Former Human Rights Watch Chairman Notices Things Have Gone Awry

Middle East • Views: 3,169

Robert Bernstein, a former chairman of Human Rights Watch, had an extraordinary op-ed in the New York Times yesterday, blasting his former organization for its overwhelming bias against the state of Israel: Rights Watchdog, Lost in the Mideast.

AS the founder of Human Rights Watch, its active chairman for 20 years and now founding chairman emeritus, I must do something that I never anticipated: I must publicly join the group’s critics. Human Rights Watch had as its original mission to pry open closed societies, advocate basic freedoms and support dissenters. But recently it has been issuing reports on the Israeli-Arab conflict that are helping those who wish to turn Israel into a pariah state.

At Human Rights Watch, we always recognized that open, democratic societies have faults and commit abuses. But we saw that they have the ability to correct them — through vigorous public debate, an adversarial press and many other mechanisms that encourage reform.

That is why we sought to draw a sharp line between the democratic and nondemocratic worlds, in an effort to create clarity in human rights. We wanted to prevent the Soviet Union and its followers from playing a moral equivalence game with the West and to encourage liberalization by drawing attention to dissidents like Andrei Sakharov, Natan Sharansky and those in the Soviet gulag — and the millions in China’s laogai, or labor camps.

When I stepped aside in 1998, Human Rights Watch was active in 70 countries, most of them closed societies. Now the organization, with increasing frequency, casts aside its important distinction between open and closed societies.

Nowhere is this more evident than in its work in the Middle East. The region is populated by authoritarian regimes with appalling human rights records. Yet in recent years Human Rights Watch has written far more condemnations of Israel for violations of international law than of any other country in the region.

Not just in recent years, Robert. This has been going on for a long, long time. But it’s good to see people like you finally waking up and noticing it.

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251 comments
1 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 8:39:02pm

no flying pig?

2 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 8:40:46pm

I'm glad to see someone from those circles finally saying it.

3 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 8:41:09pm

oh great i get the first post for my first time,and it's"no flying pig?"

i'm gonna go pout for a little while.i suk.

4 Killgore Trout  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 8:43:21pm
But how does Human Rights Watch know that these laws have been violated? In Gaza and elsewhere where there is no access to the battlefield or to the military and political leaders who make strategic decisions, it is extremely difficult to make definitive judgments about war crimes. Reporting often relies on witnesses whose stories cannot be verified and who may testify for political advantage or because they fear retaliation from their own rulers. Significantly, Col. Richard Kemp, the former commander of British forces in Afghanistan and an expert on warfare, has said that the Israel Defense Forces in Gaza “did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone than any other army in the history of warfare.”

Only by returning to its founding mission and the spirit of humility that animated it can Human Rights Watch resurrect itself as a moral force in the Middle East and throughout the world. If it fails to do that, its credibility will be seriously undermined and its important role in the world significantly diminished.


Nice.

5 Mich-again  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 8:45:40pm

From HRW website..

Mr. Bernstein brought his concerns about our work on Israel to a full meeting of the Human Rights Watch Board of Directors in April. The board unanimously rejected his view that Human Rights Watch should report only on closed societies, and expressed its full support for the organization's work.

That is a strawman argument. Here is what Bernstein said..

When I stepped aside in 1998, Human Rights Watch was active in 70 countries, most of them closed societies. Now the organization, with increasing frequency, casts aside its important distinction between open and closed societies.

So did he really advocate reporting only from closed societies? I doubt that.

6 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 8:48:13pm

Finally! Twice in one day, the fine British officer and now this guy.

7 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 8:50:10pm

sadly it seems much damage has been done already.When ever the subject of Israel comes up at work,I'm usually in the minority defending her.I hear the usual non-sense(some with a healthy dose of anti-semitism)which i can usually parry quite easily(thanks LGF)But, many of these human rights ngo's have been carrying arab water for far too long.

8 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 8:51:19pm

re: #5 Mich-again

I think you miss an important point. Closed societies keep their abuses secret easily. Open societies have the public reaction to provide some check and balance.

9 Mich-again  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 8:51:37pm

".. So let me add some additional fuel to the fire."

Sarah Leah Whitson has been HRW's Middle East Director for five years. Ms. Whitson was a classmate of Barack Obama at Harvard Law School, and served on the board of the Armenian Bar Association. According to her bio on HRW's website, "before joining Human Rights Watch, Whitson worked as an attorney in New York for Goldman, Sachs & Co. and Cleary, Gottlieb, Steen & Hamilton."

What the official bio doesn't tell you is that Whitson was an active
member of the New York chapter of the American-Arab Antidiscrimination
Committee. She had served on the Steering Committee (source: ADC
Times, Apr 30, 2002). When HRW hired her, she was serving a two-year
term on the new Board of Directors, which replaced the Steering
Committee (Source: ADC Times, Jan. 31, 2004).

10 Velvet Elvis  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 8:53:23pm

I've always tried to take my Israel/Palestine news from as many sources as I can find because NOBODY is without bias one way or the other in this. I never kept HRW is particularly high regard to begin with. At least in recent yearrs they wore their bias on their sleeve so you could tell.

11 Kronocide  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 8:56:16pm

Great News! It's not a GOP FUBAR or St Rush Emperor Has No Clothes thread.

Oh, and people realize there's something wrong with the bias against Israel.

12 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 8:58:00pm

re: #11 BigPapa

This thread need not be PHd mud wrestling as we saw earlier. I hope.

13 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 8:59:03pm

re: #11 BigPapa

Saw your chart. We scored similar results.

14 Kronocide  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 8:59:28pm

re: #12 Rightwingconspirator

This thread need not be PHd mud wrestling as we saw earlier. I hope.

LOL. Didn't see that, was out committing capitalism. But let me take a wild guess... AGW LVQ AB... ?

15 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 8:59:55pm

re: #14 BigPapa

Yup.

16 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:00:13pm

re: #11 BigPapa

Great News! It's not a GOP FUBAR or St Rush Emperor Has No Clothes thread.

Oh, and people realize there's something wrong with the bias against Israel.

Charles has been lowering the boom on the left when the left deserves. He has always done that.

17 J.S.  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:01:55pm

It's great that the founder of Human Rights Watch recognizes what's going on, but I fear it's too little, too late...(The United Nations does precisely the same thing, btw, -- right now the UN has an individual investigating Canada's human rights record with respect to Natives/Aboriginals...said UN individual would never, ever dare set foot in Iran, or North Korea, etc.)

18 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:03:17pm

re: #17 J.S.

I appreciate their attention to capitol punishment. But to reach back a century is really non productive. It pays to spend more time looking ahead than back.

19 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:03:24pm

re: #17 J.S.

human rights violations in lil'kims workers paradise???whats the world coming to?

20 Kronocide  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:03:29pm

What's ironic about this: the Palestinians have long been accused of 'never missing an opportunity to miss an opportunity.'

Now St Rushbo and the GOP seem to never miss an opportunity to stop the crazy train, thereby missing an opportunity to stop.

21 wee fury  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:04:21pm

This is good news.

22 Kronocide  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:04:49pm

re: #12 Rightwingconspirator

This thread need not be PHd mud wrestling as we saw earlier. I hope.

That had to settle a moment, but it's getting funnier. Yours? If so you should be proud of that gem.

23 Mich-again  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:04:54pm

re: #18 Rightwingconspirator

Did you mean: capital punishment

24 pdc_lgf  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:05:05pm

re: #21 wee fury

Just curious. Do you folks read the Israeli press?

25 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:05:12pm

re: #20 BigPapa

Apparently they only seek to clean other peoples houses.

26 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:06:05pm

re: #20 BigPapa

they're apparently convinced that the reason they lost the last election,is that mccain wasn't spouting any crazy non-sense.I'm sure they'll make up for that come next election.

27 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:06:12pm

re: #24 pdc_lgf

Al Jewzeera? Just kidding there BTW
I read Haaretz sometimes.

28 Charles Johnson  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:07:25pm

We just had an absolutely classic sock puppet outing at the end of this thread:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

29 Kronocide  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:10:14pm

BUSTED!!! LOL.

30 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:10:41pm

ROFL

31 Digital Display  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:11:00pm

No No No!
I pressed some button on my laptop and it went into Sleep mode...
No...Don't do it..What did I push?
You can't make wedding plans on a Microsoft site without it asking you...Are you Sure? I mean everything is 'Are you sure'? But not sleep mode..Heck no..I press some button and it is see you later jack...
So..Finally I'm back...I'm touching the keyboard with a pure gingerness a very light touch..expecting the worse with my fingertips...
So..What what are we talking about? Are you Sure?

32 wee fury  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:11:39pm

re: #24 pdc_lgf

I read the Jerusalem Post.

33 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:11:49pm

re: #31 HoosierHoops

Vista or 7?

34 J.S.  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:12:05pm

re: #19 Boondock St. Bender

(Actually, Native Americans living on or off reserve in Canada -- many times live in abject squalor == if you travel north, you'll see living conditions reminiscent of the 19th century...rampant alcohol abuse, high-school dropouts, illiterates, ramshackle dilapidated housing -- much of it without indoor toilets or running water -- kids doing solvent sniffing -- drunken brawls, wife abuse, etc., the list of woes goes on and on...anyway, the "problem" though is that, it isn't just the government's fault -- there are many, many factors operating...with no simple, quick-fix solutions at hand...and playing on the "Oh, we're the victims! the victims!" is not empowering -- it further serves, imo, to turn them into infants...)

35 jaunte  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:13:53pm

Goodnight all.
This is cool: Saturn at equinox

36 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:14:19pm

re: #34 J.S.

Nice cat avatar. Is HRW about their current situation or way back 100 years? Coping skills matter. Oddly enough California tribes are doing well of gambling money. Ironic as can be.

37 bosforus  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:14:19pm

re: #35 jaunte

Goodnight all.
This is cool: Saturn at equinox

I can see my house!

38 pdc_lgf  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:15:37pm

re: #27 Rightwingconspirator

Clever. Well done.

The thing is a total mess - according to Haaretz and J. Post. I'm fairly bent out of shape over this whole thing. I mean the endless singling out of Israel.

It's fairly clear that there were abuses. Like in any war. I think the notion of war-crimes is disingenuous at best. But me thinking that doesn't change anything. Israel is in a very, very tight spot right now.

39 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:16:15pm

Getting tired going to bed. What a night. I think I got more understanding of the culture here tonight than the past year. Good night all.

40 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:17:50pm

re: #6 Rightwingconspirator

Finally! Twice in one day, the fine British officer and now this guy.

Maybe, as the craziness gets worse, more people will begin to speak out. Lefty equivalents of Charles.

Hey, this hope for change stuff feels kind of nice!

41 J.S.  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:18:30pm

re: #36 Rightwingconspirator

HRW is concerned about native living conditions in today's Canada. (If natives live off reserve -- they'll typically wind up in urban slums, unemployed, etc.) Some reserves in Canada have also gone the gambling route and there are others (in Ontario) who have also made small fortunes (but some of it has involved illegal smuggling...selling cigarettes, etc.)

42 pdc_lgf  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:19:30pm

re: #40 SanFranciscoZionist

Can you give me a rough sense of who or what you consider a lefty?

43 Digital Display  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:20:29pm

re: #33 Rightwingconspirator

Vista or 7?

LOL
I'm running XP on a Dell in the Den...I love windows 7! We are upgrading at work..My colleagues are really into it...I really like it...My machines are going 7 as soon as the Company says go for it...Finally a rock solid code base with no way any program enters the Kernal for any reason at Ring one for security..
Crap..Mac has being doing this for years...Their code base built on pure C and lockdown kernals is a thing of beauty...

44 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:23:06pm

re: #24 pdc_lgf

Just curious. Do you folks read the Israeli press?

I don't know who 'you folks' is, but I try to look at the JPost and Haaretz in English, plus YNet. Also some Israeli bloggers. My Hebrew is not good enough to read the Hebrew-language press. Sometimes if there is an important article, a blogger will summarize it.

I haven't been following the news so much lately, been busy with school starting.

45 pdc_lgf  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:26:07pm

re: #44 SanFranciscoZionist

It was just anyone who cared to answer. I'm trying to follow things in the English online Israeli press. Meaning, J. Post, Haaretz, mainly. It seems to me that things over there suck bigtime. There's a sense of futility and desperation.

46 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:26:23pm

re: #42 pdc_lgf

Can you give me a rough sense of who or what you consider a lefty?

Errr...farther to the left than me? It depends on the context.

Clearer question?

47 pdc_lgf  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:26:53pm

re: #46 SanFranciscoZionist

Saul Alinsky?

48 Velvet Elvis  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:27:07pm

re: #43 HoosierHoops

LOL
I'm running XP on a Dell in the Den...I love windows 7! We are upgrading at work..My colleagues are really into it...I really like it...My machines are going 7 as soon as the Company says go for it...Finally a rock solid code base with no way any program enters the Kernal for any reason at Ring one for security..
Crap..Mac has being doing this for years...Their code base built on pure C and lockdown kernals is a thing of beauty...

I got it running under VirtualBox on a debian host. It might be the most tolerable product microsoft has ever put out, but I'd still take a well configured linux box or a mac over it.

49 pdc_lgf  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:28:11pm

re: #46 SanFranciscoZionist

David Brooks?

50 Velvet Elvis  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:28:19pm

re: #47 pdc_lgf

Saul Alinsky?

There's a difference between plain old leftists and radicals you know.

51 pdc_lgf  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:28:47pm

re: #46 SanFranciscoZionist

David Brooks?

52 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:29:28pm

re: #45 pdc_lgf

It was just anyone who cared to answer. I'm trying to follow things in the English online Israeli press. Meaning, J. Post, Haaretz, mainly. It seems to me that things over there suck bigtime. There's a sense of futility and desperation.

People are getting tired. The Gaza withdrawal was hard on people, and it didn't get them much, although I still believe Sharon knew what he was doing when he initiated it.

There are few viable solutions right now, and a lot of stress.

53 Bagua  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:29:43pm

re: #45 pdc_lgf

It was just anyone who cared to answer. I'm trying to follow things in the English online Israeli press. Meaning, J. Post, Haaretz, mainly. It seems to me that things over there suck bigtime. There's a sense of futility and desperation.

Keep in mind that Haaretz is in essence and anti-Israel site.

54 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:30:17pm

re: #47 pdc_lgf

Saul Alinsky?

I suppose so, although honestly I only heard of him through conservatives, here. Yes. Lefty.

55 pdc_lgf  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:30:19pm

OK. Whether I know or otherwise, what's your take on Alinsky? Brooks?

56 pdc_lgf  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:30:55pm

re: #53 Bagua

How so?

57 bosforus  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:31:09pm

Not sure which thread you're hanging out in, Charles but I'll just copy and paste this here as well.

Charles - not to bog down the good day you're having with a bug/tech question but...

I notice that the "Web site:" bug is still around. I seem to remember even last summer ('08) talk of this bug. Back then you said you were unable to duplicate the bug and therefore weren't able to fix it.

Here is how I can make the bug happen every time.
First off - I am logged in with Firefox 3.0.14 with Vista. If I click a user's avatar here in the comments section I am shown their profile. Clicking their "Web Site URL:" opens a new tab and takes me to that site. I close the new tab. Go back to my original tab and refresh. Ta-da, my "Web site:" above the comment input box I'm currently typing in and below the "Email:" input box has now been changed to the other lizard's "Web Site URL:". In my limited web developing experience I would say it looks like a session variable issue.

Hope that helps!

58 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:32:16pm

re: #51 pdc_lgf

David Brooks?

Not A Lefty.

Medea Benjamin is.
Peggy Noonan isn't.

59 [deleted]  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:33:37pm
60 bosforus  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:35:27pm

re: #59 MikeySDCA

With all due respect, you have an old version of FF. Mine is 3.5.3.

Ha ha, I was using that for about a day and it was crashing on me every couple of minutes so I went back to this one. I think 3.5.3 might not jive with one or more of my add-ons and I haven't taken the time to figure out which.

61 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:36:41pm

re: #42 pdc_lgf

Can you give me a rough sense of who or what you consider a lefty?

Noam Chomsky
Howard Zinn
Cynthia McKinny
John Pilger
Robert Fisk and anyone else who blames terrorism and aggression on the "dire effects of American bombing."
Anyone who wails about the "plight of the Palestinians" or the "apartheid wall."
That fat doofus with the scraggly beard who holds forth to a crowd of other losers at the Starbuck's down the street. (Yeah, you probably don't know him but he has analogs at every cow college and liberal arts diploma mill in the country.)

62 [deleted]  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:37:04pm
63 Bagua  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:39:08pm

re: #56 pdc_lgf

How so?

They maintain a site that makes constant unfair and egregious attacks on Israel that go far beyond a simple leftest agenda like the rest of Israeli press. They also allow their comment section to include amazing hatred, bias and anti-Semitism. They are apparently trying to appeal to European attitudes and beliefs. A far more balanced and fair coverage of Israel can be found on Al-Jazeera.

64 Charles Johnson  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:39:52pm

A PERFECT illustration of a point I've made several times -- that climate change deniers have a lot in common with creationists. In a previous thread, "Tom on the rez" was spewing anti-AGW talking points like crazy. When I checked his account, it turned out he had been previously banned after having an abusive meltdown -- over creationism!

And not only that, he was also a defender of the fascist Belgian party Vlaams Belang.

Creationism freakout (combined with the same anti-AGW talking points he tried to float in that thread - and he even signed his new sock puppet name to it):

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Defending the fascist Vlaams Belang:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

65 bosforus  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:39:55pm

re: #62 MikeySDCA

Good point. I've lost a couple of good add-ons as FF has changed.

One of my favorite add-on has been "Tamper Data" which allows a user to intercept variables sent by Flash and change them. It's fun to hack high scores lists. I did it twice then got bored with it.

66 pdc_lgf  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:40:26pm

re: #58 SanFranciscoZionist

OK. Thanks. I'm trying to find the baseline, so to speak. That's all.

I'm curious about the rabid piling onto LGF generally and Mr. C particularly. I'm equally curious about the rather strange set of alliances.

Is Michelle Malkin considered favorably in the LGF universe of discourse? I understand of course that there are a diversity of views here.

I'm not nominating you spokesperson. I just need to start somewhere.

67 Digital Display  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:41:00pm

re: #48 Conservative Moonbat

I got it running under VirtualBox on a debian host. It might be the most tolerable product microsoft has ever put out, but I'd still take a well configured linux box or a mac over it.

The coolest thing is the transluciennt programs open menu..It floats over the screen and when you scroll the mouse over each program it opens in another window.. If you are running dual monitors you can scroll over your menu and open anything in the other monitor.. It is really cool...Everybody went dual cores a few years ago.I predict dual monitors are going to blow up...It is really cool with windows now..
/ Full disclosure...No one has paid me or send me any products for this post..
But if you would like to..I will blue my nic..
*wink*

68 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:41:25pm

re: #61 Shiplord Kirel

I would have said "anyone who takes a papier-mache tank to a demonstration" but the rightwing tea-party mob could decide to copy that one, just as they are now showing up with lefty-style giant puppets. The tea-partyists are more likely to have a real tank anyway.

69 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:41:32pm

re: #58 SanFranciscoZionist

Not A Lefty.

Medea Benjamin is.
Peggy Noonan isn't.

But most importantly, you must realize, I am the Center. People to the left of me are Commies. People to the right of me are Fascists.

People more religious than I are fanatics. People less religious than I are godless heathens.

People more intellectual than I are eggheads. People less intellectual than I are hicks.

I Am The Very Model Of A Modern Young American (even if I am past thirty-five)

/ta daaa

//oh, and Alice Walker is a leftist. Getrude Himmelfarb is not. I don't know how to categorize Garrison Keillor. He may be a normal person like me.

70 pdc_lgf  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:41:43pm

re: #63 Bagua

If what you are seeing is what I'm seeing, it's nothing new. The Israeli press is pretty wild.

71 Charles Johnson  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:42:57pm

re: #66 pdc_lgf

Is Michelle Malkin considered favorably in the LGF universe of discourse?

Not by me.

72 pdc_lgf  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:43:05pm

re: #69 SanFranciscoZionist

Thanks for the clarification. I thought the Center was in Kansas.

73 freetoken  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:43:26pm

re: #66 pdc_lgf

Is Michelle Malkin considered favorably in the LGF universe of discourse?

Oh... we Ⓛ Ⓞ Ⓥ Ⓔ MM here...

/

74 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:43:48pm

re: #69 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't know how to categorize Garrison Keillor. He may be a normal person like me.

You're joking! Of all the public personalities in the world, I would choose Keillor as the one most likely to actually be a space alien.

75 Bagua  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:44:00pm

re: #70 pdc_lgf

If what you are seeing is what I'm seeing, it's nothing new. The Israeli press is pretty wild.

Yes, nothing new. I wrote Haaretz off as a hate site ages ago, and am much happier as a result of not reading their tripe. If I want standard liberal biased news without the hate I read the JPost.

76 avanti  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:44:30pm

re: #64 Charles

A PERFECT illustration of a point I've made several times -- that climate change deniers have a lot in common with creationists. In a previous thread, "Tom on the rez" was spewing anti-AGW talking points like crazy. When I checked his account, it turned out he had been previously banned after having an abusive meltdown -- over creationism!

And not only that, he was also a defender of the fascist Belgian party Vlaams Belang.

Creationism freakout (combined with the same anti-AGW talking points he tried to float in that thread - and he even signed his new sock puppet name to it):

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Defending the fascist Vlaams Belang:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Spoof found on the net:

"Creationist-friendly version of Darwin film released

Following its failure to secure a US distributor, the producers of new film ‘Creation’ about the life of Charles Darwin have released an alternative ‘Creationists’ Cut’ version deemed more suitable for the American market.

In the revised film a new final scene will see Darwin, played by Paul Bettany, wake up and realize that his voyage on The Beagle and development of the theory of evolution was all just a dream. His wife then walks into the bedroom and says ‘Darling, I’ve just found a book that explains why all those animals exist.’

In the next shot, the book falls open and we see that it is the first chapter of Genesis, and the couple decide to go out for a walk on the beach with their new pet dinosaur, which science can’t prove didn’t exist at the time."

77 wee fury  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:44:37pm

re: #69 SanFranciscoZionist

Funny! Oh, and Garrison Keillor is not a normal person.

78 austin_blue  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:44:50pm

re: #64 Charles

A PERFECT illustration of a point I've made several times -- that climate change deniers have a lot in common with creationists. In a previous thread, "Tom on the rez" was spewing anti-AGW talking points like crazy. When I checked his account, it turned out he had been previously banned after having an abusive meltdown -- over creationism!

And not only that, he was also a defender of the fascist Belgian party Vlaams Belang.

Creationism freakout (combined with the same anti-AGW talking points he tried to float in that thread - and he even signed his new sock puppet name to it):

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Defending the fascist Vlaams Belang:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Both groups hate was science says about how the world works. Takes a lot of faith and commitment to say that black is white despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

79 [deleted]  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:45:06pm
80 bosforus  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:45:31pm

re: #79 MikeySDCA

What did that one do?

81 bosforus  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:45:44pm

re: #79 MikeySDCA

Oh wait, duh. Ha ha!

82 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:46:56pm

re: #66 pdc_lgf

OK. Thanks. I'm trying to find the baseline, so to speak. That's all.

I'm curious about the rabid piling onto LGF generally and Mr. C particularly. I'm equally curious about the rather strange set of alliances.

Is Michelle Malkin considered favorably in the LGF universe of discourse? I understand of course that there are a diversity of views here.

I'm not nominating you spokesperson. I just need to start somewhere.

I may not be the best person to establish the baseline with, since I'm a bit to the left of the LFG center aisle. I don't personally have alliances, although on my own blog I have been known to pick on Shmuley Boteach. It's not really political with him. He just drives me nuts.

83 bosforus  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:47:22pm

gotta go, later lizards!

84 austin_blue  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:47:28pm

re: #73 freetoken

Oh... we Ⓛ Ⓞ Ⓥ Ⓔ MM here...

/

The paragon of sane discourse...

85 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:47:31pm

re: #76 avanti

Spoof found on the net:

"Creationist-friendly version of Darwin film released

Following its failure to secure a US distributor, the producers of new film ‘Creation’ about the life of Charles Darwin have released an alternative ‘Creationists’ Cut’ version deemed more suitable for the American market.

In the revised film a new final scene will see Darwin, played by Paul Bettany, wake up and realize that his voyage on The Beagle and development of the theory of evolution was all just a dream. His wife then walks into the bedroom and says ‘Darling, I’ve just found a book that explains why all those animals exist.’

In the next shot, the book falls open and we see that it is the first chapter of Genesis, and the couple decide to go out for a walk on the beach with their new pet dinosaur, which science can’t prove didn’t exist at the time."

LOL! Thanks, avanti I needed that.

86 Bagua  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:47:34pm

re: #67 HoosierHoops

Yep, Windows 7 is a joy. With FF 3.5.3, a quad core CPU and 8 gig of ram, even the longest LGF thread is quick and flawless. Having three monitors is SOP in my lab as well.

87 pdc_lgf  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:48:25pm

re: #82 SanFranciscoZionist

Me too. And my black-hat Orthodox running buddy finds him appalling. R. Boteach is a very annoying dude.

88 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:49:15pm

re: #72 pdc_lgf

Thanks for the clarification. I thought the Center was in Kansas.

Like the country, under Obama, it has moved left.

//drum-set effect

(My grandpa was originally from Kansas...he refused to take his socks off at the beach.)

89 [deleted]  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:49:27pm
90 Guanxi88  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:54:06pm

Ni hao, honcos!

Had a blast in the last thread, and throughout today. Good times - slinging it out fast, furious, and heatedly, with my buddies here.

Nothing to add here, except that I respect this fellow's consistency and sense of ethics.

91 Guanxi88  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:55:36pm

re: #88 SanFranciscoZionist

Like the country, under Obama, it has moved left.

//drum-set effect

(My grandpa was originally from Kansas...he refused to take his socks off at the beach.)

my grandfather waked the beach at hilton head in jacket and tie, and spent most of the afternoon shaking sand outta the cuffs on his trousers.

92 pdc_lgf  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:56:27pm

re: #71 Charles

OK. I've admired this site for a long time - from the outside. I finally got the opportunity to register over the weekend.

I'm probably way, way to the left of almost all here. I just want to put those cards on the table.

The reason why I'm asking is that the folks here are verbally facile in a way I'm just not. I suspect there's a generational divide - I'm 56 - as well.

The effort that you put into being a fair-minded individual is very unusual, in the best of circumstances. And these times are most clearly not the best of circumstances. It's appreciated.

93 [deleted]  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:57:50pm
94 lostlakehiker  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:58:12pm

re: #34 J.S.

(Actually, Native Americans living on or off reserve in Canada -- many times live in abject squalor == if you travel north, you'll see living conditions reminiscent of the 19th century...rampant alcohol abuse, high-school dropouts, illiterates, ramshackle dilapidated housing -- much of it without indoor toilets or running water -- kids doing solvent sniffing -- drunken brawls, wife abuse, etc., the list of woes goes on and on...anyway, the "problem" though is that, it isn't just the government's fault -- there are many, many factors operating...with no simple, quick-fix solutions at hand...and playing on the "Oh, we're the victims! the victims!" is not empowering -- it further serves, imo, to turn them into infants...)

Question: what do Icelanders, Russians, and Native Americans have in common, and what do French, Greeks, and Chinese have in common at the opposite pole?

Answer: some populations have not evolved as much resistance to alcohol as others. The fraction of people who are particularly vulnerable to alcohol varies. In populations that have had brewing in some form or another for thousands of years, it is less than in populations for whom alcohol is somewhat of a novelty.

And within any race, there are families for which alcohol is a tragedy, or is strenuously avoided out of awareness that for that family, the stuff is poison.

Is it a human rights violation to allow these kinds of facts to get a public airing among the populations most at risk? Should HRW admonish Iceland if they try to tighten up on liquor sales? Not by me.

95 pdc_lgf  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:58:20pm

re: #93 MikeySDCA

Thanks.

96 [deleted]  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:59:01pm
97 austin_blue  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:59:17pm

re: #90 Guanxi88

Ni hao, honcos!

Had a blast in the last thread, and throughout today. Good times - slinging it out fast, furious, and heatedly, with my buddies here.

Nothing to add here, except that I respect this fellow's consistency and sense of ethics.

Ni hao, 78745! Rain tomorrow. We need it. Travis is still at 41.8% capacity.

98 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:00:11pm

re: #92 pdc_lgf

OK. I've admired this site for a long time - from the outside. I finally got the opportunity to register over the weekend.

I'm probably way, way to the left of almost all here. I just want to put those cards on the table.

The reason why I'm asking is that the folks here are verbally facile in a way I'm just not. I suspect there's a generational divide - I'm 56 - as well.

The effort that you put into being a fair-minded individual is very unusual, in the best of circumstances. And these times are most clearly not the best of circumstances. It's appreciated.

There's no generational divide. We're all "old farts" now.
Charles works VERY HARD to keep this place even keeled.
He runs the keel.
Appreciate it, or get off.
Charles's blog, Charles's rules.

I'm fine with that!

99 [deleted]  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:01:52pm
100 Guanxi88  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:03:39pm

re: #92 pdc_lgf

OK. I've admired this site for a long time - from the outside. I finally got the opportunity to register over the weekend.

I'm probably way, way to the left of almost all here. I just want to put those cards on the table.

The reason why I'm asking is that the folks here are verbally facile in a way I'm just not. I suspect there's a generational divide - I'm 56 - as well.

The effort that you put into being a fair-minded individual is very unusual, in the best of circumstances. And these times are most clearly not the best of circumstances. It's appreciated.

It comes with practice, the facility with arguments. One of the chief reasons I come here and make trouble.

101 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:03:53pm

I lost track of the last time I took Human Rights Watch seriously.

Same goes for alot of leftist and anti-Israel groups with fairly benign-sounding names.

102 pdc_lgf  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:04:43pm

re: #98 Floral Giraffe

That's the way it should be. The rules posted at the gate are conducive to orderly discussion. The alternative - best case - is a dweebathon; generic case - rule of the bottom-feeders.

103 Guanxi88  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:04:50pm

re: #97 austin_blue

Ni hao, 78745! Rain tomorrow. We need it. Travis is still at 41.8% capacity.

had one hell of cloudburst around 7:00 tonight. Really nice to see.

104 freetoken  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:05:03pm

re: #88 SanFranciscoZionist


//drum-set effect

105 Danny  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:06:00pm

re: #92 pdc_lgf

I'm probably way, way to the left of almost all here. I just want to put those cards on the table.

The reason why I'm asking is that the folks here are verbally facile in a way I'm just not. I suspect there's a generational divide - I'm 56 - as well.

I'm up there with you, but I hope I'm not too verbally facile. :)

106 pdc_lgf  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:06:09pm

re: #100 Guanxi88

The thing you wrote about Srauss divided was pretty slick. I nearly ran off the road twice, going to work, thinking about it.

107 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:06:10pm

Oh gosh golly gee...austin's here. Do I have permission to speak?

108 Guanxi88  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:06:30pm

re: #102 pdc_lgf

That's the way it should be. The rules posted at the gate are conducive to orderly discussion. The alternative - best case - is a dweebathon; generic case - rule of the bottom-feeders.

Both are fun, though.

Dweebathon - witness our Saturday discussion of toilets, Camille Paglia, and the social constructin of preferred urinary discharge stances.

Bottom-feeders - witness the all-out screaming matches I've had the last couple days here.

It's like being married, in a lot of ways.

109 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:06:46pm

re: #104 freetoken



Yes, thank you, that was the drum-set effect I was going for.

110 Guanxi88  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:07:43pm

re: #106 pdc_lgf

The thing you wrote about Srauss divided was pretty slick. I nearly ran off the road twice, going to work, thinking about it.

jeez! Don't do that! keep your mind on the here and now, or you'll end like thales, falling down a well while observing the heavens.

111 pdc_lgf  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:08:20pm

re: #108 Guanxi88

My only complaint is the use of "douche-nozzle" as a pejorative term. I spent the preponderance of my youth wishing to reincarnated as a douche-nozzle.

112 [deleted]  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:08:52pm
113 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:08:55pm

re: #105 Danny

I'm up there with you, but I hope I'm not too verbally facile. :)

And seriously, some people here go for the sparring, but a lot of folks just hang out and comment when they want to. And we do have an increasing population of self-identified liberals. (When I got here just last winter, not so much so.) People here can get bombastic, but mostly we like to hear what other people have to say.

114 freetoken  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:09:32pm

re: #92 pdc_lgf

I'm probably way, way to the left of almost all here.

Welcome... and Merry Christmas:

115 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:09:52pm

re: #107 Fenway_Nation

Oh gosh golly gee...austin's here. Do I have permission to speak?

It's a free country, and a free blog. Go ahead.

116 pdc_lgf  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:09:53pm

Wre: #112 MikeySDCA

I got over it.

117 Ginsu  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:10:32pm

re: #113 SanFranciscoZionist


This is the only blog I've seen where liberals and conservatives seem to be able to have constructive dialog.

118 Danny  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:10:33pm

re: #114 freetoken

Welcome... and Merry Christmas:


[Video]


Christmas... I wonder how many shopping days we have left.

119 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:10:45pm

re: #111 pdc_lgf

My only complaint is the use of "douche-nozzle" as a pejorative term. I spent the preponderance of my youth wishing to reincarnated as a douche-nozzle.

LOL

"O, would I were a glove upon that hand, that I might touch that cheek."

Or, you could just want to be a douche-nozzle. If Shakespeare had only thought of that.

You can always see if you can change its connotation. Iceweasel pretty thoroughly pioneered the use of 'butthurt', and now it's an accepted term around here.

120 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:11:03pm

WTF?

Army recommends 'birther' for promotion

In a stunning display of latent disrespect for President Barack Obama and a complete disregard for the good order and discipline of the U.S. Armed Forces, the Army has recommended "birther", 1LT Scott Easterling for promotion. In February of this year, the Tennessee native joined forces with "birther" attorney Orly Taitz and wrote a widely-reported letter calling President Obama a "usurper" and "impostor" because he did not believe the President was a natural-born citizen. At the time, many believed that 1LT Easterling had jeopardized his career and possibly his freedom for violating the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) which clearly prohibits publicly insulting the integrity of the President of the United States; instead he got an "administrative reprimand", also known as a slap on the wrist.

121 freetoken  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:11:43pm

re: #118 Danny

Christmas... I wonder how many shopping days we have left.

Funny you should ask...

/65

122 Guanxi88  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:11:45pm

re: #119 SanFranciscoZionist

LOL

Iceweasel pretty thoroughly pioneered the use of 'butthurt', and now it's an accepted term around here.

I got all the way up to a confirmed 11 in the previous thread, and have every hope of hitting 12 someday.

123 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:11:51pm

re: #117 Ginsu

This is the only blog I've seen where liberals and conservatives seem to be able to have constructive dialog.

It is pretty amazing, at that.

124 Ginsu  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:11:59pm

re: #120 Shiplord Kirel

Weird. Something like that is normally a career ender.

125 pdc_lgf  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:12:09pm

re: #110 Guanxi88

Actually, it was once in each direction. No well, just sad highway.

126 [deleted]  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:12:22pm
127 swamprat  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:13:40pm

re: #92 pdc_lgf
Some of the furthest left here , are also the most vocal. You will feel at home, I think. But remember lgf can be a tough room. Don't be sensitive. Debate honestly, and don't nurse a grudge(they can be hard to wean!)
We are to the left of some, and to the right of others. Generally pro-Israel. We tend to avoid obsessive dislike of either party. Many are foodies, some are religious, some are not. We are parents, professors, teachers, retired, many nationalities, racially diverse, left, right, and center. The stereotypes you have heard attributed to us are almost always wrong.

Enjoy!

128 Ginsu  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:13:41pm

re: #123 SanFranciscoZionist

Definitely. This is certainly a time when less echo chambers are needed.

129 Guanxi88  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:13:45pm

re: #125 pdc_lgf

Actually, it was once in each direction. No well, just sad highway.

Wasn't this highway, was it?

130 pdc_lgf  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:13:53pm

re: #119 SanFranciscoZionist

Okay. Her's your chance to play "Life with the Literal-Minded" ... what's a butthurt?

131 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:14:02pm

re: #124 Ginsu

Weird. Something like that is normally a career ender.

It sure got General MacArthur canned in a hurry.

132 swamprat  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:15:24pm

re: #116 pdc_lgf

W

I got over it.

I was a newt.

I got better.

133 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:15:27pm

re: #129 Guanxi88

Wasn't this highway, was it?


Very good song. Bob Dylan really did well with that one.

134 pdc_lgf  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:15:29pm

re: #129 Guanxi88

No not this highway. Not 61 Highway either.

135 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:15:44pm

re: #115 Dark_Falcon

You sure about that? Here's austin's parting gem from last night.

Well, I am out of here. I've got to say that folks on this board who have never served in the military have got a lot of nerve opining on policy decisions that impact our Soldier's and Marine's lives.

You really need to study up on the politics in the countries where we are presently engaged.

People who never served in the military...like out Commander in Chief. I guess President Obama shouldn't opine in Afghanistan since he never served, either.

136 Guanxi88  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:16:18pm

re: #128 Ginsu

Definitely. This is certainly a time when less echo chambers are needed.

re: #128 Ginsu

Definitely. This is certainly a time when less echo chambers are needed.

re: #128 Ginsu

Definitely. This is certainly a time when less echo chambers are needed.

137 Ginsu  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:16:41pm

re: #131 Shiplord Kirel


The more I read that the harder I find it to believe that he got through that unscathed. Wonder if he would have been treated different had he been an NCO instead of an officer.

138 Ginsu  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:16:58pm

re: #136 Guanxi88

:)

139 Guanxi88  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:17:13pm

re: #135 Fenway_Nation

You sure about that? Here's austin's parting gem from last night.

People who never served in the military...like out Commander in Chief. I guess President Obama shouldn't opine in Afghanistan since he never served, either.

has he expressed an opinion yet?

140 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:17:21pm

re: #130 pdc_lgf

Okay. Her's your chance to play "Life with the Literal-Minded" ... what's a butthurt?

"Butthurt", used as an adjective, describes the emotional condition of someone who has been proven wrong, disagreed with, or otherwise verbally 'spanked', and is smarting and resentful over it. I think. That's how I would best describe its colloquial use around here.

141 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:18:03pm

re: #131 Shiplord Kirel

It sure got General MacArthur canned in a hurry.

MacArthur was a birther? Well, that PROVES it! He knew Obama wasn't born in this country before Obama was even BORN!

/

142 Guanxi88  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:18:09pm

re: #140 SanFranciscoZionist

"Butthurt", used as an adjective, describes the emotional condition of someone who has been proven wrong, disagreed with, or otherwise verbally 'spanked', and is smarting and resentful over it. I think. That's how I would best describe its colloquial use around here.

i always thought it sorta referred to getting "broken in" as it were, in the shower room. It's a funny and descriptive term, though.

143 austin_blue  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:18:09pm

re: #107 Fenway_Nation

Oh gosh golly gee...austin's here. Do I have permission to speak?

Goodness gracious, yes!

144 Kronocide  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:18:56pm

re: #135 Fenway_Nation

What's even more perturbing is that post got positive karma.

145 [deleted]  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:19:09pm
146 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:19:27pm

re: #137 Ginsu

The more I read that the harder I find it to believe that he got through that unscathed. Wonder if he would have been treated different had he been an NCO instead of an officer.

It seems like an incredible disciplinary lapse to me.
"No, lieutenant, I am not going to show you my commission to prove I really am a colonel. Now get your ass out there and soldier, soldier!"

147 austin_blue  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:19:37pm

re: #135 Fenway_Nation

You sure about that? Here's austin's parting gem from last night.

People who never served in the military...like out Commander in Chief. I guess President Obama shouldn't opine in Afghanistan since he never served, either.

Hey, I got a little chippy. Sorry.

148 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:21:01pm

re: #141 SanFranciscoZionist

MacArthur was a birther? Well, that PROVES it! He knew Obama wasn't born in this country before Obama was even BORN!

/

Public insubordination. Same offense, different context.

149 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:22:33pm

re: #147 austin_blue

Hey, I got a little chippy. Sorry.

You are forgiven. We spout off from time-to-time. Just make sure you learn from your error.

150 Ginsu  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:23:03pm

re: #146 Shiplord Kirel

Guy's a freakin' lieutenant too. Doesn't he know to clear everything he does through the Platoon Sgt? Or maybe he did b/c the platoon sgt was hoping the guy would do a mil-flounce...
/

151 swamprat  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:23:07pm

re: #130 pdc_lgf

One of the features that is very useful is in the upper left hand side of the page; MASTERSPY

It will show you each and every comment and rating in real time.
You can watch people add comments to previous posts and watch as people rate other comments.

152 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:23:09pm

re: #142 Guanxi88

i always thought it sorta referred to getting "broken in" as it were, in the shower room. It's a funny and descriptive term, though.

Some people do seem to believe it has a more, er, shower-roomy significance. I just don't think lizards should do that sort of thing to one another. Unless they're into it.

153 Guanxi88  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:23:58pm

re: #152 SanFranciscoZionist

Some people do seem to believe it has a more, er, shower-roomy significance. I just don't think lizards should do that sort of thing to one another. Unless they're into it.

i mean, if everyone's on board and friendly, whatever happens happens. Free country at all.

154 freetoken  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:24:04pm

re: #130 pdc_lgf

Okay. Her's your chance to play "Life with the Literal-Minded" ... what's a butthurt?

Jimmah deploys some videos here at the appropriate time:
[Link: www.youtube.com...]

You'll learn to recognize one when you see it.

155 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:24:04pm

re: #148 Shiplord Kirel

Public insubordination. Same offense, different context.

Heck, I thought I was on to something.

/stupid facts

156 pdc_lgf  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:24:14pm

re: #145 MikeySDCA

It's an elaborate dance. The POTUS knows exactly where he's going, in my opinion.

There's an elaborate ritual required to get more troops to Afghanistan. (My strong preference.) The worst part is, once they are there, in 18 months Congress will want to bring them home. If the situation improves,, then that will be the pretext. If the situation doesn't, then that will be the pretext.

Under such circumstances, even a few more votes in the Senate mean a lot. Hence, the dance.

157 austin_blue  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:24:28pm

re: #144 BigPapa

What's even more perturbing is that post got positive karma.

Well, see, vets have this club. We mindlessly upding each other's comments, regardless of content.

;-)

158 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:25:35pm

re: #157 austin_blue

Not ALL vets...

159 latitude51  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:28:03pm

re: #61 Shiplord Kirel

And my personal favourite, Juan Cole. My head nearly exploded when he turned up on CBC radio the other week. They had Dore Gold first and then Juan Cole for a rebuttal regarding Iran's nuclear ambitions. He manages to slip in nearly every lie and distortion of his ilk in just a few minutes of radio interview. Check the link and listen to part two and feel your carotid artery nearly burst, enjoy

[Link: www.cbc.ca...]

160 [deleted]  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:28:19pm
161 BryanS  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:28:22pm

re: #156 pdc_lgf

It's an elaborate dance. The POTUS knows exactly where he's going, in my opinion.

There's an elaborate ritual required to get more troops to Afghanistan. (My strong preference.) The worst part is, once they are there, in 18 months Congress will want to bring them home. If the situation improves,, then that will be the pretext. If the situation doesn't, then that will be the pretext.

Under such circumstances, even a few more votes in the Senate mean a lot. Hence, the dance.

Yeah. He needs to protect his left flank. Both houses and the presidency in the same party's hands is just horrible for governance. Bush sucked it up, and it looks like Obama is on his way to do the same.

162 lostlakehiker  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:29:02pm

re: #92 pdc_lgf

OK. I've admired this site for a long time - from the outside. I finally got the opportunity to register over the weekend.

I'm probably way, way to the left of almost all here. I just want to put those cards on the table.

The reason why I'm asking is that the folks here are verbally facile in a way I'm just not. I suspect there's a generational divide - I'm 56 - as well.

The effort that you put into being a fair-minded individual is very unusual, in the best of circumstances. And these times are most clearly not the best of circumstances. It's appreciated.

You'll find you have allies on some topics. [Creationism? Global warming? Distaste for Patrick Buchanan?] If you don't find this site anathema, you're probably willing to think and rethink positions, and debate fairly. That's all we ask, really.

163 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:29:51pm

re: #159 latitude51

Did Calgary win tonight?

164 austin_blue  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:30:02pm

re: #158 Fenway_Nation

Not ALL vets...

Joke! That was a joke. Or irony. Or something. Again, sorry to rag on you. It's just that according to Patreus' counter-terrorism bible, we need about 650,000 troopers to control the country and grow it.

Not gonna happen.

165 swamprat  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:31:19pm

re: #160 MikeySDCA

How do you really feel?

166 [deleted]  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:32:07pm
167 pdc_lgf  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:32:52pm

re: #162 lostlakehiker

Ah, Creationism, Global Warming, my ol' pal Pat - easy targets. I try to avoid having positions. The easy stuff is too easy, and the hard stuff requires flexibility.

What's amazing to me is the outpouring of venom when somebody ventures away from preconfigured talking points. I don't mean within this site. I mean in the outside world.

168 transient  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:33:18pm

Read this article earlier today. Thanks for posting it, Charles.

Sof hafsaka...
Back to work.

169 swamprat  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:33:24pm

re: #166 MikeySDCA

More like gentle ribbing.

170 latitude51  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:33:25pm

re: #163 Fenway_Nation

Did Calgary win tonight?

Indeed we did!

171 Ginsu  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:34:14pm

re: #164 austin_blue

Makes me wish that Rumsfield had pushed for a larger Army back right after 9/11. Probably could have added light infantry divisions rather than mech to keep it a bit cheaper and they would have be very useful to have available right now.

172 [deleted]  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:35:03pm
173 pdc_lgf  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:35:26pm

re: #171 Ginsu

But Rumsfeld was all about a smaller army. Actually, Rumsfeld was all about Rumsfeld.

174 swamprat  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:35:33pm

must sleep
Good lizards, new and old.

175 Guanxi88  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:36:12pm

re: #154 freetoken

Jimmah deploys some videos here at the appropriate time:
[Link: www.youtube.com...]

You'll learn to recognize one when you see it.

See my:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

I've got a few others out there.

176 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:36:40pm

re: #174 swamprat


Fare thee well, rodent of the marshy wetlands persuasion.

177 Ginsu  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:37:24pm

re: #173 pdc_lgf


I guess it's from playing too much Civ but I'd always could find an excuse for us to have a larger army.

178 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:37:57pm

re: #173 pdc_lgf

But Rumsfeld was all about a smaller army. Actually, Rumsfeld was all about Rumsfeld.

"You're giving aid and comfort to the couch!" Was that MadTV or SNL? Can't remember.

OK, going to bed now. Welcome new people, old people, I'm glad we made it through that last thread without anything catching fire.

179 BryanS  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:38:14pm

re: #172 MikeySDCA

I've been calling thim that since early in the campaign.The man is a fraud. He's only honest in choosing a burger.

He certainly ran much more moderate than he actually is.

180 Guanxi88  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:39:33pm

re: #179 BryanS

He certainly ran much more moderate than he actually is.

Much as I dislike his policies, I disagree. he campaigned on almost nothing but vague reassurances that he thought exactly as you did, and so there was no need to go into specifics.

181 Guanxi88  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:40:42pm

re: #178 SanFranciscoZionist

"You're giving aid and comfort to the couch!" Was that MadTV or SNL? Can't remember.

OK, going to bed now. Welcome new people, old people, I'm glad we made it through that last thread without anything catching fire.

See, I enjoy a good melt-down, even when i'm the one having it. Very cathartic, and certainly saves my family from having to witness me freaking out.

182 austin_blue  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:40:56pm

re: #171 Ginsu

Makes me wish that Rumsfield had pushed for a larger Army back right after 9/11. Probably could have added light infantry divisions rather than mech to keep it a bit cheaper and they would have be very useful to have available right now.

Rumsfeld wanted to replace traditional armor with lighter, faster, more mobile troops. Ran headlong into traditional army orthodoxy. And in 2000, nobody wanted to increase the size of the standing army. We were at peace. The Soviets were toast. What could happen to change that?

(((cue the Jaws soundtrack)))

183 swamprat  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:41:37pm

re: #172 MikeySDCA

Yeah. Everybody studiously avoided any and all blemishes, and many are now having buyers' remorse.
But he is our president now, and I wish him the best of luck...
Pretty lonely at that job.

We need him to do well.

184 Ginsu  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:41:45pm

re: #182 austin_blue


Too true.

185 BryanS  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:41:45pm

re: #180 Guanxi88

Much as I dislike his policies, I disagree. he campaigned on almost nothing but vague reassurances that he thought exactly as you did, and so there was no need to go into specifics.

OK, so he ran on fluff--no disagreement there. But I think he did that so he could use the oft used Obamism "I've always believed [fill in the blank]". It just so happens that [fill in the blank] is mostly hard left.

186 Ginsu  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:45:16pm

re: #182 austin_blue

Yeah I remember reading that in the Army times getting excited as though my guard unit was suddenly going to replace our Bradley's with Strykers. That didn't happen of course. Being a career Spec 4 it didn't really matter if I was going to ride to the line of departure in the back of a Bradley or a Stryker one weekend a month anyways.

187 freetoken  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:45:34pm

re: #185 BryanS

It just so happens that [fill in the blank] is mostly hard left.

So far after 9 months President Obama's actions don't seem "hard left" to me.

188 Guanxi88  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:45:36pm

re: #185 BryanS

OK, so he ran on fluff--no disagreement there. But I think he did that so he could use the oft used Obamism "I've always believed [fill in the blank]". It just so happens that [fill in the blank] is mostly hard left.

No argument from me on that score. There's certainly nothing that can be inferred from his advisors, friends and colleagues, though. All of it is meaningless, and to bring it up is de facto evidence of being a talking-points parrot for Beck, and probably a sekrit racist into the bargain. //

189 pdc_lgf  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:45:47pm

re: #162 lostlakehiker

I should emend what I said. They're easy targets. But they're also like that stupid battery bunny on TV - they keep going, and going and going. Hence the need to keep resisting, debunking, resisting, debunking.

Being Jewish, I guess I am entitled to have a favorite Jew-baiter. Pat Buchanan is up there. Evidently, my co-religionists with their disproptionate influence must feel similarly, given how long Pat has been a fixture in Our Media.

190 Guanxi88  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:48:13pm

re: #185 BryanS

But I think he did that so he could use the oft used Obamism "I've always believed [fill in the blank]". It just so happens that [fill in the blank] is mostly hard left.

I interpret that Obamism as a way of pre-empting criticism for any apparent variation between the expectations he raised and what he actually does.

191 pdc_lgf  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:48:34pm

re: #188 Guanxi88

On one hand, I'm not clear what you guys are talking about. But I'm sure I disagree. Or something.

Time for bed. Thanks for everything. Goodnight.

192 Guanxi88  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:49:01pm

re: #191 pdc_lgf

On one hand, I'm not clear what you guys are talking about. But I'm sure I disagree. Or something.

Time for bed. Thanks for everything. Goodnight.

'night!

193 BryanS  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:49:07pm

re: #187 freetoken

So far after 9 months President Obama's actions don't seem "hard left" to me.

His health care proposals are. Gus support of the Orwellian "Employee Free Choice Act" is.

194 BryanS  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:50:32pm

re: #190 Guanxi88

I interpret that Obamism as a way of pre-empting criticism for any apparent variation between the expectations he raised and what he actually does.

I don't understand why that turn of phrase is not highlighted more by the press as obvious pandering/repositioning by Obama.

195 austin_blue  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:51:08pm

re: #186 Ginsu

Yeah I remember reading that in the Army times getting excited as though my guard unit was suddenly going to replace our Bradley's with Strykers. That didn't happen of course. Being a career Spec 4 it didn't really matter if I was going to ride to the line of departure in the back of a Bradley or a Stryker one weekend a month anyways.

And if anyone hasn't mentioned it lately, thanks for your service.

196 freetoken  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:52:09pm

re: #193 BryanS

His health care proposals are.

Well, we must have different definitions of "hard left".

197 Guanxi88  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:52:14pm

re: #194 BryanS

I don't understand why that turn of phrase is not highlighted more by the press as obvious pandering/repositioning by Obama.

part of it is that he's very well-spoken and has very good writers. There are ways to say things that appear to say other things, and in fact could mean something else altogether. Say such things often enough, and you can never be accused of changing your position on anything.

198 Guanxi88  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:53:05pm

re: #196 freetoken

Well, we must have different definitions of "hard left".

yeah, the health insurance thing isn't hard-left in my book either. In fact, he himself isn't that radical. Others in his orbit, though...

199 Ginsu  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:53:21pm

re: #193 BryanS

True, but I think to those that voted for him they were probably disappointed that he hasn't closed Gitmo yet or ended the war in Iraq. The inertia of past policies and the real responsibility of protecting US interests moderated some of the more left of center campaign promises.

200 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:53:25pm

re: #186 Ginsu

The Piranahs Strykers were before my time...

/Bradleys- not so much

201 austin_blue  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:53:46pm

re: #187 freetoken

So far after 9 months President Obama's actions don't seem "hard left" to me.

Agreed. He is trying to skate the middle, in trying times. Tough row to hoe.

202 Ginsu  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:55:49pm

re: #195 austin_blue

The same to you! I was just a guardsman grunt. I've heard how rigorous and difficult flight school is not to mention even getting a shot at it is tough so thank you for your service as well!

203 freetoken  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:58:49pm

Ditto-head "Fiery Red XIII" is going on a dinging spree downstairs... must be angry.

204 Guanxi88  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:59:40pm

re: #203 freetoken

Ditto-head "Fiery Red XIII" is going on a dinging spree downstairs... must be angry.

I hate that crap. It's like bayoneting the wounded after a battle. Pathetic cowardice.

205 austin_blue  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:00:18pm

re: #202 Ginsu

The same to you! I was just a guardsman grunt. I've heard how rigorous and difficult flight school is not to mention even getting a shot at it is tough so thank you for your service as well!

We flew in air conditioned comfort. Wars are won by guys with rifles. The kid with a CIB is the King of the World, in my book.

Dismounted patrol? That takes real stones. I drove airplanes. Not *even* in the same league.

206 Ginsu  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:00:56pm

re: #200 Fenway_Nation

Only saw pictures of them before I got out in 02. Was more of a Light Infantry guy myself before I moved to GA and had to go mech. Always thought that they could have sub-titled "Widow Maker" right below Bradley especially with the armor upgrades and going from amphibious to non-amphibious.

207 suchislife  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:01:09pm

re: #203 freetoken

I just used the LGF spy for the first time and now I get what you mean by that.

208 Guanxi88  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:01:30pm

re: #205 austin_blue

We flew in air conditioned comfort. Wars are won by guys with rifles. The kid with a CIB is the King of the World, in my book.

Dismounted patrol? That takes real stones. I drove airplanes. Not *even* in the same league.

I dunno about that. If something goes wrong for a pilot, it can get pretty hairy. Lost an uncle I never met - a Thud driver - who decided he didn't fancy his chances as a rifleman.

209 Guanxi88  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:03:14pm

re: #205 austin_blue

The kid with a CIB is the King of the World, in my book.

He's the one who lets everybody know the war is finally over. he's the last piece, and, like every other part of the symphony of violence and death that is warfare, absolutely essential. So's the guy who fuels up supply trucks.

210 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:03:19pm

re: #206 Ginsu

They kept a captured Iraqi BMP on display where I was stationed...apparently for the sole purpose of having 11Ms looking at it and saying 'Well...it could be worse- we could be crammed in that thing'.

211 freetoken  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:03:21pm

Broke the mold:

212 Guanxi88  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:04:30pm

re: #211 freetoken

Broke the mold:


Easily one of the five coolest, most talented men of the 20th century.

213 Ginsu  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:06:17pm

re: #210 Fenway_Nation

Damn that's messed up. I believe it was the BTR that the Russians had that had troop doors in between the 2 road wheels and they were trained to dismount while it was rolling with full combat loads. Every FTX must have resulted in several training fatalities from that.

214 austin_blue  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:06:57pm

re: #208 Guanxi88

I dunno about that. If something goes wrong for a pilot, it can get pretty hairy. Lost an uncle I never met - a Thud driver - who decided he didn't fancy his chances as a rifleman.

I hear you you. Flying is 99% boredom and 1% "Oh, holy shit, this could be really bad." But I cannot imagine the tension of being an infantry trooper or Marine in the bad days in Iraq and what our young men (and not a few women) are going through now in Afghanistan. That tension convention results in wounds even if you are never hit.

Sherman was right. War is hell.

215 Guanxi88  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:08:49pm

re: #214 austin_blue

I hear you you. Flying is 99% boredom and 1% "Oh, holy shit, this could be really bad." But I cannot imagine the tension of being an infantry trooper or Marine in the bad days in Iraq and what our young men (and not a few women) are going through now in Afghanistan. That tension convention results in wounds even if you are never hit.

Sherman was right. War is hell.

I've seen, at my main gig, some of the folk returning from there. 99.9% are okay, if a little shaken up. That last little bit, though, break your heart.

216 Bagua  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:09:28pm

re: #92 pdc_lgf


[...]Im probably way, way to the left of almost all here. I just want to put those cards on the table.[...]


[...]There's an elaborate ritual required to get more troops to Afghanistan. (My strong preference.)[...]

Those two are seem inconsistent, wouldn't the extreme left favour peace and not war.

217 Ginsu  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:10:02pm

re: #205 austin_blue

I'm sure those young heroes are very happy to talk to any of you fighter jocks to bring in a hurtin' on the bad guys.

218 austin_blue  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:10:08pm

re: #210 Fenway_Nation

They kept a captured Iraqi BMP on display where I was stationed...apparently for the sole purpose of having 11Ms looking at it and saying 'Well...it could be worse- we could be crammed in that thing'.

Zippos. "Armored" was a joke adjective. Even the Bradley's 25 mike tore them to pieces.

219 Guanxi88  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:10:28pm

re: #216 Bagua

Those two are seem inconsistent, wouldn't the extreme left favour peace and not war.

Not necessarily. There are left hawks - national health care at home, and strength of arms abroad. it's not a common constellation, but I bet it's not all that rare, either.

220 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:12:43pm

re: #218 austin_blue

Probably- this particular specimen was intact, tho'. I'm guessing the main advantage for the BMP was/is it's inexpensive for the Russkies to produce and sell to other despots awash in petrobucks...

221 Ginsu  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:15:44pm

re: #219 Guanxi88

I'd imagine your correct, especially with all the so called Blue Dog Democrats. I could see that over lap not being that rare.

222 Ginsu  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:16:35pm

re: #220 Fenway_Nation


That just makes it sound real bad. Not only is it Soviet era tech but made for export Soviet tech.

223 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:20:04pm

re: #218 austin_blue

Zippos. "Armored" was a joke adjective. Even the Bradley's 25 mike tore them to pieces.

Sadly, that's not the case with the latest versions of BMP-2. Some of those have a lot more armor. Nastiest is the model with a 57mm automatic cannon. Low rate of fire but a 57mm's DU penetrotor round will turn any IFV to scrap iron. Thankfully, the Russians don't have too many of that model.

224 Ginsu  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:21:33pm

re: #223 Dark_Falcon

Didn't realize that they were using DU rounds. Depleted Uranium I mean, not Democratic Underground.

225 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:23:20pm

Hey Night Lizards!

I'm currently listening to James Madison and the Struggle for the Bill of Rights. Man-o-Man, we think it's bad now! I am constantly amazed and feel indebted to the Founders.

How are you-all.

226 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:25:22pm

re: #224 Ginsu

Didn't realize that they were using DU rounds. Depleted Uranium I mean, not Democratic Underground.

They 57mm does use them. The actually penetrator is about 40mm and is finned for stabilization. DU rounds are very bad news for any vehicle they penetrate, because they spawl off pieces that spontaneously combust. Nasty stuff.

227 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:25:28pm

re: #203 freetoken

Ditto-head "Fiery Red XIII" is going on a dinging spree downstairs... must be angry.

A dittohead who's named after the orange dog from Final Fantasy 7? Are you kidding me?

228 austin_blue  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:25:34pm

re: #217 Ginsu

I'm sure those young heroes are very happy to talk to any of you fighter jocks to bring in a hurtin' on the bad guys.

Ah, my Dad was the fighter jock. I flew planes with many, many motors. Of course, we could also carry 30 1,000-pound iron bombs. Infantry liked that.

A typical EWO load was 4 B-43, and 6 SRAMs. We ran the numbers one day and figured if the weather was right, we could make an attack run from DC to Boston and kill thirty million people.

That's with one airplane.

229 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:27:25pm

re: #92 pdc_lgf

You might not be to the left of me. 8-)

230 Ginsu  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:27:47pm

re: #228 austin_blue

Wow! One of the guys I worked with had a son in the AF who flew 141's at the time and used to put the fighter jocks in their place when they'd harass him by asking if they had a latrine on their bird. That usually ended the conversation with some grumbling.

231 austin_blue  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:28:02pm

re: #223 Dark_Falcon

Sadly, that's not the case with the latest versions of BMP-2. Some of those have a lot more armor. Nastiest is the model with a 57mm automatic cannon. Low rate of fire but a 57mm's DU penetrotor round will turn any IFV to scrap iron. Thankfully, the Russians don't have too many of that model.

And they aren't selling them to "non-traditional fighting forces".

232 Ginsu  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:30:34pm

re: #226 Dark_Falcon

Gosh I wish the Ruskies wouldn't have gotten all those petro bucks the past couple years to keep designing their stuff. Since they nationalized their oil industry they'll probably continue to lose production each year so hopefully that will eventually moderate their arms spending. Eventually.

233 Bagua  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:33:17pm

re: #228 austin_blue

We ran the numbers one day and figured if the weather was right, we could make an attack run from DC to Boston and kill thirty million people.

Great, just when I was starting to relax for the evening, my whole sense of safety is gone...

234 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:34:30pm

re: #231 austin_blue

And they aren't selling them to "non-traditional fighting forces".

That's the good thing about things like T-90s and BMP-2D's. They're fairly nasty customers, but the only people who can use them have assets we can target. And they're the added bonus that our MBTs and IFVs are still a good deal better.

235 Ginsu  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:38:55pm

Good night folks! Thanks for the conversation!

236 austin_blue  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:45:20pm

re: #234 Dark_Falcon

That's the good thing about things like T-90s and BMP-2D's. They're fairly nasty customers, but the only people who can use them have assets we can target. And they're the added bonus that our MBTs and IFVs are still a good deal better.

Cold comfort, DF. Afghanistan worries me no end.

Off to the rack. Be nice to each other.

237 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:51:21pm

re: #236 austin_blue

Cold comfort, DF. Afghanistan worries me no end.

Off to the rack. Be nice to each other.

It worries me too. Good night, Austin.

238 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:52:35pm

re: #216 Bagua

Those two are seem inconsistent, wouldn't the extreme left favour peace and not war.

Drive-by post here... I think he's got the foreign policy cap on straight, like Charles, but is more to the left on the domestic/social issues.

I also doubt he is "extreme left" and is more centre-left, but feels the most lizards are centre-right, making him way to the left of most lizards.

It's all relative.

I would also say everyone favors peace and not war -- right and left. The difference is the left thinks you can whine and complain and apologize your way to peace, whereas the right thinks you will have peace when your adversaries respect you.

Speaking of force as a means to peace: Check out this article in the NYT if you are up for some good night reading.

The editors must have had a heart attack to let something like that get published :p


Good Night Everyone!

239 sagehen  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:02:48am

re: #219 Guanxi88

Not necessarily. There are left hawks - national health care at home, and strength of arms abroad. it's not a common constellation, but I bet it's not all that rare, either.


Jim Webb (D-VA).

3rd or 4th generation marine. His kids are marines. Secretary of the Navy under Reagan. Wrote several best-selling novels. Wrote the GI Bill. Wants single-payer healthcare, but he'll settle for a public option. Wants to add two higher income tax brackets. Currently working on criminal justice reform -- he thinks there should be half as many people in prison.

240 sagehen  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:08:59am

re: #225 ggt

Hey Night Lizards!

I'm currently listening to James Madison and the Struggle for the Bill of Rights. Man-o-Man, we think it's bad now! I am constantly amazed and feel indebted to the Founders.

How are you-all.

241 Marcus Dracon  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:13:28am

Finally the human rights worm is beginning to turn.

242 leprechaun  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 4:09:30am

re: #87 pdc_lgf

agreed. Boteach is pretty much a charlatan. What rabbi loses a public debate about whether there is a GOD and continues to carry on moralizing to people...

243 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 4:54:28am

Robert Bernstein is experiencing something called "integrity"; a rare phenomenon that occasionally affects humans. Luckily, it's usually treatable by injections of large sums of cash and/or fame, when caught early enough.

244 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 4:56:15am

@243
I forgot to mention that Bernstein should consult with a lawyer as soon as possible to discuss possible treatment options.

245 baier  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 6:35:39am

Too little too late. I don't feel like this is vindication at all. This is like an addict waking up to all the damage he has done. There is no pleasure in this, too many reputations were dragged through the mud, too many people vilified, too many distortions that are now accepted realities. What a mess.

246 pdc_lgf  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 6:57:14am

This illustrates why I'm trying to "baseline," for a lack of a better word.

To me, someone like Noam Chomsky is extreme left. (For various reasons, I despise the guy.)

I get through my little life trying to deal with things as they come up. It's not that I lack principles. I just a) cannot articulate them; and b) try to be like the minimalist judge who argues as narrowly as is practicable to make a decision; c) discover myself as not knowing much that is worth knowing (as the saying goes.)

I revere the USA.

I've got the "eyes to big for my stomach" thing when it comes to books. I've read the first two chapters of Terror and Consent. Without going into who or what the author is or represents, I think the ideas limned there make it very clear why it's a real necessary thing to keep the Taleban away from being able to bring their designs to fruition. And the Taleban's proximity to nukes clinches the case for me.

As for what kind of society I'd like to live in, Hayek's Constitution of Liberty (I got a fair bit into it - it's a long term project) is fairly illustrative, as a work of social thought. The economics are just economics. I don't take economics all that seriously. And I'm for sure not a libertarian.

The question is of course, how to get from point A to point B. If there was any real large-scale enthusiasm for Constitution of Liberty sort of ideas within the electorate, we wouldn't be where we are. And so we muddle through with what we have, and that's what I do too: muddle through, in my empirical/pragmatic way.

247 mattm  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:06:02am

Too little too late in IMHO. They have done so much damage to their name that it will be hard for anyone to believe them.

248 Buck  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:45:34am

Marc Garlascos, a top human rights investigator who, having joined Human Rights Watch after several years with the Pentagon, has become known for his shrill attacks on Israel.

In fact he is the main voice in the reports we are talking about.

AND he is an obsessed with the color and pageantry of Nazism, has published a detailed 430 page book on Nazi war paraphernalia, and participates in forums for Nazi souvenir collectors.

[Link: www.mererhetoric.com...]

There is no way that HRW didn't know about this. A simple google search of his name brings it up...

This includes a handful of juvenile and tasteless postings he made on two websites. For which he is sorry.

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

BUT, does this make sense?

249 Marcus Dracon  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 1:05:43pm

Goldstone trying to justify himself, claims he is saddened by the "blood-libel" resolution, absurdly tries to distance himself from his own report.

[Link: www.forward.com...]

250 Achilles Tang  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 2:39:04pm

This seems to be a human condition. HRW degenerates, Amnesty turns to moonbats, Greenpiece morphs into a reality crazies show, for all I know PETA started out sane (although I don't know), and with apologies to many gun owners, like myself, I wish the NRA would stick to hunting and shooting skills.

There's no money to be made in rationality./

251 Diane  Thu, Oct 22, 2009 6:27:01am

I thought that human rights were no longer an interest for journalists, bloggers in the past few years and certainly for most organizations claiming to defend human rights, those I know anyway.

Robert Bernstein does not say that Israel has been the target of abuse by those organizations for quite a while, but at least, he is speaking out now.


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