Evolutionary Adaptations Forced by Climate Change

Environment • Views: 2,927

A fascinating piece by science writer Carl Zimmer looks at the evidence that climate change is forcing surprisingly rapid evolutionary changes in some species of plants and animals: First Comes Global Warming, Then An Evolutionary Explosion.

In 1997, Arthur Weis found himself with an extra bucket of seeds. Weis, who was teaching at the University of California at Irvine at the time, had dispatched a student, Sheina Sim, to gather some field mustard seeds for a study. When Sim was done with her research, Weis was left with a lot of leftover seeds. For no particular reason, he decided not to throw the bucket out. “We just tossed it in a cold, dry incubator,” said Weis.

Weis is glad they did. When a severe drought struck southern California, Weis realized that he could use the extra bucket of seeds for an experiment. In 2004 he and his colleagues collected more field mustard seeds from the same sites that Sim had visited seven years earlier. They thawed out some of the 1997 seeds and then reared both sets of plants under identical conditions. The newer plants grew to smaller sizes, produced fewer flowers, and, most dramatically, produced those flowers eight days earlier in the spring. The changing climate had, in other words, driven the field mustard plants to evolve over just a few years. “It was serendipity that we had the seeds lying around,” says Weis.

Weis is convinced that his experiment is just a harbinger of things to come. Global warming is projected to drastically raise the average global temperature, as well as producing many other changes to the world’s climate, such as more droughts in California. And in response, Weis and other researchers contend, life will undergo an evolutionary explosion.

“Darwin thought evolution was gradual, and that it would take longer than the lifetime of a scientist to observe even the slightest change,” says Weis, who is now at the University of Toronto. “That might be the average case, but evolution can also be very rapid under the right conditions. Climate change is going to be one of those things where the conditions are met.”

Over the past decade, conservation biologists have published a string of studies demonstrating that global warming is changing the face of nature.

Read the whole thing…

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467 comments
1 [deleted]  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 2:55:57pm
2 doppelganglander  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 2:57:02pm

Well, since all climate change is caused by man, clearly no evolution could have taken place prior to the Industrial Revolution.

/

3 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 2:58:14pm

re: #1 buzzsawmonkey

I'm watching for the huge thumbs that are sure to evolve as a result of text messaging.

No, the thumbs will be smaller so they can press the keys more accurately.

4 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 2:58:54pm

re: #1 buzzsawmonkey

I'm watching for the huge thumbs that are sure to evolve as a result of text messaging.

Next, we'll evolve a second pair of eyes in the top of the head so you can watch traffic while looking down at the cell phone.

5 Outrider  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:00:09pm

I'm sure all these changes to the climate can be repaired real quick by a massive redistribution of the wealth in this country...and a redistribution of the worlds wealth to 3d world despots.///

6 yochanan  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:00:22pm

re: #1 buzzsawmonkey

one would think smaller sized thumbs would work better and faster ones.

7 spidly  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:00:59pm

They're already seeing penguins having to adapt

oh wait, this is the right one at the moment

8 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:01:39pm

re: #1 buzzsawmonkey

I'm watching for the huge thumbs that are sure to evolve as a result of text messaging.

Thumbs will become smaller to fit the devices.

9 SasquatchOnSteroids  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:02:07pm

re: #1 buzzsawmonkey

I'm watching for the huge thumbs that are sure to evolve as a result of text messaging.

What will we need thumbs for ?
You will be able to just thought transmit thru your implant.

10 Shug  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:03:14pm

I wonder if any of the animals in Michigan are adapting to the Coldest July on record.

11 [deleted]  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:03:34pm
12 SasquatchOnSteroids  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:04:17pm

re: #11 buzzsawmonkey

Have breast augmentations progressed so far?

We're workin' on it.

13 [deleted]  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:04:34pm
14 VegasRick  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:06:56pm

re: #12 SasquatchOnSteroids

We're workin' on it.

I enjoy the time I spend with breast implants.

15 SasquatchOnSteroids  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:07:39pm

re: #14 VegasRick

I enjoy the time I spend with breast implants.

Hey, I'm sold on plastic.

16 [deleted]  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:08:05pm
17 spidly  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:08:28pm

re: #13 buzzsawmonkey

Hell with the animals--what about the Michigan Mushroom, the largest living thing on earth?

It will live another day as it adapted, becoming psilocybin free when threatened by Hippius Erectus

18 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:08:28pm

I am a native Californian. My mom is a native from Watsonville. Her mother was a native of San Jose. Her father was a native of Santa Maria, as were his father and grandfather.

All farmers / ranchers until my mom went into teaching. I now own a farm, but is a small one.

California is a place accustomed to drought. The stories go back very far prior to industrialization. The Coastal Sage that grows in Irvine is testament to the fact that the area is both drought prone and has native species that are well adapted to drought.

As for mustard, it is not a native plant as this NPR story about native plant recovery after the regional fire storms explains.

The dominant mustard that grows here was imported and introduced by state botanists and fire officials in the early and mid 20th century as a means of getting a fast growing plant to grow on slope that had been burned to slow erosion.

It does not surprise me that a non-native plant would evolve to become more drought tolerant like the natives. That does not either support nor refute Climate Change theory.

19 big steve  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:08:46pm

Ardent evolutionist here ... but I would strongly suspect that the individual variability from normal year to year weather in California areas subject to drought greatly exceeds the slight difference in average that global warming would have produced in 12 years. I would focus more on the mechanisms already built into plants (by long term evolution) to deal with yearly swings as an explanation.

20 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:10:11pm

Several dead thread flounce-offs in the last Palin thread, by the way.

21 Russkilitlover  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:10:47pm

Climate change? Or lack of water? Everyone who has ever touched a garden knows that you get smaller plants, fewer flowers, and fewer fruits/vegetables when water is cut back.

It's the water, stupid!

22 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:11:55pm

Before you dismiss the mustard seed example, please read the whole article because there's quite a bit more evidence than that.

23 Russkilitlover  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:13:05pm

re: #18 karmic_inquisitor

Actually, the mustard was brought over by the Spanish. They planted it all along El Camino Real as a road marker. Plus they liked their spice.

24 albusteve  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:14:56pm

re: #23 Russkilitlover

Actually, the mustard was brought over by the Spanish. They planted it all along El Camino Real as a road marker. Plus they liked their spice.

interesting...had never heard that...are you talking NM or CA?

25 researchok  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:16:11pm

Terrific article.

Global warming is real, of course. Any look at the changes in growing maps/zones over the last 50 years makes that clear.

As to whether or not warming is man made or a natural shift in climate is the real question.

26 Russkilitlover  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:16:15pm

re: #24 albusteve

interesting...had never heard that...are you talking NM or CA?

California - mission period.

27 brookly red  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:17:22pm

re: #11 buzzsawmonkey

Have breast augmentations progressed so far?

Not so much from climate change but the growth hormones in meat are having some interesting effects...

28 albusteve  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:17:51pm

re: #26 Russkilitlover

California - mission period.

well that doesn't count...
jus kidding

there is no mustard in NM that I know of, and Spanish influence here precedes that of CA

29 SixDegrees  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:18:53pm

I predict that people will have problems with this example because it sort of vaguely implies that evolutionary change is being forced by climate change - that is, that the climate is somehow having an impact on individuals, which sounds crazy - and is. It's a good example of somewhat sloppy science writing that's responsible for so many misunderstandings about evolution and other matters.

In fact, the variability in drought tolerance was already there in the existing plant population. The vast majority were those well adapted to a particular climatic regime, but there was always a spectrum of drought tolerance ranging from high to low, centered on the prevailing average.

As climates shift, the raw material for change is already sitting there waiting in the wings. Those marginal cases, say those that already possess greater drought tolerance, thrive as rain decreases while their not-so-tolerant brethren do not so well. It takes very little time for a population to make substantial shifts as pre-existing, normally rare variants are favored.

30 mfarmer1  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:18:56pm

Wow, maybe this is why we're finding all of those new species in Borneo and the Himalayas that didn't even exist a few years ago? Or maybe they've been there for awhile and we're so freaking arrogant that we naturally assumed that they must be new since we hadn't cataloged them previously.

Laugh all we want at Governor Stabenow "feeling" global warming, that's about where we are on both sides of this debate. It seems like we have theoretical gobbledygook computer models on one side and subjective gobbledygook on the other.

The polar ice caps did not envelop North America, we all didn't starve to death when the population hit 5 billion and in fact, we're fatter than ever and about to hit 7 billion, Amazon is still there and the rain forest version too, acid rain didn't destroy all the world's crops, we all didn't get AIDS by the year 2000, we didn't run out of oil, not even close, we made it through the Comets Kohoutek and Hale-Bopp shy of some nutjobs in San Diego, Y2K was a dud, and and the freaking world is not going to end in 2012 as stated by the Mayan Calendar designed by people not prophetic enough to even predict their own demise.

31 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:20:35pm

More on Field Mustard (Brassica rapa) from CalFlora -

[Link: www.calflora.org...]

"Brassica rapa, a dicot, is an annual herb that is not native to California; it was introduced from elsewhere and naturalized in the wild"

The page includes research citations regarding the non-native status.

32 spidly  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:21:00pm

re: #30 mfarmer1

Blaspheme. Repent now the end is nigh

33 albusteve  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:23:19pm

re: #32 spidly

Blaspheme. Repent now the end is nigh

until we get some nuclear power on line I don't take any of too serious...I'm ready for my demise

34 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:23:22pm

re: #29 SixDegrees

I predict that people will have problems with this example because it sort of vaguely implies that evolutionary change is being forced by climate change - that is, that the climate is somehow having an impact on individuals, which sounds crazy - and is. It's a good example of somewhat sloppy science writing that's responsible for so many misunderstandings about evolution and other matters.

I didn't read it that way at all. The example I quoted is very clear that a decade of adaptation had taken place between the two cultivated groups of seeds.

35 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:24:34pm

re: #23 Russkilitlover

Actually, the mustard was brought over by the Spanish. They planted it all along El Camino Real as a road marker. Plus they liked their spice.

That is the Black Mustard, IIRC. I have 8 acres of different mustard varieties that are attacking my recently planted grapes.

I am going for an organic vineyard, so I have to battle these the old way. It was a botanist from the local USDA soil conservation (NRCS) office that showed me which mustards were the ones introduced for erosion control. I am looking through google images to try to nail those down.

36 SixDegrees  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:25:15pm

re: #25 researchok

Terrific article.

Global warming is real, of course. Any look at the changes in growing maps/zones over the last 50 years makes that clear.

As to whether or not warming is man made or a natural shift in climate is the real question.

Does it? I'm not aware of any shifts in our Midwestern region, and I've run across some older climatic zone maps. Also, 50 years ago and earlier there was a thriving citrus industry in northern Florida and even southern Georgia; it's gone now, as the frost line has pushed southward. I don't think citrus is grown much north of Tampa these days. One would have expected the opposite: a northward migration of the citrus industry, which is severely constrained by the occurrence of frost.

Also, there have been several different climatic zone rating systems used over time, and there have been changes in the methodology used to compile them even within a given system.

I'd be interested if you have references to the use of climate zone maps as evidence for climate change. I looked into this a few years ago, and found the situation difficult to untangle owing to shifts in methodology, and where corrections could be applied they seemed to suggest a very stable mapping without much shift over time.

37 Russkilitlover  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:27:34pm

re: #35 karmic_inquisitor

That is the Black Mustard, IIRC. I have 8 acres of different mustard varieties that are attacking my recently planted grapes.

I am going for an organic vineyard, so I have to battle these the old way. It was a botanist from the local USDA soil conservation (NRCS) office that showed me which mustards were the ones introduced for erosion control. I am looking through google images to try to nail those down.

You're right - it's the Black Mustard that the Spanish brought. It's very tasty in salads or munched if hiking. I took a culinary course and our final had to be an original dish. I made a salad out of wild Southern California plants and grasses and used a lot of Black Mustard. (Salad was a hit and I got an A.)

38 bagua  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:28:34pm

Has there been a study on the effects of Global Warming on Ketchup yet?


/I could live without mustard but any threat to the Ketchup plant and I'm changing sides on this debate!

39 [deleted]  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:29:52pm
40 SixDegrees  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:30:23pm

re: #34 Charles

I didn't read it that way at all. The example I quoted is very clear that a decade of adaptation had taken place between the two cultivated groups of seeds.

Sure - I got that part. I'm pointing out that there's no new genetic information in the more recent population, just a shift in prevalence over time in what was already there.

I just like to be explicit about what's actually taking place. When you say things like "The plants adapted..." it sounds as though the genetic changes seen were induced by some external factor - like climate in this case. But that isn't true at all. The genetic variation was already sitting there in the population, and the shift in climate shifted the point of successful adaptation within that existing variation - it didn't introduce the variation, though.

41 opnion  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:30:46pm

re: #25 researchok

Terrific article.

Global warming is real, of course. Any look at the changes in growing maps/zones over the last 50 years makes that clear.

As to whether or not warming is man made or a natural shift in climate is the real question.

I dont know that the man made contribution can ever be proven, much less the percentage of contribution.
It would help people to look at Climate Change more crtically if Al Gore dialed it back & the Hollywood types did not set themselves up as experts on the subject.

42 Big Steve  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:30:55pm

re: #22 Charles

Before you dismiss the mustard seed example, please read the whole article because there's quite a bit more evidence than that.

I have. As someone was quoted in the article species

have started evolving due to global warming.

My guess is that species have never stopped evolving to deal with local climate change. All reputable data indicates that while we are at a high end of normal climate temperatures, that the variability (standard deviation) over the last 40,000 years exceeds the short term changes we are experiencing now. What strikes me as why anyone would be surprised that species wouldn't already have mechanisms, whether they be plasticity or genetic, built in by long term evolution, that would allow them to respond quickly to changing conditions. The mustard seeds have had 12 generations to respond. Some studies have shown that whole populations of humans can change racial characteristics like skin color in 500 years which would be somewhere between 15 to 20 generations.

I think the experiment is a wonderful affirmation of evolution. I am less certain it is an affirmation of global warming.

43 The_Vig  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:31:57pm

It seems to me that we have nothing to worry about then. As climate changes, plants evolve to deal with the change. Life goes on. I am off to set California on fire...Oh wait, thats already going on, just like evolution.

44 friarstale  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:32:22pm

what if plants are able to adjust temselves every frickin' year just based on the previous year's conditions?

and global warming has been happening for thousands of years

I live in upstate NY, which used to be under a mile of ice, and that is why I say that man made global warming is and has been and will continue to be complete BS

45 Achilles Tang  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:32:30pm

If this issue (rapid adaptation) is intended as a creationist rebuttal I think it is not effective for the simple reason that it has already been addressed. Specifically, God (or ID aliens) designed life to cope with planned (or unplanned) changes in environment from the beginning.

On the other hand, evolution has been there before and dormant/repressed genes have had plenty of time to become established in the genome to give an advantage to all those earlier unwanted mutants that were otherwise weeded out yesterday.

Science and thought is such a malleable concept when viewed through binoculars, backwards, is it not?

46 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:33:25pm

But there is no evolution, and there is no climate change.

So how can one influence another?

47 Diamond Bullet  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:34:12pm

Maybe this is too obvious, but does being in a cold, dry incubator for 7 years affect plant growth?

Given the fact that, say, expert cherry tree watchers in D.C. still mostly guesstimate as to when a given tree will flower from year to year and whether it will "peak" with its fellows, I'm not sure we can assume that different flowering times in different samples automatically means "climate change induced evolution." Now if one batch of mustard plants is throwing little spears at the other one, you might be on to something.

48 Digital Display  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:34:43pm

Good evening Charles: The daily Galaxy has been reporting a new study by a team Of MIT Scientist concerning Global Warming...
Surprising results...
[Link: www.dailygalaxy.com...]

49 Gus  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:34:49pm

These evolutionary changes can be seen as the smoking gun.

50 Kragar  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:35:34pm

So I see one example from 1999 and another from 2009.

THATS A TEN YEAR GAP!

51 opnion  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:35:48pm

re: #44 friarstale

what if plants are able to adjust temselves every frickin' year just based on the previous year's conditions?

and global warming has been happening for thousands of years

I live in upstate NY, which used to be under a mile of ice, and that is why I say that man made global warming is and has been and will continue to be complete BS

If the planet is warming, it will just do that & it does not really value our
opnion. Warming & cooling periods have taken place without us.
The only question is to we contribute & to what extent.

52 beens21  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:36:28pm

there is only one natural lake in Texas, Caddo Lake. All the early major cities grew up next to the Trinity, Brazos, Red, Nueces, Colorado and other rivers. Without reservoirs and air conditioning, the population of Texas would be probably less than 1 million.Droughts coming, build reservoirs, although the enviros sue to stop them, floods, build levees, gets warmer, get a/c.Oceans rise 10 feet, then you might want to live at 12 ft above sea level.When ins. cos. no longer insure property at 10 ft to 0 sea level, and Al Gore gives up his houseboat and moves to a green home, I may begin to believe in all the predicted catastrophes.

53 Achilles Tang  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:36:50pm

re: #46 Cato the Elder

But there is no evolution, and there is no climate change.

So how can one influence another?

No influence is required. It is all in the plan.

54 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:37:01pm

re: #22 Charles

Before you dismiss the mustard seed example, please read the whole article because there's quite a bit more evidence than that.

Not dismissing the article.

I am dismissing the example. I am sure that any non native plant that thrives here in California will quickly adapt to the environment to flourish further.

Which places native species at a disadvantage.

Prior to the entire area burning, I had my Boy Scout troop help pull mustard from Poway's Blue Sky preserve each year. It is thankless work but necessary so that the native species aren't crowded out.

On another note, I would expect to see a similar article on the rapid change in Eucalyptus varieties here (introduced from Australia by railroads trying to find a fast growing, drought tolerant tree to use for railroad ties - but wood twists as it dries rendering it useless) as they fight off the longhorned beetle. Some new trees are showing resistance to the beetle that was introduced to California in 1985.

[Link: wwwlibrary.csustan.edu...]

Evolution is powerful.

55 Ojoe  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:37:03pm

Life is not stupid.

56 bagua  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:38:17pm

My theory is that the cosmic nexus of both Evolution and Climate Change in the same thread is predictive of some freak outs as this thread develops,…

someone should offer a sharp refutation without reading the article to start the ball rolling, or has that already occurred several times?

57 JacksonTn  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:38:24pm

re: #48 HoosierHoops

Good evening Charles: The daily Galaxy has been reporting a new study by a team Of MIT Scientist concerning Global Warming...
Surprising results...
[Link: www.dailygalaxy.com...]

HH ... good evening ... I would use the original article to link as the comments say at the site linked ... the headline is misleading ... MIT ARTICLE:

[Link: web.mit.edu...]

58 SixDegrees  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:38:25pm

re: #42 Big Steve


I think the experiment is a wonderful affirmation of evolution.

I agree.

59 Big Steve  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:38:30pm

re: #47 Diamond Bullet

Maybe this is too obvious, but does being in a cold, dry incubator for 7 years affect plant growth?

Given the fact that, say, expert cherry tree watchers in D.C. still mostly guesstimate as to when a given tree will flower from year to year and whether it will "peak" with its fellows, I'm not sure we can assume that different flowering times in different samples automatically means "climate change induced evolution." Now if one batch of mustard plants is throwing little spears at the other one, you might be on to something.

Down in my area if you want a bumper crop of Texas bluebonnets in the spring you have to take the seeds, put them in your freezer for a week, then get the out and whack them with a hammer. For some reason this causes them to sprout better. In the real world, bluebonnet seeds sit dormant in the soil for years until a particular seed has had enough cycles to rough up the shell so it feels like sprouting. So you might be right, there needs to be control that proves that the cold storage of the cold storage of the seeds doesn't actually help them.

60 Gus  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:38:33pm

re: #1 buzzsawmonkey

I'm watching for the huge thumbs that are sure to evolve as a result of text messaging.

Huge thumbs with tiny thumb tip.

You ever see the size of the keyboard on a Blackberry?

/

61 researchok  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:38:50pm

re: #36 SixDegrees

Does it? I'm not aware of any shifts in our Midwestern region, and I've run across some older climatic zone maps. Also, 50 years ago and earlier there was a thriving citrus industry in northern Florida and even southern Georgia; it's gone now, as the frost line has pushed southward. I don't think citrus is grown much north of Tampa these days. One would have expected the opposite: a northward migration of the citrus industry, which is severely constrained by the occurrence of frost.

Also, there have been several different climatic zone rating systems used over time, and there have been changes in the methodology used to compile them even within a given system.

I'd be interested if you have references to the use of climate zone maps as evidence for climate change. I looked into this a few years ago, and found the situation difficult to untangle owing to shifts in methodology, and where corrections could be applied they seemed to suggest a very stable mapping without much shift over time.

See this for starters

This too, along similar lines.

There are other references I can dig up..

62 Digital Display  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:39:26pm

re: #55 Ojoe

Life is not stupid.

I hope not cause all my parts seem to be in the right place...
/

63 VegasRick  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:39:43pm

re: #55 Ojoe

Life is not stupid.

Some people are though.

64 Ojoe  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:40:36pm

One of the ideas about how evolution works is called "Punctuated Equilibrium", and it says that a species can remain stable for a long time & then if it needs to, change rapidly.

This is why, if true, that transitional fossil forms are sometimes hard to find: the transition took place quickly.

65 spidly  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:40:42pm

re: #55 Ojoe

Life is not stupid.

direct evidence to the contrary

66 Ojoe  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:41:19pm

re: #62 HoosierHoops

Mine too.

ROFLMAO

67 Ojoe  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:41:53pm

re: #65 spidly

Who's that, Bob Dylan?

68 Russkilitlover  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:43:35pm

re: #67 Ojoe

Who's that, Bob Dylan?

Sean "Numbnuts" Penn.

69 Ojoe  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:44:23pm

re: #68 Russkilitlover

OK

I am not very well versed in popular culture.

70 VegasRick  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:44:50pm

re: #68 Russkilitlover

Sean "Numbnuts" Penn.

I know some Numbnuts that are now offended by your post!

71 Digital Display  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:44:54pm

re: #57 JacksonTn

HH ... good evening ... I would use the original article to link as the comments say at the site linked ... the headline is misleading ... MIT ARTICLE:

[Link: web.mit.edu...]

You know..I almost wanted to ask this..But for the last year I get the feeling a pure science site like the Daily Galaxy has been increasingly politically correct in the postings and threads..
But they normally just report science...But...
What do you think?

72 [deleted]  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:44:57pm
73 opnion  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:45:33pm

re: #70 VegasRick

I know some Numbnuts that are now offended by your post!

Numnuts unite!

74 VegasRick  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:45:48pm

re: #69 Ojoe

OK

I am not very well versed in popular culture.

Popular or culture do not pertain to that POS.

75 Ojoe  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:46:09pm

re: #54 karmic_inquisitor

Eucalyptus also planted on the north coast of Calif. to grow fuel for the steam schooners, old timers here assert.

76 itellu3times  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:46:28pm

re: #64 Ojoe

One of the ideas about how evolution works is called "Punctuated Equilibrium", and it says that a species can remain stable for a long time & then if it needs to, change rapidly.

This idea is heavily frowned on in most scientific circles.

77 VegasRick  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:46:47pm

re: #73 opnion

Numnuts unite!

I'm in!!! Oh, WAIT!!!

78 MacGregor  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:46:57pm

Happy Friday Lizards! Thanks to those who pointed out I was becoming overbearing in the agw dept.

I'm one who believes that evolution is driven by environment. This proves its faster than I thought. I think it's reasonable to say more life blossoms during inter-glacial periods while life that has evolved through glacial cold would perish more easily. Maybe this is the reason, iirc, CO2 peaks before each glaciation. Nature's resiliency is astounding.

79 JacksonTn  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:47:18pm

re: #71 HoosierHoops

You know..I almost wanted to ask this..But for the last year I get the feeling a pure science site like the Daily Galaxy has been increasingly politically correct in the postings and threads..
But they normally just report science...But...
What do you think?

HH ... Hahahhaha ... I have no friggin clue ... I was just reading the article and noticed that they were talking about a kinda old article anyway and some commenters said it was misleading so I read the article at MIT ... and it does appear misleading ... the article is from Oct 2008 I believe ...

80 Achilles Tang  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:47:31pm

re: #54 karmic_inquisitor

On another note, I would expect to see a similar article on the rapid change in Eucalyptus varieties here (introduced from Australia by railroads trying to find a fast growing, drought tolerant tree to use for railroad ties - but wood twists as it dries rendering it useless) as they fight off the longhorned beetle. Some new trees are showing resistance to the beetle that was introduced to California in 1985.

[Link: wwwlibrary.csustan.edu...]

Evolution is powerful.

Most countries now use cement railroad ties, which will outlast anything produced by nature. I think this evolutionary direction influenced by people (if that is what you meant) is a dead end. Go Beatles anyway!!

81 Russkilitlover  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:47:33pm

re: #75 Ojoe

Eucalyptus also planted on the north coast of Calif. to grow fuel for the steam schooners, old timers here assert.

Then there's the Russian Thistle. Nasty intruder - edible artichoke, though.

82 [deleted]  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:47:36pm
83 SixDegrees  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:48:04pm

re: #59 Big Steve

Down in my area if you want a bumper crop of Texas bluebonnets in the spring you have to take the seeds, put them in your freezer for a week, then get the out and whack them with a hammer. For some reason this causes them to sprout better. In the real world, bluebonnet seeds sit dormant in the soil for years until a particular seed has had enough cycles to rough up the shell so it feels like sprouting. So you might be right, there needs to be control that proves that the cold storage of the cold storage of the seeds doesn't actually help them.

Some seeds require a certain period of time below some threshold temperature in order to germinate. It's an adaptation to avoid germinating during an early winter thaw, only to be frozen solid - and killed. Bluebonnet, as I recall, is one such plant. Not sure about mustard, but if it requires this - it's called cold stratification - than the free-range examples must also have been exposed to such temperatures, or they wouldn't have germinated.

If seed can survive freezing at all, it can typically survive it for a very long period of time without harm. Seeds extracted from permafrost have been germinated after having been frozen for thousands of years. Viability dwindles over time, though, with the percentage of successful germinations declining over time.

I don't think this is a valid objection. Apart from germination, which was already discussed, any benefit to frozen seeds of this common plant would have been noted long ago and taken into account.

84 Ojoe  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:48:15pm

re: #78 MacGregor

Resiliency hell, nature has an awful energy & is hard to keep at bay. That's what this country boy sees.

85 albusteve  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:49:16pm

re: #82 buzzsawmonkey

Eucalyptus was planted in pre-independence Israel to drain the malarial swamps, since the trees are very thirsty indeed.

Now, apparently, the eucalyptus trees are being removed--because their function as swamp drainage was deleterious to what were natural wetlands.

Go figure.

wax on
wax off
such is the Zen of the Merry-Go-Round

86 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:49:34pm

re: #1 buzzsawmonkey

I'm watching for the huge small, multi-headed thumbs that are sure to evolve as a result of text messaging.

FTFY

87 opnion  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:49:50pm

re: #77 VegasRick

I'm in!!! Oh, WAIT!!!

I am sooo in!

88 Ojoe  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:49:53pm

re: #82 buzzsawmonkey

We used to say "pestilential swamp".

In Trevelyan's (sp) history of England you will find that in very early times about a third of the place was swampy/boggy.

Attitudes have changed.

89 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:50:03pm

I suspect that as a professor in ecology and evolutionary biology, Weis is probably well aware of the effects of freezing and unfreezing seeds like this. It's what he does.

90 Achilles Tang  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:50:06pm

re: #82 buzzsawmonkey

Eucalyptus was planted in pre-independence Israel to drain the malarial swamps, since the trees are very thirsty indeed.

Now, apparently, the eucalyptus trees are being removed--because their function as swamp drainage was deleterious to what were natural wetlands.

Go figure.

Israel?? You haven't been to Florida have you?

91 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:50:45pm

re: #82 buzzsawmonkey

Eucalyptus was planted in pre-independence Israel to drain the malarial swamps, since the trees are very thirsty indeed.

Now, apparently, the eucalyptus trees are being removed--because their function as swamp drainage was deleterious to what were natural wetlands.

Go figure.

I believe that's called sensible agronomic flexibility.

92 opnion  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:51:11pm

re: #68 Russkilitlover

Sean "Numbnuts" Penn.

"Oh Mr. Haaand" Real typecasting

93 albusteve  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:51:32pm

I'll be ready...

94 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:51:35pm

re: #20 Charles

Several dead thread flounce-offs in the last Palin thread, by the way.

Saw those. "Syncophants"? Are they like "honcos"?

95 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:51:56pm

re: #75 Ojoe

Eucalyptus also planted on the north coast of Calif. to grow fuel for the steam schooners, old timers here assert.

Interesting. Down here there wasn't much in the way of timbers to work with.

Something that "sounds right" but I never bothered to verify was a claim that I heard from the former monsignor at the San Diego Mission. He said the original mission (what is there now is not original) had a very narrow church because there were few long timbers that one could harvest from the area. he claimed that as one goes farther north in the mission chain, the churches get wider and wider (with some exceptions in dry areas like at Mission San Antonio) because taller trees were available.

96 [deleted]  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:52:06pm
97 Achilles Tang  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:52:22pm

re: #64 Ojoe

One of the ideas about how evolution works is called "Punctuated Equilibrium", and it says that a species can remain stable for a long time & then if it needs to, change rapidly.

This is why, if true, that transitional fossil forms are sometimes hard to find: the transition took place quickly.

Probably because they had already evolved earlier at the Darwinian pace, but not forgotten.

98 SixDegrees  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:52:37pm

re: #61 researchok

See this for starters

This too, along similar lines.

There are other references I can dig up..

I'd have to dig around myself, but it seems to me that the USDA changed their methodology, which was the subject of much gnashing of teeth at the time. Don't recall the time frame or if was another mapping system - there are several. If I have time, I'll see if I can find the references again, although when I looked into this it was at the library, before there was much on the Internet.

99 Ojoe  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:52:53pm

re: #83 SixDegrees

A lotus seed from a coal bed in China was germinated IIRC from reading National Geographic as a boy.

BBL

100 itellu3times  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:52:54pm

I don't think this kind of variation counts as evolution.

First, in most evolutionary scenarios, there is a long, stable period in which "neutral variation" takes place, a species' genome "spreads out" to include a lot of variations that don't have any particular benefit at the time, but also no huge penalty. This is sort of in preparation for whatever the future may hold.

So, this kind of variation in the mustard, might have evolved over the last umpty-ump years, and is now being selected for.

Second, many species have been through the mill many times, and so the genome looks for (forgive the anthropomorphisms, they are not meant as they sound) environmental signals, and switches on and off features that correspond. Switching that selection on and off, is not evolution as such, the genome goes unchanged.

Third, there can be immediate selection. The seeds just gathered came from plants that have already survived a drought, so of course they were from plants better adapted. This is just an application of the two preceeding points.

The test would be to take these small plants, give them more water for a generation or two, and see if they switch back.

Better yet, sequence the genomes of the two sets of seeds and do a direct comparison - we do have that technology today - tho it's not cheap.

101 [deleted]  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:52:59pm
102 jvic  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:53:11pm

The Weis et al article and others by him are here.

They were not hard to find. I didn't search for the others Zimmer mentions. Lazy writing by Zimmer, IMO. I'll withdraw that remark if directed to Zimmer hyperlinks that I overlooked.

103 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:53:15pm

re: #80 Naso Tang

Most countries now use cement railroad ties, which will outlast anything produced by nature. I think this evolutionary direction influenced by people (if that is what you meant) is a dead end. Go Beatles anyway!!

LOL. My mastery of spelling proves useful again.

104 Russkilitlover  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:53:31pm

re: #95 karmic_inquisitor

Interesting. Down here there wasn't much in the way of timbers to work with.

Something that "sounds right" but I never bothered to verify was a claim that I heard from the former monsignor at the San Diego Mission. He said the original mission (what is there now is not original) had a very narrow church because there were few long timbers that one could harvest from the area. he claimed that as one goes farther north in the mission chain, the churches get wider and wider (with some exceptions in dry areas like at Mission San Antonio) because taller trees were available.

Yeah, that whole adobe thing for a monumentally huge (for its time) church didn't work out well for the folks at Mass in the San Juan Capistrano mission. St. Pancakes, all of them.

105 SixDegrees  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:53:35pm

re: #89 Charles

I suspect that as a professor in ecology and evolutionary biology, Weis is probably well aware of the effects of freezing and unfreezing seeds like this. It's what he does.

That would be my guess, too. There's an astonishingly huge body of work on this very thing.

106 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:53:43pm

re: #96 buzzsawmonkey

I was trapped there for three vile years. Flying roaches, footlong grasshoppers, weather forecasts where "50% chance of rain" means it will rain 50% of the time.

The lizards were cute, though.

Florida: the big, swinging, unwashed, syphilitic dick of the world.

107 Cathypop  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:54:03pm

re: #78 MacGregor

Happy Friday Lizards! Thanks to those who pointed out I was becoming overbearing in the agw dept.

I'm one who believes that evolution is driven by environment. This proves its faster than I thought. I think it's reasonable to say more life blossoms during inter-glacial periods while life that has evolved through glacial cold would perish more easily. Maybe this is the reason, iirc, CO2 peaks before each glaciation. Nature's resiliency is astounding.


Mother Nature is an amazing tough old woman!

108 JacksonTn  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:54:05pm

We have accidentally frozen pear seeds before ... we usually keep them in large refrigerators if it gets a little too warm before we plant them ... we have many refrigerators full of seed and someone put a bunch in a freezer by mistake ... fortunately for us they still grew ... but I would not chance it all the time ... of course not the same thing as this stuff ...

109 spidly  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:54:36pm

re: #81 Russkilitlover

Then there's the Russian Thistle. Nasty intruder - edible artichoke, though.

American beachgrass planted in the Pacific Northwest by the WPA. Not on only is it invasive, but has attracted Meanius Greenius and they've shut people out of large parts of the coast because the grass also attracted the snowy plover who like to nest in it now.

110 Erik The Red  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:54:45pm

re: #96 buzzsawmonkey

I was trapped there for three vile years. Flying roaches, footlong grasshoppers, weather forecasts where "50% chance of rain" means it will rain 50% of the time.

The lizards were cute, though.

Come on buzz, don't knock my new home. Plus the bugs are smaller than they are in Africa. The only thing that I can say is NOT bigger and better in America is the bugs. :)

111 albusteve  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:55:19pm

re: #106 Cato the Elder

Florida: the big, swinging, unwashed, syphilitic dick of the world.

whoa...you have such a pleasurable, positive vibe

112 Ojoe  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:55:24pm

re: #95 karmic_inquisitor

True.


The timbers for the San Gabriel mission were cut in the mountains you see on the Towercam & dragged by horse to the mission, debarking & smoothing them on the way.


Mission roof timbers came from these mountains.

Got to get back to work, BBL.

113 rightymouse  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:55:39pm

re: #101 buzzsawmonkey

"Pestilential swamp." Oh, I love the English language.

Pestilential. A grinding thought.

114 SixDegrees  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:55:42pm

re: #100 itellu3times

I don't think this kind of variation counts as evolution.

Yeah, it counts. Evolution is simply a shift in the genetic makeup of a population - it doesn't have to include the introduction of new genetic variants, just a change in the frequency of existing variants measured over the population as a whole is sufficient.

115 Locker  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:55:49pm

Very cool article. Just saw this one recently on Physorg:

[Link: Physorg.com...]

When a plant population shifts from being predominantly hummingbird-pollinated where flowers are red, to hawkmoth-pollinated, natural selection works to change the flower color to white or yellow, he explained.

116 [deleted]  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:56:12pm
117 VegasRick  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:56:27pm

re: #111 albusteve

whoa...you have such a pleasurable, positive vibe

And I thought that YOU were negative!
///

118 Aye Pod  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:56:57pm

Very interesting to see adaptation taking place over such a short time scale.

Damn plant kingdom has obviously been listening to Al Gore./

119 Achilles Tang  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:57:02pm

re: #96 buzzsawmonkey

I was trapped there for three vile years. Flying roaches, footlong grasshoppers, weather forecasts where "50% chance of rain" means it will rain 50% of the time.

The lizards were cute, though.

Them's Anoles to ya'll, and 50% chance of rain means 50% of the time it will rain 100% of the time, otherwise it's only a 25% chance.

;=>

120 JohnH  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:57:18pm

They're still mustard plants, right?

121 Erik The Red  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:57:25pm

re: #106 Cato the Elder

Florida: the big, swinging, unwashed, syphilitic dick of the world.

Where the Fuck did that come from? You are a real first class prick lately.

122 Achilles Tang  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:58:20pm

re: #101 buzzsawmonkey

"Pestilential swamp." Oh, I love the English language.

According to the MSM these days the term is "snake infested", but what do they know of English.

123 opnion  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:58:53pm

All this talk about plants reminds me of seeing Little Shop of Horrors with Rick moranis years ago. Remember Audry 2? Not a very nice freaking plant.
Don't turn your back on a plant unless you know him.

124 brookly red  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:58:59pm

re: #121 Erik The Red

Where the Fuck did that come from? You are a real first class prick lately.

/I blame the change on the climate...

125 [deleted]  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:59:03pm
126 Achilles Tang  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:59:27pm

re: #116 buzzsawmonkey

Well, I did not experience the syphilis, I'm glad to say. But the happiest day of my life was when I received word that I'd missed passing the Florida bar exam by about 3 points, because it meant that I would never, ever be tempted to return.

Oooh, that's mean.

127 VegasRick  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 3:59:34pm

re: #121 Erik The Red

Where the Fuck did that come from? You are a real first class prick lately.

FTFY.
BTW - Born and raised (mostly) in Miami. The flying roaches are a bit much but I always loved the place.

128 albusteve  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:00:08pm

re: #117 VegasRick

And I thought that YOU were negative!
///

well...
well
ah...

129 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:00:19pm

re: #106 Cato the Elder

Did I say that out loud?

I was, of course, referring to climate and geographic shape, not people.

130 Digital Display  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:00:26pm

re: #125 buzzsawmonkey

Gotta go beat sundown. 'Bye, gang.

You are a treasure Buzz...
God has shown you grace and wisdom...Thanks for sharing it..

131 JacksonTn  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:00:35pm

re: #127 VegasRick

FTFY.
BTW - Born and raised (mostly) in Miami. The flying roaches are a bit much but I always loved the place.

VR ... oh, man ... I just ate the best Cuban food down in Miami a little over a month ago ...

132 VegasRick  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:01:01pm

re: #128 albusteve

well...
well
ah...


LOLOLOLOL!!!
Sorry I have but 1 to give!

133 Achilles Tang  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:01:03pm

re: #110 Erik The Red

Come on buzz, don't knock my new home. Plus the bugs are smaller than they are in Africa. The only thing that I can say is NOT bigger and better in America is the bugs. :)

Have you ever been to Georgia?

134 [deleted]  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:01:50pm
135 Seax  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:01:56pm

Of course plant seeds get effected by freezing
when held in storage.
This of course effects the next generation and is
of course due to 'numbnuts'...

136 brookly red  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:02:02pm

re: #123 opnion

All this talk about plants reminds me of seeing Little Shop of Horrors with Rick moranis years ago. Remember Audry 2? Not a very nice freaking plant.
Don't turn your back on a plant unless you know him.

thats what they say about the audiance at O's townhalls...

137 VegasRick  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:02:04pm

re: #131 JacksonTn

VR ... oh, man ... I just ate the best Cuban food down in Miami a little over a month ago ...

LOVE the flat Cuban sandwiches!!!

138 researchok  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:02:22pm

re: #98 SixDegrees

I'd have to dig around myself, but it seems to me that the USDA changed their methodology, which was the subject of much gnashing of teeth at the time. Don't recall the time frame or if was another mapping system - there are several. If I have time, I'll see if I can find the references again, although when I looked into this it was at the library, before there was much on the Internet.

Let me know.

I do know there have been similar ag map changes in Europe.

139 retief_99  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:03:01pm

I don't see how evolution can take place in a bucket in a cooler. My understanding of evolution is that successive reproductions produce a genetic change that results in a plant or animal changing it's genetic structure. This seems to be more an adaptive ability that was already present in the mustard plant that allows it to adapt to different climate conditions within a certain range. Their are many of these adaptations in nature. Coyotes will have larger litters when there is an explosion in prey animal populations. Conversely smaller litters when prey is scarce. How does the coyote know there are more or less prey animals in any given season? Obviously there are some things about evolution we do not understand, but I am having trouble believing that evolution took place during the conditions the mustard seeds were stored in.

140 AuntAcid  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:03:04pm

"...forcing surprisingly rapid evolutionary changes in some species..."


All children be well behaved and self-motivated, men will be handsome and women will be...fetching in so many ways.

141 spidly  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:03:28pm

re: #120 JohnH

They're still mustard plants, right?

yes, but can no longer be used for bangers or brats. Only suitable for the disgusting and ultimately un-kosher Cheese Dog.

142 itellu3times  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:03:50pm

re: #114 SixDegrees

Yeah, it counts. Evolution is simply a shift in the genetic makeup of a population - it doesn't have to include the introduction of new genetic variants, just a change in the frequency of existing variants measured over the population as a whole is sufficient.

One can argue the point.

You do note that I suggest there may have been no change to the genome at all, just a change in its expression due to environmental triggers.

And it hardly gets interesting until it's gone far enough to create a new species, defined as no longer able to breed with the original (esp if the original dies out!). Even most creationists grant minor variations.

143 albusteve  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:04:16pm

people in Florida do not read...
I love LGF

144 itellu3times  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:04:48pm

re: #139 retief_99

I don't see how evolution can take place in a bucket in a cooler. My understanding of evolution is that successive reproductions produce a genetic change that results in a plant or animal changing it's genetic structure. This seems to be more an adaptive ability that was already present in the mustard plant that allows it to adapt to different climate conditions within a certain range. Their are many of these adaptations in nature. Coyotes will have larger litters when there is an explosion in prey animal populations. Conversely smaller litters when prey is scarce. How does the coyote know there are more or less prey animals in any given season? Obviously there are some things about evolution we do not understand, but I am having trouble believing that evolution took place during the conditions the mustard seeds were stored in.

nobody said the ones in the cooler changed, they suggest the ones in the field now are different from the ones in the field then.

145 JacksonTn  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:05:10pm

re: #143 albusteve

people in Florida do not read...
I love LGF

albusteve ... Florida is really kinda like three states in one ...

146 itellu3times  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:06:11pm

re: #120 JohnH

They're still mustard plants, right?

mustardis irvinus nanoonanoo

147 Achilles Tang  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:06:15pm

re: #134 buzzsawmonkey

Not if you knew what it was like living in a place where there are no bookstores because nobody reads.

I understand that in the intervening decades the inhabitants of South Florida have learned to walk erect and wear shoes, and that some minimal appurtenances of civilization have made inroads.

My memories of the place, however, are not particularly happy, save for the taste of Cuban cafe con leche and one remaining friendship.

Actually, most people in Florida these days didn't originate there, so you may have a point.

148 SixDegrees  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:07:11pm

re: #142 itellu3times

One can argue the point.

You do note that I suggest there may have been no change to the genome at all, just a change in its expression due to environmental triggers.

And it hardly gets interesting until it's gone far enough to create a new species, defined as no longer able to breed with the original (esp if the original dies out!). Even most creationists grant minor variations.

New species are certainly one result of evolution. But they are not it's only product. The accepted definition is simply that of a change in a population's genetic makeup - there's no distinction made between large changes (the addition or subtraction of genetic information) and small changes, such as as a simple shift in frequency of certain genetic elements. It's all evolution.

149 albusteve  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:07:13pm

re: #145 JacksonTn

albusteve ... Florida is really kinda like three states in one ...

I like passing through...it's America!...
I see no reason to trash it like (where does Cato live?)

150 AuntAcid  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:07:48pm

re: #145 JacksonTn

albusteve ... Florida is really kinda like three states in one ...

"vegetative" and "denial" and...

151 retief_99  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:08:01pm

re: #144 itellu3times

It's early here, only had one cup of coffee

152 Digital Display  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:08:15pm

re: #145 JacksonTn

albusteve ... Florida is really kinda like three states in one ...

I'm just smart enough to know this...Never diss a state in the Union..All 50 states are proud and rightly so...
Never diss a state...Trash a person if you must...Trash the politics if you will...
Never bad mouth a State

153 researchok  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:08:19pm

re: #148 SixDegrees

New species are certainly one result of evolution. But they are not it's only product. The accepted definition is simply that of a change in a population's genetic makeup - there's no distinction made between large changes (the addition or subtraction of genetic information) and small changes, such as as a simple shift in frequency of certain genetic elements. It's all evolution.

Check this out, re longer growing seasons in Canada.

Fascinating stuff.

154 Randall Gross  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:08:34pm

Since any given mustard plant has many seeds, the ones depositing those seeds at best climate moment would become predominant very quickly. I don't see much controversy here.

155 JacksonTn  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:08:41pm

re: #149 albusteve

I like passing through...it's America!...
I see no reason to trash it like (where does Cato live?)

albusteve ... I am not sure but "I betcha" it is someplace "special" ... Flora-Bama is a rocking place ..

156 itellu3times  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:09:43pm

re: #148 SixDegrees

New species are certainly one result of evolution. But they are not it's only product. The accepted definition is simply that of a change in a population's genetic makeup - there's no distinction made between large changes (the addition or subtraction of genetic information) and small changes, such as as a simple shift in frequency of certain genetic elements. It's all evolution.

Then there is "evolution" between each generation, unless your kids are clones?

Seems a little too permissive to me.

157 albusteve  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:10:11pm

re: #152 HoosierHoops

I'm just smart enough to know this...Never diss a state in the Union..All 50 states are proud and rightly so...
Never diss a state...Trash a person if you must...Trash the politics if you will...
Never bad mouth a State

some people need to get out more...

158 spidly  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:10:46pm

re: #153 researchok

Check this out, re longer growing seasons in Canada.

Fascinating stuff.

While you read about reproductive flexibility...

159 Digital Display  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:11:24pm

re: #157 albusteve

some people need to get out more...

We do you mean?

160 albusteve  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:11:31pm

re: #155 JacksonTn

albusteve ... I am not sure but "I betcha" it is someplace "special" ... Flora-Bama is a rocking place ..

hell yeah!...I love Alabama, some hard working, hard partying folks down there

161 itellu3times  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:12:06pm

re: #151 retief_99

It's early here, only had one cup of coffee

Maybe you should select for a bigger cup.
/

162 Digital Display  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:12:33pm

re: #159 HoosierHoops

We do you mean?

No I meant to post...Steve...What do you mean?
/Blame spellcheck..It's a reported bug...

163 Randall Gross  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:12:34pm

To me this isn't as strong a demonstration of evolution the theory but rather a supporting part of it. This clearly shows how climatic change can quickly accentuate one adaptation over another through natural selection in a population.

164 albusteve  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:12:36pm

re: #159 HoosierHoops

We do you mean?

Florida haters...be dissin Mickey Mouse and NASA

165 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:12:41pm

Until such time as Joe Biden leaves the national scene there is nothing wrong with mocking Delaware.

166 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:12:49pm

re: #160 albusteve

hell yeah!...I love Alabama, some hard working, hard partying folks down there

My son married an Alabama girl. She is just the sweetest thing ever. They are moving to Huntsville so she can be close to her folks.

167 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:13:12pm

re: #149 albusteve

I like passing through...it's America!...
I see no reason to trash it like (where does Cato live?)

Currently in a different Blue State antigun taxaholic murder-ridden near-bankrupt nannifying shithole.

Moving soon to undisclosed semi-paradise with real winters and a crime rate so low, the last time they had a murder they named a street after it.

168 daddycrack  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:13:23pm

I think that without a control to the experiment you cannot come to any conclusions. Perhaps it was the incubation time period that caused the change in growth pattern. Genetic vs environmental anybody. But the only way to know would be to put the new set of seeds into the deep freeze for 12 years? This article shows me nothing but poor scientific method.

169 JacksonTn  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:13:28pm

re: #166 Alouette

My son married an Alabama girl. She is just the sweetest thing ever. They are moving to Huntsville so she can be close to her folks.

Alouette ... congrats to you son! ... there are some pretty darn smart people around Huntsville ...

170 Russkilitlover  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:14:13pm

re: #139 retief_99

How does the coyote know there are more or less prey animals in any given season?

FEWER!!!

/grammar nazi mode off.

171 albusteve  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:14:18pm

re: #167 Cato the Elder

Currently in a different Blue State antigun taxaholic murder-ridden near-bankrupt nannifying shithole.

Moving soon to undisclosed semi-paradise with real winters and a crime rate so low, the last time they had a murder they named a street after it.

well I'm sure they will all be the worse off for it...maybe you can sneak in?

172 Achilles Tang  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:14:39pm

re: #152 HoosierHoops

I'm just smart enough to know this...Never diss a state in the Union..All 50 states are proud and rightly so...

Not according to insurance companies... //

173 ArchangelMichael  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:14:52pm

re: #165 karmic_inquisitor

Until such time as Joe Biden leaves the national scene there is nothing wrong with mocking Delaware.

174 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:15:30pm

re: #171 albusteve

well I'm sure they will all be the worse off for it...maybe you can sneak in?

They already know I'm coming.

175 Digital Display  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:15:43pm

re: #172 Naso Tang

Not according to insurance companies... //

Don't make me come over there! *wink*
Good evening

176 VegasRick  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:15:43pm

re: #167 Cato the Elder

Currently in a different Blue State antigun taxaholic murder-ridden near-bankrupt nannifying shithole.

Moving soon to undisclosed semi-paradise with real winters and a crime rate so low, the last time they had a murder they named a street after it.

There is a Mary Jo Kopechne Lane somewhere?

177 albusteve  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:16:18pm

re: #166 Alouette

My son married an Alabama girl. She is just the sweetest thing ever. They are moving to Huntsville so she can be close to her folks.

I have a buddy in Huntsville...spends all summer on the gulf and I'm an official Redneck when I visit...I love it down there

178 LeslieG  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:16:23pm

Remember: Everything proves global warming.

And the only way to stop global warming is to tax the hell out of the American people.

179 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:16:35pm

re: #176 VegasRick

There is a Mary Jo Kopechne Lane somewhere?

Wrong state.

180 Achilles Tang  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:16:48pm

re: #167 Cato the Elder


Moving soon to undisclosed semi-paradise with real winters and a crime rate so low, the last time they had a murder they named a street after it.

I don't know that I could name a state that way, but towns (small) yes.

181 albusteve  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:17:06pm

re: #174 Cato the Elder

They already know I'm coming.

moving to a ghost town?...
jus kidding

182 VegasRick  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:17:12pm

re: #178 LeslieG

Remember: Everything proves global warming.

And the only way to stop global warming is to tax the hell out of the American people.

Yep. That is the fix for EVERYTHING these days.

183 Digital Display  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:17:30pm

re: #164 albusteve

Florida haters...be dissin Mickey Mouse and NASA

LOL
Almost kick-off! Hope you are well Steve

184 Randall Gross  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:17:53pm

re: #139 retief_99

Nobody said evolution took place in a bucket in a cooler. If you read the article you can see that. The bucket in the cooler is the control population.

As to how coyotes "know" the answer is that they clearly don't know. However once their diet enriches then different genes are allowed to express that otherwise might not have. It's similar to the reasons that female gymnasts don't get pregnant even without birth control. After they stop their training and gain body fat, voila, they too can get pregnant.

185 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:17:55pm

re: #152 HoosierHoops

I'm just smart enough to know this...Never diss a state in the Union..All 50 states are proud and rightly so...
Never diss a state...Trash a person if you must...Trash the politics if you will...
Never bad mouth a State

Unless it's Massachusetts.

186 Achilles Tang  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:18:09pm

re: #175 HoosierHoops

Don't make me come over there! *wink*
Good evening

Evnin. (accent included)

:)

187 albusteve  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:18:31pm

re: #183 HoosierHoops

LOL
Almost kick-off! Hope you are well Steve

enjoy!

188 retief_99  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:19:12pm

re: #170 Russkilitlover

Prove it

189 Achilles Tang  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:21:31pm

re: #168 daddycrack

I think that without a control to the experiment you cannot come to any conclusions. Perhaps it was the incubation time period that caused the change in growth pattern. Genetic vs environmental anybody. But the only way to know would be to put the new set of seeds into the deep freeze for 12 years? This article shows me nothing but poor scientific method.

What it should show you is the expression of billions of years of evolution, if you expanded your horizon.

190 Russkilitlover  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:21:34pm

re: #188 retief_99

Prove it

Fewer vs. Less

191 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:23:27pm

re: #184 Thanos

Nobody said evolution took place in a bucket in a cooler. If you read the article you can see that. The bucket in the cooler is the control population.

As to how coyotes "know" the answer is that they clearly don't know. However once their diet enriches then different genes are allowed to express that otherwise might not have. It's similar to the reasons that female gymnasts don't get pregnant even without birth control. After they stop their training and gain body fat, voila, they too can get pregnant.

Isn't there a Seinfeld episode about that?

192 albusteve  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:23:31pm

re: #185 Cato the Elder

Unless it's Massachusetts.

I hope you enjoy your new digs and prosper...I do

193 spidly  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:24:35pm

re: #178 LeslieG

Remember: Everything proves global warming.

And the only way to stop global warming is to tax the hell out of the American people.

here's a start

194 Gus  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:24:40pm

OT

Deadly gun battle in Gaza mosque

At least 13 people have been killed and at least 85 injured in a fierce gun battle in Gaza, emergency services say.

Eyewitnesses say hundreds of Hamas fighters and policemen surrounded a mosque where followers of a radical Islamist cleric were holed up.

Hamas fired rocket-propelled grenades at the mosque and stormed the leader's house in Rafah, near the Egypt border.

It is thought that at least 100 supporters of the al-Qaeda-linked group, Jund Ansar Allah, were inside...

195 allan5oh  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:25:50pm

Climate change...

Evolution...

All you'd have to do is add in "gay seeds" and you'd have the trifecta of terror for hard right conservatives.

196 Gus  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:26:18pm

re: #194 Gus 802

Looks like this was already linked.

197 spidly  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:26:20pm

re: #194 Gus 802

OT

Deadly gun battle in Gaza mosque

who the hell do you have to be in order for Hamas to call you a radical islamist?

198 albusteve  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:26:43pm

re: #195 allan5oh

Climate change...

Evolution...

All you'd have to do is add in "gay seeds" and you'd have the trifecta of terror for hard right conservatives.

what are gay seeds?

199 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:27:11pm

re: #192 albusteve

I hope you enjoy your new digs and prosper...I do

Thank you!

I am looking forward, among other things, to verifying the rumor that the Milky Way still shines.

200 itellu3times  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:27:18pm

re: #194 Gus 802

OT

Deadly gun battle in Gaza mosque

Called gettin' er done.

201 Gus  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:28:22pm

re: #197 spidly

who the hell do you have to be in order for Hamas to call you a radical islamist?

I don't know but the image speaks 1000 words.

202 itellu3times  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:29:31pm

re: #201 Gus 802

I don't know but the image speaks 1000 words.

I guess that's the "before" picture.

203 spidly  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:29:37pm

re: #195 allan5oh

Climate change...

Evolution...

All you'd have to do is add in "gay seeds" and you'd have the trifecta of terror for hard right conservatives.

I'm all for pistil on pistil, but two stamens going at it? Yech!

204 Aye Pod  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:29:45pm

The plant kingdom (remember green=commie) is in league with Al Gore and John Kerry. They are flowering early on purpose. Don't believe their lies.

205 Randall Gross  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:29:45pm

The main question in the article is here (remember in real science each answer leads to new questions):

Plasticity can help animals and plants thrive as conditions change. Insects, for example, emerge from cocoons in the spring as they sense the days getting longer. Their clock is genetically encoded, but they are also plastic enough to emerge ahead of schedule if the plants they feed on start growing sooner.

On the other hand, genes themselves can change, too. When the environment changes, individuals with certain genetic variations may be more likely to survive than others and have more offspring. They pass down their own genes to the next generation, and over time the entire population changes thanks to natural selection.

Yet conservation biologists have only rarely looked into which cause — plasticity or natural selection — has been responsible for the climate-driven changes they’ve documented. “People really weren’t thinking about evolution at all,” says David Skelly, a professor of ecology at the Yale School of Forestry & Environmental Studies. “They thought it happened on thousand-year time scales.”

206 Digital Display  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:30:01pm

re: #185 Cato the Elder

Unless it's Massachusetts.

When I was a Junior in College a bunch of us went to Boston for one week...
I love that city! From that week on I have always been a Sox and Celtics fan and everybody knows it...
The history of Boston is great..The people are really cool..The greatest music school in the world is in Boston.. I called my mom from the Harvard Library and told her...Ma..I finally made it to Harvard!
I saw the bullet hole in some church from the revolutionary war...That is where the great experiment of America Started...Boston Mass.

207 Gus  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:30:50pm

re: #202 itellu3times

I guess that's the "before" picture.

With any luck. Kind of looks like they were doing there own version of a "Ward Churchill pose."

208 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:31:07pm

re: #201 Gus 802

I don't know but the image speaks 1000 words.

Dude, that is one big-ass prayer bump on that guy's head.

That is his head, right?

209 The Left  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:31:23pm

re: #204 Jimmah

The plant kingdom (remember green=commie) is in league with Al Gore and John Kerry. They are flowering early on purpose. Don't believe their lies.

It's the hormones that Holdren has snuck into their water.

210 Digital Display  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:32:05pm

re: #209 iceweasel

It's the hormones that Holdren has snuck into their water.

Good evening Ice

211 itellu3times  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:32:06pm

re: #205 Thanos

“People really weren’t thinking about evolution at all,” says David Skelly, a professor of ecology at the Yale School of Forestry & Environmental Studies. “They thought it happened on thousand-year time scales.”

That's not quite accurate, bacteria evolve in years (if not hours), and every high school biology class talks about the moths turning from white to grey or black or something due to the coal plant pollution in England, over a period of a couple of years.

212 JacksonTn  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:32:13pm

re: #204 Jimmah

The plant kingdom (remember green=commie) is in league with Al Gore and John Kerry. They are flowering early on purpose. Don't believe their lies.

Jimmah ... one of the reasons I have a problem with "some" in the green movement is because I work with many markets that sell green products and it has been a real awakening to find how many are only in it for the dollar value ... if you put ANYTHING on a label indicating anything natural, green, organic, etc. on it you can get higher dollar for it and all "green" is not equal ...

213 allan5oh  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:32:17pm

re: #198 albusteve

what are gay seeds?

You're not against homosexuals are you?

214 Gus  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:32:55pm

re: #208 Cato the Elder

Dude, that is one big-ass prayer bump on that guy's head.

That is his head, right?

Looks like it. Although it could be his rear end. /

215 itellu3times  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:32:58pm

re: #207 Gus 802

With any luck. Kind of looks like they were doing there own version of a "Ward Churchill pose."

And just seconds later, there was a very different distribution of their DNA.

Think of it as evolution in action.

216 albusteve  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:33:19pm

re: #206 HoosierHoops

When I was a Junior in College a bunch of us went to Boston for one week...
I love that city! From that week on I have always been a Sox and Celtics fan and everybody knows it...
The history of Boston is great..The people are really cool..The greatest music school in the world is in Boston.. I called my mom from the Harvard Library and told her...Ma..I finally made it to Harvard!
I saw the bullet hole in some church from the revolutionary war...That is where the great experiment of America Started...Boston Mass.

it's great to be a tourist...something I know a little about...if I took my NM vibe to Boston to live, I'd be dead in less than two weeks..."hi!, how are ya?...just passin through!"

217 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:35:02pm

re: #185 Cato the Elder

re: #152 HoosierHoops


Unless it's Massachusetts.

I'm sure you meant Texas or Alaska...

218 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:35:59pm

re: #206 HoosierHoops

LOL - I was joking. A lot of people love to diss the "People's Republic of Massachusetts" but I would trade it for where I'm living now in a heartbeat, despite the politics. Central Mass. is beauty itself.

I will say however that Boston traffic patterns and drivers are the reason they had to invent GPS voice guides.

219 Salamantis  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:36:36pm

re: #143 albusteve

people in Florida do not read...
I love LGF

I live in Florida and my personal library numbers several thousand volumes.

220 albusteve  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:36:45pm

re: #213 allan5oh

You're not against homosexuals are you?

I'm not against homosexuals...is that a trick question?

221 Digital Display  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:36:48pm

re: #217 Fenway_Nation

I'm sure you meant Texas or Alaska...

#206 dude..
Brady just messed up the whole NFL...He looked great

222 Randall Gross  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:36:50pm

re: #211 itellu3times

That's not quite accurate, bacteria evolve in years (if not hours), and every high school biology class talks about the moths turning from white to grey or black or something due to the coal plant pollution in England, over a period of a couple of years.

That section is out of context, in context he's saying that when people are looking at some changes that climate change is forcing in populations that they are assuming plasticity and not thinking evolution.

223 The Left  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:37:14pm

re: #210 HoosierHoops

Good evening Ice

Howdy, Sir Hoops-a-lot! How are you?

224 Aye Pod  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:37:38pm

re: #209 iceweasel

It's the hormones that Holdren has snuck into their water.

It's all Obama's fault for following the Hitler route and employing a science advisor./

Good to see you iceweasel:) How are you?

225 Randall Gross  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:37:42pm

re: #219 Salamantis

I live in Florida and my personal library numbers several thousand volumes.

Yes, but we can tell from your vocabulary that you've never read any of them Sal.

///

226 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:37:43pm
The group is very critical of Hamas, which seized Gaza in 2007, accusing the Islamist group of not being Islamist enough.

Hoo boy.

227 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:37:49pm

re: #221 HoosierHoops

Much more reassuring than the headline I saw where he was only chucking the ball 3 ft per pass attempt.

Oh wait...that was The Onion

228 doppelganglander  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:39:12pm

re: #129 Cato the Elder

Did I say that out loud?

I was, of course, referring to climate and geographic shape, not people.

Actually, Florida has the eighth highest syphilis rate in the country. OTOH, Georgia has the third highest, so we've got no room to talk.

229 albusteve  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:39:18pm

re: #219 Salamantis

I live in Florida and my personal library numbers several thousand volumes.

I read a book once...wasn't that hard

230 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:40:18pm

re: #219 Salamantis

I live in Florida and my personal library numbers several thousand volumes.

Yeah, but I bet none of them were printed there. And don't they charge a special book tax to discourage too much larnin'?

231 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:40:38pm

re: #218 Cato the Elder

You left out the rotaries/traffic circles...a logistical nightmare predicated on other drivers being courteous...

They actually replaced an intersection in my mother's hometown with a traffic cricle some 4-5 years ago...

232 Gus  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:40:44pm

re: #226 Cato the Elder

Hoo boy.

AJ is now saying 16 dead.

233 Digital Display  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:40:47pm

re: #223 iceweasel

Howdy, Sir Hoops-a-lot! How are you?

Good evening sweetheart...hope today finds you well..The Colts just started and I'm taking notes about the rookies...See you at half time

234 The Left  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:41:07pm

re: #224 Jimmah

It's all Obama's fault for following the Hitler route and employing a science advisor./

Good to see you iceweasel:) How are you?

Know who else liked evergreens? Hitler

Always a pleasure to see you, Jimmah. :) All's well here. You?

235 Aye Pod  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:41:16pm

re: #212 JacksonTn

Jimmah ... one of the reasons I have a problem with "some" in the green movement is because I work with many markets that sell green products and it has been a real awakening to find how many are only in it for the dollar value ... if you put ANYTHING on a label indicating anything natural, green, organic, etc. on it you can get higher dollar for it and all "green" is not equal ...

I would say that the vast majority of people who are in the business of selling anything are in it for the money - I don't see any reason why green products should be any different. Business is business.

236 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:42:04pm

Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.

--Groucho

237 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:42:30pm

re: #235 Jimmah

I would say that the vast majority of people who are in the business of selling anything are in it for the money - I don't see any reason why green products should be any different. Business is business.

And fraud is fraud.

238 reine.de.tout  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:42:42pm

re: #231 Fenway_Nation

You left out the rotaries/traffic circles...a logistical nightmare predicated on other drivers being courteous...

They actually replaced an intersection in my mother's hometown with a traffic cricle some 4-5 years ago...

I grew up in a town with 2 traffic circles. They are very efficient at moving traffic, IF you know what you're doing. Otherwise, they are very efficient for creating wrecks.

239 doppelganglander  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:43:15pm

re: #230 Cato the Elder

Yeah, but I bet none of them were printed there. And don't they charge a special book tax to discourage too much larnin'?

You're thinking of Tennessee. I was traveling in rural east Tennessee with my daughter when we spotted the universal sign for a library. I told her that's where the one person in town who can read lives.

240 spidly  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:43:17pm

re: #226 Cato the Elder

The group is very critical of Hamas, which seized Gaza in 2007, accusing the Islamist group of not being Islamist enough


Hoo boy.

something like a battle of drug lords? Those Hamas guys look down on the Abdel-Latif Mous guys 'cause they kill everyone AND their pets too.

241 albusteve  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:43:20pm

re: #235 Jimmah

I would say that the vast majority of people who are in the business of selling anything are in it for the money - I don't see any reason why green products should be any different. Business is business.

what about honesty?...does that count for anything?

242 jcm  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:44:05pm

WOOT!

I finally caught an open registration!

I'M IN! I'M IN!

;-P

243 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:44:06pm

This may actually impact Dendrochronology.

Dendrochronology (tree rings) has been used to derive proxies for past temperature records. One of the criticisms of dendrochronology as a temperature proxy (as opposed to simply counting years) has been that some species of trees show less genetic variation in a given area than others. Take poplars - a stand of poplars (aspens, cottonwoods) will often be monoclonal - the are genetically identical and, with intersecting root systems and new trees growing from said roots, a whole stand can be considered a single organism. Other trees will only grow from a seed.

If you have a proxy model that assumes that a tree of a given variety will have a given density to the ring for a given year which implies temperature, that discounts the genetic adaptation of the species in responding to the climate. While we need to see a few generations or two to produce variation, dendrochronology relies on placing overlapping tree rings patterns from younger to older trees to create a continuous time line with the assumption that there isn't much variation within a species given such a technique. But if sharp adaptations do occur, we could see a tree species making an adaptations that aren't reflected in the ring depth or wood density. After all, if the plant can take up / keep more water from its environment due to such an adaptation, it would tend to dampen the effect of droughts in the tree ring record.

244 reine.de.tout  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:44:11pm

re: #239 doppelganglander

You're thinking of Tennessee. I was traveling in rural east Tennessee with my daughter when we spotted the universal sign for a library. I told her that's where the one person in town who can read lives.

You must have been near Buck Snort, TN.

245 Killgore Trout  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:44:18pm

Semi-OT: Divine Watermelon

246 albusteve  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:44:30pm

re: #238 reine.de.tout

I grew up in a town with 2 traffic circles. They are very efficient at moving traffic, IF you know what you're doing. Otherwise, they are very efficient for creating wrecks.

Jamaica is full of roundabouts...and on the left side too...buckle up!

247 JacksonTn  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:44:53pm

re: #235 Jimmah

I would say that the vast majority of people who are in the business of selling anything are in it for the money - I don't see any reason why green products should be any different. Business is business.

Jimmah ... that is true and I like to keep business making money all by themselves ... but I am just pointing out my experiences with many in the "green" movement ... who in public say one thing and when they are behind closed doors negotiating say another ... sometimes it is portrayed that if you don't "buy green" you are doing something wrong and I am just saying that "green" is not always really "green" ... and go to a store and if you see near perfect fruit ... I would bet you that is not really a totally organic piece of fruit ... I don't care what the label says ...

248 doppelganglander  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:45:01pm

re: #238 reine.de.tout

I grew up in a town with 2 traffic circles. They are very efficient at moving traffic, IF you know what you're doing. Otherwise, they are very efficient for creating wrecks.

The first traffic circle in Georgia was installed last year about a mile from my house. It's working very well, even at rush hour.

249 Aye Pod  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:45:05pm

re: #234 iceweasel

Know who else liked evergreens? Hitler

Always a pleasure to see you, Jimmah. :) All's well here. You?

I'm great thanks! Heh - that one is a stand out. Wonderfully ominous pic of Hitler with christmas tree.

250 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:45:13pm

re: #238 reine.de.tout

I grew up in a town with 2 traffic circles. They are very efficient at moving traffic, IF you know what you're doing. Otherwise, they are very efficient for creating wrecks.

Traffic circles were invented in Britain, in the days when men still wore hats and took them off to say "good morning" to each other.

Apply to modern American city: big mistake.

251 Killgore Trout  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:45:22pm

re: #242 jcm

Fetch the drinks, noob.

252 Racer X  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:45:33pm

I am now fully on board with the AGW bandwagon.

With that being said, OMFG what the hell are we doing! We must take action now! I demand a "Nuke Deal" program to jump start nuclear power in America immediately! The fate of mankind is at stake! Anything less than all out nuke plants is a waste of time and energy!

Or is something else really the goal here?

253 Gus  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:46:07pm

re: #238 reine.de.tout

I grew up in a town with 2 traffic circles. They are very efficient at moving traffic, IF you know what you're doing. Otherwise, they are very efficient for creating wrecks.

The trick is to wear a helmet and floor it!

/

254 Killgore Trout  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:46:58pm

re: #250 Cato the Elder

I have a tough time even crossing the street in the UK. Roundabouts are impossibly for me to comprehend over there.

255 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:47:00pm

re: #209 iceweasel

Ice! I was worried you had been dissed into submission here. Good to see you!

256 jcm  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:47:04pm

re: #251 Killgore Trout

Fetch the drinks, noob.

Yes, Sir, fetching sir!

257 Aye Pod  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:47:43pm

re: #237 Cato the Elder

And fraud is fraud.

The existence of a market for green products isn't evidence for or against the scientific arguments about AGW.

258 retief_99  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:47:48pm

re: #247 JacksonTn

Australia is the land of the traffic circle, must be a 100 of them within 10 miles of my house. They are very efficient where the traffic is moderate, but terrible for heavy traffic

259 Killgore Trout  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:47:56pm

re: #256 jcm

Nice, Keep 'em comin'.

260 albusteve  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:47:56pm

re: #254 Killgore Trout

I have a tough time even crossing the street in the UK. Roundabouts are impossibly for me to comprehend over there.

rent a car...you can do it

261 reine.de.tout  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:48:03pm

re: #248 doppelganglander

The first traffic circle in Georgia was installed last year about a mile from my house. It's working very well, even at rush hour.

I'm amazed they are still making those. Baton Rouge had a traffic circle that was so awful, so many wrecks (including my Dad once, when we were on our way to visit grandparents in NOLA), they finally took it out and made some sort of clover-leaf type system with an overpass for getting off one street onto the other one. It works just fine; but was much more expensive to build, I'm sure.

262 spidly  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:48:08pm

re: #235 Jimmah

I would say that the vast majority of people who are in the business of selling anything are in it for the money - I don't see any reason why green products should be any different. Business is business.

Hey, you can fail to thin your apple trees and sell the crap that comes off as "organic" at a premium. Used to be that you'd be lucky if diamond fruit would take that kind of garbage off your hands for pennies to go out for feed or applesauce. I'm not buying, but hey, if some metrosexual wants to pay insane prices for substandard fruit?

263 doppelganglander  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:49:44pm

re: #244 reine.de.tout

You must have been near Buck Snort, TN.

That's a real place?!? Actually, we were on our way to a debate tournament at Carson-Newman College, the place that makes BYU look like a party school. It's in east TN, northeast of Knoxville.

264 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:50:13pm

re: #241 albusteve

what about honesty?...does that count for anything?

I just love the way, in movies at least, if someone's about to get totally screwed the other guy will say "nothing personal, just business".

It's become a catch phrase in the real world, too. Or is it the other way round?

In any case it gives business a bad odor - as if "just business" means "for a dollar I get to do whatever it takes".

265 albusteve  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:50:19pm

re: #261 reine.de.tout

I'm amazed they are still making those. Baton Rouge had a traffic circle that was so awful, so many wrecks (including my Dad once, when we were on our way to visit grandparents in NOLA), they finally took it out and made some sort of clover-leaf type system with an overpass for getting off one street onto the other one. It works just fine; but was much more expensive to build, I'm sure.

you definately have to have your shit together when you fly into one...they are not for the faint of heart

266 Racer X  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:51:15pm

Too hot for Guinness.

Dos Equis sounds good right now.

267 reine.de.tout  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:51:18pm

re: #263 doppelganglander

That's a real place?!? Actually, we were on our way to a debate tournament at Carson-Newman College, the place that makes BYU look like a party school. It's in east TN, northeast of Knoxville.

Bucksnort, TN
The legend of Bucksnort, TN

268 Killgore Trout  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:51:38pm

re: #260 albusteve

rent a car...you can do it

Never. My dyslexia really acts up when I'm over there.

269 Shug  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:51:44pm

Did they freeze the fresh seeds, just to exclude freezing as a confounding variable?

270 The Left  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:51:58pm

re: #255 Cato the Elder

Ice! I was worried you had been dissed into submission here. Good to see you!

Vale, Cato!

I remain, as ever, indomitable. :)
Soros has me working a different shift than you, that's all. Good to see you!

271 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:52:17pm

re: #257 Jimmah

The existence of a market for green products isn't evidence for or against the scientific arguments about AGW.

I didn't realize that was the "point" being made. Merely suggesting that your interlocutor may well be right about fraudulent "green" or "organic" stuff selling for more just because of a label. How would the consumer know?

272 doppelganglander  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:52:19pm

re: #261 reine.de.tout

I'm amazed they are still making those. Baton Rouge had a traffic circle that was so awful, so many wrecks (including my Dad once, when we were on our way to visit grandparents in NOLA), they finally took it out and made some sort of clover-leaf type system with an overpass for getting off one street onto the other one. It works just fine; but was much more expensive to build, I'm sure.

New Jersey had (and has) some terrifying circles involving major highways. This one is at the intersection of two roads that were once country but are now lined with subdivisions. I was worried about it because I am not a great driver, but it's really a piece of cake.

Going out for barbecue with the husband and his visiting nephews. Stay scaly, all.

273 Aye Pod  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:52:27pm

re: #247 JacksonTn

Jimmah ... that is true and I like to keep business making money all by themselves ... but I am just pointing out my experiences with many in the "green" movement ... who in public say one thing and when they are behind closed doors negotiating say another ... sometimes it is portrayed that if you don't "buy green" you are doing something wrong and I am just saying that "green" is not always really "green" ... and go to a store and if you see near perfect fruit ... I would bet you that is not really a totally organic piece of fruit ... I don't care what the label says ...

That's a fair point. I would go further and add that I don't think there isn't necessarily anything green about 'organic' food anyway, even if it is totally organic. As far as I am aware, 'organic' just means less efficient in terms of time spent and amount of land used in cultivation/rearing. In a world where we will see increasing competition for land use between natural habitat and cultivated land, I doubt that approach is a green one.

274 JacksonTn  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:52:29pm

re: #257 Jimmah

The existence of a market for green products isn't evidence for or against the scientific arguments about AGW.

Jimmah ... I was not addressing arguments for or against AGW ... I was speaking to one reason it is hard for some to accept it because of "some" who speak out of both sides of their mouth while talking about it and profiting from it ...

275 Gus  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:52:41pm

re: #261 reine.de.tout

I'm amazed they are still making those. Baton Rouge had a traffic circle that was so awful, so many wrecks (including my Dad once, when we were on our way to visit grandparents in NOLA), they finally took it out and made some sort of clover-leaf type system with an overpass for getting off one street onto the other one. It works just fine; but was much more expensive to build, I'm sure.

They used to have a lot in New Jersey although now I think many are being replaced. It was pretty exciting to drive into one and you have to have your head on a swivel. The worst part sometimes was having traffic stalled going into one when you get a driver that gets scared upon entering.

276 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:52:59pm

re: #252 Racer X

I am now fully on board with the AGW bandwagon.

With that being said, OMFG what the hell are we doing! We must take action now! I demand a "Nuke Deal" program to jump start nuclear power in America immediately! The fate of mankind is at stake! Anything less than all out nuke plants is a waste of time and energy!

Or is something else really the goal here?

Nuclear power is the only option available to us. If you concentrated all of the toxins that are byproducts of photovoltaic panels you'd end up with more crap that you'd have to bury in 55 gallon drums than for the equivalent yield of nuclear fuels. Yes - nuclear waste is nasty stuff, but it comes in concentrated, easy to track form as opposed to the often airborne wastes from other sources.

277 Salamantis  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:53:04pm

re: #230 Cato the Elder

Yeah, but I bet none of them were printed there. And don't they charge a special book tax to discourage too much larnin'?

Well, just ready to hand off a bookshelf I found Problems in General Linguistics by Emile Benveniste. It is #8 in the Miami Linguistics Series, and was published in 1971 by the University of Miami Press (original French was published in Paris in 1966).

278 albusteve  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:53:07pm

re: #264 Cato the Elder

I just love the way, in movies at least, if someone's about to get totally screwed the other guy will say "nothing personal, just business".

It's become a catch phrase in the real world, too. Or is it the other way round?

In any case it gives business a bad odor - as if "just business" means "for a dollar I get to do whatever it takes".

I ran a remodel business for twenty years...I was ferociously honest, and it's surprising how many people expected to be ripped off somewhere in the deal...and even my plumbers were licensed!

279 Gus  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:53:34pm
280 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:53:58pm

re: #270 iceweasel

Vale, Cato!

I remain, as ever, indomitable. :)
Soros has me working a different shift than you, that's all. Good to see you!

Yep, that's George. Spreading socialism and moral decay is a round-the-clock effort.

281 JacksonTn  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:54:27pm

re: #273 Jimmah

That's a fair point. I would go further and add that I don't think there isn't necessarily anything green about 'organic' food anyway, even if it is totally organic. As far as I am aware, 'organic' just means less efficient in terms of time spent and amount of land used in cultivation/rearing. In a world where we will see increasing competition for land use between natural habitat and cultivated land, I doubt that approach is a green one.

Jimmah ... yes you would be right ... it takes much much more time, labor and land to farm organically ... and it is very very hard to do on a large scale ... next to impossible with certain fruit ...

282 spidly  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:54:35pm

re: #273 Jimmah

That's a fair point. I would go further and add that I don't think there isn't necessarily anything green about 'organic' food anyway, even if it is totally organic. As far as I am aware, 'organic' just means less efficient in terms of time spent and amount of land used in cultivation/rearing. In a world where we will see increasing competition for land use between natural habitat and cultivated land, I doubt that approach is a green one.

you have to wonder how green is it to return to low yield high erosion methods of centuries passed.

283 The Left  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:54:36pm

Semi- OT, but the Democrats killed off the climate change bill when no-one was looking.

Meet the new boss, ...

284 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:55:23pm

re: #283 iceweasel

Card check next!!

285 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:55:48pm

re: #277 Salamantis

Well, just ready to hand off a bookshelf I found Problems in General Linguistics by Emile Benveniste. It is #8 in the Miami Linguistics Series, and was published in 1971 by the University of Miami Press (original French was published in Paris in 1966).

Ahem, well...I bet it's a bad translation!

;^)

286 albusteve  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:55:55pm

re: #268 Killgore Trout

Never. My dyslexia really acts up when I'm over there.

sorry for that...I've spent alot of time in Jamaica and driving there is a state of mind...after two weeks, you turn in the car and feel like you've survived D-Day...I understand

287 redc1c4  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:56:22pm

sounds like the finch example in the Galapagos we covered in Anthro this spring...

drought hit, and the finches selected for beaks that could handle the seeds on the plants that survived the drought conditions: "Climate Change driven evolution!"

except, of course, that when the drought ended, the population selected back to the other beaks to match the food supply...

temporary selected change over a few years is not evolution, it's just selection for short term survival. evolutionary change would be a fundamental change in the plant that results in a new species.

288 Killgore Trout  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:56:32pm

Crazy Pam pimping for Alex Jones...

In the wake of a Florida news station covering the “vandalism” of Obama as Joker posters going up around the country, Infowars has discovered an Obama quote published in The Washington Post thanking Obamanoids for posting the artwork of Shepard Fairey on government property. Fairey created the now famous image of Obama used during the election.


...along with a picture of the Infowars advertisement.
Finally, counter-jihad and 9-11 Truth unite under the ODS banner.

289 Racer X  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:57:07pm

re: #276 karmic_inquisitor

I'm fully on board with AGW now. It gives the old hippies something to do. And you are correct - the only realistic option is start building about a hundred nuke plants right now. Anything else is a waste of time and energy. We can get to solar and wind and unicorn farts in the future, but not right now.

290 Randall Gross  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:57:47pm

re: #283 iceweasel

Semi- OT, but the Democrats killed off the climate change bill when no-one was looking.

Meet the new boss, ...

I don't think they killed the whole bill, just cap and tax.

291 jcm  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:58:02pm

re: #276 karmic_inquisitor

Nuclear power is the only option available to us. If you concentrated all of the toxins that are byproducts of photovoltaic panels you'd end up with more crap that you'd have to bury in 55 gallon drums than for the equivalent yield of nuclear fuels. Yes - nuclear waste is nasty stuff, but it comes in concentrated, easy to track form as opposed to the often airborne wastes from other sources.

Yep... Silicon wafer fabrication is a nasty business, lots of nasty stuff used in the process.

292 Racer X  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:58:24pm

re: #283 iceweasel

Semi- OT, but the Democrats killed off the climate change bill when no-one was looking.

Meet the new boss, ...

Very interesting.

293 Aye Pod  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:58:26pm

re: #271 Cato the Elder

I didn't realize that was the "point" being made. Merely suggesting that your interlocutor may well be right about fraudulent "green" or "organic" stuff selling for more just because of a label. How would the consumer know?

Sorry Cato - you are quite right of course. I am all for things like energy saving lightbulbs and other appliances/equipment, but I am really not a fan of 'organic' food products at all. I actually do regard those as (mostly) fraudulent, in that the claims about the benefits to the connsumer look pretty shaky, and also the point I made to Jackson about land usage.

294 Shug  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:58:36pm

re: #288 Killgore Trout

Crazy Pam pimping for Alex Jones...


...along with a picture of the Infowars advertisement.
Finally, counter-jihad and 9-11 Truth unite under the ODS banner.

It's unfortunate that the story is tainted by the person telling it.

because this is again a nice piece of double standards where anti-obama posters are a crime, but pro-Obama posters are all over public and government property and nobody cares.

295 Locker  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:58:57pm

I've bought organic in the past but the following article was fairly eye opening:

[Link: www.timesonline.co.uk...]

Organic food gives no health benefits to consumers, according to research for the Food Standards Agency published today.

296 redc1c4  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:59:21pm

re: #291 jcm

Yep... Silicon wafer fabrication is a nasty business, lots of nasty stuff used in the process.

sounds like we should either ban it, or, at the very least, make sure it's done in another country...

oh, wait: we already did that. %-)

297 spidly  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 4:59:50pm

re: #276 karmic_inquisitor

Nuclear power is the only option available to us. If you concentrated all of the toxins that are byproducts of photovoltaic panels you'd end up with more crap that you'd have to bury in 55 gallon drums than for the equivalent yield of nuclear fuels. Yes - nuclear waste is nasty stuff, but it comes in concentrated, easy to track form as opposed to the often airborne wastes from other sources.

reprocessing takes the nasty waste down to a few ounces a year. We could be going after the spent fuel that is currently stored and making new fuel and medical isotopes out of it. But then it is more green to cut down huge swaths of forest to plant fuel corn, windmills, and solar panels for innefficient power.

298 Erik The Red  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:00:15pm

re: #287 redc1c4


Hey red, you are up early today:) Great to see you.

299 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:00:15pm

re: #283 iceweasel

Semi- OT, but the Democrats killed off the climate change bill when no-one was looking.

Meet the new boss, ...

Yes, well *cough* itwasn'tgoingtoworkanyway.

300 Achilles Tang  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:00:28pm

re: #219 Salamantis

I live in Florida and my personal library numbers several thousand volumes.

What do you charge for access?

How about a beer sometime? Anywhere near Tampa bay?

301 The Left  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:00:40pm

re: #290 Thanos

I don't think they killed the whole bill, just cap and tax.

Yeah, just the provisions about climate change. They want to sever that from the rest.
The result, of course, will be that it never gets passed.

302 redc1c4  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:00:56pm

re: #295 Locker

I've bought organic in the past but the following article was fairly eye opening:

[Link: www.timesonline.co.uk...]

i buy organic vegetables, fruits, meat, eggs, dairy products, grains, etc...

mostly because they don't make any inorganic ones.

the rest of it is marketing bullshit.

303 Bagua  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:01:18pm

re: #257 Jimmah

The existence of a market for green products isn't evidence for or against the scientific arguments about AGW.

Agreed, it does nothing to dispute the science, rather, if truly fraud it is evidence of the theory of the Global Warming Hoax, which involves the use of AGW theory to advocate and sell ineffective “solutions” for gain, in this case money.

304 redc1c4  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:01:44pm

re: #298 Erik The Red

Hey red, you are up early today:) Great to see you.

it's that st00pid school thing: it's really getting in the way of doing nothing all day. %-)

305 Randall Gross  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:01:47pm

re: #301 iceweasel

Yeah, just the provisions about climate change. They want to sever that from the rest.
The result, of course, will be that it never gets passed.

They will kill the parts on taxation, but keep the parts on energy spending is my prediction.

306 Salamantis  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:02:08pm

re: #300 Naso Tang

What do you charge for access?

How about a beer sometime? Anywhere near Tampa bay?

Pensacola. Access for Lizards is free. But brewskis are always appreciated.

307 Ojoe  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:02:38pm

re: #289 Racer X

Passive solar heating of buildings is doable & has been for actually thousands of years, the Romans were doing it.

The ancient Greek / Latin term heliocaminus literally means "solar furnace" and refers to a glass-enclosed sunroom intentionally designed to become hotter than the outside air temperature.[1]


Link

BBL

308 Killgore Trout  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:03:13pm

re: #294 Shug

The problem is that Alex Jones is having a contest to see who can hang the most Obama posters. Prize money was pretty good, IIRC.

309 albusteve  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:03:20pm

re: #306 Salamantis

Pensacola. Access for Lizards is free. But brewskis are always appreciated.

Pensacola has one of the best street parties I've ever been to...in the fall...jus sayin

310 Locker  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:03:26pm

Another nooberific question but is the LGF facebook group actually "quasi-official"? Thanks much.

311 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:03:30pm

re: #302 redc1c4

i buy organic vegetables, fruits, meat, eggs, dairy products, grains, etc...

mostly because they don't make any inorganic ones.

the rest of it is marketing bullshit.

I doubt all of it is. And I certainly prefer my fresh fruit to be locally grown and not laden with chemicals. But the potential for fraud is so great - how does one know?

312 Randall Gross  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:04:33pm

re: #310 Locker

Another nooberific question but is the LGF facebook group actually "quasi-official"? Thanks much.

I'd be careful there's one that's actual lizards and more than one or two that are banned lizards.

313 jcm  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:04:34pm

re: #296 redc1c4

sounds like we should either ban it, or, at the very least, make sure it's done in another country...

oh, wait: we already did that. %-)

We have a wafer fab in MN, when it's at capacity we contract the excess to a foundry in China.

Our MN wafers made when it's at capacity are cheaper than the ones from China.
When the fab is at less than capacity the unit cost goes up rapidly. Wafers fabs have a pretty high fixed cost that has to paid whether they are running product or not.

314 redc1c4  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:04:34pm

re: #308 Killgore Trout

The problem is that Alex Jones is having a contest to see who can hang the most Obama posters. Prize money was pretty good, IIRC.

why is that a problem?

315 Achilles Tang  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:04:34pm

re: #238 reine.de.tout

I grew up in a town with 2 traffic circles. They are very efficient at moving traffic, IF you know what you're doing. Otherwise, they are very efficient for creating wrecks.

Traffic circles are a European invention. Either you want only locals driving them, or lots of tourists from overseas.

316 JacksonTn  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:04:46pm

re: #311 Cato the Elder

I doubt all of it is. And I certainly prefer my fresh fruit to be locally grown and not laden with chemicals. But the potential for fraud is so great - how does one know?

CtE ... buy ugly fruit at the farmers market ... ugly fruit is one way you can be "more sure" but not totally sure ...

317 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:05:15pm

re: #294 Shug

I belive our own weasel if the subzero liquid persuasion said something along the lines of 'the truth doesn't catch cooties no matter where it comes from'/...

318 Locker  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:05:52pm

re: #312 Thanos

I'd be careful there's one that's actual lizards and more than one or two that are banned lizards.

Thanks Thanos. The one I'm looking at has 300 members and have Daniel and Ralph as the admins.

319 SurferDoc  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:06:01pm

re: #304 redc1c4

Hey Red! How are ya?

320 Racer X  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:06:30pm

re: #307 Ojoe

Passive solar heating of buildings is doable & has been for actually thousands of years, the Romans were doing it.


Link

BBL

Love it!

Lets do it - all of it. But full scale nuke plants is the only way to make an immediate dent in carbon emissions.

321 Erik The Red  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:06:54pm

re: #310 Locker

Another nooberific question but is the LGF facebook group actually "quasi-official"? Thanks much.

I punted that site when I first joined FB. On further investigation I think we have all come to agree to stay away. Some real haters there. Having said that I have become friends with some lizards that way, that I would never have found.

322 Achilles Tang  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:07:25pm

re: #306 Salamantis

Pensacola. Access for Lizards is free. But brewskis are always appreciated.

A little out of the way, unfortunately, but who knows. Call me if this way and I'll do the same. (Reine and Charles have my email).

323 Locker  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:07:37pm

re: #321 Erik The Red

Thank you sir I really appreciate the information.

324 redc1c4  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:07:48pm

re: #311 Cato the Elder

I doubt all of it is. And I certainly prefer my fresh fruit to be locally grown and not laden with chemicals. But the potential for fraud is so great - how does one know?

i'm at the store, looking at two bags of lettuce, and they are identical, except one says "organic" and costs lots more: on my planet, we call that bullshit.

i listened to some harridan whining to her daughter one day about how hard it was to find "organic eggs"... i asked her where she thought the others like the one's i was buying came from, from the egg factory?... she blew a gasket.

325 albusteve  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:08:13pm

re: #320 Racer X

Love it!

Lets do it - all of it. But full scale nuke plants is the only way to make an immediate dent in carbon emissions.

heh...not gonna happen...there is no money and prestige in solutions, the gig is about intellectual rightousness, not solutions

326 Randall Gross  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:08:15pm

re: #318 Locker

Thanks Thanos. The one I'm looking at has 300 members and have Daniel and Ralph as the admins.

I don't pay attention to names that much so I'm not the best of authorities. Link it and I'm sure a few folks here can take a peek and tell you fast.

327 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:08:33pm

re: #316 JacksonTn

CtE ... buy ugly fruit at the farmers market ... ugly fruit is one way you can be "more sure" but not totally sure ...

That's so true. And like "ugly" women, they're often the sweetest.

As a toad, not a prince, I was intrigued by an article in the NYT science section this week showing that women are more likely than men to use physical beauty as the major factor in deciding whether or not to have a one-night stand.

And men are supposed to be the superficial ones!

328 Locker  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:09:13pm

re: #324 redc1c4

Well, I do buy eggs that claim to be from "free range" chickens, don't know about organic. Yes it's the animal lover in me that wants chickens to roam free before I roast em and serve em with lemon rice but hey, I'm an idealist.

329 redc1c4  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:09:13pm

re: #319 SurferDoc

Hey Red! How are ya?

disgusted...

/same as always %-)

330 The Left  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:09:14pm

re: #317 Fenway_Nation

I belive our own weasel if the subzero liquid persuasion said something along the lines of 'the truth doesn't catch cooties no matter where it comes from'/...

Yes; I was quoting the Man himself.

I'm liking 'weasel of the subzero liquid persuasion'. Sounds like a Homeric epithet. :)

331 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:09:18pm

BTW - here is a group that, among other things, is trying to encourage the breeding of poplar and willow species.

[Link: www.fao.org...]

The problem with these trees is that stands tend to be monoclonal such that nurseries that grow them for sale tend to keep distributing genetically identical trees.

Concern is that, without natural genetic variation, these species will be more vulnerable to evolving pest and disease threats.

332 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:09:23pm

re: #324 redc1c4

i'm at the store, looking at two bags of lettuce, and they are identical, except one says "organic" and costs lots more: on my planet, we call that bullshit.

The difference between "organic" vegetables and non "organic" vegetables, apart from the price, is the amount of bull shit used in the production.

333 Erik The Red  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:10:13pm

Maybe Charles could make a LGF page or link so registered Lizards could become FB friends. Not everyone will want to do it, but some will.

334 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:10:26pm

re: #307 Ojoe

Passive solar heating of buildings is doable & has been for actually thousands of years, the Romans were doing it.

Link

BBL

The ancients also used sub-floor heating systems (hypocausts) thousands of years before they again became fashionable. They're sold as the latest thing in home heating now.

335 SurferDoc  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:10:27pm

re: #329 redc1c4

disgusted...

/same as always %-)

Well, then I am grateful to be just fed up.

336 Killgore Trout  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:10:28pm

re: #314 redc1c4

why is that a problem?

1) You don't want anything to do with Alex Jones. There are too many reasons to list.

2) He's paying people to vandalize public and private property.

337 Achilles Tang  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:10:36pm

re: #324 redc1c4

i'm at the store, looking at two bags of lettuce, and they are identical, except one says "organic" and costs lots more: on my planet, we call that bullshit.

i listened to some harridan whining to her daughter one day about how hard it was to find "organic eggs"... i asked her where she thought the others like the one's i was buying came from, from the egg factory?... she blew a gasket.

I just came back from Europe. The word over there is "Eco". I suppose it means the same, but it is everywhere. Pretty soon there will "Eco" and "reasonably priced", and soon after the latter will be gone.

338 The Left  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:10:41pm

re: #327 Cato the Elder

That's so true. And like "ugly" women, they're often the sweetest.

As a toad, not a prince, I was intrigued by an article in the NYT science section this week showing that women are more likely than men to use physical beauty as the major factor in deciding whether or not to have a one-night stand.

And men are supposed to be the superficial ones!

The difference is that men always use that as a criterion, whereas we do only when we already know we're not interested in your brain. :)

339 JacksonTn  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:10:52pm

re: #324 redc1c4

i'm at the store, looking at two bags of lettuce, and they are identical, except one says "organic" and costs lots more: on my planet, we call that bullshit.

i listened to some harridan whining to her daughter one day about how hard it was to find "organic eggs"... i asked her where she thought the others like the one's i was buying came from, from the egg factory?... she blew a gasket.

red ... I have some friends who do CSA from their farms and I know they do the best they can farming organically but they do it on a small scale and cannot do it with everything they grow ... it is more a "feel good" thing for people to buy something that says "organic" ... plant a tree in your back yard and grow it yourself if you truly want to know how it was grown or plant a garden if you have room ... it is great for kids and it is fun ...

340 jcm  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:11:08pm

re: #328 Locker

Well, I do buy eggs that claim to be from "free range" chickens, don't know about organic. Yes it's the animal lover in me that wants chickens to roam free before I roast em and serve em with lemon rice but hey, I'm an idealist.

I grew up with free range chickens... SOB's are hard to catch while mom is yelling at you to bring in dinner.

341 Shug  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:11:13pm

re: #308 Killgore Trout

The problem is that Alex Jones is having a contest to see who can hang the most Obama posters. Prize money was pretty good, IIRC.

I saw that.
1000 bucks of Crazy Money

342 redc1c4  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:11:19pm

re: #332 Alouette

The difference between "organic" vegetables and non "organic" vegetables, apart from the price, is the amount of bull shit used in the production marketing.

FTFY!

343 Salamantis  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:11:40pm

re: #327 Cato the Elder

That's so true. And like "ugly" women, they're often the sweetest.

As a toad, not a prince, I was intrigued by an article in the NYT science section this week showing that women are more likely than men to use physical beauty as the major factor in deciding whether or not to have a one-night stand.

And men are supposed to be the superficial ones!

One of the worst pickup lines in masher history is "You must be really bad in bed; you're much too gorgeous to have ever had to work on lovemaking skills!

/

344 Locker  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:12:14pm

re: #327 Cato the Elder
re: #333 Erik The Red

Maybe Charles could make a LGF page or link so registered Lizards could become FB friends. Not everyone will want to do it, but some will.

I would love that however he'd have to do duplicate administration in order to keep the accounts in synch. Otherwise I'd love to participate.

345 spidly  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:12:14pm

re: #332 Alouette

The difference between "organic" vegetables and non "organic" vegetables, apart from the price, is the amount of bull shit used in the production.

Organic cherry = rains came before harvest and they spit.
If it is small, bitter, bruised, and half eaten by pests I think it automatically goes into the organic category.

346 Aye Pod  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:12:16pm

re: #328 Locker

Well, I do buy eggs that claim to be from "free range" chickens, don't know about organic. Yes it's the animal lover in me that wants chickens to roam free before I roast em and serve em with lemon rice but hey, I'm an idealist.

With you on that, definitely.

347 SurferDoc  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:12:22pm

My XO used to run a chicken ranch and has told me about candling the eggs as a kid, then putting some of them in the Organic boxes and some in the regular market boxes. Same eggs.

348 Ojoe  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:12:41pm

re: #334 Cato the Elder

The Romans invented concrete too.

349 CyanSnowHawk  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:12:52pm

re: #333 Erik The Red

Maybe Charles could make a LGF page or link so registered Lizards could become FB friends. Not everyone will want to do it, but some will.

I believe this has been brought up before. I don't know what Charles thoughts on that were, but I get the impression that he was not interested.

350 Randall Gross  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:12:56pm

I was going to post Penn and Teller's Bullshit on organic foods, but it's had a DCMA takedown done by CBS?

351 Bagua  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:12:58pm

re: #337 Naso Tang

I just came back from Europe. The word over there is "Eco". I suppose it means the same, but it is everywhere. Pretty soon there will "Eco" and "reasonably priced", and soon after the latter will be gone.

It would make sense to have a re-branding, after all it's upsetting to some to have it pointed out that Cude Oil and plastics are also organic according to the traditional use of the word.

352 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:13:01pm

re: #348 Ojoe

The Romans invented concrete too.

Bay of Naples.

353 albusteve  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:13:12pm

re: #340 jcm

I grew up with free range chickens... SOB's are hard to catch while mom is yelling at you to bring in dinner.

invent a slingshot

354 redc1c4  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:13:16pm

re: #336 Killgore Trout

1) You don't want anything to do with Alex Jones. There are too many reasons to list.

2) He's paying people to vandalize public and private property.

it's just performance art, and therefore protected under the 1st Amendment...

leave it to you to want to censor free speech you don't agree with.

355 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:13:23pm

re: #338 iceweasel

The difference is that men always use that as a criterion, whereas we do only when we already know we're not interested in your brain. :)

Tous chez!

356 Soona'  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:13:28pm

re: #314 redc1c4

why is that a problem?

I see no problem.

357 JacksonTn  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:13:48pm

re: #340 jcm

I grew up with free range chickens... SOB's are hard to catch while mom is yelling at you to bring in dinner.

jcm .. and they are still hard to catch "after" you wring their necks ...

/peta hates me ...

358 Ojoe  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:13:54pm

re: #320 Racer X

I think our carbon is staving off the next ice age.

Probably temporarily.

359 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:14:06pm

re: #354 redc1c4

it's just performance art, and therefore protected under the 1st Amendment...

leave it to you to want to censor free speech you don't agree with.

Leave it to you to agree with Alex Jones.

360 Ojoe  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:14:15pm

re: #352 karmic_inquisitor

Pozzolana

361 Ojoe  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:14:31pm

BBL again

362 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:14:38pm

re: #348 Ojoe

The Romans invented concrete too.

And we know that because a lot of it is still in use.

363 jcm  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:14:51pm

re: #348 Ojoe

The Romans invented concrete too.

That hard to believe!

364 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:14:56pm

re: #330 iceweasel


It was either that or mustela glacies...

365 Achilles Tang  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:15:22pm

re: #338 iceweasel

The difference is that men always use that as a criterion, whereas we do only when we already know we're not interested in your brain. :)

Ahem... We men are very interested in brains, after the first test is passed...

366 Ojoe  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:15:46pm

"What have the Romans ever done for us?"

LOL

BBL!

367 redc1c4  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:15:58pm

re: #359 Cato the Elder

Leave it to you to agree with Alex Jones.

no.

but you *can* count on me mocking the self righteous amongst us...

like Kilgore the Elder weasel...

368 albusteve  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:16:05pm

re: #363 jcm

That hard to believe!

took an aggregate of skills it's true

369 jcm  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:16:19pm

re: #357 JacksonTn

jcm .. and they are still hard to catch "after" you wring their necks ...

/peta hates me ...

Axe...

Pot of boiling water to make the feathers easier to remove.

370 Locker  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:16:19pm

At the risk of getting a Cato-style fembot beat down, the one good thing about PETA is the gorgeous female celebrities who will get naked for the cause. GOOD LOOKING OUT PETA!

371 SixDegrees  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:16:44pm

re: #295 Locker

I've bought organic in the past but the following article was fairly eye opening:

[Link: www.timesonline.co.uk...]

Certainly true that there are no discernible health benefits. Other benefits - lower reliance on oil for food production, in the form of fertilizers and pesticides; less risk of producing antibiotic-resistant bacteria and viruses that could infect humans; more humane treatment of livestock - can also be debated, but are more tangible. Although the difference between organically grown fruits and vegetables and those produced by ordinary commercial methods are so small, as a practical matter, that those enchanted by pictures of cows and chickens lolling around in sunny meadows would be shocked, and if visiting either operation would be hard pressed to tell the difference.

See The Omnivore's Dilemma by Michael Pollan for a very good exploration of this whole debate.

372 redc1c4  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:16:44pm

re: #368 albusteve

took an aggregate of skills it's true

the science is rock solid though...

373 jcm  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:17:07pm

re: #368 albusteve

took an aggregate of skills it's true

Skill set!

374 Soona'  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:17:07pm

re: #327 Cato the Elder

That's so true. And like "ugly" women, they're often the sweetest.

As a toad, not a prince, I was intrigued by an article in the NYT science section this week showing that women are more likely than men to use physical beauty as the major factor in deciding whether or not to have a one-night stand.

And men are supposed to be the superficial ones!

Women are pigs. They just look at us as though we're just meat.
//200 lbs. of hamburger speaking.

375 redc1c4  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:17:14pm

re: #369 jcm

Axe...

Pot of boiling water to make the feathers easier to remove.

much less trouble to buy it at the store.

376 Killgore Trout  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:17:16pm

re: #354 redc1c4


it's just performance art, and therefore protected under the 1st Amendment...

leave it to you to want to censor free speech you don't agree with.


No, It's vandalism and it a crime.

377 Salamantis  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:17:23pm

re: #365 Naso Tang

Ahem... We men are very interested in brains, after the first test is passed...

Brains are important, even - perhaps especially - in beautiful women; what use is a sleek Ferrari if it has a dunce for a driver?

378 spidly  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:17:31pm

re: #348 Ojoe

The Romans invented concrete too.

After Cold Play, spending hours trying to get out of the amphitheater in Clark county, I thought of the history channel show about the Coloseum could be emptied in something insane like 10 minutes.

379 albusteve  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:17:32pm

re: #370 Locker

At the risk of getting a Cato-style fembot beat down, the one good thing about PETA is the gorgeous female celebrities who will get naked for the cause. GOOD LOOKING OUT PETA!

yes, style over substance

380 JacksonTn  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:17:34pm

re: #370 Locker

At the risk of getting a Cato-style fembot beat down, the one good thing about PETA is the gorgeous female celebrities who will get naked for the cause. GOOD LOOKING OUT PETA!

Locker ... you mean like Che's granddaughter? ...

381 redc1c4  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:17:44pm

re: #374 Soona'

Women are pigs. They just look at us as though we're just meat.
//200 lbs. of hamburger speaking.

that could be your problem...

i'm sausage. %-)

382 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:18:05pm

re: #370 Locker

Vacuous, overbearing, shrill self-righteous harpies don't really do it for me...

Bettie Paige, on the other hand...

383 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:18:14pm

re: #344 Locker

re: #333 Erik The Red

re: #327 Cato the Elder
re: #333 Erik The Red

I would love that however he'd have to do duplicate administration in order to keep the accounts in synch. Otherwise I'd love to participate.

Are you suggesting Erik and I become Facebook friends?

Well...I'm game if he is.

384 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:18:37pm

re: #372 redc1c4

the science is rock solid though...

Don't be so sure - the science has only recently formed and hasn't fully cured.

385 CyanSnowHawk  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:18:37pm

re: #370 Locker

At the risk of getting a Cato-style fembot beat down, the one good thing about PETA is the gorgeous female celebrities who will get naked for the cause. GOOD LOOKING OUT PETA!

I think that is more of a problem perpetuating the myth that good looking women are dumb bimbos. PETA taints everything they touch.

386 redc1c4  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:18:38pm

re: #376 Killgore Trout

No, It's vandalism and it a crime.

says you... why should your moral judgments be any more valid than anyone else's? you starting a religion or something?

387 Russkilitlover  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:18:42pm

re: #348 Ojoe

The Romans invented concrete too.

And the toga party, and orgies, and communal baths. Party animals fer sure.

388 Locker  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:18:45pm

re: #380 JacksonTn

I don't know but I'd be more than willing give her the once over. Link please!

389 Achilles Tang  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:18:57pm

re: #369 jcm

Axe...

Pot of boiling water to make the feathers easier to remove.

Only meat worth anything in free range is in the tits breasts. No hot water needed.

390 redc1c4  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:19:25pm

re: #382 Fenway_Nation

Vacuous, overbearing, shrill self-righteous harpies don't really do it for me...

Bettie Paige, on the other hand...

too bad: Kilgore was just about to ask you out for Friday night drinks and dinner.

391 jcm  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:19:27pm

re: #375 redc1c4

much less trouble to buy it at the store.

Easier but more expensive. Being poor, we'd buy chicks and a calf. Farmer would raise 'em for half the product.

392 Randall Gross  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:19:34pm

Organic Taste Test

NSFW

NSFW

393 jcm  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:20:06pm

re: #384 karmic_inquisitor

Don't be so sure - the science has only recently formed and hasn't fully cured.

We might have to keep chipping away at it.

394 Achilles Tang  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:20:07pm

re: #377 Salamantis

Brains are important, even - perhaps especially - in beautiful women; what use is a sleek Ferrari if it has a dunce for a driver?

Exactly! But do you buy before you test drive?

395 redc1c4  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:20:31pm

re: #384 karmic_inquisitor

Don't be so sure - the science has only recently formed and hasn't fully cured.

i was under the impression is was set...

396 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:20:52pm

re: #337 Naso Tang

I just came back from Europe. The word over there is "Eco". I suppose it means the same, but it is everywhere. Pretty soon there will "Eco" and "reasonably priced", and soon after the latter will be gone.

Zackly. And along with that they're going to start shaming people who use anything that is "carbon-tainted" (= anything that in the opinion of the eco-fascist in question took too much carbon to make, store, transport, purchase or use).

It's a brand-new term. Look it up.

397 Russkilitlover  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:21:11pm

re: #385 CyanSnowHawk

I think that is more of a problem perpetuating the myth that good looking women are dumb bimbos. PETA taints everything they touch.

They also do some excellent work. They just exposed a bunch of elephant mistreatment at one of the circus organizations. Also, whips on racehorses will be changed at Del Mar because of their efforts to get the stiff, hard whips that leave welts and scars on horses removed. I fully support them in these types of efforts.

398 Bagua  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:21:55pm

re: #371 SixDegrees

... those enchanted by pictures of cows and chickens lolling around in sunny meadows would be shocked, and if visiting either operation would be hard pressed to tell the difference.

See The Omnivore's Dilemma by Michael Pollan for a very good exploration of this whole debate.

We could do better by the chickens, introducing some reasonably humane treatment to such a delicious species should be a bi-partisan effort.

399 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:22:01pm

re: #367 redc1c4

no.

but you *can* count on me mocking the self righteous amongst us...

like Kilgore the Elder weasel...

I'm in good company, it seems.

400 Erik The Red  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:22:11pm

re: #383 Cato the Elder
Name is blue drop me a mail or use my surname to look me up. Just put Cato in your request.

401 redc1c4  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:22:28pm

re: #397 Russkilitlover

They also do some excellent work. They just exposed a bunch of elephant mistreatment at one of the circus organizations. Also, whips on racehorses will be changed at Del Mar because of their efforts to get the stiff, hard whips that leave welts and scars on horses removed. I fully support them in these types of efforts.

kinda like the arguement "well, at least they got the trains to run on time"...

they're scum, regardless of whatever maskirovka they use.

402 The Left  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:22:29pm

re: #364 Fenway_Nation

It was either that or mustela glacies...

I laughed at that too, although it does sound like a peculiarly repulsive form of dessert.

403 Randall Gross  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:22:39pm

re: #397 Russkilitlover

They also do some excellent work. They just exposed a bunch of elephant mistreatment at one of the circus organizations. Also, whips on racehorses will be changed at Del Mar because of their efforts to get the stiff, hard whips that leave welts and scars on horses removed. I fully support them in these types of efforts.

Yeah but they are dicks for that "holocaust on your plate" campaign.

404 Salamantis  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:22:41pm

re: #396 Cato the Elder

Zackly. And along with that they're going to start shaming people who use anything that is "carbon-tainted" (= anything that in the opinion of the eco-fascist in question took too much carbon to make, store, transport, purchase or use).

It's a brand-new term. Look it up.

Practically ALL food is 'carbon-tainted'; we are, after all, carbon based life forms. And so is our food.

405 SixDegrees  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:22:52pm

re: #316 JacksonTn

CtE ... buy ugly fruit at the farmers market ... ugly fruit is one way you can be "more sure" but not totally sure ...

True several years ago, but organic farmers have wised up, realized that looks are important, and now produce goods as visually appealing as those you'll find at any megamart.

Whether the methods used by each are different enough to justify the costs is another matter.

Right now, the organic strawberries at our local market taste much better than their commercially raised counterparts. It's a seasonal treat, no matter how you look at it, and I don't mind paying the extra buck per basket for the additional flavor.

Thanks to our modern world, fresh strawberries are now available year 'round - but those purchased out of season, probably grown on another continent and bred for shipment rather than flavor, suck and are not worth eating.

406 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:23:10pm

re: #402 iceweasel

re: #364 Fenway_Nation


I laughed at that too, although it does sound like a peculiarly repulsive form of dessert.

I hear it's popular in...er...Europe?

407 jcm  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:23:19pm

re: #387 Russkilitlover

And the toga party, and orgies, and communal baths. Party animals fer sure.

TOGA TOGA TOGA!

408 redc1c4  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:23:36pm

re: #399 Cato the Elder

I'm in good company, it seems.

which, of course, calls your judgment into question, but birds of a feather and all that.

409 JacksonTn  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:23:57pm

re: #388 Locker

I don't know but I'd be more than willing give her the once over. Link please!

Locker ... Che spawn and Carrots ...

Image: 1245324167_0.jpg.jpeg

410 Randall Gross  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:24:05pm

re: #405 SixDegrees

See the Penn and Teller vid above.

411 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:24:26pm

re: #400 Erik The Red

Name is blue drop me a mail or use my surname to look me up. Just put Cato in your request.

Done! Now I'm off for a swim.

412 Salamantis  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:25:19pm

re: #405 SixDegrees

True several years ago, but organic farmers have wised up, realized that looks are important, and now produce goods as visually appealing as those you'll find at any megamart.

Whether the methods used by each are different enough to justify the costs is another matter.

Right now, the organic strawberries at our local market taste much better than their commercially raised counterparts. It's a seasonal treat, no matter how you look at it, and I don't mind paying the extra buck per basket for the additional flavor.

Thanks to our modern world, fresh strawberries are now available year 'round - but those purchased out of season, probably grown on another continent and bred for shipment rather than flavor, suck and are not worth eating.

Sometimes natural - wild, free range - is significantly better. I luvz me some bass and some venison. And wild berries have a tastier bite.

413 Cato the Elder  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:25:34pm

re: #404 Salamantis

Practically ALL food is 'carbon-tainted'; we are, after all, carbon based life forms. And so is our food.

Which is why I mentally reached for the revolver I'm not allowed to carry in this state when I read the article where I first saw that term.

414 Soona'  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:25:39pm

re: #389 Naso Tang

Only meat worth anything in free range is in the tits breasts. No hot water needed.

Aahhh. Free-range breasts.

415 Erik The Red  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:25:59pm

re: #411 Cato the Elder

Done! Now I'm off for a swim.

Received. And added.

416 JacksonTn  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:26:04pm

re: #405 SixDegrees

True several years ago, but organic farmers have wised up, realized that looks are important, and now produce goods as visually appealing as those you'll find at any megamart.

Whether the methods used by each are different enough to justify the costs is another matter.

Right now, the organic strawberries at our local market taste much better than their commercially raised counterparts. It's a seasonal treat, no matter how you look at it, and I don't mind paying the extra buck per basket for the additional flavor.

Thanks to our modern world, fresh strawberries are now available year 'round - but those purchased out of season, probably grown on another continent and bred for shipment rather than flavor, suck and are not worth eating.

SD ... true so when people want the luxury of fruit in the off season and buy something from another country and it says "organic" ... well ... it's their money ...

417 redc1c4  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:26:38pm

well, i'm gonna go grill some dead animal for dinner, and chase the blond around the back yard, since thanks to global warming, it's not the 90's temps we should be getting here in the SFV in mid-august, but in the mid-70's...

just look at the weather charts for Burbank airport, and look at the high/low/current temp record for the month.

418 Bagua  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:27:42pm

re: #404 Salamantis

Practically ALL food is 'carbon-tainted'; we are, after all, carbon based life forms. And so is our food.

Don’t try to confuse the issue with facts, the issue is chickens, and their rights, or mustard...

419 Salamantis  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:28:36pm

re: #417 redc1c4

well, i'm gonna go grill some dead animal for dinner, and chase the blond around the back yard, since thanks to global warming, it's not the 90's temps we should be getting here in the SFV in mid-august, but in the mid-70's...

just look at the weather charts for Burbank airport, and look at the high/low/current temp record for the month.

It's August in Florida, and our high in Pensacola today - with no rain or cloud cover - was 86.

But it's not climate, it's weather...

420 CyanSnowHawk  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:28:37pm

re: #397 Russkilitlover

They also do some excellent work. They just exposed a bunch of elephant mistreatment at one of the circus organizations. Also, whips on racehorses will be changed at Del Mar because of their efforts to get the stiff, hard whips that leave welts and scars on horses removed. I fully support them in these types of efforts.

I do not support PETA because they are tainted. We may have some common causes, but that is not enough.
It would be like throwing in with GoV and Atlas Shrugs because they share some of the anti-Islamist causes while ignoring their less savory aspects.

I won't be around to respond to this. Works done today and heading home. Have a good weekend Lizards.

421 Achilles Tang  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:28:48pm

re: #414 Soona'

Aahhh. Free-range breasts.

I have Europe on my mind still, obviously.

422 Erik The Red  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:29:29pm

re: #417 redc1c4

well, i'm gonna go grill some dead animal for dinner, and chase the blond around the back yard, since thanks to global warming, it's not the 90's temps we should be getting here in the SFV in mid-august, but in the mid-70's...

just look at the weather charts for Burbank airport, and look at the high/low/current temp record for the month.

I hope it is not the ones you shoot out back.:)

423 spidly  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:29:33pm

re: #417 redc1c4

well, i'm gonna go grill some dead animal for dinner, and chase the blond around the back yard, since thanks to global warming, it's not the 90's temps we should be getting here in the SFV in mid-august, but in the mid-70's...

just look at the weather charts for Burbank airport, and look at the high/low/current temp record for the month.

remember from the how to confront the sceptic manual. If someone brings up local temperatures, tell them it is a global phenomenon; and if someone brings up the global record, point to a local phenomenon. Still trying to figure out if that thing was serious or not.

424 Locker  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:30:38pm

re: #409 JacksonTn

You are the man. Never seen a carrot necklace before...

425 SixDegrees  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:30:57pm

re: #397 Russkilitlover

They also do some excellent work. They just exposed a bunch of elephant mistreatment at one of the circus organizations. Also, whips on racehorses will be changed at Del Mar because of their efforts to get the stiff, hard whips that leave welts and scars on horses removed. I fully support them in these types of efforts.

Whatever rare success they may manage is completely eclipsed by their lunacy and support of their terrorist affiliate, ALF.

I have personally received death threats from PETA because of my support for the use of insulin derived from cattle and swine prior to the availability of bacterially produced products. In my view, PETA is a scourge that needs to be burned off the face of the planet by any means necessary.

As a point of interest, PETA is also responsible for the deaths of countless thousands of animals placed in their care each year through "adoption" services, gassed and dumped in the trash in the belief that they are better off dead than living as "slaves" of humans. Their ALF counterparts likewise condemn thousands of animals to slow, cruel death when they are "liberated" from farms and research facilities into an environment they are wholly unable to survive in.

Fuck PETA and all they do and stand for.

426 SixDegrees  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:32:03pm

re: #412 Salamantis

Sometimes natural - wild, free range - is significantly better. I luvz me some bass and some venison. And wild berries have a tastier bite.

Also true, and also explored in The Omnivore's Dilemma mentioned above. That's a whole different kind of eating, though.

427 Bagua  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:32:10pm

re: #417 redc1c4

well, i'm gonna go grill some dead animal for dinner, and chase the blond around the back yard, since thanks to global warming, it's not the 90's temps we should be getting here in the SFV in mid-august, but in the mid-70's...

just look at the weather charts for Burbank airport, and look at the high/low/current temp record for the month.

Not to worry, should it go the other way at least the Mustard will adapt.

428 Erik The Red  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:37:13pm

re: #424 Locker

Shoot me an email and I will add you as a friend. Just put your LGF name in the mail

429 spidly  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 5:42:56pm

has anyone looked into connecting a smokestack to some big artificial pool full of frankenpondscum with wicked metabolic rates to cheaply appease the Meenie Greenies?

430 really grumpy big dog johnson  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 6:00:38pm

You can make yourself believe almost anything, especially if everyone around you is promoting those beliefs.

The trendy thing here in Boulder is to declare that this has been the hottest summer in many years. But the facts indicate that this summer has actually been milder than most.

Could it be that too much exposure to global warming gobbledygook has left the populace of Boulder in a radically evolved stance, in only a few short years?

Give me 95% accuracy in the weather forecast of a mere five days away, then lets talk climate.

So says a very grumpy grumpy, and I'm not the least disturbed in saying it.

431 Aye Pod  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 6:03:21pm

re: #392 Thanos

Organic Taste Test

NSFW

NSFW

I saw a programme in which UK organic food producer/advocate Hugh Fearnly-Whittingstall set up a blind taste test with his own organic chickens and some standard supermarket produce. To his surprise, there was no overall prefrence among the tasters.

432 [deleted]  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 6:07:28pm
433 Aye Pod  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 6:36:11pm

Antarctic glacier 'thinning fast'

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]


One of the largest glaciers in Antarctica is thinning four times faster than it was 10 years ago, according to research seen by the BBC.
434 MacGregor  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 6:43:21pm

re: #432 taxfreekiller

If I were a ski property mogul, I would buy during solar maximums and sell during minimums.

I'm still paying the heating bill from last winter and if the temps in CT remain this unusually low, next winter's energy bills are going to be killer.

The good thing is we're two/three months into hurricane season and we haven't had a named hurricane.

435 Reluctant Democrat  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 6:43:27pm
The changing climate had, in other words, driven the field mustard plants to evolve over just a few years.

Does the change in growth actually prove that?

Mebbe.

Let's see some controlled experiments.

436 Right Brain  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 6:43:40pm

This study claims that the plants changed their genetic make-up in response to a warm-spell. This is exactly what doesn't happen, and it smacks of Lamarckian genetics-changing-to-fit-environment thought that preceded Charles Darwin. Some plants happen to have a different genetic make-up that responds well to warmer weather, these would appear gradually over a long long period of time.

What Mr. Weis was observing was a plant that could behave in different ways, much like a human could don a coat, or not. Carry water in a container, or not. There is no genetic change here, simply a clarification of the versatility a mustard seed.

437 Charles Johnson  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 6:51:57pm

Mm hmm.

438 garycooper  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 6:57:13pm

To quote myself: "Less than a degree in the past century, and nothing at all in the last decade, on land or sea."

'Tis clearly a strange force to be reckoned with.

439 JacksonTn  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 7:18:01pm

When I was talking about "organic" food ... I was not talking about "hormone" injected cows ... I think that is not a good thing and I do buy some meat from friends who raise hormone-free cows ... if I had small children now if I could I would feed them meat that does not have hormones added ... and I do like the variety at some more expensive groceries but not because of the "organic" selection ... and more and more regular grocery stores are including more variety so I go to more "organic" type of stores less and less now ... rabbit is something else that is great but some people don't like the idea of eating rabbit ... most people who raise meat are inspected and it is a more involved inspection than crops ... they actually test the animals so it is harder to not go by the rules ... but you never know totally unless you raise it yourself and most cannot because of where they live or other reasons ...

440 Athens Runaway  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 7:38:54pm

re: #430 really grumpy big dog johnson

You can make yourself believe almost anything, especially if everyone around you is promoting those beliefs.

The trendy thing here in Boulder is to declare that this has been the hottest summer in many years. But the facts indicate that this summer has actually been milder than most.

Could it be that too much exposure to global warming gobbledygook has left the populace of Boulder in a radically evolved stance, in only a few short years?

Give me 95% accuracy in the weather forecast of a mere five days away, then lets talk climate.

So says a very grumpy grumpy, and I'm not the least disturbed in saying it.

HERESY! The science is settled, and anyone who says otherwise is a Ron Paul Truther Islamic Fundamentalist!

441 Athens Runaway  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 7:39:31pm

re: #440 Athens Runaway

Forgot my /

442 swamprat  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 8:37:25pm

re: #437 Charles
Post two or three more threads, so they'll come out and play.

443 swamprat  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 8:42:32pm

I'm a scientist, and I have come to different conclusions, based on my research, which I can assure you has no particular bias, or agenda. I did not see this thread till just now, and I though others would be interested in my findings.

444 swamprat  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 8:44:09pm

re: #440 Athens Runaway

You caught the big kahuna, better throw him back.

445 lostlakehiker  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 9:17:27pm

re: #40 SixDegrees

Sure - I got that part. I'm pointing out that there's no new genetic information in the more recent population, just a shift in prevalence over time in what was already there.

I just like to be explicit about what's actually taking place. When you say things like "The plants adapted..." it sounds as though the genetic changes seen were induced by some external factor - like climate in this case. But that isn't true at all. The genetic variation was already sitting there in the population, and the shift in climate shifted the point of successful adaptation within that existing variation - it didn't introduce the variation, though.


Gene frequencies are information. There can be considerable evolution in a species without any new mutations. Changes in gene frequencies can work major modifications of body build and so on, enough so that two populations differing just due to gene frequency differences would be deemed separate species by biologists.

446 mich-again  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 9:19:53pm
“Darwin thought evolution was gradual, and that it would take longer than the lifetime of a scientist to observe even the slightest change,” says Weis, who is now at the University of Toronto. “That might be the average case, but evolution can also be very rapid under the right conditions. Climate change is going to be one of those things where the conditions are met.”

My main question about the prevailing wisdom regarding evolution is demonstrated with empirical evidence again. That would be the notion that random mutations are the driving force of evolution.

If it was just random mutations that made some of these plants more resilient than others in light of the changing climate, would we see such widespread changes so quickly? Something must be happening to multiple plants simultaneously, some sort of programmed response in the DNA to the changing environment. If that is the case, then the mutations aren't random, they are a response.

447 mich-again  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 9:28:18pm

And I'm still amazed that 47 million years ago, evolution had already figured out that 10 fingers and 10 toes was the best combination. Ida. I guess all the mutated creatures all that time who were born with either more or fewer fingers and toes couldn't take over the ten-toed ones. A better question is why 10?

448 bosforus  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 9:45:32pm

re: #1 buzzsawmonkey

I'm watching for the huge thumbs that are sure to evolve as a result of text messaging.

I believe you are right about the large thumbs. Being able to text in no way increases one's chances of propagating. Texting while driving, however, can put an end to one's innate, genetic need to update your Twitter to text about the very car accident you're causing by texting. Therefore, larger thumbs win in the end.

449 Optimizer  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 10:35:39pm

Well, the idea that plants evolve to meet the demands of their changing environment should hardly be a newsflash to anybody except evolution deniers. The smaller, and less complex, the organism, the faster evolution can do its thing. My impression is that with microbes, you can practically just watch evolution sometimes. Witnessing a time frame of a few years for a small plant to evolve doesn't seem especially newsworthy.

What this article seems to really be about is alarmist propaganda to try to get people excited about AGW, with the notion that "AGW is so bad that the plants had to evolve". The sermon that shows up in only the third paragraph makes that pretty clear.

While this presupposes that the drought actually represented any kind of unusual "climate change" at all (which is suspect in the first place, much less the alleged human-induced causation), the irony of the whole thing is that the phenomenon being observed serves to work against the doom-and-gloom scenarios - it says that agriculture can adjust (so why worry so much?).

So as AGW agitprop, it's not even very good agitporp.

Oh, and it also falls in the category of being a case of "If the climate changes in one specific spot, it's not indicative of climate change over the whole world - unless it supports our theory."

450 Optimizer  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 10:41:51pm

re: #447 mich-again

And I'm still amazed that 47 million years ago, evolution had already figured out that 10 fingers and 10 toes was the best combination. Ida. I guess all the mutated creatures all that time who were born with either more or fewer fingers and toes couldn't take over the ten-toed ones. A better question is why 10?

That IS an interesting observation. I guess there must be some non-obvious thing that's special about ten.

Makes the whole decimal system thing we humans have gotten into seem just a tad less arbitrary...

451 freetoken  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 10:44:22pm

re: #450 Optimizer

10 is an even number... and 10 fingers are the result of the lateral symmetry so common in animals. So the question to ask is: why 5?

Primates have 5 digits on each leg/arm. Other animals have an even number, or 3.

452 leftover54  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 11:45:42pm

re: #44 friarstale

I'm in upstate NY too. The temps this summer have been unreal, Overnight lows at the end of July down into the low 40's here. I actually had to turn tthe heat on for awhile one day a few weeks ago. And I never keep my place warmer than 62 - no matter how cold outside. Nothing really to do with this debate here just wondering if you experienced any of the same ? I do remember it snowing on Mothers Day 1975 (?) maybe '74 - only 50 miles north of NYC. Spring definatalty 'springs' earlier in NY these days. When I was a kid the saying was 'April showers bring May flowers'. Hell, often the trees are in bloom by mid April. Not a one year oddity either - has been happening since at least the mid 80's. I dunno, every time I remind myself that water makes up 75% of this planet, I can't help but think how small we are in comparison - even at 8 billion. There's still a lot of uninhabited land in that 25% and overall, how much do we occupy of the 25% ? Nothing scientific going on here obviously LOL !! Just a gut feeling - can humans really be such a significant footprint on this planet so as to bring about climate change - even if we had a mind to do it ?
Not to worry though, I'm old and won't be around too much longer so dummies like me will be Darwined outta the system. Someone else's turn to worry.

453 leftover54  Fri, Aug 14, 2009 11:50:02pm

re: #451 freetoken

4 fingers and opposable thumb(s) ?? Hmmm, what about toes then...damn,now I'll be up all night...

This little piggy went to market...

454 leftover54  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 12:00:43am

Binary system come 1st or the 10 digits ? I mean how ya goin' to count to 10 on your fingers if... damn it man, then why not 4 ? No 10 isn't dividable by...OK, then 2 was a possibility but then how could we bowl then ?? Hey, how come when I count on my fingers backwards, starting from ten, I get down to six on one hand and then I add the 5 from the other and I come up with 11 ? 6 + 5 = 11 right ? This stuff is giving me a headache.
3am, dead thread, what the hell...

455 leftover54  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 12:13:40am

re: #449 Optimizer
re: "...falls in the category of being a case of "If the climate changes in one specific spot, it's not indicative of climate change over the whole world - unless it supports our theory."

You can't imagine how many people I've heard comment on the exceptionally cool summer we're having in upstate NY and saying 'yeah, tell ME about global warming, then why was I freezing last night ?'.
Of course they never think to check the weather patterns around the country/world. Even downstate (NYC), only 200 miles south, didn't have the extremes we've had this summer.

456 Manker  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 12:17:02am

re: #436 Right Brain

This study claims that the plants changed their genetic make-up in response to a warm-spell. This is exactly what doesn't happen, and it smacks of Lamarckian genetics-changing-to-fit-environment thought that preceded Charles Darwin. Some plants happen to have a different genetic make-up that responds well to warmer weather, these would appear gradually over a long long period of time.

What Mr. Weis was observing was a plant that could behave in different ways, much like a human could don a coat, or not. Carry water in a container, or not. There is no genetic change here, simply a clarification of the versatility a mustard seed.

re: #437 Charles

Actually Charles, 436 is quite right, and reading the article, there is a MASSIVE HOLE in it. There is never a mention of Epigenetics, while I won't go on for pages, I'd recommend that you read up about it. But a basic description of Epigenetics is that it is the chemistry on our genes. Have ever wondered why all our cells have the genetic information but yet we have all this variety of cells; heart, lung, neurons, etc.? The reason is because of epigenetics, it acts as a kind of chemical time-space control. By methylating/acetylating (and numerous other markers) certain genes or histones can be tuned on and off. And this is heritable between cells, certain states of genes being on, off, and tuned to be partially on or off.

The fact is that the phenomena thats described here sounds exactly like an epigenetic factor

"The newer plants grew to smaller sizes, produced fewer flowers, and, most dramatically, produced those flowers eight days earlier in the spring."

Everything here sounds directly from an epigenetic text book. It's not to say that the plants aren't adapting, but this is far from convincing that it's a real change in the genetic code. It could just be genes are being turned off (not mutated or altered in any way), and epigenetic signals which do control blooming are simply being set to bloom earlier.

While this is definitely an interesting case, it does not prove an 'evolutionary explosion' the way that the scientists would like it. The changes still do require HUGE amounts of time.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Read this to get an overview

457 Scorch  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 3:57:44am

I get a kick out of these studies being used for propaganda. Plants change to their environment, always have and always will. A mustard plant matures early? It's called heat units and this always changes. You pick up a bag of seeds and it says 60 days to maturity but if you have warmer days at that particular time it might be 50 days or 70 days if you have cooler days. In my lifetime we have had 3 severe droughts in our area and these began in 1950. Our crops behave differently every year from when we put the first seed in the ground till we finish harvest. Sheesh I hope they are not actually paying these people for their studies when all they have to do is go over to their closest farm and ask how plants behave under different conditions. You might even get a cold glass of tea if it's hot that day or steaming cup of coffee if it's cold. Yeah you got it, even that old farmer has learned to adapt to make themselves comfortable under ever changing conditions.

458 freetoken  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:06:06am

re: #457 Scorch

Your failing.

Again.

459 freetoken  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 6:10:27am

re: #458 freetoken

PIMF "You're"

However, "your failing" also works in this case.

460 hellosnackbar  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 7:22:54am

re#cato the elder
A new Islamist movement that believes Hamas is not Islamic enough??
Curious how dogma driven fanatics always FIND IDEOLOGICAL DIFFERENCES and then start killing one another.
Remember "the popular front for the liberation of Judea and the Judean front for the liberation of Judean people??(something like that!) in "The life of Brian.?"
Islam an ongoing black comedy!

461 Cato  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 8:29:50am

re: #456 Manker

Excellent analysis. I was not aware of epigenetics, but I was going to say that it reminded me of Lysenkoism. All we would have to do is grow some seeds in a particularly dry or cold climate for a year or two to "teach" them what climate they should thrive in.

462 Ian MacGregor  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:07:02am

While I think it's a certainty that life evolved, I cannot believe it does so in a dozen years. Tree-ring data has been used to tell when the trees grew well and when they did not which has been linked to climate. I suspect the same thing is happening here.

When i lived in a the "great white north", the grass turned green early when spring came early, yet when winter hung on things were delayed.

Even the people apparently evolved shedding their winter coats earlier during an early spring than during a late one.

463 SouthTexas  Sat, Aug 15, 2009 9:21:45am

There are hundreds, if not thousands of examples of this in south Texas right now, basically because we haven't had any substantial rain since last September. This covers native to introduced species including crops. All produced smaller versions of the originals as well as fewer blooms/fruit/seeds/etc. in a shorter time frame. Proof of genetic change or simply results of the lack of water?

Bet they are the same as the originals if and when it ever rains again.

464 Scorch  Sun, Aug 16, 2009 8:17:00am

re: #458 freetoken

Your failing.

Again.

You on the sugar tit also?

465 Scorch  Sun, Aug 16, 2009 8:26:47am

I also forgot to mention their storing of seed for several years even if it is in cold storage. The original seed will lose it's vigor that is why state agriculture bodies inspect certified seeds for germ and vigor. Most growers will not accept seed which is stored for more than one year even if under good conditions.

466 Charles Johnson  Sun, Aug 16, 2009 11:15:42am

re: #465 Scorch

I also forgot to mention their storing of seed for several years even if it is in cold storage. The original seed will lose it's vigor that is why state agriculture bodies inspect certified seeds for germ and vigor. Most growers will not accept seed which is stored for more than one year even if under good conditions.

I think you should contact Professor Weis immediately and let him know how wrong he is. I'm sure he's never considered the points you're raising.

/dripping

467 Scorch  Mon, Aug 17, 2009 12:09:45am

re: #466 Charles

/dripping

I expected nothing less.


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