Oh, brother.
According to Newt Gingrich, we should refuse to let Muslims build mosques in America until they let us build “our” churches in Mecca. Sounds like a good solid Republican position — make the US more like Saudi Arabia! Yeah!
1 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:02:16pm |
And this is the sound of freedoms dying.
There was a time when we claimed moral superiority over the Saudis because no right thinking American would breath a word against freedom of religion.
| 2 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:03:26pm |
Ohhh and this would be exhibit Q in how the GOP has become anti-American, vile and anti-freedom to the core.
| 3 |
darthstar Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:03:33pm |
Somebody needs to give Gingrich a big ole cup of shut the fuck up.
| 4 |
Obdicut Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:03:45pm |
re: #1 LudwigVanQuixote
And the irony lost on fuckers like Gingrich:
The Wahabists hate a lot of other Muslims. They're fundamentalists. They hate any Western Muslim who fits into society. They hate the kind of Muslims that are building mosques in the US.
| 5 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:04:17pm |
re: #3 darthstar
Somebody needs to give Gingrich a big ole cup of shut the fuck up.
Somebody needs to get up and tell these fuckers that this is America and that we Americans love our liberties.
| 6 |
BryanS Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:07:31pm |
Of course Gingrich is correct that Saudi Arabia should allow religious freedom. Don't see what that has to do with building a mosque in the US.
| 7 |
Max Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:07:36pm |
Sounds like a good solid Republican position — make the US more like Saudi Arabia! Yeah!
I knew this new self-destroying right-wing talking point would become popular. The New Right loves stupidity and misplaced moral equivalence as much as the moonbat Left.
| 8 |
Max Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:09:12pm |
Remember when Fox News put those caveats "not all Muslims are terrorists" and "the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful?"
Where did that go? When did an Islamic community center become the equivalent of a Wahabbist terrorist-training mosque?
| 9 |
darthstar Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:10:04pm |
re: #8 Max D. Reinhardt
Remember when Fox News put those caveats "not all Muslims are terrorists" and "the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful?"
Where did that go? When did an Islamic community center become the equivalent of a Wahabbist terrorist-training mosque?
When we elected a black man for president and set off the dog whistles at Fox.
| 10 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:10:20pm |
re: #1 LudwigVanQuixote
And this is the sound of freedoms dying.
There was a time when we claimed moral superiority over the Saudis because no right thinking American would breath a word against freedom of religion.
That is still true. It's just that wrong-thinking Americans are on TV, acting like asses.
| 11 |
BryanS Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:11:39pm |
re: #7 Max D. Reinhardt
I knew this new self-destroying right-wing talking point would become popular. The New Right loves stupidity and misplaced moral equivalence as much as the moonbat Left.
Of course, Gingrich is considering 2012, so he has to brush up on his fundie cred.
| 12 |
Varek Raith Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:12:49pm |
No more Churches until the Vatican cleans itself up!
/Wingnut logic
| 13 |
Irenicum Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:14:07pm |
re: #9 darthstar
Yep. We didn't see this before then. The batshit crazy has only exploded since his election. And I'm not being sarcastic. I'm being deadly serious.
| 14 |
Max Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:14:29pm |
re: #11 BryanS
Of course, Gingrich is considering 2012, so he has to brush up on his fundie cred.
I don't think the Christian right ever considered Newt a loyal foot soldier. The James Dobson crowd was eager to oust him in the 1990s for not pushing anti-choice legislation. But, his new book denouncing Obama's "Secular, Socialist agenda" and his courting of Dominionists really reveal his canny nature.
| 15 |
freetoken Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:15:13pm |
Meanwhile, down in Texastan:
Arlington mosque reports vandalism, fire
On Friday, members of a south Arlington mosque found graffiti depicting Uncle Sam and Allah in a sexual position spray-painted in the parking lot.
About 1 a.m. Sunday, police and firefighters responded to a call about a fire that destroyed playground equipment at the mosque, the Dar El-Eman Islamic Education Center in the 5500 block of Mansfield Road.
So, two events of vandalism at one mosque. The culprit? Who knows, I suppose the Arlington investigators will someday get to the bottom of it.
| 16 |
Irenicum Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:15:42pm |
re: #9 darthstar
And the dog whistles have now been replaced by real dogs with some of these Christian jihadists. Disgusting evil morons.
| 17 |
BryanS Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:17:48pm |
re: #14 Max D. Reinhardt
I don't think the Christian right ever considered Newt a loyal foot soldier. The James Dobson crowd was eager to oust him in the 1990s for not pushing anti-choice legislation. But, his new book denouncing Obama's "Secular, Socialist agenda" and his courting of Dominionists really reveal his canny nature.
Yeah--the fundie crowd are not fans of Gingrich. He's got to disarm any resistance from that camp if he wants to run.
| 18 |
goddamnedfrank Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:18:31pm |
Newt, you clown, climb off your cross, we already have built our churches in Mecca, and they're goddamned delicious:
| 19 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:20:42pm |
Because the lesson of 9/11 was all about becoming more like the radical fundamentalists that carried out the attack.
///
| 20 |
Max Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:20:54pm |
re: #17 BryanS
I'm a registered Republican but I can't see myself voting for any of the "major front runners."
Gingrich: flip flopper, hypocrite, and anti-Muslim bigot
Palin: obvious
Huckabee: Rushdoony-style theocrat
| 21 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:21:50pm |
Imagine a volunteer army of Neo-Confederates, Teabags, Paulians and Palinites. We send them to Saudi Arabia with the mission of building a church in Mecca.
Both sets of savage, ignorant, deeply racist and supremacist people would get the chance to "communicate" with each other. Many really horrible people would find happiness and fulfillment getting the chance to kill for their own twisted and backwards vision of a hateful and intolerant God.
The only flaw is that should those people meet, they might realize how much they have in common and join forces in trying to destroy America, American liberties and Western rationalism.
| 22 |
theye1 Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:22:28pm |
Why would you build a Church in place, where the Christian populations effectively 0%? I would understand if there were some persecuted Christian Minority, but Mecca and Medina are some of least Christian places on earth.
I wonder when that Mosque and synagogue will open up in the Vatican city.
| 23 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:22:40pm |
re: #7 Max D. Reinhardt
I knew this new self-destroying right-wing talking point would become popular. The New Right loves stupidity and misplaced moral equivalence as much as the moonbat Left.
It's ridiculous. Hey, Newt! Saudi Arabia also won't permit women to drive. Let's refuse to give women driver's licenses until they shape up in SA!
| 24 |
BryanS Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:22:54pm |
re: #20 Max D. Reinhardt
I'm a registered Republican but I can't see myself voting for any of the "major front runners."
Gingrich: flip flopper, hypocrite, and anti-Muslim bigot
Palin: obvious
Huckabee: Rushdoony-style theocrat
add
Romney: phony
| 25 |
freetoken Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:23:28pm |
re: #20 Max D. Reinhardt
Huckabee: Rushdoony-style theocrat
There are some differences between Huckabee and the Rushdoonian world-view .... though it's sort of like the difference between Angus and Anatolian Black
| 26 |
Obdicut Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:24:43pm |
re: #15 freetoken
So, two events of vandalism at one mosque. The culprit? Who knows, I suppose the Arlington investigators will someday get to the bottom of it.
Playground equipment.
Fuckers.
| 27 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:24:59pm |
re: #24 BryanS
So basically, Romney is just a politician.
| 28 |
Max Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:26:42pm |
But, I could vote for Petraeus (he probably won't run) or Giuliani. They're sane and would conduct the War on Terror in an appropriate way and with the good cheer that we need from a war time leader.
| 29 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:26:44pm |
re: #8 Max D. Reinhardt
Remember when Fox News put those caveats "not all Muslims are terrorists" and "the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful?"
Where did that go? When did an Islamic community center become the equivalent of a Wahabbist terrorist-training mosque?
Anger and fear about Muslims has, counterintuitively, gone up rather than down, since 9/11.
And Fox has gone down the tubes.
| 30 |
BryanS Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:27:45pm |
re: #27 TheMatrix31
So basically, Romney is just a politician.
Yes. But he's as deft at the trade as Al Gore--and as believable as well. I see a lot of similarities between the two.
| 31 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:28:36pm |
re: #19 000G
Because the lesson of 9/11 was all about becoming more like the radical fundamentalists that carried out the attack.
///
That's exactly the message many people seem to have gotten. They truly believe that the warriors of international jihad are stronger and more committed than we, and only by matching them in savagery and blind faith will we prevail.
Somewhere, Voltaire is banging his head against a desk, while Benjamin Franklin tries to distract him with offers of babes and booze.
| 32 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:28:54pm |
re: #20 Max D. Reinhardt
I'm a registered Republican but I can't see myself voting for any of the "major front runners."
Gingrich: flip flopper, hypocrite, and anti-Muslim bigot
Palin: obvious
Huckabee: Rushdoony-style theocrat
There's time. Someone normal could show up!
| 33 |
BryanS Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:28:55pm |
re: #28 Max D. Reinhardt
But, I could vote for Petraeus (he probably won't run) or Giuliani. They're sane and would conduct the War on Terror in an appropriate way and with the good cheer that we need from a war time leader.
I like Giuliani as well and could vote for him. Though he does have is own crazy going on.
| 35 |
Max Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:29:07pm |
re: #29 SanFranciscoZionist
The afternoon FNC news shows don't even talk about real news. Today they where obsessed with that guy who shot a video of a gator feeding frenzy.
MSNBC had intelligent discussions about the SB 1070 decision.
Which one more qualifies as "news?"
| 36 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:29:35pm |
re: #21 LudwigVanQuixote
Imagine a volunteer army of Neo-Confederates, Teabags, Paulians and Palinites. We send them to Saudi Arabia with the mission of building a church in Mecca.
Both sets of savage, ignorant, deeply racist and supremacist people would get the chance to "communicate" with each other. Many really horrible people would find happiness and fulfillment getting the chance to kill for their own twisted and backwards vision of a hateful and intolerant God.
The only flaw is that should those people meet, they might realize how much they have in common and join forces in trying to destroy America, American liberties and Western rationalism.
So, sort of "Birth of A Nation" meets "Lawrence of Arabia" meets "Volunteers", meets "Saved"?
| 37 |
freetoken Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:29:44pm |
| 38 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:30:06pm |
re: #29 SanFranciscoZionist
Anger and fear about Muslims has, counterintuitively, gone up rather than down, since 9/11.
And Fox has gone down the tubes.
Why is this counter intuitive? Fox has been pimping that the president is a sekrit Muslim hell bent on bringing socialism to America and having angry black men eat white babies for two years.
Fear and paranoia when given the legitimacy of constant exposure only breeds this kind of response amongst the ignorant and predisposed to be hateful. This is the tiger by the tail that even Fox can not hold onto and that the GOP gave into months ago.
It is a self feeding cycle now.
Do you really think this process is so very different than what happened on Germany?
| 39 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:30:58pm |
re: #33 BryanS
I like Giuliani as well and could vote for him. Though he does have is own crazy going on.
Giuliani has no hope of the nomination, less than he did last time. (You probably know that already, I'm just saying.)
| 40 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:31:07pm |
re: #38 LudwigVanQuixote
Comparing ANYTHING today to what happened with Nazis, Hitler, Germany, or whatever is fucking ridiculous and offensive.
But keep at it.
| 41 |
Max Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:31:11pm |
re: #34 TheMatrix31
At this point, I can't see Romney pulling out a win, in the primary or the general election. I have a feeling that his state healthcare overhaul would be his "war vote", it would kill his campaign.
| 42 |
BryanS Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:31:22pm |
re: #38 LudwigVanQuixote
Why is this counter intuitive? Fox has been pimping that the president is a sekrit Muslim hell bent on bringing socialism to America and having angry black men eat white babies for two years.
Fear and paranoia when given the legitimacy of constant exposure only breeds this kind of response amongst the ignorant and predisposed to be hateful. This is the tiger by the tail that even Fox can not hold onto and that the GOP gave into months ago.
It is a self feeding cycle now.
Do you really think this process is so very different than what happened on Germany?
Godwin's Law...no, we're not there yet.
| 43 |
BryanS Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:32:09pm |
re: #39 SanFranciscoZionist
Giuliani has no hope of the nomination, less than he did last time. (You probably know that already, I'm just saying.)
Yeah, the personal stuff pretty much killed any possibility of his being president.
| 44 |
Mr Pancakes Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:32:14pm |
re: #39 SanFranciscoZionist
Giuliani has no hope of the nomination, less than he did last time. (You probably know that already, I'm just saying.)
Yep... no chance west of the Hudson.
| 45 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:32:14pm |
re: #41 Max D. Reinhardt
It would definitely hurt, and probably the only reason I wouldn't vote for him. I don't care about the abortion crap or all the other stuff that doesn't matter over the grand scheme of things.
| 46 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:32:34pm |
re: #32 SanFranciscoZionist
There's time. Someone normal could show up!
But they won't.
The only way they will is another GOP rout in the elections. Then maybe we will see sane GOP in 2012. If they gain seats this round though, they will see it as a sign that being more crazy instead of less is the winning stratagem. Then we will see a serious run from the wingnuts.
| 47 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:33:01pm |
re: #43 BryanS
Yeah, the personal stuff pretty much killed any possibility of his being president.
He's a social liberal, he's Catholic, he's Italian...wasn't gonna happen.
Also, he's from NYC.
| 48 |
BryanS Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:33:34pm |
re: #41 Max D. Reinhardt
At this point, I can't see Romney pulling out a win, in the primary or the general election. I have a feeling that his state healthcare overhaul would be his "war vote", it would kill his campaign.
Agreed. A Republican party looking at running against the health care reform and trying to defund it cannot nominate the architect of "Romneycare" for the top of the ticket.
| 49 |
Batman Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:33:48pm |
I didn't realize New York City was the holiest city in Christianity. That's the place where Jesus famously went to get His lattes, as referenced in Luke and John. It's not like that's where He was born, or where He died-slash-ascended into Heaven, am I right?
| 50 |
freetoken Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:34:33pm |
re: #49 nonsense
He also caught a few plays on Broadway in between mochas.
| 51 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:34:56pm |
re: #47 SanFranciscoZionist
All that stuff wouldn't matter to me if he wasn't a piece of shit in his personal life.
Oh well. Enough re-treads.
| 53 |
Max Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:35:19pm |
re: #45 TheMatrix31
It would definitely hurt, and probably the only reason I wouldn't vote for him. I don't care about the abortion crap or all the other stuff that doesn't matter over the grand scheme of things.
I'm a registered Republican but I'm pro-choice all the way. His flip to the anti-choice side, his misrepresentation of the New START treaty, his disastrous healthcare overhaul, and making the dubious claim that the Founders where guided and formed America on Judeo-Christian values made me give up on him.
| 54 |
BryanS Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:35:25pm |
re: #46 LudwigVanQuixote
But they won't.
The only way they will is another GOP rout in the elections. Then maybe we will see sane GOP in 2012. If they gain seats this round though, they will see it as a sign that being more crazy instead of less is the winning stratagem. Then we will see a serious run from the wingnuts.
Chris Christie would excite the party--though he's pretty insistent on not running.
| 56 |
Irenicum Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:36:12pm |
re: #54 BryanS
They all are. Until the day they run. I wouldn't mind him running by the way.
| 57 |
BryanS Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:37:55pm |
re: #55 TheMatrix31
Paul Ryan would be the best.
As a Wisconson resident, I wholeheartedly agree. Also, pretty insistent in not being interested in the job.
| 58 |
sagehen Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:38:29pm |
re: #30 BryanS
Yes. But he's as deft at the trade as Al Gore--and as believable as well. I see a lot of similarities between the two.
If Romney had stood by his Massachussetts record, if he'd said "yes, that's how a conservative Republican governs with a legislature that's majority liberal Democrats"... he'd have had my support in 2008.
Unfortunately, I can't bring myself to vote for a shape-shifter.
| 59 |
Max Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:38:50pm |
Mike Pence used to appeal to me because of his strong stand against anti-Semitism and his commitment to the WoT but he's just a cynical politician, throwing in with the Tea Parties.
Now I know what it feels like to be an alienated voter.
| 60 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:39:17pm |
| 61 |
sagehen Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:39:47pm |
re: #36 SanFranciscoZionist
So, sort of "Birth of A Nation" meets "Lawrence of Arabia" meets "Volunteers", meets "Saved"?
So they all kill each other, and the world is better off without them. I like it.
| 62 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:40:05pm |
I have been hostile to Newtie's idea of "civilization" ever since he took out a contract on America.
| 63 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:40:08pm |
re: #40 TheMatrix31
Being that blind to the history is ridiculous and offensive. But then again, being blindly partisan is what you do.
But back to the real Nazis. The real no-Godwin historical Nazis.
The central Nazi message was to convince the average German that he was an oppressed victim in his own nation, while simultaneously pumping them up as a master race with a destiny.
There are only certain ways that you can convince the majority that they are victims in their own nation. The Nazis did them all. It is with these points of convergence that people should be very afraid of the very real parallels.
If you are telling people that they are rightful supermen who are better loved than others, the only way that such ubermenschen can be in the dire straits they are is if they were betrayed from within and without. You have to sell many enemies and conspiracy theories everywhere.
Let's really look at the central Nazi messages:
1. The government is not loyal to you.
2. The government no longer cares for the values of your nation.
3. Your society's morals have crumbled. The Nazis murdered gay people as well as Jews. In fact, homosexuals were amongst the first groups targeted for murder.
4. As an extension of three, vulnerable groups are quickly identified as the source of those problems. Jews, Gays, Immigrants were all people who were historically marginalized in Germany. They were the first targets. Playing on age old prejudices made it all an easy sell for a certain sort.
5. Extreme xeno-phobia needs to be pumped up. Not only does this fire jingoistic rage, which is then something to use as a wedge issue, but it targets the most vulnerable of all groups, recent immigrants. After all, they surely are not real Americans (I'm sorry, we are talking about Germany)
6. Constant references to a mythical synthesis of a shining Germany that never was... The goal of the master race needs to be the full flowering of cultural superiority. For the Germans, of course it was some mix of Wagner and the might of Prussia.
7. This fits well with an alliance with German industry who will fuel the transformation from powerless to "taking it all back." As such German industry funded a massive and sustained media push to get the Nazi message out. It gave a disproportionate voice to the growing craziness and legitimized for public speech what would have been counted as madness earlier.
8. Communists and socialists were everywhere according to the Nazis. Spreading fear of them was a very useful way to keep the angry and disenfranchised riled up. But the real key of it was convincing the middle class that they would lose everything unless drastic measures were taken.
9. The Nazis were not above spreading the most vile lies or whining pitiably. They saw themselves early on as martyrs for a sacred cause. Everyone was out to get the Germans, and as the only "Real Germans," they thought they would take whatever means necessary. Rewriting history and burning books and silencing intellectuals was an early goal of theirs.
10. The Nazis were first and foremost a populist movement. Part of their largest selling point was that they were just average Germans - but with the courage to be everything a German should be - not some whiny gay or socialist or minority professor type of loose morals.
11. They had all sorts of this will fix everything economic theories that in the end of the day favored the industrialists. This dovetailed with convincing people that they were going to lose everything.
Look at the above list and think of Fox, and the messages it and Rush and Beck and Palin and Paul spread. Replace Wagner and the cult of Bismark with a certain view of Christianity and a cult of the Cowboy. Hating gays is the same. replace Jews with blacks and browns. The real saving grace is America has not hit the sort of economic crisis that German
| 64 |
BryanS Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:40:21pm |
re: #60 TheMatrix31
People need to bust his balls until he does want to do it.
We need him.
As Speaker.
| 65 |
SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:41:07pm |
re: #51 TheMatrix31
All that stuff wouldn't matter to me if he wasn't a piece of shit in his personal life.
Oh well. Enough re-treads.
Wouldn't matter to you, or a lot of people, but demographically, it makes his taking the nomination basically impossible.
| 66 |
Max Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:41:26pm |
re: #55 TheMatrix31
Paul Ryan makes a total ass of himself anytime he has to debate. Obama eviscerated him at that GOP v. Obama healthcare debate.
| 67 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:41:33pm |
re: #42 BryanS
Godwin's Law...no, we're not there yet.
Calling the parallels Godwin is a lovely way for the ignorant to pretend they are not there.
| 68 |
BryanS Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:41:58pm |
re: #62 Cato the Elder
I have been hostile to Newtie's idea of "civilization" ever since he took out a contract on America.
What policies in that contract did you no like? The vast majority was very popular obviously within Republican circles, but also among independents.
| 69 |
freetoken Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:42:20pm |
Here's a question:
Which is more stupid? -
A. A politician who says something stupid, because he really is.
B. A politician who says something stupid, though he knows better, but just plays stupid so as to not sound too stupid.
Case in point:
LePage's Train Tour Derails His Campaign
LePage's apology came during an appearance on the conservative-leaning WVOM morning show, where he also proceeded to mangle the English language ("My differences with Elizabeth Mitchell is on the policies") and make a very surprising declaration: "From now on what I'm going to do is I'm not going to make any comments to reporters unless it's in writing." [hehe, he's pulling a Sharon Angle!][...]
It also means that we may never get a straight answer to another question raised by LePage's locomotive logorrhea: where he stands on teaching creationism in schools.
During the primary, LePage seemed to be all for it, answering "Yes and yes" to the question "Do you believe in creationism and do you think it should be taught in Maine public schools?" during MPBN’s televised debate.
Even as late as last month, LePage still seemed to hold that view. He was quoted in the Press Herald on June 21, 2010, as saying about creationism that "Quite frankly, it's a learning tool for our kids. I think we should teach them everything possible and let them make their own minds up on how they want to live their lives."
But once aboard the train, LePage changed his tune. "I never said such a thing," LePage told Susan Sharon. "Quite frankly, until [Manning] brought up the term creationism I never heard it. I never hear it in my whole life. I'm 61 years old. I never heard the word. Do I believe that we came from monkeys? Yes. Do I believe in God? Yes. Does that make me a creationist?"
Never heard of "creationism"? A religious Catholic, in this country? Explicitly asked about it?
Hehe...
| 70 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:43:07pm |
re: #66 Max D. Reinhardt
I guess I viewed that confrontation differently.
| 71 |
TheMatrix31 Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:45:28pm |
re: #63 LudwigVanQuixote
Jeeeesus.
I guess that's my cue to sign off for the evening. I can't take that much ridiculous garbage in one night.
Cool bro, so we're Nazis. Sounds fucking fantastic.
Good night.
| 72 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:47:15pm |
re: #71 TheMatrix31
Jeeesus.
I guess that's my cue to sign off for the evening. I can't take that much ridiculous garbage in one night.
Cool bro, so we're Nazis. Sounds fucking fantastic.
Good night.
NO you are not a Nazi, just willfully blind, ignorant and incapable of looking at actual history.
| 73 |
Batman Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:47:54pm |
re: #52 Irenicum
Who's your nic? I'm curious.
I'm not sure what you mean, but if you're referring to my little avatar pic it's Dmitri Shostakovich, the russian composer. Was that what you're asking?
| 74 |
BryanS Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:48:57pm |
re: #67 LudwigVanQuixote
Calling the parallels Godwin is a lovely way for the ignorant to pretend they are not there.
There's a reason to call out the Nazi comparison when trotted out so easily. We are in no way even remotely close to Nazism in this country. Comparisons to the Nazis are what are ignorant.
| 75 |
Max Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:49:24pm |
re: #63 LudwigVanQuixote
All that being true, if the "Tea Party" got into power I don't think they would commit as heinous crimes as the Nazis.
Halting the construction of the Islamic community center two blocks from Ground Zero would be an egregious breach of the First Amendment but it is not on the same scale as Auschwitz or the T-4 program.
| 76 |
Cato the Elder Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:49:32pm |
re: #68 BryanS
What policies in that contract did you no like? The vast majority was very popular obviously within Republican circles, but also among independents.
Piss-warm, two-decade-old Thatcherism never struck me as a valid way forward for this country.
| 77 |
engineer cat Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:49:39pm |
re: #73 nonsense
I'm not sure what you mean, but if you're referring to my little avatar pic it's Dmitri Shostakovich, the russian composer. Was that what you're asking?
love the 24 preludes and fugues
it takes some nerve to write fugues in a mid 20th cen idiom
| 78 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:51:42pm |
re: #74 BryanS
There's a reason to call out the Nazi comparison when trotted out so easily. We are in no way even remotely close to Nazism in this country. Comparisons to the Nazis are what are ignorant.
Re read the points of comparison and dispute the actual history if you wish to make that point in a legitimate manner. As it is, all you are saying is that the truth of it makes you uncomfortable.
| 79 |
BryanS Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:51:49pm |
re: #76 Cato the Elder
Piss-warm, two-decade-old Thatcherism never struck me as a valid way forward for this country.
Heh :) I rather liked that they had a coherent list of broadly supported proposals that they then sought to enact. I wish political parties were always that coherent and up front.
| 80 |
windsagio Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:52:14pm |
re: #76 Cato the Elder
Piss-warm, two-decade-old Thatcherism never struck me as a valid way forward for this country.
Hey, that's a good effect of the 'contract' though... For anyone really looking that economic/political theory is now just about as discredited as communism.
(Random note: At my sisters, forgot I could use her computer. So far had two different babies spit up on me today, so I guess that's a good day)
| 81 |
sagehen Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:52:17pm |
re: #74 BryanS
There's a reason to call out the Nazi comparison when trotted out so easily. We are in no way even remotely close to Nazism in this country. Comparisons to the Nazis are what are ignorant.
And in 1934, the nazis weren't at all what we came to know to them later. They hadn't killed anybody, or invaded anyone, or built any camps...
| 82 |
windsagio Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:53:52pm |
re: #78 LudwigVanQuixote
The point of Godwin isn't that the parallels aren't there sometimes, but rather that they're not necessarily that useful to make, due to overuse diluting the argument.
I mean I think you're right they're pretty nazish, but I would never bring it up because I think it would actually weaken my argument to make the comparison.
| 83 |
engineer cat Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:53:56pm |
re: #75 Max D. Reinhardt
All that being true, if the "Tea Party" got into power I don't think they would commit as heinous crimes as the Nazis.
i think of most of the tea party people - racists and other haters aside - as perfectly nice people who sincerely believe all the ridiculous theories republican politicians have come up with to justify their behavior over the years
they've just begun to twig to the fact that the regular republican party has no intention of carrying them out
people like glen beck, one the other hand, deserves to be compared to jules streicher
| 84 |
freetoken Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:55:27pm |
Back on topic, the NRO (Andy McCarthy) loves Newt's approach:
Newt Is Dramatically Refocusing Our Understanding of Sharia's Threat to the West
Yes, the real lesson of the "Ground Zero Mosque" is that Sharia is imminent!!
| 85 |
windsagio Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:55:37pm |
re: #83 engineer dog
The tea Party is the 'big lie' taken a step too far, or to put it another way, the inmates running the asylum.
They should have known that, if they kept feeding the crazies, eventually they'd lose control of the situation... Maybe they just didn't care given the shortterm gains.
| 86 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:55:47pm |
re: #75 Max D. Reinhardt
All that being true, if the "Tea Party" got into power I don't think they would commit as heinous crimes as the Nazis.
Halting the construction of the Islamic community center two blocks from Ground Zero would be an egregious breach of the First Amendment but it is not on the same scale as Auschwitz or the T-4 program.
If my argument were restricted to just that, you would have a point.
If the economy remains stable certainly you are correct. If the economy takes a real body blow, all bets are off. If you honestly think that the people waggling their guns and vandalizing mosques are incapable fo such violence - or at the very least tacitly approving of it when the more radical elements do it, you are sadly mistaken.
The full blown Nazi horror needed over a decade to germinate.
We are still in the early stages and mercifully, the economy is intact.
However, if the economy tanks and Fox blames all the usual suspects and a group of wingnuts are elected in a fit of nativist rage... all bets are off. I don't believe that the regular American army would so easily turn on its own people, but extensive racial violence of a Kristalnacht variety is not hard to imagine at all in America under those circumstances.
| 87 |
Max Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:56:09pm |
re: #83 engineer dog
people like glen beck, one the other hand, deserves to be compared to jules streicher
No. I'm sorry, as much as I detest Beck, his show is not the equivalent to Der Sturmer.
| 88 |
sagehen Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:57:07pm |
re: #75 Max D. Reinhardt
All that being true, if the "Tea Party" got into power I don't think they would commit as heinous crimes as the Nazis.
Halting the construction of the Islamic community center two blocks from Ground Zero would be an egregious breach of the First Amendment but it is not on the same scale as Auschwitz or the T-4 program.
So you don't think they'd pass anti-gay laws similar to what the C-Street people got enacted Uganda? You don't think there'd be anti-Muslim and anti-Hispanic Kristallnacht equivalents? You don't think there'd be lynchings of Planned Parenthood staff?
You have a kinder view of the tea party than I do.
| 89 |
freetoken Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:57:34pm |
While there are parallels between the early Nazis and current far-right/Tea Party frothing in this country, perhaps a better analogy would be to Fascist Italy?
There is a level of incompetence and chaos among the Tea Partiers that seems to remind me of the stereotyped Italian fascists in their unwieldily manner.
| 90 |
windsagio Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:58:22pm |
re: #89 freetoken
While there are parallels between the early Nazis and current far-right/Tea Party frothing in this country, perhaps a better analogy would be to Fascist Italy?
There is a level of incompetence and chaos among the Tea Partiers that seems to remind me of the stereotyped Italian fascists in their unwieldily manner.
Thats the one I actually like to use.
Call them 'Racist Fascists', it has good zing to it :)
| 91 |
BryanS Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:58:30pm |
re: #78 LudwigVanQuixote
Re read the points of comparison and dispute the actual history if you wish to make that point in a legitimate manner. As it is, all you are saying is that the truth of it makes you uncomfortable.
You shot off a list of points about Nazi characteristics, but failed to do any real comparison except to claim Fox News is doing it all. Who is advocating exporting all Jews/Gays/Muslims from the country? Who is claiming that thee groups are the cause of the current economic turmoil?
| 92 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Jul 28, 2010 11:59:46pm |
re: #82 windsagio
The point of Godwin isn't that the parallels aren't there sometimes, but rather that they're not necessarily that useful to make, due to overuse diluting the argument.
I mean I think you're right they're pretty nazish, but I would never bring it up because I think it would actually weaken my argument to make the comparison.
And that is simply wishful thinking that it isn't as bad as it is. With the early Nazis, the average German thought they were nuts and would never amount to anything. The early Nazis were a joke. That is how they were allowed to fester so long amongst the uneducated classes.
People just like you in Germany of 1927 thought that they were loonies who would pass.
We are not in Germany of 1938, rather 27. The Az law for instance was written by people who quote Hitler's 1927 Nuremberg rally speech almost verbatim. What does "to populate is to control" mean to you in the context of an anti immigration bill? What exactly was Hitler saying then and the Az people saying now?
No my friend, you are suffering from very wishful thinking.
| 93 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:01:39am |
re: #83 engineer dog
i think of most of the tea party people - racists and other haters aside - as perfectly nice people who sincerely believe all the ridiculous theories republican politicians have come up with to justify their behavior over the years
they've just begun to twig to the fact that the regular republican party has no intention of carrying them out
people like glen beck, one the other hand, deserves to be compared to jules streicher
Certainly Rush does. Certainly RSM and Jones and Gellar and Malkin do.
IT is utterly foolish to not see this for what it is.
The fact that the economy has not tanked is the only thing saving us from a serious national movement that would strip our liberties and lurch towards real fascism.
| 94 |
windsagio Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:02:12am |
re: #92 LudwigVanQuixote
You're missing my point Ludwig, I"m saying you're right.
I'm also saying that using nazis there Lessens the strength and impact of your argument.
Even if you're right, people tend to glaze over/ignore you when you say 'nazis'.
| 95 |
engineer cat Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:02:57am |
re: #87 Max D. Reinhardt
No. I'm sorry, as much as I detest Beck, his show is not the equivalent to Der Sturmer.
well, i think it's a valid question, and a bit of a stretch on my part, but thinking about it, watching glen beck preaching in an apocalyptic swoon that progressives are immoral, and plotting to utterly destroy america from greedy and nefarious motives, is as close to the blood libel as i've ever seen on a national "news" network
it gives me the 3am dreads
| 96 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:04:17am |
re: #91 BryanS
You shot off a list of points about Nazi characteristics, but failed to do any real comparison except to claim Fox News is doing it all. Who is advocating exporting all Jews/Gays/Muslims from the country? Who is claiming that thee groups are the cause of the current economic turmoil?
Hmmm.... IN terms of the Jews not as much.
In terms of gay Muslim and brown people bashing, you have got to be kidding.
What does the central message of a non-American, non Christian anti white president mean to you? Who all are saying that?
You also managed to neatly avoid any of my other points. Good show on the willful blindness.
| 97 |
Max Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:04:51am |
re: #86 LudwigVanQuixote
If my argument were restricted to just that, you would have a point.
If the economy remains stable certainly you are correct. If the economy takes a real body blow, all bets are off. If you honestly think that the people waggling their guns and vandalizing mosques are incapable fo such violence - or at the very least tacitly approving of it when the more radical elements do it, you are sadly mistaken.
The full blown Nazi horror needed over a decade to germinate.
We are still in the early stages and mercifully, the economy is intact.
However, if the economy tanks and Fox blames all the usual suspects and a group of wingnuts are elected in a fit of nativist rage... all bets are off. I don't believe that the regular American army would so easily turn on its own people, but extensive racial violence of a Kristalnacht variety is not hard to imagine at all in America under those circumstances.
Rush and Fox usually targets "Congressional liberals" as the problem. You can't conduct a Kristalnacht against a liberal because there is no set profile for what a liberal looks like. The right-wing media could never, even in this age, get away with calls for violence against Muslims, immigrants, or African-Americans. Loons like Mark Warner are thankfully marginalized, and that "papers-please" neo-Nazi immigration bill was gutted today.
I won't vote nor will I support for a Tea Party candidate or will I call him a Nazi (unless he's like Russel Pearce).
| 98 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:05:23am |
re: #94 windsagio
You're missing my point Ludwig, I"m saying you're right.
I'm also saying that using nazis there Lessens the strength and impact of your argument.
Even if you're right, people tend to glaze over/ignore you when you say 'nazis'.
And yet, that is exactly what it is. I am not here to sugar coat the truth. I leave that to those who care to work in the realm of politics. I deal in facts.
| 99 |
freetoken Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:06:01am |
re: #83 engineer dog
i think of most of the tea party people - racists and other haters aside - as perfectly nice people who sincerely believe all the ridiculous theories republican politicians have come up with to justify their behavior over the years
But that is, indeed, the problem.
People are not compared to sheep for nothing. We all want to be led - it takes the onus of making the hard decisions off of us.
For all their mouthing of "libertarian" talking points, many of the Tea Partiers seem quiet unwilling (unable?) to think for themselves. That's why we get idiots (truly idiots) like Angle and LePage emerging in the political races. The Tea Partiers just go with the flow, not really questioning some of the stupidity that flushes out of the mouths of their leaders.
| 100 |
windsagio Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:06:12am |
re: #98 LudwigVanQuixote
I suppose I have to respect the self-defeating honesty of that ;)
| 101 |
engineer cat Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:10:47am |
re: #99 freetoken
But that is, indeed, the problem.
People are not compared to sheep for nothing. We all want to be led - it takes the onus of making the hard decisions off of us.
For all their mouthing of "libertarian" talking points, many of the Tea Partiers seem quiet unwilling (unable?) to think for themselves. That's why we get idiots (truly idiots) like Angle and LePage emerging in the political races. The Tea Partiers just go with the flow, not really questioning some of the stupidity that flushes out of the mouths of their leaders.
well that is definitely fer sure true
i have been "debating" for years with the denizens of the only right wing blog that doesn't ban opinions that they don't like. over the years i have come to realize that no amount of evidence or logically connected arguments will budge them from a single article of irrational faith
it's an interesting exercise and very educational...
| 102 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:11:38am |
re: #97 Max D. Reinhardt
Rush and Fox usually targets "Congressional liberals" as the problem.
Yes, they are the communists and socialists that the NAzis saw everywhere. However, Rush and Fox have their share to say about every single other of the central nazi messages as applied to America. How can you deny that? Are you going to say that they don't spread conspiracy theories about the "destruction of white America" or that whites are victims in their own nation. The sine qua non of Nazism is that the majority is a victim in its own nation and losing everything to corruptive and alien forces. How is that not Rush, Beck, Fox, Palin, Malkin, RSM, Gellar et al to a Tee?
Then there is the corporate alliance... Do your really want to debate this?
You can't conduct a Kristalnacht against a liberal because there is no set profile for what a liberal looks like.
No it will be against mosques and places where militant Blacks congregate.
The right-wing media could never, even in this age, get away with calls for violence against Muslims, immigrants, or African-Americans.
Have you ever looked at hot air or PJM or Allapundit or Gellar or RSM or Van Jones or Breitbart?
Loons like Mark Warner are thankfully marginalized, and that "papers-please" neo-Nazi immigration bill was gutted today.
And the wingnuts are screaming like stuck pigs. This is far from over.
| 103 |
freetoken Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:12:20am |
re: #101 engineer dog
i have been "debating" for years with the denizens of the only right wing blog that doesn't ban opinions that they don't like.
Will you share which one that is?
| 104 |
Max Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:12:54am |
re: #88 sagehen
So you don't think they'd pass anti-gay laws similar to what the C-Street people got enacted Uganda? You don't think there'd be anti-Muslim and anti-Hispanic Kristallnacht equivalents? You don't think there'd be lynchings of Planned Parenthood staff?
You have a kinder view of the tea party than I do.
There would be rowdy protests in front of Planned Parenthood offices and possibly even a bombing, but as horrible as that would be it is still unequivocal to what the Nazis did.
A country-wide raid against Hispanic and Muslim shops? Certainly these incidents are rising but not on the Kristalnacht level.
I have a low view of the Tea Party, but I live in a fairly conservative area and I've talked to a few of them about gay rights. Not one has advocated the death penalty for gays. In fact, when I tell them about that disgusting bill in Uganda and the American priests who support it, they're repulsed.
But maybe I'm being duped.
In times of economic crisis, the American people have turned to demagogues and extremists like Huey Long and Father Charles Coughlin, but they always find their way back to sanity.
| 105 |
engineer cat Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:14:55am |
the thing that pisses me off the most is the constant drumbeat of lies that begin with the phrase "liberals believe..." and "liberals want..."
my correspondents spend a considerable amount of time trying to convince me that i'm lying about my opinions, and that i really believe what they have been told "liberals believe"
| 106 |
freetoken Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:16:10am |
re: #104 Max D. Reinhardt
In times of economic crisis, the American people have turned to demagogues and extremists like Huey Long and Father Charles Coughlin, but they always find their way back to sanity.
We are a rather diverse bunch, all 310 million of us. Because of that I don't see us going the way of Hitler's Germany.
Yet I do think that those among us who do want highly nationalistic and theocratic instantiations of government will cause enough trouble politically that we will suffer some negative consequences.
| 107 |
engineer cat Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:16:40am |
re: #103 freetoken
Will you share which one that is?
betsy's page
i thank betsy for her years of putting up with me
| 108 |
BryanS Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:16:40am |
re: #96 LudwigVanQuixote
Hmmm... IN terms of the Jews not as much.
In terms of gay Muslim and brown people bashing, you have got to be kidding.
What does the central message of a non-American, non Christian anti white president mean to you? Who all are saying that?
You also managed to neatly avoid any of my other points. Good show on the willful blindness.
No willful blindness--I addressed the tenor of the post in its entirety. The essence of Nazism was to scapegoat and then advocate the deportation and/or wholesale slaughter of these groups. I could assign almost all your points to fringe elements on the left--doesn't make them Nazis.
| 109 |
windsagio Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:17:24am |
re: #107 engineer dog
Psst: You almost walked right into that one!
| 110 |
Nimed Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:17:46am |
Even if we accept Gingrich's idiotic rationale, why forbid mosques in NYC? Wouldn't it make more sense to forbid them in Rome? Jerusalem would be even better, but it's too late for that now.
Mecca is a holy city for Muslims. If there's one thing New York is NOT is holy. And we like it that way.
| 111 |
windsagio Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:19:07am |
re: #110 Nimed
Even if we accept Gingrich's idiotic rationale, why forbid mosques in NYC? Wouldn't it make more sense to forbid them in Rome? Jerusalem would be even better, but it's too late for that now.
Mecca is a holy city for Muslims. If there's one thing New York is NOT is holy. And we like it that way.
So true!
And to repeat: Hearing the WTC site referred to as 'hallowed ground' makes me want to spit :P
| 112 |
Max Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:19:11am |
re: #102 LudwigVanQuixote
I'm sorry Ludvig, but I cannot in good conscience say that the Tea Partiers would be as horrific as the Nazis.
I remember during the Bush years, when I was the Zionist neocon war monger, I and other Iraq War supporters were compared to Nazis everyday and some cases could be considered quite compelling by some people. They called us demagogues and freedom haters, but it wasn't true and looking back I think they see that Bush and his policies were not Nazi-like in the least.
| 113 |
Lidane Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:19:22am |
re: #20 Max D. Reinhardt
I'm a registered Republican but I can't see myself voting for any of the "major front runners."
Gingrich: flip flopper, hypocrite, and anti-Muslim bigot
Palin: obvious
Huckabee: Rushdoony-style theocrat
Romney: no chance in hell for a lot of reasons, among them Romneycare
Tancredo: lol
Duncan Hunter: lol
Ron Paul: batshit crazy
The only Republican I'd ever consider holding my nose and voting for is Jon Huntsman, but he clearly saw what was coming and was smart enough to get the hell out of the country after 2008.
Besides, he'd get crucified in a primary for two reasons: 1. He's a Mormon and the wingnut fundies won't vote for a Mormon despite their slavish devotion to Glenn Beck's idiocy, and 2. Huntsman accepted Obama's offer to be the ambassador to China. He's working with our Seekrit Mooslim Overlord, and that's just unacceptable to these people.
| 114 |
engineer cat Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:19:58am |
| 116 |
freetoken Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:24:15am |
betsy's page
Hah! When I first read that I thought you meant this!
Then I googled "Betsy's Page" and found the blog that I think you meant. Yeah, yet another blog linking to the usual suspects (AoS, HA, American Thinker, etc.
| 117 |
Nimed Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:25:55am |
re: #111 windsagio
So true!
And to repeat: Hearing the WTC site referred to as 'hallowed ground' makes me want to spit :P
:) Now if you could only see the light regarding Battlestar Galactica...
/
| 118 |
engineer cat Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:27:06am |
| 119 |
windsagio Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:27:23am |
re: #117 Nimed
:) Now if you could only see the light regarding Battlestar Galactica...
/
:D
Some marketing genius just figured out that geeks love soap opera just as much as housewives. Add in a few hot chicks and instant classic, right?
Also deeply self-important, I don't like that much.
| 120 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:28:18am |
re: #112 Max D. Reinhardt
I'm sorry Ludvig, but I cannot in good conscience say that the Tea Partiers would be as horrific as the Nazis.
And nowhere did I say that. I said that these are the same threads that were used historically by exactly the same sorts of people and that we are not at the full germination of a Nazi horror.
Now as to the general philosophical point, if you honestly believe that the threatened folks of America - who believe that their grannies will be killed in death panels (run by communisdt/socialist non-Christian- non- whites) could not be as brutal of vile as the actual Nazis, you are being sadly optimistic.
I remember during the Bush years, when I was the Zionist neocon war monger, I and other Iraq War supporters were compared to Nazis everyday and some cases could be considered quite compelling by some people.
Yes, those were idiots making that comparison. I am deeply opposed to the war and I detest the lies that got us into it - and the liars who told them. However, that was something else entirely.
They called us demagogues and freedom haters,
Except the people on Fox are demagogues and freedom haters. The Texas BOE certainly fits that bill and for that matter. I could list dozens of examples more but, what is the topic of this thread? How is that not freedom hating demagoguery?
but it wasn't true and looking back I think they see that Bush and his policies were not Nazi-like in the least.
You are again mixing apples and oranges. I am not some moonbat arguing for the sake of hyperbole. The historical parallels and patterns are there. The only we you will convince me they are not is to point out how the examples that I listed do not apply today. All you have really argued is that you don't think it could go as far in America as it did in Germany. I am inclined to agree because of our heterogeneous military. However, we have none the less started down that road and there is still a lot further down it we can go before we get to the point of the army refusing orders.
| 121 |
windsagio Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:30:12am |
'lol' doonesbury sequence, Sarah Palin doll plans overthrow of little girl.
I await the end of this series with great joy ;)
| 122 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:31:25am |
re: #108 BryanS
The essence of Nazism was to scapegoat and then advocate the deportation and/or wholesale slaughter of these groups.
And what exactly are we hearing from the far right in regards to Muslims and immigrants?
I could assign almost all your points to fringe elements on the left
I am sure you would love the chance to create that diversion. However, whatever finge left group you come up with would not have the support of a major network, numerous talking heads and a major political party. At that point your comparison would fall to pieces.
--doesn't make them Nazis.
And yet it is the same core message spread in the same way by the same sorts of people and believed by the same types....
| 123 |
freetoken Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:33:05am |
re: #120 LudwigVanQuixote
The historical parallels and patterns are there.
I agree that there is a growing influence of fascistic thinking among the self-declared "right" these days.
But I also believe that, as happened throughout the world in the early 20th century when fascism found itself in many flavors, the American version will be peculiar to our society.
| 125 |
Nimed Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:33:56am |
re: #119 windsagio
:D
Some marketing genius just figured out that geeks love soap opera just as much as housewives. Add in a few hot chicks and instant classic, right?
Also deeply self-important, I don't like that much.
I should warn you that my line of defense here is not saying that Galactica 2.0 is awesome. I'm saying just about every other science fiction series (but not movie or book) has equal or greater flaws. What better series do you propose?
Note: I've never watched Firefly.
| 126 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:36:03am |
re: #123 freetoken
I agree that there is a growing influence of fascistic thinking among the self-declared "right" these days.
But I also believe that, as happened throughout the world in the early 20th century when fascism found itself in many flavors, the American version will be peculiar to our society.
The difference between a brown shirt thug who murders a Jew and a Dixie flag wearing cowboy who murders a Muslim or a Black or brown person - in the smae mindset for the same hatreds and jingoistic fears, matters little to me. Those things are window dressing.
| 127 |
windsagio Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:36:05am |
re: #125 Nimed
Lets go with the original Galatica.
Had a better unifying philosophy (even though I'm not Mormon), and actually had a sense of fun, something that was stripped out if Science Fiction by the mid-80s.
| 128 |
windsagio Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:37:07am |
also; hoping htis freakishly loud keyboard doesn't wake my brother-in-law.
| 129 |
freetoken Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:38:23am |
re: #125 Nimed
Note: I've never watched Firefly.
That's too bad, because Morena Baccarin is such a babe.
| 130 |
engineer cat Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:38:52am |
allow me to repeat and amplify LVQ's remark
the people on Fox ARE demagogues AND freedom haters
i think the parallels in terms of demagogic technique and racism are exactly like those of the nazis
i know that many sincere and rational republicans are still smarting from being unfairly and ridiculously accused of being nazis during iraq & etc., but that doesn't negate the astonishing resemblance of the shitstorm that is emanating from other quarters today to the rise of nazism
| 131 |
Lidane Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:40:37am |
re: #121 windsagio
'lol' doonesbury sequence, Sarah Palin doll plans overthrow of little girl.
I await the end of this series with great joy ;)
My personal favorite series with a comic Sarah Palin:
[Link: www.sinfest.net...]
The pig is actually one of the main characters in the strip. The cartoonist just took the whole "lipstick on a pig" controversy and turned a male pig into Sarah Piglin, Veep candidate. Heh.
| 132 |
Max Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:43:55am |
re: #120 LudwigVanQuixote
Look, for the most part I agree with you. The Tea Party "movement" is built on demagoguery and the exploitation of the new era of non-racial-majority politics. And I am glad that you agree that we're far from the point of a fascist America. But my contention is is that this will eventually cool down.
It happened in the 30s when demagogues like Huey Long on the Left and Father Charles Coughlin on the Right rose to prominence.
It happened in the 1970s with the end of the Hippie movement's popularity.
It happened in the late 1970s when the Black Nationalism of the Panther and the Nation of Islam diminished in appeal.
It happened after 1994 when Republicans won the House and Rush's ratings decreased.
The heat can turn up in politics, and I'll admit things are historically tense but then again this is a very pivotal time.
In short, demagogues rise but they always fall, what unites Americans is stronger than what divides us. In the end being an American means more to people than their loyalty to their favorite pundit.
| 133 |
sagehen Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:44:06am |
re: #127 windsagio
Lets go with the original Galatica.
Had a better unifying philosophy (even though I'm not Mormon), and actually had a sense of fun, something that was stripped out if Science Fiction by the mid-80s.
Stargate Atlantis was pure fluffy fun. Stargate SG1 was slightly less fluffy, but still plenty fun. (Stargate Universe I'm not so fond of).
(also... the Organization for Transformative Works got the Library of Cognress to grant vidders
exemption from the DMCA copyright for noncommercial remix vids Ya!)
| 134 |
Nimed Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:45:23am |
re: #127 windsagio
Lets go with the original Galatica.
Had a better unifying philosophy (even though I'm not Mormon), and actually had a sense of fun, something that was stripped out if Science Fiction by the mid-80s.
Oh, Jesus, I'll have to postpone this. Just opened an email, I've got to drop by the lab in the morning.
Sorry, wind. But this ain't over yet.
| 135 |
windsagio Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:45:48am |
re: #133 sagehen
sadly can't click on video links right now for fear of waking people up. Their house is designed weird (with the master bedroom being a loft over the study area where the computers are). I'll try to check if I have time tomorrow tho :D
NOted tho"!
| 137 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:45:59am |
re: #132 Max D. Reinhardt
Look, for the most part I agree with you. The Tea Party "movement" is built on demagoguery and the exploitation of the new era of non-racial-majority politics. And I am glad that you agree that we're far from the point of a fascist America. But my contention is is that this will eventually cool down.
It happened in the 30s when demagogues like Huey Long on the Left and Father Charles Coughlin on the Right rose to prominence.
It happened in the 1970s with the end of the Hippie movement's popularity.
It happened in the late 1970s when the Black Nationalism of the Panther and the Nation of Islam diminished in appeal.
It happened after 1994 when Republicans won the House and Rush's ratings decreased.
The heat can turn up in politics, and I'll admit things are historically tense but then again this is a very pivotal time.
In short, demagogues rise but they always fall, what unites Americans is stronger than what divides us. In the end being an American means more to people than their loyalty to their favorite pundit.
I hope that you are correct. I am certainly not arguing that we are destined to a "nazified" America. I am arguing that what were are seeing is very much of that ilk and should be recognized as such. The sooner it is seen for what it is, the sooner it can fall.
| 138 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:46:30am |
re: #31 SanFranciscoZionist
That's exactly the message many people seem to have gotten. They truly believe that the warriors of international jihad are stronger and more committed than we, and only by matching them in savagery and blind faith will we prevail.
You see this kind of providing a false choice a lot from the right-wing these days (but in general, you can see it coming from all extreme politics): "You can either go along with our specific brand of religion/politics/culture/economics or you can advocate pluralism but that will lead to the other specific brand of religion/politics/culture/economics triumphing in the end." It's always an apocalyptic fight to the death, no shooting lower than for the end of history.
"You are either with us or against us" means "If you are not choosing to ban choice, you are choosing evil".
| 139 |
windsagio Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:46:42am |
re: #134 Nimed
WIMP!
PRobably good tho, I have to go to sleep too, got a looong day with a 3 year old and an infant and a harried mother ahead of me tomorrow :D
| 141 |
engineer cat Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:47:39am |
re: #132 Max D. Reinhardt
you're optimistic, and you believe in america
american is a great and unique country. i hope your prediction is correct
| 142 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:50:50am |
Oh, re: nazis: They only really got traction after the Great Depression.
| 143 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:51:06am |
That is, in the wake of it.
| 145 |
engineer cat Thu, Jul 29, 2010 12:53:12am |
and now for something completely different
the cartoon palin reminded me of the wickest, sickest, and funniest barbie doll site ever created
i think i saw it here first...
| 147 |
freetoken Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:11:51am |
re: #146 engineer dog
After midnight only us night-owls remain.
At this time of night pretty much Youtube reigns.
| 148 |
engineer cat Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:22:25am |
oh, and here is an email from my customer in hong kong, bargaining me down on a resale license from $350 to $200
why does every single one of these big companies insist on twisting my arm to get a break on the resale license? what a bunch of cheapskates
| 150 |
engineer cat Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:24:59am |
| 151 |
Kronocide Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:27:41am |
I was finally able to 'handle' a laphroig, now I'm starting to get scotch. I worked my way up to it with Lagavulin, my current fave.
| 153 |
Ben G. Hazi Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:42:44am |
re: #152 BigPapa
New potential leader for the GOP?
[Video]
As Barney Fife said, that's guy's a nut!
/slightly embarrassed to inhabit the same state as that joker
| 154 |
boxhead Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:47:20am |
re: #137 LudwigVanQuixote
I hope that you are correct. I am certainly not arguing that we are destined to a "nazified" America. I am arguing that what were are seeing is very much of that ilk and should be recognized as such. The sooner it is seen for what it is, the sooner it can fall.
I second that... But for me it is the first time these shenanigans happened while I was watching and aware. Does Newt really believe what he says or is he just pandering?
| 155 |
Kronocide Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:00:17am |
Newt really believes what he is saying. Why I left the GOP Reason #32.
| 156 |
Gus Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:00:45am |
Newt Gingrich is the same arrogant, affected, helmet headed, bigot he was when he left office in 1993. To hear that whiny voice of his makes me cringe. They need to take him and his fellow far-right peers back to the fossil grounds were they belong.
| 157 |
boxhead Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:06:06am |
re: #155 BigPapa
Newt really believes what he is saying. Why I left the GOP Reason #32.
Then that is really sad.... Somehow the word dumb ass keeps popping up in my head...
| 158 |
Kronocide Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:42:35am |
Newt is being totally childish: 'We'll let them build mosques here when they let us build churches in Mecca' is nothing but an antagonistic statement.
Saudi's (and by extension all Islam) bad, so we can be bad too. Just stupid to come from a supposed serious politician and thinker.
| 159 |
Gus Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:47:00am |
re: #158 BigPapa
Newt is being totally childish: 'We'll let them build mosques here when they let us build churches in Mecca' is nothing but an antagonistic statement.
Saudi's (and by extension all Islam) bad, so we can be bad too. Just stupid to come from a supposed serious politician and thinker.
Yeah, Saudis. Just don't mention US oil company interests in Saudi Arabia and their buddies over at the American Enterprise Institute including Newt's fondness of the petroleum industry. Gingrich talks out of both sides of his mouth. Only thing is that you only here one side talking in public.
| 162 |
RadicalModerate Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:59:55am |
re: #15 freetoken
A bit of additional info on the mosque vandalism/arson from the Dallas Morning News:
Apparently, this wasn't the first incident at this mosque this week, as people leaving services last Sunday were subject to racial and ethinic slurs from passing vehicles as well.
FBI, Arlington police investigate allegations of arson, hate graffiti and racial slurs at mosque
Also, comments to this article are enough to turn one's stomach.
For example, here's the first one listed:
ellie74
1:12 AM on July 29, 2010
This comment is hidden because you have chosen to ignore ellie74. Show DetailsHide Details
I also think it is silly to classify some vandalism as a hate crime or act of terrorism and very melodramatic on their part.
Reagrdless, if they are able to see it that way, it will be good for them to see how it feels to be on the other side, as the Islamists have "terrorized" many, killing those that are even in the same country as the people they don't agree with. They are crazy and awful, and I had always believed everyone's ideas, religion, color and anything else that makes them different to be a positive thing of diversity.
I have finally figured out where we get bigots- from people like the Islamists have proven to be over the last 10 years.
We need to clean our country of every one of them and send them home- nice or not, doesn't matter. Not one can be trusted!!!!
| 163 |
boxhead Thu, Jul 29, 2010 3:01:13am |
re: #158 BigPapa
Newt is being totally childish:
That seems to be the modus operandi for the nutters..
| 164 |
Sol Berdinowitz Thu, Jul 29, 2010 3:03:11am |
Shall we make America more like Saudi Arabia? How about stoning adulterers, Newt?
| 165 |
RadicalModerate Thu, Jul 29, 2010 3:09:48am |
Ugh. Just turned on Morning Joe on MSNBC where they are discussing the blocking of the Arizona immigration law, and find Pat Buchanan off on a nativist bender.
| 167 |
freetoken Thu, Jul 29, 2010 3:15:08am |
re: #165 RadicalModerate
PaleoPat's a bit too much so early in the morning.
| 169 |
freetoken Thu, Jul 29, 2010 3:15:42am |
Very popular song and singer from the hippie era of Japan:
| 170 |
freetoken Thu, Jul 29, 2010 3:22:01am |
re: #162 RadicalModerate
As can be counted on, the freepers are loving this story. Classic comments from the hate-right:
I don’t CARE what happens to Islamic mosques in the US, they build upon enemy ground they should expect the natives will react.
35 posted on July 28, 2010 10:10:33 PM PDT by Eye of Unk
--
| 171 |
freetoken Thu, Jul 29, 2010 3:27:44am |
re: #162 RadicalModerate
First reader comment on the FW Star-Telegram story on this incident:
Southlaker wrote on 7/29/2010 5:22:58 AM:
I think this story shows the problem of multiculturalism. The United States throughout its history up until recently has been an entirely Judeo-Christian and entirely African-American and White demographic. This is the problem when so rapidly you've had a cultural change and racial demographic change. It creates a lot of animosity among the native populations (Whites and Blacks). It is important that once we solve the problem of illegal immigration; we put a moratorium on "standard migrants." We should only allow skilled workers in for next several years in order to absorb the new migrants to the United States.
Note how good ol' Southlaker was able to transition so smoothly to illegal immigration.
It's the "other" that scares, really scares, those folk.
| 172 |
Gus Thu, Jul 29, 2010 3:38:42am |
re: #171 freetoken
First reader comment on the FW Star-Telegram story on this incident:
Note how good ol' Southlaker was able to transition so smoothly to illegal immigration.
It's the "other" that scares, really scares, those folk.
Some stats that the birdbrain could use:
White alone 75.0% 228.2 million
Hispanic or Latino ethnicity, of any race 15.4% 46.9 million
Black or African American alone 12.4% 37.6 million
Some other race alone 4.9% 15.0 million
Asian alone 4.4% 13.4 million
Two or more races 2.3% 7.0 million
American Indian or Alaska Native alone 0.8% 2.4 million
Native Hawaiian or other Pacific Islander alone 0.14% 0.43 million
| 173 |
Kronocide Thu, Jul 29, 2010 3:41:26am |
I'm 'two or more races.' Heinz, but I prefer 'mutt.'
In Hawaii they call it 'poi dog.'
| 174 |
Darth Vader Gargoyle Thu, Jul 29, 2010 3:43:07am |
Good Morning Lizards!
Simpson quote of the day:
Homer: You must love this country more than I love a cold beer on a hot Christmas morning.
| 175 |
RadicalModerate Thu, Jul 29, 2010 3:46:10am |
re: #171 freetoken
First reader comment on the FW Star-Telegram story on this incident:
Note how good ol' Southlaker was able to transition so smoothly to illegal immigration.
It's the "other" that scares, really scares, those folk.
Hmm. That post has neo-Confederate written all over it, with the talk about the "problem of multiculturalism", capitalization of racial descriptors, and nativism.
| 176 |
Gus Thu, Jul 29, 2010 3:53:44am |
re: #175 RadicalModerate
Hmm. That post has neo-Confederate written all over it, with the talk about the "problem of multiculturalism", capitalization of racial descriptors, and nativism.
Or a nationalist with revisionist goggles which is what I saw. I don't think he's figured out that historically, African-Americans weren't immigrants in the traditional sense but brought to America against their will to be slaves used for the construction of a new anglo-European nation. He also mixes religion, the Judeo-Christian meme (Jews make up 2.2 percent of the US population), with this in his assertion of it having been traditionally "black and white". It's a rather convoluted assessment made up of typical post-modern nativist talking points.
| 177 |
freetoken Thu, Jul 29, 2010 3:56:20am |
Possible OUTRAGE! stimulant?
Hiroshima Anniversary Ceremony Gains U.S. Recognition 65 Years After Bomb
Sixty-five years after the U.S. bomber Enola Gay dropped an atomic bomb on Hiroshima, the U.S. ambassador to Japan will attend the city’s annual memorial ceremony for the first time.
Ambassador John Roos will attend the Aug. 6 proceedings, State Department spokesman Philip J. Crowley said in Washington yesterday. “At this particular point, we thought it was the right thing to do,” he said.
The decision may ease political pressure on President Barack Obama, who’s been invited to Hiroshima and Nagasaki, where a second atomic bomb was dropped three days later, said Douglas Paal, vice president for studies at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace in Washington and a former senior director for Asia at the National Security Council. While a trip hasn’t been announced, Obama may visit Japan in November following a meeting in Seoul of the Group of 20 industrialized nations.
“It means Obama doesn’t have to go on an apology tour and endure criticism from the Republicans,” Paal said in an interview.
| 178 |
Gus Thu, Jul 29, 2010 4:04:53am |
re: #177 freetoken
Possible OUTRAGE! stimulant?
Hiroshima Anniversary Ceremony Gains U.S. Recognition 65 Years After Bomb
No doubt. Don't you know that some people would probably think that the US ambassador should avoid Hiroshima for the next 1,000 years -- hypothetically speaking.
| 179 |
ihateronpaul Thu, Jul 29, 2010 4:05:18am |
This is a little thing I like to call "Sean Hannity Logic."
it goes exactly like this:
"WAHHHH! You want to do X? Well you're a hypocrite cause we can't do X in the context of a crazy insane hypothetical I just pulled out of my ass!"
| 180 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Jul 29, 2010 4:38:18am |
re: #177 freetoken
I'm still glad we bombed the shit out of them. Sorry we had to, but glad we did.
| 181 |
RogueOne Thu, Jul 29, 2010 4:39:01am |
re: #55 TheMatrix31
Paul Ryan would be the best.
re: #57 BryanS
As a Wisconson resident, I wholeheartedly agree. Also, pretty insistent in not being interested in the job.
I read an interview with Ryan last week where he said he absolutely wasn't in the running but that people should look at my personal fav, Mitch Daniels.
| 182 |
Darth Vader Gargoyle Thu, Jul 29, 2010 4:40:01am |
re: #181 RogueOne
I read an interview with Ryan last week where he said he absolutely wasn't in the running but that people should look at my personal fav, Mitch Daniels.
Morning Rogue.
You get released from jail yet?
| 183 |
RogueOne Thu, Jul 29, 2010 4:41:10am |
re: #180 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I'm still glad we bombed the shit out of them. Sorry we had to, but glad we did.
I say we do it again! Just to let them know who's still boss.....
| 184 |
RogueOne Thu, Jul 29, 2010 4:41:47am |
re: #182 rwdflynavy
Yeah, was a fun afternoon and evening. You did read that I was just working in there didn't you?
| 185 |
Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Thu, Jul 29, 2010 4:42:23am |
re: #181 RogueOne
I read an interview with Ryan last week where he said he absolutely wasn't in the running but that people should look at my personal fav, Mitch Daniels.
Now that would be interesting. Rumor up here in the wild north country is that Governor Pawlenty may be setting up for a run, as well. Dunno if that'd go over quite so well.
| 186 |
RogueOne Thu, Jul 29, 2010 4:43:51am |
Old story but this argument caught my eye, I hear a lot of my left of center friends use the same argument for a variety of things, usually regarding the 1st and 2nd amendments:
[Link: www.foxnews.com...]
"Right at this moment in history, it's bad form to put it there," he said. "There are things you are allowed to do, but that aren't appropriate to do."
| 187 |
RogueOne Thu, Jul 29, 2010 4:44:45am |
re: #185 thedopefishlives
Now that would be interesting. Rumor up here in the wild north country is that Governor Pawlenty may be setting up for a run, as well. Dunno if that'd go over quite so well.
I really like Daniels. It would be nice to have a non-ideologue grown up in the white house.
| 188 |
Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Thu, Jul 29, 2010 4:52:21am |
re: #187 RogueOne
I really like Daniels. It would be nice to have a non-ideologue grown up in the white house.
Yes, yes it would. My worry is that the immature children currently hogging the national Republican stage won't let him.
| 189 |
RogueOne Thu, Jul 29, 2010 4:54:26am |
re: #188 thedopefishlives
Yes, yes it would. My worry is that the immature children currently hogging the national Republican stage won't let him.
That's pretty much the way it always works. If we could get the repub/dem party bases to just go away for awhile we could get shit fixed.
Have to run, BBIAB....
| 190 |
garhighway Thu, Jul 29, 2010 4:55:16am |
re: #188 thedopefishlives
Yes, yes it would. My worry is that the immature children currently hogging the national Republican stage won't let him.
It seems like any candidate that says AGW is real and creationism ought not be taught as science is DOA in the national Republican Party these days, so the odds of a real-life grownup doing well there are pretty long.
| 192 |
Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Thu, Jul 29, 2010 5:10:18am |
re: #191 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
"White people shouldn't listen to rap music." Words fail me.
/Although I don't think ANYONE should listen to rap music *ducks*
| 193 |
Sol Berdinowitz Thu, Jul 29, 2010 5:37:45am |
re: #191 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I remember a little club-footed German fellow back in the 1930's who tried to tell good Germans what sort of music they were not allowed to listen to...
| 194 |
Spare O'Lake Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:17:49am |
No good mosques,
No ba-ad mosques,
There's no mosques at all,
Just the New York mosques...
Good morning LGF.
| 195 |
NJDhockeyfan Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:31:41am |
Over 30 police slain in Nigeria religious uprising: official
LAGOS — Nigerian police on Wednesday said 32 of its men were murdered a year ago by members of an Islamic sect who launched a religious uprising in which more than 800 people were killed.
The police, in a full-page newspaper advertisement, for the first time listed the names of the officers who died in the uprising in July last year.
"The Nigeria Police Force was stunned at the macabre murder, in cold blood, of her personnel... some of these officers were slaughtered like animals, some roasted," the police said in the one-year anniversary memorial statement.
The sect, also called Boko Haram ('Western education is sin' in local dialect), launched the insurrection in a doomed bid to establish an Islamic state.
| 196 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:37:31am |
Newt seems to abide by this-"Never miss an opportunity, to screw up an opportunity".
Good Morning all.
| 197 |
Remaincalm Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:42:44am |
To recap:
There is already a mosque in that neighborhood, so all this new outrage is trumped up dog-whistle manipulation.
The proposed community center location is not at “ground zero” but is two city blocks away, with several large buildings between the two sites blocking even the view between them.
The builders have no obligation to make their funding sources public any more than you are required to prove the source of your income when you purchase proerty, whether it is a new home or a new iPod.
The proposed community center and mosque meets all requirements for construction established by local elected authorities elected by the people of New York who are actually affected by new construction there.
The citizens who want to build this project had nothing to do with the crimes of 9/11, except for the vague connection of professing a version of the same faith that the 9/11 criminals also claim to have professed. The citizens who want to build this project have committed no crimes. The project does not deprive any citizens of their Constitutionally-guaranteed rights.
A citizen’s right to peaceably assemble, right to worship and right to hold property do not disappear because of emotions felt by other citizens.
If you support the Constitution, you should support these citizens rights, even if it galls you.
| 198 |
lawhawk Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:51:02am |
re: #197 Remaincalm
Yup. That pretty much sums it up (and repeats much of what I've been saying since this first came up). The project isn't going to be derailed by an LPC vote either - as the group can simply alter its plans accordingly. The project isn't in Ground Zero, and there are no laws that would prohibit such construction.
Ex Tea Party candidate for gov in NY, Carl Paladino, says that the state or city should condemn the site via eminent domain to turn it into a war memorial (on grounds that the site was hit by parts from one of the planes that blew up the Twin Towers), but under that theory, pretty much all 20-30 surrounding buildings should be demolished and turned into a memorial - including the one that I work in.
Around Ground Zero, the issue is pretty much a nonissue - with everyone focusing on the pace of construction, which is finally getting aboveground in many parts - and there's visible signs of construction. The block on which the mosque and community center is to be located is a drab and dreary site - the rest of the block is lacking the typical vibrant life seen elsewhere in Lower Manhattan - and a community center is sorely needed downtown.
The only part on which I'm hesitant is the sources of funding - and the Cordoba House backers need to do much more community outreach to show that they're not obtaining funding from sources that might be connected to terror groups - such as charities that are little more than front groups to Hamas. They need to be much more sensitive to the community's concerns - and the image and appearances of dedicating the facility on 9/11 of all dates - even if the date is merely coincidental.
| 199 |
lawhawk Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:53:01am |
Lawyer: We're only interested in Anna Fermanova's case because she's a hottie.
Me: Not that there's anything wrong with that - but the facts don't match up with her version of events and the equipment she was caught smuggling out of the country aren't for use by hunters - they're meant to be sniper scopes for taking out targets at extreme ranges.
| 200 |
Spare O'Lake Thu, Jul 29, 2010 6:57:00am |
re: #197 Remaincalm
...If you support the Constitution, you should support these citizens rights, even if it galls you.
Granted. Now tell me please, is it possible for the 14-storey Park 51 mosque/Muslim community centre to "gall" anyone who is NOT a bigot?
| 202 |
lawhawk Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:05:48am |
Time: The hype of ecological Armageddon resulting from the Deepwater Horizon doesn't match the reality.
That's not without controversy as among those claiming that the disaster isn't as bad as hyped is someone who is quite familiar with playing the role of running against the conventional wisdom:
[Ivor] Van Heerden is controversial in Louisiana, so I should mention that this isn't the first time he and [Paul] Kemp helped persuade me the conventional wisdom about a big story was wrong. Shortly after Hurricane Katrina, when the Army Corps of Engineers was still insisting that a gigantic surge had overwhelmed its levees, they gave me a tour that debunked the prevailing narrative, demonstrating that most of the breached floodwalls showed no signs of overtopping. Eventually, the Corps admitted that they were right, that the surge in New Orleans was not so gigantic, that engineering failures had drowned the city. But there was still a lot of resentment down here of Van Heerden and his big mouth, especially after he wrote an I-told-you-so book about Katrina. He made powerful enemies at LSU, lost his faculty job, and is now suing the university. Meanwhile, he's been trashed locally as a BP shill ever since he downplayed the spill in a video on BP's website.
| 203 |
Achilles Tang Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:05:56am |
re: #1 LudwigVanQuixote
And this is the sound of freedoms dying.
There was a time when we claimed moral superiority over the Saudis because no right thinking American would breath a word against freedom of religion.
Unfortunately, he is able to talk like that because the perception is that this is funded by Saudi, and similar political/cultural attitudes. If one believes it is a Saudi project, then it become a political issue as much as a religious one.
I don't understand why there is not more transparency from the organizers of this project.
| 204 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:07:46am |
re: #203 Naso Tang
Unfortunately, he is able to talk like that because the perception is that this is funded by Saudi, and similar political/cultural attitudes. If one believes it is a Saudi project, then it become a political issue as much as a religious one.
I don't understand why there is not more transparency from the organizers of this project.
Maybe they don't think they're beholden to obey a bunch of screaming talking heads?
(Look what happens when the USDA and NAACP listen to them, even if it is just temporary!)
| 205 |
lawhawk Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:07:53am |
re: #203 Naso Tang
It would make sense from a PR standpoint to be far more forthcoming - to say that there's nothing to hide and here's what we're doing. It would defuse the arguments by the SIOE and the bigots who are claiming that the project is a Wahabi/Salafist attempt to show dominion over Ground Zero (even though the proposal's backers have a mosque about a mile north that was founded in the 1980s.
| 206 |
jordash1212 Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:08:04am |
I thought Sam Huntington's "Clash of Civilizations" thesis was debunked a while ago...
| 207 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:09:36am |
re: #202 lawhawk
Time: The hype of ecological Armageddon resulting from the Deepwater Horizon doesn't match the reality.
That's not without controversy as among those claiming that the disaster isn't as bad as hyped is someone who is quite familiar with playing the role of running against the conventional wisdom:
Crickets...
| 208 |
darthstar Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:11:05am |
Happy Thursday, everyone...and you know what Thursday means, right? Yep...Gail Collins time. Love that woman's writing style. Funny without being mean. Today's piece is on how the Bushes & Clintons (and Carter), love 'em or hate 'em, managed to produce very nice kids...and there's one small parenthetical to Bristol that should give her professional victim mother weeks of material to complain about.
Read it...it's actually quite nice.
| 209 |
Achilles Tang Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:11:57am |
re: #204 oaktree
Maybe they don't think they're beholden to obey a bunch of screaming talking heads?
(Look what happens when the USDA and NAACP listen to them, even if it is just temporary!)
When everyone talks themselves into a corner any action becomes one of losing face. My position is that I would not like a foreign theocracy funded Islamic center, since that is by definition a political strategy.
I have no problem with American Muslims anywhere in the USA.
| 210 |
Spare O'Lake Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:13:27am |
re: #204 oaktree
Maybe they don't think they're beholden to obey a bunch of screaming talking heads?
(Look what happens when the USDA and NAACP listen to them, even if it is just temporary!)
You are correct. Why should they have to kiss kafir ass? After all, this is America and they have their rights!
| 211 |
lawhawk Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:14:04am |
re: #207 Walter L. Newton
If anything it looks like Deepwater Horizon matches the kind of situation seen following the Ixtoc disaster in the 1970s - which until Deepwater, was one of the worst spills in history (and largest in the Gulf until Deepwater). And in the Ixtoc disaster, the ecology seems to have recovered fairly quickly.
There is less known about how it affected the deepwater ecology though.
| 213 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:14:44am |
re: #200 Spare O'Lake
Granted. Now tell me please, is it possible for the 14-storey Park 51 mosque/Muslim community centre to "gall" anyone who is NOT a bigot?
Possibly.
But we don't go around revoking construction licenses just because of an excess of gall...
| 214 |
Stanghazi Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:17:44am |
re: #203 Naso Tang
Unfortunately, he is able to talk like that because the perception is that this is funded by Saudi, and similar political/cultural attitudes. If one believes it is a Saudi project, then it become a political issue as much as a religious one.
I don't understand why there is not more transparency from the organizers of this project.
As Newt sits on the stage of Fox News, owned partially by a Saudi. Ridiculous.
| 215 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:19:03am |
re: #213 jamesfirecat
Possibly.
But we don't go around revoking construction licenses just because of an excess of gall...
If Mothra was the correct species and there was a big enough goldenrod plant around there could be a gall built that would threaten Manhattan outright. Would that be enough of an excess to revoke the building permit?
/ ;) (a bit punchy this morning... need more coffee)
| 216 |
darthstar Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:22:31am |
re: #215 oaktree
If Mothra was the correct species and there was a big enough goldenrod plant around there could be a gall built that would threaten Manhattan outright. Would that be enough of an excess to revoke the building permit?
/ ;) (a bit punchy this morning... need more coffee)
I love Mothra. That's what I always call girls when I see them with the fairy wings...I'll say, "Oh, look! Mothra!"
| 217 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:24:27am |
| 218 |
darthstar Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:24:41am |
re: #211 lawhawk
I still think BP should pay out their sphincter for every conceivable expense related to this disaster...and I mean that literally.
| 219 |
cineaste Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:25:08am |
re: #23 SanFranciscoZionist
It's ridiculous. Hey, Newt! Saudi Arabia also won't permit women to drive. Let's refuse to give women driver's licenses until they shape up in SA!
I believe the correct analogy would be for us to let only women drive.
Newt was also blogging & tweeting yesterday about how evil courts are for overturning laws passed by elected legislatures. That they're anti-freedom. It's insane, so in one day he's showing he doesn't understand separation of powers and freedom of religion...
| 220 |
lawhawk Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:26:07am |
re: #217 oaktree
Angering the Supreme Court, violating Court rules and procedures, and engaging in conspiracy nonsense? That's a sure way to get yourself disbarred and slapped with all manner of penalties.
And it couldn't happen to a nicer person.
| 221 |
lawhawk Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:28:25am |
re: #218 darthstar
I agree - and the tax law should be amended such that penalties and losses imposed by environmental disasters can't be written off in the same way as other losses - compounding the penalties and discouraging the mindset that led to the disaster.
| 222 |
Spare O'Lake Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:29:21am |
re: #214 Stanley Sea
As Newt sits on the stage of Fox News, owned partially by a Saudi. Ridiculous.
There are those who think the mosque should proceed even if it is to be funded by Saudi islamists.
| 223 |
darthstar Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:33:00am |
re: #222 Spare O'Lake
There are those who think the mosque should proceed even if it is to be funded by Saudi islamists.
*raises hand* - Just because their Saudis doesn't make them terrorists.
| 224 |
darthstar Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:33:38am |
re: #223 darthstar
*raises hand* - Just because
theirthey're Saudis doesn't make them terrorists.
PIMF
| 225 |
Nervous Norvous Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:34:04am |
re: #219 cineaste
I believe the correct analogy would be for us to let only women drive.
Newt was also blogging & tweeting yesterday about how evil courts are for overturning laws passed by elected legislatures. That they're anti-freedom. It's insane, so in one day he's showing he doesn't understand separation of powers and freedom of religion...
I continue to wonder whether he really believes his own bullshit.
| 226 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:34:13am |
re: #222 Spare O'Lake
There are those who think the mosque should proceed even if it is to be funded by Saudi islamists.
Have we ever refused to give someone a building permit for similar reasons?
Is there a law which it being funded by Saudi Islamists would violate?
| 227 |
Stanghazi Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:34:48am |
re: #222 Spare O'Lake
There are those who think the mosque should proceed even if it is to be funded by Saudi islamists.
Who are "those"
| 228 |
darthstar Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:35:25am |
re: #226 jamesfirecat
Have we ever refused to give someone a building permit for similar reasons?
Is there a law which it being funded by Saudi Islamists would violate?
It'll turn the union plumbers and electricians doing work on the building into "suiciders!"
| 229 |
Stanghazi Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:37:19am |
And we learned the other day that federal prisoner No. 84888-054, a k a Bernard B. Kerik, is also firmly opposed to this center. Mr. Kerik, the former police commissioner, said as much via Twitter from a medium-security prison in Cumberland, Md. A spokesman for the federal Bureau of Prisons speculated that a relative or friend may have transmitted the message; inmates are forbidden access to the Internet, Twitter included.It was interesting to discover that Mr. Kerik considers it an outrage to have a Muslim center near ground zero. You may recall the disclosures about his post-9/11 trysts with his book publisher, Judith Regan. He had no qualms about taking her to an apartment overlooking the World Trade Center site that was supposed to be reserved for exhausted rescue workers. That, somehow, did not dishonor the dead.
It’s a good thing we were paying attention back in grade school. Otherwise, we might feel it is O.K. to take Mr. Kerik to task for having had illicit sex at ground zero.
LOL, hypocrites!
| 230 |
Nervous Norvous Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:37:24am |
re: #227 Stanley Sea
Who are "those"
They are the relatives of "some" as in "some say that Glenn Beck is a wanker of the first order."
| 231 |
Gus Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:38:09am |
re: #209 Naso Tang
When everyone talks themselves into a corner any action becomes one of losing face. My position is that I would not like a foreign theocracy funded Islamic center, since that is by definition a political strategy.
I have no problem with American Muslims anywhere in the USA.
Yes. Because we know that there are no religions with political strategies with the exception of Islam.
| 232 |
lawhawk Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:39:51am |
re: #226 jamesfirecat
If you can find a Saudi group that is on one of the State Department lists of terrorists , then it would violate several federal laws relating to funding/providing material support to terror groups, etc.
| 233 |
captdiggs Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:40:33am |
I notice the name change to "Park 51".
I guess they realized the "Cordoba House" was not helping out due to its connotations of the Caliphate and the Islamic conquest of the Andalusian peninsula.
| 234 |
darthstar Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:40:55am |
re: #230 PT Barnum
They are the relatives of "some" as in "some say that Glenn Beck is a wanker of the first order."
I disagree. They are relatives of the "some" who think that Glenn Beck is NOT a wanker of the first order.
| 235 |
Gus Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:41:39am |
| 236 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:41:55am |
re: #232 lawhawk
If you can find a Saudi group that is on one of the State Department lists of terrorists , then it would violate several federal laws relating to funding/providing material support to terror groups, etc.
Well then tis a fair cop. Lets have the necessary people investigate (if they aren't already) and sort out the truth from fiction. Until then lets make this about "the building of this Mosque would violate laws X Y and Z" instead of "its stabbing the heartland!"
| 237 |
jordash1212 Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:42:11am |
re: #232 lawhawk
It's a little more complicated than that. It's not as linear as Saudi terror-related group funds controversial Mosque near ground-zero. There are quite a few bank accounts, Islamic altruism groups, and other non-profit groups involved in transferring that money.
| 238 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:42:33am |
When you search for "mosques in new york city" on Google Maps, on top of the search results is a Sponsored Link that reads:
Defend New York
Tell Andrew Cuomo
To investigate the Cordoba Mosque
www.Lazio.com
That's Rick Lazio...
| 239 |
captdiggs Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:43:18am |
| 240 |
Obdicut Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:43:32am |
re: #233 captdiggs
It wasn't helping due to the ignorant thinking that's what it symbolizes, rather than realizing Cordoba was a liberal place of-- for the time period-- great religious tolerance.
Tell me, if Cordoba is such a sign of Islamic oppression, why didn't the Spanish change the name of the city?
| 241 |
lawhawk Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:43:46am |
re: #229 Stanley Sea
And it's overlooking in the same way that the Cordoba House proposal would be overlooking Ground Zero. The apartment was at 99 Battery Place, which was slightly further away from Ground Zero than the proposed Cordoba House.
| 242 |
Gus Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:44:14am |
re: #239 captdiggs
I never realized that the car was connected to an Islamic religious project.
Thank you for that information.//
It came with optional corrrrrrinthian leather!
| 243 |
lawhawk Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:46:17am |
re: #237 jordash1212
I didn't say it was that simple. I recognize that there are money transactions (Hawala) that make trying to track down where the money is coming from and who is providing the financing. If law enforcement thinks that there is shady dealings, then they will take appropriate actions. Thus far, Andrew Cuomo hasn't seen the need for an investigation.
That could change if the facts warrant it.
| 244 |
darthstar Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:46:44am |
re: #237 jordash1212
It's a little more complicated than that. It's not as linear as Saudi terror-related group funds controversial Mosque near ground-zero. There are quite a few bank accounts, Islamic altruism groups, and other non-profit groups involved in transferring that money.
It's all part of the conspiracy!
| 245 |
captdiggs Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:47:01am |
re: #240 Obdicut
It wasn't helping due to the ignorant thinking that's what it symbolizes, rather than realizing Cordoba was a liberal place of-- for the time period-- great religious tolerance.
Cordoba was also the scene of an Islamic pogrom against the Jews in the 11th century.
Thousands were massacred.
| 246 |
Nervous Norvous Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:47:13am |
re: #234 darthstar
I disagree. They are relatives of the "some" who think that Glenn Beck is NOT a wanker of the first order.
This is true.
| 247 |
Cineaste Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:48:28am |
re: #225 PT Barnum
I continue to wonder whether he really believes his own bullshit.
It does feel like a giant put-on to play for relevancy, no? Like he knows it's all populist BS but he also knows that if he wants to get back into politics he has to find a base so he's willing to abandon common sense in favor of power.
| 248 |
jordash1212 Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:48:41am |
re: #245 captdiggs
And then both the Muslims and the Jews found themselves expelled or murdered by the sword of Christianity 500 years later. They both escaped to Palestine, amongst other places.
| 249 |
Cineaste Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:49:29am |
re: #226 jamesfirecat
Have we ever refused to give someone a building permit for similar reasons?
Is there a law which it being funded by Saudi Islamists would violate?
I know there are laws against us funding terrorists but I don't think there are any prohibiting terrorists funding us!
| 252 |
lawhawk Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:51:10am |
re: #249 Cineaste
"Terrorists funding us" would still fall under the providing material support provisions - since we'd be enabling the terrorists to spread their message, expand their operations, etc.
| 253 |
Obdicut Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:51:14am |
re: #245 captdiggs
Cordoba was also the scene of an Islamic pogrom against the Jews in the 11th century.
Thousands were massacred.
That was after the fall of the Caliphate, under the Al-homad's, way after the time that Cordoba was a flourishing city. And it's really hard to pick out a single pogrom against the Jews in Europe during that time, given how enthusiastically the Christians were killing Jews.
Why on earth would you think the name Cordoba refers to the brief, less illustrious period under al-homad rule, and not under the Caliphate?
| 254 |
jordash1212 Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:51:22am |
re: #250 captdiggs
That makes me a bit hesitant to dwell on Muslim violence. No party was innocent, and that should have nothing to do with building a mosque near Ground Zero. I see the whole Cordoba comparison is a bit of a stretch.
| 255 |
Obdicut Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:54:00am |
And by the al-homads, I, of course, mean the Almohads.
Sheesh Need coffee.
| 256 |
Gus Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:54:22am |
What are we going to judge the motivations of people and/or groups due to the ancient history of the particular name?
There's a Cordoba University in Ashburn, Virginia and it's also an Islamic institution:
Cordoba University is an Islamic university located in Ashburn, Virginia. The university is made up of the Graduate School of Islamic and Social Sciences (GSISS) and Cordoba School of Professional Studies. GSISS is part of a United States Department of Defense program for training Muslim military chaplains which produced the United States Marine Corps' first Muslim chaplain. GSISS is an affiliate member of the Washington Theological Consortium.
[Link: www.cordobauniversity.org...]
So here we have Cordoba University, meets the DoD, meets the Pentagon which happened to be attacked on 9-11.
What does it all mean?
| 257 |
darthstar Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:55:57am |
| 258 |
Gus Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:56:32am |
re: #257 darthstar
What do you expect from a muslim state like Al Abama?
/
It's in the Bible Belt to boot.
| 259 |
lawhawk Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:56:57am |
re: #256 Gus 802
Let's consult the nut-firm of Taitz, Jones, and Beck. ///////
| 260 |
Spare O'Lake Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:57:03am |
re: #253 Obdicut
Why on earth did they change the name at all? Perhaps the Cordoban pogrom factored into the decision.
| 261 |
jordash1212 Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:57:06am |
Perhaps I should clarify my point. There was as much peaceful living between the three Abrahamic religions. Hopefully by calling it the Cordoba House reminds people of the peaceful times and not the religious violence.
And Gus802, we have to keep history in mind. The three Abrahamic religions are intertwined in their essence and in their history, both in peace and in violence. We can choose if we want to dwell on the negative or the positive aspects of that history.
| 262 |
Nervous Norvous Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:58:24am |
re: #256 Gus 802
What are we going to judge the motivations of people and/or groups due to the ancient history of the particular name?
There's a Cordoba University in Ashburn, Virginia and it's also an Islamic institution:
[Link: www.cordobauniversity.org...]
So here we have Cordoba University, meets the DoD, meets the Pentagon which happened to be attacked on 9-11.
What does it all mean?
It means the cockroaches, (who were and are in all those places) are really behind everything. This can be proven by the fact that if you take the words "Little Debbie" and add the word rug, it spells out "Big Bugs Rule the Elite"
| 263 |
Gus Thu, Jul 29, 2010 7:59:51am |
re: #260 Spare O'Lake
Why on earth did they change the name at all? Perhaps the Cordoban pogrom factored into the decision.
It could very well have been done for business purposes. They may want to attract retail on the ground level for all we know. They still list the Cordoba House on their website:
[Link: www.park51.org...]
| 264 |
captdiggs Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:00:35am |
re: #253 Obdicut
I'm not defending medieval Christianity.
I am merely pointing out that the "golden age" of Islamic "tolerance" was not as golden as some believe.
The point here is, that the proponents of the mosque/Islamic center were savvy enough of the historical reality to change the name of their project.
| 265 |
Obdicut Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:00:53am |
re: #260 Spare O'Lake
Why on earth did they change the name at all? Perhaps the Cordoban pogrom factored into the decision.
As I said, they changed it do to the attacks they've come under from the ignorant who think that Cordoba is in some way a sign of Islamic oppression and conquest, rather than the name of one of the cities that flourished during the most tolerant, ecumenical, open periods of Islamic rule anywhere.
It's sad when ignorance prevails like that, but it's all too often the case these days.
I mean, the group building this temple are Sufis, and the Almohad's were fundamentalists much more similar to the Wahabists. It'd take a rather obvious stretch of mind to assume that Cordoba was a reference to the very brief-- and quickly defeated-- Almohad control of the city.
| 266 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:01:35am |
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
Worrisome news about the ocean. Very worrisome, as the oceans are absorbing more heat and more heat.
| 267 |
Obdicut Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:02:03am |
re: #264 captdiggs
I'm not defending medieval Christianity.
I am merely pointing out that the "golden age" of Islamic "tolerance" was not as golden as some believe.
The point here is, that the proponents of the mosque/Islamic center were savvy enough of the historical reality to change the name of their project.
As who believes? It was very tolerant-- for its time. It's a scalar value.
And no, the point is that they changed the name due to the gross ignorance of others. It's a sad thing, that should be regretted.
| 268 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:02:10am |
re: #249 Cineaste
I know there are laws against us funding terrorists but I don't think there are any prohibiting terrorists funding us!
But that would mean then that we were the Soviet Union -- and that the commies had snuck in and won!
///
| 269 |
captdiggs Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:04:16am |
re: #267 Obdicut
A
And no, the point is that they changed the name due to the gross ignorance of others.
I don't believe that for one second.
| 270 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:04:34am |
re: #262 PT Barnum
It means the cockroaches, (who were and are in all those places) are really behind everything. This can be proven by the fact that if you take the words "Little Debbie" and add the word rug, it spells out "Big Bugs Rule the Elite"
And if anyone ever understood the humbugs, it was PT Barnum...
;)
| 271 |
Obdicut Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:05:16am |
re: #269 captdiggs
I don't believe that for one second.
I know you don't, due.
But why? Why on earth do you think the reference is to the Almohads, who have nothing to do with these Sufis, rather than the tolerant, academically brilliant, culturally vibrant period under the caliphate?
| 272 |
RogueOne Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:06:08am |
Is this a great country or what? I had a second hearing on the protective order trying to save the guys job (a compromise with the SiL) and unintentionally made it worse on the guy, HAHAHA.
| 273 |
Gus Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:07:08am |
re: #269 captdiggs
I don't believe that for one second.
Anywho. Cordoba House, Park51, EIEIO: it's not on "Ground Zero."
| 274 |
darthstar Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:08:45am |
Bobby Jindal gets his ass handed to him by the Times-Picayune
At a press conference supporting his wish to narrow Gulf passes with rock jetties in an attempt to keep oil out of interior marshes, Gov. Bobby Jindal said this: "No one can convince us that rocks in the water are more dangerous than oil. That is absolutely ridiculous. The only people who believe that are the bureaucrats in Washington, D.C., who can't see the oil, smell the oil or touch the oil."That's not even close to the truth, as Gov. Jindal surely knew. But I'm not surprised.
That misinformation is in keeping with the governor's response to this disaster, which has often been a mixture of diversion, fur coat attitude and panic -- all of which is doing terrible long-term damage to our chances of survival on this starving delta.
And that's just the start of the article...
| 275 |
Gus Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:11:44am |
re: #274 darthstar
Bobby Jindal gets his ass handed to him by the Times-Picayune
And that's just the start of the article...
Bobby Jindal would bring water to a gasoline fire.
/
| 276 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:13:12am |
re: #275 Gus 802
Bobby Jindal would bring water to a gasoline fire.
/
I think you mean a grease fire.
| 277 |
RogueOne Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:14:49am |
The state of Indiana kicks ass. A 2 yr protective order based solely on my word and the kicker is he has to pay the $150 fee that it costs. The judge called it a "sex offense" even though she is legally of age. What matters is what I want since she is a minor and I'm the guardian. He has 30 days to contest the order. I'm heading now to tell him in person that if he contests the order I'll destroy him. I'll make sure he ends up on the sex offender registry. Who is the judge going to believe, me with my background or him?
| 278 |
Spare O'Lake Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:15:33am |
re: #271 Obdicut
We are in fact currently at war with the radical Islamists who hunger for the return of the "caliphate", are we not? Radical Islam funded and supplied the 9-11 terrorists and is today killing American soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq and Jews in Israel, all in the name of the "caliphate".
Granted that moderate Muslims have their legal right to build their mosques wherever they want so let's just leave it at that...and cut a little slack to those people who choose not to sing Kumbaya at this particular moment.
| 279 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:18:49am |
Hey Newt,
Guess what? There are a bunch of Churches over there. Not in Mecca but but after all that is just one city. In fact there are so many they have a big Council.
[Link: www.mec-churches.org...]
Maybe I should page this.
| 280 |
Obdicut Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:23:56am |
re: #278 Spare O'Lake
We are in fact currently at war with the radical Islamists who hunger for the return of the "caliphate", are we not?
Nope, not that caliphate. You see, the Caliphate that controlled Cordoba was, as I said, ecumenical and tolerant for its time.
Radical Islam funded and supplied the 9-11 terrorists and is today killing American soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq and Jews in Israel, all in the name of the "caliphate".
Not really, no-- they mostly kill in the name of Allah-- and when they do talk about a Caliphate they're referring to a very different Caliphate. You do know there isn't any one Caliphate, right? It refers to a system of government, and there have been like eight of them.
Granted that moderate Muslims have their legal right to build their mosques wherever they want so let's just leave it at that...and cut a little slack to those people who choose not to sing Kumbaya at this particular moment.
I'll not cut slack for the ignorant, no.
| 281 |
Nervous Norvous Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:24:00am |
re: #270 oaktree
And if anyone ever understood the humbugs, it was PT Barnum...
;)
Barnum saw no problem with "humbug" or hype. He had a real problem with outright deception. He was one of the first debunkers of the spiritualists.
I think he'd be completely appalled by Fox News.
| 282 |
Nervous Norvous Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:25:27am |
well my file is downloaded so I need to go to work. Later.
| 283 |
RogueOne Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:25:34am |
re: #279 Rightwingconspirator
Hey Newt,
Guess what? There are a bunch of Churches over there. Not in Mecca but but after all that is just one city. In fact there are so many they have a big Council.
[Link: www.mec-churches.org...]Maybe I should page this.
What do you mean by "over there"? Did I miss something about Newt claiming there were not christian churches in the ME?
| 284 |
RogueOne Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:26:29am |
re: #278 Spare O'Lake
We are in fact currently at war with the radical Islamists who hunger for the return of the "caliphate", are we not? Radical Islam funded and supplied the 9-11 terrorists and is today killing American soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq and Jews in Israel, all in the name of the "caliphate".
Granted that moderate Muslims have their legal right to build their mosques wherever they want so let's just leave it at that...and cut a little slack to those people who choose not to sing Kumbaya at this particular moment.
I agree with everything but the bolded portion. No one has the right to build a church wherever they please.
| 285 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:28:49am |
| 286 |
Lidane Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:30:10am |
re: #256 Gus 802
So here we have Cordoba University, meets the DoD, meets the Pentagon which happened to be attacked on 9-11.
What does it all mean?
OLIGARHY!
Well, that's what the almighty blackboard tells me. =P
| 287 |
RogueOne Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:30:28am |
re: #280 Obdicut
Lets try to be clear about the terminology and philosophy here. There has never been a global caliphate which is the ultimate goal of the followers of Islam.
| 288 |
garhighway Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:32:21am |
re: #198 lawhawk
Yup. That pretty much sums it up (and repeats much of what I've been saying since this first came up). The project isn't going to be derailed by an LPC vote either - as the group can simply alter its plans accordingly. The project isn't in Ground Zero, and there are no laws that would prohibit such construction.
Ex Tea Party candidate for gov in NY, Carl Paladino, says that the state or city should condemn the site via eminent domain to turn it into a war memorial (on grounds that the site was hit by parts from one of the planes that blew up the Twin Towers), but under that theory, pretty much all 20-30 surrounding buildings should be demolished and turned into a memorial - including the one that I work in.
Around Ground Zero, the issue is pretty much a nonissue - with everyone focusing on the pace of construction, which is finally getting aboveground in many parts - and there's visible signs of construction. The block on which the mosque and community center is to be located is a drab and dreary site - the rest of the block is lacking the typical vibrant life seen elsewhere in Lower Manhattan - and a community center is sorely needed downtown.
The only part on which I'm hesitant is the sources of funding - and the Cordoba House backers need to do much more community outreach to show that they're not obtaining funding from sources that might be connected to terror groups - such as charities that are little more than front groups to Hamas. They need to be much more sensitive to the community's concerns - and the image and appearances of dedicating the facility on 9/11 of all dates - even if the date is merely coincidental.
I wonder what Paladino's position on "eminent domain abuse" is otherwise? Is he a "we should overturn Kelo" guy? And how would such a person reconcile these two positions?
| 289 |
Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:34:01am |
Hi Everyone
I'd posted yesterday that a friend had gone missing. Her body was found last night, 2 people arrested.
I just don't know what else to say... so I'm going to go for a bit
| 290 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:34:14am |
| 291 |
Stanghazi Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:34:37am |
re: #289 bloodstar
Hi Everyone
I'd posted yesterday that a friend had gone missing. Her body was found last night, 2 people arrested.
I just don't know what else to say... so I'm going to go for a bit
Oh shit.
| 292 |
RogueOne Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:35:20am |
re: #289 bloodstar
Hi Everyone
I'd posted yesterday that a friend had gone missing. Her body was found last night, 2 people arrested.
I just don't know what else to say... so I'm going to go for a bit
What a shame. The world is a fucked up place sometimes.
| 293 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:35:35am |
re: #289 bloodstar
Nail their asses to the wall.
| 294 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:35:39am |
re: #283 RogueOne
I mean in the ME, albeit not Mecca. Kinda pulls the rug out from under his argument.
| 296 |
Lidane Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:38:13am |
re: #294 Rightwingconspirator
I mean in the ME, albeit not Mecca. Kinda pulls the rug out from under his argument.
A lot of things pull the rug out from under Newt's argument-- logic, common sense, a functional IQ over 100, etc.
| 297 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:38:41am |
re: #294 Rightwingconspirator
I mean in the ME, albeit not Mecca. Kinda pulls the rug out from under his argument.
Aren't bibles banned in Saudi Arabia? (albeit not on US installations)
| 298 |
RogueOne Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:38:56am |
re: #294 Rightwingconspirator
I mean in the ME, albeit not Mecca. Kinda pulls the rug out from under his argument.
I wasn't really paying attention but I thought his argument was about SA.
| 299 |
prairiefire Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:39:40am |
re: #289 bloodstar
I'm very sorry for your loss, bloodstar.
| 301 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:43:47am |
re: #289 bloodstar
Hi Everyone
I'd posted yesterday that a friend had gone missing. Her body was found last night, 2 people arrested.
I just don't know what else to say... so I'm going to go for a bit
Damn that just... that just sucks......
| 302 |
Lidane Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:44:10am |
re: #300 Stanley Sea
Shirley is going to sue Buttbart!!
Good. That asshole deserves to get dragged into court for what he did to her.
| 303 |
Gus Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:46:21am |
re: #300 Stanley Sea
Shirley is going to sue Buttbart!!
Checkmate!
Great news. Here's hoping she wins.
| 304 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:48:05am |
re: #302 Lidane
Breitbart will most likely lose but he'll claim martyr status.
| 305 |
lawhawk Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:48:55am |
re: #288 garhighway
He'd argue that this isn't a Kelo situation because it would be a public taking for public purposes - for building a war memorial, rather than a Kelo taking which was a public taking of private land for a private developer (Pfizer).
It would still raise all the usual eminent domain issues though (whether it is a justifiable taking, compensation, etc.).
| 306 |
Achilles Tang Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:49:55am |
re: #231 Gus 802
Yes. Because we know that there are no religions with political strategies with the exception of Islam.
I don't know of any theocracies of significance other than Islamic ones (unless you want to count the religion of communism).
That there are others who would like to establish theocracies is irrelevant.
| 307 |
Kronocide Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:50:18am |
re: #304 Killgore Trout
Breitbart will most likely lose but he'll claim martyr status.
Hell yes the Kenyan Illuminazis are after him!
| 308 |
Gus Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:51:02am |
re: #306 Naso Tang
I don't know of any theocracies of significance other than Islamic ones (unless you want to count the religion of communism).
That there are others who would like to establish theocracies is irrelevant.
Correct. There's no such thing as the Religious Right in the USA and they have no influence on politics in America.
| 309 |
Lidane Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:52:35am |
re: #304 Killgore Trout
Breitbart will most likely lose but he'll claim martyr status.
He'd claim martyr status even if he won.
Getting sued means he gets to set up a "legal defense fund" and raise a bunch of money from the rubes who buy into his bullshit, so it's win-win for him. No matter what happens, he gets more publicity.
Still, she's entitled to justice after what he did.
| 310 |
Stanghazi Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:52:41am |
re: #304 Killgore Trout
Breitbart will most likely lose but he'll claim martyr status.
I want to see if he was paid by Fox.
| 311 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:54:31am |
re: #289 bloodstar
Hi Everyone
I'd posted yesterday that a friend had gone missing. Her body was found last night, 2 people arrested.
I just don't know what else to say... so I'm going to go for a bit
:(
My condolences for her family and friends. 21-years-old is much too soon to go, and especially in the manner that it sounds like it happened.
| 312 |
SpaceJesus Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:55:44am |
re: #209 Naso Tang
you fund those exact same theocracies every time you fill up your gas tank.
just think of it as your money coming back to you in a different form.
| 313 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:57:23am |
re: #310 Stanley Sea
I want to see if he was paid by Fox.
Probably not but I suspect his source for the video will be interesting. The person who tipped him to the video could end up being some ugly white supremacist. It will probably also come out that he edited the video himself and knew the full context when he posted the video.
| 314 |
Gus Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:57:39am |
Andrew Breitbart beclowns himself and later gets sued.
Film @ 11.
Whine stocks go up. More news later on.
| 315 |
lawhawk Thu, Jul 29, 2010 8:58:13am |
Meanwhile, Rep Charles Rangel (D-NY) seems to think that today will be the worst day of his life since the Korean war as he awaits the House ethics panel's findings at 1pm unless he cuts a deal sooner.
Right. It's all about you. Rangel broke so many laws in so many different ways it's hard to keep track. We could focus on the tax evasion at the federal, state, or local level. Or the rent stabilized apartments he was not entitled to. Or the failure to report junkets as per House rules.
Or using House letterhead to solicit donations for a Charles Rangel Center for Politics in CUNY.
He's been trying to cut a deal that avoids any kind of liability that opens the door to criminal prosecution, but given the number of charges and scope of his malfeasance, it would be quite the undertaking to avoid admitting to some criminality - particularly when the number and type of charges are so serious.
| 316 |
Kronocide Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:03:30am |
re: #290 Cannadian Club Akbar
And then there is this...
[Link: www.bradleymanning.org...]
Wow, this is getting ugly. Sorta like Breitbart: when blowback occurs play the victim and hero with equal vigor.
| 319 |
Jeff In Ohio Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:08:59am |
So, back to the topic. Does Gingrich still bang anything that moves? I think Lindsey (Lohan, not Graham) and Newt would make a great couple. Kind of like a Carville/Matlin, except Lyndsey has not entered the Skeletor phase.
| 320 |
Taqyia2Me Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:23:17am |
re: #289 bloodstar
I am so sorry to hear this. Prayers going out for you, her family and her friends.
| 321 |
abolitionist Thu, Jul 29, 2010 9:25:18am |
re: #81 sagehen
And in 1934, the nazis weren't at all what we came to know to them later. They hadn't killed anybody, or invaded anyone, or built any camps...
Wrong. Check out Night of the long knives - summer, 1934.
| 322 |
abolitionist Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:06:18am |
| 323 |
CuriousLurker Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:43:53am |
re: #289 bloodstar
Hi Everyone
I'd posted yesterday that a friend had gone missing. Her body was found last night, 2 people arrested.
I just don't know what else to say... so I'm going to go for a bit
Very sorry to hear about this, bloodstar. My condolences to you & her family.
| 324 |
Achilles Tang Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:45:23am |
re: #308 Gus 802
Correct. There's no such thing as the Religious Right in the USA and they have no influence on politics in America.
Why do you misrepresent what I say?
There's a difference between domestic politics and foreign nations attempting side door methods to achieve similar ends.
I don't in fact have evidence of that, but I have plenty of reasons to think it may be so.
| 325 |
Achilles Tang Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:48:35am |
re: #312 SpaceJesus
you fund those exact same theocracies every time you fill up your gas tank.
just think of it as your money coming back to you in a different form.
This is serious discussion?/
| 326 |
Obdicut Thu, Jul 29, 2010 10:58:13am |
re: #287 RogueOne
Lets try to be clear about the terminology and philosophy here. There has never been a global caliphate which is the ultimate goal of the followers of Islam.
All of the followers of Islam?
No.
| 327 |
Gus Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:07:51am |
re: #324 Naso Tang
Why do you misrepresent what I say?
There's a difference between domestic politics and foreign nations attempting side door methods to achieve similar ends.
I don't in fact have evidence of that, but I have plenty of reasons to think it may be so.
Well Naso. Whether we like it or not when the USA undertakes military action in the Middle East many if not most there will see it as a Christian act from a Christian nation. They also believe that the USA is intent on world dominance beyond the ME region.
Frankly, I'm not very concerned about any of these scenarios or talk of global Caliphates. We went through the Red Menace of the alleged world domination by either the Soviet Union or the Peoples Republic of China. And these were and in the case of China, are, countries with militaries that make the rag tag collection of Al Qaeda and the Taliban look like fleas amongst elephants.
Frankly, this talk of a Muslim global Caliphate is pure hysteria.
| 328 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:17:17am |
re: #180 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I'm still glad we bombed the shit out of them. Sorry we had to, but glad we did.
Still not a reason for us to show up and acknowledge the loss of life.
| 329 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jul 29, 2010 11:17:39am |
re: #328 SanFranciscoZionist
Still not a reason for us to show up and acknowledge the loss of life.
NOT to show up...
Going for coffee now....
| 330 |
Cineaste Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:11:22pm |
re: #252 lawhawk
"Terrorists funding us" would still fall under the providing material support provisions - since we'd be enabling the terrorists to spread their message, expand their operations, etc.
Not necessarily. Let's take the ad absurdem argument: let's say a terrorist group gives a donation to the Red Cross. They don't announce it in anyway, they just send a check quietly (i know, this is absurd, but that's the point). I'm not sure there is "material" support being offered. There would be a debatable point over whether or not allowing them to be charitable gives them some form of moral comfort - because giving to charity can be pleasurable - but moral comfort is legal, afterall, it is legal to say that you find Osama Bin Laden sexy which he may take pleasure in knowing (not you specifically mind you, I'm not sure he cares much about lawhawk's desire...)
| 331 |
Achilles Tang Thu, Jul 29, 2010 1:21:22pm |
re: #327 Gus 802
Frankly, I'm not very concerned about any of these scenarios or talk of global Caliphates. We went through the Red Menace of the alleged world domination by either the Soviet Union or the Peoples Republic of China. And these were and in the case of China, are, countries with militaries that make the rag tag collection of Al Qaeda and the Taliban look like fleas amongst elephants.Frankly, this talk of a Muslim global Caliphate is pure hysteria.
Be my guest, you tell our people who are dying in Afghanistan that they are fighting fleas, not to mention the thousands of other elsewhere around the globe.
As to religious centers in the USA, if it were not under the name of "religion", and if it is funded by a religious theocracy, then the recipients of the funds would have to register as representatives of a foreign government, by law. All I want to know is who is paying for it.
You can chuckle away under the guise of cultural correctness if it pleases you.
| 332 |
Eclectic Infidel Thu, Jul 29, 2010 2:31:05pm |
re: #38 LudwigVanQuixote
Why is this counter intuitive? Fox has been pimping that the president is a sekrit Muslim hell bent on bringing socialism to America and having angry black men eat white babies for two years.
Fear and paranoia when given the legitimacy of constant exposure only breeds this kind of response amongst the ignorant and predisposed to be hateful. This is the tiger by the tail that even Fox can not hold onto and that the GOP gave into months ago.
It is a self feeding cycle now.
Do you really think this process is so very different than what happened on Germany?
I do. I know I'm coming into this discussion late in the game but there are several factors lacking in our society today that were very much on the forefront of post-war Germany. First, we are not a defeated people, looking for one group to blame for everything under the sun. Sure, the right-wing Republicans have been harping on how Obama is a sekrit non-American muslim and are rah rah boys/girls for the war on terror, but as you've already stated, that's nothing new. Second, even though with our two party system, our government is stable and there isn't a vacuum waiting to be filled. Third, we do have a check and balance system in place that would prevent a dictatorship from ever happening here. Fourtth, anti-semitism in Europe was a commonly accepted idea, embedded into the minds and hearts of every European, and conflating Germany's misery with that of Jewish conspiracies to control the Fatherland wasn't even a stretch. Sure, there's anti-semites here, both on the left and right, but not to the same concentrated degree as in Germany in the 1920s and 30s. I don't think comparing this anti-Muslim sentiment from "the right" in any way equates with the vile propaganda generated out of Nazi Germany.
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