The unrest in Egypt shows no sign of subsiding today. Hosni Mubarak has named a vice president for the first time in 29 years, but he picked one of his cronies, of course — angering the demonstrators even more.
Meanwhile, here’s the scene at a rally in Washington DC:
Al Jazeera now confirms that Hosni Mubarak’s wife has left Egypt for London.
1 |
austin_blue Sat, Jan 29, 2011 10:28:26am |
Damned if we support him, damned if we don’t. Not a good start to a Saturday.
On the other hand, I finished the NYT crossword in 34 minutes this morning
2 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jan 29, 2011 10:28:42am |
This article is making the rounds on lefty sites:
Don’t Fear Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood
The secretive Islamic opposition group has long renounced violence and may be the most reasonable option. Bruce Riedel on why Obama shouldn’t panic—and should let Egyptians decide their fate.
Ugh. This does not make me feel better about the protests,
| 3 |
austin_blue Sat, Jan 29, 2011 10:30:35am |
re: #2 Killgore Trout
This article is making the rounds on lefty sites:
Don’t Fear Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood
Ugh. This does not make me feel better about the protests,
Al Queda was a direct outgrowth of the “non-violent” Muslim Brotherhood. I’m a Leftie, but that level of moon-battiness is just rock dumb.
| 4 |
austin_blue Sat, Jan 29, 2011 10:31:30am |
And good morning/afternoon, Kilgore. Hope you are well.
5 |
otoc Sat, Jan 29, 2011 10:31:33am |
Wow, that Post article is pretty amazing
CAIRO - Tens of thousands of pro-democracy demonstrators swarmed central Cairo on Saturday in the largest demonstration yet against the rule of the country’s longtime autocratic leader, President Hosni Mubarak. The crowd went unchallenged by troops, who, in extraordinary scenes unfolding around the capital’s central Tahrir Square, smiled and shook hands with protesters and invited them up onto their tanks.
And Washington?
President Obama on Friday strongly defended the rights of Egyptian protesters who have taken to the streets to demand political change, cautioning the government of President Hosni Mubarak to avoid violence and adopt “concrete steps that advance the rights” of the country’s citizens.
6 |
What, me worry? Sat, Jan 29, 2011 10:32:44am |
re: #2 Killgore Trout
This article is making the rounds on lefty sites:
Don’t Fear Egypt’s Muslim BrotherhoodUgh. This does not make me feel better about the protests,
Are they crazy??? Whoa. What you said in the other post is really starting to scare me now. Let’s hope the Egyptians don’t agree.
| 7 |
austin_blue Sat, Jan 29, 2011 10:33:34am |
re: #5 otoc
Wow, that Post article is pretty amazing
And Washington?
What else can The Prez do?
Rock, meet hard place.
8 |
Walter L. Newton Sat, Jan 29, 2011 10:35:01am |
re: #2 Killgore Trout
This article is making the rounds on lefty sites:
Don’t Fear Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood
Ugh. This does not make me feel better about the protests,
From the article… and answer to margiemoons (I think it was her question) about ElBaradei and MB…
Egypt’s new opposition leader, former International Atomic Energy Agency head Mohamed ElBaradei, has formed a loose alliance with the Brotherhood because he knows it is the only opposition group that can mobilize masses of Egyptians, especially the poor. He says he can work with it to change Egypt. Many scholars of political Islam also judge the Brotherhood is the most reasonable face of Islamic politics in the Arab world today. Skeptics fear ElBaradei will be swept along by more radical forces.
| 9 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jan 29, 2011 10:35:12am |
A Manifesto for Change in Egypt
by Mohamed ElBaradei
Of course, you in the West have been sold the idea that the only options in the Arab world are between authoritarian regimes and Islamic jihadists. That’s obviously bogus.
….
Instead of equating political Islam with al Qaeda all the time, take a closer look. Historically, Islam was hijacked about 20 or 30 years after the Prophet and interpreted in such a way that the ruler has absolute power and is accountable only to God. That, of course, was a very convenient interpretation for whoever was the ruler. Only a few weeks ago, the leader of a group of ultra-conservative Muslims in Egypt issued a fatwa, or religious edict, calling for me to “repent” for inciting public opposition to President Hosni Mubarak, and declaring the ruler has a right to kill me, if I do not desist. This sort of thing moves us toward the dark ages.
This doesn’t make me feel better either.
| 10 |
What, me worry? Sat, Jan 29, 2011 10:37:00am |
re: #8 Walter L. Newton
From the article… and answer to margiemoons (I think it was her question) about ElBaradei and MB…
Egypt’s new opposition leader, former International Atomic Energy Agency head Mohamed ElBaradei, has formed a loose alliance with the Brotherhood because he knows it is the only opposition group that can mobilize masses of Egyptians, especially the poor. He says he can work with it to change Egypt. Many scholars of political Islam also judge the Brotherhood is the most reasonable face of Islamic politics in the Arab world today. Skeptics fear ElBaradei will be swept along by more radical forces.
My goodness. We’re screwed.
| 11 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jan 29, 2011 10:38:14am |
re: #8 Walter L. Newton
From the article… and answer to margiemoons (I think it was her question) about ElBaradei and MB…
Egypt’s new opposition leader, former International Atomic Energy Agency head Mohamed ElBaradei, has formed a loose alliance with the Brotherhood because he knows it is the only opposition group that can mobilize masses of Egyptians, especially the poor. He says he can work with it to change Egypt. Many scholars of political Islam also judge the Brotherhood is the most reasonable face of Islamic politics in the Arab world today. Skeptics fear ElBaradei will be swept along by more radical forces.
Yeah, It’s starting to become clear that he does support the MB and political Islam. They are the most likely successors to Mubarak and that’s really really bad.
12 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 10:38:19am |
People to follow on Twitter to keep up with #Jan25:
twitter.com!/AJEnglish
twitter.com!/PJCrowley
twitter.com!/bencnn
twitter.com!/SultanAlQassemi
twitter.com!/Sandmonkey
twitter.com!/alaa
twitter.com!/weddady
twitter.com!/beleidy
twitter.com!/monaeltahawy
twitter.com!/jeremyscahill
twitter.com!/litfreak
twitter.com!/Dima_Khatib
twitter.com!/FaezaMoghul
13 |
prairiefire Sat, Jan 29, 2011 10:38:29am |
Oh, I do not like that “made in the USA” sign.
| 15 |
austin_blue Sat, Jan 29, 2011 10:41:28am |
re: #13 prairiefire
Oh, I do not like that “made in the USA” sign.
Me either. Sadly, it’s pretty much true. Egypt is #2 on our foreign aid list.
| 16 |
Walter L. Newton Sat, Jan 29, 2011 10:41:59am |
| 17 |
What, me worry? Sat, Jan 29, 2011 10:42:41am |
re: #16 Walter L. Newton
You live in Egypt?
No, but I have family in Israel. Even if I didn’t, I’d be freaked out. You aren’t?
| 18 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 10:42:50am |
re: #11 Killgore Trout
Yeah, It’s starting to become clear that he does support the MB and political Islam. They are the most likely successors to Mubarak and that’s really really bad.
I would be more optimistic. If the MB were to try to gain power anytime soon, they would surely clash with a majority of the protestors who started and carried the revolution.
I would also not take ElBaradei too seriously, except maybe for an interim government after Mubarak, going into a presidential into a truly constitutional republic.
I think it’s pretty clear that the people of Egypt do not want just another strongman.
| 19 |
FemNaziBitch Sat, Jan 29, 2011 10:43:33am |
What exactly do the protesters want?
Free Bread? Paid-vacation?
I have a feeling that ElBaradei is a diplomat and not a politician.
| 20 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 10:43:38am |
going into a presidential into a truly constitutional
That should read “going from a presidential into a truly constitutional”. PIMF
| 21 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 10:45:41am |
re: #19 ggt
What exactly do the protesters want?
Free Bread? Paid-vacation?
Widely circulated demands of the protestors:
A lot of it is probably also about just establishing constitutional rule of law. Egypt has been under terrible emergency laws for decades now: cablesearch.org
| 22 |
What, me worry? Sat, Jan 29, 2011 10:46:05am |
re: #18 000G
I would be more optimistic. If the MB were to try to gain power anytime soon, they would surely clash with a majority of the protestors who started and carried the revolution.
I would also not take ElBaradei too seriously, except maybe for an interim government after Mubarak, going into a presidential into a truly constitutional republic.
I think it’s pretty clear that the people of Egypt do not want just another strongman.
Yea, but the M.B. is armed. Least they smuggle weapons into Israel. And only Lord knows what they have.
23 |
Uncle Obdicut Sat, Jan 29, 2011 10:46:08am |
re: #12 000G
Heh. Bloggers are using the word ‘Pharaohs” in place of “Egypt” in order to escape China’s censorship. Nifty.
24 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Jan 29, 2011 10:47:32am |
re: #17 marjoriemoon
No, but I have family in Israel. Even if I didn’t, I’d be freaked out. You aren’t?
We can’t know yet if it’s going to be better or worse, thus not freaked out. In general I like to see dictators get on planes in the middle of the night.
| 25 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 10:47:37am |
re: #22 marjoriemoon
Yea, but the M.B. is armed. Least they smuggle weapons into Israel. And only Lord knows what they have.
I have seen some pretty amazing examples of self-organization by the people in order to combat criminals and thugs who want to exploit or add to the chaos right now. I would advice to be open for surprises, that’s kind of what democracy is all about after all.
| 26 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 10:49:01am |
Another good source to see actual documentation of the grievances Egyptians have is sandmonkey.org
27 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Jan 29, 2011 10:49:30am |
re: #9 Killgore Trout
I’ll never understand why this kind of rhetoric appeals to some leftists. By any objective measure, political Islam is diametrically opposed to what we think of as “Western” liberalism. No freedom of speech, no freedom of religion, brutal repression of women, the list goes on and on. This has always been the ideological reason why I worked to oppose militant Islam.
It’s insane (or at least, incredibly naive) to say we shouldn’t be worried about an Islamic theocracy in Egypt. Theocracy is a bad thing, period.
| 28 |
Walter L. Newton Sat, Jan 29, 2011 10:49:58am |
re: #17 marjoriemoon
No, but I have family in Israel. Even if I didn’t, I’d be freaked out. You aren’t?
No… certainly not saying this is not a serious situation, but I don’t think we have enough information or understanding of what goes on in a country as big and diverse as Egypt to make too many assumptions.
Just yesterday I heard Candy Crowley from CNN stating that CNN was desperately looking for an Egyptologist, a real expert on modern Egypt to advise so CNN could get a better handle on it.
5 days ago our own state department was claiming that Mubarak had everything under control.
I don’t think anyone know for sure right now.
| 29 |
FemNaziBitch Sat, Jan 29, 2011 10:50:44am |
re: #21 000G
Widely circulated demands of the protestors:
[Link: www.manalaa.net…]
A lot of it is probably also about just establishing constitutional rule of law. Egypt has been under terrible emergency laws for decades now: [Link: cablesearch.org…]
1. Mubarak’s immediate stepping down from power.
2. The resignation of the cabinet.
3. the dissolution of the fraudulent parliament
4. The formation of a national government.
thank you!
what do they want to replace it with? Doesn’t sound like a workable list of demands. Easier if there are nitty gritty specifics—a list of rights, repeal of the Emergency laws etc. As it is they could get all their demands and get something worse to replace them.
I think it would be more workable if they demanded a change of the law or it’s application instead of change in those who administered the law.
Or am I missing something?
| 30 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jan 29, 2011 10:51:35am |
re: #18 000G
I would be more optimistic. If the MB were to try to gain power anytime soon, they would surely clash with a majority of the protestors who started and carried the revolution.
I would also not take ElBaradei too seriously, except maybe for an interim government after Mubarak, going into a presidential into a truly constitutional republic.
I think it’s pretty clear that the people of Egypt do not want just another strongman.
I don’t think there’s any chance they would exclude the MB from future elections and I don’t think they’ll even try. They’d be getting a lot more international support if there was a plan in place to exclude the MB.
Listen, I’m really hesitant to shit on these protests. Most of the people in these protests really want freedom but I don’t think that’s what they’re going to get.
| 31 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 10:51:49am |
re: #27 Charles
I’ll never understand why this kind of rhetoric appeals to some leftists. By any objective measure, political Islam is diametrically opposed to what we think of as “Western” liberalism. No freedom of speech, no freedom of religion, brutal repression of women, the list goes on and on. This has always been the ideological reason why I worked to oppose militant Islam.
It’s insane (or at least, incredibly naive) to say we shouldn’t be worried about an Islamic theocracy in Egypt. Theocracy is a bad thing, period.
It’s a sad but true fact that a lot of what passes for emancipating thought in leftist circles is merely a romantic yearning for a somehow, maybe magically, just and benevolent tribalism or feudalism to replace the inavoidable contradictions of a free society.
| 32 |
FemNaziBitch Sat, Jan 29, 2011 10:53:01am |
| 33 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 10:53:07am |
re: #30 Killgore Trout
I don’t think there’s any chance they would exclude the MB from future elections and I don’t think they’ll even try. They’d be getting a lot more international support if there was a plan in place to exclude the MB.
Listen, I’m really hesitant to shit on these protests. Most of the people in these protests really want freedom but I don’t think that’s what they’re going to get.
Still, if you do not give them the chance, then their sure opression is on you.
34 |
Ericus58 Sat, Jan 29, 2011 10:53:21am |
Sure is nice to see that some individuals in Iran think they are the best option for peace in the ME….. that is, for other “Islamic” nations.
| 35 |
austin_blue Sat, Jan 29, 2011 10:54:08am |
re: #18 000G
I would be more optimistic. If the MB were to try to gain power anytime soon, they would surely clash with a majority of the protestors who started and carried the revolution.
I would also not take ElBaradei too seriously, except maybe for an interim government after Mubarak, going into a presidential into a truly constitutional republic.
I think it’s pretty clear that the people of Egypt do not want just another strongman.
Worked well in Iran, didn’t it?
Just sayin’…
| 36 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 10:54:57am |
re: #29 ggt
1. Mubarak’s immediate stepping down from power.
2. The resignation of the cabinet.
3. the dissolution of the fraudulent parliament
4. The formation of a national government.thank you!
what do they want to replace it with? Doesn’t sound like a workable list of demands. Easier if there are nitty gritty specifics—a list of rights, repeal of the Emergency laws etc. As it is they could get all their demands and get something worse to replace them.
I think it would be more workable if they demanded a change of the law or it’s application instead of change in those who administered the law.
Or am I missing something?
I think they will be more worried about establishing better processes of elections, etc. i.e. getting people to power than thinking about who is going to be the one holding it in the end. But that first and foremost requires Mubarak and his thugs to get thrown out, as they have made such changes impossible for decades now.
| 37 |
FemNaziBitch Sat, Jan 29, 2011 10:55:05am |
re: #34 Ericus58
Sure is nice to see that some individuals in Iran think they are the best option for peace in the ME… that is, for other “Islamic” nations.
Slavery (compete oppression) can mimic peace. There are those who can’t see the difference.
| 38 |
Talking Point Detective Sat, Jan 29, 2011 10:55:06am |
re: #3 austin_blue
Al Queda was a direct outgrowth of the “non-violent” Muslim Brotherhood. I’m a Leftie, but that level of moon-battiness is just rock dumb.
I don’t know all of the facts here, and I’m open to finding out more.
But here are the credential of the writer of the article:
Bruce Riedel (born c. 1953) is a Senior Fellow in foreign policy at the Saban Center for Middle East Policy of the Brookings Institution, a former CIA Analyst, a counter-terrorism expert, and an author. He retired in 2006 after 29 years with the Central Intelligence Agency. Riedel served as Special Assistant to the President and Senior Director for Near East Affairs on the National Security Council (1997–2002), Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Near East and South Asian Affairs (1995–97), and National Intelligence Officer for Near East and South Asian Affairs at the National Intelligence Council (1993–95). His areas of expertise include counter-terrorism, Arab-Israeli issues, Persian Gulf security and India and Pakistan.
Riedel has a B.A. from Brown, a Masters in Diplomatic History from Harvard, and has studied at the Royal College of Defense Studies in London. He received the Secretary of Defense Distinguished Service Medal in 1997, the Distinguished Intelligence Medal in 2001, and the Department of State Meritorious Honor Award in 2006 for his work in the intelligence and defense community.
He is the author of ‘Al Qaeda Strikes Back’, which is a study in contemporary counter-terrorism and was published in May/June 2007 edition of Foreign Affairs that focuses on the International terrorist organization al-Qaeda.
Not exactly the resume of a moonbat.
39 |
HoosierHoops Sat, Jan 29, 2011 10:55:17am |
re: #34 Ericus58
Sure is nice to see that some individuals in Iran think they are the best option for peace in the ME… that is, for other “Islamic” nations.
I wonder how those in the Iranian green movement watching this unfold are feeling right now..
| 40 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jan 29, 2011 10:55:21am |
Here’s some background for those not familiar with the Muslim Brotherhood. The MB isn’t being smeared by fascist supporting right wing bloggers. The MB are nasty folks, no two ways about it.
| 41 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Jan 29, 2011 10:55:22am |
re: #30 Killgore Trout
I don’t think there’s any chance they would exclude the MB from future elections and I don’t think they’ll even try. They’d be getting a lot more international support if there was a plan in place to exclude the MB.
Listen, I’m really hesitant to shit on these protests. Most of the people in these protests really want freedom but I don’t think that’s what they’re going to get.
Most people say the MB has about 20-30% support among the Egyptian public. It’s not inevitable that they’ll end up in charge, but whoever does is going to have to deal with them in one way or another.
| 42 |
FemNaziBitch Sat, Jan 29, 2011 10:55:52am |
re: #36 000G
I think they will be more worried about establishing better processes of elections, etc. i.e. getting people to power than thinking about who is going to be the one holding it in the end. But that first and foremost requires Mubarak and his thugs to get thrown out, as they have made such changes impossible for decades now.
Term limits might be a start, no?
| 43 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 10:56:15am |
re: #42 ggt
Term limits might be a start, no?
I have actually read that quite a lot among protestors.
| 44 |
Walter L. Newton Sat, Jan 29, 2011 10:57:06am |
| 45 |
FemNaziBitch Sat, Jan 29, 2011 10:57:13am |
| 46 |
What, me worry? Sat, Jan 29, 2011 10:57:29am |
re: #25 000G
I have seen some pretty amazing examples of self-organization by the people in order to combat criminals and thugs who want to exploit or add to the chaos right now. I would advice to be open for surprises, that’s kind of what democracy is all about after all.
In Cuba after the revolution, Castro confiscated all weapons. If the M.B. comes to power, it would be horrifying.
| 47 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 10:57:35am |
re: #41 Charles
Most people say the MB has about 20-30% support among the Egyptian public. It’s not inevitable that they’ll end up in charge, but whoever does is going to have to deal with them in one way or another.
Again, it is important to point out that the MB will also have to deal with the 70-80 % who don’t support them and who, as evidenced by the recent events, are quite willing to go out and actively participate in the political process against all fears of repression.
| 48 |
Ericus58 Sat, Jan 29, 2011 10:58:51am |
re: #39 HoosierHoops
I wonder how those in the Iranian green movement watching this unfold are feeling right now..
I would hope that they would draw strength and courage.
| 49 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 10:59:26am |
re: #46 marjoriemoon
In Cuba after the revolution, Castro confiscated all weapons. If the M.B. comes to power, it would be horrifying.
Again: Mubarak ruled as dictator. For the Egyptian people, that was horrifying enough, finally.
| 50 |
austin_blue Sat, Jan 29, 2011 10:59:44am |
re: #41 Charles
Most people say the MB has about 20-30% support among the Egyptian public. It’s not inevitable that they’ll end up in charge, but whoever does is going to have to deal with them in one way or another.
Exactly my point. Thank you.
Hezbullah didn’t start out running Lebanon. Now look at ‘em.
51 |
Winny Spencer Sat, Jan 29, 2011 10:59:55am |
Well, historically the foreign policy views of the left and right has, of course, fluctuated. It will be interesting to see if there will be another paradigm shift on the left as well, as the right seems to be progressing increasingly isolationist and ultimately Paulian.
| 52 |
FemNaziBitch Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:00:07am |
re: #47 000G
Again, it is important to point out that the MB will also have to deal with the 70-80 % who don’t support them and who, as evidenced by the recent events, are quite willing to go out and actively participate in the political process against all fears of repression.
The 20-30% who do support them—are the in the cities or provinces? Is there a division between the supporters and non-supporters (education, economic, cultural?)
| 53 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:00:23am |
| 54 |
FemNaziBitch Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:01:15am |
re: #49 000G
Again: Mubarak ruled as dictator. For the Egyptian people, that was horrifying enough, finally.
Did he have torture chambers, deny food to a certain segment of the population, commit genocide?
There are ranges of dicatators—what exactly did he deny?
| 55 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:01:33am |
re: #52 ggt
The 20-30% who do support them—are the in the cities or provinces? Is there a division between the supporters and non-supporters (education, economic, cultural?)
I have read that the MB has the most support among the poor and uneducated masses, my guess is probably also more the rural folks. And it’s true that the revolution has been started by quite a different strata. But it is important that it truly IS popular now and for the decisive momentum period, has been, that is it included everybody.
| 56 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:01:43am |
re: #41 Charles
Most people say the MB has about 20-30% support among the Egyptian public. It’s not inevitable that they’ll end up in charge, but whoever does is going to have to deal with them in one way or another.
that 20-30% is huge. Once Mubarak’s parties are gone they are going to be the largest party by far. The remaining 70-80% is going to be split among dozens of start up disorganized political parties. MB has the organization and infrastructure already in place. The have a huge advantage.
| 57 |
What, me worry? Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:01:59am |
re: #30 Killgore Trout
I don’t think there’s any chance they would exclude the MB from future elections and I don’t think they’ll even try. They’d be getting a lot more international support if there was a plan in place to exclude the MB.
Listen, I’m really hesitant to shit on these protests. Most of the people in these protests really want freedom but I don’t think that’s what they’re going to get.
They don’t want what the have, but they don’t know how to get what they want. Generally, I don’t think violent coups are the way to get it. OTOH, what else can they do? How many times have these things worked to bring about peaceful regimes? How often does it become worse? Indeed, we don’t know at this point.
| 58 |
albusteve Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:02:00am |
re: #54 ggt
Did he have torture chambers, deny food to a certain segment of the population, commit genocide?
There are ranges of dicatators—what exactly did he deny?
dissent
| 59 |
Ericus58 Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:02:23am |
I can only imagine what foreign visitors stuck in Egypt are going through… most, if not all flights canceled.
| 60 |
FemNaziBitch Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:02:28am |
re: #55 000G
I have read that the MB has the most support among the poor and uneducated masses, my guess is probably also more the rural folks. And it’s true that the revolution has been started by quite a different strata. But it is important that it truly IS popular now and for the decisive momentum period, has been, that is it included everybody.
So modernizing the rural areas would help?
| 61 |
FemNaziBitch Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:03:26am |
| 62 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:03:29am |
re: #59 Ericus58
I can only imagine what foreign visitors stuck in Egypt are going through… most, if not all flights canceled.
It’s a Civics practicum. Might do some of them good.
| 64 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:03:57am |
re: #54 ggt
Did he have torture chambers, deny food to a certain segment of the population, commit genocide?
There are ranges of dicatators—what exactly did he deny?
While in office, political corruption in the Mubarak administration’s Ministry of Interior has risen dramatically, due to the increased power over the institutional system that is necessary to secure the prolonged presidency. Such corruption has led to the imprisonment of political figures and young activists without trials,[17] illegal undocumented hidden detention facilities,[18][19] and rejecting universities, mosques, newspapers staff members based on political inclination.[20] On a personnel level, each individual officer can and will violate citizens’ privacy in his area using unconditioned arrests due to the emergency law.
More:
Egypt is a semi-presidential republic under Emergency Law (Law No. 162 of 1958)[22] and has been since 1967, except for an 18-month break in 1980s. Under the law, police powers are extended, constitutional rights suspended and censorship is legalized.[23] The law sharply circumscribes any non-governmental political activity: street demonstrations, non-approved political organizations, and unregistered financial donations are formally banned. Some 17,000 people are detained under the law, and estimates of political prisoners run as high as 30,000.[24] Under that “state of emergency”, the government has the right to imprison individuals for any period of time, and for virtually no reason, thus keeping them in prisons without trials for any period. The government continues the claim that opposition groups like the Muslim Brotherhood could come into power in Egypt if the current government did not forgo parliamentary elections, confiscate the group’s main financiers’ possessions, and detain group figureheads, actions which are virtually impossible without emergency law and judicial-system independence prevention.[25] Pro-democracy advocates in Egypt argue that this goes against the principles of democracy, which include a citizen’s right to a fair trial and their right to vote for whichever candidate and/or party they deem fit to run their country.
And then there is cases like this: sandmonkey.org
(seriously, read sandmonkey.org, it’s worth it)
| 65 |
Talking Point Detective Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:04:05am |
re: #40 Killgore Trout
Here’s some background for those not familiar with the Muslim Brotherhood. The MB isn’t being smeared by fascist supporting right wing bloggers. The MB are nasty folks, no two ways about it.
Yeah - I read through that earlier. Clearly some disturbing stuff.
But one thing I noticed was that a lot of the more hard-line stuff was from quite a few years ago. Do you have some links to more recent evidence?
I also noticed stuff like this:
Sundan
An offshoot of the Sudanese branch of the Muslim Brotherhood, the Islamic Charter Front grew during the 1960, with Islamic scholar Hasan al-Turabi becoming its Secretary general in 1964. The Islamic Charter Front (ICM) was renamed several times most recently being called the National Islamic Front (NIF). Turabi has been the prime architect of the NIF as a modern Islamist party. He worked within the Institutions of the government, which led to a prominent position of his organization in the country. NIF supported women’s right to vote and ran women candidates. The Muslim Brotherhood/NIF’s main objective in Sudan was to Islamize the society “from above” and to institutionalize the Islamic law throughout the country where they succeeded.
Somalia
Although Al-Islah have been criticized by some hardcore Islamists who considered them to be influenced by imperialist western values, Al-Islah speaks of democratic peaceful Somalia. They promote women’s rights, human rights, and other ideas, which they argue that these concepts originate from Islamic concepts. Al-Islah is gaining momentum in the Somali societies for their humanitarian work and moderate view of Islam, which is compatible to medernisation and respect of human right.
Libya
Their core ideology, strategy, operations and membership are the same as Brotherhood groups in other countries: it seeks to replace the existing regime with one following Sharia law through what it claims are peaceful means. It has an active charitable and welfare wing and has attracted many members of the middle classes, mainly academics, students, engineers and business people.[citation needed] The group has been strengthened by the large number of Libyan students who became member or supporters of the Brotherhood while studying abroad in the United Kingdom and the United States, and have returned home to spread its ideology
| 66 |
Ericus58 Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:04:46am |
re: #62 Decatur Deb
It’s a Civics practicum. Might do some of them good.
I’m sure that many of them are re-thinking their own countries political issue’s in a new light….
“Ya know, maybe we ain’t got it so bad….”
| 67 |
albusteve Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:05:08am |
re: #64 000G
these gigantic blue links are hard on my eyes..need my Raybans I guess
| 68 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:05:19am |
re: #56 Killgore Trout
that 20-30% is huge. Once Mubarak’s parties are gone they are going to be the largest party by far. The remaining 70-80% is going to be split among dozens of start up disorganized political parties. MB has the organization and infrastructure already in place. The have a huge advantage.
I disagree. There are lots of social structures already in place in Egypt, e.g. large bureaucratic forces, who until now have not been politically active or organized but due to their already being socially organized have the potential to form large political factions easily.
We will have to see. There are no certain predictions at this moment.
| 69 |
FemNaziBitch Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:05:24am |
re: #64 000G
Just a taste:
And then there is cases like this: [Link: www.sandmonkey.org…]
(seriously, read sandmonkey.org, it’s worth it)
bookmarked!
| 70 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:05:41am |
re: #66 Ericus58
I’m sure that many of them are re-thinking their own countries political issue’s in a new light…
“Ya know, maybe we ain’t got it so bad…”
Or, “So this is how it’s done.”
| 71 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:06:05am |
re: #60 ggt
So modernizing the rural areas would help?
Well, I believe education and modernization always helps, but that is a pretty broad and general statement which is, in itself, not very helpful at all. ;-)
| 72 |
FemNaziBitch Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:06:58am |
re: #65 Talking Point Detective
Yeah - I read through that earlier. Clearly some disturbing stuff.
But one thing I noticed was that a lot of the more hard-line stuff was from quite a few years ago. Do you have some links to more recent evidence?
I also noticed stuff like this:
Sundan
Somalia
Libya
So, they are advertising (and hopefully utilizing) the kinder, gentler form of Islam?
| 73 |
What, me worry? Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:07:59am |
re: #59 Ericus58
I can only imagine what foreign visitors stuck in Egypt are going through… most, if not all flights canceled.
Al Jazara was just reporting there were 90 foreign diplomats in Cairo. They’re sending private planes to get them out. European flights have been canceled (obviously) and people are warned not to make plans to visit (uh… duh) although they said tourist destinations by the Red Sea are far enough away to still visit. They are taking people who have vacation plans to Cairo over there.
I’d probably just suck it up, take my losses and go on holiday another time.
| 74 |
Ericus58 Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:08:28am |
| 75 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:09:44am |
re: #72 ggt
So, they are advertising (and hopefully utilizing) the kinder, gentler form of Islam?
I am sure a lot of them are only paying lipservice to what they know sounds good to foreigners and also “the people”.
One thing I think could be done in Egypt would be voting a national assembly to craft a new constitution and then put that to a popular vote. If it includes all sorts of provisions like seperations of powers, seperation of state and religion, etc. which the people at least in theory should be interested in, then that would be a great start. Somehow this hypothetical does not strike me as absolutely bizarre and unrealistic where things are right now…
| 76 |
FemNaziBitch Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:09:58am |
re: #71 000G
Well, I believe education and modernization always helps, but that is a pretty broad and general statement which is, in itself, not very helpful at all. ;-)
Rural Electricity, paved roads, communications infrastructure, public schools that are “equal” thru-out the country, sanitiation …. I don’t know the specifics of life for the people in the provinces.
Basically a major expenditure in the national budget.
| 77 |
What, me worry? Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:10:06am |
Showing the damage in the musuem in Cairo now.
| 78 |
albusteve Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:10:14am |
re: #72 ggt
So, they are advertising (and hopefully utilizing) the kinder, gentler form of Islam?
they are a retired terrorist group, one the oldest in the ME….radicals who do whatever they need to do to foment unrest….they favorite baby is AQ, the group that does the wet work to spread their ideology…they probably say and do whatever they feel necessary to stay in business
| 79 |
FemNaziBitch Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:11:08am |
| 80 |
albusteve Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:12:05am |
re: #75 000G
I am sure a lot of them are only paying lipservice to what they know sounds good to foreigners and also “the people”.
One thing I think could be done in Egypt would be voting a national assembly to craft a new constitution and then put that to a popular vote. If it includes all sorts of provisions like seperations of powers, seperation of state and religion, etc. which the people at least in theory should be interested in, then that would be a great start. Somehow this hypothetical does not strike me as absolutely bizarre and unrealistic where things are right now…
GB thought the very same thought, only years ago….remarkable
| 81 |
What, me worry? Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:13:24am |
re: #79 ggt
Ouch!
2 mummies were destroyed. Some statutes and jewelry damaged, but the citizens apparently came in and stopped them. The video they showed had the army (what it appeared to be the army) now guarding the museum.
| 82 |
FemNaziBitch Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:13:41am |
I’m late and am really signing off.
Thanks for all the input!
Have a great day all!
| 83 |
Talking Point Detective Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:14:40am |
re: #72 ggt
So, they are advertising (and hopefully utilizing) the kinder, gentler form of Islam?
They are obviously dedicated to the installation of Sharia law - at least in predominantly Muslim countries. They seem to clearly be aligned with Hamas (although their history shows opposition to hard line Palestinian organizations).
Here’s another interesting excerpt from that Wikipedia page:
Somalia’s wing of the Muslim Brotherhood is known by the name Harakat Al-Islah or “Reform Movement”. Nonetheless, the Brotherhood, as mentioned earlier, has inspired many Islamist organizations in Somalia. Muslim Brotherhood ideology reached Somalia in the 1960s, but Al-Islah movement was formed in 1978 and slowly grew in the 1980s. Al-Islah has been described as “a generally nonviolent and modernizing Islamic movement that emphasizes the reformation and revival of Islam to meet the challenges of the modern world,” whose “goal is the establishment of an Islamic state” and which “operates primarily in Mogadishu.”
Given the level of Islamophobia out there, I’m just a little reluctant to draw conclusions w/o a careful weighing of the evidence.
84 |
Summer Seale Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:14:48am |
Hi everyone! Sarah Palin again…
I just want to say how wonderful this is to see all those people on the streets protesting for lower taxes and freedom from tyranny and forced health care. I was watching the TV this morning and was reminded of how lucky we are to also live in a country that is cooler than that place overseas, aren’t we? You know, it reminds me of when I used to fight for causes in Wasilla, like at the PTA meetings when people wanted to teach our children that we’re all monkeys and there is no God or Jesus. It broke my heart and I’d be out there fighting against that sort of tyranny as well.
I’m just so glad I’m living in the freest nation on earth where I can refudiate any tyrant who comes and knocks on my door! Right America?
So I just want you to keep that all in mind as we watch these amazing events unfolding near Russia, and remember that I know a lot about that place in the world because my son was serving in that country too for a while, and I’m so proud of him and I try to mention it anytime I can so others can be proud of me too.
Am I hopeful about everything?
You betcha!
Thank you again, America, and I love you!!!!
Sarah Palin.
| 85 |
albusteve Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:15:30am |
I think Mu should tell his goons in the police force to stand down and quit shooting people….it does not appear to be doing much good, and it’s terrible PR
| 86 |
Talking Point Detective Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:15:49am |
re: #78 albusteve
they are a retired terrorist group, one the oldest in the ME…radicals who do whatever they need to do to foment unrest…they favorite baby is AQ, the group that does the wet work to spread their ideology…they probably say and do whatever they feel necessary to stay in business
Do you have some links?
| 87 |
albusteve Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:16:34am |
| 88 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:17:56am |
re: #80 albusteve
GB thought the very same thought, only years ago…remarkable
George Bush or Great Britain?
| 89 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:19:33am |
Btw, this should be more widely circulated and known.
| 90 |
Talking Point Detective Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:19:47am |
re: #87 albusteve
to what?…
To the evidence for your statements.
For example, most of the evidence I’ve seen so far, including the article by Riedel - points to a split between them and AQ.
91 |
wrenchwench Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:22:07am |
re: #83 Talking Point Detective
They are obviously dedicated to the installation of Sharia law - at least in predominantly Muslim countries. They seem to clearly be aligned with Hamas (although their history shows opposition to hard line Palestinian organizations).
Here’s another interesting excerpt from that Wikipedia page:
Given the level of Islamophobia out there, I’m just a little reluctant to draw conclusions w/o a careful weighing of the evidence.
That section seems to be very poorly sourced, ie: the one footnote it has doesn’t back up all the info in the paragraph. Any organization “dedicated to the installation of Sharia law” may intend to do so by peaceful means, but maintaining Sharia law would entail some violence—against women.
| 92 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:23:22am |
Obama supposedly speaking again today…
American officials making more statements than Egyptians! :D
93 |
Surabaya Stew Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:23:28am |
OT: Paul the Younger has taken it to the level which we Lizards knew was coming but now everbody else is acting all supprised….Cutting off Aid to Israel.
| 94 |
What, me worry? Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:23:53am |
The financing of Hamas (2003):
b. The Foundations - The Hamas was established from cells of the Muslim Brotherhood organization that had already been active in the territories. The Muslim Brotherhood is recognized as a social movement, and constitutes a convenient arena for the activities of individuals and groups deriving extreme religious legitimacy from the organization. The Muslim Brotherhood does not only provide ideological and logistical support for the Hamas; The Egyptian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood was a significant influence behind the formation of the Hamas organization.
From Kindergarten to Suicide Attacks (1996)
HAMAS’ central philosophy is based upon the ideology of the Muslim Brotherhood, but with one important difference the Muslim Brotherhood views the jihad as a commandment of principles which can only be realized once Muslim believers are “purified” and Islamic law reigns over the entire Arab world. On the other hand, HAMAS has made the jihad its top priority, as a contemporary and immediate holy war to liberate the Palestinian people and the Land of Palestine from “the foreign, heretical Israeli occupier.” Therefore, HAMAS belief strongly negates the entire political process, as well as recognition of the State of Israel and its right to exist.
| 95 |
Ericus58 Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:24:19am |
TPD, where are you going with this meme of yours that perhaps the MB ain’t all that bad?
| 96 |
Talking Point Detective Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:24:41am |
re: #91 wrenchwench
That section seems to be very poorly sourced, ie: the one footnote it has doesn’t back up all the info in the paragraph. Any organization “dedicated to the installation of Sharia law” may intend to do so by peaceful means, but maintaining Sharia law would entail some violence—against women.
Agreed. Which is why you always need to take Wikipidia with a grain of salt. Then again, Riedel seems like a pretty credible source (baring more information about him), and Wikipedia does usually give you a pretty good sense of the range of opinions.
| 97 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:24:44am |
Return of pan-Arabism? Decline of Islamism? Important NYT article by Anthony Shadid nyti.ms
| 98 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:25:21am |
re: #93 Surabaya Stew
OT: Paul the Younger has taken it to the level which we Lizards knew was coming but now everbody else is acting all supprised…Cutting off Aid to Israel.
| 100 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:26:09am |
re: #86 Talking Point Detective
Do you have some links?
The Muslim Brotherhood opposes secular tendencies of Islamic nations and wants return to the precepts of the Qur’an, and rejection of Western influences. They also reject extreme Sufism. They organize events from prayer meetings to sport clubs for socializing.
The organization’s motto is as follows: “Allah is our objective. The Prophet is our leader. Qur’an is our law. Jihad is our way. Dying in the way of Allah is our highest hope”
An important aspect of the Muslim Brotherhood ideology is the sanctioning of Jihad such as the 2004 fatwa issued by Sheikh Yousef Al-Qaradhawi making it a religious obligation of Muslims to abduct and kill U.S. citizens in Iraq.
You have to take their Wikipage with a grain of salt. They are a well organized and funded political organization and they know how to play the game. This isn’t based on bogus smears from wingnut bloggers. They really are very very bad people but like Hamas and Al Qaeda, they also run schools and social programs for the poor.
| 101 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:27:23am |
Jordanians rally against corruption and poverty t.co
| 102 |
albusteve Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:27:41am |
re: #90 Talking Point Detective
To the evidence for your statements.
For example, most of the evidence I’ve seen so far, including the article by Riedel - points to a split between them and AQ.
what evidence do you want?….go surfing if you want
103 |
ryannon Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:27:51am |
re: #85 albusteve
I think Mu should tell his goons in the police force to stand down and quit shooting people…it does not appear to be doing much good, and it’s terrible PR
Steve, the police have totally evaporated - largely out of fear of being lynched for the earlier killings of protesters. Reports are that in some areas of the country - and perhaps Cairo as well - the police have released thugs from the jails to prey upon the general population. Others speak of police in civil clothing actually working with the looters.
At this moment, the army has shot some thugs and is attempting to protect property and people for the night. All this according to Al-Jazeera, which is getting the news right from the start.
104 |
jordash1212 Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:28:51am |
Where are you all getting your information on the Muslim Brotherhood? It seems like the general belief here is of the MB 50 years ago. I’ve found a few academic writings pointing out that the MB has abandoned the rejectionist and uncompromising ideas of Qutb and began to reexamine the ideas of founder Hasan al-Banna.
This article jstor.org from the International Journal of Middle East Studies claims that the MB has begun to embrace modern Islamic thinking and looks more like a modern political party.
Beyond the debate about the true ideology of the MB, it’s important to point out that there absolutely cannot be a democratic government in Egypt without bringing in Islamic elements. That might sound contradictory given the MB Islamist history, but I do think that has changed. Regardless of that fact, the majority of Egypt remains devoted to Islam. Unlike the younger generations, mere regime change is not good enough, it has to be legitimate within the mandates of Islam. Over time that religious makeup will change and I do think a more secular society will emerge. The MB can play that role, but they need to be given a chance. Look at it this way, if Islamic elements are not brought in to a new government, it will not be legitimate for a majority of Egyptians and they go right back to square one with a dictatorship, nepotism, and plenty of poverty and joblessness for all.
If you don’t believe me about the MB, read something besides Wikipedia or op-eds for character analysis. The MB is not the organization it was in the 50s and 60s and they need to be reckoned with. If there was a more established organization that had the ear of Muslims with a less violent history, I’d advocate dealing with them instead, but the MB is the best chance at forming truly democratic Egypt.
| 105 |
albusteve Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:29:31am |
re: #103 ryannon
Steve, the police have totally evaporated - largely out of fear of being lynched for the earlier killings of protesters. Reports are that in some areas of the country - and perhaps Cairo as well - the police have released thugs from the jails to prey upon the general population. Others speak of police in civil clothing actually working with the looters.
At this moment, the army has shot some thugs and is attempting to protect property and people for the night. All this according to Al-Jazeera, which is getting the news right from the start.
that’s good…let me rephrase….Mu should call off his dogs and stop shooting people
| 106 |
albusteve Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:30:04am |
re: #105 albusteve
that’s good…let me rephrase…Mu should call off his dogs and stop shooting people
except looters that is
| 107 |
wrenchwench Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:30:30am |
re: #96 Talking Point Detective
Agreed. Which is why you always need to take Wikipidia with a grain of salt. Then again, Riedel seems like a pretty credible source (baring more information about him), and Wikipedia does usually give you a pretty good sense of the range of opinions.
The range of opinions is beginning to disturb me. Or, rather, the reduction of the range…
108 |
lostlakehiker Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:31:22am |
re: #2 Killgore Trout
This article is making the rounds on lefty sites:
Don’t Fear Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood
Ugh. This does not make me feel better about the protests,
History happens. One can only make the best of it. Our only sensible move now is to mainly stand aside and watch, wishing the people of Egypt all the best.
We should not try to tinker with this explosive situation. A lot of people are getting killed, and we can’t prevent that. But we can escape blame for it by not playing in their game.
It’s a mistake to try to maintain Mubarak in power. He won’t last even with our help, and we’ll inflame the people of Egypt against us. Yes, there’s a danger the Muslim Brotherhood will come to power. But this danger cannot be warded off by shoring up Mubarak. Even if he managed to secure his power for this month and next, the damage has been done and some other trigger will topple his regime before long, and then the MB would be stronger than ever.
Realpolitik is overrated in any event. Our generic best move is to just be nice. Exceptions should not be the rule.
| 109 |
albusteve Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:31:29am |
re: #107 wrenchwench
The range of opinions is beginning to disturb me. Or, rather, the reduction of the range…
MB can write their own wikishit if they want
| 110 |
Talking Point Detective Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:31:42am |
re: #95 Ericus58
TPD, where are you going with this meme of yours that perhaps the MB ain’t all that bad?
I’m not going in any particular direction.
| 111 |
wrenchwench Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:31:55am |
re: #104 jordash1212
Your link did not work for me, and that post really needs a link.
| 112 |
What, me worry? Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:32:35am |
re: #93 Surabaya Stew
The steadfast support for Israel is widespread in Congress and Paul’s proposal is certain to face strong opposition. In a fresh example of that support, six senior members of the House sent a letter to President Barack Obama imploring him to promise a veto of a pending U.N. resolution that condemns Israel and urging him to pressure Palestinian leaders to negotiate directly with Israel.Signing the letter were House Majority Leader Eric Cantor, R-Va.; House Democratic Whip Steny Hoyer, D-Md.; Foreign Affairs Chairwoman Ilena Ros-Lehtinen, R-Fla.; the panel’s top Democrat, Rep. Howard Berman of California, and the heads of the committee’s subcommittee on the Middle East, Reps. Steve Chabot, R-Ohio and Gary Ackerman, D-N.Y.
Read: bipartisan support.
His father is an isolationist also.
He wants to cut all foreign aid. Where does he think he lives? Mars? This is a very small planet and it’s getting smaller. He’s a freakin nut.
| 113 |
Talking Point Detective Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:32:44am |
| 114 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:33:39am |
| 115 |
What, me worry? Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:34:31am |
re: #104 jordash1212
If you don’t believe me about the MB, read something besides Wikipedia or op-eds for character analysis.
I have. You are naive.
| 116 |
ryannon Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:35:07am |
re: #106 albusteve
except looters that is
I don’t think he’s in any position to give many orders. I believe that the army has taken things into its own hands and is with the people, for the time being. And the army is shooting looters, that, yes.
| 118 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:36:37am |
Interesting: Hints of Qatari fears from al-Jazeera
119 |
Lidane Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:36:51am |
Completely OT, but I wish I had enough understanding of law to be able to parse this:
Virginia House Revives Doctrine of ‘Interposition’ Last Used To Defend Jim Crow
| 120 |
jordash1212 Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:37:13am |
re: #111 wrenchwench
The link works, but JStor isn’t exactly free. I got in through my university’s proxy that pays for the subscription.
| 121 |
Talking Point Detective Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:37:27am |
re: #104 jordash1212
Look at it this way, if Islamic elements are not brought in to a new government, it will not be legitimate for a majority of Egyptians and they go right back to square one with a dictatorship, nepotism, and plenty of poverty and joblessness for all.
Which is why I’d like more information. They aren’t going away. It is possible for there to be “Islamist” organizations which do promote a modernized concept of Islam - as opposed to organizations like AQ.
Any comment on the fatwa mentioned in Kilgore’s post?
| 122 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:38:30am |
A video report broadcast on Al Jazeera a short time ago showed protesters in Tahrir (Liberation) Square in central Cairo, apparently unmolested by troops on the streets. The Arab network’s report also included footage of an Egyptian soldier standing on a tank in the city with a megaphone, calling the protesters “honest men” and telling them to “demonstrate and express yourselves as much as you want, but at night clear the streets and let us handle the thugs.”
| 123 |
jordash1212 Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:38:35am |
re: #121 Talking Point Detective
Link me and I’ll read it.
| 124 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:39:08am |
re: #120 jordash1212
The link works, but JStor isn’t exactly free. I got in through my university’s proxy that pays for the subscription.
She might have refered to the fact that the link in your original post did not work because the LGF script parsed the ending ) as part of the link.
| 125 |
Talking Point Detective Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:39:29am |
re: #107 wrenchwench
The range of opinions is beginning to disturb me. Or, rather, the reduction of the range…
Not sure where you’re going with that. Do you mean that you think I’m reducing the range?
| 126 |
Surabaya Stew Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:39:30am |
re: #112 marjoriemoon
Read: bipartisan support.
His father is an isolationist also.
He wants to cut all foreign aid. Where does he think he lives? Mars? This is a very small planet and it’s getting smaller. He’s a freakin nut.
Agreed 100%. I left a comment on KT’s page to that effect. (Thanks KT!)
Seriously, didn’t the folks in Kentucky who claim to love Israel, yet voted for this fool do any research?
| 127 |
albusteve Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:39:58am |
re: #117 jordash1212
Show me yours then…
your link is it’s one page of some paper that is all opinion…not much there
| 128 |
wrenchwench Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:40:27am |
re: #121 Talking Point Detective
Which is why I’d like more information. They aren’t going away. It is possible for there to be “Islamist” organizations which do promote a modernized concept of Islam - as opposed to organizations like AQ.
Any comment on the fatwa mentioned in Kilgore’s post?
Use of terminology might need clarification. Would you agree with this?
Islamist = promotes a fundamentalist version of Islam
Islamic = of Islam (more generic)
| 129 |
What, me worry? Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:40:51am |
re: #117 jordash1212
Show me yours then…
The smuggling of weapons into Gaza that’s gone on for 20 odd years. Hamas was formed as an arm of the Brotherhood and they still function that way. I posted it upthread. They idea that today they are all warm and fuzzy is ludicrous.
Go down and read the link at #7 “Jihad - Hassan al-banna” The founder of the M.B.
130 |
Kid A Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:41:08am |
Some choice Hot Air posts. After reading these - ahem - thought-provoking comments, one must believe that it’s all Obama’s fault that Egypt is in flames right now.
///
1. Glad to see he made it back from his campaign trip to WI yesterday.
Say, won’t the Obamas’ presence at this basketball game be disruptive? Oh, silly me, that only happens at churches.
IrishEi
2. But all our Boy King is doing right now is “reviewing” our foreign aid to Egypt.
David2.0
3. Guess we’ll soon be seeing the $7.00 a gallon gas 0bama thinks we should be paying.
OmahaConservative
4. Muslim Brotherhood == Community Organizers
Geochelone
5. Mubarak + Obama + poverty + religion = Where we are.
The Sunnis and Shias will unite and fight each other.
Whoever wins will then fight Europe and etc.
The 2008 election will be written about for thousands of years as the catalyst for world decline and eventual destruction.
Schadenfreude
Wow! I feel sooooo much better!
///
| 131 |
Surabaya Stew Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:41:52am |
Allrighty, got to go and meet with Surabaya Sue for lunch. Later, Lizards!
| 132 |
What, me worry? Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:42:05am |
re: #126 Surabaya Stew
Agreed 100%. I left a comment on KT’s page to that effect. (Thanks KT!)
Seriously, didn’t the folks in Kentucky who claim to love Israel, yet voted for this fool do any research?
It’s all part of going back to the “way things were”. As if we close our eyes, shut out the world, life will be glorious. They are naive, ignorant.
| 133 |
wrenchwench Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:42:39am |
re: #125 Talking Point Detective
Not sure where you’re going with that. Do you mean that you think I’m reducing the range?
Not you. I’m surprised at all the “MB ain’t so bad” sentiment I’m seeing in general. Maybe it’s a pushback against Bolton saying Mubarak is a better alternative and his lack of support for the protesters.
| 134 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:44:48am |
re: #130 Kid A
See also littlegreenfootballs.com
| 135 |
albusteve Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:44:50am |
re: #128 wrenchwench
Use of terminology might need clarification. Would you agree with this?
Islamist = promotes a fundamentalist version of Islam
Islamic = of Islam (more generic)
I do, I pointed it out yesterday as well….might have to pound it for awhile
| 136 |
jordash1212 Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:46:22am |
re: #127 albusteve
I’ll take the writings of a professor at Barnard Columbia as more substantial and accurate than the reposts at countless blogs that seem to be posted as truth here.
| 137 |
albusteve Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:47:36am |
re: #136 jordash1212
I’ll take the writings of a professor at Barnard Columbia as more substantial and accurate than the reposts at countless blogs that seem to be posted as truth here.
maybe she’s a terrorist on weekends…who knows?
| 138 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:47:47am |
Army intervenes to protect protesters from police:
| 139 |
Talking Point Detective Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:48:11am |
re: #128 wrenchwench
Use of terminology might need clarification. Would you agree with this?
Islamist = promotes a fundamentalist version of Islam
Islamic = of Islam (more generic)
Thanks for the subtle hint.
That’s why I put Islamist in quotes. I meant it more generically - as someone interested in promoting Islam. I should have been more clear.
Yes - I agree that in the vernacular - what you wrote seems to be the accepted terminology.
But I’m not even clear if there is a legitimate cleavage between someone who has a fundamentalist view and someone who promotes violence against women or advocates terrorism.
I have met Muslims who consider themselves pretty traditional but who would reject terrorism. I’ve met others who see Koranic verses which, say, a husband should beat their wives as a metaphorical reference, and who would never actually advocate the hitting of a woman.
I’m thinking along the lines of a Jim Walis - who identifies as an evangelical - but who rejects rightwing fundamentalism and whose political ideology I accept.
| 140 |
ryannon Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:48:55am |
Opposition leader and former cell-mate of top Muslim Brotherhood official on AJ: “This is the revolution of the 60 percent of the people under 30 all over the mid-east and the MB has no place in it.”
| 141 |
Talking Point Detective Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:49:12am |
re: #137 albusteve
maybe she’s a terrorist on weekends…who knows?
Was Riedel also a terrorist on weekends during the 29 years he worked for the CIA?
Who knows?
| 142 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:49:33am |
re: #133 wrenchwench
Not you. I’m surprised at all the “MB ain’t so bad” sentiment I’m seeing in general. Maybe it’s a pushback against Bolton saying Mubarak is a better alternative and his lack of support for the protesters.
I think you’re right. The Eurofascist supporting anti-Islam bloggers have done a huge disservice. A lot of people will discount information on groups like MB as propaganda. It’s a shame.
The MB is smart, they are laying low and not issuing statements or making a noticeable presence in the protests but I’m becoming increasingly convinced they will be the chief beneficiaries if these protests topple the government.
| 143 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:49:56am |
re: #133 wrenchwench
Not you. I’m surprised at all the “MB ain’t so bad” sentiment I’m seeing in general. Maybe it’s a pushback against Bolton saying Mubarak is a better alternative and his lack of support for the protesters.
John Bolton pines for the days when the US could just give a repressive tyrant lots of money and weapons, and they would keep the masses quiet so we didn’t have to worry about them, or see the atrocities committed against them.
But it looks like those days are gone for good — it’s not possible any more to maintain the level of absolute autocratic control necessary to keep that status quo functioning, with huge populations of tech-savvy young people becoming increasingly aware of how rotten their governments are.
| 144 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:51:10am |
CNN is reporting that sources say Mubarak is about to step down…
| 145 |
albusteve Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:51:38am |
re: #141 Talking Point Detective
Was Riedel also a terrorist on weekends during the 29 years he worked for the CIA?
Who knows?
could be..I’ll bet the CIA has some real shady operatives working for them
| 146 |
wrenchwench Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:52:40am |
re: #136 jordash1212
I’ll take the writings of a professor at Barnard Columbia as more substantial and accurate than the reposts at countless blogs that seem to be posted as truth here.
Two things:
1) What is being reposted from countless blogs as truth here?
2) I need more than one page from El-Ghobashy to see what she has to say.
| 147 |
ryannon Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:52:54am |
“Many holiday-makers have decided to stay in the capital” with interviews of tourists apparently non-plussed by all the fuss.
| 148 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:53:05am |
Talk about stuff going down in Sudan now: sudan30january.blogspot.com
| 149 |
Talking Point Detective Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:53:19am |
| 150 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:53:34am |
re: #148 000G
Google Translation: sudan30january.blogspot.com
| 151 |
jordash1212 Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:53:35am |
re: #129 marjoriemoon
You must have missed the part where that professor explained that the MB has moved away from Sayyid Qutb’s uncompromising ideology and begun to reexamine, cautiously, the ideas of al-Banna.
And are you sure you can make the conclusion that the MB is responsible for weapons smuggling into Gaza? Would you mind providing a little more substance there? For the record, hundreds of Islamic groups spawned across the Arab world from the MB. You are still looking at the group through 50 year old lenses. I’ve read Qutb and al-Banna. I know the history. I know the MB had a secret “apparatus” responsible for terrorist acts against the Egyptian government and the British. That is not the case anymore.
| 152 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:53:59am |
re: #149 Talking Point Detective
It doesn’t appear to be sourced.
[Link: www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org…]
“Source: Wikipedia”
| 153 |
jordash1212 Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:54:42am |
re: #146 wrenchwench
Do some reading on your own then. Many libraries have access to these journals and other resources with the same kinds of information.
| 155 |
austin_blue Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:56:04am |
re: #144 Charles
CNN is reporting that sources say Mubarak is about to step down…
Wow. Get that man a G-5 and a ticket to Geneva.
All hell will break loose unless the Army clamps down keeps things calm.
Can’t wait to see the price of oil on Monday.
| 156 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:56:14am |
157 |
Stanley Sea Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:56:36am |
Lizards as usual provide brain food. Thanks.
| 158 |
Talking Point Detective Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:56:36am |
re: #142 Killgore Trout
I think you’re right. The Eurofascist supporting anti-Islam bloggers have done a huge disservice. A lot of people will discount information on groups like MB as propaganda. It’s a shame.
That’s where I’m coming from. My first exposure to hearing about the MB was from total Islamophobes. My default stance is to take anything they say with a grain of salt.
Do you have any information about Riedel that leads you to discount him as an analyst?
| 160 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:57:32am |
CNN just reported from a Cairo neighborhood where looters on motorcycles, armed with swords, have been faced down by neighborhood patrols formed by residents in the sudden absence of police on the streets.
Amazing
| 161 |
wrenchwench Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:57:52am |
re: #139 Talking Point Detective
Thanks for the subtle hint.
That’s why I put Islamist in quotes. I meant it more generically - as someone interested in promoting Islam. I should have been more clear.
Yes - I agree that in the vernacular - what you wrote seems to be the accepted terminology.
But I’m not even clear if there is a legitimate cleavage between someone who has a fundamentalist view and someone who promotes violence against women or advocates terrorism.
I have met Muslims who consider themselves pretty traditional but who would reject terrorism. I’ve met others who see Koranic verses which, say, a husband should beat their wives as a metaphorical reference, and who would never actually advocate the hitting of a woman.
I’m thinking along the lines of a Jim Walis - who identifies as an evangelical - but who rejects rightwing fundamentalism and whose political ideology I accept.
I don’t feel the need to suss out where each Muslim comes down on the issues of his or her religion. It’s when they want to make their view of their religion the state version that public interest is warranted. That’s why it’s important to be clear what you mean by “Islamist”. To me it means a person who wants Islam as the state religion.
| 162 |
albusteve Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:58:14am |
| 164 |
wrenchwench Sat, Jan 29, 2011 11:59:25am |
re: #153 jordash1212
Do some reading on your own then. Many libraries have access to these journals and other resources with the same kinds of information.
You would not believe the low quality of the libraries I have access to. Is there nothing you can link to that shows what you believe about the “modern” Muslim Brotherhood?
| 165 |
wrenchwench Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:01:33pm |
re: #153 jordash1212
Do some reading on your own then. Many libraries have access to these journals and other resources with the same kinds of information.
You skipped #1.
| 166 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:01:45pm |
great moment for egypt, ppl completely governing themselves
Especially after all those decades… and longer…
| 167 |
albusteve Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:02:26pm |
| 168 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:03:34pm |
re: #158 Talking Point Detective
That’s where I’m coming from. My first exposure to hearing about the MB was from total Islamophobes. My default stance is to take anything they say with a grain of salt.
Do you have any information about Riedel that leads you to discount him as an analyst?
Not really, I don’t think he’s an Islamist and he does have credentials but his own article is is a whitewash. He mentions that the MB opposed British colonialism but fails to mention they were allied with Nazi Germany. Also this part….
The most problematic issue between the Ikhwan and America will be Israel. The Brotherhood raised an army to fight Israel in its war of independence in 1948. Its Palestinian branch was the nucleus for Hamas, and the Brotherhood retains links to the rulers of Gaza. The Ikhwan’s leaders understand the peace treaty with Israel is the cornerstone of modern Egyptian foreign policy and underwrites America’s $2 billion annual aid as well as the lucrative tourist trade, but they are very critical of Israel, its leader, and policies. Their base is fundamentally opposed to any Egyptian cooperation with Israel.The Israelis find themselves in the very unpleasant position of having a huge stake in the outcome of what happens in Egypt and absolutely no ability to influence the course of events, except to do harm by foolish statements or actions. No wonder a former Israeli ambassador to Cairo said this week that “I am very much afraid that [the opposition] wouldn’t be as committed to peace with Israel and would be bad for Israel.”
Even though he ways the MB is just peachy he does acknowledge they do support Hamas who is dedicated to the destruction of Israel. That’s a very serious problem and is going to create a lot of hardship, death and instability in the region. Even he knows this but thinks it’s just fine. I just disagree with his conclusions.
| 169 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:05:35pm |
Here’s a response to Riedel’s article….
The Muslim Brotherhood is No Friend
| 170 |
Talking Point Detective Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:06:18pm |
re: #161 wrenchwench
I don’t feel the need to suss out where each Muslim comes down on the issues of his or her religion. It’s when they want to make their view of their religion the state version that public interest is warranted. That’s why it’s important to be clear what you mean by “Islamist”. To me it means a person who wants Islam as the state religion.
Well - it seems that MB would fall into that category of an organization that wants Islam as a state religion.
But we may not have any choice there. If you have a democratic society that chooses to have Islam as their state religion, it’s what will happen. It may be that in Egypt (if not Indonesia or Turkey), the choice will be between such a state and an autocracy that brutally suppresses dissent.
To be clear, I’m not defending theocracy - but if I were given the choice between a democratic theocratic state that denounces terrorism and promotes women’s rights, and an autocratic theocratic state that promotes terrorism and mysogeny - I’d take the former.
In fact, I would support strong opposition to the later - and that’s why I’m trying to get a better read on what may possibly in a very large and powerful country populated, primarily, by Muslims.
171 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:06:27pm |
| 172 |
jordash1212 Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:06:58pm |
re: #164 wrenchwench
I’m kind of entering a legal grey area here, but this is a link to the PDF:
| 174 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:08:43pm |
re: #170 Talking Point Detective
To be clear, I’m not defending theocracy - but if I were given the choice between a democratic theocratic state that denounces terrorism and promotes women’s rights, and an autocratic theocratic state that promotes terrorism and mysogeny - I’d take the former.
Uh… “democratic theocratic”?
I don’t think you understand how religions work.
175 |
lawhawk Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:09:44pm |
Bernard Lewis would have a bit of a disagreement with the JSTOR assessment of the MB. MB will try to spread its ideology by all the means at its disposal, but its goals remain unchanged.
| 176 |
Ericus58 Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:10:09pm |
re: #169 Killgore Trout
Here’s a response to Riedel’s article…
The Muslim Brotherhood is No Friend
“Rubin goes on to quote Rajab Hilal Hamida, a member of the Brotherhood in Egypt’s parliament:
From my point of view, bin Ladin, al-Zawahiri and al-Zarqawi are not terrorists in the sense accepted by some. I support all their activities, since they are a thorn in the side of the Americans and the Zionists. … [On the other hand,] he who kills Muslim citizens is neither a jihad fighter nor a terrorist, but a criminal murderer. We must call things by their proper names!
In other words, Hamida is not concerned with al Qaeda’s attacks against Americans or Jews. Their killing of other Muslims is what he finds objectionable. This should offer us small comfort. :
177 |
Kragar Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:11:09pm |
The second day of a government-imposed curfew doesn’t deter thousands of demonstrators, who are essentially given free rein through the center of Cairo. For the most part, police are absent and protests in the downtown area are peaceful for much of Saturday.
178 |
Varek Raith Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:11:21pm |
Gee, supporting a dictator turned out not to work so well?
Who da thunk???
| 179 |
Talking Point Detective Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:11:44pm |
re: #169 Killgore Trout
Here’s a response to Riedel’s article…
The Muslim Brotherhood is No Friend
Thanks.
| 180 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:12:03pm |
re: #171 Sergey Romanov
They have an online archive with articles of varying scholarship, veracity and slant.
| 182 |
wrenchwench Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:13:04pm |
re: #171 Sergey Romanov
A full copy here:
[Link: www.ikhwanweb.com…]
Note: MB’s official English site.
Thanks. Now I have to read 23 pages. :(
It must be a very nice article if the MB puts it on their site. :)
| 183 |
jordash1212 Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:13:41pm |
re: #175 lawhawk
I enjoy Bernard Lewis and I heard him speak at HU last year. I’m slowly reading one of his books now, but I’m not entirely sure he’d disagree that the MB has changed its position of no compromise.
| 184 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:14:03pm |
re: #175 lawhawk
JSTOR is an online library of journal articles.
| 185 |
What, me worry? Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:14:57pm |
re: #151 jordash1212
You must have missed the part where that professor explained that the MB has moved away from Sayyid Qutb’s uncompromising ideology and begun to reexamine, cautiously, the ideas of al-Banna.
And are you sure you can make the conclusion that the MB is responsible for weapons smuggling into Gaza? Would you mind providing a little more substance there? For the record, hundreds of Islamic groups spawned across the Arab world from the MB. You are still looking at the group through 50 year old lenses. I’ve read Qutb and al-Banna. I know the history. I know the MB had a secret “apparatus” responsible for terrorist acts against the Egyptian government and the British. That is not the case anymore.
Read about the smuggling of weapons through the Philadelphi corridor, the passage from Egypt to Gaza.
There’s a ton of stuff on the web to read about the relationship between the MB and terrorist regimes, particularly Hamas.
| 186 |
Talking Point Detective Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:15:32pm |
re: #174 000G
Uh… “democratic theocratic”?
I don’t think you understand how religions work.
Well - you could have an official state religion and still be a democracy. I guess you’re right, though - that might not be a theocracy.
| 187 |
Uncle Obdicut Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:16:57pm |
re: #176 Ericus58
Is there a source for that other than the Weekly Standard? I don’t consider them at all reliable.
| 189 |
lawhawk Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:18:24pm |
2010 The ruling National Democratic Party’s Maged Boutros tells the BBC that if the protests get any worse, the rule of law will break down. “People have to wait and be patriotic, and not allow mobs and looters to dominate the streets,” Mr Boutros tells BBC News. He says Mr Mubarak was legitimately elected, and people are using an illegitimate way of expressing their views by violence, warning against what he describes as “mob rule”.
Boutros is once again showing the tone deaf nature of the ruling party and those aligned with Mubarak. They think that if they shuffle the deck chairs that the Titanic wont sink.
It’s sinking, and it’s sinking fast. The only question is the ultimate body count in the transition.
| 190 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:19:20pm |
re: #186 Talking Point Detective
Well - you could have an official state religion and still be a democracy. I guess you’re right, though - that might not be a theocracy.
Theocracy, as commonly understood, means a government authorized by a deity (in the loosest sense of the word), its will as to the specific form of government neccessarily being mediated by a special religious class, be it scholars or priests or what have you.
A peaceful, constitutional vote on which religion is the true one is not usually how it goes…
| 191 |
lawhawk Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:19:27pm |
re: #184 Sergey Romanov
I’m well aware of what JSTOR is; I was criticizing the item jordash was referencing.
| 192 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:20:05pm |
Interesting, here’s someone arguing for engagement with “Moderate Islamists”:
An article published by Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.
| 193 |
Talking Point Detective Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:20:07pm |
re: #171 Sergey Romanov
A full copy here:
[Link: www.ikhwanweb.com…]
Note: MB’s official English site.
Thanks. Looks like an interesting read.
| 194 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:21:21pm |
re: #191 lawhawk
Good. The article is still not a “JSTOR assessment of the MB” though.
| 195 |
Talking Point Detective Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:21:55pm |
re: #192 Sergey Romanov
Interesting, here’s someone arguing for engagement with “Moderate Islamists”:
[Link: www.ikhwanweb.com…]
An article published by Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.
Just curious as to your take.
| 196 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:22:29pm |
The US Treasury Department identified Zindani as a “Specially Designated Global Terrorist”, citing his long history of working with Osama bin Laden. Students of his Iman University were suspected of involvement in assassinations of missionaries and of former Yemeni Socialist Party former Poltiburo member Jarallah Omar. His name also appears on the UN 1267 Committee’s list[4] of individuals belonging to or associated with Al-Qaida.…
Al-Zindani spent his early college years in Egypt, studied at Ain Shams University (first studying biology and chemistry, but then switching to Islamic studies) where he failed to get a degree, returned to Aden in 1966, went to Saudi Arabia in 1967 where he was a senior official in the Islamic Call Organization, and returned home in 1970 where he formed the Yemini Muslim Brotherhood and devoted his life to politics.[
| 197 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:22:31pm |
| 198 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:23:28pm |
re: #195 Talking Point Detective
Not really sufficiently informed for a sweeping take. More on the side of caution and suspicion towards any Islamists, “moderate” or not.
| 199 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:23:53pm |
If you’re watching CNN, it’s not looking good in Egypt. Violence is spreading.
| 200 |
Uncle Obdicut Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:23:58pm |
In the end, any part that wants to impose religious law as the foundation of society is a disaster waiting to happen. Such a thing does not tend to become more liberal over time.
The Muslim Brotherhood may have mellowed in its support for violence as a political tactic, or it may not have, but religious law is a terrible foundation for a free society. It is worse than a dictatorship in many ways, since it often enjoys popular support beyond what a dictatorship does.
However, Iraq, with our soldiers still fighting in it, incorporated Sharia law into its constitution. We allowed Iraq to base its law on Sharia. Many people seem to forget that. I was bitterly disappointed when that occurred.
| 201 |
Ericus58 Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:24:27pm |
re: #187 Obdicut
Is there a source for that other than the Weekly Standard? I don’t consider them at all reliable.
I went to the link provided by KT.
I’ve searched to see it this was a attributable quote and haven’t as yet found any source that proves it wasn’t made by Rajab Hilal Hamida.
If anything, I think he’s got a track record of being consistent with this way of thinking.
| 202 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:24:39pm |
re: #199 Charles
If you’re watching CNN, it’s not looking good in Egypt. Violence is spreading.
What sources does CNN use? There is an awful lot of propaganda and counter-propaganda out there as to the extent of violence, who is committing it, etc.
| 203 |
lawhawk Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:24:44pm |
re: #194 Sergey Romanov
Jordash seems to understand what I wrote just fine. I dropped (that) from my comment.
204 |
The War TARDIS Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:25:04pm |
I’m hoping for a governmental situation similar to Finland. From Wikipedia page on Theocracy.
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland has a special relationship with the Finnish state, its internal structure being described in a special law, the Church Act.[25] The Church Act can be amended only by a decision of the Synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church and subsequent ratification by the parliament. The Church Act is protected by the Finnish constitution, and the state can not change the Church Act without changing the constitution. The church has a power to tax its members and all corporations unless a majority of shareholders are members of the Finnish Orthodox Church. The state collects these taxes for the church, for a fee. On the other hand, the church is required to give a burial place for everyone in its graveyards.[29] The Finnish president also decides the themes for the intercession days. The church does not consider itself a state church, as the Finnish state does not have the power to influence its internal workings or its theology, although it has a veto in those changes of the internal structure which require changing the Church Act. Neither does the Finnish state accord any precedence to Lutherans or the Lutheran faith in its own acts.
Don’t know if that is a Theocracy, but the Separation of Church and State in Finland is certainly weaker.
| 205 |
Talking Point Detective Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:25:33pm |
re: #187 Obdicut
Is there a source for that other than the Weekly Standard? I don’t consider them at all reliable.
The list of other articles by the author is……interesting.
And I’d have to say that the piece could fairly be criticized as slanted - for example, citing one official as being representative of the entire organization, and saying that the organization exists outside of Egypt but failing to mention some of the pro-women’s rights activities in those countries as described in the Wikipedia link.
| 206 |
Kragar Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:25:38pm |
Looters smash treasures, mummies in Egyptian Museum
Looters broke into the Cairo museum housing the world’s greatest collection of Pharaonic treasures, smashing several statues and damaging two mummies, while police battled anti-government protesters on the streets.Arabiya television showed soldiers, armed and in battle fatigues, patrolling the museum that houses tens of thousands of objects in its galleries and storerooms, including most of the King Tutankhamen collection. Display cases were shattered and several broken statues and porcelain figures lay on the floor.
A number of display cases appeared to have been emptied of some of their contents during Friday night’s break-in.
Egypt’s top archaeologist, Zahi Hawass, told state television Egyptians on the street had tried to protect the building, but that the looters had entered from above. Two mummies on display had been damaged.
“I felt deeply sorry…when I came this morning to the Egyptian Museum and found that some had tried to raid the museum by force last night,” Hawass, chairman of the Supreme Council of Antiquities, said.
| 207 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:25:55pm |
re: #204 ProLifeLiberal
I’m hoping for a governmental situation similar to Finland. From Wikipedia page on Theocracy.
Don’t know if that is a Theocracy, but the Separation of Church and State in Finland is certainly weaker.
It’s weaker in pretty much all of Europe, on average, than in the United States.
| 208 |
Summer Seale Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:26:08pm |
I’ll go on the record here and say I too fear the Muslim Brotherhood coming to power in Egypt or anywhere else, for that matter. But I don’t think anyone is going to be able to reliably predict what will happen if Mubarak steps down, and all the pontificating in the world isn’t going to tell us if it going to be a theocracy or a real democracy in Egypt, or even if it will keep the Camp David Peace Accords if the current dictator goes right now.
The point is: we really don’t have a clue, and we’re not going to find out until it happens. I fear for what will happen if he does go, but I fear even more for what will happen if he doesn’t. Imagine if he stays. The Arab world will accuse Israel and the USA even more of keeping him in power, as completely false and delirious an accusation as that is, and they will believe it. And the next time there is a revolution, there will be consequences to pay just for that stupid rumor. I’m sorry to say this, but the Arab world is full to the gills with the most insane rumors that are accepted as facts. People there believe in the most inane shit imaginable. I’d rather not see another major libel added to the already existing repertoire.
We might get lucky and the intellectuals might take power. It probably would be some sort of governing coalition like Iraq which is exceedingly messy but at least a bit more humane and productive from time to time. I don’t know. I just don’t think that Mubarak can stay in power without us suffering some very serious consequences because of it at this point.
| 209 |
The War TARDIS Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:27:35pm |
re: #207 000G
But that seems to be weak, even by European standards.
| 210 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:27:54pm |
Egypt riots are an intelligence chief’s nightmare
Western intelligence in general and Israeli intelligence in particular did not foresee the scope of change in Egypt, which may require a reorganization of the IDF.
If the Mubarak regime is toppled, the quiet coordination of security between Israel and Egypt will quickly be negatively affected. It will affect relations between Cairo’s relationship with the Hamas government in the Gaza Strip, it will harm the international forces stationed in Sinai.
It will mean the refusal of Egypt to continue to allow the movement of Israeli ships carrying missiles through the Suez canal, which was permitted for the last two years, according to reports in the foreign press, in order to combat weapons smuggling from Sudan to Gaza. In the long run, Egypt’s already-cold peace treaty with Israel will get even colder.
From the perspective of the IDF, the events are going to demand a complete reorganization. For the last 20 years, the IDF has not included a serious threat from Egypt in its operational plan.
In the last several decades, peace with Cairo has allowed the gradual thinning out of forces, the lowering of maximum age for reserve duty and the diversion of massive amounts of resources to social and economic projects.
The IDF military exercises focused on conflict with Hezbollah and Hamas, at most in collusion with Syria. No one prepared with any seriousness for a scenario in which an Egyptian division would enter Sinai, for example.
| 211 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:28:57pm |
| 212 |
Kragar Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:28:59pm |
Looting spreads in Egyptian cities
Residents in the Egyptian capital of Cairo have set up neighbourhood groups armed with guns, clubs and knives as looting spread across the capital, despite the deployment of army troops to restore order.
Witnesses also reported gangs of youths, some on motorbikes, roaming the streets, looting supermarkets, shopping malls and shops on Saturday.
Some of the gangs also entered wealthy residential areas of the capital, and gunfire could be heard in the city centre as well as outlying districts.
Residents also said that banks were broken into and hundreds of young men carted away televisions, fans and stereo equipment looted from the ruling National Democratic Party (NDP) near the Egyptian Museum, before setting the building alight.
The looting has prompted residents in some neighbourhoods, including the upscale Zamalek district in central Cairo, to set up vigilante groups to protect private property. Outside some apartment blocks, guards armed with machine guns had taken up posts.
| 213 |
Uncle Obdicut Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:29:13pm |
re: #201 Ericus58
Fair enough. I mean, I assume, until proved otherwise, that the Muslim Brotherhood is anti-Israel, and, to a lesser extent, anti-US. They may have changed, but an exclusionary group that seeks religious law is a terrible thing, even if they happen to be replacing worse tyrants than themselves. I’m not at all sad about Mubarak gone, but I won’t be in the least happy with an avowedly theocratic group coming to power.
A coalition would be the best to hope for, I think. Such things are precarious, especially when literally next door to Hamas— with the MB having links to Hamas.
| 214 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:30:32pm |
re: #209 ProLifeLiberal
But that seems to be weak, even by European standards.
Uhm, it did not strike me as terribly more fundamentalistic than the existing provisions in Germany.
To be honest, I have no clue who put Finnland on that Wikipedia page on what ground.
| 215 |
Varek Raith Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:31:27pm |
re: #214 000G
Uhm, it did not strike me as terribly more fundamentalistic than the existing provisions in Germany.
To be honest, I have no clue who put Finnland on that Wikipedia page on what ground.
Hence why wikipedia is to be taken with a truckload of salt.
;)
| 216 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:31:42pm |
The Muslim Brotherhood has announced that if Mubarak goes, they will put the peace treaty with Israel up for a referendum.
| 217 |
Ericus58 Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:31:42pm |
re: #213 Obdicut
Fair enough. I mean, I assume, until proved otherwise, that the Muslim Brotherhood is anti-Israel, and, to a lesser extent, anti-US. They may have changed, but an exclusionary group that seeks religious law is a terrible thing, even if they happen to be replacing worse tyrants than themselves. I’m not at all sad about Mubarak gone, but I won’t be in the least happy with an avowedly theocratic group coming to power.
A coalition would be the best to hope for, I think. Such things are precarious, especially when literally next door to Hamas— with the MB having links to Hamas.
All very true, totally agree.
| 218 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:32:14pm |
re: #216 Charles
The Muslim Brotherhood has announced that if Mubarak goes, they will put the peace treaty with Israel up for a referendum.
Heh, no surprise there.
| 219 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:32:22pm |
re: #207 000G
It’s weaker in pretty much all of Europe, on average, than in the United States.
Yet Europe is presented as an example of evil secularism :)
The truth is, in Europe you more or less don’t feel it. I certainly think that any kinds of state churches, state mosques and state synagogues should be cut off from the state, slowly or not - but surely. State religion is just bad. But in practice not all lack of separation is equal. Europe and Israel live more or less normally with the systems they have (which does not cancel the above).
| 220 |
Kragar Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:32:31pm |
re: #216 Charles
The Muslim Brotherhood has announced that if Mubarak goes, they will put the peace treaty with Israel up for a referendum.
Not really a suprise, but still disappointing news.
| 221 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:32:47pm |
re: #215 Varek Raith
Hence why wikipedia is to be taken with a truckload of salt.
;)
Probably confused people who think that “state church”, “state religion” and “theocracy” are all largely synonymous with one another.
| 222 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:33:34pm |
Abbas is getting nervous….
PA officials express concern over events in Egypt
Abbas phones Mubarak, expressing his support; Hamas spokesman says he hopes “revolution” leads to Egyptian president’s downfall.
Abbas was one of the few Arab leaders to phone ousted Tunisian President Zeine al-Abideen Bin Ali shortly before the latter fled to Saudi Arabia.
“President Mubarak has been a great supporter of the Palestinian Authority,” the PA official told The Jerusalem Post. “He also had an excellent relationship with President Abbas.”
The official pointed out that Mubarak had also sided with Fatah in its power struggle with Hamas.
| 223 |
lawhawk Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:33:50pm |
re: #210 Killgore Trout
Throw in the fact that Israel might lose access to oil from the Sinai fields, and Israel’s going to have to develop the Leviathan gas field in the Med rather quick. And that’s going to have a real effect on Israel’s military capabilities.
| 224 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:33:54pm |
re: #219 Sergey Romanov
Yet Europe is presented as an example of evil secularism :)
The truth is, in Europe you more or less don’t feel it.
Unless you are part of a minority religion that seeks equal rights and recognition. Muslims and Buddhists and especially Scientologists know how hard that can be in Europe.
| 225 |
Uncle Obdicut Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:33:56pm |
re: #216 Charles
The Muslim Brotherhood has announced that if Mubarak goes, they will put the peace treaty with Israel up for a referendum.
They seem to be assuming that they’ll be in power and able to do so.
| 226 |
The War TARDIS Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:34:07pm |
| 227 |
Kragar Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:35:06pm |
re: #225 Obdicut
They seem to be assuming that they’ll be in power and able to do so.
Its gas on the fire right now.
| 228 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:35:53pm |
re: #225 Obdicut
They seem to be assuming that they’ll be in power and able to do so.
They could also just flex their muscles, in order to get more popular support than they have at the moment.
| 229 |
lawhawk Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:36:14pm |
re: #225 Obdicut
They’re better organized than the protesters who are coming from disparate backgrounds and groups united only by the hatred of the Mubarak regime.
The Brotherhood has been around for decades and is well organized despite it being under assault by Mubarak’s secret police for years on end. It could very well be in position to exploit the vacuum left by Mubarak setting sail.
230 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:36:23pm |
re: #64 000G
You think about Humanity, and where it is today, and you can’t help feeling disgusted at us as species. We are brutal, evil and vile, and very quickly for congratulating ourselves on anything good we do, while we really don;t do that much and we know it. Anxiety is soaking up most people’s days. Everyone had become
pre-occupied with horror. Madness was fluttering everywhere.There are diagrams
illustrating all these problems- circles and hexagons and squares. Most troubling
were the fleeting signs that nothing could transform any of this into
something positive. You couldn’t help being both afraid and fascinated. Hearing about such incidents made you feel that the survival of mankind
didn’t seem very important on the long run. We were doomed. We deserved
it.When they finish those Colonies on the Moon, I will be on the first spaceship out of here. This planet is fucked!
| 231 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:37:52pm |
re: #230 WindUpBird
Angry young man. Today he’s on the streets with masses of people just like him, protecting more helpless people from getting looted.
| 232 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:38:50pm |
OT: Israel vs the Tea Party
Abbas was one of the few Arab leaders to phone ousted Tunisian President Zeine al-Abideen Bin Ali shortly before the latter fled to Saudi Arabia.
Pro-Israel activists decry GOP senator’s call to cut aid
Tea Party favorite Rand Paul stirs up members of both parties with assertion that foreign assistance should be cut to plug US deficit.
233 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:39:49pm |
re: #225 Obdicut
They seem to be assuming that they’ll be in power and able to do so.
They may have some reason to believe that’s how it will shake out, who knows? We don’t know everything that’s going on in the background with the MB or elBaradei.
| 234 |
The War TARDIS Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:40:01pm |
re: #224 000G
Scientology has a VERY sketchy history. As attested to in the links.
en.wikipedia.org
en.wikipedia.org
en.wikipedia.org
en.wikipedia.org
en.wikipedia.org
| 235 |
Ericus58 Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:40:11pm |
Cairo is Burning:
“2034 Protesters have set fire to the Egyptian Tax Authority headquarters, an office tower in central Cairo near the interior ministry and other government buildings, Reuters reports, citing witnesses. Smoke can be seen billowing from the building and the flames are visible from some distance away, witnesses say. There has also been gunfire reported in the area.”
| 236 |
What, me worry? Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:41:31pm |
LGF: The UC at Irvine and the Muslim Brotherhood (2008)
The Muslim Student Union was formed from the Muslim Brotherhood.
And here is Malik Ali, a vicious anti-Semitic.
Muslim Student Union once again brings Malik Ali to UC Irvine. In this video, Malik Ali admits that he supports Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, and Jihad at UC Irvine.
“Do you support Hamas?”
- Yes
“Do you support Hizzbolah?
- Yes
“Do you support Jihad on this campus?”
- As long as it’s a form of speaking truth to power, yes.
Btw, the Muslim Student Union was suspended in Irvine for the 2010-2011 year for the anti-Semitism.
| 237 |
Uncle Obdicut Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:41:46pm |
re: #229 lawhawk
I hope that the arrogance of the Muslim Brotherhood assuming they’ll be in a position to call a referendum will work against them, and the same people marching for freedom now will resist such an obvious assumption of power.
Hope’s all we get.
| 238 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:43:11pm |
re: #234 ProLifeLiberal
Scientology has a VERY sketchy history.
I know. Irrelevant to the question (which for constitutional questions is about whether something is recognized as a religion at all, not whether it is a good or bad religion).
| 239 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:43:47pm |
re: #224 000G
I won’t cry for Church of Scientology, but how are Muslims or Buddhists discriminated on a state level?
| 240 |
Summer Seale Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:44:06pm |
re: #234 ProLifeLiberal
Scientology has a VERY sketchy history. As attested to in the links.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]
[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]
[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]
[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]
[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]
Scientology is a total scam for dupes and idiots and run by completely self-deluded criminals. I pity Scientologists in the same way that I pity Branch Davidian or Heaven’s Gate cult members. Most of them are prisoners and don’t even know it and are enslaved by an extremist and stupid fantasy which never had an anchor in any reality whatsoever.
| 241 |
Winny Spencer Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:45:27pm |
re: #239 Sergey Romanov
I won’t cry for Church of Scientology, but how are Muslims or Buddhists discriminated on a state level?
They aren’t.
| 242 |
tradewind Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:45:36pm |
I truly hope that POTUS has someone nearby whispering in his ear ’ Carter, Iran… Iran, Carter ‘, to prevent a repeat.
Can’t say that Condi didn’t try to warn about this.
| 244 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:45:42pm |
re: #240 Summer
Uh, there’s no reason to disparage lay members. CoS’ views are hardly more ridiculous than Christianity or any other religion.
| 245 |
The War TARDIS Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:46:41pm |
re: #240 Summer
Considering the part about Operation Snow White, I see no issue with the actions of European governments regarding it.
| 246 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:46:57pm |
re: #244 Sergey Romanov
Uh, there’s no reason to disparage lay members. CoS’ views are hardly more ridiculous than Christianity or any other religion.
the big difference with the CoS is it’s newer
| 247 |
Winny Spencer Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:47:06pm |
re: #244 Sergey Romanov
Uh, there’s no reason to disparage lay members. CoS’ views are hardly more ridiculous than Christianity or any other religion.
The founder is a more obvious fraud though.
248 |
bratwurst Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:47:47pm |
re: #242 tradewind
I truly hope that POTUS has someone nearby whispering in his ear ’ Carter, Iran… Iran, Carter ‘, to prevent a repeat.
Can’t say that Condi didn’t try to warn about this.
Shocking that you would be seeing this situation through a hyper partisan prism. SHOCKING.
| 249 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:47:55pm |
re: #246 WindUpBird
the big difference with the CoS is it’s newer
How is that a difference when we’re talking about people accepting the religion?
| 250 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:49:38pm |
re: #249 Sergey Romanov
How is that a difference when we’re talking about people accepting the religion?
It’s not, my point is that CoS isn’t any different, it’s just attacked more because it’s newer
Honestly, CoS isn’t nearly as sketchy as the catholic church hierarchy these days
| 251 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:50:05pm |
re: #239 Sergey Romanov
I won’t cry for Church of Scientology, but how are Muslims or Buddhists discriminated on a state level?
It’s not so bad anymore, but still the way the German government is set up, it has huge problems to “deal with” Islam because of the way that Islam organizes itself. Problems circle around “integration”. German state institutions have been set up to deal with church structures, in a legal process that took centuries to develop and Christianity benefits greatly from the state through that. Islam does not organize in churches. Google “German Islam Conference” to get an idea of what this is all about.
Buddhism, for instance, was not recognized as a religion in Austria until 1983 and until then of course was not benefitting in its organizational structures from all sorts of tax exemptions the traditional majority religions enjoyed.
| 252 |
tradewind Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:50:13pm |
re: #244 Sergey Romanov
Your post: why the phrase ’ in my opinion ’ was invented.
| 253 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:50:26pm |
re: #247 Winny Spencer
The founder is a more obvious fraud though.
In the end all religions are fraud, so let’s start describing all followers as they were described above, eh?
| 254 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:50:27pm |
re: #248 bratwurst
Shocking that you would be seeing this situation through a hyper partisan prism. SHOCKING.
we should make it a drinking game
| 255 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:50:52pm |
re: #247 Winny Spencer
The founder is a more obvious fraud though.
Also: no more so than Joseph Smith.
| 256 |
tradewind Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:51:02pm |
re: #248 bratwurst
Try substituting ’ historical ’ for ’ hyperpartisan’ and you’d be correct.
Had Carter been a Republican, the same would apply.
| 257 |
lawhawk Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:51:25pm |
More fires reported in the vicinity of the Cairo Museum:
2047 The headquarters of the ruling National Democratic Party are ablaze in central Cairo, and there are mounting concerns that the flames could spread to the nearby Egyptian Museum, which houses some of the country’s most important cultural and historical artefacts.
2034 Protesters have set fire to the Egyptian Tax Authority headquarters, an office tower in central Cairo near the interior ministry and other government buildings, Reuters reports, citing witnesses. Smoke can be seen billowing from the building and the flames are visible from some distance away, witnesses say. There has also been gunfire reported in the area.
| 259 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:51:49pm |
re: #253 Sergey Romanov
In the end all religions are fraud, so let’s start describing all followers as they were described above, eh?
And this is exactly why Establishment Clause has to go hand in hand with Free Exercise Clause ;-)
| 260 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:52:06pm |
re: #252 tradewind
Your post: why the phrase ’ in my opinion ’ was invented.
It’s only your opinion.
| 261 |
Winny Spencer Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:52:37pm |
re: #250 WindUpBird
It’s not, my point is that CoS isn’t any different, it’s just attacked more because it’s newer
Honestly, CoS isn’t nearly as sketchy as the catholic church hierarchy these days
Does the catholic church charge its adherents six figure-sums to look inside the bible? CoS is a scam from top to bottom.
| 262 |
The War TARDIS Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:52:50pm |
re: #245 ProLifeLiberal
Though Germany does take their dislike of Scientology to interesting heights.
| 263 |
tradewind Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:53:31pm |
re: #260 Sergey Romanov
Only?
Yeah, no.
But sure. It’s my opinion.
| 264 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:53:36pm |
re: #253 Sergey Romanov
In the end all religions are fraud, so let’s start describing all followers as they were described above, eh?
Actually, it’s the opposite, let’s treat followers with respect, and let’s also be critical of very human heirarchical structures that are shot through with corruption. I don’t really agree with the notion that CoS is less legitimate than major religions, it’s really not any less legitimate
| 265 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:54:14pm |
re: #261 Winny Spencer
Does the catholic church charge its adherents six figure-sums to look inside the bible? CoS is a scam from top to bottom.
No, it just shelters people who anally rape boys
I’ll take the six figure scam over the rapin’, if it’s all the same to you ;-)
| 266 |
Varek Raith Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:54:39pm |
re: #242 tradewind
I truly hope that POTUS has someone nearby whispering in his ear ’ Carter, Iran… Iran, Carter ‘, to prevent a repeat.
Can’t say that Condi didn’t try to warn about this.
I don’t get you types.
Freedom spreading in the ME during the Bush Admin = GOOD.
Freedom spreading in the ME now = BAD.
| 267 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:54:47pm |
re: #261 Winny Spencer
Does the catholic church charge its adherents six figure-sums to look inside the bible? CoS is a scam from top to bottom.
Org is a scam, leaders are criminals, you won’t get an argument from me here. Those who sincerely believe in its religious doctrines are no more “idiots” and “dupes” than your average Christian or Muslim. And don’t forget about non-organizational forms of scn, the Free Zone, that follow only beliefs.
| 268 |
bratwurst Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:54:55pm |
re: #262 ProLifeLiberal
Though Germany does take their dislike of Scientology to interesting heights.
[Link: www.indybay.org…]
I think I have reported here before that as a teacher in Germany for many years I FREQUENTLY had to sign “Scientology clauses” in work contracts, stating that I would not use their “technology” in my classroom!
| 269 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:55:00pm |
re: #262 ProLifeLiberal
Though Germany does take their dislike of Scientology to interesting heights.
[Link: www.indybay.org…]
Link no worky. Try state.gov
The government continued to deny recognition of some belief systems, including Scientology, as religions; however, the absence of recognition did not prevent their adherents from engaging in public and private religious activities.
Federal and some state authorities continued to classify Scientology as a potential threat to democratic order, resulting in discrimination against Scientologists in both the public and private sectors. Scientology members reported the use of so-called “sect filters” by many associations and organizations, where eligibility for membership is contingent upon applicants confirming that they do not belong to the Church of Scientology. On June 27, the Hamburg Administrative Court fined the city of Hamburg 5,000 Euros ($7,000) for violating a 2006 court decision banning the use of “sect filters.” The Hamburg Interior Ministry’s Working Group on Scientology continued to maintain links to sample filters for use by businesses.
The FOPC and the state-level OPCs in Baden-Wuerttemberg, Bavaria, Berlin, Bremen, Hamburg, and Lower Saxony kept the Church of Scientology under “observation” (surveillance) based on a stated concern that its teachings and practices contravene the democratic constitutional order or violate human rights. The courts have considered but rejected cases brought by the Church of Scientology to force the federal- and state-level domestic intelligence agencies to halt surveillance of the church.
On November 21, the conference of state interior ministers decided not to consider a ban of the Church of Scientology, citing insufficient legal evidence to support such an approach. Nonetheless, in its report the ministers concluded that Scientology had little in common with the country’s democratic constitution and that its goals were “incompatible with the essential characteristics of a free and democratic basic order.” Therefore, the FOPC also recommended continued observation of the organization’s activities.
Scientologists continued to report instances of official and societal discrimination during the year.
In September the Hamburg Interior Ministry’s Working Group on Scientology hosted a seminar critical of Scientology entitled “That is Scientology! Reports from the U.S.A.” for an audience that included representatives of state ministries of interior, education, and social affairs as well as participants from Belgium and France.
| 270 |
tradewind Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:55:07pm |
re: #254 WindUpBird
Shouldn’t you be down at Pioneer Square holding a poster?
Think of the performance art possibilities.
| 271 |
What, me worry? Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:55:14pm |
re: #244 Sergey Romanov
Uh, there’s no reason to disparage lay members. CoS’ views are hardly more ridiculous than Christianity or any other religion.
While I’ve been seething over the idea of democratic peaceful Muslim Brotherhood, I’m not sure how we got into the discussion of Scientology, but it’s not a religion in any way, shape or form and to compare it to Christianity is peculiar.
Where are its ancient texts? Where is the discussion of God?
Xenu? Body thetans? Really, I should have started my own cult 20 years ago. I could have done better than this.
272 |
Amory Blaine Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:55:36pm |
re: #265 WindUpBird
I’ll take the six figure scam over the rapin’, if it’s all the same to you ;-)
That will be for 1200 Alex.
| 273 |
Summer Seale Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:56:01pm |
I’ll disparage the CoS all I like, thank you. Let them try to sue me here in France. I’ll laugh at their attempt and flip them the bird. They use litigation to try to intimidate others into silence. At the very least, anyone can criticize Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Mormonism, and other religions. I’ll give them that much - and I think most people here know exactly how much of a “militant” atheist I can be.
The CoS is a pyramid enslavement scam with absolutely no philosophy behind it other than to milk people of their money. At least other major religions are free. It’s also an entirely criminal organization from the top down and run by dangerous lunatics who think they have absolute power. I’d like to see them one day go down in flames and I’ll clap and dance the day that they do. They are not a religion, they are a mafia blight on the earth.
| 274 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:56:32pm |
re: #264 WindUpBird
Actually, it’s the opposite, let’s treat followers with respect
My point, thank you.
, and let’s also be critical of very human heirarchical structures that are shot through with corruption. I don’t really agree with the notion that CoS is less legitimate than major religions, it’s really not any less legitimate
There is a diff between centralized and non-centralized religions in this respect. CoS as an organization is “less legitimate”.
| 275 |
tradewind Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:56:33pm |
re: #266 Varek Raith
Freedom spreading is a good idea, as long as there’s not a worse despotic regime coming in to replace the ousted dictator.
Distasteful as he was, I doubt the Shah would be threatening us with nukes.
| 276 |
The War TARDIS Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:57:22pm |
re: #268 bratwurst
Essentially, the link is pointing out that in Germany, Scientology is seen as a Threat to Democracy, alongside Islamic Radicalism and Organized Crime.
| 277 |
Varek Raith Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:57:23pm |
re: #275 tradewind
Freedom spreading is a good idea, as long as there’s not a worse despotic regime coming in to replace the ousted dictator.
Distasteful as he was, I doubt the Shah would be threatening us with nukes.
Ah, so you don’t actually support freedom in the ME.
Just as long as the dictator supports us.
| 278 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:57:26pm |
re: #273 Summer
LOL.
| 279 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:57:28pm |
re: #270 tradewind
Shouldn’t you be down at Pioneer Square holding a poster?
Think of the performance art possibilities.
nah, sorry, I make my art money here at home. ;-) I go to Pioneer Square for the beer festivals though, the real performance art is in the 7 pints of double alt and belgian tripel I had in December at the Holiday Ale fest
| 280 |
Amory Blaine Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:58:04pm |
re: #275 tradewind
That’s a problem. Who will grab power during a vacuum?
| 281 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:58:10pm |
re: #273 Summer
At the very least, anyone can criticize Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Mormonism, and other religions.
Uh… all religions are hostile to criticisms, some more, some less.
Has everybody here already forgotten the Cartoon Riots?
| 282 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:58:53pm |
re: #271 marjoriemoon
Excuse me, but are you setting parameters for other religions now?
| 283 |
Talking Point Detective Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:59:08pm |
re: #208 Summer
The Arab world will accuse Israel and the USA even more of keeping him in power, as completely false and delirious an accusation as that is, and they will believe it…. I’m sorry to say this, but the Arab world is full to the gills with the most insane rumors that are accepted as facts.
But that’s what we set ourselves up for when their military is firing tear gas canisters with “Made in the USA” stamped on them, when we give so much money to oppressive autocrats.
No doubt, there are crazy-assed rumors that even very educated people in Egypt believe - for example that the U.S. was behind 9/11 because Arabs are too incompetent to have pulled it off (that said, we have our truthers, too) - but we feed fuel to those fires and have for decades by our steadfast support for autocrats - driven by our thirst for oil.
| 284 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:59:22pm |
re: #274 Sergey Romanov
There is a diff between centralized and non-centralized religions in this respect. CoS as an organization is “less legitimate”.
Free Zone advocate! Heretic!
285 |
jaunte Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:59:44pm |
re: #277 Varek Raith
Whenever someone is hurting somewhere in the news, whether burning alive in a gas explosion in San Francisco, or shot by the police in Cairo, you can always rely on tradewind to pop up and take it as an opportunity to slam the current administration.
| 286 |
Summer Seale Sat, Jan 29, 2011 12:59:45pm |
re: #281 000G
Uh… all religions are hostile to criticisms, some more, some less.
Has everybody here already forgotten the Cartoon Riots?
No I haven’t forgotten. But nobody sued LGF in a court of law to prevent Charles talking about it either. Try publishing something in the USA about Xenu or other crap that the CoS “believes” in and see what lands in your mailbox - something about a cease and desist. Then you’ll see the difference.
| 287 |
Varek Raith Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:00:45pm |
re: #285 jaunte
Whenever someone is hurting somewhere in the news, whether burning alive in a gas explosion in San Francisco, or shot by the police in Cairo, you can always rely on tradewind to pop up and take it as an opportunity to slam the current administration.
CARTER!!!11ty!!11
| 288 |
Amory Blaine Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:00:56pm |
Why all the CoS talk? L. Ron Hubbard arisinigout of the pyramids or something?
| 289 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:01:14pm |
re: #286 Summer
No I haven’t forgotten. But nobody sued LGF in a court of law to prevent Charles talking about it either. Try publishing something in the USA about Xenu or other crap that the CoS “believes” in and see what lands in your mailbox - something about a cease and desist. Then you’ll see the difference.
Litigation through rule of law is less scary to me than mobs throwing firebombs, thank you.
| 290 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:01:27pm |
re: #274 Sergey Romanov
My point, thank you.
There is a diff between centralized and non-centralized religions in this respect. CoS as an organization is “less legitimate”.
I agree that CoS is really nutty, but I dunno, I see the whole “my religion is legitimate but his is less so” that’s a place I don’t really like going down, I know people who believe really individual and on the face of it, illegitimate things spiritually (you know, witchy occult stuff, not my scene but it works for them) and their moral compass makes a ton more sense than mainstream Christianity, which has just blended itself into right-wing ideology in America to the point where in parts of the country it can be hardly separated from it.
| 291 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:01:42pm |
re: #263 tradewind
Only?
Yeah, no.
But sure. It’s my opinion.
And you’re free to write “it’s my opinion” every time you express your opinion.
| 292 |
Varek Raith Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:01:47pm |
re: #288 Amory Blaine
Why all the CoS talk? L. Ron Hubbard arisinigout of the pyramids or something?
Mubarak confiscated the Ha’Tak class vessel from L. Ron years ago.
Get with the times man!
| 293 |
lawhawk Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:02:24pm |
re: #288 Amory Blaine
I guess that’d be better than if the Goa’uld showed up…
| 294 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:02:24pm |
re: #288 Amory Blaine
Why all the CoS talk? L. Ron Hubbard arisinigout of the pyramids or something?
that would be the turn of events
THE SPHINX IS COMING TO LIFE, IT IS RISING TO ITS FEET
IT’S
IT’S
L Ron Hubbard? Huh.
| 295 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:03:07pm |
re: #286 Summer
No I haven’t forgotten. But nobody sued LGF in a court of law to prevent Charles talking about it either. Try publishing something in the USA about Xenu or other crap that the CoS “believes” in and see what lands in your mailbox - something about a cease and desist. Then you’ll see the difference.
A snake!
| 296 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:03:57pm |
re: #290 WindUpBird
I agree that CoS is really nutty, but I dunno, I see the whole “my religion is legitimate but his is less so” that’s a place I don’t really like going down,
Well, that’s the problem, one religion is not more or less legitimate than the other, but religious organization is a whole another matter.
| 297 |
Amory Blaine Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:03:58pm |
re: #294 WindUpBird
As long as he isn’t being shat out of a space B52…
| 298 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:05:13pm |
Heh, funny conversation:
the collapse of ordinary police, traffic, fire fighting proves that free egypt should have these decentralized #Jan25
@alaa i love the American system where sheriffs ,police chefs, DEA s for every county are all elected directly from people #Jan25
You guys must not have heard of Sherrif Joe Arpaio of Maricopa County, Arizona @alaa @iafify
@samirnassar @alaa i am speaking about the system of electing police sheriffs and this man comparing to our torturing masters is an angel
@alaa @iafify it’s a horrible system. Every area becomes politicized unnecessarily. Police should be apolitical
It’s like a live debate on civics admidst discussin the revolution.
299 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:07:05pm |
re: #27 Charles
I’ll never understand why this kind of rhetoric appeals to some leftists. By any objective measure, political Islam is diametrically opposed to what we think of as “Western” liberalism. No freedom of speech, no freedom of religion, brutal repression of women, the list goes on and on. This has always been the ideological reason why I worked to oppose militant Islam.
It’s insane (or at least, incredibly naive) to say we shouldn’t be worried about an Islamic theocracy in Egypt. Theocracy is a bad thing, period.
This is the wages of the PLO, their successor orgs, and their friends abroad’s extraordinarily successful campaign to identify the Palestinian cause with all that is holy, indigenous, oppressed, and freedom-fightin’ in the mind of the international left.
I seriously doubt that it was Arafat’s intention to extend this free pass to the religious fanatics of the Arab world, but as they have dug their claws into the ongoing Palestinian situation, that has been the effect. Those who perceive al-Quaeda to be some sort of anti-imperialist organization haven’t helped.
The upshot is a whole bunch of Western left-wingers with little understanding of the Middle East who vaguely figure that anyone who’s against the United States is on the side of the angels, and that it might be imperialist and Eurocentric to worry about such things as women’s rights, freedom of religion, the press, and speech.
| 300 |
wrenchwench Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:07:37pm |
re: #298 000G
Nice to see that they can smell Sheriff Arpaio all the way over there.
| 301 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:08:27pm |
re: #300 wrenchwench
Nice to see that they can smell Sheriff Arpaio all the way over there.
So is that guy still in trouble?
| 302 |
What, me worry? Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:08:29pm |
re: #282 Sergey Romanov
Excuse me, but are you setting parameters for other religions now?
I suppose to an atheist, one man’s cult is another man’s religion. As a religious person, I don’t know how to argue that, but the idea of cloaking the seeking of the divine or spirituality, or to try to understand that which is beyond the physical, or to deny the 1000s of years of scholars who have devoted their lives to such pursuits as mere cultism is pretty naive. Maybe naive isn’t the right word. Short-sighted? shallow?
I’m assuming you think I am the one who is naive, but I’ll still believe the scholars.
| 303 |
Varek Raith Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:08:40pm |
re: #300 wrenchwench
Nice to see that they can smell Sheriff Arpaio all the way over there.
Heh, I know.
| 304 |
What, me worry? Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:08:58pm |
re: #288 Amory Blaine
Why all the CoS talk? L. Ron Hubbard arisinigout of the pyramids or something?
He’s going to overtake the vacuum in Egypt.
| 305 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:09:06pm |
re: #299 SanFranciscoZionist
The upshot is a whole bunch of Western left-wingers with little understanding of the Middle East who vaguely figure that anyone who’s against the United States is on the side of the angels, and that it might be imperialist and Eurocentric to worry about such things as women’s rights, freedom of religion, the press, and speech.
Too true. Not that they don’t worry about this, no. Just put them on a back-burner. (Where it will stay).
| 306 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:09:15pm |
re: #31 000G
It’s a sad but true fact that a lot of what passes for emancipating thought in leftist circles is merely a romantic yearning for a somehow, maybe magically, just and benevolent tribalism or feudalism to replace the inavoidable contradictions of a free society.
| 307 |
Varek Raith Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:09:17pm |
| 308 |
Talking Point Detective Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:10:05pm |
re: #275 tradewind
Freedom spreading is a good idea, as long as there’s not a worse despotic regime coming in to replace the ousted dictator.
Distasteful as he was, I doubt the Shah would be threatening us with nukes.
That’s the brilliant thinking that brought us a theocracy in Iran.
309 |
goddamnedfrank Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:11:27pm |
re: #275 tradewind
Freedom spreading is a good idea, as long as there’s not a worse despotic regime coming in to replace the ousted dictator.
Distasteful as he was, I doubt the Shah would be threatening us with nukes.
Right, because we never came to regret propping up Saddam Hussein for decades, or Reagan turning a blind eye and obstructing UN investigations into Saddam’s use of gas, providing him with training, arms, biological weapons strains from the USCDC, Pentagon satellite intel on his opposition, and giving his government a pass for murdering 37 sailors aboard the USS Stark.
So, let’s not pretend you have a goddamned clue as to what you’re talking about, ever, m’kay.
| 310 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:11:28pm |
re: #81 marjoriemoon
2 mummies were destroyed. Some statutes and jewelry damaged, but the citizens apparently came in and stopped them. The video they showed had the army (what it appeared to be the army) now guarding the museum.
Yeah, the army came in yesterday (I think), and locked the place down, and word was that civilians were doing their best to defend it earlier.
I am reassured that the general instinct was to protect Egypt’s history.
| 311 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:11:55pm |
re: #275 tradewind
Freedom spreading is a good idea, as long as there’s not a worse despotic regime coming in to replace the ousted dictator.
Distasteful as he was, I doubt the Shah would be threatening us with nukes.
All that torture and murder on our dime, that gets to be a bit distasteful, yep
| 312 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:12:32pm |
re: #302 marjoriemoon
I suppose to an atheist, one man’s cult is another man’s religion. As a religious person, I don’t know how to argue that, but the idea of cloaking the seeking of the divine or spirituality, or to try to understand that which is beyond the physical, or to deny the 1000s of years of scholars who have devoted their lives to such pursuits as mere cultism is pretty naive. Maybe naive isn’t the right word. Short-sighted? shallow?
I’m assuming you think I am the one who is naive, but I’ll still believe the scholars.
First of all, you tried to claim that Scientology is not a religion at all because it doesn’t have ancient texts and what not.
Second, I never used the word “cultism”. From the point of view of accordance of religion to reality all religions fail. It really is equally ridiculous to believe in virgin birth, parting of the red sea and body thetans. No amount of scholars spilling their ink will make it otherwise.
| 314 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:13:08pm |
re: #309 goddamnedfrank
Right, because we never came to regret propping up Saddam Hussein for decades, or Reagan turning a blind eye and obstructing UN investigations into Saddam’s use of gas, providing him with training, arms, biological weapons strains from the USCDC, Pentagon satellite intel on his opposition, and giving his government a pass for murdering 37 sailors aboard the USS Stark.
So, let’s not pretend you have a goddamned clue as to what you’re talking about, ever, m’kay.
For once a subject appropriate song:
| 315 |
Amory Blaine Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:13:16pm |
re: #310 SanFranciscoZionist
Yeah, the army came in yesterday (I think), and locked the place down, and word was that civilians were doing their best to defend it earlier.
I am reassured that the general instinct was to protect Egypt’s history.
A high cultural respect for history and the antiquities amongst the general population. Good reason for hope.
| 316 |
Winny Spencer Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:15:02pm |
re: #255 Sergey Romanov
Also: no more so than Joseph Smith.
I think that is plainly unfair. That man did a lot of good.
| 317 |
wrenchwench Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:15:57pm |
re: #301 WindUpBird
So is that guy still in trouble?
…Justice Department investigators have been in Maricopa County for much of this week conducting tours of sheriff’s facilities, reviewing documents and interviewing employees as part of the federal government’s investigation into allegations that Arpaio’s deputies target Hispanic residents and that the county provides inadequate provisions for non-English speakers in its jails.Complaints about Arpaio’s immigration operations, which began in the spring of 2008, are a key piece of the federal government’s investigation into the Sheriff’s Office. In Arpaio’s sweeps, hundreds of deputies and posse members conduct “zero tolerance” traffic stops, asking about immigration status if they become suspicious.
[…]
The civil-rights probe is unrelated to a separate abuse-of-power criminal investigation of the Sheriff’s Office by the Justice Department. The latter probe was spurred by long-running disputes within county government and the judiciary and has led to months of grand-jury testimony.
Federal investigators were scheduled to interview the sheriff today as part of the civil-rights probe, but Arpaio said it was rescheduled for next week.
The sheriff’s about-face on cooperating with the Justice Department investigation coincided with his chief deputy, David Hendershott, being placed on administrative leave while the Pinal County Sheriff’s Office conducts another separate probe into allegations of misconduct.
[…]
| 318 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:16:05pm |
Al Jazeera now confirms that Hosni Mubarak’s wife has left Egypt for London.
| 319 |
Varek Raith Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:16:24pm |
re: #318 Charles
Al Jazeera now confirms that Hosni Mubarak’s wife has left Egypt for London.
So it begins…
| 321 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:17:19pm |
re: #316 Winny Spencer
I think that is plainly unfair. That man did a lot of good.
I understand that children are flowers of life and all, but…
/
| 322 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:18:05pm |
| 323 |
Talking Point Detective Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:19:17pm |
re: #299 SanFranciscoZionist
This is the wages of the PLO, their successor orgs, and their friends abroad’s extraordinarily successful campaign to identify the Palestinian cause with all that is holy, indigenous, oppressed, and freedom-fightin’ in the mind of the international left.
I seriously doubt that it was Arafat’s intention to extend this free pass to the religious fanatics of the Arab world, but as they have dug their claws into the ongoing Palestinian situation, that has been the effect. Those who perceive al-Quaeda to be some sort of anti-imperialist organization haven’t helped.
The upshot is a whole bunch of Western left-wingers with little understanding of the Middle East who vaguely figure that anyone who’s against the United States is on the side of the angels, and that it might be imperialist and Eurocentric to worry about such things as women’s rights, freedom of religion, the press, and speech.
I get where you’re coming from, and I can’t speak to your experience (being in San Francisco I’m sure is a factor), but I have had contact with many old-time and newbie lefties who, while they generally oppose the policies of the rightwing elements of the Israeli government, and fear the political influence of fundamentalist Jews on Israeli policy, and who are generally sympathetic to the suffering of Palestinians, in no way condone oppression or women, or think it is imperialist to worry about free speech.
What I’m saying here is that I think it’s important to not demonize people by virtue over-generalization. I feel the same way about over-generalizing about Tea Partiers. I guess it comes down to the definition of what you mean by “whole bunch.”
| 324 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:19:54pm |
re: #242 tradewind
I truly hope that POTUS has someone nearby whispering in his ear ’ Carter, Iran… Iran, Carter ‘, to prevent a repeat.
Can’t say that Condi didn’t try to warn about this.
So, we should do whatever necessary to keep Mubarak in office?
What did Condi specifically warn about?
| 325 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:20:17pm |
re: #323 Talking Point Detective
I don’t think SFZ overgeneralized at all. She said a “bunch of” and it does exist.
| 326 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:20:38pm |
re: #256 tradewind
Try substituting ’ historical ’ for ’ hyperpartisan’ and you’d be correct.
Had Carter been a Republican, the same would apply.
Give me leave to doubt.
;)
| 327 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:21:18pm |
Heh:
RT @justimage The only times I’ve heard ElBaradei’s name mentioned in recent days is on TV by foreign media. #Egypt #jan25
G’d bless our perspectives.
| 328 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:22:57pm |
re: #277 Varek Raith
Ah, so you don’t actually support freedom in the ME.
Just as long as the dictator supports us.
I have to say, I have a bit of that myself.
I’m not saying I like it.
| 329 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:22:58pm |
re: #273 Summer
*whoosh*
That was the sound of the point passing by you. I never asked not to disparage CoS.
| 330 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:23:27pm |
re: #285 jaunte
Whenever someone is hurting somewhere in the news, whether burning alive in a gas explosion in San Francisco, or shot by the police in Cairo, you can always rely on tradewind to pop up and take it as an opportunity to slam the current administration.
San Bruno.
| 331 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:23:52pm |
re: #327 000G
Heh:
G’d bless our perspectives.
That’s not surprising. Egypt’s government controlled media isn’t going to give him airtime.
| 332 |
The War TARDIS Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:24:22pm |
I’m doing homework for a Politics in the Modern Middle East class. I just found that the per capita income of an Egyptian is not even 60% that of someone from Algeria. You know, the Algeria still recovering from years of Civil War.
| 333 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:24:27pm |
The Tweets expressing a lot of excitement for the self-organizing that Egyptians have managed so far.
I wonder if there will be any expressively anarchist factions active in Egypt after this Revolution is over.
| 334 |
Varek Raith Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:25:28pm |
re: #328 SanFranciscoZionist
I have to say, I have a bit of that myself.
I’m not saying I like it.
You’re honest about it and don’t try to blame in on Carter. Or Bush.
Or somesuch.
;)
| 335 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:25:30pm |
re: #331 Killgore Trout
That’s not surprising. Egypt’s government controlled media isn’t going to give him airtime.
Errr… I think when he said “mentioned” he was not just refering to government media but word on the street, twitter, facebook etc.
| 336 |
wrenchwench Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:25:57pm |
| 337 |
BishopX Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:26:02pm |
re: #331 Killgore Trout
Even AJ isn’t giving him much…a couple of brief interviews.
| 338 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:26:13pm |
re: #335 000G
Errr… I think when he said “mentioned” he was not just refering to government media but word on the street, twitter, facebook etc.
ah, ok.
| 339 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:26:36pm |
re: #337 BishopX
Even AJ isn’t giving him much…a couple of brief interviews.
They’re airing an interview with him now.
| 340 |
FemNaziBitch Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:26:36pm |
re: #310 SanFranciscoZionist
Yeah, the army came in yesterday (I think), and locked the place down, and word was that civilians were doing their best to defend it earlier.
I am reassured that the general instinct was to protect Egypt’s history.
There would be no tourism income without it.
| 341 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:26:47pm |
| 342 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:27:07pm |
Youth leaders want to go to Tunis: “We will pay for ourselves, we want to see how a real election happens.”
| 343 |
Talking Point Detective Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:27:47pm |
re: #325 Sergey Romanov
I don’t think SFZ overgeneralized at all. She said a “bunch of” and it does exist.
Sure. But I don’t think it is characteristic of lefties in general, or even of the lefties I’ve encountered who generally oppose Israel’s policies regarding Palestinians. I’d say it is a fair characterization (with your caveat of being willing to “back burner” some issues as opposed to being indifferent to them) of a “bunch of” lefties I know who are activists in opposing Israel’s policies regarding Palestinians - but even a minority of those.
Here’s my problem - the tone that I hear is not completely dissimilar to the “white guild” nonsense thrown out from the rightwing regarding racial issues.
I’m open to whether that tonality is a product of my thinking rather than what she says or means.
| 344 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:28:20pm |
LOL, doesn’t take much to ruffle some feathers.
| 345 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:28:35pm |
re: #318 Charles
Al Jazeera now confirms that Hosni Mubarak’s wife has left Egypt for London.
Suzanne was so nice when the Gaza Marchers got stuck in Egypt. I hope they remember to take her to lunch.
| 347 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:30:14pm |
re: #323 Talking Point Detective
I get where you’re coming from, and I can’t speak to your experience (being in San Francisco I’m sure is a factor), but I have had contact with many old-time and newbie lefties who, while they generally oppose the policies of the rightwing elements of the Israeli government, and fear the political influence of fundamentalist Jews on Israeli policy, and who are generally sympathetic to the suffering of Palestinians, in no way condone oppression or women, or think it is imperialist to worry about free speech.
What I’m saying here is that I think it’s important to not demonize people by virtue over-generalization. I feel the same way about over-generalizing about Tea Partiers. I guess it comes down to the definition of what you mean by “whole bunch.”
What I mean by whole bunch is ‘whole bunch’. It’s certainly not meant to apply to anyone who’s a lefty (and I don’t mean ‘liberal Democrat’ by ‘lefty’).
But I stand by my analysis of the basic problem.
| 348 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:31:07pm |
Al Jazeera interviewing the Muslim Brotherhood soon.
| 349 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:32:07pm |
re: #332 ProLifeLiberal
I’m doing homework for a Politics in the Modern Middle East class. I just found that the per capita income of an Egyptian is not even 60% that of someone from Algeria. You know, the Algeria still recovering from years of Civil War.
It’s a poor country, with little hope for the future, and a lot of young people who want something, anything to change.
No surprises that they’re acting out on that.
| 350 |
wrenchwench Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:32:32pm |
re: #343 Talking Point Detective
I’m open to whether that tonality is a product of my thinking rather than what she says or means.
That, plus she’s speaking from a lot of direct experience, and commenting on her observations. I find
Here’s my problem - the tone that I hear is not completely dissimilar to the “white guild” nonsense thrown out from the rightwing regarding racial issues.
way out of line., but like you said, it could be a product of your thinking.
| 351 |
Lateralis Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:33:18pm |
Zawahiri has been trying to create a power vacuum in Egypt since the mid 90’s. The MB was part of that equation then and I doubt they have changed their colors all that much since.
| 352 |
FemNaziBitch Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:33:19pm |
Hey all!
Massive headache from sinus infection.
Can I use this an excuse not to do laundry—as I have to bend down to retrieve laundry from the dryer? Putting my head below my heart makes it trob and I get blurred vision.
yes, I’m on meds.
How has the afternoon been going for you-all?
| 354 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:34:37pm |
Al Jazeera interview with MB now live
| 355 |
FemNaziBitch Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:35:09pm |
| 356 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:36:14pm |
The guy they are interviewing is Abdel Moneim Abul Fotou.
| 357 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:36:18pm |
re: #334 Varek Raith
You’re honest about it and don’t try to blame in on Carter. Or Bush.
Or somesuch.
;)
It’s just the facts of life. Right now, I seriously have to balance the fact that Mubarak is a gold-plated SOB against the fact that keeping him in place has kept the peace with Israel in place for decades.
I also have to balance that against the fact that while the Muslim Brotherhood may be more generous with the bread and social clubs—for a while—they won’t fix Egypt either. Plus, Israel, Gaza, God knows, etc.
I have to worry about U.S. security and interests, Israel’s more immediate security and interests, my general American distaste for dictators and desire to see democracy seed itself across the earth, and my general bleeding-heart concern for the happiness and well-being of the Egyptian people. It is about enough to make my head explode.
No easy answers. And I don’t get to pick the outcome.
| 358 |
Talking Point Detective Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:37:23pm |
re: #346 Buck
Condi?
Maybe this?
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]
Is there a statue of limitations on how long you will struggle to justify the policies of a president who pumped billions in support of an autocratic regime, fueled anger against the U.S. throughout the Muslim world, and launched an invasion of Iraq on fundamentally flawed analysis of intelligence without a solid understanding of the region?
Just let it go. You’ll feel better.
| 359 |
What, me worry? Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:37:28pm |
re: #312 Sergey Romanov
First of all, you tried to claim that Scientology is not a religion at all because it doesn’t have ancient texts and what not.
Second, I never used the word “cultism”. From the point of view of accordance of religion to reality all religions fail. It really is equally ridiculous to believe in virgin birth, parting of the red sea and body thetans. No amount of scholars spilling their ink will make it otherwise.
I don’t believe in the virgin birth or body thetans. The parting of the red sea was most likely the Sea of Reeds which is a smaller passage and could have been drained during a volcanic eruption in Greece.
| 361 |
FemNaziBitch Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:38:04pm |
Mom’s doing the crossword —needs a 5 letter word for Barber Chair Attachment.
362 |
Gus Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:38:16pm |
Charles, I can’t seem to be able to embed a video in the LGF pages any more. Maybe I’ll send you and email.
| 363 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:38:23pm |
| 364 |
lawhawk Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:38:33pm |
re: #351 Lateralis
Zawahiri has been trying a whole lot longer than just the mid 1990s. He was active in the Brotherhood dating back to the 1970s and rounded up in the aftermath of the Sadat assassination when Mubarak imprisoned and possibly tortured him. He was released several years later and Zawahiri went on to Saudi Arabia and then Pakistan.
| 365 |
Varek Raith Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:38:41pm |
| 366 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:38:50pm |
re: #359 marjoriemoon
Finding naturalistic explanations of Biblical miracles was once a favorite pastime of atheists ;-)
| 367 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:38:52pm |
re: #362 Gus 802
Charles, I can’t seem to be able to embed a video in the LGF pages any more. Maybe I’ll send you and email.
Which video were you trying to embed?
| 368 |
bratwurst Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:38:57pm |
re: #358 Talking Point Detective
Is there a statue of limitations on how long you will struggle to justify the policies of a president who pumped billions in support of an autocratic regime, fueled anger against the U.S. throughout the Muslim world, and launched an invasion of Iraq on fundamentally flawed analysis of intelligence without a solid understanding of the region?
In this individuals case, the answer is a resounding NO.
| 369 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:39:06pm |
Abdel Moneim Abul Fotou playing it very smart, vouching for democracy, interim government, blaming Mubarak for counter-revolution, etc. Basically repeating talking points of the revolution at large so far. Asks for freedom, not power. Asks for release of jailed MB members.
370 |
_RememberTonyC Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:39:08pm |
One of my favorite world figures has always been Anwar Sadat. His bravery and vision were always admirable. I hope whomever comes next in Egypt has a little Sadat in his DNA.
| 371 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:39:13pm |
| 372 |
Talking Point Detective Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:39:19pm |
re: #350 wrenchwench
That, plus she’s speaking from a lot of direct experience, and commenting on her observations. I find
way out of line., but like you said, it could be a product of your thinking.
could be. I do have a lot of direct experience also - which is why I was basically asking for clarification.
| 373 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:39:23pm |
re: #346 Buck
Condi?
Maybe this?
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]
Interesting. Now, tell me. What did we do to achieve those high goals? Did we hold Mubarak’s feet to the fire? Did we make aid conditional on free elections?
This is bullshit.
| 374 |
bratwurst Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:39:44pm |
re: #373 SanFranciscoZionist
Interesting. Now, tell me. What did we do to achieve those high goals? Did we hold Mubarak’s feet to the fire? Did we make aid conditional on free elections?
This is bullshit.
Tough but fair!
| 375 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:39:46pm |
re: #362 Gus 802
Your latest page has a video in it - no problem I can see.
| 376 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:39:52pm |
Dude from the MB claimed they want no part in the legislative or executive branches of government. lol
| 377 |
Gus Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:39:52pm |
re: #367 Charles
Which video were you trying to embed?
I just tried a Vimeo video. But it also failed with Youtube videos. I used to be able to embed Youtube vids but suddenly I can’t.
| 378 |
FemNaziBitch Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:39:55pm |
| 379 |
Gus Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:40:30pm |
re: #375 Charles
Your latest page has a video in it - no problem I can see.
I ended up just using the regular Vimeo link.
| 380 |
Varek Raith Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:40:35pm |
re: #378 ggt
Thanl You—she already figured it out.
80-years old. I still worry.
I didn’t even know what the hell a “strop” was…
| 381 |
albusteve Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:40:52pm |
re: #358 Talking Point Detective
Is there a statue of limitations on how long you will struggle to justify the policies of a president who pumped billions in support of an autocratic regime, fueled anger against the U.S. throughout the Muslim world, and launched an invasion of Iraq on fundamentally flawed analysis of intelligence without a solid understanding of the region?
Just let it go. You’ll feel better.
none of that would have happened without congressional support….presidents do not pump money into foreign countries nor fund wars
| 382 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:41:04pm |
re: #376 Killgore Trout
Dude from the MB claimed they want no part in the legislative or executive branches of government. lol
Dunno whether that was just a bad translation. To me it sounded like they did not seek to be constitutionally embedded in those institutions (like in Lebanon, for instance).
| 383 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:41:16pm |
re: #361 ggt
Mom’s doing the crossword —needs a 5 letter word for Barber Chair Attachment.
basin?
pedal?
| 384 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:41:51pm |
re: #376 Killgore Trout
Dude from the MB claimed they want no part in the legislative or executive branches of government. lol
Google his name (Abdel Moneim Abul Fotou), too. Dude is passed as a reformer. Did not research enough, though.
| 385 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:42:23pm |
Yep, I do have a problem with the stance that some religious supernaturalistic or pseudohistorical claims are acceptable while others are obvious bunk that make someone believing them a dupe and an idiot. Smart people do believe in weird things, regardless of religion.
| 386 |
FemNaziBitch Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:42:39pm |
re: #366 Sergey Romanov
Finding naturalistic explanations of Biblical miracles was once a favorite pastime of atheists ;-)
I love this stuff. Myth is based on some fact.
Remember when Troy was a myth? The terra cotta soldiers in Egypt?
It works for the future as well! Remember when Buck Rogers was the fantasy of science-fiction geeks.
I’ve learned not to discount such storys. You never know what can happen.
Hey, we even have a black man in the White House. Remember when that was NEVER going to happen?
| 387 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:42:49pm |
Jordan’s powerful Muslim opposition warns that Arabs will topple US-allied Mideast leaders
The leader of Jordan’s powerful Muslim Brotherhood warned Saturday that unrest in Egypt will spread across the Mideast and Arabs will topple leaders allied with the United States.
….
Saeed said Arabs have grown disgruntled with U.S. domination of their oil wealth, military occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan and its support for “totalitarian” leaders in the region.“The Americans and (President Barack) Obama must be losing sleep over the popular revolt in Egypt,” he said. “Now, Obama must understand that the people have woken up and are ready to unseat the tyrant leaders who remained in power because of U.S. backing.”
| 388 |
wrenchwench Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:43:07pm |
re: #372 Talking Point Detective
could be. I do have a lot of direct experience also - which is why I was basically asking for clarification.
I’m sure you do, but you have not related much of your experience here, while she has. So I’m familiar with what she’s saying.
| 389 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:43:11pm |
re: #379 Gus 802
I ended up just using the regular Vimeo link.
Oh - it’s probably because of the iframe code that YouTube and Vimeo have started using instead of the usual EMBED tags.
I think both of those sites have an option to use the EMBED tags instead, if you hunt for it a little bit.
| 390 |
The War TARDIS Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:43:15pm |
I wonder if the people who vandalized the Museum earlier (who were said to be people in jail or something?) were Islamist nutballs.
391 |
Buck Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:43:26pm |
re: #358 Talking Point Detective
Is there a statue of limitations on how long you will struggle to justify the policies of a president who pumped billions in support of an autocratic regime, fueled anger against the U.S. throughout the Muslim world, and launched an invasion of Iraq on fundamentally flawed analysis of intelligence without a solid understanding of the region?
Just let it go. You’ll feel better.
That is your opinion. Mine is completely different. The deal with Egypt started with Carter, and I don’t think there was an opportunity for any of the presidents after that to change the deal afterwards. I have never accepted that the muslim world only began their angry kabuki theater during the Bush administration. Obviously I also don’t agree with the way you characterize the invasion of Iraq.
| 392 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:43:47pm |
re: #366 Sergey Romanov
Finding naturalistic explanations of Biblical miracles was once a favorite pastime of atheists ;-)
I once got into quite a bit of…not trouble, but leery looks…at rabbinic school (no, I didn’t graduate, just took a year of classes), when I discussed what seemed obvious to me, that the ‘Deborah’ episode of the Book of Judges clearly describes a flash flood.
Oddly, this was a very scientifically inclined, documentary hypothesis-believin’ program—they just got confused every time I tried to discuss Torah in the context of actual bronze-age experience.
| 393 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:44:20pm |
re: #390 ProLifeLiberal
I wonder if the people who vandalized the Museum earlier (who were said to be people in jail or something?) were Islamist nutballs.
No reason to think so—it’s just a modern version of grave robbing.
| 394 |
Gus Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:44:39pm |
re: #389 Charles
Oh - it’s probably because of the iframe code that YouTube and Vimeo have started using instead of the usual EMBED tags.
I think both of those sites have an option to use the EMBED tags instead, if you hunt for it a little bit.
Ah. OK, thanks. Yeah, Youtube stopped working just recently. Iframe… I’ll keep that in mind and look for an option next time. Just tested a CNN video embed and that still works.
Thanks.
| 395 |
Talking Point Detective Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:45:27pm |
re: #347 SanFranciscoZionist
What I mean by whole bunch is ‘whole bunch’. It’s certainly not meant to apply to anyone who’s a lefty (and I don’t mean ‘liberal Democrat’ by ‘lefty’).
But I stand by my analysis of the basic problem.
I really am not trying to be an irritant - but I care about this issue a lot. What do you mean by “the basic problem?”
Do you mean that the basic difficulty with the “left,” as a whole, vis-à-vis the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is an anti- American/anti-Israel bias that blinds lefties to the mysogeny and repressive nature of fundamentalist Islam?
| 396 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:45:46pm |
re: #386 ggt
The story of Troy is a complex one and in any case doesn’t prove the existence of Greek gods. Of course, some myths originated from real events. That’s not the point. I just don’t accept the thesis that religious people (or some religious people) are “idiots” and “dupes” for believing in things I find weird.
| 397 |
Varek Raith Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:45:56pm |
re: #393 Decatur Deb
No reason to think so—it’s just a modern version of grave robbing.
Was this the perp?
Image: bender-pharaoh.gif
/
| 398 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:46:09pm |
re: #386 ggt
Hey, we even have a black man in the White House. Remember when that was NEVER going to happen?
I’ve mentioned this before, but I recall in the spring of 2007, sitting in a friend’s car at the Fruitvale BART Station, us both laughing at the mere idea that either a woman or a black man was going to get the Democratic nomination this go-around.
| 399 |
What, me worry? Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:46:12pm |
re: #385 Sergey Romanov
Yep, I do have a problem with the stance that some religious supernaturalistic or pseudohistorical claims are acceptable while others are obvious bunk that make someone believing them a dupe and an idiot. Smart people do believe in weird things, regardless of religion.
I would argue smart people don’t believe in an intergalactic coup d’etat millions of years ago in which the warrior Xenu entombed frozen souls in Earthly volcanos only to be released into neanderthal men. Um… no.
OTOH, much of the Torah has been proven through biblical archeology as to the men and women who actually lived in Israel 1000s of years ago.
| 400 |
FemNaziBitch Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:46:14pm |
re: #358 Talking Point Detective
Is there a statue of limitations on how long you will struggle to justify the policies of a president who pumped billions in support of an autocratic regime, fueled anger against the U.S. throughout the Muslim world, and launched an invasion of Iraq on fundamentally flawed analysis of intelligence without a solid understanding of the region?
Just let it go. You’ll feel better.
It’s easy to blame an individual POTUS, but remember, in this country, he doesn’t have all that much power.
I’d like to blame Clinton for the lack of intelligence that lead to 9/11, but I can’t.
We The People —are responsible.
| 401 |
Talking Point Detective Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:46:14pm |
re: #381 albusteve
none of that would have happened without congressional support…presidents do not pump money into foreign countries nor fund wars
True. But that doesn’t make it any better.
| 402 |
The War TARDIS Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:46:18pm |
re: #393 Decatur Deb
I’m remembering the Bamyan Buddhas, so the thought of fanatics was one of the first things to come to mind.
| 403 |
Gus Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:47:11pm |
re: #389 Charles
Oh - it’s probably because of the iframe code that YouTube and Vimeo have started using instead of the usual EMBED tags.
I think both of those sites have an option to use the EMBED tags instead, if you hunt for it a little bit.
Found the option on Youtube. It’s a check box which reads:
[ ] Use old embed code [?]
Checking that does the trick on Youtube. Guess I should have noticed that all along.
404 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:47:38pm |
re: #402 ProLifeLiberal
Crime against future generations, that.
| 405 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:48:04pm |
re: #390 ProLifeLiberal
I wonder if the people who vandalized the Museum earlier (who were said to be people in jail or something?) were Islamist nutballs.
They could be—I know that the reverence for Egypt’s pagan past really chaps the hide of some of the more hard-core—but my money would be on plain old looters, looking for something to sell, or plain old rioters, looking to smash something.
No way to tell, until the cops get around to talking to them, IF Egyptian cops ever actually talk to people.
| 406 |
FemNaziBitch Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:48:17pm |
re: #383 SanFranciscoZionist
basin?
pedal?
I said pedal, but was wrong.
Crosswords have their own language.
| 407 |
Talking Point Detective Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:48:24pm |
re: #395 Talking Point Detective
Sorry - I think that came off wrong (although I was trying to be careful).
Or, do you mean that is the basic problem with the aforementioned “bunch?”
| 408 |
albusteve Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:48:53pm |
re: #401 Talking Point Detective
True. But that doesn’t make it any better.
then why do you characterize it differently?…you sound like a partisan hack, you don’t want to do that do you?….you demand clarity from others, so walk the walk
| 409 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:49:11pm |
re: #397 Varek Raith
Was this the perp?
Image: bender-pharaoh.gif
/
Those were probably decent display-quality mummies. Mummies in general are dirt common. One of my professors tried to import 1500 “ordinary’ ones to KY for epidemiological study, but the department couldn’t afford the cold storage. Just about everything mummified in that climate, and they used to burn them for locomotive fuel.
| 410 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:49:28pm |
re: #399 marjoriemoon
I would argue smart people don’t believe in an intergalactic coup d’etat millions of years ago in which the warrior Xenu entombed frozen souls in Earthly volcanos only to be released into neanderthal men. Um… no.
OTOH, much of the Torah has been proven through biblical archeology as to the men and women who actually lived in Israel 1000s of years ago.
What miracle claims in Tanakh have been proven? None. Just like discovery of Troy doesn’t “prove” Iliad, archeology doesn’t “prove” Torah/Tanakh. And miracle claims in Tanakh certainly outnumber the number of weird claims by Scientology - and by the way, you learn about those claims in OT3, quite high up the ladder.
411 |
Shiplord Kirel Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:49:47pm |
Egypt has almost come full circle in the last 60 years.
Mubarak is the fourth president of Egypt. By way of Sadat, he is the direct lineal successor to Muhammed Naguib and Gamal Abdel Nasser, future presidents who led the Revolution of 1952 and overthrew the amazingly corrupt and inept regime of King Farouk. As a young air force officer, Mubarak himself was a minor participant in that revolution.
Today’s revolution is aimed at the overthrow of a corrupt regime that Mubarak has turned into a monarchy in all but name.
| 412 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:51:14pm |
re: #394 Gus 802
Ah. OK, thanks. Yeah, Youtube stopped working just recently. Iframe… I’ll keep that in mind and look for an option next time. Just tested a CNN video embed and that still works.
Thanks.
YouTube still has the option “Use old embed code” on the embed page.
| 413 |
Winny Spencer Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:51:41pm |
re: #396 Sergey Romanov
The story of Troy is a complex one and in any case doesn’t prove the existence of Greek gods. Of course, some myths originated from real events. That’s not the point. I just don’t accept the thesis that religious people (or some religious people) are “idiots” and “dupes” for believing in things I find weird.
Some might be more brainwashed than others though, which I would claim is the case with many CoS-members.
From your comments I infer that you believe all religious people to be dupes.
| 414 |
Gus Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:51:49pm |
re: #412 000G
YouTube still has the option “Use old embed code” on the embed page.
Just found that, thanks.
| 415 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:51:58pm |
| 416 |
The War TARDIS Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:52:03pm |
re: #405 SanFranciscoZionist
I think I’m more cynical than you on this one. I do believe that the nutballs were doing a tiny scale repeat of what happened in Afghanistan.
| 417 |
Talking Point Detective Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:52:32pm |
re: #400 ggt
It’s easy to blame an individual POTUS, but remember, in this country, he doesn’t have all that much power.
I’d like to blame Clinton for the lack of intelligence that lead to 9/11, but I can’t.
We The People —are responsible.
It’s also easy to give someone a free pass for rallying public support for an invasion based on faulty intelligence, for empowering cronies to develop a disaster of a post-invasion strategy, for systematically discounting the opinions of experts who questioned the validity of the rationale for the invasion and who warned about the complex nature of the region.
Indeed - we the people are responsible. And our leaders should be held accountable for their leadership errors.
418 |
Fozzie Bear Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:52:56pm |
I think the M.B. coming to power is a valid concern, but I find it a little comforting that the people of Egypt don’t seem to be terribly willing to take much more repressive treatment.
I think if the M.B. did come to power, they might find Egypt hard to maintain control of, given the climate of frustration with government there.
I think there is reason to worry, but there is also reason to have hope that Egypt might be headed in a more positive direction. Things are changing so fast it’s impossible to tell yet anyway.
| 419 |
Winny Spencer Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:53:03pm |
re: #410 Sergey Romanov
What miracle claims in Tanakh have been proven? None. Just like discovery of Troy doesn’t “prove” Iliad, archeology doesn’t “prove” Torah/Tanakh. And miracle claims in Tanakh certainly outnumber the number of weird claims by Scientology - and by the way, you learn about those claims in OT3, quite high up the ladder.
Well, exactly. You only learn about Xenu when you are ready (properly brainwashed and with many thousands less in your bank account).
| 420 |
FemNaziBitch Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:53:23pm |
re: #396 Sergey Romanov
The story of Troy is a complex one and in any case doesn’t prove the existence of Greek gods. Of course, some myths originated from real events.
My point is that we wouldn’t know of certain history if it wasn’t written in religious texts. Often they are the only writings we have to give us a clue. The fact that people have “believed” for so long is the reason we still have the texts to reference.
I just don’t accept the thesis that religious people (or some religious people) are “idiots” and “dupes” for believing in things I find weird.
Well, there is weird and there is weird. :)
421 |
avanti Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:53:38pm |
Hot Air just put up a thread about the global warming hoax./ Some crap about some ice melt not being as fast as expected in some area’s and than, the real “proof”. It seems polls show the number of people in Europe that believe the earth is warming has declined in the last couple of years. Forget for a moment the actual temperature record, it’s time to ignore the science and listen to the regular folk and it’s all good./
I just checked, and it’s cold outside, so they must be right./
| 422 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:53:57pm |
Facebook Photo Album of Women in the Revolution:
| 423 |
Talking Point Detective Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:55:26pm |
re: #408 albusteve
then why do you characterize it differently?…you sound like a partisan hack, you don’t want to do that do you?…you demand clarity from others, so walk the walk
Sure. Many Congresscritters - Democrats among them, were a big part of problem. You think I have any difficulty at all in doing that?
Nope. Not a bit.
So what did I characterize differently? I criticized Bush’s policies as being counterproductive.
| 424 |
The War TARDIS Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:55:51pm |
re: #422 000G
More important than looks is a women’s personality. Those women in the protest is what I like. Sarah Palin on the other hand is completely unattractive to me.
| 425 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:56:11pm |
re: #419 Winny Spencer
Well, exactly. You only learn about Xenu when you are ready (properly brainwashed and with many thousands less in your bank account).
There is no such thing as “brainwashing”.
| 427 |
FemNaziBitch Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:57:27pm |
re: #425 000G
There is no such thing as “brainwashing”.
No, but one can have one’s mouth washed with soap!
| 428 |
wrenchwench Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:57:37pm |
re: #396 Sergey Romanov
The story of Troy is a complex one and in any case doesn’t prove the existence of Greek gods.
I’ve been to Troy. They have a wooden horse by the gate and everything!
//I believe!!1!
| 429 |
Fozzie Bear Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:58:14pm |
re: #422 000G
Facebook Photo Album of Women in the Revolution:
[Link: www.facebook.com…]
“Well behaved women rarely make history”
- Laurel Thatcher Ulrich
It heartens me to see that women are playing a strong role in this. Lets hope that in whatever follows, their rights are as respected as their contribution to freeing themselves.
| 430 |
albusteve Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:58:26pm |
re: #423 Talking Point Detective
Sure. Many Congresscritters - Democrats among them, were a big part of problem. You think I have any difficulty at all in doing that?
Nope. Not a bit.
So what did I characterize differently? I criticized Bush’s policies as being counterproductive.
go ahead, but don’t be disingenuous about it…a presidents policies do not necessarily reflect congressional votes…you are either intentional or ill informed
| 431 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:59:01pm |
re: #399 marjoriemoon
I would argue smart people don’t believe in an intergalactic coup d’etat millions of years ago in which the warrior Xenu entombed frozen souls in Earthly volcanos only to be released into neanderthal men. Um… no.
To mirror you (not that I agree with the statement below):
I would argue smart people don’t believe in talking burning bushes, talking donkeys, God-caused plagues of frogs and whatnot, angels killing babies, men resurrected from bones, parting of seas, stopping of the Sun, God-caused destruction of cities, God-caused global flood and surrounding circumstances, like animals coming to an ark’s owner, sticks changing into snakes, God-caused manna from heaven, stones falling from heaven on the enemies, people surviving swallowing by fishes, God-sent bears mauling kids, hair causing unhuman strength… Um… no.
| 432 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 1:59:22pm |
| 433 |
FemNaziBitch Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:00:09pm |
gotta go, folks,
Have a great afternoon/evening!
| 434 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:00:13pm |
re: #395 Talking Point Detective
I really am not trying to be an irritant - but I care about this issue a lot. What do you mean by “the basic problem?”
Do you mean that the basic difficulty with the “left,” as a whole, vis-à-vis the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is an anti- American/anti-Israel bias that blinds lefties to the mysogeny and repressive nature of fundamentalist Islam?
I don’t know about the ‘left’ as whole. That’s a very big category.
I will say that there is a very high degree of misinformation and bias against Israel that has spread through much of the American and European ‘left’. I will also say that there is an increasing resistance in the same group to examining the increasing power of fundamentalist Islam, or criticizing Islamic fundamentalism, and that I have seen this resistance grow among people I know and people I read, in the years since I was in college—the same years that Hamas rose to prominence, and the face of Palestinian radicalism became increasingly fundamentalist. I think this is all connected. It also has roots in the response of left-leaning Americans to our current set of foreign adventures—some rational, some less so—and I think there is also an element of backlash to the trashing of Muslim culture by parties we could all name.
Now, none of this should be taken as a sweeping indictment of any particular person or group. (OK, ANSWER, Sabeel, al-Awda, even goofy old Code Pink, I AM looking at you). There’s a whole doctoral thesis in here, one I will probably never write. It is certainly not an attack on the average American progressive, regardless of their opinion about Israeli and the Palestinians, although I do believe that most such people are not getting all the information they need to form informed opinions, and ARE being told flat-out lies by many sources.
| 435 |
Fozzie Bear Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:00:20pm |
re: #432 000G
“Chaos” doesn’t describe what we are seeing. I think “uprising” (or “revolution”) more aptly captures what we are seeing.
| 436 |
Varek Raith Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:00:27pm |
re: #430 albusteve
go ahead, but don’t be disingenuous about it…a presidents policies do not necessarily reflect congressional votes…you are either intentional or ill informed
How ya doing?
| 437 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:00:58pm |
| 438 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:01:08pm |
re: #419 Winny Spencer
Well, exactly. You only learn about Xenu when you are ready (properly brainwashed and with many thousands less in your bank account).
That is a separate issue from what we’re discussing.
| 439 |
wrenchwench Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:01:17pm |
re: #429 Fozzie Bear
“Well behaved women rarely make history”
- Laurel Thatcher UlrichIt heartens me to see that women are playing a strong role in this. Lets hope that in whatever follows, their rights are as respected as their contribution to freeing themselves.
Thanks for putting a name to the quotation. I see it on bumperstickers all the time without attribution.
440 |
sagehen Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:01:24pm |
re: #312 Sergey Romanov
First of all, you tried to claim that Scientology is not a religion at all because it doesn’t have ancient texts and what not.
Second, I never used the word “cultism”. From the point of view of accordance of religion to reality all religions fail. It really is equally ridiculous to believe in virgin birth, parting of the red sea and body thetans. No amount of scholars spilling their ink will make it otherwise.
Parting the Red Sea does not violate the laws of physics
| 441 |
albusteve Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:01:32pm |
| 442 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:02:31pm |
re: #402 ProLifeLiberal
I’m remembering the Bamyan Buddhas, so the thought of fanatics was one of the first things to come to mind.
I think everyone here recalls that as well, but you have to remember that in general, Egyptians, religious or not, are very proud of their astonishing history. And also that generations of Egyptians made good money robbing tombs for thousands of years.
;)
I’m just glad there was so little damage.
| 443 |
Fozzie Bear Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:03:52pm |
re: #439 wrenchwench
Thanks for putting a name to the quotation. I see it on bumperstickers all the time without attribution.
It’s one of my favorite quotes. My wife has that phrase on a marble plaque on the wall in the living room. It also aptly describes what kind of women I find most attractive.
Mousy and subservient never did it for me, and it won’t do for Egypt if they are to have a brighter future. You can tell a lot about a culture by how women are treated.
| 444 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:04:00pm |
re: #416 ProLifeLiberal
I think I’m more cynical than you on this one. I do believe that the nutballs were doing a tiny scale repeat of what happened in Afghanistan.
It’s totally possible. I don’t know enough about the situation in Egypt to really venture more than a guess.
| 445 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:04:19pm |
re: #413 Winny Spencer
What an interesting psychological exercise, I write:
I just don’t accept the thesis that religious people (or some religious people) are “idiots” and “dupes” for believing in things I find weird.
And someone writes in reply:
From your comments I infer that you believe all religious people to be dupes.
Makes one wonder about all kinds of things, like learning to read before writing and such.
| 446 |
Alexzander Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:04:48pm |
Interesting example of self-policing on AJ live a second ago.
| 447 |
Talking Point Detective Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:05:08pm |
re: #430 albusteve
go ahead, but don’t be disingenuous about it…a presidents policies do not necessarily reflect congressional votes…you are either intentional or ill informed
Once again, the fact that many in the Congress supported Bush’s policies takes nothing away from: (1) his ownership of the policies as it was his administration that developed them and controlled the apparatus of policy development, (2) his leadership in advocating for policies based on faulty intelligence improperly vetted, (3) his oversight of a process where contradictory evidence was systematically undermined (he and his administration’s spokespeople were on record, tons of times, saying that no contradictory evidence existed), (4) his empowerment of unqualified cronies to position of power in the post-invasion process - with disastrous results.
If you have a problem facing up to that, that’s your problem - but I have no idea why you would object to anyone saying that Bush’s failures shouldn’t be swept under the rug by preposterously claiming that the demonstrations in Egypt are some sort of outcome of his policies.
| 448 |
Varek Raith Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:05:15pm |
| 449 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:05:26pm |
re: #422 000G
Facebook Photo Album of Women in the Revolution:
[Link: www.facebook.com…]
Oh, those are beautiful.
| 450 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:05:35pm |
| 451 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:05:46pm |
| 452 |
What, me worry? Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:06:35pm |
re: #431 Sergey Romanov
To mirror you (not that I agree with the statement below):
There are explanations to some of that. I am not a Torah scholar, but the Torah is read on many levels, not just the physical, but the metaphysical and translation into English doesn’t always describe those meanings.
But again, if you’re an atheist and deny the existence of God, then I can’t really argue seeing all religions as cults which is a word you didn’t really use, but not sure how else you would describe your belief. I can’t prove God if that’s what you’re asking. I only have faith She exists. We do have proof that people in the bible actually lived. But if you’re looking for proof of God, I can’t help.
I have the utmost respect for established religions outside my own. Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, etc. Yet I see the difference between that and cults like Scientology, Heaven’s Gate, Branch Davidians, etc.
| 453 |
albusteve Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:08:12pm |
re: #447 Talking Point Detective
Once again, the fact that many in the Congress supported Bush’s policies takes nothing away from: (1) his ownership of the policies as it was his administration that developed them and controlled the apparatus of policy development, (2) his leadership in advocating for policies based on faulty intelligence improperly vetted, (3) his oversight of a process where contradictory evidence was systematically undermined (he and his administration’s spokespeople were on record, tons of times, saying that no contradictory evidence existed), (4) his empowerment of unqualified cronies to position of power in the post-invasion process - with disastrous results.
If you have a problem facing up to that, that’s your problem - but I have no idea why you would object to anyone saying that Bush’s failures shouldn’t be swept under the rug by preposterously claiming that the demonstrations in Egypt are some sort of outcome of his policies.
you are wasting precious heartbeats….argue with someone else who gives a shit while you backpedal…if you don’t get the point so be it
| 454 |
Alexzander Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:08:39pm |
re: #450 000G
?
People creating check-points in their own communities, to make sure that nobody attempts to loot or cause damage in their areas. Spontaneous community reaction to the non-existance of police or army presence in most residential areas.
| 455 |
lawhawk Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:08:48pm |
re: #449 SanFranciscoZionist
This one was posted yesterday (I think by Killgore), but it certainly is among the most powerful of the images:
facebook.com!/photo.php?fbid=493693567675&set=a.493689677675.268523.586357675
| 456 |
sagehen Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:09:00pm |
re: #390 ProLifeLiberal
I wonder if the people who vandalized the Museum earlier (who were said to be people in jail or something?) were Islamist nutballs.
I’m betting they’re just thieves.
| 457 |
albusteve Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:09:32pm |
re: #448 Varek Raith
Pretty good.
I hear you’re closer to a prosthesis?
one more surgery to fix me up before that happens…but it’s still a ways away
but as Charlie would say, one step at a time, comrade
| 458 |
Alexzander Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:09:47pm |
re: #455 lawhawk
This one was posted yesterday (I think by Killgore), but it certainly is among the most powerful of the images:
[Link: www.facebook.com…]
is there a way to see that without facebook?
| 459 |
Fozzie Bear Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:10:14pm |
re: #455 lawhawk
This one was posted yesterday (I think by Killgore), but it certainly is among the most powerful of the images:
[Link: www.facebook.com…]
She’s just adorable.
| 460 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:10:28pm |
| 461 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:10:58pm |
re: #452 marjoriemoon
…snip
I have the utmost respect for established religions outside my own. Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, etc. Yet I see the difference between that and cults like Scientology, Heaven’s Gate, Branch Davidians, etc.
It helps to mentally place yourself in 1st century Rome. The guy in the forum couldn’t tell which of the new or imported cults— Mithraism, Isis, or Peter’s bunch—had a future.
| 462 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:11:08pm |
re: #455 lawhawk
This one was posted yesterday (I think by Killgore), but it certainly is among the most powerful of the images:
[Link: www.facebook.com…]
Original source: photoblog.msnbc.msn.com
| 463 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:12:30pm |
| 464 |
_RememberTonyC Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:13:12pm |
re: #434 SanFranciscoZionist
Very good post. This is a principled “liberal” position that is much different from a naive or even evil “leftist” position. I have always recognized the difference between principled liberals and leftists.
| 465 |
Fozzie Bear Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:14:01pm |
re: #463 SanFranciscoZionist
He looks so glum.
The impression I get is something like “Mom! I’m working here! Sheesh.”
| 466 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:15:36pm |
re: #452 marjoriemoon
There are explanations to some of that.
Again, those are miracle claims. They don’t need an explanation beyond “it’s a miracle”. It’s normal for religion. It’s normal for someone who accepts a religion to believe in its claims. Just as is the case with scn, the difference being that most scientologists are far from being OT3, so most don’t even know about the Xenu story, knowing only about thetans and e-meters, and quite a lot of people feeling that it “works” for them. So, returning to the initial point, I don’t think someone is a “dupe” or an “idiot” for merely joining scn. (Which doesn’t mean I don’t support measures against CoS.)
But again, if you’re an atheist and deny the existence of God, then I can’t really argue seeing all religions as cults which is a word you didn’t really use, but not sure how else you would describe your belief. I can’t prove God if that’s what you’re asking. I only have faith She exists. We do have proof that people in the bible actually lived. But if you’re looking for proof of God, I can’t help.I have the utmost respect for established religions outside my own. Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, etc. Yet I see the difference between that and cults like Scientology, Heaven’s Gate, Branch Davidians, etc.
Of course there is a difference (though not a difference in truth-claims), but there is a difference between Scientology on the one hand and HG and BD on the other.
| 467 |
Winny Spencer Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:15:36pm |
re: #445 Sergey Romanov
What an interesting psychological exercise, I write:
And someone writes in reply:
Makes one wonder about all kinds of things, like learning to read before writing and such.
I think that was really uncalled for, not to mention hurtful. :(
| 468 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:16:32pm |
re: #465 Fozzie Bear
The impression I get is something like “Mom! I’m working here! Sheesh.”
I’m getting something more like “This is going to go viral, and Khalid is going to blow it up to poster size and post it at the station. I can tell.”
| 469 |
Talking Point Detective Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:17:39pm |
re: #434 SanFranciscoZionist
I don’t know about the ‘left’ as whole. That’s a very big category.
I will say that there is a very high degree of misinformation and bias against Israel that has spread through much of the American and European ‘left’. I will also say that there is an increasing resistance in the same group to examining the increasing power of fundamentalist Islam, or criticizing Islamic fundamentalism, and that I have seen this resistance grow among people I know and people I read, in the years since I was in college—the same years that Hamas rose to prominence, and the face of Palestinian radicalism became increasingly fundamentalist. I think this is all connected. It also has roots in the response of left-leaning Americans to our current set of foreign adventures—some rational, some less so—and I think there is also an element of backlash to the trashing of Muslim culture by parties we could all name.
Now, none of this should be taken as a sweeping indictment of any particular person or group. (OK, ANSWER, Sabeel, al-Awda, even goofy old Code Pink, I AM looking at you). There’s a whole doctoral thesis in here, one I will probably never write. It is certainly not an attack on the average American progressive, regardless of their opinion about Israeli and the Palestinians, although I do believe that most such people are not getting all the information they need to form informed opinions, and ARE being told flat-out lies by many sources.
Ok. Thanks.
I’ve seen enough of what you’ve written to know that you’re no Islamophobe, but I am struck by the parallels between what you’re saying and criticism of “the left” as “appeasers” by the Islamophobic right. It’s particularly interesting because this very site used to be such a cesspool of such rhetoric.
I would not discount what you’re saying as a real phenomenon. There are lefties who reflexively side against Israel because of its alliance with the U.S., and who do not fully acknowledge the mysogeny of Islamic fundamentalism (let alone, the anti-semticism that characterizes much of the Arab world).
Certainly, I am in no position to comment on your direct experience, and I think that these are tough issues to get a solid handle on - but I will say that I my sense of the problem, as you describe it, is that it isn’t very widespread. In my experience, most of the lefties I know who actively oppose Isreali policies on Palestinian issues are pretty closely aligned to, and have a lot of contact with the Israeli left and with pro-dialog Palestinians.
| 470 |
Talking Point Detective Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:18:19pm |
re: #453 albusteve
you are wasting precious heartbeats…argue with someone else who gives a shit while you backpedal…if you don’t get the point so be it
Heh!
Thanks for reading and responding. I can always count on you to do so.
| 471 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:18:31pm |
re: #440 sagehen
Parting the Red Sea does not violate the laws of physics
Bears mauling kids or “opening” earth also doesn’t, I just don’t get your point. Those are still miracle claims.
| 473 |
sagehen Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:21:38pm |
re: #410 Sergey Romanov
What miracle claims in Tanakh have been proven? None. Just like discovery of Troy doesn’t “prove” Iliad, archeology doesn’t “prove” Torah/Tanakh. And miracle claims in Tanakh certainly outnumber the number of weird claims by Scientology - and by the way, you learn about those claims in OT3, quite high up the ladder.
If I had to write about WWII, in a form only as long as what someone can memorize to recite around the campfire without his audience falling asleep, I’m only supposed to present one point of view, and the literary convention of the piece requires the framing must be around one heroic quotable person… I might very well call it “The Book of Winston.”
Using ‘miracle’ in the vernacular sense rather than theological… Dunkirk qualifies. Or the non-damage to Buckingham Palace, or St Paul’s. Or the in-time arrival of sufficient allies.
What “miracle” claims in the torah can’t be explained as poetic license? “The sun stood still in the sky…” (sure feels like it when you’re in the middle of the heaviest fighting anyone of your generation ever heard of), “The river turned to blood…” (red tide. don’t eat the shellfish).
| 474 |
albusteve Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:21:45pm |
re: #470 Talking Point Detective
Heh!
Thanks for reading and responding. I can always count on you to do so.
no, you can’t
| 476 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:22:42pm |
re: #467 Winny Spencer
I think that was really uncalled for, not to mention hurtful. :(
Re-read your #413 and we’ll talk about “uncalled for” and “hurtful”.
| 477 |
Talking Point Detective Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:23:19pm |
| 478 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:23:55pm |
re: #473 sagehen
So it is with Xenu.
| 479 |
Varek Raith Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:24:57pm |
| 480 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:25:10pm |
Glenn Beck Sponsored By Gold Merchant Promoting 9-11 Truther’s Anti-Fed Book
Griffin, in addition to spinning conspiracy theories about the Fed, is also a 9-11 truther and has written extensively about the U.S. government’s “facilitation” of the attacks. In April 2008, Griffin appeared on the radio program of conspiracist Alex Jones and claimed that he predicted just days after 9-11 that “the FBI and the intelligence agencies of the federal government had advance knowledge of this attack but did nothing to stop it,” and that he was proven right. He also is — or, at least, was — a member of the ultra-right wing John Birch Society. He wrote a 1970 pamphlet entitled “This is the John Birch Society: An Invitation to Join,” and a 1975 book entitled The Life and Words of Robert Welch: Founder of the John Birch Society.
| 481 |
ryannon Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:25:18pm |
re: #240 Summer
Scientology is a total scam for dupes and idiots and run by completely self-deluded criminals. I pity Scientologists in the same way that I pity Branch Davidian or Heaven’s Gate cult members. Most of them are prisoners and don’t even know it and are enslaved by an extremist and stupid fantasy which never had an anchor in any reality whatsoever.
Repressive!
482 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:26:48pm |
re: #479 Varek Raith
XENU IS AFTER YOUR SOUL!
RUN WHILE YOU STILL CAN!
I sold my soul for rock n roll. Sorry.;)
| 484 |
BishopX Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:28:23pm |
From the NYTimes lede blog:
Peter Bouckaert of Human Rights Watch writes, “Two looters were just caught in the Muharram Beyh neighborhood of Alexandria who had police ID cards and were members of an undercover plainclothes force.”
Mr. Bouckaert added:
The most touching moment today was when one of the youth leaders in Alexandria asked us to help him send an observer team to elections in Tunis: “We will pay for ourselves, but we want to see how a real election happens.”
The US really should be supporting civil society, pro-democracy groups in Eygpt right now, if they weren’t already.
| 485 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:28:24pm |
My icon has disappeared from my comment nic-bars. Is that just local, at this end?
| 487 |
Shiplord Kirel Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:28:52pm |
Gee, if Gawd would call up a pack of bears to devour some ill-mannered children, just imagine what he would do to false prophets, liars, and adulterers.
Yet, we do not see televangelists, creationists, and rightwing politicians being routinely attacked by bears, or any other vicious predators outside the media.
Draw the obvious conclusion.
| 488 |
BishopX Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:29:54pm |
re: #487 Shiplord Kirel
The introduction of firearms has severely depleted gods ability to punish the wicked?
///
| 489 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:31:17pm |
re: #486 BishopX
I can see you loud and clear.
Thanks. Looks like the nose-art avatar is missing from this whole thread and the “pages” comments too.
| 490 |
Shiplord Kirel Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:31:52pm |
re: #488 BishopX
The introduction of firearms has severely depleted gods ability to punish the wicked?
///
Ah, a Second Amendment remedy for divine retribution.
Btw, I better apologize for not capitalizing “He” in my first post, lest I be devoured by bears or something worse.
| 491 |
sagehen Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:32:17pm |
re: #471 Sergey Romanov
Bears mauling kids or “opening” earth also doesn’t, I just don’t get your point. Those are still miracle claims.
oh, please. Bears maul kids anyplace there’s both bears and kids.
| 492 |
Fozzie Bear Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:32:30pm |
re: #490 Shiplord Kirel
Ah, a Second Amendment remedy for divine retribution.
Btw, I better apologize for not capitalizing “He” in my first post, lest I be devoured by bears or something worse.
You have to capitalize the whole word, or the LORD will smite you.
| 493 |
Fozzie Bear Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:33:32pm |
re: #492 Fozzie Bear
(this has always been the surest way to spot a looney fundamentalist in print form, imo.)
| 494 |
ryannon Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:34:38pm |
re: #271 marjoriemoon
While I’ve been seething over the idea of democratic peaceful Muslim Brotherhood, I’m not sure how we got into the discussion of Scientology, but it’s not a religion in any way, shape or form and to compare it to Christianity is peculiar.
Where are its ancient texts? Where is the discussion of God?
Xenu? Body thetans? Really, I should have started my own cult 20 years ago. I could have done better than this.
That’s what some people said about Picasso.
/
| 495 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:35:03pm |
re: #493 Fozzie Bear
(this has always been the surest way to spot a looney fundamentalist in print form, imo.)
That’s actually pretty commonplace.
| 496 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:35:13pm |
re: #491 sagehen
oh, please. Bears maul kids anyplace there’s both bears and kids.
You’re missing the point so badly there’s no reason to continue, but as a last comment: the story is that the bears appeared and mauled the kids because Elisha cursed them. That is a direct miracle claim. This is no less ridiculous than body thetans and e-meters. Your comment above is neither here nor there. Bye.
| 497 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:35:43pm |
re: #469 Talking Point Detective
Ok. Thanks.
I’ve seen enough of what you’ve written to know that you’re no Islamophobe, but I am struck by the parallels between what you’re saying and criticism of “the left” as “appeasers” by the Islamophobic right. It’s particularly interesting because this very site used to be such a cesspool of such rhetoric.
Well, first, the folks who used to be here considered ‘the left’ to start somewhere around Mitt Romney, and to be an essentially monolithic group. I myself, according to those same folks at their new address, am a tranzi progressive fascist. (Boring bleeding-heart liberal, in real life, but they don’t care.)
You have to be in a position of some authority to be an appeaser, and no one I am talking about is, except at their rally or in their academic department. Also, you have to expect something in exchange for concessions to be an appeaser, and despite the fantasy of the haters that those of us who treat Muslims as human beings are just doing it so they’ll kill us last—a very common fantasy among ‘the right’—that’s not what any of this is about.
This isn’t about appeasement, this is about taking political sides and certain human rights issues being left unaddressed as a result. Not unique to discussions of Islam by any means, nor to the left, it simply happens to impact my own work and activism in this particular area.
An example: when I was a baby feminist in college, there was a great deal of concern in liberal circles for the situation of women in Afghanistan. We circulated letters, and petitions, and were basically told that Afghanistan was a tribal society and there wasn’t a damn thing anyone could be expected to do about it.
Then, 9/11, invasion of Afghanistan, and suddenly the plight of the women under the Taliban was a MAJOR AMERICAN ISSUE, and Laura Bush was crying about it on the teevee. Retroactively, feminists were denounced—falsely—for not having cared about this issue. When we didn’t find Bin Laden, we were reminded that AT LEAST little girls could go to school now.
Now that the right is losing interest in Afghanistan, the level of concern for women and girls is going down, and I’m starting to hear ‘well, it’s a tribal society, not ready for democracy, etc.’ again.
| 498 |
Decatur Deb Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:36:54pm |
re: #493 Fozzie Bear
(this has always been the surest way to spot a looney fundamentalist in print form, imo.)
Only those of certain traditions. Lack of boob threads is the real give-away.
| 499 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:41:23pm |
| 501 |
wrenchwench Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:47:16pm |
re: #480 Killgore Trout
Glenn Beck Sponsored By Gold Merchant Promoting 9-11 Truther’s Anti-Fed Book
The book mentioned in that article,
The Creature From Jekyll Island: A Second Look at the Federal Reserve is an obscure book authored by G. Edward Griffin, and forms the basis of much of the conspiratorial fearmongering about the Federal Reserve
goes full-on Bilderberger and all-out anti Semitic in its conspiracies. Maybe that’s all redundant after saying “conspiratorial fearmongering about the Federal Reserve”, but I like to make a point of it.
Perfectly in line with Beck’s other anti Semitic stuff.
| 502 |
Talking Point Detective Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:48:14pm |
re: #497 SanFranciscoZionist
… and despite the fantasy of the haters that those of us who treat Muslims as human beings are just doing it so they’ll kill us last-
What I’ve heard is that I’m an appeaser (as are all lefties) because I don’t care if all of my family and friends die just as long as Democrats win elections - oh and because I “hate America first.”
We circulated letters, and petitions, and were basically told that Afghanistan was a tribal society and there wasn’t a damn thing anyone could be expected to do about it.
Yeah - I’ve engage with students on that issue (after showing them the movie “Osama” - I hope you’ve seen it). It’s one that really calls into question were people position themselves on moral relativism. Kind of the reverse of what happened after WW II when people realized that being Western was no guarantee of moral superiority to the “uncivilized,” we now have to grappble with the limits of moral relativism. I now find myself in interesting discussions with folks on the left who are absolute in their opposition to military intervention to oppose the Taliban (although I agree with them that the rational of eminent threat to the US is a bogus one). I’m definitely less absolutist about Afghanistan than I used to be.
Tough issues - no doubt.
| 503 |
Winny Spencer Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:49:24pm |
re: #476 Sergey Romanov
Re-read your #413 and we’ll talk about “uncalled for” and “hurtful”.
In order to demonstrate some kind of literacy, I complied and re-read my comment. I apologize for my inaccurate inference.
| 504 |
ryannon Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:51:13pm |
re: #333 000G
The Tweets expressing a lot of excitement for the self-organizing that Egyptians have managed so far.
I wonder if there will be any expressively anarchist factions active in Egypt after this Revolution is over.
BARRET BROWN!
| 505 |
Fozzie Bear Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:51:24pm |
re: #497 SanFranciscoZionist
Also, you have to expect something in exchange for concessions to be an appeaser, and despite the fantasy of the haters that those of us who treat Muslims as human beings are just doing it so they’ll kill us last—a very common fantasy among ‘the right’—that’s not what any of this is about.
I prefer to appease Cthulu so that I may be eaten first.
| 506 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:51:37pm |
Somebody upthread posted a list of folks to follow on twitter for Egypt news, and I thank you. I was watching all #Egypt tweets, and there were just too many to follow. The list was a good starting point and now that I’m just looking at those, it’s much easier to follow. So again, whoever you were (I’m too lazy to go look) - thanks.
| 507 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:52:54pm |
re: #504 ryannon
BARRET BROWN!
No, no, no organization in that quarter, no desire for orgnization, most expressly expressed there is no organization (those press releases just “appear” from the air, no one organizes or writes those) …
| 508 |
wrenchwench Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:54:00pm |
| 509 |
ryannon Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:54:32pm |
re: #456 sagehen
I’m betting they’re just thieves.
Or elements attempting to discredit the protesters.
| 511 |
ryannon Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:55:24pm |
re: #507 reine.de.tout
No, no, no organization in that quarter, no desire for orgnization, most expressly expressed there is no organization (those press releases just “appear” from the air, no one organizes or writes those) …
Look!
Shiny!!
| 512 |
Varek Raith Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:56:03pm |
re: #510 Fozzie Bear
I love this guy.
[Link: www.aolnews.com…]
I’d vote for him.
Image: 1292019225447.JPEG
| 513 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:56:04pm |
re: #508 wrenchwench
That was 000G.
How is that pronounced, anyway?
Just like it’s spelled, I would think!
ooog.
Or, oh-oh-oh-GEE.
Or, zero-zero-zero-GEE.
Hm. I see the problem.
| 514 |
Varek Raith Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:57:10pm |
re: #513 reine.de.tout
Just like it’s spelled, I would think!
ooog.
Or, oh-oh-oh-GEE.
Or, zero-zero-zero-GEE.
Hm. I see the problem.
ooog SMASH!
| 517 |
ryannon Sat, Jan 29, 2011 2:58:09pm |
re: #512 Varek Raith
I’d vote for him.
Image: 1292019225447.JPEG
Dude looks like The Creature From the Black Lagoon!
| 518 |
Fozzie Bear Sat, Jan 29, 2011 3:00:01pm |
Mubarek sealed his fate the second he shut down the internet.
You can’t deny that many people access to porn without consequences.
| 519 |
Fozzie Bear Sat, Jan 29, 2011 3:00:22pm |
re: #518 Fozzie Bear
(credit goes to a FB friend who posted this on his wall)
| 520 |
palomino Sat, Jan 29, 2011 3:02:32pm |
re: #130 Kid A
Some choice Hot Air posts. After reading these - ahem - thought-provoking comments, one must believe that it’s all Obama’s fault that Egypt is in flames right now.
5. Mubarak + Obama + poverty + religion = Where we are.
The Sunnis and Shias will unite and fight each other.
Whoever wins will then fight Europe and etc.
The 2008 election will be written about for thousands of years as the catalyst for world decline and eventual destruction.
What can you say besides these are the rantings of hysterical imbeciles?
If someone really and truly believes the portion in bold, then what’s the next (il)logical step? Remember that old thought experiment: it’s 1925 and you have the chance to kill Hitler, he hasn’t started wars or put anyone in camps yet, but you know what he’s gonna do…so do you kill him?
Same dynamic is working its way through quite a few pea brains these days WRT Obama. This is why the overheated violent rhetoric on the right is so dangerous. These morons think he’s as bad or worse than Hitler, and that he personally wants to destroy America. Again, what’s the next logical step of fanning these flames? This is what makes the Becks, Hannitys, et al. so toxic, reckless and potentially very dangerous.
| 521 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Jan 29, 2011 3:05:06pm |
Al-Jazeera - young people setting up roadblocks to protect neighborhoods from looters.
| 522 |
Fozzie Bear Sat, Jan 29, 2011 3:06:55pm |
re: #521 reine.de.tout
Al-Jazeera - young people setting up roadblocks to protect neighborhoods from looters.
This kind of story warms my heart. It’s what people do when there are no consequences that defines them.
It’s easy to be good when you get arrested for being bad. It’s more notable and laudable when people do good things just because it has to be done.
| 523 |
ryannon Sat, Jan 29, 2011 3:10:59pm |
AJ: Wikileaks cables suggests Suleiman is unlikely to favor a long presidency / does not favor Mubarak
| 524 |
ryannon Sat, Jan 29, 2011 3:15:54pm |
AJ: “In Suez, unions call for a general strike until Mubarak is replaced”
| 525 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 3:17:24pm |
| 526 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 3:24:20pm |
Cairo (DPA) - At least 19 private planes departed Saturday from a special terminal at Cairo airport, sources in the Egyptian capital said.The planes are said to be carrying some elite Egyptian figures, including top business people. Among those leaving were Naguib Sawaris, an Egyptian telecommunications tycoon.
The airport has seen intermittent cancellations of services, in part owing to a curfew imposed on Cairo.
| 528 |
ryannon Sat, Jan 29, 2011 3:33:01pm |
AJ: “Some eyewitnesses accuse police of supervising looters in Cairo”
| 529 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Jan 29, 2011 3:34:30pm |
re: #528 ryannon
AJ: “Some eyewitnesses accuse police of supervising looters in Cairo”
They’ve been saying on Stratfor that the police were involved in looting. They also say that the police are pretty demoralized after not being able to hold down the crowds, and are starting to pull out of areas.
Been some jailbreaks, per Stratfor, and resulting crime waves.
530 |
Usually refered to as anyways Sat, Jan 29, 2011 3:34:51pm |
re: #526 000G
[Link: www.monstersandcritics.com…]
Gday 000G,
Al Jazeera is reporting 19 business men, not planes.
No link as it was live on:
english.aljazeera.net
| 531 |
ryannon Sat, Jan 29, 2011 3:58:20pm |
re: #529 SanFranciscoZionist
They’ve been saying on Stratfor that the police were involved in looting. They also say that the police are pretty demoralized after not being able to hold down the crowds, and are starting to pull out of areas.
Been some jailbreaks, per Stratfor, and resulting crime waves.
You need to listen to Al-Jazz, according to whom, the police are demoralized after beating so many protesters to death a few days ago and now, having so many other protesters who’ve recognized them come after their asses for revenge. Also, the police disappeared last night (not tonight). Your sources are way behind the curve… :-)
| 532 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 3:58:47pm |
Newsnight - Maajid Nawaz on anti-government protests in Egypt
| 533 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jan 29, 2011 4:01:08pm |
re: #532 000G
28/01/2011 Newsnight
| 534 |
ryannon Sat, Jan 29, 2011 4:03:04pm |
re: #529 SanFranciscoZionist
They’ve been saying on Stratfor that the police were involved in looting. They also say that the police are pretty demoralized after not being able to hold down the crowds, and are starting to pull out of areas.
Been some jailbreaks, per Stratfor, and resulting crime waves.
(Cont.): Aided and abetted by the police, according to eyewitnesses interviewed on AJ….
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