Tea Party Logo: Lifted From Communist Designs

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The threatening clenched fist logo of the “9-12 Taxpayer March on DC” (organizer of the Washington DC tea party) is clearly based on the logo of the Progressive Labor Party — a group whose stated purpose is to “smash capitalism.”

Unity and resistance are what the fist represented in 1917, when it was first employed by the Industrial Workers of the World, a union organization founded by socialists. And in the 1940s, when it stood for various nations’ communist party organizations.

That’s also what it meant when it was revived in the 1960s, appearing as a symbol for the SDS, as well as anti-war and feminist movements. It was the basis for the black-power salute given by John Carlos and Tommie Smith at the 1968 Mexico City Olympics. And today, it’s the symbol for the Progressive Labor Party (pictured), a political outfit whose website says it “fights to smash capitalism.”

UPDATE at 9/14/09 9:38:41 am:

Apparently, people really don’t want to believe this.

From the 912 FAQ:

1. What is the symbolism of your logo?

We have to make sure this is a protest against what’s going on in DC, and we have to convey that image to the country and the world. I fear that if we start to lose that edge, the politicians won’t take us as seriously, and will write us off. We’ve been studying and applying the tactics of the left for a long time, and although we despise their bad ideas, they have us beat when it comes to symbolism, activism and dominating the public debate. We can learn from them and co-opt their symbols, some of their messages and even their tactics.

We have to remember that this is a March on Washington, which should conjure up images of the street protests in other countries. If we want the politicians to pay attention, we believe it is imperative that we keep our edge, tailor our message narrowly and maintain the populist imagery.

Jump to bottom

562 comments

1 Big Steve  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:17:33am

A Fists of Fury Fight

2 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:17:33am

Oh no!

3 MJ  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:18:45am

A brief history of the "clenched fist" image

"...Early examples of the fist in graphic art can be found at least as far back as 1917 [1], with another example from Mexico in 1948 [2]. Fist images, in some form, were used in numerous political graphic genres, including the French and Soviet revolutions, the United States Communist Party, and the Black Panther Party for Self-defense..."

[Link: www.docspopuli.org...]

4 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:19:06am

They're being environmentally responsible by recycling!

/

5 Big Steve  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:19:28am

I do have a question...the Houston Chronicle is reporting that Dick Armey was the organizer of this past weekend's Tea Party in DC? Were there multiple hands in it?

6 jamgarr  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:20:01am

ENOUGH!!

7 kf  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:20:06am

Didn't they know that the Progressive Labor Party invented the fist?

8 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:20:28am

We shall not, we shall not unclench,
We shall not, we shall not unclench,
Just like an armadillo in a paaanic,
We shall not unclench.

9 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:20:34am

We will bury you!

10 Dianna  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:20:37am

Quick! Someone embed Kung Fu Fighting!

11 [deleted]  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:21:17am
12 Charles Johnson  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:21:29am

Note: I'm removing all links to Pajamas Media from LGF, after they decided to feature a white supremacist's article as their lead story today.

13 Flyovercountry  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:21:30am

Great job in exposing Beck as a Communist. Now, we need someone as loony as Beck to present this evidence on video. Where on earth will you find that?

14 lawhawk  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:21:36am

Moronic convergence.

15 Dianna  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:21:41am

re: #10 Dianna

Darn. That was supposed to have worked. Hmph!

16 Dianna  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:22:07am

Back to work.

17 viciouscircledammit  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:22:15am

It's just a fist

18 Bagua  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:22:17am

Logged on, saw a red -1 ding on the front post, Canceled by the ever vigilant Bagua.

19 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:22:31am

re: #13 Flyovercountry

Great job in exposing Beck as a Communist. Now, we need someone as loony as Beck to present this evidence on video. Where on earth will you find that?

McKinney, of course.

20 Charles Johnson  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:22:37am

The down-dingers are working fast today.

21 MandyManners  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:23:10am

re: #20 Charles

The down-dingers are working fast today.

So are the up-dingers.

22 johnnygriswold  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:23:22am

Type "fist logo" in Google ... Are all of the logos that come up also lifted from the PLP logo?

Make no mistake, I think Beck is an idiot, but this is a stretch in my opinion.

23 Bagua  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:23:25am

re: #17 viciouscircledammit

It's just a fist

You are correct, "it's just a fist" copied from Communist propaganda.

24 non obama mama  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:23:50am

I don't see the two fists as the same.

The communist fist is pointed up with a star.

The Tea Party fist is slanted and has no star, plus has no muscular definition, as the communist fist has.

Lots of political movements have used fists as their logos - I don't see this one.

Mind you, I don't like the tea parties (after the images I saw from the 9/12 rally). But the comparison here of logos does not pan out, IMHO.

25 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:23:55am

re: #22 johnnygriswold

It wouldn't be so bad, if it wasn't for the fact that the artwork is a direct lift.

26 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:24:22am

Neither are Becks logo.

27 badger1970  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:24:23am

Were there 10,000 fists in the air?

28 Dianna  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:24:25am

re: #21 MandyManners

So are the up-dingers.

Yep.

Back to work for real, this time.

29 Charles Johnson  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:24:28am

re: #22 johnnygriswold

Type "fist logo" in Google ... Are all of the logos that come up also lifted from the PLP logo?

Make no mistake, I think Beck is an idiot, but this is a stretch in my opinion.

It's not a stretch at all. Even the color is exactly the same. It's directly lifted from the PLP logo, with only very minor changes. It's obvious.

30 MandyManners  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:24:28am

Instead of dinging Charles, why not check out the FACTS?

31 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:24:59am

re: #12 Charles

Note: I'm removing all links to Pajamas Media from LGF, after they decided to feature a white supremacist's article as their lead story today.

I still get their email, but you made me check - and there is one article by Robert Stacy McCain.
Time for me to unsubscribe.

32 MandyManners  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:25:04am

re: #22 johnnygriswold

Type "fist logo" in Google ... Are all of the logos that come up also lifted from the PLP logo?

Make no mistake, I think Beck is an idiot, but this is a stretch in my opinion.

Did you read the LA Times link Charles provided?

33 Rancher  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:25:07am

Also a symbol from militant black movements in the seventies. Probably a sign of protest if you look at all the artwork throughout our history, but that's a guess. As most of you have probably noticed, I know Charles has and doesn't agree, I think that you make a mistake labeling this movement as mostly consisting of Paulians, racists, birthers, and truthers. Certainly they are a part, they would latch on to any Obama protest movement. They may, and I think Charles has done a good job of pointing this out, they may have had a large part in organizing these events. However I think these protesters represent a huge section of America that is really scared of the direction we are going in, larger government, larger debt, and a corresponding loss of freedom and liberty that goes along with that. The Democrats are making a huge mistake in ignoring this movement.

34 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:25:44am

re: #12 Charles

Note: I'm removing all links to Pajamas Media from LGF, after they decided to feature a white supremacist's article as their lead story today.

I still get their email, but you made me check - and there is one article by Robert Stacy McCain.
Time for me to unsubscribe.

35 MandyManners  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:25:48am

re: #22 johnnygriswold

Type "fist logo" in Google ... Are all of the logos that come up also lifted from the PLP logo?

Make no mistake, I think Beck is an idiot, but this is a stretch in my opinion.

Did you read the LA Times link Charles provided?

36 Bagua  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:26:12am

re: #24 non obama mama

I don't see the two fists as the same.

The communist fist is pointed up with a star.


It is clearly derivative, if there was an Obama poster this similar, everyone would be howling that it is identical. We are seeing selective bias yet again.

37 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:26:59am

Hmm - it did post the first time. Couldn't find it; getting spinning hamster wheel of, well, not death, but not at all health, either.

38 Big Steve  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:27:05am

You know the more I look at the Taxpayer fist you can just almost see that middle finger just itching to shoot out. Don't believe me, go look again.

39 MandyManners  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:27:29am

Don't forget the Soviet-inspired propaganda zombie found in support of FCBBHO during the campaign.

40 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:27:34am

re: #36 Bagua

It is clearly derivative, if there was an Obama poster this similar, everyone would be howling that it is identical. We are seeing selective bias yet again.

I agree that an Obama poster would be getting the howls, but I do think it's fairly generic. A long-standing lefty image, though, so it's funny that they're using it.

41 KingKenrod  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:27:37am

Last week, the first thing I thought when I saw the 9/12 logo with the raised fists was "That's communist propaganda" and then I thought "What moron was in charge of approving that?".

42 Rancher  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:27:45am

re: #20 Charles

The down-dingers are working fast today.

:)

43 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:27:51am

re: #37 Kosh's Shadow

Hmm - it did post the first time. Couldn't find it; getting spinning hamster wheel of, well, not death, but not at all health, either.

I'm showing both you and MM double posting. Obviously the two of you had very important messages to convey.

44 Charpete67  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:28:03am

re: #36 Bagua

It is clearly derivative, if there was an Obama poster this similar, everyone would be howling that it is identical. We are seeing selective bias yet again.

...and we would be decrying them for doing so.

45 MandyManners  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:28:14am

re: #37 Kosh's Shadow

Hmm - it did post the first time. Couldn't find it; getting spinning hamster wheel of, well, not death, but not at all health, either.

Same here. I c/p my post, refreshed and then re-posted. It posted twice.

46 Killgore Trout  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:28:29am

From the 912 faq
1. What is the symbolism of your logo?

We have to make sure this is a protest against what’s going on in DC, and we have to convey that image to the country and the world. I fear that if we start to lose that edge, the politicians won’t take us as seriously, and will write us off. We’ve been studying and applying the tactics of the left for a long time, and although we despise their bad ideas, they have us beat when it comes to symbolism, activism and dominating the public debate. We can learn from them and co-opt their symbols, some of their messages and even their tactics.

We have to remember that this is a March on Washington, which should conjure up images of the street protests in other countries. If we want the politicians to pay attention, we believe it is imperative that we keep our edge, tailor our message narrowly and maintain the populist imagery.

47 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:28:33am

Beck logo.
[Link: www.the912project.com...]

48 MandyManners  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:28:48am

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49 Bagua  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:28:59am

re: #6 jamgarr

ENOUGH!!

Agreed! Enough of these distortions from the Simpering Idiot Glenn Beck and these tea party racists.

50 non obama mama  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:29:14am

re: #36 Bagua

It is clearly derivative, if there was an Obama poster this similar, everyone would be howling that it is identical. We are seeing selective bias yet again.

In this case, far too many political movements have fists attached to them.

The red color is not such a unique color, either.

I think there are far scarier issues afoot. Firstly, the image of the fist generally denotes militancy (not communism, but some form of militancy). Secondly, the images from 9/12 were troubling. So when you combine the two, you see there is something to watch out for.

This link here to the communist party - it is tenuous at best. (and not the big story, anyway)

51 Big Steve  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:29:44am

re: #47 Cannadian Club Akbar

Beck logo.
[Link: www.the912project.com...]

Gad...that's one bad looking rug on Chuck Norris's head in the vid clip.

52 J.S.  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:30:22am

When I saw that logo, it did remind me of the Communist Party (jdl uses a somewhat similar logo as well).

53 MajorTom  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:30:27am

Beyond the similarity of any "clenched fist" designs, I don't see enough similarity to say that it was "taken directly from" the PLP logo.

Even if it were, I would have to say "So what?". It's rediculously unlikely that the organizers are seekret commies, so if they appropriated a commie symbol as a sort of subliminal middle finger to the Left, so be it.

54 Oh no...Sand People!  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:30:27am

re: #47 Cannadian Club Akbar

Beck logo.
[Link: www.the912project.com...]

That's what I thought also was the logo.

55 Killgore Trout  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:30:30am

re: #50 non obama mama

This link here to the communist party - it is tenuous at best.


It's very intentional. See #46

56 MandyManners  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:30:48am

What I would like people to think about is that old propaganda techniques can be used by any and all sides in modern debate. That does not mean that a particular side endorses the ideology of the source of that propaganda. Tools and techniques are neutral.

57 Killgore Trout  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:30:51am

re: #53 MajorTom

See #46

58 Oh no...Sand People!  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:31:12am

Should that be the 'throbbing logo'?

59 Charles Johnson  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:31:43am

re: #47 Cannadian Club Akbar

Beck logo.
[Link: www.the912project.com...]

Uh, no.

Beck logo: [Link: 912dc.org...]

60 [deleted]  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:31:46am
61 Pianobuff  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:31:48am

My first thought when seeing the 9/12 logo (mind you, this is before seeing the communist logo above) was that it was a snarky visual response to Obama's previous speech referencing clenched fists.

62 Killgore Trout  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:32:02am
63 Oh no...Sand People!  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:32:40am

re: #56 MandyManners

What I would like people to think about is that old propaganda techniques can be used by any and all sides in modern debate. That does not mean that a particular side endorses the ideology of the source of that propaganda. Tools and techniques are neutral.

Exactly! Which is why I love wearing my purple, blue, pink, black and white striped belt! Fruitariffic!

I am secure enough of my manliness to wear it...in fact..if I were a woman I would want me.

64 lurking faith  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:32:59am

re: #12 Charles

Note: I'm removing all links to Pajamas Media from LGF, after they decided to feature a white supremacist's article as their lead story today.

Damn, that's sad.

/going for understatement of the week award

65 MandyManners  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:33:05am

re: #60 MikeySDCA

Plagiarism is the sincerest form of flattery.

Tools are tools.

66 [deleted]  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:33:19am
67 MandyManners  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:33:36am

re: #63 Oh no...Sand People!

Exactly! Which is why I love wearing my purple, blue, pink, black and white striped belt! Fruitariffic!

I am secure enough of my manliness to wear it...in fact..if I were a woman I would want me.

Do you have a pink Izod?

68 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:33:53am

re: #50 non obama mama

Many unsavory political movements use the upraised clenched fist; by using it, they get the baggage associated with the symbol. They know what they're trying to say, and I don't like it.

69 MandyManners  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:34:13am

re: #61 Pianobuff

My first thought when seeing the 9/12 logo (mind you, this is before seeing the communist logo above) was that it was a snarky visual response to Obama's previous speech referencing clenched fists.

I hadn't thought about that.

70 SixDegrees  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:34:19am

re: #50 non obama mama

In this case, far too many political movements have fists attached to them.

Like who?

71 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:34:41am

re: #66 buzzsawmonkey

But, you see, the Beck logo has three fists. This symbolizes the Trinity, and thus shows the underlying Christian base of his group.

SO they hate Jews?///

72 MJ  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:34:51am

re: #62 Killgore Trout

Oswald!

Patty Hearst:

[Link: www.sfgate.com...]

73 [deleted]  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:35:06am
74 Oh no...Sand People!  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:35:07am

re: #67 MandyManners

Do you have a pink Izod?

Paul Smith...but close enough I guess...

75 sattv4u2  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:35:56am

The clenched fist has long been a sign of protest against whomever the 'power" is

Image: 5255_117193193509_520453509_2322717_952125_t.jpg

Sly Stallone even made a movie about a union whose initial were F.I.S.T..

[Link: www.imdb.com...]

76 Killgore Trout  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:36:00am

re: #72 MJ

Good one.

77 MandyManners  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:36:26am

re: #68 Kosh's Shadow

Many unsavory political movements use the upraised clenched fist; by using it, they get the baggage associated with the symbol. They know what they're trying to say, and I don't like it.

Iv'e seen it used in Soviet propaganda and in the 60s/70s during the rise of the Black Panthers. Now, some conservatives are using it.

78 Rancher  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:36:26am

re: #5 Big Steve

I do have a question...the Houston Chronicle is reporting that Dick Armey was the organizer of this past weekend's Tea Party in DC? Were there multiple hands in it?

I saw a bunch of bikers who rode up there independent of any other organization.

79 Bagua  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:36:44am

re: #50 non obama mama

In this case, far too many political movements have fists attached to them.

The red color is not such a unique color, either.

True, Hezballah comes to mind, as does the Black Panther Party, however this one is in the archetypal Communist Red color and is clearly derived from the PLP, perhaps the organizers were unaware? Makes no difference, if it was a Pro-Obama poster you would be all over it and raise no question.

It is and Inconvenient Truth.

80 non obama mama  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:37:03am

re: #55 Killgore Trout

It's very intentional. See #46

Okay - that is a fair point. I have read they use Alinsky tactics.

However, I do not believe the communists have a monopoly on clenched fist designs. That link does not prove they literally lifted the clenched fist specifically from the communist party - rather, they are using general leftist images to their advantage.

My concern about the clenched fist is that it connotes both militancy and violence (not whether it has communist roots - because in fact the image is seen in many movements). It is a scary image for a mass movement, such as the Tea Party.

81 Killgore Trout  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:37:06am

re: #73 Maltboy!

See #46, idiot.

82 Charles Johnson  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:37:08am

There's our first flounce.

83 MandyManners  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:37:24am

re: #73 Maltboy!

Flouncy-McFlounce.

84 lurking faith  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:37:27am

re: #46 Killgore Trout

From the 912 faq
1. What is the symbolism of your logo?

And there we have it, in their own words; it's all true. (How unfair of you to do actual research!)

85 Killgore Trout  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:37:48am

re: #80 non obama mama

The clearly state that they are co-opting leftist symbols.

86 Conservative in Liberal Hands  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:37:50am

re: #12 Charles

Charles, what is your relationship with Pajamas Media? I was under the impression - perhaps mistakenly - that you had something to do with PJTV, etc...

87 [deleted]  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:37:58am
88 Oh no...Sand People!  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:38:05am

My interpretation of this thread is to show the ludicrousness of Glenn's walk through New York pointing out the communist propaganda of the Rockefeller building.

Am I wrong?

89 Pacificlady  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:38:23am

Sometimes a clenched fist is just a clenched fist.

90 DaddyG  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:38:37am

The fist in the air seems to be a pretty classic form of protest. The 9/12 project sponsors are imitating the techniques of those who they oppose ideologically.

The whole gang involved in the discourse is competing to see who can hit bottom faster then start digging.

91 non obama mama  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:38:42am

re: #79 Bagua

True, Hezballah comes to mind, as does the Black Panther Party, however this one is in the archetypal Communist Red color and is clearly derived from the PLP, perhaps the organizers were unaware? Makes no difference, if it was a Pro-Obama poster you would be all over it and raise no question.

It is and Inconvenient Truth.

I am not looking to defend the Tea Parties - I don't support them.

I just think that their words and deeds are reason enough to decry them, not whether or not they raised their logo from communists (especially when the logo has been in use for so many movements).

92 avanti  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:38:48am

re: #24 non obama mama

I don't see the two fists as the same.

The communist fist is pointed up with a star.

The Tea Party fist is slanted and has no star, plus has no muscular definition, as the communist fist has.

Lots of political movements have used fists as their logos - I don't see this one.

Mind you, I don't like the tea parties (after the images I saw from the 9/12 rally). But the comparison here of logos does not pan out, IMHO.

I think the point is the fist connection is at least as valid or weak as Beck's hysterical comments about Rockefeller Centers art work.

93 Racer X  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:38:52am

The stupid has come full circle.

94 [deleted]  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:38:56am
95 Pianobuff  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:38:59am

Wish I thought of this as soon as the article was posted...

FIST POST!

96 MJ  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:39:21am

re: #76 Killgore Trout

Good one.

I believe #3 was the model for Beck:

Image: table23.jpg

97 MandyManners  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:39:36am

re: #79 Bagua

True, Hezballah comes to mind, as does the Black Panther Party, however this one is in the archetypal Communist Red color and is clearly derived from the PLP, perhaps the organizers were unaware? Makes no difference, if it was a Pro-Obama poster you would be all over it and raise no question.

It is and Inconvenient Truth.

I'd forgotten about Hizb'allah. I think of the Third Reich when I think of them.

[Link: www.daylife.com...]

98 Charles Johnson  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:39:49am

re: #86 Conservative in Liberal Hands

I have not worked with PJ Media for two years.

I was one of the founders. I'm not happy to see them featuring a white supremacist.

99 Racer X  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:40:12am

re: #94 buzzsawmonkey

Since people are posting pix of folks using the clenched-fist salute, I'm sure it is only a matter of time until someone finds and links to a picture of a poster which was popular in the West Village in the 1970s, of a clenched fist rising out of a can of Crisco.

Eeeewww!

100 non obama mama  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:40:15am

re: #92 avanti

I think the point is the fist connection is at least as valid or weak as Beck's hysterical comments about Rockefeller Centers art work.

But then again, Glenn Beck had no validity when he went off on his crazy rant about Rockefeller Center.

101 badger1970  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:40:31am

re: #87 MikeySDCA

It was the trade off for getting the better of the German Aerospace engineers.

102 Oh no...Sand People!  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:40:41am

re: #90 DaddyG

The fist in the air seems to be a pretty classic form of protest. The 9/12 project sponsors are imitating the techniques of those who they oppose ideologically.

The whole gang involved in the discourse is competing to see who can hit bottom faster then start digging.

I don't like my enemy so I am going to start acting and looking just like him!

/OH WAIT!

103 MandyManners  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:40:42am

re: #87 MikeySDCA

Always steal from the best. The Commies were brilliant, especially after they got the best of Goebbels's old crew after '45.

Throughout culture, styles are recycled. Just look at women's fashions.

104 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:41:15am

re: #97 MandyManners

I'd forgotten about Hizb'allah. I think of the Third Reich when I think of them.

[Link: www.daylife.com...]

But those used extended hands, not clenched fists. It's totally different.
///SARC

105 MandyManners  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:41:20am

re: #94 buzzsawmonkey

Since people are posting pix of folks using the clenched-fist salute, I'm sure it is only a matter of time until someone finds and links to a picture of a poster which was popular in the West Village in the 1970s, of a clenched fist rising out of a can of Crisco.

Nooo ooo ooo ooo!

106 Conservative in Liberal Hands  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:41:30am

re: #98 Charles
Charles - thanks! I though there had been some discussion about it, but could not remember.

107 DaddyG  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:41:31am

re: #75 sattv4u2

Sly Stallone even made a movie about a union whose initial were F.I.S.T..

[Link: www.imdb.com...]

Beat me to it. F.I.S.T.

108 avanti  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:42:19am

re: #98 Charles

I have not worked with PJ Media for two years.

I was one of the founders. I'm not happy to see them featuring a white supremacist.

So you did not leave PJ Media, it left you.

109 jamgarr  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:42:35am

re: #66 buzzsawmonkey

But, you see, the Beck logo has three fists. This symbolizes the Trinity, and thus shows the underlying Christian base of his group.

But since they use the logo as its second iteration you have to add 2 to the 3, making 5, an unmistakable reference to the evil pentagram!

110 EaterOfFood  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:42:45am

re: #94 buzzsawmonkey

Since people are posting pix of folks using the clenched-fist salute, I'm sure it is only a matter of time until someone finds and links to a picture of a poster which was popular in the West Village in the 1970s, of a clenched fist rising out of a can of Crisco.

Pass the cranial Clorox, if you please.

111 non obama mama  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:42:47am

Which white supremacist is being featured on Pajamas Media?

112 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:43:07am

There's also a suspicious resemblance to the Black Panther logo, as exemplified on this program guide to Woodstock, featuring a talk by leftist Abbie Hoffman!

That settles it. Beck is actually a paid operative of ACORN and an Obama puppet working to bring down the right from the inside. It's Obama's fault!

/wingnut talking point from the future

113 lawhawk  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:43:43am

re: #112 iceweasel

Okay. That's funny.

114 [deleted]  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:43:43am
115 lurking faith  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:43:48am

re: #53 MajorTom

No... Some things are just a really bad idea. Comparison: How would you feel about appropriating the swastika as a sort of middle finger to the Nazis?

(Normally I would shy away from the Nazi comparison, but worldwide, the communists killed many millions, so I think it's fair.)

116 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:43:49am

re: #111 non obama mama

Which white supremacist is being featured on Pajamas Media?

RSM.

117 S'latch  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:43:51am

What a bad idea.

118 MandyManners  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:44:21am

re: #104 Kosh's Shadow

But those used extended hands, not clenched fists. It's totally different.
///SARC

The images in my mind (from stuff I've read here over the years) is that the salute Kantar uses is used by the rank and file of Hizb'allah. I don't know about Hamas' fighters or those of Fatah.

Hold on. I have a distinct memory of seeing Fatah forces using the Third Reich's salute. Very distinct.

119 figgles  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:44:33am

I enjoy LGF for not being hysterical, but this is petty. So what?

120 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:44:44am

re: #113 lawhawk

Okay. That's funny.

Hey, we can work it out!

121 non obama mama  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:45:52am

re: #116 iceweasel

RSM.

Just checked Pajamas Media. I am gobsmacked. Forget about anything else - the dude is linked with American Renaissance. That's pretty bad!

The only thing I can say is that CNN/MSNBC/Fox regularly features white nationalist Pat Buchanan on their shows. So this is not unique to Pajamas Media.

*sighs*

122 WinterCat  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:45:56am

It's a pretty ugly logo.

123 Danny  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:46:13am

Does the 9012 movement want to smash capitalism?

124 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:46:14am

re: #116 iceweasel

RSM.

I've now unsubscribed from the PJ email list, and sent them email explaining why.
Next thing, they'll be associating with lgf2.

125 Randall Gross  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:46:24am

At the tail end of his radio show this morning Glen Beck said it's not his logo, someone's paying attention...

126 Danny  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:46:39am

re: #123 Danny

Doh! 9-12...

127 debutaunt  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:46:55am

re: #7 kf

Didn't they know that the Progressive Labor Party invented the fist?

Recreate 68 also used the image of a fist.

128 Oh no...Sand People!  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:47:29am

re: #123 Danny

Does the 9012 movement want to smash capitalism?

No, but the 90210 movement was trying to smash braincells...horrible tv series in my opinion...

/sorry, couldn't help it..

129 lurking faith  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:47:35am

re: #47 Cannadian Club Akbar

Beck logo.
[Link: www.the912project.com...]

That's the overall logo.

The topic of this thread is the logo specific to Saturday's 9-12 march on DC.

130 lawhawk  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:47:51am

Well, all the good revolutionary symbols were all taken, so all that was left was this clenched fist thing. ///

131 [deleted]  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:47:59am
132 Bagua  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:48:02am

re: #119 figgles

I enjoy LGF for not being hysterical, but this is petty. So what?

So what? That rich considering it was the paranoid Beck who ranted on about the artwork at the Rockefeller center proving some insane conspiracy.

It's amazing how kneejerk these people are complaining about having this clear link pointed out, had this been an Obama or Acorn side they would be howling that this is proof of Communism/Socialism.

133 Dianna  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:48:52am

re: #87 MikeySDCA

Always steal from the best. The Commies were brilliant, especially after they got the best of Goebbels's old crew after '45.

Not really.

The image propaganda was at its best during the 20s and 30s. Even the WWII visual posters were very fine, if you like socialist realist poster art.

134 AuntAcid  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:49:02am

"The threatening clenched fist logo..."

Holy crap, Bat Man!


...so the "clenched fist" of Lady Liberty was what, not evocative enough?

135 Danny  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:49:08am

One thing's for sure, Beck sure does provide us with a lot to laugh at.

136 non obama mama  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:49:13am

re: #132 Bagua

So what? That rich considering it was the paranoid Beck who ranted on about the artwork at the Rockefeller center proving some insane conspiracy.

It's amazing how kneejerk these people are complaining about having this clear link pointed out, had this been an Obama or Acorn side they would be howling that this is proof of Communism/Socialism.

I was not cheering on Glenn Beck when he made his communist symbols show.

This is not a double standard being applied.

137 badger1970  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:50:04am

re: #128 Oh no...Sand People!

No, but the 90210 movement was trying to smash braincells...horrible tv series in my opinion...

/sorry, couldn't help it..

Oh "Leave It" alone /

138 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:50:15am

Meanwhile Geert Wilders is getting crazier.

Dutch government prosecutors have announced they will put legislator Geert Wilders on trial January 20 on charges of discrimination and inciting hatred. Wilders said he wants to put Islam on trial and that he is “considering calling on radical imams and other idiots as witnesses.


I don't like charges like those against him, as I believe in free speech, but he certainly isn't a poster boy for the cause of free speech.

139 MandyManners  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:50:17am

re: #123 Danny

Does the 9012 movement want to smash capitalism?

As I noted above, propaganda symbols and tools are content-neutral.

140 Charles Johnson  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:50:46am

Lots of screaming and denying over this one.

Lets me know I hit a target.

141 MandyManners  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:51:05am

re: #119 figgles

What's petty about it? I think it's very interesting.

142 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:51:12am

re: #140 Charles

Lots of screaming and denying over this one.

Lets me know I hit a target.

When you shoot someone in the ass, they usually make a noise.

/Just sayin'.

143 J.S.  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:51:13am

re: #125 Thanos

Yet, Beck dresses up in an East German uniform for the cover of his book? So, just who's idea was that?

144 Bagua  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:51:13am

re: #136 non obama mama

I was not cheering on Glenn Beck when he made his communist symbols show.

This is not a double standard being applied.

Right, so then you do understand why it is very valid to point out his hypocrisy in appropriating an overtly communist/subversive symbol.

145 Danny  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:51:53am

re: #132 Bagua

It's amazing how kneejerk these people are complaining about having this clear link pointed out, had this been an Obama or Acorn side they would be howling that this is proof of Communism/Socialism.

I interpret it as an attempt to piss on the commies. They're probably laughing too, but whatever.

146 J.S.  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:52:06am

make that "whose"...as opposed to who's...

147 Dianna  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:52:13am

re: #139 MandyManners

As I noted above, propaganda symbols and tools are content-neutral.

So long as they continue to evoke an emotional response - and the one those deploying them wish to evoke - propaganda symbols will be used by anyone wishing to make his point strongly.

148 avanti  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:52:45am

Both some on the left and right right actually like hearing lies that support their agenda. Here's a post from a HA tea bagger that contains a few "errors" that I'm sure will get passed around :


"Police told us they planned for security for 500,000. They had to keep calling in more security to eventually cover 2 million - without one Nazi sign."

149 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:53:03am

re: #124 Kosh's Shadow

re: #121 non obama mama

PJM is crap. Really has been for a while now. Sad. They weren't always, although I was never a fan (being left).

Left them a comment on that RSM post, which they never let through moderation. I posted it in the last thread. I'm not surprised they didn't let it though. I left lots of links to to RSM's proven racist and supremacist associations and enquired why we should think his opinion was worth anything.

I also asked why all his Freak Republic comments had been scrubbed, and provided his user name and a handy link.

150 Bagua  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:53:12am

re: #145 Danny

I interpret it as an attempt to piss on the commies. They're probably laughing too, but whatever.

Ok, so then the Obama posters during the election that were pointed out as similar to soviet (or some such) propaganda, did you interpret them as pissing on Socialism?

Change.

151 [deleted]  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:53:13am
152 MandyManners  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:53:14am

re: #140 Charles

Lots of screaming and denying over this one.

Lets me know I hit a target.

Taking flack and all that.

153 Oh no...Sand People!  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:53:23am

re: #131 buzzsawmonkey

Use Make My Logo Bigger! cream if you want that logo to get attention!

And after all the frothing and lunacy...you need "Oops I crapped my pants" for those socialist induced bowel movements.

154 non obama mama  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:53:24am

re: #144 Bagua

Right, so then you do understand why it is very valid to point out his hypocrisy in appropriating an overtly communist/subversive symbol.

I just don't see the image as necessarily communist. I see it rather as a symbol of militancy that has been used for both 'left' and 'right' movements. As I said, scarily enough, this image is not just one supporting militancy: it tacitly brings to mind violence.

Just not good as a mass symbol, regardless of whether it is communist in nature.

155 nonic  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:53:26am

Bill Clinton clenched fist
Image: codex_175.jpg

Hillary Clinton clenched fists
Image: 2elazoz.jpg

John Kerry clenched fist
Image: kerry_communist_salute-vi.gif

Howard Dean clenched fist
Image: dean_patriot.jpg

Iranian demonstrator raises clenched fist of protest
[Link: www.richardsilverstein.com...]

Woman power clenched fist emblem
[Link: commons.wikimedia.org...]

Handicapped advocacy clenched fist logo
Image: access_symbool-fist.jpg

Strike clenched fist symbol combined with peace symbol
[Link: www.docspopuli.org...]

No More Miss America clenched fist button
[Link: uic.edu...]

Harvey Oswald clenched fist
Image: oswald2.gif

Ralph Cramden clenched fist
Image: honeymooners-bus.jpg

Ronald Reagan clenced fist
[Link: images.snapfish.com...]

Senor Wences clenched fist
Image: Wences03.jpg

156 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:53:44am

re: #143 J.S.

Yet, Beck dresses up in an East German uniform for the cover of his book? So, just who's idea was that?

This calls for the National Anthem of East Germany (slogan "Better government through intimidation"), well, the version from the movie Top Secret.

157 S'latch  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:54:31am

re: #98 Charles

. . . I'm not happy to see them featuring a white supremacist.

I don't like the sound of that either, but I have not seen that feature. However, I do like Glenn Reynold's blog, Instapundit, which is associated with PJ Media. I have a lot of respect for Glenn Reynolds and I do not believe he is remotely racist. I wonder if he will comment about that feature's author.

158 Charles Johnson  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:54:32am

re: #155 nonic

What exactly are those photos of people with clenched fists supposed to show?

You do understand the difference between a photo of a person and a deliberately chosen graphic logo, right?

159 Danny  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:54:35am

re: #150 Bagua

Ok, so then the Obama posters during the election that were pointed out as similar to soviet (or some such) propaganda, did you interpret them as pissing on Socialism?

Change.

Haven't seen 'em. Show me one and I'll try to answer.

160 danrudy  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:55:06am

Interesting video on the power and danger of branding, especially in politics. It is just as relevant with regard to the Obama's administrations attempt to brand everything as it is for the symbol referenced in the thread header. I posted this in another thread but it seems more appropriate here.

The power and danger of branding

161 MandyManners  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:55:45am

re: #147 Dianna

So long as they continue to evoke an emotional response - and the one those deploying them wish to evoke - propaganda symbols will be used by anyone wishing to make his point strongly.

That is the point of all tools of propagana, to provoke emotional responses. The short-hand way is to use buzz words or symbols. It's the same as a product's brand.

Maybe I should've focussed on advertising instead of editorial journalism in college.

162 Dianna  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:56:26am

re: #161 MandyManners

That is the point of all tools of propagana, to provoke emotional responses. The short-hand way is to use buzz words or symbols. It's the same as a product's brand.

Maybe I should've focussed on advertising instead of editorial journalism in college.

You'd probably be better paid and having more fun.

163 Dianna  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:56:45am

Print run's done.

164 NukeAtomrod  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:56:57am

Really. Imagery of a fist. Wow. So what?

Hey. I'm surprised to be saying this, but Glenn Beck did some great work recently when he brought attention to those ACORN videos. I don't know why he was the only cable news host that wanted to break that story, but I'm glad he did it. The creators of that video did the same undercover investigation in two other cities and got similar advice on how to get a mortgage to open a brothel employing underage girls. It's amazing how comfortable most of the ACORN employees seemed to be while teaching the "pimp and prostitute" how to cheat on their taxes and set up phony companies to disguise their illegal activities.

Wasn't President Obama ACORN's attorney at one point? And didn't he want them to work on the Census?

165 non obama mama  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:57:33am

re: #157 Lawrence Schmerel

I don't like the sound of that either, but I have not seen that feature. However, I do like Glenn Reynold's blog, Instapundit, which is associated with PJ Media. I have a lot of respect for Glenn Reynolds and I do not believe he is remotely racist. I wonder if he will comment about that feature's author.

I agree on Reynolds. I also like Phyllis Chesler and Claudia Rosett and do not believe them to be racist.

I doubt those people were in on the editorial decision to allow the R.S. McCain posting.

166 Ojoe  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:57:42am

Well anyone who is pissy likes the symbol of the clenched fist & the color red is a fighting color so I would say this might just be a case of parallelism, not of "lifted from".

167 lawhawk  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:57:49am

Meanwhile, President Obama has announced on Wall Street a short time ago that more bailouts should not be expected.

That's great news - albeit a little too late for the billions in bailouts to the automakers that only staved off bankruptcy for a few months and which will never be seen again.

We need more fiscally responsible moves like this, and less of the protectionist crap he was pushing over the weekend.

168 Phocid  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:58:01am

Because in the last 8 years I was waiting in vain for the liberals to denounce and expose the lunatics on the left who infected their anti-war rallies with hateful imagery, (they never did) I applaud Charles' courage in exposing the loonies at the tea parties. But I wonder if we're going a bit overboard here, parsing every image. There are important issues at stake and the Obama Democrats are pushing for massive government debt, intervention and control, which if not 'communist' or 'fascist' per se, are very frightening and could lead to a train wreck of unintended consequences. A grass roots movement has risen to counter this orwellian tendency and maybe we don't have to spend ALL our energy picking it apart. I wouldn't want to miss the forest for the trees.

169 AuntAcid  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:58:06am

re: #164 NukeAtomrod

shhh...

170 MandyManners  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:58:08am

re: #162 Dianna

You'd probably be better paid and having more fun.

Lotsa' fun! I loved the graduate seminars in propaganda that I took. Love 'em.

171 lurking faith  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:58:10am

re: #119 figgles

Beck hyperventilated about "Communist symbolism" at Rockefeller Center.

How is it petty to point out that an event he heavily promoted also used Communist symbolism?

172 jamgarr  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:59:13am

What we've learned:
Bottom-dwellers exist
Bottom-dwellers do bottom-dwelling things
Life goes on

173 MandyManners  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 9:59:32am

re: #164 NukeAtomrod

Really. Imagery of a fist. Wow. So what?

Hey. I'm surprised to be saying this, but Glenn Beck did some great work recently when he brought attention to those ACORN videos. I don't know why he was the only cable news host that wanted to break that story, but I'm glad he did it. The creators of that video did the same undercover investigation in two other cities and got similar advice on how to get a mortgage to open a brothel employing underage girls. It's amazing how comfortable most of the ACORN employees seemed to be while teaching the "pimp and prostitute" how to cheat on their taxes and set up phony companies to disguise their illegal activities.

Wasn't President Obama ACORN's attorney at one point? And didn't he want them to work on the Census?

Charles brought ACORN to our attention a long, long time ago.

174 [deleted]  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:00:30am
175 Oh no...Sand People!  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:00:31am

This is what really pisses me off... I want my BLUE COLOR back...

This hoohaw where the conservatives got stuck with the "RED" color is complete BS.

We should petition for Blue back. Or we could go with the third color of the flag...but then we would either be called 'surrenderists' or 'racist'...

176 sngnsgt  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:00:38am

re: #107 DaddyG

Beat me to it. F.I.S.T.

LOL! Believe it or not, my old man was an extra in this flick. He never got any face time, but he was there.

177 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:01:01am

re: #157 Lawrence Schmerel

I don't like the sound of that either, but I have not seen that feature. However, I do like Glenn Reynold's blog, Instapundit, which is associated with PJ Media. I have a lot of respect for Glenn Reynolds and I do not believe he is remotely racist. I wonder if he will comment about that feature's author.

Instapundit is also known as Instahack, btw.

He specialises in claiming to be some kind of libertarian or independent, linking loads of sketchy stuff, and commenting only either "heh, indeed" or "read the whole thing'.

This allows him to push loads of questionable stuff yet deny that he's officially endorsed it.

Just sayin'.

178 jamgarr  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:01:06am

re: #174 buzzsawmonkey

What about Beck's vacation on the Diego Riviera?


I thought that was Carmen San Diego!

179 MandyManners  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:01:26am

re: #175 Oh no...Sand People!

This is what really pisses me off... I want my BLUE COLOR back...

This hoohaw where the conservatives got stuck with the "RED" color is complete BS.

We should petition for Blue back. Or we could go with the third color of the flag...but then we would either be called 'surrenderists' or 'racist'...

Nancy Reagan embraced it and promoted it.

180 [deleted]  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:01:42am
181 Salamantis  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:01:49am

re: #59 Charles

Uh, no.

Beck logo: [Link: 912dc.org...]

Is grassfire.org on that page perhaps an homage to Ayers' Prairie Fire Manifesto?

182 Charles Johnson  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:01:51am

The FAQ from the 912dc.org website explicitly says they're using leftist symbols, folks.

But go ahead and keep denying it, if it makes you feel better.

183 J.S.  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:02:11am

re: #175 Oh no...Sand People!

(yeah, I agree...I find that whole Red State/Blue State thing incredibly confusing...like mixed metaphors...)

184 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:02:19am

re: #168 Phocid

Because in the last 8 years I was waiting in vain for the liberals to denounce and expose the lunatics on the left who infected their anti-war rallies with hateful imagery, (they never did)

False. We did. That's when we started winning elections.

185 Oh no...Sand People!  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:02:45am

re: #179 MandyManners

Nancy Reagan embraced it and promoted it.

Thanks a lot Nancy...

186 NukeAtomrod  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:03:01am

re: #169 AuntAcid

shhh...

Why? Because Glenn Beck did something good? Is it wrong to give him credit when it is due?

187 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:03:12am

OT: A little good news from our cousins across the pond: 3 Britons Sentenced to Life for Liquid Bomb Plot

188 DaddyG  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:03:32am

re: #173 MandyManners

Charles brought ACORN to our attention a long, long time ago.

The little bit of performance art that this couple have inflicted on the unsuspecting community organizers at ACORN is hilarious. I am amazed that his "Pimp" outfit didn't get laughed out of the office. Since watching their videos I am of the opinion that we shouldn't be investigating ACORN for conspiracy to defraud and racketeering as much as we should pity them for their obvious lack of recruititng and hiring acumen.

BTW- these two may be in trouble for not informing their targets in MD that they were recording the conversation.

189 DaddyG  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:04:10am

re: #176 sngnsgt

LOL! Believe it or not, my old man was an extra in this flick. He never got any face time, but he was there.

Union thug #123?

190 Danny  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:04:26am

There's no question that they knowingly and intentionally co-opted the clenched fist symbol specifically because it's a communist symbol. It's an attempt to cause the communists consternation by associating a different meaning to the symbol.

191 badger1970  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:04:54am

Red and black are power colors to draw attention to how mean and tough an organization is. Take the movies Ian McKellen's "Richard III" and Pink Floyd's "The Wall" for example.

The anti-left movement is in disarray and grasping at anything to hang on. It's kind of sad that the right has no leadership. I miss POTUS 40. *sniff*

192 Oh no...Sand People!  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:05:04am

re: #184 iceweasel

False. We did. That's when we started winning elections.

And that is where I am confused. I agree with the 'winning elections'...but the denouncing the fringe kooks? I don't remember that one.

193 Bagua  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:05:17am

re: #159 Danny

Haven't seen 'em. Show me one and I'll try to answer.

It was a big issue during the election, there were numerous examples, the Hope poster, the Progress poster, etc. and loads of blogs pointing out the similarity to socialist propaganda. Apparently you missed all of that, do your own research.

194 avanti  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:05:47am

re: #149 iceweasel

re: #121 non obama mama

PJM is crap. Really has been for a while now. Sad. They weren't always, although I was never a fan (being left).

They are all excited about a link to American Thinker and other from the Park service about the crowd size, and it's spreading to other right wing blogs.

"The truth will out. Despite mainstream media attempts to characterize turnout as in the thousands, a spokesman for the National Park Service, Dan Bana, is quoted as saying "It is a record... We believe it is the largest event held in Washington, D.C., ever."

The quote is 100% accurate, but it's about Obama's inaugural, not the 9-12 event. Apparently that's a minor point. Google the quote to see how excited the blogs are over the new "record"

195 badger1970  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:06:20am

re: #175 Oh no...Sand People!

Thank Tim Russert for that little dingy. He didn't want the red color to represent the Democrats because it might imply that his ilk were commies. *tin hat now removed*

196 Danny  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:06:58am

re: #193 Bagua

It was a big issue during the election, there were numerous examples, the Hope poster, the Progress poster, etc. and loads of blogs pointing out the similarity to socialist propaganda. Apparently you missed all of that, do your own research.

OK, now I know what you're talking about. False dichotomy. Obama wasn't trying to co-opt socialist symbology and associate it with different -ism.

197 Throbert McGee  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:07:16am

re: #179 MandyManners

Nancy Reagan embraced it and promoted it.

She's always been a closet Maoist!

198 Ayeless in Ghazi  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:07:22am

Drive by post:

We’ve been studying and applying the tactics of the left for a long time

The Right - Alinsky's no1 and in fact only fans!

I promoted this video to tfk a while back as a possible tea party 'anthem' - it's from UK far left Thatcher-era band Ther Redskins - the song is called "Bring It Down". I think it would fit the teabagging American Right of today very well (with a few changes to the video of course)

199 greygandalf  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:07:35am

Is it necessarily a bad thing to use leftist symbols against leftists?

200 DaddyG  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:08:03am

With this playing about with images and techniques from the left I wonder how much of Glenn Becks schtick is really tongue in cheek fun with both sides of the political divide in order to stay on the ratings radar?

201 [deleted]  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:08:25am
202 NukeAtomrod  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:09:06am

re: #182 Charles

The FAQ from the 912dc.org website explicitly says they're using leftist symbols, folks.

But go ahead and keep denying it, if it makes you feel better.

Yes. The co-opted the clenched fist symbol that has traditionally been used by leftist groups. It's a symbol of defiance. That's how they're using it.

So what's the problem? Does that make the Tea Party folks communists?

203 Charpete67  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:09:43am

re: #193 Bagua

It was a big issue during the election, there were numerous examples, the Hope poster, the Progress poster, etc. and loads of blogs pointing out the similarity to socialist propaganda. Apparently you missed all of that, do your own research.

so...both sides were either wrong for over reacting or wrong for using those graphics...they're both hypocrites...welcome to the human race.

204 DawnofTruth  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:09:46am

This is pure Glenn Beck. My father is a Beck fan and I have watched enough to know that Beck has an off kilter sense of humor. He is using this symbol on purpose. This is a poke in the eye at leftist. It seems to have worked. He is getting attention.

205 DaddyG  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:10:35am

re: #201 buzzsawmonkey

Her potato salad was reputed to be heavy on the Mao.

She suspected her cupboard was infested with rodents becuase every time she opened it she found the bottom covered in Mao-Tse Dung.

206 MandyManners  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:10:39am

re: #185 Oh no...Sand People!

Thanks a lot Nancy...

Remember "Reagan Red"?

207 lawhawk  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:11:45am

re: #202 NukeAtomrod

It does make it more difficult to claim that the symbology being used by the left is nefarious and/or proof of communist ties when you're using them yourself.

It was disgusting when the left used those symbols.
It is disgusting when the right now does.

It's disgusting when both throw out terms like Nazis and communists and equating the President with Stalin, Mao and Hitler (although the left just as surely did the same to Bush). In those instances they demean and debase the bloody history of those same totalitarian thugs who were responsible for the deaths of tens of millions of people.

208 Bagua  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:11:54am

re: #203 Charpete67

so...both sides were either wrong for over reacting or wrong for using those graphics...they're both hypocrites...welcome to the human race.

Exactly, yes people jumped all over the Obama campaign for using Socialist imagery, but the same people are defending the idiot Beck.

209 lawhawk  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:11:59am

re: #205 DaddyG

That's what Miracle Whip is for.

210 [deleted]  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:12:21am
211 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:12:50am

re: #192 Oh no...Sand People!

And that is where I am confused. I agree with the 'winning elections'...but the denouncing the fringe kooks? I don't remember that one.

Because you weren't part of the left. Dean actually did it in 2004, but from around 2002 onward there was a determined effort by the left to organise online-- this excluded the truthers, code pink, all wackos. That was what drove the initial Dean candidacy, and that's also the setup that Obama was able to tap into years later. Highly organised, highly motivated, not so much Democratic as progressive, and highly pragmatic.

The right needs to do what the left did. Regroup, restrategize, rebrand a message, and most of all, create the kind of activism online and off that the left did.

212 MandyManners  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:12:53am

re: #208 Bagua

Exactly, yes people jumped all over the Obama campaign for using Socialist imagery, but the same people are defending the idiot Beck.

I'm not.

213 nonic  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:13:00am

re: #158 Charles

You do understand the difference between a photo of a person and a deliberately chosen graphic logo, right?

Certainly. As the women's power, handicapped advocacy, union and strike symbols, Iranian demonstrator, and others show, the clenched fist is a common symbol for resistance. Just as the open hand would be for peace and welcoming. Obama used the "clenched fist" imagery in talking about resistance to peaceful gestures.

There's no argument here -- just more examples.

What exactly are those photos of people with clenched fists supposed to show?

A little levity (hopefully even wit, with the Reagan image of a "fist" "clenched" around a wine glass) to keep the spirits up and enjoy the day.

(Plus, I'm a big Senor Wences fan. Which is not "racist" since he was Spanish.)

214 Rancher  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:13:40am

re: #200 DaddyG

With this playing about with images and techniques from the left I wonder how much of Glenn Becks schtick is really tongue in cheek fun with both sides of the political divide in order to stay on the ratings radar?

I've heard from people who say they actually know Michael Savage that his rants are mostly shtick and that he doesn't really believe all or even most of what he says. I suspect Beck of some of the same, he is more an entertainer than a serious political commentator.

215 Charles Johnson  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:13:41am

re: #210 Elcid

I have no idea why you posted that, but you're not going to get a chance to post it again.

216 Racer X  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:13:46am

Somebody remind me -

What is our trade deficit?
National Debt?
Budget deficit?
Unemployment?
Inflation rate?

Goddammit, I didn't sign up for this kind of Change!

217 Bagua  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:13:53am

re: #196 Danny

OK, now I know what you're talking about. False dichotomy. Obama wasn't trying to co-opt socialist symbology and associate it with different -ism.

Great, so now you remember, but then you use weasel words to show how when the Obama side did it it was bad, but when the wingnuts do it it is good.

Dichotomy.

218 badger1970  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:14:04am

re: #213 nonic

"soright?, "Soright."

219 sngnsgt  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:14:06am

re: #189 DaddyG

Union thug #123?

LOL! That's about it. (They we're hiring AF "thugs" from Bolling AFB)

220 Oh no...Sand People!  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:14:24am

re: #206 MandyManners

Remember "Reagan Red"?

Well, not if it interrupted my Transformers when I got out of elementary school... but the Chicago Cubs games interrupted all the time with that Harry Carey (sic) "HOLY COWW!" guy... hence my animus to baseball and especially the Chicago Cubs...

I just remember, I think, President Bush Sr. and Dukhakis were going at it...weren't we, conservatives, blue at that time?

221 Danny  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:14:41am

re: #217 Bagua

Great, so now you remember, but then you use weasel words to show how when the Obama side did it it was bad, but when the wingnuts do it it is good.

Dichotomy.

Untrue. I don't believe Obama "did it."

222 Salamantis  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:14:41am

re: #199 greygandalf

Is it necessarily a bad thing to use leftist symbols against leftists?

According to Michel De Certeau (The Practice of Everyday Life, 1984), the appropriation of the symbols of institutions in order to semiotically imbue them with meanings that subvert their original intent is called 'poaching.'

/See the "Mickey Rat' campaign against Disney Corporation.

223 Charles Johnson  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:14:53am

Amazing. The same people who scrutinized every logo used by Barack Obama for commie symbolism are now saying, "So what?"

I shouldn't be surprised by this any more, I guess.

224 Bagua  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:14:56am

re: #212 MandyManners

I'm not.

I should have written "[some] of the same people."

225 Charpete67  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:15:26am

re: #208 Bagua

Exactly, yes people jumped all over the Obama campaign for using Socialist imagery, but the same people are defending the idiot Beck.

ok...I just don't see it as a big deal.

226 Ringo the Gringo  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:15:29am
We’ve been studying and applying the tactics of the left for a long time, and although we despise their bad ideas, they have us beat when it comes to symbolism, activism and dominating the public debate. We can learn from them and co-opt their symbols, some of their messages and even their tactics

.

This is the worst possible tactic imaginable. One of the main reason that I've spent the past 5 years photographing the bad behavior at Leftwing demonstrations was to demonstrate to conservatives and centrists as how not to behave.

Had hundreds of thousand of normal Americans marched on Washington waving American flags and holding signs respectfully objecting to the President's agenda the effect would have a thousand times more profound, and the President's supporters would have been left with no images with which to paint conservatives as nutjobs.

I thought this would have been fairly obvious, but I guess I was wrong.

227 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:15:29am

re: #215 Charles

I have no idea why you posted that, but you're not going to get a chance to post it again.

I was wondering the same thing.
Thank you, Charles.

228 scrubjay  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:15:46am

If we can borrow Alinsky we can also borrow their fist.

229 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:16:11am

re: #223 Charles

Amazing. The same people who scrutinized every logo used by Barack Obama for commie symbolism are now saying, "So what?"

I shouldn't be surprised by this any more, I guess.

Remember, Charles, to the hyperpartisan mind, anything and everything done by "their" side is automatically OK, and anything and everything done by the "other" side is not. See, for example, those who defend the actions of the people commonly referred to as Palestinians and condemn those of the Israelis.

230 lurking faith  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:16:22am

re: #202 NukeAtomrod

Yes. The co-opted the clenched fist symbol that has traditionally been used by leftist groups. It's a symbol of defiance. That's how they're using it.

So what's the problem? Does that make the Tea Party folks communists?

It makes them hypocrites.

231 Bagua  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:16:23am

re: #221 Danny

Untrue. I don't believe Obama "did it."

No doubt, most people are unable to see their own bias.

232 WinterCat  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:16:48am

People are so wedded to their party scripts that they really refuse to acknowledge the reality of what is right in front of them. It is bad when "they" it but it is okay when "we" do it.

233 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:17:40am

re: #194 avanti

They are all excited about a link to American Thinker and other from the Park service about the crowd size, and it's spreading to other right wing blogs.

"The truth will out. Despite mainstream media attempts to characterize turnout as in the thousands, a spokesman for the National Park Service, Dan Bana, is quoted as saying "It is a record... We believe it is the largest event held in Washington, D.C., ever."

The quote is 100% accurate, but it's about Obama's inaugural, not the 9-12 event. Apparently that's a minor point. Google the quote to see how excited the blogs are over the new "record"

GatewayPundit, being an idiot of the lowest order, is running pictures of the Mall yesterday after the event, and of some street in DC after the inauguration, with the title "Clean Conservatives, Filthy Liberals" -- because so much more garbage was left behind after the inauguration.

The comments on that post are rife with allusions to 'libs' as filthy rats, vermin, and other exterminationist rhetoric. Disease carriers, less than human, etc.

234 Noam Sayin'  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:17:43am

LATimes:

Glenn Beck's '9-12' logo based on communist and socialist designs

Ever since Glenn Beck took to the Fox television airwaves recently to offer a bizarre reading of the art commissioned 70 years ago for New York's Rockefeller Center, I've been puzzled by the graphic design element of his 9-12 Project. The logo (pictured) for his affiliated groups' rally in Washington, D.C., this weekend derives from century-old communist, socialist and other left-wing designs.

Those were the motifs he railed against in his Rockefeller rant.

235 Danny  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:17:52am

re: #231 Bagua

WTF are you talking about?

236 sattv4u2  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:18:02am

re: #222 Salamantis

According to Michel De Certeau (The Practice of Everyday Life, 1984), the appropriation of the symbols of institutions in order to semiotically imbue them with meanings that subvert their original intent is called 'poaching.'

/See the "Mickey Rat' campaign against Disney Corporation.

I had poached eggs last week,,,does that count?

//

237 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:18:04am

So, in positively unrelated events, yesterday, I had one of the most absolutely cool and uplifting events that has happened in a while.

I was at the dog park with my two monsters (whom I love very very much) and I got into a conversation with an incredibly kind, thoughtful and well spoken black preacher and his son.

The discussion went from here to there about everything and anything, but it mostly came back to history and faith.

There are those of real faith and those who make a lot of noise. One of the the statements to take away from the conversation was the difference between the two and an easy way to tell.

If someone is following the G-d of Abraham and they get the message, they will say that G-d is love. They will talk about the kindness and love of the creator and the duty to emulate that.

If someone is just putting on a religious show, they will talk a lot about who they hate. It really is that simple, is your faith something about looking at the world with open and compassionate eyes, or is it about defining us and them and hating the "other?"

I asked them if they thought that Obama had a secular bias that was bad for people of faith.

The preacher was surprised I asked that. He did not think I would see it that way. I said that I do not, but that I have heard a lot of talk, and that I wanted his take. He told me, and I love this line:

"The government of America is and must be secular. It is because of that, that I get to have my own church. I'm happy to let the president do his job so that I can do mine."

They agree with my appraisal that all of this stuff going on isn't about healthcare or birth certificates at all. The conversation turned to politics. My two new friends are more than a little concerned about the notes coming out of America these days by the same old haters. They spoke to me about a certain twinge they are feeling in this country. They spoke about inevitable backlashes to a step forward, from a certain very frightened set.

We ended up speaking a lot of theology that was simply harmonious.

The conversation ended with my favorite quote from the Rebbe:

Despair is the most haughty and arrogant of human emotions. Do you really think it is possible for you to mess up so badly that you could possibly derail the plans of Heaven?

238 DaddyG  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:18:16am

re: #231 Bagua

No doubt, most people are unable to see their own bias.

O.K. so I can stand to lose a little weight. That's no reason to make fun of my spare tire. /

239 NukeAtomrod  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:18:37am

re: #230 lurking faith

It makes them hypocrites.

Explain that to me. I must be slow on the uptake.

240 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:18:38am

re: #233 iceweasel

GatewayPundit, being an idiot of the lowest order, is running pictures of the Mall yesterday after the event, and of some street in DC after the inauguration, with the title "Clean Conservatives, Filthy Liberals" -- because so much more garbage was left behind after the inauguration.

The comments on that post are rife with allusions to 'libs' as filthy rats, vermin, and other exterminationist rhetoric. Disease carriers, less than human, etc.

They aren't?

/I'm kidding.

241 J.S.  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:18:41am

re: #207 lawhawk

Why this would even have to be explained to people -- to patiently have to point out the glaring hypocrisy of appropriating the very same symbols one has previously denounced the other side for using, is beyond me...

242 nonic  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:18:48am

re: #218 badger1970

"soright?, "Soright."

I showed some Senor Wences youtube to my adult children just the other day, and they were SO breaking up over it. The guy was amazingly talented and VERY funny.

243 lurking faith  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:19:42am

re: #204 DawnofTruth
A weird sense of humor is fine in private life. But it's not productive to let that humor rip in public if you really want to promote a solid, sane political movement.

244 Bagua  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:19:48am

re: #225 Charpete67

ok...I just don't see it as a big deal.

Great, now you accept the point, but then quickly frame it as not a big deal. That is called rationalizing or spin. Get real on this. It is a big deal because the same people who made these complaints against Obama are doing it themselves, the same nut Glenn Beck who was ranting about the progressive Jew Socialist images at the Rockefeller center being evidence of subversion is himself using Socialist images.

But it's just OK when it is on side eh? This is hypocrisy.

245 theheat  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:19:57am

Actually, I think they've done a piss poor job of hijacking Shepard Fairey's work, which itself is hijacked to begin with, since he's sampled so much propaganda poster art over they years I think even he believes he invented it. A touch of irony there, since he did the iconic Obama posters.

246 DaddyG  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:20:54am

re: #237 ludwigvanquixote

"The government of America is and must be secular. It is because of that, that I get to have my own church. I'm happy to let the president do his job so that I can do mine."

Can I get an Amen!

247 DaddyG  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:21:28am

re: #240 MrSilverDragon

They aren't?

/I'm kidding.


Only the hippies. /

248 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:21:47am

re: #233 iceweasel

GatewayPundit, being an idiot of the lowest order, is running pictures of the Mall yesterday after the event, and of some street in DC after the inauguration, with the title "Clean Conservatives, Filthy Liberals" -- because so much more garbage was left behind after the inauguration.

The comments on that post are rife with allusions to 'libs' as filthy rats, vermin, and other exterminationist rhetoric. Disease carriers, less than human, etc.

Let me also add, for some reason his photos of the 'clean conservatives' feature white people. The filthy libs photos do not.

What a shock.

249 Summer Seale  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:23:23am

OT:

Meanwhile, in Aceh... (remember Aceh?)

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

250 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:23:28am

re: #246 DaddyG

Can I get an Amen!

oh yeah...

251 Bagua  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:23:54am

re: #235 Danny

WTF are you talking about?

Read my posts and #223, I realise that you don't get it, that is my point.

252 Randall Gross  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:24:10am

re: #191 badger1970

Red and black are power colors to draw attention to how mean and tough an organization is. Take the movies Ian McKellen's "Richard III" and Pink Floyd's "The Wall" for example.

The anti-left movement is in disarray and grasping at anything to hang on. It's kind of sad that the right has no leadership. I miss POTUS 40. *sniff*

Red Black and White combined were also the colors of the Nazis, and the preferred colors of most Eurofascist orgs and groups.

253 Pianobuff  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:24:15am

Here's a good reason to keep things civilized:

Election trouble brewing for House Dems in 2010

There's plenty to run on without resorting to extremes.

254 Jetpilot1101  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:24:22am

re: #237 ludwigvanquixote

"The government of America is and must be secular. It is because of that, that I get to have my own church. I'm happy to let the president do his job so that I can do mine."

If more Christians thought this way, the divisiveness of Christianity would wane. Unfortunately, there are too many Christian people and Organizations that profit from this fight. Sad but true.

255 MandyManners  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:24:25am

Gonna' go stimulate the economy. Have a great day, Lizards!

256 NukeAtomrod  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:24:45am

re: #223 Charles

Amazing. The same people who scrutinized every logo used by Barack Obama for commie symbolism are now saying, "So what?"

I shouldn't be surprised by this any more, I guess.

Well, since I'm the one that said "So, what?" I should point out that I never criticized the Obama campaign's imagery. The only time I remember even bringing it up was in a blog post I did about a dog kennel's poster that Zombie found.

257 avanti  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:25:50am

re: #233 iceweasel

I'll wait for the Park Service numbers before doing a Felix/Oscar comparison on neatness. If both crowds were near two million, the libs are Oscars, if not, it's apples/oranges.

258 Charpete67  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:25:51am

re: #244 Bagua

Great, now you accept the point, but then quickly frame it as not a big deal. That is called rationalizing or spin. Get real on this. It is a big deal because the same people who made these complaints against Obama are doing it themselves, the same nut Glenn Beck who was ranting about the progressive Jew Socialist images at the Rockefeller center being evidence of subversion is himself using Socialist images.

But it's just OK when it is on side eh? This is hypocrisy.

?...frame it?...spin it?...I can't say I see it as no big deal?...I never really thought there were images in the Obama campaign that were seekrit commie images...you need to take a breath and put a finer point on your broad brushes.

259 DawnofTruth  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:26:07am

re: #243 lurking faith

You are absolutely correct. He does more harm than good. We do not need theatrics to push for smaller government or to stop this health care bill. Facts and having a well reasoned debate would go father to advance his cause.

261 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:26:14am

re: #254 Jetpilot1101

If more Christians thought this way, the divisiveness of Christianity would wane. Unfortunately, there are too many Christian people and Organizations that profit from this fight. Sad but true.

We Jews have the same problem sometimes. Ultimately is is just part of human nature that people (from all backgrounds) will take the message for negative purposes.

262 Summer Seale  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:26:46am

Oh and On Topic:

Wouldn't this be another perfect case of what Charles dubbed "The Moronic Convergence"? =)

263 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:27:11am

re: #247 DaddyG

Only the hippies. /

Hey, I resemble that remark... oh wait.

264 Throbert McGee  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:28:09am

re: #244 Bagua

It is a big deal because the same people who made these complaints against Obama are doing it themselves, the same nut Glenn Beck who was ranting about the progressive Jew Socialist images at the Rockefeller center being evidence of subversion is himself using Socialist images.

Actually, I think you're understating it -- because the raised fist has deep associations not merely with Socialism, but with militancy, radicalism, and revolution. And Beck is supposed to be a "conservative," right?

265 Danny  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:28:11am

re: #251 Bagua

Read my posts and #223, I realise that you don't get it, that is my point.

I get it. Clearly, you don't.

266 avanti  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:28:13am

re: #248 iceweasel

Let me also add, for some reason his photos of the 'clean conservatives' feature white people. The filthy libs photos do not.

What a shock.

Be fair, there were not enough minorities at the 9-12 event to picture as either clean or filthy.

267 DaddyG  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:28:39am

re: #257 avanti

I'll wait for the Park Service numbers before doing a Felix/Oscar comparison on neatness. If both crowds were near two million, the libs are Oscars, if not, it's apples/oranges.

The last time I was in DC I made a run for a public restroom on the mall near the Korean War Memorial. The door was clogged with several boy scouts who had found a body of an older man laying on the floor of the privy and were debating about what the right course of action should be upon finding a corpse in a public restroom. They were greatly relieved when the "corpse" began to snore loudly.

268 Jetpilot1101  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:28:43am

re: #260 Charles

Conservative blogger written off after accusing colleagues of racism.

I thought they wrote you off a long time ago. I guess now it's official. Keep up the great work Charles, you are obviously having an effect.

269 greygandalf  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:28:52am

Hilter "poached" the swastika from Indian symbolism. I don't think we can claim it influenced him.

270 Kragar  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:29:06am

"We’ve been studying and applying the tactics of the left for a long time, and although we despise their bad ideas, they have us beat when it comes to symbolism, activism and dominating the public debate. We can learn from them and co-opt their symbols, some of their messages and even their tactics."

They were childish, idiotic and insulting when done by the left and I see no difference here.

271 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:29:40am

re: #250 ludwigvanquixote

oh yeah...

Hey, LVQ. ;) What's up, baby?

272 Jetpilot1101  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:29:49am

re: #268 Jetpilot1101

Boy I screwed that post up. What I meant to type was: I thought they wrote you off a long time ago, I guess now it's official. Keep up the great work Charles, you are obviously having an effect.

273 Charles Johnson  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:30:09am

re: #268 Jetpilot1101

I thought they wrote you off a long time ago. I guess now it's official. Keep up the great work Charles, you are obviously having an effect.

You left off a closing bracket from one of your HTML tags -- I fixed it but you'll have to reload to see it.

274 koedo  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:30:12am

Charles,

I wasn't aware you left PJ media.

Could you please answer these two questions if you feel inclined to?

How would you describe yourself politically now? What political organizations do you support or align with now?

Thanks.

275 avanti  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:30:18am
276 badger1970  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:30:31am

re: #267 DaddyG

That must have been an interesting discussion.

277 lurking faith  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:30:53am

re: #239 NukeAtomrod

Explain that to me. I must be slow on the uptake.

Well... Beck did a rant about what he called Communist symbolism built into Rockefeller Center, to the effect that it proved some kind of nefarious intent. Now he's been promoting an event that deliberately chose to use what it calls leftist symbolism in its official logo.

"They're evil! They're anti-American! But when we do the same thing, it's because we're patriots!"

Looks like hypocrisy to me.

278 DaddyG  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:31:46am

re: #260 Charles

Charles Johnson, who seems to hate anyone who is actually Conservative, a supporter of the second amendment, pro-life, Southern, or who dares to fight for their principles has lost his marbles!” the blogger pronounces.

Let's see I'm "Conservative, a supporter of the second amendment, pro-life, Southern, and one who dares to fight for my principles." and I feel welcome here.

The wing-nuts don't like being held accountable any more than the moonbats.

279 Summer Seale  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:33:27am

re: #260 Charles

Conservative blogger written off after accusing colleagues of racism.

I'm pretty amazed at the Conservative movement these days, honestly. Somebody can disagree and say that we actually aren't seeing concentration camps being built, and there isn't a gestapo crashing into our houses to confiscate our guns and kids for the youth camps, and that person is called nuts?

280 Ringo the Gringo  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:34:37am

re: #207 lawhawk

It's disgusting when both throw out terms like Nazis and communists and equating the President with Stalin, Mao and Hitler (although the left just as surely did the same to Bush).

The only difference is that I never once saw, at any leftwing demonstration which I attended, people using Communist symbolism in a pejorative sense. Quite the opposite, the Communist imagery at anti-war demonstrations was always used to promote Communism and Socialist Revolution.

There was never anything ironic about it.

281 jaunte  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:35:28am

re: #279 Summer

Wobbly logic precedes the Wobblies' symbols.

282 Salamantis  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:35:40am

As the GOP continues to shrink into a regional Deep South Caucasian Fundamentalist Christian party, we can expect its tolerance for racism, homophobia, and religious intolerance to grow.

283 DaddyG  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:35:44am

re: #276 badger1970

That must have been an interesting discussion.


It was. They were pretty young scouts (12-14 I estimate) and they were all trying to "man up" and do the right thing, but no one was quite brave enough to touch the body and see if it was breathing.

284 avanti  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:35:47am

re: #278 DaddyG

Let's see I'm "Conservative, a supporter of the second amendment, pro-life, Southern, and one who dares to fight for my principles." and I feel welcome here.

The wing-nuts don't like being held accountable any more than the moonbats.

I'm a left of center moderate that found LGF to be a rational blog that welcomes any intellectually honest, polite discussion.

285 SixDegrees  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:36:06am

re: #269 greygandalf

Hilter "poached" the swastika from Indian symbolism. I don't think we can claim it influenced him.

Uh - no.

286 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:36:18am

re: #278 DaddyG

Let's see I'm "Conservative, a supporter of the second amendment, pro-life, Southern, and one who dares to fight for my principles." and I feel welcome here.

The wing-nuts don't like being held accountable any more than the moonbats.

I think your principles are better than RSM's.
His "principles" might make him comfortable with a bunch of people wearing white sheets; yours would make you uncomfortable.

287 Bagua  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:36:18am

re: #265 Danny

I get it. Clearly, you don't.

What don't I get? If you agree with #223 and "get it" then I misinterpreted your point.

288 McSpiff  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:37:15am

Im downright left wing and I've always found myself to be welcome here. Mind you I do my best to respect that I'm in the minority and avoid posting anything too out of line. I also found myself increasingly agreeing with posters here so maybe its starting to rub off ;-)

289 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:37:19am

re: #260 Charles

Conservative blogger written off after accusing colleagues of racism.

I liked this quote... which I wish to deconstruct a bit...

Charles Johnson, who seems to hate anyone who is actually Conservative, a supporter of the second amendment, pro-life, Southern, or who dares to fight for their principles has lost his marbles!” the blogger pronounces

actually Conservative,

Being a nirther/deather/creationist/AGW denier/who thinks that Obama wants to kill your granny is the definition of actual conservative?

a supporter of the second amendment

Do you think that bringing guns and shouting threats to the government to political rallies is cool?

pro-life

Yeah need to throw that in there... I don't think I've ever seen his stance on this issue, but it may surprise you that it, and gay marriage are not the two most important things facing America right now.

Southern, or who dares to fight for their principles has lost his marbles!

Interesting that you think that charges of racism and ignorance were directed at Southerners... Why does it feel that Southerners are being singled out to you? Perhaps since you hold racist ignorant views, and are apparently from the South, you are perpetuating a certain stereotype...
And for the record, the Klan can bite me.

290 brennant  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:37:45am

re: #284 avanti


Yes. Let's talk about the issues, offer different points of view, and ask the important questions. Enough with the Nirthers, Deathers, yadda yadda.

291 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:38:00am

re: #271 iceweasel

Hey, LVQ. ;) What's up, baby?

Hey hey it's good to see you! sent a mail to you!

292 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:38:30am

re: #143 J.S.

Yet, Beck dresses up in an East German uniform for the cover of his book? So, just who's idea was that?

Trivia for the day--who was the only American president ever to wear a Nazi officer's uniform?

293 avanti  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:38:41am

I could become fond of Rasmussen.:) The new poll shows health care reform approval

bounce.

294 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:39:14am

My fortune cookie today says, "God will give you everything you want."

I'm not sure how I feel about that...

295 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:39:37am

re: #260 Charles

Conservative blogger written off after accusing colleagues of racism.

That place is such a sewer that I am surprised you would link to that site.

296 Bagua  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:39:44am

re: #291 ludwigvanquixote

Hey hey it's good to see you! sent a mail to you!

I wish someone would send me a femail.

/

297 DaddyG  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:39:52am

re: #282 Salamantis

As the GOP continues to shrink into a regional Deep South Caucasian Fundamentalist Christian party, we can expect its tolerance for racism, homophobia, and religious intolerance to grow.

Please keep the Deep South = racist crap to a minimum. There are a heck of a lot of social progressives who are also fiscal conservatives here in the deep South. Racism is alive and well in the North only more carefully veneered. According to some of my darker skinned friends who haid from here at least our bigots reveal their ignorance to your face so you can know who to avoid.

I credit the civil rights movement with surfacing alot of the issues in the South that Northerners don't want to admit they have.

298 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:40:04am

re: #294 MrSilverDragon

My fortune cookie today says, "God will give you everything you want."...

in bed?

299 badger1970  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:40:07am

re: #282 Salamantis

As the GOP continues to shrink into a regional Deep South Caucasian Fundamentalist Christian party, we can expect its tolerance for racism, homophobia, and religious intolerance to grow.

So what you are saying that the south went from bigoted Democrats to bigoted Republicans in 50+ years?

300 NukeAtomrod  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:40:09am

re: #277 lurking faith

Hmmm... I didn't see that rant, but I assume his point was that the people that built Rockefeller Center (Union Laborers?) added that symbolism because they supported communism.

Do you believe that Glenn Beck and the Tea Partiers are using the raised fist symbol because they also support communism?

I guess you can argue that Beck was upset about the symbols themselves and not the reasons why they were used. If that was the point of his rant, then he is hypocritical. Kind of like complaining that protesters are drawing Hitler mustaches on posters of Obama, but not being bothered by it when it was done to Bush posters.

301 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:40:52am

re: #298 Mad Al-Jaffee

in bed?

Nah, I get that on my own.

/rimshot

302 Rancher  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:40:55am
303 Salamantis  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:41:03am

re: #293 avanti

I could become fond of Rasmussen.:) The new poll shows health care reform approval

bounce.

That's not much of a bounce for a prime time nationally televized Presidential speech.

304 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:41:05am

re: #296 Bagua

I wish someone would send me a femail.

/

Well, you should know that since the hate blog suggested that we get into a D/s relationship...

///

305 Throbert McGee  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:41:22am

re: #292 SanFranciscoZionist

Trivia for the day--who was the only American president ever to wear a Nazi officer's uniform?

Wait, are we talking in public, or does role-playing "Ilsa, She-Wolf of the SS" count?

306 lurking faith  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:41:41am

re: #257 avanti

I'll wait for the Park Service numbers before doing a Felix/Oscar comparison on neatness. If both crowds were near two million, the libs are Oscars, if not, it's apples/oranges.

I thought the Park Service was prohibited from issuing attendance estimates, ever since a lawsuit or two (on the grounds that the NPS's lower number had a negative impact on fundraising).

307 MJ  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:41:55am

re: #260 Charles

Conservative blogger written off after accusing colleagues of racism.

"On Sunday, Johnson — whose blog Little Green Footballs has in recent years shifted from staunchly conservative to moderate..."

I've been here since early 2002. Some of the posters were indeed "staunchly conservative" but not so LGF. There were always a number of us who found much to criticize with the Bush Administration.

308 avanti  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:42:02am

re: #290 brennant

Yes. Let's talk about the issues, offer different points of view, and ask the important questions. Enough with the Nirthers, Deathers, yadda yadda.

I agree to a point, but those issues are potentially harmful to a strong conservative counterweight to possible liberal excesses, and that's from a leftie.

309 Kragar  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:42:13am

re: #292 SanFranciscoZionist

Trivia for the day--who was the only American president ever to wear a Nazi officer's uniform?

I'll say Reagan in some movie he did.

310 Jooly  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:42:59am

I'm with the "so whats?" The raised fist has been around for hundreds of years. The raised fist has been around for hundreds of years.

311 Summer Seale  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:43:43am

re: #300 NukeAtomrod

I think what it really shows is that Beck absolutely doesn't mind the methods of "The Revolution", Red or otherwise. He won't agree with their plans after the fact, but he wants to join in and say "Up against the wall, Pigs!" because he thinks it's fun.

312 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:44:01am

re: #305 Throbert McGee

Wait, are we talking in public, or does role-playing "Ilsa, She-Wolf of the SS" count?

In public, on the record.

313 Ringo the Gringo  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:44:14am

The new motto of the Tea Party movement should be: "Fight Stupid With Stupid!"

314 John Neverbend  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:44:24am

re: #214 Rancher

I've heard from people who say they actually know Michael Savage that his rants are mostly shtick and that he doesn't really believe all or even most of what he says. I suspect Beck of some of the same, he is more an entertainer than a serious political commentator.

I've wondered about this, particularly in the case of Michael Savage. When he isn't ranting, he sometimes discusses completely non-political topics in an interesting way, something that I've not heard from any of his competitors on the left or right. I am not personally acquainted with any of the TV or radio political "personalities", so I can only speculate as to what's really going on in inside their heads.

315 Sean  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:44:25am

I really found some of the old Soviet propaganda attractive and well drawn.

It had a good graphical quality. That may be why it's being imitated.

316 Salamantis  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:44:29am

re: #299 badger1970

So what you are saying that the south went from bigoted Democrats to bigoted Republicans in 50+ years?

I'm saying that the Dixiecrate switched parties and became the Dixierepubs. I am 54 this month and have lived in the Deep South all of my life. And while it is true that there are many racial egalitarians here, there are also many racists.

317 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:44:32am

re: #309 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

I'll say Reagan in some movie he did.

Correct! You get an imaginary cookie!

318 avanti  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:44:43am

re: #303 Salamantis

That's not much of a bounce for a prime time nationally televized Presidential speech.

I recall some predicted a big drop in polling after the speech, so I detect some spin about the size of the bump up.

319 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:44:46am

re: #292 SanFranciscoZionist

Trivia for the day--who was the only American president ever to wear a Nazi officer's uniform?

Reagan, in "Desparate Journey".

320 Rancher  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:44:49am

re: #285 SixDegrees

Hilter "poached" the swastika from Indian symbolism. I don't think we can claim it influenced him.
Uh - no.

Uh, Yes. From your link:

The use of the swastika was associated by Nazi theorists with their conjecture of Aryan cultural descent of the German people. Following the Nordicist version of the Aryan invasion theory, the Nazis claimed that the early Aryans of India, from whose Vedic tradition the swastika sprang, were the prototypical white invaders. It was also widely believed that the Indian caste system had originated as a means to avoid racial mixing
321 NukeAtomrod  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:44:52am

re: #269 greygandalf

Hilter "poached" the swastika from Indian symbolism. I don't think we can claim it influenced him.

Actually, I think he borrowed it directly from the Vikings/Norse. Because they were all Aryan and stuff. But it did originate in India.

322 Charpete67  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:44:54am

re: #312 SanFranciscoZionist

In public, on the record.

...was Pat Buchannan ever president?...//

323 sattv4u2  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:45:00am

re: #297 DaddyG

Well said. As someone who spent most of the 1st 45 years of my life in Boston and the last 11 in Atlanta I can tell you are 100% spot on.

Here, the racists are outright and open about it (and in the very very tiny minority)
Back there the racism was much more covert but much more prevalent

324 jaunte  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:45:11am
We can learn from them and co-opt their symbols, some of their messages and even their tactics.

Bad idea.

325 brennant  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:45:26am

re: #307 MJ

How is LGF "moderate"? Because Charles refuses to be in the same camp as the nuts? So to be truly conservative, you have to attend a Tea Party rally and support the birchers, nirthers, deathers, nuts, Sportos, motorheads,geeks, sluts, pinheads, dweebies, wonkers, richies...

oh wait sorry that is from Ferris Bueller's Day Off...

326 DaddyG  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:45:27am

re: #310 Jooly

I'm with the "so whats?" The raised fist has been around for hundreds of years. The raised fist has been around for hundreds of years.

Hahahahahahaha! Powa to teh kitteez!

327 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:45:35am

re: #319 MrSilverDragon

Reagan, in "Desparate Journey".

And you name the movie! Two cookies!

328 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:45:47am

re: #297 DaddyG

Please keep the Deep South = racist crap to a minimum. There are a heck of a lot of social progressives who are also fiscal conservatives here in the deep South. Racism is alive and well in the North only more carefully veneered. According to some of my darker skinned friends who haid from here at least our bigots reveal their ignorance to your face so you can know who to avoid.

I credit the civil rights movement with surfacing alot of the issues in the South that Northerners don't want to admit they have.

I think what RSM means by "southern principles" aren't the same as yours.
He probably fits this stereotype very well. But I agree we shouldn't assume his opinions are representative any longer.
(I like the Tom Lehrer song anyway)

329 wrenchwench  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:45:50am

re: #260 Charles

Conservative blogger written off after accusing colleagues of racism.

From that link:

Regardless of the veracity of the claim — now several years old — that a major Washington, DC, newspaper had a relationship with a white supremacist, the right-wing blogosphere has responded with anger.

That bolded part is what's gonna bite 'em.

330 Throbert McGee  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:45:56am

re: #310 Jooly

I'm with the "so whats?" The raised fist has been around for hundreds of years. The raised fist has been around for hundreds of years.

Okay, that got an upding just 'cause the image made me laugh.

CAT POWAH!

331 MJ  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:46:00am

re: #307 MJ

To bring back a word that doesn't get used much any longer, the site was always "anti-idiotarian" to use a word coined by Charles.

Still is.

332 Achilles Tang  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:46:02am

The original Tea Party people had a specific grievance and a specific tactic related to it. I suspect they are all turning in their graves regarding the mindless nuts from every direction that have co-opted their original term.

333 Rancher  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:46:09am

re: #314 John Neverbend

I've wondered about this, particularly in the case of Michael Savage. When he isn't ranting, he sometimes discusses completely non-political topics in an interesting way, something that I've not heard from any of his competitors on the left or right. I am not personally acquainted with any of the TV or radio political "personalities", so I can only speculate as to what's really going on in inside their heads.


Follow the money, shock sells.

334 sattv4u2  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:46:22am

re: #316 Salamantis

please see 323

335 nonic  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:47:03am

re: #317 SanFranciscoZionist

What movie was that?

336 Randall Gross  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:47:29am

Rawstory is a McClatchey paper site, they are reveling in the discord.

337 Summer Seale  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:47:34am

re: #322 Charpete67

...was Pat Buchannan ever president?...//

...of the Friends of Aryan Youth in America movement, perhaps? =)

338 SixDegrees  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:47:38am

re: #306 lurking faith

I thought the Park Service was prohibited from issuing attendance estimates, ever since a lawsuit or two (on the grounds that the NPS's lower number had a negative impact on fundraising).

Congress prevented them from issuing estimates following their release of figures for the Million Man March that didn't match expectations. The wording of the bill is ambiguous; many in the NPS assumed it applied only for a period of one year, but it's been followed ever since.

NPS put in a formal request to resume crowd estimates several months prior to Obama's election, citing the historic nature of the event, the importance of such estimates and the likelihood of a record-breaking crowd. I believe this request was approved, but it doesn't include "real time" estimation - the final figure may take some time to compile.

339 [deleted]  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:48:07am
340 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:48:45am

re: #336 Thanos

Rawstory is a McClatchey paper site, they are reveling in the discord.

I stopped perusing that shit hole after reading one too many "hitler didn't finish the job" comments.

341 Charpete67  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:48:49am

re: #332 Naso Tang

The original Tea Party people had a specific grievance and a specific tactic related to it. I suspect they are all turning in their graves regarding the mindless nuts from every direction that have co-opted their original term.

...little off topic, but I wonder how many people attended some of the code pink or anti war protests also attended the tea party rallies...people who just like to protest...

342 badger1970  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:48:53am

re: #316 Salamantis

Understood. Bigotry is not only isolated to the "Deep South" and let us not forget that the racism door swings both ways.

343 Kragar  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:48:56am

re: #335 nonic

What movie was that?

Probably Desperate Journey with Errol Flynn

344 cliffster  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:49:00am

It's would be silly to try and make something of Obama and fist, and it's silly to try and make something of the tea parties doing so. It is fear-mongering when people do stuff like that to Obama, likewise it is here.

I do think that the Obama "seal" is creepy. Whether it's there because of an enormous ego, or to encourage the very strange absolute obamaphiles, or both, it's creepy.

345 Bagua  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:49:10am

re: #339 Captain Jack

Is that goodbye?

346 wrenchwench  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:49:23am

re: #339 Captain Jack

Whiner.

347 brennant  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:49:28am

re: #345 Bagua

That's what I was thinking

348 Salamantis  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:49:53am

re: #323 sattv4u2

Well said. As someone who spent most of the 1st 45 years of my life in Boston and the last 11 in Atlanta I can tell you are 100% spot on.

Here, the racists are outright and open about it (and in the very very tiny minority)
Back there the racism was much more covert but much more prevalent

The racisms in the North and the South are different. In the South, racist whites don't care how close blacks get, as long as they don't advance too far; in the North, racist whites don't care how far blacks avance, so long as they don't get too close.

This difference explains the paradox of blacks being elected to more and higher offices in white majority districts in the North, at the same time that their cities' residential disticts are more starkly segregated than are Southern ones.

349 Leonidas Hoplite  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:50:10am

re: #341 Charpete67

...little off topic, but I wonder how many people attended some of the code pink or anti war protests also attended the tea party rallies...people who just like to protest...

Kinda like Wedding Crashers???

350 jaunte  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:50:11am

re: #339 Captain Jack

From the 912 FAQ:

We’ve been studying and applying the tactics of the left for a long time, and although we despise their bad ideas, they have us beat when it comes to symbolism, activism and dominating the public debate. We can learn from them and co-opt their symbols, some of their messages and even their tactics.


It's not a good idea, and it belongs to the orgsnizers of the 912 protests, not LGF.

351 avanti  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:50:58am

re: #306 lurking faith

I thought the Park Service was prohibited from issuing attendance estimates, ever since a lawsuit or two (on the grounds that the NPS's lower number had a negative impact on fundraising).

I think they changed it for Obama, mostly because it was obviously going to be unique in both size and historic importance. I do not know if they feel the same about what might end up being a pretty average protest march if the MSM counts are close.

352 NukeAtomrod  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:50:59am

re: #332 Naso Tang

The original Tea Party people had a specific grievance and a specific tactic related to it. I suspect they are all turning in their graves regarding the mindless nuts from every direction that have co-opted their original term.

You means protesting taxes by dumping shipments of tea into the Boston Harbor? I might buy that argument except for the fact that they put on costumes so they could blame the incident on the Indians.

353 jorline  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:51:06am

Never thought I would see the day LGF was talking about fisting.
//

354 Jooly  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:51:28am

re: #310 Jooly

I'm with the "so whats?" The raised fist has been around for hundreds of years.

Try this instead: Link

355 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:51:41am

Again late to a thread.

The raised fist is such a common leftist symbol that I just figured everyone knew it.

You can find it in Soviet, ChiCom, Nork, Euro Communist and Cuban propaganda without really trying.

Then there is the famous protest "raised fists" at the Mexico City Olympics.

356 sattv4u2  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:52:04am

OT

Bin Laden reportedly calls Obama 'powerless'
[Link: www.breitbart.com...]

This from a guy that lives in a cave and has to have a goat for
companionship
warmth
food

//

357 Charpete67  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:52:05am

re: #349 Leonidas Hoplite

Kinda like Wedding Crashers???

...hey...you're against the war?...me too!...what are you doing for dinner?...//

358 lurking faith  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:52:28am

re: #260 Charles

Conservative blogger written off after accusing colleagues of racism.

I always get a good laugh when people state so positively that you used to be a staunch conservative. Wow, what blog was I reading?

Labels: so much easier than actual thought.

359 Boondock St. Bender  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:52:35am

I have a strong feeling that when the dust settles,there are going to be alot of bloggers/polititions with egg on their faces.

360 DaddyG  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:52:37am

re: #353 jorline

Never thought I would see the day LGF was talking about fisting.
//


I wondered how many posts before we saw that joke. You are brave yet unrestrained by taste jorline! ;-)

361 nonic  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:53:00am

re: #343 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

Reagan fights the Klan in "Storm Warning" with a very good Ginger Rogers and sweet, adorable Doris Day. Just saw it the other day. Also "The Winning Team" with Doris, and "Knute Rockne" wherein Reagan gets the Gipper tag. :-)

362 SixDegrees  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:53:19am

re: #320 Rancher

My bad - the same symbol has been independently constructed all over the world, including North America, where it pops up in Indian artwork on a regular basis. I assumed this was what was referred to as "Indian" in the OP.

My elementary school, constructed sometime in the 1920s, had a swastika moasiced into the tile floor entryway covered by a semi-permanently installed doormat. There were photos of it, however, so this used to come up a lot. There's no link between the North American native use of the symbol and the Nazis.

363 greygandalf  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:53:30am

re: #348 Salamantis

The racisms in the North and the South are different. In the South, racist whites don't care how close blacks get, as long as they don't advance too far; in the North, racist whites don't care how far blacks avance, so long as they don't get too close.

This difference explains the paradox of blacks being elected to more and higher offices in white majority districts in the North, at the same time that their cities' residential disticts are more starkly segregated than are Southern ones.

Wow, you make it sound like America is filled to the brim with racists.

364 Bagua  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:53:42am

re: #339 Captain Jack

LGF was more interesting when it was exposing things I did not hear about everywhere else.

In other words: When LGF exposed the hypocrisy and lunacy on the Left you were fascinated, that that LGF is also exposing the hypocrisy and lunacy on the Right, you are bored and not interested.

365 NukeAtomrod  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:53:42am

re: #342 badger1970

Understood. Bigotry is not only isolated to the "Deep South" and let us not forget that the racism door swings both ways.

Not according to Al Sharpton or Jessie Jackson...

On the other hand, those two are openly racist.

366 Ringo the Gringo  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:53:52am

re: #353 jorline

Too crude for my taste.

367 Salamantis  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:54:02am

If present trends continue, the Dixierepubs may be the only Repubs that the GOP has left.

368 mrbaracuda  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:54:04am

Ahahaha, you guys know why the flag of the Nazis was red, right? Ahaha, America.

369 Summer Seale  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:54:15am

re: #353 jorline

Never thought I would see the day LGF was talking about fisting.
//

I almost had to bill you for a new keyboard. =)

370 Cato the Elder  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:54:22am

OT.

I was called for jury duty today. Together with my medical service dog. Cleared that over a month ago with the jury commissioner, who gave me the date herself.

Today I get there and am turned away because of the dog, because I didn't have a "letter of certification" from my doctor stating what my medical problem is. This, be it noted, is explicitly not required by the ADA, a Federal law that trumps local and state regulations.

Nonetheless, I offered to go home (I'm five minutes from the courthouse) and get the letter as a courtesy. No. Well, then, was I excused? Yes, for today, but I would be resummoned (and expected to bring the letter next time). OK. Can I get the fifteen bucks per diem expenses that all jurors get? No - because I didn't serve. Well, technically, I showed up and you're sending me home after making me cool my heels for two hours. Tell you what. Can you just kick out eight bucks for my parking costs? [Jury commissioner herself I'm talking to. She calls court commissioner. Court commissioner tells jury commissioner to tell me to get lost.] Nope. No eight bucks for Cato, nor his little dog, neither.

So I've spent the day so far contacting both local papers and every elected official from city councilwoman (who goes to my church) up to state senators and representatives, congressman, both US senators, and the Justice Department.

This city is going to rue the day.

And my city councilwoman felt so bad about it she had her assistant call me for my address so she can send me fifteen bucks. I said I didn't want her money, I wanted the court's. But she's sending it anyway.

Your justice system in action. Someone who wants to serve but is a little bit different - go home! We'd rather just have the idiots who were too stupid to come up with a good excuse.

Sound of jaws dropping in government offices from here to Washington. No one could believe this story.

371 Bagua  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:54:26am

re: #364 Bagua

thatnow that

372 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:54:37am

re: #342 badger1970

Understood. Bigotry is not only isolated to the "Deep South" and let us not forget that the racism door swings both ways.

Yes; IIRC, Massachusetts was the first state to require blacks to have their own section of trains - and to stay there.

In this case, a Randy Newman song - and remember, Randy Newman uses sarcasm

373 avanti  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:54:43am

re: #356 sattv4u2

OT

Bin Laden reportedly calls Obama 'powerless'
[Link: www.breitbart.com...]

This from a guy that lives in a cave and has to have a goat for
companionship
warmth
food

//

Yep, he accused him of being "Bush Like"

"When Obama became president and retained many of the Bush administration's military leaders, such as Defense Secretary Robert Gates, "reasonable people knew that Obama is a powerless man who will not be able to end the war as he promised," bin Laden said. "

374 Boondock St. Bender  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:54:46am

re: #360 DaddyG

damn i'm ashamed i didn't think of it first...long hours at work depleting snark reserves...

375 d_b  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:55:24am

So, in the movie Dances With Wolves, "Stands With a Fist" was a communist?!?

376 Throbert McGee  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:55:44am

re: #360 DaddyG

I wondered how many posts before we saw that joke. You are brave yet unrestrained by taste jorline! ;-)

Actually, Buzzsawmonkey ventured into that territory WAY upthread -- do a page search for "Crisco."

377 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:56:01am

re: #356 sattv4u2

OT

Bin Laden reportedly calls Obama 'powerless'
[Link: www.breitbart.com...]

This from a guy that lives in a cave and has to have a goat for
companionship
warmth
food

//

The latest from an Osama impersonator, you mean.
I think the real Osama is powerless to stop worms from crawling through what is left of him.

378 Charpete67  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:57:23am

re: #373 avanti

Yep, he accused him of being "Bush Like"

"When Obama became president and retained many of the Bush administration's military leaders, such as Defense Secretary Robert Gates, "reasonable people knew that Obama is a powerless man who will not be able to end the war as he promised," bin Laden said. "

even UBL can't stop bashing Bush...

379 avanti  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:57:49am

re: #377 Kosh's Shadow

The latest from an Osama impersonator, you mean.
I think the real Osama is powerless to stop worms from crawling through what is left of him.

I hear that he is dead a great deal, but no facts to support the claim. Can you educate me ?

380 jaunte  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:58:19am

re: #358 lurking faith

I always get a good laugh when people state so positively that you used to be a staunch conservative. Wow, what blog was I reading?

Labels: so much easier than actual thought.

I haven't seen any of those bloggers actually addressing what RS mcCain said in this quote:

"[T]he media now force interracial images into the public mind and a number of perfectly rational people react to these images with an altogether natural revulsion. The white person who does not mind transacting business with a black bank clerk may yet be averse to accepting the clerk as his sister-in-law, and THIS IS NOT RACISM, no matter what Madison Avenue, Hollywood and Washington tell us."


[Link: www.nypress.com...]

What argument can they make to explain that away?
It's not about the 'south' which is the smokescreen McCain is trying to hide behind.

381 J.S.  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:58:21am

re: #370 Cato the Elder

(I could recount some other hideous stories here in Canada about people with service dogs being discriminated against...including people who attempt to board buses specially designed for the handicapped, yet being turned away...I'm very glad to hear that you;re fighting this.)

382 NukeAtomrod  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:58:23am

re: #363 greygandalf

Wow, you make it sound like America is filled to the brim with racists.

Which is clearly untrue. If the country was dominated by racists, Obama wouldn't have won at all, let alone by a landslide.

383 Danny  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:58:34am

re: #370 Cato the Elder

Your justice system in action. Someone who wants to serve but is a little bit different - go home! We'd rather just have the idiots who were too stupid to come up with a good excuse.

Sound of jaws dropping in government offices from here to Washington. No one could believe this story.

You probably would have been weeded out in voir dire because you aren't malleable enough.

384 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:58:36am

re: #315 Sean

I really found some of the old Soviet propaganda attractive and well drawn.

It had a good graphical quality. That may be why it's being imitated.

They got some good people for it. The Sovs never underestimated propaganda.

385 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:58:51am

re: #375 d_b

So, in the movie Dances With Wolves, "Stands With a Fist" was a communist?!?

No. She was a hottie.

386 Ringo the Gringo  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:58:52am

re: #341 Charpete67

...little off topic, but I wonder how many people attended some of the code pink or anti war protests also attended the tea party rallies...

The Ron Paul people were very common at anti-war protests, and they are largely responsible for this whole tea-party thing as well.

Interestingly Ron Paul still polls at less than 1% in surveys regarding who the next Republican candidate should be. For all the effort of the Paulians, he's gotten nowhere in the polls.

That's about my only consolation in all this.

387 Charpete67  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:59:02am

re: #379 avanti

I hear that he is dead a great deal, but no facts to support the claim. Can you educate me ?

I don't know...but, do you think it's interesting that we never see him on video?

388 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:59:18am

re: #375 d_b

So, in the movie Dances With Wolves, "Stands With a Fist" was a communist?!?

Not in the rated xxx version. She was just very, very busy.//

389 Rancher  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:59:42am

re: #362 SixDegrees

My bad - the same symbol has been independently constructed all over the world, including North America, where it pops up in Indian artwork on a regular basis. I assumed this was what was referred to as "Indian" in the OP.

My elementary school, constructed sometime in the 1920s, had a swastika moasiced into the tile floor entryway covered by a semi-permanently installed doormat. There were photos of it, however, so this used to come up a lot. There's no link between the North American native use of the symbol and the Nazis.

My yearbook at New Mexico State was called The Swastika, it was adopted around 1910. The poster probably did mean Native American, BTW. :)

390 sattv4u2  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:00:10am

re: #367 Salamantis

If present trends continue, the Dixierepubs may be the only Repubs that the GOP has left.

I don't see the plains states and the northern mid west (the Dakotas, Nebraska, Wyoming et al) going blue

391 Charpete67  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:00:10am

re: #386 Ringo the Gringo

The Ron Paul people were very common at anti-war protests, and they are largely responsible for this whole tea-party thing as well.

Interestingly Ron Paul still polls at less than 1% in surveys regarding who the next Republican candidate should be. For all the effort of the Paulians, he's gotten nowhere in the polls.

That's about my only consolation in all this.

hadn't thought about them...would fit both and would be at the troofer rallies too.

392 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:00:21am

re: #379 avanti

I hear that he is dead a great deal, but no facts to support the claim. Can you educate me ?

I'm guessing on the basis that there have been no videos with current information in quite a while. It is much easier to fake an audio tape.
I think if Osama were alive, they'd want to prove it as much as possible.
It isn't like doing a video requires expensive and hard to move equipment; even a camera phone video would do.

Now, if they ever get Hollywood technology that lets them fake the videos of actors...

393 noshariaincanada  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:00:21am

re: #377 Kosh's Shadow

how about "Obama vs. Osama - The Fistfight" ?

394 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:00:50am

re: #363 greygandalf

Wow, you make it sound like America is filled to the brim with racists.

We got our fair share, and few extra because Americans always do everything in a big way.
/

395 sattv4u2  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:01:10am

re: #379 avanti

I hear that he is dead a great deal, but no facts to support the claim. Can you educate me ?

We don't have that kind of time!!

//

396 Boondock St. Bender  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:01:28am

re: #379 avanti

many feel that because he hasn't released a video of himself in something like six years that he's dead.you have to remember this guy had a chuck shumer-like affection for video...now nothing.(well exept vauge audio)

397 Fenway_Nation  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:01:33am

re: #356 sattv4u2

I don't get why some people think international Islamic terrorism will somehow magically come to a stop once Bin Laden's corpse is captured or killed.

As far as I'm concerned, any statements from Bin Laden is just Al Qaeda's re-make of Weekend at Bernie's

398 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:01:44am

re: #383 Danny

You probably would have been weeded out in voir dire because you aren't malleable enough.

I'm wondering how quickly my wife will be rejected when she shows up for jury duty.
She's a criminal defense lawyer and our son-in-law is a Maryland state trooper. Or maybe they'll figure the two cancel each other out.

399 DaddyG  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:02:28am

re: #370 Cato the Elder Moral of this story: Don't ask someone to set aside a day and then tick them off. They will use the remaining time to get even.

Heh.

400 SixDegrees  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:02:45am

re: #386 Ringo the Gringo

The Ron Paul people were very common at anti-war protests, and they are largely responsible for this whole tea-party thing as well.

Interestingly Ron Paul still polls at less than 1% in surveys regarding who the next Republican candidate should be. For all the effort of the Paulians, he's gotten nowhere in the polls.

That's about my only consolation in all this.

It's far too early for him to announce another run. He's laying the foundation, though, by roping together all these fringe groups and getting them hooked into his campaign infrastructure. He'll have massive mailing lists and a solid rapport with every Bircher, neo-Nazi and white supremacist in the country by the time the 2012 election cycle gets underway.

401 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:02:51am

re: #393 noshariaincanada

how about "Obama vs. Osama - The Fistfight" ?

The zombie version.

402 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:03:07am

re: #289 ludwigvanquixote

actually Conservative,

Being a nirther/deather/creationist/AGW denier/who thinks that Obama wants to kill your granny is the definition of actual conservative?

a supporter of the second amendment

Do you think that bringing guns and shouting threats to the government to political rallies is cool?

pro-life

Yeah need to throw that in there... I don't think I've ever seen his stance on this issue, but it may surprise you that it, and gay marriage are not the two most important things facing America right now.

Southern, or who dares to fight for their principles has lost his marbles!

Interesting that you think that charges of racism and ignorance were directed at Southerners... Why does it feel that Southerners are being singled out to you? Perhaps since you hold racist ignorant views, and are apparently from the South, you are perpetuating a certain stereotype...
And for the record, the Klan can bite me.

Commented over on that raw story article. In moderation though...

403 NukeAtomrod  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:03:42am

re: #367 Salamantis

If present trends continue, the Dixierepubs may be the only Repubs that the GOP has left.

Where do you expect the small government conservatives to go? Not the democratic party, certainly. Do you think they'll end up in the Tea Party Party? Or some other third party?

404 Cato the Elder  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:03:54am

re: #399 DaddyG

Moral of this story: Don't ask someone to set aside a day and then tick them off. They will use the remaining time to get even.

Heh.

Oh, boy, do you have that right. My service was to go from 8:15 this morning to this afternoon at 4:30.

I have two-and-a-half hours to go.

405 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:04:15am

re: #383 Danny

You probably would have been weeded out in voir dire because you aren't malleable enough.

I'm always weeded out in voir dire.

406 Danny  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:04:40am

re: #405 iceweasel

I'm always weeded out in voir dire.

I rest my case.

407 lurking faith  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:04:41am

re: #338 SixDegrees

I see. Thanks for the info.

408 Salamantis  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:04:42am

re: #382 NukeAtomrod

Which is clearly untrue. If the country was dominated by racists, Obama wouldn't have won at all, let alone by a landslide.

Remember that the vote was close (54% - 46%). I'm not saying that everybody voted for or against their candidate of choice due to race. Nor did I say that the US was dominated by racists. But to deny that a significant percentage of US citizens are racist is to deny reality.

409 Bronco Bama FTW  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:04:46am

re: #405 iceweasel

I'm always weeded out in voir dire.

I'm always weeded

410 Boondock St. Bender  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:04:48am

re: #389 Rancher

The swastika was used in many cultures.as a matter of fact a current animae"bleach"ichigo's (the lead character)sword(in bon kai form)has a swastika for a hilt guard.

411 sattv4u2  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:07:22am

re: #408 Salamantis

Remember that the vote was close (54% - 46%). I'm not saying that everybody voted for or against their candidate of choice due to race. Nor did I say that the US was dominated by racists. But to deny that a significant percentage of US citizens are racist is to deny reality.

I would say a significant percentage may in fact be bigots, but a small percentage are actual racists

412 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:07:41am

More OT: 'Terrorist wanted over Kenya attacks in 2002 killed in raid'

According to the report, residents of the Somali town where the attack took place said foreign soldiers in four helicopters fired from the air and hit a car, killing two people and taking two wounded men with them.

Wonder who took the shot. Hope it was our guys!

413 DaddyG  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:07:50am

re: #386 Ringo the Gringo

Interestingly Ron Paul still polls at less than 1% in surveys regarding who the next Republican candidate should be. For all the effort of the Paulians, he's gotten nowhere in the polls.

That's about my only consolation in all this.

Don't be too comforted, a senator from Illinois with the most liberal voting record in congress managed to snag a few votes in the last election.

414 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:07:53am

And BTW (because these comments are monitored by a bunch of people who think that they offer the only political salvation for our impending doom) -

The 2008 election went to the Democrats because of the Republicans.

Not because of the left's lunacy.

So the strategy "Let's get loony like the left did" won't work.

How can I say that? because the only things that harmed Obama in the runnup to election day were the stories associating him with lunacy on the left. People wanted a new administration that -

1) was not ideological
2) would confront the nation's problems
3) would be competent at managing the nation's affairs

McCain would have won had he not done the nutty "suspend my campaign" thing. Palin was seen as a bone to the right wing and post people went along. But when McCain did the suspend campaign move, the Dems completely exploited the opportunity to make Obama look calm, measured and in control. THAT made Obama suddenly seem like the moderate that he was pitching himself as and made McCain look prone to impulses.

And the voter polling shows the inflection point clearly - Obama didn't have to break a sweat crossing the finish line.

Was that honest? Did they present their candidate for what he really is?

Those are irrelevant questions. What is relevant is that the Republicans seem hell bent on co opting the loony left's tactics (now including giant puppets) and the strategy won't work.

What people want in this country is a centrist government dealing with situations on a factual basis. How does nirtherism, nazi-name-calling and bozo rage venting going to produce that?

For the time being Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and Barack Obama have job security.

415 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:08:13am

re: #411 sattv4u2

I would say a significant percentage may in fact be bigots, but a small percentage are actual racists

Define the distinction, please?

416 sattv4u2  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:08:42am

re: #413 DaddyG

Don't be too comforted, a senator from Illinois with the most liberal voting record in congress managed to snag a few votes in the last election.

But he always polled high, unlike Paul

417 Randall Gross  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:08:56am

re: #412 Creeping Eruption

More OT: 'Terrorist wanted over Kenya attacks in 2002 killed in raid'

Wonder who took the shot. Hope it was our guys!

It was us, they announced it at a conference around noon. #2 AQ Leader in Somalia was the target.

418 Salamantis  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:09:04am

re: #411 sattv4u2

I would say a significant percentage may in fact be bigots, but a small percentage are actual racists

WTF?!?

/distinction without a difference, imo.

419 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:09:12am

re: #414 karmic_inquisitor

For the time being Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and Barack Obama have job security.


Unlike just about everyone else in the country.

420 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:09:41am

re: #79 Bagua

True, Hezballah comes to mind, as does the Black Panther Party, however this one is in the archetypal Communist Red color and is clearly derived from the PLP, perhaps the organizers were unaware? Makes no difference, if it was a Pro-Obama poster you would be all over it and raise no question.

It is and Inconvenient Truth.

Very much so. It is very interesting that there are those on the right who are very willing to criticize the left yet willing to steal the left's very ideas (Alinsky) and symobols (as in this thread). It is also very disturbing that these tea parties would use the very fist that appears in far too much Communist literature, and even on the front page of the Daily Kos.

421 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:09:46am

re: #419 Kosh's Shadow

Unlike just about everyone else in the country.

Bankruptcy attorneys are doing well.

422 lawhawk  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:10:07am

re: #417 Thanos

[Link: www.longwarjournal.org...]

423 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:10:43am

re: #412 Creeping Eruption

More OT: 'Terrorist wanted over Kenya attacks in 2002 killed in raid'


Wonder who took the shot. Hope it was our guys!

Actually, I'd think there's some poetic justice if it was their own...

424 jaunte  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:10:57am

re: #415 SanFranciscoZionist

Define the distinction, please?

There's probably an active-to-passive spectrum.

425 sattv4u2  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:12:24am

re: #415 SanFranciscoZionist

Define the distinction, please?

A racist by definition means one thinks his race is genetically superior to all others.

A bigot just does not like/ trust nor want to undertand people of different races. They don't necessarily think that they are GENETICALLY better

i.e, a white bigot knows he can't run as fast Usan Bolt or jump as high as Michael Jordan,only that he doesn't like/trust them only because they are of a different race

426 sattv4u2  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:12:53am

re: #418 Salamantis

see 425 ,,, also the definition of racism and bigot

427 Fenway_Nation  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:12:54am

re: #412 Creeping Eruption

More OT: 'Terrorist wanted over Kenya attacks in 2002 killed in raid'

According to the report, residents of the Somali town where the attack took place said foreign soldiers in four helicopters fired from the air and hit a car, killing two people and taking two wounded men with them.

Wonder who took the shot. Hope it was our guys!

Me too...but I hope the two guys taken from the car were Mirandized, otherwise the attourney general is going to have a hissy-fit.

428 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:13:45am

re: #425 sattv4u2

A racist by definition means one thinks his race is genetically superior to all others.

A bigot just does not like/ trust nor want to undertand people of different races. They don't necessarily think that they are GENETICALLY better

i.e, a white bigot knows he can't run as fast Usan Bolt or jump as high as Michael Jordan,only that he doesn't like/trust them only because they are of a different race

Reminds me of an All in the Family episode, in which a KKK-like organization tries to recruit Archie, and he'll have nothing to do with them.
He might be bigoted, but he thinks other races have a right to be left alone (as long as they don't live too close.)

429 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:13:51am

re: #418 Salamantis

WTF?!?

/distinction without a difference, imo.

Well bigots can be bigoted about any of a number of things: race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, etc. Racists are bigots who fixate on race.

Is that right?

430 Bagua  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:14:01am

re: #409 Locker

I'm always weeded

Never state the obvious.

:)

431 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:14:23am

re: #427 Fenway_Nation

Me too...but I hope the two guys taken from the car were Mirandized, otherwise the attourney general is going to have a hissy-fit.

Could be kind of hard. I think they will need a spatula to gather all of the "suspects" first.

432 debutaunt  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:14:42am

re: #396 Boondock St. Bender

many feel that because he hasn't released a video of himself in something like six years that he's dead.you have to remember this guy had a chuck shumer-like affection for video...now nothing.(well exept vauge audio)

I'd sure like to see a six-year-older Osama with a much longer beard and then the left could see the man they have yammered about 'getting'.

433 Salamantis  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:15:01am

re: #425 sattv4u2

A racist by definition means one thinks his race is genetically superior to all others.

A bigot just does not like/ trust nor want to undertand people of different races. They don't necessarily think that they are GENETICALLY better

i.e, a white bigot knows he can't run as fast Usan Bolt or jump as high as Michael Jordan,only that he doesn't like/trust them only because they are of a different race

Methinks that you are confusing racist with racial supremacist.

People who discriminate on the basis of race are racist, just like people who discriminate on the basis of sex are sexist, etc.

434 doubter4444  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:15:28am

re: #348 Salamantis

The racisms in the North and the South are different. In the South, racist whites don't care how close blacks get, as long as they don't advance too far; in the North, racist whites don't care how far blacks avance, so long as they don't get too close.

This difference explains the paradox of blacks being elected to more and higher offices in white majority districts in the North, at the same time that their cities' residential disticts are more starkly segregated than are Southern ones.

That's an interesting point.
I need to think it over, but it has the ring of truth to it.

435 Racer X  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:15:30am

re: #427 Fenway_Nation

Me too...but I hope the two guys taken from the car were Mirandized, otherwise the attourney general is going to have a hissy-fit.

More from the link:

A Channel 10 analyst, identifying Nabhan as an al Qaida operative, said there was "someone systematically hunting down al Qaida men" around the world.

I'm cool with that.

436 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:15:52am

re: #429 iceweasel

Well bigots can be bigoted about any of a number of things: race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, etc. Racists are bigots who fixate on race.

Is that right?

That was always my impression, and a supremecist is someone who thinks his/her race, creed, gender, etc, is superior to others as well as being a bigot, IIRC.

437 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:16:33am

re: #435 Racer X

I'm cool with that.

So maybe Panetta didn't shut down that program after-all.

438 sattv4u2  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:16:43am

re: #429 iceweasel

very close,,, see 425

439 Racer X  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:17:32am

re: #437 Creeping Eruption

So maybe Panetta didn't shut down that program after-all.

The article says the "soldiers" were wearing French flags.

440 Cato the Elder  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:17:38am

Hmm. Just found out that Apple has released a new OS for the iPhone. Version 3.1. Installing now...

441 Fenway_Nation  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:17:50am

re: #435 Racer X

A Channel 10 analyst, identifying Nabhan as an al Qaida operative, said there was "someone systematically hunting down al Qaida men" around the world.

Cheney's death squad?

442 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:18:06am

re: #439 Racer X

The article says the "soldiers" were wearing French flags.

Obviously a false-flag operation, because they didn't run away.
/partial

443 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:18:16am

re: #439 Racer X

The article says the "soldiers" were wearing French flags.

I can sew a patch on a uniform.

444 Charpete67  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:18:20am

re: #436 Honorary Yooper

That was always my impression, and a supremecist is someone who thinks his/her race, creed, gender, etc, is superior to others as well as being a bigot, IIRC.

...and a Liberal is someone who thinks they are better than everyone else...ok...a little humor for you libs...deal with it...:)

445 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:18:20am

re: #436 Honorary Yooper

That was always my impression, and a supremecist is someone who thinks his/her race, creed, gender, etc, is superior to others as well as being a bigot, IIRC.

Sort of assumed that the assumption of supremacy went along with bigotry. But there are people with that as an explicit, articulated part of their bigotry, too.

446 sattv4u2  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:18:30am

re: #433 Salamantis

Methinks that you are confusing racist with racial supremacist.

People who discriminate on the basis of race are racist, just like people who discriminate on the basis of sex are sexist, etc.

No,,I'm not,, again from the dictionary definition

BIGOT,,, a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.

RACIST,, the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.

447 DaddyG  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:18:32am

re: #418 Salamantis

Everone's a little bit racist sometimes.

O.K. that's a humorous bit from Avenue Q - but in reality racism isn't more prevelant to one region, country or even race. The southern Poverty Law Center map shows a frightening distribution throughout the country and among a diverse set of groups. If they did an international map you would find even more scary divisions.

My earlier point wasn't that it doesn't exist, only that I hate to see Southerners all portrayed as closet Klansmen.

448 NukeAtomrod  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:18:33am

re: #408 Salamantis

Remember that the vote was close (54% - 46%). I'm not saying that everybody voted for or against their candidate of choice due to race. Nor did I say that the US was dominated by racists. But to deny that a significant percentage of US citizens are racist is to deny reality.

About 66% of the electorate is firmly partisan and will vote for their team no matter what (regardless of their racism status). 33% to Dems. 33% to the GOP. The rest of us decide the elections. The majority of the rest of us voted for Obama. So who are these racists you speak of? There's the Klan, David Duke, Jessie Jackson, Al Sharpton, Kanye West, diversity professors, probably a good portion of people in their 80's, and some kooks that didn't get the memo that judging people by the color of their skin is idiotic. Overall, not enough to sway the election by 9%.

449 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:18:48am

re: #441 Fenway_Nation

Cheney's death squad?

CIA.

No sarc

450 Ben Hur  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:19:32am

re: #412 Creeping Eruption

Extra-judicial killings are a war crime.

451 Boondock St. Bender  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:20:05am

re: #446 sattv4u2

Ahh the dictionary...it's got a word for everything...
(para-phrasing homer simpson)

452 Randall Gross  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:20:17am

It was US forces who carried out the attack, CBS news carried a short news conf on it around Noon.

Hat's off to President Obama on this, his accelerated pace of going directly after AQ leaders certainly outpaces Bush's efforts outside the warfronts.

Now if only he would start paying attention to Qods/Hamas/Hezbollah etc terror as well...

453 Racer X  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:20:30am

re: #449 Creeping Eruption

CIA.

No sarc

My money is on Mossad.

454 DaddyG  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:20:55am

re: #420 Honorary Yooper
I had a business school professor recommend Rules for Radicals as part of an organization behavior course. I couldn't identify with the book at the time and now that I have seen more of the precepts in action in the political arena I think I was naive to believe that people weren't manipulative enough to take it seriously.

455 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:21:03am

re: #453 Racer X

My money is on Mossad.

Just as long as it gets done.

456 96RoadKing  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:21:09am

re: #450 Ben Hur

Extra-judicial killings are a war crime.

Generally only applied to the losers in a war, and only when there are enough witnesses left over to tell the tale.

457 Racer X  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:21:22am

re: #452 Thanos

It was US forces who carried out the attack, CBS news carried a short news conf on it around Noon.

Hat's off to President Obama on this, his accelerated pace of going directly after AQ leaders certainly outpaces Bush's efforts outside the warfronts.

Now if only he would start paying attention to Qods/Hamas/Hezbollah etc terror as well...

Link?

458 badger1970  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:21:30am

re: #452 Thanos

Now the cynical side of me would say this was a case of wag the dog. The correct thing was done, nice hunting.

459 Sharmuta  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:21:53am

re: #260 Charles

Conservative blogger written off after accusing colleagues of racism.

This is going to backfire, imo. Decent people will write off "conservative" bloggers who support racists.

460 Fenway_Nation  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:22:24am

re: #439 Racer X


Kind of makes sense...the French have a presence in the Horn of Africa in Djibouti and there's a number of former colonies that the two survivors could be sent to via rendition that would make Abu Grahib look like a Sandals resort.

461 Randall Gross  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:22:27am

re: #457 Racer X

[Link: abcnews.go.com...]

462 gregb  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:22:35am

I'm a pure capitalist at heart, but I like early-industrial communist propaganda art work.

I did a search on google and the first page was all Glenn Beck results, WTF over?

463 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:23:44am

re: #459 Sharmuta

This is going to backfire, imo. Decent people will write off "conservative" bloggers who support racists.

There are no decent people at Rawsewage.

464 Danny  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:24:05am

re: #440 Cato the Elder

Hmm. Just found out that Apple has released a new OS for the iPhone. Version 3.1. Installing now...

See if you notice any speed increase after you update. I could swear mine seems to run a little faster/smoother, eg when rotating a browser page.

465 gregb  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:24:15am

p.s. C&C Red Alert 3:

Image: RA3SovietWallpaper_10x7.jpg

466 Ben G. Hazi  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:24:22am

re: #459 Sharmuta

This is going to backfire, imo. Decent people will write off "conservative" bloggers who support racists.

I certainly hope so...that kind of shit is absolutely repugnant.

467 sattv4u2  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:24:53am

re: #451 Boondock St. Bender

Ahh the dictionary...it's got a word for everything...
(para-phrasing homer simpson)

LOL

Seriously though,I think the word racist is thrown around a little too freely. I KNOW there are people in this (and other) countries that believe that their "race", whichever it is, IS genetically superior than any other. As someone that has lived many places and traveled extensively I just don't think it's as prevalent as the word is used

468 sattv4u2  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:25:22am

re: #451 Boondock St. Bender

re: #467 sattv4u2


BIGOT ,,, yes


RACIST ,,, no

469 Sharmuta  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:25:30am

re: #466 talon_262

I certainly hope so...that kind of shit is absolutely repugnant.

I'd like to think most people are repulsed by bigots, therefore most people would side with LGF.

470 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:25:52am

re: #425 sattv4u2

A racist by definition means one thinks his race is genetically superior to all others.

A bigot just does not like/ trust nor want to undertand people of different races. They don't necessarily think that they are GENETICALLY better

i.e, a white bigot knows he can't run as fast Usan Bolt or jump as high as Michael Jordan,only that he doesn't like/trust them only because they are of a different race

I'm not sure I buy the specificity of your definition of racism. Racists have, in fact, stressed various physical and mental abilities of 'inferior' races as proof of their inferiority. And plenty have simply made white skin a virtue that overrides any other.

471 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:25:55am
472 Randall Gross  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:25:57am

re: #458 badger1970

Now the cynical side of me would say this was a case of wag the dog. The correct thing was done, nice hunting.

Why would you even go there in cynicism if the facts belie that? The pace of strikes in Waziristan and other spots have definitely increased throughout the first six months of Obama's admin. If you can point me to a similar period where Bush was hitting terrorists outside of warzones, I'd appreciate a link.

473 Randall Gross  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:26:40am

re: #471 Honorary Yooper

Definately threadworthy, IMHO.

It's a left wing paper trying to egg things on.

474 Boondock St. Bender  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:26:43am

gotta go pick up the lil'guys...see you guys later!

475 Guanxi88  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:26:53am

re: #472 Thanos

Why would you even go there in cynicism if the facts belie that? The pace of strikes in Waziristan and other spots have definitely increased throughout the first six months of Obama's admin. If you can point me to a similar period where Bush was hitting terrorists outside of warzones, I'd appreciate a link.

Nixon, China, and all that jazz.

476 harpsicon  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:27:00am

I'm pretty sure the original Charlie's logo of the three women with weapons facing outwards was a complete rip-off of a Black Panther image from the 70's, although I could never find the original. Of course they replaced the Afros with long flowing hair, and generally made the look a lot less threatening, but it sure seemed like a direct poach.

Good, effective, art will get stolen. Happens in music too!

477 subsailor68  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:27:13am

Afternoon all! Re the 54% - 46% results in 2008, it's interesting to note that about 63% of eligible voters actually voted. While that is a significant turnout, it's also probably a good idea to remember that Obama actually won the election by getting about 34% of the eligible vote (54% of 63%).

What percent of eligible voters voted in the 2008 presidential election?

Sure that was a significant victory over McCain, but it does indicate that Mr. Obama is not infallible, and may help to explain some of what is happening in his popularity as he moves forward. (Hey, 34% of the eligible voters haven't got any skin in the game, or loyalty to their vote - 'cause they didn't!)

Just an observation.

478 DaddyG  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:27:20am

re: #470 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm not sure I buy the specificity of your definition of racism. Racists have, in fact, stressed various physical and mental abilities of 'inferior' races as proof of their inferiority. And plenty have simply made white skin a virtue that overrides any other.

They have obviously never seen the effect of the noon-day sun on me or they would have to revise their theories on the superiority of white skin. /

479 Racer X  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:27:38am

re: #461 Thanos

[Link: abcnews.go.com...]

Nice.

I just knew it couldn't have been the French.

480 Salamantis  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:27:44am

re: #470 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm not sure I buy the specificity of your definition of racism. Racists have, in fact, stressed various physical and mental abilities of 'inferior' races as proof of their inferiority. And plenty have simply made white skin a virtue that overrides any other.

Yeah...like these people:

[Link: video.google.com...]

481 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:27:50am

re: #432 debutaunt

I'd sure like to see a six-year-older Osama with a much longer beard and then the left could see the man they have yammered about 'getting'.

Huh? Are you actually putting down 'the left' for wanting Osama caught and tried, or suggesting that because he's an older, sicker, man, he's no threat? (Assuming he's still with us, which I figure is a toss-up.)

482 sattv4u2  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:28:08am

re: #470 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm not sure I buy the specificity of your definition of racism. Racists have, in fact, stressed various physical and mental abilities of 'inferior' races as proof of their inferiority. And plenty have simply made white skin a virtue that overrides any other.

Thats exactly what I stated. One's beleif that their race is genetically superior to all others, thus the "others' are inferior physically and/or mentally

483 NukeAtomrod  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:28:17am

re: #414 karmic_inquisitor

McCain would have won had he not done the nutty "suspend my campaign" thing.

I very much doubt that. McCain's campaign delivered the message that we should vote for him because he's an unlikeable tool that's going to bore us for the next four years mumbling about Miss Congeniality. And even with all the scandals about his friends, Obama led in the polls for all but 2 weeks of the campaign.

People liked Obama. They wanted to like Obama! That's why he won. That does not indicate a large population of racists to me.

484 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:28:20am

re: #469 Sharmuta

I'd like to think most people are repulsed by bigots, therefore most people would side with LGF.

You should see the shit that they used to post in the comments section over there. It would have turned any decent human away from the left.

485 harpsicon  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:28:43am

re: #476 harpsicon

I'm pretty sure the original Charlie's logo of the three women with weapons facing outwards was a complete rip-off of a Black Panther image from the 70's, although I could never find the original. Of course they replaced the Afros with long flowing hair, and generally made the look a lot less threatening, but it sure seemed like a direct poach.

Good, effective, art will get stolen. Happens in music too!

Charlie's "Angels"...PIMF

486 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:29:07am

re: #473 Thanos

It's a left wing paper trying to egg things on.

Even so, it is interesting that Charles is giving out warning after warning and sounding the alarm on this, and instead of being listened to, he is being thrown overboard as they go full steam ahead into the iceberg.

487 coloradobuff  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:30:13am

Using Communist propaganda logos (or tactics, or anything else) to further a conservative cause just makes no sense to me. Why would they want to be connected with that? I don't care how effective it was in the past; what, they can't come up with something original? Just great.

488 subsailor68  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:30:47am

re: #486 Honorary Yooper

Hi HY!! LOL! Well, as long as Charles lands on Kate Winslet, he'll be okay!

489 Ben Hur  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:31:22am

re: #472 Thanos

Why would you even go there in cynicism if the facts belie that? The pace of strikes in Waziristan and other spots have definitely increased throughout the first six months of Obama's admin. If you can point me to a similar period where Bush was hitting terrorists outside of warzones, I'd appreciate a link.

Because they can't put them in Gitmo.

490 Charles Johnson  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:31:27am

re: #459 Sharmuta

This is going to backfire, imo. Decent people will write off "conservative" bloggers who support racists.

By the way, did you subscribe to my Twitter feed with the name 'LGFSharmie'?

Just checking to make sure this isn't someone else.

491 Sharmuta  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:31:54am

re: #490 Charles

Yes- that one is the real me.

492 Danny  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:33:09am

re: #491 Sharmuta

Is there an imposter out there?

493 Sharmuta  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:33:17am

re: #492 Danny

Yes.

494 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:34:44am

This is getting tiresome.

Here we have the right wing blogosphere trapped in a bunch of contradictions.

What contradictions?

(1) Adopting leftist tactics after condemning them as dishonest and harmful to America only a year ago;

(2) Screaming at a blogger and calling him a tyrant for kicking people off of his site. A site which is his property. Ever heard of property rights? You know, the rights you always scream about the left violating.

(3) Bantering on and on about "intellectual honesty" when the tactics of the day are straw manning, obfuscation, no true Scotsman, and just about every other fallacy one finds on the internut.

(4) 11th commandment? When SoCons stop with RINO they can whip out the 11th fucking commandment.

Big Tent my ass.

Ronald Regan and Barry Goldwater would be ashamed.

495 Danny  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:34:56am

Woah, there's at least two, actually!

496 Sharmuta  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:36:53am

re: #495 Danny

Some people really need a new hobby.

497 Salamantis  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:37:26am

Racism has become The Prejudice That Dare Not Speak Its Name.

This is less true of sexism, and even less true of homophobia.

But the tide is turning with them, too.

498 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:39:50am

re: #473 Thanos

It's a left wing paper trying to egg things on.

Disagree. Rawstory is left, yeah, and they're not always accurate, but I don't think they're trying to egg anything on. People on the left love reporting on meta-reporting-- that is, reporting on all kinds of blogging events, right and left. It isn't about egging it on (though it can be) and RS's story doesn't read that way at all to me.

499 Gus  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:40:31am

re: #260 Charles

Conservative blogger written off after accusing colleagues of racism.

I'm sticking with you Charles. I have not interest in sites likes Hot Air or Pajamas Media that have significantly jumped the shark with the latter taking on the likes Robert Stacy McCain. Last night a good number of Hot Air commentators displayed a great deal of bigotry in one thread that as far as I know have gone unchecked.

These actions by the so called conservative bloggers indicates a large shift in alliance with American Renaissance, Vdare, and other known purveyors of hate many of which had already been in alliance for nearly 8 years. This also includes other despicable groups like BNP and Vlaams Belang.

You in fact have always had the moral decency to bring these groups to light while the others stood in silence if not in passive and sometimes outright alliance. They have finally begun to show their true colors.

500 Throbert McGee  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:40:51am

re: #490 Charles

By the way, did you subscribe to my Twitter feed with the name 'LGFSharmie'?

Just checking to make sure this isn't someone else.

Why would you need to ask? Isn't she just your sockpuppet?

///

501 Guanxi88  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:41:18am

re: #500 Throbert McGee

Why would you need to ask? Isn't she just your sockpuppet?

///

Adds verisimilitude to the imposture.

502 Sharmuta  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:42:05am

re: #500 Throbert McGee

Why would you need to ask? Isn't she just your sockpuppet?

///

LOL! We are all Charles' sock puppets.

503 Guanxi88  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:42:58am

re: #502 Sharmuta

LOL! We are all Charles' sock puppets.

Yes, sock puppets, all the way down.

504 NukeAtomrod  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:43:26am

re: #487 coloradobuff

Using Communist propaganda logos (or tactics, or anything else) to further a conservative cause just makes no sense to me. Why would they want to be connected with that? I don't care how effective it was in the past; what, they can't come up with something original? Just great.

The Tea Parties are more of a Center-Right Populist movement, than an Ideologically Conservative one. These guys are opposed to authority, whether it be Government or Corporate or something else. They want Individual Liberty, but aren't champions of Free-Market Capitalism.

505 jaunte  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:43:27am

re: #447 DaddyG

Everone's a little bit racist sometimes.

O.K. that's a humorous bit from Avenue Q - but in reality racism isn't more prevelant to one region, country or even race. The southern Poverty Law Center map shows a frightening distribution throughout the country and among a diverse set of groups. If they did an international map you would find even more scary divisions.

My earlier point wasn't that it doesn't exist, only that I hate to see Southerners all portrayed as closet Klansmen.

The strawman that Robert Stacy McCain is busily constructing is that all southerners are being tarred with the racist brush. In reality he has made some extremely racist, bigoted statements. Now he's throwing up a lot of dust and trying to hide behind the rest of the South to avoid being called on his own personal bigotry.

506 Charles Johnson  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:43:39am

re: #499 Gus 802

Thank you for that. I also notice that PJ Media has done nothing to clean up the absolutely vile comments that were posted on the Stephen Green page I linked to, even though they've known about it since Saturday.

507 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:44:08am

re: #502 Sharmuta

LOL! We are all Charles' sock puppets.

Either sock puppets, or we are getting something in return for being sychophants according to a certain group of assholes. Never mind that those who accuse us of being sock puppets use multiple sock puppets here themselves.

508 Sharmuta  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:45:11am

re: #505 jaunte

The strawman that Robert Stacy McCain is busily constructing is that all southerners are being tarred with the racist brush. In reality he has made some extremely racist, bigoted statements. Now he's throwing up a lot of dust and trying to hide behind the rest of the South to avoid being called on his own personal bigotry.

So he's not only a bigot- he's a coward.

509 aboo-Hoo-Hoo  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:47:01am

re: #440 Cato the Elder

Hmm. Just found out that Apple has released a new OS for the iPhone. Version 3.1. Installing now...

You'll love it, it has the Palin app.. :p

510 Gus  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:47:17am

re: #506 Charles

Thank you for that. I also notice that PJ Media has done nothing to clean up the absolutely vile comments that were posted on the Stephen Green page I linked to, even though they've known about it since Saturday.

They probably won't clean it up for fear of offending their readership. Those comments now represent PJ Media in many ways. It is only a sign of them going deeper into the gutter. The fact remains that you are in the right on this and they are flat out wrong and in the end their newly found crazed agenda, motivated in many ways on a vendetta, will be on display for the world to see.

511 dmutka420  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:49:19am

So what? Whats the big deal? Are they secret commies now? Seems much ado about nothing.

512 Pianobuff  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:49:24am

Wouldn't surprise me if Charles gets a phone call from the news department at one or more TV stations soon. Wouldn't surprise me a bit.

513 jaunte  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:50:41am

re: #511 dmutka420

So what? Whats the big deal? Are they secret commies now? Seems much ado about nothing.

We’ve been studying and applying the tactics of the left for a long time, and although we despise their bad ideas, they have us beat when it comes to symbolism, activism and dominating the public debate. We can learn from them and co-opt their symbols, some of their messages and even their tactics.

This is the problem.

514 jaunte  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:51:25am

re: #513 jaunte

Unless you really want to build some giant puppets.

515 Guanxi88  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:51:32am

re: #511 dmutka420

So what? Whats the big deal? Are they secret commies now? Seems much ado about nothing.

Is this your quarterly posting?

516 Sharmuta  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:51:33am

re: #513 jaunte

Rules for Radicals- a terrible thing. Except when the right co-opts it, then it rocks!

517 Guanxi88  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:51:50am

re: #514 jaunte

Unless you really want to build some giant puppets.

Big Puppets are ripping us off!

518 Salamantis  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:53:03am

re: #508 Sharmuta

So he's not only a bigot- he's a coward.

He simply lacks the courage of his own racist convictions...

/

519 jaunte  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:53:43am

re: #516 Sharmuta

Puppet Envy.

520 Guanxi88  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:54:27am

re: #519 jaunte

Puppet Envy.

I'm telling ya, ma! The wheat-paste lobby controls both sides!

521 Sharmuta  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:56:51am

re: #518 Salamantis

He simply lacks the courage of his own racist convictions...

/

I don't think you need a sarc tag on that, Sal. Clearly he does lack courage to stand up for his own bigoted convictions. In a warped way- I have more "respect" for an open bigot than one who tries to obfuscate their hatred.

522 Gus  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 12:00:13pm

re: #505 jaunte

The strawman that Robert Stacy McCain is busily constructing is that all southerners are being tarred with the racist brush. In reality he has made some extremely racist, bigoted statements. Now he's throwing up a lot of dust and trying to hide behind the rest of the South to avoid being called on his own personal bigotry.

In other words "to expose Robert Stacy McCain is to insult the South." He presumes much in his biased fantastical mind. Does RS McCain speak for the South? Is this a sub-conscious admitance of an ideology of the League of the South whereupon RS McCain perceives himself as its ideological leader?

Does criticizing Nick Griffin indicate a contempt for the United Kingdom? Or closer to RS McCain's neighborhood, does calling out the fascist and racist connections of David Duke indicate a similar contempt for the South. The answer is obviously no. However, in this case, I don't think it is possible for RS McCain to see through the fog of that is his mind which is based largely upon musclehead thinking and gonzo style rhetoric.

523 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 12:00:19pm

The thing about that clenched fist that seems a bit lame is the way the thumb is positioned. First off, I can't even put my thumb like that if I try. Second, even if I could, I'm sure it would break if I ever punched someone with the thumb underneath like that. OUCH.

524 mikalm  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 12:05:10pm

I once said, "NEVER trust a political movement that uses a human hand or fist somewhere in its iconography."

525 winnd54  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 12:07:35pm

These symbols mean exactly what we want them to. Nothing more... Nothing less.

526 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 12:07:53pm

re: #520 Guanxi88

I'm telling ya, ma! The wheat-paste lobby controls both sides!

GodDAMN you, Marmite!

527 sagehen  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 12:09:21pm

Heard at my house a few months ago:

"Honey, is he allowed to do this with his elbow or is that a foul?"
"Depends... was it a Celtic did it to a Laker or a Laker did it to a Celtic?"

528 Guanxi88  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 12:10:42pm

re: #526 iceweasel

GodDAMN you, Marmite!

There are three kinds a folk in the world:

1) Vegemiters
2) Marmiters
3) Everybody else.

(Vegemiter, myself, but have used marmite in gravy)

529 scogind  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 12:11:39pm

The difference between Northern racists and Southern racists, according to my black school mates who were the majority at my school (class of 1972).

Southern racist will work and sweat all day, every day, right along side blacks as long as they don't get to high up... (i.e. become bosses/supervisors).

Northern racists don't care how high up blacks get as long as they don't have to work right along side of them.

530 mikalm  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 12:16:18pm
I once said, "NEVER trust a political movement that uses a human hand or fist somewhere in its iconography."

Ah, an upding from the Big Lizard hisself! (BTW, sorry about the snotty posts on the TMBG thread yesterday; I was in kind of a sucky mood, and took it out on the band and LGF.)

Anyway, my hand/fist remark was prompted by seeing a woman who had the Radical Feminist Venus/Fist logo tattooed on her arm. I found out later that she was the then-girlfriend of nutcase "performance artist" Steven Leyba, who is best known for having a whiskey bottle rammed up his hindquarters at a party in front of the San Francisco political elite.

531 shifty  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 12:17:16pm

Be careful Beck, all of those fists in the same place might arouse the left.

532 Peg K  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 12:26:17pm

These people seem to share a lot of what I am thinking - and not be racist, hateful whackos.

What am I missing?

533 wrenchwench  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 12:35:07pm

re: #532 Peg K

These people seem to share a lot of what I am thinking - and not be racist, hateful whackos.

What am I missing?

Possibly you are missing that Reason magazine is a Libertarian publication and would put the best face on the event that they can. I think the point here is not that everyone in the crowd were "racist, hateful whackos," but that the organizers were, and some of the crowd.

534 looking closely  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 12:41:50pm

Yawn.
I guess Howard Stern is a Marxist, too:
[Link: www.howardstern.com...]

535 code red 21  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 12:48:46pm

re: #56 MandyManners

What I would like people to think about is that old propaganda techniques can be used by any and all sides in modern debate. That does not mean that a particular side endorses the ideology of the source of that propaganda. Tools and techniques are neutral.

In business they have what are called "best practices" it's what works for them so if the clenched fist worked for the left I guess the right thought it might work for them too. I still don't like that particular choice of symbolism though.

536 SecondComing  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 1:19:48pm

re: #260 Charles

Conservative blogger written off after accusing colleagues of racism.

Charles Johnson is a conservative?

537 debutaunt  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 1:24:59pm

re: #481 SanFranciscoZionist

Huh? Are you actually putting down 'the left' for wanting Osama caught and tried, or suggesting that because he's an older, sicker, man, he's no threat? (Assuming he's still with us, which I figure is a toss-up.)

I'm not putting down anyone. I sincerely believe he was killed or died a natural death a long time ago. Don't you remember some on the left talking loudly about Osama being the target? I do.

538 [deleted]  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 1:38:36pm
539 Charles Johnson  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 1:39:26pm

Flounce away, little flounceling.

540 Pythagoras  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 1:58:08pm

re: #539 Charles

Flounce away, little flounceling.

I'm guessing from what I've read that "flounce" has to do with someone being banned or quoting a since deleted post. Google didn't help. What's the true meaning?

541 drcordell  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 2:01:48pm

re: #532 Peg K

They may not be racist, but they certainly seem stupid enough. Not a single person they talked to could articulate exactly what they were outraged about. What a joke.

542 promdate  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 2:15:15pm

Sorry I just don't agree with you on this one Charles. I am not a fan of glenn beck. I cringe when I hear him speak. I can even agree with some of what he has to say sometimes, but the way he delivers it is grating.
I count on guys like you who have a more level head and temperament for solid opinion. But to say that the fists are lifted from communist imagery/logo is a pretty big leap. I saw you mention that its the exact same red.. but its not like the commy's have a lock on the color do they? In fact i think the general feel of the logo has the red/white/blue of the good ol USA.. no?
I think you have a lot of opportunity to go after beck for many different reasons. This just makes you look petty. I know you don't like him.. but try to take the higher ground will ya?
Still a fan.

543 [deleted]  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 2:26:22pm
544 Charles Johnson  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 2:28:28pm

re: #542 promdate

Sorry I just don't agree with you on this one Charles. I am not a fan of glenn beck. I cringe when I hear him speak. I can even agree with some of what he has to say sometimes, but the way he delivers it is grating.
I count on guys like you who have a more level head and temperament for solid opinion. But to say that the fists are lifted from communist imagery/logo is a pretty big leap. I saw you mention that its the exact same red.. but its not like the commy's have a lock on the color do they? In fact i think the general feel of the logo has the red/white/blue of the good ol USA.. no?
I think you have a lot of opportunity to go after beck for many different reasons. This just makes you look petty. I know you don't like him.. but try to take the higher ground will ya?
Still a fan.

I guess you missed the fact that they ADMIT OPENLY that they're lifting leftist symbols?

It's easy to miss, staring you in the face like that.

545 TheObjectivist  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 2:30:30pm

Hello everyone, I hope you read this.

I find this anti Tea Party theme distressing. If your right to property is being taken away by degrees, when is it appropriate to respond with force? I cannot tell you for sure, but we are closer to it than we used to be.

If your response to me is "just vote in a libertarian" that is not an answer, because I do not recognize the right of the majority to take my money for purposes in which I have no say, and I cannot wait until some candidate understands this.

Is it possible that some Tea Party goers are racists, militia, radicals, etc.? Of course there are some, but, I attended a Tea Party in Ohio looking for just that, and found that the vast majority were middle and upper class taxpayers, well behaved and intelligent. There were a few "truthers" with big signs, and they were booed on several occasions.

Perhaps us Tea Partiers are just at the edge of a real rage, because govt has been increasing its grip on our throats since the Presidency of Woodrow Wilson. Obama is not the source of the problem, he is just the most recent and frightening version of it.

It really bothers me, this effort to discredit the most important attempt to regain our freedom I've seen in my lifetime. I think we would all prefer the Tea Parties to succeed, rather than the alternative.

546 Charles Johnson  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 2:48:11pm

re: #545 TheObjectivist

If you want to hang out with and lend your support to the kinds of psychos we see in the pictures I've posted, and the organizers who are connected to Birthers, Ron Paul fanatics, and the John Birch Society, knock yourself out.

I won't be joining you. I want nothing to do with these events. They're a disgrace.

547 bryantay  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 3:04:03pm

it's not even the same fists. The fist art is noticeably different on both. The fingers, thumb and wrists are very different and at different angles on both. you're really stretching on this one Charles.

548 Charles Johnson  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 3:10:53pm

re: #547 bryantay

it's not even the same fists. The fist art is noticeably different on both. The fingers, thumb and wrists are very different and at different angles on both. you're really stretching on this one Charles.

Hey, never mind that they admit in their own FAQ that they're using leftist symbols. Let's just ignore reality!

549 noshariaincanada  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 3:20:40pm

re: #548 Charles

Hey, never mind that they admit in their own FAQ that they're using leftist symbols. Let's just ignore reality!

I know they state in the FAQ that they are borrowing leftist symbology, I still agree with #547 that they are not "...taken from the logo of the Progressive Labor Party..."

These fists could have been original drawings, or they could have been pulled from some other leftist image, but they are not similar enough to the PLP symbol to pass the "throbbing GIF" test.

550 Charles Johnson  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 3:22:34pm

re: #549 noshariaincanada

I know they state in the FAQ that they are borrowing leftist symbology, I still agree with #547 that they are not "...taken from the logo of the Progressive Labor Party..."

These fists could have been original drawings, or they could have been pulled from some other leftist image, but they are not similar enough to the PLP symbol to pass the "throbbing GIF" test.

They are incredibly similar, and it's really really obvious, unless you just don't want to see it. The angles of the fingers, the style, the exact color match -- there's absolutely no doubt that they copied the communist logo.

551 jvic  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 3:29:54pm

My concern is what other Communist practices would be copied if the...non-mainstream...people behind the tea parties ever get power. Birchers and Dominionists give me a pretty good idea.

552 noshariaincanada  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 3:31:07pm

re: #550 Charles

They are incredibly similar, and it's really really obvious, unless you just don't want to see it. The angles of the fingers, the style, the exact color match -- there's absolutely no doubt that they copied the communist logo.

I disagree, Charles,

The angles on the fingers are quite different, if you pay close attention. On the 9-12 drawing the fingers are "diverging", whereas the fingers on the PLP drawing are parallel. Also, the length of the pinky finger is significantly different - much longer on the PLP drawing.

Also, the amount of "meat & muscle" in the PLP drawing is significantly greater than in the 9-12 drawing, which is much more linear and stylized.

Again, I do get the point that these are leftist images. I just don't think it is accurate that they were taken from that particular PLP drawing.

553 Charles Johnson  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 3:34:31pm

re: #552 noshariaincanada

Yep, they changed it a little bit - apparently just enough to fool some people into believing it isn't related.

554 Bryantay  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 3:34:41pm

I think rather then this being a case of "just not wanting to see it" it might be more a case of "Just WANTING to see it.

I'm usually with you C but not this time.

555 noshariaincanada  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 3:41:08pm

re: #553 Charles

Yep, they changed it a little bit - apparently just enough to fool some people into believing it isn't related.

I don't know who has been arguing that these images are not "related". Can you point to one or two comments that imply that the images are not related (as opposed to not identical?)

They obviously *are* related (indirectly) - and the FAQ at the 9-12 site confirms that - thank you for unearthing that.

All I'm saying is that they are not the same image (i.e. your statement). Others here have said the same , and they have gotten your downdings for daring to.

This is not the attitude of the Charles Johnson of Rathergate - it's a new, defensive attitude.

556 Charles Johnson  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 3:42:37pm

re: #555 noshariaincanada

All I'm saying is that they are not the same image (i.e. your statement).

You are misrepresenting what I wrote:

... taken from the logo ...

... doesn't mean they are the same image.

557 noshariaincanada  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 3:44:36pm

re: #556 Charles

"lifted from" - possibly, as in crudely copied. "taken" no. Not literally.

That is my (narrow) beef with this whole issue.

Sorry if I am misrepresenting. That was my interpretation.

558 spiderx  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 6:32:39pm

i refuse to turn on FOX news(or any cable news for that matter). How is FOX news reporting on the tea parties? Showing the extremism or is FOX in full propaganda mode?

559 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Sep 14, 2009 6:47:10pm

How suiting. A lack of originality.

560 right in canada  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 4:51:31am

"Obviously" based?

Hardly. Not even close, my friend.

561 Charles Johnson  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 9:00:06am

Even when it's right in front of them, and the organization openly says they're doing it, people still deny that this is an obvious cop from a communist symbol.

Some truly excellent denial!

562 TheObjectivist  Tue, Sep 15, 2009 9:58:00am

When I criticize Obama, a common response I get from Leftists is "Bush was just as bad". I respond that he WAS almost as bad. This always leaves the Leftist blinking at me, wondering how to respond. I think that Bush moved us towards Socialism largely through indifference, ignorance, and common bribery. This is not as bad as Obama. Obama is a True Believer, steeped in Marxist philosophy, and really trying to move us to Fascism. Now if you say that is too strong a term, what do you call a govt that...
- spends our money on whatever they want
- has NGOs and large companies lined up to receive patronage, in exchange for campaign donations

AGAIN, Obama did not start this mess, but he is profiting from it and accelerating it. He takes Statism as moral necessity, not as a greedy embarrassment, as the presidents before him have done.

Don't be a centrist. We either have individual rights, or we don't have them. One of the drawbacks of the Republicans is that a midway compromise between Socialism and real freedom is some pretty weak tea. No wonder no one is excited about the Republicans. They are on the take as well.

In the orignal Tea Party, it was a mere sales tax on ONE commodity, tea. How many fat, lazy americans would be willing to start a riot over a sales tax of this sort today? Why is there not chaos in the streets over the govt bailout? And some here are concerned about inappropriate SIGNS about Obama?

With Respect,
TO


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