Harry’s Place: Nutterdom on US Right

World • Views: 2,532

Here’s how the people disrupting town hall meetings look to “David T” at the center left British blog Harry’s Place: Nutterdom on the U.S. Right.

Believe me, we’ve been here in the U.K. This is pretty much the sort of lunacy that we saw in the Labour Party during 19 long years of opposition, the low point of which was the 1983 election: in which Labour sought to return to No. 10 on a platform of unilateral disarmament that was premised upon the mistaken notion that the U.S.S.R. was a benign entity with only pacific ambitions. I suspect we’re going to see a little bit of this again, after next year’s election. I’m braced for it.

The thing is: moderate Republicans should NEVER have allowed their party to get to the state it is in now. I don’t know how they did.

What does this make me think about the U.S. Right?

Well, if a moderate Republican like Mike Castle - a descendant of Benjamin Franklin - is treated like this, it makes me think that the party is in a shambles, has no ability to control its base, and is unelectable.

Alternatively - and this is worse - the Republican leadership actually believes that rattling on about birth certificates, combined with a platform of creationism and gay bashing is an electoral winner. What that means is that there is no home for moderates (i.e. non mad people) in the Republican Party.

Parties win elections when they define the mainstream, and then occupy it. If the Republican Party genuinely believes that a citizens’ army of wild eyed Pledge of Allegiance chanters will ever represent the centre ground, they’re lost.

Jump to bottom

430 comments
1 John Neverbend  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:01:07am

"Moderates (i.e. non mad people)." I love it!

2 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:01:57am

"Well, if a moderate Republican like Mike Castle - a descendant of Benjamin Franklin - is treated like this, it makes me think that the party is in a shambles, has no ability to control its base, and is unelectable."

LRINO!

(Limey Republican In Name Only)

3 MikeAlv77  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:03:21am

Now I see a Willie Nelson ad... hmmm...

4 NukeAtomrod  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:03:56am

An understandable opinion from someone that only knows America from what he sees on TV.

5 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:04:13am

Rational voices are no longer welcome on the right. GOP politicians have made a mess but the constituents have pushed things over the edge.

6 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:04:55am
Well, if a moderate Republican like Mike Castle - a descendant of Benjamin Franklin - is treated like this, it makes me think that the party is in a shambles, has no ability to control its base, and is unelectable.

Indeed. There is no leadership to control a message or the base, and when a party can't control those two items, winning elections is nearly impossible.

7 arf  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:05:14am

How come we never heard this sort of criticism from the left, about the left, doing orders of magnitude worse when Bush was in office?

8 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:05:24am

Oddly enough, we've been here before during the 1930s. The right in the US got so hung up on isolationism and opposing FDR that they ran on simply not being FDR. They lost.

9 NukeAtomrod  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:06:06am

re: #5 Killgore Trout

Rational voices are no longer welcome on the right. GOP politicians have made a mess but the constituents have pushed things over the edge.

Yeah! They're acting just like Liberals! For shame!

10 Ben Hur  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:07:04am

Democrat President.
Democrat House.
Democrat Senate.

They own it.

11 Shug  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:07:20am

99% of the people that are pissed at Obama and the Democrats are good solid Americans.


It's a shame that there is a concerted effort to paint good conservative Americans as nutters simply for opposing the radical agenda of Obama/Pelosi and because a small percentage of people are acting like walking sphincters in their opposition

12 Shug  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:07:34am

re: #6 Sharmuta

Indeed. There is no leadership to control a message or the base, and when a party can't control those two items, winning elections is nearly impossible.


except for 2008

13 Charles Johnson  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:09:11am

Harry's Place links to this article at the Times Online by David Aaronovitch: Obama gives birth to genuine hatred.

14 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:09:38am

Just remember - if embracing the irrational and repressive agenda of the die hard SoCons is the litmus test for "Real Republican" then you can look to the state of California as testament to where that leads -

1) an ineffective and shrinking minority party.

2) an out of control majority party bankrupting the state, the local governments, and many businesses.

But by all means - don't argue the facts. Don't argue fiscal insanity on the side of Democrats. Instead - embrace the irrational!

Call your opponents godless people destined for the hellfire instead! That will get people to vote for you! And it gives the opposition nothing whatsoever to use against your side in make their case.

15 Shug  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:10:27am
16 The Left  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:10:32am

re: #5 Killgore Trout

Rational voices are no longer welcome on the right. GOP politicians have made a mess but the constituents have pushed things over the edge.

Not only that, now the GOP pols are actively pandering to the lunatic fringe. Witness the birther bill.

17 Randall Gross  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:10:39am

re: #7 arf

How come we never heard this sort of criticism from the left, about the left, doing orders of magnitude worse when Bush was in office?

There was a lot of internecine warfare in the left 2003-2005, the media is certainly not going to highlight it unless it becomes unavoidable - one example where that occurred was when DKOS went after Lieberman.

18 BlueCanuck  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:10:48am

I see that the comments for that article were lead off by a Nutter. Nirthers are really going at it hammer and tongs.

19 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:11:18am
Alternatively - and this is worse - the Republican leadership actually believes that rattling on about birth certificates, combined with a platform of creationism and gay bashing is an electoral winner. What that means is that there is no home for moderates (i.e. non mad people) in the Republican Party.

Those that don't agree with the hard right are demonized as fakes (RINO!) and made to feel unwelcome. Instead of listening to moderates, independents, centrists, and even slightly left-of-center voters, folks want listen to kooks and hysterical pundits, and transform Rules for Radicals to fit the right's agenda. This only drives more of the middle away, and likewise is turning off needed members of the base. And when we're handed another electoral loss, these same people will wonder what went wrong and not make the connection yet again.

20 lostlakehiker  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:12:36am

It's pretty simple, really. The Republicans must win some elections to make any more difference than the Ron Paul party. To win elections, it is necessary to get more votes than the other guy. Not just here and there, in backwater Alabama districts, but nationally.

Nationally, creationism, muttering about birth certificates, and insisting that smoking doesn't cause lung cancer [oops, that smoking coal doesn't cause global warming] won't work.

Let's say you're creationist and you don't think smoking coal causes global warming. Is there anything on your agenda, proactive or defensive, that both matters, and is winnable?

That's how politics works. Lincoln didn't run on a platform of abolition, because great moral crusade or no, he understood that the country wasn't going to elect him on that platform. You do what's doable, or you do nothing but mutter on the sidelines.

Enacting Krauthammer's health reform plan rather than Obama's? Building nuclear power plants so we have a secure energy future? Putting reading and math at the forefront in schools, and seeing to it that if the public schools cannot or will not meet minimal standards then vouchers are available? Isn't there anything that both matters to you and is doable?

Winnable?

Impotent rage is not healthy, and it invites scorn and derision, which impels one to yet more impotent rage. This is a hamster wheel that isn't even fun. Get off it already and go to work for achievable ends.

21 turn  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:13:07am

re: #7 arf

How come we never heard this sort of criticism from the left, about the left, doing orders of magnitude worse when Bush was in office?

true dat b - arf (couldn't resist)

There is a double standard on the left, eight years of Bush bashing and never a call to pull back from the left. Now with a little repub in their face tactics they call the right unamerican.

22 medaura18586  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:13:35am

re: #5 Killgore Trout

Rational voices are no longer welcome on the right. GOP politicians have made a mess but the constituents have pushed things over the edge.

I don't think they are welcome on the other side of the spectrum either. And I think Republicans will make a big comeback in 2010. I have very mixed feelings about it. They don't deserve to come back so soon: they are as corrupt as ever, had eight years under Bush to fix things and didn't, and Obama's election only got them crazier, more extreme, and conspiratorial, instead of prompting them to regroup and refocus on their non-controversial basics of limited government, fiscal responsibility, and strong defense. That being said, the Democrats are screwing up everything they're touching right now and don't deserve to remain in power.

If I could retreat in a Caribbean island, I would.

23 The Left  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:13:38am

From the Aaronovitch article:

So strange is this theory that it imagines the plot to falsify the President’s birth record was hatched before he was, thus explaining the otherwise terminally awkward placing in two Hawaii newspapers in 1961 of birth announcements of a son to the Obamas. Mr Obama is thus the foetal Manchurian candidate, although it might have been easier from the conspirators’ point of view, one imagines, to have allowed him actually to be born on US soil.

HA!

24 Dreader1962  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:13:44am

He refers to the Pledge of Allegiance - I assume he was talking about the woman who disrupted Mike Castle's meeting and then demanded everyone recite the Pledge. I was disgusted that most people actually did it, including Castle - not disgusted with the Pledge, but with someone making it a 'litmus test' on who in the room was a 'true patriot'.

Folks, this is Fascism - blind ranting topped off with chants and flag waving, all done with a bully's tone, "Join or be cast out!".

25 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:13:50am

re: #9 NukeAtomrod

Yeah! They're acting just like Liberals! For shame!

It's a little tough to compare but I'm starting to think the right is worse today than the left was last year. There is a very real possibility we're going to see a wave of right wing politically inspired terrorism or assassinations. Rhetoric couldn't possibly get more extreme, people are frightened and confused by conspiracy theories. How Air commenters are talking right now about how the rise in anti-government militias are really "freedom fighters".
I really can't recall being so concerned about political violence before.

26 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:14:14am

re: #6 Sharmuta

Indeed. There is no leadership to control a message or the base, and when a party can't control those two items, winning elections is nearly impossible.

Exactly. However, this has happened to the Republicans before. It was very interesting to read Shlaes's The Forgotten Man. The Republicans of the 30s were so caught up in their isolationism and hatred of FDR that they had no real message throughout the decade. That compounded what Hoover had done earlier during his administration. By not having a message, they left the door wide open for the other party. It looks like that might happen again.

27 Shug  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:14:27am

re: #24 Dreader1962

Folks, this is Fascism - blind ranting topped off with chants and flag waving, all done with a bully's tone, "Join or be cast out!".

YES WE CAN

Si Se Puede !

28 Charles Johnson  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:14:52am
One recent viral YouTube video shows a town hall meeting on health in Delaware in which the veteran Republican Mike Castle is being yelled at by an apparently insane woman flourishing a birth certificate in a plastic bag, and demanding (1) that Mr Obama produce his, and (2) that everyone present recite the Pledge of Allegiance. Which, amazingly, instead of calling for an ambulance, they do.

Yep.

29 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:15:57am

re: #10 Ben Hur

Democrat President.
Democrat House.
Democrat Senate.

They own it.

Republicans had it all and lost it. Why?

They screwed over the financial conservatives who make up the moderates.

This is a re-run of the bad movie that chased people like Pete Wilson from power in the Republican party.

Keep it pure, SoCons. And keep it small so none of that "moderate" stuff infects your moral purity and convictions. Oh - and stay home like last time if some guy with an "R" after his name gets in a sex scandal. Can't have fornication staining the the good name of the party - I remember the callers to Rush - "Better to let Pelosi win! People will then see! Then we will return without needinG the RINOs!" That plan worked out well.

30 Randall Gross  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:16:10am

As long as Conservatives and Republicans remain the Anti party we will remain out of power.

31 turn  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:17:25am

re: #11 Shug

99% of the people that are pissed at Obama and the Democrats are good solid Americans.


It's a shame that there is a concerted effort to paint good conservative Americans as nutters simply for opposing the radical agenda of Obama/Pelosi and because a small percentage of people are acting like walking sphincters in their opposition

I feel the same way shug, the dems and their MSM brethren are effectively painting all repubs as brown shirted, Nazi embracing, angry, birthin, mobs. Not the case for the vast majority.

32 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:17:36am

re: #30 Thanos

As long as Conservatives and Republicans remain the Anti party we will remain out of power.

It's happened before (1932-1952), and it happened to the Dems during 2000-2006. People don't really care for the party whose only message is "I hate X in power".

33 Infidel  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:17:39am

Such an exercise in subjectivism. Why should any American concerned with his nation's future care what some bloke in England thinks on how he exercise my rights. I will continue to petition my elected officials. If said officials have demonstrated by their actions to be a menace to my life, liberty and property, I'll be civil, but not silenced.

34 Gus  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:17:58am

re: #18 BlueCanuck

I see that the comments for that article were lead off by a Nutter. Nirthers are really going at it hammer and tongs.

There was an article at Breitbart that was led off by a nirther, deather, Bilderberger conspiracy kook last night. These weirdos are now calling themselves "Constitutionalists" or something.

35 JammieWearingFool  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:18:58am

According to the generic Congressional ballot from Rasmussen, the GOP leads over Democrats by five points currently (about a 12-point swing from last November), the GOP leads big in both Virginia and NJ, states Obama carried, Obama is cratering in polls, his policies are widely disliked and Democrats are in full panic.

But it's the GOP that has problems, I guess.

36 Randall Gross  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:18:58am

re: #29 karmic_inquisitor

Republicans had it all and lost it. Why?

They screwed over the financial conservatives who make up the moderates.

This is a re-run of the bad movie that chased people like Pete Wilson from power in the Republican party.

Keep it pure, SoCons. And keep it small so none of that "moderate" stuff infects your moral purity and convictions. Oh - and stay home like last time if some guy with an "R" after his name gets in a sex scandal. Can't have fornication staining the the good name of the party - I remember the callers to Rush - "Better to let Pelosi win! People will then see! Then we will return without needinG the RINOs!" That plan worked out well.

Add to that the open season on RINOs from Toomey's Club for Growth, Rush Limbaugh, and the Nativists that started full roar in 2005. They tossed Reagan's policy aside and went after all the moderates who actually could win in populous states. The long term hunt for McCain ensured his loss. Now we have a new immigration bill coming up in September, and zero ability to affect it. Happy?

37 The Left  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:19:15am

re: #26 Honorary Yooper

Exactly. However, this has happened to the Republicans before. It was very interesting to read Shlaes's The Forgotten Man. The Republicans of the 30s were so caught up in their isolationism and hatred of FDR that they had no real message throughout the decade..

The only 'message' they had was passing a spiteful and retailatory legislation to ensure that no-one, ever again, could hold office for as long as FDR did.

38 turn  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:19:40am

re: #20 lostlakehiker

Great post hiker, thanks.

39 shortshrift  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:19:52am

A take on who is inciting whom:

Article by Ben Johnson

40 pianobuff  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:19:56am

Here's what confounds me. In spite of there being a featured crazy every day it seems, somehow the R's are gaining ground on generic ballot preference, in couple of governor races, etc.

How is that possible? For everything that is wrong, this wouldn't seem to be a plausible outcome. Clues, anyone?

41 Diamond Bullet  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:20:29am

I'm not putting a fork in the Republicans just yet. I personally know 3 Obama voters that already regret their decision. Obama had a perfect storm of factors that enabled his election, including an unpopular war, economic crisis, weak Republican opposition, and a slavish media. Interestingly, his failures are all the more stupendous because they happen despite having the deck stacked thusly in his favor. Folks on the right are not doing themselves any favors by blathering on about which crate in the giant Raiders of the Lost Ark warehouse holds Obama's long form birth certificate, but at the same time Obama is to date the most incompetent President of my lifetime (which includes Carter). We're talking about a guy who basically ignored a democratic revolution in Iran, but immediately leapt into action when a personal buddy of his threw a temper tantrum outside his tony Cambridge home. These events will not be forgotten.

42 smorpheus  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:20:29am

re: #7 arf

How come we never heard this sort of criticism from the left, about the left, doing orders of magnitude worse when Bush was in office?

Wait, you've never heard of Code Pink? You've never heard them get ridiculed by both the left and the right?

43 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:20:50am

I think it is time to simply screw the Republican Party. Let it be the Social Conservative Coalition which it now is.

Instead a third party needs to take a big state's electoral votes off the table so that neither of the big two can win the White House via the electoral college without forming a coalition with third party.

That is the only path I see to true reform.

It has to happen in either California, Texas or Florida.

44 MikeAlv77  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:21:27am

The interesting part of the article is that he blames the right for the violence at the Florida meeting when it was union guys who did the damage. Any time violence occurs at these meetings, its the right's fault no matter who does it. I think Dems know it and are taking advantage of it.

45 HelloDare  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:21:40am

re: #15 Shug

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

That's Spinoff worthy.

46 JammieWearingFool  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:21:58am

re: #40 pianobuff

Here's what confounds me. In spite of there being a featured crazy every day it seems, somehow the R's are gaining ground on generic ballot preference, in couple of governor races, etc.

How is that possible? For everything that is wrong, this wouldn't seem to be a plausible outcome. Clues, anyone?

For whatever perceived problems the GOP has, people are recoiling at the far-left policies of the radicals Obama, Pelosi and Reid.

If we had even 20% of the media objective in their reporting, it would be much, much worse for the Democrats.

If we had an honest media, Democrats would be facing extinction.

47 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:22:08am

re: #36 Thanos

Add to that the open season on RINOs from Toomey's Club for Growth, Rush Limbaugh, and the Nativists that started full roar in 2005. They tossed Reagan's policy aside and went after all the moderates who actually could win in populous states. The long term hunt for McCain ensured his loss. Now we have a new immigration bill coming up in September, and zero ability to affect it. Happy?

Yep - the 11th commandment is only invoked when you call them on their violation of it.

I got tired of it and left the party.

They can bask in the moral purity that purges facilitate.

48 The Left  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:22:12am

re: #33 Infidel

Such an exercise in subjectivism. Why should any American concerned with his nation's future care what some bloke in England thinks on how he exercise my rights

My guess is that you might be a big fan of Mark Steyn, and probably once upon a time Christopher Hitchens. Hint: Not Americans.

BTW, one's citizenship has no bearing on the validity (or otherwise) of one's arguments.

49 filetandrelease  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:22:17am

I see two distinct movements happening today in the conservative arena. One is the conspiracy folks with wild eyes and the other are the angry constituent vociferously proclaiming to be heard. The former being a waste of time unless you are a democrat subversively attempting to discredit the Republican Party. The later IMO has merit and there is some evidence it may actually be effective, and of equal importance is completely unrelated to the former. Cross over’s for sure but the angry constituents that I have seen and listened to seem much more main stream. No lunacy, just anger.

50 Spenser (with an S)  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:22:36am

re: #42 smorpheus

Wait, you've never heard of Code Pink? You've never heard them get ridiculed by both the left and the right?

Hold on. If we have to answer for and claim LaRouche, the left has to own Code Pink. They are one of the cornerstone voting and protest blocks.

51 Dreader1962  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:22:43am

re: #40 pianobuff

Here's what confounds me. In spite of there being a featured crazy every day it seems, somehow the R's are gaining ground on generic ballot preference, in couple of governor races, etc.

How is that possible? For everything that is wrong, this wouldn't seem to be a plausible outcome. Clues, anyone?

For me, I wouldn't be celebrating if the nirthers, nutters, and IDers were the cause of the win and the voice that controlled the next GOP majority. There's winning - and then there is effective, financially stable, just government; I want both to be the case.

52 Randall Gross  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:22:47am

re: #43 karmic_inquisitor

I think it is time to simply screw the Republican Party. Let it be the Social Conservative Coalition which it now is.

Instead a third party needs to take a big state's electoral votes off the table so that neither of the big two can win the White House via the electoral college without forming a coalition with third party.

That is the only path I see to true reform.

It has to happen in either California, Texas or Florida.

The only problem with that is that the only viable third parties are all run by nutballs, and have aims that are antithetical to our constitution. Even the one that calls itself "The Consititution Party"... they are more socon than the R socons.

53 Kenneth  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:22:52am

Another report of violence at the president's townhall meeting...

Involving swastikas, audience members assaulted, posters urging assassination...

Interestingly, this incident was not given much coverage so far...

Maybe because it happened in 2002...

to President Bush...

54 Cato the Elder  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:23:10am

This one goes out to all the crazy screamers, regardless of party affiliation:

Don't flog us your mad schemes political.
We can see you're an object of ridicule.
You would sell your own kids
If your polls hit the skids
And the press said to dump them was critical.

55 Ben Hur  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:23:37am

There was no hate before Obama.

56 pianobuff  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:24:29am

re: #50 Spenser (with an S)

Hold on. If we have to answer for and claim LaRouche, the left has to own Code Pink. They are one of the cornerstone voting and protest blocks.

I'm still not sure why we have to claim LaRouche on this matter. For God's sakes they are protesting the "Obama Nazi Healthcare Plan" because they want single-payer. Is that a "right" position? Geez.

57 MikeAlv77  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:25:08am

re: #55 Ben Hur

There was no hate before Obama.

True.. there was none of the gnashing of teeth when the left was saying horrible things about Bush, Palin and McCain (and lets not foget the wonderful articles on McCain's wife...) But someone says they don't like The 0ne's programs... BLASPHEMY!!!

58 Cato the Elder  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:25:10am

re: #22 medaura18586

If I could retreat in a Caribbean island, I would.

I'll take the Mediterranean. No hurricanes.

59 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:25:20am

re: #41 Diamond Bullet

I'm not putting a fork in the Republicans just yet. I personally know 3 Obama voters that already regret their decision. Obama had a perfect storm of factors that enabled his election, including an unpopular war, economic crisis, weak Republican opposition, and a slavish media. Interestingly, his failures are all the more stupendous because they happen despite having the deck stacked thusly in his favor. Folks on the right are not doing themselves any favors by blathering on about which crate in the giant Raiders of the Lost Ark warehouse holds Obama's long form birth certificate, but at the same time Obama is to date the most incompetent President of my lifetime (which includes Carter). We're talking about a guy who basically ignored a democratic revolution in Iran, but immediately leapt into action when a personal buddy of his threw a temper tantrum outside his tony Cambridge home. These events will not be forgotten.

That has not translated into support for Republicans.

[Link: www.rasmussenreports.com...]

60 pianobuff  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:25:21am

re: #51 Dreader1962

For me, I wouldn't be celebrating if the nirthers, nutters, and IDers were the cause of the win and the voice that controlled the next GOP majority. There's winning - and then there is effective, financially stable, just government; I want both to be the case.

Not celebrating...puzzled. Any clues?

61 ointmentfly  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:25:23am

It doesn't matter what republicans say or do. The democrat party has pulled out all of the ethical stops after being bottled up after 20 years of being out of power.

They (obama adminsitration and Soros) just handed out $200 cash per kid in NYC for school supplies (or I pods perhaps?) The votes of the people receiving the $200 are the same as a business owner's that employs 1000 people. Which votes are are democrats going after?

62 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:25:25am

re: #39 shortshrift

A take on who is inciting whom:

Article by Ben Johnson

Sorry- blaming teh eeevil left! is standard fare from the house of horowitz. You're just a victim and nothing you do is ever wrong. I'm not interested in wallowing in victimhood, but knock yourself out.

63 Spenser (with an S)  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:25:45am

re: #56 pianobuff


I'm still not sure why we have to claim LaRouche on this matter. For God's sakes they are protesting the "Obama Nazi Healthcare Plan" because they want single-payer. Is that a "right" position? Gee

You're correct. I'm just saying if we have to defend a group that doesn't even vote R, then the dems must own Code Pink.

64 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:25:55am

re: #42 smorpheus

Wait, you've never heard of Code Pink? You've never heard them get ridiculed by both the left and the right?

You said "Code Pink."

BUY AHAVA PRODUCTS!

65 medaura18586  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:25:59am

re: #58 Cato the Elder

I'll take the Mediterranean. No hurricanes.

Too familiar to me... Though I swear once in a while I am tempted to move back.

66 jpkoch  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:26:18am

Talk about believing everything the MSM tells you... Here's a bit of news: Domestically politics in the US circa 2001-2008 were run by the Moderates. The GOP as run by Moderates is a losing game. If people want Progressivism, they know they'll get the real thing in the Democratic Party (along with so much more).

As of today, the GOP is irrelevant on the national scene. Most of these "eruptions of anger" are local, more or less spontaneous, and would never be underwritten by the weak kneed Republicans. From what I've seen so far, most of the GOP lawmakers are either hiding, or apologizing.

67 Shug  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:26:31am

When does Cindy Sheehan move camp Casey to Chicago ?

68 Cato the Elder  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:26:57am

re: #55 Ben Hur

There was no hate before Obama.

Tool.

69 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:27:15am

re: #37 iceweasel

The only 'message' they had was passing a spiteful and retailatory legislation to ensure that no-one, ever again, could hold office for as long as FDR did.

Actually, that was a combination of Democrats and Republicans, but it also went back to an historical precident that FDR broke. Ever since Washington, presidents stepped down at the end of their second term (a few did try to seek their party's nomination for a third and lost). FDR broke with that tradition, angering not just Republicans, but also Democrats who felt that the tradition of stepping down after two terms should have been respected.

Eisenhower, a Republican under whom the 22nd Amendment was first applied, expressed concern over its passage regarding the president becoming a lame duck in his second term. BTW, the 22nd Amendment also did not apply to the president under whom it was passed, Harry Truman, a Democrat. He could've run for a third term even with its passage.

70 pianobuff  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:27:16am

re: #63 Spenser (with an S)

You're correct. I'm just saying if we have to defend a group that doesn't even vote R, then the dems must own Code Pink.

I guess I view single payer as more of a cause for the left, not the right. That's why I'm not sure why LaRouche's group is being clumped in with a bunch of others who want anything BUT single payer.

71 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:27:29am

re: #63 Spenser (with an S)

You're correct. I'm just saying if we have to defend a group that doesn't even vote R, then the dems must own Code Pink.

New "drinking game": promote AHAVA products whenever Code Pink is mentioned.

72 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:28:07am

re: #52 Thanos

The only problem with that is that the only viable third parties are all run by nutballs, and have aims that are antithetical to our constitution. Even the one that calls itself "The Consititution Party"... they are more socon than the R socons.

Which is why you need one that has a regional / policy focus.

You pitch "we need these things done and neither party is willing to do it"

For California, it is simple - water. And disaffection with Democrats is high, but Republicans are still seen as moralists trying to run your private life.

Don't know what issue you could lead on in the other two.

73 Wendya  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:28:15am

While we're getting rid of the kooks on the right, can we also include the people who want the government to take care of them, tuck them in at night, take them to the doctor, tell them what to eat, be their Mom and Dad?

74 Ben Hur  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:28:19am

re: #68 Cato the Elder

Tool.

Wow.

You really are a tough old man.

75 BLBfootballs  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:28:44am

I'm totally lost on where he gets the "gay bashing" charge from.

He also prattles on excessively about constituent behavior. Please... Leftist voters behaved far worse during the recent "Bushitler" years.

An increasing number of Americans are increasingly angry that their Representatives and Senators would even consider something as cockamamie as government medicine. That's why we're seeing anger emerge during these "townhall" things.

The anger will abate. It is not permanent. And interestingly, it appears increasingly popular for the time being.

76 Infidel  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:28:50am

Yep it's the Republicans who are getting into hot water:

"Democrats have a senior citizen problem.

Frustrated older Americans are packing the town halls on health care. They are incredibly passionate about their Medicare benefits. Polls show senior citizens largely disapprove of health care reform ideas so far."

Read more: [Link: www.politico.com...]

77 Spenser (with an S)  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:28:54am

re: #68 Cato the Elder

Tool.

UhOh... that sounds Ad Hominem.

78 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:29:22am
"If the Republican Party genuinely believes that a citizens’ army of wild eyed Pledge of Allegiance chanters will ever represent the centre ground, they’re lost."

"One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." - yeah, Harry, that's terrible isn't it?

Judging from the pictures in the linked article, Harry equates the town-hall protests with Islamofascist rage-boy demonstrations.
Screw Harry's Islamophobic ass.

79 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:29:49am

re: #73 Wendya

While we're getting rid of the kooks on the right, can we also include the people who want the government to take care of them, tuck them in at night, take them to the doctor, tell them what to eat, be their Mom and Dad?

What makes you think they're not the same people? What's the difference between a "compassionate conservative" increasing social spending and a democrat doing the same thing?

80 korla pundit  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:31:08am

I agree. But:

I am tired of hearing this lament when it lumps screeching nutjobs and conspiracy theorists in with normal everyday people who are adamantly opposed to socialized medicine, illegal immigrant amnesty, open borders, support for foreign dictators, abandonment of our allies, adaption of foreign treaties that are counter to the Constitution and degrading to our sovereignty, government intrusion into private enterprise and private life, and taxes, taxes, taxes.

It annoys me to read an article (not this one, but there are many) that lump Mark Levin and other pundits in with actual murderers and whackos, as if that delegitimizes any critics of the leftist agenda.

The GOP really needs to divest itself of its neanderthal fringe elements. It's painfully true. But it also needs to beware of overly embracing "moderates" who may gain a Congressional majority, but at the expense of policy and principle. Many of these people are not any more conservative than a Massachusetts Democrat. They aim to dilute the party with an imaginary "big tent."

The party needs to redefine itself, and devise a solid WRITTEN platform of basic core principles that the majority of members approve, which it will then defend in Congress without compromise, and anybody who wants to be a party member should be held to it. Otherwise, we can have no confidence that voting for a Republican will not be just as much a surrender to the leftist hordes as staying home. The party needs to stop reaching so far over the aisle that they forget who sent them to vote in their name.

81 medaura18586  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:31:12am

re: #73 Wendya

While we're getting rid of the kooks on the right, can we also include the people who want the government to take care of them, tuck them in at night, take them to the doctor, tell them what to eat, be their Mom and Dad?

Good luck.

82 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:32:13am

re: #77 Spenser (with an S)

UhOh... that sounds Ad Hominem.

Listen to you, getting all anthropological on us and all/

83 Infidel  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:32:18am

Re: 78,

Didn't you know that those who recite the Pledge of Allegiance are a wild eyed fringe group? It's Obama, Ayers, Van Jones, Wright, et.al. who represent the oh so sane moderates.

/snark

84 Randall Gross  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:32:24am

Red Ryder used to be the lead result when you searched on "Lunatic Fringe" at youtube, now it's Glen Beck instead.

85 Drider  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:32:30am

Infidel wrote:

Such an exercise in subjectivism. Why should any American concerned with his nation's future care what some bloke in England thinks on how he exercise my rights. I will continue to petition my elected officials. If said officials have demonstrated by their actions to be a menace to my life, liberty and property, I'll be civil, but not silenced.


Agreed 110%

86 arf  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:32:35am

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

This is the sort of thing I’m talking about. I live in the Northwest, I remember those Portland demonstrations, Seattle demonstrations, they were orders of magnitude worse.

Went to an art show a few years ago. Standing under a giant, bigger-than-life painting of Bush, lying on his side, naked, with rats eating his genitalia. This is art. Happened to run into a friend, and we discussed certain conservative commentators and a book that came out. Artistic types overhear us, look at us like they smelled shit. And we’re standing underneath this painting with Bush and the rats. And we’re the bad guys for a simple conversation that’s none of their business anyway.

No, it doesn’t “justify” what some people have done here, but geez, c’mon, where was the left, when their side was doing far, far worse.

I saw the violence in Portland that was alluded to in the Fox article. Haven’t seen anything even relatively close with Obama so far.

87 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:32:36am

re: #79 Sharmuta

What makes you think they're not the same people? What's the difference between a "compassionate conservative" increasing social spending and a democrat doing the same thing?

Good point.

And that label always has implied that a libertarian Republican is somehow not compassionate.

Taxpayers straddled with a huge and growing national debt and an unattended entitlements crisis need some compassion. They get none - just more obligations to fund.

88 Achilles Tang  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:32:52am

re: #55 Ben Hur

There was no hate before Obama.

Where were you; before Obama? /

89 Dreader1962  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:33:00am

re: #78 Spare O'Lake

"One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." - yeah, Harry, that's terrible isn't it?

Judging from the pictures in the linked article, Harry equates the town-hall protests with Islamofascist rage-boy demonstrations.
Screw Harry's Islamophobic ass.

It's not the Pledge, it's one person bringing the meeting to a halt to demand that everyone recite it to 'prove' their patriotism.

I happen to agree with what he is saying, and I've rendered honors to the flag for quite a while (and voluntarily). The specter of this being forced upon people gets my hackles up.

90 Shug  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:33:03am

( say in extremely shrill creaming voice )

I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say, "We are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration!"

HRC---then. not now

91 The Left  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:33:13am

re: #78 Spare O'Lake

"One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." - yeah, Harry, that's terrible isn't it?

Judging from the pictures in the linked article, Harry equates the town-hall protests with Islamofascist rage-boy demonstrations.
Screw Harry's Islamophobic ass.

Some of the Townhall activity has a very Orwellian flavour, in the sense that it's about having the Two-Minute Hate.

Some of them involve chants of the pledge and chasing representatives to their cars while screaming and chanting the pledge of allegiance. And I do find that very frightening.

92 medaura18586  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:33:27am

re: #73 Wendya

Haven't you heard? We were put on this Earth in order to help each-other.

/barf

93 Spenser (with an S)  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:33:29am

re: #75 BLBfootballs

I'm totally lost on where he gets the "gay bashing" charge from.

No idea, unless it's gay marriage. Barak O is also very much against gay marriage, IIRC.

94 theheat  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:33:36am

re: #19 Sharmuta

What the right wing pundits have been shouting about is that the GOP lost because it had abandoned its conservative principles (RHINO alert). Partially, that is correct. By spending like Democrats and behaving badly, the GOP pissed off mainstream middle America.

Unfortunately, when they say get back to conservative values, they mean socon values. That's what they really mean. They honestly can look around, and believe the way to woo people is to behave like a bunch of hyperventilating theocratic socons. That's what they think America wants, and that's what they think will win elections. If we could all just get on board with that...

You have to wonder, what is the color of the sky in their world.

When and if the GOP loses again, it will be tragically comic to listen to another 4 years of right wing airbags bleating, "We need to just get back to acting like conservatives socons."

Pssst - socons ain't so popular. Maybe someone should clue them in.

What America wants is a better plan and better leadership. When the GOP can figure that out without all the extra crazy shit heaped on top, they'll win again.

95 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:33:56am

re: #84 Thanos

Red Ryder used to be the lead result when you searched on "Lunatic Fringe" at youtube, now it's Glen Beck instead.


[Video]

Going to Itunes to download right now. A little Aldo Nova as well.

96 jpkoch  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:33:56am

re: #29 karmic_inquisitor

And who would those Moderate/Fiscal Conservatives be?

Chuck Hegel?
Lincoln Chaffee?
Elizabeth Dole?
Rep Shays?
Rep Delay?
Rep Foley?
Rep Hastert?

Bush domestically was a moderate. And he passed some very progressive legislation with the full support of all of the moderates. IN the end, he ran up over $2 trillion of defecits. And by 2007, the GOP was a minority party. Yet, you blame "conservatives" for the defeat of moderates Republicans.

Speaker Hastert and Sen Thomps
The Moderates

97 medaura18586  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:34:22am

re: #87 karmic_inquisitor

Good point.

And that label always has implied that a libertarian Republican is somehow not compassionate.

Taxpayers straddled with a huge and growing national debt and an unattended entitlements crisis need some compassion. They get none - just more obligations to fund.

Future generations need some compassion too. Newborns come to this world with nearly 100K in debt.

98 wrenchwench  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:34:43am

re: #80 korla pundit

The party needs to redefine itself, and devise a solid WRITTEN platform of basic core principles that the majority of members approve, which it will then defend in Congress without compromise, and anybody who wants to be a party member should be held to it.

There is not, and as far as I know, never has been any means available to do that.

99 Shug  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:35:14am

re: #97 medaura18586

Future generations need some compassion too. Newborns come to this world with nearly 100K in debt.

95 % of them owe nothing

the remaining babies owe a couple of million bucks each

100 The Left  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:35:15am

re: #84 Thanos

Red Ryder used to be the lead result when you searched on "Lunatic Fringe" at youtube,

Damn. I thought it was a BB gun. :(

A Red Ryder carbine-action, two hundred shot Range Model air rifle with a compass in the stock and a thing which tells time.

101 mr.JA  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:35:17am

re: #4 NukeAtomrod

An understandable opinion from someone that only knows America from what he sees on TV.

Erm, I don't know where you live, but I for one am perfectly able to understand America while not living there. TV is not the only thing you know, there's this magic thing called the internet.
Besides, America is in our headlines every-single-day, and there are a lot of American channels broadcasted here.

Anyway, interesting article, and I really hope the rational people can take the party on a lead.

102 Wendya  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:35:29am

re: #35 JammieWearingFool

According to the generic Congressional ballot from Rasmussen, the GOP leads over Democrats by five points currently (about a 12-point swing from last November), the GOP leads big in both Virginia and NJ, states Obama carried, Obama is cratering in polls, his policies are widely disliked and Democrats are in full panic.

But it's the GOP that has problems, I guess.

The GOP does have problems. They're being shut out of the process and they are having a difficult time getting their message out since the media doesn't feel it's "news" unless Sarah Palin opens her mouth or someone shouts at a town hall meeting. They need to spend their own money and buy airtime instead of sitting on their asses waiting for reporters to come calling.

103 cronus  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:35:47am

I'm certainly pissed about all the folks working over time for martyr cookies at these townhalls...but I also know the R's will pickup seats and maybe a lot of seats in 2010. Opposition party usually does in non-presidential cycles. What happens after that is anyone's guess. Remember how Bill Clinton was supposedly finished after 1994?

But I personally would really like to rally behind leaders who could articulate an actual vision for governance and not just simply ride a waive of dissent and dissatisfaction. This is not 1994 when R's had been largely in the minority for decades. We controlled everything three years ago and were not exactly knocking the ball out the park.

104 medaura18586  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:35:55am

re: #99 Shug

95 % of them owe nothing

the remaining babies owe a couple of million bucks each

They better be worth a million bucks when the bill comes due.

105 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:35:58am

My cousin e-mailed me a link to an article about Robert Hill, the head of the Democratic Party in that neck of the woods, calling Young Republicans a bunch of brownshirts when trying to defend Congressman Tanner for not holding town-hall meetings as he had in the past.

Congressman Tanner is refusing to apologize or even address this issue, claiming he is above all that.

Hill is a senior partner in a plaintiff's firm, you know--the ones against addressing health-care costs throug tort reform.

I'd post the link but I'm off to a salon appointment in a few minutes. Google Tanner and Hill.

Have a great afternoon, Lizards!

106 Shug  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:36:00am

re: #101 mr.JA

...

updinged for keeping it pithy

107 Kenneth  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:36:44am

Does anybody recall moderate Democrats condemning the demagoguery, the hate-filled angry protests & excessive Bush-bashing of yesteryear?

I would love to find just one link to an example of such moderate self-restraint, but alas, I can find none.

108 CommonCents  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:37:20am

re: #17 Thanos

There was a lot of internecine warfare in the left 2003-2005, the media is certainly not going to highlight it unless it becomes unavoidable - one example where that occurred was when DKOS went after Lieberman.

I don't think that qualifies as an example of what #7 arf was getting at. DKOS attacking Lieberman was not because Lieberman was bordering on insane but that he ventured to far towards center politics for their wacky taste.

109 Cato the Elder  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:37:25am

re: #77 Spenser (with an S)

UhOh... that sounds Ad Hominem.

That's how it was meant.

110 shortshrift  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:37:37am

re: #62 Sharmuta

Sorry- blaming teh eeevil left! is standard fare from the house of horowitz. You're just a victim and nothing you do is ever wrong. I'm not interested in wallowing in victimhood, but knock yourself out.

This is not a fair reading of the article.
It does not offer conservative victimhood as an exculpation. Quite the reverse. It is demonstrating that the left is portraying the right as victimizer in order to claim victimhood so that the left is exculpated.
Victimhood -as- exculpation has never been part of the political philosophy of the right. It is central to that of the left.

111 Ben Hur  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:37:55am

re: #107 Kenneth

Does anybody recall moderate Democrats condemning the demagoguery, the hate-filled angry protests & excessive Bush-bashing of yesteryear?

I would love to find just one link to an example of such moderate self-restraint, but alas, I can find none.

No.

They put the fat one in the seat of honor at the Dem Convention.

112 Occasional Reader  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:38:06am

Those demanding that everyone recite the Pledge (to "prove" something), come across like they've been huffing Lemon Pledge.

Definitely not a good face to present to the electorate.

That said, there is plenty to be, ah, concerned about with this administration, and we need to be vigilant that intelligent conservative criticism is not simply dismissed as "those right-wing nuts", with the witting or unwitting collusion of self-declared conservatives.

113 Gus  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:38:13am

re: #33 Infidel

Such an exercise in subjectivism. Why should any American concerned with his nation's future care what some bloke in England thinks on how he exercise my rights. I will continue to petition my elected officials. If said officials have demonstrated by their actions to be a menace to my life, liberty and property, I'll be civil, but not silenced.

Interesting links you have at your blog. Let's see, you link to:

> Little Green Footballs 2.0 <
The Brussels Journal
Jihad Watch
Gates of Vienna

114 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:38:39am

re: #87 karmic_inquisitor

Good point.

And that label always has implied that a libertarian Republican is somehow not compassionate.

Taxpayers straddled with a huge and growing national debt and an unattended entitlements crisis need some compassion. They get none - just more obligations to fund.

I think it's precisely because republicans started spending money like democrats that we lost both houses and the WH. People always say that line about "If you're going to be democrat-lite people will vote for the real thing". Guess what? They did! But the right still can't figure out the problem. I've said it over and over- they spent like Democrats!

I'm sick of social "compassionate" conservatives who want to shove a Bible in my face and spend money like a drunken sailor calling me a RINO. I don't know how they work up the guts to say they're for limited government when this is their public record. Nervy at best, hypocritical at worst.

115 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:38:58am

re: #96 jpkoch

And who would those Moderate/Fiscal Conservatives be?

Chuck Hegel?
Lincoln Chaffee?
Elizabeth Dole?
Rep Shays?
Rep Delay?
Rep Foley?
Rep Hastert?

Bush domestically was a moderate. And he passed some very progressive legislation with the full support of all of the moderates. IN the end, he ran up over $2 trillion of defecits. And by 2007, the GOP was a minority party. Yet, you blame "conservatives" for the defeat of moderates Republicans.

Speaker Hastert and Sen Thomps
The Moderates

Boy. You just opened my eyes.

The RINOs are to blame!

I had not heard that before! Ever!

I feel cleansed! Renewed! Refreshed!

Makes me want to pick up a pitchfork and a torch and go seek out the weak minded among the "R"s and send them packing!

Then again, I could pull out the Clue Bat and point out that political parties in the United States happen to be coalitions. And that coalitions can only work if they represent a broad base of differing interests with members ready to compromise to expand that base.

It was once called "Big Tent"

Now it is a revival tent. But at least it is purged of the likes of Mark Foley!

Hallelujah!

116 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:39:04am

re: #83 Infidel

Listen, I consider myself solidly to the right. But on the surface, hearing what that person did at Castle's meeting was way off base.

If the issue of the day is health care, she is bringing in birth certificate, and making an issue about reciting the Pledge, I would have no problem having her carted off.

It is all about context.

I think both sides are playing out here. But in all honesty, I really could not picture President Reagan tolerating this either. As a leader, he would have addressed it, and dealt with it.

117 drcordell  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:39:06am

re: #102 Wendya

The GOP does have problems. They're being shut out of the process and they are having a difficult time getting their message out since the media doesn't feel it's "news" unless Sarah Palin opens her mouth or someone shouts at a town hall meeting. They need to spend their own money and buy airtime instead of sitting on their asses waiting for reporters to come calling.

Ah the media, reliable scapegoat for GOP shortcomings since 1974.

118 Occasional Reader  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:39:16am

re: #87 karmic_inquisitor

Good point.

And that label always has implied that a libertarian Republican is somehow not compassionate.

Taxpayers straddled with a huge and growing national debt and an unattended entitlements crisis need some compassion. They get none - just more obligations to fund.

Good post. (You meant "saddled", of course.)

119 korla pundit  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:39:26am

re: #98 wrenchwench

There is not, and as far as I know, never has been any means available to do that.

There used to be a thing called "public shame." Congress could use a steaming mug of it now and again.

120 Ben Hur  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:39:45am

re: #109 Cato the Elder

That's how it was meant.

Again, your're pretty tough sittiing at home.

Make it to Manhattan or Tel Aviv much?

121 blangwort  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:39:46am

I have a problem here.

Does anyone have the intestinal fortitude to actually read and comprehend this bill? Does anyone really know what is in it?

All I've heard are platitudes. I don't know what is in this bill, but I do know a ram-rod issue when I see one. Anyone who isn't scared and offended doesn't realize what the Democrat part is trying to do here.

People are angry because they see a bunch of fat cat interest groups bellying up to the feeding trough, and they are being sidelined.

122 Wendya  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:40:01am

re: #79 Sharmuta

What makes you think they're not the same people? What's the difference between a "compassionate conservative" increasing social spending and a democrat doing the same thing?

I was referring to people on the right.

If you want to be compassionate, use your own money.

123 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:40:17am

re: #94 theheat

Pssst - socons ain't so popular. Maybe someone should clue them in.

Many have tried. All get demonized.

124 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:40:30am

re: #118 Occasional Reader

Good post. (You meant "saddled", of course.)

I don't know . . sometimes it sure seems like Uncle Sam is bending me over for a good straddling/

125 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:41:03am

re: #35 JammieWearingFool

According to the generic Congressional ballot from Rasmussen, the GOP leads over Democrats by five points currently (about a 12-point swing from last November), the GOP leads big in both Virginia and NJ, states Obama carried, Obama is cratering in polls, his policies are widely disliked and Democrats are in full panic.

But it's the GOP that has problems, I guess.

Can't ignore our problems even if the Democrats shoot themselves in the foot, as we can't always count on that. Nice to see Obama heading into "liability" status however. Will we see Dem legislators distancing themselves from him at some point? That would be shadenfreudelicious.

126 Occasional Reader  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:41:07am

Ben Hur and Cato, please take it offline, guys.

127 jpkoch  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:41:21am

re: #103 cronus
Three years ago, under the GOP leadership we saw the Federal Defecit balloon. Perhaps the GOP survivors from the last 2 election cycles are so dimwitted, they can't see an oppurtunity when it hits them in the face. Perhaps these GOP politicians only care about the power, prestige, and money that thier seats give them.

128 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:41:28am

re: #114 Sharmuta

I think it's precisely because republicans started spending money like democrats that we lost both houses and the WH. People always say that line about "If you're going to be democrat-lite people will vote for the real thing". Guess what? They did! But the right still can't figure out the problem. I've said it over and over- they spent like Democrats!

I'm sick of social "compassionate" conservatives who want to shove a Bible in my face and spend money like a drunken sailor calling me a RINO. I don't know how they work up the guts to say they're for limited government when this is their public record. Nervy at best, hypocritical at worst.

Mike Hukabee.

Conservative in only one dimension - socially.

But that is the only one that counts.

129 BlueCanuck  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:41:28am

re: #92 medaura18586

Haven't you heard? We were put on this Earth in order to help each-other.

/barf

Sounds suspicously like a rant from a movie. Don't know the name off hand, but I have heard the clip in an industrial tune.

/"Mr. Sealy, you don't look well. Maybe a vacation in California..."
//World War 2 type film

130 Ben Hur  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:41:33am

re: #126 Occasional Reader

Ben Hur and Cato, please take it offline, guys.

No.

It's enough.

131 theheat  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:41:37am

re: #123 Sharmuta

I suppose I'm remanded to doing impersonations of them at the kitchen table. At least no one will chase me with pitchforks and lanterns.

132 Cato the Elder  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:41:42am

re: #126 Occasional Reader

Done. That is, I am.

133 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:41:57am

re: #118 Occasional Reader

ooops.

134 drcordell  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:42:07am

re: #114 Sharmuta

I think it's precisely because republicans started spending money like democrats that we lost both houses and the WH. People always say that line about "If you're going to be democrat-lite people will vote for the real thing". Guess what? They did! But the right still can't figure out the problem. I've said it over and over- they spent like Democrats!

I'm sick of social "compassionate" conservatives who want to shove a Bible in my face and spend money like a drunken sailor calling me a RINO. I don't know how they work up the guts to say they're for limited government when this is their public record. Nervy at best, hypocritical at worst.

At what point does "spending like a Democrat" turn into "spending like a Republican?" Reagan and Bush each ran humongous deficits, while simultaneously expanding the size of the federal government. Clinton ran a surplus, while simultaneously shrinking the federal government payroll by 300,000 people. Then W came into office and ran the largest deficits ever recorded, in addition to expanding the federal gov't more than anyone in history. Why is it "spending like a Democrat"?

135 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:42:29am

re: #113 Gus 802

Interesting links you have at your blog. Let's see, you link to:

> Little Green Footballs 2.0 <
The Brussels Journal
Jihad Watch
Gates of Vienna

Very interesting links that "Infidel" has indeed. I see fascist sympathizers at four of them, as well as "kill them all" types. Very interesting indeed. Infidel, why do you link to such sites?

136 Killian Bundy  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:42:30am

Rep. Green to require photo ID at town halls

A Texas congressman, worried about disruptions at his town halls, wants to weed out people who want to attend but don't live in his district.

Rep. Gene Green (D-Texas) has announced on his website that he will require attendees to show photo identification to get into his town halls to prove that they're his constituents. He said that he's doing so in response to a "coordinated effort to disrupt our town hall meetings."

. . .

His decision drew derision from Republicans who noted that he voted against a Republican amendment that would have required Medicaid recipients to prove they are citizens by showing photo ID.

"It’s just a tad ironic that while Congressman Green forces his own constituents to produce photo ID simply to attend a town hall meeting, he doesn’t feel it necessary that people who receive government subsidies should do the same,” said Brad Dayspring, spokesman for House Minority Whip Eric Cantor (R-Va.).

/heh

137 debutaunt  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:42:33am

re: #112 Occasional Reader

Those demanding that everyone recite the Pledge (to "prove" something), come across like they've been huffing Lemon Pledge.

Definitely not a good face to present to the electorate.

That said, there is plenty to be, ah, concerned about with this administration, and we need to be vigilant that intelligent conservative criticism is not simply dismissed as "those right-wing nuts", with the witting or unwitting collusion of self-declared conservatives.

It's a floor wax and a brain destroyer!

138 Randall Gross  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:42:53am

re: #108 CommonCents

I don't think that qualifies as an example of what #7 arf was getting at. DKOS attacking Lieberman was not because Lieberman was bordering on insane but that he ventured to far towards center politics for their wacky taste.

I didn't say Lieberman is insane. I'm talking about DKOS

139 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:43:08am

re: #112 Occasional Reader

...we need to be vigilant that intelligent conservative criticism is not simply dismissed as "those right-wing nuts", with the witting or unwitting collusion of self-declared conservatives.

You have, I believe, accurately described the Dem/MSM strategy. It is how they hope to deflect criticism of their plummeting popularity in the polls and their inability to govern effectively notwithstanding their control of both houses and the executive branch.

140 Dreader1962  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:43:16am

re: #121 blangwort

I have a problem here.

Does anyone have the intestinal fortitude to actually read and comprehend this bill? Does anyone really know what is in it?

I've skimmed portions; one would have to work full-time to actually grasp it in its entirety.

One aspect of the bill that I noticed that hasn't been discussed (anywhere that I have seen) is the frequent amendments to other existing laws by dictate of edits. An example of this is directing the word 'and' be removed from the end of paragraphs, removing semicolons, inserting the word 'or', and so on. This could be radically changing existing law and the only way to detect it would be to apply the edits and then review the changed law to see what impact it will have.

141 Dreader1962  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:43:53am

re: #124 Creeping Eruption

I don't know . . sometimes it sure seems like Uncle Sam is bending me over for a good straddling/

... teabagging?

No, forget it - I didn't say that!

142 Charles Johnson  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:44:03am

re: #113 Gus 802

Interesting links you have at your blog. Let's see, you link to:

> Little Green Footballs 2.0 <
The Brussels Journal
Jihad Watch
Gates of Vienna

Thanks for pointing that out. Explains quite a bit.

143 Kenneth  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:44:05am

re: #111 Ben Hur

No.

They put the fat one in the seat of honor at the Dem Convention.

I remember that. Moore sat next to some nasty shriveled old anti-Semite.

144 Gus  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:44:08am

re: #135 Honorary Yooper

Very interesting links that "Infidel" has indeed. I see fascist sympathizers at four of them, as well as "kill them all" types. Very interesting indeed. Infidel, why do you link to such sites?

Yeah, I just got curious. The fact that he links to these says a lot. Especially the first one I mentioned.

145 Cato the Elder  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:44:17am

Pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth is like checking your brain at the door. What, I'm to follow the flag no matter what mad idiot may hold it? Over the top and into the steel rain? For just any old thing?

"My country, right or wrong is a thing no patriot would ever think of saying... It is like saying 'My mother, drunk or sober.'"

--G.K. Chesterton

146 Shug  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:44:25am

SWEEET !


re: #136 Killian Bundy

Rep. Green to require photo ID at town halls


/heh

147 Gus  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:44:25am

re: #142 Charles

Thanks for pointing that out. Explains quite a bit.

Indeed!

148 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:44:54am

I am giving myself a timeout.

I invested too much time in the Republican Party in California just to see some whacked out SoCons take it over and drive it into the ground. And it gets to happen all over again.

I can't be dispassionate about it.

149 jpkoch  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:45:04am

re: #115 karmic_inquisitor


Come-on Karmic! These people all lost their seats the last 2 election cycles. Yet, you blame the conservatives? These people were as about as well connected to the RNC money machine as anyone was circa 2006-2008. If these Moderates were so well liked and respected why did they lose and/or retire?

150 Occasional Reader  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:45:28am

re: #137 debutaunt

It's a floor wax and a brain destroyer!

I Pine for the days when we could Sol-ve our problems more amicably.

151 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:45:38am

re: #107 Kenneth

To be fair Kenneth, I do remember some perhaps not squashing their own lunatics directly, but IIRC, Evan Bayhe? (sp) was pretty vocal about needing to provide more verbal support for the troops while they were in conflict.

I don't have a link, I am pretty sure this did happen though.

152 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:45:47am

re: #8 Honorary Yooper

Oddly enough, we've been here before during the 1930s. The right in the US got so hung up on isolationism and opposing FDR that they ran on simply not being FDR. They lost.

heh
Excellent point

153 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:45:57am

re: #134 drcordell

At what point does "spending like a Democrat" turn into "spending like a Republican?" Reagan and Bush each ran humongous deficits, while simultaneously expanding the size of the federal government. Clinton ran a surplus, while simultaneously shrinking the federal government payroll by 300,000 people. Then W came into office and ran the largest deficits ever recorded, in addition to expanding the federal gov't more than anyone in history. Why is it "spending like a Democrat"?

Senator Goldwater himself lamented big spending republicans. I think perhaps it's a general thing- politicians, regardless of party, will at some point get drunk off spending the public's money. Very few have fiscal principles and stand on them consistently.

154 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:46:27am

re: #111 Ben Hur

Yes, that infuriated me. Next to a former President.

155 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:47:17am

re: #141 Dreader1962

... teabagging?

No, forget it - I didn't say that!

Uncle Sam can multi- task when sticking it to us.

156 bj1126  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:47:27am

I gotta say I'm pretty bothered by the idea of "controlling the base". Disassociate yourself with them all you want but it's not anyone's place to control them. Good portion of them are Ron Paul wackos anyways.

Both sides have their share of fringe crazies. The difference is ours are self funded and theirs get their money from Soros. :P

157 Occasional Reader  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:47:32am

re: #130 Ben Hur

No.

It's enough.

Dude... you're former IDF, in your, what, 30s? And Cato is, IIRC, in his 70s. I don't think anyone's questioning who would win the fistfight. But it's just not appropriate fodder for an LGF thread, IMHO.

158 itellu3times  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:47:57am

re: #5 Killgore Trout

Rational voices are no longer welcome on the right.

Name one.

I think it's just marketing trends have gone against the GOP.

You have to be positive and sexy, in today's media world, to win.

But the conservative metaphysics is to preserve, and that does not read as positive, and is very hard to present as sexy when the opposition is promising bread and circuses.

That, and the failures of the US educational system over the last thirty years are coming back to bite us on the ass.

We just can't outcompete bread and circuses, that's the problem.

159 Ben Hur  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:48:12am

re: #157 Occasional Reader

Dude... you're former IDF, in your, what, 30s? And Cato is, IIRC, in his 70s. I don't think anyone's questioning who would win the fistfight. But it's just not appropriate fodder for an LGF thread, IMHO.

It's done.

160 Occasional Reader  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:48:24am

re: #154 formercorpsman

Yes, that infuriated me. Next to a former President.

To be fair... if they had to pick one former President to put him next to, they sure picked the right one.

161 Kenneth  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:48:40am

re: #134 drcordell

You have seen this graph , right?

162 medaura18586  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:49:00am

re: #158 itellu3times

They don't have the faintest clue as to what they've set out to preserve.

163 drcordell  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:49:19am

re: #149 jpkoch

Come-on Karmic! These people all lost their seats the last 2 election cycles. Yet, you blame the conservatives? These people were as about as well connected to the RNC money machine as anyone was circa 2006-2008. If these Moderates were so well liked and respected why did they lose and/or retire?

It seems to me that the moderates all lost their seats precisely because of this wingnut pandering that is currently underway. Primary voters tend to be the most ideologically extreme, and these days it's pretty easy to use the internet to mount a successful primary challenge with little cash on hand. Moderate Republicans just can't gin up enough support amongst moderate voters to win primaries.

164 Dianna  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:49:23am

OT: This really did make me laugh out loud.

Home Security

165 Rexatosis  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:49:33am

You want to see democracy in action go to a local town council meeting when a controversial topic is being discussed, you'll see some inarticulate, nasty, off-topic rants from both sides of the aisle. This has been going on in New England for 100's of years. If you put a selection of these rants on YouTube you could get the same crap the MSM and political websites are foisting up right now as the end of the Republican Party and the end of democracy. Sorry to bust anyone's bubble but this is Democracy in action, it's rude, crude, stupid, inarticulate, often not the type of discussion one would have while sipping tea but it is certainly (to quote WSC) "better than the alternative."

I really like Charles' site here but given the "blue blood" reaction to the current political debate I really wonder how many of those on this blog have actually gotten off the fucking computer and the virtual world and been to a real down low, drag out, filled to the breaking point, hotter and more humid than hell, over stuffed local town meeting over a controversial budget impass, zoning, or whatever issue.

Shit in Asian the legislators actually duke it the hell out.

Down ding if you want I don't give a shit.

166 The Left  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:49:38am

re: #113 Gus 802

Interesting links you have at your blog. Let's see, you link to:

> Little Green Footballs 2.0 <
The Brussels Journal
Jihad Watch
Gates of Vienna

What. A. Shock.

///

167 debutaunt  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:49:54am

re: #150 Occasional Reader

I Pine for the days when we could Sol-ve our problems more amicably.

Try to be of good Cheer.

168 dadaist  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:50:05am

I think that there are two separate processes going on here.

1) The Democrats are self-destructing. Like everywhere else, this is a tough time to be in government. And as in most countries the governing party is finding it tough to maintain popularity. This is compounded by the current administration's big talk about "change" immediately preceeding what has so far been a rather muddled and less than competent period in charge. All other things being equal, the opposition party should be gaining right now.

2) The Republicans are going stark raving mad. Not all of them. Not even most of them. But a very sizeable swathe of the base is currently foaming at the mouth and the people in charge, who should be reigning in the nutcases are pandering to them. For some of them it might be because they actually agree with the crazies. For others this is cowardice - Republican politicians have to win primary votes and the primary electorate is often skewed to the right of the party. That's a problem that feeds on itself - the further right the party goes, the less moderate conservatives and centrists feel comfortable in it it. The more moderates leave, the more right wing the base and the primary electorates become. The more extreme the base the more would be primary winners have to pander to that.

The result of these two parallel processes are hard to predict. At the moment the Republicans are gaining in the polls, but not by enough to even get close to regaining control of either the House or the Senate. It could go either way - will the inept policies of the Obama administration or the frothing rage of the Republican Party drive people away faster? And for the rest of us, the temptation to go on a decade long world tour until one or both parties recover their bearings gets stronger every day.

169 NukeAtomrod  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:50:11am

re: #25 Killgore Trout

It's a little tough to compare but I'm starting to think the right is worse today than the left was last year. There is a very real possibility we're going to see a wave of right wing politically inspired terrorism or assassinations. Rhetoric couldn't possibly get more extreme, people are frightened and confused by conspiracy theories. How Air commenters are talking right now about how the rise in anti-government militias are really "freedom fighters".
I really can't recall being so concerned about political violence before.

You know, after the appalling treatment the Left and the media gave Bush for the last 8 years, I'm very much inoculated to partisan political insanity. It's going to take a lot more than some senior citizens raising their voices at their congressmen to find any equivalence in these events.

The Paulians and LaRouchians are nuts, but at least their craziness is not being supported by the media 24/7. If only the 9/11 Truthers had been invited to Chris Mathews show the first day they started spouting their nonsense and been ridiculed (like that gun-toting idiot from yesterdays town hall) that craziness might have been nipped in the bud.

170 Kenneth  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:50:27am

re: #145 Cato the Elder

"I pledge allegiance to this flag and to the republic for which it stands..."

I believe the second half of that sentence is the important part, in case you missed the point.

171 Gus  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:50:36am

re: #166 iceweasel

What. A. Shock.

///

Surprise, surprise...

//Gomer Pyle voice.

/

172 Spenser (with an S)  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:50:40am

re: #121 blangwort

3 Wood is working his way through it and has posted lots. It's frightening and wrong, IMO.

173 Occasional Reader  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:50:46am

re: #161 Kenneth

You have seen this graph , right?

Heh. The tu quoque argument doesn't work so well, when your guy has out-quoqued his political opponent's quoque, big time.

/my 8th Grade Latin teacher is silently weeping somewhere

174 itellu3times  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:50:49am

re: #134 drcordell

At what point does "spending like a Democrat" turn into "spending like a Republican?" Reagan and Bush each ran humongous deficits, while simultaneously expanding the size of the federal government. Clinton ran a surplus, while simultaneously shrinking the federal government payroll by 300,000 people. Then W came into office and ran the largest deficits ever recorded, in addition to expanding the federal gov't more than anyone in history. Why is it "spending like a Democrat"?

Cuz Bush's records will all be eclipsed this year.

175 BlueCanuck  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:50:56am

re: #134 drcordell

IIRC the term was started by when Democrats did it over the top. Of course when a Republican, or in our case up here conservative, does it their base gets ticked. One of our big spending conservative governments got the boot hard core. The down side was that we paid for it with a split right and Liberal governments till the right got their act together. Actually we are still paying for it with a minority government.

/and lying Liberals...

176 cronus  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:51:10am

re: #127 jpkoch

Three years ago, under the GOP leadership we saw the Federal Defecit balloon. Perhaps the GOP survivors from the last 2 election cycles are so dimwitted, they can't see an oppurtunity when it hits them in the face. Perhaps these GOP politicians only care about the power, prestige, and money that thier seats give them.

We did see the deficit balloon under R's..and now it has exploded under D's. For those that don't vote on social issues the fiscal restraint and adult-driven foreign policy platform that was supposed to be the bread and butter of my party constitute the only rationale for swing voters to support Republicans. It would seem that Dem leadership has provided serious Republicans an ample opportunity to reset their image in the minds of voters. Whether or not we capitalize on it remains to be seen.

177 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:51:11am

re: #13 Charles

Harry's Place links to this article at the Times Online by David Aaronovitch: Obama gives birth to genuine hatred.

Interesting column.
/Looks like something of a Mercutio moment.

178 blangwort  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:51:46am

re: #140 Dreader1962

...And when I see stuff like that, I get suspicious and angry.

It's not that I like the health care system we have now, but I don't think these people are taking the time to do this in an open, reasonable way. Town hall meetings don't cut it.

179 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:51:49am

re: #160 Occasional Reader

I understand. I am probably thinking more about the office.

180 theheat  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:52:03am

re: #134 drcordell

Yeah, but Clinton killed, like, 60 people to accomplish that. Vince Foster...

//

181 reine.de.tout  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:52:09am

re: #92 medaura18586

Haven't you heard? We were put on this Earth in order to help each-other.

/barf

I can't help but wonder why somewhere in that post as to the "reason why we're here", there's not some mention of a person's responsibility to take care of himself.

182 Occasional Reader  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:52:11am

re: #167 debutaunt

Try to be of good Cheer.

Posting is easy; Comet-y is hard.

183 drcordell  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:52:24am

re: #161 Kenneth

You have seen this graph , right?

Right. But how much of that spending did Obama have a hand in creating. He inherited two costly wars, neither of which were his doing. He inherited the bailout package that was begun by his predecessor. He inherited the MASSIVE medicare prescription entitlement, that was completely unfunded. Oh, and he also inherited the greatest economic crisis since the Great Depression.

I'm not saying that graph isn't accurate, but even if Obama didn't propose a single new spending initiative, he would have inherited one of the largest deficits in history by default. It's intellectually dishonest to attempt to pin the entire budget crisis on a guy who has been in office all of 7 months.

184 Killian Bundy  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:52:27am

re: #174 itellu3times

Cuz Bush's records will all be eclipsed this year.

/Obama's already shattered the record in his first six months

185 Dianna  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:52:46am

re: #165 Rexatosis

You have a point. But...I still don't like it.

186 Kenneth  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:53:04am

re: #151 formercorpsman

Yes, and Bill Clinton told some 9-11 troofers to shut up. But I don't recall anybody telling their Democratic Party colleagues to show President Bush a little bit of respect. The hate was on and it was ok back then.

187 Occasional Reader  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:53:28am

re: #170 Kenneth

"I pledge allegiance to this flag and to the republic for which it stands..."

I believe the second half of that sentence is the important part, in case you missed the point.

Actually, the important part is, "one nation, under God, invisible...". Which taught us, back in kindergarten, that God is invisible.

188 drcordell  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:53:37am

re: #184 Killian Bundy

/Obama's already shattered the record in his first six months

See the above post. Obama inherited 95% of that spending. He couldn't get rid of it if he tried.

189 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:54:03am

re: #149 jpkoch

Come-on Karmic! These people all lost their seats the last 2 election cycles. Yet, you blame the conservatives? These people were as about as well connected to the RNC money machine as anyone was circa 2006-2008. If these Moderates were so well liked and respected why did they lose and/or retire?

One more.

Clue Bat.

Coalition.

Not every district is composed of mind slaves that are party fanatics. There actually are people out there who will vote for a different party from time to time. And people who are elected in such districts are always going to have to broaden their appeal.

Such districts are always called marginal districts.

And when your party proves ineffective at delivering what little appeal you offer (and for independents, Republicans once offered fiscal conservatism - if you are a SoCon, you probably are a Republican), you get the boot.

Shrink a coalition and you lose power. It really is that simple.

190 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:54:03am

re: #182 Occasional Reader

Posting is easy; Comet-y is hard.

Look out, someone will Downy ding you for such a bad pun

191 Kenneth  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:54:06am

re: #173 Occasional Reader

Heh. The tu quoque argument doesn't work so well, when your guy has out-quoqued his political opponent's quoque, big time.

Dude, I'm not at all comfortable with all that talk about cock, ok?

192 Gus  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:54:38am

re: #187 Occasional Reader

Actually, the important part is, "one nation, under God, invisible...". Which taught us, back in kindergarten, that God is invisible.

Indivisible ;)

193 jpkoch  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:54:47am

re: #163 drcordell

But very few of those I cited were challanged in thier districts or states. Most of them won quite easily.

But to be fair, I could have also cited Tom Delay or Duke Cunningham. The former was too cozy with lobbyist, and the other is now a convicted felon. No one misses these 2 conservatives.

194 BlueCanuck  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:55:05am

re: #188 drcordell

See the above post. Obama inherited 95% of that spending. He couldn't get rid of it if he tried.

Well didn't he vote for the spending plan that was first created? Or did he pick "present"?

195 Killian Bundy  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:55:26am

re: #188 drcordell

See the above post. Obama inherited 95% of that spending. He couldn't get rid of it if he tried.

/um, his stupid "stimulus", with interest, doubled the Bush deficit all by itself

196 NukeAtomrod  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:55:46am

re: #134 drcordell

At what point does "spending like a Democrat" turn into "spending like a Republican?" Reagan and Bush each ran humongous deficits, while simultaneously expanding the size of the federal government. Clinton ran a surplus, while simultaneously shrinking the federal government payroll by 300,000 people. Then W came into office and ran the largest deficits ever recorded, in addition to expanding the federal gov't more than anyone in history. Why is it "spending like a Democrat"?

How much did Obama's stimulus package cost again? How much did he raise the deficit? Contrast and compare.

197 Occasional Reader  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:56:03am

re: #192 Gus 802

Indivisible ;)

Damn!

Next you're gonna tell me there's no such letter as "elemeno"! (It's right there in the alphabet song, so it must exist.)

198 debutaunt  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:56:06am

re: #182 Occasional Reader

Posting is easy; Comet-y is hard.

Does it give you great joy to say that?

199 turn  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:56:13am

re: #190 Creeping Eruption

Look out, someone will Downy ding you for such a bad pun

Yeah, it was a lemon for sure. Hey what's with this pledge of allegiance brew ha ha CE?

200 Wendya  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:56:56am

re: #117 drcordell

Ah the media, reliable scapegoat for GOP shortcomings since 1974.

I guess in your fit of indignation, you missed the part where I said the right needs to get their message out on their own dime instead of sitting on their asses waiting for the media to do it.

201 Gus  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:56:56am

re: #197 Occasional Reader

Damn!

Next you're gonna tell me there's no such letter as "elemeno"! (It's right there in the alphabet song, so it must exist.)

It's not? /

Qwert! /

202 Digital Display  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:57:13am

re: #157 Occasional Reader

Dude... you're former IDF, in your, what, 30s? And Cato is, IIRC, in his 70s. I don't think anyone's questioning who would win the fistfight. But it's just not appropriate fodder for an LGF thread, IMHO.

I've been reading here for a long time..Only posting for a year...
You Occasional Reader have always had my deepest respect...
Kind Regards...And as always best of luck

203 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:57:21am

re: #186 Kenneth

I am not disagreeing much with your point. I was trying to show there were some who spoke out.

Certainly, not enough though. The General Betray-Us ads, etc.

I know some people would like to think it was never that bad with base on their side. It was.

204 drcordell  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:57:40am

re: #194 BlueCanuck

Well didn't he vote for the spending plan that was first created? Or did he pick "present"?

You're right. Obama had the choice of completely cutting off funding for both wars. He had the choice of repealing the unfunded Bush medicare prescription benefit. He had the choice of canceling the bailout package and letting the banking system potentially implode. He could simply refuse to sign the budget.

Have the past 8 years already gone completely down the memory hole? Nobody here can at least acknowledge that Obama inherited a massive amount of unfunded spending obligations he had no ability to cut?

205 debutaunt  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:57:50am

re: #183 drcordell

**Laughing - my poor abs!**

206 Occasional Reader  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:58:00am

re: #202 HoosierHoops

Aw, shucks.

207 Dreader1962  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:58:02am

re: #170 Kenneth

"I pledge allegiance to this flag and to the republic for which it stands..."

I believe the second half of that sentence is the important part, in case you missed the point.

Also his partial quote is, in full

Lt. Stephen Decatur
"In matters of foreign affairs, my country may she ever be right, but right or wrong, my country, my country."

In my belief, this is as it should always be said:

AUTHOR: Carl Schurz (1829–1906)
QUOTATION: The Senator from Wisconsin cannot frighten me by exclaiming, “My country, right or wrong.” In one sense I say so too. My country; and my country is the great American Republic. My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.

208 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:58:03am

re: #3 MikeAlv77

Now I see a Willie Nelson ad... hmmm...

For legalizing weed, or pimping Kookcinich? Or maybe Bio-Willie, his biodiesel?

209 HippieforLife  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:58:05am

re: #116 formercorpsman

You hit the nail on the head. Reagan was a leader. The O is not.

There is honest frustration out there and a strong leader would address this as part of the American experience and try to call people together.

He just blames people who do not share his viewpoint. I am pretty sure that not all of the people at these town halls doing the shouting are not all Republicans. No, it doesn't look good; but, the MSM is not exactly known for their objectivity.

210 eschew_obfuscation  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:58:24am

re: #140 Dreader1962

I've skimmed portions; one would have to work full-time to actually grasp it in its entirety.

One aspect of the bill that I noticed that hasn't been discussed (anywhere that I have seen) is the frequent amendments to other existing laws by dictate of edits. An example of this is directing the word 'and' be removed from the end of paragraphs, removing semicolons, inserting the word 'or', and so on. This could be radically changing existing law and the only way to detect it would be to apply the edits and then review the changed law to see what impact it will have.

I thought I had heard that one of the bills being considered had a number of "place holders" in it... provisions that could be filled in after passage by some bureaucrat.

Can any one confirm or debunk that?

211 Wendya  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:58:41am

re: #134 drcordell

At what point does "spending like a Democrat" turn into "spending like a Republican?" Reagan and Bush each ran humongous deficits, while simultaneously expanding the size of the federal government. Clinton ran a surplus, while simultaneously shrinking the federal government payroll by 300,000 people. Then W came into office and ran the largest deficits ever recorded, in addition to expanding the federal gov't more than anyone in history. Why is it "spending like a Democrat"?

Would it be too much effort for you to explain why Reagan and Bush increased spending and the circumstances that awaited Clinton when he came into office?

212 debutaunt  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:58:44am

re: #187 Occasional Reader

Actually, the important part is, "one nation, under God, invisible...". Which taught us, back in kindergarten, that God is invisible.

...with liverty and justice...

213 Cato the Elder  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:58:45am

re: #170 Kenneth

"I pledge allegiance to this flag and to the republic for which it stands..."

I believe the second half of that sentence is the important part, in case you missed the point.

Leave out the flag part, and I'm totally down with it. God could be dropped, too. He was a late insertion anyway.

I pledge allegiance to the Republic of the United States of America, one nation, with liberty and justice for all.

And by allegiance I also mean the duty to tell my mother when she's drunk, and help sober her up.

214 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:59:03am

re: #204 drcordell

He voted against much of it while he was a Senator though.

215 Gus  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:59:10am

Back to some work and coughing, and coughing, and coughing -- damn flu.

Later

216 theheat  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:59:27am

re: #212 debutaunt

Don't forget the Danzer. It gives a Lee Light.

217 Rexatosis  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:59:38am

Re # 185 Dianna

You don't have to like it. As South Park noted democracy is often a choice between a "Turd Sandwich" and a "Giant Douche." But it is still better to make your choice than let someone else do it for you.

I have been to way too many local council meetings where major local policies have been made and there was damn nary a soul in the chambers. I'll take the ugly, brutish, crude, rude, packed in like sardines style of democracy over those meetings anyday of the week.

218 Occasional Reader  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:59:40am

re: #204 drcordell

He had the choice of canceling the bailout package and letting the banking system potentially implode.

Um, he did have the choice of not pushing the stimulus package, or at least scaling it back. And that's a bigger kettle of fish than the bank bailout (and I agree the latter was a necessary evil).

Obama inherited a crisis, yes... and ran with it.

219 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 11:59:49am

re: #199 turn

Yeah, it was a lemon for sure. Hey what's with this pledge of allegiance brew ha ha CE?

Did you say Brew? Why yes I had a few with lunch. They were positively Hopalicious.

220 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:00:00pm

That smell is back again.

221 Kenneth  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:00:02pm

re: #183 drcordell

This version of the graph shows a nice breakdown on where the budget deficit came from.

You don't have to tell us about all the problems Obama "inherited" from Bush, he keeps on reminding us of that every chance he gets anyway. But, please, let's not overlook the Democrats role in creating the economic crisis in the first place, including Obama's own small but special contribution. The "inherited" excuse can only go on so far.

222 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:00:13pm

re: #100 iceweasel

Damn. I thought it was a BB gun. :(

A Red Ryder carbine-action, two hundred shot Range Model air rifle with a compass in the stock and a thing which tells time.

Are you as old as I am? I remember getting a (tiny, so disappointing) Red Ryder cap gun and plastic holster and belt. IIRC, it came from a cereal box ad. Had to have been back in the Forties.

223 medaura18586  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:00:16pm

re: #181 reine.de.tout

I can't help but wonder why somewhere in that post as to the "reason why we're here", there's not some mention of a person's responsibility to take care of himself.

I'm also struck by the vacuous reciprocity implied in "helping each-other," as if entitlement programs were quid pro quo. The gravy train advances in a strictly one-way direction. Who helps the helpers? Do we all take turns in taking care of each-other? No. If you're productive, hard working, smart, and successful, you'll be disproportionately taken from. If you're lazy, incompetent, a whiny cry-baby, you'll be provided for. That's a one way street.

I'm by no means a Social Darwinist, but I do subscribe to a weak axiom of Social Darwinism, in I firmly believe a civilized society should not disincentivize the healthy, smart, and successful from thriving and reproducing. But with the Octamums and other leeches taking over the gene pool, I'm starting to fear we may be doomed.

224 itellu3times  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:00:17pm

re: #188 drcordell

See the above post. Obama inherited 95% of that spending. He couldn't get rid of it if he tried.

Bush "inherited" 9/11.

Bush also "inherited" the financial meltdown, liberals (ha) say "he should have prevented it, it's only the result of republican belief in capitalism and markets, you fools!" but that is crap.

So we can't blame Bush, either.

Reagan, for his money, defeated the Soviet Union, and thereby reduced the prospect of nuclear war for a generation.

And of course Clinton's surplus was entirely not his doing, and in retrospect was the first inflation of the bubble (by Alan Greenspan) that we are still paying for.

I'll grant you that Obama's spending to date is mostly forced, but he's doing it with tremendous enthusiasm, which Bush certainly was not. And Obama's proposed spending going forward, is without precedent.

225 drcordell  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:00:18pm

re: #205 debutaunt

**Laughing - my poor abs!**

So none of that statement was factually accurate? Bush didn't create the single largest unfunded entitlement in U.S. history? Obama had a choice to immediately cut off all spending on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan? Bush didn't author the multi-billion bailout package?

Which one of those statements is false?

226 CommonCents  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:00:23pm

re: #138 Thanos

I didn't say Lieberman is insane. I'm talking about DKOS

I know you didn't. What I was pointing out though was that DKOS attacks on Lieberman did not equate to arf's point. He was referring to the Right's self criticism for being obtuse whereas there was a lack of self criticism on the left for the same.

227 turn  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:00:36pm

re: #202 HoosierHoops

I've been reading here for a long time..Only posting for a year...
You Occasional Reader have always had my deepest respect...
Kind Regards...And as always best of luck

Liar it's a year and a month exactly today, I checked
/
dang hoops, the reason I checked was I thought you had been around way longer than that. Yeah, OR is good people.

228 Digital Display  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:00:48pm

re: #159 Ben Hur

It's done.

A great man knows when to show grace in the right moment...
Kudo's
/plus a right cross on the Internet only means you need to buy a new laptop

229 Occasional Reader  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:00:52pm

re: #219 Creeping Eruption

Did you say Brew? Why yes I had a few with lunch. They were positively Hopalicious.

Knock it off, and get back to your air traffic control duties.

/

230 Killian Bundy  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:01:15pm

re: #218 Occasional Reader

Obama inherited a crisis, yes... and ran with it.

/Bush spent like a drunken sailor, now watch me triple it!

231 Cato the Elder  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:02:04pm

re: #213 Cato the Elder

Damn! I forgot "indivisible".

I pledge allegiance to the Republic of the United States of America, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

--Cato the Elder

Subscribed by my own hand this day the 12th of August, POI 12,009. You all are witnesses!

232 HelloDare  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:02:32pm
Among the most vital tenets of Alinsky’s method were the following:

* “Make the enemy live up to their own book of rules. You can kill them with this, for they can no more live up to their own rules than the Christian Church can live up to Christianity.”

Of course, the press does not hold the Democrats to the same standards. Bush = Hitler signs were rampant when Bush was in office. Air America made almost daily jokes about Bush being assassinated.

I'm not excusing any of the bad behavior at townhalls. I'm just saying that the press should be pointing out parallels with what was said about Bush. Parallels to how people aren't even given a chance to speak on campuses.

Of course that won't happen. At least to the extent that it should. Which is all the more reason, people should behave in the townhalls.

Yelling and screaming only works for the left.

233 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:02:52pm

re: #229 Occasional Reader

Knock it off, and get back to your air traffic control duties.

/

Well what the fuck is auto pilot for?!

234 Occasional Reader  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:02:58pm

Later.

235 ArchangelMichael  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:03:01pm

re: #230 Killian Bundy

/Bush spent like a drunken sailor, now watch me triple it!

I'll see your binge and raise you a couple trillion.

236 turn  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:04:16pm

re: #219 Creeping Eruption

Did you say Brew? Why yes I had a few with lunch. They were positively Hopalicious.

heh, it was a lemon pledge pun but turn can is glad nothing ales ya at the moment.

237 Kenneth  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:05:02pm

re: #113 Gus 802

Interesting links you have at your blog. Let's see, you link to:

> Little Green Footballs 2.0 <
The Brussels Journal
Jihad Watch
Gates of Vienna

Note that he dedicated his blog: "This Weblog is named in honor of one of America's finest soldiers and generals, Douglas MacArthur."

Sorry, Dude. MacArthur was a vain, self-serving liar.

238 drcordell  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:05:21pm

re: #211 Wendya

Would it be too much effort for you to explain why Reagan and Bush increased spending and the circumstances that awaited Clinton when he came into office?

I didn't say there weren't reasons why they spent. I said they ran huge deficits and expanded federal government, while proclaiming themselves to be "anti-government, fiscal conservatives." While Clinton, the "tax and spend big government liberal" managed to run a surplus and shrink the federal payroll.

My point is, at what point does the term "big government Democrat" become "big government Democrat/Republican." It's not about if the spending was justified or not.

239 BlueCanuck  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:05:22pm

re: #213 Cato the Elder

Why leave out the flag part? The flag is an important symbol of any country. That's what it states in the declaration. If you don't have your symbols what are you fighting for? An idea is such an ephemeral thing unless you can pin it to something a little more substantial.

240 NukeAtomrod  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:05:23pm

re: #183 drcordell

Right. But how much of that spending did Obama have a hand in creating. He inherited two costly wars, neither of which were his doing. He inherited the bailout package that was begun by his predecessor. He inherited the MASSIVE medicare prescription entitlement, that was completely unfunded. Oh, and he also inherited the greatest economic crisis since the Great Depression.

I'm not saying that graph isn't accurate, but even if Obama didn't propose a single new spending initiative, he would have inherited one of the largest deficits in history by default. It's intellectually dishonest to attempt to pin the entire budget crisis on a guy who has been in office all of 7 months.

But, but, Obama quadrupled it! Doesn't that make any impact on you? It was already too high... so he made it 4 times higher! Can you dig it?

241 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:05:50pm

re: #198 debutaunt

Does it give you great joy to say that?

I see a tide of bad puns rising.

242 Randall Gross  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:05:58pm

re: #226 CommonCents

I know you didn't. What I was pointing out though was that DKOS attacks on Lieberman did not equate to arf's point. He was referring to the Right's self criticism for being obtuse whereas there was a lack of self criticism on the left for the same.

I could point you to all sorts of links, but I think it's pointless. The fight between factions of the old weathermen groups SDS/NLN comes to mind, the rift between UFPJ and ANSWER, etc. etc. And along with those articles from Huffpo and TPM criticizing them. It's pointless as I don't think I would convince you. The left was in shambles from 2002 forward through 2005, my point was that you just didn't see it in the major press.

243 Kenneth  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:06:07pm

re: #225 drcordell

So none of that statement was factually accurate? Bush didn't create the single largest unfunded entitlement in U.S. history? Obama had a choice to immediately cut off all spending on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan? Bush didn't author the multi-billion bailout package?

Which one of those statements is false?

Those aren't statements, they are questions. Difference.

244 The Left  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:06:24pm

re: #226 CommonCents

He was referring to the Right's self criticism for being obtuse whereas there was a lack of self criticism on the left for the same.

I don't know where you've been, but I assure you there is no lack of self-criticism on 'the left', or of attacks on sitting Dems by the left.

The entire reason Lieberman faced a primary challenge is thanks to left activism.

245 sattv4u2  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:06:28pm

At work. Doing a camera shot for Bloomberg TV

Our National Debt clock

Stands at
$11,542,289,600,000

(and increases bu about $10,000 PER SECOND)

Each family's share is $97,654!


(I hope I can put mine on MasterCard! I could use the reward points)

246 NukeAtomrod  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:06:34pm

re: #188 drcordell

See the above post. Obama inherited 95% of that spending. He couldn't get rid of it if he tried.

What a load.

247 [deleted]  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:07:23pm
248 sattv4u2  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:07:37pm

re: #244 iceweasel

I don't know where you've been, but I assure you there is no lack of self-criticism on 'the left', or of attacks on sitting Dems by the left.

The entire reason Lieberman faced a primary challenge is thanks to left activism. his backing of the Iraq war

249 Ben Hur  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:07:41pm

Clinton had a "PROJECTED" surplus.

9/11 pretty much guaranteed it would come into fruition.

250 midwestgak  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:07:41pm

re: #241 Spare O'Lake

I see a tide of bad puns rising.

When did that Dawn on you?

251 Randall Gross  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:07:42pm

One more word on the subject: PUMAS

252 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:07:43pm

re: #188 drcordell

See the above post. Obama inherited 95% of that spending. He couldn't get rid of it if he tried.

Did he even bother to try?

BTW how is the "Stimulus" Bush's fault?

253 doubter4444  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:07:45pm

The real problem, in my opinion, is the rationalization of behavior that is reprehensible, by anyone, from any political persuasion.
That goes hand in hand with a real disinclination to look to ourselves, and see that there really are people stirring the pot, for their own agenda, what ever that is (ratings, money, spite, whatever).
As I've said before, it's so sad to hear over and over that "it's the medias slant! They are distorting the news!", or "code pink was worse" or whatever.
To ignore the root of the tremendous anger filling a lot of people on the right is wrongheaded and will lead to real danger.
Even on this board there are people who viscerally hate Obama, and call him a lier and a zero and a commie/Marxist/ thug.
On many other sites it's far far worse.
We are SIX months into a 4 year term that he won.
No split between the popular vote and the electoral college, no election fight in the supreme court.

So where is all this anger coming from?
While worries exist, and the economy is a factor, I truly believe much of it is ginned up by the bloviators on the right.
The root is not the health care bill, nor the bailout of the car companies, they are simply manifestations of opportunistic leaders looking for short term gain, and the pot stirrers are using important issues like this as a weapon.
To top it off, we have pathetic elected officials afraid to face them and a few vocal whack jobs down.
In general, the right needs to take a real hard look at itself.
Most of us (except the Reason crowd) said nothing but yes the entire past 8 years, when some pretty questionable decisions were made.
Now a Democrat is in the White House and we scream bloody murder over every comment or action made.
It just rings hollow.

(The next is obligatory, to head off the low-hanging arguers):
1) We can and should have arguments about how to do some of the things that need to be done... but thinking things through seems be going out of fashion.
2) I'm not slagging the last administration, I'm simply not pretending every problem started January 21, 2009, nor I'm pretending that all things bad in the country are the Democrats or the liberals fault.

Responsibility. It's my biggest bug, and it just seems that the right has just lost almost all sense of it.
Rant over

254 Digital Display  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:08:11pm

re: #227 turn

My Dog is sick Turn! We went to the Vet this morning and I'm sitting home with him...I'm pretty sad today...Winston isn't doing so well today..

255 jcm  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:08:13pm

Bush Deficit vs. Obama Deficit in Pictures

President Barack Obama has repeatedly claimed that his budget would cut the deficit by half by the end of his term. But as Heritage analyst Brian Riedl has pointed out, given that Obama has already helped quadruple the deficit with his stimulus package, pledging to halve it by 2013 is hardly ambitious. The Washington Post has a great graphic which helps put President Obama’s budget deficits in context of President Bush’s.

What’s driving Obama’s unprecedented massive deficits? Spending. Riedl details:

* President Bush expanded the federal budget by a historic $700 billion through 2008. President Obama would add another $1 trillion.
* President Bush began a string of expensive finan­cial bailouts. President Obama is accelerating that course.
* President Bush created a Medicare drug entitle­ment that will cost an estimated $800 billion in its first decade. President Obama has proposed a $634 billion down payment on a new govern­ment health care fund.
* President Bush increased federal education spending 58 percent faster than inflation. Presi­dent Obama would double it.
* President Bush became the first President to spend 3 percent of GDP on federal antipoverty programs. President Obama has already in­creased this spending by 20 percent.
* President Bush tilted the income tax burden more toward upper-income taxpayers. President Obama would continue that trend.

* President Bush presided over a $2.5 trillion increase in the public debt through 2008. Setting aside 2009 (for which Presidents Bush and Obama share responsibility for an additional $2.6 trillion in public debt), President Obama’s budget would add $4.9 trillion in public debt from the beginning of 2010 through 2016.

256 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:08:31pm

re: #25 Killgore Trout

I really have to laugh over all these discussions of the GOP is imploding and going completly nuts. Look back over the last 8 years of misbehavior by the left and the end result is their complete control of Congress and the White House.

Seems like the GOP is just taking plays from the Democrat playbook.

257 Ben Hur  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:09:06pm

re: #245 sattv4u2

At work. Doing a camera shot for Bloomberg TV

Our National Debt clock

Stands at
$11,542,289,600,000

(and increases bu about $10,000 PER SECOND)

Each family's share is $97,654!


(I hope I can put mine on MasterCard! I could use the reward points)


Be right down.

It's near my office.

258 Cato the Elder  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:09:09pm

re: #239 BlueCanuck

Why leave out the flag part? The flag is an important symbol of any country. That's what it states in the declaration. If you don't have your symbols what are you fighting for? An idea is such an ephemeral thing unless you can pin it to something a little more substantial.

Symbols are susceptible of misuse. Fools and scoundrels wrap themselves in the flag. It's just my preference not to idealize objects.

And if I'm fighting, I'm certainly not fighting for a symbol, but a reality.

259 apachegunner  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:09:12pm

re: #245 sattv4u2

At work. Doing a camera shot for Bloomberg TV

Our National Debt clock

Stands at
$11,542,289,600,000

(and increases bu about $10,000 PER SECOND)

Each family's share is $97,654!


(I hope I can put mine on MasterCard! I could use the reward points)

I'll just let my great-great-great-great grandkids handle it

260 drcordell  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:09:42pm

re: #221 Kenneth

This version of the graph shows a nice breakdown on where the budget deficit came from.

You don't have to tell us about all the problems Obama "inherited" from Bush, he keeps on reminding us of that every chance he gets anyway. But, please, let's not overlook the Democrats role in creating the economic crisis in the first place, including Obama's own small but special contribution. The "inherited" excuse can only go on so far.

Look at your own graph! The only piece of that graph that can be directly attributed to Obama is the "stimulus package." And that was done in an effort to prevent the Great Depression II from occurring. Other than that, where is Obama's profligate spending? He hasn't implemented a single unfunded entitlement. He hasn't started a single war. He hasn't done anything quite frankly.

I'm not saying that Obama should be above criticism. But for Christ sakes he hasn't implemented a single program yet, aside from a one-time stimulus package in response to a once in a century economic crisis.

261 Dreader1962  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:09:45pm

re: #239 BlueCanuck

Why leave out the flag part? The flag is an important symbol of any country. That's what it states in the declaration. If you don't have your symbols what are you fighting for? An idea is such an ephemeral thing unless you can pin it to something a little more substantial.

Also, while I agree that the addition of 'under God' was unnecessary (it's interesting to look up the history with that), I've never been too put out by this reference. I also don't fly into a rant when someone says, 'God Bless you!' after I sneeze. I agree with the intent behind 'God Bless America'.

All of this, and I've been an atheist for over 25 years. Even wore that designation on my dogtags when I was in the Army, while saluting that flag that gets Cato twisted in bunches. Also, in apparent contradiction, I am against any law or Constitutional amendment that criminalizes flag burning. Hell, if it becomes too popular, I'll set up a booth to sell them to the fools - for a hefty markup, of course. As long as they own it, they can burn it as far as I'm concerned.

262 jorline  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:09:52pm

Retro online store...brings back fond memories.

Hometown Favorites

I found Slo Pokes and Root Beer Fizzies.

263 Ben Hur  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:10:11pm

re: #245 sattv4u2

At work. Doing a camera shot for Bloomberg TV

Our National Debt clock

Stands at
$11,542,289,600,000

(and increases bu about $10,000 PER SECOND)

Each family's share is $97,654!


(I hope I can put mine on MasterCard! I could use the reward points)

Are you really there?

264 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:10:30pm

re: #259 apachegunner

I'll just let my great-great-great-great grandkids handle it

/I cashed in my kids college account and a trust I had set up for them. If they owe the money to Uncle Sam anyway, I figure I might as well use it and let some other poor sucker pay for their needs./

265 drcordell  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:10:59pm

re: #247 buzzsawmonkey

No wonder Obama and his supporters want to make inheritance more difficult.

You know what's really funny? Hearing this whining about what Obama "inherited," when he knew what he was "inheriting," but ran like hell for the office anyway.

And, by the way, it's interesting to see someone yammer about the "intellectual dishonesty" of pinning something on "a guy who has been in office all of 7 months," when the Democrats were wholly committed to blaming 9/11 on George Bush and to sloughing Bill Clinton's responsibility for making it possible.

So, you're attacking the Democrats for "blaming 9/11 on Bush" while in the same breath attributing all of the blame to Clinton. Smooth.

266 jcm  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:11:02pm

re: #245 sattv4u2

At work. Doing a camera shot for Bloomberg TV

Our National Debt clock

Stands at
$11,542,289,600,000

(and increases bu about $10,000 PER SECOND)

Each family's share is $97,654!

(I hope I can put mine on MasterCard! I could use the reward points)

Don't forget the unfunded mandates of Social Security, and Medicare another $55 trillion give or take.

267 redmonkey  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:11:02pm

Last time Republican nominated moderated condidate(McCain) they lost

268 kansas  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:11:32pm

Please use this to counter the Republican myths on
health care reform!
MYTH: Grassroots Protestors are Disrupting Town Halls
House Republican Leader John Boehner’s Office:
“Back home for the August recess, rank-and-fileDemocratic Members of the House are facing a backlash from their constituents.”

FACT: Lobbyist-Run Groups Are Orchestrating Extremist Mobs
Republicans and well-funded special interest groups are sending far-right extremists to local town halls to stop any meaningful discussion of
Health Insurance Reform. Some of these mob scenes have turned especially ugly -- including the hanging of Members of Congress in effigy
and use of Nazi SS symbols.

MYTH: “Government-Encouraged Euthanasia”
House Republican Leader John Boehner claimed
the House bill “may start us down a treacherous
path toward government-encouraged euthanasia.”
Fact: The claim is “nonsense.” The bill never requires anyone to discuss
end-of-life care. Rather, the bill ensures medical professionals who do offer this type of counseling … are reimbursed for their time, just as … for
other types of counseling or medical services.

MYTH: Private Plans Outlawed
Rep. Doc Hastings (R-Wash.) claimed on his website that individual private health insurance plans will be outlawed in 2013 under the
Democratic health care plan.

Paid for by the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee
430 South Capitol Street, S.E. • Washington, D.C. 20003
[no phone numbers allowed] • [Link: www.dccc.org...]

Fact: Private health insurance not banned Individual policies will continue to be available, but people will buy those policies through the national health insurance exchange, which will ensure that people with pre-existing conditions will be able to get coverage. The House bill also allows for existing policies to be grandfathered in,so individual purchasers who like their coverage will be able to keep it.

MYTH: 120 Million Americans Will Be Deprived of Health Care
Rep. Mike Pence (R-Ind.): Democrats’ plan “will deprive roughly 120 million Americans of their current health care coverage.”
Fact: “False”
The 120 million number Pence cites comes from the Lewin Group, a wholly owned subsidiary of insurance giant UnitedHealthCare, which based
its numbers on several public-option scenarios that are dramatically different than what Democrats have proposed. The Congressional
Budget Office estimates that in 2013 about 11 million—NOT 120 million—Americans will end up voluntarily enrolling in the public option, and none
of them will be “deprived” of coverage.

MYTH: There is a Republican Plan
Minority Whip Cantor: “The Republican plan”
provides “access to affordable basic coverage.”
Fact: “Republicans have yet to coalesce around a single plan.”
Even though the House Republicans’ “Health Care Solutions Group” guaranteed a counter proposal, they have refused to release a plan to
the public.

269 Dianna  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:11:43pm

re: #252 Alouette

Did he even bother to try?

BTW how is the "Stimulus" Bush's fault?

I think everyone confuses TARP (which, to my sorrow, I thought necessary) and the stimulus passed under Obama.

Neither was a good idea.

That could be 20/20 hindsight speaking. I know it is in my case, looking at TARP.

270 [deleted]  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:11:55pm
271 Kenneth  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:12:02pm

re: #244 iceweasel

I don't know where you've been, but I assure you there is no lack of self-criticism on 'the left', or of attacks on sitting Dems by the left.

The entire reason Lieberman faced a primary challenge is thanks to left activism.

Riiight. So for Democrats, "self-criticism" means attacking a lone moderate like Lieberman. Gotcha.

272 debutaunt  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:12:03pm

re: #256 rwdflynavy

I really have to laugh over all these discussions of the GOP is imploding and going completly nuts. Look back over the last 8 years of misbehavior by the left and the end result is their complete control of Congress and the White House.

Seems like the GOP is just taking plays from the Democrat playbook.

It is a pretty stupid playbook.

273 sattv4u2  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:12:05pm

re: #263 Ben Hur

Are you really there?

No,, there's a camera there hooked to a fiber line that I can access in Atlanta. I'm seeing it in Atlanta and will be uplinking that "beauty shot" (as it's called in the biz) to a satellite. Not sure who's taking that image off os satellite but they'll use it as a backdrop or insert to a talking head

274 Dianna  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:12:22pm

re: #254 HoosierHoops

My Dog is sick Turn! We went to the Vet this morning and I'm sitting home with him...I'm pretty sad today...Winston isn't doing so well today..

Oh, no. I'm so very sorry.

275 The Left  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:12:50pm

re: #253 doubter4444

Favourited. Rock on, doubter4444!

276 Randall Gross  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:12:55pm

Let me give you an example in FL - Crist can win there, Rubio can't. But the DI candidate will be tearing away at him now through election, and make the election in doubt. Pat Toomey supports Rubio, and it all boils down to Judge picks, even though Crist has been pretty conservative in his appointments.

277 [deleted]  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:12:59pm
278 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:13:15pm

re: #262 jorline

Retro online store...brings back fond memories.

Hometown Favorites

I found Slo Pokes and Root Beer Fizzies.

Candy Stix Cigarettes ! ... *GASP*

279 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:13:27pm

re: #272 debutaunt

It is a pretty stupid playbook.

I couldn't agree more!

280 keithgabryelski  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:13:35pm

re: #107 Kenneth

Does anybody recall moderate Democrats condemning the demagoguery, the hate-filled angry protests & excessive Bush-bashing of yesteryear?

I would love to find just one link to an example of such moderate self-restraint, but alas, I can find none.

You mean besides Jon Stewart?

281 jcm  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:13:41pm

re: #260 drcordell

Look at your own graph! The only piece of that graph that can be directly attributed to Obama is the "stimulus package." And that was done in an effort to prevent the Great Depression II from occurring. Other than that, where is Obama's profligate spending? He hasn't implemented a single unfunded entitlement. He hasn't started a single war. He hasn't done anything quite frankly.

I'm not saying that Obama should be above criticism. But for Christ sakes he hasn't implemented a single program yet, aside from a one-time stimulus package in response to a once in a century economic crisis.

Yep, making the same mistakes again...

FDR's policies prolonged Depression by 7 years, UCLA economists calculate

282 The Left  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:14:12pm

re: #271 Kenneth

Riiight. So for Democrats, "self-criticism" means attacking a lone moderate like Lieberman. Gotcha.

Not at all. I thought it was a very useful example of grassroots activism and anger though.

283 midwestgak  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:14:52pm

re: #262 jorline

Retro online store...brings back fond memories.

Hometown Favorites

I found Slo Pokes and Root Beer Fizzies.

{jorline} Candy tobacco products were a big hit in the 50's and 60's. LOL

You okay, friend? Good to see you.

284 Killian Bundy  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:15:03pm

Obama is about to award Mary Robinson the Medal of Freedom, America's highest civilian honor.

/what a damn shame, there will be no celebration in Israel

285 Jetpilot1101  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:15:05pm

Two thoughts to ponder.

1. All members of the legislative and executive branches should wear uniforms like NASCAR drivers. That way, we'd all be able to see who their corporate sponors are.

2. Instead of having the government withhold your taxes each month, every working American should have to write the IRS a check for the same about that would have been withheld every month. This would showcase how much money we send to the government.

286 Dianna  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:15:46pm

re: #258 Cato the Elder

Symbols are susceptible of misuse. Fools and scoundrels wrap themselves in the flag. It's just my preference not to idealize objects.

And if I'm fighting, I'm certainly not fighting for a symbol, but a reality.

In the abstract, that is a sound position. But...people have symbols for a reason, you know. Sometimes it's simply short-hand, but in others, it's to express things that are hard to put into words without sounding positively mawkish.

287 coldwarrior  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:15:52pm

lemme do some math here...

(435 congressmen + 100 senators)x 2 or so town hall meetings each=

roughly 1000 town hall meetings. thus far i have only seen nastyness at 10 to 20 of them if we throw out multiple problems at one meeting...

so...lets say 50 meetings had bad bevior out of all the meetings. we have overcoverage of boisterousness because it is news when there is shouting and violence, but it is not news when a meeting goes as planned. methinks we are over concerned about a very small percentage.

i gotta tee-time, so see all ya'all later.

288 turn  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:15:53pm

re: #254 HoosierHoops

My Dog is sick Turn! We went to the Vet this morning and I'm sitting home with him...I'm pretty sad today...Winston isn't doing so well today..

Oh man, sorry to hear about Winston. What's the matter with him? btw our 15 year old Willie threw up a little blood yesterday. It's funny, the other two knew he wasn't feeling good and every time Luke got within a few yards of Willie little Whalen would, well whaleon him. Today he's better.

289 CommonCents  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:16:18pm

re: #242 Thanos

OK.

290 kansas  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:16:20pm

I heard a well spoken OB GYN doc today on Limbaugh. Said at McCaskill's town hall he and others had read HR 3200 and were presenting rational questions to her. She pointed out that what they were asking was not in the Senate bill, and there were four different versions of bills. So I wonder what exactly was supposed to have passed before the August recess?

291 Digital Display  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:16:52pm

re: #277 buzzsawmonkey

May he experience a rapid and complete recovery.

Thank you Buzz...That means a lot to me...

292 [deleted]  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:17:22pm
293 debutaunt  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:17:27pm

re: #269 Dianna

I think everyone confuses TARP (which, to my sorrow, I thought necessary) and the stimulus passed under Obama.

Neither was a good idea.

That could be 20/20 hindsight speaking. I know it is in my case, looking at TARP.

Bush said he set aside his free market principles. Talk about justified sorrow.

294 drcordell  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:17:56pm

re: #270 buzzsawmonkey

All? Why, no. The lion's share? You bet your ass.

How many months into Bush's term would 9/11 have to have happened for it to have been his fault? 11? 12? 16? 20? If you're going to go around looking into the past for scapegoats, why stop at Clinton?

Reagan used Islamic fundamentalist radicals to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan. He provided millions upon millions in weapons, money and training to the most violent Islamic groups in Afghanistan. The groups that later became the spawning point for the radicalized Islamic jihad movement.

And no, I'm NOT SAYING that Reagan is responsible for 9/11. The point is, you can always go back and blame your predecessor. And every President has done it, and every President will continue to do it. But for Bush to completely skate on 9/11 is complete hogwash.

295 sattv4u2  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:18:12pm

re: #290 kansas

I heard a well spoken OB GYN doc today on Limbaugh. Said at McCaskill's town hall he and others had read HR 3200 and were presenting rational questions to her. She pointed out that what they were asking was not in the Senate bill, and there were four different versions of bills. So I wonder what exactly was supposed to have passed before the August recess?

SOMETHING ,,,ANYTHING

My God man ,, there are people dying in Hospital Parking Lots by the droves all across this nation because they are being denied their RIGHT to health care

Think of the children
Oh, the Humanity!

296 HelloDare  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:18:24pm

re: #281 jcm

Yep, making the same mistakes again...

FDR's policies prolonged Depression by 7 years, UCLA economists calculate

The Forgotten Man, by Amity Shaels

"Amity Shlaes, who has established herself as a leading historian of twentieth-century finance, shows how inept government intervention turned a necessary market correction into an economic catastrophe and prolonged it into a decade of misery. Readers have waited eagerly for this book for decades. Amity Shlaes has produced it."
-Paul Johnson

"I could not put it down Miss Shlaes's timely chronicle of a fascinating era reads like a novel and brings a new perspective on political villains and heroes-few of whom turn out to be as good or bad as history would have us believe."
-Arthur Levitt

"With cool analysis enlivened by vivid vignettes in a compelling narrative, Amity Shlaes retrieves the epithet stolen and turned on its head by Franklin Roosevelt. The Forgotten Man is as central to political argument today as he was in the Great Depression. How much, in the name of many, may the group impinge on the individual? Miss Shlaes challenges much of the received wisdom and does it with brio and scholarship. Amity Shlaes takes no prisoners."
-Harold Evans

"Though it moves with the speed and fascination of a work by Frederick Lewis Allen, The Forgotten Manoffers an understanding of the era's politics and economics that may be unprecedented in its clarity. Seldom has such a substantive work been such a delight to read. Were John Kenneth Galbraith and Milton Friedman to spend a century or two reconciling their positions so as to arrive at a clear view of the Great Depression, this would be it."
-Mark Helprin

297 Kaymad  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:18:29pm

Huh, seems to me this army of nutters have struck a nerve since they are now being compared to the KKK and Nazis, I don't think when you are in the minority you are going to gain much attention by politely waiting to be called upon to ask a question that WON'T be answered no matter how nicely and how moderately you put it.

Check out the video of the lady asking Shelia Jackson Lee in a NICE POLITE voice a question and see how she is treated with pure contempt.

I guess when you are part of the ruling class you are above listening to the peasants.

Say what you want, look down your long nose and sniff disdainfully at these nutters, but it has put the democrats on the defensive at last. Without these nutters healthcare could have been a walk in the park for the democrats.

298 Kenneth  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:19:21pm

re: #280 keithgabryelski

Thank you for that sole example. Although, I'll wager none of his audience took his tongue in cheek lecture to heart. And it didn't restrain Stewart from making just about any other insulting attack on Bush for the past 8 years.

But if the Democratic Party must look to one bit by a comedian from 2005 to find a call for moderation and restraint, well then, that says a lot in itself.

299 Cato the Elder  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:19:34pm

re: #286 Dianna

In the abstract, that is a sound position. But...people have symbols for a reason, you know. Sometimes it's simply short-hand, but in others, it's to express things that are hard to put into words without sounding positively mawkish.

Don't get me wrong - I don't diss the flag itself. I'm moved by it. But my allegiance is to what it stands for (as the pledge itself explains), not to it. A small distinction, but I hold it to be important, for me at least.

300 wrenchwench  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:19:39pm

re: #285 Jetpilot1101

The second one is good, but this one,

1. All members of the legislative and executive branches should wear uniforms like NASCAR drivers. That way, we'd all be able to see who their corporate sponors are.

is great!

301 CommonCents  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:19:53pm

re: #244 iceweasel

I don't know where you've been, but I assure you there is no lack of self-criticism on 'the left', or of attacks on sitting Dems by the left.

The entire reason Lieberman faced a primary challenge is thanks to left activism.

Don't interject in the middle of a discussion if you are unfamiliar with the context. The point was made that where was the left calling out lefties during the Bush years for thier own parties' over-the-top behavior. I was not referring to self-criticism based on a difference in policy matters which is why Lieberman faced a primary challenge.

302 Digital Display  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:19:55pm

re: #288 turn

Oh man, sorry to hear about Winston. What's the matter with him? btw our 15 year old Willie threw up a little blood yesterday. It's funny, the other two knew he wasn't feeling good and every time Luke got within a few yards of Willie little Whalen would, well whaleon him. Today he's better.

I woke up to Winston pooping blood...In a panic I took him to the Pet Hospital in town.. It doesn't open till 9am..
What the Hell? Did Obama already take over Pet care? CRAP! long day...

303 doubter4444  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:19:58pm

re: #20 lostlakehiker

It's pretty simple, really. The Republicans must win some elections to make any more difference than the Ron Paul party. To win elections, it is necessary to get more votes than the other guy. Not just here and there, in backwater Alabama districts, but nationally.

Nationally, creationism, muttering about birth certificates, and insisting that smoking doesn't cause lung cancer [oops, that smoking coal doesn't cause global warming] won't work.

Let's say you're creationist and you don't think smoking coal causes global warming. Is there anything on your agenda, proactive or defensive, that both matters, and is winnable?

That's how politics works. Lincoln didn't run on a platform of abolition, because great moral crusade or no, he understood that the country wasn't going to elect him on that platform. You do what's doable, or you do nothing but mutter on the sidelines.

Enacting Krauthammer's health reform plan rather than Obama's? Building nuclear power plants so we have a secure energy future? Putting reading and math at the forefront in schools, and seeing to it that if the public schools cannot or will not meet minimal standards then vouchers are available? Isn't there anything that both matters to you and is doable?

Winnable?

Impotent rage is not healthy, and it invites scorn and derision, which impels one to yet more impotent rage. This is a hamster wheel that isn't even fun. Get off it already and go to work for achievable ends.

Well said.

304 drcordell  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:20:05pm

re: #281 jcm

Yep, making the same mistakes again...

FDR's policies prolonged Depression by 7 years, UCLA economists calculate

HAHAHaHaHaHaHah yeah that study has held up REAL well to rigorous review. Their entire thesis is that the New Deal didn't help decrease unemployment. How did they reach that conclusion? By deciding to exclude all workers who received government-funded jobs from their calculation of employment numbers. FAIL

305 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:20:11pm

re: #291 HoosierHoops

And best wishes for Winston from me too, Hoops.

306 Ben Hur  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:20:40pm

re: #273 sattv4u2

No,, there's a camera there hooked to a fiber line that I can access in Atlanta. I'm seeing it in Atlanta and will be uplinking that "beauty shot" (as it's called in the biz) to a satellite. Not sure who's taking that image off os satellite but they'll use it as a backdrop or insert to a talking head


OK.

Then I was right not to knock on the van door!

I was just standing next to it!

307 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:21:18pm

re: #294 drcordell

Clinton should have been more forward in confronting it.

He had the original attempt in 93, the Cole, the Embassy bombings.

Go back and read up on the Samah meeting in Philadelphia.

He admitted up front he approached this as a law enforcement situation, and not militarily.

308 Dianna  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:21:24pm

re: #290 kansas

That's an excellent question.

309 Flyovercountry  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:21:32pm

Guys and Gals, why all the long faces. We lost simply because we compromised our values. We were first and foremost the party of fiscal common sense, free markets, and limited government. We lost that focus. Our own special interest groups emerged, and that coupled with the pandering to liberal voters, caused the shelacking in the last two elections. I had no real desire to vote for McCain, when he stated that he was also for cap and trade and a nationalized health care. Simpley being the lesser of two evils is not enough for me. That Shelacking by the way was overdue and well deserved. I would love to see a fiscal conservative with strong free market principles who does not want to push the religous right agenda pop up. The problem is, for whatever reason, the GOP seems to be the free market party coupled with religous nuts. I have made the decision to swallow my disdain for the Huckabees, Hannitys, and Becks, in order to allow the Hunters, Romneys, and Guilianis get elected. Our shelacking will continue until that moment we appeal to those things our citizens beileve in. Our unifying base has always been self reliance, free markets, limited government and fiscal conservatism. We abandoned those core principals at our peril. When we run on those issues, we win. When we stray, we lose.

310 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:22:14pm

re: #307 formercorpsman

Not to mention Gorelick.

311 turn  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:22:28pm

re: #302 HoosierHoops

I woke up to Winston pooping blood...In a panic I took him to the Pet Hospital in town.. It doesn't open till 9am..
What the Hell? Did Obama already take over Pet care? CRAP! long day...

That doesn't sound good, how old is he?

312 Dianna  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:22:35pm

re: #299 Cato the Elder

I think you may be splitting a few hairs. On the other hand, some hairs are more important.

313 Kenneth  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:23:22pm

re: #294 drcordell

Personally, I blame Osama bin Laden, Ayman Zawahiri, Khalid Sheik Mohammad, the 19 hijackers & the other Al Qaeda scum around them for 9-11.

314 sattv4u2  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:23:32pm

re: #306 Ben Hur

OK.

Then I was right not to knock on the van door!

I was just standing next to it!

hehehehe,,,n/p

I get to "see" stuff from all over the world. People always think i'm right there just because I "see" stuff that isn't on TV right now (or won't be till later)

For instance, all day long we're take in a studio shot from lets say Dallas of someone that Hannity or O'Rielly or Olberman is interviewing although the "live" shows aren't till tonight. They do their shows "live" but those interviews are pre-taped and inserted during the show

315 Dreader1962  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:23:50pm

re: #299 Cato the Elder

Don't get me wrong - I don't diss the flag itself. I'm moved by it. But my allegiance is to what it stands for (as the pledge itself explains), not to it. A small distinction, but I hold it to be important, for me at least.

Okay - on your further posts I see we are closer in opinion than I thought - not calling for worshiping the flag and understanding the importance of maintaining the ideals that it represents, so one can be proud of it.

I withdraw my snark in my previous comment directed at you, Cato. Sorry.

316 [deleted]  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:23:50pm
317 Ben Hur  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:24:59pm

re: #314 sattv4u2

hehehehe,,,n/p

I get to "see" stuff from all over the world. People always think i'm right there just because I "see" stuff that isn't on TV right now (or won't be till later)

For instance, all day long we're take in a studio shot from lets say Dallas of someone that Hannity or O'Rielly or Olberman is interviewing although the "live" shows aren't till tonight. They do their shows "live" but those interviews are pre-taped and inserted during the show

I came very close to yelling "Is there a Lizard in the house?"!

Seriously.

LOL!

318 jorline  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:25:40pm

re: #283 midwestgak

{jorline} Candy tobacco products were a big hit in the 50's and 60's. LOL

You okay, friend? Good to see you.

{gak} I'm hanging in there.

How are you? Weren't you in the insurance industry?

319 medaura18586  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:26:25pm

re: #304 drcordell

HAHAHaHaHaHaHah yeah that study has held up REAL well to rigorous review.

Are you really laughing that hard?

Their entire thesis is that the New Deal didn't help decrease unemployment.

Uh, no it wasn't. Did you even read it?


"President Roosevelt believed that excessive competition was responsible for the Depression by reducing prices and wages, and by extension reducing employment and demand for goods and services," said Cole, also a UCLA professor of economics. "So he came up with a recovery package that would be unimaginable today, allowing businesses in every industry to collude without the threat of antitrust prosecution and workers to demand salaries about 25 percent above where they ought to have been, given market forces. The economy was poised for a beautiful recovery, but that recovery was stalled by these misguided policies."

That's not nothing to do with what you take issue with.

Using data collected in 1929 by the Conference Board and the Bureau of Labor Statistics, Cole and Ohanian were able to establish average wages and prices across a range of industries just prior to the Depression. By adjusting for annual increases in productivity, they were able to use the 1929 benchmark to figure out what prices and wages would have been during every year of the Depression had Roosevelt's policies not gone into effect. They then compared those figures with actual prices and wages as reflected in the Conference Board data.

In the three years following the implementation of Roosevelt's policies, wages in 11 key industries averaged 25 percent higher than they otherwise would have done, the economists calculate. But unemployment was also 25 percent higher than it should have been, given gains in productivity.

Meanwhile, prices across 19 industries averaged 23 percent above where they should have been, given the state of the economy. With goods and services that much harder for consumers to afford, demand stalled and the gross national product floundered at 27 percent below where it otherwise might have been.

What you said makes absolutely no sense but the study does. Have you ever taken an introductory college-level course in economics before trying to blow smoke up economists' asses?

320 jcm  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:26:32pm

re: #304 drcordell

Yeah, taking capital out of the productive sectors, wage and price controls, increasing federal spending and deficits.

Sure fire recipe for success. Works every-time it's been tried.

Not.

321 Digital Display  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:26:39pm

re: #311 turn

That doesn't sound good, how old is he?

He is only 2 1/2 year old...My first pet..
I stood outside the Hospital at 8am with tears flowing down my cheek...
Who opens a pet hospital at 9am?
Thanks Turn...

322 drcordell  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:27:36pm

re: #313 Kenneth

Personally, I blame Osama bin Laden, Ayman Zawahiri, Khalid Sheik Mohammad, the 19 hijackers & the other Al Qaeda scum around them for 9-11.

Exactly. It's not Clinton's "fault" and it's not Bush's "fault." But it's a simple fact that it happened while Bush was President. Somehow I doubt that if we are attacked under Obama the blame will be placed on the terrorists, or Bush.

323 Dreader1962  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:28:04pm

re: #321 HoosierHoops

He is only 2 1/2 year old...My first pet..
I stood outside the Hospital at 8am with tears flowing down my cheek...
Who opens a pet hospital at 9am?
Thanks Turn...

Could just be food that didn't agree with him.

My nephew has a dachshund puppy that went through the same thing. He was worried too, but it turned out okay.

324 Wendya  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:28:12pm

re: #285 Jetpilot1101

Two thoughts to ponder.

1. All members of the legislative and executive branches should wear uniforms like NASCAR drivers. That way, we'd all be able to see who their corporate sponors are.

2. Instead of having the government withhold your taxes each month, every working American should have to write the IRS a check for the same about that would have been withheld every month. This would showcase how much money we send to the government.

I'd love to get rid of employer withholding. I'm a bit tired of being an unpaid tax collector for the federal government and if people had to write that check every month and file their own paperwork, they'd have a better understanding of what they are paying in taxes.

325 keithgabryelski  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:28:42pm

re: #298 Kenneth

Thank you for that sole example. Although, I'll wager none of his audience took his tongue in cheek lecture to heart. And it didn't restrain Stewart from making just about any other insulting attack on Bush for the past 8 years.

But if the Democratic Party must look to one bit by a comedian from 2005 to find a call for moderation and restraint, well then, that says a lot in itself.

Yeah, you asked for an example, I gave it to you -- and a REALLY GOOD example at that.

Plenty of Americans don't like the Nazi references on EITHER SIDE (and yeah, there has been a lot from the right, as well). You seem to have selective historical perspective or maybe you only notice the times YOUR SIDE is condemned.

Yeah, President Bush got compared to Hitler. That was wrong. I've said it hear and other places.

How is the conservative movement going to revive itself if every little bruise from 5 years ago is brought up as a defense for every bad act done today.

How about we quit with the "but but but... the other side did ..." and get back to honest discussion.

326 Cato the Elder  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:28:51pm

re: #315 Dreader1962

Okay - on your further posts I see we are closer in opinion than I thought - not calling for worshiping the flag and understanding the importance of maintaining the ideals that it represents, so one can be proud of it.

I withdraw my snark in my previous comment directed at you, Cato. Sorry.

I didn't take it hard, sir. In fact, I updinged the post.

327 drcordell  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:30:10pm

re: #319 medaura18586

What you said makes absolutely no sense but the study does. Have you ever taken an introductory college-level course in economics before trying to blow smoke up economists' asses?

Did you read the paper?

In the three years following the implementation of Roosevelt's policies, wages in 11 key industries averaged 25 percent higher than they otherwise would have done, the economists calculate. But unemployment was also 25 percent higher than it should have been, given gains in productivity.

That 25% unemployment statistic is the main basis for their entire thesis. And that statistic is based on a completely false premise. The "economists" who authored that study are considered jokes in their field. No serious economist doubts that the New Deal was in fact highly successful. Go look at a graph of GDP correlated with the introduction of the New Deal, subsequent scale back of the New Deal, and re-instatement of the New Deal.

328 jcm  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:30:25pm

re: #324 Wendya

I'd love to get rid of employer withholding. I'm a bit tired of being an unpaid tax collector for the federal government and if people had to write that check every month and file their own paperwork, they'd have a better understanding of what they are paying in taxes.

It a very intentional subterfuge to hide taxes from people paying them.

329 Wendya  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:30:40pm

re: #304 drcordell

HAHAHaHaHaHaHah yeah that study has held up REAL well to rigorous review. Their entire thesis is that the New Deal didn't help decrease unemployment. How did they reach that conclusion? By deciding to exclude all workers who received government-funded jobs from their calculation of employment numbers. FAIL

Government jobs were traditionally excluded because they tell nothing about the health of the economy. Private sector job losses and increases are the true measure.

330 keithgabryelski  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:31:06pm

re: #325 keithgabryelski

Here me hear and now, "gosh, I should proof read"

331 turn  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:31:46pm

re: #321 HoosierHoops

He is only 2 1/2 year old...My first pet..
I stood outside the Hospital at 8am with tears flowing down my cheek...
Who opens a pet hospital at 9am?
Thanks Turn...

awww. Maybe he swallowed something and it will pass. Keep me posted.

332 doubter4444  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:31:58pm

re: #275 iceweasel

Thanks!
You carry a lot of water here for the centrists, I admire you for it.
I wish I had the time (and the thick skin!) to post more.

333 Wendya  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:32:07pm

re: #328 jcm

It a very intentional subterfuge to hide taxes from people paying them.

Plus, it's easier to threaten businesses than it is to try to enforce payment by individual citizens. They wanted a steady flow of money.

334 pianobuff  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:32:21pm

re: #327 drcordell

That 25% unemployment statistic is the main basis for their entire thesis. And that statistic is based on a completely false premise. The "economists" who authored that study are considered jokes in their field. No serious Keynesian economist doubts that the New Deal was in fact highly successful. Go look at a graph of GDP correlated with the introduction of the New Deal, subsequent scale back of the New Deal, and re-instatement of the New Deal.

FIFY

335 jcm  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:33:12pm

re: #330 keithgabryelski

Here me hear and now, "gosh, I should proof read"

PIFW!

;-P

336 Digital Display  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:33:22pm

re: #323 Dreader1962

Could just be food that didn't agree with him.

My nephew has a dachshund puppy that went through the same thing. He was worried too, but it turned out okay.

Thanks..Waiting for the tests to come back...
You know we raised 5 kids..Not once did our doctor demand we scrape up the poop in a bag and bring it in for tests...
And with kids you always know what is up...They complain of tummy issues..Or a sore ear...Frigging dogs haven't evolved to talking yet..

337 Kenneth  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:35:10pm

re: #322 drcordell

The President of the day is responsible for what they do about it. Or fail to do about it.

338 drcordell  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:35:29pm

re: #329 Wendya

Government jobs were traditionally excluded because they tell nothing about the health of the economy. Private sector job losses and increases are the true measure.

The entire point of the New Deal was to get idle workers off the streets and make them productive. This was accomplished with Government funded jobs. Attacking the New Deal as "unsuccessful" by excluding the jobs it by definition sought to create is absolute nonsense.

339 medaura18586  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:35:38pm

re: #327 drcordell

That 25% unemployment statistic is the main basis for their entire thesis. And that statistic is based on a completely false premise. The "economists" who authored that study are considered jokes in their field. No serious economist doubts that the New Deal was in fact highly successful. Go look at a graph of GDP correlated with the introduction of the New Deal, subsequent scale back of the New Deal, and re-instatement of the New Deal.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were an utter idiot when I engaged you. I checked your account and your karma gave me all the clue I needed. Keep talking to the wall, by all means. But before you ask me to take a look at facts and figures which I have already studied in great detail in an academic environment, go look up this term at a dictionary "opportunity cost." No serious economist still believes the New Deal helped the U.S. economy, by the way.

340 Locker  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:36:11pm

David T's quoted comments speak loud and clear to me as a left leaning independent. Many, many times I've had small shoots of empathy with the right stomped into the ground by unrestrained homophobia, open warfare on science and the attitude of win at any cost, even to our constituents detriment.

Oh I did try running with the Libertarians for a few years back in the late 90s but they send WAYYY to much junk mail.

341 eschew_obfuscation  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:37:01pm

re: #272 debutaunt

It is a pretty stupid playbook.

One thing I've noticed is that a number of people in the press and among congress people holding town hall meetings raise the question or make the statement along the lines of "Do you think you changed any minds today?" or "I don't think we changed any minds today".

To me this points up the problem. They think the point of a town hall meeting is to change voters' minds. This is what's making people so angry. No one listens when voters are civil and no one listens when they shout. The difference is that when they shout it makes a big noise in the press.

It's not civil and it's not pretty, but it's getting attention focused where it should be. Many (not among lizards) are wondering what all the fuss is about and looking for the facts for themselves. You can see that in some of the questioners who read from the bill when asking their questions.

Support for the bill(s) has dropped 5% in the past two weeks (from 47% to 42%) alone.

342 abbyadams  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:37:17pm

A few thoughts at the end of this thread.

1.) I am sorry, I don't buy the televised MSM is the cause of all the woes from either the right or the left. The MSM exists to make as much money as possible and beat out its competitors. Period. They will always televise Code Pink, and belligerent Tea Partiers, because it's good theater. Also, I would like to point out that the right (at least in my area) has a literal monopoly on the radio waves. They could use that to get some message (any message) out. But they don't. They use their time to get everyone all inflamed and angry. I suppose that it's for the same reason, to outcompete one another, but at what point do they run out of crazy to compete with? And how is it helping the right? It's not. Used to listen to Beck, and O'Reilly. Haven't for years. The ratio of good ideas to inflammatory ones just got out of whack. And this was during the Bush years. When Republicans controlled both houses of Congress.

2.) I agree wholeheartedly with those who think that this whole RINO thing is out of hand. How many of you here would paint this person a RINO (it is someone I know?) This person has been a Republican for 25 years, having left the Democrats. He is retired, having been a millworker for most of his life, and then worked odd jobs to support his family. For 25 years he has donated to the RNC. He listens to Limbaugh, Beck, and Fox news. And you know what? He supports a public option in health care reform. Says he'll even take a raise in his taxes to help get it passed. Says he wonders what happened to the party he joined. Did not vote for Obama, but is willing to give him a chance. Is he a RINO?

343 JustABill  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:37:23pm

re: #285 Jetpilot1101

Two thoughts to ponder.

1. All members of the legislative and executive branches should wear uniforms like NASCAR drivers. That way, we'd all be able to see who their corporate sponors are.

2. Instead of having the government withhold your taxes each month, every working American should have to write the IRS a check for the same about that would have been withheld every month. This would showcase how much money we send to the government.

3. Tax returns should be due the Tuesday in November, between the 2nd and the 8th.

344 drcordell  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:37:37pm

re: #339 medaura18586

No serious economist still believes the New Deal helped the U.S. economy, by the way.

Ah, is that a fact? Who? Give me a single name besides Cole or Ohanian.

345 doubter4444  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:38:06pm

re: #267 redmonkey

Last time Republican nominated moderated candidate(McCain) they lost

The time they did before they won, or do you think Bush was a conservative candidate?

346 Kenneth  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:39:28pm

re: #325 keithgabryelski

No you don't get to make that lame dodge.

The point I am making, and it's clear you missed it, is that responsible conservatives are engaging in self-reflection and making calls for moderation, while the Democrats did not. On the contrary, they competed with each other to see who could make the most outrageous insults of Bush.

347 drcordell  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:39:54pm

re: #345 doubter4444

The time they did before they won, or do you think Bush was a conservative candidate?

He won the Presidency in both 2000 and 2004 with the votes of extremely Conservative voters. Whether or not he was "Conservative" as a President is pretty obvious. But the Conservatives all voted for him in record numbers.

348 CommonCents  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:40:01pm

re: #253 doubter4444

As a "much more to the right than most"-er, I find myself agreeing with you on a couple of those points but don't kid yourself, we don't all hate Obama just because he has a -D after his name and it didn't start on 11/4/2008. I haven't liked the guy since I learned about him. He has a long documented past that I don't agree with and then a past that is concealed for whatever reason. If it would be beneficial to him he would have shared it so one has to assume that he has something to hide (and I'm not talking about his dumb ass birth certificate).

I would think that you wouldn't be much of a fan either if personal responsibility is one of your core values. How does voting "Present" equate with that?

349 Kenneth  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:41:10pm

re: #339 medaura18586

Oh, this is good. I'm going to get some pop-corn, put up my feet and watch you wipe the floor with that idiot.

350 medaura18586  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:41:27pm

re: #338 drcordell

The entire point of the New Deal was to get idle workers off the streets and make them productive. This was accomplished with Government funded jobs. Attacking the New Deal as "unsuccessful" by excluding the jobs it by definition sought to create is absolute nonsense.

Digging holes and filling them up again, which is what most of those government jobs amounted to, did no such thing as making workers productive. It was welfare in disguise. In fact, it was often worse than that, because most jobs involved tying up resources and capital into boondoggles that were of lesser profit and benefit than their raw inputs' (capital and labor) usage at the next best private alternative.

351 drcordell  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:42:28pm

re: #349 Kenneth

Oh, this is good. I'm going to get some pop-corn, put up my feet and watch you wipe the floor with that idiot.


Still waiting for any information to support his contention that "every" economist agrees with Cole and Ohanian. I'd give him credit for finding a SINGLE credible economist who has published any study with the same conclusion.

352 medaura18586  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:43:24pm

re: #349 Kenneth

But it's not fun. In fact it's extremely depressive to find out there are people spouting off such nonsense with a straight face.

353 NYC_Mike  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:43:50pm

I've been a reader here for years and I have to say - I can't understand the utter fascination this blog as developed for going out of its way to make sure everyone knows that the "right wing" in this country is full of nutjobs. And the harping over and over that these "nutjobs" are the rule, not the exception.

Sure - there are right wing nuts, there always have been right wing nuts.

But at this point in history, the left wing nuts are in charge of every branch of US government - and they are taking us over a cliff while the media smiles and tells us how great everything is.

Only my $.02 and certainly Charles et al can make this blog about whatever they wish. But it just seems like there are much more important issues than what regularly appears in LGF headlines.

For instance - here's a little commone sense about "health care reform" form of all people Camille Paglia (via of all places, Salon.com)

It isn't conservative rumors or lies that are stopping healthcare legislation; it's the justifiable alarm of an electorate that has been cut out of the loop and is watching its representatives construct a tangled labyrinth for others but not for themselves. No, the airheads of Congress will keep their own plush healthcare plan -- it's the rest of us guinea pigs who will be thrown to the wolves.

354 drcordell  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:44:10pm

re: #350 medaura18586

Digging holes and filling them up again, which is what most of those government jobs amounted to, did no such thing as making workers productive. It was welfare in disguise. In fact, it was often worse than that, because most jobs involved tying up resources and capital into boondoggles that were of lesser profit and benefit than their raw inputs' (capital and labor) usage at the next best private alternative.

That is an ideological statement. You claimed that "no serious" economist believes the New Deal helped the U.S. economy. Where are your sources besides that single, attention-whoring study published by Cole and Ohanian?

355 Scion9  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:45:42pm

re: #329 Wendya

More importantly, over 11 million people were drafted into military service at the tail end of the Great Depression. Government funded jobs aside the vast majority of the decrease in unemployment was from people who had no choice in actually working.

By those standards Barack Obama could wipe out unemployment tomorrow by rounding up every unemployed worker between 18 and 42 tomorrow and induct them into military service of indeterminate length.

A marker of economic health is unemployment rate. We could wipe out unemployment practically overnight, but that wouldn't mean that the economy was 'better'. Any serious analysis of FDR's policies has to take those ~11 million draftees out of the equation altogether.

356 Kenneth  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:45:47pm

re: #351 drcordell

Still waiting for any information to support his contention that "every" economist agrees with Cole and Ohanian. I'd give him credit for finding a SINGLE credible economist who has published any study with the same conclusion.

She. And she has a graduate degree in Economics.

But do carry on...

357 pianobuff  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:46:45pm

re: #354 drcordell

That is an ideological statement. You claimed that "no serious" economist believes the New Deal helped the U.S. economy. Where are your sources besides that single, attention-whoring study published by Cole and Ohanian?

And you said "No serious economist doubts that the New Deal was in fact highly successful."

358 drcordell  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:47:18pm

re: #352 medaura18586

But it's not fun. In fact it's extremely depressive to find out there are people spouting off such nonsense with a straight face.

Right. Idiots such as Paul Krugmanre: #356 Kenneth

She. And she has a graduate degree in Economics.

But do carry on...

She being... Medaura?

359 medaura18586  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:47:34pm

re: #351 drcordell

I won't play facts and figures with you. But Milton Friedman and Friedrich Hayek, both Nobel prize winning economists of the highest caliber, would stand behind that statement. How about you provide some backing for your blanket statements instead?

360 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:47:36pm

re: #350 medaura18586

Digging holes and filling them up again, which is what most of those government jobs amounted to, did no such thing as making workers productive. It was welfare in disguise. In fact, it was often worse than that, because most jobs involved tying up resources and capital into boondoggles that were of lesser profit and benefit than their raw inputs' (capital and labor) usage at the next best private alternative.

Updinged (though I think the rhetoric is a bit overmuch.) Yes, the WPA sidewalks were nice to have after they were built, but a sidewalk doesn't produce anything. It just sits there, and sits there, and ...

361 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:49:38pm

re: #358 drcordell
Ahh, former Enron advisor Paul Krugman. Yes, I know him well.

362 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:49:49pm

re: #357 pianobuff

And you said "No serious economist doubts that the New Deal was in fact highly successful."

DrC knows all about "attention-whoring"

363 eschew_obfuscation  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:49:58pm

re: #344 drcordell

Ah, is that a fact? Who? Give me a single name besides Cole or Ohanian.

Here's one.

364 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:50:27pm

re: #363 eschew_obfuscationHere's another one.

Your text to link...

365 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:50:31pm

re: #352 medaura18586

But it's not fun. In fact it's extremely depressive to find out there are people spouting off such nonsense with a straight face.

Hang tough.
You're doing okay.

366 Kenneth  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:50:44pm

re: #361 rwdflynavy

That's right, the guy who said since the first Stimulus Bill didn't work, we need another one. Genius.

367 drcordell  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:52:23pm

re: #357 pianobuff

And you said "No serious economist doubts that the New Deal was in fact highly successful."

re: #360 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Updinged (though I think the rhetoric is a bit overmuch.) Yes, the WPA sidewalks were nice to have after they were built, but a sidewalk doesn't produce anything. It just sits there, and sits there, and ...

You're right. The hoover dam has been of no economic benefit to the nation. Or the Triboro bridge. Or any number of other massive public works projects that were built. None of them provided any benefit to businesses at all over the past 75 years.

368 Korla Pundit  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:52:34pm

re: #187 Occasional Reader

Actually, the important part is, "one nation, under God, invisible...". Which taught us, back in kindergarten, that God is invisible.

No, the important part was about leading pigeons to the flag.

369 keithgabryelski  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:52:56pm

re: #346 Kenneth

No you don't get to make that lame dodge.

The point I am making, and it's clear you missed it, is that responsible conservatives are engaging in self-reflection and making calls for moderation, while the Democrats did not. On the contrary, they competed with each other to see who could make the most outrageous insults of Bush.

Yes, some Democrats did bad. Keith Olbermann is a great example of someone who found a niche by degrading a president. I didn't like it (although, I said at the time I understood the anger, I just didn't agree with how it was presented).

There were A LOT of us who did not take that road. President Obama has been pretty even keeled when discussing the opposition party (as well as the people that oppose him). His speech on January 20th contained the words "it is times to set aside childish things". President Clinton said (I can't find the exact quote) but it was "i like both these guys (referring to a Democrat and President George W. Bush, they both want the same thing for the country but have different ways of getting there".

These are ways of calling for moderation. It happened quite a bit, by more than just Political leaders. The Yahoos that called people names got a lot of press and the moderates got less, that is how the press works.

370 medaura18586  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:53:14pm

re: #358 drcordell

Exactly, a fucking moron and partisan hack like Paul Krugman is the best advocate for the nonsense you put forth here. But I did say I won't engage you, and I will stand by my word. There would be no point. Keep talking to the hand.

371 drcordell  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:53:47pm

So I take it everyone here believes that has Obama done nothing, and not passed the stimulus, we would already be out of the economic crisis? That the stimulus is in no way responsible for the economic recovery we are now seeing?

372 pianobuff  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:53:56pm

re: #367 drcordell

You're right. The hoover dam has been of no economic benefit to the nation. Or the Triboro bridge. Or any number of other massive public works projects that were built. None of them provided any benefit to businesses at all over the past 75 years.

What on God's green Earth does that have to do with your claim that I pointed out?

373 jcm  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:54:24pm

re: #351 drcordell

Still waiting for any information to support his contention that "every" economist agrees with Cole and Ohanian. I'd give him credit for finding a SINGLE credible economist who has published any study with the same conclusion.

And how many links have you provided to back up your contentions?
About anything? I gave you a study, you respond with opinion. Same with deficit data, you are given links and data, you respond with opinion. Tis' a pattern I've noted, as have others.

374 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:55:08pm

re: #371 drcordell
You now have 2 links to investigate. How's that going?

375 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:55:25pm

re: #367 drcordell

You're right. The hoover dam has been of no economic benefit to the nation. Or the Triboro bridge. Or any number of other massive public works projects that were built. None of them provided any benefit to businesses at all over the past 75 years.

They were only a small part of it. And yes, I know about the dams. My father and his father and brother worked on Hoover and Grand Coulee.

376 drcordell  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:55:57pm

re: #370 medaura18586

Exactly, a fucking moron and partisan hack like Paul Krugman is the best advocate for the nonsense you put forth here. But I did say I won't engage you, and I will stand by my word. There would be no point. Keep talking to the hand.

Yes real insightful. Krugman is a "fucking moron." Brilliant.

377 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:56:23pm

re: #369 keithgabryelski

Keith, it was far more than some.

378 eschew_obfuscation  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:56:26pm

re: #371 drcordell

So I take it everyone here believes that has Obama done nothing, and not passed the stimulus, we would already be out of the economic crisis? That the stimulus is in no way responsible for the economic recovery we are now seeing?

Since only something like 10% of it has actually been spent and most of that on welfare programs... yes, it has had very little effect if any.

379 drcordell  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:56:34pm

re: #375 pre-Boomer Marine brat

They were only a small part of it. And yes, I know about the dams. My father and his father and brother worked on Hoover and Grand Coulee.

Ah, so the WPA did more than just make "sidewalks" then?

380 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:56:44pm

re: #376 drcordell

Yes real insightful. Krugman is a "fucking moron." Brilliant.

Please be respectful. That's former enron advisor Krugman to you!

381 medaura18586  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:57:31pm

re: #375 pre-Boomer Marine brat

They were only a small part of it. And yes, I know about the dams. My father and his father and brother worked on Hoover and Grand Coulee.

Not to mention they cost too much (could have been constructed more efficiently) and were chosen arbitrarily as opposed to based on their economic merits. They're pretty useless compared to other infrastructure projects that could have been pursued.

382 Wendya  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:57:39pm

re: #338 drcordell

The entire point of the New Deal was to get idle workers off the streets and make them productive. This was accomplished with Government funded jobs. Attacking the New Deal as "unsuccessful" by excluding the jobs it by definition sought to create is absolute nonsense.

A great deal of those jobs were make-work and temporary in nature. They did nothing to help the economy recover and they were heavily politicized via the patronage system. They were Roosevelt's way of buying votes. The new deal hindered the recovery by deploying asinine, restrictive and unconstitutional regulations on business.

383 jcm  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:57:54pm

re: #371 drcordell

So I take it everyone here believes that has Obama done nothing, and not passed the stimulus, we would already be out of the economic crisis? That the stimulus is in no way responsible for the economic recovery we are now seeing?

Stimulus money isn't in the system in a any great amount yet.

The government wouldn’t be able to spend at least one-fourth of a proposed $825 billion economic stimulus plan until after 2010, according to a new report that suggests it may take longer than expected to boost the economy.

A Congressional Budget Office analysis of President Barack Obama’s plan found that most of the approximately $355 billion in proposed discretionary spending on highways, renewable energy and other initiatives wouldn’t be spent before 2011. The government would spend about $26 billion of the money this year and $110 billion more next year, the report said.

About $103 billion would be spent in 2011, while $53 billion would be spent in 2012 and $63 billion between 2013 and 2019, the report said. Republicans said the analysis showed that the plan, unveiled last week by House Democrats, won’t get money into the economy quickly enough.

384 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:57:58pm

re: #372 pianobuff

What on God's green Earth does that have to do with your claim that I pointed out?

Don't expect him to give straight answers.

/*grin* ... just sayin'

385 drcordell  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 12:58:44pm

re: #378 eschew_obfuscation

Since only something like 10% of it has actually been spent and most of that on welfare programs... yes, it has had very little effect if any.

Is that an assertion that the stimulus has been harmful? Or merely ineffective?

386 medaura18586  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 1:00:30pm

I need to get out of this thread before my head explodes from drcordell's asinine nonsense and moving goalposts. Bye all.

387 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 1:00:54pm

re: #379 drcordell

Ah, so the WPA did more than just make "sidewalks" then?

Keep going ... *grin*

/BTW, how are you doing at checking out the links to reputable economists?

388 drcordell  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 1:02:49pm

re: #383 jcm

Do you read your own links? "One quarter" of the $825 billion won't be spent until after 2010. That means $618 billion will be. Apparently that is now considered "not a great amount." Right. Look at where the economy is now. Now imagine where it would be with several hundred billion dollars of demand further stripped out.

389 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 1:03:20pm

re: #383 jcm

*SnickerChortleCackle*
He's an idiot, isn't he!
He thinks the passage of legislation is a magic wand.

390 Kenneth  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 1:03:30pm

re: #371 drcordell

So I take it everyone here believes that has Obama done nothing, and not passed the stimulus, we would already be out of the economic crisis? That the stimulus is in no way responsible for the economic recovery we are now seeing?

I'm just waiting for the money supply spike to hit the system and hyper-inflation kicks in. That's going to be a real party!

391 eschew_obfuscation  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 1:04:43pm

re: #385 drcordell

Is that an assertion that the stimulus has been harmful? Or merely ineffective?


Harmfull in that it is all borrowed money and ineffective in that it is not getting to employment-creating projects yet. I don't honestly know what its long-term economic effect will be other than to leave us with a huge debt and related interest.

392 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 1:05:13pm

re: #388 drcordell
Bueller, Bueller, Bueller.

393 keithgabryelski  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 1:05:45pm

re: #377 formercorpsman

Keith, it was far more than some.

Both sides are making this claim, right? There are plenty of Democrats who felt every conservative was calling them an un-American pansy and much greater insults, and now Democrats see a lot of the word "Socialist" -- gosh LGF has a number of acronyms to insults Democrats and President Barack Obama.

My point: this is crap that goes on A LOT, but is honed from small groups. It comes from both sides pretty evenly (even if Democrats are claiming, right now, the vitriol is higher from The Right than anything they delivered. I think the key here is that one tends to notice abuses against one's own side and tends to ignore or accept more of the abuses when they come from one's own side.

394 drcordell  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 1:06:31pm

re: #387 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Keep going ... *grin*

/BTW, how are you doing at checking out the links to reputable economists?

I checked them out, and I disagree with their assertions. It is true that I used a bit of hyperbole when I stated that "no reputable" economist claims the New Deal was harmful. But the vast majority believe it was at the very least beneficial. In a 1995 survey only 27% of economists agreed with the statement that "taken as a whole the New Deal served to lengthen the Depression." Three out of Four is clearly a solid consensus.

395 Hawaii69  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 1:06:45pm

re: #4 NukeAtomrod

An understandable opinion from someone that only knows America from what he sees on TV.

Toss in the internet, and that would seem to describe most Americans at this point as well.

396 drcordell  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 1:07:34pm

re: #390 Kenneth

I'm just waiting for the money supply spike to hit the system and hyper-inflation kicks in. That's going to be a real party!

Because there was no devaluation of assets that occurred when the real estate bubble burst...

397 drcordell  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 1:08:03pm

re: #392 rwdflynavy

Bueller, Bueller, Bueller.

Not Bueller... it's Cameron actually.

398 arf  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 1:08:36pm

42 smorpheus Wait, you've never heard of Code Pink? You've never heard them get ridiculed by both the left and the right?

Code Pink was criticized from the right. Not from their side. Did they get the kind of treatment we're seeing now from, say, NPR? Chris Matthews? Olberman? The MSM?

Not even close.

399 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 1:08:47pm

re: #394 drcordell

I checked them out, and I disagree with their assertions. It is true that I used a bit of hyperbole when I stated that "no reputable" economist claims the New Deal was harmful. But the vast majority believe it was at the very least beneficial. In a 1995 survey only 27% of economists agreed with the statement that "taken as a whole the New Deal served to lengthen the Depression." Three out of Four is clearly a solid consensus.

*grin* ... Keep going ... you're starting to back off, aren't you.

heh

/GAZE

400 Ben Hur  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 1:09:50pm

If it wasn't for the Hoover Dam we wouldn't have all the technology we have today, including cars, phones, microchips, etc.

401 Kenneth  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 1:10:17pm

re: #393 keithgabryelski

How many people pelted Obama's inauguration with eggs? They did that to Bush. The media yawned. Micheal Moore cheered. Olbermann regularly compared Bush to Hilter. His ratings soared. There is no equivalence.

402 jcm  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 1:10:33pm

re: #385 drcordell

%3

403 Ben Hur  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 1:11:35pm

re: #400 Ben Hur

If it wasn't for the Hoover Dam we wouldn't have all the technology we have today, including cars, phones, microchips, etc.


Not into films, much?

404 RajaBabu  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 1:11:57pm

The Fed has had more effect on the economy than the so called
stimulus.

405 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 1:12:19pm

re: #394 drcordellupding for honesty.

406 pianobuff  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 1:12:22pm

re: #400 Ben Hur

If it wasn't for the Hoover Dam we wouldn't have all the technology we have today, including cars, phones, microchips, etc.

Saboteur would have been a much lamer movie, too.

407 shortshrift  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 1:12:57pm

re: #342 abbyadams

On whether your acquaintance is a RINO: He is a Republican until he votes Democrat.

408 Hawaii69  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 1:13:30pm

re: #9 NukeAtomrod

Yeah! They're acting just like Liberals! For shame!

I always find this humorous. The conservative ideologues claim that "we are the rational ones! The liberals are ruled by emotion!".

Those people are acting just like people

409 medaura18586  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 1:13:56pm

I will say one last thing though. Drcordell's playing around with terms like "asset devaluation" and "real estate bubble bursting" or taking issue with the methodology of academic-level economic studies is like young-earth creationists babbling away about how the "second law of thermodynamics disproves evolution" and taking issue with the methodology of carbon dating, all the while claiming to be a scientist, or have a son/brother/neighbor who is, and who supposedly agrees with that nonsense.

410 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 1:14:02pm

re: #394 drcordell

I checked them out, and I disagree with their assertions. It is true that I used a bit of hyperbole when I stated that "no reputable" economist claims the New Deal was harmful. But the vast majority believe it was at the very least beneficial. In a 1995 survey only 27% of economists agreed with the statement that "taken as a whole the New Deal served to lengthen the Depression." Three out of Four is clearly a solid consensus.

Did you read to the last section of the Milton Friedman article linked above?

411 CommonCents  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 1:15:52pm

re: #371 drcordell

So I take it everyone here believes that has Obama done nothing, and not passed the stimulus, we would already be out of the economic crisis? That the stimulus is in no way responsible for the economic recovery we are now seeing?

Firstly, stating "everyone here" wouldn't be wise as there are many differing opinons expressed on LGF.

Secondly, I for one think it was not intended to stimulate the economy but to line the pockets of supporters and to purchase future voting blocks. You can point out the scattered examples of Republican districts that have received stimulus money as an argument against what I'm saying but I call that smoke to hide the fire.

Thirdly, thank you for down dinging my post as to why I don't like Obama. I didn't call him names and didn't reference anything that was factually inaccurate. I'll be sure to return the favor.

412 arf  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 1:17:29pm

Remarks made here about “writing off” the GOP. I just can’t understand that.

The GOP was “written off” back in 1976. I distinctly remember reading the articles about the death of the Republican Party back then.

The Dems were dead in the 1980’s, and again 2001, 2002, etc.

Come off it. Sheesh. The parties come and go. None of that diminishes the legitimate criticism of the many things the GOP has done to screw up.

But……listen very carefully……..that applies to BOTH SIDES.

What is it, the last three Lieutenant Governors of Massachusetts were removed from office for corruption. No opposition party. One party is in power long enough, they will co-opt the local and state regulatory agencies. Pretty soon, you need the Feds to deal with corruption at that level. You want a healthy two-party system. Lord help us when there’s only one party at the Federal level.

413 hanoch  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 1:17:29pm

David T.'s comments are riddled with their own problems:

First, he suggests that the so-called "moderate" Republicans have some sort of control over the viewpoints of more conservative Republicans. This notion of control is, of course, non-existent.

Second, David T. employs the same tactics that he purportedly decries. He uses inflammatory rhetoric such as "gay bashing" when he (and any sane person) should know that opposition to the redefinition of marriage has nothing to do with "gay bashing".

Third, he states "Parties win elections when they define the mainstream, and then occupy it." This is obvious nonsense. The US just elected the most left-wing president in its history and, except for a minority of "blue dog" democrats, the democratic party that now controls Congress is as left-wing as it has ever been.

What we are seeing now is an extreme reaction on the right to the enactment of far-left policies that are dramatically re-shaping the most fundamental foundations of the United States. I agree that it is not a pretty sight and may be unproductive, but it surely cannot come as a surprise to anyone. Further, I would not be as pessimistic as David regarding the prospects of the Republican party. We all know that when the left-wing was out of power, they used similar (in my opinion, worse) tactics, and that surely did not prevent them from winning elections. From what I see in current polls, Republicans actually have some decent prospects in 2010 (though it is a long way away and anything can happen in the interim).

414 fizzlogic  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 1:24:01pm
415 medaura18586  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 1:25:02pm

re: #356 Kenneth

She. And she has a graduate degree in Economics.

But do carry on...

Undergraduate, actually, but I did pretty damn well. One doesn't need a Master or PhD as qualification for asserting the Earth is round,

416 JCM  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 1:25:18pm

re: #402 jcm

%3

LGF failed to load...

re: #385 drcordell

Is that an assertion that the stimulus has been harmful? Or merely ineffective?

A lot of the stimulus money is allowing local districts to shift funds allocated out of projects to patch their economic woes, and uses stimulus to run the shovel ready project which had already been funded.

This allow localities to continue as they have been, and not address local budgetary problems. WA legislature did that this year, using one time accounting tricks and stimulus money to patch a $8 billion deficit till the next budget.

Bill could let MTA shift stimulus funds

Stimulus used to fill deficit holes isn't stimulating anything but Chrissy's leg tingle.

417 Wishbone  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 1:31:14pm

Harry's place

Center right?

LOL... Ok...

Has anybody told them?

418 doubter4444  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 1:31:23pm

re: #348 CommonCents

Thanks, and I don't fool myself (I think) than people hate him only because they are told to.
I don't like the fact that he voted "present" a lot of the time.
However, I am a bit confused on the two past thing... one long documented, and one hidden.
But I, personally, don't lose sleep over the "long documented past" that he has... different strokes, I guess. I think the Ayers stuff was total bullshit.
The Rev. Wright, I don't know enough about black churches to develop an strong opinion, I do believe that his going to that church was a combination of politics, and once there, inertia.
I think Rev Wright was rightly vilified, but I frankly just don't know enough... at the same time as he spouted off hateful rhetoric, he was also instrumental in feeding and clothing and housing many poor people on the south side, and served with distinction in the Army and hosted many other politicians.
At any rate, I don't think, as many do, that Obama is an anti-white, America-hating bogyman actively trying to ruin the country.
Nor do will I think he will.
I will say that the sealing up of transcripts is odd. I don't see the down side of releasing them, only the fact that haters will try to make hay of anything he did... but it seems pretty wimpish not to do so.

419 keithgabryelski  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 1:32:29pm

re: #401 Kenneth

How many people pelted Obama's inauguration with eggs? They did that to Bush. The media yawned. Micheal Moore cheered. Olbermann regularly compared Bush to Hilter. His ratings soared. There is no equivalence.

Eeassh, no one likes to see that stuff. Michael Moore is interesting sometimes but, yeah -- any time anyone feeds the "bush had an active roll in 9/11" conspiracy I'm gonna go with the descriptor "turd" before anything else.

I mean this as an experiment, not as some sort of pedantic rhetoric:

If I were to give you $5 for each example of a conservative demeaning the office of the presidency from President Obama's inauguration and compared it to the first 200 days of George W. Bush's presidency would they come out about even?

420 arf  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 1:32:40pm

Just using healthcare as an example.

The plans being bandied about tend to revolve around some sort of insurance exchange, Massachusetts calls it the “connector”. The idea is you are supposed to have some sort of “acceptable” insurance, I believe Massachusetts calls it “creditable” insurance. With the individual mandate, you are supposed to get this, or suffer some sort of penalty.

The devil is in the details. You don’t get the details in the plan summaries. What is “acceptable” or “creditable” insurance? My HDHP and HSA do not count. They are not allowed in the form I have it, in Massachusetts currently, nor would they be allowed under the plans proposed federally.

I am a doctor. I’m in private practice. I have a choice. This is insurance I choose for myself, my wife, my children. Someone with a tenth of my education says it’s not good enough. I also get the same for my employees. When they come to understand it, they love it. A big chunk of America’s health payment problems would be helped if we had more consumer-directed healthcare. To the degree we have any price transparency at all is because of HSA’s. Give it a chance to grow and you’ll get price competition for MRI’s and normal obstetrical care the way you get price competition for LASIK.

“You can keep your insurance” is a patent lie, deconstructed long ago.

THAT’S my concern. NOT the death committees or whatever they call it.

But try to bring it up, all the media wants to talk about is some guy who lost his temper or brought up the stupid birth certificate again.

No, it’s NOT “our own fault” because one person out of millions lost his temper. It remains the media’s fault for deliberately ignoring the legitimate criticism of the healthcare plan. I have been shouted down MANY, MANY, MANY times for pointing out legitimate criticism with these healthcare proposals. Showing the data, citing sources, not good enough. I don’t have a soul. I’ve had that said to me.

But I can talk ‘till I’m blue in the face. It doesn’t matter. If one Republican acts badly somewhere in North America, that’s all we will see on the news.

421 JCM  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 2:01:21pm

re: #388 drcordell

Do you read your own links? "One quarter" of the $825 billion won't be spent until after 2010. That means $618 billion will be. Apparently that is now considered "not a great amount." Right. Look at where the economy is now. Now imagine where it would be with several hundred billion dollars of demand further stripped out.

English, english. Less than one quarter will be spent. LESS THAN.

422 medaura18586  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 2:14:28pm

re: #421 JCM

Tell him how much has been spent ALREADY. Not between now and 2010, but as of the time of this writing. It's an embarrassing percentage, which makes it clear as daylight that any recovery we have experienced is not due to "da stimulus." Not to say that we are even experiencing a genuine recovery. Jobs are still being lost, merely at a lower rate than before, and the stock market rally is nothing to bank on continuing. Also, stock markets recovering are not generally a sure indicator of economic recovery in and of themselves. What determines the performance of the stock market has very much to do with the comparative profitability of investing in the debt/bond market, long term interest rates, etc. There have been cases of robust stock market performances amidst clear recessions. So it's not as simple as the towering genius drcordell makes it out to be.

423 Aye Pod  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 3:28:19pm

re: #275 iceweasel

Favourited. Rock on, doubter4444!

Me too. That was a damn fine post.

424 Aye Pod  Wed, Aug 12, 2009 3:38:20pm

re: #417 Wishbone

Harry's place

Center right?

LOL... Ok...

Has anybody told them?

Harry's Place is 'officially' centre left, although it welcomes and hosts views from those on the centre right as well, for example those of regular contributer Edmund Standing.

425 SGTTED  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 6:00:03am

I thought we tried the moderates approach with "compassionate conservativism"? "Working" with Democrats, like when Bush and Ted Kennedy hugged each other and passed bills written re: #347 drcordell

He won the Presidency in both 2000 and 2004 with the votes of extremely Conservative voters. Whether or not he was "Conservative" as a President is pretty obvious. But the Conservatives all voted for him in record numbers.


Thats because alot of us held our nose and voted for him; the Moderate in all things except SocCon ideals GW Bush.

426 SGTTED  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 6:00:59am

woops bad blockquoting in #425

427 kywrite  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 6:39:25am

The lady was a nutcase, no doubt, and in no way should she have been allowed to do that (total WTF? would have been my reaction). But Castle is a true RINO. He's one of the 8 R's who voted for cap&trade and has taken full advantage of the very strange Delaware system of politics, whereby a few old-boys - of both parties - control pretty much the whole thing in a very bipartisan way; he was, in fact, anointed by the outgoing Democrats to take his representative seat when he ran out of term-time to be Governor. I can't count him as a moderate because I see him as a liberal, pretty much in the same vein as Arlen Specter.

428 JohnH  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 8:07:14am

re: #420 arf

Don't go getting all rational on us. Good points. Many Rs do have a plan and it is a blatant lie to say they don't. You just never hear about it.

Represented an insurance company that started in the HSA mode almost 20 years ago. Made perfect sense then; makes even more now.

Why is health insurance treated dfferently? I don't expect the gov't to take care of maintenance on my car. I have insurance for catastrophic problems, but not oil changes. Why should health insurance be a right? Removing the consumer responsibility aspect from the equation has led to the increased costs.

429 arf  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 8:48:18am

428 John H.- thanks. Consumer-driven healthcare (CDHC) has been around long enough that we’re getting better data…….and the data supports it.

As in, it’s been tried, and it works. I wish HSA’s had existed when I was younger and out of college. I’d have enough HSA savings that the deductible would be self-reproducing every year with conservative investment, just from interest income. So all I’d have to pay is premium. Some insurance plans actually LOWERED premium for high-deductible health plans (HDHP), the HSA-compatible insurance. The announcements for 2009 premium came out in late 2008. Basically about $400-500 a month for a middle-aged couple, with children, the usual illnesses. Hard times this year? You can hold off contributing to the HSA for a year. Between jobs? Use the HSA to pay premium while unemployed.

They say Americans don’t save enough. Here’s a vehicle to do exactly that.

I’ve felt strongly for some time, the left is not afraid CDHC won’t work.

They’re afraid it WILL work. Empowering the middle class. Allowing them to keep their own money. Reduce dependence on government.

It’s their worst nightmare.

And it gets zero mention in the MSM except maybe to sneer at it. Some backhanded dismissal as they segue into the public option again. Oh, here’s another person in East Tuscaloosa who thinks Obama isn’t a citizen. Here’s a doctor who lost his cool after hearing insult after insult direct from the President’s mouth, and forwards an insulting photoshop of the President. Let’s run an hour on that. Arf’s citations are too boring. And I mean it when I say I’ve been shouted down. A lot.

While I’m at it, what is it about the Pledge of Allegiance that drives the Brits mad?

430 arf  Thu, Aug 13, 2009 9:01:04am

BTW, have you seen this? Here’s an excellent editorial on healthcare payment reform, from the CEO of Whole Foods.

[Link: online.wsj.com...]

Rational discourse gets drowned out. When I've said stuff like this, I've been accused of not having a soul. Not caring about humanity.


This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.

Jump to top

Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT
LGF User's Guide RSS Feeds

Help support Little Green Footballs!

Subscribe now for ad-free access!Register and sign in to a free LGF account before subscribing, and your ad-free access will be automatically enabled.

Donate with
PayPal
Cash.app
Recent PagesClick to refresh
Trump’s “Stolen Election” Lie Based on Evidence From Pervy Bathroom Cam-Spy OK, this really takes the cake. If you have relatives that still cling to the “election was stolen, dadgum, I jes’ KNOW IT … This should be a slight remedy to the stubborn madness Thanks to online anonymity, the ...
Khal Wimpo (free internal organs upon request!)
Yesterday
Views: 57 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 0
Best of April 2024 Nothing new here but these are a look back at the a few good images from the past month. Despite the weather, I was quite pleased with several of them. These were taken with older lenses (made from the ...
William Lewis
3 days ago
Views: 169 • Comments: 2 • Rating: 5
Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ...
Cheechako
3 weeks ago
Views: 414 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1