US Stands with Israel

Middle East • Views: 3,145

The Obama administration is not joining the international chorus of condemnation against Israel: Official: US Will Stand with Israel.

I’m told there won’t be any daylight between the US and Israel in the aftermath of the incident on the flotilla yesterday, which resulted in the deaths of 10 activists.

Regardless of the details of the flotilla incident, sources say President Obama is focused on what he sees as the longer term issue here: a successful Mideast peace process.

“The president has always said that it will be much easier for Israel to make peace if it feels secure,” a senior administration official tells ABC News.

The suggestion is that US condemnation of Israel would further isolate that country, and make further peace negotiations between the Israelis and Palestinians even more difficult.

The senior administration official says that President Obama spoke to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu three times on Monday. Mr. Obama pushed the notion that last night – as the United Nations Security Council met to issue a statement about the incident – was the moment when the US had maximum leverage, that the longer the�statement was being debated the worse it would ultimately be for Israel.

Ultimately, as the statement was negotiated over night, the US succeeded in making it more neutral where other nations wanted it to criticize and condemn Israel.

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364 comments
1 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:19:32am
“The president has always said that it will be much easier for Israel to make peace if it feels secure,”

That right there says it all. I may not like Obama, but that is a very reassuring statement.

the US succeeded in making it more neutral where other nations wanted it to criticize and condemn Israel.

Color me surprised. The anti-Semitic brigade at it again.

2 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:20:42am

As we should. The muslim countries aren't going to like this. The UN & the MSM already found Israel guilty. This is a tough dangerous world.

3 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:20:51am
The suggestion is that US condemnation of Israel would further isolate that country, and make further peace negotiations between the Israelis and Palestinians even more difficult.

As I said last thread, this seems pretty half-assed.

It's like telling the world: "We don't really want to support them, but we feel like we should. So we do (but only because we have to)"

I also, want to point out that the US voted FOR the UN Resolution re: the NPT. That was a really big slap against Israel.

4 brennant  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:21:13am

Very glad to hear this. On the morning local news, they even went back and played the video from the IDS. Nice to see reason prevail.

OT: Al and Tipper split?

5 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:22:15am

re: #3 Joo-LiZ

As I said last thread, this seems pretty half-assed.

It's like telling the world: "We don't really want to support them, but we feel like we should. So we do (but only because we have to)"

I also, want to point out that the US voted FOR the UN Resolution re: the NPT. That was a really big slap against Israel.

That said. I'm criticizing the perceived attitude, not the fact that they DID (thankfully) actually support Israel in this case.

It is sad that we can't count on it as certainly as we might have in the past.

6 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:24:11am

re: #5 Joo-LiZ

That said. I'm criticizing the perceived attitude, not the fact that they DID (thankfully) actually support Israel in this case.

It is sad that we can't count on it as certainly as we might have in the past.

Yes, you can count on it. This idea that the Obama administration is somehow more anti-Israel than previous administrations is simply false.

7 darthstar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:25:21am

re: #6 Charles

Yes, you can count on it. This idea that the Obama administration is somehow more anti-Israel than previous administrations is simply false.

but oft repeated.

8 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:25:33am

re: #5 Joo-LiZ

You're criticizing a perceived attitude? What does that mean?

Why is your reaction to the US working to make criticism of Israel go away to grumble that you can't count on it happening?

9 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:26:30am

re: #6 Charles

Yes, you can count on it. This idea that the Obama administration is somehow more anti-Israel than previous administrations is simply false.

The jury's out on that one.

10 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:27:22am

re: #9 Spare O'Lake

The jury's out on that one.

No, it is not.

11 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:27:42am

re: #6 Charles

Yes, you can count on it. This idea that the Obama administration is somehow more anti-Israel than previous administrations is simply false.

It's a meme that they cannot back down from without losing face. They will come up with a way of making this support seem "unenthusiastic" or or "overqualified"...

12 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:28:18am

re: #10 Charles

No, it is not.

Thank you for your support. I really hope you're right.

13 MandyManners  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:29:17am

re: #3 Joo-LiZ

As I said last thread, this seems pretty half-assed.

It's like telling the world: "We don't really want to support them, but we feel like we should. So we do (but only because we have to)"

I also, want to point out that the US voted FOR the UN Resolution re: the NPT. That was a really big slap against Israel.

Ultimately, as the statement was negotiated over night, the US succeeded in making it more neutral where other nations wanted it to criticize and condemn Israel.

NEUTRAL?

14 Slap  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:29:50am

re: #3 Joo-LiZ

That was a really big slap against Israel.

Slap?

15 MandyManners  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:29:53am

Gonna' go feed the yak.

16 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:29:56am

re: #13 MandyManners

Ultimately, as the statement was negotiated over night, the US succeeded in making it more neutral where other nations wanted it to criticize and condemn Israel.

NEUTRAL?

Right, because he should have just alienated everyone in the entire world, right?

17 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:30:15am

Good.

18 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:30:43am

Time for work. Later lizards!

19 Kragar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:31:47am

Man, the wingnuts will be pissed. They were all working up to scream at Obama for not supporting Israel. I guess now they'll bitch it took so long.

20 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:31:54am

Certainly this is a good decision by the Obama administration and I hope it signals a continuing warming of relations between the US and Israel. I just hope that some in the administration don't try and make the case that "even handedness" requires us to unfairly bash Israel over something else in the future just to show the arab/muslim world that we are willing to be "tough" with Israel. Because if we do that, it will do two negative things:

1. It will not convince Israel's enemies that the USA is fairminded, even though I feel we are.

2. It will signal to Israel's enemies that support from the US towards Israel is not a given and can be pulled back like Lucy does when she holds the football for Charlie Brown to kick.

That said, I appreciate the good decision from the President regarding this situation.

21 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:31:55am

re: #10 Charles

The Obama Administration is pursuing a peace process agenda rather early in its Administration, which is a departure from other Administration where they tend to leave those efforts to the end of the 1st term or the second term as a legacy building measure.

The problem is that there is no peace process to conduct when the parties to the process have no interest in peace. Who exactly is Israel to make peace with? Hamas? Hamas seeks Israel's destruction and was ultimately overjoyed at the loss of lives in the flotilla since it provides propaganda coup for the terror group and bolsters its grip on Gaza. Fatah doesn't speak for all Palestinians and lacks control over Gaza - so if Israel were to even engage in direct talks with Fatah, we'd only be talking about the West Bank, not Gaza.

Hamas and Fatah continue squabbling, and the flotilla incident also undermines Fatah since they can't be seen as doing nothing and standing idly by while Gazans "suffer." So, watch for Fatah to take actions to bolster their standing with the Islamists and terrorists.

All the while, the Gazans and terror groups are busy attempting to attack Israel by any and all means necessary, and the terror masters in Damascus and Tehran laugh with impunity.

22 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:32:07am

re: #6 Charles

Yes, you can count on it. This idea that the Obama administration is somehow more anti-Israel than previous administrations is simply false.

Israel didn't get that support with regards to the NPT.

I totally agree that there is a massive misinformation campaign to make the situation seem worse than it is. But I can't agree it hasn't changed either.

23 tradewind  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:32:25am

Sorry for the O/T, but .....kudos to Tipper for hanging in there as long as she did......
[Link: www.politico.com...]

24 darthstar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:33:13am

re: #22 Joo-LiZ

Israel didn't get that support with regards to the NPT.

I totally agree that there is a massive misinformation campaign to make the situation seem worse than it is. But I can't agree it hasn't changed either.

Israel could sign on to the NPT...that would be a step in the right direction and take away one thread of criticism they face.

25 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:33:54am

Were you people who are so quick to scream that Obama isn't supporting Israel enough for you also critical when George W. Bush did exactly the same sorts of things?

How many UNSC anti-Israel resolutions did the Bush administration fight to make more neutral, without staging a grandstand play? Answer: ALL of them.

26 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:34:34am

re: #24 darthstar

Israel could sign on to the NPT...that would be a step in the right direction and take away one thread of criticism they face.

The focus shouldn't be on Israel at all with regard to Israel. The fact that the debate has been allowed to go there is absurd, and part of the problem.

It is a false moral equivalence designed to take the eye of Iran and other belligerent countries.

27 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:35:08am

re: #16 Charles

Right, because he should have just alienated everyone in the entire world, right?

It would be very interesting to see how the statement got changed overnight as a result of US efforts.
In the past, the US used to routinely veto anti-Israeli Security Couoncil resolutions without worrying so much about keeping the anti-Semites happy.

28 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:35:31am

Just heard on Israeli TV news:

Big wads of cash were found on some of the attackers' bodies, which leads to the possibility that these were mercenaries hired at the last minute before the voyage.

29 tradewind  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:35:33am

re: #4 brennant
(Answers the why of silence on the oil spill. )
IMO, the US had better put ' no daylight ' between itself and Israel, because we have a lot of 'splainin to do after supporting that asinine UN resolution.
It's not so much what we said.... it's what we didn't say.
The moral equivalence of Israel having nuclear weapons vs any other ME country?
A sick joke.

30 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:36:33am

re: #16 Charles

Right, because he should have just alienated everyone in the entire world, right?

The statement was going to happen. I'm not sure the US could have vetoed it-- but even if they could, that would have looked terrible.

Mollifying the language is about as good as could be hoped for.

If we want Israel to be strong, the biggest and best thing we can do is support alternative energy and move away from oil. Nothing else will strengthen Israel like weakening the despotic regimes arrayed against her.

31 tradewind  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:36:47am

re: #28 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey
Ya think?/
Or there was a payment due for some weapons being shipped in. Either makes sense.
The video of the flauxtilla holding their pep rally before sailing needs to go viral.

32 tradewind  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:37:26am

PIMF, flauxtilla participants.

33 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:37:46am

re: #25 Charles

Were you people who are so quick to scream that Obama isn't supporting Israel enough for you also critical when George W. Bush did exactly the same sorts of things?

How many UNSC anti-Israel resolutions did the Bush administration fight to make more neutral, without staging a grandstand play? Answer: ALL of them.

Maybe so, but the Bush administration's UN Ambassador John Bolton was a fierce defender of Israel and even was able to get the "Zionism is Racism" resolution overturned at the UN. As Joe Biden might say, for some of us that was a "big f'ing deal."

34 The Shadow Do  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:37:53am

re: #24 darthstar

Israel could sign on to the NPT...that would be a step in the right direction and take away one thread of criticism they face.

Lend them your unicorn. They can trust in that powerful magic and disarm. It will be a beautiful day, yes indeed.

35 darthstar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:38:14am

re: #26 Joo-LiZ

The focus shouldn't be on Israel at all with regard to Israel. The fact that the debate has been allowed to go there is absurd, and part of the problem.

It is a false moral equivalence designed to take the eye of Iran and other belligerent countries.

But they have nukes, and as such have a responsibility to the rest of the world to be honest about them...just as we do, and Pakistan does, and France, and China, and Russia. And India, whom I'm still pissed got a nuclear deal without signing the NPT.

36 ryannon  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:38:15am

re: #6 Charles

Yes, you can count on it. This idea that the Obama administration is somehow more anti-Israel than previous administrations is simply false.

From your lips to God's ear.

37 tradewind  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:38:17am

re: #27 Spare O'Lake
Yes, but the day of the evil neo-con is over./

38 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:38:41am

Work. Out.

39 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:38:59am

re: #31 tradewind

If true, I'm surprised. There are a lot of people willing to do harm for free.

40 darthstar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:39:17am

re: #33 _RememberTonyC

Maybe so, but the Bush administration's UN Ambassador John Bolton was a fierce defender of Israel and even was able to get the "Zionism is Racism" resolution overturned at the UN. As Joe Biden might say, for some of us that was a "big f'ing deal."

Bolton's one of those "purify Israel to bring on the rapture" types...with friends like that...

41 ryannon  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:39:18am

re: #15 MandyManners

Gonna' go feed the yak.

And don't talk back.

42 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:39:40am

re: #33 _RememberTonyC

Maybe so, but the Bush administration's UN Ambassador John Bolton was a fierce defender of Israel and even was able to get the "Zionism is Racism" resolution overturned at the UN. As Joe Biden might say, for some of us that was a "big f'ing deal."

And what is John Bolton up to these days?

Writing an introduction for Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer's upcoming book. Sorry, John Bolton has gone completely off the deep end. He's an embarrassment.

43 darthstar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:40:12am

re: #34 The Shadow Do

Lend them your unicorn. They can trust in that powerful magic and disarm. It will be a beautiful day, yes indeed.

Nobody ever 'disarms'...it just becomes part of the permanent negotiations.

44 The Shadow Do  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:40:37am

re: #40 darthstar

Bolton's one of those "purify Israel to bring on the rapture" types...with friends like that...

link for that?

45 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:40:43am

re: #35 darthstar

But they have nukes, and as such have a responsibility to the rest of the world to be honest about them...just as we do, and Pakistan does, and France, and China, and Russia. And India, whom I'm still pissed got a nuclear deal without signing the NPT.

But the difference fundamentally is that Israel has had them for decades, through trials and tribulations and have proved to be a responsible actor. Even Israel's enemies know this, and that is why the "nuclear ambiguity" policy hasn't triggered a nuclear arms race, whereas the possibility of an Iranian nuke is.

It is still a dangerous misfocus of the worlds attentions.

46 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:40:55am

Compare to this:

[Link: news.sky.com...]

US President George Bush has condemned the latest Israeli helicopter attacks in Gaza City.Israel admitted it launched a failed attempt to kill Hamas leader Abdul Aziz al-Rantissi in Gaza City, though two people were killed and more than 25 others wounded in the attack.

It later launched a second helicopter raid that killed three more Palestinians, following rocket attacks on Israel.

President Bush said: "I am troubled by the recent Israeli helicopter gunship attacks. I regret the loss of innocent life.

"I'm concerned that the attacks will make it more difficult for the Palestinian leadership to fight off terrorist attacks. I also don't believe the attacks help the Israelis' security.

"I am determined to keep the process on the road to peace, and I believe, with responsible leadership by all parties, we can bring peace to the region.

"I emphasise, all parties must behave responsibly to achieve that objective."

47 tradewind  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:41:29am

re: #39 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey
True dat..... some will do their mayhem for nothin' and their hits for free. But serious terrorists have a tab.

48 darthstar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:41:49am

re: #34 The Shadow Do

Lend them your unicorn. They can trust in that powerful magic and disarm. It will be a beautiful day, yes indeed.

You don't want to fuck with my unicorn.

49 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:41:52am

re: #35 darthstar

But they have nukes, and as such have a responsibility to the rest of the world to be honest about them...just as we do, and Pakistan does, and France, and China, and Russia. And India, whom I'm still pissed got a nuclear deal without signing the NPT.

There is a general principle in handling these types of things, and it goes as follows: deal with the worst first.

Why allow the world to focus on Israel, while worse actors are racing towards the finish line?

50 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:41:53am

re: #42 Charles

And what is John Bolton up to these days?

Writing an introduction for Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer's upcoming book. Sorry, John Bolton has gone completely off the deep end. He's an embarrassment.

OK fine, but did you agree with his work in repealing that odious resolution when it happened?

51 webevintage  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:42:01am

re: #23 tradewind

Sorry for the O/T, but ...kudos to Tipper for hanging in there as long as she did...
[Link: www.politico.com...]

Well that just makes me sad.

52 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:42:04am

re: #42 Charles

And what is John Bolton up to these days?

Writing an introduction for Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer's upcoming book. Sorry, John Bolton has gone completely off the deep end. He's an embarrassment.

He's also a frequent guest on Glenn Beck's show and seems to specialize in discussing the New World Order and Global Government conspiracies.

53 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:42:20am

re: #33 _RememberTonyC

Maybe so, but the Bush administration's UN Ambassador John Bolton was a fierce defender of Israel and even was able to get the "Zionism is Racism" resolution overturned at the UN. As Joe Biden might say, for some of us that was a "big f'ing deal."

P.S. About the "Zionism is Racism" resolution -- the Obama administration has also been strongly opposed to a repeat of the Durban conference, and has made it clear that the US does not support that kind of garbage. Another area in which the Obama administration has continued long-running US policies in regard to the Middle East.

54 tradewind  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:42:36am

re: #40 darthstar
Sez who?
I get really tired of that meme..... there are plenty of mainstream Christians ( because I know that's your target) who support Israel for reasons that have nothing to do with Armageddon.

55 darthstar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:42:58am

re: #49 Joo-LiZ

There is a general principle in handling these types of things, and it goes as follows: deal with the worst first.

Why allow the world to focus on Israel, while worse actors are racing towards the finish line?

You miss my point. If Israel is proactively involved in the discussion, then the focus won't be on them.

56 Kragar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:43:10am

re: #45 Joo-LiZ

But the difference fundamentally is that Israel has had them for decades, through trials and tribulations and have proved to be a responsible actor. Even Israel's enemies know this, and that is why the "nuclear ambiguity" policy hasn't triggered a nuclear arms race, whereas the possibility of an Iranian nuke is.

It is still a dangerous misfocus of the worlds attentions.

Plus I have noticed a remarkable lack of "Death to our neighbors" and "We will cleanse them in the fire of God" rallys coming from the Israelis.

57 tradewind  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:43:12am

re: #51 webevintage
The end of a forty year marriage is (almost) always sad. I'm very glad that the kids are grown and out.

58 The Shadow Do  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:44:13am

re: #48 darthstar

You don't want to fuck with my unicorn.

That's the spirit! Now if you would saddle him up with a nuke or two in the bags...

59 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:46:14am

re: #55 darthstar

You miss my point. If Israel is proactively involved in the discussion, then the focus won't be on them.

I think in Israel, there is a very strong sense of: we're damned no matter what we do.

It takes time, effort, resources to engage in all these things. It hampers strategic advantages.

How far do you go to appease these reasonable-sounding steps?

There will always be some sort of grievance for Israel's numerous opponents to call upon.

60 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:46:16am

The ODS is strong here today.

61 tradewind  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:46:35am

I'm very glad to see this headline, but I would feel better if it came directly from the WH instead of from Tapper.
He's pretty good, but like all DC reporters, he's not 100%. Hope he's spot on here.
Maybe Gibbs will weigh in shortly, if he hasn't already.

62 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:46:51am

It is really interesting how these assessments of Administration support (or not) for Israel now seem far more partisan than in the past.

63 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:47:02am

re: #60 Fozzie Bear

The ODS is strong here today.

While not to excuse those engaging in ODS, I might also point out that the IDS (Israeli Derangement Syndrome) is particularly strong out there today, as well.

64 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:47:49am

Just heard on the protest in front of the White House:

Israel doesn't just occupy Palestine, it occupies the White House and Congress.

65 tradewind  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:48:40am

re: #60 Fozzie Bear
I wouldn't call it a syndrome, but the charm is wearing thin. Not here so much as nationally.
Losing Dana Milbank and Maureen Dowd in one week doesn't help.

66 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:48:52am

re: #62 Spare O'Lake

It is really interesting how these assessments of Administration support (or not) for Israel now seem far more partisan than in the past.

It's actually pretty depressing. There has been a recent fierce debate throughout the newspapers and magazines about "liberal Zionism" and the growing opposition to Israel amongst liberals, the left, and even many American Jews who can't muster the effort to learn the facts and defend it. It is easier to agree with the majority of the world and repeat the mantra of human rights, peace and love for all.

I have to go for lunch now, but I'll be back later.

67 ryannon  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:49:03am

re: #49 Joo-LiZ

There is a general principle in handling these types of things, and it goes as follows: deal with the worst first.

Why allow the world to focus on Israel, while worse actors are racing towards the finish line?

More than ever, reason does not prevail. All over the planet and on all levels, immense and impersonal forces of life and death are building up for a massive confrontation.

In the meantime, y'all have a nice day.

68 darthstar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:50:15am

re: #59 Joo-LiZ

I think in Israel, there is a very strong sense of: we're damned no matter what we do.

It takes time, effort, resources to engage in all these things. It hampers strategic advantages.

How far do you go to appease these reasonable-sounding steps?

There will always be some sort of grievance for Israel's numerous opponents to call upon.

Maybe, but take away one brick, and you have less wall. Time and effort are a part of life. Taking a positive tack might be good, or a waste of time, but you never know until you try.

69 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:50:31am

The CNN feed from the protest just cut off while some guy back from the flotilla was talking about how the IDF soldiers boarded the boat he was one (not the one with the fighting).

70 darthstar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:50:57am

re: #63 thedopefishlives

While not to excuse those engaging in ODS, I might also point out that the IDS (Israeli Derangement Syndrome) is particularly strong out there today, as well.

The one doesn't excuse the other, and vice versa.

71 tradewind  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:51:40am

re: #64 Who Watches the Watchmen?
No worries.. the Pals have friends in DC.

I am outraged at Israel’s latest criminal act. I mourn with my fellow Free Gaza travelers

..... Rep. Cynthia McKinney

72 Kragar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:52:01am

re: #69 Who Watches the Watchmen?

The CNN feed from the protest just cut off while some guy back from the flotilla was talking about how the IDF soldiers boarded the boat he was one (not the one with the fighting).

"Yeah, we're just gonna ride in on boats carrying who knows what into a war zone. I don't see what the big deal is."

///

73 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:52:01am

re: #53 Charles

P.S. About the "Zionism is Racism" resolution -- the Obama administration has also been strongly opposed to a repeat of the Durban conference, and has made it clear that the US does not support that kind of garbage. Another area in which the Obama administration has continued long-running US policies in regard to the Middle East.


Thanks Charles .... I have always been willing to give credit to President Obama when he makes good decisions. My comment about Bolton was not a slap at Obama, but was a response to your question about good deeds done on Israel's behalf by the Bush 43 administration.

74 darthstar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:52:30am

re: #71 tradewind

No worries.. the Pals have friends in DC.

... Rep. Cynthia McKinney

That's FORMER Rep. Cynthia McKinney...she's gone the way of the Sheehan.

75 ryannon  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:53:01am

re: #60 Fozzie Bear

The ODS is strong here today.

When has Israel not been ultimately sold down the river? And when push comes to shove, it will happen again.

76 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:53:19am

re: #71 tradewind

No worries.. the Pals have friends in DC.

... Rep. Cynthia McKinney

Representative of where, exactly?

77 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:53:24am

It looks like the Al & Tipper Gore separation is knocking Israel of the front page.

78 tradewind  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:55:12am

re: #56 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Not much of this rhetoric, either...
[Link: www.jpost.com...]

79 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:55:19am

re: #77 Who Watches the Watchmen?

It looks like the Al & Tipper Gore separation is knocking Israel of the front page.

I wish we could get over our creepy national obsession with other people's marriages and sex lives.

80 tradewind  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:55:52am

re: #79 Obdicut
15 minutes./

81 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:57:02am

re: #77 Who Watches the Watchmen?

It looks like the Al & Tipper Gore separation is knocking Israel of the front page.

It's ManBearPig's fault!

82 wrenchwench  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:57:44am

Hey, thanks for the "Are you sure you want to cancel?" pop-up in the 'Post to LGF Pages' window! Obviously, I needed it this morning. But now my options are "OK" or "cancel". Are they the same thing?

/

83 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:58:08am

re: #79 Obdicut

It's a sport for those who don't like sports (baseball, football, etc.) although I think it has more to do with the puritanical streak that runs in deeply in the American psyche. We claim to not want to pry into the private lives of people, but can't get enough of the scandal and salaciousness.

84 Kragar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:58:52am

re: #82 wrenchwench

Hey, thanks for the "Are you sure you want to cancel?" pop-up in the 'Post to LGF Pages' window! Obviously, I needed it this morning. But now my options are "OK" or "cancel". Are they the same thing?

/

Use task manager, kill the page, safest way to kill that crap.

85 tradewind  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:58:53am

So the red cross is immediately on the spot visiting the flauxtilla's wounded , yet still has not found a minute to check in on Gilad Schalit....
[Link: www.jpost.com...]

86 Kragar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 9:59:45am

re: #83 lawhawk

It's a sport for those who don't like sports (baseball, football, etc.) although I think it has more to do with the puritanical streak that runs in deeply in the American psyche. We claim to not want to pry into the private lives of people, but can't get enough of the scandal and salaciousness.

Again, something that would be made better thru the wide spread use of crew served weapons.

87 Kragar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:02:19am

Polish President Consulted Before Crash

The transcript of cockpit conversations in the Polish presidential aircraft that crashed in April shows a crew confident they could land despite extremely limited visibility and an official saying President Lech Kaczynski was consulted about the flight that would eventually kill him.

Pilots ignored repeated warnings from automated systems that instructed them to regain altitude. They seem to have realized the situation only after they hit trees while making an approach to the Smolensk airport in western Russia.

“It’s going to be a nightmare. We won’t see anything,” an unidentified crew member said at one point when the plane was still at a high altitude. But there was no immediate reaction from other crew members, with a pilot saying several minutes later, as the fog was thickening, that things would probably be just fine.

“Well no, you can see the ground, you can see something. Maybe there won’t be a tragedy,” he said.

88 abaleh  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:02:50am

the "brutal" attack against the peace activists has already been likened to the Holocaust and 9/11.

89 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:04:53am

Admitted felon James O'Keefe is back at it again, with another "undercover" video this time targeting the census.

90 Gus  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:05:15am

re: #3 Joo-LiZ

As I said last thread, this seems pretty half-assed.

It's like telling the world: "We don't really want to support them, but we feel like we should. So we do (but only because we have to)"

I also, want to point out that the US voted FOR the UN Resolution re: the NPT. That was a really big slap against Israel.

NPT aside you do realize that you are quoting Jake Tapper's assessment of said senior administration official. That is not a direct quote from the president nor is it the assessment of same senior administration official. Therefore, it's a 3rd hand assessment coming from Jake Tapper who is shall we say, a bit of an ideologue.

Given what many have come to expect from the Obama administration we should welcome this announcement and try to avoid over analyzing things to fit our own preconceived expectations. This announcement no doubt is counter to many of Obama's supporters (or what many would call his base).

My chief concern was that Obama would have joined the international chorus and blindly condemn Israel. That he did not should be viewed as a welcome surprise.

91 wrenchwench  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:05:17am

re: #87 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Polish President Consulted Before Crash

Words you don't want to hear from a pilot:

Maybe there won’t be a tragedy
92 Kragar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:05:47am

re: #89 Charles

Admitted felon James O'Keefe is back at it again, with another "undercover" video this time targeting the census.

Somebody put a fricking bell on that shit.

Does this violate his probation in any way?

93 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:09:30am

OT: Ray Stevens new immigration song/video Come to the USA is pretty dead on (and funny in a satirical sort of way).


Youtube Video
94 The Shadow Do  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:09:39am

re: #91 wrenchwench

Right up there with "Ladies and gentlemen, we are 30 minutes out from the airport unfortunately we will be on the ground in 20 minutes"

and "flight attendant! Bring the bar cart"

95 tradewind  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:11:53am

re: #89 Charles
I would like to see an investigation done by someone with more credibility, because that is a target-rich environment, at least in my area.
There is an almost open acknowledgement that ginning up numbers will bring in cash for this or that group or program, so it is tempting to cook the numbers books.

96 abaleh  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:12:39am

The Love Boat

97 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:13:15am

re: #95 tradewind

Investigate what, exactly?

98 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:13:36am

re: #89 Charles

Targeting the census is ripe for abuse.

And there have been numerous reports about the Census and their handling of employment.

See:

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...] - hiring sex offenders/felons?

[Link: www.nypost.com...] - alleged job churning that includes hiring and firing persons multiple times - issues with training sessions, etc.

Plenty of reason to take O'Keefe's reporting with a grain of salt, but there's enough problems with the census to go around.

99 tradewind  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:13:42am

re: #94 The Shadow Do
The two most frequent last utterances caught on CVRs are ' Ah, Sh-t,' and variations onthe word Mama.
Seriously.

100 tradewind  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:14:38am

re: #97 Obdicut
Wait for it..
I knew someone would have links.
It's low hanging fruit with too many areas to even imagine.

101 Political Atheist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:16:04am

re: #69 Who Watches the Watchmen?

The CNN feed from the protest just cut off while some guy back from the flotilla was talking about how the IDF soldiers boarded the boat he was one (not the one with the fighting).


A great deal of the ODS would be accurate if aimed at the MSM, rather than our President. Much of our media is far more complicit in the bias against Israel than any President we ever had in office.

That outrage only gets crickets.

102 webevintage  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:16:18am

re: #81 Mad Al-Jaffee

It's ManBearPig's fault!

"I'm cereal!!"

103 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:17:54am

re: #89 Charles

Admitted felon James O'Keefe is back at it again, with another "undercover" video this time targeting the census.

What does he claim they're doing?

104 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:18:33am

Stupid question time from FireDogLake:

Erm, how many “number three” Al Qaeda guys are there?


It's not a caste system.

105 garhighway  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:19:08am

re: #94 The Shadow Do

Right up there with "Ladies and gentlemen, we are 30 minutes out from the airport unfortunately we will be on the ground in 20 minutes"

and "flight attendant! Bring the bar cart"

Or

"I wonder what this switch does?"

106 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:19:21am

re: #98 lawhawk

I take it as a given that any large government-run project is going to have a certain amount of fraud and waste. And it definitely should be investigated if there's reason to suspect census workers of fraud.

But what James O'Keefe does is not "investigation" -- it's propaganda, and he's demonstrated beyond a doubt that he'll edit, lie, and distort to spread his propaganda. He's an ideologue, not a journalist.

107 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:19:22am

re: #94 The Shadow Do

Right up there with "Ladies and gentlemen, we are 30 minutes out from the airport unfortunately we will be on the ground in 20 minutes"

and "flight attendant! Bring the bar cart"

Ladies and gentlemen there is absolutely nothing wrong with the plane......

(Pause)

(Pause)

The wings are not on fire....

108 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:19:52am

re: #98 lawhawk

Plenty of reason to take O'Keefe's reporting with a grain of salt, but there's enough problems with the census to go around.

Are you fucking serious? A grain of salt? That's all?

Jesus christ, the support O'Keefe still gets from the right is baffling to me.

Here's a better idea: Don't take O'Keefe at all. He's a criminal, racist shithead who makes conservatives look like crazy people. Don't take his reportage at all. Don't listen to him. Don't call him a videographer. Don't whitewash his activities. Don't host his videos on your blog.

109 Kragar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:22:37am

re: #107 jamesfirecat

Ladies and gentlemen there is absolutely nothing wrong with the plane...

(Pause)

(Pause)

The wings are not on fire...

"All passengers who can swim, please shift to the left side of the plane, I'll try to put us down near that island. All passengers who cannot swim, I'd like to thank you for flying with us..."

110 tradewind  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:22:44am

re: #108 Obdicut
From Lawhawk's link: You don't need to use O' Keefe.

I could have just as easily doubled the number. Why not? Didn't Census advertisements imply that my community would get more federal money if the population were larger?

Read more: [Link: www.nypost.com...]

111 Slap  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:23:02am

re: #108 Obdicut

He's a criminal, racist shithead who makes conservatives look like crazy people.

Really, Obdi -- stop with the gushing compliments already. Other criminal, racist shitheads might think you're insulting them.....

///////////

112 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:23:04am

re: #107 jamesfirecat

"There's no reason to become alarmed, and we hope you'll enjoy the rest of your flight. By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?"

-Elaine Dickinson, Airplane!

113 tradewind  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:24:44am

re: #108 Obdicut
Baby, bathwater./
That O'Keefe was a bad actor does not negate the evidence that brought down ACORN as being rife with fraud, pick it apart as you will. And it was a major player in the 2000 census.

114 garhighway  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:24:48am

re: #106 Charles

I take it as a given that any large government-run project is going to have a certain amount of fraud and waste.

FTFY

115 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:24:52am

re: #109 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

"All passengers who can swim, please shift to the left side of the plane, I'll try to put us down near that island. All passengers who cannot swim, I'd like to thank you for flying with us..."

"The scransons above your heads are now ready to flange. Please unfasten your safety belts and press the emergency photoscamps on the back of the seats in front of you."

116 okonkolo  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:25:28am

I would just like to chime in support of the statement which some criticize as too mild, indirect, etc. Some are lamenting that the Obama administration didn't simply veto the harsher condemnation statement (to make its own statement of how strongly it backs Israel) and instead worked to support the more generalized regret of loss of life one. Just guessing, but I would imagine that condemning the loss of life is far more helpful (or at lest less damaging) to US/NATO troops on the ground in Muslim countries and US interests there, trying to work with their govts., militaries, locals, than the full throated support/veto would be. All presidents have to keep the bigger picture in mind, even if the differences end up being small nuances.

117 tradewind  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:25:38am

re: #104 JasonA
It's a rolling vacancy.

118 webevintage  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:25:46am

James O'Keefe?
I would think that his "career" as a "video journalist/professional asshole" would have already had its 15 min.
Why would anyone take him seriously now?
Besides Breitbart of course....

119 Kragar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:26:00am

re: #113 tradewind

Baby, bathwater./
That O'Keefe was a bad actor does not negate the evidence that brought down ACORN as being rife with fraud, pick it apart as you will. And it was a major player in the 2000 census.

What does Ator the Fighting Eagle have to do with the census?

Oops, wrong O'Keefe.

120 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:26:20am

re: #113 tradewind

Baby, bathwater./
That O'Keefe was a bad actor does not negate the evidence that brought down ACORN as being rife with fraud, pick it apart as you will. And it was a major player in the 2000 census.

GAH!

Dude, hasn't there been about a hundred different trials none of which have found ACORN guilty of anything important?

121 tradewind  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:26:57am

re: #104 JasonA
FireDogLake?
Now someone will have to post links from WorldNutDaily for balance./

122 Kragar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:27:07am

re: #118 webevintage

James O'Keefe?
I would think that his "career" as a "video journalist/professional asshole" would have already had its 15 min.
Why would anyone take him seriously now?
Besides Breitbart of course...

He makes the "Secrets of Al Capone's vault" seem credible in comparison.

123 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:27:07am

re: #113 tradewind

Sure it does. There was no systemic vote registration fraud coming out of ACORN, and there was, I believe, zero cases of actual vote fraud. ACORN was defunded in a shitty-ass bill of attainder that represents the US government being manipulated by a little shit-turd. That this manipulation is welcomed by a lot of people on the 'right' side of the aisle because of who ACORN tended to register to vote is deeply, deeply troubling to me.

124 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:27:30am

re: #119 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

What does Ator the Fighting Eagle have to do with the census?

Oops, wrong O'Keefe.

I keep on thinking it was that artist who painted all of those pictures of "flowers."

125 Ericus58  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:27:39am

Flotilla Passengers Fire Live Ammunition at IDF Soldiers

Youtube Video

"In this footage you can hear the radio exchange between soldiers on their way to the bridge and the IDF ship. The soldiers report encountering live fire and serious violence. "

126 tradewind  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:27:50am

re: #120 jamesfirecat
And how're they doin?
Last time I looked, Bertha Lewis was posting bail after being arrested for demonstrating with SEIU in NY, so I think they're over.

127 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:27:54am

re: #113 tradewind

Baby, bathwater./
That O'Keefe was a bad actor does not negate the evidence that brought down ACORN as being rife with fraud, pick it apart as you will. And it was a major player in the 2000 census.

tradewind - I recall there being lots of talk about ACORN being a major player in the census, but I don't recall that it was borne out with actual, you know, facts.

I think they publicized the census and encouraged participation, but they provided no employees or any other direct help, IIRC.

128 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:28:43am

re: #122 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

He makes the "Secrets of Al Capone's vault" seem credible in comparison.

I can't find the right UHF clip so just say it with me folks....


ROADMAPS!

129 webevintage  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:29:02am

re: #126 tradewind

And how're they doin?
Last time I looked, Bertha Lewis was posting bail after being arrested for demonstrating with SEIU in NY, so I think they're over.

What does that have to do with anything?

130 tradewind  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:29:02am

re: #123 Obdicut
That we would have a problem with non-existent people such as Mick E. Mouse, or people who had long ago assumed room temperature, being signed up on the voting rolls is a bad thing?
Oh-kay.
Back to the Israeli sitch.

131 Kragar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:29:19am

re: #125 Ericus58

Flotilla Passengers Fire Live Ammunition at IDF Soldiers

[Video]

"In this footage you can hear the radio exchange between soldiers on their way to the bridge and the IDF ship. The soldiers report encountering live fire and serious violence. "

Peaceful and non-violent live fire and violence.

132 Slap  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:30:18am

re: #118 webevintage

Well, gosh -- you mean I'm just supposed to DISREGARD anything that Victoria Jackson says?

133 pharmmajor  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:30:42am

The left is using this to blast Obama for supporting Israel, the right is blasting Obama for "not supporting Israel enough" even though that's total bull... what the fuck happened to the sanity in this country?

134 prairiefire  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:31:05am

re: #130 tradewind

That we would have a problem with non-existent people such as Mick E. Mouse, or people who had long ago assumed room temperature, being signed up on the voting rolls is a bad thing?
Oh-kay.
Back to the Israeli sitch.

If a mouldering Mick E. Mouse actually shows up to vote and gets a ballot to fill out, that is a problem. His decomposing hand would probably fall off first.

135 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:31:22am

re: #126 tradewind

And how're they doin?
Last time I looked, Bertha Lewis was posting bail after being arrested for demonstrating with SEIU in NY, so I think they're over.

How does that relate to ACORN as a whole?

Isn't that like saying that if Steve Jobs got arrested for Drunk Driving all of Apple must be corrupt?

136 Ericus58  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:31:24am

IDF Transfers Humanitarian Aid From Gaza Flotilla to Gaza Strip

Youtube Video
137 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:31:30am

re: #130 tradewind

That we would have a problem with non-existent people such as Mick E. Mouse, or people who had long ago assumed room temperature, being signed up on the voting rolls is a bad thing?
Oh-kay.
Back to the Israeli sitch.

I believe those voter registration cards are supposed to be checked out by local registrars of voters before being added to the voter rolls.

Now, this sort of stuff made a lot of perhaps unnecesary work for registrars' offices. But I don't recall that those "voters" were actually added to the rolls and had people voting under those names.

138 tradewind  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:31:48am

re: #129 webevintage
You have to scroll back. Has to do with everything being copacetic, in with ACORN, which it is..... not.
(This isn't a good place for an ACORN thread, I'm more worried with our reaction to the Israeli situation. Mea culpa for breaking in with the Gore split, although I see I wasn't the only one).

139 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:31:52am

re: #133 pharmmajor

The left is using this to blast Obama for supporting Israel, the right is blasting Obama for "not supporting Israel enough" even though that's total bull... what the fuck happened to the sanity in this country?

The lobbyists bought it and dumped it at sea wearing concrete shoes. It's sleeping with the fishes and a bunch of oil from BP's runaway well.

140 Reginald Perrin  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:32:02am

re: #130 tradewind

That we would have a problem with non-existent people such as Mick E. Mouse, or people who had long ago assumed room temperature, being signed up on the voting rolls is a bad thing?
.

How many of those false registrations resulted in voter fraud......someone actually voting in an election?

141 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:32:17am

re: #85 tradewind

So the red cross is immediately on the spot visiting the flauxtilla's wounded , yet still has not found a minute to check in on Gilad Schalit...
[Link: www.jpost.com...]

Should the Red Cross use force to break into Hamas' prison, or should they follow their mandate to treat all wounded, when they can, on whatever side they may find them?

Trying to make the Red Cross into a bogeyman on this issue is despicable.

142 tradewind  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:32:49am

re: #134 prairiefire
It happens in my county all the time. Not a lot of proof required as to who you are, as long as you say who you are. So it's tempting.

143 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:33:27am

re: #130 tradewind

That we would have a problem with non-existent people such as Mick E. Mouse, or people who had long ago assumed room temperature, being signed up on the voting rolls is a bad thing?
Oh-kay.
Back to the Israeli sitch.

Doesn't ACORN have to legally turn in all the voter registration cards they're given. Besides for all we know there might actually be somebody named Mick E. Mouse, parents can be cruel like that....

Besides, voter registration fraud only goes from harmless prank to major problem if somebody actually shows up to vote under that name, and don't they need some pretty impressive fake IDs to pull that of?

144 prairiefire  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:33:35am

re: #123 Obdicut

All those card carrying Republican, low income single moms will have to go elsewhere for their first time home buyer loans.
Another short sighted shot in the foot by rightie activists.

145 tradewind  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:33:48am

re: #140 Reginald Perrin
Down here, hundreds and hundreds.
Many get discovered and tossed, many don't.
No mas with this stuff here.

146 webevintage  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:33:50am

re: #130 tradewind

That we would have a problem with non-existent people such as Mick E. Mouse, or people who had long ago assumed room temperature, being signed up on the voting rolls is a bad thing?

It WOULD be a bad thing if they got to vote.
Or even showed up to vote.
But they did not....
ACORN had employee issues.
When screwed up registration sheets we found they turned them in and alerted the authorities.

147 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:34:05am

re: #137 reine.de.tout

Good point. ACORN is also law-bound to submit all registrations collected, and they noted which ones they thought were fraudulent.

The people screwed over by the false registrations were... ACORN, who paid for them to go out and register real people.

I do not get how anyone can still not understand this.

148 tradewind  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:34:07am

re: #143 jamesfirecat
Nope.

149 Ericus58  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:34:18am

Weaponry Used by Two Palestinians to Attempt Terror Attack Today

Youtube Video
150 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:34:34am

I'm just hoping that while he's in custody the Israelis give this guy a shave with his own knife...

151 dugmartsch  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:34:41am

re: #137 reine.de.tout

I believe those voter registration cards are supposed to be checked out by local registrars of voters before being added to the voter rolls.

Now, this sort of stuff made a lot of perhaps unnecesary work for registrars' offices. But I don't recall that those "voters" were actually added to the rolls and had people voting under those names.


Man, you guys are obtuse about this registration thing as the media are about Israel.

It's the law that if someone fills out a registration form, AND EVEN IF YOU KNOW THAT IT IS A FAKE, you have to hand it over to the government.

Getting Mick E Mouse registered is a lot easier than showing up at a polling booth as Mick E Mouse and voting. Not that that would actually happen, because they wouldn't be on the voter rolls anyway. If you don't like the law, you had eight years to change it. What was stopping you?

152 prairiefire  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:35:13am

re: #142 tradewind

It happens in my county all the time. Not a lot of proof required as to who you are, as long as you say who you are. So it's tempting.

You are telling me those patriotic elderly poll watchers are allowing voter fraud in your county? You should contact your state's AG.

153 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:35:26am

re: #140 Reginald Perrin

How many of those false registrations resulted in voter fraud...someone actually voting in an election?

You know, it's possible there were a few.

But that would be a problem of the registrar's office not checking thoroughly.

ACORN has no official authority to simply place people on the voter rolls.
None.

They can, and do, get out and encourage people to register to vote, and they are obligated to turn in ALL REGISTRATION forms, regardless of how the person filled it out.

154 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:35:45am

re: #79 Obdicut

I wish we could get over our creepy national obsession with other people's marriages and sex lives.

I'm pulling for Tipper!

155 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:35:55am

re: #145 tradewind

Down here, hundreds and hundreds.
Many get discovered and tossed, many don't.
No mas with this stuff here.

Well isn't that your particular state's problem to solve rather than ACORNS?

156 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:36:01am

re: #145 tradewind

Please support your claim that there were hundreds of cases of voter fraud 'down here'.

You can't, because it's a lie.

157 abolitionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:36:42am

re: #10 Charles

No, it is not.

re: #25 Charles
BHO's refusal to bow to international pressure to condemn Israel for defending itself is certainly a welcome step forward, and I commend him for it. However, please consider
US may join 'Alliance of Civilizations'

Israeli officials expressed surprise and bewilderment on Thursday at reports the Obama administration is preparing to join an international advisory group called the Alliance of Civilizations. The US has hitherto largely shunned the group due to concerns over its anti-Israel and anti-Western stances.

and Obama To Bestow Highest Award on An Anti-Semite - Mary Robinson
From that last link,

The biggest issue for me, however, hanging over Robinson’s selection is her stewardship of the UN Human Rights Commission in 2002. At the April 2002 session, the commission voted (and passed) a resolution endorsing “all available means, including armed struggle” to establish a Palestinian state.
[snip]
Basically, under Robinson’s stewardship, the commission decided to recognize the murder of non-combatant men, women, and children on buses and in cafes as legal.

It remains to be seen how this plays out.

158 Slap  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:36:54am

re: #142 tradewind

It happens in my county all the time.

Now THAT seems like a statement that would be supported by evidence of investigations, or at least a news link or two, yes?

159 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:37:15am

As an institution, ACORN did nothing improper in 2008. It has never been established otherwise. Some employees of ACORN managed to screw over their employer, however.

No amount of Breitbartesqe flailing will change that fact.

Jesus, let this non-issue die already.

160 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:37:44am

re: #151 dugmartsch

Man, you guys are obtuse about this registration thing as the media are about Israel.

It's the law that if someone fills out a registration form, AND EVEN IF YOU KNOW THAT IT IS A FAKE, you have to hand it over to the government.

Getting Mick E Mouse registered is a lot easier than showing up at a polling booth as Mick E Mouse and voting. Not that that would actually happen, because they wouldn't be on the voter rolls anyway. If you don't like the law, you had eight years to change it. What was stopping you?

Who the hell are you talking to with that tone?
Idiot.

161 webevintage  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:37:56am

re: #138 tradewind


(This isn't a good place for an ACORN thread, I'm more worried with our reaction to the Israeli situation. Mea culpa for breaking in with the Gore split, although I see I wasn't the only one).

I agree.
No more ACORN for me....

162 ryannon  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:37:59am

re: #133 pharmmajor

The left is using this to blast Obama for supporting Israel, the right is blasting Obama for "not supporting Israel enough" even though that's total bull... what the fuck happened to the sanity in this country?

What the fuck happened to sanity anywhere?

Let me know when you find it.

163 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:39:02am

I can't believe we're talking about ACORN.

ACORN is dead. All of the good and bad it ever did is history, and it will never do good or bad again, because some punk-ass liar brought it down with a lying video campaign, supported by Fox and the loony right, and acceded to by a pussy-ass congress that couldn't wait for confirmation.

164 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:39:42am

re: #151 dugmartsch

And downding for calling me obtuse when I'm basically saying the same thing you've said.
idiot.

165 ryannon  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:39:59am

re: #150 Cato the Elder

I'm just hoping that while he's in custody the Israelis give this guy a shave with his own knife...

What ever happened to Rage Boy?

Is that his dad?

166 Reginald Perrin  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:40:02am

re: #145 tradewind

Down here, hundreds and hundreds.
Many get discovered and tossed, many don't.
No mas with this stuff here.

As usual, you make an outrageous claim and offer no facts to back it up.

167 Slap  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:41:05am

re: #162 ryannon

I saw some go up for auction on Ebay yesterday, but it was counterfeit....

168 webevintage  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:41:23am

Rep. Anthony Weiner, D-N.Y., just issued the following statement in reaction to Israel's flotilla raid:

While the demand for answers seems to echo in capitals around the world, the facts here are largely known.

We know this tragedy was instigated by Turkey. We know that Israel had not only warned that this boat was in violation of an entirely lawful blockade, but had offered safe harbor to the boat in Ashdod. We also know that a known terrorist group – Hamas – has put its hateful agenda over the well being of its people.

Any loss of life is tragic. This loss was the result of Turkish instigation and Hamas terror policies. Even if we are the only country on earth that sees the facts here, the United States should stand up for Israel.

169 webevintage  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:42:34am

Forgot the link:
[Link: www.salon.com...]

170 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:42:39am

re: #168 webevintage

Rep. Anthony Weiner, D-N.Y., just issued the following statement in reaction to Israel's flotilla raid:

While the demand for answers seems to echo in capitals around the world, the facts here are largely known.

We know this tragedy was instigated by Turkey. We know that Israel had not only warned that this boat was in violation of an entirely lawful blockade, but had offered safe harbor to the boat in Ashdod. We also know that a known terrorist group – Hamas – has put its hateful agenda over the well being of its people.

Any loss of life is tragic. This loss was the result of Turkish instigation and Hamas terror policies. Even if we are the only country on earth that sees the facts here, the United States should stand up for Israel.

And he's a democrat! Yay! We need to fine out how to breed more spine bearing democrats in this nation!

171 Kragar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:43:06am

re: #154 Spare O'Lake

I'm pulling for Tipper!

TMI my friend, TMI

172 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:43:17am

re: #62 Spare O'Lake

It is really interesting how these assessments of Administration support (or not) for Israel now seem far more partisan than in the past.

You've got to be kidding me.

173 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:43:22am

re: #168 webevintage

Rep. Anthony Weiner, D-N.Y., just issued the following statement in reaction to Israel's flotilla raid:

While the demand for answers seems to echo in capitals around the world, the facts here are largely known.

We know this tragedy was instigated by Turkey. We know that Israel had not only warned that this boat was in violation of an entirely lawful blockade, but had offered safe harbor to the boat in Ashdod. We also know that a known terrorist group – Hamas – has put its hateful agenda over the well being of its people.

Any loss of life is tragic. This loss was the result of Turkish instigation and Hamas terror policies. Even if we are the only country on earth that sees the facts here, the United States should stand up for Israel.

Not likely to hear that kind of straight talk from the mealy-mouthed administration.

174 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:43:50am

re: #123 Obdicut

Sure it does. There was no systemic vote registration fraud coming out of ACORN, and there was, I believe, zero cases of actual vote fraud. ACORN was defunded in a shitty-ass bill of attainder that represents the US government being manipulated by a little shit-turd. That this manipulation is welcomed by a lot of people on the 'right' side of the aisle because of who ACORN tended to register to vote is deeply, deeply troubling to me.

specificity is your friend. it depends on which state you're talking about...they got kicked the fuck out of Ohio.

175 ryannon  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:43:54am

re: #168 webevintage

Rep. Anthony Weiner, D-N.Y., just issued the following statement in reaction to Israel's flotilla raid:

While the demand for answers seems to echo in capitals around the world, the facts here are largely known.

We know this tragedy was instigated by Turkey. We know that Israel had not only warned that this boat was in violation of an entirely lawful blockade, but had offered safe harbor to the boat in Ashdod. We also know that a known terrorist group – Hamas – has put its hateful agenda over the well being of its people.

Any loss of life is tragic. This loss was the result of Turkish instigation and Hamas terror policies. Even if we are the only country on earth that sees the facts here, the United States should stand up for Israel.

Straight-shooting dude. Bravo.

176 cenotaphium  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:43:57am

re: #162 ryannon

What the fuck happened to sanity anywhere?

Let me know when you find it.

I think Cthulhu is turning over in his sleep, nibbing at our collective sanity in doing so.

Time to learn Who Will Be Eaten First.

177 tradewind  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:43:59am

re: #127 reine.de.tout
Hope you are right.
They certainly have a history..... even this out- of -date chart shows multiple counts of fraud in many states having to do with voter registration.
[Link: www.rottenacorn.com...]

178 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:44:00am

re: #63 thedopefishlives

While not to excuse those engaging in ODS, I might also point out that the IDS (Israeli Derangement Syndrome) is particularly strong out there today, as well.

Quite true, but not relevant. Obama and Israel are not opposing forces.

179 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:44:48am

re: #157 abolitionist

Here we go again. I'll repeat what I wrote yesterday:

The Obama administration has made it extremely clear that they are opposed to the OIC's efforts to criminalize criticism of Islam -- Hillary Clinton gave a speech about it recently and made it clear that the US stands for free speech and not for blasphemy laws.

In that context, it makes more sense for the US to join the United Nations Alliance of Civilizations in order to have more influence in fighting against the nations who are trying to restrict speech in the name of religion.

180 tradewind  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:45:08am

re: #178 SanFranciscoZionist
Well, we hope. After the way he treated Netanyahu, I wasn't so sure.

181 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:45:32am

re: #177 tradewind

Hope you are right.
They certainly have a history... even this out- of -date chart shows multiple counts of fraud in many states having to do with voter registration.
[Link: www.rottenacorn.com...]

I'm no fan of ACORN.
But everything I've checked out indicates their impact on voter registration and the census is minimal, well, nothing actually.

182 MandyManners  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:45:54am

re: #168 webevintage

Rep. Anthony Weiner, D-N.Y., just issued the following statement in reaction to Israel's flotilla raid:

While the demand for answers seems to echo in capitals around the world, the facts here are largely known.

We know this tragedy was instigated by Turkey. We know that Israel had not only warned that this boat was in violation of an entirely lawful blockade, but had offered safe harbor to the boat in Ashdod. We also know that a known terrorist group – Hamas – has put its hateful agenda over the well being of its people.

Any loss of life is tragic. This loss was the result of Turkish instigation and Hamas terror policies. Even if we are the only country on earth that sees the facts here, the United States should stand up for Israel.

Bless his heart.

183 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:45:57am

re: #71 tradewind

No worries.. the Pals have friends in DC.


... Rep. Cynthia McKinney

I'll assume you simply don't know that McKinney is no longer 'in DC'.

184 tradewind  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:46:16am

re: #179 Charles
It's kind of too late, though isn't it? Aren't there multiple laws on the books in several countries in Europe against ' blaspheming ' religions?

185 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:46:33am

re: #76 Obdicut

Representative of where, exactly?

G-Crazytown

186 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:47:10am

re: #184 tradewind

It's kind of too late, though isn't it? Aren't there multiple laws on the books in several countries in Europe against ' blaspheming ' religions?

What does that have to do with the UN?

187 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:47:15am

re: #184 tradewind

It's kind of too late, though isn't it? Aren't there multiple laws on the books in several countries in Europe against ' blaspheming ' religions?

Then it can work to overturn those laws.

188 Cato the Elder  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:47:40am

re: #184 tradewind

It's kind of too late, though isn't it? Aren't there multiple laws on the books in several countries in Europe against ' blaspheming ' religions?

Perhaps we should invade them.

189 ryannon  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:48:21am

re: #176 cenotaphium

I think Cthulhu is turning over in his sleep, nibbing at our collective sanity in doing so.

Time to learn Who Will Be Eaten First.

"Everything goes better with a little Grey Poupon."

- Cthulhu

190 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:48:24am

re: #172 SanFranciscoZionist

You've got to be kidding me.

"Get out of town."

191 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:48:48am

re: #168 webevintage

I like Weiner.

192 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:49:21am

re: #191 Obdicut

I like Weiner.

Giggity

193 Jerk  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:49:50am

re: #191 Obdicut

I like Weiner.

I smell a bumper sticker.

194 webevintage  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:50:22am

re: #169 webevintage

Forgot the link:
[Link: www.salon.com...]

Oh, and really?
How much do the comments on Salon suck....

195 tradewind  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:50:25am

re: #182 MandyManners
I'm happy to now have something good to say about the Weiner.
re: #183 SanFranciscoZionist
Oh, well good. But I'm sure that Jim McDermott and Jim Moran will be happy to take up where she left off.

196 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:50:36am

re: #192 Fozzie Bear

Giggity

awww riiiight...

197 tradewind  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:51:07am

re: #191 Obdicut
NTTATWWT/

198 Kragar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:51:58am

re: #193 Jerk

I smell a bumper sticker.

Thats a strange fetish.

199 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:52:03am

re: #193 Jerk

I smell a bumper sticker.

Sorry, that's just me. I use a glue-based shampoo.

200 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:53:09am

re: #113 tradewind

Baby, bathwater./
That O'Keefe was a bad actor does not negate the evidence that brought down ACORN as being rife with fraud, pick it apart as you will. And it was a major player in the 2000 census.

Oh, bullshit.

201 researchok  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:53:23am

The Obama administration's relationship with Israel is in no substantive way different than previous administration. There has been no talk of severing or limiting critical areas of partnership- intelligence, trade, scientific cooperation, etc.

What has changed substantively is the way American and Israelis adversaries wage their wars, in both the figurative and literal sense. Obama is acknowledging those changes and reacting to them, forcing not only the Israelis but the Arab world as well into creating a scenario where spinning wheels are not acceptable. Up until now, both sides have been perfectly happy with the status quo, as evidenced by the reality of where we are.

Whether or not Obama's ideas will pan out has yet to be determined. That said, he is clearly breaking new ground. After forty plus years, that may not be such a bad idea.

202 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:54:29am

re: #184 tradewind

It's kind of too late, though isn't it? Aren't there multiple laws on the books in several countries in Europe against ' blaspheming ' religions?

Well, Europe does have a history of going batshit insane and trying to eliminate all adherents to a certain religion. I think a little overreaction to the holocaust is understandable in that context, albeit not commendable entirely.

A culturally "holier than thou" attitude will not help us at all. It might feel good, but it's counterproductive.

203 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:54:56am

re: #200 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh, bullshit.

Acorn was a dem tool, corrupt to boot. And Obama threw it under the bus without even a peep.

204 Political Atheist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:55:02am

re: #147 Obdicut

Here are some contributing facts-
The atmosphere is one of utterly lax enforcement of registration rules, voting rules, and includes proven instances of double voting. At the same every attempt to tighten up standards is pilloried as disenfranchisement, like Voter ID. That helps explain people just not understanding how so much fraudulent registration would not wind up being fraudulent votes.

Acorn is merely a reflection of how poorly we run our electoral system. As does the high error factor in vote counts and results.

205 okonkolo  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:55:58am

Not good for Netanhayu if true: the flotilla pan did not have cabinet approval: Your text to link...

206 manticore  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:56:31am

re: #53 Charles

Charles, i don't know how you can objectively say that the Obama administration is just as supportive of Israel as the Bush administration. Bush's support during the 2006 war speaks for itself. Obama's stand on building in Jerusalem and his subsequent treatment of Netanyahu in Washington is in sharp contrast.

207 palomino  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:56:58am

re: #177 tradewind

Hope you are right.
They certainly have a history... even this out- of -date chart shows multiple counts of fraud in many states having to do with voter registration.
[Link: www.rottenacorn.com...]

Do you understand the difference between voter fraud and voter registration fraud?

The "hundreds of them tossed" in your county--if they even exist--are almost certainly bogus registrations, not actual fraudulent votes.

But, if they are actual votes, I'm sure you have a link, don't you?

208 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:57:21am

re: #126 tradewind

And how're they doin?
Last time I looked, Bertha Lewis was posting bail after being arrested for demonstrating with SEIU in NY, so I think they're over.

And you're so happy about that, you'll overlook what a vile, lying performance artist O'Keefe is. I get that part.

(BTW, someone getting arrested at a demo doesn't actually mean that their organization is toast. The two things may be true, but they're not necessarily connected.)

209 Kragar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:57:42am

re: #205 okonkolo

Not good for Netanhayu if true: the flotilla pan did not have cabinet approval: Your text to link...

You had ships trying to break a blockade intercepted by troops keeping the blockade. What the hell?

210 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:58:49am

re: #130 tradewind

That we would have a problem with non-existent people such as Mick E. Mouse, or people who had long ago assumed room temperature, being signed up on the voting rolls is a bad thing?
Oh-kay.
Back to the Israeli sitch.

There was no voter fraud. There was registration fraud. ACORN notified the people they turned the paperwork over to that there was registration fraud. Whine and pretend all you like, it's not much of scandal.

211 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:59:02am

Any organization which makes it it's mission to register as many poor and disenfranchised people to vote must be bad, right? I mean, clearly, they must be up to no good.

Poll Tax Now!!!

///

212 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 10:59:21am

re: #202 Fozzie Bear

Well, Europe does have a history of going batshit insane and trying to eliminate all adherents to a certain religion. I think a little overreaction to the holocaust is understandable in that context, albeit not commendable entirely.

A culturally "holier than thou" attitude will not help us at all. It might feel good, but it's counterproductive.

that was far too sensible for someone who leans left...

//

213 Political Atheist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:00:01am

re: #164 reine.de.tout

It is just amazing that we contract out such important work. The census apparently is a far higher priority. How bogus registration schemes do not wind up putting the violators in jail I have no idea.

I called the Police once to try and but a fraudulent approach on a petition to get a proposition on the ballot. The guy told me one thing, and the form said something else entirely. The cops and the punk wound up laughing at my efforts. The cops via phone. "Not our department". Sheesh.

214 okonkolo  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:00:46am

re: #209 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

If the cabinet that was supposed to grant approval of said actions was not consulted and did not give approval, that looks like someone was cutting some out of the decision or that the cabinet is dysfunctional. It is not like this was some sort of stealth surprise flotilla and there was no time to consult the cabinet. This was well publicized and Israel knew right where it was.

215 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:00:59am

re: #212 Aceofwhat?

that was far too sensible for someone who leans left...

//

Yes well, I always thought that your ability to speak in complete sentences without mentioning Jesus or advocating the public execution of random black people was odd for someone who leans right, but I accept you.

216 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:01:08am

re: #215 Fozzie Bear

Yes well, I always thought that your ability to speak in complete sentences without mentioning Jesus or advocating the public execution of random black people was odd for someone who leans right, but I accept you.

////

217 Four More Tears  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:01:52am

re: #216 Fozzie Bear

///

So you don't accept him? I'm confused. :P

218 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:01:59am

re: #173 Spare O'Lake

Not likely to hear that kind of straight talk from the mealy-mouthed administration.

And if we do, there will still be something wrong with it.

219 tradewind  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:03:06am

Out. Resume dogpile, but be gentle.
:)

220 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:03:41am

re: #215 Fozzie Bear

Yes well, I always thought that your ability to speak in complete sentences without mentioning Jesus or advocating the public execution of random black people was odd for someone who leans right, but I accept you.

oh - you forgot to add that when you lay it on that thick, i get the implied sarcasm tags...heh

221 William of Orange  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:03:43am

I have some problems with Israel in this one. Sofar we've only seen two clips made public by the IDF which shows the IDF in a role of the victim. I have no doubt the crew of the raided ships made their own documetation and we will never see that footage unless it's heavily redacted.

Sure, violence was used to repell this invasion but no member of the IDF was killed. There's also something else that bothers me. These ships were in international waters so in effect, this was not a security measure, this was an act of piracy. The only difference with Somali pirates are helicopters and the absense of a ransom sum.

Also, one of the ships was used by a Turkish relief organisation, recognized by the Turkish government. Turkey is not a terrorist state. On the contrary, it's an ally and American forces use Turkish soil as a hub in the war againt terrorism. All fatal victims were sailing on this ship.


I do understand why Israel won't trust anyone at face value. You only need to look in the not so distant past to know why, and sofar I haven't read anything of the nature of the cargo, other than "relief goods". But the pincer grip on the Gaza strip cannot remain like this forever.

222 palomino  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:03:45am

re: #211 Fozzie Bear

Any organization which makes it it's mission to register as many poor and disenfranchised people to vote must be bad, right? I mean, clearly, they must be up to no good.

Poll Tax Now!!!

///

Sad but true--the "urban flavor" of ACORN has a lot to do with right wing obsession and opposition.

223 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:03:48am

re: #203 Spare O'Lake

Acorn was a dem tool, corrupt to boot. And Obama threw it under the bus without even a peep.

Oh, bullshit, I say, once again.

224 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:04:09am

re: #218 SanFranciscoZionist

And if we do, there will still be something wrong with it.

ouch. that hurt 'cause it's true.

225 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:04:39am

re: #220 Aceofwhat?

oh - you forgot to add that when you lay it on that thick, i get the implied sarcasm tags...heh

I realized after I posted that that sarc tags might be best, even if it is obviously just snark.

226 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:04:40am

re: #206 manticore

Charles, i don't know how you can objectively say that the Obama administration is just as supportive of Israel as the Bush administration. Bush's support during the 2006 war speaks for itself. Obama's stand on building in Jerusalem and his subsequent treatment of Netanyahu in Washington is in sharp contrast.

Apples and oranges. Bush's administration also opposed 'settlement expansion'.

227 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:04:52am

re: #221 William of Orange

dear God...

228 RadicalModerate  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:04:59am

re: #106 Charles

But what James O'Keefe does is not "investigation" -- it's propaganda, and he's demonstrated beyond a doubt that he'll edit, lie, and distort to spread his propaganda. He's an ideologue, not a journalist.

Looks like O'Keefe has been caught yet again engaging on some "creative editing" of his filmed footage.

Surprise! O'Keefe edits out inconvenient footage from new BigGovernment video

One question for the more legally-minded here - would these actions by O'Keefe be considered a violation of his probation, since it appears that he is once again interfering with the official business of the United States?

229 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:05:07am

re: #210 SanFranciscoZionist

There was no voter fraud. There was registration fraud. ACORN notified the people they turned the paperwork over to that there was registration fraud. Whine and pretend all you like, it's not much of scandal.

Whine and pretend all YOU like...voter registration fraud is very, very bad.

230 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:05:50am

re: #218 SanFranciscoZionist

And if we do, there will still be something wrong with it.

Try me. Please.

231 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:07:28am

re: #229 Spare O'Lake

Whine and pretend all YOU like...voter registration fraud is very, very bad.

Nobody said it wasn't. However, there is no evidence to establish that ACORN perpetrated any such fraud.

232 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:08:32am

re: #221 William of Orange

I have some problems with Israel in this one. Sofar we've only seen two clips made public by the IDF which shows the IDF in a role of the victim. I have no doubt the crew of the raided ships made their own documetation and we will never see that footage unless it's heavily redacted.

Sure, violence was used to repell this invasion but no member of the IDF was killed. There's also something else that bothers me. These ships were in international waters so in effect, this was not a security measure, this was an act of piracy. The only difference with Somali pirates are helicopters and the absense of a ransom sum.

Also, one of the ships was used by a Turkish relief organisation, recognized by the Turkish government. Turkey is not a terrorist state. On the contrary, it's an ally and American forces use Turkish soil as a hub in the war againt terrorism. All fatal victims were sailing on this ship.


I do understand why Israel won't trust anyone at face value. You only need to look in the not so distant past to know why, and sofar I haven't read anything of the nature of the cargo, other than "relief goods". But the pincer grip on the Gaza strip cannot remain like this forever.

Recognize Israel's right to exist and permanently end the terror - that's all it would take and the blockade would be history.

233 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:09:31am

re: #228 RadicalModerate

Looks like O'Keefe has been caught yet again engaging on some "creative editing" of his filmed footage.

Surprise! O'Keefe edits out inconvenient footage from new BigGovernment video

One question for the more legally-minded here - would these actions by O'Keefe be considered a violation of his probation, since it appears that he is once again interfering with the official business of the United States?

I have no idea.

234 Kragar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:09:35am

re: #221 William of Orange

piracy - the act of robbery on the high seas.

Please explain how the use of troops enforcing a widely known and legal naval blockade exercising a search of a ship attempting to break the blockade constitutes robbery at sea.

235 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:10:09am

re: #221 William of Orange

sofar I haven't read anything of the nature of the cargo, other than "relief goods". But the pincer grip on the Gaza strip cannot remain like this forever.

i hardly know where to start with that uninformed bundle of words. i picked this paragraph at random.

they stated that it was their primary goal to 'run the blockade' as opposed to delivering humanitarian supplies. why? because humanitarian supplies are making it through to Gaza with no problem and heaven forbid that the Jews be perceived for the beautiful people that they are.

Pincer grip? Uhhh...besides the incontrovertible truth that basic supplies flow to Gaza uninterrupted, often on our dime, Egypt also blockades Gaza on their border.

I love it when folks give Egypt a magical get out of jail card for exactly the same behavior that Israel follows. Where's the outrage?

You know, because Egypt has never, like, ganged up on another country...or engaged in questionable human rights practices...or anything like that.

good grief.

236 Political Atheist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:10:39am

re: #221 William of Orange

You should look how blockades are enforced on the high seas-legally. There are links here from the Lizards, search the Pages. No it's no Piracy. It's blockade work.

237 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:11:02am

re: #232 Spare O'Lake

Recognize Israel's right to exist and permanently end the terror - that's all it would take and the blockade would be history.

The assumption underlying this statement is that Hamas (or any other organization) has the ability to put an end to terrorism. They could certainly recognize Israel's right to exist, and indeed should, but it's naive to assume that Hamas could stop terrorism emanating from within Palestine, even if they wanted to.

It goes a little deeper, culturally speaking, than anything any organization could put a stop to.

238 abolitionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:11:14am

re: #179 Charles

I see Obama's choice of Mary Robinson as one of 16 recipients of the Medal of Freedom as entirely discretionary, and this was after the Durban hatefest, which you insist Obama has publicly deplored.

I do hope your reading of BHO's character is close to accurate.

239 theheat  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:11:27am

re: #179 Charles

Related: I've been flooded with emails about Hillary and Obama, in a joint effort with the UN, "wanting to take our guns away so we're just like Europe." This has been circulating for months as one more reason to hate Obama and his anti-gun lapdog, Hillary. Trouble is, if you search high and low, you can't find anything that supports that in the context it's being passed along.

240 manticore  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:11:38am

re: #226 SanFranciscoZionist

Building in jewish neighborhoods in north or south jerusalem is not building in settlements, and the Bush administration never did or would have made such a controversy of such.

241 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:11:58am

re: #229 Spare O'Lake

Whine and pretend all YOU like...voter registration fraud is very, very bad.

No one's saying it isn't. However, after ACORN has been accused of every evil under the sun, including stealing the US presidential election, having it boil down to a bunch of five-buck-an-hour workers cheating to make some extra money is sort of deflating.

242 prairiefire  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:12:22am

re: #223 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh, bullshit, I say, once again.

Hi, SFZ. is school out for you? We are bouncing around in euphoria around our house. : )
Are your kids obsessed with Silly Bands, or did you already go through that fad? I've found the West Coast is about 18 months ahead of us with fads.

243 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:13:21am

re: #237 Fozzie Bear

The assumption underlying this statement is that Hamas (or any other organization) has the ability to put an end to terrorism. They could certainly recognize Israel's right to exist, and indeed should, but it's naive to assume that Hamas could stop terrorism emanating from within Palestine, even if they wanted to.

It goes a little deeper, culturally speaking, than anything any organization could put a stop to.

dude. please. how about they take it out of their charter? that'd be a good first step...

the assumption is not that Hamas could put an end to terrorism. the assumption is that Hamas could stop PROMOTING it actively, shooting rockets into Israel, and stop calling for the destruction of Israel as a country.

that's the assumption.

244 okonkolo  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:14:50am

re: #239 theheat

Related: I've been flooded with emails about Hillary and Obama, in a joint effort with the UN, "wanting to take our guns away so we're just like Europe." This has been circulating for months as one more reason to hate Obama and his anti-gun lapdog, Hillary. Trouble is, if you search high and low, you can't find anything that supports that in the context it's being passed along.

Well, clearly when Obama signed the law allowing citizens to carry guns in National Parks, that was just the first step in...uh, give me a minute...

245 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:15:02am

re: #239 theheat

Related: I've been flooded with emails about Hillary and Obama, in a joint effort with the UN, "wanting to take our guns away so we're just like Europe." This has been circulating for months as one more reason to hate Obama and his anti-gun lapdog, Hillary. Trouble is, if you search high and low, you can't find anything that supports that in the context it's being passed along.

it's both a nontroversy and a dumbtroversy. the SCOTUS just clarified the 2nd amendment...even if Obama and Hilliary were eeevilly plotting to steal our gunz, it's too late now. SCOTUS has spoken.

on that note...Daley is an asshole, as usual.

246 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:15:32am

re: #235 Aceofwhat?

i hardly know where to start with that uninformed bundle of words. i picked this paragraph at random.

they stated that it was their primary goal to 'run the blockade' as opposed to delivering humanitarian supplies. why? because humanitarian supplies are making it through to Gaza with no problem and heaven forbid that the Jews be perceived for the beautiful people that they are.

Pincer grip? Uhhh...besides the incontrovertible truth that basic supplies flow to Gaza uninterrupted, often on our dime, Egypt also blockades Gaza on their border.

I love it when folks give Egypt a magical get out of jail card for exactly the same behavior that Israel follows. Where's the outrage?

You know, because Egypt has never, like, ganged up on another country...or engaged in questionable human rights practices...or anything like that.

good grief.

And . . .
Didn't Egypt gas the tunnels and kill a bunch of people?

247 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:15:41am

re: #242 prairiefire

Hi, SFZ. is school out for you? We are bouncing around in euphoria around our house. : )
Are your kids obsessed with Silly Bands, or did you already go through that fad? I've found the West Coast is about 18 months ahead of us with fads.

oh, my daughter won't STOP with those things!!

248 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:16:15am

re: #243 Aceofwhat?

dude. please. how about they take it out of their charter? that'd be a good first step...

the assumption is not that Hamas could put an end to terrorism. the assumption is that Hamas could stop PROMOTING it actively, shooting rockets into Israel, and stop calling for the destruction of Israel as a country.

that's the assumption.

I was responding to this:

re: #232 Spare O'Lake

Recognize Israel's right to exist and permanently end the terror - that's all it would take and the blockade would be history.

... which definitely does imply that.

249 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:16:20am

re: #246 reine.de.tout

And . . .
Didn't Egypt gas the tunnels and kill a bunch of people?

lalalalalaican'thearyoulalalalala

250 dugmartsch  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:16:40am

re: #160 reine.de.tout

Who the hell are you talking to with that tone?
Idiot.

Not you.

251 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:17:32am

re: #247 Aceofwhat?

oh, my daughter won't STOP with those things!!

My kid's too old for those, but there was a bracelet fad back in the day, bracelets of beads, each bracelet a different color that stood for something - luck, love, whatever. There were hundreds of 'em Can't recall what they called those bracelets . . ..

252 Political Atheist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:18:06am

re: #246 reine.de.tout

And . . .
Didn't Egypt gas the tunnels and kill a bunch of people?

IMO-The Pali's lied about that too. I very much doubt Egypt gassed them. Now Co2 or mine gases may have killed them as in a normal tunneling accident.

253 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:18:10am

re: #250 dugmartsch

Not you.

Well, since you quoted me, it's what it looked like.

254 Political Atheist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:19:04am

I suggest a name for the Pali flotilla.
Ships of Fools.

255 webevintage  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:19:06am

I can't decide if this is good for Israel or bad.
[Link: www.weeklystandard.com...]
We can only hope the Obama Administration does not join the anti-Israel chorus in the aftermath of this staged confrontation. Please, Mr. President, we need to let Israelis know we stand with them in their fight against terrorists and those who arm and support them. America and her ally, Israel, stand by waiting for your response.

256 theheat  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:19:11am

re: #244 okonkolo

...'cept the fine print says only park animals can carry guns..
//

257 dugmartsch  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:19:36am

re: #164 reine.de.tout

And downding for calling me obtuse when I'm basically saying the same thing you've said.
idiot.

You might have realized that I was piggybacking on your comment rather than talking you if you weren't eerily obtuse yourself.

258 webevintage  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:20:37am

re: #256 theheat

...'cept the fine print says only park animals can carry guns..
//

Well every good American knows that Obama wants to arm the deer and take away the hunter's gun so he can't feed his family like Palin does.
/

259 researchok  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:20:37am

re: #237 Fozzie Bear

The assumption underlying this statement is that Hamas (or any other organization) has the ability to put an end to terrorism. They could certainly recognize Israel's right to exist, and indeed should, but it's naive to assume that Hamas could stop terrorism emanating from within Palestine, even if they wanted to.

It goes a little deeper, culturally speaking, than anything any organization could put a stop to.

That institutionalized racism, bigotry and hate are not Israel's doing. That is something the Palestinians will have to fix prior to any kind of warm peace.

260 darthstar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:21:01am

re: #254 Rightwingconspirator

I suggest a name for the Pali flotilla.
Ships of Fools.

Please no...that's a great Grateful Dead song.

261 wrenchwench  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:21:35am

re: #257 dugmartsch

You might have realized that I was piggybacking on your comment rather than talking you if you weren't eerily obtuse yourself.


I read it the same way Reine did. I don't consider myself obtuse, eerily or otherwise.

You may need an editor.

262 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:22:03am

re: #248 Fozzie Bear

... which definitely does imply that.

meh. it's far more inventive to read that statement absolutely than generally.

we all need a little wiggle room in the pursuit of pithy...

(i don't think it's meant to be a noun, but i'm charging ahead with it anyway)

263 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:22:35am

re: #240 manticore

Building in jewish neighborhoods in north or south jerusalem is not building in settlements, and the Bush administration never did or would have made such a controversy of such.

So you do understand that the Bush administration called for settlement freeze repeatedly? That when he visited Israel, he was critical of expansion at Ma'aleh Adumim?

264 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:22:41am

re: #260 darthstar

Please no...that's a great Grateful Dead song.

About the Nixon administration, or so I've been told....

265 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:22:48am

re: #261 wrenchwench

I read it the same way Reine did. I don't consider myself obtuse, eerily or otherwise.

You may need an editor.

yep. and a small pill. or less coffee. or both.

266 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:23:28am

re: #242 prairiefire

Hi, SFZ. is school out for you? We are bouncing around in euphoria around our house. : )
Are your kids obsessed with Silly Bands, or did you already go through that fad? I've found the West Coast is about 18 months ahead of us with fads.

We're doing finals this week.

I've had no Silly Bands problem, but I teach high school. People I know who teach lower grades are going nuts!

267 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:23:49am

re: #240 manticore

Building in jewish neighborhoods in north or south jerusalem is not building in settlements, and the Bush administration never did or would have made such a controversy of such.

i don't believe that's true. i think GWB objected to just such a thing...IIRC...

268 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:24:07am

re: #244 okonkolo

Well, clearly when Obama signed the law allowing citizens to carry guns in National Parks, that was just the first step in...uh, give me a minute...

Herding all the gun owners into the national parks, and making them reservations.

269 theheat  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:25:07am

re: #258 webevintage

and hunt from black helicopters...
//

270 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:25:27am

re: #241 SanFranciscoZionist

There was also embezzlement IIRC.
If Acorn's transgressions were so minor, then why on earth did Obama not defend them as they were being taken down by the evil Congress? Not even a peep.

271 darthstar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:26:32am

re: #264 jamesfirecat

About the Nixon administration, or so I've been told...

Nothing about Nixon on the annotated Grateful Dead lyrics site...but as it was first performed in 1974, I suppose it's possible.

[Link: artsites.ucsc.edu...]

272 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:26:46am

re: #270 Spare O'Lake

There was also embezzlement IIRC.
If Acorn's transgressions were so minor, then why on earth did Obama not defend them as they were being taken down by the evil Congress? Not even a peep.

Because congress jumped the gun on this one and started attack ACORN before we knew anything, Obama wasn't in a position to offer any sort of meaningful support and it would have been wrong of him to do so when he didn't have any facts to back it up.

273 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:27:42am

re: #270 Spare O'Lake

There was also embezzlement IIRC.
If Acorn's transgressions were so minor, then why on earth did Obama not defend them as they were being taken down by the evil Congress? Not even a peep.

DUDE

274 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:27:47am

re: #262 Aceofwhat?

meh. it's far more inventive to read that statement absolutely than generally.

we all need a little wiggle room in the pursuit of pithy...

(i don't think it's meant to be a noun, but i'm charging ahead with it anyway)

I think "pursuit of pith" is valid grammatically.

My larger point is that Hamas is the result of the culture there, not the other way around. Statements that Hamas should just "fix the problem" is missing the point. Hamas was elected into power by a base that agrees with them. As such, they can't stop it, they don't want to, and they exist because the people that support them don't want them to make peace.

Now, assuming just killing all the Palestinians is off the table, the problem becomes a political one. The problem isn't the head, it's the body that supports it.

275 darthstar  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:27:56am

re: #270 Spare O'Lake

There was also embezzlement IIRC.
If Acorn's transgressions were so minor, then why on earth did Obama not defend them as they were being taken down by the evil Congress? Not even a peep.

The outrageous outrage was so vile it was political suicide to defend them. Personally, I'd like to see ACORN return...they did good work.

276 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:28:18am

re: #268 SanFranciscoZionist

Herding all the gun owners into the national parks, and making them reservations.

Shit. Lemme bring my tent and my fishing gear, and I'll be the first in line for that 're-education' camp.

/Will we get have to make lanyards?

277 Slap  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:29:02am

re: #257 dugmartsch

Could you possibly pick a less-appropriate target for this? Dear dog, man, Reine's posts are always among the most direct, humble, thoughtful, reasoned and gracious I see here on LGF.

If you find a way to irritate HER, you're doing something BIG-TIME WRONG.

Have a cookie. Relax. Re-focus.

And pick your targets better.

278 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:29:08am

re: #274 Fozzie Bear

I think "pursuit of pith" is valid grammatically.

My larger point is that Hamas is the result of the culture there, not the other way around. Statements that Hamas should just "fix the problem" is missing the point. Hamas was elected into power by a base that agrees with them. As such, they can't stop it, they don't want to, and they exist because the people that support them don't want them to make peace.

Now, assuming just killing all the Palestinians is off the table, the problem becomes a political one. The problem isn't the head, it's the body that supports it.

Ok. Then we should lay blame at the entire body, which would like nothing more than to wipe Israel off of the map.

I'm fine with that position...

279 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:29:46am

re: #278 Aceofwhat?

Ok. Then we should lay blame at the entire body, which would like nothing more than to wipe Israel off of the map.

I'm fine with that position...

And yet, genocide isn't a valid approach.

So... what now?

280 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:30:04am

WOW Federer lost to Soderling in 4 sets.

Huge upset.

281 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:30:12am

re: #272 jamesfirecat

Because congress jumped the gun on this one and started attack ACORN before we knew anything, Obama wasn't in a position to offer any sort of meaningful support and it would have been wrong of him to do so when he didn't have any facts to back it up.

Bah. Maybe he could have at the very least urged Congress not to act precipitously?

282 Reginald Perrin  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:30:30am

re: #257 dugmartsch

You might have realized that I was piggybacking on your comment rather than talking you if you weren't eerily obtuse yourself.

Downding for being a prick about it. Man up and admit your original comment wasn't well written and appeared to be knocking reine.de.tout, not "piggybacking" her comment.

283 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:31:15am

re: #273 Aceofwhat?

DUDE

BABE

284 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:32:11am

re: #270 Spare O'Lake

There was also embezzlement IIRC.
If Acorn's transgressions were so minor, then why on earth did Obama not defend them as they were being taken down by the evil Congress? Not even a peep.

Yes, there was also embezzlement going on within the organization, which is a much better reason to defund a group than pretend voter fraud, or edited videos. As to why Obama didn't defend them, I don't know. He may have thought they were an embarassment, or that it wasn't his business to tell Congress what to do, or he may not have cared much. I suspect, also, that he could see the the attack on ACORN was aimed at him, and that if he got tangled in it, things would get progressively crazier.

I'm not a big ACORN booster, so if you're expecting me to say much in their favor, you may be disappointed. But the passionate belief in their primal evil and enormous influence that I still see from many people is ridiculous, and your recent concern with 'why did Obama throw them under the bus' seems a little strained to me. If they were so evil, why should he not?

285 blueraven  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:32:41am

re: #180 tradewind

Well, we hope. After the way he treated Netanyahu, I wasn't so sure.

What about the way Biden was treated? And what actual evidence do you have that Obama mistreated Netanyahu? There are different accounts of what really happened back in March, and as far as I know, you were not there.

I am pretty damn sick of the same people always taking sides against our own President, and posing that Netanyahu can do no wrong. Rather un-American in my opinion.

286 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:33:20am

re: #119 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

What does Ator the Fighting Eagle have to do with the census?

Oops, wrong O'Keefe.

UP DING!

Now, Ator the Blademaster, that was a cinematic achievement.

287 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:34:32am

re: #279 Fozzie Bear

And yet, genocide isn't a valid approach.

So... what now?

Step 1: make the rest of the world acknowledge who is, in general, the asshole in the room. If Palestine weren't so propped-up, they might give up this war crap really quickly.

Why is Israel the most-sanctioned country in UN history? Boggles the mind...can you imagine if Mexico occasionally lobbed rockets over the border? We'd own them faster than you can say "what Arizona immigration law?"

heh.

288 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:34:36am

re: #275 darthstar

The outrageous outrage was so vile it was political suicide to defend them. Personally, I'd like to see ACORN return...they did good work.

Bullshit. Obama was the POTUS and he could have helped them. But he was all too willing to stand silently by in order to avoid expending any political capital.

289 Political Atheist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:34:56am

Submitted for discussion...

But as with the Obama administration's joining the anti-Israel resolution at the United Nations on Friday, followed by after-the-fact explanations that Israel had nothing to fear, so the Obama administration is now being drawn into another anti-Israel action, again cushioned by assurances that, "This is for your own good."

Monday morning, ABC'S Jake Tapper reported an unnamed administration official promising "no daylight" between the United States and Israel.

But the same administration official who promised "no daylight" also told Tapper: "The president has always said that it will be much easier for Israel to make peace if it feels secure." Meaning: first we soothe you, then we squeeze you?

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of David Frum.

290 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:35:20am

re: #281 Spare O'Lake

Bah. Maybe he could have at the very least urged Congress not to act precipitously?

Why should he have, except that ACORN's attackers really, really wanted him to?

291 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:35:33am

re: #283 Spare O'Lake

BABE

well...i am fabulous on the eyes, but i'm also a dude.

no harm done, though...

292 Slap  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:36:20am

re: #291 Aceofwhat?

I'm thinkin' that was a Dennis Miller thingy....

293 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:37:16am

re: #292 Slap

I'm thinkin' that was a Dennis Miller thingy...

oh, so not a compliment?

damn.

294 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:38:10am

re: #290 SanFranciscoZionist

Why should he have, except that ACORN's attackers really, really wanted him to?

He's very concerned. You know, about everything. ;-)

295 What, me worry?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:39:02am

re: #263 SanFranciscoZionist

So you do understand that the Bush administration called for settlement freeze repeatedly? That when he visited Israel, he was critical of expansion at Ma'aleh Adumim?

I was reading a lot of Nate Sharansky last night because when it comes to peace and freedom, I think Sharansky is the #1 go-to guy.

He loved that both Reagan and Bush called out rogue regimes/dictatorships. Sharansky says this:

When we are unwilling to draw clear moral lines between free societies and fear societies, when we are unwilling to call the former good and the latter evil, we will not be able to advance the cause of peace because peace cannot be disconnected from freedom.

I was lamenting on this last night also.

I am no fan of neither Reagan nor Bush. I'm a huge fan of Nate Sharansky so I had to think a lot about what he said there.

[if] we are unwilling to call the former good and the latter evil, we will not be able to advance the cause of peace.

Reagan called the Soviet Union "the evil empire". Bush referred to "Islamists" and "Jihadists" as evil. He pointed to an Axis of Evil. Sharansky says this about societies based on fear:

When Ronald Reagan called the USSR an evil empire he was fiercely criticized by many in the West who saw him as a dangerous warmonger. But when we in the Gulag heard of Reagan’s statement, we were ecstatic. We knew that once there was no moral confusion between the two types of societies, once good and evil were kept separate, the Soviet Union’s days were numbered. Soon, the most fearsome totalitarian empire in human history collapsed without a shot being fired and the cause of peace and security was advanced. I have no doubt that moral clarity will have the same effect today and equally serve the cause of peace, stability and security around the world.

Sharansky believes that FREE societies should never tolerate FEAR-based societies and to whittle away at them, you have to start by calling them out.

Israel will not have peace as long as her neighbors are not free. It's not possible and the only help outsiders can give is to condemn the actions of dictators, strongly, with no uncertain terms.

*Natan Sharansky is a former soviet political prisoner and dissident who spent 13 years in the Siberian Gulag for trumped up charges, but basically he was defending Judaism (called "refuseniks"). Much of his time in prison was in solitary confinement.

296 Slap  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:39:30am

re: #293 Aceofwhat?

Ah, I can't confirm or deny that conclusion.

297 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:40:46am

re: #288 Spare O'Lake

Bullshit. Obama was the POTUS and he could have helped them. But he was all too willing to stand silently by in order to avoid expending any political capital.

But that was the whole point, wasn't it? Denounce ACORN, and then wait for Obama to come to their aid?

Didn't work.

298 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:41:36am

re: #284 SanFranciscoZionist

Yes, there was also embezzlement going on within the organization, which is a much better reason to defund a group than pretend voter fraud, or edited videos. As to why Obama didn't defend them, I don't know. He may have thought they were an embarassment, or that it wasn't his business to tell Congress what to do, or he may not have cared much. I suspect, also, that he could see the the attack on ACORN was aimed at him, and that if he got tangled in it, things would get progressively crazier.

I'm not a big ACORN booster, so if you're expecting me to say much in their favor, you may be disappointed. But the passionate belief in their primal evil and enormous influence that I still see from many people is ridiculous, and your recent concern with 'why did Obama throw them under the bus' seems a little strained to me. If they were so evil, why should he not?

Obama has always been the real issue. He used Acorn and then he tossed them under the bus like an empty beer can. Just look under the bus for all the other examples. That has always been his style and that's why I don't trust him to defend Israel for even one minute longer than he believes it suits his political fortunes to do so.

299 Cineaste  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:42:10am

re: #71 tradewind

No worries.. the Pals have friends in DC.

... Rep. Cynthia McKinney

FYI - Cynthia McKinney hasn't been in Congress since 2007. (and she's a nutjob)

300 Bob Levin  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:42:39am

I think one of the issues here is--what do we actually see when we look at diplomatic actions? One thing is certain, what you see is what the diplomats want you to see, just like magicians. The only content in modern diplomacy is how any action affects international trade. The days of secret treaties are over.

Even if the US signed on to the NPT, it doesn't have any effect, as is the case with everything that comes from the UN. And it's very possible, likely I would say, that many of the signatories on this have some type of trade agreement with Israel, because Israel produces so much vital technology. Even if Israel has to set up dummy companies and label their merchandise as coming from the Canary Islands, that's part of the game. The present diplomatic rules are determined by who controls most of the oil market. No shock there.

Until a new type of car is developed, as soon as new ways to power one single house become common, and eventually, when the creation of biodegradable nanomaterials replace plastic, then the world has to play this dog and pony show to placate OPEC.

Unfortunately, there is a terrible antisemitism that goes along with OPEC--and as things stand right now, with the technology and understanding of the world that we have--we don't have the tools to deal with it properly. This is where the tears should be shed, and this is where creative thinking and the scientific breakthroughs, with accompanying wisdom and understanding of consciousness, most need to be applied.

All Presidents must deal with the State Department, which has historically been very sensitive to the feelings of oil producers. Some Presidents go along with them more than others. George Bush directly challenged them after 9/11. Less so, during his second term, and even less so as Armitage hung him out to dry. Understandably, President Obama is much less inclined to challenge State, even if he wanted to do so.

I think any President would be doing what Obama is doing. If it seems as if McCain would have been different, McCain would be embroiled in a huge scandal right now, not necessarily of his making. McCain would be a weakened President at this point. That's just the way of world right now.

Israel can never win these PR battles, and that's because it's easier and much faster to generate the PR you want than to carefully investigate the truth. This is also something we have to live with.

Israel has survived, the Jewish people have survived, because when backed into a corner, we find ways to expand the corner and find more of the building, much to the dismay of the thugs.

301 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:42:54am

re: #291 Aceofwhat?

well...i am fabulous on the eyes, but i'm also a dude.

no harm done, though...

Sorry, but it's my standard defence whenever I get duded.

302 Cineaste  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:43:54am

re: #89 Charles

Admitted felon James O'Keefe is back at it again, with another "undercover" video this time targeting the census.

part of his court-ordered "public service" he would argue...

/

303 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:43:58am

re: #295 marjoriemoon

lovely post, lady. just lovely.

304 JeffM70  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:44:10am

Why is the U.S. always so quick to defend Israel and why is Europe always so quick to criticize it? It's rather tiresome and counter-productive.

305 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:44:30am

re: #297 SanFranciscoZionist

But that was the whole point, wasn't it? Denounce ACORN, and then wait for Obama to come to their aid?

Didn't work.

Right, because he's too CLEVER to defend his loyal supporters. Just ask Van Jones if you don't believe me.

306 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:45:12am

re: #301 Spare O'Lake

Sorry, but it's my standard defence whenever I get duded.

Ace is a duder. He duded me earlier, dude.

307 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:46:30am

re: #296 Slap

Ah, I can't confirm or deny that conclusion.

my stance is that everything is a compliment unless expressly shown to be otherwise, for two primary reasons:

1. it helps to sustain my already-inflated opinion of my overall awesomeness
2. people who assume the converse, i.e. that everything is an insult unless proven otherwise, make me want to fling myself into oncoming traffic.

308 Cineaste  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:46:31am

re: #94 The Shadow Do

Right up there with "Ladies and gentlemen, we are 30 minutes out from the airport unfortunately we will be on the ground in 20 minutes"

and "flight attendant! Bring the bar cart"

poor taste. You are starting to turn a major tragedy involving the death of over a hundred people, including the elected president and senior leadership of a country that has been a great ally of ours. I don't think it's appropriate to be making these jokes about this incident at all. It's ghoulish.

309 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:46:55am

re: #298 Spare O'Lake

Obama has always been the real issue. He used Acorn and then he tossed them under the bus like an empty beer can. Just look under the bus for all the other examples. That has always been his style and that's why I don't trust him to defend Israel for even one minute longer than he believes it suits his political fortunes to do so.

I completely disagree with your assessment of the man, so there it is. But I will ask, when is it ever going to NOT suit the political fortunes of the President of the United States to defend Israel, exactly?

310 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:47:41am

re: #308 Cineaste

poor taste. You are starting to turn a major tragedy involving the death of over a hundred people, including the elected president and senior leadership of a country that has been a great ally of ours. I don't think it's appropriate to be making these jokes about this incident at all. It's ghoulish.

You know what's ghoulish? The living dead.

You know what isn't? Dark humor. Lighten up.

311 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:47:42am

re: #298 Spare O'Lake

Obama has always been the real issue. He used Acorn and then he tossed them under the bus like an empty beer can. Just look under the bus for all the other examples. That has always been his style and that's why I don't trust him to defend Israel for even one minute longer than he believes it suits his political fortunes to do so.

How did Obama "use" ACORN just so that we're clear....

312 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:48:26am

re: #301 Spare O'Lake

Sorry, but it's my standard defence whenever I get duded.

it was the least aggressive thing i could say in place of "you're getting intellectually curb-stomped in this masquerade of a debate, and the blood is splashing on my psychological Armani, so tap out already because this is fugly stuff."

oops, i said it.

313 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:48:41am

re: #305 Spare O'Lake

Right, because he's too CLEVER to defend his loyal supporters. Just ask Van Jones if you don't believe me.

Sorry, but not everyone connected to Obama's administration is someone of great importance to him. Sometimes politicians let people go rather than lose unimportant battles.

What exactly makes ACORN 'loyal supporters' of Obama's?

314 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:48:48am

re: #306 Fozzie Bear

Ace is a duder. He duded me earlier, dude.

Roger that, babe.

315 What, me worry?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:49:32am

re: #303 Aceofwhat?

lovely post, lady. just lovely.

Why thank you, kind sir!

316 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:49:33am

re: #314 Spare O'Lake

Roger that, babe.

And now the circle is complete.

317 manticore  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:50:03am

re: #263 SanFranciscoZionist

I stand corrected. you are right. the bush administration did call building in Ma'aleh Adumim 'provacative'. But my larger point that you can't compare the support that the Bush administration had for Israel, probably the best friend Israel ever had in the White House, to the Obama adminstration. Of course its only been alittle over a year into the Obama administration and we will see what happens. But I certainly felt much more comfortable with Bush ini the White house viz-a-vie Israel.

318 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:50:13am

re: #304 JeffM70

Why is the U.S. always so quick to defend Israel and why is Europe always so quick to criticize it? It's rather tiresome and counter-productive.

wrong question.

better question: what do the facts indicate?

answer: found on this and prior threads.

319 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:52:09am

re: #312 Aceofwhat?

it was the least aggressive thing i could say in place of "you're getting intellectually curb-stomped in this masquerade of a debate, and the blood is splashing on my psychological Armani, so tap out already because this is fugly stuff."

oops, i said it.

Heh. It's a mere flesh wound!

320 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:52:18am

re: #316 Fozzie Bear

And now the circle is complete.

but remember, no jerking in the champagne room.

too far?

321 What, me worry?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:52:49am

re: #303 Aceofwhat?

lovely post, lady. just lovely.

You should read Sharansky. His life story is amazing.

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

Fear No Evil is his biography. He was in the Knesset, but resigned last year. He's very active in all matters of anti-Semitism.

322 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:55:00am

re: #321 marjoriemoon

You should read Sharansky. His life story is amazing.

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

Fear No Evil is his biography. He was in the Knesset, but resigned last year. He's very active in all matters of anti-Semitism.

i know of him, have for a while, and have read a lot of excerpts, although i haven't read the whole book. i'm definitely a fan.

323 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:55:16am

re: #317 manticore

I stand corrected. you are right. the bush administration did call building in Ma'aleh Adumim 'provacative'. But my larger point that you can't compare the support that the Bush administration had for Israel, probably the best friend Israel ever had in the White House, to the Obama adminstration. Of course its only been alittle over a year into the Obama administration and we will see what happens. But I certainly felt much more comfortable with Bush ini the White house viz-a-vie Israel.

My point is that you can't defend the assertion that Bush was a great good friend of Israel, and Obama is not. It's all about 'feel', which mostly seems to boil down to how much personal trust you have for each politician. The actual facts seem to suggest they take a similar policy line.

324 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:55:36am

re: #313 SanFranciscoZionist

Sorry, but not everyone connected to Obama's administration is someone of great importance to him. Sometimes politicians let people go rather than lose unimportant battles.

What exactly makes ACORN 'loyal supporters' of Obama's?

You know.
Sorry, gotta run.
Later.

325 Cineaste  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:56:12am

re: #310 Fozzie Bear

You know what's ghoulish? The living dead.

You know what isn't? Dark humor. Lighten up.

There's dark humor and there's laughing at the death of the Polish president. You can make jokes about it but I think it's a tragedy and on these forums we often criticize people who mock people's deaths.

326 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:56:18am

re: #324 Spare O'Lake

You know.
Sorry, gotta run.
Later.

Yeah, I think I do know.

327 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:57:42am

re: #324 Spare O'Lake

You know.
Sorry, gotta run.
Later.

I declare SFZ the winner by TKO. Have a great day, and please no more ACORN for the foreseeable future...

328 What, me worry?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:59:18am

re: #322 Aceofwhat?

i know of him, have for a while, and have read a lot of excerpts, although i haven't read the whole book. i'm definitely a fan.

There was an Israeli tour, I think I found it through Jewlicious but I don't remember. On the tour, you spend a day with Sharansky. I tell ya, I really REALLY wanted to go. I have major hero worship for him.

329 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 12:01:33pm

re: #328 marjoriemoon

There was an Israeli tour, I think I found it through Jewlicious but I don't remember. On the tour, you spend a day with Sharansky. I tell ya, I really REALLY wanted to go. I have major hero worship for him.

there's hope for you after all;)

330 PaxAmericana  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 12:09:03pm

Good! It's nice to see this country, and this administration, stand up for what is right.

331 celticdragon  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 12:11:55pm

I know I am going against the general mood here, but I think Israel blundered badly on this one. Turkey is beyond pissed off, and they are actually threatening military reprisals.

Seriously.

A shocked world has responded with outrage. Turkey recalled its ambassador to Israel and warned of unprecedented and incalculable reprisals.

Two Turkish activists were reported to be among those killed in the flotilla. Ankara warned that further supply vessels will be sent to Gaza, escorted by the Turkish Navy, a development with unpredictable consequences.

[Link: ibnlive.in.com...]

Does Israel really want a shooting war with Turkey? Really? Don't they have enough fucking trouble without that?

There's more:

Turkey called an emergency meeting of NATO today and may invoke the NATO charter of self defense...

More...


Holy Sweet Lord, Turkey has announced they will send another flotilla to Gaza—escorted by the Turkish Navy!

If they actually do this, it is the very definition of throwing down.

Wow.

Does Israel want a war with Turkey? They can’t win it, short of using nukes, and Turkey is a NATO member, if Israel attacks NATO ships, Turkey can invoke Article V (in fact, they can invoke it already, since the ships were attacked by a non NATO power on the high seas.) If Turkey does so, of course NATO nations will refuse, but doing so will break NATO.

This is high stakes.


Update: I might add that in the case of a war between Turkey and Israel, if Turkey is serious, unless Israel uses nukes, my money is on the Turks. They have a huge armored corp, and the nations between Israel and Turkey aren’t going to say no if Turkey asks for access (because if they do, Turkey will just roll right through them.) Also if Turkey and Israel goes to war, it’s at least 50/50 the Egypt jumps in as well.

Israel is really playing with fire on this one.


Bad stuff, fellow lizards.

332 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 12:15:46pm

re: #331 celticdragon

And I think, based on past history, everyone knew exactly what Israel's defensive response would be and in fact, counted on it, in order to provoke and "justify" these reactions.

333 celticdragon  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 12:21:35pm

re: #332 reine.de.tout

And I think, based on past history, everyone knew exactly what Israel's defensive response would be and in fact, counted on it, in order to provoke and "justify" these reactions.

Then it was beyond stupid for the Israelis to have played along, no?

If your opponent is telling people that you are a criminal and you beat people with a club, then it is not particularly smart to actually look like a criminal who beats people with a club.

They accomplished nothing in their raid but to sabotage any chance we had of getting action on Iran, while weakening the secular generals in Turkey and strengthening the Islamists.

This actually starts looking like Wile E. Coyote "Super Genius" stuff here.

334 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 12:22:22pm

re: #331 celticdragon

I know I am going against the general mood here, but I think Israel blundered badly on this one. Turkey is beyond pissed off, and they are actually threatening military reprisals.

Seriously.


Bad stuff, fellow lizards.

No downding, but what else was Israel to do? To allow the blockade to be violated on such a scale would be to render it nonexistent, weapons shipments would have followed.

As for the Turkish Navy, that is a real problem if it happens. I did some research yesterday and the numbers are very bad: The Turks have an advantage in capable surface combatants of 3-1, and a 2-1 advantage in subs. Israel does have a large and capable Air Force, but it would have to adopt a 'shoot first' policy (which likely won't happen) in order to be fully effective. Trying conclusions with the Turkish Navy simply ship-to-ship would see Israel defeated.

335 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 12:25:22pm

re: #331 celticdragon


Plenty of Israelis are questioning whether this was wise. However, AFAIK, they're doing so without any question of whether they were RIGHT.

If turkey really was sponsoring a blockade run, Israel should have called them out in public and let them try to justify THEIR act of war.

I think there's room here to debate whether this was wise, but there isn't much room for debate on whether Israel is right. Spades are spades here at LGF...

336 celticdragon  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 12:31:01pm

re: #334 Dark_Falcon

No downding, but what else was Israel to do? To allow the blockade to be violated on such a scale would be to render it nonexistent, weapons shipments would have followed.

As for the Turkish Navy, that is a real problem if it happens. I did some research yesterday and the numbers are very bad: The Turks have an advantage in capable surface combatants of 3-1, and a 2-1 advantage in subs. Israel does have a large and capable Air Force, but it would have to adopt a 'shoot first' policy (which likely won't happen) in order to be fully effective. Trying conclusions with the Turkish Navy simply ship-to-ship would see Israel defeated.

Good question. Somebody on another thread suggested that when all your choices look bad, then you may need to rethink your initial assumptions.

Ido tend to think that an inspection which did not involve troops rappelling in from helicopters may have been a better approach.

337 celticdragon  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 12:33:26pm

And yes...in a naval action, Israel is badly outgunned by Turkey. Israel would have to commit all her airforce or go nuclear.

She needs to find another option. Public opinion in Turkey will not allow their military to blink on this one.

338 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 12:33:53pm

re: #336 celticdragon

I do tend to think that an inspection which did not involve troops rappelling in from helicopters may have been a better approach.

I agree with this sentiment. Of course, it's a sort of "rock, meet hard place" kind of situation.

339 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 12:38:40pm

re: #336 celticdragon

Good question. Somebody on another thread suggested that when all your choices look bad, then you may need to rethink your initial assumptions.

Ido tend to think that an inspection which did not involve troops rappelling in from helicopters may have been a better approach.

The problem is there weren't many other options. It's very tough to board a ship with a large number of people that do not want to be boarded. If Israel had sent small boats, the ship could have zigzagged and used fire hoses to keep them away. Helo rappelling was actually once of the few options that did not involve shooting first (though the weapons used could have been less-than-lethal) to clear a space for the boarding party.

340 ~Fianna  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 12:46:34pm

re: #137 reine.de.tout

I believe those voter registration cards are supposed to be checked out by local registrars of voters before being added to the voter rolls.

Now, this sort of stuff made a lot of perhaps unnecesary work for registrars' offices. But I don't recall that those "voters" were actually added to the rolls and had people voting under those names.

They are.

I've run registration drives before. I think I've already posted it, but here's how it works.

You go down the the county registrar's office and you sign out bulk lots of blank forms. Those lots are serialized and the range that you get is recorded by someone at the office and you are then responsible for those forms.

How I did it: every morning, I'd give our field people 25 or so forms. I'd record the serial numbers of the forms and who I gave them to. Every night they'd check those back in with me.

I'd then record the numbers and the information off the forms so that we could track them and I'd take them all down to the county so that the registrar's office could do their registration thing.

Here, you have to give back ALL the forms you check out (with a certain amount of tolerance) or they will stop giving them to you.

You also have to turn in any forms that have been marked by a potential voter. This is to prevent the organization doing the registering from pre-selecting (for example, we don't register Republicans, so throw that one out).

The registrar of voters is the only person empowered to make a call on whether or not an individual is qualified to vote. In my opinion, that's a good thing. You don't want to give that power to an issue advocacy group or political campaign.

People who are suspected of committing fraud should be fired, but those forms HAVE TO BE TURNED IN BY LAW.

Acorn is mostly guilty of being run by activist kids who don't have a clue how to manage a large project. It's the same in just about any other registration drive.

341 ~Fianna  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 12:47:21pm

re: #229 Spare O'Lake

Whine and pretend all YOU like...voter registration fraud is very, very bad.

Read my response and then let's talk about it.

342 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 12:57:07pm

re: #341 ~Fianna

Read my response and then let's talk about it.

I just read your #340. OK, let's talk...except you're not here!

343 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 12:59:54pm

re: #342 Spare O'Lake

I just read your #340. OK, let's talk...except you're not here!

And you have nothing to say.

344 ~Fianna  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 1:00:14pm

re: #342 Spare O'Lake

I just read your #340. OK, let's talk...except you're not here!

I am. I was just in another window. :)

It's one of those issues that are really complicated.

What should be done by someone in my position? Make a guess that the voter isn't legitimate? Or turn the form in?

345 richard12  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 1:55:34pm

THink you might be an Israel supporter? Its time to take a stand. If you really believe those thugs you saw attacking Israeli soldiers were peace activitsts, then ignore this post. Otherwise, click on the link to read a blog post on this subject.

346 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 1:57:37pm

re: #345 richard12

Or I can just ignore that post and still be an Israel supporter.

The mind boggles.

347 Hanoch  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 2:01:06pm

According to the Jerusalem Post, included in the "humanitarian aid" being delivered to the Arabs, "the military also discovered a cache of bulletproof vests, night-vision goggles as well as gas masks."

The article also notes that a "group of over 50 passengers with possible terror connections have refused to identify themselves and were not carrying passports. Many of them were however carrying envelopes packed with thousands of dollars in cash."

348 tradewind  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 2:20:29pm

re: #187 jamesfirecat
Good luck with that./

349 tradewind  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 2:27:18pm

re: #238 abolitionist
A classic case of feeding the hand that bit you.

350 tradewind  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 2:29:15pm

re: #186 Charles
In retrospect probably not much... but I can't imagine that any pressure exerted by a UN commission would be able to affect or change laws against criticizing religion in a country that had presumed to pass them.

351 Varek Raith  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 4:26:10pm

Jesus Christ ACORN.

352 Nekama  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:19:37pm

re: #6 Charles

Yes, you can count on it. This idea that the Obama administration is somehow more anti-Israel than previous administrations is simply false.

Did you happen to notice this administration's vote on the NPT last week? You don't see Israel as a major target?

How about Obama's extremely hostile behavior (including Hillary's infamous 41 minute excoriation of Netanyahu) toward Israel for merely building in Jerusalem, which has never been considered a "settlement". I thought that was the low water mark for Obama's humiliation of one of America's greatest allies, but this incident lowers the bar further.

Yes, Charles, Obama should have risked pissing the world off. Doing what's right, even when unpopular, is what real leaders do.

Susan Rice - the one who mused about taking military action against Israel, making her Obama's choice for UN Ambassador - sat this one out and left it to her deputy to defend Israel against the lynch mob.

Now would have been a great moment to stand up to Turkey, point out their complicity and demand an explanation for provoking this entire mess. As you point out there was nothing on board those ships that was needed. It was a complete stunt to embarrass our strongest ally in that region and Obama failed miserably at pointing out who was really responsible.

Hillary, Obama's secretary of state, made matters even worse by repeating "The situation is Gaza is unsustainable and unacceptable" without pointing out that it is Hamas, and their intransigence, NOT Israel, that is exclusively responsible for that situation.

Charles, with Obama's dithering on Iran, the NPT, and failure to exercise real leadership in this situation, Obama is allowing Israel to remain bloodied and on the ropes while the world piles on.

353 Nekama  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 8:29:19pm

re: #16 Charles

Right, because he should have just alienated everyone in the entire world, right?

What a lame excuse for not doing the right thing!

Because "everyone in the entire world" wants to demonize Israel for doing exactly what any sovereign nation would do when protecting it's borders (what a novel concept, Obama!) that makes it just fine for Barry to refuse to stand tall?

Israel, and the rest of the free, civilized world needs America to exercise real leadership in the face of increasingly bold provocation.

If America won't - or can't - stand up to the snakepit that is the United Nations today, then our slide toward European style impotency will continue to accelerate.

354 iceweasel  Tue, Jun 1, 2010 11:34:23pm

re: #353 Nekama

What a lame excuse for not doing the right thing!

Because "everyone in the entire world" wants to demonize Israel for doing exactly what any sovereign nation would do when protecting it's borders (what a novel concept, Obama!) that makes it just fine for Barry to refuse to stand tall?

Israel, and the rest of the free, civilized world needs America to exercise real leadership in the face of increasingly bold provocation.

If America won't - or can't - stand up to the snakepit that is the United Nations today, then our slide toward European style impotency will continue to accelerate.

Please elaborate on "European style impotency" and how we are "sliding toward it".
I am intrigued by your ideas and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

355 Helvetico  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 3:30:49am

Why support Israel? They've never come to the aid of our soldiers in the region, and they have no oil. They consume more than a billion dollars a year in foreign aid despite the fact that they're as wealthy as Portugal, if not wealthier. They are America's number one foreign policy headache, generating everything from the first OPEC oil embargo to legions of nutcase Islamic terrorists who use its existence (and our patronage) as a convenient excuse to attack us.

If the Israelis want to bulldoze Palestinian homes and build walls, there's not much we can do to stop them. They shouldn't, however, be using US tax dollars to do this, especially when those dollars could be better spent at home. Our dollars should support US citizens first, not foreigners.

356 iceweasel  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 3:36:23am

re: #355 Helvetico

Why support Israel? They've never come to the aid of our soldiers in the region, and they have no oil.

This is about where I knew you were a tool. I could also have stopped after your question mark though.

357 iceweasel  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 3:39:42am

Smells like Paul in here.

Old man smell and desperation. Even the young ones smell like old men. /

358 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 6:06:13am

re: #340 ~Fianna


...
Acorn is mostly guilty of being run by activist kids who don't have a clue how to manage a large project. It's the same in just about any other registration drive.

"Activist kids" sounds a lot to me like Dem tools.

359 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 6:08:53am

re: #343 Obdicut

And you have nothing to say.

When I have nothing to say I'll say it myself!
;D

360 Helvetico  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 6:58:17am

iceweasel: "This is about where I knew you were a tool. I could also have stopped after your question mark though."

So US tax dollars go to Israel because I'm a tool? Who knew foreign policy revolved around me? Really now, why is Israel America's biggest welfare case? Is there any other justification other than the strength of AIPAC?

361 Obdicut  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 10:25:04am

re: #352 Nekama

Actually 'real leaders' often do what's wrong, too. Ghengis Khan is probably the greatest leader ever, and he did a lot of stuff I'd call 'wrong', like democide.

Doing what's always right, no matter the consequences, is what fanatics who don't care about consequences do.

362 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 10:58:29am

re: #360 Helvetico

Just go away. I'm so sick of you morons with your Israeli Lobby fantasies.

All of the Jew-hating bastards who've been posting comments today are in Europe.

363 Spricio  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 5:45:44pm

re: #357 iceweasel

hahahaha

364 Nekama  Wed, Jun 2, 2010 7:06:32pm

re: #361 Obdicut

What exactly would be the "consequences" of defending Israel's actions while the rest of the world condemns her?

Is speaking up for what is right dangerous for America?


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