Donohue: Catholic Abuse Scandals ‘Not Pedophilia’

Religion • Views: 3,737

Bill Donohue, head of the Catholic League, is always ready to jump in and defend the indefensible. This time it’s especially repellent as Donohue argues that since “the vast majority of the victims [of abuse by Catholic priests] were post-pubescent,” the problem is not pedophilia — but homosexuality. In some kind of twisted way, this is supposed to get the Church and Pope Benedict off the hook.

Meanwhile, ABC News Nightline has posted video of their latest report on Pope Benedict’s role in the sex abuse scandal involving Father Marcial Maciel: What Pope Benedict Knew About Father Maciel.

ABC News Video

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422 comments
1 MandyManners  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 11:49:11am

Hell ain't gonna' be hot enough.

2 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 11:49:41am

I now await Bill unleashing the ninjas to go hunting for the rabbit...

3 Bagua  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 11:52:16am

Re-post from prior thread:

Technically he is correct in that the medical definition for pedophilia involves perversion involving an adult and pre-pubescent children. Many of the priest cases are technically Hebephilia, which is the attraction to early pubescent children or Ephebophilia which is the preference for the 15-19 year old range. Though these terms are also used interchangeably.

Yet neither Hebephilia nor Ephebophilia is in common usage by law enforcement which defines a minor child by chronological age, not sexual maturity. This definition relies on the age of consent, which varies from state to state and nation to nation.

Regardless, a semantic argument such as this is a diversionary tactic, and also a slander to normal homosexuals who are not perverts nor criminals. It is universally understood that the "pedophile" priests are not normal homosexuals, almost all exhibit a form of Chronophilia that violates social and civil codes.

4 [deleted]  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 11:52:43am
5 silentalfa  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 11:54:08am

april fools it actually IS pedophilia!!!!!!!!

i got it

6 MandyManners  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 11:56:05am

re: #4 goddamnedfrank

You are disgusting.

7 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 11:56:05am

I guess this means he supports democrats blocking an amendment to the healthcare bill that would deny viagra to sex offenders...asshat

8 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 11:56:12am

This is on a par with those who defend Mohammed for not screwing Aisha until she turned 9.

9 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 11:56:41am

I don't even understand how this is supposed to work as a 'defense'.

The Catholic church keeps creating crises for itself. I will not be surprised if, in my lifetime, the US Catholic church splits from Rome.

10 Bagua  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 11:57:16am

re: #6 MandyManners

You are disgusting.

Actually it is the priests who are disgusting, Frank is mocking them.

11 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 11:58:02am

re: #6 MandyManners

It's from an Onion article, arguably in poor taste, but it was, at least, a reference.

[Link: www.theonion.com...]

re: #4 goddamnedfrank

For the record, Frank, as someone who experienced childhood sexual abuse, that really isn't that funny. I know you meant no harm, though.

12 zora  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 11:58:19am

so let me see. the church did not cover up pedophilia. the church covered up homosexual rape and sent the rapists from parish to parish. so that is ok? wtf.

13 Varek Raith  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 11:58:57am

Organized religion fail.

14 Ming  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 11:59:19am

So the motto of the Catholic Church is not "leave no child's behind", but instead should be "leave no teenager's behind"?

15 Ericus58  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:01:53pm

re: #4 goddamnedfrank

Poor taste, Frank.
There is no way to try and defend the actions of those in any religion that prey on children. They deserve our condemnation.

Try another way.

16 webevintage  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:02:10pm

ugh and ugh and ugh.
Screaming Bill just sucks and I wish he would go away.
He and Archbishop Dolan really did not help the Catholic Church at all in the last week.

I thought Matthews was great last night regarding this:
[Link: newsweek.washingtonpost.com...]
This is more than a secular discipline. It is empowered by the authority of God. Priests stand before these young boys as representatives of God, with all the august authority that comes with it. In this case, to a young child being brought up with the fullest belief in God, and what he come to firmly believe is his church.

This is not a place for three strikes and you`re out. It is not a place where Christian sympathy should go to the adult abuser of this trust between child and churchman. It`s the place where the first, indeed overwhelming claimant to our sympathy and to justice must be the child, the vulnerable young boy who finds himself under the power of a priest of Jesus Christ, an heir to the disciples, a servant in the tradition of the Apostles.

If there was ever an easy moral question, it should have been what to do with priests who molest children. You fight for the victim. Then you remove the perpetrator. You end the occasion of sin, so the priest, in this case the moral felon, never has the opportunity to act again.

I would add what I said last night.
I want to hear repentance.
I want 2011 to be the year The Church goes though a deep and meaningful penance.
I want the Pope and the Cardinals and the Bishops to throw off their vestments and wear some form of sack cloth and ashes for that year.
I don't want the Pope to resign, I want him to take responsibility.
I'd like to see the church bring any victim to Rome who is willing and have the Pope personally apologize to them.
I want them all to say over and over again (and I don't care that it is no longer happening or that most of them were never involved or that a good amount of the perps are dead):
"We have sinned grievously"

17 zora  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:03:25pm

re: #4 goddamnedfrank

Louis CK learns about the Catholic Church

Youtube Video
18 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:03:26pm

re: #16 webevintage

I agree with you. I'd like to see the Church use some of the gravitas, the majesty, for penance rather than self-celebration.

19 Gus  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:03:37pm

Bill Donohue is disgusting.

20 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:03:49pm

re: #4 goddamnedfrank

"Why do all these choirboys keep sucking my cock?"

This is a reference to a famous and hilarious Onion piece, people.

It's obviously intended as a sardonic comment about the Church's new 'excuse'-- blame the ghey.

21 researchok  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:04:03pm

You know you're on the right track when Andrew Sullivan is the voice of reason.

22 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:04:22pm

re: #20 iceweasel

This is a reference to a famous and hilarious Onion piece, people.

It's obviously intended as a sardonic comment about the Church's new 'excuse'-- blame the ghey.

BTW-- language in link NSFW.

23 MandyManners  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:04:41pm

re: #4 goddamnedfrank

Do you really think that it's okay to make fun of the molestation of children?

24 MandyManners  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:05:13pm

I have no sense of humor about this. None.

25 Varek Raith  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:05:26pm

I'm gonna bow out before I say something...untoward.

26 MandyManners  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:05:47pm

I don't care where it came from.

27 cliffster  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:05:55pm

re: #23 MandyManners

Do you really think that it's okay to make fun of the molestation of children?

No, it's not. It's disgusting.

28 Gordon marock  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:06:23pm

The real problem is requiring priests to be 'celibate.'

29 middy  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:08:13pm

Everything is fair game for humor.

Everything.

30 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:08:44pm

re: #29 middy

Everything is fair game for humor.

Everything.

Only if it's ACTUALLY FUNNY!!

31 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:08:54pm

re: #6 MandyManners

You are disgusting.

You, in your general ignorance of things, used to think the Arab word for God was disgusting, so this too shall pass.

re: #20 iceweasel

This is a reference to a famous and hilarious Onion piece, people.

It's obviously intended as a sardonic comment about the Church's new 'excuse'-- blame the ghey.

Thanks, didn't feel like explaining the obvious to the willfully obtuse, besides my karma to comment ratio allows for the occasional burn-off.

32 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:09:29pm

re: #26 MandyManners

I don't care where it came from.

Of course you don't. You don't care about context or what he meant, just a chance to get your outrageous outrage on.

33 Ojoe  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:09:49pm

Admit the bad stuff, fix it, and no excuses.

34 SpaceJesus  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:09:59pm

amend the constitution, prohibit all religion

35 Gus  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:10:06pm

More deflection, dishonesty and denial on this issue. Thus far we have a) an exorcist from the Holy See blaming it on evil; b) Bill Donohue blaming it on a fabricated homosexual theory of his; and c) the Vatican blaming the media for related coverage.

Meanwhile, nothing changes, no one is fired, and many are rarely prosecuted. It's as if though they are above the law and given diplomatic immunity.

36 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:10:22pm

re: #31 goddamnedfrank

Thanks, didn't feel like explaining the obvious to the willfully obtuse, besides my karma to comment ratio allows for the occasional burn-off.

No problem. Willful obtuseness and fake outrage need to be called out for what they are.

37 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:10:24pm

re: #28 Gordon marock

The real problem is requiring priests to be 'celibate.'


I've never understood that!!
...Going for marrige counciling to a "ceibate preist"?

38 palomino  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:10:26pm

re: #4 goddamnedfrank

"Why do all these choirboys keep sucking my cock?"

Don't let the downdings bother you, that's fucking hilarious.

39 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:10:32pm

re: #29 middy

I really hope this thread doesn't turn into a 'what is tolerable and what isn't' thread. That is an endless, and futile argument.

I don't like Frank's joke. I don't hold it against Frank, because I know he meant no harm by it.

The actual actions of the priests and the Catholic church covering them up I think are a better use of time than arguing where the ineffable dividing line between acceptable and unacceptable humor is.

40 Bagua  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:11:12pm

re: #28 Gordon marock

The real problem is requiring priests to be 'celibate.'

Nope, that canard has been repeatedly dis-proven. The alleged 'celibacy' would be manifest if they were not priests, it is part of the Chronophilia and they are, in fact, not celibate.

41 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:11:19pm

re: #39 Obdicut

Talking about the actual actions of the priests, I mean. PIMF.

42 BenghaziHoops  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:12:00pm

re: #22 iceweasel

BTW-- language in link NSFW.

Hi You! How goes things?
I'm watching a goofy movie with Brad Pitt called Meet Joe Black
If you call tonight I'll be at a big Party with friends..So I'm warning you..There will be loud background noise involved..

43 Ojoe  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:12:21pm

re: #34 SpaceJesus

Impossible, religion is as human as anything & everyone has one, it is part of our makeup.

44 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:12:40pm

The term they loved when the Boston crap was coming to light was 'ephebophilia'. I don't know why they think playing the vocabulary game will help with the basic problem, namely the betrayal of the children of the faithful by those sent to be their shepherds, but they do keep trying.

45 webevintage  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:12:46pm

re: #28 Gordon marock

The real problem is requiring priests to be 'celibate.'

I disagree.
The problem was allowing men into the Priesthood who had sexual issues who joined with the hope that by becoming a Priest and being celibate they would be able to control their behavior.
(not referring to being gay here)
Celibacy is hard, but it is a choice that well rounded, sexually mature adults can make. They may struggle with it, but they are quite capable of keeping that vow....and if they can't they "fall off the wagon" with an adult man or woman...not a child or a teenager.

46 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:14:16pm

re: #42 HoosierHoops

Hi You! How goes things?
I'm watching a goofy movie with Brad Pitt called Meet Joe Black
If you call tonight I'll be at a big Party with friends..So I'm warning you..There will be loud background noise involved..

Hey cutie! Sounds like fun!

Comrade Jimmah and I will be in an undisclosed location watching the sunset. ;) Probably going to call you then!
Give our love to Winston-- and yourself of course.

47 Ojoe  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:14:19pm

re: #35 Gus 802

It's as if though they are above the law

That is actually part of the explanation as the Church has its own law codes (cannon law) & has assumed it can operate on its own with its own laws on these matters.

48 Varek Raith  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:14:28pm

re: #43 Ojoe

Impossible, religion is as human as anything & everyone has one, it is part of our makeup.


Then consider me an alien.
;)

49 Gordon marock  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:14:47pm

re: #40 Bagua

Nope, that canard has been repeatedly dis-proven. The alleged 'celibacy' would be manifest if they were not priests, it is part of the Chronophilia and they are, in fact, not celibate.

If you are trying to say that a priest who sexually molests a child is not celibate, then my response is 'No shit?'

50 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:15:14pm

re: #44 SanFranciscoZionist

Ephebophilia is just as creepy, in many ways, as pedophilia. The power imbalance is still obviously there, and the abuse of someone who is just sexually emerging is no less harmful than the abuse of someone pre-pubescent.

You won't find survivors of sexual abuse telling each other, "Oh, you got raped by a priest when you were fifteen? Pshaw, that's not pedophilia, you were sexually mature: that's homosexuality!"

It's heartless as hell. I don't see how anyone making that argument can sleep at night.

51 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:15:26pm

re: #44 SanFranciscoZionist

The term they loved when the Boston crap was coming to light was 'ephebophilia'. I don't know why they think playing the vocabulary game will help with the basic problem, namely the betrayal of the children of the faithful by those sent to be their shepherds, but they do keep trying.

The 'ephebbophilia' bullshit is meant to lessen the blame-- as though molesting 12-14 year old children is somehow less horrible than molesting younger children.
Frankly, to me it looks like victim blaming.

52 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:15:39pm

A little (Attempt at) levity:

There are two monks sitting in a monastary. One says to the other "These documents we're always hand-copying...they've always been hand-copied, right?"

"Well, yes...of course," says the other monk.

"So, what if, in the past 2,000 years," sayd the forst monk, "Somebody misspelled something or got a word wrong, and we've been copying that mistake ever since?"

"well, that's a good question," says the second monk, "That could really be a problem. Wait a minute, I know think we have the origional documents somewhere in the basement. Tell you what--stay here and I'll go see if I can find them."

So the second monk goes down into the basement. After waiting several hours, the first monk decides to go look for him. So he goes down there, and sure enough, he sees the other monk. But he's crying.

"Why are you crying?" he asks.

"It says CELEBRATE."

53 Ojoe  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:15:42pm

re: #48 Varek Raith

OK

What do you like best about Earth by the way?

54 webevintage  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:15:46pm

re: #49 Gordon marock

If you are trying to say that a priest who sexually molests a child is not celibate, then my response is 'No shit?'

But being celibate does not make a man abuse children and teenagers.

55 Altermite  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:15:47pm

re: #48 Varek Raith

Then consider me an alien.
;)

BALDNESS IS A HAIR COLOR!

56 Gordon marock  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:16:26pm

re: #45 webevintage

I disagree.
The problem was allowing men into the Priesthood who had sexual issues who joined with the hope that by becoming a Priest and being celibate they would be able to control their behavior.
(not referring to being gay here)
Celibacy is hard, but it is a choice that well rounded, sexually mature adults can make. They may struggle with it, but they are quite capable of keeping that vow...and if they can't they "fall off the wagon" with an adult man or woman...not a child or a teenager.

Can a celibate person not be a pedophile? Of course. Would I let my son go on a camping trip with a 'celibate' priest rather than a pastor who is married with children, hell no.

57 Varek Raith  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:17:16pm

re: #53 Ojoe

OK

What do you like best about Earth by the way?

Women. And cake.

58 webevintage  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:17:45pm

re: #56 Gordon marock

Can a celibate person not be a pedophile? Of course. Would I let my son go on a camping trip with a 'celibate' priest rather than a pastor who is married with children, hell no.

sheesh.
Do you actually know any Priests?

59 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:17:46pm

re: #53 Ojoe

LOL
I'd have traveled this far just for the produce.....

60 Ojoe  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:17:52pm

re: #57 Varek Raith

I bet some of you come here for coffee.

BBL

61 Varek Raith  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:18:23pm

re: #60 Ojoe

I bet some of you come here for coffee.

BBL

That too.
:)

62 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:18:58pm

Is it my imagination or are virtually all the victims being portrayed in the media as young males and virtually all the offenders being portrayed as gay priests?

What about the female victims?
What about the heterosexual male offenders (straight priests)?
What about the homosexual female offenders (lesbian nuns)?
What about the heterosexual female offenders (straight nuns)?

Are gay priests being scapegoated?
Are female victims being blamed or ignored?

63 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:19:00pm

re: #56 Gordon marock

Do remember that a lot of pedophiles marry women who have children. The bastards.

There is no easy way to guard against people who violate networks of trust. It is the responsibility of the people who operate that network of trust. It is the responsibility of the Catholic Church, in this case, to protect children from those who would do them harm.

Instead, they protected the priests, and their reputation. It is a monstrous act.

64 Kragar  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:19:34pm

There are no excuses for some actions. Period.

65 webevintage  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:19:52pm

re: #56 Gordon marock

Can a celibate person not be a pedophile? Of course. Would I let my son go on a camping trip with a 'celibate' priest rather than a pastor who is married with children, hell no.

Wait.
Why would you let your son go on a camping trip alone with any male?
Are you saying that by being married and having kids that makes a person less likely to abuse?

66 SpaceJesus  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:20:29pm

guy who put "i'm gay" on his license plate found dead in oklahoma

[Link: www.news9.com...]

67 webevintage  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:20:32pm

re: #62 Spare O'Lake


Are female victims being blamed or ignored?

Yeah, there's that.

68 palomino  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:20:48pm

Of course the distinction Donohue makes is specious. Whether the victim is 8 or 14 doesn't really change the fact that a child was sexually abused--by a religious authority figure, no less. And the Church's response was years of cover-ups, denials and outright lies.

The Church has a huge communication problem. Do you think spokespeople like Donohue make this better or worse?

69 Bagua  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:21:08pm

re: #49 Gordon marock

If you are trying to say that a priest who sexually molests a child is not celibate, then my response is 'No shit?'

I'm not "trying to say" anything. I am informing you that celibacy is not an issue in these cases. The celibacy is not linked with pedophilia, the pedophile priests, if not priests, would likely still appear to be celibate in that they would not engage in sexual relationships with adults. The only part the celibacy plays in these cases is in providing cover for the priests, as outside the priesthood one may question why they have no adult relationships.

70 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:21:57pm

re: #8 Spare O'Lake

This is on a par with those who defend Mohammed for not screwing Aisha until she turned 9.

Well, that took less than a minute.

Spare, if we start the history of sexual abuse in the world from the seventh century, it's going to take us a while to get to current events.

71 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:22:44pm

re: #12 zora

so let me see. the church did not cover up pedophilia. the church covered up homosexual rape and sent the rapists from parish to parish. so that is ok? wtf.

Well, the problem isn't the Church, see, it's the GAY guys the Church covered up for.

Yep, makes perfect sense to me.

72 lawhawk  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:23:26pm

What's most troubling is the excuses coming from people like Donohue to avoid the Church taking responsibility for failing to clean its house of priests and others who have engaged in such behavior, condoned such behavior, willfully allowed such behavior to continue, or otherwise engaged in actions that allows such individuals to continue to have any role in leading Church activities.

The way I see it, the Catholic Church (and any other group for that matter) should have a zero tolerance attitude towards such activities, including pedophilia and hebephilia or ephebophilia (all of which are usually put together as pedophilia - and often constitute statutory rape in most jurisdictions because the children are not of the age of consent. It's not just that, it's that the church officials were taking advantage of their position of power and abusing these kids.

And the coverup is even worse - because instead of taking actions to restore some measure of trust in the Church, the fact that religious leaders at the highest levels knew and did nothing (or worse - sought to obfuscate the issues), people who do believe in the Church will find that confidence shaken and the trust broken.

73 Bagua  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:23:42pm

re: #62 Spare O'Lake

Is it my imagination or are virtually all the victims being portrayed in the media as young males and virtually all the offenders being portrayed as gay priests?

What about the female victims?
What about the heterosexual male offenders (straight priests)?
What about the homosexual female offenders (lesbian nuns)?
What about the heterosexual female offenders (straight nuns)?

Are gay priests being scapegoated?
Are female victims being blamed or ignored?

There are cases involving female victims. Very few of the pedophile priests self-identify as gay. The media and public are confused, as is often the case.

74 Bagua  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:24:24pm

re: #72 lawhawk

Well said.

75 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:25:05pm

re: #69 Bagua

I'm not "trying to say" anything. I am informing you that celibacy is not an issue in these cases. The celibacy is not linked with pedophilia, the pedophile priests, if not priests, would likely still appear to be celibate in that they would not engage in sexual relationships with adults. The only part the celibacy plays in these cases is in providing cover for the priests, as outside the priesthood one may question why they have no adult relationships.

What you are saying is quite possible, but is there any evidence to suggest that unnatural suppression of more normal sexual urges can never cause such extreme perversion?

76 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:25:25pm

re: #69 Bagua

You're missing the point. It's not that celibacy causes pedophilia.

It's that an institution that requires celibacy runs two risks:

A) People with pedophilic tendencies who want to control them may believe that a celibate environment is good for helping them keep control over their urges, and so may be drawn to the priesthood.

B) Requiring that your membership be sexually unusual makes it harder to discern which of them are dangerously sexually abnormal.

77 lostlakehiker  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:25:50pm

re: #3 Bagua

Re-post from prior thread:

Technically he is correct in that the medical definition for pedophilia involves perversion involving an adult and pre-pubescent children. Many of the priest cases are technically Hebephilia, which is the attraction to early pubescent children or Ephebophilia which is the preference for the 15-19 year old range. Though these terms are also used interchangeably.

Yet neither Hebephilia nor Ephebophilia is in common usage by law enforcement which defines a minor child by chronological age, not sexual maturity. This definition relies on the age of consent, which varies from state to state and nation to nation.

Regardless, a semantic argument such as this is a diversionary tactic, and also a slander to normal homosexuals who are not perverts nor criminals. It is universally understood that the "pedophile" priests are not normal homosexuals, almost all exhibit a form of Chronophilia that violates social and civil codes.

The meaning of words changes over time. In most cultures, at most times, for an adult male to find a 15-19 year old female attractive would not been deemed perverted, and on the other hand, for an adult male to find another adult male attractive would have been. Even now, it's a good guess that world wide, that still holds. In Europe, it would perhaps be the other way around, and in the U.S., who knows?

78 Gus  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:25:56pm

re: #68 palomino

Of course the distinction Donohue makes is specious. Whether the victim is 8 or 14 doesn't really change the fact that a child was sexually abused--by a religious authority figure, no less. And the Church's response was years of cover-ups, denials and outright lies.

The Church has a huge communication problem. Do you think spokespeople like Donohue make this better or worse?

Specious is a good way of describing it. For Donohue or anyone else to make an assessment that there is one single psychological model that motivates the perpetrators doesn't follow basic science. That would take years of study including the psycho-analysis of each of the perpetrators. At some point it's almost irrelevant.

Regardless of what motivates the perpetrators the most important aspect here is the removal, prosecution and prevention of future abuse.

79 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:29:12pm

re: #66 SpaceJesus

guy who put "i'm gay" on his license plate found dead in oklahoma

[Link: www.news9.com...]

Gosh.

Here are two of the many beefs I have with homophobia.

1. The jock / tough guy / bully mentality that accompanies it.

2. If you think through it logically, for those who claim 'Alpha Male' status, by having homosexuality around, it actually increases the chances for mating since, by removing themselves from the male - female dating pool, the available girl to guy ratio changes accordingly overall. That is if they are strictly Gay and not bisexual and discounting that Lesbians aren't at the same number...if that's the case, I gotta revert to #1.

Or...neither 1 or 2 apply and enters #3:

3. We are all fricking people with all of our own ideas, thoughts, and desires!! Wake up world!

80 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:29:26pm

re: #70 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, that took less than a minute.

Spare, if we start the history of sexual abuse in the world from the seventh century, it's going to take us a while to get to current events.

Please don't go dense on me. It is Donohue's lame defence (i.e. that it was not pedophilia) that I was equating to the lame defenders of Mohammed's own particular sexual abuse.

81 Kragar  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:30:10pm

You have a set of people, placed in a position of moral authority over others, who are literally said to be agents for God, responsible for a persons immortal soul being delivered to Heaven or Hell, abusing that power for their own sexual desires, victimizing the people who have the least defense against them. And they want to quibble over the terminology?

Fuck you, Donohue. Its ass hats like you that I plan to keep my kids as far removed from any Church as humanly possible.

82 researchok  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:30:11pm

re: #76 Obdicut

re: #78 Gus 802

Excellent points.

The dynamics of sexual abuse are complex and cannot be reduced to a single talking point or cause. There is the culture of the group and the culture of the dysfunction that contributes to the behavior.

83 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:30:45pm

re: #80 Spare O'Lake

You can't go a single thread without dragging Islam into it.

This has nothing at all to do with Islam.

84 Gus  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:31:45pm

re: #80 Spare O'Lake

Please don't go dense on me. It is Donohue's lame defence (i.e. that it was not pedophilia) that I was equating to the lame defenders of Mohammed's own particular sexual abuse.

Pardon me. But what the heck does Mohammed have to do with this?

85 Bagua  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:31:49pm

re: #76 Obdicut

You're missing the point. It's not that celibacy causes pedophilia.

It's that an institution that requires celibacy runs two risks:

A) People with pedophilic tendencies who want to control them may believe that a celibate environment is good for helping them keep control over their urges, and so may be drawn to the priesthood.

B) Requiring that your membership be sexually unusual makes it harder to discern which of them are dangerously sexually abnormal.

No I'm not missing the point. Your B is the same as my point about the celibacy providing cover for the priests. Your A is debatable, but is probably a factor.

Also, read my post before you start attacking it, I am likewise discounting the influence of celibicy, which is more a rationalisation by non-pedophiles trying to understand pedophilia.

86 darthstar  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:32:18pm

re: #83 Obdicut

You can't go a single thread without dragging Islam into it.

This has nothing at all to do with Islam.

That's the problem with having a three megabyte iPod. It only plays one song.

87 Gordon marock  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:33:34pm

re: #58 webevintage

Yes, many.

88 Bagua  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:33:43pm

re: #77 lostlakehiker

The meaning of words changes over time. In most cultures, at most times, for an adult male to find a 15-19 year old female attractive would not been deemed perverted, and on the other hand, for an adult male to find another adult male attractive would have been. Even now, it's a good guess that world wide, that still holds. In Europe, it would perhaps be the other way around, and in the U.S., who knows?

Yes, I agree. It varies state to state, nation to nation, and also has changed over historical periods.

89 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:34:17pm

So, Donahue is saying the Priests are "making love" to the boys, not raping them?

Seriously messed up, that.

90 Gordon marock  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:34:47pm

re: #65 webevintage

Wait.
Why would you let your son go on a camping trip alone with any male?
Are you saying that by being married and having kids that makes a person less likely to abuse?

You are right. New rule: My son may only go camping with super hot college chicks. If he is molested, at least he can live with the psychic trauma.

91 palomino  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:35:28pm

re: #78 Gus 802

Specious is a good way of describing it. For Donohue or anyone else to make an assessment that there is one single psychological model that motivates the perpetrators doesn't follow basic science. That would take years of study including the psycho-analysis of each of the perpetrators. At some point it's almost irrelevant.

Regardless of what motivates the perpetrators the most important aspect here is the removal, prosecution and prevention of future abuse.

Donohue has a long history of homophobia, so the diversionary tactic here is consistent with his previous BS.

Watch last night's Larry King interview (if you can stand it) where he brings this up--the other guests are incredulous, almost speechless. Like wtf difference does this make when you're talking about sexual abuse and Church coverups?

92 silentbob27  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:37:06pm

Wow, the Catholic League is now in bed with NAMBLA...well, maybe not in bed, but they sure are making out in the back of a van. Is a strange world we now live in.

93 darthstar  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:37:16pm

Sean Hannity praises Teabaggers as "Tim McVeigh wannabes"...and they cheer.
/facepalm

94 palomino  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:37:54pm

re: #83 Obdicut

You can't go a single thread without dragging Islam into it.

This has nothing at all to do with Islam.

Some people have to find an equivalency argument everywhere. Even when it's completely irrelevant.

95 webevintage  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:38:13pm

re: #76 Obdicut


B) Requiring that your membership be sexually unusual makes it harder to discern which of them are dangerously sexually abnormal.


Maybe.
Some seminaries did a very good job of discerning who was not a good candidate for the Priesthood and the areas they supplied Priests for had a much lower incident of abuse (of course you can never have none just like the rest of the population) then other areas.
LA had very bad problem because of the seminary and what seemed to be a "wink wink nudge nudge" attitude in regards to the abuse of teenagers.

96 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:38:14pm

re: #83 Obdicut

You can't go a single thread without dragging Islam into it.

This has nothing at all to do with Islam.

PC much? The comparison immediately jumped out at me, and I felt no particular need to suppress it.

97 doubter4444  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:38:34pm

Not to mention that even 18 year old boys are being put in jail amd charged as sex offenders for LIFE for having relations with girls under 18.
The coginive dissonsance is staggering, and discussing.
When then is he going to say that 35 year old men sleeping with girls of 15 is not "pedophila" and should be excused?
Immoral, criminal and he deserves to rot in hell.

98 Gus  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:38:54pm

re: #91 palomino

Donohue has a long history of homophobia, so the diversionary tactic here is consistent with his previous BS.

Watch last night's Larry King interview (if you can stand it) where he brings this up--the other guests are incredulous, almost speechless. Like wtf difference does this make when you're talking about sexual abuse and Church coverups?

It begs the question: is Donohue suggesting a witch hunt or foundation for profiling? I'm curious how either would work since they in fact know who the majority of the perpetrators as well as their protectors.

99 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:38:54pm

re: #76 Obdicut

You're missing the point. It's not that celibacy causes pedophilia.

It's that an institution that requires celibacy runs two risks:

A) People with pedophilic tendencies who want to control them may believe that a celibate environment is good for helping them keep control over their urges, and so may be drawn to the priesthood.

B) Requiring that your membership be sexually unusual makes it harder to discern which of them are dangerously sexually abnormal.

agreed. The catholic church historically has always had a major issue with the idea of the enjoyment of sex, which is a very basic drive in the vast majority of human beings. Who would have thought that repressing such drives in an environment populated with young boys would lead to such behaviour as we are seeing here?/

100 reine.de.tout  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:39:24pm

re: #45 webevintage

I disagree.
The problem was allowing men into the Priesthood who had sexual issues who joined with the hope that by becoming a Priest and being celibate they would be able to control their behavior.
(not referring to being gay here)
Celibacy is hard, but it is a choice that well rounded, sexually mature adults can make. They may struggle with it, but they are quite capable of keeping that vow...and if they can't they "fall off the wagon" with an adult man or woman...not a child or a teenager.

Thank you.
Exactly.
And this was right on target, too:


re: #16 webevintage

ugh and ugh and ugh.
Screaming Bill just sucks and I wish he would go away.
He and Archbishop Dolan really did not help the Catholic Church at all in the last week.

I thought Matthews was great last night regarding this:
[Link: newsweek.washingtonpost.com...]
This is more than a secular discipline. It is empowered by the authority of God. Priests stand before these young boys as representatives of God, with all the august authority that comes with it. In this case, to a young child being brought up with the fullest belief in God, and what he come to firmly believe is his church.

This is not a place for three strikes and you`re out. It is not a place where Christian sympathy should go to the adult abuser of this trust between child and churchman. It`s the place where the first, indeed overwhelming claimant to our sympathy and to justice must be the child, the vulnerable young boy who finds himself under the power of a priest of Jesus Christ, an heir to the disciples, a servant in the tradition of the Apostles.

If there was ever an easy moral question, it should have been what to do with priests who molest children. You fight for the victim. Then you remove the perpetrator. You end the occasion of sin, so the priest, in this case the moral felon, never has the opportunity to act again.

I would add what I said last night.
I want to hear repentance.
I want 2011 to be the year The Church goes though a deep and meaningful penance.
I want the Pope and the Cardinals and the Bishops to throw off their vestments and wear some form of sack cloth and ashes for that year.
I don't want the Pope to resign, I want him to take responsibility.
I'd like to see the church bring any victim to Rome who is willing and have the Pope personally apologize to them.
I want them all to say over and over again (and I don't care that it is no longer happening or that most of them were never involved or that a good amount of the perps are dead):
"We have sinned grievously"

101 doubter4444  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:39:38pm

Sorry:
Not to mention that even 18 year old boys are being put in jail and charged as sex offenders for LIFE for having relations with girls under 18.
The cognitive dissonance is staggering, and discussing.
When then is he going to say that 35 year old men sleeping with girls of 15 is not "pedophilia" and should be excused?
Immoral, criminal and he deserves to rot in hell.

PIMF!!
I'm so mad i hit send instead of Spell!

102 Jeff In Ohio  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:40:46pm

re: #93 darthstar

Um, wow.

103 Bagua  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:40:49pm

Here is a prior comment I made relevant to this thread:

re: #368 marjoriemoon

I don't think so either, but with the priests, at any rate, it's some sort of weird psychology combing rape, pedophilia, homosexuality and I do think celibacy, at least not allowing sex with a woman, has to add to the mix.

It is a perversion of that individuals "love map". Often, this can be traced to being abused as a child in a similar fashion. Thus, it is largely a learned response which thrives in a culture that protects and perpetuates it.

It is false that it always involves rape, and it is false that this is solely about "power" and other psychobabble. They are pedophiles, they lust after children, it is always sexual in nature.

The celibacy is not likely a major factor as their are plenty of married pedophiles. Rather, it is the access to the preferred victims. It is also likely the pedophiles choose the live of pretend celibacy because it appeals to them for numerous reasons.

1. It is a cultural setting with access to preferred victims.
2. There is a culture of cover-up and enablement.
3. They are not interested in sex with women in many case.

104 Gus  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:41:10pm

re: #93 darthstar

Sean Hannity praises Teabaggers as "Tim McVeigh wannabes"...and they cheer.
/facepalm

What the?

105 researchok  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:42:01pm

It isn't just the Catholic Church that has the problem. It seems exaggerated but in fact, the Catholic Church is a very large institution. That there are large numbers should come as no surprise.

The problems exist in the public school system, Boy Scouts, Girls Scouts and so on. It also exists in the Jewish religious community as well as every Christian Church and in every other religion. Often these groups have another dysfunction on common: denial.

Any structure that places children under the supervision of non family adults or provides access to them is an institution that will attract dysfunctional adults. The challenge is to make these institutions safe for children and to continuously screen the adults- no small matters.

The disaster is always prolonged and made worse by the cover ups and the refusal by the institution to make safety a priority.

106 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:42:20pm

re: #89 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
If a Priest wants to break his vow of celibacy he can easily,as they say ,take a cab to town,whether he's gay or straight!
I think what is going on hear is far deeper and more dangerous!
It's an act of violence and abuse that even removing the offending organ will not cure!
A position of authority and power over anyone,minor or not ,
requires a higher character and moral grounding than these aparently have achieved.

107 reine.de.tout  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:42:21pm

re: #93 darthstar

Sean Hannity praises Teabaggers as "Tim McVeigh wannabes"...and they cheer.
/facepalm

O.M.G.
Can't believe he said it.
Can't believe they cheered and applauded.

108 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:42:28pm

re: #100 reine.de.tout

You really are a lovely lady. It's a pleasure to know you.

109 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:42:29pm

re: #93 darthstar

That is some weird, dark shit.

110 Gordon marock  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:42:50pm

re: #104 Gus 802

What the?

Sounds edited. The audio sounds very fishy.

111 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:43:01pm

re: #47 Ojoe

That is actually part of the explanation as the Church has its own law codes (cannon law) & has assumed it can operate on its own with its own laws on these matters.

The Talmudic principle is 'dina malchut dina', 'the law of the land is the law'. The Church may want to take that one on board.

112 darthstar  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:43:01pm

re: #104 Gus 802

What the?

I had to listen to it twice because I couldn't believe it. I can't wait for him to walk back his words...and I'm hoping it goes viral on the other networks. Hell, even Glenn Beck probably raised an eyebrow when he heard that one.

113 reine.de.tout  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:43:21pm

re: #89 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

So, Donahue is saying the Priests are "making love" to the boys, not raping them?

Seriously messed up, that.

Donahue is seriously messed up, and I wish he'd just get out of the way and let someone with some morals and ethics take over his job.

114 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:43:25pm

re: #93 darthstar

not surprised in the least.

115 darthstar  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:44:01pm

re: #110 Gordon marock

Sounds edited. The audio sounds very fishy.

Oh, for fuck's sake. Get some freakin' speakers on your computer.

116 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:44:03pm

re: #103 Bagua

It is completely wrong to say it's largely a learned behavior. There are no definite studies at all on the causes of pedophilia. There is lots of research, but no researcher would definitely say that it was a largely a learned behavior. that's merely one theory.

Furthermore, many pedophiles also have sex with adult women. It is not nearly as clear-cut as you make it out to be.

117 reine.de.tout  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:44:36pm

re: #108 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

aw
*delicate southren ladylike blush*

118 webevintage  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:44:37pm

re: #100 reine.de.tout

If there was ever an easy moral question, it should have been what to do with priests who molest children. You fight for the victim. Then you remove the perpetrator. You end the occasion of sin, so the priest, in this case the moral felon, never has the opportunity to act again.

You know The Church needs to not only do penance for the abuse the victims suffered, but also for their sin against the Priest who did the abusing.
Like Matthews said The Church, by passing them on and looking the other way, continued to put these men in situations that were an occasion to sin.
And that is a grievous sin all around.

119 Taqyia2Me  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:44:47pm

re: #93 darthstar

Sean Hannity praises Teabaggers as "Tim McVeigh wannabes"...and they cheer.
/facepalm

Context. As in, taken out of context.
As in, this looks like Sean was making fun of those who are calling Tea Partiers "Tim McVeigh wannabes."

120 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:44:51pm

re: #110 Gordon marock

Well, I hope that's true, but it really didn't seem edited to me.

121 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:45:07pm

re: #50 Obdicut

Ephebophilia is just as creepy, in many ways, as pedophilia. The power imbalance is still obviously there, and the abuse of someone who is just sexually emerging is no less harmful than the abuse of someone pre-pubescent.

You won't find survivors of sexual abuse telling each other, "Oh, you got raped by a priest when you were fifteen? Pshaw, that's not pedophilia, you were sexually mature: that's homosexuality!"

It's heartless as hell. I don't see how anyone making that argument can sleep at night.

I work with teenagers, and I couldn't agree more. This is surreal. And even if they want to successfully claim that sex with teenagers is not pedophilia, and that this is all about teh ghey, well, same basic problem. They covered up for predators. No excuse possible.

122 reine.de.tout  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:45:07pm

re: #118 webevintage

You know The Church needs to not only do penance for the abuse the victims suffered, but also for their sin against the Priest who did the abusing.
Like Matthews said The Church, by passing them on and looking the other way, continued to put these men in situations that were an occasion to sin.
And that is a grievous sin all around.

exactly.

123 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:45:18pm

re: #93 darthstar

Sean Hannity praises Teabaggers as "Tim McVeigh wannabes"...and they cheer.
/facepalm

Ugh. That's really bad.

124 Bagua  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:45:44pm

re: #105 researchok

You are correct, it is a widespread problem not particular to the Catholic Church. The problem with the Church is the culture of cover-up and enablement. But also access to to the preferred victims, which is identical to the Boy Scouts, schools, and other institutions that experience this problem.

125 Gordon marock  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:45:52pm

re: #115 darthstar

Oh, for fuck's sake. Get some freakin' speakers on your computer.

I could use some speakers, please feel free to send some nice ones. Otherwise, wait and see.

126 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:46:16pm

re: #51 iceweasel

The 'ephebbophilia' bullshit is meant to lessen the blame-- as though molesting 12-14 year old children is somehow less horrible than molesting younger children.
Frankly, to me it looks like victim blaming.

There has been many a culture, some of which are quite revered in the West, in which it was assumed that teenage boys were fair sexual game for grown men.

This is not one of them, nor has it been for quite some time.

Aaaaaahgggghhhh!

127 Jeff In Ohio  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:46:19pm

re: #110 Gordon marock

Sounds edited. The audio sounds very fishy.

I dunno, I put it through my A-Team Audio Analyzer and it sounds real to me.

128 ShaunP  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:46:55pm

re: #93 darthstar

Sean Hannity praises Teabaggers as "Tim McVeigh wannabes"...and they cheer.
/facepalm

Honestly, that's so far off the charts that I have to think that there was some mention earlier in his speech to others calling them that. I don't need another reason to dislike Hannity, but I want to see a transcript of the entire speech before reacting to just this little snippet. I'm calling 24 hour rule...

129 Dookiestain LaFlair  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:46:55pm

Crom laughs at your pope, he laughs from his mountain.

130 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:46:59pm

Roman Polanski still needs to rot.

131 Gordon marock  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:47:27pm

Anything from DailyKos is half crap half bullshit in my book.

132 Kragar  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:47:38pm

Did they have sex with people who were under the age of consent and considered to be minors under any interpretation under the law?

Yes.

End of story.

133 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:48:16pm

re: #56 Gordon marock

Can a celibate person not be a pedophile? Of course. Would I let my son go on a camping trip with a 'celibate' priest rather than a pastor who is married with children, hell no.

There have been enough children molested by married men with children that I would not consider that a reasonable standard.

The issue is not that there are sexual predators in the priesthood. The issue is that the Church sheltered them and favored them over their victims.

134 webevintage  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:48:16pm

re: #131 Gordon marock

Anything from DailyKos is half crap half bullshit in my book.

Yeah, kinda like FOX News.

135 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:48:30pm

re: #127 Jeff In Ohio
Out of context.....
He used the term"Tea baggers" ... a derogatory term he would not use unless he was refering to what the MSM is saying about the movement!

136 darthstar  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:48:54pm

re: #119 Taqyia2Me

Context. As in, taken out of context.
As in, this looks like Sean was making fun of those who are calling Tea Partiers "Tim McVeigh wannabes."

Transcript, motherfucker.

HANNITY: See, can I add one thing? I think we won the debate.

DREIER: We did win the debate.

HANNITY: When you think about the vast majorities that they have in Congress and they had to bribe, backroom deals, corruption, that’s all because the tea party movement, the people — all these Tim McVeigh wannabes here.

(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)

HANNITY: Guys, thank you for being here.

(CROSSTALK)

137 Gordon marock  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:49:13pm

re: #134 webevintage

No, not really.

138 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:49:19pm

re: #128 ShaunP

Yeah, I think it looks much worse out of context, and he was mocking those that called the protesters McVeigh wannabees. Though it's still very tasteless.

139 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:49:37pm

Words I never thought I'd post : Go Phelps!

Nate Phelps 'Returns to Topeka' Event
by Nate Phelps, RDFRS, The Center LGBT, Metropolitan Church of Topeka

RDFRS is proud to co-sponsor Nate Phelps' upcoming event in Topeka, Kansas. Nate is the estranged son of "God Hates Fags" Pastor Fred Phelps, and he is now returning to his hometown, which he hasn't been to in many years. Nate will tell his story of growing up in the family that founded the infamous Westboro Baptist Church, which he left at midnight on his 18th birthday.

The Richard Dawkins Foundation will be filming the event as part of an upcoming documentary about Nate's story of religious abuse, how he survived, and his mission to fix the laws that protect the perpetrators.

The event is FREE TO THE PUBLIC, so we encourage everyone in the area to attend if possible. This is also the first time one of the Phelps children has spoken out publicly against the church in their hometown.

If you or your group would like to help co-sponsor the event, please email Maureen Norton at maureennorton@richarddawkins.net.

[Link: richarddawkins.net...]

140 Jeff In Ohio  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:49:38pm

Here's the unedited, non-Kos version

Youtube Video
141 darthstar  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:49:43pm

re: #135 reloadingisnotahobby

Out of context...
He used the term"Tea baggers" ... a derogatory term he would not use unless he was refering to what the MSM is saying about the movement!

Actually, he said Tea partiers...not teabaggers. I said teabaggers.

142 Taqyia2Me  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:49:49pm

re: #136 darthstar

Show me the whole show, fuckdrip.

143 Gordon marock  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:50:16pm

re: #136 darthstar

The other interpretation is that Hannity was mocking the portrayal of the T partiers.

144 webevintage  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:50:25pm

re: #137 Gordon marock

No, not really.

Yeah, really.

145 Bagua  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:50:35pm

re: #116 Obdicut

It is completely wrong to say it's largely a learned behavior. There are no definite studies at all on the causes of pedophilia. There is lots of research, but no researcher would definitely say that it was a largely a learned behavior. that's merely one theory.

Furthermore, many pedophiles also have sex with adult women. It is not nearly as clear-cut as you make it out to be.

Again, you are arguing with yourself. I did not say "largely", I said "often" which the studies indicate. In the past it was considered true, more currently it is only considered a factor, but not in the majority of cases.

Also, I agree many pedophiles also have relations with adults women, in which case their actual category is different from fixated pedophiles. Also, some no-pedophiles also engage in pedophilia on occasion. There are a variety of legal and medical terms and categories, I do not claim the issue is clear cut.

146 Gus  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:50:44pm

re: #119 Taqyia2Me

Context. As in, taken out of context.
As in, this looks like Sean was making fun of those who are calling Tea Partiers "Tim McVeigh wannabes."

Hmm, I think you're right. I can't find the complete video of this but did find a recent comment from Hannity:

HANNITY: But — I never understood this from the beginning. But why would the Democratic Party specifically target the Tea Party movement? Tim McVeigh wannabes, un-American?

I mean what's more quintessentially American than saying kill the bill, exercising your First Amendment rights, limited government, lower taxes, speaking out against socialism? What's so bad about this?

He was being sarcastic in the video.

147 Jeff In Ohio  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:51:02pm

re: #142 Taqyia2Me

Show me the whole show, fuckdrip.

140, You more shredded than a Julienne salad, man.

148 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:51:22pm

re: #136 darthstar

That's going to look bad in any context. Imagine if an Imam called his congregation Little Mohammed Atta's and they cheered.

149 Gordon marock  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:51:34pm

re: #144 webevintage

Really??

150 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:51:37pm

re: #129 Dookiestain LaFlair

Oddness ding.

151 ShaunP  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:51:47pm

re: #146 Gus 802

He was being sarcastic in the video.

Guess we didn't need 24 hours... :p

152 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:52:18pm

re: #141 darthstar

Weirdly, this part:

When you think about the vast majorities that they have in Congress and they had to bribe, backroom deals, corruption-- that’s all because the tea party movement, the people

It kind of seems like he's saying those deals are necessary because the Tea Party people make national discourse a hysterical paranoia-fest. I doubt he meant it that way, though.

153 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:52:21pm

re: #135 reloadingisnotahobby

Out of context...
He used the term"Tea baggers" ... a derogatory term he would not use unless he was refering to what the MSM is saying about the movement!


Your right ..I was wrong!!
He said Tea Party Movement!
Sean....Open mouth insert large object!!

154 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:52:55pm

re: #136 darthstar

Still not the context. I agree. 24 hour rule.

I can't stand Hannity. Conservative and I've never liked him.

But 24 hours on that one, Darth.

155 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:52:59pm

re: #141 darthstar
Got it!!Thanks...

156 webevintage  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:53:00pm

re: #146 Gus 802

He was being sarcastic in the video.

I think so.
But whatever, he's a bastard and they not only lost the debate I think they will loose whatever "war of ideas" they are fighting.

157 webevintage  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:53:10pm

re: #149 Gordon marock

Really??

really.

158 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:53:35pm

re: #145 Bagua

You said:

Thus, it is largely a learned response which thrives in a culture that protects and perpetuates it.

This is not in any way known to be true. There are no definitive statements to be made about the sources of pedophilia, and you should stop saying that there are.

159 Taqyia2Me  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:53:36pm

re: #147 Jeff In Ohio

140, You more shredded than a Julienne salad, man.

re: #146 Gus 802

He was being sarcastic in the video.

No, I don't think so.

160 Gus  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:53:36pm

re: #151 ShaunP

Guess we didn't need 24 hours... :p

Yep. On its own it sounds pretty wild. Like Killgore said, as a sound byte it's going to look really bad.

161 Gordon marock  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:53:43pm

re: #157 webevintage

Are you April foolin?

162 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:53:46pm

re: #154 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

re: #155 reloadingisnotahobby

re: #156 webevintage

re: #149 Gordon marock

King of Swamp Castle: Please! This is supposed to be a happy occasion. Let's not bicker and argue over who killed who.

/ducks under desk.

163 webevintage  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:54:16pm

re: #161 Gordon marock

Are you April foolin?

Not at all buddy.

164 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:54:47pm

re: #154 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

re: #151 ShaunP

I'd really like a 24 hour rule at home!!!
Who's Campiagn do I need to send a check to???

165 bratwurst  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:55:22pm

re: #70 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, that took less than a minute.

Spare, if we start the history of sexual abuse in the world from the seventh century, it's going to take us a while to get to current events.

As I have pointed out before, the aphorism about every problem looking like a nail when the only tool you have is a hammer frequently comes to mind with this particular lizard.

166 darthstar  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:55:37pm

re: #146 Gus 802

He was being sarcastic in the video.

Hannity sucks at sarcasm.

167 Gus  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:55:44pm

re: #159 Taqyia2Me

No, I don't think so.

Facetious, ludicrous, flippant...

168 Gus  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:56:00pm

Pick one.

169 uncah91  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:56:03pm

As to why celibacy of the priesthood may be a problem, I think many people are missing a simple statistical argument.

Take 1000 jellybeans. One of them is booger flavored. It's green with black stripes (the pedophile).

Now remove the 510 pink ones (the women).

And remove the 480 blue ones (the men who are not going to give up the possibility of normal sexual relations gay or straight.)

And now, instead 1 in 1000 in your pool of possible applicants, you are looking at 1 in 10. It makes it much more likely you pull that booger out of the bag when you are picking.

It's so much that they are hidden or hard to detect, but that mistakes are going to always be made.

170 webevintage  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:56:13pm

re: #166 darthstar

Hannity sucks at sarcasm.

He seems to suck at running a charity too....

171 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:56:35pm

I had 2.5 inches of April Fools on this ground this am...
I didn't laugh!!

172 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:56:56pm

re: #165 bratwurst

As I have pointed out before, the aphorism about every problem looking like a nail when the only tool you have is a hammer frequently comes to mind with this particular lizard.

Though I do understand where you are going with that...if we uncovered all the pedo-ness in that culture/religion/group it would make the Catholic church look like a well...look like something. But I guess one group at a time I suppose.

173 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:57:08pm

re: #164 reloadingisnotahobby

re: #151 ShaunP

I'd really like a 24 hour rule at home!!!
Who's Campiagn do I need to send a check to???

I've told the wife many times... "If I ever say anything that can be taken two ways?... I MEANT THE GOOD ONE DAMMIT!"

174 bratwurst  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:57:39pm

re: #110 Gordon marock

Sounds edited. The audio sounds very fishy.

That is exactly how it was broadcast on FNC for what it is worth. I was watching.

175 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:57:47pm

re: #170 webevintage

That was discredited also...

176 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:58:03pm

re: #168 Gus 802
I like Flippant....sounds more fun!;-)

177 Gordon marock  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:58:10pm

Now that I have settled the issues raised in this thread, it's back to work.

178 Jeff In Ohio  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:58:14pm

Yeah, I watched the whole thing and I conclude that he's using it as a term of endearment.

179 cliffster  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:58:23pm

re: #171 reloadingisnotahobby

I had 2.5 inches of April Fools on this ground this am...
I didn't laugh!!

You are using a lot of exclamation points today!!!!

180 subsailor68  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:58:25pm

re: #136 darthstar

Hi darthstar. I watched the clip five times - to make sure I saw/heard what I think I did the first time. It really seems as though the crowd started clapping and cheering at the mention of tea partiers - before Hannity added in the Tim McVeigh wannabe line (not a good move on his part, however he meant it). So, the transcript could have been written:

HANNITY: See, can I add one thing? I think we won the debate.

DREIER: We did win the debate.

HANNITY: When you think about the vast majorities that they have in Congress and they had to bribe, backroom deals, corruption, that’s all because the tea party movement, the people (CROWD BEGINS TO CLAP AND CHEER) — all these Tim McVeigh wannabes here.

(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE CONTINUE)

HANNITY: Guys, thank you for being here.

(CROSSTALK)

So, it does look like the crowd was cheering the reference to the tea party movement.

181 Taqyia2Me  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:58:37pm

re: #168 Gus 802

Pick one.

I don't watch his show or listen to his radio program, but that is almost crystal clear misappropriation on the part of those who present it that way.
It's almost as if the left is wishing the right into violence, imho. Perhaps to justify:

Youtube Video
182 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:58:44pm

re: #177 Gordon marock

Now that I have settled the issues raised in this thread, it's back to work.

Thanks Gordo!
/

183 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:58:45pm

re: #130 Oh no...Sand People!

Roman Polanski still needs to rot.

But it was only hebephilia!!!

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

184 Gus  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:58:46pm

re: #173 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I've told the wife many times... "If I ever say anything that can be taken two ways?... I MEANT THE GOOD ONE DAMMIT!"

"Honey, take out the garbage!"

"Oh, dear. 24 hour rule! Let's wait 24 hours and see until then if we really need to take out the garbage."

//

185 Gordon marock  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:59:09pm

re: #182 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Any time.

186 Jeff In Ohio  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:59:22pm

re: #171 reloadingisnotahobby

I had 2.5 inches of April Fools on this ground this am...
I didn't laugh!!

That's sad. My asparagus broke dirt today, 2 weeks late, but glad to have them. They got a nice layer of composted manure and peat as a welcoming present.

187 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:59:49pm

re: #179 cliffster
Fucking QUOTAS...
Sheesh,Am I out?

188 ShaunP  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:00:10pm

re: #177 Gordon marock

Now that I have settled the issues raised in this thread, it's back to work.

- Catholic church needs to stop arguing and do the right thing
- Hannity was not praising Mcveigh, but is still a douche

Done and done. Any more world problems that we can solve today?

//

189 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:00:16pm

re: #143 Gordon marock

The other interpretation is that Hannity was mocking the portrayal of the T partiers.

Would you give such courtesy if some lefty pundit had addressed a crowd a 'Bill Ayers wannabes'?

190 webevintage  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:00:26pm

re: #175 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

That was discredited also...

Nope.
Vote Vets and CFE filed suit with the FTC and the IRS this week.
[Link: www.citizensforethics.org...]

I guess Debbie might have gotten this one right.

191 subsailor68  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:00:28pm

re: #184 Gus 802

"Honey, take out the garbage!"

"Oh, dear. 24 hour rule! Let's wait 24 hours and see until then if we really need to take out the garbage."

//

LOL! In my house, the definition of the 24 hour rule in your example would be "That's how long you'll be sleeping on the couch in the den mister!"

192 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:00:47pm

Well, you all take care. And to all lurkers, hug your kids, love them, take care of them and be smart about who and what you let associate with them.

193 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:00:58pm

re: #148 Killgore Trout

That's going to look bad in any context. Imagine if an Imam called his congregation Little Mohammed Atta's and they cheered.

Well, you see, that wouldn't be sarcasm.


////We'd be able to tell. Plus, Muslims have no sense of humor. Well-known fact.

194 Bagua  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:00:59pm

re: #158 Obdicut

You said:

This is not in any way known to be true. There are no definitive statements to be made about the sources of pedophilia, and you should stop saying that there are.

"Largely" is accurate based upon current research. It is one of the few risk factors that can be isolated. It is not, however, the case in the majority of instances studied, but it is a key factor.

You should stop making semantic arguments and uninformed comments such as "this is not in any way known to be true." That is false and you are argumentative.

195 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:01:05pm

re: #184 Gus 802
No...not like that!
Just for future reference!

196 darthstar  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:01:07pm

re: #180 subsailor68

So, it does look like the crowd was cheering the reference to the tea party movement.

I still think they all suck scrotum. By the way, I don't think Reagan would approve of them using his library as a backdrop for their anti-government rhetoric. Reagan was far more liberal than these fucktards.

197 zora  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:01:11pm

re: #136 darthstar

Gun Advocates Plan DC March On 15th Anniversary Of Oklahoma City Bombing

[Link: thinkprogress.org...]

198 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:01:34pm

re: #190 webevintage

Whoa!

199 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:02:13pm

re: #190 webevintage

Huh. I really thought that an investigation had already cleared him.

I still hope that he's cleared. I disagree with his politics but I'd rather not think that badly of him.

200 subsailor68  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:02:56pm

re: #196 darthstar

I still think they all suck scrotum. By the way, I don't think Reagan would approve of them using his library as a backdrop for their anti-government rhetoric. Reagan was far more liberal than these fucktards.

Quite concur with all you say - especially about Reagan.

;-)

201 Liet_Kynes  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:03:34pm

re: #9 Obdicut

Possibly. The Vatican has been concerned about the Church in America becoming schismatic - after all there is the heresy of Americanism - since the late 1950's. This goes both ways as "ultra-rigorist" and "progressivism" trends in America are viewed with worry, though the progressivisms trend has been dominant for the last 50 years in America, though it has begun largely to recede as there are, by and large, no new progressivists to replace the graying Catholic progressive movement.

The position of the Vatican has tended towards a "seclude let them die off" policy towards those that pull away from orthodoxy and orthopraxy rather than a direct confrontation with canonical penalties that would risk schism. To clean house in a very public manner, as most people want and as should be done, will result in open warfare against the progressive wing of the Church. Catholic dogma doesn’t see the sexual abuse problem as disconnected from homosexuality in general, contraception, abortion, and even divorce and re-marriage to name a few because they all stem from the same problem; rejection of a basic Catholic understanding of human sexuality. Fixing one issue, pedophilia/homosexuality in the priesthood, requires fixing the rest.

202 Jeff In Ohio  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:03:39pm

re: #181 Taqyia2Me

I don't watch his show or listen to his radio program, but that is almost crystal clear misappropriation on the part of those who present it that way.
It's almost as if the left is wishing the right into violence, imho. Perhaps to justify:

[Video]

So, what's the plan, man? You gonna talk Vietnamese to those dudes?

203 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:04:22pm

re: #194 Bagua

"Largely" is accurate based upon current research.

No, it isn't. Your assertion doesn't make it at all true. There is no consensus at all in psychiatric research about the origins of pedophilia. Or about the origins of pretty much any behavior, for that matter.

That it is one of the few things that can be isolated is a good indication that we have no way of knowing if it's 'largely' a learned behavior. That that we cannot isolate we can't judge the influence and import of.

204 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:04:23pm

re: #197 zora

They don't see a problem with that plan?
...Because T.Mc Viegh used a bomb...not a gun?
Idiots!

205 webevintage  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:04:29pm

re: #198 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Whoa!

Indeed.

206 bratwurst  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:04:51pm

re: #172 Oh no...Sand People!

Though I do understand where you are going with that...if we uncovered all the pedo-ness in that culture/religion/group it would make the Catholic church look like a well...look like something. But I guess one group at a time I suppose.

Though I can, in turn, understand where you are going with what you are saying...there are a LOT of things that took place in the seventh century that would appall any of us today. Their relationship with the present issue at hand is non-existent.

207 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:05:26pm

re: #190 webevintage

Sorry, web. I just don't buy it. If Sean loses the lawsuit? Then I'll freak out. Just don't think he's that stupid.

Wouldn't be hubris. Would be absolute stone wall stupid.

208 Bagua  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:05:54pm

Note that:

Pedophiles often report environmental stress as a factor that increases their urges or desire to offend against children.

One of the most obvious examples of an environmental factor that increases the chances of an individual becoming an offender is if he or she were sexually abused as a child. This relationship is known as the “victim-to-abuser cycle” or “abused-abusers phenomena.” The frequency of occurrence of this phenomenon varies widely on the basis of study selection criteria and the populations studied. The numbers reported for pedophiles who were abused as children range from 28% to 93% vs approximately 15% for random controls. Studies that examined females who committed sexual acts against children reported that 47% to 100% of them had experienced sexual assault as children. Individuals who engage in homosexual pedophilia were more likely to have been abused than individuals who engage in heterosexual pedophilia.24 Some studies have also found that pedophiles and hebophiles who were abused tend to have an age preference for children that is similar to the age at which they were abused.

Link with many citations

Clearly the "abused-abusers" phenomena is one of the key factors, and one of the only know factors at the present time.

209 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:05:55pm

re: #201 Liet_Kynes

Well-put, and you obviously have a more present understanding of church politics than I.

Do you see any danger of schism from the church in the developing world, then? That's something I've wondered about.

210 darthstar  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:05:58pm

re: #199 Obdicut

Huh. I really thought that an investigation had already cleared him.

I still hope that he's cleared. I disagree with his politics but I'd rather not think that badly of him.

I think Hannity was just riding the high horse of privilege. I don't think he is actually involved or interested in where the money goes. He just likes getting the attention, and by attaching his name to the charity he can show what a great guy he is. If he was smart (but he's not smart, as we all know), he would have at least feigned outrage that the money he'd been raising wasn't getting to the people he was raising it for, and demanded that change or he'd pull his name from the program. Then he'd be above criticism. Instead, he dug his heels in and denied any possible problems...that makes him look guilty.

211 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:06:16pm

re: #201 Liet_Kynes

Either prosecute them in a Court of Law or banish them to
a leper colony!
Try and get some there!!!

212 Taqyia2Me  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:06:43pm

re: #202 Jeff In Ohio

So, what's the plan, man? You gonna talk Vietnamese to those dudes?

Plan? I don't even have a clue, much less a plan!?!

213 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:07:04pm

re: #208 Bagua


Clearly the "abused-abusers" phenomena is one of the key factors, and one of the only know factors at the present time.

That is a self-contradictory sentence. If it is one of the only factors known, you cannot definitively say that it is a key factor.

214 darthstar  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:07:06pm

re: #211 reloadingisnotahobby

Either prosecute them in a Court of Law or banish them to
a leper colony!
Try and get some there!!!

What did the leper say to the prostitute?
Keep the tip.

215 Taqyia2Me  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:07:56pm

re: #214 darthstar

What did the leper say to the prostitute?
Keep the tip.

That'll leave more than a mark

216 Bagua  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:09:19pm

re: #203 Obdicut

No, it isn't. Your assertion doesn't make it at all true. There is no consensus at all in psychiatric research about the origins of pedophilia. Or about the origins of pretty much any behavior, for that matter.

That it is one of the few things that can be isolated is a good indication that we have no way of knowing if it's 'largely' a learned behavior. That that we cannot isolate we can't judge the influence and import of.

Read my #208, what I have said is well supported by the literature, but it is a complex issue to be sure.

"Largely" in the way I am using it means it is one of the key factors currently understood, in 28% to 93% of the cases. There are no other factors with that sort of influence.

217 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:09:26pm

I can not believe I am still on the phone with McAfee after more than 2 fucking hours.

My ear is totally numb.

218 avanti  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:09:57pm

re: #180 subsailor68

Hi darthstar. I watched the clip five times - to make sure I saw/heard what I think I did the first time. It really seems as though the crowd started clapping and cheering at the mention of tea partiers - before Hannity added in the Tim McVeigh wannabe line (not a good move on his part, however he meant it). So, the transcript could have been written:

HANNITY: See, can I add one thing? I think we won the debate.

DREIER: We did win the debate.

HANNITY: When you think about the vast majorities that they have in Congress and they had to bribe, backroom deals, corruption, that’s all because the tea party movement, the people (CROWD BEGINS TO CLAP AND CHEER) — all these Tim McVeigh wannabes here.

(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE CONTINUE)

HANNITY: Guys, thank you for being here.

(CROSSTALK)

So, it does look like the crowd was cheering the reference to the tea party movement.

In fairness, I agree. He was mocking the perception of the tea party, and some of the crowd was applauding that, some probobly did not know who Tim McVeigh was.
I'm not a fan of the tea parties, but don't think they were intentionally cheering a domestic terrorist either.

219 Bagua  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:10:05pm

re: #217 Alouette

Did you see my post last thread? The solution is easy and clearly spelled out.

220 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:10:24pm

re: #217 Alouette

Ludwig asked a question of you in the last thread regarding your grandfather, by the way.

221 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:10:29pm

Uh... Oh...

222 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:10:59pm

re: #12 zora

so let me see. the church did not cover up pedophilia. the church covered up homosexual rape and sent the rapists from parish to parish. so that is ok? wtf.

No, but you need to understand that this way they get to slander their arch-enemies and nemesis the Homosexuals and their "gay agenda" in order to take them down into purgatory with them.

Donohue knows that it is completely indefensible, therefore his only option is to make it about the "queers" instead of about the longterm and systemic abuse of children and the concerted effort to hide it by the self-proclaimed men of God.

Donohue is an professional apologist lately, his current main function in life seems to be trying to excuse the inexcusable on a daily basis. (besides that, he's an asshole.

Youtube Video
223 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:11:46pm

re: #216 Bagua

Your backpedal is still incomplete. First of all, admitting that it may be present in only 28% of cases means that 'largely' is incorrect on any grounds. Second, to repeat, if you do not know other confounding factors you do not know what the key factors are. There might be something tied with abuse that is the actual factor, with abuse present as the co-factor. You do not know.

224 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:11:52pm

re: #217 Alouette
McAfee's?? The Pub?
While you've got them on the line could ya get me a
Corned Beef on Pumpernicle,with Picles!
Please?

225 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:12:14pm

re: #221 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Somone get Gordon Freeman a crowbar, stat.

226 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:12:26pm

re: #224 reloadingisnotahobby

Picles? Who dat?

227 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:13:32pm

re: #210 darthstar

According to everything I've read it sounds like he was in charge of the whole racket along with North. While there was a marketing firm involved in the grunt work of setting up the acts and venues it seems this is HIS foundation or whatever. Of course given that hannity is all about personal responsibility I am sure we'll hear how it's all the marketing company's fault.

228 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:14:12pm

re: #221 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
What they expect !!
Messin with a Hard on Collider anyway!!
Dumb asses!!/

229 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:14:25pm

re: #209 Obdicut

Well-put, and you obviously have a more present understanding of church politics than I.

Do you see any danger of schism from the church in the developing world, then? That's something I've wondered about.

In Latin America, (and among immigrants to the States from that area) the Church has begun to lose numbers to various evangelical denominations.

230 cliffster  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:14:29pm

re: #221 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Uh... Oh...

People are having deja vu in record numbers

231 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:14:46pm

re: #226 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

....missed a k...sue me!LOL

232 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:15:03pm

re: #217 Alouette

I can not believe I am still on the phone with McAfee after more than 2 fucking hours.

My ear is totally numb.

Can someone take the phone from you for a while?

233 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:15:31pm

re: #84 Gus 802

Pardon me. But what the heck does Mohamed have to do with this?

There are those who point out that Mohamed was a pedophile because he married Aisha when she was only 6 years old. The feeble excuse sometimes put forward is that Moe waited until Aisha was 9 years old before he screwed her - the implication being that he waited until she hit puberty.
In Donohue's case, he has put forward a defence which is strikingly similar and no less idiotic.
This ironic interfaith parallel has obviously struck a nerve with some people, and I really don't understand why.

234 Liet_Kynes  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:15:32pm

re: #18 Obdicut

I agree, but think that there have been priests and bishops who have been good about saying "we have sinned". I would also add that the Church is not the clerics so those who are lay or religious members of the Church must also collectively apologize and do penance for the sins of others. If we ask it of the Bishops who are not part of the problem, then we must also ask it of the entire body of the Church. At Easter it is a good reminder that the faults of others often fall upon a good man and we all should be willing to do penance for the wrongs done by others.

235 Bagua  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:15:36pm

re: #223 Obdicut

Your backpedal is still incomplete. First of all, admitting that it may be present in only 28% of cases means that 'largely' is incorrect on any grounds. Second, to repeat, if you do not know other confounding factors you do not know what the key factors are. There might be something tied with abuse that is the actual factor, with abuse present as the co-factor. You do not know.

Whatever, I'm not interested in your circular arguments over the exact definitions of words. One of the only known factors that appears in 28% to 93% of the studies cases is certainly a "key" factor, though not the only or even necessarily the major factor.

Stop being so argumentative.

236 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:18:07pm

re: #218 avanti

The problem is that the right is eager to embrace labels like "right wing extremist" after the DHS memo. Mocking or not, it looks bad and provides cover for domestic terrorists. They're also doing the same with racism. They claim that no matter what they do they'll still be called racist. However, they allow racists to attend the Tea Parties and hold racist signs. The Tea Parties are giving cover to racists and extremists and RS McCain, Malkin and Ron Paul could not be happier about it.

237 zelnaga  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:18:35pm

Seems to me like some of the problem may stem from the fact that society, as a whole, is more condemning of girls who aren't virgins than guys who aren't virgins. ie. maybe priests are targeting young males more than young females because in doing so they believe what they're doing isn't as wrong as it could have been? Because they believe it won't impact boys as much as it'd impact girls?

Or maybe girls are being targeted just as much as males and male sex abuse is just being reported more in the media because it has more of a "eww yuck" factor than female sex abuse?

238 webevintage  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:19:16pm

re: #217 Alouette

I can not believe I am still on the phone with McAfee after more than 2 fucking hours.

My ear is totally numb.

They probably can't help you.

239 Taqyia2Me  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:19:47pm

re: #236 Killgore Trout

The problem is that the right is eager to embrace labels like "right wing extremist" after the DHS memo. Mocking or not, it looks bad and provides cover for domestic terrorists. They're also doing the same with racism. They claim that no matter what they do they'll still be called racist. However, they allow racists to attend the Tea Parties and hold racist signs. The Tea Parties are giving cover to racists and extremists and RS McCain, Malkin and Ron Paul could not be happier about it.


..and that ain't right. KT nailed it on the head.

240 cliffster  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:20:21pm

The most effective way to prevent viruses on Windows: leave your computer off.

241 Kragar  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:20:34pm

Damn, I'm thinking the Deviled Egss I had with lunch might have been a really bad call on my part.

242 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:20:54pm

re: #235 Bagua

One of the only known factors that appears in 28% to 93% of the studies cases is certainly a "key" factor, though not the only or even necessarily the major factor.

I'm sorry, but your lack of acknowledgement of what I'm saying doesn't make it circular.

As I've said, if you do not know the other factors, you cannot evaluate to know if they are key or not. It might be found, for example, that physical, rather than sexual abuse is a larger factor. And if you can't actually tell if something occurs with a frequency of 28% or 93%, it's obviously not in the least bit a settled part of research.

For example, from this paper:

[Link: www.springerlink.com...]

Further analysis demonstrated, however, that pedophiles who admitted having an erotic interest in children significantly more often claimed that they had been sexually abused as children than pedophiles who did not admit having such feelings. This interdependence renders the reliability of these self-reports questionable

You are depending largely on self-reporting from pedophiles for your analysis. There are obvious problems with that.


Stop being so argumentative.

I'm not going to stop pointing out the flaws in your arguments, no.

243 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:22:00pm

re: #217 Alouette

I can not believe I am still on the phone with McAfee after more than 2 fucking hours.

My ear is totally numb.

I don't know what your particular issue it, but just thought I would mention that Microsoft has easily downloadable free anti-virus software called Security Essentials. I got rid of my Norton's Antivirus a few months ago and have been very happy ever since.

244 Bagua  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:22:45pm

re: #237 zelnaga

Seems to me like some of the problem may stem from the fact that society, as a whole, is more condemning of girls who aren't virgins than guys who aren't virgins. ie. maybe priests are targeting young males more than young females because in doing so they believe what they're doing isn't as wrong as it could have been? Because they believe it won't impact boys as much as it'd impact girls?

Or maybe girls are being targeted just as much as males and male sex abuse is just being reported more in the media because it has more of a "eww yuck" factor than female sex abuse?

No, many girls are also victims of sex crimes. More than boys in fact.

The central problem to understanding this is from the perspective of normal psychology. Thus we look for excuses, such as celibacy or social factors to explain this because we do not understand how the fixated pedophile thinks and we are trying to understand him. We must look from the perspective of abnormal psychology.

Bottom line, the fixated pedophile is attracted to children, period.

245 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:22:46pm

re: #238 webevintage

They probably can't help you.

I held for an hour and a half to someone once, they put me on hold... I got disconnected.

They didn't call me back. I decided I'd live with the problem. Turned out to be not so big a deal after all.

246 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:23:17pm

re: #242 Obdicut

PIMF: The sentence:

You are depending largely on self-reporting from pedophiles for your analysis. There are obvious problems with that.

Was mine, not from the article.

247 Gus  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:23:59pm

re: #233 Spare O'Lake

Understood.

248 ShaunP  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:24:11pm

re: #243 Spare O'Lake

I don't know what your particular issue it, but just thought I would mention that Microsoft has easily downloadable free anti-virus software called Security Essentials. I got rid of my Norton's Antivirus a few months ago and have been very happy ever since.

AVG or Avast. Norton is probably the worst antivirus software I've ever worked with...

249 Bagua  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:24:27pm

re: #242 Obdicut

Again, argue with yourself. I care not what you say. You follow the same predictable pattern every time you engage. You have no credibility with me.

250 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:25:19pm

re: #110 Gordon marock

Sounds edited. The audio sounds very fishy.

Check your calender for today's date.

251 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:25:30pm

re: #248 ShaunP

I'm fond of Avast-- they had one screwup recently identifying a harmless (but useful) file as malware, but it's the only mistake I've known them to make.

252 bratwurst  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:25:37pm

re: #166 darthstar

Hannity sucks at sarcasm.

I also contend that his "friendly banter" with Greta is the lamest 90 seconds on nightly television.

253 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:25:47pm

re: #241 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Ditto for me and my corned beef reuben, order of fresh fries and side of fresh coleslaw.

254 zelnaga  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:25:56pm

re: #244 Bagua

No, many girls are also victims of sex crimes. More than boys in fact.

The central problem to understanding this is from the perspective of normal psychology. Thus we look for excuses, such as celibacy or social factors to explain this because we do not understand how the fixated pedophile thinks and we are trying to understand him. We must look from the perspective of abnormal psychology.

Bottom line, the fixated pedophile is attracted to children, period.

I meant sex crimes perpetrated by catholic priests. Are girls more victimized by priests than boys are?

255 Gus  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:26:03pm

re: #248 ShaunP

AVG or Avast. Norton is probably the worst antivirus software I've ever worked with...

Norton, blech. Bleh. Yuck.

Norton is a virus. //

Norton, the antivirus software that thinks it's an operating system. //

256 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:27:22pm

I think the emphasis on celibacy as a contributing factor in these cases is misguided, for a number of reasons.

Lots of people live celibate lives, some by choice or religious vow (and not only Catholic clergy), and others not.
We don't expect celibacy to be an excuse or justification, or a mitigating circumstance, for rape or molestation in those cases, and neither is it here.

That being said, one of the problems that has led to this crisis in the Church has been the celibacy requirement-- specifically, the difficulty of attracting men to the priesthood and the gigantic drop off in numbers of clergy, starting in the 60's. Fewer applicants increases the likelihood of letting bad applicants in.

But even so, the real problem here (apart from the endemic coverup and culture of silence within the Church admin), is and has always been the Catholic Church's attitude toward sexuality in general and female sexuality in particular. It's a culture of shame. Women and sexual desire are treated as lesser and other, consequently some of the men steeped in that culture (like priests) act as they do.
Individual Catholics may disagree with me here, saying that they don't have those feelings about women or sexuality, or that their friends and family don't, or even that they know individual clergy who don't. I'm not disputing that at all-- but my point remains.

Bear in mind here that the official position of the Catholic church IS that sex is only for procreation-- that is one reason for the prohibition on birth control. Many Protestant denominations regard sexuality between a man and a wife as one of God's gifts, meant to bring the couple even closer together. While some individual Catholic parishes will say this, and this is the sort of thing that many Catholic couples going to pre-Cana are taught-- it isn't standard and it is contradicted by the Church's official positions on birth control.

That is one of the features of Catholicism that I think would need to be drastically changed, as well as the other institutional problems-- the general attitudes towards women and sexuality. Accordingly, the problem runs a lot deeper than the individuals involved in the coverups, and unfortunately I don't see the kind of drastic change that would be required happening easily or soon.

257 ShaunP  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:28:39pm

re: #255 Gus 802

Norton, blech. Bleh. Yuck.

Norton is a virus. //

Norton, the antivirus software that thinks it's an operating system. //

My problem is that every time I've switched a computer from Norton to another brand, the new program finds HUNDREDS of threats. I know that none are foolproof, but damn...

258 sffilk  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:29:27pm

As I'm not a lawyer, let me pose this:

If it's not pedophelia (as the "person" alleges), what about rape?

259 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:29:56pm

re: #244 Bagua

No, many girls are also victims of sex crimes. More than boys in fact.

The central problem to understanding this is from the perspective of normal psychology. Thus we look for excuses, such as celibacy or social factors to explain this because we do not understand how the fixated pedophile thinks and we are trying to understand him. We must look from the perspective of abnormal psychology.

Bottom line, the fixated pedophile is attracted to children, period.

Bottom bottom line: Pedophiles have no place in a religious organization or any other position of power or trust. They must be screened out if at all possible before they get in, and if they are mistakenly let in then they must be excommunicated and criminally prosecuted to the full extent of the law WITHOUT ANY SECOND CHANCES AND WITHOUT ANY COVERUP.

260 Gus  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:30:30pm

re: #257 ShaunP

My problem is that every time I've switched a computer from Norton to another brand, the new program finds HUNDREDS of threats. I know that none are foolproof, but damn...

I had some maleware once and tested NOD32, McAfee and Kaspersky. Kaspersky won. Previously I spent almost a whole day removing Norton AV.

261 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:30:37pm

re: #16 webevintage


This is not a place for three strikes and you`re out. It is not a place where Christian sympathy should go to the adult abuser of this trust between child and churchman. It`s the place where the first, indeed overwhelming claimant to our sympathy and to justice must be the child, the vulnerable young boy who finds himself under the power of a priest of Jesus Christ, an heir to the disciples, a servant in the tradition of the Apostles.

If there was ever an easy moral question, it should have been what to do with priests who molest children. You fight for the victim. Then you remove the perpetrator. You end the occasion of sin, so the priest, in this case the moral felon, never has the opportunity to act again.

I would add what I said last night.
I want to hear repentance.
I want 2011 to be the year The Church goes though a deep and meaningful penance.
I want the Pope and the Cardinals and the Bishops to throw off their vestments and wear some form of sack cloth and ashes for that year.
I don't want the Pope to resign, I want him to take responsibility.
I'd like to see the church bring any victim to Rome who is willing and have the Pope personally apologize to them.
I want them all to say over and over again (and I don't care that it is no longer happening or that most of them were never involved or that a good amount of the perps are dead):
"We have sinned grievously"

This is perfectly said. I am appalled by this situation. When I first started hearing about pedophile abuses in the Church some years ago, my default assumption was that this was a case of a very small number of very bad apples being used to unfairly smear an entire faith. While I never once doubted any given victim of one of these crimes, I never appreciated the true widespread scale of the problem or the complicity of the Church in covering it up. Again, my default assumption was that we were talking about a few isolated cover ups. I had that default assumption because I would ask myself how I would feel if G-d forbid, a rabbi were involved in such a scandal. I didn't want to be unjust to decent Catholic people everywhere and hurt them with an unfair shot or stray comment.

However, enough is enough. It is now utterly obvious that there is a huge problem endemic in the Church. I don't care to speculate why so very many pedophiles end up in the priesthood. What ever my hypothesis on such a thing would be is irrelevant to the larger issue that we are not talking about a few cases or even a few hundred cases. We are talking about tens of thousands of cases and a massive and incompetent cover up and culture of returning these predators to positions where they can abuse.

All of those Silent Catholics who pretend the problem does not exist, need to clean their own house even if this is a very painful thing to even look at. This formerly neutral and sympathetic (to Catholics in general about this issue) observer has come to blame you for doing so very little about what is now something obvious. How can you possibly stand for this?

This is also a wonderful case of where I adore the Separation of Church and State. At some point, a simple application of the law as it stands that would put these fallen priests and the bishops or higher that covered it up in prison for a few years would do the job. Individual Catholics should be the first people demanding this. I applaud those who are speaking out and I am disgusted at the weakness of those who say nothing.

262 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:30:46pm

re: #249 Bagua

Bagua: One of the papers talking about the percentage of pedophiles who self-report as having been abused notes that these self-reports are of questionable validity. The proper response to this is not to abuse me, but to acknowledge that that is, indeed, a problem with making the argument that abuse is a key factor in the cause of pedophilia.

In this case, I am following the pattern of knowing quite a lot about this subject, and showing the logical flaws in your argument.

1. You are claiming that in a subject where we don't know all of the factors that something has been determined to be a key factor.

2. You are presenting an incidence of 28% to 98% as though it is significant, when it obviously shows that we are not very confident at all about the actual incidence.

3. You are failing to acknowledge that the very people doing this research are warning that relying on self-reporting from pedophiles is very questionable.

263 Bagua  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:30:55pm

re: #254 zelnaga

I meant sex crimes perpetrated by catholic priests. Are girls more victimized by priests than boys are?


I see. From what I've read it is mostly boys in the priest cases. The circumstances appear to enable that, just as a fixated pedophile attracted to boys will join the Boy Scouts, not the Girl Scouts.

In wider society girls are more frequently victimised, in "special" circumstances, such as the Church, BOA, single sex schools and such, one would find a divergence from society at large.

264 Taqyia2Me  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:31:05pm

re: #258 sffilk

As I'm not a lawyer, let me pose this:

If it's not pedophelia (as the "person" alleges), what about rape?

Except for all pedophelia, by definition, is rape.

265 cliffster  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:31:29pm

re: #259 Spare O'Lake

Bottom bottom line: Pedophiles have no place in a religious organization or any other position of power or trust the world.

slight correction

266 Kragar  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:31:30pm

re: #253 Dreggas

Ditto for me and my corned beef reuben, order of fresh fries and side of fresh coleslaw.

My digestive tract is currently debating the merits of solid, liquid or gas.

267 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:32:43pm

re: #266 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

same here LOL.

268 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:33:04pm

re: #262 Obdicut

93%. PIMF.

269 Gus  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:33:11pm

re: #266 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

My digestive tract is currently debating the merits of solid, liquid or gas.

If you have a Guinness then you can check off liquid and gas.

271 Bagua  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:34:16pm

re: #259 Spare O'Lake

Bottom bottom line: Pedophiles have no place in a religious organization or any other position of power or trust. They must be screened out if at all possible before they get in, and if they are mistakenly let in then they must be excommunicated and criminally prosecuted to the full extent of the law WITHOUT ANY SECOND CHANCES AND WITHOUT ANY COVERUP.

Correct. And note what I am saying is that screening out homosexuals from these positions will not reduce the incidence of pedophilia as Donohue alleged falsely. We must screen for pedophilia, not adult sexual behaviours.

Also, we must try to understand the pedophiles psychology, and not look for easy explanations such as celibacy as a causative factor as research disputes this.

272 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:34:26pm

re: #266 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

re: #267 Dreggas
Well then!
Will it be paper or plastic today...??
Get feeling better!

273 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:34:38pm

re: #257 ShaunP

My problem is that every time I've switched a computer from Norton to another brand, the new program finds HUNDREDS of threats. I know that none are foolproof, but damn...

Go get yourself Microsoft Security Essentials, it's all you need for virus protection. My hyper-geek haX0R friends (well, the ones with Windows boxes) are using it now, they've ditched their other virus software.

274 BenghaziHoops  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:34:57pm

re: #256 iceweasel

What is really Shocking.. Is how widespread this is.. I mean these are Men of God and I figured there may be a few bad apples and frauds..
My Lord..This is all around the world. And it so widespread it's incredible in the Depths of scandal..
The church has lead children to the gates of hell..

275 b_Snark  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:35:15pm

re: #93 darthstar

Sean Hannity praises Teabaggers as "Tim McVeigh wannabes"...and they cheer.
/facepalm

There is something very wrong going on in your country and to a lesser extent, mine.

276 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:35:33pm

Thank you for your prayers for my dad.

I'm still having the problem with Mcafee, now they claim my daughter has no subscription even though she paid for it last night.

I have been on the phone for over 2 and a half fucking hours. I am a freaking wreck.

277 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:36:15pm

re: #276 Alouette

Thank you for your prayers for my dad.

I'm still having the problem with Mcafee, now they claim my daughter has no subscription even though she paid for it last night.

I have been on the phone for over 2 and a half fucking hours. I am a freaking wreck.

May I please have his mother's name?

278 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:37:09pm

re: #274 HoosierHoops

What is really Shocking.. Is how widespread this is.. I mean these are Men of God and I figured there may be a few bad apples and frauds..
My Lord..This is all around the world. And it so widespread it's incredible in the Depths of scandal..
The church has lead children to the gates of hell..

Yeah. It looks like we had exactly the same sets of reactions for the same reasons.

279 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:37:24pm

re: #277 LudwigVanQuixote

May I please have his mother's name?

Rivka, same name as my daughter

280 subsailor68  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:37:26pm

re: #277 LudwigVanQuixote

May I please have his mother's name?

Hi Ludwig! Alouette posted on the other thread:

His mother's name was Rivka
Pinhas ben Rivka

281 Taqyia2Me  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:37:34pm

re: #261 LudwigVanQuixote

I voted with my feet.

282 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:37:57pm

re: #277 LudwigVanQuixote

She posted it last thread.


His mother's name was Rivka
Pinhas ben Rivka
283 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:38:32pm

re: #270 WindUpBird

I wonder if they'll end up actually selling those because of high demand from people who lack calendars.

284 subsailor68  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:39:05pm

Well all, must go. Hope everyone has a terrific evening.

285 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:40:08pm

re: #274 HoosierHoops

What is really Shocking.. Is how widespread this is.. I mean these are Men of God and I figured there may be a few bad apples and frauds..
My Lord..This is all around the world. And it so widespread it's incredible in the Depths of scandal..
The church has lead children to the gates of hell..

Exactly. It's endemic. And it affects not only the victims and their families, but all good Catholics. So many have lost their faith as a result. We should remember them too when we think about the harm these evil men and their enablers have caused.

286 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:40:24pm

Lovely thing to bring forward during Holy Week, Donohue. Really nice.

287 Gus  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:40:35pm

re: #270 WindUpBird

The monolith action figure!

Beware of the monolith! It is evil!

Youtube Video
288 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:40:47pm

Have a great Easter weekend!!
He is risen!
BBL
and Shalom!

289 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:40:54pm

re: #3 Bagua

Re-post from prior thread:

Technically he is correct in that the medical definition for pedophilia involves perversion involving an adult and pre-pubescent children. Many of the priest cases are technically Hebephilia, which is the attraction to early pubescent children or Ephebophilia which is the preference for the 15-19 year old range. Though these terms are also used interchangeably.

Yet neither Hebephilia nor Ephebophilia is in common usage by law enforcement which defines a minor child by chronological age, not sexual maturity. This definition relies on the age of consent, which varies from state to state and nation to nation.

Regardless, a semantic argument such as this is a diversionary tactic, and also a slander to normal homosexuals who are not perverts nor criminals. It is universally understood that the "pedophile" priests are not normal homosexuals, almost all exhibit a form of Chronophilia that violates social and civil codes.

Thanks. I was groping for those words, but couldn't remember them clearly enough to google them.

290 b_Snark  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:41:59pm

re: #96 Spare O'Lake

PC much? The comparison immediately jumped out at me, and I felt no particular need to suppress it.

Instead of pulling out the PC card, which is just a label used to avoid dealing with the issue, perhaps you could tell us why Obdicut shouldn't comment on your useless and meaningless anti-islam BS.

291 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:42:12pm

re: #271 Bagua

Correct. And note what I am saying is that screening out homosexuals from these positions will not reduce the incidence of pedophilia as Donohue alleged falsely. We must screen for pedophilia, not adult sexual behaviours.

Absolutely agreed.



Also, we must try to understand the pedophiles psychology, and not look for easy explanations such as celibacy as a causative factor as research disputes this.

No, as stated above. There is no current consensus or in any way agreed upon theory for the emergence of pedophilia. I do not personally believe celibacy causes anything, nor do I believe the incidence of actual celibacy (as in, no masturbation) in the priesthood is very high anyway.

292 Liet_Kynes  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:43:42pm

re: #76 Obdicut

Let me clear some things up really quick.

1. The Catholic Church doesn’t require celibacy for all priests. Only priests of the Roman Rite are required to be celibate and even then there are exceptions.

2. Celibacy is not “sexually unusual”. All non-married individuals are required to be celibate. A vow to celibacy does not require the priest to enter into a new form of life but rather just requires the priest to continue on in the life that they had been living.

3. Being celibate does not require an individual to give up their sexuality. They are not required to be gender neutral or less masculine. In fact a castrated or impotent man cannot be ordained a Catholic priest. A true understanding of being a priest requires the man to be strongly masculine in response and as a counter sign to the Church’s femininity.

RE:A – This isn’t correct. As the celibate environment is the same inside of the priesthood as outside of the priesthood people are not drawn to the priesthood as a means for controlling their urges as the exact same means for controlling urges are found in and outside of the priesthood. You find just as many pedophiles (in fact slightly more) in public schools so the argument is wholly unfounded.

RE:B – Again celibacy is not a sexually unusual state of being. Most people spend most of their lives celibate. Many marriages have long periods of celibacy. Yes there is a HUGE problem with the Church not correctly screening sexual abnormality from her seminaries, but the lions share of the problem comes from what is “sexual abnormality” being redefined and seminaries not following Vatican guide lines. Buck stops at the top, but the root of the problem lies at the bottom.

293 Bagua  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:44:15pm

re: #291 Obdicut

No, as stated above. There is no current consensus or in any way agreed upon theory for the emergence of pedophilia. I do not personally believe celibacy causes anything, nor do I believe the incidence of actual celibacy (as in, no masturbation) in the priesthood is very high anyway.

Also agreed. I believe we have been making very similar points, which is why I am asking you kindly to be a bit less adversarial with me, if you would.

294 Sheepdogess  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:44:28pm

OK.
FIne.
It is settled them.
Michael Jackson was a a pedophile and not a homosexual.

I'm glad that is finally settled.

295 Bagua  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:45:32pm

re: #279 Alouette

Alouette, I've posted the fix to Control Center a few times, you don't need macaffee or any other paid service.

296 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:46:17pm

re: #270 WindUpBird

I have this one

297 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:47:18pm

re: #292 Liet_Kynes

1. What are the percentage of celibate vs. non-celibate priests?

2. Good point, but, well, obviously non-married individuals are not actually generally celibate.

3. That's just weird.

4. I do not agree that there is no more societal onus for a Catholic priest who sleeps around than a Catholic layperson.

5. Yes, celibacy is a sexually unusual state of being if you define it to include refraining from masturbation, which the church does. It might be better to say the entire church view of sexuality is wildly divergent from actual human sexuality.

298 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:48:02pm

re: #294 Sheepdogess
Michael Jackson was...???
What?
Something happened to Michael??
What?

299 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:48:21pm

re: #293 Bagua

Also agreed. I believe we have been making very similar points, which is why I am asking you kindly to be a bit less adversarial with me, if you would.

No, I will not stop pointing out when you are saying things that are completely wrong. I will note when you are saying things that are right, as I did.

I'm sorry if it in some way pains you when I point out that the research you are pointing to disclaims itself, warning that the self-reporting is not to be relied upon, but that is not my fault.

300 Bagua  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:48:39pm

re: #294 Sheepdogess

OK.
FIne.
It is settled them.
Michael Jackson was a a pedophile and not a homosexual.

I'm glad that is finally settled.

Part of the problem is we are looking for a box to place all "pedophiles" in. There isn't one. Also, there are many variations, such as fixated or regressed pedophiles, and also many cases in which someone who fits neither diagnosis will nevertheless engage in pedophilliac behaviour due to other psychological problems.

301 b_Snark  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:48:48pm

re: #188 ShaunP

- Catholic church needs to stop arguing and do the right thing
- Hannity was not praising Mcveigh, but is still a douche

Done and done. Any more world problems that we can solve today?

//

I have a light switch that works intermittently.

302 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:49:05pm

re: #292 Liet_Kynes

A true understanding of being a priest requires the man to be strongly masculine in response and as a counter sign to the Church’s femininity.

Uh, what?

303 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:49:44pm

re: #301 b_sharp

Only use the room when it's on!
FTFY

304 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:50:53pm

The Devil made them do it.

... "Them" being the New York Times, that is....

305 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:51:11pm

re: #279 Alouette

Rivka, same name as my daughter

Thank you.

I wish him a speedy and through healing of all his ailments. I'll be off to prayers in a few hours.

And to you I wish a speedy resolution to your computer issues.

May I make a respectful observation? In my university career, I have had quite a few observant students. In general, these kids grow up in sheltered environments where people are as a rule, honest. It is frequently not second nature for them to look for scams the same way as it is for more secular kids.

Just to help prevent future incidents...

I respectfully suggest that you invest in one of the stronger security suites. There are many good ones. I personally use Trend PcCillin. Norton is great as is McCaffee.

It is also vitally important to keep up with updates. This means setting the machine to auto update not just the security suite but also all the other browser updates and patches to the operating system. Microsoft is very full of holes. As people keep finding them, they keep quietly plugging them in patches.

Another suggestion is to use a different web browser than i.e explorer or even firefox these days. The more popular a browser is the more people work on finding ways in. I am currently running chrome.

306 Bagua  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:51:24pm

re: #299 Obdicut

No, I will not stop pointing out when you are saying things that are completely wrong. I will note when you are saying things that are right, as I did.

I'm sorry if it in some way pains you when I point out that the research you are pointing to disclaims itself, warning that the self-reporting is not to be relied upon, but that is not my fault.

Completely wrong? Your typical aggressive bullshit. You have a very limited understanding of this issue, but a very compulsive debating style. Waste of time to engage you. As I say, argue with yourself and I'll go back to gazing at your repetitive nonsense.

307 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:52:02pm

re: #279 Alouette

Rivka, same name as my daughter

The one you want to fix me up with after I give you a blood sample and a copy of my Taxes?

308 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:52:24pm

re: #271 Bagua

Correct. And note what I am saying is that screening out homosexuals from these positions will not reduce the incidence of pedophilia as Donohue alleged falsely. We must screen for pedophilia, not adult sexual behaviours.

Also, we must try to understand the pedophiles psychology, and not look for easy explanations such as celibacy as a causative factor as research disputes this.

What you say is logical, yet it reminds me of the arguments against profiling of young, Muslim, Arab, single, one-way-ticketed, luggageless, males at airports.
If statistics show that homosexual clergy are disproportionately likely to offend, then there is a logical argument to be made - not for excluding them from the clergy, but rather to profile them for further investigation to see if they exhibit other known risk factors, etc.

309 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:54:15pm

re: #295 Bagua

Alouette, I've posted the fix to Control Center a few times, you don't need macaffee or any other paid service.

I already paid for McAfee.

310 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:55:00pm

re: #307 LudwigVanQuixote

The one you want to fix me up with after I give you a blood sample and a copy of my Taxes?

Can you do tech support? She ran to the mall and left me with her infected laptop.

311 Bagua  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:55:06pm

re: #308 Spare O'Lake

What you say is logical, yet it reminds me of the arguments against profiling of young, Muslim, Arab, single, one-way-ticketed, luggageless, males at airports.
If statistics show that homosexual clergy are disproportionately likely to offend, then there is a logical argument to be made - not for excluding them from the clergy, but rather to profile them for further investigation to see if they exhibit other known risk factors, etc.

No, my point is that statistics have shown that homosexual orientation is not a known risk factor, thus profiling them is ineffective.

312 Sheepdogess  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:55:11pm

re: #300 Bagua

Part of the problem is we are looking for a box to place all "pedophiles" in. There isn't one.

Sure there is. It's called a COFFIN.

313 Bagua  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:56:19pm

re: #310 Alouette

Can you do tech support? She ran to the mall and left me with her infected laptop.

Yes I know, but it is not fixing your problem. The free steps I outlined will fix your problem. I have dealt with this same problem in several variants.

314 b_Snark  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:56:29pm

re: #213 Obdicut

That is a self-contradictory sentence. If it is one of the only factors known, you cannot definitively say that it is a key factor.

Huh?

You assume there may be many more factors, some of which will be more 'key'. That is unlikely, and in science, definitively does not mean 100% certainty.

We operate with what we know, not with what we hope we know in the future.

315 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:56:36pm

re: #306 Bagua

Again:

One of the papers cited for their research in the argument you're making disavow their own results with the caveat that self-reporting from pedophiles is a problematic source of data.

You have not addressed that problem with your argument in the least. Reminding you of that is not 'compulsive', nor is it 'aggressive'. It's pointing out a massive, glaring flaw in your argument. You are depending on the testimony of pedophiles about whether they were themselves abused-- which is obviously something they might be claiming in order to justify their own actions. That is highly, highly problematic.

You haven't addressed any of the other problems with your argument I listed, either.

Just calling me a bad person and a meanie does not strengthen your argument one whit.

316 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:58:09pm

re: #305 LudwigVanQuixote

Thank you.

I wish him a speedy and through healing of all his ailments. I'll be off to prayers in a few hours.

And to you I wish a speedy resolution to your computer issues.

May I make a respectful observation? In my university career, I have had quite a few observant students. In general, these kids grow up in sheltered environments where people are as a rule, honest. It is frequently not second nature for them to look for scams the same way as it is for more secular kids.

Just to help prevent future incidents...

I respectfully suggest that you invest in one of the stronger security suites. There are many good ones. I personally use Trend PcCillin. Norton is great as is McCaffee.

It is also vitally important to keep up with updates. This means setting the machine to auto update not just the security suite but also all the other browser updates and patches to the operating system. Microsoft is very full of holes. As people keep finding them, they keep quietly plugging them in patches.

Another suggestion is to use a different web browser than i.e explorer or even firefox these days. The more popular a browser is the more people work on finding ways in. I am currently running chrome.

Or, Rivka could just clean up the current infection on her PC and get a Mac. All the best people have them, setting them up is a whiz, and transferring all your important docs over from your deadly scam-magnet PC is too.

317 Bagua  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:58:36pm

re: #312 Sheepdogess

Sure there is. It's called a COFFIN.

LOL, you have a point there!

The problem is detecting them in advance, which is highly problematic and clouded with red herrings such as celibacy and homosexuality which are not useful in making this detection.

The additional problem is how we deal with the know cases, the Church appears to have covered-up and enabled the known offenders.

318 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:59:30pm

re: #304 The Sanity Inspector

The comments on that are golden. Somehow the whole pedophile thing is the work of George Soros in concert with the Obama administration because Soros owns the media and Obama convinced catholics to support him.

319 Bagua  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:59:43pm

re: #315 Obdicut

Gaze.

320 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:59:43pm

re: #309 Alouette

I already paid for McAfee.

That is a good suite.

re: #310 Alouette

Can you do tech support? She ran to the mall and left me with her infected laptop.

I can try.

Are you having problems with McCaffe or with windows at the moment?

I am not as familiar with McCaffee as PcCillin or Norton, but I can give it a go. Also there are a whole bunch of lizardim here who are really good this.

321 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 1:59:51pm

re: #314 b_sharp

No, what I mean is:

If you 'know' that 40% of pedophiles were sexually abused as children, that does not in any way indicate that that abuse lead to their pedophilia. It is a correlation, not a causation. There might be other co-founding factors in that childhood that contained abuse-- like physical abuse, neglect, or an actual genetic tendency, since the abusers so often tend to be family members.

Unless you know which other factors also occur in the same environment as the abuse-- if the pedophiles are to be believed and the abuse actually did occur-- you cannot begin to say which are the key factors.

It's one of the things that makes any definitive statement about behavior nearly impossible.

322 Liet_Kynes  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:01:57pm

re: #111 SanFranciscoZionist

By and large this is the case. For example, the specific nation’s laws regarding how old is enough for a person to marry supersede the canonical laws regarding the minimum age if they are higher than the Church's minimum.

The Church will hand individuals over to the state, often canon law requires this, for prosecution and punishment. This includes priests.

The Church though reserves the right to prosecute specific charges against clerics because this is the only means to prevent the state from interfering within the structure of the church. Simony and clerical investiture are HUGE problems. Only here in the West where there is a separation of Church and State do we forget why the Church holds its own courts. Let us not return to a time when politicians were Bishops.

323 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:03:30pm

re: #316 Cato the Elder

Or, Rivka could just clean up the current infection on her PC and get a Mac. All the best people have them, setting them up is a whiz, and transferring all your important docs over from your deadly scam-magnet PC is too.

I love Macs. However, she is not going to drop a k+ on a new laptop right now.

324 pingjockey  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:05:08pm

Gaaah! Beck(Napolitano) has Rand Paul on right now!

325 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:05:24pm

re: #257 ShaunP

My problem is that every time I've switched a computer from Norton to another brand, the new program finds HUNDREDS of threats. I know that none are foolproof, but damn...

I only use Panda, I have done so for many years, no problems, no excessive warnings, no picking out normal programs as possible threats during a scan. They update almost every day of the year so your constantly protected against the latest threats. It is not bloatware like Norton that slows your entire system down and is constantly popping up warnings against something or the other you are trying to do.

Other than the occasional little pop-up in the bottom right corner of the screen saying it just finished an update you hardly ever know it is there. So far (knock on wood) after four years of pretty much daily getting movie or TV torrents and constantly being exposed to peer-to-peer attacks I have yet to get infected with anything.

326 Sheepdogess  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:05:37pm

re: #317 Bagua

The public education system also covers up their sexual predators. It's not limited to the only the Catholic Church.

And let's not forget this case that the MSM deemed "too hot to handle". Feckless, depraved, scum, the MSM.

ttp[Link: findarticles.com...]

Thank God they are going to get their boxes.

327 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:06:06pm

re: #311 Bagua

No, my point is that statistics have shown that homosexual orientation is not a known risk factor, thus profiling them is ineffective.

Once again, I'll chime in here and say that the issue is not how to keep sexual predators out of the priesthood, although some steps have been taken with screening at seminaries.

The issue is creating a culture of zero tolerance, legal cooperation, and compassion for victims in the Church that matches the one we have been creating in secular society for the past several decades.

328 Egregious Philbin  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:06:38pm

Self important prats like Donohue are why I am no longer part of the RC. I had paedophile priests in my parish and grade school and high school, and the Bishop knew it and covered it up.

The church is dead to me.

BTW, great book to read "Losing my Religion" by William Lobdel, an evangelical Catholic LA Times reporter who covered the abuses and is now not religious at all...he saw too much to even pretend to believe.

329 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:07:35pm

re: #313 Bagua

Yes I know, but it is not fixing your problem. The free steps I outlined will fix your problem. I have dealt with this same problem in several variants.

It's all fixed now (finally!), and my daughter is cooking dinner for everybody.

330 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:08:02pm

re: #329 Alouette

It's all fixed now (finally!), and my daughter is cooking dinner for everybody.

What is she cooking?

331 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:08:28pm

re: #323 LudwigVanQuixote

I love Macs. However, she is not going to drop a k+ on a new laptop right now.

I love Macs so much, if I were Oprah I would give them away to everyone who came to a live audience taping of the Cato Show.

Unfortunately, I'm not rich and there is no Cato Show, so I have to confine myself to recommendations.

332 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:09:21pm

re: #330 LudwigVanQuixote

What is she cooking?

Shepherd's pie (ground meat and mashed potato casserole)

333 Gus  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:10:07pm

re: #324 pingjockey

Gaaah! Beck(Napolitano) has Rand Paul on right now!

Rand Paul. What a dunce. Here's the latest:

Really libertarian. In an interview in the upcoming Sunday New York Times magazine, Paul says that he doesn't believe that automobile passengers should be required to wear seat belts:

But in light of your distrust of the federal government, where are you on an issue like seat belts? Federal legislation requiring people to wear seat belts could obviously save lives.

I think the federal government shouldn't be involved. I don't want to live in a nanny state where people are telling me where I can go and what I can do.

Actually, the NYT's Deborah Solomon is mistaken -- federal law since 1968 has required all vehicles except for buses to be equipped with seat belts. But legislation requiring vehicle occupants to wear seat belts is left to the states. It's not clear if Paul supports state laws regarding seat belt usage although he seems pretty emphatic about not being told what to do by any governmental authority.

As this excerpt indicates seat belt usage is up to the states. I find it odd that a so called physician (opthamologist) would be advocating against seat belt laws.

334 pingjockey  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:10:30pm

re: #332 Alouette
Yum. My wife is from Wales and that is a favorite here!

335 pingjockey  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:11:42pm

re: #333 Gus 802
Well, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

336 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:11:54pm

re: #311 Bagua

No, my point is that statistics have shown that homosexual orientation is not a known risk factor, thus profiling them is ineffective.

Sorry, but I haven't seen those statistics - link please?
Also, isn't there an additional elephant in the room...does the Catholic Church not have a policy against ordination of homosexual priests? If so, then how on earth would one expect priests to answer a survey or questionnaire honestly without fearing for their status?

337 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:12:30pm

re: #332 Alouette

Shepherd's pie (ground meat and mashed potato casserole)

Yum. That is a hard one not to like and a good choice for Pesach.

338 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:14:14pm

re: #333 Gus 802

As this excerpt indicates seat belt usage is up to the states. I find it odd that a so called physician (opthamologist) would be advocating against seat belt laws.

Evil seatbelts! Next thing you know that evil nanny state guvmint will be telling me that I can't have a few shots of vodka and then drive too!

339 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:15:06pm

re: #337 LudwigVanQuixote

Yum. That is a hard one not to like and a good choice for Pesach.

Hey, Kosher question:

If I'm cooking a beef dish for my friends, can I use dairy with it if the dairy is from goats or sheep? I've gotten different answers for this when I looked it up.

340 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:15:07pm

re: #327 SanFranciscoZionist

Once again, I'll chime in here and say that the issue is not how to keep sexual predators out of the priesthood, although some steps have been taken with screening at seminaries.

The issue is creating a culture of zero tolerance, legal cooperation, and compassion for victims in the Church that matches the one we have been creating in secular society for the past several decades.

Omein, Amen, Amayn.

I know people who were abused by teachers in public and private schools back in the day when such things were routinely hushed up as a matter of course. Some of them have come forward years later and told their sad stories.

Unfortunately, the way our legal system often works even today is: a victim comes forward, the matter immediately goes to arbitration instead of a trial, some money changes hands, and in exchange the perp gets a confidentiality agreement and sealed records that virtually wipe the incident off the map. Victims are admonished that they cannot talk about the events on pain of prosecution "from now until the end of the world" (actual legal language). The dust settles, the perp replenishes his/her depleted bank account, and the victim is silenced all over again.

This is a huge problem for victims.

341 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:16:50pm

re: #337 LudwigVanQuixote

Yum. That is a hard one not to like and a good choice for Pesach.

I hope you're having a good Pesach, my friend. My Holy Week has been a bit spoiled by all this crap talk from self-proclaimed Catholic leaders who should know better.

342 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:16:52pm

re: #336 Spare O'Lake

Sorry, but I haven't seen those statistics - link please?
Also, isn't there an additional elephant in the room...does the Catholic Church not have a policy against ordination of homosexual priests? If so, then how on earth would one expect priests to answer a survey or questionnaire honestly without fearing for their status?

No, there's no policy against the ordination of gay priests that I'm aware of.

343 Gus  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:17:22pm

re: #338 LudwigVanQuixote

Evil seatbelts! Next thing you know that evil nanny state guvmint will be telling me that I can't have a few shots of vodka and then drive too!

Right. Let's start an airline where the pilots don't wear safety belts and get drunk before the flight. After all, we don't want "a nanny state where people are telling me where I can go and what I can do."

His father would say that after a few crashes on that airline the market would respond and that airline would simply go out of business. No need to regulate it and all that jazz.

344 Mr Secul  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:17:47pm

re: #133 SanFranciscoZionist

There have been enough children molested by married men with children that I would not consider that a reasonable standard.

I watched a TV program about pedophilia maybe 20 years ago. Several pedophiles were interviewed and they explained why they did what they did.

Some married pedophiles were asked why they got married to adult women and why they had sex with their own children.

Their replies were chilling. Disturbingly rational (in a calculating sense). The scary part was that you could see the sense in what they said (but you may want a mind scrub if you read on).

They said that it was all about power and control. Access and control. They said that it was difficult to get access to other peoples' children and that they needed control over the children to prevent them telling other what had been done to them.

To them the obvious solution was to have children of their own. They could put up with having sex with an adult woman in order to get easy access to children that they could control.

Some couldn't be bothered starting a family of their own and waiting until the children were old enough to be sexually interesting to them. So they would target single mothers, ones that were vulnerable, who may ignore warning signs and not think that the unthinkable was happing to their children.

These priests don't even have to 'put up' with sexual relations with an adult woman. They don't have to invest their money into the partner or the children. They don't have to invest time in building a relationship. They don't need to worry about their targets growing too old because they can switch to a new crop each year. They have access and control without any of the draw backs. They are protected by the institution for which they work. It is an ideal situation and opportunity for a pedophile.

All institutions that have access to and control over children suffer this problem. The Church exacerbates the problem by protecting the culprits and covering up the problem. The church is morally wrong to do this. I'd add 'duh' but it seems as if staff in the Church don't see this as obvious.

The issue is not that there are sexual predators in the priesthood. The issue is that the Church sheltered them and favored them over their victims.

Spot on.

345 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:17:53pm

re: #337 LudwigVanQuixote

Yum. That is a hard one not to like and a good choice for Pesach.

At the second-night seder, someone was telling me about a rabbi who argues that potatoes should also be considered kitniyot.

I consider such a person to have removed himself from the World To Come, or at least put himself in danger of grievous bodily harm if I come in contact with him.

//

346 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:18:09pm

re: #339 Obdicut

Hey, Kosher question:

If I'm cooking a beef dish for my friends, can I use dairy with it if the dairy is from goats or sheep? I've gotten different answers for this when I looked it up.

No.

347 Silvergirl  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:18:52pm

#38 (in spite of having five updings) should probably be deleted since it quotes #4 which has been deleted.

348 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:19:45pm

re: #346 SanFranciscoZionist

Okay, then. Thanks kindly.

It's always so awkward being a barely-Jewish Jew.

349 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:21:59pm

re: #348 Obdicut

Okay, then. Thanks kindly.

It's always so awkward being a barely-Jewish Jew.

Dairy is dairy, I'm afraid. You might want to replace it with kosher tofu.

350 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:22:29pm

re: #348 Obdicut

Also awkward being a slightly jewish gentile.

Oy.

351 Liet_Kynes  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:23:53pm

re: #209 Obdicut

Well-put, and you obviously have a more present understanding of church politics than I.

Do you see any danger of schism from the church in the developing world, then? That's something I've wondered about.

Thanks!

Depends on which developing world you are talking about. China is a problem as there is already a schism there between the Official Catholic Church (Government Backed) and the Underground Church (loyal to the Universal Church). It is largely the whole investiture problem cropping up again. The Vatican is rather much interested in merging the two groups back together and China sometimes is interested sometimes not. Though, FYI if anyone goes to China and you are from the West, go to the Official Catholic Church, no hunting around for the Underground Church while on vacation please.

Africa and India are rather solid – very important and well respected bishops from both. Latin America is relatively solid – had the problem with Marxist liberation theology but that, as far as I can tell, never was a drive towards schism, just heresy.

352 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:25:50pm

...

353 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:25:51pm

re: #349 Cato the Elder

I can just skip it-- it was actually for shepherds pie, as wondering whether the traditional cheese topping was acceptable. That's what popped it into my head. I always forget to ask. Now I know.

When cooking for those who keep Kosher, I generally stick to absolutely menus-- of course, if I'm cooking at all in my own kitchen, it's not kosher to many, anyway.

354 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:26:35pm

re: #349 Cato the Elder

Dairy is dairy, I'm afraid. You might want to replace it with kosher tofu.

Also, I have found soy 'cream cheese' to be an excellent base for kosher 'cream' sauces in meat dishes.

355 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:27:19pm

re: #348 Obdicut

Okay, then. Thanks kindly.

It's always so awkward being a barely-Jewish Jew.

Not to worry. There's a reason there's centuries of people asking questions and getting answers on this stuff.

356 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:27:55pm

re: #354 SanFranciscoZionist

Also, I have found soy 'cream cheese' to be an excellent base for kosher 'cream' sauces in meat dishes.

Soy vay iz mere!

357 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:32:40pm

re: #342 SanFranciscoZionist

No, there's no policy against the ordination of gay priests that I'm aware of.

The Roman Catholic Church allows the ordination of men who have, in the past, experienced same sex attraction, but only on the condition that they have lived without engaging in homosexual culture or acts for several years, and can be psychologically verified as having their same-sex attraction under control.[11] Previously ordination of these homosexually inclined males was strictly forbidden, even though this discipline was often not observed by local bishops after the 1960s.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

358 Bagua  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:34:19pm

re: #326 Sheepdogess

The public education system also covers up their sexual predators. It's not limited to the only the Catholic Church.

And let's not forget this case that the MSM deemed "too hot to handle". Feckless, depraved, scum, the MSM.

ttp[Link: findarticles.com...]

Thank God they are going to get their boxes.

I agree, this phenomena is by no means an exclusive of the Catholic Church nor are they the only organisation that has covered-up or enabled abusers once they were discovered.

359 b_Snark  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:34:47pm

re: #257 ShaunP

My problem is that every time I've switched a computer from Norton to another brand, the new program finds HUNDREDS of threats. I know that none are foolproof, but damn...

Are you sure that program is not reporting files found in Norton's quarantine file?

360 b_Snark  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:36:51pm

re: #273 WindUpBird

Go get yourself Microsoft Security Essentials, it's all you need for virus protection. My hyper-geek haX0R friends (well, the ones with Windows boxes) are using it now, they've ditched their other virus software.

I have too. I maintain several hundred systems that will all be going to MSE. Others will go to Linux.

361 b_Snark  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:38:17pm

re: #276 Alouette

Thank you for your prayers for my dad.

I'm still having the problem with Mcafee, now they claim my daughter has no subscription even though she paid for it last night.

I have been on the phone for over 2 and a half fucking hours. I am a freaking wreck.

Can you get on the Internet?

If so, one of us can connect to your system and wrangle with the problem.

362 Liet_Kynes  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:40:35pm

re: #256 iceweasel

But even so, the real problem here is and has always been the Catholic Church's attitude toward sexuality in general and female sexuality in particular. It's a culture of shame. Women and sexual desire are treated as lesser and other, consequently some of the men steeped in that culture (like priests) act as they do.

Well I am afraid to say that what you understand as “Catholic sexual theology” is not in fact Catholic sexual theology. Might I suggest a catechism?


III. THE LOVE OF HUSBAND AND WIFE

2360 Sexuality is ordered to the conjugal love of man and woman. In marriage the physical intimacy of the spouses becomes a sign and pledge of spiritual communion. Marriage bonds between baptized persons are sanctified by the sacrament.

2361 "Sexuality, by means of which man and woman give themselves to one another through the acts which are proper and exclusive to spouses, is not something simply biological, but concerns the innermost being of the human person as such. It is realized in a truly human way only if it is an integral part of the love by which a man and woman commit themselves totally to one another until death."

2362 "The acts in marriage by which the intimate and chaste union of the spouses takes place are noble and honorable; the truly human performance of these acts fosters the self-giving they signify and enriches the spouses in joy and gratitude." Sexuality is a source of joy and pleasure:

2363 The spouses' union achieves the twofold end of marriage: the good of the spouses themselves and the transmission of life. These two meanings or values of marriage cannot be separated without altering the couple's spiritual life and compromising the goods of marriage and the future of the family.

Clearly what you suggest isn’t true. It also makes no sense to accuse the Catholic Church of being anti-women when

1. Mary the Mother of God is viewed as mankind’s singular solitary boast.
2. The Church is female.
3. The Church is described as the Bride of Christ and the Mother of all Believers.

363 cliffster  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:42:10pm

re: #361 b_sharp

Can you get on the Internet?

If so, one of us can connect to your system and wrangle with the problem.

Isn't that like calling someone and asking them, "is your phone working"?

364 Bagua  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:45:27pm

re: #327 SanFranciscoZionist

Once again, I'll chime in here and say that the issue is not how to keep sexual predators out of the priesthood, although some steps have been taken with screening at seminaries.

The issue is creating a culture of zero tolerance, legal cooperation, and compassion for victims in the Church that matches the one we have been creating in secular society for the past several decades.

Yes, agree strongly. We really do not know how to properly screen for abusers, those who have not yet been discovered and do not admit openly their fixation on children, in this case boys. But we do know how to stop them from re-offending by removing their access to their preferred victims and/or incarceration. This requires the full cooperation of institutions such as the Church and BOA, and schools. The goal is to prevent additional victims and patterns of abuse.

Eliminating the first discovered case is far more problematic, we know what doesn't work - focus on celibacy or homosexuality - but there are methods which show promise, such as not allowing adults to be alone with children in situations such as the church and scouts. Unfortunately, these also restrict the non-offenders from doing their work, so there is no easy answer.

But one thing is sure, the Church has not yet taken the correct steps to deal with their part in this, whereas many other organizations have taken steps to do the right thing, based upon our current understanding.

365 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:50:19pm

re: #362 Liet_Kynes

You have a pretty damn rosy-eyed view of Catholic attitudes towards sexuality.

Any religion that considers masturbation anything other than perfectly normal is pretty screwed up on religion.

366 b_Snark  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:50:22pm

re: #321 Obdicut

No, what I mean is:

If you 'know' that 40% of pedophiles were sexually abused as children, that does not in any way indicate that that abuse lead to their pedophilia. It is a correlation, not a causation. There might be other co-founding factors in that childhood that contained abuse-- like physical abuse, neglect, or an actual genetic tendency, since the abusers so often tend to be family members.

Unless you know which other factors also occur in the same environment as the abuse-- if the pedophiles are to be believed and the abuse actually did occur-- you cannot begin to say which are the key factors.

It's one of the things that makes any definitive statement about behavior nearly impossible.

Well Hell!

There go all my Psych classes, my Stats classes and my Experimental Design classes.

Damn.

Oh well, I wasn't using them anyway.

The study of behaviour, in one sense, is a forensic science. Abuse leaves 'marks' on the personality that can be tested for and analyzed. It isn't as hopeless as you suspect.

367 b_Snark  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:51:40pm

re: #323 LudwigVanQuixote

I love Macs. However, she is not going to drop a k+ on a new laptop right now.

A better option, depending on the hardware, is to wipe out Win and go Linux. Ubuntu is a great distro.

368 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:52:41pm

re: #350 wozzablog

Also awkward being a slightly jewish gentile.

Oy.

My step-brother is a Jewpanese Christian, and seems to handle that strange multi-class with style.

369 Silvergirl  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:53:23pm

re: #20 iceweasel

Totally missed this one earlier as I read through the thread.

This is a reference to a famous and hilarious Onion piece, people.

The comment by Frank was more than poor taste. To compare it to the Onion bit is a whitewash. Choir boys are not adults, and there's a lot of distance between an Onion bit that's about and for adults and an unfunny comment about pedophilia. Making light of it is putting yourself in the category of Donohue, and using humor doesn't make it right.

370 Bagua  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:53:30pm

re: #336 Spare O'Lake

Sorry, but I haven't seen those statistics - link please?
Also, isn't there an additional elephant in the room...does the Catholic Church not have a policy against ordination of homosexual priests? If so, then how on earth would one expect priests to answer a survey or questionnaire honestly without fearing for their status?

More than happy to provide that my friend. This is one of the most prevalent myths because is sounds likely.

Here are a couple of quotes:

The first from Groth and Birnbaum (1978)


Using the fixated-regressed distinction, Groth and Birnbaum (1978) studied 175 adult males who were convicted in Massachusetts of sexual assault against a child. None of the men had an exclusively homosexual adult sexual orientation. 83 (47%) were classified as "fixated;" 70 others (40%) were classified as regressed adult heterosexuals; the remaining 22 (13%) were classified as regressed adult bisexuals. Of the last group, Groth and Birnbaum observed that "in their adult relationships they engaged in sex on occasion with men as well as with women. However, in no case did this attraction to men exceed their preference for women....There were no men who were primarily sexually attracted to other adult males..." (p.180).


That study showed zero % homosexual males.

Other researchers have taken different approaches, but have similarly failed to find a connection between homosexuality and child molestation. Dr. Carole Jenny and her colleagues reviewed 352 medical charts, representing all of the sexually abused children seen in the emergency room or child abuse clinic of a Denver children's hospital during a one-year period (from July 1, 1991 to June 30, 1992). The molester was a gay or lesbian adult in fewer than 1% in which an adult molester could be identified – only 2 of the 269 cases (Jenny et al., 1994).

1% is almost insignificant statistically.

Here is another that looked solely at attraction:

In yet another approach to studying adult sexual attraction to children, some Canadian researchers observed how homosexual and heterosexual adult men responded to slides of males and females of various ages (child, pubescent, and mature adult). All of the research subjects were first screened to ensure that they preferred physically mature sexual partners. In some of the slides shown to subjects, the model was clothed; in others, he or she was nude. The slides were accompanied by audio recordings. The recordings paired with the nude models described an imaginary sexual interaction between the model and the subject. The recordings paired with the pictures of clothed models described the model engaging in neutral activities (e.g., swimming). To measure sexual arousal, changes in the subjects' penis volume were monitored while they watched the slides and listened to the audiotapes. The researchers found that homosexual males responded no more to male children than heterosexual males responded to female children (Freund et al., 1989).

371 b_Snark  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:53:41pm

re: #336 Spare O'Lake

Sorry, but I haven't seen those statistics - link please?
Also, isn't there an additional elephant in the room...does the Catholic Church not have a policy against ordination of homosexual priests? If so, then how on earth would one expect priests to answer a survey or questionnaire honestly without fearing for their status?

First Muslims, now gays. What's with the hard-on?

372 Bagua  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:54:54pm

Another:

Are homosexual adults in general sexually attracted to children and are preadolescent children at greater risk of molestation from homosexual adults than from heterosexual adults? There is no reason to believe so. The research to date all points to there being no significant relationship between a homosexual lifestyle and child molestation. There appears to be practically no reportage of sexual molestation of girls by lesbian adults, and the adult male who sexually molests young boys is not likely to be homosexual (Groth & Gary, 1982, p. 147).

Another:

In a more recent literature review, Dr. Nathaniel McConaghy (1998) similarly cautioned against confusing homosexuality with pedophilia. He noted, "The man who offends against prepubertal or immediately postpubertal boys is typically not sexually interested in older men or in women"

373 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:56:05pm

re: #366 b_sharp

I didn't mean to portray it as hopeless. However, it is highly complicated, and definitive statements on behavior that has any complexity to it are rarely going to be provably accurate.

Abuse does not leave the same marks on everyone, which is part of the problem. Reporting coming from conscious individuals is a problem, too-- it all takes the form of narrative, and you can't access it in any double-blind or even blind fashion and interpret it meaningfully.

This book would probably be interesting to you:

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

374 b_Snark  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:57:23pm

re: #363 cliffster

Isn't that like calling someone and asking them, "is your phone working"?

Sometimes yes. Not all malware stops access tho, so some help can be provided. I've done it. Sometimes successfully.

375 Bagua  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:57:45pm
Conclusion

The empirical research does not show that gay or bisexual men are any more likely than heterosexual men to molest children. This is not to argue that homosexual and bisexual men never molest children. But there is no scientific basis for asserting that they are more likely than heterosexual men to do so. And, as explained above, many child molesters cannot be characterized as having an adult sexual orientation at all; they are fixated on children.

The literature simply directly contradicts the view that homosexuals, male or female, are more likely to engage in pedophilia. In fact, they may indeed suggest the opposite; Homosexuals are less likely to engage in pedophilia.

376 cliffster  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 2:58:55pm

re: #374 b_sharp

Sometimes yes. Not all malware stops access tho, so some help can be provided. I've done it. Sometimes successfully.

Well, I'm saying - she's posting at LGF, so presumably she'd have internet access. Unless LGF is on said malware's white list...

377 Bagua  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 3:00:53pm

re: #264 Taqyia2Me

Except for all pedophelia, by definition, is rape.

Wrong, there are many expressions of pedophilia, such as pornography, that may in fact involve no physical contact at all. Also, one can be a "non-practicing" pedophile.

378 b_Snark  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 3:01:22pm

re: #376 cliffster

Well, I'm saying - she's posting at LGF, so presumably she'd have internet access. Unless LGF is on said malware's white list...

D'oh!

You're right, and I missed it.

I assumed more than one system is available.

379 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 3:01:24pm

re: #370 Bagua

Thanks. If those stats are accurate, then it is truly amazing how wrong the stereotype is. Just wow.

380 b_Snark  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 3:01:44pm

Damn, I hear my wife calling.

381 Bagua  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 3:02:26pm

re: #257 ShaunP

My problem is that every time I've switched a computer from Norton to another brand, the new program finds HUNDREDS of threats. I know that none are foolproof, but damn...

That is because the other programs are looking at things such as cookies, and adware that are not technically viruses. But it is not unusual for a few real viruses to slip by some programs, but not hundreds when one of them is Norton.

382 Bagua  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 3:04:23pm

re: #379 Spare O'Lake

Thanks. If those stats are accurate, then it is truly amazing how wrong the stereotype is. Just wow.

Right, and no one should be condemned for falling victim to the stereotype, after all, even many of the researchers were surprised by the finding and were expecting to find a link. It is some-what counter intuitive for a heterosexual person to understand this.

383 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 3:04:33pm

re: #371 b_sharp

First Muslims, now gays. What's with the hard-on?

The only hard-on around here seems to be the one that some folks have for un-PC questions and observations.

384 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 3:07:33pm

re: #382 Bagua

Right, and no one should be condemned for falling victim to the stereotype, after all, even many of the researchers were surprised by the finding and were expecting to find a link. It is some-what counter intuitive for a heterosexual person to understand this.

One last point...how is it that the Church itself has not debunked the stereotype?

385 Liet_Kynes  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 3:14:01pm

re: #297 Obdicut

1. What are the percentage of celibate vs. non-celibate priests?
2. Good point, but, well, obviously non-married individuals are not actually generally celibate.
3. That's just weird.
4. I do not agree that there is no more societal onus for a Catholic priest who sleeps around than a Catholic layperson.
5. Yes, celibacy is a sexually unusual state of being if you define it to include refraining from masturbation, which the church does. It might be better to say the entire church view of sexuality is wildly divergent from actual human sexuality.

1. I don’t have direct statistics but it would be over 90 % of Roman Rite Catholic Priests are unmarried and thus celibate and it would be over 90% of Eastern Rite Catholic Priest are married and thus non-celibate.

2. I beg to differ especially if we limit the population to non-married Catholic lay persons who have been properly catechized. Even if we open up the population to include a general Christian and generally poorly catechized most people spend most of their lives celibate.

3. It is only weird if you think of being a priest as having to give up your gender.

4. I find that the social onus for a non-married lay person to be celibate has grown way too lax. This has dragged down the social onus on priests to be celibate. Those sinning priests need their feet held to the fire, but that fire can be hotter and quick if we are also holding the laity’s feet to the fire.

5. The Church’s view of human sexuality is dependent upon her view of how God relates to mankind, it is not predicated upon “observable behavior of the majority”. It is also not logical to assume that the presence of a behavior amongst a majority of a population guarantees that that behavior is moral as morality is dependent upon what is true not what is popular.

386 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 3:20:13pm

re: #385 Liet_Kynes

2. I beg to differ especially if we limit the population to non-married Catholic lay persons who have been properly catechized. Even if we open up the population to include a general Christian and generally poorly catechized most people spend most of their lives celibate.

If you include masturbation as a violation of celibacy, no they don't. At all.

3. It is only weird if you think of being a priest as having to give up your gender.

Um, you were the one bringing up gender stuff, man. The whole gender trip is just weird in and of itself.

4. I find that the social onus for a non-married lay person to be celibate has grown way too lax. This has dragged down the social onus on priests to be celibate. Those sinning priests need their feet held to the fire, but that fire can be hotter and quick if we are also holding the laity’s feet to the fire.

Yeah. More sexual repression. That's the ticket. That's the way to revitalize the church. Really bear down on the shame for kids, that's great for them.

5. The Church’s view of human sexuality is dependent upon her view of how God relates to mankind, it is not predicated upon “observable behavior of the majority”. It is also not logical to assume that the presence of a behavior amongst a majority of a population guarantees that that behavior is moral as morality is dependent upon what is true not what is popular.

I didn't say anything about morality, though. The church's view on human sexuality-- that masturbation is damaging, for example-- is simply incorrect. Masturbation is in no way, at all, in the least, associated with any negative effects.

The church does, yes, base its view of sexuality off of theology, and not of actual human sexuality. This is why its view of human sexuality is massively screwed up. The church has an inhuman view of sexuality.

387 Liet_Kynes  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 3:31:23pm

re: #302 iceweasel

Uh, what?

Exactly why we are in the mess that we are in.

Try these articles.

Priesthood and the Masculinity of Christ
[Link: www.catholicculture.org...]

Priestly Identity: Crisis and Renewal (Part 1)
[Link: www.zenit.org...]

Sex in the City of God: Why God Made Sex and Marriage
[Link: ratzingerfanclub.com...]

388 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 3:33:06pm

re: #387 Liet_Kynes

Oh lord. You're one of those people who agrees with that strange MP who argued with Hitchens and Fry, aren't you, that the gender of Jesus really, really mattered?

389 Liet_Kynes  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 4:05:12pm

re: #342 SanFranciscoZionist

No, there's no policy against the ordination of gay priests that I'm aware of.

There is. Often ignored though.

Religiosorum institutio 1961
[Link: www.adoremus.org...]

CDF Instruction 2005
[Link: www.catholicculture.org...]

390 Liet_Kynes  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 4:27:15pm

re: #365 Obdicut

You have a pretty damn rosy-eyed view of Catholic attitudes towards sexuality.

Not really. I understand what the teaching is, where people are in their lives in reguards to what is being taught, and understand how to move from what is to what should be, if they wish to move along that path.

391 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 4:28:38pm

re: #390 Liet_Kynes

From what you've posted, your bias is rather obvious. If you would rather appear impartial, then posting things from the Ratzinger Fan Club is probably not the wisest course of action.

You have also dodged the whole 'masturbation' issue vis-a-vis celibacy at every turn.

392 Eclectic Infidel  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 4:32:57pm

re: #3 Bagua

Re-post from prior thread:

Technically he is correct in that the medical definition for pedophilia involves perversion involving an adult and pre-pubescent children. Many of the priest cases are technically Hebephilia, which is the attraction to early pubescent children or Ephebophilia which is the preference for the 15-19 year old range. Though these terms are also used interchangeably.

Yet neither Hebephilia nor Ephebophilia is in common usage by law enforcement which defines a minor child by chronological age, not sexual maturity. This definition relies on the age of consent, which varies from state to state and nation to nation.

Regardless, a semantic argument such as this is a diversionary tactic, and also a slander to normal homosexuals who are not perverts nor criminals. It is universally understood that the "pedophile" priests are not normal homosexuals, almost all exhibit a form of Chronophilia that violates social and civil codes.

Thank you for this post. It just boggles my mind that Donohue would even have the nerve to say this in public.

393 Liet_Kynes  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 4:37:23pm

re: #388 Obdicut

Oh lord. You're one of those people who agrees with that strange MP who argued with Hitchens and Fry, aren't you, that the gender of Jesus really, really mattered?

If it didn’t matter, then I would be amongst the first to argue that Christianity (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant) is a bunch of platitudes that is ultimately devoid of any real meaning.

It mattered that Christ was a man. It mattered that Christ was a Jew. It matters who Christ was. If it didn’t matter who He was and everything was just random happenstance devoice of meaning, then what He taught and did is also equally as happenstance and devoid of meaning. WHY? Because Christ came to give us Himself and not a book of laws.

394 ryannon  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 4:46:44pm

re: #213 Obdicut

That is a self-contradictory sentence. If it is one of the only factors known, you cannot definitively say that it is a key factor.

Since we're playing with the meaning of words, allow me to add that if it's the only factor known that gets you through the door of explaining a phenomenon, it qualifies as a 'key factor' by definition - even as it posits the existence of other factors, known or unknown.

395 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 4:47:09pm

re: #393 Liet_Kynes

Right. Your view of sexuality is colored entirely through the lenses of faith, and does not bear resemblance to actual human sexuality.

Christ himself made very, very little issue of the fact that he was male, so it's always been amusing to me to see people attempt to cram gender differences onto him.

Finally, I note that you yet again dodged an opportunity to confront the obvious problem that masturbation poses for your contention that celibacy is the norm.

396 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 4:47:52pm

re: #394 ryannon

But it may not actually be a factor at all. It may appear to be one, but actually just be something that often occurs in concert with a true cause; it be an effect, not a cause.

397 Lidane  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 4:56:39pm

1. Bil Donohue has always been an asshole. This is only further proof of his complete and total inability to ever criticize the Catholic Church for anything. There is NO defense, no semantic argument, and no justification for what he says here. Period.

2. If I hadn't already walked away from the Catholic Church back when I was 18 for their biases against women (and yes, they are biased) and because I really just didn't believe in what they were selling anymore, this scandal would certainly make me leave.

3. These pronouncements by people like Donohue and that Vatican exorcist are flat out evil and morally depraved. The Church isn't the victim here. It's the enabler, covering up all these abuses and then shifting blame to the victims or to anyone who dares to criticize them for their inaction and arrogance. And the paedophilia/homosexuality argument is breathtakingly asinine. Donohue needs to STFU. If that's his best defense of the Church, then it's no defense at all.

398 ryannon  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 5:10:49pm

re: #396 Obdicut

But it may not actually be a factor at all. It may appear to be one, but actually just be something that often occurs in concert with a true cause; it be an effect, not a cause.

Yes, I saw that later, after I posted the above, and found it to be true.

399 Girl with a Pearl Earring  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 6:24:02pm

A bit of perspective:

[Link: www.americanthinker.com...]

400 Lidane  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 6:31:56pm

re: #399 Girl with a Pearl Earring

A bit of perspective:

[Link: www.americanthinker.com...]

If by "perspective" you mean a bunch of deflection and drivel, then yes.

That article is a complete waste of time.

401 Bagua  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 6:40:20pm

re: #329 Alouette

It's all fixed now (finally!), and my daughter is cooking dinner for everybody.

Oh, wonderful news!

402 Liberally Conservative  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 6:54:42pm

re: #386 Obdicut

Yeah. More sexual repression. That's the ticket. That's the way to revitalize the church. Really bear down on the shame for kids, that's great for them.

On a side note, did you know that 97% of US couples have sex before they marry? This percentage has been pretty much the same since the 1950s, when researchers started testing this.

The Church may have missed the boat on the whole sexual purity thing. Hell, even during the Middle Ages, when the Church had a set of law codes that it enforced through its own courts, there was legal and common prostitution, and soldiers going through villages weren't very, um, chivalrous.

Another example of people having an unrealistic memory of the "good old days", I guess.

403 Bagua  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 6:58:41pm

re: #384 Spare O'Lake

One last point...how is it that the Church itself has not debunked the stereotype?

Sorry I was out and didn't see your question.

It is a good one, it is difficult to understand how the Church thinks. My guess is in two parts.

First, the Church has its own ideas, practices and even legal codes. They see the world through their own tinted glasses, and around this particular issue those glasses are essential black. They are unlikely to see things from a modern, Western point of view and are thus either unaware of current research or hostile to it. We talk in terms of mental illness, and psycho-sexual orientations, they talk in terms of sin and the devil. It appears to me that they blame the victims for the priest having been tempted into sin. Thus their concern is for the priest not the child, something difficult for us to understand.

Secondly, this deflection allows them to pass the blame to a social group that the Church actively stigmatises and condemns, homosexuals. Thus it is not the Church's "fault" as they can pretend they were tricked into letting them in.

404 Gus  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 7:00:36pm

re: #400 Lidane

If by "perspective" you mean a bunch of deflection and drivel, then yes.

That article is a complete waste of time.

Big waste of time. The article is nothing but a laundry list of "they did it to" or more accurately a classic example of the Tu quoque logical fallacy. He breaks down the annual figures between public school incidents of molestation and compares it with domestic figures of priests.

In his "aha moment" he conclusions seems to be that the liberal [sic] educators have higher incidents of sexual misconduct then priests and are only using this scandal to mask their own scandal. He finally displays his ideologically imbalanced view with this simplistic paragraph:

It was not the Church that sexualized society with Kinseyesque sex miseducation and prurient messages everywhere -- in movies, shows, music and on the Internet. That was leftist academia, Hollywood, and their brothers in porn. It was not the Church that expanded the First Amendment to include protection of obscene imagery. That was leftist judges. It was not the Church that spread moral relativism and its corollary, "If it feels good, do it," an idea that can find pedophilia no worse than peanut butter. That was leftist philosophers and the millions who wanted freedom to sin. It was not the Church that, reducing man to mere beast, found a basis for his behavior in the animal kingdom. That was leftist anthropologists and their acolytes. And it was not the Church that first subordinated punishment to "rehabilitation" and subscribed to slap-on-the-wrist pseudo-justice. That was leftist psychology. Of course, insofar as the Church has allowed itself to become infected with the spirit of the age, it is culpable. But know that it is the infected, not the infection.

Here we find him blaming modern culture for the priest scandals and all the rest. Clearly he glanced over his Bronze Age manual written by nomads in which incest is indicated on numerous occasions including "rules for women" involving sexual liaisons. Perhaps he got lost in it numerous translations and revisions numbering in the 100s.

And as you can see in the bolded part he goes as far as to denounce the modern sciences.

A worthless screed one would expect from American Thinker.

405 Bagua  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 7:06:19pm

re: #392 eclectic infidel

Thank you for this post. It just boggles my mind that Donohue would even have the nerve to say this in public.

Cheers, I'm glad you found my post interesting. As for Donohue, it does indeed boggle the mind that he could spout such willful ignorance.

406 Liet_Kynes  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 8:14:45pm

re: #386 Obdicut

Yeah. More sexual repression. That's the ticket. …

The church does, yes, base its view of sexuality off of theology, and not of actual human sexuality. This is why its view of human sexuality is massively screwed up. The church has an inhuman view of sexuality.

I really don’t understand where people get the idea that the Church teaches that sex is shameful, it is just not in the theology. The Church tends to excommunicate people that say that sex is a sin. The Church never says “repress your sexuality” rather it says “let your sexuality flourish as it was meant to flourish”.

You are assuming that the Church’s theology just appears out of thin air – it does not. The Catholic Church’s theology rejects morality as determined by majority but its moral theology is developed from meditation upon human anthropology, natural reason, and mankind’s historical and ongoing interaction with God. Thus it is not possible to call Catholic theology “inhuman” when part of its source is the human person itself – especially the humanity of the incarnate Son.

re: #391 Obdicut

From what you've posted, your bias is rather obvious. …

You have also dodged the whole 'masturbation' issue vis-a-vis celibacy at every turn.

Everyone is biased. I choose not to obscure my biases so no one feels like I am trapping them.

I haven’t dodged anything. I have been consistent in saying that masturbation is incompatible with a proper understanding of human sexuality. I reject your premise that moral normalcy is determined by majority.

re: #395 Obdicut

Right. Your view of sexuality is colored entirely through the lenses of faith, and does not bear resemblance to actual human sexuality.

Christ himself made very, very little issue of the fact that he was male….

Finally, I note that you yet again dodged an opportunity to confront the obvious problem that masturbation poses for your contention that celibacy is the norm.

We are not discussing how people lead their lives but rather whether or not how people lead their lives is moral. You are assuming that morality is determined by the majority of human activity. I reject that not as a matter of faith but rather of good philosophy. I believe that Plato had something to say about that.

Christ made a HUGE HUGE deal about himself being male. I don’t know what scriptures you are reading, but how many times does he refer to himself being the SON OF MAN for example? That is a double stress in his masculinity right there. And of course there is much more than that.

My contention is that most people lead for the majority of their lives celibate lives. Perhaps I am wrong but I would be willing to bet that on average the total of a person’s periods of sexual activity are less than their periods of sexual inactivity (celibacy).

407 Achilles Tang  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 8:26:36pm

re: #406 Liet_Kynes

The Church never says “repress your sexuality” rather it says “let your sexuality flourish as it was meant to flourish”.

It's pretty obvious what you mean is:

“let your sexuality flourish as This Church Says it was meant to flourish”

408 Liet_Kynes  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 8:39:57pm

re: #404 Gus 802

...
And as you can see in the bolded part he goes as far as to denounce the modern sciences.

I think you are engaging in calumny here. The article at the American Thinker is not in any way shape or form denouncing the modern sciences. As you directly quote and make bold, it is denouncing leftist anthropologists and their acolytes. Modern science is not equivalent to leftist science. Science is science whether it is modern or ancient. Leftist science (by this what is really meant is typically the leftist interpretations of the soft sciences – sociology, anthropology, comparative religion, etc.) has a host of presuppositions that don’t belong in the scientific discipline. It is just as equally not science as the junk coming out of Answers in Genesis. Both try to hide their agendas behind science and attempt to shoe horn the datum into their predetermined theories.

409 Liet_Kynes  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 8:46:35pm

re: #407 Naso Tang

It's pretty obvious what you mean is:

“let your sexuality flourish as This Church Says it was meant to flourish”

Obviously the Christ is not the only voice saying that there are boundaries to how sexuality is meant to flourish. Anarchy doesn't work. Apart from Christianity, the human philosophy is sufficent to explain how sexuality is to flourish - Catholic theology really only elevates and refines what was already known by other great philosophers, religions, and students of the human person.

410 Achilles Tang  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 9:05:40pm

re: #409 Liet_Kynes

Obviously the Christ is not the only voice saying that there are boundaries to how sexuality is meant to flourish. Anarchy doesn't work. Apart from Christianity, the human philosophy is sufficent to explain how sexuality is to flourish - Catholic theology really only elevates and refines what was already known by other great philosophers, religions, and students of the human person.

I don't know that even you, let alone I, know what you are saying here.

Humans have been having sex for hundreds of thousands of years, if you don't want to count the millions of years before that; and without your "elevated" theology to guide them (though they no doubt had many papal equivalents through the eons).

Using the word Anarchy here is just another code word for My Way.

411 Hector1980  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 9:08:04pm

I'm Catholic. Myself, and now one of my nephews, went to a school founded by the Legion of Christ, which in turn was founded by Maciel. I'm disgusted that my parents' money (and it is an exceptionally expensive high school) could have contributed to that disgusting piece of human trash.

This whole affair is truly sickening.

412 Achilles Tang  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 9:10:35pm

re: #411 Hector1980

I'm Catholic. Myself, and now one of my nephews, went to a school founded by the Legion of Christ, which in turn was founded by Maciel. I'm disgusted that my parents' money (and it is an exceptionally expensive high school) could have contributed to that disgusting piece of human trash.

This whole affair is truly sickening.

So, why are you a Catholic?

413 Querent  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 9:28:49pm

re: #266 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

My digestive tract is currently debating the merits of solid, liquid or gas.

And thank you for sharing...

414 Querent  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 9:35:45pm

re: #316 Cato the Elder

Or, Rivka could just clean up the current infection on her PC and get a Mac. All the best people have them, setting them up is a whiz, and transferring all your important docs over from your deadly scam-magnet PC is too.

Why you elitist Elect of the MacRighteous, you... (okay, who else dates themselves by getting the Saint Silicon reference?)

415 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 9:41:00pm

re: #406 Liet_Kynes

I haven’t dodged anything. I have been consistent in saying that masturbation is incompatible with a proper understanding of human sexuality. I reject your premise that moral normalcy is determined by majority.

You're nuts. You are a religious extremist. People like you scare people like me.

416 Lidane  Thu, Apr 1, 2010 10:14:03pm

re: #415 Obdicut

You're nuts. You are a religious extremist. People like you scare people like me.

Honestly, I'm having a difficult time believing they're sincere at all.

417 Girl with a Pearl Earring  Fri, Apr 2, 2010 4:23:48am

[Link: www.americanthinker.com...]

FTA: "It was not the Church that sexualized society with Kinseyesque sex miseducation and prurient messages everywhere -- in movies, shows, music and on the Internet. That was leftist academia, Hollywood, and their brothers in porn. It was not the Church that expanded the First Amendment to include protection of obscene imagery. That was leftist judges. It was not the Church that spread moral relativism and its corollary, "If it feels good, do it," an idea that can find pedophilia no worse than peanut butter. That was leftist philosophers and the millions who wanted freedom to sin. It was not the Church that, reducing man to mere beast, found a basis for his behavior in the animal kingdom. That was leftist anthropologists and their acolytes. And it was not the Church that first subordinated punishment to "rehabilitation" and subscribed to slap-on-the-wrist pseudo-justice. That was leftist psychology. Of course, insofar as the Church has allowed itself to become infected with the spirit of the age, it is culpable. But know that it is the infected, not the infection."

418 Lidane  Fri, Apr 2, 2010 6:07:47am

re: #417 Girl with a Pearl Earring

Again, that's just a bunch of deflection and drivel.

Saying that yes, the Catholic Church has paedophiles and yes, they shift them around from parish to parish, and systematically cover up their abuse, and shame the victims instead of the clergy, but that it's not all that bad because the Church is just "a victim of the age" and it's all the liberals' fault for not buying into the Church's sexual repression, and by the way, public schools are worse is NOT PERSPECTIVE. It's a series of excuses. Period.

Honestly, if that's the best that anyone can come up with to defend the Church, it's no defense at all. In fact, it's pretty damned pathetic.

419 Girl with a Pearl Earring  Fri, Apr 2, 2010 2:49:13pm

re 410: Who's defending the Roman Catholic Church? Not me. And, FYI, I'm not Catholic. Just a follower of Jesus Christ (i.e., a "Christian").

420 Girl with a Pearl Earring  Fri, Apr 2, 2010 2:50:16pm

re 418 ("Lidane"): Who's defending the Roman Catholic Church? Not me. And, FYI, I'm not Catholic. Just a follower of Jesus Christ (i.e., a "Christian").

421 Lidane  Fri, Apr 2, 2010 2:55:44pm

re: #419 Girl with a Pearl Earring

re 410: Who's defending the Roman Catholic Church? Not me. And, FYI, I'm not Catholic. Just a follower of Jesus Christ (i.e., a "Christian").

I wasn't talking about you personally, or making assumptions about your religious beliefs. I was talking about the American Thinker article you posted.

That article is a waste of time and a pile of excuses, trying to defend the indefensible by blaming everyone else except those who *should* be blamed-- the Catholic hierarchy that just shuffled predators around to different parishes, covered up their sins, and had the gall to shame the victims into silence rather than attacking the problem head on.

422 Sacred Plants  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 4:02:29am

What the apologist is actually saying is had the post-pubescent brat inside that trojan priest have been able to get his sexual satisfaction at the age the desire came up, he probably would have aged before facing a choice of celibacy. For this miserable soul, blaming the homosexuals is the only to avoid blaming the homophobia.

Ratzinger might not have had the power to openly confront Maciel. The anatomy of the power struggle resembles very much that in the government of his native Germany, where Merkel lacked the power to openly confront Schroeder and had to work with his acolytes for several years, since an open confrontation might have ended with the exploitation thereof by her own acolytes. But just like in the secular government it now all depends on whether the hidden conflict is continued in the open after the hidden phase is won, or whether the replacement is an empty suit and the protagonist attempts to act as if nothing had happened. There may be some good in the fact that the Church did not experience a Honduran style power struggle with all due collateral damage after Ratzinger took office, but only if the current leadership is ready to let down the entire ideology of denial and its exponents to enable the free development of a culture of sexual self-determination.


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