Report: Recession Bottoming Out

US News • Views: 2,075

Following on the heels of a very positive report from the Federal Reserve, economists are now saying that a recovery is near: Leading indicators show recession bottoming out.

WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) — The U.S. recession is bottoming out and a recovery is near, economists for the Conference Board said Monday after reporting that the index of leading economic indicators rose 0.6% in August, the fifth straight increase.

The coincident index - designed to measure current activity — was flat in August after an upwardly revised 0.1% gain in July, the private research organization said. The increase in July was the first since September 2008 and just the second since the recession began in December 2007. Read the full report.

Five of the 10 leading indicators improved in August, and two others were unchanged. The leading indicators are designed to forecast economic activity about six to nine months ahead.

“These data add further evidence to the growing view (and our long-held belief) that the official end date of the recession is likely to be sometime in the third quarter,” wrote Michelle Girard, an economist for RBS Securities.

Jump to bottom

249 comments
1 Pianobuff  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:01:58am

Great. Congratulations Team Obama. Cancel the rest of the stimulus spending now. Let’s avoid inflation.

2 Dianna  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:02:05am

I want it to be true. But I worry.

3 Ghost of a Dopefish  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:04:39am

Too bad my industry is one of the tailing indicators, after a massive round of layoffs.

4 Spenser (with an S)  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:04:54am

Where is 3wood? I miss his analysis. I need a job and would love for this to be true, but when does the commercial real estate crisis/bailout happen? And then credit cards and then student loans?

/worried

5 Kragar  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:06:35am

I’ll believe it when I see jobs being generated again.

6 Fenway_Nation  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:06:46am

Is this still supposed to be a ‘jobless recovery’? Hard to be optimistic when you’re one of the jobless…

7 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:07:16am

I concur that it seems to be bottoming out from my view here in industry. However, IMHO, it is fragile so far, and would not take much to send it back down again. A spike in commodity prices (especially oil), massive inflation, etc, could send it back down again. Hopefully, this administration is wise enough to pilot to the recovery. It’s a long road ahead, and we’re not entirely out of the tunnel yet, but the light at the end is visible.

8 Leonidas Hoplite  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:08:09am

Yeah, sure. Just like there was nothing to worry about a year ago. I’ll wait and see.

9 [deleted]  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:08:32am
10 sattv4u2  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:08:46am

Carryover from previous thread

re: #686 Killgore Trout

I don’t think cancelling stimulus is an option. They might pull back on some of it but probably nothing significant.

Why? Why not?

I am so tired of both sides spending EVERY cent they can possibly get their hands on. If I have a project at work or at home, and it’s budgeted for $20,000 (just to use a round figure) and I can get the job done with the same results for $14,000 I would NEVER keep spending the other 6K just because I was going to anyway!!

11 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:09:20am

re: #6 Fenway_Nation

Is this still supposed to be a ‘jobless recovery’? Hard to be optimistic when you’re one of the jobless…

Bad news then. And with concerns like this, I doubt consumers will be leading a recovery.
House moves to extend unemployment benefits

But this recession has been particularly pernicious to the job market, others say.

Some 5 million people, about one-third of those on the unemployment list, have been without a job for six months or more, a record since data started being recorded in 1948, according to the research and advocacy group National Employment Law Project.

“It smashes any other figure we have ever seen. It is an unthinkable number,” said Andrew Stettner, NELP’s deputy director. He said there are currently about six jobless people for every job opening, so it’s unlikely people are purposefully living off unemployment insurance while waiting for something better to come along.
…
The jobless rate currently stands at 9.7 percent and is likely to hover above 10 percent for much of 2010. Gary Burtless, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution, said at the Finance Committee hearing that, according to Labor Department figures, 51 percent of unemployment insurance claimants exhausted their regular benefits in July, the highest rate ever.

“It is likely the exhaustion rate will continue to increase in coming months” as the unemployment rate continues to rise, he said.

Stettner predicted that Congress will likely have to continue extending jobless benefits through 2011.

12 sattv4u2  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:10:05am

re: #5 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

re: #6 Fenway_Nation

Jobs are always the last to recover from a recession. Look for the layoff trend to slow through years end and start turning in Feb or March

13 bofhell  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:10:12am

We’ve seen this cycle before, although perhaps to not this same degree in several decades. It took years to dig this hole, it will take years to dig us out, when we get out it will be a new landscape and that (IMO) Senator McCain was right when he told autoworkers in Michigan that their jobs were gone and they need to find new skills.

14 laZardo  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:10:34am

Headin’ to bed. G’night!

15 Pianobuff  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:10:39am

re: #10 sattv4u2

Carryover from previous thread

I don’t think cancelling stimulus is an option. They might pull back on some of it but probably nothing significant.

Why? Why not?

I am so tired of both sides spending EVERY cent they can possibly get their hands on. If I have a project at work or at home, and it’s budgeted for $20,000 (just to use a round figure) and I can get the job done with the same results for $14,000 I would NEVER keep spending the other 6K just because I was going to anyway!!

You can’t stop the payouts so shortly into the program. What are you thinking?

16 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:10:43am

re: #10 sattv4u2

Carryover from previous thread

I don’t think cancelling stimulus is an option. They might pull back on some of it but probably nothing significant.

Why? Why not?

I am so tired of both sides spending EVERY cent they can possibly get their hands on. If I have a project at work or at home, and it’s budgeted for $20,000 (just to use a round figure) and I can get the job done with the same results for $14,000 I would NEVER keep spending the other 6K just because I was going to anyway!!

Answer from previous thread:

The problem under your scenario is that people in the government will spend the other 6k to justify getting the same or increased budget the next year.

17 FrogMarch  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:10:49am

It will be a jobless recovery, if at all.

At least the democrats are smart enough to “jump-start” health care reform after 2013. If the taxes and fees were to start now - it would kill off any economic recovery.

18 Fenway_Nation  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:11:06am

re: #14 laZardo


G’nite/ Good morning LaZardo!

19 Danny  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:11:13am

re: #10 sattv4u2

Bottoming out is good news (if true), but recovery can still be painful. I hope the stimulus spending can be cut back as much and as soon as feasible, but I haven’t seen any economists calling for complete cutoffs yet.

20 albusteve  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:12:27am

re: #19 Danny

Bottoming out is good news (if true), but recovery can still be painful. I hope the stimulus spending can be cut back as much and as soon as feasible, but I haven’t seen any economists calling for complete cutoffs yet.

it’s not stimulus spending…it’s vote pandering and the money will be spent

21 efuseakay  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:12:45am

I thought the stimulus was supposed to prevent the economy from bottoming out…

22 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:12:56am

Does it take 1 or 3 consecutive quarters of positive economic growth for a recession to be over?

23 Kragar  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:13:07am

re: #20 albusteve

it’s not stimulus spending…it’s vote pandering and the money will be spent

look to next year as the 2010 elections kick off

24 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:14:06am

re: #21 efuseakay

I thought the stimulus was supposed to prevent the economy from bottoming out…

Minor details…

25 Killgore Trout  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:14:07am

re: #5 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I’ll believe it when I see jobs being generated again.

I think that going to be in a year or so.

26 Danny  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:14:09am

re: #20 albusteve

it’s not stimulus spending…it’s vote pandering and the money will be spent

Every dollar of it? I don’t think so.

27 Son of the Black Dog  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:14:21am

re: #10 sattv4u2

…
I am so tired of both sides spending EVERY cent they can possibly get their hands on. If I have a project at work or at home, and it’s budgeted for $20,000 (just to use a round figure) and I can get the job done with the same results for $14,000 I would NEVER keep spending the other 6K just because I was going to anyway!!

You obviously don’t work for the federal government. There is a spending orgy going on now in every federal agency to use up all available funding between now and the Sept. 30th FY end. Spend it or lose it.

28 Pianobuff  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:14:26am

re: #21 efuseakay

I thought the stimulus was supposed to prevent the economy from bottoming out…

Oh what’s with this same old soap? Next thing you’ll be saying that tired line that it was supposed to keep the unemployment rate from going above 8%.

That’s just so…so…February.

29 vxbush  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:15:03am

re: #25 Killgore Trout

I think that going to be in a year or so.

Saw CNN say that the Obama administration was predicting jobs to return in 2010. That would be starting in three months. That would jive with this report.

30 sattv4u2  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:15:06am

re: #25 Killgore Trout

I think that going to be in a year or so.

but ,, But ,, BUT The 0ne has told us he has “saved” or created millions of jobs already!

31 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:15:41am

re: #21 efuseakay

I thought the stimulus was supposed to prevent the economy from bottoming out…

That’s the problem with anything like that. One cannot stop the economy from bottoming out. One can only change were and how it will bottom out.

32 JEA62  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:16:04am

Unfortunately for a lot of people, it’s going to be a jobless recovery.

33 sattv4u2  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:16:15am

re: #29 vxbush

Saw CNN say that the Obama administration was predicting jobs to return in 2010. That would be starting in three months. That would jive with this report.

and also what I said in #12

34 Ojoe  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:17:03am

If the economy is going up, that’s good. It sure has been slow here.

35 vxbush  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:17:20am

re: #33 sattv4u2

and also what I said in #12

Ah, so you did! I missed that. Mea culpa.

36 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:17:22am

re: #32 JEA62

Unfortunately for a lot of people, it’s going to be a jobless recovery.

There’s no such thing. The jobs follow, closer to the end of the recovery, when businesses feel that they are finally stable enough to take on new employees. Until such time, they will not hire new employees.

37 sngnsgt  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:18:27am

re: #33 sattv4u2

And of course, Obama and Dems will say they deserve all the credit.

38 Danny  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:18:37am

re: #32 JEA62

Probably for a while, but not forever. The question is, how long?

39 Killgore Trout  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:19:00am

re: #10 sattv4u2


Why? Why not?

I am so tired of both sides spending EVERY cent they can possibly get their hands on. If I have a project at work or at home, and it’s budgeted for $20,000 (just to use a round figure) and I can get the job done with the same results for $14,000 I would NEVER keep spending the other 6K just because I was going to anyway!!


I don’t really know. The economics of it all is over my head. The reason why I consider stimulus spending necessary is because as far as I can tell every modern country with a functioning government passed some kind of stimulus bill, more or less like our own. It was most likely an economic reality. If rolling back and/or canceling stimulus spending is possible we’ll see other countries start to do it first. It’s something to keep an eye on.

40 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:19:17am

re: #10 sattv4u2

Carryover from previous thread

re: #686 Killgore Trout

I don’t think cancelling stimulus is an option.

I’m no expert (not by a long shot) but seems to me that just because a project has been authorized (ie, by a stimulus bill) doesn’t mean the money has already been, or will automatically be, spent.

In other words, if it hasn’t been spent, it might be possible to cancel it.

Maybe someone else can update/correct/elaborate.

41 KingKenrod  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:19:24am

Time for all the people (like Michelle Malkin) who were griping about TARP and bank bailouts being a commie takeover to STFU about economic issues forever.

You know who deserves a lot of credit? Lame duck President Bush, who could have decided to let the banks fail (per conservative dogma) but instead took the very un-conservative approach of massive govt intervention. He may have saved the world economy. Something else he won’t get credit for.

Obama deserves credit for continuing the bailouts and for agreeing to some tax cuts. Too bad the stimulus and Obama’s agenda (if realized) are going to depress long-term job creation for years.

42 Kragar  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:19:35am

re: #34 Ojoe

If the economy is going up, that’s good. It sure has been slow here.

Around where I live, still a ton of empty businesses, empty apartments, and not a lot of hiring.

43 Right mind left  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:20:08am

I believe anyone who would work for R-BS Securities on the state of this economy!

/

44 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:20:25am

re: #38 Danny

Probably for a while, but not forever. The question is, how long?

Everything I’ve read or heard says that the recovery will take awhile. Not surprising, given that it took years to get into this mess. My guess is that it will vary from company to company and from industry to industry. However, as I said before, it is still a bit precarious, and anything might send us back into recession.

45 sattv4u2  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:20:32am

re: #37 sngnsgt

And of course, Obama and Dems will say they deserve all the credit.

They deserve some of it, but imho if they continue unabated spending the rest of the “stimulus” they could very well undo that good

46 SummerSong  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:20:42am

I think it’s a bear market rally and I will continue to make short term trades and take profits at every opportunity.

47 Kragar  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:20:55am

Pakistan arrests top Taliban commander

Pakistan has arrested a key militant commander suspected of launching suicide attacks in the country’s northwest, Pakistan’s army announced Monday.

Abu Faraj was arrested during a military operation in the Swat region, but the army statement did not say when. Abu Faraj is believed to be one of the key commanders for Maulana Fazlullah, the head of the Pakistani Taliban in Swat, who is still at large.

48 Son of the Black Dog  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:21:07am

re: #36 Honorary Yooper

There’s no such thing. The jobs follow, closer to the end of the recovery, when businesses feel that they are finally stable enough to take on new employees. Until such time, they will not hire new employees.

We now have a lot of structural unemployment in out economy. The autoworker jobs aren’t going to come back and guys who were bolting fenders on Pontiacs aren’t going to seamlessly transition into the service / information economy. Many of them will never transition.

49 albusteve  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:21:09am

re: #26 Danny

Every dollar of it? I don’t think so.

the govt has no money…how can you stimulate an economy by imposing massive debt?…how does the debt get paid off?…so you get a raise all of which gets taxed back to the feds…it’s an illusion

50 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:21:10am

“Bottoming out”…is that when the shitkicking stops for a while?
Get back to me when we see some sustained substantial positive growth in net GDP.

51 McSpiff  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:21:25am

re: #41 KingKenrod

You know what, I was not a fan of Bush at all, but I totally agree that Bush really had this one figured out. He did what had to be done, lack of support from his typical base or even the opposition be damned.

52 FrogMarch  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:21:28am

Dr. Doom say:

If not reversed, this combination of very loose fiscal and monetary policy will lead to a fiscal crisis and runaway inflation, together with another dangerous asset and credit bubble. So the key issue for policy-makers is to decide when to mop up the excess liquidity and normalize policy rates – and when to raise taxes and cut government spending, and in which combination.

Raise taxes? (no problem)
Cut governmetn spending? (yeah - right)

Getting the exit strategy right is crucial: Serious policy mistakes would significantly heighten the threat of a double-dip recession. Moreover, the risk of such a mistake is high, because the political economy of countries such as the United States may lead officials to postpone tough choices about unsustainable fiscal deficits.

In particular, the temptation for governments to use inflation to reduce the real value of public and private debts may become overwhelming. In countries where asking a legislature for tax increases and spending cuts is politically difficult, monetization of deficits and eventual inflation may become the path of least resistance.

53 sattv4u2  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:21:33am

BBIAB ,,,

54 Lysander  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:21:36am

re: #37 sngnsgt

And of course, Obama and Dems will say they deserve all the credit.

Of course they will. But they don’t - or, at least, when this turns into a double-dip recession, they will deserve the lion’s share of the credit for that event occurring.

Hope for the best, prepare for the worst. The vast majority of the “positive news” appears to be happening to “those people, over there” who are “friends of friends of relatives of friends.” When it begins happening locally, up-close-and-personal like, then start believing.

55 Killgore Trout  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:21:46am

re: #40 pre-Boomer Marine brat

It’s all very complicated and reporting on the effects of stimulus stinks. It’s usually either partisan bullshit or overly technical and too boring to read.

56 FrogMarch  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:21:56am

government

57 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:22:05am

The electronics OEMs in Dallas still have hiring on a choke-chain.

/owners of large and exuberant dogs will know what that is

58 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:22:32am

re: #48 Son of the Black Dog

We now have a lot of structural unemployment in out economy. The autoworker jobs aren’t going to come back and guys who were bolting fenders on Pontiacs aren’t going to seamlessly transition into the service / information economy. Many of them will never transition.

Especially since many of the information jobs are being outsourced to India.

In the past, new technology has given the US good jobs while old technologies went overseas. I don’t see anything new coming up, except biotech, and cost controls on health care will kill that.

59 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:23:02am

re: #47 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Pakistan arrests top Taliban commander

We can only hope they don’t release him in a few months.

60 experiencedtraveller  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:23:16am

re: #46 SummerSong

I think it’s a bear market rally and I will continue to make short term trades and take profits at every opportunity.

If so its the best bear market rally in history.

61 cliffster  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:23:30am

“Priming the pump” spending seems to be a good idea, but there are way too many zeros involved. And, following the Keynesian logic, when the recovery is proven, we need to start paying off the inconceivable debt we racked up through both Bush’s and Obama’s stimulus. Think that’ll happen?

62 Fenway_Nation  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:23:47am

re: #59 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Or they turn him over to us and we release him.

63 Pianobuff  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:24:18am

re: #55 Killgore Trout

It’s all very complicated and reporting on the effects of stimulus stinks. It’s usually either partisan bullshit or overly technical and too boring to read.

It didn’t seem complicated when the White House explained how the stimulus saved or created jobs.

They said they had a model that predicted for every y dollars spent it would create x amount of jobs.

They spent y dollars, therefore x jobs. That’s pretty simple.

64 Leonidas Hoplite  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:25:12am

re: #63 Pianobuff

It didn’t seem complicated when the White House explained how the stimulus saved or created jobs.

They said they had a model that predicted for every y dollars spent it would create x amount of jobs.

They spent y dollars, therefore x jobs. That’s pretty simple.

Garbage in, garbage out.

65 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:25:31am

re: #55 Killgore Trout

It’s all very complicated and reporting on the effects of stimulus stinks. It’s usually either partisan bullshit or overly technical and too boring to read.

I agree. From many years of seeing economy articles in the press, my eyes are glazed and my forehead has the imprint of my keyboard upon it.

66 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:25:43am

Anecdotal, I know…

I have had more sales in the past four months than I did in the previous twelve months.

Was scary as shit, and I had it better than many.

Prayers that the recovery is on the way. People have been hurt, I pray for their recovery.

67 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:27:06am

Where’s 3wood?

68 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:27:13am

This is good news. And we should see some growth.

Just a caveat - our last cycle’s growth was not fueled by productivity - it was fueled by cheap money made available by productivity and growth overseas.

If the dollar continues to cheapen we won’t see as much benefit from off shore growth UNLESS we start exporting more goods and services.

So our economy needs to retool - and a comparative “soft landing” that we had (versus a full carnage crash of our banking system which we could have had) dampened some of the pain and delayed that retooling. A cheap dollar is good for driving exports and shrinking imports, but our economy is not prepared to fully take advantage of it. Getting there will be slow and taking on new public obligations through a prospective public health insurance system and further stimulus spending will keep that retooling slow. Why? Because entrepreneurs have to compete with the government to get access to capital while having to pay the government more in terms of taxes and benefits.

This is why western european economies never post big growth numbers. On the flip side they don’t feel the pains of recession as sharply.

Altogether, this next cycle will be led by China, India and Brazil. We should see slow growth and nominal household income growth. But no lines for soup kitchens.

69 debutaunt  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:28:34am

re: #5 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I’ll believe it when I see jobs being generated again.

How can small business add jobs with all the uncertainty about imposed health care and all those added costs?

70 SummerSong  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:28:40am

re: #60 experiencedtraveller

If so its the best bear market rally in history.

No. In 1932 the Dow soared 111% in just 98 days.

71 SixDegrees  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:28:51am

re: #67 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Where’s 3wood?

Laid off, as of a couple weeks ago. He stopped posting at the same time. Probably focusing his energies on finding employment.

72 canuck99  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:30:18am

The fact that this report has to come from a “Royal Bank of Scotland” agency may same a bit morde about the “American” recovery. ;-)

73 Son of the Black Dog  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:30:24am

re: #64 Leonidas Hoplite

Garbage in, garbage out.

It’s worse than that; not only are the inputs to the model garbage, but the model itself is garbage.

74 cliffster  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:30:53am

It’s easy to make yourself appear successful, if you run up your credit card in doing so.

75 canuck99  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:31:08am

(Sorry poor typing)…The fact that this report has to come from a “Royal Bank of Scotland” agency may say a bit more about the “American” recovery. ;-)

76 Son of the Black Dog  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:31:21am

re: #67 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Where’s 3wood?

Maybe he got a job?

77 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:31:44am

re: #71 SixDegrees

Laid off, as of a couple weeks ago. He stopped posting at the same time. Probably focusing his energies on finding employment.

Sorry. But the idea of a man like that being laid off from anything just effing stuns me. What a smart son of a gun.

78 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:31:46am

After several layoffs over the years (dot com bubble burst, failed startups, bad choices for employment), I have to say that I’ve been very fortunate for the last few years to actually have steady employment during all this turmoil. Considering how many of my friends are still looking for jobs (or taking crappy ones to make ends meet), I feel pretty blessed to be in a non-flux state of living (for too many years that definitely wasn’t the case).

I hope that things turn around for the economy. I’ll believe it when I see it.

79 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:32:08am

re: #70 SummerSong

No. In 1932 the Dow soared 111% in just 98 days.

Very true, but not much of a recovery really happened until after the depression-within-a-depression of 1937.

80 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:32:14am

re: #61 cliffster

“Priming the pump” spending seems to be a good idea, but there are way too many zeros involved. And, following the Keynesian logic, when the recovery is proven, we need to start paying off the inconceivable debt we racked up through both Bush’s and Obama’s stimulus. Think that’ll happen?

You have to hand one thing to the Clinton administration - when they saw recovery they got stingy on spending. Many things that Clinton would announce were policy changes with no new spending. he was good at making his left wing think he was spending more when all he did was largely redirect existing streams. The government placed a lower borrowing burden on the economy and new businesses flourished.

This was a strategy he adopted after his loss of a democratic congress. he played it smart and Americans saw a great benefit from divided government. I hope Obama (who is surrounded by Clinton appointees) sees the same logic and we see divided government again after 2010.

81 Fenway_Nation  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:33:24am

re: #74 cliffster

I paid off the entire balance on 2 out of my 3 cards like earlier this year. I feel like a chump.

82 Killgore Trout  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:33:45am

re: #63 Pianobuff

That’s what I file under partisan bullshit. I don’t believe what Obama claims about his own handling of the economy. I’ll wait until some real economists weigh in on the issue.

83 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:33:58am

re: #80 karmic_inquisitor

You have to hand one thing to the Clinton administration - when they saw recovery they got stingy on spending. Many things that Clinton would announce were policy changes with no new spending. he was good at making his left wing think he was spending more when all he did was largely redirect existing streams. The government placed a lower borrowing burden on the economy and new businesses flourished.

This was a strategy he adopted after his loss of a democratic congress. he played it smart and Americans saw a great benefit from divided government. I hope Obama (who is surrounded by Clinton appointees) sees the same logic and we see divided government again after 2010.

I’m not sure Obama will behave the way Clinton did. Look at how quickly Clinton dropped his health care ideas when they weren’t received. Obama is trying to convince everyone he’s right.

84 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:34:53am

I recall a sci fi short story from decades ago — not much sci and probably more like sci fantasy.

America was in the grip of a severe depression. Gov’t analysts had figured out precisely when/where it began.

A couple had decided to forgo the purchase of a refrigerator. Looking at his sales figures, the appliance dealer had decided to postpone the purchase of the fishing boat he’d been talking to the boat dealer about. The boat dealer (looking at his numbers) … et cetera … et cetera.

The gov’t analysts went to Omaha (or wherever) and gave the couple the money to purchase a refrigerator. Within a few months, the economy was roaring again.

/it was a cute story, and OF COURSE I believed it could happen in real life

85 princetrumpet  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:35:51am

I hope this is true. I’m in a business that depends on ticket sales and donations as well as corporate gifts. My question for the resident economics mavens is this:

Since my understanding is that many businesses are doing better because they’ve cut back on costs, duplication, and labor, what is the motivation for companies that have gone leaner to hire back those workers? Is that just something that will take a long time relative to what we seen this before, historically speaking?

I know everything goes in cycles but it seems as though we are looking at a more trim approach to doing business now.

Thanks.

86 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:36:05am

re: #84 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I recall a sci fi short story from decades ago — not much sci and probably more like sci fantasy.

America was in the grip of a severe depression. Gov’t analysts had figured out precisely when/where it began.

A couple had decided to forgo the purchase of a refrigerator. Looking at his sales figures, the appliance dealer had decided to postpone the purchase of the fishing boat he’d been talking to the boat dealer about. The boat dealer (looking at his numbers) … et cetera … et cetera.

The gov’t analysts went to Omaha (or wherever) and gave the couple the money to purchase a refrigerator. Within a few months, the economy was roaring again.

/it was a cute story, and OF COURSE I believed it could happen in real life

We could use a new dishwasher. I’ll have to ask Obama for some stimulus funds.
///

87 experiencedtraveller  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:36:28am

re: #70 SummerSong

No. In 1932 the Dow soared 111% in just 98 days.

True. I should have written modern history. But I find no way to reasonably use any pre-WWII statistics to compare with present market conditions.

…and I think its a V recovery ;)

88 Fenway_Nation  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:37:22am

BTW, wasn’t Michelle 0bama sneering at the $300/$600 stimulus checks that were being mailed out during the Bush Admin. this time last year?

89 debutaunt  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:37:36am

re: #43 Right mind left

I believe anyone who would work for R-BS Securities on the state of this economy!

/

hahahahahahahahahhahahahahahhaaha

90 Racer X  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:37:37am

Good news!

Now, can the president keep the ball rolling while exercising fiscal restraint?

91 Pianobuff  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:37:57am

re: #80 karmic_inquisitor

You have to hand one thing to the Clinton administration - when they saw recovery they got stingy on spending. Many things that Clinton would announce were policy changes with no new spending. he was good at making his left wing think he was spending more when all he did was largely redirect existing streams. The government placed a lower borrowing burden on the economy and new businesses flourished.

This was a strategy he adopted after his loss of a democratic congress. he played it smart and Americans saw a great benefit from divided government. I hope Obama (who is surrounded by Clinton appointees) sees the same logic and we see divided government again after 2010.

Clinton/Rep Congress was actually a very good combination for many things (not all though).

92 Land Shark  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:38:54am

re: #80 karmic_inquisitor

I couldn’t agree more. Clinton was far more of a pragmatist than Obama, Obama is ruled too much by his ideology. Personally, I think Clinton was a better president than my fellow conservatives give him credit for. Heck, I wish he were president now.

I really hope the economy is going to improve, too many folks out of work. And I fear what’s going to happen once the bill for all this spending this year comes due. We shall see.

93 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:38:57am

re: #86 Kosh’s Shadow

We could use a new dishwasher. I’ll have to ask Obama for some stimulus funds.
///

Just remember to say that you decided, last summer, to delay buying one.

/wanna buy a bridge? … cheap, good condition, nice neighborhood … :D

94 SixDegrees  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:38:57am

re: #85 princetrumpet

I hope this is true. I’m in a business that depends on ticket sales and donations as well as corporate gifts. My question for the resident economics mavens is this:

Since my understanding is that many businesses are doing better because they’ve cut back on costs, duplication, and labor, what is the motivation for companies that have gone leaner to hire back those workers? Is that just something that will take a long time relative to what we seen this before, historically speaking?

I know everything goes in cycles but it seems as though we are looking at a more trim approach to doing business now.

Employment is always the last thing to recover once growth begins again. People will be rehired only when companies are certain of future growth and when there is simply more work to do than current staffing can handle.

Unemployment will probably continue to rise through the end of the year, perhaps longer, no matter how well the economy as a whole is doing.


Thanks.

95 Guanxi88  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:39:15am

re: #84 pre-Boomer Marine brat

re: #86 Kosh’s Shadow

That’s the funny thing, and South Park pointed it out, as well. The “natural” response of the consumer to a downturn or recession is to spend less, and it’s always sound practice for people to spend less than they bring in, of course.

However, the effects of this ideal upon the larger economy are devastating. If people don’t spend their money, and spend it quite regularly, the recession only gets worse, and people hold even more tightly onto their money.

It’s paradoxical that the best thing to do for your own finances is the one thing that can screw up everybody else’s.

96 JohnnyReb  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:39:52am

re: #85 princetrumpet

I hope this is true. I’m in a business that depends on ticket sales and donations as well as corporate gifts. My question for the resident economics mavens is this:

Since my understanding is that many businesses are doing better because they’ve cut back on costs, duplication, and labor, what is the motivation for companies that have gone leaner to hire back those workers? Is that just something that will take a long time relative to what we seen this before, historically speaking?

I know everything goes in cycles but it seems as though we are looking at a more trim approach to doing business now.

Thanks.

They have no reason to hire anyone back unless and until demand for their product or service out paces their ability to deliver. Only real and continuous growth can get us out of the huge hole the economy is in. Don’t believe the hype, the economy is still treading on very thin ice and one minor shock will set it on a downward spiral once again.

97 jdog29  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:40:01am

re: #87 experiencedtraveller

True. I should have written modern history. But I find no way to reasonably use any pre-WWII statistics to compare with present market conditions.

…and I think its a V recovery ;)

Think of all of these current conditions as parallel to the conditions of before WWII and now were looking at the inevitable Israel v. Iran to known as a 10 day war middle east power broking police action or, er, ARMAGEDDON ///

98 Son of the Black Dog  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:40:09am

My fear is that the economy is going to come roaring back, much too fast, and that we’re going to be looking at inflation and interest rates on the scale of the Carter years. That could actually be worse for the majority of Americans than a long flat-bottomed recession.

99 Dianna  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:40:49am

re: #90 Racer X

Good news!

Now, can the president keep the ball rolling while exercising fiscal restraint?

We wish. But the President isn’t in charge of spending, congress is. And that doesn’t make me very happy.

100 cliffster  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:41:11am

re: #90 Racer X

Good news!

Now, can the president keep the ball rolling while exercising fiscal restraint?

Ya never know.

101 SixDegrees  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:41:16am

re: #86 Kosh’s Shadow

We could use a new dishwasher. I’ll have to ask Obama for some stimulus funds.
///

I believe there are some available, if you purchase an energy-efficient appliance. Not certain if that program has actually started yet, or if it’s still just a proposal, but if you’re in the market it would certainly be worth checking into.

102 Racer X  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:41:46am

IMHO, the worldwide financial collapse was set in motion after the terrorist attacks of 9/11. Bush and Co. were able to stave off the collapse due to the two wars we were fighting. The signs were there but the warnings went unheeded. The shit didn’t hit the fan until the last two months of his term.

Rove you magnificent Bastard!

103 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:42:16am

re: #83 Kosh’s Shadow

I’m not sure Obama will behave the way Clinton did. Look at how quickly Clinton dropped his health care ideas when they weren’t received. Obama is trying to convince everyone he’s right.

I agree that Obama is pressing the fight. My own assessment is that he still is very much a moralist and sees the moral dimensions of what he wants to do as overriding the economic burden. The refrain from most progressives? “We can afford it.”

unless we have an economy driven by actual productivity growth (which also requires cheaper energy inputs per dollar of output, BTW) then the retort is “No we can’t.”

We will see if his morality overrides practicality. It did with Bush at times whereas Clinton wasn’t really committed to the ideology that got him into office.

104 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:42:40am

re: #93 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Just remember to say that you decided, last summer, to delay buying one.

/wanna buy a bridge? … cheap, good condition, nice neighborhood … :D

Well, it was several months ago that the door switch broke on ours, so it won’t stop if the door is opened. But we don’t want to pay to have the door taken apart for a 15 year old dishwasher. We figured we’d replace it when it completely breaks. (As we found out when our freezer broke, you can get appliances delivered within 24 hours.)

105 Killgore Trout  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:42:45am

re: #98 Son of the Black Dog

My fear is that the economy is going to come roaring back, much too fast, and that we’re going to be looking at inflation and interest rates on the scale of the Carter years. That could actually be worse for the majority of Americans than a long flat-bottomed recession.

That’s a very good point. It’s my understanding that too much growth too soon can result in inflation. The Fed is soaking up all the liquidity from their printing sprees a few months ago and that’s going to take take. I’m sure they’re working on a controlled and steady recovery.

106 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:43:00am

re: #81 Fenway_Nation

I paid off the entire balance on 2 out of my 3 cards like earlier this year. I feel like a chump.

Why?

107 cliffster  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:43:01am

re: #99 Dianna

We wish. But the President isn’t in charge of spending, congress is. And that doesn’t make me very happy.

You don’t think Obama and Pelosi would play chicken and threaten to shut down the government? /

108 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:43:05am

re: #101 SixDegrees

I believe there are some available, if you purchase an energy-efficient appliance. Not certain if that program has actually started yet, or if it’s still just a proposal, but if you’re in the market it would certainly be worth checking into.

Some electric utilities are already giving around $30 toward a new fridge and they will take the old one away.

109 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:44:31am

re: #95 Guanxi88

re: #86 Kosh’s Shadow

That’s the funny thing, and South Park pointed it out, as well. The “natural” response of the consumer to a downturn or recession is to spend less, and it’s always sound practice for people to spend less than they bring in, of course.

However, the effects of this ideal upon the larger economy are devastating. If people don’t spend their money, and spend it quite regularly, the recession only gets worse, and people hold even more tightly onto their money.

It’s paradoxical that the best thing to do for your own finances is the one thing that can screw up everybody else’s.

Well, I’m still paying off debt from when I was unemployed for 20 months a few years ago. (I got some part time work but that plus unemployment couldn’t cover anything near what we need, and we don’t live extravagantly.) So I don’t have the money to spend.

110 BlackFedora  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:44:34am

Charles, God damn it Charles… DON’T YOU KNOW THAT THE FEDERAL RESERVE IS LYING TO US AND IS UNDER THE CONTROL OF THE ALIENS?! RON PAUL IS AGAINST IT! GOLD STANDARD! GOLD STANDARD OR WE’RE ALL GONNA DIE!

/sarcasm

111 Fenway_Nation  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:44:39am

re: #98 Son of the Black Dog

While I’m daydreaming, I’d like to see the US$ regain some of it’s value versus commodities and other currencies. For a little while it got an unexpected boost in the midst of the economic crisis. I suspect it had something to do with foreign nationals preferring to have their money in greenbacks instead of pesos, rials or korunas…(absent other commodities naturally).

112 avanti  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:44:56am

Judge considers 10K fine for birther Taitz.


fine.

113 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:45:30am

re: #98 Son of the Black Dog

My fear is that the economy is going to come roaring back, much too fast, and that we’re going to be looking at inflation and interest rates on the scale of the Carter years. That could actually be worse for the majority of Americans than a long flat-bottomed recession.

Good point. Such a quick recovery with high inflation might simply throw us back into recession. I hope Killgore is right about the recovery.

114 Leonidas Hoplite  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:45:45am

re: #103 karmic_inquisitor

The refrain from most progressives? “We can afford it.”

My favorite refrain of the left is “We can’t afford not to do it.”

Right. Until you run out of money. And your neighbors money. And your creditors money. Then you can’t afford to do it. By then, of course, it’s too late. Banana Republic here we come!

115 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:45:48am

re: #85 princetrumpet

They’re gonna stay as lean as they can.

116 SixDegrees  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:46:05am

re: #101 SixDegrees

I believe there are some available, if you purchase an energy-efficient appliance. Not certain if that program has actually started yet, or if it’s still just a proposal, but if you’re in the market it would certainly be worth checking into.

Here you go. You’ll want to check with your state, apparently, to see what’s available in your area.

117 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:46:26am

re: #112 avanti

Judge considers 10K fine for birther Taitz.


fine.

*ditto*

/pun by indirection

118 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:46:27am

re: #108 Cannadian Club Akbar

Some electric utilities are already giving around $30 toward a new fridge and they will take the old one away.

That’s not enough.

119 Pianobuff  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:46:54am

re: #105 Killgore Trout

That’s a very good point. It’s my understanding that too much growth too soon can result in inflation. The Fed is soaking up all the liquidity from their printing sprees a few months ago and that’s going to take take. I’m sure they’re working on a controlled and steady recovery.

I thought it was around 400 billion, but there’s still a lot more out there. IMO, one of the biggest decisions over the next 12 months is exactly when to make the first interest rate increase and by how much.

It has to be done, there is no way around it. I wish them all the luck in the world getting that right, because above all things, I believe that’s going to be the point at which we are either in a sustainable recovery or back into another dip.

I’m not an economist though.

120 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:47:17am

re: #110 BlackFedora

Charles, God damn it Charles… DON’T YOU KNOW THAT THE FEDERAL RESERVE IS LYING TO US AND IS UNDER THE CONTROL OF THE ALIENS?! RON PAUL IS AGAINST IT! GOLD STANDARD! GOLD STANDARD OR WE’RE ALL GONNA DIE!

/sarcasm

The aliens won’t let us starve; they just want to serve Man.

/and starving people don’t have enough meat on their bones.

121 Fenway_Nation  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:47:31am

re: #106 Creeping Eruption

Didn’t the house and senate pass some laws affecting the credit card companies in the name of consumer protection?

122 princetrumpet  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:47:34am

re: #115 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

They’re gonna stay as lean as they can.

Now, if we could just get the federal government to do the same…

123 [deleted]  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:47:47am
124 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:47:53am

re: #114 Leonidas Hoplite

My favorite refrain of the left is “We can’t afford not to do it.”

Right. Until you run out of money. And your neighbors money. And your creditors money. Then you can’t afford to do it. By then, of course, it’s too late. Banana Republic here we come!

It is very cynical for the left to frame new benefits as somehow saving us all money. The CBO has proven that to be untrue yet we still hear it repeated.

125 jdog29  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:47:53am

re: #112 avanti

Judge considers 10K fine for birther Taitz.


fine.

“Now is that fine a tax or is that fine just a fine?” George Stephanopolis

126 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:48:52am

re: #104 Kosh’s Shadow

Well, it was several months ago that the door switch broke on ours, so it won’t stop if the door is opened. But we don’t want to pay to have the door taken apart for a 15 year old dishwasher. We figured we’d replace it when it completely breaks. (As we found out when our freezer broke, you can get appliances delivered within 24 hours.)

My (rather ancient) clothes dryer has begun making noise. Got my ducks lined up, JIC, at the Maytag store last week.

127 HoosierHoops  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:48:57am

re: #120 Kosh’s Shadow

The aliens won’t let us starve; they just want to serve Man.

/and starving people don’t have enough meat on their bones.

Neo will save us..He he THE ONE.
/

128 SixDegrees  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:49:04am

re: #121 Fenway_Nation

Didn’t the house and senate pass some laws affecting the credit card companies in the name of consumer protection?

Yes. Mostly, the changes don’t take effect until the first of the year. Some minor changes went into effect a couple weeks ago.

129 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:49:21am

re: #121 Fenway_Nation

Didn’t the house and senate pass some laws affecting the credit card companies in the name of consumer protection?

Weak changes that stave off the inevitable. IIRC it has to do with giving consumers more notice that higher rates will kick in and they have to send you your bill more than 2 weeks before its do. I am pretty sure you still need to pay your bills.

130 Dianna  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:50:27am

re: #107 cliffster

You don’t think Obama and Pelosi would play chicken and threaten to shut down the government? /

No, I’m afraid Pelosi will spend even more wildly than the Republican congress did.

131 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:50:34am

I bought a new fridge and stove 2 years ago. I couldn’t find anything worth while in the stores, but found what I needed online. And much cheaper.

132 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:52:09am

re: #127 HoosierHoops

Neo will save us..He he THE ONE.
/

I thought Sheridan was The One.

133 avanti  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:52:16am

re: #126 pre-Boomer Marine brat

My (rather ancient) clothes dryer has begun making noise. Got my ducks lined up, JIC, at the Maytag store last week.

I bought a “rebuild” kit for mine on the net. $40, got me new rollers and belt for the drum.

134 Son of the Black Dog  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:52:17am

re: #105 Killgore Trout

That’s a very good point. It’s my understanding that too much growth too soon can result in inflation. The Fed is soaking up all the liquidity from their printing sprees a few months ago and that’s going to take take. I’m sure they’re working on a controlled and steady recovery.

While I haven’t run the numbers, we’re looking at a doubling or tripling of the national debt is a very short period of time. This implies a tremendous increase in the money supply. With the constant-dollar economy growing slowing at best, we get rampant inflation, with accompanying high interest rates. There’s only so much the Fed can soak up. Most of that spending hasn’t actually been done yet, so we could be in for a wild ride.

135 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:52:45am

re: #112 avanti

Judge considers 10K fine for birther Taitz.

fine.

Only $10,000? Damn. I was hoping for something more substantial.

136 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:52:58am

re: #133 avanti

I bought a “rebuild” kit for mine on the net. $40, got me new rollers and belt for the drum.

Hmm!

137 cliffster  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:53:21am

re: #134 Son of the Black Dog

While I haven’t run the numbers, we’re looking at a doubling or tripling of the national debt is a very short period of time. This implies a tremendous increase in the money supply. With the constant-dollar economy growing slowing at best, we get rampant inflation, with accompanying high interest rates. There’s only so much the Fed can soak up. Most of that spending hasn’t actually been done yet, so we could be in for a wild ride.

Your money in the mattress is going to take a serious hit

138 Kragar  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:53:31am

re: #127 HoosierHoops

Neo will save us..He he THE ONE.
/

Fun fact, the basic idea for the Matrix is a rip off of this movie

139 Dianna  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:53:35am

re: #129 Creeping Eruption

Weak changes that stave off the inevitable. IIRC it has to do with giving consumers more notice that higher rates will kick in and they have to send you your bill more than 2 weeks before its do. I am pretty sure you still need to pay your bills.

Not if you believe the ads on the radio!

140 funky chicken  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:53:43am

re: #86 Kosh’s Shadow

We could use a new dishwasher. I’ll have to ask Obama for some stimulus funds.
///

Hey Kosh, I see the ///, but I got a fantastic deal on a GE dishwaher just a couple of weeks ago. GE is completely revamping their Energy Star line, so the prices on the “old” units have really dropped. I do think you can get some of the tax credit (30% of cost of the appliance?) because they are energy star also.

just FYI

141 Kragar  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:53:53am

re: #132 Kosh’s Shadow

I thought Sheridan was The One.

Xathrus was the one.

142 Fenway_Nation  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:54:06am

re: #128 SixDegrees

re: #129 Creeping Eruption


They kind of back-doored the higher interest rates on me. For two of the cards, the company that issued them was taken over by Bank of America. With that takeover came higher interest rates…can’t remember the specifics at the moment, but it went from single-digit to double digits.

143 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:54:20am

re: #129 Creeping Eruption

Weak changes that stave off the inevitable. IIRC it has to do with giving consumers more notice that higher rates will kick in and they have to send you your bill more than 2 weeks before its do. I am pretty sure you still need to pay your bills.

Well, I’ve been going to the cards’ web sites to get my bills, because the paper ones (mailed about 2 weeks before the due date) weren’t getting to me in time for me unless I processed the bill right away. And it still takes them a week from the closing date to get the bill on the web; that at least gives me 3 weeks to pay, using the bill payer service from my credit union.

144 reine.de.tout  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:55:01am

re: #108 Cannadian Club Akbar

Some electric utilities are already giving around $30 toward a new fridge and they will take the old one away.

$30?
Have you priced refrigerators lately?

145 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:55:49am

What would help save money in the economy vis-a-vis health insurance is to allow plans that are multistate, eliminate group coverage discounts and perhaps eliminating coverage as an employment benefit (I know that last suggestion is radical and scary).

If health insurance companies had to sell to individuals but could do it in any state you would see so many new types of plans come onto the market that catastrophic coverage would be cheap for young people and families could get coverage that fit their own risk profile, saving money by buying high deductible policies.

As for selling, the internet gives insurance companies a scalable means of selling the policies without having to hire more commissioned reps (who now sell the group plans - part of the reason for group discounts is the commissions get spread over more heads).

146 Killgore Trout  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:55:57am

re: #142 Fenway_Nation

I cut up/didn’t renew all of my credit cards a few months ago. I have only my debit card left.

147 [deleted]  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:56:04am
148 Son of the Black Dog  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:56:12am

re: #111 Fenway_Nation

While I’m daydreaming, I’d like to see the US$ regain some of it’s value versus commodities and other currencies. For a little while it got an unexpected boost in the midst of the economic crisis. I suspect it had something to do with foreign nationals preferring to have their money in greenbacks instead of pesos, rials or korunas…(absent other commodities naturally).

But, slowly foreigners are shifting their preference to other stores of wealth. Witness the recent all time high in gold. (I am not a proponent of the gold standard.) Witness also the advancement of schemes for pricing petroleum using a basket of currencies, as opposed to dollars only.

149 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:56:14am

re: #144 reine.de.tout

$30?
Have you priced refrigerators lately?

I was just saying some utilities were giving rebates. I payed $650 for mine in ‘07.

150 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:56:27am

re: #138 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Fun fact, the basic idea for the Matrix is a rip off of this movie

Here’s one review of that movie

The film is full of emotionless plastic looking robots, one robot whom constantly cracks corny jokes, killer sockpuppets, heroes and heroines in skimpy outfits, villainess that can’t speak English well, Omnipressant being called “The Dark One” (Ooooh, scarry! NOT!) and a captive that looks like a human avacado. How can anyone take this seriously? Most everyone I watched this MST3K episode with laughed their heads off and wondered if this film was a comedy.


Looks like lgf2 gets inspiration there, as well.
And the heroines in skimpy outfits works for me.

151 SixDegrees  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:56:30am

re: #142 Fenway_Nation

re: #129 Creeping Eruption

They kind of back-doored the higher interest rates on me. For two of the cards, the company that issued them was taken over by Bank of America. With that takeover came higher interest rates…can’t remember the specifics at the moment, but it went from single-digit to double digits.

Yup. The six month+ phase-in period is nothing but an opportunity to get all of their customers converted over to the highest rates and worst payment plans they possibly can, before such changes get harder to make under the incoming regulations. In a word, it’s a crock, and it accomplishes nothing meaningful for consumers.

152 Jetpilot1101  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:56:39am

I’m somewhat skeptical on the recession ending and the economy coming out of it’s funk. Below is a quote from a recent article I read.

No one likes to be the bearer of bad news, but absent an immediate about-face by the wildly interventionist government, you can ignore all reports of green shoots.

Monetizing the debt and spending like a drunken sailor are a recipe for disaster. I want the economy to rebound just as much as anyone but until jobs begin to be created en masse and the federal budget shows some semblance of being balanced, I’m not going to hold my breath.

153 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:56:45am

re: #123 buzzsawmonkey

Bad sneakers, and a pina colada, my friend
Stompin’ on the avenue by Radio City with a
Transistor, and lots of money to spend.

—Steely Dan

I’m reminded of a funny story. Several Christmases ago, my folks asked me what I wanted as a gift. I told them that I was interested in the Steely Dan box set (I did not specify that I wanted music CDs). I guess when they went to look it up, they discovered what a Steely Dan was (the item, and not the band). Apparently, they were pretty confused as to why I would want a set of dildos.

It was an awkward Christmas that year.

/note, I did explain later what I was /really/ looking for.

154 HoosierHoops  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:57:43am

re: #144 reine.de.tout

$30?
Have you priced refrigerators lately?

All true American have a beer fridge.. It’s like the law or something..
{reine)

155 subsailor68  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:57:51am

Morning all! This article really isn’t OT:

Car showrooms quiet after clunkers clamor ends

But once the federal money dried up, so did the sales rally. Now, customers at dealerships like Silko Honda in Raynham are few and far between, and inventory is once again accumulating.

A couple of lizards (3wood must have been one of them!) predicted this. When government tries to emulate private industry, unintended consequences usually follow.

Moral of the story for me is: “This is an example of why I’m not comfortable with government trying to ‘fix’ the economy, and I’m sure not comfortable with government trying to ‘fix’ heath care.”

156 [deleted]  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:57:54am
157 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:57:54am

re: #141 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Xathrus was the one.

No, Zathras worked for the One. Only he worked for Sinclair
So that makes TWO The Ones. I guess with inflation…

158 avanti  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:58:00am

re: #136 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Hmm!

Try dryer parts.

159 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:58:22am

I’ve been debating saying that I wash my own (bachelor’s) dishes by hand, and a “new dishwasher” would be just TOO DANG EXPENSIVE !

Then I notice a few lady Lizards on the thread, and bite my tongue.

/*ducking* … *running like hell*

160 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:58:38am

re: #131 Cannadian Club Akbar

I bought a new fridge and stove 2 years ago. I couldn’t find anything worth while in the stores, but found what I needed online. And much cheaper.

Funny story - and people wonder why some stores just don’t make it. My wife and I too were looking for appliances about 2 years ago. The economy was (still is) in the toilet but we needed new stuff. We were motivated buyers. We walked in to a store and, as expected, were immediately accosted by a salesperson. We told him we were going to buy a stove, fridge, oven and microwave, we wanted to see what they had, deals etc. The guy walks us and says things like “this one is pretty cool” and “I hear some people like this one,” and “this is the ‘on’ button.” Inane and time wasting things of that nature. We were annoyed that he couldn’t answer our basic questions about his products, but the best was when he simply disappeared after we asked him to check a price. 10 minutes later (we had already decided to leave, but were checking out tv’s) we say him gabbing with a co-worker. We laughed, walked out, and bought all the stuff from the competitor (who remembered us from a purchase 4 years ago).
re: #143 Kosh’s Shadow

Well, I’ve been going to the cards’ web sites to get my bills, because the paper ones (mailed about 2 weeks before the due date) weren’t getting to me in time for me unless I processed the bill right away. And it still takes them a week from the closing date to get the bill on the web; that at least gives me 3 weeks to pay, using the bill payer service from my credit union.

161 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:58:40am

re: #152 Jetpilot1101

I’m somewhat skeptical on the recession ending and the economy coming out of it’s funk. Below is a quote from a recent article I read.

Monetizing the debt and spending like a drunken sailor are a recipe for disaster. I want the economy to rebound just as much as anyone but until jobs begin to be created en masse and the federal budget shows some semblance of being balanced, I’m not going to hold my breath.

Job growth under Clinton came from small business formation.

There is a great deal of uncertainty right now for small businesses to deal with, especially the uncertainty about what health insurance they may have to provide.

162 SpaceJesus  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:58:54am

re: #112 avanti

Judge considers 10K fine for birther Taitz.

fine.

rule 11 i love you so

163 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:59:07am

re: #143 Kosh’s Shadow

Well, I’ve been going to the cards’ web sites to get my bills, because the paper ones (mailed about 2 weeks before the due date) weren’t getting to me in time for me unless I processed the bill right away. And it still takes them a week from the closing date to get the bill on the web; that at least gives me 3 weeks to pay, using the bill payer service from my credit union.

Same here

164 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 9:59:10am

re: #159 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I’ve been debating saying that I wash my own (bachelor’s) dishes by hand, and a “new dishwasher” would be just TOO DANG EXPENSIVE !

Then I notice a few lady Lizards on the thread, and bite my tongue.

/*ducking* … *running like hell*

I have never owned a dishwasher and never will.

165 [deleted]  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:00:00am
166 cliffster  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:01:03am

re: #145 karmic_inquisitor

If health insurance companies had to sell to individuals but could do it in any state you would see so many new types of plans come onto the market that catastrophic coverage would be cheap for young people and families could get coverage that fit their own risk profile, saving money by buying high deductible policies.

This inter-state insurance sales bit is such a big deal I can’t believe it doesn’t get more people talking about it. Or maybe it does and I just haven’t heard it. But it seems to me like one of the single biggest problems, and you don’t hear about it.

167 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:01:16am

re: #158 avanti

Try dryer parts.

THANK YOU!

168 cliffster  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:02:16am

re: #159 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I’ve been debating saying that I wash my own (bachelor’s) dishes by hand, and a “new dishwasher” would be just TOO DANG EXPENSIVE !

Then I notice a few lady Lizards on the thread, and bite my tongue.

/*ducking* … *running like hell*

better run fast ;)

169 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:02:33am

OT -

OK, now I have almost 2 inches of snow outside. Who ordered this? My first winter in the mountains and it has to start early. Picture perfect. I hate perfect pictures.

170 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:02:40am

re: #145 karmic_inquisitor

What would help save money in the economy vis-a-vis health insurance is to allow plans that are multistate, eliminate group coverage discounts and perhaps eliminating coverage as an employment benefit (I know that last suggestion is radical and scary).

If health insurance companies had to sell to individuals but could do it in any state you would see so many new types of plans come onto the market that catastrophic coverage would be cheap for young people and families could get coverage that fit their own risk profile, saving money by buying high deductible policies.

As for selling, the internet gives insurance companies a scalable means of selling the policies without having to hire more commissioned reps (who now sell the group plans - part of the reason for group discounts is the commissions get spread over more heads).

A bigger problem with that scenario is that each State has its own set of laws governing the insurance industry in that State. You are then looking at some kind of Uniform Act like LLC statutes, or State variants of UCC laws. That takes a while for States to adopt, nothing says they have to, and nothing says their “Uniform Law” will not be different from the State next door.

Barring those issues, it is an interesting idea.

171 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:03:21am

re: #166 cliffster

This inter-state insurance sales bit is such a big deal I can’t believe it doesn’t get more people talking about it. Or maybe it does and I just haven’t heard it. But it seems to me like one of the single biggest problems, and you don’t hear about it.

It would cause problems in high cost states. I knew someone who got insurance through IEEE, and it payed maybe half the cost of a hospital room in Massachusetts.
Companies would either not sell insurance in high cost states, or have to charge everyone more to cover it.

172 cliffster  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:03:23am

re: #170 Creeping Eruption

Good point.

173 jdog29  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:03:26am

re: #166 cliffster

This inter-state insurance sales bit is such a big deal I can’t believe it doesn’t get more people talking about it. Or maybe it does and I just haven’t heard it. But it seems to me like one of the single biggest problems, and you don’t hear about it.

It’s because REAL solutions get shouted down by “DEATH PANELS, NAZI, OBAMA IS THE ANTI-CHRIST”

174 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:04:11am

re: #169 Walter L. Newton

OT -

OK, now I have almost 2 inches of snow outside. Who ordered this? My first winter in the mountains and it has to start early. Picture perfect. I hate perfect pictures.

Welcome to Autumn. ;-)

175 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:04:16am

re: #166 cliffster

This inter-state insurance sales bit is such a big deal I can’t believe it doesn’t get more people talking about it. Or maybe it does and I just haven’t heard it. But it seems to me like one of the single biggest problems, and you don’t hear about it.

I never seem to hear about it. In some states you have to set up a local corp to get a group of employees on a group policy. It really is burdensome.

176 Son of the Black Dog  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:05:46am

re: #137 cliffster

Your money in the mattress is going to take a serious hit

Any money in fixed income investments is going to take a hit. That’s most peoples’ savings. Anybody on a fixed pension is going to take a hit. Government retirees, union retirees, social security etc. have pensions indexed to the cost of living. That’s Obama’s constituency, and the people with savings and investments, and corporate retirees are not. If you owe money, or have an inflation protected income, you’re OK. If you saved anything, so sorry, out of luck.

177 Dianna  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:06:01am

re: #146 Killgore Trout

I cut up/didn’t renew all of my credit cards a few months ago. I have only my debit card left.

I envy you. I keep needing my credit cards to handle cash flow issues. It’s the curse of home ownership.

However, I carry a balance only a couple times a year.

178 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:06:02am

re: #170 Creeping Eruption

A bigger problem with that scenario is that each State has its own set of laws governing the insurance industry in that State. You are then looking at some kind of Uniform Act like LLC statutes, or State variants of UCC laws. That takes a while for States to adopt, nothing says they have to, and nothing says their “Uniform Law” will not be different from the State next door.

Barring those issues, it is an interesting idea.

One thing that the EU has going for it - more and more uniformity in laws / regulation that businesses have to deal with. It is starting to make administering a multi-state business there easier than here.

179 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:07:01am

re: #174 Honorary Yooper

Welcome to Autumn. ;-)

Welcome to autumn at 8200 feet in the Rocky Mountains. It’s 27 degrees here, it’s 57 in Denver, just 25 miles east of here.

180 sattv4u2  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:07:32am

re: #169 Walter L. Newton

OT -

OK, now I have almost 2 inches of snow outside. Who ordered this? My first winter in the mountains and it has to start early. Picture perfect. I hate perfect pictures.

Lemme get this straight. You’re in Colorado, you move from a high elevation to a HIGHER elevation, and snow in the middle of September SURPRISED you !?!?!?

//

just teasin’ ya Walter ,, START SHOVELIN’!

181 tradewind  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:07:35am

re: #149 Cannadian Club Akbar

Yippee for Cash for Appliances.
Ditching the old one for a new SubZero, courtesy of Zero.
What could be better?

182 [deleted]  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:07:39am
183 HoosierHoops  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:08:09am

re: #179 Walter L. Newton

Welcome to autumn at 8200 feet in the Rocky Mountains. It’s 27 degrees here, it’s 57 in Denver, just 25 miles east of here.

Well there has to be some downside to living in paradise..
Hi Walter!

184 Kragar  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:08:15am

Ahmadinejad to Deliver ‘Peace’ Message to UN Assembly

Iran’s President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who sparked outrage last week by again calling the Nazi Holocaust a “myth,” will bring a message of peace to the United Nations General Assembly, an aide said.

Ahmadinejad’s “most important message this year is to have peace and friendship with all nations and exchanges that are based on justice and mutual respect,” Mohammad Jafar Mohammadzadeh, an information deputy in the president’s office, told the state-run Islamic Republic News Agency.

The Iranian leader will leave Tehran tomorrow to attend the General Assembly meeting at the UN in New York, the aide said.

185 saberry0530  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:08:17am

re: #155 subsailor68

But once the federal money dried up, so did the sales rally. Now, customers at dealerships like Silko Honda in Raynham are few and far between, and inventory is once again accumulating.

Is that the one on Rte.44?

186 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:08:18am

re: #181 tradewind

Yippee for Cash for Appliances.
Ditching the old one for a new SubZero, courtesy of Zero.
What could be better?

MMMmmm …Subzero. Next thing you will say you have a Wolf range. Drool …

187 Russkilitlover  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:09:12am

re: #155 subsailor68

Morning all! This article really isn’t OT:

Car showrooms quiet after clunkers clamor ends

But once the federal money dried up, so did the sales rally. Now, customers at dealerships like Silko Honda in Raynham are few and far between, and inventory is once again accumulating.

To be filed under “Duh!” Like everyone couldn’t see that coming from a mile away. All those who were in the market for a new car took advantage of the freebie. Now there is no more freebie and no more people in the new car market.

And there are some who are okey-dokey with government running healthcare? Boggles the mind.

188 Kragar  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:09:20am

re: #179 Walter L. Newton

Welcome to autumn at 8200 feet in the Rocky Mountains. It’s 27 degrees here, it’s 57 in Denver, just 25 miles east of here.

We’re told to expect triple digit temps this week here.

189 tradewind  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:09:44am

re: #175 karmic_inquisitor

It’s a huge deal. I couldn’t believe the difference in what the BlueCross/Blue Shield coverage was in the state where my company insurance was held vs my home state’s when I quit and transferred it.
Bet that Obama gets some insurance portability between states, some elimination of preexisting conditions, and not much more, calls it Reform, and declares victory.

190 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:09:56am

re: #182 buzzsawmonkey

I find the rationale behind debit cards mystifying. Nobody—and I mean nobody—goes into my bank account except me.

I agree. I use mine only at the bank’s ATM.
And I and NOT enrolled for “on-line banking”.

191 sattv4u2  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:10:39am

re: #182 buzzsawmonkey

I find the rationale behind debit cards mystifying. Nobody—and I mean nobody—goes into my bank account except me.

Family and I drove from Atlanta to Boston stayed a week and drove back. Hotels, gas, food, entertainment (a couple of touriosty things in both Boston and while on the raod in Virginia) all paid fopr WITHOUT the use of travelers checks, wads of cash or credit cards (meaning the trip was 100% paid for the second it was over)

192 Russkilitlover  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:10:47am

re: #186 Creeping Eruption

MMMmmm …Subzero. Next thing you will say you have a Wolf range. Drool …

Don’t drool over Wolf. They look nice, but have a lot of service issues. Thermadore is beter.

193 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:10:58am

re: #183 HoosierHoops

Well there has to be some downside to living in paradise..
Hi Walter!

Morning.

194 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:11:13am

re: #168 cliffster

better run fast ;)

So far, none of ‘em have noticed

/ … so far

195 Son of the Black Dog  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:11:21am

re: #146 Killgore Trout

I cut up/didn’t renew all of my credit cards a few months ago. I have only my debit card left.

And when you canceled a card, you probably got offered a fantastically low interest rate to keep it open - now that you don’t need them any more - as opposed to the outrageous rate you were paying them when you DID need them.

196 tradewind  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:11:26am

re: #146 Killgore Trout

You should never use your debit card as a debit when you have a choice… always choose the credit option. Much more secure, and not subject to random fees.

197 cliffster  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:11:30am

re: #176 Son of the Black Dog

Any money in fixed income investments is going to take a hit. That’s most peoples’ savings. Anybody on a fixed pension is going to take a hit. Government retirees, union retirees, social security etc. have pensions indexed to the cost of living. That’s Obama’s constituency, and the people with savings and investments, and corporate retirees are not. If you owe money, or have an inflation protected income, you’re OK. If you saved anything, so sorry, out of luck.

I hadn’t thought of that point you make about union and government pensions being tied to cost of living. Certainly explains the willingness to engage in inflationary behaviors The rest of us, we have to bump up the risk in our investments just to stay even.

198 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:11:57am

re: #180 sattv4u2

Lemme get this straight. You’re in Colorado, you move from a high elevation to a HIGHER elevation, and snow in the middle of September SURPRISED you !?!?!?

//

just teasin’ ya Walter ,, START SHOVELIN’!

No, I was just hoping it would never happen. I can dream, can’t I?

199 subsailor68  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:12:22am

re: #185 saberry0530

Hi sayberry. I honestly don’t know. I live in Texas now, and haven’t been in the Boston area in over 30 years. Sorry.

200 drcordell  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:12:25am

OT: I nearly just got into a scuffle with a bunch of LaRouche nutjobs who have their usual table set up outside on Wall St. I took as many handouts as I could from a few of the nuts and then tore them in half before throwing them away in plain sight. Needless to say they were not pleased.

Mostly what surprised me was the fact that several of the people handing out large flyers with Obama depicted as Hitler were black. Does LaRouche have the money to pay people to hand out literature? Or do these idiots really think that Obama could somehow be a sekrit black Nazi?

201 Pianobuff  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:12:31am

re: #155 subsailor68

Morning all! This article really isn’t OT:

Car showrooms quiet after clunkers clamor ends

But once the federal money dried up, so did the sales rally. Now, customers at dealerships like Silko Honda in Raynham are few and far between, and inventory is once again accumulating.

A couple of lizards (3wood must have been one of them!) predicted this. When government tries to emulate private industry, unintended consequences usually follow.

Moral of the story for me is: “This is an example of why I’m not comfortable with government trying to ‘fix’ the economy, and I’m sure not comfortable with government trying to ‘fix’ heath care.”

You may be interested in this fresh-out-of-the-oven Gallup poll:

Americans More Likely to Say Government Doing Too Much

PRINCETON, NJ — Americans are more likely today than in the recent past to believe that government is taking on too much responsibility for solving the nation’s problems and is over-regulating business. New Gallup data show that 57% of Americans say the government is trying to do too many things that should be left to businesses and individuals, and 45% say there is too much government regulation of business. Both reflect the highest such readings in more than a decade.

More at the link.

202 sattv4u2  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:12:53am

re: #198 Walter L. Newton

No, I was just hoping it would never happen. I can dream be delusional, can’t I?

ftfy

203 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:12:57am

re: #192 Russkilitlover

Don’t drool over Wolf. They look nice, but have a lot of service issues. Thermadore is beter.

I’ll give you that, but from my lowly GE Appliance perspective, the difference between a Wolf and a Thermadore is like the difference between Rolls and a Bentley.

204 VioletTiger  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:13:12am

re: #4 Spenser (with an S)

Where is 3wood? I miss his analysis. I need a job and would love for this to be true, but when does the commercial real estate crisis/bailout happen? And then credit cards and then student loans?

/worried


Funny, I was just thinking about him this morning as I mulled over my daughter’s college fund. Not sure if I cash out now, or wait to see if things come up more.

205 tradewind  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:13:26am

re: #186 Creeping Eruption

No, just need a built in. The Viking/Wolf ranges have too many issues for me, and Consumer Reports says that unless you’re an actual professional chef, the pro model Kenmore/GE/Thermadore etc models are a better idea. My kenmore dual fuel does all that stuff and it cost thousands less.

206 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:13:36am

re: #196 tradewind

You should never use your debit card as a debit when you have a choice… always choose the credit option. Much more secure, and not subject to random fees.

I always use the credit option.

207 debutaunt  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:14:34am

re: #194 pre-Boomer Marine brat

So far, none of ‘em have noticed

/ … so far

Haven’t you noticed all the delicate, feminine grumbling noises?

208 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:14:54am

re: #182 buzzsawmonkey

I find the rationale behind debit cards mystifying. Nobody—and I mean nobody—goes into my bank account except me.

Fortunately, my credit union honors my request to supply an ATM card, not a debit card, even though they promise to cover any losses due to a stolen debit card.
The problem is, if someone steals my ATM card, they need my PIN. No PIN, no money. I get a new card; it is inconvenient, but no great loss.
If someone steals my credit card, I report it, dispute charges, and spend some time dealing with it, but legally, I’m only out $50, if the bank doesn’t cover that (and most do).
If someone steals my debit card, checks bounce; previously scheduled electronic payments fail; etc, until it is corrected.
Those companies then charge me late fees, bounced check fees, and can increase interest rates or have other penalties. Insurance companies could cancel coverage, requiring me to go through hoops to get it re-instated. (Try finding a human authorized to make a decision nowadays.)
A lot of trouble, even if the bank covers my financial loss, they won’t pay me for my time fixing the problem.

So I stick with ATM and credit cards.

209 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:14:59am

re: #200 drcordell

I took as many handouts as I could from a few of the nuts and then tore them in half before throwing them away in plain sight. Needless to say they were not pleased.

Upding. You can use it.

210 tradewind  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:15:05am

re: #179 Walter L. Newton

You must be close to Dillon. Used to go to my inlaws’ ski place there and always got altitude sickness if I didn’t stay in DEN the first night.

211 [deleted]  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:15:57am
212 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:16:01am

re: #184 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Ahmadinejad to Deliver ‘Peace’ Message to UN AssemblyAhmadinejad’s “most important message this year is to have peace and friendship with all nations


Someone should call him on it, and insist he have peace and friendship with Israel.

213 Irish Rose  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:16:06am

Bullshit.
The recession will be over when the unemployed go back to work… and not until.

214 sattv4u2  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:16:11am

re: #209 karmic_inquisitor

Upding. You can use it.

a “sympathy” ding?

//

215 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:16:24am

re: #207 debutaunt

Haven’t you noticed all the delicate, feminine grumbling noises?

*quietly padding off in my stocking feet, one eye over my shoulder*

216 Creeping Eruption  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:16:41am

re: #205 tradewind

No, just need a built in. The Viking/Wolf ranges have too many issues for me, and Consumer Reports says that unless you’re an actual professional chef, the pro model Kenmore/GE/Thermadore etc models are a better idea. My kenmore dual fuel does all that stuff and it cost thousands less.

I went with GE Profile all around and have been happy thus far except for the most bizarre thing: We went on vacation for 10 days and came back to find safety glass all over the kitchen floor in front of the oven. Somehow, the middle pane (of three) shattered, on its own, while we were away. It was sunder warranty so not problem. Weird.

217 schlagerman  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:16:43am

re: #195 Son of the Black Dog

That’s exactly what happened when we canceled one of our credit cards. We currently have a rate of 3.5% on our outstanding balance. However, if we use it for anything, the rate skyrockets to something like 15%. Luckily we don’t need to use it.

218 drcordell  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:17:02am

re: #214 sattv4u2

a “sympathy” ding?

//

Sympathy for the devil?

/

219 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:18:12am

re: #190 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I agree. I use mine only at the bank’s ATM.
And I and NOT enrolled for “on-line banking”.

I love their online banking, and actually have found their customer service excellent the one time I had a problem.
It is very nice being able to schedule mortgage payments and let the bank automatically send them out, and to not have to write checks, and hope they arrive on time.

But I don’t like having other companies authorized to withdraw money. I did that with car insurance, but I only do that rarely.

220 Son of the Black Dog  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:18:36am

re: #170 Creeping Eruption

A bigger problem with that scenario is that each State has its own set of laws governing the insurance industry in that State. You are then looking at some kind of Uniform Act like LLC statutes, or State variants of UCC laws. That takes a while for States to adopt, nothing says they have to, and nothing says their “Uniform Law” will not be different from the State next door.

Barring those issues, it is an interesting idea.

The insurance sales across state lines area is one area where the interstate commerce clause would really be appropriate. (Unlike many other areas where it has been applied.)

221 saberry0530  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:18:37am

re: #199 subsailor68

Hi sayberry. I honestly don’t know. I live in Texas now, and haven’t been in the Boston area in over 30 years. Sorry.

Bummer! Dads house is just down the road from there. He’s a car guy, I’ll have him check on the way home today. He turns 73 in Feb. and still won’t retire… Puts in 40+ hours every week.

222 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:19:07am

re: #213 Irish Rose

Bullshit.
The recession will be over when the unemployed go back to work… and not until.

Thank you for that. No kidding.

223 sattv4u2  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:20:19am

re: #211 buzzsawmonkey

Sounds groovy. But you could have done the same thing by paying off the credit card charges the moment you received them.


I do that whenever I do have to use a CC.

On a trip like we took (which was on the heels of two + weeks at the beach) it helps my wife “see” exactly where we are moneywise. She has to deduct the debit out of our check register right then and there.

a debit card authorizes anyone you give it to to go rattling around inside your actual bank account to get the money.

Not the way my bank/ debit card works. I get an e-mail each time anyone “looks” into my account, even if it is to go in and get an authorized payment

224 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:21:24am

re: #219 Kosh’s Shadow

I love their online banking, and actually have found their customer service excellent the one time I had a problem.
It is very nice being able to schedule mortgage payments and let the bank automatically send them out, and to not have to write checks, and hope they arrive on time.

But I don’t like having other companies authorized to withdraw money. I did that with car insurance, but I only do that rarely.

I have two things set up on auto-pay, and pay credit cards and utilities over the Web. However, I keep access restricted into my checking account. See Buzz’s #211 for the gist of the reason.

225 Fenway_Nation  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:21:38am

Iowa Interstate Railway placed an order for four additional GEVO ES44AC locomotives from General Electric this month.

I chalk this up to Iowa Interstate taking advantage in a lull in manufacturing (not to mention their traffic base being a subsidized commodity like ethanol) moreso than I do a full-fledged economic recovery.

Iowa Interstate purchased 12 ES44ACs from GE last year, so this purchase would bring their tally of brand-new locomotives to 14.

226 [deleted]  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:22:04am
227 lostlakehiker  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:22:25am

re: #6 Fenway_Nation

Is this still supposed to be a ‘jobless recovery’? Hard to be optimistic when you’re one of the jobless…

Most of the time, a recovery begins with companies asking their existing workers to put in more hours. This is a decision that can be reversed in a moment if it turns out to be a mistake.

Another thing to keep in mind is that a bust happens when unhealthy economic conditions come to light and people bail. Thus, too much money was going into housing, and credit was flowing to borrowers who had no real prospect of paying off their loans. The jobs in those sectors were not producing real value commensurate with the pay the workers were getting. Such jobs are gone forever, and while that’s a bad thing for the individual who lost that job, it’s good for the overall economy. For an analogy, imagine a carpenter building a house on a sandspit. The next big storm will wash it away. The wood, glue, shingles, and labor will ultimately all be wasted.

So there’s a period of readjustment while workers retrain and companies find things to do that are genuinely useful. (The lumber goes to furniture in houses built on solid land; the carpenter builds new schools rather than houses.)

Joseph Schumpeter had this phrase ‘creative destruction’. True improvements in an economy require retasking workers, abandoning equipment that is still in working order but has been superseded, and so forth.

228 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:23:41am

re: #189 tradewind

It’s a huge deal. I couldn’t believe the difference in what the BlueCross/Blue Shield coverage was in the state where my company insurance was held vs my home state’s when I quit and transferred it.
Bet that Obama gets some insurance portability between states, some elimination of preexisting conditions, and not much more, calls it Reform, and declares victory.

People assume Blue Cross / Blue Shield is one multi state insurer. It isn’t. Each state has its own organization. The brand is essentially a franchise and in some states the state Blue Cross entity essentially competes with state Blue Shield entity. Within the industry they are collectively referred to as “the Blues” IIRC.

229 jpkoch  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:24:51am

Coming out the same day was a Labor Department report that said 42 of the 50 states had net job losses for the month of August. Even Texas wasn’t immune.

230 Dianna  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:25:09am

re: #200 drcordell

LaRouche has a surprisingly loyal following among young blacks. I don’t know what to say, beyond that.

231 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:25:38am

bbl

232 reloadingisnotahobby  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:26:20am

“Reccesion is Bottoming Out”!
Must be why our collectives asses are hurting!

233 rwdflynavy  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:33:33am

I have to laugh about the dryer story. Reminds me of my FIL and I helping my SIL’s husband fix their dryer. It was from the 60s, over 30 years old. My SIL husband made very good money and could have easily replaced the old dryer, but instead we changed out the heating coil.

Anyway, this dryer wasn’t actually called a dryer, it was a Permanent Press Clothes Conditioner.

Always cracked me up.

234 sattv4u2  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:34:42am

re: #229 jpkoch

Coming out the same day was a Labor Department report that said 42 of the 50 states had net job losses for the month of August. Even Texas wasn’t immune.

Job losses will continue till end of year, but will be smaller each month. lLook for the upswing to start March/ April 2010

235 drcordell  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:41:01am

re: #230 Dianna

LaRouche has a surprisingly loyal following among young blacks. I don’t know what to say, beyond that.

Huh, I hadn’t ever seen that before. Weird. It’s not the political affiliation that’s surprising, just the seeming embrace of Nazi imagery.

236 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 10:43:56am

re: #224 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I have two things set up on auto-pay, and pay credit cards and utilities over the Web. However, I keep access restricted into my checking account. See Buzz’s #211 for the gist of the reason.

Yes. The online banking lets me authorize payments; it doesn’t give the payee authorization to access my account. The only company I’ve allowed is car insurance, because they give a discount for doing so, and being regulated, I have more of a chance of doing something if they really screw up.

237 Rexatosis  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:08:08am

It takes two consecutive quarters of economic growth for the recession to be over. If one factors out the huge stimulus pump of the “cash for clunkers” program (which has huge long-term economic negatives which will probably far outweigh the short-term benefits) these weak growth numbers basically disappear. While I may “hope” for the economy to “change” to a more positive position, cherry-picking economic data and failing to factor in a temporary cash infusion which has long-term negatives for the manufacturing base of the United States (see-Auto Parts) will not change the underlying economic realities of the situation.

238 jpkoch  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 12:43:33pm

re: #234 sattv4u2

I hope you’re correct. There is one big thing that concerns me, and that is the difference between the 1981-1983 recession and the one we are currently in. In 1981, Fed Chair Volker allowed raised interest rates to near 20% in order to wring inflation out of the economy. Inflation in 1981 was over 13%, by 1984 it was down below 5%.

Today, interest rates are kept artificially low. M3 cash supplies however have been running low since April (M3 is the total cash onhand in bank depositis, credit, and other liquid assets). Our currency continues to fall, and at sometime the Fed will have to protect the dollar and raise interest rates. What will happen to the M3 money supply then? It is quite frightening to see this deflationary period in the M3 despite low interest rates and the printing of $2 trillion in bank notes by the Treasury.

Something is not quite right.

239 starsfan914  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 1:29:42pm

the “recession” MAY be almost over—but until hiring and job creation picks up it is pretty meaningless to me.

240 harpsicon  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 2:00:51pm

re: #145 karmic_inquisitor

What would help save money in the economy vis-a-vis health insurance is to allow plans that are multistate, eliminate group coverage discounts and perhaps eliminating coverage as an employment benefit (I know that last suggestion is radical and scary).

If health insurance companies had to sell to individuals but could do it in any state you would see so many new types of plans come onto the market that catastrophic coverage would be cheap for young people and families could get coverage that fit their own risk profile, saving money by buying high deductible policies.

As for selling, the internet gives insurance companies a scalable means of selling the policies without having to hire more commissioned reps (who now sell the group plans - part of the reason for group discounts is the commissions get spread over more heads).

A million up-dings.

The problem is costs. The current bills do nothing about costs except to freeze them at very high levels, or maybe even increase them.

Until people have to see something on the right side of the menu, and it’s their own money, more or less, there’s no way out of this.

I have catastrophic for my family. It’s cheap. I ask questions about everything else, and you’d be amazed how easy it is to save. (And having insurance, even really cheap insurance, is very important, since you get all kinds of negotiated discounts).

If you need blood work, as we all do each year after a while, there’s an internet site called DirectLabs.com which will sell you a requisition for the same tests that cost $500 at the MD for about $150. They’re for profit, so I assume that everybody involved makes money. Just not too much of MY money.

Long live capitalism!

241 jordash1212  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 2:15:57pm

Meanwhile the exchange rate of NIS to USD keeps going down and down and down…

242 scrubjay  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 3:08:18pm

As the Brooklyn Dodgers said, “Wait till next year!” When all the public borrowing kicks in and drys up the private capital market that is when the real damage to the US economy begins. Instead of real jobs in productive enterprises the money will be dissipated in dead-end, make-work jobs accomplishing nothing. The recession will be back with a vengeance.

243 William  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 5:51:51pm

The Fed and “analyst” happy talk is just that — happy talk.

Consider the magnitude of the now-busted real estate bubble, the fact that countless more Alt-A and Prime mortgages (it’s a myth this was a “subprime” crisis) are resetting in 2009 and 2010, and that fully 1/2 of Americans are literally 30 days away from insolvency.

We’re nowhere near a recovery.

244 EE  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 5:52:01pm

The vast bulk of the stimulus money has not been spent yet. Only about 10%? has been spent. This poses the danger that when the economy picks up and needs to be damped down, the stimulus will kick in and cause inflation, an irrational exhuberance, and a gigantic “bubble”. The politicians seeking office may like that, but it isn’t good for the economy to have wild swings like that. Karl Marx predicted really wild swings of the economy would be our ruin, and this mistimed “stimulus” threatens to exacerbate the normal ups and downs of the economy. This is making a roller coaster ride that will be more severe than is normally the case, with a bubble that could approximate what happened before The Great Depression. Why not cancel the “stimulus” before the damage gets done? Where are the cool heads that need to take a long-range view of what is being done?

245 William  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:17:00pm

re: #234 sattv4u2

Job losses will continue till end of year, but will be smaller each month. lLook for the upswing to start March/ April 2010

Upswing of what? Our high-paying jobs are shipped to India en masse (along with business and technological know-how).

Our manufacturing base is gone, currently residing in China and similar locales.

There’s no “next big thing” to lead us out of this mess, and most folks have zero savings and a mountain of debt.

Residential mortgage defaults have skyrocketed (appearing nearly vertical when graphed).

Upswing?

246 Korla Pundit  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:22:52pm

If the health care bill is defeated, you can expect a sudden upsurge in the economy, similar to when HillaryCare was stopped in its tracks. Big Pharma holds back on a lot of investment when the future of non-government-controlled medicine is put in doubt. And this has a huge trickle down effect including research and development, the advertising industry, the publishing industry, etc, etc.

When the big sigh of relief is heard, then the dollars start to flow again. My company almost went belly up during the Hillary scare. It is struggling again now under the threat of ObamaCare. A lot of competitors in the same market have already shuttered their offices.

But if a stake can be finally be driven into the heart of a U.S. version of the NHS, there will be phones ringing off the hooks at the employment agencies and headhunters. Some of my former coworkers may get their jobs back yet.

247 Korla Pundit  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 7:24:52pm

However, if the health care bill and the cap-and-trade bill and stimulus II the sequel (this time, it’s personal) see Obama’s desk, then kiss the economy good-bye for at least a few decades.

248 INFDL  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:27:56pm

Horseshit. Caps rates for commercial real estate in Q2 across all asset classes hit over 40 basis points. That’s one quarter. If you know what I’m talking about, you know we’re in deep shit. No two ways about it. Love to hit the happy parade with you, Charles, but count me out.

249 INFDL  Mon, Sep 21, 2009 11:31:15pm

Oh, and this is a classic fool’s recovery too. The ‘indices’ are not geared towards major turbulance.


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