22% of Brits Would Consider Voting for White Supremacists?

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Wow. If this is true, Britain may have a bigger problem with racial issues than the United States does: One in Five Britons Consider Voting BNP, Telegraph Poll Says.

Oct. 24 (Bloomberg) — One in five Britons would consider voting for the whites-only British National Party, a YouGov poll for the Daily Telegraph said, two days after BNP leader Nick Griffin appeared in a British Broadcasting Corp. debate.

About 22 percent of voters would “seriously consider” voting for the party in a future local, national or European election, the Telegraph said, citing the poll. The BNP, which bars all except “indigenous Caucasian” people from membership, gained its first two European Parliament seats in June.

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281 comments
1 astronmr20  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 9:45:03am

Although I don't put much stock in these sorts of polls, this is indeed troubling.

Seemed like a large enough sample:

YouGov polled 1,314 voters across Britain on Oct. 22-23 after Question Time aired. The data was weighted to conform with the U.K.’s demographic profile, the paper said, without giving a margin of error..

2 Varek Raith  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 9:45:07am

That's rather depressing. Not to mention infuriating...

3 lone_wolf_in_illinois  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 9:45:48am

That is sad.

4 brookly red  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 9:45:58am

That's is a scary stat indeed. But I don't put muct faith in polls.

5 Killgore Trout  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 9:47:16am
The BNP, which bars all except “indigenous Caucasian” people from membership, gained its first two European Parliament seats in June.


I think they recently changed their constitution to allow non whites.

6 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 9:48:54am

re: #5 Killgore Trout

I think they recently changed their constitution to allow non whites.

Plausible Deniability for political cover

7 Athens Runaway  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 9:49:07am
YouGov polled 1,314 voters across Britain on Oct. 22-23 after Question Time aired. The data was weighted to conform with the U.K.’s demographic profile, the paper said, without giving a margin of error..

Should a statistically representative survey need to be re-jiggled like that? I'm not a statistician, so I don't know for sure.

Also, not giving a margin of error is suspect.

That said, this is troubling indeed!

8 Killgore Trout  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 9:49:17am

'SHOW RESPECT OR REAP WHAT YOU SOW WHEN WE ARE IN POWER' BNP BIGWIG WARNS JEWS



ONE of Nick Griffin’s most trusted lieutenants sparked fresh outrage last night after he warned British Jews to “show respect” or “reap what you sow when we are in power”.

Lee John Barnes, the BNP’s legal director, produced the outburst as he debated Mr Griffin’s appearance on Question Time.

While Mr Griffin tried to claim his party had ditched its anti-Semitic past, his inept sidekick exposed its true colours on an anti-extremist website.


Goading opponents that the BNP had won a massive propaganda coup, he aimed his threats at lawyer David Toube who runs Harry’s Place, the website which campaigns against the BNP and Islamic extremism.

When Mr Toube, one of Britain’s most prominent Jews, told Mr Barnes, 43, not to get “too smug”, the BNP man replied: “That’s fine. Just remember though, ‘You will reap what you sow’.


“The way you treat us now is how we shall treat you in the future. The example you set us is the example we will follow when we are in power.


“The many different pressure points are beginning to converge towards a ‘tipping point’, a moment of political equilibrium when revolutionary social and political change occurs.”


He added: “Best you show us some respect, some day you will want us to respect you.”

9 SixDegrees  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 9:49:50am

re: #1 astronmr20

Although I don't put much stock in these sorts of polls, this is indeed troubling.

Seemed like a large enough sample:

If sampling was random, the margin of error is around 3% for this sample size.

10 Killgore Trout  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 9:49:54am

re: #6 sattv4u2

Plausible Deniability for political cover

I think they were required to do it by UK anti-discrimination laws.

11 brookly red  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 9:50:08am

re: #5 Killgore Trout

I think they recently changed their constitution to allow non whites.

Indigenous? that's like natural born, yes?

12 Sharmuta  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 9:50:38am
About 22 percent of voters would “seriously consider” voting for the party in a future local, national or European election, the Telegraph said, citing the poll.

What harm could electing a few nazis do? ///

13 Varek Raith  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 9:50:52am

re: #8 Killgore Trout

'SHOW RESPECT OR REAP WHAT YOU SOW WHEN WE ARE IN POWER' BNP BIGWIG WARNS JEWS

I hate British Nazis.

14 SixDegrees  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 9:51:11am

re: #7 Athens Runaway

Should a statistically representative survey need to be re-jiggled like that? I'm not a statistician, so I don't know for sure.

Also, not giving a margin of error is suspect.

That said, this is troubling indeed!

I agree that the "weighting" is suspect without more information. There ought to be nothing wrong with flat-out random sampling with a sample this size.

15 Killgore Trout  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 9:51:18am

Harry's place: Arthur Kemp: BNP Reichsminister des Auswärtigen

16 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 9:53:02am

re: #10 Killgore Trout

I think they were required to do it by UK anti-discrimination laws.

All the worse then. Still gives them cover. It would have been better (for opponents) to distribute the section in their charter that states “indigenous Caucasian” only on billboards, fliers, TV and radio spots

17 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 9:53:11am

Funnily enough, that is about the percentage of the UK population I'd like to see sent to Australia.

BBL

18 Varek Raith  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 9:54:29am

re: #17 Jimmah

Funnily enough, that is about the percentage of the UK population I'd like to see sent to Australia.

BBL

What did the Aussies do to deserve that?
/

19 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 9:54:29am

re: #17 Jimmah

Funnily enough, that is about the percentage of the UK population I'd like to see sent to Australia.

BBL

"Funnily" enough, it's the same percentage that Australia wants to send BACK to you that you originally sent there!

20 Athens Runaway  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 9:55:03am

I wonder what percentage of that 22% are chavs.

21 reine.de.tout  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 9:55:54am

re: #8 Killgore Trout

'SHOW RESPECT OR REAP WHAT YOU SOW WHEN WE ARE IN POWER' BNP BIGWIG WARNS JEWS

they can't keep it hidden for long, can they?

22 Varek Raith  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 9:56:32am

re: #20 Athens Runaway

I wonder what percentage of that 22% are chavs.

Had to google that.

23 arethusa  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 9:58:36am

The BNP is probably partly helped in the UK by general Euro-skepticism. They got really the first electoral results ever for their party in the European Parliament elections. Hopefully the other 78% of British voters know there are better ways to express dissatisfaction with the EU - the real test as to whether this study is accurate will be the general election next year. And I really hope it isn't accurate.

24 [deleted]  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 9:59:10am
25 Sharmuta  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 9:59:54am

re: #24 Truth Dr.

Might want to reign in the hyperbole there.

26 Varek Raith  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:00:01am

re: #24 Truth Dr.

WTF?

27 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:01:14am

re: #24 Truth Dr.

So along with the 70% anti-semitic leftwing Islamofacist voting block, its pretty much 92% of Brits are evil, racist moonbats.

Statistics (thankfully) don't work that way. You cannot take two seperate numbers and add them like that. Most (if not all) of one are the same people as the other

28 brookly red  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:01:35am

22%...
1 in 5... I am remembering a Doors song.

29 Sharmuta  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:03:58am

re: #26 Varek Raith

Sticking "truth" in one's nic is kind of a tell.

30 lostlakehiker  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:04:08am

It's a good exercise in logic to try to figure out how this poll is possible. What is it about the positions of the mainstream parties that is so out of line with what British voters want, that in desperation they would consider voting for BNP---not to bring BNP to power, but to send a message?

The essays of Theodore Dalrymple do not in any way justify or point to BNP-style policies. But taken in aggregate, they do point to a massive collapse of social order and a corresponding collapse in the prospects of Britain. Education is a shambles. Health care amounts to free visits to a doctor who has no time to take a proper history, no diagnostic battery of tests he can order, and frequently, a substandard medical education. A net of cameras watches over everyone all the time, yet when a serious crime is committed in broad daylight and in full view of these cameras, the law is inert. What with the skinheads, yobs, or "soccer fans" on the one hand, and immigrant gangs on the other, whole regions are becoming close to no-go zones. The economy is waking from a hangover of binge financing and discovering that it has little solid footing.

Anybody who offers something different from more of the same, even if really it's different because it's worse, is going to gain some traction with more than a sliver of the voters.

31 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:04:56am

re: #29 Sharmuta

Sticking "truth" in one's nic is kind of a tell.

Not to mention "DR"

32 brookly red  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:05:13am

re: #21 reine.de.tout

they can't keep it hidden for long, can they?

seems like they don't want to.

33 MandyManners  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:06:40am

re: #8 Killgore Trout

'SHOW RESPECT OR REAP WHAT YOU SOW WHEN WE ARE IN POWER' BNP BIGWIG WARNS JEWS

I wonder what Gellar and Spencer think of that.

34 Ojoe  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:07:02am

I think the Queen needs to admonish her subjects.

35 Guanxi88  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:07:22am

re: #30 lostlakehiker

"The essays of Theodore Dalrymple do not in any way justify or point to BNP-style policies. But taken in aggregate, they do point to a massive collapse of social order and a corresponding collapse in the prospects of Britain.
...
What with the skinheads, yobs, or "soccer fans" on the one hand, and immigrant gangs on the other, whole regions are becoming close to no-go zones. The economy is waking from a hangover of binge financing and discovering that it has little solid footing."

Yep, as Britannia circles the drain, we're sure to see more of just this sorta evil crap. We can anticipate a growing radicalization of the fringes, and even of the vast, silent middle, who observe their nation falling to pieces and look about them for someone to protect them from all the problems that are bound to arise. This will happen to be either the side with the yobbos or the side with the jihadists, in both cases, the vast middle will regret the extremism they find in their camps, but will tolerate it.

36 reine.de.tout  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:08:32am

re: #33 MandyManners

I wonder what Gellar and Spencer think of that.

It will be interesting to see this play out.
Or if they even bother to notice.

37 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:08:40am

The Patriots are playing in Jolly Old England as we speak

38 Varek Raith  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:08:48am

re: #33 MandyManners

I wonder what Gellar and Spencer think of that.

Cognitive dissonance, compartmentalization or both.

39 Sharmuta  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:09:55am

re: #36 reine.de.tout

It will be interesting to see this play out.
Or if they even bother to notice.

I predict *crickets*.

40 MandyManners  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:10:08am

re: #36 reine.de.tout

It will be interesting to see this play out.
Or if they even bother to notice.

There is not a deep-enough cave in which they can hide.

41 MandyManners  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:10:45am

re: #38 Varek Raith

Cognitive dissonance, compartmentalization or both.

Only uppity Jews need fear the BNP?

42 Guanxi88  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:10:48am

re: #33 MandyManners

I wonder what Gellar and Spencer think of that.

re: #38 Varek Raith

Cognitive dissonance, compartmentalization or both.

re: #39 Sharmuta

I predict *crickets*.

They'll say that he was referring to the other politicians, not to the Jews as a group. Any overlap is just that - overlap. They're slick, but not so slick as to render their dodges acceptable.

43 emcesq  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:10:50am

Nazis, Communists - same difference. Seems that not very many people are willing or able to learn from history. As witnessed so many times before, the select few screw things up for the rest. If this is civilization, I want out.

44 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:10:57am

re: #37 _RememberTonyC

The Patriots are playing in Jolly Old England as we speak

And Jolly Young Merriweather has a Pick 6 !

45 Guanxi88  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:11:30am

re: #43 emcesq

If this is civilization, I want out.

You really want to move to Arkansas?

//

46 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:11:42am

re: #44 sattv4u2

And Jolly Young Merriweather has a Pick 6 !

Tally ho, pip pip, etc etc

47 ryannon  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:11:57am

Does this seriously surprise anyone?

Look for similar results across Europe - aside from the usual hard-core fascist creeps, it's a way that ordinary voters there have of expressing their disillusion with mainstream politics and politicians. France's voters were showing similar percentages not long ago. The center-right party took heed and incorporated a number of the more 'acceptable' talking points of the National Front (the French equivalent of the BNP) into their electoral platform. Result: their candidate Nicolas Sarkozy won.

Sarkozy is far from being a racist or anti-semitic, and his party's strategy of adopting a soft version of the National Front's platform was brilliant: the NF has more or less been neutralized as a political force (for the time being), undocumented immigrants are being deported as never before and even though its as ineffectual as ever, the government is seen as having a fairly hard-nosed attitude towards immigrant-generated criminality.

European politicians see results like these as a warning and they generally take heed. Whether this strategy will succeed over the long run is an unknown, but for the time being, it has managed to neutralize the menace of a sizable victory by the Nationalist Right.

48 MandyManners  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:12:59am

re: #42 Guanxi88

They'll say that he was referring to the other politicians, not to the Jews as a group. Any overlap is just that - overlap. They're slick, but not so slick as to render their dodges acceptable.

My No. 41?

49 Varek Raith  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:13:00am

re: #41 MandyManners

Only uppity Jews need fear the BNP?

I'm not gonna even try to analyze the Harpy Queen's thought process.
:)

50 emcesq  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:13:34am

re: #45 Guanxi88

I said civilization

51 MandyManners  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:13:40am

re: #43 emcesq

Nazis, Communists - same difference. Seems that not very many people are willing or able to learn from history. As witnessed so many times before, the select few screw things up for the rest. If this is civilization, I want out.

Uh, what's the alternative?

52 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:14:13am

good cartoon in today's NY Post

[Link: www.nypost.com...]

53 swamprat  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:15:45am

I expect to see a comment here trying to say the BNP isn't really racist.
They will cite the recent change in enrollment standard which was forced upon the BNP by British law.
After the thread goes dead we will probably see a Stacy McCain supporter come wriggling out of the ground.
And then, late in the night we might be so lucky as to see a comment about how we should allow bigotry here because the bigots are either anti-Muslim (hardly a compelling sentiment), or they will state that things are so bad that we should allow the deranged to "help" presumably because we can kick them out later.
I wish it was otherwise, but put me down for my usual comment #200.
We don't need their (bigots) kind around here.

54 Nervous Norvous  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:16:53am

re: #52 _RememberTonyC

The version during the Bush years showed Bush with Fox in his lap and him saying "Why are you the only one that loves me?"

55 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:18:26am

re: #54 PT Barnum

The version during the Bush years showed Bush with Fox in his lap and him saying "Why are you the only one that loves me?"

both are true :)

56 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:18:55am

another pick for Merriwether ... Patriots on fire!

57 MandyManners  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:19:24am

re: #49 Varek Raith

I'm not gonna even try to analyze the Harpy Queen's thought process.
:)

Might cause some mental whiplash.

58 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:19:38am

Lets look at this dipassionately (and NO ,, I am NOT letting the BNP off the hook here for being vile)

Here in the states, those of us who are center right feel as if "nobody speaks for us" We have long complained on here that the far right wingnuts are whacked out, and the (for lack of better terminology) "RINO's have also abandoned us.Now, there is NO way I (or any like me) would turn to a David Duke et al, but we do feel we have no voice.

I travel to the UK occasionally on business and people of my ilk feel the same way. Nobody in the gov't is "for" them. If they see the BNP as restoring some of their voice (and lets not forget, due to their "Empire" England has been well integrated for centuries) thos people are not looking for a race pure England, but merely one that IS England

59 emcesq  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:19:49am

re: #51 MandyManners

That's just it - there isn't any (see above mentioned history). I have been there... (on the "C" side). Like in social, political and economic enterprise, things have to get so bad that thery cannot continue any more (1917 in Russia from abject disaster through communism to equivalent of US in the 20's; Hitler Germany to 1989 Germany, General Motors from 80% share to too early to call).

60 Charles Johnson  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:20:47am

re: #15 Killgore Trout

Harry's place: Arthur Kemp: BNP Reichsminister des Auswärtigen

Harry's Place is getting some recognition in the UK press for their stand against both fascism and Islamic extremism. Good on them.

61 Killgore Trout  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:20:54am

Meanwhile on this side of the pond: Hot Air hosts video of white supremacist blogger RS McCain palling around with Doug Hoffman's campaign staff.
Video: Volunteers for Hoffman Explain the ‘Fight for the Heart and Soul of America’ (green room)

62 Killgore Trout  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:22:12am

re: #60 Charles

Harry's Place is getting some recognition in the UK press for their stand against both fascism and Islamic extremism. Good on them.

Looks like Harry's place is doing a damn fine job these days. They are providing a very important service.

63 MandyManners  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:22:37am

re: #59 emcesq

That's just it - there isn't any (see above mentioned history). I have been there... (on the "C" side). Like in social, political and economic enterprise, things have to get so bad that thery cannot continue any more (1917 in Russia from abject disaster through communism to equivalent of US in the 20's; Hitler Germany to 1989 Germany, General Motors from 80% share to too early to call).

Just call me Little Miss Mary Fucking Sunshine but, I'm not that pessimistic.

64 Killgore Trout  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:23:55am

re: #61 Killgore Trout

At RSM's blog he posts pictures of drinking with the same two guys.

65 Charles Johnson  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:24:33am

But what's up with that horrible intrusive ad that takes over the whole screen for about 10 seconds before you can even click the 'Skip' button, every time you go to their front page? Yikes.

Hurry up, Harry, and either get rid of that, or use a cookie and only show it on the first visit.

66 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:24:55am

OT ,,,

The MAC commercial is hilarious!!

Youtube Video
67 Charles Johnson  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:25:18am

re: #61 Killgore Trout

Meanwhile on this side of the pond: Hot Air hosts video of white supremacist blogger RS McCain palling around with Doug Hoffman's campaign staff.
Video: Volunteers for Hoffman Explain the ‘Fight for the Heart and Soul of America’ (green room)

Yep, they're still hanging with the neo-Confederate. Good luck with that.

68 Killgore Trout  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:25:21am

re: #60 Charles

When I first looked at that pic I was taken in by the Nazi symbol but after a second look I've decided there's nothing sillier that a Brit in a cowboy hat.

69 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:25:57am

re: #65 Charles

It is annoying (at best)

There's no way for me to block it once it pops once?

70 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:26:49am

re: #66 sattv4u2

OT ,,,

The NEW MAC commercial is hilarious!!

[Video]

pimf

71 Varek Raith  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:26:56am

re: #59 emcesq

That's just it - there isn't any (see above mentioned history). I have been there... (on the "C" side). Like in social, political and economic enterprise, things have to get so bad that thery cannot continue any more (1917 in Russia from abject disaster through communism to equivalent of US in the 20's; Hitler Germany to 1989 Germany, General Motors from 80% share to too early to call).

re: #63 MandyManners

Just call me Little Miss Mary Fucking Sunshine but, I'm not that pessimistic.

I'm an Extreeeme Cynicist. Even I'm not that pessimistic.
;-)

72 Athens Runaway  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:26:57am

re: #69 sattv4u2

It is annoying (at best)

There's no way for me to block it once it pops once?

If you have Firefox, try Adblock.

73 Sharmuta  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:26:58am

re: #63 MandyManners

Just call me Little Miss Mary Fucking Sunshine but, I'm not that pessimistic.

Our system was designed with checks and balances specifically so that one executive couldn't cause too much havoc. I have confidence the Constitution will continue to work as it has for 200+ years, but that's just me.

74 MandyManners  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:26:59am

re: #61 Killgore Trout

Meanwhile on this side of the pond: Hot Air hosts video of white supremacist blogger RS McCain palling around with Doug Hoffman's campaign staff.
Video: Volunteers for Hoffman Explain the ‘Fight for the Heart and Soul of America’ (green room)

This morning on Fox, Newt took the outsiders to task for interfering in that election.

75 emcesq  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:27:07am

re: #63 MandyManners

Mandy mind your Manners! - who would have thunk in 1970 the Evil Empire will fold in the 90's? (called you no such thing) Point is that hese things have to hit the bottom before they get any better. Problem is that if you are around when thigs are at the bottom, it is no fun!

76 Nervous Norvous  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:27:14am

OT - removing another fake virus warning malware for a customer. I gotta find these guys and write em a commission check...

77 jaunte  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:28:38am

re: #68 Killgore Trout

When I first looked at that pic I was taken in by the Nazi symbol but after a second look I've decided there's nothing sillier that a Brit in a cowboy hat.

He's probably trying to protect his fair complexion from the harsh British sunlight.

78 MandyManners  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:29:12am

re: #73 Sharmuta

Our system was designed with checks and balances specifically so that one executive couldn't cause too much havoc. I have confidence the Constitution will continue to work as it has for 200+ years, but that's just me.

Does the British system have any sort of checks and balances such as ours?

79 MandyManners  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:30:09am

re: #75 emcesq

Mandy mind your Manners! - who would have thunk in 1970 the Evil Empire will fold in the 90's? (called you no such thing) Point is that hese things have to hit the bottom before they get any better. Problem is that if you are around when thigs are at the bottom, it is no fun!

As Sharmta noted in No. 73, we have a system to mitigate extremism.

80 Bloodnok  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:30:30am

re: #78 MandyManners

Does the British system have any sort of checks and balances such as ours?

They have cheques and balances.

81 MandyManners  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:31:37am

re: #80 Bloodnok

They have cheques and balances.

Veddy witty of you, my good man.

82 arethusa  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:31:57am

re: #78 MandyManners

Does the British system have any sort of checks and balances such as ours?

Not among the branches of government - no legislative, judicial, executive, etc., because it's pretty much all legislative. But the numbers needed for a majority in Parliament do tend to make it difficult for any fringe parties elected to have any serious effect on policy development.

83 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:32:17am

re: #80 Bloodnok

They have cheques and balances.

this month i have written so many checks that i have almost no balance ...

84 Randall Gross  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:32:51am

Apologies if this is already posted

The 17 yr Old who braced Griffin on Question Time

85 Randall Gross  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:33:32am

Charles: are you trying a new CSS? Everything seems much paler here than usual.

86 MandyManners  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:34:52am

re: #82 arethusa

Not among the branches of government - no legislative, judicial, executive, etc., because it's pretty much all legislative. But the numbers needed for a majority in Parliament do tend to make it difficult for any fringe parties elected to have any serious effect on policy development.

It seems more of a muddle than not.

87 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:35:23am

Brady to Welker ... TD ... I hope the Brits are enjoying the new "Brady Bunch"

14-0 New England

88 MandyManners  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:36:00am

re: #85 Thanos

Charles: are you trying a new CSS? Everything seems much paler here than usual.

Is the BNP trying to invade your brain?

89 Varek Raith  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:36:16am

re: #84 Thanos

Apologies if this is already posted

The 17 yr Old who braced Griffin on Question Time

Mr Griffin’s weak answer, that he was no longer a Holocaust denier, but European law prevented him from answering, was met with disbelief and ridicule.

Kind of says is all, doesn't it?

90 Athens Runaway  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:37:05am

re: #85 Thanos

Charles: are you trying a new CSS? Everything seems much paler here than usual.

And I bet you like it, too.

//

91 Varek Raith  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:38:00am

re: #89 Varek Raith

Kind of says is all, doesn't it?

is -> it
PIMF

92 arethusa  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:39:37am

re: #86 MandyManners

It seems more of a muddle than not.

If you think that's a muddle, consider this: Britain has no written constitution. It's in a constant state of flux, since it consists of everything Parliament has ever passed - laws, treaties, etc., etc. The 1688 Bill of Rights is the closest thing they've got.

93 Cato the Elder  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:40:04am

So non-Caucasians can't join?

What about self-hating Jews like a hypothetical British "Atlas"? I thought these parties were all, like, Jew-friendly and pro-Israel 'n' shit now.

Guess not so much.

94 metrolibertarian  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:41:08am

I don't know whether this has been brought up in all the comments in this thread, and I seriously doubt the pollsters actually bothered to do this either, but of the 22% who said they'd consider voting for the British National Party, what percentage of them actually know the party's views on ethnicity, religion, and their history?

Whenever these polls come out people who are aware of the identities and positions of parties and individuals we rightly see as extreme think that everyone else is at least somewhat similarly aware of the extremist positions of groups like BNP Vlaams Belang, or Ron Paul. In fact, and I'm not a gambling man, but I'd wager that many of those who support the BNP might only be aware of their opposition to British involvement in Iraq (a very popular position for anyone to take in the UK) and a more Anglo-centric economic focus (I saw the sort of push-polling vids the BNP released before the UK's last election, and the economic questions they asked were things like "Do you think Britain should have people overseas doing jobs that Britons could do themselves just as well?").

The support would dry up to maybe the same level as Bible Pa--- I mean "Constitution" Party candidate Charles Baldwin's (the man "Doctor" Ron Paul [the man doesn't believe in evolution, the only reason he didn't raise his hand was because he thought the question "inappropriate] endorsed for President last year) if the British public was as aware of the BNP's position on issues of race, religious freedom, and things of that nature.

95 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:42:00am

New England is about to drop the hammer on Tampa ...

Is anyone on here from the UK? Are you guys getting the NFL game on TV?

96 MandyManners  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:42:54am

re: #92 arethusa

If you think that's a muddle, consider this: Britain has no written constitution. It's in a constant state of flux, since it consists of everything Parliament has ever passed - laws, treaties, etc., etc. The 1688 Bill of Rights is the closest thing they've got.

Makes me appreciate the American government even more.

97 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:43:06am

re: #95 _RememberTonyC

New England is about to drop the hammer on Tampa ...

Is anyone on here from the UK? Are you guys getting the NFL game on TV?

You could have asked me that!

The answer is YES. It's being broadcast throughout Europe, as is the Pitt/ Minn gane

98 metrolibertarian  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:43:30am

re: #96 MandyManners

Makes me appreciate the American government even more.

Communist!

/sarc

99 MandyManners  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:43:45am

re: #93 Cato the Elder

So non-Caucasians can't join?

What about self-hating Jews like a hypothetical British "Atlas"? I thought these parties were all, like, Jew-friendly and pro-Israel 'n' shit now.

Guess not so much.

You might want to take a gander at Kilgore's No. 8.

100 Killgore Trout  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:44:15am

re: #74 MandyManners

This morning on Fox, Newt took the outsiders to task for interfering in that election.

Good for him. I have no love for any of the candidates involved but there's a lot of money and influence behind the scenes and I think the average conservative support this stuff has no idea what they're doing.

101 MandyManners  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:44:43am

re: #98 metrolibertarian

Communist!

/sarc

I was one but, I got smart.

102 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:44:44am

re: #97 sattv4u2

You could have asked me that!

The answer is YES. It's being broadcast throughout Europe, as is the Pitt/ Minn gane


WTF was I thinking?

103 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:46:28am

Sat ... who is airing the NFL games in the UK? Free TV or Pay TV?

104 MandyManners  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:47:27am

re: #100 Killgore Trout

Good for him. I have no love for any of the candidates involved but there's a lot of money and influence behind the scenes and I think the average conservative support this stuff has no idea what they're doing.

He basically described Scozzafava as a "RINO" who is supported by the NRA.

105 Cato the Elder  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:48:10am

re: #92 arethusa

If you think that's a muddle, consider this: Britain has no written constitution. It's in a constant state of flux, since it consists of everything Parliament has ever passed - laws, treaties, etc., etc. The 1688 Bill of Rights is the closest thing they've got.

Believe me, at this stage they're better off as they are. Trying to write a constitution today would result in a 300-page monster like the asinine thing the Euros tried to foist on their citizens.

106 bratwurst  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:48:12am

re: #103 _RememberTonyC

On the continent there is the ESPN-owned NASN (North American Sports Network) on cable that shows 3 games every Sunday.

107 Cato the Elder  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:49:23am

re: #99 MandyManners

You might want to take a gander at Kilgore's No. 8.

Pamela will still find a way to justify that.

108 Sharmuta  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:49:39am

re: #94 metrolibertarian

I don't know whether this has been brought up in all the comments in this thread, and I seriously doubt the pollsters actually bothered to do this either, but of the 22% who said they'd consider voting for the British National Party, what percentage of them actually know the party's views on ethnicity, religion, and their history?

Did you try reading the link?

Griffin used his appearance on the BBC’s Question Time to tell a record audience for the show of more than 8 million people that the nation should “shut the door” on immigrants, Islam is incompatible with British culture, and war-time leader Winston Churchill would have belonged to his party.

Further down:

YouGov polled 1,314 voters across Britain on Oct. 22-23 after Question Time aired. The data was weighted to conform with the U.K.’s demographic profile, the paper said, without giving a margin of error.

Seems the BNP/Griffin had plenty of exposure for 1300 people to have a good enough idea of the party's ideology.

109 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:49:46am

The GOP will get nowhere with Independent female voters if they don't either deemphasize or eliminate abortion as a preeminent issue.

110 Pass The Moonbaticide  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:50:00am

The current support for the BNP is not due to any positive agreement with their policies by the British people, but is ny way of a reaction against all the mainline parties due ti the Expenses Scandal. ( Wiki Link )

Once our MPs sort their own disgraceful behaviour out, then support from the common British people will recover and the fringe parties will return there.

111 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:50:50am

re: #106 bratwurst

On the continent there is the ESPN-owned NASN (North American Sports Network) on cable that shows 3 games every Sunday.

so you need to have pay TV to see NFL in the UK?

112 bratwurst  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:51:39am

re: #111 _RememberTonyC

Only game you get on broadcast TV in Germany is the Super Bowl...I suspect it is the same deal in the UK.

113 MandyManners  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:51:47am

re: #107 Cato the Elder

Pamela will still find a way to justify that.

I honestly don't see how.

114 Randall Gross  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:52:18am

re: #100 Killgore Trout

Good for him. I have no love for any of the candidates involved but there's a lot of money and influence behind the scenes and I think the average conservative support this stuff has no idea what they're doing.

Now MM and crowd hate Newt btw, he's pretty much announced that he's no longer a figurehead or leader along with that, that it is time for new people to take over.

115 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:52:44am

re: #112 bratwurst

Only game you get on broadcast TV in Germany is the Super Bowl...I suspect it is the same deal in the UK.

thanks ... same deal with the NBA?

116 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:52:59am

re: #103 _RememberTonyC

Sat ... who is airing the NFL games in the UK? Free TV or Pay TV?

Free.

For games that are being played in the states, a British company called IMG has the rights. They pick 4 games per Sunday and we send them up to a US to Europe satellite (typically AB 1 and NSS 7. "Channels" in Europe, North Africa dn the Middle East pay IMG for the rights. Some brroadcast the games live while others tape tyhem and will show them tomorrow

For todays Pats game we have a working agreement with a teleport in England. They take the game via fiber from Wmbley and broadcast it Europe to Europe via satellite at the same time semding it back to us via fiber where we convert it to NTSC then pass it on to CBS

117 bratwurst  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:53:49am

re: #115 _RememberTonyC

thanks ... same deal with the NBA?

Oh yeah...there is hardly any German soccer on broadcast TV these days!

118 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:55:01am

re: #116 sattv4u2

Free.

For games that are being played in the states, a British company called IMG has the rights. They pick 4 games per Sunday and we send them up to a US to Europe satellite (typically AB 1 and NSS 7. "Channels" in Europe, North Africa dn the Middle East pay IMG for the rights. Some brroadcast the games live while others tape tyhem and will show them tomorrow

For todays Pats game we have a working agreement with a teleport in England. They take the game via fiber from Wmbley and broadcast it Europe to Europe via satellite at the same time semding it back to us via fiber where we convert it to NTSC then pass it on to CBS

That is a lot of hops for the signal. I have noticed a few video glitches on the CBS feed ...

TD PATS!!

119 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:55:04am

TD ,, Patriots

120 [deleted]  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:55:43am
121 Killgore Trout  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:56:15am

Tea Parties on the wrong side of history...
Big gain in GDP would show end of deep recession


The U.S. economy probably grew at a healthy pace in the third quarter of the year, the first economic growth in a year and a strong sign that the worst recession in the postwar era is over, economists say.

Helped by massive government stimulus that supported consumer spending and residential investments, U.S. gross national product probably rose at a an annual rate of 3.5% in the third quarter after plunging by 3.8% in the past year, according to the median forecasts of economists surveyed by MarketWatch.

The GDP numbers will be released on Thursday. GDP will be the top headline in a fairly busy week for economic data.

122 Athens Runaway  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:56:43am

Okay, who had #120 for the Flounce pool?

123 Varek Raith  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:57:01am

re: #120 GW

Flounce!

124 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:57:32am

120 ... a Classic Textbook Flounce ...

future generations will use it as a template ...

125 Killgore Trout  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:57:37am

re: #123 Varek Raith

BNP flounce!

126 MandyManners  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:57:54am

re: #120 GW

Are you stomping your widdle foot yet?

127 Guanxi88  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:58:15am

re: #85 Thanos

Charles: are you trying a new CSS? Everything seems much paler here than usual.

Blog just needs to eat a bit more liver. Kinda anemic

128 tradewind  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:58:41am

re: #126 MandyManners

Already Gone.
Usually I miss 'em completely, that one hung in there long enough to read.

129 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:58:56am

re: #117 bratwurst

Oh yeah...there is hardly any German soccer on broadcast TV these days!


bummer ... Dirk Nowitzki is a great dude, by the way.

130 XopXproxyX  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:59:34am

Yikes, bowing out in a BNP thread is like saying "I support the BNP, how dare you speak ill of them!".
Pathetic.

131 tradewind  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 10:59:59am

re: #127 Guanxi88

/Don't eat liver... it's the clearinghouse for toxins in whatever has one./

132 Guanxi88  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:00:22am

The flounce thing still eludes me - if your last words are gonna disappear forever into the ether, why bother saying anything at all? Just go, already!

133 Killgore Trout  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:00:32am

Did we lose Iceweasel? I haven't seen her post in a while.

134 Guanxi88  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:01:00am

re: #131 tradewind

/Don't eat liver... it's the clearinghouse for toxins in whatever has one./

So my family were trying to poison me all those years? Well, it would fit in with other things I know about them...

135 MandyManners  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:01:03am

re: #128 tradewind

Already Gone.
Usually I miss 'em completely, that one hung in there long enough to read.

Maybe Mr. Beaumont has a crick in his neck making it harder to swing his stick.

136 Sharmuta  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:01:05am

re: #120 GW

If you think LGF was better when it was filled with two-faced haters, then I'm glad to see you go. Enjoy the fleas at 2.

137 Varek Raith  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:01:30am

re: #132 Guanxi88

The flounce thing still eludes me - if your last words are gonna disappear forever into the ether, why bother saying anything at all? Just go, already!

Some weird-ass psychological thing/fetish, no doubt.

138 MandyManners  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:02:16am

Gotta' go see if The Kid has cleaned the kitchen.

139 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:02:17am

re: #121 Killgore Trout

Helped by massive government stimulus

You keep linking to articles that state that, but it's actually not so

The "massive gov't stimulus" monies aren't even printed yet, let alone being distributed and let alone spent. The big money projects aren't even scheduled till 3rd Q 2010.

There was a story here in Atlanta this past week about Kia rolling out their 1st car in a new plant they opened here. 1200 jobs!
The writer credited the 'stimulus" for creating those jobs. Problem is, the plant was planned 3 years ago and built last year. The 'jobs" were being filled before ANY stimulus talk started
Again, it was TARP that cushioned the fall and stabilized things.

140 SixDegrees  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:02:21am

re: #121 Killgore Trout

Just a note: although I certainly hope and even expect there to be growth shown in the third quarter, the growth is being measured relative to the preceding quarter. Positive growth is certainly a good thing, but it's important to keep in mind that is growth measured against the truly awful.

Just as the "classical" definition of a recession is two consecutive quarters of GDP shrinkage (although in reality, things are more complex than this) it isn't unreasonable to wait until we see two or more consecutive quarters of reasonable growth before breaking out the champagne.

141 Guanxi88  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:02:59am

re: #131 tradewind

/Don't eat liver... it's the clearinghouse for toxins in whatever has one./

Besides, I know from my colleagues that the Lover is the store-house of Blood, and is responsible for regulating and directing the flow of Qi. No, honestly, that's what they say.

142 tradewind  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:03:08am

re: #134 Guanxi88
:)
I'm sure they meant well. Besides, I did have a half sarc attached...

143 Guanxi88  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:03:21am

re: #141 Guanxi88

Besides, I know from my colleagues that the Lover LIVER is the store-house of Blood, and is responsible for regulating and directing the flow of Qi. No, honestly, that's what they say.

144 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:03:30am

re: #133 Killgore Trout

Did we lose Iceweasel? I haven't seen her post in a while.

She made a cameo a few days ago saying she was on a double super secret mission

What about Salamantis?

145 bratwurst  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:05:54am

re: #129 _RememberTonyC

It IS a bummer...I think it is hurting the popularity of the game. If you are not already a fan of professional soccer in Germany, there is basically no way you will become one because there are a grand total of TWO games on broadcast TV per season. Of course, there are few people in the country who are not within an hour of a stadium of a team in the top two leagues.

146 Nervous Norvous  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:06:01am

re: #143 Guanxi88

I actually like liver, but only once maybe 4 or 5 years...

147 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:06:15am

re: #133 Killgore Trout

Did we lose Iceweasel? I haven't seen her post in a while.

I don't know, I've been working and neglecting LGF. Who has outside connections to drop a line?

148 Political Atheist  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:06:33am

I'm curious enough about the connections between white supremacists and the Tea Party Express. They are having an event near enough to me for me to grab a couple cameras and an assistant and go. If anyone has links or b/g on these guys I could read up on before I go I would really appreciate it. Its today in about 5 or 6 hours.

I'm curious about the likely mix of fiscCons, soCons, tin hatters etc. Click my nic for offline links. Thanks Lizards!

149 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:07:00am

by the way ... FOX has made a very important hire, luring John Stossel away from ABC. He will add a lot of credibility to FOX with his sensible right of center moderate take.

I expect his shows to do very well on FNC and FOX Business Channel.

150 Sharmuta  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:07:16am

re: #147 BigPapa

I don't know, I've been working and neglecting LGF. Who has outside connections to drop a line?

Vacation.

151 bluecheese  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:07:27am

re: #133 Killgore Trout

Did you ever get around to the noodle experiment last night?

152 Nervous Norvous  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:07:35am

re: #149 _RememberTonyC

You missed the sarc tag...oh, you were serious...

153 Guanxi88  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:07:38am

re: #146 PT Barnum

I actually like liver, but only once maybe 4 or 5 years...

I loved the way my dear old mother cooked it - she made sure it was exactly the texture and density of a Dr. Scholl's gel shoe insert, with some burnt onions to add insult to injury. Ahh, memories...

154 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:07:50am

re: #137 Varek Raith

Some weird-ass psychological thing/fetish, no doubt.

I don't think it's weird at all, it's 'look at me.'

On the internet with little to no recourse inhibitions are thin if any.

155 tradewind  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:08:13am

Incoming golden ret dragging leash...hint?
Later.

156 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:08:29am

re: #149 _RememberTonyC

by the way ... FOX has made a very important hire, luring John Stossel away from ABC. He will add a lot of credibility to FOX with his sensible right of center moderate take.

I expect his shows to do very well on FNC and FOX Business Channel.

Stossel thrown under the "Serious Journalist" bus in 5, 4, 3, ,,,

157 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:08:37am

re: #145 bratwurst

It IS a bummer...I think it is hurting the popularity of the game. If you are not already a fan of professional soccer in Germany, there is basically no way you will become one because there are a grand total of TWO games on broadcast TV per season. Of course, there are few people in the country who are not within an hour of a stadium of a team in the top two leagues.


Here in the states, boxing has gone down that road. I cannot recall a single boxing match on free TV in many years.

158 Nervous Norvous  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:08:42am

re: #153 Guanxi88

My mom actually was pretty good at it..she'd carmelize the onions just perfect and she sliced the liver very thin, which made it much less livery..if you know what I mean...

159 Guanxi88  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:09:44am

re: #158 PT Barnum

My mom actually was pretty good at it..she'd carmelize the onions just perfect and she sliced the liver very thin, which made it much less livery..if you know what I mean...

My mother had many gifts, but cooking was not one of them. My stepfather, by contrast, was an excellent cook and a first-rate baker into the bargain.

160 samsgran1948  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:09:47am

Guanxi, Lostlakehiker and Ryannon are kind of close to what I'm thinking: Mainstream Brits have been pushed pretty hard by the PC crowd. Britain is host to a large community of outsiders who voice so much hate for the British nation and British culture. They are told that if they want the newcomers to merge into the British culture, they are narrow-minded, bigoted racists. They see what they think are too many instances of British culture being forced to submit to an alien culture in the name of inclusiveness. The economy sucks, as does the job market. It's certainly understandable that a lot of Brits are beginning to resent this alien population.

161 bratwurst  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:10:53am

re: #157 _RememberTonyC

Here in the states, boxing has gone down that road. I cannot recall a single boxing match on free TV in many years.

I am back in the US now, but you are right. I remember as a kid how people freaked out the first time they had to go to a closed circuit location to watch Ali fight!

162 Political Atheist  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:10:56am

re: #160 samsgran1948

Sounds like a "poll flounce" really just an act of frustration.

163 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:11:07am

re: #156 sattv4u2

Stossel thrown under the "Serious Journalist" bus in 5, 4, 3, ,,,


Stossel can take care of himself. The haters will be pisssed when the masses are reminded that moderate voices on the right are the most believable voices out there.

164 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:11:25am

re: #160 samsgran1948

((I think I said that in 58!)))

/

165 Cato the Elder  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:11:26am

re: #113 MandyManners

I honestly don't see how.

Just wait.

166 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:12:20am

re: #161 bratwurst

I am back in the US now, but you are right. I remember as a kid how people freaked out the first time they had to go to a closed circuit location to watch Ali fight!

For me is was the Pilgrim Theatre in Malden Mass

167 Varek Raith  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:12:32am

re: #154 BigPapa

I don't think it's weird at all, it's 'look at me.'

On the internet with little to no recourse inhibitions are thin if any.

This is a good theory to keep in mind while on teh Interwebz.
:)
/contains possibly offensive language.

168 bratwurst  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:12:49am

re: #163 _RememberTonyC

Stossel can take care of himself. The haters will be pisssed when the masses are reminded that moderate voices on the right are the most believable voices out there.

I agree. Already saw him and O'Reilly mix it up...Stossel wouldn't back down on his common sense reaction to the current administration's stance on medical marijuana.

169 Nervous Norvous  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:13:08am

re: #159 Guanxi88

My dad was a great baker. Although one Thanksgiving he scared me...he was baking in the kitchen watching the Macy's parade when he just doubled over...I thought he was having a heart attack until I heard him laughing.

Turned out Katie Couric was hosting (this was a while back) and Richard Simmons was on hawking some snack thing he was selling. So he pranced off to throw out some samples, and Katie said (with a straight face) there goes Richard Simmons, he's going to toss his cookies all over the crowd.

Makes me roll everytime I think of it. I told that story at his funeral just cause that's the kind of guy he was.

170 Political Atheist  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:14:01am

re: #164 sattv4u2

You did and I agree with both of you. Its a similar phenomenon to what I call the "likable lie". The birth certificate polls lately, and way back under Bush 43 after the Iraq invasion the truther crap from the left.

171 Nervous Norvous  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:14:06am

re: #168 bratwurst

Although Stossell is one of those Global Warming not real apologists, so I'm not terribly impressed by the man.

172 Athens Runaway  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:14:16am

re: #163 _RememberTonyC

Stossel can take care of himself. The haters will be pisssed when the masses are reminded that moderate voices on the right are the most believable voices out there.

Stossel is a libertarian. Take that as you will

173 Nervous Norvous  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:14:51am

re: #172 Athens Runaway

Is he a small government libertarian or an I've got mine, so fuck you libertarian?

174 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:15:06am

Sat ... this Patriots feed on CBS has more glitches than the iranian election ...

flip a switch or something :)

175 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:15:20am

re: #163 _RememberTonyC

5,4,3,2,1 came sooner than I imagined!!!

176 bratwurst  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:15:25am

re: #171 PT Barnum

Although Stossell is one of those Global Warming not real apologists, so I'm not terribly impressed by the man.

I have a lot of problems with the guy, but he is at least consistent.

177 Political Atheist  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:15:26am

re: #173 PT Barnum

What is an FU libertarian?

178 Randall Gross  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:15:57am

re: #160 samsgran1948

Are you saying you'd vote for the BNP as well?

179 Nervous Norvous  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:16:15am

re: #177 rightwingconspirator

The IGMFU are the libertarians who argue that everyone should fend for themselves entirely.

180 Taqyia2Me  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:16:17am

re: #176 bratwurst

I have a lot of problems with the guy, but he is at least consistent.

Here, here on that comment...consistent for quite a lot of years now.

181 Athens Runaway  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:16:32am

re: #173 PT Barnum

Is he a small government libertarian or an I've got mine, so fuck you libertarian?

As far as I can tell, "small government libertarian."

182 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:16:37am

re: #174 _RememberTonyC

Sat ... this Patriots feed on CBS has more glitches than the iranian election ...

flip a switch or something :)

Must be your cable/ sat/ local affiliate company

I'm watching it right of the European bird, as well as the fiber from England, as well as DISH Network and the local Atlanta CBS affiliate

No problems on any of them

183 Political Atheist  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:17:53am

re: #179 PT Barnum

Ah the anarchist wing. Our parallel to the wingnuts. Can't stand that attitude. Had a struggle with the black mask anarchists at the DNC in Los Angeles.

184 lurking faith  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:18:00am

re: #85 Thanos

Charles: are you trying a new CSS? Everything seems much paler here than usual.

Did someone say pale?

Youtube Video
185 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:18:57am

re: #175 sattv4u2

5,4,3,2,1 came sooner than I imagined!!!

Stossel has always been tough to pin down ... these people who want to label him will have a tough time ... he is a pro and a solid journalist. And if he is a skeptic on the whole climate change issue, that is fine by me. I need to learn more before I decide on that particular issue.

186 Nervous Norvous  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:19:08am

re: #179 PT Barnum

Of Course the IGMSFY Libertarians are usually those with means, hence the I've Got Mine part of the equation.

I'm for personally shared responsibility. We all have to take care of ourselves, but we also need to take care of our community, however large or small that may be.

The first without the latter is anarchy, the latter without the first is fascism.

187 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:19:32am

re: #182 sattv4u2

Must be your cable/ sat/ local affiliate company

I'm watching it right of the European bird, as well as the fiber from England, as well as DISH Network and the local Atlanta CBS affiliate

No problems on any of them

Comcast strikes again :(

188 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:20:08am

TD ,, Tamp Bay

21- (soon to be ) 7

189 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:22:11am

re: #186 PT Barnum

I'm for personally shared responsibility. We all have to take care of ourselves, but we also need to take care of our community

So what do you beleive a fair percentage of "mine" should be mandated to "take care of the community"?

190 Political Atheist  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:23:49am

re: #189 sattv4u2

Of course PT can speak to your point but you read it different than I did. When he said "personally" I too that as voluntary. That was my interp anyway.

191 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:24:36am

re: #190 rightwingconspirator

Of course PT can speak to your point but you read it different than I did. When he said "personally" I too that as voluntary. That was my interp anyway.

After his denounciation of Libretarian, I think not. THAT would be "voluntary"

192 Political Atheist  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:27:52am

re: #186 PT Barnum

re: #191 sattv4u2

PT, care to clarify?

193 Guanxi88  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:29:56am

re: #166 sattv4u2

For me is was the Pilgrim Theatre in Malden Mass

Pilgrim Theatre, eh? There was a theatre by that name in Beantown, as I recall. Had quite the well-deserved and shady reputation. How bad was it? Pee Wee Herman wouldn't have set foot in the lobby. I understand they've revitalized the old Combat Zone.

194 Nervous Norvous  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:30:52am

re: #191 sattv4u2

I don't know what a fair percentage is, other than it has to be tied in some way to what one actually produces. I personally think that income received for moving great piles of money around should be taxed at a much higher rate than actually creating something of value.

The problem with IGMSFY libertarians is that they seem to think that the split of MINE should be around 95%.

If you're suggesting the tax system should be voluntary, I have a really great pill to enlarge your penis I'd like to sell you. Just send me your credit card number. :)

195 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:32:12am

re: #193 Guanxi88

Pilgrim Theatre, eh? There was a theatre by that name in Beantown, as I recall. Had quite the well-deserved and shady reputation. How bad was it? Pee Wee Herman wouldn't have set foot in the lobby. I understand they've revitalized the old Combat Zone.

The 'Zone is no more ...

196 Guanxi88  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:34:18am

re: #194 PT Barnum

Your position isn't really all that radical, although I disagree on principle with the idea of taxing income. I'd prefer to tax property and sales. Income, though, probably shouldn't be taxed. We want to encourage thrift and investment, but these virtues result in income, and whatsoever we tax, we discourage.

I say, let someone make all he or she can, but tax them when they buy anything.

197 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:34:53am

re: #194 PT Barnum

If you're suggesting the tax system should be voluntary
Where on earth did I ever suggest that

And as far as income received for moving great piles of money around should be taxed at a much higher rate see how well businesses pay out on 401Ks and benefits after you try that for a quarter!

"Punish Success" would be a GREAT campaign slogan!
/

198 Nervous Norvous  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:35:04am

re: #192 rightwingconspirator

one other thought on this...it strikes me that there is a great deal of faith that under a libertarian system people would magically share on their own. I think several thousand years of human history would put that to rest.

The Chinese philosopher Mencius (don't know the actual chinese name) said that human nature was to strive for advantage. The longer I live, the more I agree with him.

199 Guanxi88  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:35:21am

re: #195 _RememberTonyC

The 'Zone is no more ...

Kinda sad, really. Eh, who am I kidding, the place was a dump and a blight on the town. Saw that the Pilgrim in Boston has its won website and appears to be some kinds art-house theatre now. Good for them.

200 Guanxi88  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:37:15am

re: #198 PT Barnum


The Chinese philosopher Mencius (don't know the actual chinese name) said that human nature was to strive for advantage. The longer I live, the more I agree with him.

So why fight human nature? Why not co-opt and direct it, such that it is impossible to do well without benefiting your fellows? Income taxation seems like it would discourage income-generating activities, while letting sales go largely untaxed seems to encourage spending. Neither is a desirable state of affairs.

201 Nervous Norvous  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:37:29am

re: #197 sattv4u2

You seemed to have an issue with the idea that the government was "taking" people's money involuntarily, so I took that to it's illogical conclusion.

I don't have a problem with rewarding success, provided that success actually makes something of value.

As far as 401ks...have you looked at yours lately? Mine is down substantially, precisely because our economy stopped being about making things some time ago.

202 Achilles Tang  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:37:42am

re: #143 Guanxi88

re: #141 Guanxi88

Besides, I know from my colleagues that the Lover LIVER is the store-house of Blood, and is responsible for regulating and directing the flow of Qi. No, honestly, that's what they say.


Reading the first version I thought, "hey, maybe some of all this Chinese superstition actually makes sense"; but no, you have to spoil it..

203 Guanxi88  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:39:49am

re: #202 Naso Tang

Reading the first version I thought, "hey, maybe some of all this Chinese superstition actually makes sense"; but no, you have to spoil it..

Well, it's a funny thing, this whole TCM theory. They use the name of organs as sort of metaphors to describe processes. When they say "Oh, you got a bad Liver," they don't mean you've got jaundice or hepatitis. Some of the guys I work with are honest-to-goodness MD's who still resort to use of this metaphorical system of interpretation and explanation when they practice TCM.

As one of them told me (an MD and PhD): "The theory is criminally insane, but the practice works."

204 thecommodore  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:39:55am

Didn't David Duke run for governor of Louisiana or Senator and get something like 44% of the vote?

I think this was 1990 or 91. No?

205 Nervous Norvous  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:39:58am

re: #200 Guanxi88

I personally think a national sales tax is a better choice, but it disproportionately affects those who spend everything they earn, as opposed to those who have more than they need.

Those with more than they need are therefore incentivized to not spend what they have so that they never pay taxes on it.

206 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:40:25am

re: #201 PT Barnum

the government was "taking" people's money involuntarily,

Again ,, I never said that (((although it is funny that those that state the tax rate is too LOW don't 'volunteer" to send more than what they owe)))

I asked you a simple mathamatical question. Repeat

In that it is mandatory to pay taxes, what percentage is anyones income should be taxed?

207 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:41:36am

re: #201 PT Barnum

As far as 401ks...have you looked at yours lately

And yes, I have. It's gained ALMOST all "lost" ((and you really didn't 'lose' anything unless you cashed out while it was down from a high)

208 Nervous Norvous  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:42:10am

re: #206 sattv4u2

And I have stated I don't know what a fair percentage is. It's more complicated than that, in my opinion.

209 Achilles Tang  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:42:20am

re: #198 PT Barnum

one other thought on this...it strikes me that there is a great deal of faith that under a libertarian system people would magically share on their own. I think several thousand years of human history would put that to rest.

The Chinese philosopher Mencius (don't know the actual chinese name) said that human nature was to strive for advantage. The longer I live, the more I agree with him.

Humans strive for advantage over foreigners, like those who live two blocks away and are not at least 2nd cousins./

We have however evolved to share with family, however we care to define that word.

210 Guanxi88  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:42:41am

re: #205 PT Barnum

I personally think a national sales tax is a better choice, but it disproportionately affects those who spend everything they earn, as opposed to those who have more than they need.

Those with more than they need are therefore incentivized to not spend what they have so that they never pay taxes on it.

Perfect, let them keep it in the banks and in the markets, where it can go to wrok and be lent out to others.

As for the effect on the impoverished, I daresay certain categories of basic goods could be exempt, or subject to such minimal taxation as to not effect the poor more than they need to be. I've lived in poverty for some years now, and so I am all too familiar with the fact that many people are compelled to spend all they make, and any system that helps the state at the expense of the poor is every bit as repugnant as any alternative.

211 XopXproxyX  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:42:50am

re: #173 PT Barnum

I think he is a "you say something and I'll say the exact opposite!" libertarian.

212 Nervous Norvous  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:43:01am

re: #209 Naso Tang

Except that the size of our family has gotten smaller and smaller and smaller...

213 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:43:31am

Sigh..."A true-born Englishman’s a contradiction,
In speech an irony, in fact a fiction." Daniel Defoe-1703

Thus from a mixture of all kinds began,
That het’rogeneous thing, an Englishman:
In eager rapes, and furious lust begot,
Betwixt a painted Britain and a Scot.
Whose gend’ring off-spring quickly learn’d to bow,
And yoke their heifers to the Roman plough:
From whence a mongrel half-bred race there came,
With neither name, nor nation, speech nor fame.
In whose hot veins new mixtures quickly ran,
Infus’d betwixt a Saxon and a Dane.
While their rank daughters, to their parents just,
Receiv’d all nations with promiscuous lust.
This nauseous brood directly did contain
The well-extracted blood of Englishmen.
Which medly canton’d in a heptarchy,
A rhapsody of nations to supply,
Among themselves maintain’d eternal wars,
And still the ladies lov’d the conquerors.


The western Angles all the rest subdu’d;
A bloody nation, barbarous and rude:
Who by the tenure of the sword possest
One part of Britain, and subdu’d the rest
And as great things denominate the small,
The conqu’ring part gave title to the whole.
The Scot, Pict, Britain, Roman, Dane, submit,
And with the English-Saxon all unite:
And these the mixture have so close pursu’d,
The very name and memory’s subdu’d:
No Roman now, no Britain does remain;
Wales strove to separate, but strove in vain:
The silent nations undistinguish’d fall,
And Englishman’s the common name for all.
Fate jumbled them together, God knows how;
What e’er they were they’re true-born English now.


The wonder which remains is at our pride,
To value that which all wise men deride.
For Englishmen to boast of generation,
Cancels their knowledge, and lampoons the nation.
A true-born Englishman’s a contradiction,
In speech an irony, in fact a fiction.
A banter made to be a test of fools,
Which those that use it justly ridicules.
A metaphor invented to express
A man a-kin to all the universe.


For as the Scots, as learned men ha’ said,
Throughout the world their wand’ring seed ha’ spread;
So open-handed England, ’tis believ’d,
Has all the gleanings of the world receiv’d.


Some think of England ’twas our Saviour meant,
The Gospel should to all the world be sent:
Since, when the blessed sound did hither reach,
They to all nations might be said to preach.


’Tis well that virtue gives nobility,
How shall we else the want of birth and blood supply?
Since scarce one family is left alive,
Which does not from some foreigner derive.

The English bitching about immigrants and race mixing makes no damn sense as Defoe tried to point out all the way back in 1703. We make even less sense bitching about it over here considering we are all immigrants as of just a couple of hundred years ago. It's scary that so many seem to have forgotten that.

214 Guanxi88  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:43:47am

re: #211 XopXproxyX

I think he is a "you say something and I'll say the exact opposite!" libertarian.

At least he's not one of those tiresome Ayn Rand cultists.

215 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:45:25am

re: #208 PT Barnum

And I have stated I don't know what a fair percentage is. It's more complicated than that, in my opinion.

yet you can denounce a view that DOES ((although no libretarian that I have ever seen or heard has stated ZERO for them and 95% for someone else)) (((The problem with IGMSFY libertarians is that they seem to think that the split of MINE should be around 95%.)))

216 PAUL_MACDONALD  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:45:50am

I haven't browsed through the comments, nor have I clicked the link. I will leave this observation as it is halftime: The Brits, like we Canucks, have a Parliamentary democracy. The 22% could amount to no seats, or a whole bunch depending on the regional breakdown.

Consider that the Bloc Quebecios get ~10% of the popular vote but garner about 30% of the seats due to them being a regional party. 22% in the UK could land enough seats to grant them official party status.

217 Nervous Norvous  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:45:56am

re: #210 Guanxi88

The whole point is to make it so that the impoverished can quit being impoverished at some point. Much of libertarianism smacks of Social Darwinism.

218 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:48:41am

re: #205 PT Barnum

I personally think a national sales tax is a better choice, but it disproportionately affects those who spend everything they earn, as opposed to those who have more than they need

The Fair Tax proposal actually addresses that "problem"

219 Guanxi88  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:49:07am

re: #217 PT Barnum

The whole point is to make it so that the impoverished can quit being impoverished at some point. Much of libertarianism smacks of Social Darwinism.

At the fringes, I think you're right. Poverty is a treatable social condition, and is not always the result of personal failure.

220 Achilles Tang  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:49:40am

re: #205 PT Barnum

I personally think a national sales tax is a better choice, but it disproportionately affects those who spend everything they earn, as opposed to those who have more than they need.

Those with more than they need are therefore incentivized to not spend what they have so that they never pay taxes on it.

That doesn't make any sensible point to me, as an argument against a sales tax.

Those who spend everything they earn typically spend it proportionately more on things they don't need than those who can save. All you need to do to verify that is go to a supermarket and check out what's in the carts of those paying with food stamps.

As to not spending to avoid taxes, I don't buy it. One saves for other reasons, and in any case one of the problems with our economic model is that we have too little savings and too much debt, as individuals.

221 bigred1961  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:51:22am

It sounds like the British people (or at least some of them) are sick of business as usual in the UK. I am not in any way defending the views or platforms of the BNP. In fact, I think they are revolting, but I can kind of see where an uninformed person might find them attractive. I stress an uninformed person.
Business as usual in the UK has brought the following:
1) Almost unlimited Muslim immigration
2) Many of whom are uninterested in becoming a part of British society
3) Radical Islamic preachers who preach the destruction of the very society that they have sought asylum in
4) Above radical preachers do their preaching while on public assistance with multiple families to increase the public assistance
5) Seemingly endless accommodations to the Islamic faith, often at the expense of the rest of society.
I think the British pols should be very frightened by these polls because it's obvious that a segment (possibly a large segment) of the UK population is sick and tired of the way things have become.

Again, this is NOT a defense of the BNP.

222 Achilles Tang  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 11:55:44am

re: #212 PT Barnum

Except that the size of our family has gotten smaller and smaller and smaller...

To the contrary, I think it has grown to unmanageable size.

The evolutionary family was probably only a few dozen people, with maybe a few dozen more "friends" nearby. These days we try to pretend we are family if one is black, white, Jewish, Baptist, Muslim and so on, and then we try to say the same if "we" are human. Unfortunately our brains can't ignore the differences we see anyway.

223 Varek Raith  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 12:00:47pm

re: #221 bigred1961

It sounds like the British people (or at least some of them) are sick of business as usual in the UK. I am not in any way defending the views or platforms of the BNP. In fact, I think they are revolting, but I can kind of see where an uninformed person might find them attractive. I stress an uninformed person.
Business as usual in the UK has brought the following:
1) Almost unlimited Muslim immigration
2) Many of whom are uninterested in becoming a part of British society
3) Radical Islamic preachers who preach the destruction of the very society that they have sought asylum in
4) Above radical preachers do their preaching while on public assistance with multiple families to increase the public assistance
5) Seemingly endless accommodations to the Islamic faith, often at the expense of the rest of society.
I think the British pols should be very frightened by these polls because it's obvious that a segment (possibly a large segment) of the UK population is sick and tired of the way things have become.

Again, this is NOT a defense of the BNP.

That's still a really pathetic excuse. I could never, ever vote for the like of the BNP. Even if they were the last political party on Earth.

224 Achilles Tang  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 12:01:18pm

re: #221 bigred1961

Of course what you describe is not what is typically known as racial discrimination. I am not even sure if the word discrimination is really accurate when one has large minorities at odds with comparably large minority of the majority. From what I read, both sides are equally at odds with each other. Is only one to blame?

225 XopXproxyX  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 12:01:20pm

re: #221 bigred1961

That is a very shrewd post.
The rise of the BNP is beacuse of the failings of the three main UK level political parties. The sad thing is, while it has motivated them to get out and protest against knuckle-dragging BNP skinheads, it has not motivated them to enact any kind of real political solutions to the issues you have just mentioned...

226 Varek Raith  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 12:03:12pm

So XopXproxyX, you'd vote for them?

227 XopXproxyX  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 12:04:32pm

re: #223 Varek Raith

That's still a really pathetic excuse. I could never, ever vote for the like of the BNP. Even if they were the last political party on Earth.

That's the thing... the people that vote BNP are pathetic, generally with nothing to really lose by doing it. And if the BNP had their way, they would be the only political party, if you see what I mean.

228 Varek Raith  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 12:05:36pm

re: #227 XopXproxyX

That's the thing... the people that vote BNP are pathetic, generally with nothing to really lose by doing it. And if the BNP had their way, they would be the only political party, if you see what I mean.

So, what about my #223, did you not like?

229 XopXproxyX  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 12:06:51pm

re: #226 Varek Raith

No. I actually protested against them this time last week. Don't fall into what Obama would call, the "false dichotomy".

230 Political Atheist  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 12:08:56pm

re: #76 PT Barnum

I have some spoiled Salmon. Can we put that in the box too?

231 XopXproxyX  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 12:09:09pm

re: #228 Varek Raith

I didn't like it because the person who you were responding to posted a very well thought out post, and you just dismissed it out-of-hand. You have to understand why people do things to help stop those things from happening in the future.

232 Varek Raith  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 12:11:18pm

re: #229 XopXproxyX

No. I actually protested against them this time last week. Don't fall into what Obama would call, the "false dichotomy".

I apologize for insinuating that you would.

re: #231 XopXproxyX

I didn't like it because the person who you were responding to posted a very well thought out post, and you just dismissed it out-of-hand. You have to understand why people do things to help stop those things from happening in the future.

I wasn't dismissing his post. I was just stating that people who vote for the BNP for those reasons are pathetic. I fully understand needing to get at the root of their support, it just doesn't excuse those who vote for them based on those reasons.

233 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 12:12:03pm

re: #220 Naso Tang

That doesn't make any sensible point to me, as an argument against a sales tax.

Those who spend everything they earn typically spend it proportionately more on things they don't need than those who can save. All you need to do to verify that is go to a supermarket and check out what's in the carts of those paying with food stamps.

WTF do you think you are you talking about? Gee, when I shop at the Sav-A-Lot store a block from my condo and have to wait in line behind people buying food with their EBT cards and WICA vouchers do you know what I see them buying? FOOD!

How about the things you can't buy?

Any nonfood item, such as pet foods; soaps, paper products, and household supplies; grooming items, toothpaste, and cosmetics

Alcoholic beverages and tobacco

Vitamins and medicines

Any food that will be eaten in the store

Hot foods

So what is it that you are pulling out of your ass to complain about them buying with "food stamps", hot dogs that have too many fillers? You apparently have no clue WTF you are talking about, but don't let that stop you...jerk.

234 Nervous Norvous  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 12:14:33pm

re: #215 sattv4u2

The general attitude I have seen is "Why should I have to pay for anyone else's (insert whatever you like here)?"

Which works itself out to "I shouldn't have to pay for anyone other than myself", when it comes right down to it.

I am exaggerating, and I'm aware of that, but I would like to think that no one really wants to instituionalize selfishness as a way of life.

235 Nervous Norvous  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 12:19:26pm

re: #220 Naso Tang

I disagree with your fundamental premise. It strikes me that you are perpetuating the welfare queen meme.

I don't think a lot of the working poor are living high off the hog on food stamps or anything else.

Try reading "Nickled and Dimed" for a picture of what it's really like to work in minimum wage jobs.

236 Nervous Norvous  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 12:22:17pm

re: #222 Naso Tang

Except that we have gone from extended family to nuclear family as the base family unit. That is what I was referring to. And to a certain extent with the "self fulfillment" model of parenting, we've gone to being solely focused on what is best for our selves without considering what is good for our kids or anyone else.

I'm dismayed by this, as I think that one of the great things about humans is their ability to form communities and accomplish things through cooperation and common effort.

Without that particular trait, we'd still just be hairless chimps.

237 Achilles Tang  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 12:26:05pm

re: #233 ausador

Thank you for revealing your state of mind so well.

We were generalizing to be sure, but I make no exaggeration in what I described. I see it regularly.

If you don't know the difference between food and junk/snack foods or between juice and sodas, then I can't make you more intelligent. Sorry.

238 Achilles Tang  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 12:32:08pm

re: #235 PT Barnum

I disagree with your fundamental premise. It strikes me that you are perpetuating the welfare queen meme.

I don't think a lot of the working poor are living high off the hog on food stamps or anything else.

Try reading "Nickled and Dimed" for a picture of what it's really like to work in minimum wage jobs.

You misinterpret what I say and misjudge my experience. I didn't say living high, I said living poorly, partly because of poor choices.

The issue was how money was spent, on needed versus not needed. I see what I described often.

239 Achilles Tang  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 12:34:53pm

re: #236 PT Barnum

We have that trait, but when we try to idealize it we think we are regressing because it is not perfect. Nothing is perfect.

240 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 12:46:39pm

i very much doubt that figure will hold in anyway - but there is a troubling undercurrent in the Lower Income white areas - where those people are being played about how much better Immigrants are being treated by the Govt. Its not true - but it's being sold and bought.

241 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 12:46:48pm

re: #237 Naso Tang

Thank you for revealing your state of mind so well.

We were generalizing to be sure, but I make no exaggeration in what I described. I see it regularly.

If you don't know the difference between food and junk/snack foods or between juice and sodas, then I can't make you more intelligent. Sorry.

I see them shopping at Sav-A-Lot, a store that has almost no junk food or fresh vegetables for that matter either. They buy cheap canned vegetables, lots of pasta, rice, and beans. Cheap ham cuts and 69 cent tuna, perhaps it is different in the area where you live, but here I see them trying to eat for a month on what benefits they get. I guess maybe your state provides a much higher level of benefits so that they can buy all kinds of luxury junk and still have something to eat. That certainly isn't the case where I live.

242 lostlakehiker  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 12:47:33pm

re: #160 samsgran1948

Guanxi, Lostlakehiker and Ryannon are kind of close to what I'm thinking: Mainstream Brits have been pushed pretty hard by the PC crowd. Britain is host to a large community of outsiders who voice so much hate for the British nation and British culture. They are told that if they want the newcomers to merge into the British culture, they are narrow-minded, bigoted racists. They see what they think are too many instances of British culture being forced to submit to an alien culture in the name of inclusiveness. The economy sucks, as does the job market. It's certainly understandable that a lot of Brits are beginning to resent this alien population.

You may have missed part of my point. British culture, itself, is in a sad way. Dalrymple had a phrase that stuck in memory, referring to the British girls who go clubbing and get puking drunk on a regular basis: "vulgar slattern." Everything would not be just dandy if the immigrants went back to their respective homelands. There are other problems, serious problems.

243 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 12:50:07pm

re: #242 lostlakehiker

You may have missed part of my point. British culture, itself, is in a sad way. Dalrymple had a phrase that stuck in memory, referring to the British girls who go clubbing and get puking drunk on a regular basis: "vulgar slattern." Everything would not be just dandy if the immigrants went back to their respective homelands. There are other problems, serious problems.

Pssst, quick add the druken boys to that before people accuse you of being a misogynist.

/

244 lostlakehiker  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 12:54:28pm

re: #205 PT Barnum

I personally think a national sales tax is a better choice, but it disproportionately affects those who spend everything they earn, as opposed to those who have more than they need.

Those with more than they need are therefore incentivized to not spend what they have so that they never pay taxes on it.

A national sales tax of 10% is fully equivalent to a flat rate income tax of 10%, with no deductions or personal exemptions. The guy who saves his money doesn't pay the tax then and there, but he cannot escape paying it sooner or later. The amount of stuff he can buy with his earnings is reduced by 10% either way.

It bears keeping in mind that you cannot take it with you. Money not spent may as well never have been earned. re: #243 ausador

Pssst, quick add the druken boys to that before people accuse you of being a misogynist.

/

I seem to recall having said something unkind about British "soccer fans" already. Presumably, these are mostly men. It's just that it's a novelty in the culture when the girls take up two-fisted drinking. With the Russians, by contrast, the men drink so much that their lifespan is five or ten years less than the women's.

245 Wishbone  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 12:55:26pm

re: #213 ausador

The English bitching about immigrants and race mixing makes no damn sense as Defoe tried to point out all the way back in 1703. We make even less sense bitching about it over here considering we are all immigrants as of just a couple of hundred years ago. It's scary that so many seem to have forgotten that.

The English aren't.

Taking part in the BBC Question Time Edition featuring Nick Griffin, Baroness Warsi made one highly pertinent observation. That being that the problems that most Brits have with immigration issues are not ones of race or colour. The question was simply one of numbers. Limited resources, limited space, limited housing stock... becoming more limited each and every time the doors are thrown open without so much as thought to the fact that our nation can only bear so much before becoming overwhelmed.

What really pisses Brits off, is when some spineless little shit of a politician like Jack Straw sits on the same panel and embarrasingly dodges answering a question that we all wanted to know the answer to: 'Did he think that the main parties' refusal to deal with the issues of immigration, issues that were high on the public agenda, had in any way contributed to the fact that the likes of shite like the BNP had made gains in the political arena?'

The English, or British for that matter, aren't 'bitching about race'; excepting the small minority who really are a bunch of racist fucks, of course. As I said... We're bitching about 'Numbers'.

246 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 1:05:31pm

re: #244 lostlakehiker

A national sales tax of 10% is fully equivalent to a flat rate income tax of 10%, with no deductions or personal exemptions. The guy who saves his money doesn't pay the tax then and there, but he cannot escape paying it sooner or later. The amount of stuff he can buy with his earnings is reduced by 10% either way.

They aren't talking about 10%, they are talking about 30%, and since there would be no inheritance tax any more, or capital gains tax, you sorta could take it with you. Your heirs would get it all, along with any properties and investments, and not pay one red cent in tax on any of it.

Oh, and lets not forget the local and state sales taxes would still be there so people would be paying anything from 33% to 43% on every purchase. Yet you say that this wouldn't disproportionately affect those with low incomes? Tell me another one...that was funny.

247 baier  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 1:05:58pm

I've long contended that the Brits are far more racist than we are in the US. All you have to do is go there as non-white christian and you'll find out.

I went to undergrad in Harlem, and I met many black students from various common wealth nations that lived in both the US and the UK. All will tell you the UK has a bigger race problem than they are aware of, and the US is a far better place to be black.

248 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 1:06:11pm

re: #245 Wishbone

it's not Immigration really - the biggest bitching and moaning from the "poor repressed downtrodden white silent bitching tabloid reading majority" is Housing. If there were no Housing waiting lists there would be far fewer problems.

Thatcher caused this Housing crisis and the Labour Government was too enthralled to keeping house prices up to try and solve the crisis.

249 baier  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 1:07:29pm

re: #248 wozzablog

it's not Immigration really - the biggest bitching and moaning from the "poor repressed downtrodden white silent bitching tabloid reading majority" is Housing. If there were no Housing waiting lists there would be far fewer problems.

Thatcher caused this Housing crisis and the Labour Government was too enthralled to keeping house prices up to try and solve the crisis.

/They cling to their fish and chips.

250 Wishbone  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 1:07:52pm

re: #242 lostlakehiker

There are other problems, serious problems.

Yes... and a lot of them caused by wishy-washy, liberal morons who have done their damnedest to engineer a society where every negative character trait is somebody elses fault. Everybody's a bloody victim.

No one would argue against the rights of women to enjoy equality with men; you know there's a problem when they think this means they have the absolute right to act as much a bunch of arseholes as a lot of lads do. Sadly, they do... but do they have to?

A couple of points: "vulgar slattern"... I'll go with that; I've seen it first hand. Just remember, for balance, that 'Crack Whore' is something we got from America.

Also...'Soccer fans'... Most popular stereotypes are based in fact, but that's all this is: A stereotype.

251 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 1:09:14pm

re: #247 baier

Outside any mixed Urban Area in the UK there is a a degree of prejudice - particularly among the older people in the Community.

But - leave a built up or Non-Mixed area in the States and i doubt there is a seriously much better reception awaiting a non white..

252 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 1:10:02pm

re: #249 baier

Fish - cor thats luxury - It's Saveloy all the way down ;-)

253 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 1:13:40pm

re: #250 Wishbone

well, yes - because at all but a few clubs the wishy washy liberal morons have priced the vulgar slatterns out ;-)


(exits to the rousing chorus of "Kevin Gallen's Magic... he wears a magic hat...")

254 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 1:14:01pm

re: #11 brookly red

Indigenous? that's like natural born, yes?

Goes back quite a bit further.

255 Wishbone  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 1:17:14pm

re: #248 wozzablog

Funny that, in daily discussion, the topic that consistently fails to crop up is housing stock; but put that in perspective. There are 100 families to house and only fifty houses to put them in: Numbers again. All part of the same problem... Limited resources becoming overwhelmed by the numbers.

Unchecked immigration swells the numbers.

256 Wishbone  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 1:22:00pm

re: #253 wozzablog

Ha! They weren't priced out.

They just put fur and diamonds on and got reclassified.

WAG's innit :)

257 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 1:22:53pm

re: #254 SanFranciscoZionist

unlike Aboriginis in Australia it's very difficult to see the vast majority of Indiginous British people.

I don't think the BNP have said how far back they want the deportations to go.

I'm Norse going back to 1163, my mother is German going back to 1754, my best friend is french going back to the mid 1800's. None of us are Indiginous British. The Indiginous population is a very small scattering of pre-Angl-pre saxon-pre roman and pre celtic. I will say now that no-one in Britain has an un-adulterated bloodline. I can live with that - it's very sad some scared and feeble minded individuals can't.

// Unless this is all about skin colour and i've missed something entirely...

258 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 1:23:46pm

re: #254 SanFranciscoZionist

Goes back quite a bit further.

Well let's not forget that they were immigrants from asia, 10-40,000 years ago depending on the stock. So really there are no indigenous Americans!
(nit-pick supreme!)

259 Wishbone  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 1:24:22pm

re: #257 wozzablog

...And there's not a single Mickey Mouser who doesn't know they're a mongrel and proud of it.

260 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 1:24:50pm

re: #255 Wishbone

read your MP's mailbag, or local councillor - i live in a very mixed (in class and Ethnicity) area of North London - i know my MP and Councillors very well and by extension their mailbags. Housing crops up in one way or another very very frequently.

261 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 1:27:07pm

re: #259 Wishbone

it's a Mongrel nation - but as long as that Mongrel is white as the falling snow people don't seem to mind - soon as a bit of Colour is added to the mix the discourse becomes murkier.

262 akarra  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 1:49:45pm

This is awful news, but I do think the more it is reported the more good will come of it - there are quite a few in the UK and US who want to stand against extremists, and the more they hear of things like this the more the extremists are in trouble.

263 Achilles Tang  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 1:58:38pm

re: #241 ausador

As I said, we are generalizing, and my primary point was that lower income people tend to spend less wisely, as a whole, and particularly if they receive assistance. Therefore that long ago original post that suggested they would be hardest hit with a sales tax (which could easily exclude food as it does now) is an over simplification.

As far as our relative experiences go, I can say that I see people buying what I consider a personal luxury, live blue crab, with food stamps all the time, but that is not my only example by any means. To be fair, that is probably a normal weekly fare. If they have the money, what's the big deal? /

Now, getting back to the jerk bit... a knee jerk perhaps?

264 Achilles Tang  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 2:06:23pm

re: #257 wozzablog

// Unless this is all about skin colour and i've missed something entirely...

Yes, I think you have missed something, and you have plenty of company. Skin color is the simple excuse. The problem is cultural conflict, not bloodlines (though no doubt exceptions can be listed. Those tempted, please spare us).

There has been a well recognized cultural identity in Britain for a long time, social stratifications and all.

In the USA by contrast, we mainly have to deal with telephone answer systems that ask if we want Spanish or English.

265 Stuart Leviton  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 2:15:28pm

The 22% figure is misleading and needs be fleshed out so that its meaning could be more clearly understood. The 22% figure might include a size able number of Brits who are disappointed with both the Labor Party which has been in office for a dozen years. The issues may be bread and butter issues, the War in Iraq and how Great Britain is faring in the global recession rather than demonstrating hard core support for the BNP. I would think that both Labour and the Conservatives would be interested in learning what portion of that 22% is soft support for the BNP.

I hope no one here will suggest that I am a BNP supporter in any way shape or form.

266 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 2:16:05pm

admittedly it is more than colour. but not by much in the areas infected by the BNP.

South Africans/Australians/French/Poles/Lithuanians = white.
African's/Indians/Phillipinos = not white.

Areas with high % areas of White immigrants are not target areas for the BNP.
There were efforts on behalf of some in the BNP to woo the Eastern-European immigrants - who are very conservative socially and also (in part) quite biggoted.

267 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 2:16:34pm

re: #264 Naso Tang

see immediately above

268 Achilles Tang  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 2:26:55pm

re: #267 wozzablog

see immediately above

*shrug*, simple bigots don't know what drives them, they just need simple excuses.

There are plenty of rednecks in the USA that are quite comfortable with black Americans, as there are plenty of white fans of black rap culture. Assimilation of one sort or another.

If Muslim didn't behave like Muslims there would be no problem; but of course that is a silly comment./

269 Wishbone  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 2:32:26pm

re: #261 wozzablog

I'll grant you that North London is a world away from Liverpool. I worked on the Holiday Inn Ariel hotel, Bath Road at the top end of Heathrow back in the nineties for a couple of months. Had digs close by and, compared to what I was used to, it was like being on another planet. Well, in another country, certainly.

In Liverpool, we've had Somali and Asian communities going back a couple of hundred years or so; as an international trading port, there were faces of all colours and all languages passing through and also settling. We've always had what you might call divisions between us as communities; The South End is where the African communities are based, the North End is where the Irish mostly settled and the Chinese settled smack dab in the middle of central Liverpool.

What you could always rely on was that there was an inevitable 'Scouseness' about people from their respective communities. It wasn't so surprising to hear an old Chinese fella, rattling away in Mandarin on the phone, put it down and say to someone 'What can I get yer mucker?' in the broadest Scouse accent. I remember a lad who worked up front for a local Balti house, Bengali lad called Andy. To look at, I swear he carried himself like an Indian prince. Honestly, he could have been a film star... Until he opened his mush. His accent was broader Scouse than mine. Bloody Everton fan too, which is his own fault :)

So, even though we have all these different cultural influences and skin tones around us here, there is the common culture of our city that bridges such over simplified distinctions as race or skin colour. Which is not to say that there aren't problems sometimes, but that can be put down to the universal constant that states: "There's always one". Meaning that, sometimes, there's always one arsehole.

So... Back to my time working up by Heathrow. Even though I was living my daily life amongst lots of Asians, I had absolutely no cultural connection to them whatsoever in my daily living in their neighbourhoods. I bumped into a few black lads here and there and chatted shite about football for a while, had such a laugh with one I nearly fell off the roof of the Ariel; but with the Asians? Not interested. I was in their world and who the fuck was I to expect them to give so much as a hint that we had any shared cultural ties. That was the impression I left with and I don't rush to such judgements too easily.

Naso makes a good point in that a lot of the conflict is cultural. I'm sick of people expressing the question "What exactly is British anyway?" as if this somehow dismisses any notion that there ever was a culture that was easily definitive as 'British' and that we are somehow culturally retarded for expecting to be dealt with from that perspective.

When relatively sane people decide to show support for shite like the BNP based on the fact that the other parties have so far completely abandoned their responsibilities to the electorate with regard to immigration control and all the problems that arise from it not being controlled at all, I could bang my head against a brick wall in frustration.

But I can understand why they do it.

I want to slap them silly, but I understand.

270 Nervous Norvous  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 3:21:28pm

re: #263 Naso Tang

That sounds suspiciously like "They deserve to be poor"

Part of the problem is that cheap food is often not healthy food. Buying fresh veggies is not particularly useful if it uses most of your available food budget.

I would like to see food stamps become a food voucher system similar to WIC, which is much more tied to nutrition than to just a flat dollar amount.

271 Achilles Tang  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 3:35:06pm

re: #270 PT Barnum

That sounds suspiciously like "They deserve to be poor"

Oh come on. Drop the snideness. Nobody "deserves" to be poor, but some people have habits they have learned, entitlements they take for granted, or simply were given up on by people who could have educated them better; us if you will.

This conversation started with opinions on methods of taxation that would be best. You presented an argument, in effect, that no system that could be described as hurting the poor more than the rich can be accepted. That argument is the perfect cop out for never doing anything because any moron can come up with such arguments for any moronic, or intelligent, suggestion.

Don't move the goal posts to ad hominem allegations of bigotry.

272 Achilles Tang  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 3:43:13pm

re: #270 PT Barnum

And, as a tip, when you are involved in a debate it is good form to put your money where your mouth is, not where your dingaling is. Save your little karma opinions for when you don't have anything to say, or are trolling, or both.

273 Nervous Norvous  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 3:55:51pm

re: #271 Naso Tang

I'm not the one making blanket statements about poor people making poorer choices than rich people.

I perhaps attributed economic bigotry to you that wasn't there, but the bottom line for me is that the economic system has to allow everyone to be more successful than they are or we end up with an economic aristocracy and lose sight of one of the things that is great about America, that anyone can do anything they set their minds too.

Right now, opportunities for those at the bottom are substantially fewer, while those at the top continue to reap rewards they did not strictly earn in any sense of the word.

With wealth concentrated at the top, more money gets passed down to succeeding generations to perpetuate the same pattern. THe people at the bottom of the economic scale have less opportunities to pass on money, which means that that pattern of no accumulated wealth may very well continue.

274 Nervous Norvous  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 3:58:36pm

re: #272 Naso Tang

I wasn't aware I had crossed the line on any particular issue with regards to karma, but I haven't been here that long, so I perhaps was unaware it was not good form to downding someone when I thought they were being an asshat, even if I was actively debating them at the time.

275 Achilles Tang  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 4:17:19pm

re: #274 PT Barnum

I wasn't aware I had crossed the line on any particular issue with regards to karma, but I haven't been here that long, so I perhaps was unaware it was not good form to downding someone when I thought they were being an asshat, even if I was actively debating them at the time.

Clearly you don't know an asshat from an opinion that you don't comprehend in anything but your preconceived biases. You seem to be a classic example of a black and white debater. No capability of nuances, nor realities; just sensitivities.

'till the next time, and keep control of your dinger and focus on your brains instead.

276 Nervous Norvous  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 4:23:27pm

re: #275 Naso Tang

I don't have a problem with dissenting opinions, but I find your willingness to engage in the same old bullshit with regards to the economically disadvantaged to be worthy of being called asshattery.

Feel free to down ding me in return if you feel the need.

I don't generally downding unless I feel someone is being a complete asshat or is arguing speciously. So far, you are meeting both criteria consistently. Looking at your karma tells me I'm not the only person who feels that way.

277 karmic_inquisitor  Sun, Oct 25, 2009 9:09:36pm

Very very late to the thread, but had to comment on the story -

Those assuming that Europeans are more at ease with different ethnicities haven't spent much time in Europe. Some of the most crass racist statements I have heard were in Europe from educated people thinking they were either making some pithy observation or simply reciting an expression that they have are accustomed to but can't be excused for having never thought about.

One I remember distinctly from a Phd'd technical director in Italy, asking rhetorically "Do I look like a n*** with a ring though my nose."

Europeans like the idea of racial harmony as long as there are plenty of white people around to share that idea with.

278 Wishbone  Mon, Oct 26, 2009 12:22:27am

re: #277 karmic_inquisitor

That'll be the 'Europe' on the other side of that English channel then. This is Britain we're talking about here. That you found attitudes like that in Italy isn't much of a surprise; the place is heaving with fascists. Watch the stands the next time Roma play for a good example.

We may have problems too. It would be disingenuous to suggest we're squeaky clean; but we're certainly not that backward.

279 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Oct 26, 2009 3:29:59am

The BNP likes to gloss over the fact that most of these "outsiders" come from nations that were once part of a great British Empire.

Nobody forced the British to go off and colonize a quarter of the Earth's surface, and now that the descendants of these ex-colonials and ex-Commonwealth citizens are coming home to roost, Britain is suddenly growing uneasy about it.

I see a similar situation with the USA: if we are going to consume five times our weight in World resources in relation to our share of World population, we should not be too surprised when a diproportionate share of the worlds problems get laid at our doorstep.

Which leaves us with two options: use our influence to help to solve the problems or reduce our share of consumption. Which is more in our national interest?

280 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Oct 26, 2009 5:46:08am

re: #278 Wishbone

Completely

281 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Oct 26, 2009 5:47:29am

re: #279 ralphieboy

or do both ;-)


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