even the left recognizes that Obama screwed up by being silent on the subject. That's pretty telling.


false. you want obama to be seen by the Iranian population as siding with the protestors. that would isolate the protestors within Iran and doom the movement. obama is doing the smart thing here.

461 wahabicorridor  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:49:30am

re: #458 Walter L. Newton

I don't remember who above was saying that the book "A Year in Treblinka" is out of print (I got a copy 5 years ago), but, here it is online...

[Link: www.zchor.org...]

that was me and I LOVE YOU!

462 yma o hyd  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:49:45am

re: #455 Creeping Eruption

That is typically what I do.

It is a godsend to all of us who suffer from book addiction ...

(Now if someone were to offer free, nice bookshelves and room where to put them up, I'd be a happy bunny!)

463 Nevergiveup  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:49:51am

re: #454 opnion

The allegation about the Kuwati babies was by a member of the al Sabbah family. She claimed to witness it as a nurse at the hospital. Apparently, she was not even in Kuwait at the time.

Yeah, I remember, but the media fell for that one hook line and sinker. She should get a agent and go to Hollywood.

464 doppelganglander  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:50:16am

re: #452 Mad Al-Jaffee

You should. It's a very overlooked museum, and admission is free.

I also like the Spy museum in DC. A lot of people criticize it, saying it's Disney-like, but there's some cool stuff there, They also have a lecture series with former intelligence personnel.

I love the Spy Museum - I've been twice. My son is stationed at Fort Meade and has promised to take me to the cryptology museum next time I'm up there.

465 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:50:49am

re: #444 CIA Reject

SPLITTER!

-Judean People's Front

What's this, then? "Romanes eunt domus"? People called Romanes, they go, the house?

466 jcm  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:50:58am

re: #449 Nevergiveup

OK I'm with ya there, but I just wish I had a handle on where this is going? I hate driving blind.



There's No False Choice on Iran
The consequence of a weak president.
by Fred Barnes

467 doppelganglander  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:51:05am

re: #455 Creeping Eruption

That is typically what I do.

Also, try Alibris. I get a lot of stuff there at excellent prices.

468 avanti  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:51:12am

re: #394 capitalist piglet

Maybe it's just me, or maybe I'm getting you wrong (again), avanti - but it would make me sick if he used her as you suggest. He wouldn't cross the fucking (yes, piglet said "fucking") street for this woman, but I don't doubt he would use her as an illustration in one of his bullshit speeches.

Just words. Just speeches. Just Obama.

No thanks.

I know the ODS is strong, but you have no reason to think he's the heartless cretin you make him out to be. I suspect he's as upset about the video as any other American would be.
I can't argue about what's in the man's heart, but just because you disagree with his politics does not mean he does not have one. Those kinds of comments about Bush pissed me off too, I disagreed with the man's policies, but he was class act, and loved his country.

469 Wendya  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:51:43am

re: #460 SpaceJesus

false. you want obama to be seen by the Iranian population as siding with the protestors. that would isolate the protestors within Iran and doom the movement. obama is doing the smart thing here.

In case you haven't been paying attention, The Iranian "leadership" was claiming interference by Obama when he was steering clear of the issue by claiming there wasn't much difference between the two candidates.

If you're going to get blamed no matter what, where's the harm in standing with people being gunned down in the streets?

470 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:52:06am

re: #464 doppelganglander

I love the Spy Museum - I've been twice. My son is stationed at Fort Meade and has promised to take me to the cryptology museum next time I'm up there.

The Museum of Crime and Punishment (very close to the Spy Museum) is kind of goofy, but worth visting once.

471 capitalist piglet  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:52:11am

re: #460 SpaceJesus

false. you want obama to be seen by the Iranian population as siding with the protestors. that would isolate the protestors within Iran and doom the movement. obama is doing the smart thing here.

Why of course. No matter what he does, it's "the smart thing". Hanging people who are crying out for freedom and being executed in the street out to dry is just so...smart.

Otherwise, you know, bad stuff could happen.

/

472 Nevergiveup  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:52:46am

re: #466 jcm


There's No False Choice on Iran
The consequence of a weak president.
by Fred Barnes

I'm coming around to that way of thinking, just not jumping up and down happy. I still have this strange feeling in the pit of my stomach telling me to be careful.

473 wahabicorridor  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:53:00am

gotta go

Walter, thanks again for the link!

474 doppelganglander  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:53:32am

re: #470 Mad Al-Jaffee

The Museum of Crime and Punishment (very close to the Spy Museum) is kind of goofy, but worth visting once.

That's also on my list. I have a rather unhealthy interest in crime, forensics and the like. Now that I have two kids in the D.C. area, I'll have plenty of excuses to go up and hit as many museums as possible (basically my favorite thing to do).

475 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:53:35am

re: #452 Mad Al-Jaffee

You should. It's a very overlooked museum, and admission is free.

I also like the Spy museum in DC. A lot of people criticize it, saying it's Disney-like, but there's some cool stuff there, They also have a lecture series with former intelligence personnel.

I spent hours there the last time I was in D.C. Too cool. Picked up a couple of great books there as well.

476 CIA Reject  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:53:45am

re: #465 Mad Al-Jaffee

What's this, then? "Romanes eunt domus"? People called Romanes, they go, the house?

Dative?....

At which point my friends and myself, all fresh from the horrors of four years of Latin, fell over screaming in laughter in the theater, much to the bewilderment of the rest of the audience...

477 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:53:49am

sending a strong condemnation of ahmahdinejad and strong support of the protestors has no potential to help the movement. it can have absolutely no potential net positive effect in a nation that has a deep mistrust of the US for very good reasons. it only has the potential to harm the movement.

when something only has the potential to do harm without good, don't do it.

478 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:54:22am

re: #469 Wendya

In case you haven't been paying attention, The Iranian "leadership" was claiming interference by Obama when he was steering clear of the issue by claiming there wasn't much difference between the two candidates.

If you're going to get blamed no matter what, where's the harm in standing with people being gunned down in the streets?


i already answered this one way up there.

479 A.W.  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:54:27am

re: #443 SpaceJesus

perhaps this will clarify: the protesters are not enough to effect regime change. you need the majority of iran to do that, the majority which isn't protesting right now.

now we probably are going to be accused of meddling either way, but it makes the propaganda a lot easier to make and a lot easier to believe if you have the president of US doing your job for you on TV, at the UN etc. and what would this accomplish anyway? it has no potential to do good for the movement, only to hurt it. I say err on the side of caution and strategy and remain neutral.

as for the english signs, you do realize that english is understood by people outside the US, yes? english is a way to send a message to the world.

oh for the love of god, what revolution EVER had a majority in the streets?

as for the language, more muslims understand arabic than english, so why not arabic? more actual people understand spanish and chinese, so why not those languages?

the people getting their heads cracked WANT us involved. i take their opinion over some wag half a world away, any day.

480 American Sabra  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:54:44am

If anyone thinks that he Mullahs and Amendineajad are going to let anyone upsurp their power, you got another thing coming. They didn't rig an election to have it taken away from them. They will kill and torture whomever they have to shut them up. And quite frankly, I don't know what we or anyone else can do about it except offer them asylum or provide them weapons.

481 avanti  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:55:05am

re: #403 Walter L. Newton

Just projecting. This is the way a lot of liberals would use a dead person to their advantage, yet not accomplish anything. Look at Corey?

Yea, that's what a lot of liberals do, we use dead folk to our advantage, WTF Walter ?

482 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:55:55am

re: #477 SpaceJesus

sending a strong condemnation of ahmahdinejad and strong support of the protestors has no potential to help the movement. it can have absolutely no potential net positive effect in a nation that has a deep mistrust of the US for very good reasons. it only has the potential to harm the movement.

Such as?

483 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:56:19am

re: #471 capitalist piglet

Why of course. No matter what he does, it's "the smart thing". Hanging people who are crying out for freedom and being executed in the street out to dry is just so...smart.

Otherwise, you know, bad stuff could happen.

/

and making the sacrifice of those hanged people moot by attaching your face to the their actions is so much smarter. might as well go around slapping american flag stickers to the backs of all the protesters then see how well that goes over.

484 Wendya  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:58:02am

re: #478 SpaceJesus

i already answered this one way up there.


Not really. My question stands.

485 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 11:58:55am

re: #474 doppelganglander

I can recommend some good places to eat in that area. I work about ten minutes away, and my gym is right in the middle of Chinatown (or "Chinablock," as the locals call it.)

486 avanti  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:00:17pm

re: #421 Nevergiveup

How far from Annapolis, do ya know?

About 25 minutes away from me in Annapolis.

487 capitalist piglet  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:00:32pm

re: #468 avanti

I know the ODS is strong, but you have no reason to think he's the heartless cretin you make him out to be. I suspect he's as upset about the video as any other American would be.
I can't argue about what's in the man's heart, but just because you disagree with his politics does not mean he does not have one. Those kinds of comments about Bush pissed me off too, I disagreed with the man's policies, but he was class act, and loved his country.

Oh yes, I have ODS, because the thought of him using a dead woman as flashy rhetoric to advance his campaign as The World's Greatest Orator™ annoys me.

I should like that. Because you do. If I don't, I have "ODS"...I'm "deranged".

She had bigger stones than the President of the United States, just standing there. I am ashamed of that fact, avanti. It is not hatred. It is SHAME.

488 Ziggy Standard  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:00:33pm

Analysis: Iran splits widen

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]


...For the last 30 years years Iran's top leaders have disagreed with each other many times, but they have never taken their quarrels to the people like this.

Their stake in the survival of the system as it stood outweighed any advantage they might have hoped for by going public.

Mr Mousavi was a protege of late Ayatollah Khomeini, who led the revolution against the Shah, and is therefore a consummate insider.

But now he is publicly breaking with Khomeini's successor, Ayatollah Khamenei. It looks as if there is now no going back for either of them.

489 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:02:16pm

re: #482 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Such as?


imagine this for a second.

you are an indifferent iranian who just saw the pictures of the girl who was shot on your TV. you're thinking about siding with the protesters now. but wait, the next thing you see is the american president supporting the protesters during a news broadcast on the next channel. america? you remember america. you remember the america that supplied saddam hussein with nerve gas to use in his offensive war against your country. you remember how that gas crippled your sonfatherbrotherneighbor. or maybe you're an older iranian, and you remember how the us has tried in the past to put strongmen in power in your country like during operation ajax. where are you gonna stand now? probably just stay at home now, or even go against the protesters even.

the US has done some incredibly stupid foreign policy things that have adversely affected iran, and many iranians remember these things very well.

490 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:02:19pm
491 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:03:01pm

why can't you use slashes in posts...

492 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:05:13pm

re: #468 avanti

I know the ODS is strong, but you have no reason to think he's the heartless cretin you make him out to be. I suspect he's as upset about the video as any other American would be.
I can't argue about what's in the man's heart, but just because you disagree with his politics does not mean he does not have one. Those kinds of comments about Bush pissed me off too, I disagreed with the man's policies, but he was class act, and loved his country.

He shows more sympathy towards "Palestinian" terrorists than towards their Israeli victims.

493 capitalist piglet  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:06:46pm

re: #481 avanti

Yea, that's what a lot of liberals do, we use dead folk to our advantage, WTF Walter ?

"WTF" indeed.

You just advocated using "dead folk" in a "great speech". You can't blame Walter for thinking that's what you do when you just did it.

494 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:06:54pm

re: #484 Wendya

Not really. My question stands.

well then you must be illiterate.

it's one thing to have the regime throwing out baseless accusations that america is supporting the protesters. it's quite another thing when america goes live to your living room and confirms it.

it's the difference between hearing a rumor about a girl being shot, and actually seeing the video of her last moments yourself.

495 hans ze beeman  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:08:08pm

As far as I have read, YouTube has closed down the official video of this dramatic incident. they appear to be pretty reliable in being on the wrong side.

496 [deleted]  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:08:32pm
497 avanti  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:10:11pm

re: #493 capitalist piglet

"WTF" indeed.

You just advocated using "dead folk" in a "great speech". You can't blame Walter for thinking that's what you do when you just did it.

Man did you twist that. I suggested that using the girls death in a speech might help Iranians in their struggle. I did not suggest using her to get a bump in BHO's poll numbers.

498 debutaunt  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:11:39pm

re: #491 SpaceJesus

why can't you use slashes in posts...

I appreciate the way you don't waste all the capital letters here.

499 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:11:46pm

re: #496 Iron Fist

I imagine some really incredibly stupid not bombing of Iran in, oh, 1979. With the proper action in 1979, we wouldn't even being having this thing today, as we would have removed the Islamofascists in their infancy. It is always cheaper to take out fascists early. We have yet to learn that lesson, even today.

i'll let you read up on mohammad reza pahlavi, then you can get back to me on that.

500 Rancher  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:14:30pm

re: #270 wahabicorridor
Great story, thanks. So basically the President failed to support the human rights of the Jews for fear of how the enemy might exploit such support. Sounds familiar.

501 haakondahl  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:18:49pm

re: #489 SpaceJesus

imagine this for a second.

you are an indifferent iranian who just saw the pictures of the girl who was shot on your TV. you're thinking about siding with the protesters now. but wait, the next thing you see is the american president supporting the protesters

New game. You are confusing the "undecideds" who will support the protest/revolution based on their recollection of regime abuses, not American idiocy, with the soft end of the "Death to America" crowd who will decide more on expedience than facts.

502 MacDuff  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:22:54pm

re: #489 SpaceJesus

imagine this for a second.

you are an indifferent iranian who just saw the pictures of the girl who was shot on your TV. you're thinking about siding with the protesters now. but wait, the next thing you see is the american president supporting the protesters during a news broadcast on the next channel. america? you remember america. you remember the america that supplied saddam hussein with nerve gas to use in his offensive war against your country. you remember how that gas crippled your sonfatherbrotherneighbor. or maybe you're an older iranian, and you remember how the us has tried in the past to put strongmen in power in your country like during operation ajax. where are you gonna stand now? probably just stay at home now, or even go against the protesters even.

the US has done some incredibly stupid foreign policy things that have adversely affected iran, and many iranians remember these things very well.

OK, Lets imagine......

Imagine you are a young Iranian risking your life for freedom, and the American President ignores you, though you have been living under the heel of an oppressive regime your entire life.

On the other hand, imagine you are that same young Iranian, and the American President publically, and forcefully speaks on behalf of your efforts and against the oppressive regime under which you have lived.

I think you are too enamored with our mistakes of the past (much like our President) to do the right thing in the present and maybe, just maybe create a brighter future. You assume that the majority of Iranian people hate us and I submit that is an invalid assumption.

I think that, at this point, the Iranians would welcome any moral support they could get.

503 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:24:03pm

re: #501 haakondahl

New game. You are confusing the "undecideds" who will support the protest/revolution based on their recollection of regime abuses, not American idiocy, with the soft end of the "Death to America" crowd who will decide more on expedience than facts.


people who are opposed to american interference in iran for historical reasons span pretty much every demographic.

504 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:26:03pm

re: #489 SpaceJesus

you remember america. you remember the america that supplied saddam hussein with nerve gas to use in his offensive war against your country

BULL. SHIT.

Another stupid lefty trope. Please check your facts before you post this nonsense. (Perhaps now you'll tell us how American "armed Saddam!" with T-72 tanks and MiG-29 fighter jets, made in Missouri.)

505 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:27:24pm

re: #502 MacDuff

OK, Lets imagine......

Imagine you are a young Iranian risking your life for freedom, and the American President ignores you, though you have been living under the heel of an oppressive regime your entire life.

On the other hand, imagine you are that same young Iranian, and the American President publically, and forcefully speaks on behalf of your efforts and against the oppressive regime under which you have lived.

ok, let's say i fall into that tiny, nonexistent group of iranians who like what america has done to my country in the past, and that I also happen to be a protester. what do I do? split in half? create more people like myself out of thin air?

we're talking about increasing protester numbers here, getting millions more behind the movement, which is what your suggestion would not accomplish. this hasn't reached the point where its a revolution yet, but if we stay out of it, it might have a chance.

506 capitalist piglet  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:27:31pm

re: #497 avanti

Man did you twist that. I suggested that using the girls death in a speech might help Iranians in their struggle. I did not suggest using her to get a bump in BHO's poll numbers.


Uh huh.

You suggested using her in a "great speech" not taking sides. That is sure to "help Iranians in their struggle". Which Iranians, we must decline to say.

Yes, what a "great speech" that would be. Swoon.

507 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:27:47pm

re: #504 Occasional Reader

American = America (I'm Joe Typo today.)

508 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:30:02pm

re: #506 capitalist piglet

You suggested using her in a "great speech" not taking sides.

"Some believe that Neda died in the cause of freedom. Others, that she was a Zionist stooge who got what was coming to her. Who can say for sure? I'm not here to meddle. But the important thing is this: I'm still offering my outstretched hand in friendship, and my radiant smile, and my thougtfully furrowed brow, to whoever wins."

509 Wendya  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:30:03pm

re: #494 SpaceJesus

well then you must be illiterate.

it's one thing to have the regime throwing out baseless accusations that america is supporting the protesters. it's quite another thing when america goes live to your living room and confirms it.

it's the difference between hearing a rumor about a girl being shot, and actually seeing the video of her last moments yourself.

My question, Mr Literate, was: If you're going to get blamed no matter what, where's the harm in standing with people being gunned down in the streets?

510 MacDuff  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:31:09pm

re: #503 SpaceJesus

people who are opposed to american interference in iran for historical reasons span pretty much every demographic.

You're right, Barack Obama, Pat Buchanan and Ron Paul. The Triad of reasonable foreign policy! /

511 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:34:00pm

re: #510 MacDuff

You're right, Barack Obama, Pat Buchanan and Ron Paul. The Triad of reasonable foreign policy! /

Heh. Reminds me of that t.v. ad where they had BOTH Pat Robertson AND Al Sharpton trying to convince me of the threat of Man-Made Global Warming. Pretty much the surest way to convince me NOT to buy something.

512 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:35:37pm

re: #504 Occasional Reader

BULL. SHIT.

Another stupid lefty trope. Please check your facts before you post this nonsense. (Perhaps now you'll tell us how American "armed Saddam!" with T-72 tanks and MiG-29 fighter jets, made in Missouri.)


why don't you read some history on the iran-iraq war before telling me about facts please.

513 haakondahl  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:36:11pm

re: #508 Occasional Reader

"Some believe that Neda died in the cause of freedom. Others, that she was a Zionist stooge who got what was coming to her. Who can say for sure? I'm not here to meddle. But the important thing is this: I'm still offering my outstretched hand in friendship, and my radiant smile, and my thougtfully furrowed brow, to whoever wins."

"No need to fight, Boys".

514 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:37:23pm

re: #132 doppelganglander

Sarkozy: France 'Cannot Accept' Burqas


Think about that. The first time the president of France has addressed parliament in 136 years, and this is the topic he picks. I agree with him completely about the perniciousness of the burqa, and I hope France bans it, which would be consistent with their constitution, AFAIK. Of course that would be impossible in the U.S., but it's not as big of a problem here. I hope the custom dies out here of its own accord.

I can't agree. What a woman wears is her business, not that of government.

515 Hawaii69  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:38:19pm

re: #74 debutaunt

It has been suggested that they were plainclothes thugs who were aiding in her murder.


Suggested by someone without a clue, apparently. One of those people in the frame is her father.

516 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:38:28pm

re: #509 Wendya

My question, Mr Literate, was: If you're going to get blamed no matter what, where's the harm in standing with people being gunned down in the streets?


good god, can you not read? what part of "YOU'RE GONNA MAKE THE PROTESTERS LOOK BAD BY CONFIRMING STATE PROPAGANDA" don't you understand? holy shit. I really can't say it any more straight-forward than that.

517 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:38:29pm

re: #512 SpaceJesus

why don't you read some history on the iran-iraq war before telling me about facts please.

I have, thanks much. The U.S. did not sell nerve gas to Iraq. That's simply a lie that has been thoroughly debunked. The U.S. never exported nerve gas to ANY country, not even allies, much less Iraq.

518 MacDuff  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:40:45pm

re: #505 SpaceJesus

ok, let's say i fall into that tiny, nonexistent group of iranians who like what america has done to my country in the past, and that I also happen to be a protester. what do I do? split in half? create more people like myself out of thin air?

we're talking about increasing protester numbers here, getting millions more behind the movement, which is what your suggestion would not accomplish. this hasn't reached the point where its a revolution yet, but if we stay out of it, it might have a chance.

What if you were one of the millions who have lived what the Iranian government has done to your country for 30 years? What if your son/father/sister/mother was one of the people slaughtered by Iranian tyranny?

519 A.W.  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:42:10pm

re: #514 SanFranciscoZionist

I can't agree. What a woman wears is her business, not that of government.

Well, first alot of women who wear burqas do so out of fear of private reprisals.

Second, aren't there alot of laws against generally going around with masks on, based on what a few white hooded terrorists used to do. i think that if you are in public, we should see your face unobstructed, so that if you commit a crime, we can identify you. i see it as exactly the same issue as licence plates on cars; we have the rule so no one can get away with anything too easily.

520 Hawaii69  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:46:04pm

re: #469 Wendya

If you're going to get blamed no matter what, where's the harm in standing with people being gunned down in the streets?


....and where's the good in it? other than feeligood self satisfaction?

It would do nothing to help the situation, which is far more complex split amongst iranians than it has been made out to be here.

521 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:46:36pm

re: #517 Occasional Reader

I have, thanks much. The U.S. did not sell nerve gas to Iraq. That's simply a lie that has been thoroughly debunked. The U.S. never exported nerve gas to ANY country, not even allies, much less Iraq.

oh ok, my bad. it was just an unspecified quantity and quality of chemical weapons.

"On May 25 1994, the U.S. Senate Banking Committee released a report in which it was stated that "pathogenic (meaning 'disease producing'), toxigenic (meaning 'poisonous'), and other biological research materials were exported to Iraq pursuant to application and licensing by the U.S. Department of Commerce." It added: 'These exported biological materials were not attenuated or weakened and were capable of reproduction.' "

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

522 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:48:03pm

re: #518 MacDuff

What if you were one of the millions who have lived what the Iranian government has done to your country for 30 years? What if your son/father/sister/mother was one of the people slaughtered by Iranian tyranny?

those people are already out in the streets right now. im talking about winning over the other people.

please. tell me. i'm here to help. how much simpler can i make this?

523 haakondahl  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:49:48pm

re: #516 SpaceJesus

good god, can you not read? what part of "YOU'RE GONNA MAKE THE PROTESTERS LOOK BAD BY CONFIRMING STATE PROPAGANDA" don't you understand? holy shit. I really can't say it any more straight-forward than that.

Then put a cork in it. We cannot win if we try to second-guess and out-nuance a dictatorial regime with control of the media. Anywhere. Straight talk is not only the honorable thing to do; it's the only one which isn't a guaranteed loser.
Democrats like making things complicated--it justifies all that education in overcomplicating simple things. Stop de-constructing Iran. Support the good guys. If the bad guys win, fuck them.

524 Syrah  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:50:42pm

re: #8 A.W.

No need to be rude.

525 Wendya  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:50:59pm

re: #516 SpaceJesus

good god, can you not read? what part of "YOU'RE GONNA MAKE THE PROTESTERS LOOK BAD BY CONFIRMING STATE PROPAGANDA" don't you understand? holy shit. I really can't say it any more straight-forward than that.

Stop frothing at the mouth before you give yourself a stroke.

Are you really suggesting that denouncing the murder of protesters is "confirming state propaganda"? Denouncing the systematic violence towards protesters is "proof" that the "Great Satan" is organizing the events in Iran?

Get A Grip.

526 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:52:01pm

re: #521 SpaceJesus

oh ok, my bad. it was just an unspecified quantity and quality of chemical weapons.

"On May 25 1994, the U.S. Senate Banking Committee released a report in which it was stated that "pathogenic (meaning 'disease producing'), toxigenic (meaning 'poisonous'), and other biological research materials were exported to Iraq pursuant to application and licensing by the U.S. Department of Commerce." It added: 'These exported biological materials were not attenuated or weakened and were capable of reproduction.' "

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

[emphasis mine]

Do you actually know what the terms "nerve gas" and "chemical weapons" refer to?

Yes, that terrifying arms dealer, the U.S. Department of Agriculture, shipped disease cultures to Iraq, just as they do to many countries... which are supposd to be used in research against those diseases.

Yes, Saddam, in his merry way, tried to use those for biological warfare agents.

Which are not the same thing as chemical weapons.

Chemical weapons are what were used against Iran. Biological agents were not.

You're simply advertising your ignorance at this point. I'm actually embarassed for you.

527 Wendya  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:52:46pm

re: #520 Hawaii69

....and where's the good in it? other than feeligood self satisfaction?

It would do nothing to help the situation, which is far more complex split amongst iranians than it has been made out to be here.

Do nothing? When the leader of the free world is silent about people being beaten, arrested and murdered for protesting the results of an election, it says a whole fucking lot about that leader and his country.

528 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:52:51pm

re: #526 Occasional Reader

Yes, that terrifying arms dealer, the U.S. Department of AgricultureCommerce

[pimf]

529 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:53:46pm

re: #523 haakondahl

Then put a cork in it. We cannot win if we try to second-guess and out-nuance a dictatorial regime with control of the media. Anywhere. Straight talk is not only the honorable thing to do; it's the only one which isn't a guaranteed loser.
Democrats like making things complicated--it justifies all that education in overcomplicating simple things. Stop de-constructing Iran. Support the good guys. If the bad guys win, fuck them.


or we can keep our nose off of it, hope it grows into a full-blown revolution and then go from there. they're not gonna be canada or sweden any time soon even if they do win the streets...but hey, baby steps.

530 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:57:36pm

re: #526 Occasional Reader

[emphasis mine]

Do you actually know what the terms "nerve gas" and "chemical weapons" refer to?

Yes, that terrifying arms dealer, the U.S. Department of Agriculture, shipped disease cultures to Iraq, just as they do to many countries... which are supposd to be used in research against those diseases.

Yes, Saddam, in his merry way, tried to use those for biological warfare agents.

Which are not the same thing as chemical weapons.

Chemical weapons are what were used against Iran. Biological agents were not.

You're simply advertising your ignorance at this point. I'm actually embarassed for you.

dept. of agriculture? where you see that one? i didnt mention the ag department at all. ?

why don't you go over to wikipedia and read this fun little article about it

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

531 Cato  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:58:45pm

I think the anti-idiotarian award should be called the "Neda" this year.

532 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 12:59:12pm

re: #527 Wendya

Do nothing? When the leader of the free world is silent about people being beaten, arrested and murdered for protesting the results of an election, it says a whole fucking lot about that leader and his country.

too bad the us isn't seen as the leader of the free world in many parts of the world where we have installed repressive dictatorships in the past.

533 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 1:04:10pm

re: #530 SpaceJesus

dept. of agriculture? where you see that one? i didnt mention the ag department at all. ?

why don't you go over to wikipedia and read this fun little article about it

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Already corrected the "Agriculture" reference above. And yes, I read the article, and yes, I've read others. They reinforce my point. Biological samples were sold to Iraq, as is the case to many countries, FOR RESEARCH (unless you think the CDC is a sekrit armes deeler!). From this, you derive your sloppy "US sold nerve gas to Iraq!" knee-jerk talking point. Oh, and then the best part... after recycling this America-bashing lie, you pretend to be oh-so-terribly concerned about America's image abroad.

534 A.W.  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 1:06:27pm

re: #530 SpaceJesus

dept. of agriculture? where you see that one? i didnt mention the ag department at all. ?

why don't you go over to wikipedia and read this fun little article about it

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Jesus H. Christ. you get your info from wikipedia?

535 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 1:13:16pm

re: #533 Occasional Reader

Already corrected the "Agriculture" reference above. And yes, I read the article, and yes, I've read others. They reinforce my point. Biological samples were sold to Iraq, as is the case to many countries, FOR RESEARCH (unless you think the CDC is a sekrit armes deeler!). From this, you derive your sloppy "US sold nerve gas to Iraq!" knee-jerk talking point. Oh, and then the best part... after recycling this America-bashing lie, you pretend to be oh-so-terribly concerned about America's image abroad.

oh, the chemical weapons were sent purely for research. oh ok. how come we just happened to be sending them to iraq during war time? during a war we supported them in? and if it was only meant for research, how come we were the only country that didn't condemn iraq for using it during the war? against civilians no less? how come reagan said we needed to give iraq anything they needed to win against iran at all odds?

yeah, we totally were just giving them these things for them to play with in a lab.

536 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 1:14:24pm

re: #534 A.W.

Jesus H. Christ. you get your info from wikipedia?


sometimes on the net? yep. you want articles? i'll get some from my university if you want, but I'm at work right now.

537 haakondahl  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 1:14:37pm

re: #529 SpaceJesus

Ah. You jump from one justification to another, or simply jump to your conclusion, which is really your starting point. I thought you were arguing. You're just shilling for Obama, curve-fitting, rationalizing.
Don't bother responding.

538 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 1:16:51pm

re: #535 SpaceJesus

oh, the chemical weapons were sent purely for research

Wow. You STILL haven't even bothered to look up the term "chemical weapon". Amazing.

539 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 1:18:00pm

re: #533 Occasional Reader

Oh, and then the best part... after recycling this America-bashing lie, you pretend to be oh-so-terribly concerned about America's image abroad.


america gives iraq chemical weapons in a war they started against iran. iraq uses said chemicals weapons against iranians. iranians find out who gave iraq the weapons. iranians mad. mad at us.

sorry if this bothers you, but a real patriot confronts and seeks to correct the sins of his country, not just deny them or excuse them with bullshit.

540 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 1:19:03pm

re: #222 Rancher

We talk about the muted support coming from Obama but where is the support from Muslims around the world? Had this woman been shot by Zionists or an American Marine the "street" would be out in the millions protesting. Mullahs can do no wrong.

I hate to say it, but there's a large enough element who'd think she should die for showing her face, or wearing jeans, or just not being a proper woman. For all that Obama has or hasn't done, Neda's murder will severely limit the options of the various governments, and up until now, I've been willing to accept that patience and a calm response was the best course, but now that is going to have to change:

1) Neda's murder is a slap in the face of everything that America stands for. Obama can't work with a group of people who've done that dozens and hundreds of times and still maintain a legitimacy with the US Population.

2) The evidence of fraud is now absolute, with Iran's Guardian Council admitting that 50 districts had over 100% over participation. Their efforts to use the chestnut that somehow there was a little fraud but it couldn't be 11 million simply insults the intelligence of anyone who is following the Iranian situation.

3) There are reports that a number of Students at Tehran University were blinded by the Basij and the Anti-Riot thugs during their assault on Tehran University. They took their riot batons and would go and jam the stick into the eye socket of people as they went from room to room.

4) There are also reports that helicopters are dropping some sort of anti-personel liquid, be it a tear gas or acid, from helicopters onto the protesters. There may not be a war going on (yet) but I suspect the Iranian thugs are treading into war crime territory, if they haven't explicitly crossed that line already.

The problem isn't the US, the problem is Russia and to a lesser extent China. Russia because they've already recognized the election and are standing 100% behind the coup. China, because China, well, who knows anymore, maybe the want the protests to fail, so they'll worry less about their own issues. Or maybe they simply need the oil. Either way, getting those two countries on board is the only realistic way to accomplish anything significant at this time.

Now, if there's an open rebellion with open warfare, then the US can give more overt aid, until then though, we need to make sure that the thugs who are behind this, get no support, no aid, nothing but scorn and the best efforts to undermine the evil behind the Coup.

541 Land Shark  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 1:19:21pm

America being the leader of the Free World and supporting freedom around the world, that's soooooo last year.

542 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 1:19:39pm

re: #538 Occasional Reader

Wow. You STILL haven't even bothered to look up the term "chemical weapon". Amazing.


oh ok, so we sold iraq strains of chemical weapons, the means to make them in great quantities and even trained them how to make them themselves in iraq so it would be easier than constantly shipping them in via planes. ok. world of difference.

543 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 1:21:26pm

re: #540 bloodstar

and I wasn't trying to imply I thought the people who think that Neda deserved to die were right, just pointing out that for a large segment of the Muslim population in the middle east, they've believed that women should die for less in the past, so I don't expect much from them in all honesty.

544 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 1:21:46pm

re: #362 doppelganglander

It's a known fact that the ancient Romans all spoke with a British accent.

So do Darth Vader's henchmen.

545 A.W.  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 1:22:19pm

re: #536 SpaceJesus

sometimes on the net? yep. you want articles? i'll get some from my university if you want, but I'm at work right now.

Only an idiot trusts wikipedia, at least on any controversial subject. they can be depended usually on the history of pac-man but not on anything like this.

546 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 1:23:04pm

re: #542 SpaceJesus

so we sold iraq strains of chemical weapons

LOL... really, I give up. You're just too willfully obtuse here to attempt to educate any more. "Strains of chemical weapons"... that's just wonderful, I love it.

Please, go on! Talk about the T-72 tanks we made for Saddam, too!

547 A.W.  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 1:23:25pm

re: #544 SanFranciscoZionist

So do Darth Vader's henchmen.

So does every human on Stargate, even if they have been out of contact with us since before english was a language.

548 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 1:29:26pm

re: #546 Occasional Reader

LOL... really, I give up. You're just too willfully obtuse here to attempt to educate any more. "Strains of chemical weapons"... that's just wonderful, I love it.

Please, go on! Talk about the T-72 tanks we made for Saddam, too!

typo, whatever. just like your fuck up with the deptartment of agriculture, but unlike you, at least i'm in the ballpark. they sent them traces of chemical weapons. they did however, send 'strains' of anthrax.

549 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 1:32:08pm

re: #546 Occasional Reader

LOL... really, I give up. You're just too willfully obtuse here to attempt to educate any more. "Strains of chemical weapons"... that's just wonderful, I love it.

Please, go on! Talk about the T-72 tanks we made for Saddam, too!

besides, you're just grasping at straws now. my point is proven by the article.

iraq's use of chemical warfare against iran was directly due to the US's supplying of iraq.

550 Hawaii69  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 1:38:43pm

re: #527 Wendya

He hasn't been silent.

He just hasn't said what you'd like him to say.

Whatever he says is irrelevant to the situation on the
ground in Iran. Voicing vehement support for the protesters would do them more harm than good.

This isn't Eastern Europe in 1990. These protests are
anti-ahmadinejad, anti military dictatorship. It's a battle between establishment factions that has been oversimplified in the West as a secular fight for "freedom". Mousavi's supporters are not trying to scrap the Iranian Revolution. They're trying to reform it.

551 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 1:41:02pm

re: #549 SpaceJesus

besides, you're just grasping at straws now. my point is proven by the article.

iraq's use of chemical warfare against iran was directly due to the US's supplying of iraq.

One last time.

I'll type slowly, so maybe you can understand.

Saddam used CHEMICAL WEAPONS against Iran; blister agents (think "mustard gas"), and sarin.

These weapons are made from - as their name implies - CHEMICALS.

Yes, strains of things like anthrax bacillus were sold by the US to Iraq. BIOLOGICAL agnents. Bad idea.

But that's not was used against Iran.

So, your original talking point here (Iran angry at US for selling Saddam "nerve gas") evaporates.

See?

552 Hawaii69  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 1:43:21pm

re: #549 SpaceJesus

besides, you're just grasping at straws now. my point is proven by the article.

iraq's use of chemical warfare against iran was directly due to the US's supplying of iraq.

We supplied Iraq with the necessary ingredients and technology to make nerve gas, as did Germany, France, Italy, etc.

But those components are hardly specialized. Any nation with the ability to manufacture pesticides and industrial chemicals can just as easily manufacture chemical weapons.

We never sold them nerve gas.

We did give them Anthrax samples though, if that makes you happy.

553 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 1:53:56pm

re: #551 Occasional Reader

One last time.

I'll type slowly, so maybe you can understand.

Saddam used CHEMICAL WEAPONS against Iran; blister agents (think "mustard gas"), and sarin.

These weapons are made from - as their name implies - CHEMICALS.

Yes, strains of things like anthrax bacillus were sold by the US to Iraq. BIOLOGICAL agnents. Bad idea.

But that's not was used against Iran.

So, your original talking point here (Iran angry at US for selling Saddam "nerve gas") evaporates.

See?


SARIN IS NOT A BLISTER AGENT, IT IS A NERVE AGENT YOU TARD

furthermore, if saddam didn't use sarin against iran (although you've already admitted he has), why are there still shells being found with sarin in them belonging to saddam?

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

554 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 1:55:22pm

i think what i just did to occasional reader is what we here on the internet call being 'pwned'


further reading on sarin for you, occasional reader

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

555 doubter4444  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 1:57:26pm

re: #466 jcm


There's No False Choice on Iran
The consequence of a weak president.
by Fred Barnes

Fred Barns? Really?
Good lord, I think Obama should have spoken up more, perhaps, as I, nor do any of you, all have any idea of what to do other than giving a speech offering moral support.
But to think that this hack has any other design that to attack a Democratic President is nonsense.
Talk about those using the opportunity for political purposes, he and his cronies at the NRO take the cake.
(see: [Link: tiny.cc...] )
KT posted it above in comment # 279, so go to it if you want)

I like this site because for the most part it leans the way I do and the discussions are reasonably smart and much more well informed than a lot of blogs, but I don't like to get spun, from either side.
To think that these guys have any (or any more than Obama does) regard for the out come of the events in Iran than concern for regaining power and slamming the opposite party is foolish.
The commenter's here express what most of America feels (Left and Right, aside for the wing-nuts) - sympathy, outrage, frustration and horror.
As it should be, but don't confuse political grandstanding with real emotion.

556 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 2:00:40pm

re: #554 SpaceJesus

i think what i just did to occasional reader is what we here on the internet call being 'pwned'

Um... no, what you just did was reveal that English is not your first language. At least, that's the most generous explanation.

My quote:

Saddam used CHEMICAL WEAPONS against Iran; blister agents (think "mustard gas"), and sarin.

Note that word "and".

Your shrieking response:


SARIN IS NOT A BLISTER AGENT, IT IS A NERVE AGENT YOU TARD

I didn't say it was a blister agent, you idiot. Rather, I grouped it, ALONG WITH BLISTER AGENTS, as a "chemical weapon".

Honestly, are you drunk?

557 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 2:02:20pm

re: #552 Hawaii69

We supplied Iraq with the necessary ingredients and technology to make nerve gas, as did Germany, France, Italy, etc.

But those components are hardly specialized. Any nation with the ability to manufacture pesticides and industrial chemicals can just as easily manufacture chemical weapons.

We never sold them nerve gas.

We did give them Anthrax samples though, if that makes you happy.


the internet tells me the US sold iraq a shit-ton of different chemical weapons as well as the ability to mass manufacture them. it doesn't mention any chemical in particular, but since sarin shells from the iran-iraq war have been found, i see no reason not to take the logical conclusion that these are a result of us supply and support.

558 doubter4444  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 2:02:56pm

re: #550 Hawaii69

He hasn't been silent.

He just hasn't said what you'd like him to say.

Whatever he says is irrelevant to the situation on the
ground in Iran. Voicing vehement support for the protesters would do them more harm than good.

This isn't Eastern Europe in 1990. These protests are
anti-ahmadinejad, anti military dictatorship. It's a battle between establishment factions that has been oversimplified in the West as a secular fight for "freedom". Mousavi's supporters are not trying to scrap the Iranian Revolution. They're trying to reform it.

I think this distills my feeling over the whole thing.
It's a pivotal moment, but not necessarily for the reasons we want.
Does not diminish the importance, nor the tragedy, but it can help keep it in perspective. And it keeps in perspective what we can and should do in reacting.

559 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 2:08:39pm

re: #557 SpaceJesus

the internet tells me the US sold iraq a shit-ton of different chemical weapons

No. Not even "the internet" tells you that. Not that you've linked to, anyway. You really are being quite dense.

And by the way;

furthermore, if saddam didn't use sarin against iran (although you've already admitted he has)

Er... what? You're not even making any sense now.

560 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 2:10:44pm

re: #556 Occasional Reader

I didn't say it was a blister agent, you idiot. Rather, I grouped it, ALONG WITH BLISTER AGENTS, as a "chemical weapon".

Honestly, are you drunk?


well how come that doesn't support your conclusion then? you admit saddam used (sarin) nerve gas? isn't that what I've been talking about all along?

561 SpaceJesus  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 2:16:12pm

re: #559 Occasional Reader

well, the riegle report seems to contradict you


"U.N. inspectors had identified many United States manufactured items that had been exported from the United States to Iraq under licenses issued by the Department of Commerce, and [established] that these items were used to further Iraq's chemical and nuclear weapons development and its missile delivery system development programs"

562 Dreader1962  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 2:40:56pm

re: #557 SpaceJesus

the internet tells me the US sold iraq a shit-ton of different chemical weapons as well as the ability to mass manufacture them. it doesn't mention any chemical in particular, but since sarin shells from the iran-iraq war have been found, i see no reason not to take the logical conclusion that these are a result of us supply and support.

'the internet tells me...'

'nuff said about this one. Read a book or two - or have some experience in life and/or actual intelligence/military affairs. There are a great number of people on this board who gain their information through research or even direct experience (like me).

But by all means, continue your debate fully informed by 'teh internet'.

563 tommygum  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 2:43:29pm

re: #11 Iron Fist

This is probably the best Opertunity Iran is going to have to throw off the yoke of the Mullahs. This is a real dividing line. Something on , say, July 4 would be nice.

Lemmy agree with you there.

564 tommygum  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 2:46:38pm

re: #16 Dar ul Harb

Sadly, her death likely won't be the only one that results in a memorable image of the Iranian regime's response to the protests.

How about A-Jad hanging from a crane.

565 Kulhwch  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 4:08:50pm

re: #8 A.W.

Gotta say, A.W., i have been disappointed in your refusal to start a blog and put in the kind of stories that we, your potential readers, insist on you having, irregardless of what you wish.

}:/     [A.W. short for Ass Wipe?]

566 Kulhwch  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 4:29:14pm

re: #63 debutaunt

I don't believe they were trying to help save her.

I wonder something about that.  I'm not a doctor, nor am I in the medical field at all, but something didn't make sense to me.  I'm given to understand that she was shot through the heart.  Normal practice is, I think (and I'm using up all my accumulated M.A.S.H. late night viewing knowledge here) when shot is to apply a dressing and pressure to try to staunch the flow of blood until medical help can get there.  However, if you apply pressure to a damaged heart and hold that pressure there, the heart can not beat (again, I'm just guessing here) and the result is less than wonderful.

As well (and I'm remembering the street theatre that was done with the supposedly-shot child a few months ago, covered in these very pages) I noticed that the blood on her face didn't appear there until one of the people appearing to help her put his hands on either side of it.  That damned cynic in me said "I wonder if he has squibs in those palms?" ... the blood seemed to just ooze out as if it had welled up in her mouth and nose and just run over the edges.  No spattering, no explosive coughing as someone might if they were drowning in it, etc.

Before I get jumped on here, I'm just asking questions.  Emotionally, the videos, etc., have stung me to the quick and I'm enough of a patriot to feel a kinship with these people in their struggle.  Maybe there's someone in the crowd here who can reassure me?

}:(     [I just have some bug-a-bears in my understanding ... ]

567 AFVetWife  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 4:33:18pm

re: #131 Son of the Black Dog
I agree completely! Also, I would love to see a truly strong response from "our President." All he has to do is send a tape of some of his address in Cairo to their TV. In that, he SOUNDS like he understands the human desire for freedom. Will be very interesting to see what he says/does now!

568 AFVetWife  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 4:35:07pm

re: #132 doppelganglander

Also note Sarkozy's comments on the uprising in Iran. How amazing, that the French President sounds more "American" than our own!

569 AFVetWife  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 4:51:55pm

re: #243 Abu Lahab

Shame is right! With burgeoning democracies in Iraq and even Afghanistan, this is the perfect opportunity to champion REAL democracy in Iran. With democracy taking hold in the region, hopefully there would be a better chance for Israel to survive and thrive.

570 Dad O' Blondes  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 4:56:51pm

WHERE IS MY VOTE?

571 Manster  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 5:13:31pm

Rest in peace, Neda.

572 Dirk Diggler  Mon, Jun 22, 2009 5:48:54pm

This video was clearly a hoax. It was most likely filmed by the CIA and Mossad to whip up the American public so that they'd support an attack on Iran's nuclear installations.

/Heavy sarcasm. Rest assured though, some twit will make this claim.

573 BigDog  Tue, Jun 23, 2009 8:25:06pm

Rest In Peace Neda


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